Frank Miller's Holy Terror Batman

[Darkred]

So Miller is writing, drawing, and inking a story that will see the dark knight colliding with terrorists after an attack on gotham. I think this will be interesting but what are your thoughts.

[Two-Face]

Is this one where Batman chases Bin Laden's men?

[hippie_hunter]

I think that this is going to suck as hard as All-Star Batman and Robin :o

[Punisher RULES]

Miller's art seems to be getting a MAJOR upgrade from his dreadful All Star covers.

[LennonMcCartney]

Any images been released yet?

[Darkred]

Apparently he has already penciled a 200 page piece and thats all i know. Miller talked about how he liked the idea of superman and capt america clashing against hitler. So we could see bats knocking out bin laden. Should be interesting.
:D

[CrimsonMist]

Any images been released yet?

i think somewhere within the All Star Batman thread, there are screen caps of some video interview with Miller where he shows some poster sized panels from the story. Black & White....very Sin City

i think this is gonna be cool. I have a feeling the art will beat the piss out of his all-star covers. I also wouldnt mind seeing it as a black & white piece, rather than color. If he does color it, i want it hand colored, not crazy digital color like DKSA.

i think this story will kick ass too. If Captain America can punch out Hitler, and Superman can beat up a bunch of enemy japs, Batman surely has the comic book right to beat the piss out of Bin Laden.

[trustyside-kick]

I hope he doesn't screw this story up too.

[droogiedroogie2]

The funny thing about him saying that it's "unabashed propaganda" is that he used to come across as very critical of the government with his Batman stuff, and often with Sin City as well. DKSA in particular had a lot to say about the U.S. government, and how evilly it would respond to an attack. As we know, the same week that DKSA was released, the government did, in fact, end up responding to a terrorist attack in much the same way Miller's book predicted that it would. Pre-911 Frank Miller is a guy who you wouldn't think would support the government of unashamed wiretaps, the USAPATRIOT Act, informational warfare, and preemptive strikes. Post-911 Frank Miller is a blindly nationalistic douchebag.

I can only pray that this whole "unabashed propaganda" is a joke. That somehow this whole thing will end up being a satire of wartime propaganda. But I know that won't happen. **** you, Frank Miller. You have successfully ruined yourself. First All-Star Batman, then this crap. You better not **** up the new Sin City story you're writing for the new movie.

[cass]

A blindly nationalistic douchebag? You couldn't be more wrong. DKSA was extremely critical of the administration. But as for Batman taking on Al Queda? **** YEAH! Miller is against a terrorist group who flies planes into buildings and bombs their own people. That has nothing to do with being a douchebag.

[theMan-Bat]

Any images been released yet?

Miller talks about Holy Terror Batman:
http://www.spacecast.com/videoplayer_1696.aspx

Screencaps of the art shown:
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5135/holyterror12em.jpg
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/213/holyterror22hg.jpg
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/8995/holyterror30mg.jpg

[MaskedManJRK]

The funny thing about him saying that it's "unabashed propaganda" is that he used to come across as very critical of the government with his Batman stuff, and often with Sin City as well. DKSA in particular had a lot to say about the U.S. government, and how evilly it would respond to an attack. As we know, the same week that DKSA was released, the government did, in fact, end up responding to a terrorist attack in much the same way Miller's book predicted that it would. Pre-911 Frank Miller is a guy who you wouldn't think would support the government of unashamed wiretaps, the USAPATRIOT Act, informational warfare, and preemptive strikes. Post-911 Frank Miller is a blindly nationalistic douchebag.

I can only pray that this whole "unabashed propaganda" is a joke. That somehow this whole thing will end up being a satire of wartime propaganda. But I know that won't happen. **** you, Frank Miller. You have successfully ruined yourself. First All-Star Batman, then this crap. You better not **** up the new Sin City story you're writing for the new movie.

Yeah, that's why I think it's not going to be complete and utter "propaganda." He's still a bit of a left-slanter, I'll bet dollars to donuts about that.

I think while it's along the same vein of "superhero comes in and beats the s**t out of bad dude," I'll bet there's going to be some low blows to both sides.

[trustyside-kick]

Wait...it is really going to be called Holy Terror Batman? wow what a gay title. I thought this guy titled the thread that as a joke since Robin in the Golden Age and 50s/60s show would do those gay phrases.

[theMan-Bat]

Wait...it is really going to be called Holy Terror Batman? wow what a gay title. I thought this guy titled the thread that as a joke since Robin in the Golden Age and 50s/60s show would do those gay phrases.

Yes, it's really going to be called Holy Terror Batman. Miller said the title is a pun on the old TV series.

http://www.spacecast.com/videoplayer_1696.aspx

[warren_sparta27]

the art looks ok, but i still don't like the idea of the storyline :(

[LennonMcCartney]

Miller talks about Holy Terror Batman:
http://www.spacecast.com/videoplayer_1696.aspx

Screencaps of the art shown:
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5135/holyterror12em.jpg
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/213/holyterror22hg.jpg
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/8995/holyterror30mg.jpg

I'm not impressed one bit with the way Batman looks. I'm sorry, he looks like a middle aged man with a mask that looks like its a cheap wrestler's mask, a la Nacho Libre. I guess thats catwoman he is rescuing. The rest of it looks kind of interesting. Holy Terror Batman? Sigh.

You can see Nacho Libre here: http://www.nacholibre.com/site/downloads/desktops/get_desktop.php?path=nacho_desktop_md_2.jpg

EDIT:
Watching the video though, has shed some light on the comic. Its suppose to be a satire of the comics DC did in the 1940s during WWII. Miller says its supposed to be direct and abrupt, meaning we will get some un-P.C racial slurs perhapse and some cardboard cutouts of villians and cultures. I understand the "look" of Batman, because Batman is supposed to look like he is from the 1940s. I think it will be interesting. I didn't know he did his art on giant sheet. For some reason I was under the impression he used 8 1/2 by 11. Silly me.

[Fantasyartist]

I don't think this is a good idea, particularly with tesnions between the West and Islamic worlds running so high(Iraq, "blasphemous cartoons of Mohammed" et al).
True ,previous comic books had Captain America or Superman punching out Hitler, or other heroes taking on the Soviets(Iron Man, FF) during the Cold War, but those were secular nation states or ideologies(German Nazism, Soviet Communism et al) not a terror group widely seen as motivated by one of the world's three major faiths-in this case Islam. ( Even the PIRA was motivated by secular nationalism-not Catholicism per se).
Trust me, this is NOT a good idea!

[Two-Face]

So he's gonna take piss out of Bin Laden with 1940s Batman and we gonna have like 60s tv series? I don't like the campy at all.

Miller should have gone something like Dark Knight Returns.

[nite-owl]

I think that this is going to suck as hard as All-Star Batman and Robin :o

I dout it, it'll probably suck harder:o

[trustyside-kick]

I dout it, it'll probably suck harder:o

Yea cause only thing saving All Star Batman and Robin is Jim Lee's art.

[warren_sparta27]

Yea cause only thing saving All Star Batman and Robin is Jim Lee's art.

oh word to that :up:

[CrimsonMist]

I don't think this is a good idea, particularly with tesnions between the West and Islamic worlds running so high(Iraq, "blasphemous cartoons of Mohammed" et al).
True ,previous comic books had Captain America or Superman punching out Hitler, or other heroes taking on the Soviets(Iron Man, FF) during the Cold War, but those were secular nation states or ideologies(German Nazism, Soviet Communism et al) not a terror group widely seen as motivated by one of the world's three major faiths-in this case Islam. ( Even the PIRA was motivated by secular nationalism-not Catholicism per se).
Trust me, this is NOT a good idea!


i think it's a good idea. If they wanna put a death warrant on Miller, that's fine by me....aslong as the book gets published first.

[CrimsonMist]

So he's gonna take piss out of Bin Laden with 1940s Batman and we gonna have like 60s tv series? I don't like the campy at all.


where did you get that idea?

think about it...forget the blatently obvious 60's pun in the title. Think about it.

Osama Bin Laden...muslim terrorists...HOLY TERROR....see where i'm going with this?

as for it being set in the 1940s, i dont think so.The STYLE might be very 40's like, becuase Miller always incorporates that noir-feel in his works. So it might LOOK 40's, but wont be set in the 40's...much like BATMAN'89.

[cass]

You know what? I'm sick and tired of people cowering. I say if people are going to kill because of a comic book, then bring it on. How pathetic can you truly be?

[Two-Face]

where did you get that idea?

think about it...forget the blatently obvious 60's pun in the title. Think about it.

Osama Bin Laden...muslim terrorists...HOLY TERROR....see where i'm going with this?

as for it being set in the 1940s, i dont think so.The STYLE might be very 40's like, becuase Miller always incorporates that noir-feel in his works. So it might LOOK 40's, but wont be set in the 40's...much like BATMAN'89.


Either way, I don't like where Miller is going with this.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I dunno......the Artist in me appreciates Miller's attempt to give Comic Books some testicles again, there WILL be a major **** storm over this if it recieves enough hype...........and comics being used as almost like a political satire is classic.

However......the Batman fan in me doesn't like where it's going.

.....I'll wait for judgement when it's released.

[batmaluco]

I think that Frank has put himself in a situation where this story can be truly brilliant or totally lame, no middle terms can be achieved.
Very interesting situation.

[Darkred]

This novel is already getting attention....it was mentioned in the national newspaper the other week here in london. I still believe in frank miller, DKR is still a master piece and Holly Terror could even come close. But i wont be too surprised if its totaly crap.

[trustyside-kick]

Makes sense why it is getting attention by newspapers...I mean Miller is writing about Batman fighting terrorists...and to be even more specific Al'Queda ones...

Damn you Miller...damn you to you know where. :(

[DocLathropBrown]

People need to lighten up. Don't like Miller's work? Don't read it. Don't like All Star? Stop whining and stop reading it. I happen to really like Frank Miller, and despite him being totally the opposite of me politically, I appreciate his writing. He's one of the few Lefties I like. :up:

[trustyside-kick]

I don't hate Miller. I just do not like that his newest Batman story is this...of all things...

[Mr. Socko]

What has Miller come too...

Batman fighting terrorist? Why can't we just stick with Ra's Al Ghul.

Miller needs to just give up on Batman, I'll eat my left shoe if this is as good as DKR. I'm expecting a DKSA level of trash.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, political based stories are nothing new, and honestly....it's one of the things that made DKR the classic it is.

[Ibn]

Well, political based stories are nothing new, and honestly....it's one of the things that made DKR the classic it is.

Thank you man! I personally can't wait for this. But I'm not sure how these things work so, is it going to be a comic first, or a straight up graphic novel? Judging from some of the screen caps, it's going to look like a sort of Bat-Sin City. I don't care what any of you say, when he stays in black and white, Frank Miller's artwork is damn awesome. His panels are also great. The only problem I have w/ his batman is that, in his past few bat books, he's made Bats a real dick. But judging by that pic w/ he and Catwoman, this looks like it could possibly be reminiscent of the somber poetic atmosphere found in DKR. If Frank goes that route, there is no way that this book will suck. Frank Miller is one of the most poetic forces to ever grace comics. His ability to paint a picture simply off of words is rivaled by few. I'm sick you fanboy's who obsess over DKSA and use that as the sole basis to declare that Frank sucks. If half of you who ***** and moan actually read his other works, you'd know that he definitely does not suck, and deserves a hell of alot of respect for being a revolutionary in this industry.

[Stuntman Mike]

Whats going on with this book? Is it dead? I haven't heard anything about it for at least the past year. With Miller doing The Spirit movie, has he dropped the book?

[OSM]

I've been wondering this too, It sounds like a great read.

[Mee]

I doubt he's dropped it, cause last we heard he was in the process of inking it. But working on All Star and The Spirit is slowing him down quite a bit, apparently.

[Stuntman Mike]

Last time I heard he was 120 pages into inking it.

[fceeviper]

His last interview, he stated he will finish up the book after he is done with the Spirit movie.

I can't wait. :up:

[Punch]

The pages he's shown look fantastic. They look like it may be intended to be published in black and white

[thejestergod6]

soon ....soon.......soon HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHahahaahahahahahHahHahAHa

[DarkKnight15]

The pages he's shown look fantastic. They look like it may be intended to be published in black and white

where did you see the pics? can you post them?

[Punch]

where did you see the pics? can you post them?
Yeah sure they're in this video
http://www.spacecast.com/videoplayer_1696.aspx

[Sparta*]

This is the first i've heard of this! Sounds amazing though! Pretty much anything Frank Miller+Batman=AMAZING

[Cobblepot]

If they release the book in a while it's just too late. It'll be good though, but it's just too late.

[RobC]

Yeah, I heard about this AGES ago, but I guess with The Spirit and stuff it just got held back. Can't wait though, trust Miller to re-invigorate Batman...

[CrimsonMist]

i think this book's gonna kick ass. In some interview a while back, he said, of his art for this book, something along the lines of Daredevil was his tribute to New York City. Holy Terror Batman is his tribute to Gotham City.

The Black & White art looks great. That style does wonders for his Sin City books. It envokes a whole new atmosphere, which i cant get enough of. I just hope his writing matches that. Where i love his All-Star work, i really don't want to see Batman laughing maniacally, or saying "I love being the God Damned Batman", or "Cool"(Just "A storm is coming" would have been nice), or "Striking fear: Best part of the Job).

Im not saying i hate that stuff, as i think it fits Jim Lee's style of art and the tone of All Star, i just think that with the concept at hand with Holy Terror, some of those things aren't really called for.

[RobC]

It'll be different writing, none of his stuff is the same, even DKR and DKSA had different tones.

[CrimsonMist]

It'll be different writing, none of his stuff is the same, even DKR and DKSA had different tones.

Well obviously there's different tones in those books. But the tones between DKSA and All Star are close to the same. Both have moments of outstanding writing, then they have cornball moments thrown in, killing the moment/mood.

I'd like Holy Terror to go back to that DKR/Year One/Born Again writing style. I think it's more appropriate.

[DarkKnight15]

I'd like Holy Terror to go back to that DKR/Year One/Born Again writing style. I think it's more appropriate.

yea im hoping thats how its going to be too. i cant wait until this comes out, i hope its soon, ive been hearing about this for over 1 year now

[silentflute]

Anyone notice how Batman is drawn in those pages?What's with the goggles-and being able to see the eyes?

[CrimsonMist]

Anyone notice how Batman is drawn in those pages?What's with the goggles-and being able to see the eyes?

I don't know, but i'm digging it. It looks pretty cool.

[RobC]

Yeah, if Miller dropped the corny moments it'd rock, thats why I don't like All-Star with its whole i'm the goddamn Batman stuff. Take him back to the ultra-gritty noir roots.

[CrimsonMist]

Yeah, if Miller dropped the corny moments it'd rock, thats why I don't like All-Star with its whole i'm the goddamn Batman stuff. Take him back to the ultra-gritty noir roots.

Honestly, i love All-Star for that very reason. It's different, and it kicks ass in it's own way. The thing is, the book has moments of great writing and moments of cornball moments. Both moments separate from one another are really good. it's when they're blended together that bugs me.

But with the look of Holy Terror, and all of the comments made by Miller regarding the book, he seems very serious with the topic that he's dealing with in the book. It seems that 9/11 and the current situation with the middle east really has struck a chord with Miller. So hopefully, like you said, this means we're gonna get a dark, deep, grim Batman like Miller once gave us.

[Aristotle]

I can't, for the life of me, imagine why everyone seems so excited about Miller turning Batman into a 1940-style propaganda machine.

[Armored Avenger]

Political Miller worked before (Dark Knight Returns), so it might work again, but im going to have to read it before i pass judgement.

[RobC]

True, DKR really worked as a satire more then anything. We'll see what happens, but I truly doubt that Miller ill have him asking you to buy war bonds.

[Punch]

I can't, for the life of me, imagine why everyone seems so excited about Miller turning Batman into a 1940-style propaganda machine.
It's a Frank Miller Batman book, that's more than enough reason to get excited about it.

[CrimsonMist]

It's a Frank Miller Batman book, that's more than enough reason to get excited about it.

Pretty much.

I don't even see it much as a propaganda book either, despite the fact Miller says it is. Regardless, i'd like to see some costumed hero take on terrorists and beat them to a pulp. I mean, Marvel killed Captain America. ...Why would you do that? Money, of course,and that whole silly Civil War thing in Marvel, but why else would you KILL Captain AMERICA? If anyone should be taking on Al Qaeda it's Captain America. I don't read alot of Marvel books, nor do i have much interest in doing so, but the killing off of Captain America came off to me as some sort of political correction and cowardly. God forbid there's someone who is proud to be American and is willing to kick some terrorist pig ass.

That said, as nothing is being solved in the real world regarding the middle east, it's kind of nice to see Batman or someone actually doing something about it.

on that note though, i didn't (if i did) intend to offend anyone else's point of view on this subject. So if i did, i apologize.

[Sparta*]

I can't, for the life of me, imagine why everyone seems so excited about Miller turning Batman into a 1940-style propaganda machine.

That's why I am excited lol

[CrimsonMist]

where did you see the pics? can you post them?

i found this on some spanish news site on Google images. It's a still taken from the video.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/Beware308/HolyTerrorvideo.jpg

[Sparta*]

I dunno about Batman's look but it's going to be an awesome read, there is no doubt in my mind about that. This is definatley more 'Sin City' stylized artwork as opposed to DKR or DKSA

[Aristotle]

Political Miller worked before (Dark Knight Returns), so it might work again, but im going to have to read it before i pass judgement.No, political Miller didn't work. The whole Mutants gang subplot was so blatantly and disgustingly racist that it almost ruined the rest of the book. Sexism abounded, just as it always does in anything Miller touches. Miller failed to identify any real target of his conservative rage in the book, either, managing to spew hatred both at the people of this country, AND at some vague, undefined, "big government" caricature.

Dark Knight Returns works ONLY on the levels of comic-book narrative, and comic-book satire. Think any deeper than that and it is scary how such a problematic book got so popular.

[Aristotle]

God forbid there's someone who is proud to be American and is willing to kick some terrorist pig ass.Oh aren't you just delightful. Have you ever bothered to do any research into why there are terrorists? Can you even name a non-white foreign country that wasn't mentioned on the news in the last six months?

That said, as nothing is being solved in the real world regarding the middle east, it's kind of nice to see Batman or someone actually doing something about it.Wait, wait, wait...unprovoked, extreme violence without diplomacy in the Middle East is failing, and has been failing for decades...so you want to see more of the same?

[Punch]

No, political Miller didn't work. The whole Mutants gang subplot was so blatantly and disgustingly racist that it almost ruined the rest of the book. Sexism abounded, just as it always does in anything Miller touches. Miller failed to identify any real target of his conservative rage in the book, either, managing to spew hatred both at the people of this country, AND at some vague, undefined, "big government" caricature.

Dark Knight Returns works ONLY on the levels of comic-book narrative, and comic-book satire. Think any deeper than that and it is scary how such a problematic book got so popular.

Racist? Sexist? Where exactly?

Sorry, but Miller's politics are too complicated to label him a conservative, as your own argument points out. There IS no easy answer. Even Batman himself is not portrayed as the end all answer to the city's problems. He's part of the problem in many ways. Miller didn't fail, it was you who failed to understand the book.

[Aristotle]

Racist? Sexist? Where exactly?The gang in Gotham are a transparently racist caricature of black people. They are portrayed in a way that implies black youths, and they are shown to be little better than animals.

Sorry, but Miller's politics are too complicated to label him a conservative, as your own argument points out.They're about as complex as pocket lint. He just has a vague rage against women, minorities, poor people, rich people, the people in charge, the people getting screwed by the people in charge, and basically everyone who isn't him. His Batman is often an ugly example of a Mary-Sue. What he amounts to is a racist, sexist, classist pig whose only reason for distrusting the government and arguing for increased freedom and liberty is that he wants to be able to do whatever he wants to do. It's sadly obvious that if Miller were in charge of things (which he would love to be), liberty would dry up real fast, right after all the women were put in their place, and the black folks and poor folks were put in their place, and the evil terrorists who "hate us for our freedom" were all annihilated because they're not white.

There IS no easy answer.Is that why Miller's writing Holy Terror Batman, the very PICTURE of "easy answer"?

Even Batman himself is not portrayed as the end all answer to the city's problems. He's part of the problem in many ways.Yes, that was one of levels upon which the book worked, which I mentioned.

Miller didn't fail, it was you who failed to understand the book.No, you failed to fully evaluate it, because you're too much of a Miller fanboy, or a Batman fanboy, or both, to really look into it.

[Sparta*]

It's sadly obvious that if Miller were in charge of things (which he would love to be), liberty would dry up real fast, right after all the women were put in their place, and the black folks and poor folks were put in their place, and the evil terrorists who "hate us for our freedom" were all annihilated because they're not white

That is absolutley ridiculous and untrue

[Aristotle]

Have you READ Sin City, 300, DKR, DKSA, and All-Star Batman? Are you AWARE of what he's said his new Holy Terror Batman will be about?

[Punch]

The gang in Gotham are a transparently racist caricature of black people. They are portrayed in a way that implies black youths, and they are shown to be little better than animals.

Really? That sounds like you're projecting a lot into it. What makes you think that it's a caricature of black people, and not youth in general?

They're about as complex as pocket lint. He just has a vague rage against women, minorities, poor people, rich people, the people in charge, the people getting screwed by the people in charge, and basically everyone who isn't him. His Batman is often an ugly example of a Mary-Sue. What he amounts to is a racist, sexist, classist pig whose only reason for distrusting the government and arguing for increased freedom and liberty is that he wants to be able to do whatever he wants to do. It's sadly obvious that if Miller were in charge of things (which he would love to be), liberty would dry up real fast, right after all the women were put in their place, and the black folks and poor folks were put in their place, and the evil terrorists who "hate us for our freedom" were all annihilated because they're not white.
Once again sounds like a lot of projection on your part. There is no evidence of racism or sexism in the books. I have no idea where you get these feelings from.
If you have examples, use them.

Is that why Miller's writing Holy Terror Batman, the very PICTURE of "easy answer"?

How do we know? The book isn't out yet, we have no idea what it'll be like.

No, you failed to fully evaluate it, because you're too much of a Miller fanboy, or a Batman fanboy, or both, to really look into it.
Ah. Name calling. the tell tale sign that an argument has no legs.I was waiting for "Miller fanboy" to be trotted out.

[Aristotle]

Really? That sounds like you're projecting a lot into it. What makes you think that it's a caricature of black people, and not youth in general?What makes me think that? Reading it.

Once again sounds like a lot of projection on your part. There is no evidence of racism or sexism in the books. I have no idea where you get these feelings from.
If you have examples, use them.How many female characters can you name in a Miller story that were not hookers, villains, or victims? I can recall one. The few heroic women in Miller stories almost always need a man to smack them into their senses, or to guide them on their way, and they're often hookers, or something similar.

How do we know? The book isn't out yet, we have no idea what it'll be like.We have Frank Miller's word on what it will be.

As for name-calling, if the shoe fits...

[DocLathropBrown]

Wow. I think a lot of people missed the fact that DKR is supposed to be a satire of the Reagan era. As such, it is a book that insults Conservatives and how consumerism and overt-patroitism was driving America. The president represented is indeed Ronald Reagan.

And what the Hell is wrong with representing terrorists as the bad guys? Is it our fault that one of (if not) the most prevailent terrorists are middle-eastern? Hey, what's true is true. Whether you agree with the Iraq war or not, let's not lose sight of that. Propoganda doesn't always mean it's stuff to rally against a false enemy. I wish people would stop acting like any propoganda is evil and unfounded. What Osama and his people did is very real. Anything that reminds us of how evil they can be is "propoganda (ie: untrue and unfounded)" now?

And a staggering amount of people don't 'get' Miller. All of his Batman material (Year One aside) is very darkly humorous and irreverent. All-Star Batman is very silly on purpose. His work on Batman is self-parodious. He is calling attention to the insane aspects of Batman while telling a solid story.

[Punch]

What makes me think that? Reading it.
You read it wrong.


How many female characters can you name in a Miller story that were not hookers, villains, or victims? I can recall one. The few heroic women in Miller stories almost always need a man to smack them into their senses, or to guide them on their way, and they're often hookers, or something similar.
Elektra
Casey McKenna
Carrie Kelly
Martha Washington
Chastity McBride
Ellen Yindel
If I wanted to I can add Selina Kyle to that list, since there's no evidence that she was a prostitute, but I don't to want open that can of worms.

And now women can't be villains either? Why not? Already you've proved that Miller's view on women is more complex than your own. In your mind, a woman who is a hooker is less of a person, but his male characters can be flawed as they like without objection, and a woman can't be a villain.

[Dirt Like Me]

What makes me think that? Reading it.

How many female characters can you name in a Miller story that were not hookers, villains, or victims? I can recall one. The few heroic women in Miller stories almost always need a man to smack them into their senses, or to guide them on their way, and they're often hookers, or something similar.

We have Frank Miller's word on what it will be.

As for name-calling, if the shoe fits...

Alright. I can see the undercurrent of misogyny to which you refer. But I have no idea how you're injecting race into the depiction of the Mutants and would honestly like to know how you've arrived at that conclusion. Is it their jargon? Their clothes? Or is there something in particular about their behavior that gives you that impression?

I don't mean to pry or come off as confrontational, but I'm really curious to hear your view on this. DKR is one of my favorites and I have never interpreted things that way. To me, the Mutants just seem like a bunch of lemming kids who are looking for somebody to follow, so their race isn't even an issue. (And they're drawn kind of race-less, even when the SOB shoots the Nixons in the convenience store).

[RobC]

Wow, gotta agree, Aristotle you seem to be projecting a lot of your own stereotypes into Miller's work. I never saw the Mutants as black teenagers, I saw it more indicative of teenage rebellion at the time what with the grunge era right around the corner.

I didn't view it as sexist either, one of the lead characters was female, and pretty much figured out who Batman was, and outwitted the mutants. Thats a strong female role model.

As I've stated before, you seem to be projecting your own views rather violently into these comic books, and what you said about Miller being in charge is tantamount to slander. Miller, in no way, wants to get rid of any culture in society, and unless you have evidence to the contrary you need to stop saying that he does.

Bottom line, I highly doubt that Frank Miller is stupid enough to write a book which is pure propoganda, i'm pretty sure that it'll take a rather biting look at the American culture as well, something that DKR did brilliantly.

You also seem to be rather insulting to other posters, questioning their intelligence just because they disagree with your point of view, and not only in this post. I think you need to calm down and realize that multiple points of view can, and will, be put across in this thread, and none of them are neccesarily right.

I also think that maybe you need to rethink your views on terrorism, as, at current, the major terrorist threat sadly does come from the middle-east. The same in the 80's it came from Northern Ireland. These are just facts of life, and i'm sure that 99% of the people in the middle-east are reputable, good living people. Sadly a few bad eggs spoil it for them, the same as in the US and the UK i'm sure. No-one sees the good people as the problem, but terrorism, on all levels, and by all people should never be tolerated.

I wonder how your opinion would change if the terrorists in this book were the IRA, a predominantely white terrorist organization.

[Aristotle]

And what the Hell is wrong with representing terrorists as the bad guys?This is a medium in which Lex flippin' Luthor, Magneto, Dr. Doom, Vandal Savage, and even the Joker have been presented in a sympathetic, multidimensional light. But somehow no one can be bothered to examine the realities behind what causes terrorism and violence in the real world?

Is it our fault that one of (if not) the most prevailent terrorists are middle-eastern?The existence and proliferation of Muslim terrorism can be very directly traced to Western, and specifically American, cultural, economic, political, and military hegemony tracing back over many, many, many years. So yeah, actually, it is.

And a staggering amount of people don't 'get' Miller. All of his Batman material (Year One aside) is very darkly humorous and irreverent. All-Star Batman is very silly on purpose. His work on Batman is self-parodious. He is calling attention to the insane aspects of Batman while telling a solid story.Again: THAT is one of the levels upon which his Batman stories work.

[Aristotle]

Elektra
Casey McKenna
Carrie Kelly--portrayed as being sexually intimate with Bruce
Martha Washington
Chastity McBride
Ellen Yindel--portrayed as being the enemy, and it is heavily implied that she is wrong because she is a woman in a man's position.
If I wanted to I can add Selina Kyle to that list, since there's no evidence that she was a prostitute, but I don't to want open that can of worms.So, OK, four.

And now women can't be villains either? Why not?Actually, it turns out I never said anything remotely similar to that.

Already you've proved that Miller's view on women is more complex than your own. In your mind, a woman who is a hooker is less of a person, but his male characters can be flawed as they like without objection, and a woman can't be a villain.In my mind, a world in which women are ONLY hookers dehumanizes and sexualizes women.

[Aristotle]

Wow, gotta agree, Aristotle you seem to be projecting a lot of your own stereotypes into Miller's work. I never saw the Mutants as black teenagers, I saw it more indicative of teenage rebellion at the time what with the grunge era right around the corner.As many have already said, DKR took on the culture of its day. And one dominant aspect of the 1980s was crime in urban areas, committed by poor people, who are, unfortunately, disproportionately black. When one compares DKR to other works of fiction of the time that took on a similar subject, one begins to see a pattern. Furthermore, the language Batman and other characters use in regards to the gang mirror very closely the racist-just-below-the-surface rhetoric of countless political and cultural icons of the time.

I didn't view it as sexist either, one of the lead characters was female, and pretty much figured out who Batman was, and outwitted the mutants. Thats a strong female role model.Aside from the viewpoint, which has been argued by many critics, that casting Robin as a female was mostly a way for Miller to attack the character as "girlie," Carrie amounts to one of a VERY select few females who have been portrayed in anything resembling a neutral light, a light in which they could be portrayed on their merits, rather than on problematic stereotypes.

As I've stated before, you seem to be projecting your own views rather violently into these comic booksNo, I'm just not allowing my enjoyment of the character, the writer, and the stories as superhero narratives to obfuscate the clear truth of the matter: when one looks deeper, they are offensive, bigoted, and problematic.

and what you said about Miller being in charge is tantamount to slander.Actually, the word you're looking for is libel. But no, it's not tantamount to that either.

Miller, in no way, wants to get rid of any culture in societyHis work says otherwise.

You also seem to be rather insulting to other posters, questioning their intelligence just because they disagree with your point of view, and not only in this post. I think you need to calm down and realize that multiple points of view can, and will, be put across in this thread, and none of them are neccesarily right.Sorry, the point of view that terrorists do what they do because they hate freedom, and that Arabs are evil because they're not white, is wrong. And that's what CrimsonMist was fomenting.

I also think that maybe you need to rethink your views on terrorism, as, at current, the major terrorist threat sadly does come from the middle-east.I know that. But no one seems interested in asking WHY.

These are just facts of life, and i'm sure that 99% of the people in the middle-east are reputable, good living people. Sadly a few bad eggs spoil it for them, the same as in the US and the UK i'm sure.But in the US and the UK, when a white guy goes on a killing spree, or blows up a building, there are no military reprisals killing more civilian targets than military ones. There are no threats of war or sanctions.

I wonder how your opinion would change if the terrorists in this book were the IRA, a predominantely white terrorist organization.It'd be a different book, wouldn't it? The conversation about Muslim terrorism is inherently charged with racial and political and economic dimensions.

[Punch]

Carrie Kelly--portrayed as being sexually intimate with Bruce
That's a lie, show me where that happened.

Ellen Yindel--portrayed as being the enemy, and it is heavily implied that she is wrong because she is a woman in a man's position.
yes the enemy, because she's the commissioner of the police department and Batman is a vigilante. By definition they are enemies. But she "got it" by the end of the book, in case you missed that part, because you seem to have missed a lot. Yindel is portrayed as a good cop, someone who's capable and earnest. I don't even know who you think considers her "wrong". Heavily implied? where? How?

Actually, it turns out I never said anything remotely similar to that.

Well, it turns out that you did
How many female characters can you name in a Miller story that were not hookers, villains, or victims? I can recall one. The few heroic women in Miller stories almost always need a man to smack them into their senses, or to guide them on their way, and they're often hookers, or something similar.

The rest of that statement begs the question, what books of Miller's have you read?

In my mind, a world in which women are ONLY hookers dehumanizes and sexualizes women.

I agree.

[RobC]

This argument is getting ridiculous 'cause Aristotle is never gonna conceed his point and he's gonna keep on arguing. I say just work around it, keep posting your own views/thoughts/ideas on Holy Terrorism and try and all get along...

[Dirt Like Me]

As many have already said, DKR took on the culture of its day. And one dominant aspect of the 1980s was crime in urban areas, committed by poor people, who are, unfortunately, disproportionately black. When one compares DKR to other works of fiction of the time that took on a similar subject, one begins to see a pattern. Furthermore, the language Batman and other characters use in regards to the gang mirror very closely the racist-just-below-the-surface rhetoric of countless political and cultural icons of the time.

Alright. So you're saying that you can't point to any particular aspect in the depiction of the mutants in DKR and say that it's racist. You're resorting to prevalent themes and a "pattern" formed by comparing it to "other works of fiction of the time." That argument doesn't really have any teeth unless you can point out these other books and establish that theme. Same goes for your "countless political and cultural icons of the time." Without names and examples, your argument lacks substance and reeks of somebody being purposefully argumentative. I'm sorry I took the bait yesterday.

Back on topic: I would really enjoy seeing a book where Batman kicks Bin Laden's ass, and I hope Frank comes through soon.

[RobC]

It'll come soon, my guess is, he'll work on it alongside The Spirit, I predict a late Feb release date maybe? Or am I clutching at straws?

[silentflute]

[QUOTE=Aristotle;13494565]The gang in Gotham are a transparently racist caricature of black people. They are portrayed in a way that implies black youths, and they are shown to be little better than animals.


Considering the fact that Miller specifically stated that the Mutant Gang dialect was based on California kids speech patterns in Lynn Varley's neighborhood(which is as whitebread America as you can get), then I have to say yes, you're definitley projecting.

They're about as complex as pocket lint. He just has a vague rage against women, minorities, poor people, rich people, the people in charge, the people getting screwed by the people in charge, and basically everyone who isn't him. His Batman is often an ugly example of a Mary-Sue. What he amounts to is a racist, sexist, classist pig whose only reason for distrusting the government and arguing for increased freedom and liberty is that he wants to be able to do whatever he wants to do. It's sadly obvious that if Miller were in charge of things (which he would love to be), liberty would dry up real fast, right after all the women were put in their place, and the black folks and poor folks were put in their place, and the evil terrorists who "hate us for our freedom" were all annihilated because they're not white.


Hmmm.Interesting theory.Is that why he made the heroine in the Martha Washington books a black female?

Is that why Miller's writing Holy Terror Batman, the very PICTURE of "easy answer"?

No.He's writing it because sick,demented scum murdered his neighbors(and mine) in the name of God.What justification is there for such a massacre?

[CrimsonMist]

Sorry, the point of view that terrorists do what they do because they hate freedom, and that Arabs are evil because they're not white, is wrong. And that's what CrimsonMist was fomenting.



actually, not once did i say that Arabs are evil because they aren't white. Hell, i'm friends with arab people. There are good Arabs in this world. But being as how their religion states basically to convert people to their religion by the sword, and the people we're dealing with are the extremists who vehemently believe in that, i'd say it's a problem that needs to be taken care of. These psychos(the extremists) are also the ones that wanted to give that teacher in Sudan 50 lashes for naming a teddy bear Muhammad, and then have her executed because it was her intention to insult Islam.

There's something wrong with that. I'm sorry, but there is.

You said "But in the US and the UK, when a white guy goes on a killing spree, or blows up a building, there are no military reprisals killing more civilian targets than military ones. There are no threats of war or sanctions."

I agree with that. It IS ridiculous. And it sucks that there are more innocents getting killed than there are bad guys. And some would say it's an eye for an eye. I don't necessarily believe that, but some people do, but that's not really relevant to this conversation.

The point is, despite the political motivation is behind middle eastern terrorists, they're a problem. And it needs to be dealt with. And for some people, like Frank Miller, having a masked crime fighter beat the piss out of all of them, is a way of dealing with it.

[Nepenthes]

Looks like Aristotle is being argumentive for the sake of being argumentative.

[RobC]

Ditto with that... Back to topic...

Any firm ideas on a release date?

[Sparta*]

I don't even think Miller knows lol :p

[kez1984]

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4083/kramerwideweb470x3060os8.jpg

[CrimsonMist]

Ditto with that... Back to topic...

Any firm ideas on a release date?

lol, who knows. Sometime mid-way through next year i imagine. Maybe a March release or something. An update from Frank would be nice.

[RobC]

Coolio, from the panels we've seen it looks like good read, looking forward to it now...

[etrigan69]

Looks like Aristotle is being argumentive for the sake of being argumentative.
Yep. He baiting and the fish are swallowing......

[ronny]

You know, I'm looking forward to this comic. I hate Miller but I love to see terrorist scum getting the royal piss taken out of them. Why should this be attacked? I'll tell you why: Because white liberals feel sorry for Poor Mother Palestine. Poor Mother Palestine who has money for bullets but not for bread. Idiots. It's time to fight back against these traitors and inbred racist dogs! Propaganda is a vital and important tool and these doubters should look at who the enemy is. Is it your government? Is it the soldiers in a foreign land dying to protect you? Or is it the bearded bastards who'd shoot you back to Turkmenistan given half the chance? Oh...decisions, decisions. I'll take Option C for 5000 points Alec. Let's be realistic about this, Miller's intentions are good. We are in the right. The scum are in the wrong. A bit of flag waving is just what we need. But hey, don't forget England Frankie. And don't use the comic book to take potshots at Christianity either. You're an Atheist. We get it. Grow up and start being a little more tolerant. Do you see me killing Muslims and Jews? No. Do I make it a point of honour to stone homosexuals in the street? Of course not! So stop being a bigot. This comic has potential, great potential and we don't need you mucking it up with you Dawkinsist rhetoric.

[RobC]

Wow.

Hands down that is the most wacked out post i've read on the Hype!

I think you've entirely misinterpreted both the message of this comic book, and of this thread dedicated to it, and I don't think it's possible for you to be more out of line with your comments with regards to the general tone of the rest of this topic.

At least Aristotle backed up his ideas and presented them in the correct fashion.

You just make yourself look like a retarded monkey on crack spewing forth conspiracy theories about Frank Miller and the world in general...

Take this one for 5,000 -> Dick.

[Dirt Like Me]

I had a post but decided it wasn't even worth it. Merry Christmas to all.

[ronny]

Wow.

Hands down that is the most wacked out post i've read on the Hype!

I think you've entirely misinterpreted both the message of this comic book, and of this thread dedicated to it, and I don't think it's possible for you to be more out of line with your comments with regards to the general tone of the rest of this topic.

At least Aristotle backed up his ideas and presented them in the correct fashion.

You just make yourself look like a retarded monkey on crack spewing forth conspiracy theories about Frank Miller and the world in general...

Take this one for 5,000 -> Dick.

Uh-huh. And why do you say that? Everything I said was true. The reason people hate this idea is because they feel sorry for these obscure goat farmers and rock-hoarders we're murdering in some far-off strip of sand. I mean, how in Gods name can you feel sorry for these people? They don't even shave! And you just know that, to them, a bath is a yearly luxury. You want to do some humanitarian work with these people? Take nose-plugs. And leave logic at the door because these sorts are really disenfreedomist. [i]REALLY/i] disenfreedomist. I mean, we bring them liberty and they STILL hate us! Can't they just get with the programme? I mean, sure, we probably killed tens of thousands of men, women and children. And maybe our liberal, Atheistic values are not really wanted. But good God! When the Greatest Nation On The Face Of The Earth comes a knocking you need to open the door! If they can't understand that then how in the hell can we communicate through anything other than a huge bombing campaign? They'll thank us in the end and all this...unpleasantness will be forgotten. USA! USA! USA! USA!

[Armored Avenger]

We need to get back too discussing the actual book, not the political situation of the world.

[RobC]

Uh-huh. And why do you say that? Everything I said was true. The reason people hate this idea is because they feel sorry for these obscure goat farmers and rock-hoarders we're murdering in some far-off strip of sand. I mean, how in Gods name can you feel sorry for these people? They don't even shave! And you just know that, to them, a bath is a yearly luxury. You want to do some humanitarian work with these people? Take nose-plugs. And leave logic at the door because these sorts are really disenfreedomist. [i]REALLY/i] disenfreedomist. I mean, we bring them liberty and they STILL hate us! Can't they just get with the programme? I mean, sure, we probably killed tens of thousands of men, women and children. And maybe our liberal, Atheistic values are not really wanted. But good God! When the Greatest Nation On The Face Of The Earth comes a knocking you need to open the door! If they can't understand that then how in the hell can we communicate through anything other than a huge bombing campaign? They'll thank us in the end and all this...unpleasantness will be forgotten. USA! USA! USA! USA!

I get the feeling that this may indeed but an extremely clever satirical piece. If it is, bravo, it works on several levels, and I bought it for a short period.

If not, then, well...

Back to topic...

[Super_Ludacris]

Jesus is that what Miller was gonna name the Batman fights Al Quaeda book?

Holy Terror?...........................Really Franklin really?

Miller has lost it and is writing his garbage nowadays (although you can even argue if he ever had it to begin with) but this book sounds stupid as hell. Miller has never had that scope for touching on sensitive, multi aspect stories and characters and balancing that with action beats.
I love Batman but I could give a flying **** about the Goddamn/A-hole Batman going to a desert to kick some "A-rab ass".
Harsh? Maybe. Wrong? Possibly especially since I havent seen the preview panels as some have but after 300 graphic novel, DKSB and All-star, Miller gets the Bozack

[Super_Ludacris]

Okay so maybe I was being harsh on Franklin. A winter BBQ will make you rethink things like that.

Its just I've become so cold to what Frank writes nowadays and this seems like exactly the thing he could botch up and make outdatedly generic.


But we'll see, it could also be an out of nowhere return to form and something to inspire him..... The title still sounds cringingly bad though

[RobC]

It's a play on the 60's catchphrase I believe. I laughed when I first heard it, and thought it was quite clever.

This one'll either make him or break says I.

[Punch]

It's a play on the 60's catchphrase I believe. I laughed when I first heard it, and thought it was quite clever.

This one'll either make him or break says I.
That's exactly what it is and it is quite clever and amusing.

[MaskedManJRK]

I dunno, something tells me that this won't be just a regular propaganda piece. This is from the guy who seems to have the distinct pleasure of messing with his reader's heads. I mean, it was advertised that All-Star Batman would be a return to classic Batman stories and look what we got there.

Not to mention the guy isn't really a big fan of the conservatives either, what with Reagan being a villian in DKR and Bush being a halogram created by a maniacal and thug-like Lex Luthor and all.

Also, the talks of him being a racist and sexist is just plain bogus. The Mutants in the book were colored white, for Christ's sake.

As for sexism, look at Sin City--doesn't anyone notice that the characters that do the most harm to women are the ones that are the most epicly and extravagantly murdered? I think it's same to say that he writes those stories with women not just being equal, but better then men, the type that would inspire men to fight and die to protect them.

[CrimsonMist]

Its just I've become so cold to what Frank writes nowadays and this seems like exactly the thing he could botch up and make outdatedly generic.

But we'll see, it could also be an out of nowhere return to form and something to inspire him.....


This one'll either make him or break says I.

I agree. If Miller treats this as just another comic, with All Star style writing, it's gonna suck. And quite frankly, i'll be pissed off that i wasted money on it. And that's coming from a big Miller fan.

The subject matter's too touchy to just have Batman running around going "HAHAHA I'm the GODDAMN Batman. And You. You're terrorist scum! Scum. You're scum! HA!" ::punches guy in face:: "HAHA! Striking terror. Best part of the job! HA!"

so we'll have to wait and see. Again, an update would really be nice.

[RobC]

Yeah agreed, if it goes the way as All-Star then he'll have a mini crisis on his hands because of the sensitive subject matter. Part of me still thinks this could be awsome though.

God hope that Miller has the sense to handle it right...

[CrimsonMist]

Yeah agreed, if it goes the way as All-Star then he'll have a mini crisis on his hands because of the sensitive subject matter. Part of me still thinks this could be awsome though.

God hope that Miller has the sense to handle it right...

i think it'll be awsome in several ways, becuase it's Batman beating up terrorists, and if there's an iconic full page dedicated to Batman punching out Bin Laden(ala Captain America #1), i'll be a happy camper.

It's gonna be either

1. serious and really outstanding, thus showing Miller still has it.
2. Campy and dopey and "Goddamn Batman" and badass in that "All Star" way.
3. Just downright horrible.

Personally, i won't settle for anything EXCEPT #1.

I like All-Star, it's one of the only two books i'm currently buying(the other is The Spirit), but even though i like both All-Star and DKSA, there's something about both works that just don't settle with me. And it's something i don't want to find in Holy Terror.

Miller said that this book is his tribute to Gotham City, much like his Daredevil stuff was his tribute to New York City. Let's just hope he keeps his word.

[RobC]

Yeah I figure it'll be the first one, I really hope so anyways. I doubt we'll get the full page spread, it's nothing to do with bin-Laden from what I hear, just a Al-Quaeda cell operating in Gotham.

Hopefully it's more Y1 and DKR type dialogue than All-Star. I don't like the corny dialogue...

[TheBatman072]

Goddammit I can't wait for this.

[RobC]

What are you, dense? Retarded? It'll be here in goddamn 2008!

[Dirt Like Me]

What are you, dense? Retarded? It'll be here in goddamn 2008!

Do we know that for sure? I ask only because I assume most of Miller's time next year is going to be devoted to The Spirit movie. (Which is scheduled for release in January 2009).

I have to admit, the thought has crossed my mind that Holy Terror will end up the Chinese Democracy of graphic novels. But I really, really hope not.

(That said, the best case scenario would have the U.S. capture Bin Laden today and make the whole idea of the book irrelevant).

[Dangerous]

I am looking forward to this, Bats costume looks pretty weird in the preview art.
If it's black and white that would be nice...
I'm guessing it won't surface till 09 though, ugh.

Does anyone know what sorta timeline this story will be set in, is it a possible future of the DC Universe Batman? Like TDK?

[RobC]

Do we know that for sure? I ask only because I assume most of Miller's time next year is going to be devoted to The Spirit movie. (Which is scheduled for release in January 2009).

I have to admit, the thought has crossed my mind that Holy Terror will end up the Chinese Democracy of graphic novels. But I really, really hope not.

(That said, the best case scenario would have the U.S. capture Bin Laden today and make the whole idea of the book irrelevant).


Yet sadly he released another video statement today imploring violence against the so-called infidels. *Sigh*

Anyways... Yeah I think it is 2008, maybe September-ish time I guess. Once The Spirit has wrapped and finished it's cinema tour. Should be awsome!

[batmaluco]

I think this is one of those projects that is going to be pretty good or really bad. There's no middle term here.
I certainly hope it'll be the positive option. Let's wait and see.

[Da_Joka]

Or does Frank Miller still have it under wraps? I need pics!

[RobC]

Then wait until it comes out...

[BATS N' HORNETS]

i won't get it! IT WILL BE A CON... it will suck my big toe... BATMAN SHOULDN'T FIGHT TERRORISM... that is government territory! SOMETHING Superman would do! PERIOD!

[Kaizer]

i won't get it! IT WILL BE A CON... it will suck my big toe... BATMAN SHOULDN'T FIGHT TERRORISM... that is government territory! SOMETHING Superman would do! PERIOD!

If they come and **** things up in gotham, he better fight 'em!

[BATS N' HORNETS]

i dunno i don't think he should go overseas or anything, but if its like die-hard type terrorists who are pulling a bank job or something YEAH that's batman!

my point was Batman shouldn't fight the taliban or something like that!

he's not Captain America

[Kaizer]

i dunno i don't think he should go overseas or anything, but if its like die-hard type terrorists who are pulling a bank job or something YEAH that's batman!

my point was Batman shouldn't fight the taliban or something like that!

he's not Captain America

I believe the original quote from Miller said that it's a story of what would happen if Al Quaida came to Gotham city...pretty sure it'll be a crazy satire though, nothing really serious.

[gqxsensazn]

The subject matter's too touchy to just have Batman running around going "HAHAHA I'm the GODDAMN Batman. And You. You're terrorist scum! Scum. You're scum! HA!" ::punches guy in face:: "HAHA! Striking terror. Best part of the job! HA!"

so we'll have to wait and see. Again, an update would really be nice.

LOL, I could totally picture Frank Miller having Batman say that.

[Dirt Like Me]

LOL, I could totally picture Frank Miller having Batman say that.

Well, Miller did have Batman say that he enjoys striking terror, in DKSA.

Personally, while I'd like to read this, I'm not holding my breath. Unless I missed something, there hasn't been any news on this in a long, long time and Miller's directing movies now.

I wonder what will come out first: Axl Rose's Chinese Democracy or Holy Terror?

[CrimsonMist]

I wonder what will come out first: Axl Rose's Chinese Democracy or Holy Terror?

Hahaha.

Then again, Holy Terror's only been in the works for how long? A year or 2? As for Chinese Democracy, i'm a 19 year old College freshman. I remember hearing about that album when i was like 11. Crazy.

[Aristotle]

You know, I'm looking forward to this comic. I hate Miller but I love to see terrorist scum getting the royal piss taken out of them. Why should this be attacked? I'll tell you why: Because white liberals feel sorry for Poor Mother Palestine. Poor Mother Palestine who has money for bullets but not for bread. Idiots. It's time to fight back against these traitors and inbred racist dogs! Propaganda is a vital and important tool and these doubters should look at who the enemy is. Is it your government? Is it the soldiers in a foreign land dying to protect you? Or is it the bearded bastards who'd shoot you back to Turkmenistan given half the chance? Oh...decisions, decisions. I'll take Option C for 5000 points Alec. Let's be realistic about this, Miller's intentions are good. We are in the right. The scum are in the wrong. A bit of flag waving is just what we need. But hey, don't forget England Frankie. And don't use the comic book to take potshots at Christianity either. You're an Atheist. We get it. Grow up and start being a little more tolerant. Do you see me killing Muslims and Jews? No. Do I make it a point of honour to stone homosexuals in the street? Of course not! So stop being a bigot. This comic has potential, great potential and we don't need you mucking it up with you Dawkinsist rhetoric.I'm guessing there are no racist undertones in this either, am I right?

[MaskedManJRK]

Personally, while I'd like to read this, I'm not holding my breath. Unless I missed something, there hasn't been any news on this in a long, long time and Miller's directing movies now.

I think Spirit and Sin City is probably what caused a lot of the delays for this and All-Star, but I'm sure he's still doing Terror as well as the Nancy Sin City story and the dialogue for the Neil Adams Batman story.

[The Joker]

If Batman could go overseas in the 30's and 40's to fight Nazis, he can go overseas now to fight terrorists. I'm looking forward to it.

[RobC]

I agree, if there's a terrorist in Gotham, Batman is one who'll sort it out.

Yet again, we'll wait and see what Miller gives us!

[BATS N' HORNETS]

when did bats go oversees to fight nazi's ???? captain amerca ???

[The Joker]

when did bats go oversees to fight nazi's ???? captain amerca ???

Check out superdickery.com's Propaganda section. They're mostly of Superman, but you'll find some of Batman and Robin on battleships and fighting nazis and other such things. It's a classic theme for pretty much all superhero comics that were around at that era. Miller is just updating it, and probably making it much, much more extreme.

Here's an example...Batman SELLING WAR BONDS...That's somehow even more ludicrous than him actually fighting nazis physically, if you ask me...

http://www.superdickery.com/images/dick/216_4_008.jpg

EDIT

Here's an even better example. Batman overseas, firing a damned chaingun...

http://www.superdickery.com/images/propaganda/141_4_0000015.jpg

[RobC]

Fight the Japanazis. Love that.

Oh Batman, you and your propaganda!

[BATS N' HORNETS]

i love the concept of superman selling war bonds... THAT'S HILARIOUS... he's the one that could have ended the war in like a day, by capturing the vile dictators & bad generals & forcing countries to surrender...

THAT's FUNNY

[Super_Ludacris]

lol

[Sparta*]

Wow...I thought it was mostly Cap who was the propaganda whore....I guess I was wrong.

[RobC]

Everyone was a propaganda whore during WWII, none of us will ever understand life back then. There was a very real threat that Nazi-ism could rule the world. As in, it was like 51/49 in favour of the Allies. We came within months of Reich rule.

There isn't anything on this earth now that could threaten the way of life like Nazi's did.

[CrimsonMist]

Everyone was a propaganda whore during WWII, none of us will ever understand life back then. There was a very real threat that Nazi-ism could rule the world. As in, it was like 51/49 in favour of the Allies. We came within months of Reich rule.

There isn't anything on this earth now that could threaten the way of life like Nazi's did.

1st part: I think we're all too P.C. now. We can't actually say bad things about bad people, because, ya know...they're people too. They have feelings..:o

2nd part: All of you keep posting in this thread, making me think there are some updates that i'm unaware of! DAMN YOU ALL!!:oldrazz:

[Doctor Baywatch]

Check out superdickery.com's Propaganda section. They're mostly of Superman, but you'll find some of Batman and Robin on battleships and fighting nazis and other such things. It's a classic theme for pretty much all superhero comics that were around at that era. Miller is just updating it, and probably making it much, much more extreme.

Here's an example...Batman SELLING WAR BONDS...That's somehow even more ludicrous than him actually fighting nazis physically, if you ask me...

http://www.superdickery.com/images/dick/216_4_008.jpg

EDIT

Here's an even better example. Batman overseas, firing a damned chaingun...

http://www.superdickery.com/images/propaganda/141_4_0000015.jpg

But Batman and Superman never fought in the war. Those are propaganda covers. The only thing they would do is to fighting at the home front.

[RobC]

1st part: I think we're all too P.C. now. We can't actually say bad things about bad people, because, ya know...they're people too. They have feelings..:o

Pretty much exactly my feelings on the world. Miller's going to give us something new at least...

[batman_gr]

so when is this supposed to come out?

[Aristotle]

Everyone was a propaganda whore during WWII, none of us will ever understand life back then. There was a very real threat that Nazi-ism could rule the world. As in, it was like 51/49 in favour of the Allies. We came within months of Reich rule.

There isn't anything on this earth now that could threaten the way of life like Nazi's did.The threat the Nazis presented is frequently overrepresented. We were whipped into a frenzy to fight them by FDR, because he wanted to go save the Jews, which was fantastic, since some of my ancestors were in the camps. But there wasn't a threat nearly as imminent as people like to play it. The Russians were always going to win the war of attrition, for example. And Hitler was never going to make it all the way to the subjugation of England. The US slightly expedited what was already a done deal, thanks to Hitler's meddling in his commanders' efforts.

[Aristotle]

1st part: I think we're all too P.C. now. We can't actually say bad things about bad people, because, ya know...they're people too. They have feelings..:oYeah, it's so stupid of us to try and understand why our enemies do what they do, so we can maybe stop the root cause of problems. Especially when we are the root cause.

[RobC]

Actually Hitler never wanted Britain, he respected the country and it's military organization so much that it's thought he would have allowed it semi-autonomy under a Nazi rule.

The threat to the US was greatly hyped, agreed with that, Hitler was never going to take America, but the threat he posed to Europe was very, very real.

[The Guard]

America didn't get into WWII to save the Jews. It's been my understanding that America got into WWII to save it's economic interests, which, up until then, hadn't been THAT threatened by what was going on in Europe. Which is my, as is also my understanding, America and the rest of the superpowers allowed what was going on there to go on.

[Micah12345]

Batman, compared to the other comics of the golden age, never really got sucked into the propoganda war monologue. If he was involved in any way, it was only advocating war bonds on the covers. Otherwise, the batman mythology was already established and paradoxically it remained successful more because of it's consistency (at the time) rather than the fluidity that most people characterize batman's history as a whole with.

[RobC]

America didn't get into WWII to save the Jews. It's been my understanding that America got into WWII to save it's economic interests, which, up until then, hadn't been THAT threatened by what was going on in Europe. Which is my, as is also my understanding, America and the rest of the superpowers allowed what was going on there to go on.

Yeah that's also true, and when the Japanese who were aligned with the Nazi Party bombed Pearl Harbour, that was the match to the fuel if you know what I mean.

Basically, the Nazi's wanted Europe, and got pretty close to it, America got involved after pressure from prominent Jews, and Pearl Harbour.

[Nepenthes]

Does anyone know of any issues where Batman actually went to fight the Nazi's within the pages? There's plenty of covers but I don't think I've ever actually seen any pages. which is weird.

I know Millers politics but I still don't think this is going to be straight up "propaganda". I'd be surprised if this was just DKR Batman in the Middle East.

[Aristotle]

America didn't get into WWII to save the Jews. It's been my understanding that America got into WWII to save it's economic interests, which, up until then, hadn't been THAT threatened by what was going on in Europe. Which is my, as is also my understanding, America and the rest of the superpowers allowed what was going on there to go on.That is another example of the de-heroification of American history. Even as most history textbooks and pop-history outlets heroify "great white men" in history, they deliberately downplay the people who are conventionally seen as heroes of a humanitarian nature, like Lincoln and FDR.

We get hero-worship for Eisenhower and Reagan, who were in reality two of the most controversial and probably disastrous Presidents, while people like Lincoln and FDR and LBJ are dragged through the dirt at every turn, or at the very least made to be less heroic and more savvy political operatives. But the fact is, FDR and his administration wanted to save the Jews, but they didn't have the nation's support. Similarly, Lincoln wanted to free the slaves, but couldn't declare war on the South on such a flimsy pretext. Another example is Johnson, whose domestic achievements are frequently overshadowed by a war that he inherited and didn't want to be involved in.

[Nepenthes]

uh I don't really see FDR and Lincoln dragged through the mud to the extent that you make it seem. It's not a very public conversation at least. As far as I'm aware I agree with the rest, there's was actually alot more anti-jewish sentiment within the higher circles of American and British society/government than many people would like to believe.

[Aristotle]

Does anyone know of any issues where Batman actually went to fight the Nazi's within the pages? There's plenty of covers but I don't think I've ever actually seen any pages. which is weird.No, I don't ever remember him going. And since he was only an honorary member of the Justice Society, he wouldn't have gone with them either.

[Aristotle]

uh I don't really see FDR and Lincoln dragged through the mud to the extent that you make it seem.There are several "conspiracy" nonfiction books about FDR basically allowing Pearl Harbor to happen, never considering the question of why he would have done so. It's become quite popular among deconstructionist historians to label Lincoln a racist who was only trying to hold on to territory and cashed in on Abolitionism along the way, even though the very idea is nonsensical, given the political climate of the time.

[Nepenthes]

yeah for sure there'll always be opposing views whether it be it on the fringes or wherever, but at least with FDR and Lincoln they don't seem to find that much traction in the broader common perception outside of the circles of historians and political commentators I mean. For instance when they're published in a general newspaper or magazine they're generally framed as a disessenting or "emerging yet potentially shakey" points of view.

[Aristotle]

I don't know, I guess maybe I hang out with a different circle. Seems like whenever those guys come up in conversation, everyone's falling over themselves to de-heroify them. But somehow the facts about Reagan are dismissed as crackpot class warfare.

[theMan-Bat]

Quotes from Alan Moore and Frank Miller on the subject:

"Have you seen Frank Miller's latest idea? It is - and I can hardly believe this - Batman vs Al Qaeda. What can you say to an idea as absurd as that? This is our response to thew the Iraq war?" - Alan Moore.

"I wish that the entertainers of our time had the spine and the focus that the ones who faced down Hitler did. Superman punched out Hitler. So did Captain America. These are symbols of our people, of our country. These are our folk heroes. It just seems kind of silly to be chasing around the Riddler when you've got al-Qaeda out there. Are they really going to be up against Toyman again? Are they really going to be saving damn cats from damn trees? Batman is going to go out and kick al-Qaeda's butt." - Frank Miller.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm180/thebat-/displaycgi1.jpghttp://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm180/thebat-/tmpphpYGFdPD.jpg

[Aristotle]

About what I'd expect from each of them, I suppose. And Moore's right, as one might expect he would be.

[theMan-Bat]

About what I'd expect from each of them, I suppose. And Moore's right, as one might expect he would be.

Really? You think Moore is right? This isn't about the Iraq war. Can we stop calling Bush's Iraq war the War on Terror? It isn’t. I agree with Miller. I don't have a problem with Batman beating the living crap out of Osama Bin Laden. Nothing wrong with wanting to see the terrorists who killed 3,000 people get their ass kicked.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm180/thebat-/ap_batman_bin_laden_060214_sp.jpg

[RobC]

I don't think this thread is neccesarily the place to be discussing George Bush's policy on pre-emptive attacks.

But since it's here, here's my thoughts.

Basically, the Iraq war was sold to most of the public as 'Saddam is a very dangerous man, and has nukes, so the world isn't safe. Therefore we've got to take him out (of power)'

Now whilst I agree with this 100%, it is now the truth that no weapons of mass destruction were found within Iraq. At all. Now the debate on whether Iraq is better off without a tyranical dictator could rage all day, so i'll just say, and this has been my position for years, that although Saddam Hussein did indeed need to be removed from power, the pretext of invading because of a specific threat, is now found to be a lie. Therefore the war is unjustified in the original pretext.

Please don't flame me to death...

[batman_gr]

nobody should flame you to death.
the whole world knew about the whole weapon thing. only america didn't. I swear there are things about this war that americans probably don't know at all. We heard the news first in Europe without any censorship.You heard them in terms of propaganda and censorship. Nobody told America that the war isn't working out quite good for them . It took almost 2 years untill you learned the truth,and I have a feeling there are more for you to know. Now I'm not an expert neither do I know a great deal of things about it, but it's sad this whole war thing. It turned out to be a new Vietnam for America. I'm not sorry for Bush I actually hate him. I feel sorry for all the dead soldiers and their families. I never cried so hard as I did on "Farheneit 11/9" when that mother read the last letter of her son before he died. Thousands died. For what? For America (and when I say America I mean the government and not the people) to get her hands on oil sources and have the monopoly on "black gold".

Anyway, sorry for the long post, let's just keep this on FM - HTB. It's good to see him back on the Batman franchise (scr^w ASB&R) but I have a feeling he did it because of the number of zeros in his check. I'll buy it, but he's not doing it for the love of it. That's how I feel.
Sorry for the "a-thousand-miles" post.

[Aristotle]

Really? You think Moore is right? This isn't about the Iraq war. Can we stop calling Bush's Iraq war the War on Terror? It isn’t. I agree with Miller. I don't have a problem with Batman beating the living crap out of Osama Bin Laden. Nothing wrong with wanting to see the terrorists who killed 3,000 people get their ass kicked.It's simplistic. It incorrectly suggests that the best response to 9/11 should be beating the crap out of someone. And that's just a stupid, childish, wrongheaded idea. The best response to 9/11 is to first and foremost wake up and realize that our decades of abusing the Middle East and Latin America are starting to bear fruit. We are reaping what we have sown, and if we don't take steps to change our foreign policies, and indeed our selfish, greedy way of life, we are going to see a lot more angry people doing a lot more angry things.

And after we work on figuring out why people are doing these things, and shift ourselves so that there is less of an impetus for them, that's when it's time to beat the crap out of people that are still doing it. That's when we'll have separated out the true hatemongers from the desperate.

[theMan-Bat]

It's simplistic. It incorrectly suggests that the best response to 9/11 should be beating the crap out of someone. And that's just a stupid, childish, wrongheaded idea. The best response to 9/11 is to first and foremost wake up and realize that our decades of abusing the Middle East and Latin America are starting to bear fruit. We are reaping what we have sown, and if we don't take steps to change our foreign policies, and indeed our selfish, greedy way of life, we are going to see a lot more angry people doing a lot more angry things.

I have no sympathy for al-Qaeda. Osama Bin Laden has shown himself to be nothing more than a murderous dog. The Islamic extremists hate us for who we are. They hate our culture, our freedoms. Americans are told to convert to Islam or "suffer the consequences."

And after we work on figuring out why people are doing these things, and shift ourselves so that there is less of an impetus for them, that's when it's time to beat the crap out of people that are still doing it. That's when we'll have separated out the true hatemongers from the desperate.

Al-Qaeda attacks America as "the Great Satan" who must be destroyed for "polluting the world with its pornography." Al-Qaeda says Americans must convert to Islam, and follow the strict Muslim dress code, "Decide today, because today could be your last day."

[JokerLedger]

I have no sympathy for al-Qaeda. Osama Bin Laden has shown himself to be nothing more than a murderous dog. The Islamic extremists hate us for who we are. They hate our culture, our freedoms. Americans are told to convert to Islam or "suffer the consequences."



Al-Qaeda attacks America as "the Great Satan" who must be destroyed for "polluting the world with its pornography." Al-Qaeda says Americans must convert to Islam, and follow the strict Muslim dress code, "Decide today, because today could be your last day."

I've got to disagree with you. They don't hate us because of who we are, what our culture is, and because of our freedoms. They hate us because WE are over there in their country. Think about it this way... would Americans like it if the Chinese occupied our country and told us what to do? Hellno.

[theMan-Bat]

I've got to disagree with you. They don't hate us because of who we are, what our culture is, and because of our freedoms.

Al-Qaeda says otherwise.

http://arabracismislamofascism.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/islamists-convert-or-die/

Osama Bin Laden believes that he has a divine right from God to impose his will on others. Osama Bin Laden believes that the West must convert to his extreme version of Islam, by force if necessary. He has called for a Holy War against the U.S. He has called on all Muslims to kill any Americans and Jews that they can.

[bestever23]

^ that's why I can't wait to see batman beat the crap out of them

[Aristotle]

I have no sympathy for al-Qaeda.Not asking you to. But ask yourself this: if a massive cultural force had forced itself upon your nation and taken it over; had driven down wages and wrecked the economy; had forced a drastically different culture upon your people; had installed dictators into the government; had pillaged everything worth taking from you and your people...what would you do?

On second thought, don't answer that. I don't want to hear the mouth of comfort try to answer the problem of desperation.

Osama Bin Laden has shown himself to be nothing more than a murderous dog.A murderous dog that we made. People like you thought he was the cat's damned meow back when he was on your leash, fighting the other infidels. And then he turns on us and does exactly what anyone with a mind could have predicted, and we're surprised?

The Islamic extremists hate us for who we are. They hate our culture, our freedoms.You're so ignorant it's almost not worth trying to educate you. They don't "hate our freedoms." They hate us because we've been ruining their nations for close to a century.

[Aristotle]

Al-Qaeda says otherwise.

http://arabracismislamofascism.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/islamists-convert-or-die/
I see you bothered to do unbiased research.

Osama Bin Laden believes that he has a divine right from God to impose his will on others. Osama Bin Laden believes that the West must convert to his extreme version of Islam, by force if necessary. He has called for a Holy War against the U.S. He has called on all Muslims to kill any Americans and Jews that they can.Osama bin Laden is a crazy man who only got as far as he did because we legitimized him. The people who actually do the dirty deeds are the ones I'm talking about. They don't give a **** if Americans have freedoms or not. They want their homes back. They want their families to not live in extreme poverty and fear. They want, as chilling and sick as it sounds, to live in peace, just like we do. And they're doing the exact same things we've been doing for a century to achieve that.

[Carmine Falcone]

How long has Miller been working on this? I want to read this ****er.

[Punch]

Batman should be allowed to beat up terrorists. It's not Batman going to Iraq, it's Batman fighting terrorists who are trying to blow up Gotham. It's that simple.

[The Only Woj]

I see you bothered to do unbiased research.

Osama bin Laden is a crazy man who only got as far as he did because we legitimized him. The people who actually do the dirty deeds are the ones I'm talking about. They don't give a **** if Americans have freedoms or not. They want their homes back. They want their families to not live in extreme poverty and fear. They want, as chilling and sick as it sounds, to live in peace, just like we do. And they're doing the exact same things we've been doing for a century to achieve that.

Depends what you mean by 'they'. There are groups IN the United States that advocate Sharia law. What about all the loons that take to the streets when someone writes an article or, gasp, a comic strip that belittles Islam? Or students in Islamic schools in NYC that, when interviewed, advocated suicide bombings as acceptable martyrdom and that those who do would be fast-tracked to Paradise? Maybe they're in the minority, but that doesn't mean there are a lot of people out there who do blame America for their problems in their country. Or for standing by Israel since they want that land back (to fufil their end-time prophecy). Have you ever look at the numbers of those (in the Middle East) who even believe Bin Laden planned 9/11? it's like 20%. Many think it was the US or a secret plot by, gasp again, Israeli agents as to push the US to war.

We made Osama popular just like we made the Columbine killers popular, so it's not shocking for people to want to emulate him.

As for Iraq, we shouldn't be policing the world. There are a lot of dictators out there that probably should be knocked off. But we had bad intelligence. The blame shouldn't be on Bush. It should be on the intelligence agencies. They botched the intel leading up to 9/11. They botched Iraq. And now they can't be trusted for sure on Iran ... though, knocking off their leaders wouldn't be as horrible as you might think, since the people are far more moderate than their government.

:bh:

[theMan-Bat]

Not asking you to. But ask yourself this: if a massive cultural force had forced itself upon your nation and taken it over; had driven down wages and wrecked the economy; had forced a drastically different culture upon your people; had installed dictators into the government; had pillaged everything worth taking from you and your people...what would you do?

I wouldn't fly planes into buildings killing 3,000 innocent civilians.

A murderous dog that we made.

The boneheads in charge of the Reagan administration can be blamed for supplying arms to Osama bin Laden and other Arab volunteers in 1986, however, we can't be blamed for Osama bin Laden's terrorist actions in the name of Islam and his radical Muslim beliefs. No one is controlling Osama bin Laden, he is acting out of his own free will.

You're so ignorant it's almost not worth trying to educate you.

It isn't news to me that poverty and a feeling of powerlessness in the region helps the recruitment for al-Qaeda. Osama bin Laden, like Adolf Hitler before him, takes advantage of the poor and hungry in the region to recruit, seduce, control and gain power.

They don't "hate our freedoms."

Yes, they do. They hate our "culture of pornography" and say we must convert to Islam.

They hate us because we've been ruining their nations for close to a century.

No excuse for flying planes into buildings killing 3,000 innocent civilians and using children for suicide bombings on innocent civilians in the name of Islam.

[souloffire]

I've got to disagree with you. They don't hate us because of who we are, what our culture is, and because of our freedoms. They hate us because WE are over there in their country. Think about it this way... would Americans like it if the Chinese occupied our country and told us what to do? Hellno.I wasn't aware that Al-Qaeda had a country.

[Aristotle]

Depends what you mean by 'they'. There are groups IN the United States that advocate Sharia law.And there are groups IN the United States that similarly advocate a twisted version of Old Testament law. Not really that different.

What about all the loons that take to the streets when someone writes an article or, gasp, a comic strip that belittles Islam?Satirizing religion is a dangerous game. It's best done by a member of the religion. Otherwise, it can come off as very mean-spirited. George Carlin is hard on religions in general, but he's hardest on Catholicism, because he was born a Catholic. The guys on the Axis of Evil Comedy Tour brilliantly make fun of Islam. David Cross and about a jillion other Jewish comedians give Judaism a hard time. But when George Carlin starts making Jewish jokes, that's gonna taste a little sour. Kinda like how white people can't say n****r.

Furthermore, making fun of Islam in a prominent newspaper at a time when Islam is in a state of great turmoil and violent outrage is just a stupid idea. Especially when a lot of that turmoil is taking place in the country where the cartoon was published. That's like Israeli soldiers running around jerking off on the Qu'ran. Doesn't solve anything.

Or students in Islamic schools in NYC that, when interviewed, advocated suicide bombings as acceptable martyrdom and that those who do would be fast-tracked to Paradise?Well, I certainly think they're wrong and misguided, but the fact of the matter is that this brand of Islam took root around the world because of the abuse that the West heaped upon predominantly Islamic nations. We can diffuse this brand of Islam by repairing that damage.

Maybe they're in the minority, but that doesn't mean there are a lot of people out there who do blame America for their problems in their country.They blame America for the problems in their country because America is at the root of those problems. We prop up the dictators. We pillage their wealth. We contribute to their oppression.

Or for standing by Israel since they want that land back (to fufil their end-time prophecy).The Christians only want Israel to fulfill their end-time prophecy, and that's why America supports Israel. Furthermore, most Palestinians actually just want back the homes that were taken from their grandparents. There are so many refugee families around the world that Amman, Jordan is now populated by more Palestinians than Jordanians. Israeli commandos forced Palestinians to leave at gunpoint, promising them that they could return when it was safe. The Palestinians are still waiting for that promise to be made good upon.

We made Osama popular just like we made the Columbine killers popular, so it's not shocking for people to want to emulate him.It's actually really different. We made Osama popular by funding his war. And we made him even more popular by giving people a reason to be angry at us. Desperate people do desperate things, and that often means stupid things, and the stupid thing that the desperate people in the Middle East did was throw in with a guy who's just as bad as we are.

There are a lot of dictators out there that probably should be knocked off.Which we put into place, almost to a man.

But we had bad intelligence. The blame shouldn't be on Bush. It should be on the intelligence agencies. They botched the intel leading up to 9/11. They botched Iraq. And now they can't be trusted for sure on Iran ... though, knocking off their leaders wouldn't be as horrible as you might think, since the people are far more moderate than their government.The intel agencies were pressured to give the President what he wanted. They were wrong to give in to that pressure, but he was wrong to apply it. He and his goons wanted a reason to attack Iraq since before he was even the President, and that's well-documented.

[Aristotle]

I wouldn't fly planes into buildings killing 3,000 innocent civilians.You would lash out violently. It's obvious, because that's your reaction to the 9/11 attacks. When someone ****s with your country, you fight back. That's what they're doing, too. And guess what? The both of you are dead wrong.

It isn't news to me that poverty and a feeling of powerlessness in the region helps the recruitment for al-Qaeda. Osama bin Laden, like Adolf Hitler before him, takes advantage of the poor and hungry in the region to recruit, seduce, control and gain power.Poverty doesn't just materialize. That's poverty that we created. You and I, by living as well as we do and not working to change the system, maintain it every day.

No excuse for flying planes into buildings killing 3,000 innocent civilians and using children for suicide bombings on innocent civilians in the name of Islam.And those things aren't an excuse for bombing Iraqi and Afghan civilians, but we did it anyway, didn't we?

[JokerLedger]

I wasn't aware that Al-Qaeda had a country.

I wasn't aware I wa sbeing vague. Oops.

[Doctor Baywatch]

..........

[Doctor Baywatch]

Poverty doesn't just materialize. That's poverty that we created. You and I, by living as well as we do and not working to change the system, maintain it every day.

Are you saying that poverty around the world was and is created by the USA or the "west" :huh::huh::huh:

Those terrorist leaders are all rich and could use their for their own people's benefit. But no. They don't.

why do almost all terrorists from the islamic countries?

[theMan-Bat]

You would lash out violently. It's obvious, because that's your reaction to the 9/11 attacks. When someone ****s with your country, you fight back. That's what they're doing, too. And guess what? The both of you are dead wrong.

Can we let the al-Qaeda terrorists go free? Of course not. The terrorists who killed 3,000 innocent civilians can't be allowed to be free to attack us again.

And those things aren't an excuse for bombing Iraqi and Afghan civilians, but we did it anyway, didn't we?

Bush and his cohorts (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice - the whole lot) should be impeached, tried convicted and imprisoned for war crimes over the Iraq war. The Bush administration lied about the threat Saddam Hussein posed to the world.

[Go God Go!]

What the ****?

Shut up, all of you. Politics belong in the bedroom, along with your father's gay sex partners and your mother's vibrator.

[Superhobo]

Political discussion is fun, though - for us, the spectators, especially, because we get to watch a spectacle equal to two armless wrestlers just going at it.

[Nepenthes]

Shut up, all of you. Politics belong in the bedroom,

Not really. Look at the title of this thread. This discussion was always going to happen and it's going to continue for a long time. So it should.


along with your father's gay sex partners and your mother's vibrator.

it's your jack off fantasies that really don't belong in here

[Aristotle]

Are you saying that poverty around the world was and is created by the USA or the "west" :huh::huh::huh:That's exactly what I'm saying. Do your research.

Those terrorist leaders are all rich and could use their for their own people's benefit. But no. They don't.Yes, they're bastards too, but we can't control them. We can only control our own actions. And we've been systematically wrecking cultures in the Middle East for decades, and stealing from the people. Time to take responsibility for what we have wrought, and make it right.

why do almost all terrorists from the islamic countries?Because Islamic countries are the ones we've been ruining. And the violent response is wrong, but on the other hand, look at how well the nonviolent response has worked for Latin Americans. We've done the same things to their countries that we've done the Middle East, and the response of the Mexican and Guatemalan populations has largely been to just come to America and try to do honest work for an honest wage and make back some of the money that we stole. And what do they get in return? They get deported, they get beaten up, they get murdered (and the cops never investigate the murder of an illegal), and they get vilified. So clearly the nonviolent response to Western abuse doesn't work. Is it any surprise that some of our victims have chosen violence?

[Aristotle]

Can we let the al-Qaeda terrorists go free? Of course not.We don't actually have the authority to arrest anyone unless they commit a crime on U.S. soil, or help contribute to a crime committed on U.S. soil. That means we don't have any authority to arrest the vast majority of al Qaeda terrorists. We also didn't have any authority to go to war against Afghanistan and Iraq, since they had not aggressed against us in any way, and had not contributed to aggression against us in any way.

The terrorists who killed 3,000 innocent civilians can't be allowed to be free to attack us again.The terrorists who killed 3,000 innocent* civilians ARE DEAD ALREADY. They killed themselves.

*"innocent" only in the sense that they committed no actual crime, very guilty in the sense that they were working in the center of financial domination and abuse of the American empire

[Aristotle]

What the ****?

Shut up, all of you. Politics belong in the bedroom, along with your father's gay sex partners and your mother's vibrator.Just because you're unAmerican doesn't mean the rest of us have to be.

[sclabguy]

i don't really care about politics anymore, i'd prefer if they (meaning only presidential crap) stay away from art... but whatever i'd read something by frank miller any day even though DKSA sucked

[theMan-Bat]

We don't actually have the authority to arrest anyone unless they commit a crime on U.S. soil, or help contribute to a crime committed on U.S. soil.

More than 3,000 civilians were murdered on 9/11 by al-Qaeda terrorists, on United States soil. Al-Qaeda threatens more attacks on U.S. soil. Attacks they promise will be bigger than 9/11. In the wake of the attacks on 9/11, the crime of terrorist threats alone has become an even more serious offense than it used to be. Plus there have been many attempts at more attacks and plans for more attacks on U.S. soil by al-Qaeda. Examples:

Al-Qaeda terrorist Richard Colvin Reid (also known as Abdul Raheem) attempted to detonate a commercial airplane in-flight using plastic explosives contained in his shoes in 2002. He was arrested. Also al-Qaeda had intended Reid to hijack a fifth aircraft and crash it into the White House as part of the 9/11 attacks.

Al-Qaeda planned to release deadly poisonous hydrogen-cyanide gas in New York's subway system in 2003. U.S. intelligence learned of the plot from the contents of a laptop computer belonging to a al-Qaeda terrorist captured in Saudi Arabia early in 2003.

Al Qaeda leaders planned to employ various types of fuel trucks as vehicle-borne improvised explosive devices in an effort to cause mass casualties in the U.S. The attacks were planned specifically for New York, Chicago and Los Angeles in 2005, either simultaneously or spread out. The attackers are members of small al-Qaeda cells which are spread out through the U.S. U.S. intelligence learned of the plot from coded instructions passing around al-Qaeda's internet sites.

United States Congress were targets of assassination attempts by al-Qaeda. Al Qaeda operatives were in the execution phase of some of their operations. The targets were New York City and Washington. U.S. intelligence learned of the plot from a phone tip by intelligence reports gathered from human and electronic sources around the world.

Al-Qaeda had been preparing a series of attacks on U.S. shopping malls in Los Angeles and Chicago during the christmas shopping season in 2007, and had been planning the attacks for the past two years. U.S. intelligence learned of the plot from a mole that had access to al-Qaeda.

Sooner or later there will be more al-Qaeda attacks on U.S. soil if they are not stopped.

The terrorists who killed 3,000 innocent* civilians ARE DEAD ALREADY. They killed themselves.

The 19 al-Qaeda hijackers are dead - they were just al-Qaeda foot soldiers carrying out orders. The al-Qaeda leaders are the masterminds of the 9/11 attacks - the organizing, planning, training, positioning and funding of the al-Qaeda cells for the attacks - they are not dead. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - former head of al-Qaeda's military committee and Ali Abdul Aziz Ali - former al-Qaeda leader who played an important role in the financial transfers involved in the 9/11 attacks - were both captured and arrested in 2003. However - Osama bin Laden - the founder, commander and Senior Operations Chief of al-Qaeda - is still at large. Ayman al-Zawahiri - al-Qaeda's Deputy Operations Chief - is still at large. Sheikh Said - Bin Laden's brother-in-law and al-Qaeda's financial controller. He wired money to Mohammed Atta, ringleader of the hijackers, shortly before the 9/11 attacks. He is still at large. Saif al-Adel - Bin Laden's security chief. He trained some of the 9/11 hijackers. He is still at large. Abu Mohammed al-Masri - He ran the al-Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan. He is still at large. Sulaiman Abu Ghaith - Nominal al-Qaeda spokesman. He is still at large. Ahu Hamza al-Muhajir- the new leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq - is still at large.

*"innocent" only in the sense that they committed no actual crime, very guilty in the sense that they were working in the center of financial domination and abuse of the American empire

Those were innocent civilians killed in those four planes and in those two buildings - including children, and 343 firefighters.

[sclabguy]

Are we gonna see some art to this book soon??

[Go God Go!]

Just because you're unAmerican doesn't mean the rest of us have to be.
Pfft. Your dad having gay sex partners is as American as you can get.

Seriously though, this conversation is quite off topic. If you want to discuss actual politics, we have a whole board for it. PMs are an option too.

Or do you need me to get my close, personal friend Master Bruce to come in here and tell you the exact same thing, but do it while impersonating Adam West?

[RobC]

Nice one Go God Go, you showed us all a valuable lesson.

Asshat.

[Punch]

Are we gonna see some art to this book soon??
There is art from the book out there and it looks fantastic. I posted it early in this thread, it's a video.

I just don't get it what the problem is here. Grant Morrison said
Cheering on a fictional character as he beats up fictionalized terrorists seems like a decadent indulgence when real terrorists are killing real people in the real world.Gee Grant, Is it ok for Batman to go after rapists and murderers? Aren't those real world issues? Is it Ok for a comic to include a cure for AIDS, when real people are dying form the disease? Or what about a comic that depicts a real life person being raped with a monster from another dimension?

[Cobblepot]

Fact is, this book would have had a media frenzy 1 year ago. Creating even more reactions then the Danish cartoon. I dunno if that would have done any good, but it sure would have put Batman back on the map.

[Punch]

Fact is, this book would have had a media frenzy 1 year ago. Creating even more reactions then the Danish cartoon. I dunno if that would have done any good, but it sure would have put Batman back on the map.
I don't think that's true. Depicting terrorists is a long way from depicting Allah himself. Whenever this book comes out there will be a media frenzy though.

[Cobblepot]

Knowing Miller he's likely to name Al Qaida in the book (or DC will have him name them differently). Not sure if he would draw a link towards Muslims (and I ain't saying I am!!), but if he does all hell would have been loose a year ago. Not if they release it in a few months or even a year from now.

[Aristotle]

Examples:

Al-Qaeda terrorist Richard Colvin Reid (also known as Abdul Raheem) attempted to detonate a commercial airplane in-flight using plastic explosives contained in his shoes in 2002. He was arrested. Also al-Qaeda had intended Reid to hijack a fifth aircraft and crash it into the White House as part of the 9/11 attacks.

Al-Qaeda planned to release deadly poisonous hydrogen-cyanide gas in New York's subway system in 2003. U.S. intelligence learned of the plot from the contents of a laptop computer belonging to a al-Qaeda terrorist captured in Saudi Arabia early in 2003.

Al Qaeda leaders planned to employ various types of fuel trucks as vehicle-borne improvised explosive devices in an effort to cause mass casualties in the U.S. The attacks were planned specifically for New York, Chicago and Los Angeles in 2005, either simultaneously or spread out. The attackers are members of small al-Qaeda cells which are spread out through the U.S. U.S. intelligence learned of the plot from coded instructions passing around al-Qaeda's internet sites.

United States Congress were targets of assassination attempts by al-Qaeda. Al Qaeda operatives were in the execution phase of some of their operations. The targets were New York City and Washington. U.S. intelligence learned of the plot from a phone tip by intelligence reports gathered from human and electronic sources around the world.

Al-Qaeda had been preparing a series of attacks on U.S. shopping malls in Los Angeles and Chicago during the christmas shopping season in 2007, and had been planning the attacks for the past two years. U.S. intelligence learned of the plot from a mole that had access to al-Qaeda.

Sooner or later there will be more al-Qaeda attacks on U.S. soil if they are not stopped.So arrest people who commit or conspire to commit crimes. Fine. I didn't say that was wrong. But lashing out in violence at sovereign nations is as wrong when we do it as it is when they do it.

[deathfromabove]

something about an implication of sexual intimacy between carrie kelley and bruce and something else about the mutants being racial cyphers for black youth

where do you get any of this? you want to back that up or are you usually in the practice of coming to conclusions with no proof? because im not a big fan of the george w bush method of drawing conclusions. (making up your mind and then trying to find evidence to support your side after the fact, for the dim witted members)

and fyi, what you said about miller is libel. look it up.

[deathfromabove]

So arrest people who commit or conspire to commit crimes. Fine. I didn't say that was wrong. But lashing out in violence at sovereign nations is as wrong when we do it as it is when they do it.

i agree with this but the rest of your opinions are unfounded nonsense.

[Aristotle]

where do you get any of this? you want to back that up or are you usually in the practice of coming to conclusions with no proof? because im not a big fan of the george w bush method of drawing conclusions. (making up your mind and then trying to find evidence to support your side after the fact, for the dim witted members)I got it from reading a huge body of Miller's work, and conflating it with what his stated opinions are. It's easy to read between the lines of the words of a dyed-in-the-wool conservative (which is what his kind of libertarian invariably is.)

and fyi, what you said about miller is libel. look it up.It's not. I'm interpreting literature and discussing value/moral/ethic questions. He could NOT get me for libel.

[deathfromabove]

I got it from reading a huge body of Miller's work, and conflating it with what his stated opinions are. It's easy to read between the lines of the words of a dyed-in-the-wool conservative (which is what his kind of libertarian invariably is.)

It's not. I'm interpreting literature and discussing value/moral/ethic questions. He could NOT get me for libel.

well he wouldn't bother because you are a complete nobody. if you were a well known journalist and you said those things it would a different story. you said those words about the man, not the work.

and im not going to deny there are some unsavory undertones in miller's work. i would not blame a sensitive reader for expressing distaste at some of his female portrayals. but the two above examples are reaching way outside the scope of unbiased critique. not to mention the mutant reference is patently false and the robin one is an over the top attempt at sensationalism.

[metropolitanpsy]

so wait wut religion is batman?

[Nepenthes]

most likely lapsed Catholic or Episcopalian

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Batman.html
http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Joker.html

[RobC]

Well I think this thread has certainly taken a turn for the worst. Yay.

[sclabguy]

most likely lapsed Catholic or Episcopalian

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Batman.html
http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Joker.html

the joker has to be atheist

[Cobblepot]

Or a muslim, katholic...whatever.

I mean, who cares what they believe in.

[theMan-Bat]

the joker has to be atheist

The Joker is satanic. There's a Joker three parter where Joker is devilworshipping in Batman #544-546. Scary as hell stuff.

[CaptainStacy]

So arrest people who commit or conspire to commit crimes. Fine. I didn't say that was wrong. But lashing out in violence at sovereign nations is as wrong when we do it as it is when they do it.

Wasnt Afganistan the biggest terrorist training camp in the world? I remember seeing an expose' of it YEARS before 9/11...

[theMan-Bat]

Wasnt Afganistan the biggest terrorist training camp in the world? I remember seeing an expose' of it YEARS before 9/11...

Abu Mohammed al-Masri ran the al-Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan.

[CrimsonMist]

Well I think this thread has certainly taken a turn for the worst. Yay.

Indeed.

Anyone know if Miller said anything about this at the NY Comic Con?

[CaptainClown]

I came in to talk about Frank Miller's Holy Terror, and found um stuff.

[theMan-Bat]

Indeed.

Anyone know if Miller said anything about this at the NY Comic Con?

Yes, he did. Miller told Entertainment Weekly at New York's Comic Con "I've got about 122 pages done of my next book. It's my love letter to New York."

[RobC]

Cool, we might see it soon then :)

[Aristotle]

Wasnt Afganistan the biggest terrorist training camp in the world?No, it was a sovereign nation that did not attack us, and under international law was not liable for 9/11 until we could prove that they were part of a conspiracy to commit that crime. We have that evidence now, but we didn't wait for it.

[RobC]

Not really a sovereign nation, it was ruled by many war-lords, militia, and tribal leaders, but otherwise, that is correct. The Afghan invasion was a case of invade now, get proof later. But, unlike Iraq, they got the crucial proof.

[CrimsonMist]

Yes, he did. Miller told Entertainment Weekly at New York's Comic Con "I've got about 122 pages done of my next book. It's my love letter to New York."

didn't he say that the last time? No updates or anything? I understand he's busy with The Spirit, but still.

[theMan-Bat]

He's a busy man. Miller also announced to Publishers Weekly at New York's Comic Con that he would “finish it in the next few months.”

[CrimsonMist]

He's a busy man. Miller also announced to Publishers Weekly at New York's Comic Con that he would “finish it in the next few months.”

So i guess we're gonna get this some time in '09 then.

[Riven]

I find myself looking forward to this only to satisfy my curiousity as to exactly HOW BAD it'll be...

Everything I've heard Frank Miller say about this series makes me shudder and considering his track record of writing spectacular trainwrecks of comics the last decade (the later Sin City books, DKSA, All-Star), my expectations for this are as low as can be, yet I can't wait to find out... A very strange feeling! :o

[CrimsonMist]

I find myself looking forward to this only to satisfy my curiousity as to exactly HOW BAD it'll be...

Everything I've heard Frank Miller say about this series makes me shudder and considering his track record of writing spectacular trainwrecks of comics the last decade (the later Sin City books, DKSA, All-Star), my expectations for this are as low as can be, yet I can't wait to find out... A very strange feeling! :o

Well, i REALLY REALLY hope that Frank Miller understands that the topic that he'll be writing about is really touchy. So i hope that his writing is up to par with his older, great works. So in that case, if it still sucks, it sucks because perhaps it offended the political beliefs of the reader.

If Frank Miller were to treat this as just another "IM THE GODDAMN BATMAN! HA!" ::punches terrorist in the face:: type of thing, this is doomed, and i don't think Miller will ever be able to live it down. Hell, i won't pick up another Miller book after this one if it winds up being like that(unless, of course, it's All-Star Batman...i feel compelled to finish the run. Everything that comes after, can rot for all i care). To treat this subject matter in a childish fashion like All-Star or DKSA would be a horrendously stupid move.

[The Dark Guybrush]

Personally, I feel Miller's Batman work has been taking a slow, steady dive in quality over the past few years.. starting with TDKSA.
I haven't even picked up any of the All-Star stuff, going off the scanned pages fellow fans have posted on the hype, I've no interest in reading it.
still going to give this one a look, though.

[theMan-Bat]

Well, i REALLY REALLY hope that Frank Miller understands that the topic that he'll be writing about is really touchy. So i hope that his writing is up to par with his older, great works. So in that case, if it still sucks, it sucks because perhaps it offended the political beliefs of the reader.

If Frank Miller were to treat this as just another "IM THE GODDAMN BATMAN! HA!" ::punches terrorist in the face:: type of thing, this is doomed, and i don't think Miller will ever be able to live it down. Hell, i won't pick up another Miller book after this one if it winds up being like that(unless, of course, it's All-Star Batman...i feel compelled to finish the run. Everything that comes after, can rot for all i care). To treat this subject matter in a childish fashion like All-Star or DKSA would be a horrendously stupid move.

This wont be Batman holding hands and singing "coombiyah my lord" with Osama bin Laden. Batman is going to kick al-Qaeda's ass. Who should he worry about offending? Al-Qaeda? They are--and this is the key point--not true Muslims and do not represent Islam. This is going to be brutal. Frank Miller doesn't sugar coat anything. Frank Miller does not breath air. He breathes only cigarette smoke pumped from the lungs of Humphrey Bogart and Mickey Spillane, preserved in special tanks and filtered through a haze of 25 year old Scotch and the sweat of anti-Miller fanboys! When Frank Miller exhales, he breathes out pure badass!

[gdw]

All Star B&R is either bloody brilliant, or a flaming turd, either way, I'm enjoying it.

The All Star like was intended to allow artist's to tell stories that they otherwise wouldn't be able to in continuity. I think that Miller is just running with it and you REALLY have to take his All Star run with a satirical tune.

Any who, that being said, I am looking forward to this book, although, hadn't heard about it until just now, actually, I might recall hearing/reading about it in passing, but that's besides the point. Mind you, what point, and even if I had a point, who cares, this is an on-line thread. I'll be passed over by the majority, and those who do read this, wtf do they care, and what does my attempt to influence them with my post matter?

Enough of the rant. The only thing Miller's done that I haven't liked was TDSA, and in that, I think it was that whole forest and trees thing. The underlying direction/ idea of the plot wasn't bad, but it just lost its way.

[CrimsonMist]

This wont be Batman holding hands and singing "coombiyah my lord" with Osama bin Laden. Batman is going to kick al-Qaeda's ass. Who should he worry about offending? Al-Qaeda? They are--and this is the key point--not true Muslims and do not represent Islam. This is going to be brutal. Frank Miller doesn't sugar coat anything. Frank Miller does not breath air. He breathes only cigarette smoke pumped from the lungs of Humphrey Bogart and Mickey Spillane, preserved in special tanks and filtered through a haze of 25 year old Scotch and the sweat of anti-Miller fanboys! When Frank Miller exhales, he breathes out pure badass!

and that MIGHT(and i stress MIGHT) not be what is required of this work. Sam Spade and Mike Hammer never took on a terrorist organization such as Al Qaeda. This type of story doesn't require smoky bars, booze, babes & bullets, and all of his tradition hard boiled badassness. It requires much, much more than that. Frank Miller + Batman taking on crazed terrorists=awesome, but he's gonna have to take it up a notch. Brutal? Indeed. But Miller's really going to have to make this intelligent, and proceed cautiously, in his own way.

It shouldn't be Batman singing Kumbia, My Lord with the terrorists, but it shouldn't be a laughing, maniacal madman dressed in a bat suit, saying "I'm the Godddamn Batman!" either.

[silentflute]

Frank Miller does not breath air. He breathes only cigarette smoke pumped from the lungs of Humphrey Bogart and Mickey Spillane, preserved in special tanks and filtered through a haze of 25 year old Scotch and the sweat of anti-Miller fanboys! When Frank Miller exhales, he breathes out pure badass!

Classic post.:up::woot:

[silentflute]

I remember right after 9/11, Miller spoke about the similarities between Bin Laden and Batman's methods, specifically Bruce's speech in DK2 about (paraphrasing here) "striking like lightning and melting into the night"..

Miller admitted that they both had similar methods -with the speech , hiding out in a cave, striking terror etc-and said that it felt very weird talking about those similarities.

I wonder if any of this will be addressed in this project.

[batman_gr]

any update on the release date?