Official 2008 MLB thread

[cookiva]

its here....

[Jerry!]

Mitch-ell!! Cut the bull**** and get down to it already.

[kane9321]

its time...right now

[Dark Donnie]

play by play please

[Dark Donnie]

Report: Trainer injected Clemens with steroid

Former trainer Brian McNamee said he injected Roger Clemens with the steroid winstrol, according to the Mitchell Report.

Dec. 13 - 1:58 pm et

[omid17]

damn i heard Gary Matthews was going to be on the list:(

[Jerry!]

That doesn't surprise me in the least.

[Dark Donnie]

I thought he was named for using HGH last year

[Dark Donnie]

Lo Duca

Paul Lo Duca-C-Nationals Dec. 13 - 2:00 pm et

Paul Lo Duca, Miguel Tejada, Rondell White, David Segui, Denny Neagle and Fernando Vina were among those to write personal checks to former Mets employee Kirk Radomski, reportedly for steroids, according to the Mitchell Report.

Related: Rondell White, Miguel Tejada

[omid17]

guys can someone tell me what happened with Palmero? i heard him say he never did steroids in court and i heard he was tested postive lol, is that true?

[Jerry!]

Lets call it the "He Gone" List instead of the Mitchell Report.

[omid17]

Lo Ducai seriously don't get it, why can't they stick with protein shakes?:o

[Dark Donnie]

HGH I believe, he more or less lied in front of th grand jury

[BlackLantern]

guys can someone tell me what happened with Palmero? i heard him say he never did steroids in court and i heard he was tested postive lol, is that true?

yes it is....hi everyone, new to this thread.....Let's Go Mets...this whole thing hurts because I really got back into baseball in the last 3 or 4 years

[omid17]

HGH I believe, he more or less lied in front of th grand juryso these players that were tested postive, what will happen to them?

[BlackLantern]

standard MLB policy suspends on a game basis.......i believe its 50 games for the first violation, 100 games for the second and gone for the season from the third...not to mention any discipline bought forth by the organization the player plays for

[cookiva]

reading thru the report is scary. I never know who i will read about next

[omid17]

standard MLB policy suspends on a game basis.......i believe its 50 games for the first violation, 100 games for the second and gone for the season from the third...not to mention any discipline bought forth by the organization the player plays for:wow:

[Dark Donnie]

so these players that were tested postive, what will happen to them?

From all reports I read if the steroid/HGH use occured after 2003, then they can be penalized by the league anything before that will just hurt the rep.

[Dark Donnie]

:wow:

I believe third violation is lifetime ban

[omid17]

i saw someone holding a sign saying " Ruth did it with hot dogs and beer" lol

[Showtime]

Is the report online yet?

[cookiva]

Is the report online yet?

http://www.wnbc.com/sports/14845845/detail.html

middle of the page in a PDF

[Showtime]

http://www.wnbc.com/sports/14845845/detail.html

middle of the page in a PDF

Thanks Cook.

[cookiva]

I skipped ahead to the Balco case, but Im going to go back when Im thru with it to read the beginning. This is crazy.

[cookiva]

Wow, guys, read the part about Benito Santiago. Its hilarious!!!!

[Dark Donnie]

This list is much much shorter and is missing Albert, Varitek, Damon, Brady Anderson

[Showtime]

Yeah I don't get it? That list seems much different? Seems as that list was not 100% legit.

[cookiva]

If anyone did steroids, its Brady Anderson. Im sorry, but the guy had one good year, then broke down. Sounds like steroids to me...

[Dark Donnie]

Exactly :down to Mitchell and his report

[Jerry!]

OK wait, we are all hating the Mitchell report now? Whats going on?

[Showtime]

I don't hate his report?

[Jerry!]

jesus get a mic out to these reporters asking a question. I can't hear **** from Shanghai.

[Dark Donnie]

I just don't like how they promised all these bigs names were going to come out and nothing. Clemens has been talked about for years as a roid head, same thing with alot of the other "big" names named.

[cookiva]

Hahahah, I cant wait till Fernando Vina is on Baseball Tonight next. I want to hear his roid using stories...

[Dark Donnie]

Clemens used steroids from 1998-2001

Former trainer Brian McNamee said he injected Roger Clemens with Winstrol about four times per week over a several-week period in 1998.

Clemens told McNamee the steroids "had a pretty good effect on him," during his time with the Blue Jays. The Yankees went on to hire McNamee, supposedly at Clemens' recommendation, and worked with much of the team. He was paid by both the team and Clemens at the time. Clemens allegedly quit using steroids for a while, but he resumed during the middle of the 2000 season. McNamee wasn't retained by the Yankees after the 2001 season, and McNamee has no knowledge whether Clemens continued to use after that time. Dec. 13 - 2:33 pm et

[Showtime]

I just don't like how they promised all these bigs names were going to come out and nothing. Clemens has been talked about for years as a roid head, same thing with alot of the other "big" names named.


Mo Vaughn!

[omid17]

so why the **** didn't Clemens stop his trainer?

[BlackLantern]

at least the problem is being addressed now....some of you sound like the report isnt valid unless there are big huge superstars on the list.

[cookiva]

at least the problem is being addressed now....some of you sound like the report isnt valid unless there are big huge superstars on the list.

Who said that?

[BlackLantern]

This list is much much shorter and is missing Albert, Varitek, Damon, Brady Anderson

^^this guy

[cookiva]

^^this guy


No, he is just saying that compared to the other list that we saw earlier, which Im nearly 100% positive is false. I really dont see Bagwell using.

[Dark Donnie]

at least the problem is being addressed now....some of you sound like the report isnt valid unless there are big huge superstars on the list.

I never said it was invalid....get your eyes check would yah.

First off I said the list was missing obvious names. Second I said MLB made it out like Mitchell's report would have all these high profile players, when all the big names were mostly common knowledge.

I like that MLB is being held accountable, it will be interesting to see players numbers next year after this and the better testing.

[Excel]

yes! no tek or pujols!

where can i read this *****??

[Excel]

Clemens used steroids from 1998-2001

Former trainer Brian McNamee said he injected Roger Clemens with Winstrol about four times per week over a several-week period in 1998.

Clemens told McNamee the steroids "had a pretty good effect on him," during his time with the Blue Jays. The Yankees went on to hire McNamee, supposedly at Clemens' recommendation, and worked with much of the team. He was paid by both the team and Clemens at the time. Clemens allegedly quit using steroids for a while, but he resumed during the middle of the 2000 season. McNamee wasn't retained by the Yankees after the 2001 season, and McNamee has no knowledge whether Clemens continued to use after that time. Dec. 13 - 2:33 pm et


Hmmm...so maybe dan duquette wasnt an idiot for thinking he was washed up after all???

[Jerry!]

:up::up: to the Big Hurt Frank Thomas for being basically the only active player NOT to be involved in heavy steroids controversy(Jason Giambi being the only other active player and we know why he met Mitchell) and going to Mitchell and trying to help out. He has always spoke out against steroids as far back as I can remember, glad to see he stuck to it when something is trying to get done now all these years later

[Dark Donnie]

yes! no tek or pujols!

where can i read this *****??

http://assets.espn.go.com/media/pdf/071213/mitchell_report.pdf

its only 409 pages

[Albiceleste]

Did anyone from the Dodger got caught with steroids?

[Jerry!]

Paul Lo Duca...HE GONE!

[Dark Donnie]

Paul Lo Duca, he was a member of the Mets at the time I believe.

Notable omission: Sammy Sosa

[cyborg ninja 14]

According to this report, it seems that Paul Lo Duca was a ringleader for getting guys like Eric Gagne and others on roids. At least he understands the concept of sharing.

[Albiceleste]

Im surprised at Lo Duca. did Nomar got caught?

[Showtime]

:up::up: to the Big Hurt Frank Thomas for being basically the only active player NOT to be involved in heavy steroids controversy(Jason Giambi being the only other active player and we know why he met Mitchell) and going to Mitchell and trying to help out. He has always spoke out against steroids as far back as I can remember, glad to see he stuck to it when something is trying to get done now all these years later

The Big Hurt's numbers are even more impressive.

[Jerry!]

There shouldn't be any more doubt (of which I don't there should have been in the first place) of Frank Thomas making the Hall of Fame now.

[FaT_tONle]

Roger Clemens is a disgrace to the game of baseball... 98... injected in the ass 4 to 6 times... look at those numbers with the Blue Jays.... then again in 99... then again right before the Mets series... go figure... EVERY TIME he beat Piazza with that inside fast ball... EVERY AT BAT you hear McCarver saying "Clemens just over powering Piazza"... what a joke... I never want to hear about this fraud again.

[cyborg ninja 14]

Im surprised at Lo Duca. did Nomar got caught?

It appears that he wasn't.

[Dark Donnie]

Did anyone from the Dodger got caught with steroids?

And Gagne when he had his miracle seasons

[Showtime]

Like last season...

[sinewave]

i'm sure there's a lot more players using that didn't make the list due to a lack of evidence. *cough*luis gonzalez*cough*

[Showtime]

Canseco tried to enter the press conference but was banned from entering. Looks like he was more right than wrong.

[Excel]

If this is true...we al may owe sammy sosa an apology.

Papi, Manny, Thomas, Delgado Griffey, Pujols, Howards, even Arod and a few others; I got new found respect for yall. Big time sluggers who kept some integrity.

Nice :up:

[Showtime]

If this is true...we al may owe sammy sosa an apology.

Papi, Manny, Thomas, Delgado Griffey, Pujols, Howards, even Arod and a few others; I got new found respect for yall. Big time sluggers who kept some integrity.

Nice :up:

I am not saying anything about those above, but just because somebody isn't in this investigation doesn't mean they haven't taken steroids. That being said, innocent until proven guilty.

[cyborg ninja 14]

If this is true...we al may owe sammy sosa an apology.

Papi, Manny, Thomas, Delgado Griffey, Pujols, Howards, even Arod and a few others; I got new found respect for yall. Big time sluggers who kept some integrity.

Nice :up:

Not yet anyway?

[Showtime]

What about McGwire not being on there? Nevermind Sosa?

Also what about that fake list? Some people are still thinking that list is real!

[Jerry!]

If this is true...we al may owe sammy sosa an apology.

Papi, Manny, Thomas, Delgado Griffey, Pujols, Howards, even Arod and a few others; I got new found respect for yall. Big time sluggers who kept some integrity.

Nice :up:

I don't think we owe Sosa an apology. I mean, come on. Him and McGuire no one should have doubt by now.

As for the players you listed, I agree. Their numbers are even more impressive in light of everything that has happened in the era they played. I remember in Chicago it was always a kind of Thomas vs. Sosa argument that went on years ago and by 1998 it looked as if Sosa had sealed it. Funny how things turned out in the end. Frank Thomas FTW.

[Jerry!]

edit.

[The Incredible Hulk]

The problem with this list, and Mitchell even admitted it, is that its not all inclusive. Its not a list of everyone who took steroids, just everyone they were able to pin it on through this Randomsky guy with the Mets and the McNamee trainer from the Yankees. So just becuase a guy wasnt on Mitchell's list, doesnt mean he's absolved of steroid speculation. I dont see why anyone would celebrate "their guy" not being on it? Its only one branch of the problem. I like guys like Frank Thomas and Pujols, but they're far from being beyond speculation at this point.

Another thing to consider is that unlike with that dink LoDuca, there is no papertrail for Clemens and others. Its solely the testimony of one man. Is he credible? Does hae have an axe to grind? A lot of questions here. I'll be interested to see what Clemens response to this is. And to that end Andy Pettitte as well since he allegedley got into it through Clemens, so if Clemens denies the accusations and Pettitte doesnt, Clemens is screwed.

[Spidey-Bat]

Paul Lo Duca, he was a member of the Mets at the time I believe.

Notable omission: Sammy Sosa

Lo Duca roided with the Dodgers in 2001.

[Jerry!]

The problem with this list, and Mitchell even admitted it, is that its not all inclusive. Its not a list of everyone who took steroids, just everyone they were able to pin it on through this Randomsky guy with the Mets and the McNamee trainer from the Yankees. So just becuase a guy wasnt on Mitchell's list, doesnt mean he's absolved of steroid speculation. I dont see why anyone would celebrate "their guy" not being on it? Its only one branch of the problem. I like guys like Frank Thomas and Pujols, but they're far from being beyond speculation at this point.

Another thing to consider is that unlike with that dink LoDuca, there is no papertrail for Clemens and others. Its solely the testimony of one man. Is he credible? Does hae have an axe to grind? A lot of questions here. I'll be interested to see what Clemens response to this is. And to that end Andy Pettitte as well since he allegedley got into it through Clemens, so if Clemens denies the accusations and Pettitte doesnt, Clemens is screwed.

I really really think you can take Frank Thomas out of being under suspicion. Not only was he active and vocal in this discussion about being against steroids for years before any kind of real rumblings were going around he was the only active player to actually go to Mitchell voluntarily, not as a part of any kind of ultimatum as Giambi was or the Mets and Yankees guys were.

[Jerry!]

edit

[Spidey-Bat]

3 guys were granted immunity and not revealed. I'm willing to be Albert Pujols is one of them. His personal trainer was implicated.

[Jerry!]

edit.

[Showtime]

3 guys were granted immunity and not revealed. I'm willing to be Albert Pujols is one of them. His personal trainer was implicated.

Interesting.

[rdh007]

3 guys were granted immunity and not revealed. I'm willing to be Albert Pujols is one of them. His personal trainer was implicated.
This smacks of truth.

Oh, and Clemens is best off if he holds a press conference tomorrow to come clean. Some tears would help.

[Spidey-Bat]

Yankees should forfeit the 2000 trophy to the Mets. Every Yankee on that team was juiced. Except El Duque who was the only starter the Mets beat.

[Showtime]

Yankees should forfeit the 2000 trophy to the Mets. Every Yankee on that team was juiced. Except El Duque who was the only starter the Mets beat.

Now that is just kooky talk.

[cookiva]

I had to double check it, and DAMN! Bret Boone wasnt on the list...

[Jerry!]

Now that is just kooky talk.

I'm hoping it was just a joke.

[Spidey-Bat]

I was joking

[Dark Donnie]

Roger Clemens-S-Yankees Dec. 13 - 5:57 pm et

Agent Randy Hendricks sent out a statement saying Roger Clemens "vehemently denies allegations in the Mitchell Report that he used performance-enhancing steroids."

Hendricks's release says that Clemens "is outraged that his name is included in the report based on uncorroborated allegations of a troubled man threatened with federal criminal prosecution."
Source: Washington Post

[BlackLantern]

Roger Clemens-S-Yankees Dec. 13 - 5:57 pm et

Agent Randy Hendricks sent out a statement saying Roger Clemens "vehemently denies allegations in the Mitchell Report that he used performance-enhancing steroids."

Hendricks's release says that Clemens "is outraged that his name is included in the report based on uncorroborated allegations of a troubled man threatened with federal criminal prosecution."
Source: Washington Post

hmm....I am drawn between believing Roger Clemens, an athlete as opposed to a former Senator who is trying to broker peace deals in northern Ireland and numerous acheivments in public service......its a toughie....

[Showtime]

Roger Clemens-S-Yankees Dec. 13 - 5:57 pm et

Agent Randy Hendricks sent out a statement saying Roger Clemens "vehemently denies allegations in the Mitchell Report that he used performance-enhancing steroids."

Hendricks's release says that Clemens "is outraged that his name is included in the report based on uncorroborated allegations of a troubled man threatened with federal criminal prosecution."
Source: Washington Post

What else can he say. Is there evidence of Clemens signing checks?

[FaT_tONle]

Yankees should forfeit the 2000 trophy to the Mets. Every Yankee on that team was juiced. Except El Duque who was the only starter the Mets beat.

No wonder Denny freakin Neagle pitched the game of his life game 4... wasn't he on the list too? Man... that's two freaking starters that went three games... look I'll be objective unlike you... the Yankees were clearly the better team that series... and the Mets shot themselves in the ass themselves so many times (no pun intended)... but it really makes you wonder how things may have turned out otherwise.

[Spidey-Bat]

I was kidding. I wouldn't want it. It wouldn't feel right. Plus I rather the Yankees have the shame of winning a WS with 9 juicers.

[FaT_tONle]

What else can he say. Is there evidence of Clemens signing checks?

In the next couple of days we'll hear Pettite and Clemens call this guy out as a fraud. You know... this may turn into a he said she said... I think in time people may even question whether the quotes were even true. Watch that Fat ass Clemens get off easy... of course most won't believe Roger at this point... but some will... more than Bonds I'll tell you that much... not to play the race card but it could never be more obvious if this happens to be the case.

[FaT_tONle]

I was kidding. I wouldn't want it. It wouldn't feel right. Plus I rather the Yankees have the shame of winning a WS with 9 juicers.

9? Who am I missing... Pettite only started in 01...

Stanton
Justice
Neagle
Knoublach
Clemens

That's about it... Yanks would have won the series in six/seven games if those guys weren't juicing probably...

[Dark Donnie]

What else can he say. Is there evidence of Clemens signing checks?

Nope, which is why a good amount of the people accused will never serve a suspension. Most of the evidence is circumstantial. Another reason why Mitchell suggested no one be punished at this time.

[Showtime]

Nope, which is why a good amount of the people accused will never serve a suspension. Most of the evidence is circumstantial. Another reason why Mitchell suggested no one be punished at this time.

I wonder what will happen going forward now.

[Showtime]

In the next couple of days we'll hear Pettite and Clemens call this guy out as a fraud. You know... this may turn into a he said she said... I think in time people may even question whether the quotes were even true. Watch that Fat ass Clemens get off easy... of course most won't believe Roger at this point... but some will... more than Bonds I'll tell you that much... not to play the race card but it could never be more obvious if this happens to be the case.

He already made a statement through his agents. See above.

[bored]

Wally f'ing Joyner is on there. I think a little part of my childhood just died.

[NewYorkSpider]

I'm very surprised that we didn't see Sosa and McGwire's names on there. I wasn't surprised to see Clemens name on there.

[NewYorkSpider]

9? Who am I missing... Pettite only started in 01...

Stanton
Justice
Neagle
Knoublach
Clemens

That's about it... Yanks would have won the series in six/seven games if those guys weren't juicing probably...

Justice, Stanton and Knoblauch acquired them after the 2000 World Series.

[FaT_tONle]

Justice, Stanton and Knoblauch acquired them after the 2000 World Series.

That championship is still tainted in my book... but the ol' * next to it... just like the Pats three Superbowls...

[NewYorkSpider]

That championship is still tainted in my book... but the ol' * next to it... just like the Pats three Superbowls...

So you think the rest of them should be punished for other people's stupid mistakes? That's ridiculous IMO.

[FaT_tONle]

So you think the rest of them should be punished for other people's stupid mistakes? That's ridiculous IMO.

Sometimes I feel I've got to...
Cheat my way I've got to...
Juice my Way
All to the World Series into the record books
So inject me with that Juice
and let me win
my Championships and get me some' (WHHHHOOOAAAAAAA)


Tainted rings... (Whoah Whoah Whoah Whoah) Tainted rings

[NewYorkSpider]

That must be the jealousy kicking in huh?

[Fran]

You can't re-write history. The rings are there, move on.

[FaT_tONle]

That must be the jealousy kicking in huh?

The one thing that all cheaters have in common... and that's that they all got caught... and the fact is you have a cheater in Belicheck that got caught... and if he never wins another Superbowl he'll never get the credit for being one of the greatest... and now the same applies to Clemens... a guy who was instrumental in two of those four championships. You know a lot of things merit an * next to it... Mets World Series Champs 1986*... "ground ball gets by Buckner"... everything has its own story... but when you do things that question the integrity of the sport... its never more obvious... Yanks World Series Champs 2000*... "Juiced up Clemens starts two games."

[Fran]

Is Pujols on this list or not (haven't paid attention much to it)?

If so, I wanna put an asterisk next to the Cardinals' 2006 World Series win. Since I guess we're doing that :up:

[NewYorkSpider]

Yanks World Series Champs 2000*... "Juiced up Clemens starts two games."

I would still put an * next to his name, not the team.

[Spidey-Bat]

Is Pujols on this list or not (haven't paid attention much to it)?

If so, I wanna put an asterisk next to the Cardinals' 2006 World Series win. Since I guess we're doing that :up:

Pujols' personal trainer is mentioned. The report mentions someone who will not or cannot be named. Pujols could be one. Ivan Rodriguez probably is.

[Fran]

I doubt Pudge has juiced during his time with the Tigers. I know at least not during Leyland's regime.

[Spidey-Bat]

He definitely did with the Rangers. Probably the Marlins, too.

[FaT_tONle]

You guys are making too much out of my statements. The point I am trying to make is that something... ANYTHING... however insignificant... ALWAYS has an impact on something else... at least two things are inseparable at any time. Its just a matter of how those two things are compared to everything else pertaining to it. The fact is... you had players on that team that POSSIBLY played with a distinct competitive advantage that helped them win a championship... its just a matter of relativity... how big to people want to make that asterisk. Whether to put one there... or just let it go as something insignificant. All I am saying is that I think there is something there... I never said lets strip the accomplishments of that team... in the end all of these things cancel out for the most part. But Baseball fans... especially Met fans... will entice their imaginations and let themselves wonder... not that that ever means anything... but I guess I am just stating the obvious anyways.

[Fran]

Definitely at those two stops. I wouldn't doubt if he did before Leyland in Detroit, because Trammell never had that team together.

[NewYorkSpider]

You guys are making too much out of my statements. The point I am trying to make is that something... ANYTHING... however insignificant... ALWAYS has an impact on something else... at least two things are inseparable at any time. Its just a matter of how those two things are compared to everything else pertaining to it. The fact is... you had players on that team that POSSIBLY played with a distinct competitive advantage that helped them win a championship... its just a matter of relativity... how big to people want to make that asterisk. Whether to put one there... or just let it go as something insignificant. All I am saying is that I think there is something there... I never said lets strip the accomplishments of that team... in the end all of these things cancel out for the most part. But Baseball fans... especially Met fans... will entice their imaginations and let themselves wonder... not that that ever means anything... but I guess I am just stating the obvious anyways.

Well, if we are going to put an asterisk next to the 2000 Yankees, then we might as well put it on any team(championships or not) that had a player using HGH or any steroid. That advantage could have helped them win multiple games on their way to division crown or a pennant.

[Addendum]

The one thing that all cheaters have in common... and that's that they all got caught... and the fact is you have a cheater in Belicheck that got caught...

The Jets may have done it first (http://www.newsday.com/sports/football/jets/ny-spjets1212,0,3978329.story) :ninja:

[Showtime]

just like the Pats three Superbowls...

That is just ridiculousness. Stop drinking the Mel Gibson juice.

[Showtime]

The one thing that all cheaters have in common... and that's that they all got caught... and the fact is you have a cheater in Belicheck that got caught... and if he never wins another Superbowl he'll never get the credit for being one of the greatest. Yanks World Series Champs 2000*... "Juiced up Clemens starts two games."

The Patriots are even better now they they have been caught "cheating". They could go undefeated this year, then what are they going to say? Belichick was using Jedi Mind tricks?

In regards to the Yankees, they were a dynasty and were winning championships before Roger even arrived on the scene.

[FaT_tONle]

The Patriots are even better now they they have been caught "cheating". They could go undefeated this year, then what are they going to say? Belichick was using Jedi Mind tricks?

In regards to the Yankees, they were a dynasty and were winning championships before Roger even arrived on the scene.

WHat the heck does the Pats team this year have to do with their three championships? Belicheck probably cheated.... that's all there is too it. But I already said before the Pats have to win it this year and pretty much go 19-0... have they done that yet? Talk to me if they do and I'll have a different answer as to where I stack Bill on the coaching pedestal.

[FaT_tONle]

Well, if we are going to put an asterisk next to the 2000 Yankees, then we might as well put it on any team(championships or not) that had a player using HGH or any steroid. That advantage could have helped them win multiple games on their way to division crown or a pennant.

You just never know don't you... :wow:

[Fran]

Take away the Pats' rings!!!!!!!!!!! :up::up::up::up::up::up::up:

[Jerry!]

Please tell me you are just running a more elaborate joke of Spidey-Bat's post. I really really hope you don't honestly think that the thing to do is put an asterisk next to the entire Yankees teams that won the World Series with Clemens juiced. As for the Patriots, thats just wishful thinking bull****. Belichick will still go down as one of the best ever no matter what the outcome of this season, I can see that and I'm no bandwagon fan.

[Fran]

WHat the heck does the Pats team this year have to do with their three championships? Belicheck probably cheated.... that's all there is too it. But I already said before the Pats have to win it this year and pretty much go 19-0... have they done that yet? Talk to me if they do and I'll have a different answer as to where I stack Bill on the coaching pedestal.

Dude, I'm a Rams fan. I hate Belichick. I hate the Patriots.

But I seriously doubt that he cheated his way to get the Super Bowl wins. Sure, he was caught cheating during the opening Jets game this year, but that was one game.

If they had to forfeit that game, and went 15-1, would that be justice to you? Or would you think that they used that info to get an advantage in the rest of their games? :huh:

He's a damn good coach, the best one around today. He's going to the Hall of Fame, no matter this "videogate" conspiracy.

It's done with. He did it for one proven game. Deal with it. No asterisk.

[NewYorkSpider]

You just never know don't you... :wow:

I know if we are going by your set of circumstances, then that's what should be done.

[Showtime]

WHat the heck does the Pats team this year have to do with their three championships? Belicheck probably cheated.... that's all there is too it. But I already said before the Pats have to win it this year and pretty much go 19-0... have they done that yet? Talk to me if they do and I'll have a different answer as to where I stack Bill on the coaching pedestal.

Probably? Good thing you're not a lawyer or a judge, you'd be laughed out of court. That's all there is to it.

The Patriots have to go 19-0 to please you, not the general public. Maybe you need to step off a pedestal?

I guess you won't be tuning into ESPN's coverage of his enshrinement speech then?

[Dodger]

Paul Lo Duca makes sense. Career minor leaguer who then has a second career in his 30's. For a catcher, that's suspicious. Well whatever, I never liked him that much. But Eric. :( Say it aint so Eric. But I heard that he did not juice until August 2004, that's just about the time his streak was ending, still does not change anything. But it's not like we won anything with them.....and they are not on the team. So whatever.


I'm not susprised to see Raul Mondesi on there. F him. He was a drunk looser. I had fears of kirk gibson being on there. Thanks god he was not on there.

[cyborg ninja 14]

Bill Plaschke finally admits that Paul "The stat geek" Depodesta wasn't a complete failure after all.

"And, the following summer, give new boss Paul DePodesta credit for trading Lo Duca to the Florida Marlins.

I wrote that sending Lo Duca out during the middle of a pennant race was one of the worst trades in team history. If DePodesta made the trade based on steroid use, then I stand corrected.

Judging from his track record here, the longer Lo Duca remained with the team, the more players would have been on the juice.

The sour history of DePodesta's reign also may have to be somewhat rewritten."

[Dodger]

Bill Plaschke finally admits that Paul "The stat geek" Depodesta wasn't a complete failure after all.

"And, the following summer, give new boss Paul DePodesta credit for trading Lo Duca to the Florida Marlins.

I wrote that sending Lo Duca out during the middle of a pennant race was one of the worst trades in team history. If DePodesta made the trade based on steroid use, then I stand corrected.

Judging from his track record here, the longer Lo Duca remained with the team, the more players would have been on the juice.

The sour history of DePodesta's reign also may have to be somewhat rewritten."


He's giving Depo to much credit. Although, had Shawn Green, Odalis Perez, Ceaser Izturis, even Adrian Beltre gotten some of that juice we probably would of won something! :cmad: Selfish paulie!

[FaT_tONle]

Dude, I'm a Rams fan. I hate Belichick. I hate the Patriots.

But I seriously doubt that he cheated his way to get the Super Bowl wins. Sure, he was caught cheating during the opening Jets game this year, but that was one game.

If they had to forfeit that game, and went 15-1, would that be justice to you? Or would you think that they used that info to get an advantage in the rest of their games? :huh:

He's a damn good coach, the best one around today. He's going to the Hall of Fame, no matter this "videogate" conspiracy.

It's done with. He did it for one proven game. Deal with it. No asterisk.

They did play the Rams in the regular season in 01... they probably did it in that game. Hey its all speculation but people are going to believe what they want to believe. Knowing Bill (not personally but still), it is more than obvious to me he will go to any means to win football games... some people just have more of that fire under them than others. Again I am not saying strip them of the titles... I just think it taints his legacy... people aren't going to put him with Lombardi... I don't see why they'd put him ahead of Gibbs if he never wins it again. Heck even Parcells, Knoll, etc. Not the way things stand as of now.

[FaT_tONle]

Probably? Good thing you're not a lawyer or a judge, you'd be laughed out of court. That's all there is to it.

The Patriots have to go 19-0 to please you, not the general public. Maybe you need to step off a pedestal?

I guess you won't be tuning into ESPN's coverage of his enshrinement speech then?

First of all I am not trying to convince anyone in a court of law... its all subjective in this case... again if the Pats go 19-0... heck I'll give you 17-2 (still win the Superbowl nonetheless)... but skeptics will say he had one of the most talented team ever... so people will always go back to that first loss if there is one. Nevertheless, winning the Superbowl no matter how will definitely make people forget about Spygate more, so we agree. Look your a Pats fan right? And you hear people talking about Bill as one of the greatest ever. Don't you agree he needs one more to get him up there? That's all I am saying. Plus the fact that if he doesn't win again... the Spygate will ALWAYS take some luster away from SOME when they look back at those titles. Finally, why the hell would I waste my time watching Belicheck's HOF speech. Its not like the guy will have anything interesting to say.

[Superman79]

First of all I am not trying to convince anyone in a court of law... its all subjective in this case... again if the Pats go 19-0... heck I'll give you 17-2 (still win the Superbowl nonetheless)... but skeptics will say he had one of the most talented team ever... so people will always go back to that first loss if there is one. Nevertheless, winning the Superbowl no matter how will definitely make people forget about Spygate more. And why the hell would I waste my time watching Belicheck's HOF speech. Its not like the guy will have anything interesting to say.

Isn't this supposed to be a baseball thread??? :huh:

[FaT_tONle]

Isn't this supposed to be a baseball thread??? :huh:

Yeah it happens.. sort of came up... feel free to take it to the NFL thread Showtime. Just the whole negativity in sports these days... all we hear about is Spygate... NFL/Baseball players being prosecuted... steroids in baseball... Marion Jones and Floyd Landis... thats the only reason why a clumped two things together that have nothing to do with one another.

[rdh007]

Take away the Pats' rings!!!!!!!!!!! :up::up::up::up::up::up:
If we're going back in time, perhaps a removal of MSU's rings from the Mandarich era???

;) Only joking, Percy Snow and Andre Rison pwned.

[sinewave]

man, the mitchell report makes pedro martinez's performance between '97 and '02 look even more impressive (especially in '99 and '00) if he wasn't juicing but a ton of the hitters he faced were. he's the best pitcher in history, in my opinion.

[Superman79]

man, the mitchell report makes pedro martinez's performance between '97 and '02 look even more impressive (especially in '99 and '00) if he wasn't juicing but a ton of the hitters he faced were. he's the best pitcher in history, in my opinion.

Hoo-ah :up: :up:

If nothing else he's at least top 3

[Showtime]

Maybe this has sealed Pedro's spot in the HOF.

[sinewave]

Maybe this has sealed Pedro's spot in the HOF.

i think he was already there, but this definitely helps.

[Showtime]

i think he was already there, but this definitely helps.

That's why I said sealed. :csad:

[Spidey-Bat]

man, the mitchell report makes pedro martinez's performance between '97 and '02 look even more impressive (especially in '99 and '00) if he wasn't juicing but a ton of the hitters he faced were. he's the best pitcher in history, in my opinion.

Walter Johnson had the best overall career. Pedro had the best peak.

[Showtime]

Walter Johnson had the best overall career. Pedro had the best peak.

I think Pedro and Koufax are one-two in regards to dominant career peaks.

[Fran]

Pedro = Best pitcher in history? ...

[Spidey-Bat]

I think Pedro and Koufax are one-two in regards to dominant career peaks.

I favor Pedro over Koufax. Lower mound, hitter's park, DH, better hitters.

[Showtime]

I favor Pedro over Koufax. Lower mound, hitter's park, DH, better hitters.

I agree.

[sinewave]

Pedro = Best pitcher in history? ...

yep.

I favor Pedro over Koufax. Lower mound, hitter's park, DH, better hitters.

that, plus hitters are stronger (juiced or not), faster and have better technology and medical care available to them today. koufax would probably be league average or a little better if he had to pitch to the kind of hitters pedro faced during his prime.

[Fran]

Justin Verlander, I hope he never juices. I want him to be a legend :csad:

[Showtime]

Justin Verlander, I hope he never juices. I want him to be a legend :csad:

He's got a long way to go. He can do it.

[Fran]

He's got the stuff to do it. He seems pretty good, health-wise.

[Jerry!]

man, the mitchell report makes pedro martinez's performance between '97 and '02 look even more impressive (especially in '99 and '00) if he wasn't juicing but a ton of the hitters he faced were. he's the best pitcher in history, in my opinion.

I think in the end it will help a lot of hitters and pitchers who are right now on the cusp of getting in, but not quite there. Jim Thome comes to mind who last season hit his 500th homerun but there was still doubt on whether or not he deserves to be in the Hall.

[sinewave]

I think in the end it will help a lot of hitters and pitchers who are right now on the cusp of getting in, but not quite there. Jim Thome comes to mind who last season hit his 500th homerun but there was still doubt on whether or not he deserves to be in the Hall.

yeah, thome's a fringe HOFer for me, but i'm pulling for him. i know you've gotta be jazzed about the big hurt. that dude deserves it.

[Jerry!]

Schilling really, really needs to shut up. Really.

[BlackLantern]

I recommend a 15 year moratorium on the Hall of Fame....

[sinewave]

Schilling really, really needs to shut up. Really.

what'd the jackass say now?

[Jerry!]

He was complaining about how much better his career numbers would have been if there was an even playing field without steroids, among other things.

Daniel Haren was just traded to the D'Backs.

[sinewave]

He was complaining about how much better his career numbers would have been if there was an even playing field.

Daniel Haren was just traded to the D'Backs.

wow and wow! who'd the a's get for him?

[Jerry!]

Bunch of minor league pitchers and a few minor league outfielders. The D'Backs also got Connor Robertson in the deal.

[Spidey-Bat]

koufax would probably be league average or a little better if he had to pitch to the kind of hitters pedro faced during his prime.

You are REALLY underestimating Sandy Koufax.



As for the Haren trade, I finally like a deal. D'Backs gave up quite a bit but they get a very good pitcher in return they have control for a couple years. Beane would never allow himself to be robbed.

[X-Rated]

I knew it, I just knew it. If anyone deserves an * by his name, it's Roger "Steroids" Clemens.

[Jerry!]

Then Bonds gets one as well. If anything, you have to treat them the same right now. Clemens' accomplishments at his position are just as great as Bonds' at his. If you are going to completely believe the Mitchell Report, then you have to treat Bonds and Clemens the same.

[Spidey-Bat]

I knew it, I just knew it. If anyone deserves an * by his name, it's Roger "Steroids" Clemens.

Says the guy who was deep-throating Bonds all summer.

[sinewave]

You are REALLY underestimating Sandy Koufax.

maybe a bit, but supposedly there's a big difference in talent between his era and the modern one.

[X-Rated]

Then Bonds gets one as well. If anything, you have to treat them the same right now. Clemens' accomplishments at his position are just as great as Bonds' at his. If you are going to completely believe the Mitchell Report, then you have to treat Bonds and Clemens the same.

No, that is not true. It was reported on ESPN that the Mitchell Report collaborates Bonds story that he unknowingly took it. The report said that Bonds took the cream unknowingly and was later told that it was roids, that he then immediately stop using. Bonds said his trainer gave him the cream to him to help his arthritis knees(which has nothing to do with performance inhancing or swing a bat, eye-coordination, upper body strenth, talent, skills, etc). Also that Bonds may have used it for less than a season.

Clemens on the otherhand used it with intent, on bettering and furthering his carrer, for numerous of years. Clemens purposely CHEATED. Bond did it unknowingly and stop immediately after revelation of it. Clemens kept on and on and on using it. Clemens use it during his greatest years. Bonds was already being called the greatest to ever play the game long before he unknowingly to the cream.

Bonds = HOF
Clemens = *

[cyborg ninja 14]

He was complaining about how much better his career numbers would have been if there was an even playing field without steroids, among other things.

Daniel Haren was just traded to the D'Backs.

Is it too early to start the "Cy Haren!" chants?:woot: I love the 1-2 AZ has with him along with Webb.

[X-Rated]

Watch that Fat ass Clemens get off easy... of course most won't believe Roger at this point... but some will... more than Bonds I'll tell you that much... not to play the race card but it could never be more obvious if this happens to be the case.

Couldn't agree more

[Spidey-Bat]

Is it too early to start the "Cy Haren!" chants?:woot: I love the 1-2 AZ has with him along with Webb.

It is. Johan Santana might be coming to the league.

[Jerry!]

No, that is not true. It was reported on ESPN that the Mitchell Report collaborates Bonds story that he unknowingly took it. The report said that Bonds took the cream unknowingly and was later told that it was roids, that he then immediately stop using. Bonds said his trainer gave him the cream to him to help his arthritis knees(which has nothing to do with performance inhancing or swing a bat, eye-coordination, upper body strenth, talent, skills, etc). Also that Bonds may have used it for less than a season.

Clemens on the otherhand used it with intent, on bettering and furthering his carrer, for numerous of years. Clemens purposely CHEATED. Bond did it unknowingly and stop immediately after revelation of it. Clemens kept on and on and on using it. Clemens use it during his greatest years. Bonds was already being called the greatest to ever play the game long before he unknowingly to the cream.

Bonds = HOF
Clemens = *

You honestly buy that bull**** about him not knowing? He might go to jail for lying about that. He got pissed about the whole Sammy/ McGuire monster spectacle and started using. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to go into the Hall, but pretty much whatever happens with him, obviously besides the whole perjury indictment, should happen with Clemens when it comes to him being inducted into the Hall.

[X-Rated]

You honestly buy that bull**** about him not knowing? He might go to jail for lying about that. He got pissed about the whole Sammy/ McGuire monster spectacle and started using. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to go into the Hall, but pretty much whatever happens with him, obviously besides the whole perjury indictment, should happen with Clemens when it comes to him being inducted into the Hall.

Well lets see, the Mitchell Report as reported by ESPN collaborates Bonds Statement; however, you are intent on believing rumors that he was pissed about Sosa & McGuire. Sounds to me you are the one believeing BS. You are letting you bias convince you of that, much like the sports analyst who dislike and are bias against Bonds.

The fact of the matter, Bonds story is collaborated by Mitchell Report. Your belief is collaborated by what? Bonds has said countless of times, there were no jeolousy towards Sosa & McGuire. So believe what you want to believe. I still say...

Bonds = HOF
Clemens = *

I will add, that this is why Bonds is not fearing perjury charges. He knows it trump up to defame his accomplishments.

[BlackLantern]

I see it this way....Mitchell and his firm were hired to conduct an investigation. I see no reason for them to lie or fabricate any of their findings. Its not like they are the press or working for the MLB office.

[Spidey-Bat]

The Commissioner hired them.

I agree though, they have no reason to lie. They have every reason not to because any player could sue them for libel.

[BlackLantern]

I meant they arent employees of MLB...I believe the report because there is really no reason not to. think about it.....out of the 500 individuals they asked to interview only 86 agreed to.....this is a big problem and its more than steroids and HGH....its a mindset that needs to be changed...

[Spidey-Bat]

Here's a good site that has all the trades from the past 6 years and an analysis of them.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/trades07.html

[cyborg ninja 14]

It is. Johan Santana might be coming to the league.

Bummer(for me):csad: Speaking of which, what is the status of Santana to the Mets?

[Spidey-Bat]

Bummer(for me):csad: Speaking of which, what is the status of Santana to the Mets?

My Magic 8 Ball put it best, "Outlook Not So Good"

[BlackLantern]

as a mets fan, it would be nice to have Santana, but the Mets would have to give up way too much.....apparently one of the earlier proposals included David Wright......**** that......Wright isnt going anywhere

[Spidey-Bat]

Wright was never part of a deal; Reyes was. If what I heard was true, Twins said they'd take Carlos Gomez, Fernando Martinez, and 3 pitching prospects (my guess is Humber, Mulvey, and Guerra). Mets don't want to trade Gomez and Martinez in the same deal. I'd say **** that idea and trade them all. They'll never have the impact that Santana currently does.

[BlackLantern]

Pelfrey I think was another name mentioned with those pitchers.....and I was mistaken, but both reyes and wright are Mets and it would probably take a lot for either of them to be traded.

[Kingfish]

Padres reportedly acquire Jim Edmonds for a no-name prospect.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071214&content_id=2326990&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

[Showtime]

Padres reportedly acquire Jim Edmonds for a no-name prospect.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071214&content_id=2326990&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071214&content_id=2326990&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp)

I didn't even know Edmonds was still playing.

[Kingfish]

I didn't even know Edmonds was still playing.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o256/barzisdope/JimEdmonds.jpg

yet another awkward situation for jimmy...

[Dodger]

My Magic 8 Ball put it best, "Outlook Not So Good"


What ever happen to the Berdad trade?

Padres reportedly acquire Jim Edmonds for a no-name prospect.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071214&content_id=2326990&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

Typical Padres move. Picking up talent a couple years too late.

[Kingfish]

Typical Padres move. Picking up talent a couple years too late.

perhaps, but the prospect they give up wasn't even ranked in their top ten according to baseball america.

[Showtime]

What do you think about Edmonds' chance for the HOF?

[Dodger]

perhaps, but the prospect they give up wasn't even ranked in their top ten according to baseball america.

Maybe St Louis wanted to just dump him?

What do you think about Edmonds' chance for the HOF?

IMO. No. Numbers are not good enough but maybe his defense can be enough to get him in.

[Kingfish]

What do you think about Edmonds' chance for the HOF?

i'd say his chances aren't great. he'll probably be a borderline candidate just on the outside when its all said and done.

now if he can somehow get the 38 home runs he needs to get to 400 (especially playing his home games in Petco), that combined with his 8 gold gloves in 9 years across both leagues would make him a deserving candidate in my opinion.

[Showtime]

That is what I was thinking, 400 would be a magic number, which would give him a slim chance.

[Kingfish]

That is what I was thinking, 400 would be a magic number, which would give him a slim chance.

a big problem for him would be the good chance that he and griffey should be eligible about the same time. obviously griffey gets in, and all of edmonds accomplishments are overshadowed by griffey. except his ring of course.

[Showtime]

and his bruises...

[Ben Urich]

Junior Griffey wasn't in that report, was he?

[Kingfish]

dont believe so

[YsoSerious]

I don't think Griffey is involved since he has been plagued by his reoccurring injuries and doesn't appear to have bulked up any over the years. I respect him a great deal for this.Too bad this could have an effect on future hall of fame voting.Because of race and personality issues I could honestly see Clemens getting in and Bonds not and that would be the biggest travesty of all.Maybe they need a steroid wing in the hall of fame for people who are on the list or found out about later.I'm glad to see Clemens outed.Maybe now he'll stay retired.

[X-Rated]

Typical Padres move. Picking up talent a couple years too late.

As a Padre fan and a Dodger hater, I'm affraid I have to agree with you. :csad:

[Spidey-Bat]

What ever happen to the Berdad trade?

Died. Orioles increased their price to a ridiculous amount.

[Spidey-Bat]

Dodgers signed Kuroda. 3 years, between $36M-$40M.

[DarthRekal]

Dodgers signed Kuroda. 3 years, between $36M-$40M.
:up:

[Excel]

praise da lord big papi aint on the list :D :D :D

[Dodger]

Died. Orioles increased their price to a ridiculous amount.

Sucks dude. :down:


Dodgers signed Kuroda. 3 years, between $36M-$40M.

Hmmm....Nice. :up:

We filled our two biggest needs (power bat, starting pitching) without giving up the kids. That's good. :up:.

He's no Haren that's for sure. But The Dodgers 1-4 have pretty solid pitching. If schmidt, through some miracle act of god can recover from his torn lambrum (REALLY doubtful) we're solid 1 through 5.

[Dodger]

As a Padre fan and a Dodger hater, I'm affraid I have to agree with you. :csad:

Your a Padre fan? :wow:

There are many a shades to you Mr. X-rated.....and I kinda don't want to know them due to your screen name. lol

But yeah, Padres have a horrible Front office. Always have, always will.

They traded Ozzie Smith!

[BlackLantern]

Im a Mets fan, but I will always have a soft spot for the Padres, as I spent some time stationed in san diego when I was in the Navy...the city is so nice and the weather is outstanding most the year, if I could live there and play baseball I really wouldnt care how good the team was

[NewYorkSpider]

Did anyone read the article about A-Rod and Jose Canseco? This guy just needs to STFU.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3154625

[BlackLantern]

someone needs to hit Jose Canseco with a truck

[Spidey-Bat]

Even though he's a clown, he hasn't been proven wrong yet.

They traded Ozzie Smith!

Every teams has traded guys away who became all-stars at one time or another. Using it against them isn't fair because of this.

[DarthRekal]

Sucks dude. :down:




Hmmm....Nice. :up:

We filled our two biggest needs (power bat, starting pitching) without giving up the kids. That's good. :up:.

He's no Haren that's for sure. But The Dodgers 1-4 have pretty solid pitching. If schmidt, through some miracle act of god can recover from his torn lambrum (REALLY doubtful) we're solid 1 through 5.
:up: Hulkified:bh:

[Spidey-Bat]

Sucks dude. :down:

It means "Santana or bust" for the Mets. Which is both incredibly exciting and frightening.

[FaT_tONle]

someone needs to hit Jose Canseco with a truck

Seems like Canseco is one of the more credible guys in the steroids era these days it seems... A-Rod probably juiced at some point...

[BlackLantern]

i did find Jose Canseco entertaining in Pros v Joes.....he probably was the best s**t talker

[NewYorkSpider]

Seems like Canseco is one of the more credible guys in the steroids era these days it seems... A-Rod probably juiced at some point...

I'm sure everybody has done it at some point and I know Canseco is right when he said some peoples names were left off that list. I think he needs to shut his mouth for awhile and let this whole thing play out.

[fu manchu]

Pettitte admits HGH use
December 15, 2007

NEW YORK (TICKER) -- At least one person named in the Mitchell Report is stepping up and admitting his culpability.

New York Yankees lefthander Andy Pettitte released a statement Saturday admitting to using HGH twice in the 2002 season while attempting to recover from an elbow injury. The statement was on the New York Post's web site.

Pettitte was named in Thursday's report which included information from former Yankees' trainer Brian McNamee, who served as a personal trainer to both the lefthander and Roger Clemens up to the beginning of 2007.

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"From April 21 to June 14, 2002, Pettitte was on the disabled list with elbow tendinitis," the Mitchell Report states. "McNamee said that Pettitte called him while he was rehabilitating his elbow in Tampa, where the Yankees have a facility, and asked again about human growth hormone. Pettitte stated that he wanted to speed his recovery and help his team.

"McNamee traveled to Tampa at Pettitte's request and spent about 10 days assisting Pettitte with his rehabilitation. McNamee recalled that he injected Pettitte with human growth hormone that McNamee obtained from Radomski on two to four occasions. Pettitte paid McNamee for the trip and his expenses; there was no separate payment for the human growth hormone."

On Saturday Pettitte came clean, admitting that the Mitchell Report, as it pertained to him, was in fact accurate.

"In 2002 I was injured," Pettitte said in a statement on the New York Post's web site. "I had heard that human growth hormone could promote faster healing for my elbow. I felt an obligation to get back to my team as soon as possible.

"For this reason, and only this reason, for two days I tried human growth hormone. Though it was not against baseball rules, I was not comfortable with what I was doing, so I stopped. This is it - two days out of my life; two days out of my entire career, when I was injured and on the disabled list."

Pettitte came off the DL on June 14 of the 2002 season and went on to post a 12-4 record with a 3.29 ERA in 19 starts the rest of the way.

"If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize," Pettitte said. "I accept responsibility for those two days. Everything else written or said about me knowingly using illegal drugs is nonsense, wrong and hurtful. I have the utmost respect for baseball and have always tried to live my life in a way that would be honorable. I wasn't looking for an edge; I was looking to heal."

The 35-year-old announced that he was returning to the New York Yankees for at least one more season during the Winter Meetings two weeks ago, and finalized the deal just days before the release of Mitchell's report.

"If I have let down people that care about me, I am sorry, but I hope that you will listen to me carefully and understand that two days of perhaps bad judgment should not ruin a lifetime of hard work and dedication," Pettitte said. "I have tried to do things the right way my entire life, and, again, ask that you put those two days in the proper context."

After Pettitte's statement, the Yankees stated that Pettitte had advised the organization that he was going to make a statement and that the Yankees "support his coming forward."

Pettitte went 15-9 with a 4.05 ERA in 2007 and owns a career 201-113 record with a 3.83 ERA in 13 seasons with the Yankees and the Houston Astros.

:wow:

[Kingfish]

hey if any one of these guys was gonna step up and be anything close to a man about it, i'd expect it to be pettitte

[BlackLantern]

I'd always considered Pettite a class act....and I'm happy that he has stepped forward to address this.....if only others :::::cough:::clemens;::cough:::: had the cojones to step forward and admit their responsibility as well

[NewYorkSpider]

I'm glad Pettite came out with the truth. More players on that list need to do that now and not wait.

[fu manchu]

i have feeling that most would use the same excuse.

[Spidey-Bat]

I respect Pettitte for doing this. Clemens has screwed himself. He came out and called it slander (it's actually libel, dumbass). Now he has to press charges otherwise he'll look even more guilty. If he wins, he'll be like OJ (got away with it). If he loses, it'll be even worse.

[sinewave]

yay, the tobias avy is back! nobody can pull off wearing a ball-gag like him.

[Jerry!]

I know this is coming out of left field a little, but I still can't believe the Cubs signed ****udome . Do they need another 10 million dollar positional player? Is that what is going to help them win the World Series? And one that is coming off a season ending injury? Seriously, just about every position player on that team is making around or more than 10 million dollars a year. I'd hate to be a player in their farm system, you know you won't be playing on the Major league level for that team. Theriot nearly was completely passed over and he is a decent player.

Nope, its just another reason to raise ticket prices, by 30 percent this year. And the people will NEVER stop coming, no matter what. The team could lose every single game, and all it would do is probably just add to the whole legend of the Cubs futility and attract more people. In that way, signing ***udome was a smart move, the money wheel keeps spinning. This just helps it out a little bit more.

[Kingfish]

yep, thats a pretty decent portrayal of the cubbies. a team celebrated for its awe inspiring ability to suck.

[Dodger]

Every teams has traded guys away who became all-stars at one time or another. Using it against them isn't fair because of this.


Yeah I was reaching. lol

It means "Santana or bust" for the Mets. Which is both incredibly exciting and frightening.

Johan said he does not want to be traded unless he gets a contract extension. He's looking at 7 years 150 million. So I can see how it's frightening

[Spidey-Bat]

Johan said he does not want to be traded unless he gets a contract extension. He's looking at 7 years 150 million. So I can see how it's frightening
The Mets can afford the money. They have to be willing to (they dont want to give a pitcher more than 5 years, I say **** that if it's Santana). The frightening part is NOT getting him. They're an 85 win team without an ace.

[Dodger]

The Mets can afford the money. They have to be willing to (they dont want to give a pitcher more than 5 years, I say **** that if it's Santana). The frightening part is NOT getting him. They're an 85 win team without an ace.

Dude, to me it's just that a 7 year deal can come back to bite you in the ass. Hope it all goes through.

[Spidey-Bat]

He's only 29 and the Mets have no premiere pitcher to bridge the gap from Pedro to their prospects. A pitcher like him is the missing piece to get them deep into the playoffs. I'd take my chances.

[sinewave]

I know this is coming out of left field a little, but I still can't believe the Cubs signed ****udome . Do they need another 10 million dollar positional player? Is that what is going to help them win the World Series? And one that is coming off a season ending injury? Seriously, just about every position player on that team is making around or more than 10 million dollars a year. I'd hate to be a player in their farm system, you know you won't be playing on the Major league level for that team. Theriot nearly was completely passed over and he is a decent player.

Nope, its just another reason to raise ticket prices, by 30 percent this year. And the people will NEVER stop coming, no matter what. The team could lose every single game, and all it would do is probably just add to the whole legend of the Cubs futility and attract more people. In that way, signing ***udome was a smart move, the money wheel keeps spinning. This just helps it out a little bit more.

at least k-*** gets on base, something the rest of the team has a hard time doing. he should help them score more runs than they would have with someone like jacque jones in RF.

[Jerry!]

Doesn't matter, it really doesn't matter who the Cubs would have got, even if they signed A-Rod. And not every player coming from Japan is going to be Ichiro. Even though it worked out for the White Sox in 05', I don't like the whole idea of signing these players that were superstars over in Japan for 10 million dollars a year and thinking that their game is going to translate perfectly over to the MLB.

[Dodger]

He's only 29 and the Mets have no premiere pitcher to bridge the gap from Pedro to their prospects. A pitcher like him is the missing piece to get them deep into the playoffs. I'd take my chances.

Oh. For some reason I thought he was 32 :huh: Yeah a 7 year deal for HIM would not be all that bad. He'd be coming out of his prime years.

[Spidey-Bat]

His best years are ahead of him. Especially if he goes to the NL.

[sinewave]

Doesn't matter, it really doesn't matter who the Cubs would have got, even if they signed A-Rod. And not every player coming from Japan is going to be Ichiro. Even though it worked out for the White Sox in 05', I don't like the whole idea of signing these players that were superstars over in Japan for 10 million dollars a year and thinking that their game is going to translate perfectly over to the MLB.

considering the guy is 30, it's not too difficult to project how his numbers will translate with a certain degree of accuracy. he's well known for his plate discipline and pitch recognition. he's no ichiro, but he should be a pretty good. playing in the NL will help a lot. during the first year he'll probably put up numbers like .290/15/80/105/15 with an .OBP of .390 and a slugging percentage of .450, and hopefully get better from there. he should be a good mix of ichiro and hideki matsui, but with a little less speed and power and more .OBP. that's quality, and if jose guillen is worth $12 million a year, then this seems like a pretty good deal for the cubs.

[NewYorkSpider]

Doesn't matter, it really doesn't matter who the Cubs would have got, even if they signed A-Rod. And not every player coming from Japan is going to be Ichiro. Even though it worked out for the White Sox in 05', I don't like the whole idea of signing these players that were superstars over in Japan for 10 million dollars a year and thinking that their game is going to translate perfectly over to the MLB.

Cubs wouldn't have signed A-Rod because they are trying to sell the team and they also spent 300mil on free agents last year. I do agree with you about them paying him 12mil a year. He can steal bases and have an high OBP. They had better hope this works out.

[NewYorkSpider]

Yankees aren't done discussing Santana. Steinbrenner said he hasn't closed the door yet. At this point never believe what Hank says. He said they wouldn't sign A-Rod if he opted out(we signed him), we told Posada we would only give him a 3 year deal(we gave him 4) and I think the same thing happened to Rivera.

Santana (http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-2/1197697119317400.xml&coll=1&thispage=1)

[cyborg ninja 14]

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071217&content_id=2328222&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
HOUSTON -- The Texas High School Baseball Coaches Association may cancel an appearance by Roger Clemens scheduled for next month in Waco.

"We'll have an executive officer meeting [Tuesday] at noon," Brenham head coach Jim Long said. "We'll have an answer at 3."

Clemens is scheduled to be the keynote speaker at a Jan. 12 convention, and the topic of the speech is, "My vigorous workout: How I played so long [in professional baseball]."


Oh the irony!:woot:

[Showtime]

I heard that on the radio yesterday. Clemens is now like the plague.

[sinewave]

a good, short article on whether HGH actually benefits athletes.



Does HGH use really help?
posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 | Feedback | Print Entry
filed under: MLB

If you read and remember just one of my blog posts this winter, I hope it's this one, with video! (you need to register first, though) ...

What is the truth about HGH?

HGH has some definite and proven medical benefits. It is currently approved medically in the United States for two primary indications, short stature in children and growth hormone deficiency in adults.[2] All of these HGH benefits, however, are in individuals with growth hormone deficiency. In people with normal GH levels, HGH does not improve athletic performance in terms of muscle strength, flexibility, and endurance. In fact, several placebo-controlled studies have been negative.

A 4-week, double-blind Swedish study using 2 doses of HGH and placebo found no differences in subjects exercising on a bicycle in terms of power output and oxygen uptake.[3] In another study, a single injection of HGH increased plasma lactate and reduced exercise performance.[4]

[snip]

In addition to the lack of effectiveness for enhancing athletic performance, HGH has a downside. It can cause dose-related side effects including diabetes, carpal tunnel syndrome, fluid retention, joint stiffness, muscle pain, and high blood pressure.

It turns out that, like Paul Bunyan, the athletic benefits of HGH is a myth.

That's my opinion. I'm Dr. George Griffing, Professor of Medicine at St. Louis University and Editor in Chief of Internal Medicine for eMedicine.

Dr. George Griffing might be wrong. But his analysis seems to be based on the best science available at the moment, which means unless you're some sort of super-genius your best bet is to believe the Conventional Wisdom.

Actually, not the Conventional Wisdom. According to the CW -- as espoused by sports columnists and quack dentists, among others -- HGH is some sort of super serum that will turn you into Captain America.

Apparently it's not. Which isn't to say it shouldn't be frowned upon, as it may be unhealthy and is often, as obtained by professional athletes, illegal. But it now seems quite possible that not a single home run or strikeout has been gained from the ill-gotten, illusory benefits of human growth hormone.

[Spidey-Bat]

Yankees aren't done discussing Santana. Steinbrenner said he hasn't closed the door yet. At this point never believe what Hank says. He said they wouldn't sign A-Rod if he opted out(we signed him), we told Posada we would only give him a 3 year deal(we gave him 4) and I think the same thing happened to Rivera.

Santana (http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-2/1197697119317400.xml&coll=1&thispage=1)

He (or Cashman) are still refusing to trade Hughes and Kennedy. Unless they budge (which they probably won't), they won't get him. Twins are probably hoping they do so Boston can give them at least a better offer than the crap they have on the table now.

[NewYorkSpider]

He (or Cashman) are still refusing to trade Hughes and Kennedy. Unless they budge (which they probably won't), they won't get him. Twins are probably hoping they do so Boston can give them at least a better offer than the crap they have on the table now.

Have you been hearing Hughes and Kennedy or just one of them? I think it may take Hughes, Kennedy, Melky and another prospect. I'm still up in the air about trading both of them away.

[Spidey-Bat]

It'd have to be both. I would trade Kennedy in a heartbeat because his mechanics are so similar to Mark Prior's. Hughes could be good. Keyword could. Melky is nothing irreplaceable: average bat, no power, above average arm, weak plate discipline. If those 3 guys are all the Twins would want, the Yankees would be stupid NOT to do it.

Here's something new: The White Sox might trade Orlando Cabrera to the Red Sox for Lugo and Crisp. This could impact the Red Sox getting Santana, as they'd have to add more to the Lester package or create a new one since they'd probably keep Ellsbury.

Prior wants a 1 year deal. 11 teams are interested.

Orioles aren't happy with the offers for Bedard (which confirms my friend when he said the Orioles wanted a lot).

[Showtime]

Here's something new: The White Sox might trade Orlando Cabrera to the Red Sox for Lugo and Crisp. This could impact the Red Sox getting Santana, as they'd have to add more to the Lester package or create a new one since they'd probably keep Ellsbury.


The revolving door at the SS position continues for the Red Sox. They should have just kept Cabrera when they had the chance, he is certainly an upgrade over Lugo based on last years performance, although they did win a championship with Lugo. Cabrera was bigger in Boston than he ever would be anywhere else, and the did win a championship with him as well. I think it's also a good move because they are unloading Crisp. The question is, why the heck would the White Sox do this?

[Dark Donnie]

The revolving door at the SS position continues for the Red Sox. They should have just kept Cabrera when they had the chance, he is certainly an upgrade over Lugo based on last years performance, although they did win a championship with Lugo. Cabrera was bigger in Boston than he ever would be anywhere else, and the did win a championship with him as well. I think it's also a good move because they are unloading Crisp. The question is, why the heck would the White Sox do this?

I guess cause they'll fill there CF need, they probably expect Crisp to bounce back as well.

[Spidey-Bat]

The revolving door at the SS position continues for the Red Sox. They should have just kept Cabrera when they had the chance, he is certainly an upgrade over Lugo based on last years performance, although they did win a championship with Lugo. Cabrera was bigger in Boston than he ever would be anywhere else, and the did win a championship with him as well. I think it's also a good move because they are unloading Crisp. The question is, why the heck would the White Sox do this?

They need a CF. If they need a 2B, they could move Lugo or Uribe there.

[Dark Donnie]

Johan Santana-S- Twins Dec. 19 - 9:51 am et


Charley Walters of the St. Paul Pioneer Press reports that the Red Sox "remain the favorite to acquire Johan Santana," but "are adamantly opposed to" including Jacoby Ellsbury in a deal.

Walters writes that "there's buzz that the Santana trade could be made within days," yet notes that "the current holdup" is Boston's unwillingness to include Ellsbury instead of Coco Crisp in a package that also consists of Jon Lester, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson. Really no new information here except for the part about a deal potentially being imminent.
Source: St. Paul Pioneer Press
Related: Red Sox, Yankees

[Spidey-Bat]

They've been saying "a trade will happen in days" since the Winter Meetings. Nothing is going to happen soon.

[Superman79]

We'd better damn well not lose Ellsbury...no freakin way!

[Spidey-Bat]

Carlos Silva has agreed to a 4 yr/$44M contract.

Kinda surprised no NL went after him. Oh well. I give him 2 years before he becomes completely useless.

[NewYorkSpider]

It'd have to be both. I would trade Kennedy in a heartbeat because his mechanics are so similar to Mark Prior's. Hughes could be good. Keyword could. Melky is nothing irreplaceable: average bat, no power, above average arm, weak plate discipline. If those 3 guys are all the Twins would want, the Yankees would be stupid NOT to do it.


Cashman doesn't want to trade away those pitchers because he thinks they can win a Cy Young in the near future. At this point I would trade away just one of them. I've also been hearing the Yanks want to trade away Matsui and Mussina to make room for Santana. Both of them have no-trade protection. I highly doubt at this point we'll get Santana.

[Spidey-Bat]

Cashman doesn't want to trade away those pitchers because he thinks they can win a Cy Young in the near future. At this point I would trade away just one of them.
Dodgers thought the same of Edwin Jackson. Where's he now? Prospects can burn out. You shouldn't NOT make a move for a very good player because you think a prospect could be good. I find it funny you wouldn't want to give up 2 of the pitchers for Santana. I would give the Mets' top 10 prospects for him.

I've also been hearing the Yanks want to trade away Matsui and Mussina to make room for Santana. Both of them have no-trade protection. I highly doubt at this point we'll get Santana.
I've seen that. It's completely stupid to think the Yankees want to move Matsui and Mussina to make room for Santana. The issue was never the money and money will never be an issue with the Yankees. It's a reason the papers made up as to why the Yankees haven't gotten him already.

[NewYorkSpider]

Dodgers thought the same of Edwin Jackson. Where's he now? Prospects can burn out. You shouldn't NOT make a move for a very good player because you think a prospect could be good. I find it funny you wouldn't want to give up 2 of the pitchers for Santana. I would give the Mets' top 10 prospects for him.

Back on Dec 5th we could've traded away Hughes/Cabrera/Jeff Marquez(pitching prospect)/Mitch Hilligoss(third base prospect) for Santana. Cashman didn't want to because he thought the Yankees couldn't afford him now that Pettite was coming back. That really REALLY upset me. I'm not really sure why I don't want to give up both of them. We could have traded away just Hughes in the deal above and not both of them.

I've seen that. It's completely stupid to think the Yankees want to move Matsui and Mussina to make room for Santana. The issue was never the money and money will never be an issue with the Yankees. It's a reason the papers made up as to why the Yankees haven't gotten him already.

The Phillies have said they were intrested in Mussina and the Giants with Matsui. They won't go anywhere.

[Spidey-Bat]

Back on Dec 5th we could've traded away Hughes/Cabrera/Jeff Marquez(pitching prospect)/Mitch Hilligoss(third base prospect) for Santana. Cashman didn't want to because he thought the Yankees couldn't afford him now that Pettite was coming back. That really REALLY upset me. I'm not really sure why I don't want to give up both of them. We could have traded away just Hughes in the deal above and not both of them.
IIRC, the Angels and Mariners were in on Santana back then as well. They could have given a better package than that.

The Phillies have said they were intrested in Mussina and the Giants with Matsui. They won't go anywhere.
They probably won't if they have no trade protection.

[NewYorkSpider]

IIRC, the Angels and Mariners were in on Santana back then as well. They could have given a better package than that.


The Twins had agreed to the trade untill Cashman backed out. Cashman's love for Hughes will keep us from getting Santana. Kris Benson's name has come up for the Yanks. I wouldn't mind getting him. He could be 3rd or 4th in the rotation.

Curt Schilling is opening his big mouth again. Don't they have any duck tape in beantown.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3162329

[Spidey-Bat]

Schilling is right. But a radio host should be saying that, not a major league player.

[NewYorkSpider]

Schilling is right. But a radio host should be saying that, not a major league player.

I have no respect for Schilling opening his mouth about these things. He's arrogant and disrespectful IMO. I do however agree with him.

[Spidey-Bat]

Chad Durbin signed with the Phillies.

Ron Mahay signed with the Royals.

Sandy Koufax didn't do steroids; the "steroids" he did are what we call cortisone shots which are legal.

[Dark Donnie]

Phillies signed Geoff Jenkins

[Superman79]

I have no respect for Schilling opening his mouth about these things. He's arrogant and disrespectful IMO. I do however agree with him.


He is a bit arrogant, but as you pointed out he's right. That and he makes things entertaining. In a Vince McMahon/WWE sort of way :p

[YsoSerious]

Schilling is right. But a radio host should be saying that, not a major league player.

I agree. Schilling is the Rush Limbaugh of baseball.He should go off in a corner and put some more fake blood on his sock.

[Dark Donnie]

Kyle Lohse-S-Phillies Dec. 20 - 9:24 am et

Assistant general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. said Wednesday that Phillies have dropped out of the bidding for Kyle Lohse.

The Philadelphia Daily News reported earlier this week that the Phillies had already offered Lohse a four-year contract, but Amaro made it clear that an unwillingness to go beyond a three-year deal is what took Philadelphia out of the running. "From all indications it looked like it would take four years," Amaro said. "We let him know that we wouldn't go higher than three. He indicated he could get four, and we bowed out gracefully." The Mets are now believed to be the clear frontrunners to sign Lohse.
Source: New York Post
Related: Mets

[Superman79]

I agree. Schilling is the Rush Limbaugh of baseball.He should go off in a corner and put some more fake blood on his sock.

:cmad::cmad::cmad:

[YsoSerious]

:cmad::cmad::cmad:

Sorry Bosox fan. Couldn't resist.

[Silver Knight]

So whats the go with Santana?

[Spidey-Bat]

Kyle Lohse-S-Phillies Dec. 20 - 9:24 am et

Assistant general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. said Wednesday that Phillies have dropped out of the bidding for Kyle Lohse.

The Philadelphia Daily News reported earlier this week that the Phillies had already offered Lohse a four-year contract, but Amaro made it clear that an unwillingness to go beyond a three-year deal is what took Philadelphia out of the running. "From all indications it looked like it would take four years," Amaro said. "We let him know that we wouldn't go higher than three. He indicated he could get four, and we bowed out gracefully." The Mets are now believed to be the clear frontrunners to sign Lohse.
Source: New York Post
Related: Mets

This is why the Mets suck. The Mets have an iron fist when it comes to big contracts. To them, no pitcher is worth over 5 years. This includes a 29-year-old Johan Santana. However, they have no problem giving a bum like Kyle Lohse 4 years. Any one with half a brain knows 4 years of Lohse will be worse than 7 of Santana.

[sinewave]

This is why the Mets suck. The Mets have an iron fist when it comes to big contracts. To them, no pitcher is worth over 5 years. This includes a 29-year-old Johan Santana. However, they have no problem giving a bum like Kyle Lohse 4 years. Any one with half a brain knows 4 years of Lohse will be worse than 7 of Santana.

they should have gone after silva instead.

[Fran]

Tigers sign Willis to a 3-year extension :up:

[Spidey-Bat]

they should have gone after silva instead.

Silva is garbage. He averages 2 strikeouts per start. Since WWII, only Lew Burdette has had more than 3-4 years of success without striking out more than 4.5 guys per 9 innings. 4.5 K/9 is the minimum a pitcher needs to be successful for many years.

[sinewave]

Silva is garbage. He averages 2 strikeouts per start. Since WWII, only Lew Burdette has had more than 3-4 years of success without striking out more than 4.5 guys per 9 innings. 4.5 K/9 is the minimum a pitcher needs to be successful for many years.

he's not a strikeout pitcher, he's a ground ball pitcher. he'd be at least a league-average pitcher in the NL, especially in that ballpark. can you say the same for lohse?

[Spidey-Bat]

he's not a strikeout pitcher, he's a ground ball pitcher. he'd be at least a league-average pitcher in the NL, especially in that ballpark. can you say the same for lohse?

Even successful groundball pitchers have achieved 4.5 K/9 or greater.