The Obama Thread (Merged x6)

[Arkady Rossovich]

This is why I'm not in charge.

If I were in charge,... we would have 54 United States,... Germany, Japan, Cuba,...... and Albania.

Those Albanians stay in trouble and have been a thorn in our collective side since our founding.

Everytime we are forced to defend ourselves,.. we should absorb the offending country.

That's crazy. It's like someone who is paranoid and has to do anything to make sure there is no threat at all. Germany and Japan are their own countries,and the US Government treated them good..considering the circumstances. Cuba is a thorn in America's side,but what could be done? The Government tried to do something before..and got embarrassed by it. They won't do it again.

An attitude like that is why the world is getting angry with the USA. It's nice to know that Europe,Russia and China keeps America in check. I think Obama can think with a level head,and wouldn't say such things.

[Marx]

Bush and Ahmadinejad are both ideological terrorists, i.e. they base their decisions on their faiths and each believes his faith is 100% correct and that everyone else in the world should abide by it. That's where they are similar.

However, Bush has not advocated the complete annihilation of an entire civilized nation. And I mean annihilation here. Ahmadinejad does not want Israel to exist, nor does he want the Jewish people to exist. Yet, the far left seems to think it's fine and dandy that he will soon reach the capacity to produce weapons which could cause mass chaos on Israel.

"Iran should have a nuclear program. After all, they deserve clean energy."

"Iran should have a nuclear program. It's hypocritical that the United States is criticizing Iran for having one, when they have one as well."

Both of the above arguments make sense, but they are false. If Iran built its nuclear program for peaceful purposes (i.e. clean energy), then why didn't they just comply with the IAEA? Why didn't Ahmadinejad sit back and say, "hey, we don't need any scandals. Let's work with the UN to make this a reality." There would have been tons of benefits for them had they worked with the international community to set this program up. Iran obviously could have worked an energy deal out with its neighboring nations. Hell, the international community would probably start handing Iran the uranium if they complied with the IAEA's standards.

I agree its hypocritical for the United States to have a nuclear weapons program while simultaneously criticizing Iran for pursuing the means to build one. I believe we should disarm, perhaps not totally, but 75% of our nuclear arsenal should be eliminated. But the point isn't that the U.S. are giant hypocrites. The point is, this insane man is enriching uranium and being incredibly secretive about his country's nuclear program. Meanwhile he's dropping coy hints about Israel, making provocative statements... some say he's doing it just to be coy, to draw attention to himself... but I don't care. I don't want to play chicken with a madman. I want us to prevent an international crisis before it can even begin.

To that end though Jman, the same can be said about Saddam Hussein. He toyed with the international community, claiming this and claiming that. In the end, he had absolutely nothing to back it up.

[Memphis Slim]

It's not hypocritical for the US to have nuclear weapons and Iran not. We are civilized people; they are ass-backward nutjobs who seek to annihilate an entire people. We will use our weapons only if and when it is an absolute necessity to prevent something even more catastrophic from happening; they will be the ones using theirs to cause the catastrophe.


When their leader comes to America and announces that they don't have homosexuals in his country.....that's a nation you want to have a nuke??? That's a nation of rational leaders???

And they will get the bomb and Israel will not hesitate to use their nukes.

Who can blame them?

[BlackLantern]

nukes are like lawyers, everyone has them but using them ****s everything up....most countries know that...

[The Senator]

When there leader comes to America and anounces that they don't have homosexuals in his country.....that's a nation you want to have a nuke??? That's a nation of rational leaders???

And they will get the bomb and Israel will not hesitate to use their nukes.

Who can blame them?


No, see, Iran doesn't have living homosexuals, nor do they have out homosexuals because homosexuality is punishable by death in Iran. So, in a way, Ahmadinejad is correct :o

[hippie_hunter]

An attitude like that is why the world is getting angry with the USA. It's nice to know that Europe,Russia and China keeps America in check. I think Obama can think with a level head,and wouldn't say such things.

There really isn't no problem with Europe keeping the US in check, but China and Russia are downright scary with the way they act.

[BlackLantern]

Those sneaky Chinks and those Russkies can shut their yappers....we're the US by gummit and we will blow up who we darn well pleez....God Bless Ammerikuh..!!!! yee haw....

[The Senator]

There really isn't no problem with Europe keeping the US in check, but China and Russia are downright scary with the way they act.

I agree. Russia never should have been turned into a Democracy. It didn't work out for them, and as a result, they got Vladimir Putin, who is essentially a modern day czar who will dictate policy in Russia until the day he dies. He's becoming more and more anti-American, in rhetoric and action. And Russia still has a pretty big nuclear arsenal.

China is despicable. I don't care if they're communist or not; their government structure means little to me. However, their numerous human rights abuses including the treatment of ethnic minorities, their spreading of HIV/ AIDS throughout the 1990s, their environmental problems, among other concerns, make them a disturbing global power. Not to mention they have our economy by the balls, and their increasing anti-American behavior. They may be a force to reckon with in the next few decades, especially since their military enrollment has exceeded ours.

[hippie_hunter]

Those sneaky Chinks

Racial slurs aren't tolerated you ignorant redneck :cmad:

[BlackLantern]

Racial slurs aren't tolerated you ignorant redneck :cmad:

Listen here you tree huggin unwashed hippie, no one is allowed to call me an ignorant redneck except for my wife/sister....:oldrazz:

[Marx]

Racial slurs aren't tolerated you ignorant redneck :cmad:

Listen here you tree huggin unwashed hippie, no one is allowed to call me an ignorant redneck except for my wife/sister....:oldrazz:


**pulls up a chair and grabs some popcorn**

[Mr Sparkle]

There really isn't no problem with Europe keeping the US in check, but China and Russia are downright scary with the way they act.

I'm sure Caesar thought the same about Brutus.

[hippie_hunter]

Listen here you tree huggin unwashed hippie, no one is allowed to call me an ignorant redneck except for my wife/sister....:oldrazz:

I bet your ugly wife/sister is only 14 years old. :o

[BlackLantern]

I bet your ugly wife/sister is only 14 years old. :o

she is not ugly, that is just a birth mark....and she is 15 and 3 quarters I'll have you know....

[hippie_hunter]

Dude, she looks like she was beaten with an ugly stick.

[BlackLantern]

Dude, she looks like she was beaten with an ugly stick.

You know what they say....once you go ugly, you don't have to buy condoms anymore

[hippie_hunter]

You know what they say....once you go ugly, you don't have to buy condoms anymore

Yeah, well enjoy having 15 children and herpes because from what I hear, she's also a total ****.

[BlackLantern]

Yeah, well enjoy having 15 children and herpes because from what I hear, she's also a total ****.

You shouldn't talk about your mom that way......HI YO!!!!!!

[Varient]

That's crazy. It's like someone who is paranoid and has to do anything to make sure there is no threat at all. Germany and Japan are their own countries,and the US Government treated them good..considering the circumstances. Cuba is a thorn in America's side,but what could be done? The Government tried to do something before..and got embarrassed by it. They won't do it again.

An attitude like that is why the world is getting angry with the USA. It's nice to know that Europe,Russia and China keeps America in check. I think Obama can think with a level head,and wouldn't say such things.

(Smile)
If it's "paranoid" to be tired of Countries Doing that kind of dirt and Stopping them once they cross the line - C'mon,.. Japan AND Germany set out to TAKE OVER THE WORLD.-

Then Here's the Crayon,.. Color me Paranoid.

:hehe:

[Tron5000]

Lets take a look at your post, shall we?



I stand by this post....



If you are now changing the meaning of your post, then so be it....

But no where in your post did you differentiate between US citizens and their government officials.....

You went from speaking of "we as civilized people" to "them" no mention of government officials in either of those...
Your move....:yay:

Do you honestly think that I meant that the citizens of Iran have a collective wish to blow up Israel? Ahmadinejad is the one that has stated that he wants to wipe Israel off the map, not the citizens of Iran.

If you wanna play Grammar Police and argue about semantics, go ahead. Have fun with that.

[terry78]

Obama will be in Gary today. My hometown....I may have to skip out early.

[Memphis Slim]

Do you honestly think that I meant that the citizens of Iran have a collective wish to blow up Israel? Ahmadinejad is the one that has stated that he wants to wipe Israel off the map, not the citizens of Iran.

If you wanna play Grammar Police and argue about semantics, go ahead. Have fun with that.


And unfortunately their nut bag leaders will lead them down a path to war and destruction.

[jaguarr]

And unfortunately their nut bag leaders will lead them down a path to war and destruction.

Kind of like OUR nutbag leaders have done?

jag

[Memphis Slim]

No, see, Iran doesn't have living homosexuals, nor do they have out homosexuals because homosexuality is punishable by death in Iran. So, in a way, Ahmadinejad is correct :o

I know that. I was being sarcastic.

My point being that some of you think it's ok for a guy like that to have a nuke. And I'm saying that's just nuts!

[Memphis Slim]

Kind of like OUR nutbag leaders have done?

jag


No. Our motive is different. War is necessary sometimes, Jag. Iran is just picking a fight for no reason. Hating Jews does not qualify as a reason.

[Doomed_hero]

dang, I was looking at all the news sites today and there all acting like Mccain jumping ahead and tieing Obama and Clinton is a major turning point. When really once the Dem is chosen and others rally around them, I think a huge bump will happen and McCain may end up way behind.

[Tron5000]

dang, I was looking at all the news sites today and there all acting like Mccain jumping ahead and tieing Obama and Clinton is a major turning point. When really once the Dem is chosen and others rally around them, I think a huge bump will happen and McCain may end up way behind.

Why would that be? When they're conducting the polls, they ask, "Who would you vote for, McCain or Hillary?" or, "Who would you vote for, McCain or Obama?" Most Obama people are going to pick Hillary in Question # 1 and Obama in Question #2. Likewise with most Hillary supporters. The Dems. are swimming in the same pool.

You also have to consider those 20% of both Obama's and Hillary's supporters that say they will vote for McCain over the Dem. alternative should their candidate lose the Dem. nomination.

[The Senator]

I know that. I was being sarcastic.


I know, I was being sarcastic-er. :cwink:

[jaguarr]

No. Our motive is different. War is necessary sometimes, Jag. Iran is just picking a fight for no reason. Hating Jews does not qualify as a reason.


Oh, you mean like how we picked a fight with Iraq for no reason. Got it. :up:

jag

[The Senator]

Why would that be? When they're conducting the polls, they ask, "Who would you vote for, McCain or Hillary?" or, "Who would you vote for, McCain or Obama?" Most Obama people are going to pick Hillary in Question # 1 and Obama in Question #2. Likewise with most Hillary supporters. The Dems. are swimming in the same pool.

You also have to consider those 20% of both Obama's and Hillary's supporters that say they will vote for McCain over the Dem. alternative should their candidate lose the Dem. nomination.

An interior memo from the RNC warns the party to expect a 10-15% bump for the Democratic nominee once the race is settled... and they warn that McCain may not be able to recover from it...

[Excel]

Told yalll we got this in the bag either way :up:

[Kelly]

Do you honestly think that I meant that the citizens of Iran have a collective wish to blow up Israel? Ahmadinejad is the one that has stated that he wants to wipe Israel off the map, not the citizens of Iran.

If you wanna play Grammar Police and argue about semantics, go ahead. Have fun with that.

No, you spelled every word right, and every comma was in place. Good job.....:yay:


And, I didn't see in other meanings to your words than what you had written.....

[Memphis Slim]

Oh, you mean like how we picked a fight with Iraq for no reason. Got it. :up:

jag

17 U.N. resolutions were good reasons. Got it.:yay:

[Memphis Slim]

No, you spelled every word right, and every comma was in place. Good job.....:yay:


And, I didn't see in other meanings to your words than what you had written.....


Typical response......Why did you ignore his comment about Iran's prez wanting Israel wipe out?

[Zen]

17 U.N. resolutions were good reasons. Got it.:yay:

wow do we have a work cut out for us...

there are other countries who have broken UN resolutions, including the U.S.


we didn't invade them



And as for Iran, stop talking about ahmedinejad as the commander of the military. the Ayatollah is the only one who would be able to authorize such an attack in Iran... and with the Iranian people not necessarily supporting nuclear warfare next door.... its hard to believe it will EVER happen.

the fallout alone would pollute the entire middle east. Israel would bomb them back...

http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/img/facepalm.jpeg

Going after Iran would be the worst military blunder ever... we occupy and its worse then Iraq, we bomb and we will see a huge rise in terrorism and there resolve to aquire nuclear weapons again will be that much more resolute. i do not want to risk uniting the middle east against us.

Malaki wants us out, hes working closely with Iran... there are tensions between the two nations based on arab/persian relations... but if we bomb persia(Iran) we will only solidify their relationship.

[The Senator]

wow do we have a work cut out for us...

there are other countries who have broken UN resolutions, including the U.S.


we didn't invade them



And as for Iran, stop talking about ahmedinejad as the commander of the military. the Ayatollah is the only one who would be able to authorize such an attack in Iran... and with the Iranian people not necessarily supporting nuclear warfare next door.... its hard to believe it will EVER happen.

the fallout alone would pollute the entire middle east. Israel would bomb them back...

http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/img/facepalm.jpeg

Going after Iran would be the worst military blunder ever... we occupy and its worse then Iraq, we bomb and we will see a huge rise in terrorism and there resolve to aquire nuclear weapons again will be that much more resolute. i do not want to risk uniting the middle east against us.

Malaki wants us out, hes working closely with Iran... there are tensions between the two nations based on arab/persian relations... but if we bomb persia(Iran) we will only solidify their relationship.

Zen, seriously.

Stop acting like Ahmadenijad doesn't have political power in Iran. All it takes is one order from him, and one commander to agree with that order and carry out the attack. Ahmadinejad is a madman. He doesn't think rationally. He denies that homosexuals exist in Iran, and denies that the Holocaust every happened. He has advocated the destruction of Israel and has vowed to humiliate the United States.

And to top that all off, the Ayatollah supports Ahmadinejad's anti-Israel comments, or at the very least has a history of saying similar things:


http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2005/12/11/69635.html

But to go further-- If Iran did not have evil intentions, then why did they decide to enrich uranium when there are other elements they could have enriched for energy purposes? Uranium is primarily used in nuclear weapons. There are numerous other elements Iran could have enriched to maintain a peaceful energy program.

And if they really intended to have a peaceful nuclear program, why did they conduct themselves so secretly?

Why did Iran refuse to abide by IAEA standards?

If you add Ahmadinejad's comments to the way Iran has conducted its quest for nuclear power, it's quite apparent that the end result will not be peaceful. Iran has gone about this provocatively, with snide gestures and coyness. They need to be stopped before it's too late.

[jaguarr]

17 U.N. resolutions were good reasons. Got it.:yay:

Like WMD's and being involved with 9/11? Riiiight. :hehe: Besides, it's not the job of the U.S. to go off and "enforce" U.N. resolutions and sanctions, particularly when the U.N. is not supportive of us doing so in the first place. Bang, bang!

jag

[Memphis Slim]

Zen, seriously.

Stop acting like Ahmadenijad doesn't have political power in Iran. All it takes is one order from him, and one commander to agree with that order and carry out the attack. Ahmadinejad is a madman. He doesn't think rationally. He denies that homosexuals exist in Iran, and denies that the Holocaust every happened. He has advocated the destruction of Israel and has vowed to humiliate the United States.

And to top that all off, the Ayatollah supports Ahmadinejad's anti-Israel comments, or at the very least has a history of saying similar things:



But to go further-- If Iran did not have evil intentions, then why did they decide to enrich uranium when there are other elements they could have enriched for energy purposes? Uranium is primarily used in nuclear weapons. There are numerous other elements Iran could have enriched to maintain a peaceful energy program.

And if they really intended to have a peaceful nuclear program, why did they conduct themselves so secretly?

Why did Iran refuse to abide by IAEA standards?

If you add Ahmadinejad's comments to the way Iran has conducted its quest for nuclear power, it's quite apparent that the end result will not be peaceful. Iran has gone about this provocatively, with snide gestures and coyness. They need to be stopped before it's too late.


Notice how they have no answers for your very logical questions?

It's just the same ol' song....

AMERICA BAD!
IRAN MISUNDERSTOOD!

[Angry Sentinel]

No, I'm not Jewish. But my boyfriend, his parents, several of my friends, and most of my co-workers are. I'm also a homosexual, and I know quite well from my research that homosexuals do exist in Iran... they're just put to death or imprisoned for being gay. And the last time I checked, the Holocaust did happen. It's been historically proven.


"Ummm... Ahamedinejad said he wants to wipe Israel off the map... now he's enriching fuel which is traditionally used in nuclear weapons... that must mean... he's being completely peaceful and has no bad intentions whatsoever! Psssh, I mean, he said that at the 'Holocaust? What Holocaust??!' luncheon last year, it must be true!"

Tell me how its baffling to understand that this man plans to use Iran's nuclear program for sadistic purposes. Sorry for getting back to you so late, been busy.

Anyway... If you notice I didn't say it was baffling to understand fear of a man that plans to use Iran's nuclear programs sadistically. I suggested it was baffling because your response seemed highly personal. So I wondered if that personal connection was Judaism... however your comments about your sexuality in this response has cleared that up for me.

Personally, I've seen too many madmen in my time to get that ruffled over the situation. Yes there needs to be steps taken and some serious oversight, but we can't go bombing and overtaking every country that has a madman at the helm...It's kind of like the police, unfortunately they usually have to wait for the murder to be committed before they can arrest someone.

[Tron5000]

Obama on Sunday in San Francisco, describing small-town Pennsylvania residents:

"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them...And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

That's kind of a broad generalization of people in lots of areas, is it not, BO?

What exactly is your idea of clinging to religion, BO? To whom, exactly, are you referring?


Clinging to "anti-immigrant sentiment" and "antipathy to people who aren't like them"? What now, BO? Are you calling these small-town Pennsylvania residents racists, bigots, xenophobes? What exactly are you trying to tell us about these people?

And you're of the mind that all of these beliefs were simply the effect of lost jobs?

But maybe it's none of this. Perhaps they're just "bitter."

Pennsylvania has yet to vote. It's probably not wise for ol' BO to be talking about these folks in such a manner when he still needs their votes.

[Tron5000]

Sorry for getting back to you so late, been busy.

Anyway... If you notice I didn't say it was baffling to understand fear of a man that plans to use Iran's nuclear programs sadistically. I suggested it was baffling because your response seemed highly personal. So I wondered if that personal connection was Judaism... however your comments about your sexuality in this response has cleared that up for me.

Personally, I've seen too many madmen in my time to get that ruffled over the situation. Yes there needs to be steps taken and some serious oversight, but we can't go bombing and overtaking every country that has a madman at the helm...It's kind of like the police, unfortunately they usually have to wait for the murder to be committed before they can arrest someone.

So would you advocate waiting until Iran explodes a nuclear device before we take measures against them?

I'd rather we just not allow them to make the nukes in the first place. You know, cops do break up meth labs all the time. They don't wait and watch as meth is produced right in front of their eyes, then wait till the guy sells it and a couple people die from it before doing something about the situation.

[Marx]

Obama on Sunday in San Francisco, describing small-town Pennsylvania residents:

"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them...And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

That's kind of a broad generalization of people in lots of areas, is it not, BO?

What exactly is your idea of clinging to religion, BO? To whom, exactly, are you referring?


Clinging to "anti-immigrant sentiment" and "antipathy to people who aren't like them"? What now, BO? Are you calling these small-town Pennsylvania residents racists, bigots, xenophobes? What exactly are you trying to tell us about these people?

And you're of the mind that all of these beliefs were simply the effect of lost jobs?

But maybe it's none of this. Perhaps they're just "bitter."

Pennsylvania has yet to vote. It's probably not wise for ol' BO to be talking about these folks in such a manner when he still needs their votes.

Oh yes, but he is the speaker of speakers Tron. :whatever:

[Zen]

Zen, seriously.

Stop acting like Ahmadenijad doesn't have political power in Iran. All it takes is one order from him, and one commander to agree with that order and carry out the attack. Ahmadinejad is a madman. He doesn't think rationally. He denies that homosexuals exist in Iran, and denies that the Holocaust every happened. He has advocated the destruction of Israel and has vowed to humiliate the United States.

And to top that all off, the Ayatollah supports Ahmadinejad's anti-Israel comments, or at the very least has a history of saying similar things:



But to go further-- If Iran did not have evil intentions, then why did they decide to enrich uranium when there are other elements they could have enriched for energy purposes? Uranium is primarily used in nuclear weapons. There are numerous other elements Iran could have enriched to maintain a peaceful energy program.

And if they really intended to have a peaceful nuclear program, why did they conduct themselves so secretly?

Why did Iran refuse to abide by IAEA standards?

If you add Ahmadinejad's comments to the way Iran has conducted its quest for nuclear power, it's quite apparent that the end result will not be peaceful. Iran has gone about this provocatively, with snide gestures and coyness. They need to be stopped before it's too late.

ahmedinejad has political power. but he would not go against the ayatollah. neither would any of the generals. now as to whether or not the ayatollah would authorize bombing israel is another matter. its just that we are putting a face to Iran as Ahmedinejads... and i think thats irresponsible, theres more going on over there then a simple mad president. Personally i dont see how Nuking israel would benefit Iran at all... we could go into a long debate into how its essentialy shooting themselves in the foot... turning the entire world against them, and Israels middle eastern neighbors... i just do not see it even close to possible. i think he encourages more terrorist like attacks on israel, but dropping an atomic bomb is just far fetched. dare i say impossible. especially with Irans burgeoning populace of intelligent and liberalising people.


I never said Iran was NOT trying to build a bomb... i actually beleive they are, i do not think they need nuclear energy as they float on a sea of oil. i think they want the isolation that a nuclear bomb will give them. they will be able to have influence on the world stage and be free of foreign meddling like the looming threat of US Bombing.

Your answer is to not talk to them... and and strategically bomb them.

that to me is paranoid intolerance. if you talk to them... and they still move towards a disagreeable situation, then the grounds for striking them is at least more reinforced. but to just go and bomb them without any comunication... any kind of respect for them as a powerfull muslim nation that should not be treated like some sort of a wayward child who needs a spankin. I'm not saying let them go crazy, let them have the possibility of bombing israel... that they would never think to Bomb israel.

what i am saying is there is a history of foreign policy disasters between the US and Iran, and for us to continue doing the same thing we have always done...

Is it any surprise they look to nuclear weapons to try and retain their own soveriegnty? bombinb Iran will not turn the Populace of Iran that is sympathetic to the US... More agreeable to us. in fact... it will drive them the other way, it will VALIDATE ahmadinejad's mindless rattling.


And Slim... oops nevermind, your barely in this debate.

[BlackLantern]

being a good public speaker hardly qualifies....The Rock is a good public speaker and he did it in underwear...doesn't mean he should be President

[Zen]

So would you advocate waiting until Iran explodes a nuclear device before we take measures against them?

I'd rather we just not allow them to make the nukes in the first place. You know, cops do break up meth labs all the time. They don't wait and watch as meth is produced right in front of their eyes, then wait till the guy sells it and a couple people die from it before doing something about the situation.

diplomacy. you know... the thing that has worked with every other nuclear power including N. Korea.

Bombing them, refusing to talk to them... will embolden a a fresh new face on terrorism on american soil... Iranian shia's.

[Tron5000]

diplomacy. you know... the thing that has worked with every other nuclear power including N. Korea.

Bombing them, refusing to talk to them... will embolden a a fresh new face on terrorism on american soil... Iranian shia's.

You think diplomacy will work with the man who seeks to effect the Second Holocaust?

You mean like how diplomacy worked so well with Hitler?

Excuse me if I don't hold my breath on that one.

[Marx]

being a good public speaker hardly qualifies....The Rock is a good public speaker and he did it in underwear...doesn't mean he should be President

A very good point BL :funny:

[Tron5000]

diplomacy. you know... the thing that has worked with every other nuclear power including N. Korea.

Bombing them, refusing to talk to them... will embolden a a fresh new face on terrorism on american soil... Iranian shia's.

You think we dealt with nuclear Russia with "diplomacy"? No, we made it clear in no uncertain terms that our missiles were aimed directly at them, and if they ever even entertained the thought of using theirs, we would annihilate all of Mother Russia.

Our President made statements such as this: "My fellow Americans, I am pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws Russia forever. The bombing begins in five minutes."

We didn't deal with them through "diplomacy." It was through force and the threat of force that we did so.

[BlackLantern]

Some people don't understand diplomacy....I agree with Tron...with some people you just have to tell them if they try anything we will make their country the worlds biggest debris crater....

[Marx]

You think we dealt with nuclear Russia with "diplomacy"? No, we made it clear in no uncertain terms that our missiles were aimed directly at them, and if they ever even entertained the thought of using theirs, we would annihilate all of Mother Russia.

Our President made statements such as this: "My fellow Americans, I am pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws Russia forever. The bombing begins in five minutes."

We didn't deal with them through "diplomacy." It was through force and the threat of force that we did so.

But the use of force must never be the first or only option. Diplomacy must be the first option.

[BlackLantern]

But the use of force must never be the first or only option. Diplomacy must be the first option.

Well I think that telling someone that if they don't act right, they will get smashed is diplomacy

[Tron5000]

But the use of force must never be the first or only option. Diplomacy must be the first option.

Diplomacy with Iran is not an option that has any chance of working. As such, it ceases to be an option. We have nothing they want. They want Israel and the US wiped off the planet. Sorry, but I'm not willing to use that as a bargaining chip. You can't reason with crazy people. 'Cause they're crazy.

[Marx]

Diplomacy with Iran is not an option that has any chance of working. As such, it ceases to be an option. We have nothing they want. They want Israel and the US wiped off the planet. Sorry, but I'm not willing to use that as a bargaining chip. You can't reason with crazy people. 'Cause they're crazy.

Iran's current leader is not representative of the country.

Well I think that telling someone that if they don't act right, they will get smashed is diplomacy

I agree, that is still a form of diplomacy. You cannot have a foreign policy though that only amounts to "BOMB." You must be willing to talk to your enemies, not just blow them out of the water without even trying other options.

[The Senator]

Obama on Sunday in San Francisco, describing small-town Pennsylvania residents:

"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them...And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

That's kind of a broad generalization of people in lots of areas, is it not, BO?

What exactly is your idea of clinging to religion, BO? To whom, exactly, are you referring?

Maybe he's referring to all the plant and autoworkers who have been forced out of their job throughout the rustbelt states of Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana. Or maybe he was referring to those unemployed workers in Michigan, which is the most economically stagnant state in the country? Where some regions in Michigan are worse off than some of the worst neighborhoods in New York City?

You know, the people who have been left to fear illegal immigrants because some crackpot congressman told them they were stealing their jobs? They ones who are told that if they pray hard enough, God will lift them out of all their problems? They're the people who have been forgotten by the Bush administration, who will be forgotten by the McCain administration, and who will be screwed for years to come because no one seems to care about the plight facing the American auto worker.

I mean, it's not like we're in a recession or anything...


Clinging to "anti-immigrant sentiment" and "antipathy to people who aren't like them"? What now, BO? Are you calling these small-town Pennsylvania residents racists, bigots, xenophobes? What exactly are you trying to tell us about these people?

The kind of folks who call their Congressman to say "Those Mexicans are stealing our jobs!' are absolute extremists and nothing short of xenophobes, as far as I'm concerned. This country has suffered because of groups like the Minutemen which have put a giant target over every Hispanic in this country and people who think that just because an Hispanic-American speaks Spanish, that means he's an illegal.

And they've been told to adopt an anti-immigrant sentiment from terrorists such as Tom Tancredo and Duncan Hunter. They've been bombarded with nonsense from various websites, they are told "All Mexicans are bad!" by the likes of Bill O'Reilly and Lou Dobbs... they've scapegoated an entire race of people because its convenient for them...

[BlackLantern]

It may be a broad generalization, but he isn't completely wrong either....to me some of it seems to be lack of education and willingness to learn a new job or trade...their granddad worked on an assembly line, their father the same, and they as well untill the plant closed down....now what are they left with?

[souvlaki]

Oh yes, but he is the speaker of speakers Tron. :whatever:

Too bad he's for the most part right. Probably not the most elegant way of saying it, and it will probably cost him any chance of winning Pennsylvania, but I completely understand where he was coming from with that statement. If you think people in small towns losing their jobs are not bitter, or that they don't scapegoat their anger toward illegal immigrants then you are not paying attention. And some of them do turn to their guns/religion. Open your eyes and quit attacking the guy even when he's telling the truth just because his supporters annoy you.

[Matt]

Too bad he's for the most part right. Probably not the most elegant way of saying it, and it will probably cost him any chance of winning Pennsylvania, but I completely understand where he was coming from with that statement. If you think people in small towns losing their jobs are not bitter, or that they don't scapegoat their anger toward illegal immigrants then you are not paying attention. And some of them do turn to their guns/religion. Open your eyes and quit attacking the guy even when he's telling the truth just because his supporters annoy you.

Scape goat? Believe it or not, low level manufacturing jobs...jobs that have kept our state and other rust belt states economies alive, have disappeared, heavily in part due to illegal immigration. And Obama acts as if turning to religion is a bad thing. Perhaps if he went to a preacher who taught something other than hate speech he could see how religion can get you through hard times.

[BlackLantern]

Scape goat? Believe it or not, low level manufacturing jobs...jobs that have kept our state and other rust belt states economies alive, have disappeared, heavily in part due to illegal immigration. And Obama acts as if turning to religion is a bad thing. Perhaps if he went to a preacher who taught something other than hate speech he could see how religion can get you through hard times.

BUUUURN??

[Matt]

I find it amazing that a so called "uniter" has no problem insulting the populations of several states by saying "Hey, what you've been through isn't that big of a deal, you're just bitter so you decided to become crazed religious nuts or actually want to abide by the Constitution of the United States, you racists (Yes, Obama supporters, saying, "they develop antipathy towards people who aren't like them." is just a fancy way of calling someone racist....says the man who attended hate filled sermons for 20 years). "

Yet they will continue to say how Barack Obama unites people and will bring this country together. Please.

[The Senator]

I find it amazing that a so called "uniter" has no problem insulting the populations of several states by saying "Hey, what you've been through isn't that big of a deal, you're just bitter so you decided to become crazed religious nuts or actually want to abide by the Constitution of the United States, you racists (Yes, Obama supporters, saying, "they develop antipathy towards people who aren't like them." is just a fancy way of calling someone racist....says the man who attended hate filled sermons for 20 years). "

Yet they will continue to say how Barack Obama unites people and will bring this country together. Please.

Unfortunately, he speaks the truth about many of these rural voters who have adopted illegal immigration as the next great American non-issue, because they have been tricked into thinking that undocumented workers are stealing their jobs and plan to destroy America at its core. They've been out of work thanks to a stagnant economy and America's declining role in the international trade circuit, and their political circuit fed the idea that a President has to be all about religion and guns and hating Hispanics to be an effective leader and solve some of these problems.

So while I still dislike Obama, I can't help but think his comments make a lot of sense, even if they come off as over-generalized...

[BlackLantern]

and its those voters that won't vote to put a n***er in the White House...because I feel a lot of them are thinking that in their head....

[Marx]

Too bad he's for the most part right. Probably not the most elegant way of saying it, and it will probably cost him any chance of winning Pennsylvania, but I completely understand where he was coming from with that statement. If you think people in small towns losing their jobs are not bitter, or that they don't scapegoat their anger toward illegal immigrants then you are not paying attention. And some of them do turn to their guns/religion. Open your eyes and quit attacking the guy even when he's telling the truth just because his supporters annoy you.

Nice to see you again Souv, it's been a while. That being said, I assure you that my eyes are quite open. All I'm saying is that a man who supposedly such a "uniter" and has such "eloquence" when speaking sure knows how to make divisive comments. Insulting people and speaking above them is not a way of gaining their support.

[BlackLantern]

First people complain about politicians telling everyone what they want to hear...now we are complaining when a politician talks like a lot of us talk....seems a little silly...maybe the American people need to be insulted....lets hurt a few feeling and maybe get rid of the apathy that smothers this country...

[The Senator]

Nice to see you again Souv, it's been a while. That being said, I assure you that my eyes are quite open. All I'm saying is that a man who supposedly such a "uniter" and has such "eloquence" when speaking sure knows how to make divisive comments. Insulting people and speaking above them is not a way of gaining their support.

Obama is a hypocrite, Hillary is a liar, and McCain is a sadistic warmonger. Once again, it appears like electing a President will be a choice between two evils...

[Marx]

First people complain about politicians telling everyone what they want to hear...now we are complaining when a politician talks like a lot of us talk....seems a little silly...maybe the American people need to be insulted....lets hurt a few feeling and maybe get rid of the apathy that smothers this country...

I guess it all boils down to the fact that I'm tired of Obama's arrogance.

[The Senator]

First people complain about politicians telling everyone what they want to hear...now we are complaining when a politician talks like a lot of us talk....seems a little silly...maybe the American people need to be insulted....lets hurt a few feeling and maybe get rid of the apathy that smothers this country...

In the past two weeks, Hillary Clinton has shot herself in the foot as far as I'm concerned. I've been hoping to hear someone say something about the state of the country for so long, what with the Bosnia and Penn situations... now Obama mentions that the hatred some of these rural voters from the midwest exhibit is synthetically aimed at illegal immigrants... and I'm impressed because this has been an issue I've wanted someone to address for quite along time. This, on top of his vow to repeal DADT, have given him a good week in my opinion.

Though that doesn't mean I plan to rush out there and campaign for him...

[Matt]

Unfortunately, he speaks the truth about many of these rural voters who have adopted illegal immigration as the next great American non-issue, because they have been tricked into thinking that undocumented workers are stealing their jobs and plan to destroy America at its core. They've been out of work thanks to a stagnant economy and America's declining role in the international trade circuit, and their political circuit fed the idea that a President has to be all about religion and guns and hating Hispanics to be an effective leader and solve some of these problems.

So while I still dislike Obama, I can't help but think his comments make a lot of sense, even if they come off as over-generalized...

But illegal immigration is not a non-issue like gay marriage or abortion. Do you really believe illegal immigration has nothing to do with the stagnant economy? To say that people sneaking into our country, breaking our laws, and pulling down the economy with them is a non-issue is ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as Obama writing off rust-belt states as nothing but backwards, racist, gun-totting zealots.

[BlackLantern]

I guess it all boils down to the fact that I'm tired of Obama's arrogance.

I can insult you if it balances things out

[Matt]

First people complain about politicians telling everyone what they want to hear...now we are complaining when a politician talks like a lot of us talk....seems a little silly...maybe the American people need to be insulted....lets hurt a few feeling and maybe get rid of the apathy that smothers this country...


Imagine if Hillary Clinton said "Hey, Black people are just bitter over the past so they're voting Obama cause he is black too!" Imagine the uproar. Imagine the outrage from Obama supporters. So by the logic I see here, it is okay for Barack Obama to generalize people, but no one else?

[Marx]

I can insult you if it balances things out

No, that's quite alright BL. I'm good, thanks. :cwink:

[Marx]

Imagine if Hillary Clinton said "Hey, Black people are just bitter over the past so they're voting Obama cause he is black too!" Imagine the uproar. Imagine the outrage from Obama supporters. So by the logic I see here, it is okay for Barack Obama to generalize people, but no one else?

Hillary Clinton would be burned at the stake if she made those kinds of comments.

[BlackLantern]

Imagine if Hillary Clinton said "Hey, Black people are just bitter over the past so they're voting Obama cause he is black too!" Imagine the uproar. Imagine the outrage from Obama supporters. So by the logic I see here, it is okay for Barack Obama to generalize people, but no one else?

it seems to go hand in hand with that whole "critcizing Obama makes you a racist" thing

[Matt]

And call me crazy, but Obama seems like the bitter one. "I'm losing in the rust belt states like PA and Ohio and Michigan, so they must be gun totting, racist, zealots." That is what this speech says to me. Plain and simple.

[BlackLantern]

And call me crazy, but Obama seems like the bitter one. "I'm losing in the rust belt states like PA and Ohio and Michigan, so they must be gun totting, racist, zealots." That is what this speech says to me. Plain and simple.


but aren't they??...thats what Barack Obama said...:oldrazz:

[Marx]

And call me crazy, but Obama seems like the bitter one. "I'm losing in the rust belt states like PA and Ohio and Michigan, so they must be gun totting, racist, zealots." That is what this speech says to me. Plain and simple.

It says the same thing to me Matt.

[Matt]

Hillary Clinton would be burned at the stake if she made those kinds of comments.

And yet it is okay for Obama to make them. Lets even take this a step further...Obama assumes all us Pennsylvania, and Ohio, northeastern and midwestern hicks are just a bunch of yokels who vote on guns and Jeebus and them illegals who be takin' our jobs...and people seem to be okay with that...but imagine if Hillary Clinton said something like "Black people in big cities are bitter over the past, so they want to vote for another black man who will ensure they have welfare and food stamps." Imagine the hell that would be raised if Clinton said that. But when it comes down to it, is what Obama said really all that different? Sure, he is charasmatic. And he paints it in nice, pretty big words that most can't understand like "antipathy of people who are different from them." But when you boil it down, his horrible generalization is no different than the one I put up above.

[Marx]

And yet it is okay for Obama to make them. Lets even take this a step further...Obama assumes all us Pennsylvania, and Ohio, northeastern and midwestern hicks are just a bunch of yokels who vote on guns and Jeebus and them illegals who be takin' our jobs...and people seem to be okay with that...but imagine if Hillary Clinton said something like "Black people in big cities are bitter over the past, so they want to vote for another black man who will ensure they have welfare and food stamps." Imagine the hell that would be raised if Clinton said that. But when it comes down to it, is what Obama said really all that different? Sure, he is charasmatic. And he paints it in nice, pretty big words that most can't understand like "antipathy of people who are different from them." But when you boil it down, his horrible generalization is no different than the one I put up above.

I completely agree. And being from Ohio, yeah I find it all a little offensive. Not to mention ridiculous.

[The Senator]

But illegal immigration is not a non-issue like gay marriage or abortion. Do you really believe illegal immigration has nothing to do with the stagnant economy? To say that people sneaking into our country, breaking our laws, and pulling down the economy with them is a non-issue is ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as Obama writing off rust-belt states as nothing but backwards, racist, gun-totting zealots.

Many of these people are not coming into our country to put someone out of work or disrupt a family or anything of the sort. They're coming here because the Mexican economy sucks and there are better opportunities here. Undocumented workers are not here to smuggle nuclear weapons in, like Tom Tancredo wants us to believe, nor are they deliberately stealing our jobs to dismantle our economy and have an upper hand against us.

But really, what are we going to do to stop this? Are we going to deport all the undocumented workers? What about those with families born in the United States? Aren't children born on American soil automatically American citizens, according to the United States constitution? Is a fence really going to work, when a significant percentage of these folks sneak over here through underground pipes and tunnels?

We've gone back to a Nationalist Pride which hasn't been seen since the anti-Irish wave of the early 20th century, only this time undocumented workers are the target. People who have been fired from their jobs have been told to scapegoat an entire race of people as the reason why they're out of work, when that may not even be close to being the case. Do you think GM shut its doors in Flint because the big bad Mexicans stole all their jobs? Couldn't that have happened because GM hasn't sold enough vehicles to make decent earnings in the last few fiscal years?

People like Tom Tancredo and Duncan Hunter have blamed all of America's problems on undocumented workers, and have made up outlandish lies (such as "illegal immigrants want to bomb our schools") to convince ordinary blue-collar employees that the Mexicans are at fault when that really isn't the case.

[BlackLantern]

Hey I saw 3 Mexican kids constructing a nuclear device outside an elementary school the other day...they were using a bicycle, two bars of soap, and some paper clips....

[The Senator]

Hey I saw 3 Mexican kids constructing a nuclear device outside an elementary school the other day...they were using a bicycle, two bars of soap, and some paper clips....

No, see, they were trying to put more GM workers out of business by constructing the newest, coolest automobile ever...

[Marx]

But really, what are we going to do to stop this? Are we going to deport all the undocumented workers? What about those with families born in the United States? Aren't children born on American soil automatically American citizens, according to the United States constitution? Is a fence really going to work, when a significant percentage of these folks sneak over here through underground pipes and tunnels?

The companies that hire and exploit illegal immigrants/undocumented workers need to be dealt with. Once those companies are held accountable, some kind of progress can be made. Until then, this problem will continue to grow. No one has a problem with immigrants coming into the country legally...

[Matt]

Many of these people are not coming into our country to put someone out of work or disrupt a family or anything of the sort. They're coming here because the Mexican economy sucks and there are better opportunities here. Undocumented workers are not here to smuggle nuclear weapons in, like Tom Tancredo wants us to believe, nor are they deliberately stealing our jobs to dismantle our economy and have an upper hand against us.

But really, what are we going to do to stop this? Are we going to deport all the undocumented workers? What about those with families born in the United States? Aren't children born on American soil automatically American citizens, according to the United States constitution? Is a fence really going to work, when a significant percentage of these folks sneak over here through underground pipes and tunnels?

We've gone back to a Nationalist Pride which hasn't been seen since the anti-Irish wave of the early 20th century, only this time undocumented workers are the target. People who have been fired from their jobs have been told to scapegoat an entire race of people as the reason why they're out of work, when that may not even be close to being the case. Do you think GM shut its doors in Flint because the big bad Mexicans stole all their jobs? Couldn't that have happened because GM hasn't sold enough vehicles to make decent earnings in the last few fiscal years?

People like Tom Tancredo and Duncan Hunter have blamed all of America's problems on undocumented workers, and have made up outlandish lies (such as "illegal immigrants want to bomb our schools") to convince ordinary blue-collar employees that the Mexicans are at fault when that really isn't the case.

Frankly, I don't give a damn about Mexico's economy. Not when ours is in a horrible recession and on the verge of collapse. I get that their lives suck down there. Why is it our problem? Why should we allow them to sneak into our country and break our laws and drag down our economy because of it?

I will not deny that there are other factors. I will not claim Mexicans are the reason we are in recession. All I am saying is, it is making things worse. Why should we have to bear their burden though? If it is our responsibility...maybe it is time we just annex Mexico. But then we would be a horrible imperialistic country. No matter what the United States does, we will be the bad guys.

[The Senator]

The companies that hire and exploit illegal immigrants/undocumented workers need to be dealt with. Once those companies are held accountable, some kind of progress can be made. Until then, this problem will continue to grow. No one has a problem with immigrants coming into the country legally...

I have a problem with wasting taxpayers' money to build a seven-hundred mile long fence when it not only doesn't cover the whole Mexican-American border, but won't completely stop the immigration problem.

It's kind of ridiculous, really. Many folks seem to think, "hey, if we put a fence up, all the Mexicans will stay out" when really all it does is tell those undocumented workers to use the pipe and tunnel system, or hike seven hundred miles east to get into America.

Not to mention its totally unrealistic and would be an even bigger waste of taxpayers' money to round up and deport every undocumented worker in the country.

If you want to fix illegal immigration, then start a guest worker program, start fining businesses which hire illegal workers, figure out a way to increase security along the border... those are really the only reasonable ways to fix it.

[Matt]

I don't support the fence, and I agree with investigating companies who hire illegals. I could honestly see this being a focal point of John Edwards if he were attorney general as he does have a geniune desire to help the middle class.

I do have a problem with the guest worker program. The entire principal is to do jobs Americans don't want? When we have an unemployment rate of about 5 % (which is quite a few people) we should not have jobs Americans do not want. Before anyone even touches a welfare voucher or food stamp, we should ensure that they are placed in a job if capable. I am all for social charity, but only for those who are willing to help themselves. Maybe when our unemployment rate is down we can talk about guest worker programs.

But that is not the issue for me. The "issue" he was discussing is not what is bothering me. This is:

And yet it is okay for Obama to make them. Lets even take this a step further...Obama assumes all us Pennsylvania, and Ohio, northeastern and midwestern hicks are just a bunch of yokels who vote on guns and Jeebus and them illegals who be takin' our jobs...and people seem to be okay with that...but imagine if Hillary Clinton said something like "Black people in big cities are bitter over the past, so they want to vote for another black man who will ensure they have welfare and food stamps." Imagine the hell that would be raised if Clinton said that. But when it comes down to it, is what Obama said really all that different? Sure, he is charasmatic. And he paints it in nice, pretty big words that most can't understand like "antipathy of people who are different from them." But when you boil it down, his horrible generalization is no different than the one I put up above.

[The Senator]

Frankly, I don't give a damn about Mexico's economy. Not when ours is in a horrible recession and on the verge of collapse. I get that their lives suck down there. Why is it our problem? Why should we allow them to sneak into our country and break our laws and drag down our economy because of it?

It isn't our problem, nor should it be. But many folks have approached this situation with utmost malice, as if our suffering economy is due to these people living in our country illegally. Maybe our suffering economy has to do with the intolerable war we've been funding. Maybe it has to do with the fact that we've been spending money out of a deficit, thereby placing our balls firmly in the palm of China's squeezing hand. Maybe it has to do with the way America does business, and how we've been unable to strategically compete with countries like Japan or China or the entire EU for the past decade or so (and in some cases, even longer).

This problem was just as bad ten years ago as it is now... but no one complained about it then... doesn't it strike you a bit odd that this magically becomes a hot-button issue in an election season (as it was in 2006 a year after it became such a 'big' issue).


I will not deny that there are other factors. I will not claim Mexicans are the reason we are in recession. All I am saying is, it is making things worse. Why should we have to bear their burden though? If it is our responsibility...maybe it is time we just annex Mexico. But then we would be a horrible imperialistic country. No matter what the United States does, we will be the bad guys.

The solution isn't to annex Mexico-- it's to set up a guest worker program with a guaranteed path to citizenship, while fining the companies which willingly hire illegal aliens. It is the only reasonable way to approach this situation. It allows these folks to work for us, while documented as a guest worker who is on the path to citizenship. Granted, they should learn English and pass a citizenship test and all that good stuff. But it is unrealistic to deport all of the undocumented workers and their now-native children, just as it is to build a stupid fence and sit around complaining about greedy illegals.

The United States would probably be considered good guys to most people if they installed a guest-worker program... though there are some redneck politicians who will probably go ape**** if it ever gets proposed again...

[Matt]

Like I said, so long as we have people on unemployment, welfare, etc, there should be no guest worker program. Lets take care of our own, then worry about others.

And you bet your ass we should deport EVERY undocumented illegal. If they wish to take their American born child, that is their right as the parent. Why? Because there are thousands of people who have been waiting for years to do this the right way. Why should we punish them by giving people who broke our laws pathes to citizenship and allowing them to stay and work while they are on the pathes? The people who have been waiting should get first dibs on any guest worker license.

[The Senator]

Posted by Matt
And yet it is okay for Obama to make them. Lets even take this a step further...Obama assumes all us Pennsylvania, and Ohio, northeastern and midwestern hicks are just a bunch of yokels who vote on guns and Jeebus and them illegals who be takin' our jobs...and people seem to be okay with that...but imagine if Hillary Clinton said something like "Black people in big cities are bitter over the past, so they want to vote for another black man who will ensure they have welfare and food stamps." Imagine the hell that would be raised if Clinton said that. But when it comes down to it, is what Obama said really all that different? Sure, he is charasmatic. And he paints it in nice, pretty big words that most can't understand like "antipathy of people who are different from them." But when you boil it down, his horrible generalization is no different than the one I put up above.

Granted, what he says seems like a generalization. But when I look at it, I feel as though he's referencing a certain type of mentality which has been brought to rural voters-- that the illegal immigrants are the root of all evil, that the only politicians who matter are the ones who love God and guns-- which is the message Karl Rove and his strategists have planted in the minds of rural voters in states like Indiana and West Virginia.

His comments are nowhere similar to your faux-Clinton quote. He didn't say "white people want to vote for a white candidate because white people hate Mexicans and love Jesus." He described the mentality of many of these rural voters who have been screwed time and time again, while being played off of by Republicans who think they can win over that demographic by making up ******** stories such as 'the illegal immigrants support Islamic-fascism." The people who live and work in these small towns have been dealt blow after blow by the Bush administration and Congress, and will suffer the same burden if McCain becomes President of the United States. Yet for some reason, one party feels they own this demographic, and they've been able to feed these folks lies to get them to vote for their party. In many cases, it's worked.

[BlackLantern]

I would love to see some out of work Americans picking fruit and farming land....

[Matt]

You're from Virginia, correct Jman? Perhaps that is why we are not seeing eye to eye on this. As a Pennsylvanian I see these comments as a horribly offensive generalization that IS on par with faux-Clinton quote. You don't. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this matter, my friend.

Still, we can always agree on one thing:

Warner for Senate and then Warner 2012!

[Matt]

I would love to see some out of work Americans picking fruit and farming land....

As would I. This entire "jobs Americans don't want" is such a load of **** when we have a 5 % unemployment rate. If you are unemployed, you don't get to sit around and wait for the corner office while you mooch off tax payers. At least you shouldn't be able to.

[BlackLantern]

while in college and when I finished i spent 2 years working for a property management doing handyman and light construction work and another 3 years in retail before finding the good job I have now...i think lots of americans forgot what it means to work HARD...to go home tired and sore every night

[The Senator]

Like I said, so long as we have people on unemployment, welfare, etc, there should be no guest worker program. Lets take care of our own, then worry about others.

And you bet your ass we should deport EVERY undocumented illegal. If they wish to take their American born child, that is their right as the parent. Why? Because there are thousands of people who have been waiting for years to do this the right way. Why should we punish them by giving people who broke our laws pathes to citizenship and allowing them to stay and work while they are on the pathes? The people who have been waiting should get first dibs on any guest worker license.

It would be a complete waste of taxpayers' money to go around deporting every undocumented worker because he or she is not an American citizen. A guest worker program would not make those who are applying to enter the United States legally any less of a priority to this government. And a guest worker program is simply that-- it allows documented workers to come over from Mexico and work towards citizenship. It gives them a decent wage, lets them work towards fixing our economy... I often hear arguments that many of the jobs illegal immigrants take from us are jobs every day Americans are willing to do... but if ordinary Americans are willing to do them, then why haven't they sought these positions? The guest worker program, in conjunction with a public works program, would be government sponsored. It could add to our infrastructure, allow people on welfare to earn their pay... and it would serve as a way to lift any financial or logistical burden we'd face if we were to try to round up every illegal immigrant and give them the boot...

Like I said, these workers don't come here to sabbotage our country. They come here for work, to make a better living for themselves. And while they have gone about it all wrong, we as Americans should realize that they are seeking a dream just like any of us may be. They want a better life, they hear about an opportunity and run for it. When they hop over the fence or swim across the Rio Grande, they don't think to themselves, "Look at me guys! I'm breaking the law, and putting Americans out of work!" That isn't the rationale they have. Additionally, there are so many smart children who were born here as the son or daughter of their illegal parents, and these children have little access to the same opportunities in Mexico (not to mention they'd hardly receive the same education there if they were to return). Many of these children have become incorporated into the American culture, yet some people believe they should be kicked out because their parents broke the law twenty-some-odd years ago. It's distressing to see these sort of things unfold in this country.

So we need to examine how we react towards undocumented workers and realize that this is a humanitarian crisis we should work towards fixing through policy-- Not by promoting xenophobic rhetoric or trying to incorrectly tie terrorism to our border problems. And Obama has addressed a concern I've long had in this area, that many rural voters are being played like pawns in an unintelligible game of chess by both sides because they think a certain way and act a certain way.

[Matt]

while in college and when I finished i spent 2 years working for a property management doing handyman and light construction work and another 3 years in retail before finding the good job I have now...i think lots of americans forgot what it means to work HARD...to go home tired and sore every night

After college, with a degree, I managed a gas station because I couldn't find any work in my field. Once I realized there was no work in the field I was in, I took my savings and bought a business. Too many people now-a-days sit around and wait for opportunities to be handed to them. No one wants to take initiative. No one wants to work for anything. It is sad.

[Matt]

It would be a complete waste of taxpayers' money to go around deporting every undocumented worker because he or she is not an American citizen. A guest worker program would not make those who are applying to enter the United States legally any less of a priority to this government. And a guest worker program is simply that-- it allows documented workers to come over from Mexico and work towards citizenship. It gives them a decent wage, lets them work towards fixing our economy... I often hear arguments that many of the jobs illegal immigrants take from us are jobs every day Americans are willing to do... but if ordinary Americans are willing to do them, then why haven't they sought these positions? The guest worker program, in conjunction with a public works program, would be government sponsored. It could add to our infrastructure, allow people on welfare to earn their pay... and it would serve as a way to lift any financial or logistical burden we'd face if we were to try to round up every illegal immigrant and give them the boot...

Like I said, these workers don't come here to sabbotage our country. They come here for work, to make a better living for themselves. And while they have gone about it all wrong, we as Americans should realize that they are seeking a dream just like any of us may be. They want a better life, they hear about an opportunity and run for it. When they hop over the fence or swim across the Rio Grande, they don't think to themselves, "Look at me guys! I'm breaking the law, and putting Americans out of work!" That isn't the rationale they have. Additionally, there are so many smart children who were born here as the son or daughter of their illegal parents, and these children have little access to the same opportunities in Mexico (not to mention they'd hardly receive the same education there if they were to return). Many of these children have become incorporated into the American culture, yet some people believe they should be kicked out because their parents broke the law twenty-some-odd years ago. It's distressing to see these sort of things unfold in this country.

So we need to examine how we react towards undocumented workers and realize that this is a humanitarian crisis we should work towards fixing through policy-- Not by promoting xenophobic rhetoric or trying to incorrectly tie terrorism to our border problems. And Obama has addressed a concern I've long had in this area, that many rural voters are being played like pawns in an unintelligible game of chess by both sides because they think a certain way and act a certain way.

So you advocate open borders? If not, then under the plan you support there will have to be a cut off. Correct? What happens when the cut off is reached? We just put thousands of people who broke our laws onto the path to citizenship with no penalties...so...they hit the cut off and then what do you think will happen? Others will see that and emulate that behavior and try to force us into a situation where we have no choice but to grant them "guest worker licenses" and put them on the path to citizenship. I do not believe we should reward someone who broke our law, no matter what their reason.

[The Senator]

You're from Virginia, correct Jman? Perhaps that is why we are not seeing eye to eye on this. As a Pennsylvanian I see these comments as a horribly offensive generalization that IS on par with faux-Clinton quote. You don't. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this matter, my friend.

Still, we can always agree on one thing:

Warner for Senate and then Warner 2012!

Well I'm originally from Upstate New York and spent the early years of my life dealing with many inconsiderate rednecks who share some of the same views Obama discusses... so it's not like this is completely foreign to me...

I think he should have let someone in his campaign say these things... the fact that it comes directly from him will murder him in Pennsylvania and probably Indiana...

Which sucks considering Obama was starting to impress me with his performance on the electoral map, as he is statistically tied with McCain (less than 5 points between the two) in Montana, South Dakota, Virginia, Pennsylvania and Alaska, and led McCain by five points or more in New Mexico, Colorado, and Nevada. But oh well... my hopes are dashed by him yet again...

[Matt]

Well I'm originally from Upstate New York and spent the early years of my life dealing with many inconsiderate rednecks who share some of the same views Obama discusses... so it's not like this is completely foreign to me...

I think he should have let someone in his campaign say these things... the fact that it comes directly from him will murder him in Pennsylvania and probably Indiana...

Which sucks considering Obama was starting to impress me with his performance on the electoral map, as he is statistically tied with McCain (less than 5 points between the two) in Montana, South Dakota, Virginia, Pennsylvania and Alaska, and led McCain by five points or more in New Mexico, Colorado, and Nevada. But oh well... my hopes are dashed by him yet again...

Clinton is playing it smart. Lets her husband and people loosely affiliated with her like Geraldine Ferarro say the dumb things.

Meanwhile, people CLOSELY affiliated with Barack Obama like his close friends, family, and himself are saying the dumb things there. That is what will cost him the election in Novemeber. Obama gets in these grooves where he thinks because he is charasmatic and smooth, he can say basically whatever he wants, and sooner or later it bites him in the ass.

Tonight a guest on Keith Olberman said he is a, quote "Charasmatic Michael Dukakis" and I'm starting to agree. Like Dukakis, he will end up killing his own campaign.

[The Senator]

So you advocate open borders? If not, then under the plan you support there will have to be a cut off. Correct? What happens when the cut off is reached? We just put thousands of people who broke our laws onto the path to citizenship with no penalties...so...they hit the cut off and then what do you think will happen? Others will see that and emulate that behavior and try to force us into a situation where we have no choice but to grant them "guest worker licenses" and put them on the path to citizenship. I do not believe we should reward someone who broke our law, no matter what their reason.

I advocate virtual amnesty for every illegal worker in the United States, and believe that everyone who enters thereafter should seek the appropriate path to citizenship. I say 'virtual amnesty' because these people would have to work as guest workers or else face deportation... I'm guessing most people will take the opportunity to work for a higher wage, which would guarantee a path to citizenship with their employment...

This would all have to take place on a certain date... a bill would have to pass, the government would have to secure our borders properly and efficiently, and every undocumented worker (or at least 80% or so) would have to be accounted for in order for a smooth transition to take place...

This is a crisis which needs to be fixed, but it can't be fixed by invoking hatred.

[Matt]

I advocate virtual amnesty for every illegal worker in the United States, and believe that everyone who enters thereafter should seek the appropriate path to citizenship. I say 'virtual amnesty' because these people would have to work as guest workers or else face deportation... I'm guessing most people will take the opportunity to work for a higher wage, which would guarantee a path to citizenship with their employment...

This would all have to take place on a certain date... a bill would have to pass, the government would have to secure our borders properly and efficiently, and every undocumented worker (or at least 80% or so) would have to be accounted for in order for a smooth transition to take place...

This is a crisis which needs to be fixed, but it can't be fixed by invoking hatred.


But if we fix it once, won't it simply encourage more illegals to creat another problem that will need fixed again? Border security will never be perfect. People will always find a way through. If we fix it...it will just happen again, in bigger numbers. After all, I'm sure you know the old poem..."If you give a mouse a cookie...he asks for a glass of milk"

[Marx]

You're from Virginia, correct Jman? Perhaps that is why we are not seeing eye to eye on this. As a Pennsylvanian I see these comments as a horribly offensive generalization that IS on par with faux-Clinton quote. You don't. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this matter, my friend.

Still, we can always agree on one thing:

Warner for Senate and then Warner 2012!

As an Ohioan, I share in your discontent.

[Marx]

Clinton is playing it smart. Lets her husband and people loosely affiliated with her like Geraldine Ferarro say the dumb things.

Meanwhile, people CLOSELY affiliated with Barack Obama like his close friends, family, and himself are saying the dumb things there. That is what will cost him the election in Novemeber. Obama gets in these grooves where he thinks because he is charasmatic and smooth, he can say basically whatever he wants, and sooner or later it bites him in the ass.

Tonight a guest on Keith Olberman said he is a, quote "Charasmatic Michael Dukakis" and I'm starting to agree. Like Dukakis, he will end up killing his own campaign.

I'm beginning to see that as well.

[The Senator]

But if we fix it once, won't it simply encourage more illegals to creat another problem that will need fixed again? Border security will never be perfect. People will always find a way through. If we fix it...it will just happen again, in bigger numbers. After all, I'm sure you know the old poem..."If you give a mouse a cookie...he asks for a glass of milk"

The problem is, we never really focused on this problem until recently, after millions of undocumented workers entered our country illegally. In order to provide a long term solution, we need to start any practical approach to border security from scratch. We need to focus on incoming aliens versus those who are already here. It's an unfortunate sacrifice we're going to have to make, as it is totally unrealistic to round up and deport millions of people. We need to have a secure border, with border police, a high-tech virtual fence, and an incentive for these workers to come to our country legally. There's nothing which says they have to earn minimum wage, or be competing with American workers for employment if there's a government sponsored guest/ public works program which allows us to monitor those who are applying for citizenship, while letting them work towards citizenship as well.

If we do nothing, we won't address the problems. If we focus on building a fence and deporting everyone, we won't fix the problem. These risks still exist with a guest worker program, but these guest workers would be documented and could easily be monitored. And by working for our government on special projects, these workers would prove that they are not only willing to come here for a better lives for themselves, but that they are willing to contribute to our society and economy like any hardworking American worker.

[The Senator]

I'm beginning to see that as well.

There are seven months until the election. By the time the primary season is over, this will go away. If Obama picks a progressive like Jim Webb or Sherrod Brown as his running mate, chances are, he will erase any disadvantage he has with these rural voters. Hell, most of them probably aren't paying much attention to the race anyway.

Whether he wins is another thing, but I don't see his campaign ending up like Dukakis's. Kerry maybe, but not like Dukakis.

[Marx]

There are seven months until the election. By the time the primary season is over, this will go away. If Obama picks a progressive like Jim Webb or Sherrod Brown as his running mate, chances are, he will erase any disadvantage he has with these rural voters. Hell, most of them probably aren't paying much attention to the race anyway.

Whether he wins is another thing, but I don't see his campaign ending up like Dukakis's. Kerry maybe, but not like Dukakis.

I have to admit, it would be nice to have a home-state politician in the White House! Sherrod Brown OR Governor Strickland :yay:

[Varient]

Scary convo.

Esp the question about "If these are jobs Americans will do,.. why do the illigals have them?"

Easy answers from one living in Southern California - they break laws to have these jobs.

When you have 10 to 17 adults living in a two bedroom aptartment going to work AT MINIMUM WAGE @ jobs that used to be the entrance training jobs for our teens with these same people willing to work around the clock in violation of labor laws in California -
Americans who want to work CAN'T Compete w/o breaking the same laws.

I'm sorry but if we started a "catch as catch can" program to remove illigal immigrants with threats of Jailtime if they are caught back here,... You'd see an increase in available jobs for Americans.

You'll notice I didn't even go into how we should be treating the businesses that insist on hiring illegals,...

V.

[Varient]

I would love to see some out of work Americans picking fruit and farming land....

I did it as a teen,.. If it were still available (It's not) I'd have my kids do it,.. it builds character,..

Until the civil rights movement the majority of those doing such were still black.

[Zen]

Tron and others....

we never attacked Russia, we used a form of diplomacy. it was agressive and manipulative, which may be needed in Iran. that analogy doesnt support your argument. if diplomacy failed we would have attacked them. we didn't... blackmail is still diplomacy.

however, Petraeus himself is calling for diplomacy with Iran concerning Iraq.

the commander of the forces over there is calling for Diplomacy with Iran to help with Iraq.

And tron, thats what we needs from Iran and thats what they need from us... we need Iran to help with the violence as was illustrated with the Sadr/basra episode last week.

[The Senator]

Scary convo.

Esp the question about "If these are jobs Americans will do,.. why do the illigals have them?"

Easy answers from one living in Southern California - they break laws to have these jobs.

When you have 10 to 17 adults living in a two beroom aptartment going to work AT MINIMUM WAGE @ jobs that used to be the entrance training jobs for our teens with these same people willing to work around the clock in violation of labor laws in California -
Americans who want to work CAN'T Compete w/o breaking the same laws.

I'm sorry but if we started a "catch as catch can" program to remove illigal immigrants with threats of Jailtime if they are caught back here,... You'd see an increase in available jobs for Americans.

You'll notice I didn't even go into how we should be treating the businesses that insist on hiring illegals,...

V.

And you think Americans are going to seek out these jobs if they become available? If that's the case, why haven't they done so before?

Do you honestly think these employers are going to give jobs to Americans when they have to pay them minimum wage? I don't think farmers and small businessmen are going to start hiring American workers simply because law enforcement officials rounded up all the illegals and sent them back to Mexico. These employers are going to either find more illegal immigrants to do the job for them, or else they're simply not going to hire anyone to do these jobs, as it won't be cost effective to pay $7 an hour versus the $3 an hour they can pay illegals.

But yes... let's make sure we don't take it out on the business owners while we're at it... because lord knows they aren't breaking the law by hiring these undocumented workers in the first place...

[BlackLantern]

Those business should be punished and I'd like to see someone go to an unemployed persons house and offer them a job picking fruit and see what the response is..

[Kelly]

hmmmm......"inconsiderate redneck".....sounds more like a regular ******* to me......

[terry78]

hmmmm......"inconsiderate redneck".....sounds more like a regular ******* to me......

Most of them usually are.

[BlackLantern]

hmmmm......"inconsiderate redneck".....sounds more like a regular ******* to me......

There was no malice or flaming there Kel.....just some ribbing....I already got one warning from Hunter Rider...and I felt shame...

[Kelly]

There was no malice or flaming there Kel.....just some ribbing....I already got one warning from Hunter Rider...and I felt shame...


LMAO......don't take it to heart sweetie.......I was just commenting....

[Marx]

Those business should be punished and I'd like to see someone go to an unemployed persons house and offer them a job picking fruit and see what the response is..

That's my argument as well BL. The businesses that hire all of these illegal immigrants/undocumented workers need to be dealt with. I would also like to see the apartment complexes that house them dealt with too. Once you stop their ability to gain housing and jobs, I don't think the problem would be nearly as severe.

[Mr Sparkle]

So you advocate open borders? If not, then under the plan you support there will have to be a cut off. Correct? What happens when the cut off is reached? We just put thousands of people who broke our laws onto the path to citizenship with no penalties...so...they hit the cut off and then what do you think will happen? Others will see that and emulate that behavior and try to force us into a situation where we have no choice but to grant them "guest worker licenses" and put them on the path to citizenship. I do not believe we should reward someone who broke our law, no matter what their reason.

I say NO guest worker licenses.
I say NO foreigners in US soil!:cmad::cmad::cmad:
I say build three walls ( at taxpayer expense) on the borders! BOTH borders
you don't want to wake up some day and find HOCKEY is the damned national sport!:cmad: maple leaves strewn everywhere! people saying "aboot" and "orale!" instead of "about" and "yay!".

of course, one could argue that if there were no jobs people wouldn't go.
one could argue that the real fault lies with American employers that will NEVER get stiff penalties or regulation for breaking laws.
one could argue that, but one would be a filthy MEXO-commie to do so!:cmad:

[Mr Sparkle]

Those business should be punished and I'd like to see someone go to an unemployed persons house and offer them a job picking fruit and see what the response is..

"no thanks, I collect unemployment and that pays far more"?:huh:
I mean, are these people being denied jobs because they are Americans or something?
I don't get it.
why exactly are these unemployed people not "taking the jobs" Illegal immigrants " stole "?

[BlackLantern]

I think most Americans would like to see businesses get severely punished for hiring illegals....

[BlackLantern]

"no thanks, I collect unemployment and that pays far more"?:huh:
I mean, are these people being denied jobs because they are Americans or something?
I don't get it.
why exactly are these unemployed people not "taking the jobs" Illegal immigrants " stole "?

Because, even though they might say that an illegal is stealing jobs, they feel that they are "too good" to do those jobs....

[Matt]

I don't blame Mexican citizens. If I could take the easy way out and sneak into another country instead of trying to fix my own ****ed up country, I probably would. That doesn't make it our problem. I agree employers should be punished. That doesn't mean we should just grant amnesty to anyone who broke our laws to come to this country, no matter how crappy your country is.

[Mr Sparkle]

Because, even though they might say that an illegal is stealing jobs, they feel that they are "too good" to do those jobs....

then , really, whose fault is it? if there's like pieces of bread at a table, and I'm hungry but I feel I'm " too good " to eat said bread, do I get to ***** and complain if someone else eats it?

[Marx]

I don't blame Mexican citizens. If I could take the easy way out and sneak into another country instead of trying to fix my own ****ed up country, I probably would. That doesn't make it our problem. I agree employers should be punished. That doesn't mean we should just grant amnesty to anyone who broke our laws to come to this country, no matter how crappy your country is.

I agree Matt, but I think a good first step in fixing this problem starts with the job and housing sectors who are exploiting these workers. Once that is dealt with, then we can concentrate on the border and those already here. We've got to start somewhere. You know?

[Memphis Slim]

Speaking at a San Francisco fundraiser on Sunday, Barack Obama talked about (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0408/Obama_on_smalltown_PA_Clinging_religion_guns_xenop hobia.html) the “small town resentment” he sees in Pennsylvania and throughout the Midwest.
You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them…And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.


Wow....:wow: This guy......

So small town town folk are Bible thumpin', gun totin' racist bigots in his mind?

And notice that he said this to his San Francisco liberal crowd.


This dude is scary........ and only FOX will cover this.

[Memphis Slim]

So the only reason people care about God, gun ownership, or securing the border, is because we have a weak economy right now? Are you sure about that?

I don’t claim any special powers or an ability to see into the future, but I’m gonna go out on a limb and predict that Barack Obama will be issuing an apology within 24 hours for saying something that stupid.

I think it really shows just how out of touch he really is. He’s the same garden variety liberal the Democrats run every four years, but he just happens to give better speeches

[Marx]

Speaking at a San Francisco fundraiser on Sunday, Barack Obama talked about (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0408/Obama_on_smalltown_PA_Clinging_religion_guns_xenop hobia.html) the “small town resentment” he sees in Pennsylvania and throughout the Midwest.You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them…And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.


And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.



Wow....:wow: This guy......


So small town town folk are Bible thumpin', gun totin' racist bigots in his mind?


And notice that he said this to his San Francisco liberal crowd.



This dude is scary........ and only FOX will cover this.




Yeah I found it a little offensive and ridiculous. The midwest is not as generalized as Obama would like people to believe. Some of us may be like that, but the majority of us are not. His statements were idiotic. He is shooting himself in the foot and killing his own campaign. But it's all OK because he is the "uniter!"

[Matt]

Because, even though they might say that an illegal is stealing jobs, they feel that they are "too good" to do those jobs....

And that is a problem.

I agree Matt, but I think a good first step in fixing this problem starts with the job and housing sectors who are exploiting these workers. Once that is dealt with, then we can concentrate on the border and those already here. We've got to start somewhere. You know?


I agree. Here is how we fix illegal immigrations:

1) Begin investigating employers who hire illegal aliens. When caught, penalize them with heavy fines (7 figures or higher. Money is all that will serve as a deterrant) and possibly jail time for owners of companies that hire illegal and the employees of the company or individual who hired them.

2) Beef up Immigration Services and possibly even merge it with Homeland Security to better enable them to coordinate with departments such as the FBI and local law enforcement.

3) Once Immigration Services has the resources necessary, we begin deportation in mass. Any illegal apprehended is gone. Plain and simple. If they have children born on soil, they will have the choice to either take their child with them or leave them in state custody. We should not reward criminals by granting them amnesty.

4) Eliminate jobs that Americans "don't want." If you are on welfare, the government will find a job for you. I don't care if it is cleaning someone's toilet or picking fruit in a field. If you want the government to help you, you will also help yourself unless you can prove a medical disability that prevents you from work. When our unemployment rate is down to 1 or 2 %, we can talk about a "Guest Worker Program."

[Memphis Slim]

Well .....here it is now....:woot:
Obama on Guns and Religion: ‘I Didn’t Say It as Well as I Should (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/12/obama-on-guns-and-religion-i-didnt-say-it-as-well-as-i-should-have/)Have

http://elections.foxnews.com/files/2008/04/obama_muncie_041208.jpg
Barack Obama admitted Saturday that he chose his words poorly when he told a group of California donors that small-town Americans “cling” to guns and religion and xenophobia out of bitterness over lost jobs, but for the second day in a row stood by the comments and weathered pointed criticism from Hillary Clinton.

“I didn’t say it as well as I should have, because the truth is these traditions that are passed on from generation to generation, those are important,” Obama said in Muncie, Ind., minutes before Clinton jumped in and called his remarks “elitist.”

“But what is absolutely true is that people want to feel like they’re being listened to. And so they pray, and they count on each other and they count on their families,” Obama continued.
The original remarks, made a week ago and reported in The Huffington Post Friday, drew charges of classism from the campaigns of John McCain and Clinton.

When Obama attempted to explain them Friday, the two campaigns claimed he was only digging himself deeper.
Clinton, speaking in Indianapolis Saturday morning, amplified her attack, saying Obama has no right to challenge gun owners or those who believe strongly in God.

“I was taken aback by the demeaning remarks Sen. Obama made about people in small-town America,” she said. “Sen. Obama’s remarks are elitist and they’re out of touch.”

Clinton highlighted her own working-class roots and “midwestern values,” and tried to paint herself as a humble product of middle America.
“Americans who believe in the Second Amendment believe it’s a constitutional right. Americans who believe in God believe it’s a matter of personal faith. Americans who believe in protecting good American jobs believe it’s a matter of the American dream,” she said. “People embrace faith not because they are materially poor but because they are spiritually rich.”

But as he did Friday night, Obama on Saturday morning explained that he was only speaking to an evident reality — that Americans who feel the government is not listening to their economic concerns turn to issues they can grasp, a response he said is understandable.

“It’s interesting, right? Lately there’s been a typical sort of political fight. Because I said something that everybody knows is true — which is that there are a whole bunch of folks in small towns in Pennsylvania, in towns right here in Indiana, in my hometown in Illinois, who are bitter. They are angry. They feel like they’ve been left behind. They feel like folks aren’t paying attention to what they’re doing here,” he said Saturday.

“So I said, ‘Well, you know, when you’re bitter you turn to what you can count on.’ So people, they vote about guns. Or they take comfort from their faith, and their family and their community. And they get mad about illegal immigrants who are coming into this country. Or they get frustrated about, you know, how things have changed. That’s a natural response.”

Click here to read and hear the Obama comments that sparked criticism in The Huffington Post. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mayhill-fowler/obama-no-surprise-that-ha_b_96188.html)

[Marx]

And that is a problem.

I agree. Here is how we fix illegal immigrations:

1) Begin investigating employers who hire illegal aliens. When caught, penalize them with heavy fines (7 figures or higher. Money is all that will serve as a deterrant) and possibly jail time for owners of companies that hire illegal and the employees of the company or individual who hired them.

2) Beef up Immigration Services and possibly even merge it with Homeland Security to better enable them to coordinate with departments such as the FBI and local law enforcement.

3) Once Immigration Services has the resources necessary, we begin deportation in mass. Any illegal apprehended is gone. Plain and simple. If they have children born on soil, they will have the choice to either take their child with them or leave them in state custody. We should not reward criminals by granting them amnesty.

4) Eliminate jobs that Americans "don't want." If you are on welfare, the government will find a job for you. I don't care if it is cleaning someone's toilet or picking fruit in a field. If you want the government to help you, you will also help yourself unless you can prove a medical disability that prevents you from work. When our unemployment rate is down to 1 or 2 %, we can talk about a "Guest Worker Program."

1) Yes.
2) Immigration is a part of Homeland Security.
3) The amounts of money that cost would be tremendous. Just something to think about.
4) You bring up a good point.

BUT YOU FORGOT TO DEAL WITH THE HOUSING SECTOR! We need to deal with apartment complexes that rent to illegals too. Like I said, if they have no housing or jobs to come to, the problem will be reduced. There's my two cents :cwink:

[Mr Sparkle]

I don't blame Mexican citizens. If I could take the easy way out and sneak into another country instead of trying to fix my own ****ed up country, I probably would. That doesn't make it our problem. I agree employers should be punished. That doesn't mean we should just grant amnesty to anyone who broke our laws to come to this country, no matter how crappy your country is.

:huh: okay, one thing though Matt.
I'd like for you to stop being an idiot for a second.
why? because you're being a BOMBASTIC, HUGE idiot.
would you say that the Pilgrims that came to the US took the "easy way" out, because they didn't "change their country"?
I mean, just look at yourself.
you did nothing but complain about republicans for six years and dod nothing but rail on messageboards and what did you ACCOMPLISH?
nothing really.
so then, what's this " change your country" crap you're spewing.
you do know that the people that go illegaly to the US ( from Mexico) are at the bottom rung of the social ladder right?
mostly from farming communities and sometimes people that can barely speak Spanish as it is.
so, in order for their families not to starve they hit the road travel thousands of miles through dangerous roads, some perish in the process in order to get to the US and do backbreaking labor that your unemployed won't touch with a ten foot pole, for less pay, no benefits and no dignity.
and that's the "easy way"? are you like mentally challenged?
you wouldn't last a day in this " easy way" let alone a month, you'd be crying to your parents to come bail you out of this "easy way" the first chance you had.
but you know what makes it YOUR problem.
the fact that American citizens employ illegals to exploit them, the fact that most of the people in the anti-illegal movement actually employ illegals and are involved in these movements to more practically control their "employees".
and of course. the US has mettled in the economic development of countries, including Mexico for well, for like forever.
so I guess that makes it "your problem".
plus I like how everyone talks about illegal immigration like it's some sort of Mexican problem, I guess since
" At yearend 2006 there were 3,042 black male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to 1,261 Hispanic male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 Hispanic males and 487 white male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 white males."
crime is a "black" problem.
:huh::up:

[Malice]

I gotta say...Obama is scaring me more and more

[Darthphere]

Meh, whats the point, he'll get away with this too.

[BlackLantern]

ah yes the old Washington BackPedal.....

[Memphis Slim]

He said exactly what he believed. It was not suppose to be a public comment. So you know it was from the heart.

But this dude is smooooooth...........look how he spun that around.

This dude is scary....

[Mr Sparkle]

3) Once Immigration Services has the resources necessary, we begin deportation in mass. Any illegal apprehended is gone. Plain and simple. If they have children born on soil, they will have the choice to either take their child with them or leave them in state custody. We should not reward criminals by granting them amnesty.



how very humane.

[Marx]

Meh, whats the point, he'll get away with this too.

Of course he will Darth because he's such an eloquent speaker and the king of talking around the issue! :whatever:

[Darthphere]

how very humane.

And how very illegal and unconstitutional. :up:

[BlackLantern]

how very humane.

Like you said, they stand a better chance here than in their own country....

[Matt]

And yet it is okay for Obama to make them. Lets even take this a step further...Obama assumes all us Pennsylvania, and Ohio, northeastern and midwestern hicks are just a bunch of yokels who vote on guns and Jeebus and them illegals who be takin' our jobs...and people seem to be okay with that...but imagine if Hillary Clinton said something like "Black people in big cities are bitter over the past, so they want to vote for another black man who will ensure they have welfare and food stamps." Imagine the hell that would be raised if Clinton said that. But when it comes down to it, is what Obama said really all that different? Sure, he is charasmatic. And he paints it in nice, pretty big words that most can't understand like "antipathy of people who are different from them." But when you boil it down, his horrible generalization is no different than the one I put up above.

Just asking this again...Why is it okay for Obama to say stuff like this? What if Clinton said the above?

[BlackLantern]

And how very illegal and unconstitutional. :up:

We're already doing that..what's one more tear to the Constitution?

[Mr Sparkle]

Like you said, they stand a better chance here than in their own country....

hmm, I guess the state should start removing babies from poor black communities, since they would " stand a better chance"?:huh:
doesn't make sense does it?

[Malice]

Just asking this again...Why is it okay for Obama to say stuff like this? What if Clinton said the above?

Once again the media double standard is not entirely applying to Obama.

[Varient]

And you think Americans are going to seek out these jobs if they become available? If that's the case, why haven't they done so before?

Do you honestly think these employers are going to give jobs to Americans when they have to pay them minimum wage? I don't think farmers and small businessmen are going to start hiring American workers simply because law enforcement officials rounded up all the illegals and sent them back to Mexico. These employers are going to either find more illegal immigrants to do the job for them, or else they're simply not going to hire anyone to do these jobs, as it won't be cost effective to pay $7 an hour versus the $3 an hour they can pay illegals.

But yes... let's make sure we don't take it out on the business owners while we're at it... because lord knows they aren't breaking the law by hiring these undocumented workers in the first place...

I'm watching it happen in Southern California, I'm reading about it in places like Arizona and New Mexico.

The problem is two fold:

One-> Americans have to live here legally or face all kinds of penalties. They have to support the infrastructure of society by paying taxes and putting money into things like medical or insurance. Illegals don't have to sweat these things because while we can be fined or jailed or forced to do without,.. the worst they get currently is to be deported. Then because we are reluctant to enforce our own laws, they just come back.

Two-> In our society where profit is the cornerstone of a capitalistic setup, people work to increase their bottom line. A farmer can normally make thousands of dollars (Without Government interference) and because of that they could support American workers @ Minimum Wage. The problem is when undocumented workers show up willing to work at half that rate and the local government turns a blind eye. If we are going to hogtie and hamstring the American public with Laborlaw, we need to enforce it to include everyone. There are laws in place to penalize businesses that don't follow the rules.

We need to punish more and look away less.

Like I typed earlier,.. I'm watching it happen. Fast food places that used to provide entry-level jobs to teens and young folk are doing so again as groups of illegals are found and deported.
We need to do this on a larger scale.

V.

[Marx]

Just asking this again...Why is it okay for Obama to say stuff like this? What if Clinton said the above?

And again I'll answer - she'd be burned at the stake! I still don't understand why Obama continues to get the free pass. Sure he has had some bumps along the way, but he has gotten away with far too much.

[BlackLantern]

hmm, I guess the state should start removing babies from poor black communities, since they would " stand a better chance"?:huh:
doesn't make sense does it?

You said the reason these people leave Mexico is because, however remote it may be, they stand a better chance in the US. I don't agree with what the poster said, I was just applying your point to his.

[Mr Sparkle]

Wow....:wow: This guy......

So small town town folk are Bible thumpin', gun totin' racist bigots in his mind?

And notice that he said this to his San Francisco liberal crowd.


This dude is scary........ and only FOX will cover this.




what's scary about him?

[Marx]

what's scary about him?

Because he can get away with comments like this. He claims to be such a uniter and blah blah blah, but then continues making idiotic comments like this.

[Mr Sparkle]

You said the reason these people leave Mexico is because, however remote it may be, they stand a better chance in the US. I don't agree with what the poster said, I was just applying your point to his.

you're very badly applying a point.
they come to help their families, if leaving them in state custody was an option they would just do so in Mexico.
most people that go to the US send money back to their families, their mothers and fathers and extended families in some cases.
what Matt is advocating is both insane and mechanically inhumane.
the fact that anyone gets behind that line of reasoning is scary enough?

[BlackLantern]

you're very badly applying a point.
they come to help their families, if leaving them in state custody was an option they would just do so in Mexico.
most people that go to the US send money back to their families, their mothers and fathers and extended families in some cases.
what Matt is advocating is both insane and mechanically inhumane.
the fact that anyone gets behind that line of reasoning is scary enough?

First part of the problem is to attack the institution that supports the illegal immigrants...the businesses that employ them and the housing that allows them to rent. Second is to let Mexicans know that they cannot come to the US illegally....how that is accomplished I am not sure....

[Matt]

you're very badly applying a point.
they come to help their families, if leaving them in state custody was an option they would just do so in Mexico.
most people that go to the US send money back to their families, their mothers and fathers and extended families in some cases.
what Matt is advocating is both insane and mechanically inhumane.
the fact that anyone gets behind that line of reasoning is scary enough?

Its not insane or inhumane. If they'd like, they can take their children back to Mexico with them. It will be their choice. It will be the only way to curb people getting pregnant and coming to America simply to birth the child in a desperate attempt to get citizenship. Law breaking should not be rewarded. Plain and simple.

[Mr Sparkle]

Its not insane or inhumane. If they'd like, they can take their children back to Mexico with them. It will be their choice. It will be the only way to curb people getting pregnant and coming to America simply to birth the child in a desperate attempt to get citizenship. Law breaking should not be rewarded. Plain and simple.

you do understand people meet and have children out of love and or lust once in the us right?:huh: :up: in fact, that's the majority of people, as a pregnant woman would most likely die on the way over.

[Memphis Slim]

Meh, whats the point, he'll get away with this too.


The media loves him.

[Varient]

Those business should be punished and I'd like to see someone go to an unemployed persons house and offer them a job picking fruit and see what the response is..

U musta never ever been in dire straights huh?

I remember my father working two jobs at one point because he couldn't get one doing what he wanted - because we had to eat and have a place to stay.

Less than four years ago I worked two jobs AND went to community college because my parents and children needed to eat and have a place to stay.

If Someone had COME TO MY DOOR during the times when I was not able to find work and offered me minimum wage to pick fruit,.. I would've packed a lunch and grabbed my coat.

Tsk.

[Mr Sparkle]

Because he can get away with comments like this. He claims to be such a uniter and blah blah blah, but then continues making idiotic comments like this.

so you think that he was stating something fictitious or un-real?

[Marx]

The media loves him.

:whatever:

[BlackLantern]

you do understand people meet and have children out of love and or lust once in the us right?:huh: :up: in fact, that's the majority of people, as a pregnant woman would most likely die on the way over.

To get technical, if planned right a couple could conceive in Mexico and make the trip to the US while she is only a few weeks along in the pregnancy.

[Matt]

you do understand people meet and have children out of love and or lust once in the us right?:huh: :up: in fact, that's the majority of people, as a pregnant woman would most likely die on the way over.

I'm not sure I understand your point...They can take their kids back to Mexico with them, or being as the child would be a citizen, they can leave it in State custody. Parent's choice. Just because someone has a child does not mean we are obligated to grant the parent amnesty.

[Marx]

I'm not sure I understand your point...They can take their kids back to Mexico with them, or being as the child would be a citizen, they can leave it in State custody. Parent's choice. Just because someone has a child does not mean we are obligated to grant the parent amnesty.

A very valid point.

[Memphis Slim]

And again I'll answer - she'd be burned at the stake! I still don't understand why Obama continues to get the free pass. Sure he has had some bumps along the way, but he has gotten away with far too much.


Because he's black. Geraldine Ferraro said it and got branded a racist. But it's true! He is lucky to be who he is , at this moment in history. No white person could get away with any of this stuff.

the race card pays dividends.

We're seeing with our own eyes.....over and over.

[Mr Sparkle]

I'm not sure I understand your point...They can take their kids back to Mexico with them, or being as the child would be a citizen, they can leave it in State custody. Parent's choice. Just because someone has a child does not mean we are obligated to grant the parent amnesty.

again.
you would separate a family to teach someone a "lesson" like I said, how very humane.:huh: but then, you called Illegally immigrating to a country that hates your guts to work for almost nothing the "easy way" so.
I'm not that surprised.

[Malice]

hold on here.
From what I know, Mexico has almost no middle class anymore.

Its become 90% poor, 5% middle class and then 5% rich..
Sparkle...granted the numbers I am sure are off, is that the case?

[Mr Sparkle]

To get technical, if planned right a couple could conceive in Mexico and make the trip to the US while she is only a few weeks along in the pregnancy.

oh.....gawd:whatever:

[Marx]

Because he's black. Geraldine Ferraro said it and got branded a racist. But it's true! He is lucky to be who he is , at this moment in history. No white person could get away with any of this stuff.

the race card pays dividends.

We're seeing with our own eyes.....over and over.

It's just very disturbing Slim.

[BlackLantern]

oh.....gawd:whatever:

I'm fairly sure its happened once or twice...

[Mr Sparkle]

hold on here.
From what I know, Mexico has almost no middle class anymore.

Its become 90% poor, 5% middle class and then 5% rich..
Sparkle...granted the numbers I am sure are off, is that the case?

no.
it has almost no "middle class" anymore, but it has a lot of LOWER middle class.
the rich are actually about 2% and the upper middle class is about 16% the lower middle class is about 32% and then the poor are the most screwed of all with about 50% of people living in poverty and about 25% of those living in "EXTREME" poverty.

correction I mean a fifth of those living in poverty. not 5%

[Matt]

again.
you would separate a family to teach someone a "lesson" like I said, how very humane.:huh: but then, you called Illegally immigrating to a country that hates your guts to work for almost nothing the "easy way" so.
I'm not that surprised.

No, the parent would be making the choice to divide their family. Otherwise they could go back to their own country, as a family. It is not our problem that Mexicans want to come here. We have no legal or ethical obligation to oblidge illegal immigrants.

[Varient]

hold on here.
From what I know, Mexico has almost no middle class anymore.

Its become 90% poor, 5% middle class and then 5% rich..
Sparkle...granted the numbers I am sure are off, is that the case?

Scary part two:

It has been said that America has been wearing away our middle class for the last 60 years.

So someday we will be like Mexico?

(((Shudder)))

[Matt]

I'm fairly sure its happened once or twice...

Or they can simply sneak in and then conceive, which is not uncommon.

[Mr Sparkle]

No, the parent would be making the choice to divide their family. Otherwise they could go back to their own country, as a family. It is not our problem that Mexicans want to come here. We have no legal or ethical obligation to oblidge illegal immigrants.

no, just no LEGAL obligation.
of course it doesn't occur to you that you'd be taking a born citizens rights.
but then. again I guess it doesn't fit into your mindset.
they are just "criminals" to you. and really, your mindset is pretty typical. there's really no amount of arguments to be raised you won't see them as human beings, desperate enough to go to your country.
so, yeah, I don;t really care.
BTW you do know that recently economists revealed at 1% net positive effect on the US economy from illegal immigration? ( not just Mexicans mind you)

[Mr Sparkle]

Or they can simply sneak in and then conceive, which is not uncommon.

yeah, they should stay celibate as not to inconvenience you.:whatever:

[Matt]

1 positive study does not negate the numerous studies that show negative effects of illegal immigration.

And no, it is not our ethical obligation to take care of someone who breaks our laws. I sympathize, really, I do. Your country has a crappy economy. It isn't our problem. Plain and simple. Is it cold? Sure. But, that is the situation we have been forced into.

[Matt]

yeah, they should stay celibate as not to inconvenience you.:whatever:

Or you should just not break our laws to begin with and either immigrate through legal methods or stay in your own country.

[Mr Sparkle]

Or you should just not break our laws to begin with and either immigrate through legal methods or stay in your own country.

not a choice to them really, they don't qualify for legal immigration, nor can they wait 10 years or more while their families starve right now.
sorry if they inconvenience you, but studying history will tell you that the heads of empires are often comprised of a large amount of immigrants.

[BlackLantern]

not a choice to them really, they don't qualify for legal immigration, nor can they wait 10 years or more while their families starve right now.
sorry if they inconvenience you, but studying history will tell you that the heads of empires are often comprised of a large amount of immigrants.

What are the criteria for "legal immigration"?

[Mr Sparkle]

1 positive study does not negate the numerous studies that show negative effects of illegal immigration.

so if more studies come to light that back it up, you'd reverse your stance?

And no, it is not our ethical obligation to take care of someone who breaks our laws. I sympathize, really, I do. Your country has a crappy economy. It isn't our problem. Plain and simple. Is it cold? Sure.But, that is the situation we have been forced into.

it is, sorry, your politicians often call your country the " leader of the free world" so...sadly, that has responsibilities along with the rights of doing what you want all over the world.:csad:

[Mr Sparkle]

What are the criteria for "legal immigration"?

"To immigrate to the United States, it's not enough that you have led an exemplary life," he says. "Under current law, you can't be admitted unless you affirmatively fit into one of a few statutory pigeonholes such as family relationships in the U.S., specially needed professional or work skills, refugees, or winning the lottery. Most undocumented immigrants have no category to apply under." (http://news-info.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/7079.html)

plus the quotas for Mexico are stringent.
on two different occasions companies in the US wanted me to come to work for them legally and thus began the "skilled worker visa" process.
the amount of visas for Mexico had expired and they were unable to employ me. I'm bilingual own my own house, computer literate, have a higher education and 10 years experience in the field of employment, plus international awards for excellence in my practice.
what do you think the chances or some illiterate farmer from the south are?

[BlackLantern]

its discussions like these that lead me to believe we need a General Discussion thread in the Politics Forum

[Mr Sparkle]

I blame OBAMA! :cmad:

[hippie_hunter]

And call me crazy, but Obama seems like the bitter one. "I'm losing in the rust belt states like PA and Ohio and Michigan, so they must be gun totting, racist, zealots." That is what this speech says to me. Plain and simple.

I think he's describing more than just that, he's rather bitter over the fact that rural areas just don't vote for him at all. The only reason why he won rural Midwestern states were because they were caucuses.

If they were primaries, I bet that Edwards would have won Iowa and Clinton would have won the majority of Midwestern states (again rural areas don't vote Obama at the very least).

You can also say that he's bitter towards the Rust Belt states because he's downright losing in all of them in polls with McCain with the exception of his homestate. Even in Democratically leaning Ohio and Pennsylvania and the Democratic stronghold of Michigan.

That said, Obama does have a point here and I do agree with him on these statements though not in the extreme fashion he says and he does overgeneralize a bit. This is more of a Ferraro moment for Obama, yeah he's right to an extent, but it's just downright retarded to say in public, especially when you're running for President claiming to be a uniter.

[hippie_hunter]

Scary part two:

It has been said that America has been wearing away our middle class for the last 60 years.

So someday we will be like Mexico?

(((Shudder)))

No, the United States will probably remain a middle class society for a long, long time.

[Marx]

not a choice to them really, they don't qualify for legal immigration, nor can they wait 10 years or more while their families starve right now.
sorry if they inconvenience you, but studying history will tell you that the heads of empires are often comprised of a large amount of immigrants.

Anyone can qualify for legal immigration Sparkle. To suggest otherwise is inaccurate. Trust me, I work with this kind of thing. So long as you have the funds and you go through the proper legal channels into this country, you can lawfully immigrate.

[Malice]

I think its a general statement that most people dont have a problem of immigration, its illegal immigration that they have a problem with.

The fact it takes 10 years to come here, say something, good or bad about our system, I say it needs extra funding to clean it up and make it a little more efficient.

[Marx]

Hey guys, I just started a thread on Immigration if we want to open up a full blown debate about it! Enjoy! :yay:

[Malice]

I already had one, it died out.

[Marx]

I already had one, it died out.

I just now saw that. I think a bump was needed then. :cwink:

[jaguarr]

"To immigrate to the United States, it's not enough that you have led an exemplary life," he says. "Under current law, you can't be admitted unless you affirmatively fit into one of a few statutory pigeonholes such as family relationships in the U.S., specially needed professional or work skills, refugees, or winning the lottery. Most undocumented immigrants have no category to apply under." (http://news-info.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/7079.html)

plus the quotas for Mexico are stringent.
on two different occasions companies in the US wanted me to come to work for them legally and thus began the "skilled worker visa" process.
the amount of visas for Mexico had expired and they were unable to employ me. I'm bilingual own my own house, computer literate, have a higher education and 10 years experience in the field of employment, plus international awards for excellence in my practice.
what do you think the chances or some illiterate farmer from the south are?


LOL! I like how winning the lottery can get you instant citizenship. Can't let that tax opportunity slip away! :hehe:

jag

[BlackLantern]

LOL! I like how winning the lottery can get you instant citizenship. Can't let that tax opportunity slip away! :hehe:

jag

Yes...come to America and spend your money on hookers and blow....:woot:

[The Senator]

The argument over illegal immigration is absolutely pointless, and Obama is absolutely correct when he implies that a certain demographic of rural voters have become overly xenophobic in the process. Many Americans have scapegoated illegal immigrants as being the one reason why our economy is so screwed up, as a reason why many folks can't get decent jobs in some parts of the country... haven't they stopped to think that maybe, just maybe, there are other, more intelligent reasons as to why they can't find work? Like maybe because factories all across the country are being shut down because American jobs are being outsourced overseas by the politicians they elect into office? Or maybe because they simply aren't qualified enough to get the jobs their searching for? Or maybe, just maybe, the job market sucks in the regions where they live? Hell, maybe they live in regions which once had a booming industrial sector-- like any given city in the Rust Belt-- but that industrial sector has been declining for decades now...

Sitting around, *****ing about how those damn Mexicans are taking our jobs and murdering our police officers and spitting in the face of liberty isn't going to accomplish anything. It only fuels the xenophobic fire which has been burning here for way too long. If you lose your job, don't sit around and ***** about the Mexicans; find a new one. If you can't find a new job, don't sit around and ***** about the Mexicans; keep trying. If you keep trying and you aren't successful, again, sitting around and *****ing about the Mexicans won't fix a damn thing. We need to figure out a sensible solution to this problem which fixes our economy and makes obtaining citizenship easier for those living in Mexico who want to come here.

[Kelly]

What is weird is I live in an area that is a major industrial blue collar area....largest industrial area in Texas....which makes it one of the largest in the US......I've never heard anyone *****ing about "those damn Mexicans, taking their jobs".....they are just hard working people, that go to the high school football games on Friday night, drink beer in their backyard on Saturday and go to church on Sunday......then they go to work on Monday and work their ass off......regular people.

[The Senator]

What is weird is I live in an area that is a major industrial blue collar area....largest industrial area in Texas....which makes it one of the largest in the US......I've never heard anyone *****ing about "those damn Mexicans, taking their jobs".....they are just hard working people, that go to the high school football games on Friday night, drink beer in their backyard on Saturday and go to church on Sunday......then they go to work on Monday and work their ass off......regular people.

Well, I lived in an industrial section of upstate New York, and heard exactly what I wrote about... maybe the Texans are just nicer...

[Kelly]

Well, I lived in an industrial section of upstate New York, and heard exactly what I wrote about... maybe the Texans are just nicer...


Nah, just do their job, do their thing.......and what is even stranger is........Houston, is one of the largest populations of Mexicans in the US.....maybe they (Texas Rednecks) are just more informed as to exactly what jobs these people are actually getting, and they realize they aren't actually taking their jobs........ya see, my kids in my classes aren't worried about their jobs going to an illegal immigrant......because they know what jobs they will be getting once they enter the work world.....again, more informed........maybe Obama should have spent alittle more time in Houston with these guys......ya know.....get a more informed view of "rednecks" before lumping them all into one "ignorant" category.....

[The Senator]

Nah, just do their job, do their thing.......and what is even stranger is........Houston, is one of the largest populations of Mexicans in the US.....maybe they (Texas Rednecks) are just more informed as to exactly what jobs these people are actually getting, and they realize they aren't actually taking their jobs........ya see, my kids in my classes aren't worried about their jobs going to an illegal immigrant......because they know what jobs they will be getting once they enter the work world.....again, more informed........maybe Obama should have spent alittle more time in Houston with these guys......ya know.....get a more informed view of "rednecks" before lumping them all into one "ignorant" category.....

I don't think he was lumping them all into one category though, nor do I think he was explicitly referring to all 'rural voters' as xenophobic rednecks. I think he was saying that xenophobia has emerged amongst many of these voters when it really shouldn't have, and that they have become bitter and angry at the economy and are looking for anyone or anything to blame in the process. And it's true, when you look at it. In 2000, Karl Rove and co. went into the traditionally Democratic state of West Virginia and spread the word that the Democrats were going to take their guns away and would keep immorality in the White House. Bush won the state, the first time since 1984 it had gone to a Republican. In 2004, illegal immigration was added onto that repertoire... and Bush expanded his margin of victory in WV. I'm not Obama's biggest fan, but I think this speech almost hits the nail on the head, that many of these rural voters have become convinced that illegal immigration is the root of all our problems, that Democrats want to take away their guns and that God can only be found in a Republican candidate. He should have said it better, but unfortunately he didn't...

And your points about how some people know that the jobs illegals come here and "steal" are jobs most Americans don't want are absolutely true... though many people continue to scapegoat illegals for all the problems in this country... Tom Tancredo ran for President, and he told us all that illegals were not only stealing our jobs, but that they wanted to come over here and bomb our malls and kill our children... so it even exists in the higher echelon of American society...

[Lightning Strykez!]

This Penn. comment is getting really ugly for Obama. And what's weird is...he's actually telling the truth? :confused: Yet he's being condemned for discussing the plight and attitudes of others who are less fortunate.

I dunno. When I first heard the comments live I didn't think he was trying to be elitist or snobbish. Yet the media and Hillary are trying their hardest to paint it that way.

[Matt]

This Penn. comment is getting really ugly for Obama. And what's weird is...he's actually telling the truth? :confused: Yet he's being condemned for discussing the plight and attitudes of others who are less fortunate.

I dunno. When I first heard the comments live I didn't think he was trying to be elitist or snobbish. Yet the media and Hillary are trying their hardest to paint it that way.

He is not telling the truth. He pretty much generalized all of the rust belt states as small rural racist zealots who clutch to their guns.

[Lightning Strykez!]

He is not telling the truth. He pretty much generalized all of the rust belt states as small rural racist zealots who clutch to their guns.

I have a feeling you know that was the farthest thing from his intent, but whatever. :whatever:

Poor choice of words? Perhaps. But he clearly wasn't trying to hurt those folks feelings out there. He was making a point about Washington, the economy and how people are fed up with it.

[Matt]

I have a feeling you know that was the farthest thing from his intent, but whatever. :whatever:

Poor choice of words? Perhaps. But he clearly wasn't trying to hurt those folks feelings out there. He was making a point about Washington, the economy and how people are fed up with it.

I don't see how it could've been anything but his intent. "Antipathy of people who are different?" That is a fancy way of saying racist LS. After all, antipathy by definition is hate.

I'll ask you this LS!, a question I asked earlier in the thread and still haven't gotten an answer to from an Obama supporter:

And yet it is okay for Obama to make them. Lets even take this a step further...Obama assumes all us Pennsylvania, and Ohio, northeastern and midwestern hicks are just a bunch of yokels who vote on guns and Jeebus and them illegals who be takin' our jobs...and people seem to be okay with that...but imagine if Hillary Clinton said something like "Black people in big cities are bitter over the past, so they want to vote for another black man who will ensure they have welfare and food stamps." Imagine the hell that would be raised if Clinton said that. But when it comes down to it, is what Obama said really all that different? Sure, he is charasmatic. And he paints it in nice, pretty big words that most can't understand like "antipathy of people who are different from them." But when you boil it down, his horrible generalization is no different than the one I put up above.

Would you be saying "Clinton was just making a point about how Washington insiders use Welfare programs to exploit lower classes and minorities." Hell no, you would raise hell. So why is it okay, for Obama, a so called uniter to write entire states of people off as hillbilly rednecks who clutch to their guns and religion cause they are too racist to understand how the world works? Clinton would be torn a new ******* for a statement like this, and rightfully so. Obama should be no different.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I don't see how it could've been anything but his intent. "Antipathy of people who are different?" That is a fancy way of saying racist LS. After all, antipathy by definition is hate.

I'll ask you this LS!, a question I asked earlier in the thread and still haven't gotten an answer to from an Obama supporter:



Would you be saying "Clinton was just making a point about how Washington insiders use Welfare programs to exploit lower classes and minorities." Hell no, you would raise hell. So why is it okay, for Obama, a so called uniter to write entire states of people off as hillbilly rednecks who clutch to their guns and religion cause they are too racist to understand how the world works? Clinton would be torn a new ******* for a statement like this, and rightfully so. Obama should be no different.

First of all, I'm not an "Obama supporter." I did not vote for him in the primary here. I am an independant and simply call BS when I see it. Obama happens to spew less of it than the other candidates.

Secondly, your analogy doesn't carry water, because when you consider the context of his comments he was obviously not taking a swipe against anyone--least of all from a racist standpoint. People DO think that way in this country--there is an anti-alien sentiment everywhere and people are fed up with Washington. As a result they turn to various vices to express themselves--and protect themselves. Hillary would not say something THAT stupid because I doubt she actually believes it. You're going to extremes.

To be honest? I think those who already have an axe to grind with this man are simply looking for something to pacify it.

[Matt]

First of all, I'm not an "Obama supporter." I did not vote for him in the primary here. I am an independant and simply call BS when I see it. Obama happens to spew less of it than the other candidates.

Secondly, your analogy doesn't carry water, because when you consider the context of his comments he was obviously not taking a swipe against anyone--least of all from a racist standpoint. People DO think that way in this country--there is an anti-alien sentiment everywhere and people are fed up with Washington. As a result they turn to various vices to express themselves--and protect themselves. Hillary would not say something THAT stupid because I doubt she actually believes it. You're going to extremes.

To be honest? I think those who already have an axe to grind with this man are simply looking for something to pacify it.

Obama did not say this was "everywhere." He singled out and generalized a group of people, wrote them off as stupid hillbillies. As if the only reason they choose to be religious or defend the second amendment is because they are scared the evil Mexicans are going to get them. He called an entire group of people, hard working people in several states, racist. There is really no way around that. It is not a matter of villifying him. It is matter of being insulted as someone from a small steel town in Pennsylvania.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Obama did not say this was "everywhere." He singled out and generalized a group of people, wrote them off as stupid hillbillies. As if the only reason they choose to be religious or defend the second amendment is because they are scared the evil Mexicans are going to get them. He called an entire group of people, hard working people in several states, racist. There is really no way around that. It is not a matter of villifying him. It is matter of being insulted as someone from a small steel town in Pennsylvania.


Well if that's the way you want to take it Matt, take it that way. *shrugs*

I guess I have to live there to see the racist undertones in his comments. :whatever:

[The Senator]

Obama's quote:


You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

I don't see where he's saying "All rural voters are racist xenophobic zealots." I feel like some people are taking this a little too far...

[Lightning Strykez!]

Obama's quote:



I don't see where he's saying "All rural voters are racist xenophobic zealots." I feel like some people are taking this a little too far...

Thanks Jman. As a Hillary supporter your comment has a lot more weight with me on this matter. Like I said, people who were looking for anything--and I do mean ANYTHING--to use for ammunition are taking this comment waaaaaaaay out of context. I just don't believe he was trying to insult anyone with it.

No offense Matt, but you (and others I'm reading on-line) seem a bit bent out of shape about this...and perhaps even a tad oversensitive.

[Malice]

Didnt seem to me that bad...could have been worded better...but ehh...he is human

[Matt]

Obama's quote:



I don't see where he's saying "All rural voters are racist xenophobic zealots." I feel like some people are taking this a little too far...

Not really. Just gotta break down his words:

"then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them"

Antipathy by definition is hate or dislike. Translation: "A hatred of people who are different from them." Translation 2: "A hatred of people 0f a different race." Translation 3: "Racism."

So because of this racism they "cling to their guns or religion." Meaning, that the only reason these people are spiritual or wish to protect their Constitutional rights is because they are bigots.

[The Senator]

Obama did not say this was "everywhere." He singled out and generalized a group of people, wrote them off as stupid hillbillies.

No, he said that these folks have been through hardship and have looked at numerous places to lift them out of that hardship, and in the process many of them have become bitter. He didn't write them off as "stupid hillbillies."


As if the only reason they choose to be religious or defend the second amendment is because they are scared the evil Mexicans are going to get them. He called an entire group of people, hard working people in several states, racist.

Wrong again. He said that the bitterness these folks have felt in these turbulent times have caused many of them to adopt an anti-immigration/ xenophobic mentality, which is absolutely true in many rural areas. He did not say or even imply that all rural voters in Pennsylvania are rednecks who point their guns at their front doors because they're afraid the evil Mexicans are going to invade and steal their jobs.

He's not flawless, but people are really stretching this scandal thin...

[Matt]

Thanks Jman. As a Hillary supporter your comment has a lot more weight with me on this matter. Like I said, people who were looking for anything--and I do mean ANYTHING--to use for ammunition are taking this comment waaaaaaaay out of context. I just don't believe he was trying to insult anyone with it.

No offense Matt, but you (and others I'm reading on-line) seem a bit bent out of shape about this...and perhaps even a tad oversensitive.

Not at all. I simply find it offensive as someone from one of these states. Then again, I didn't find Geraldine Ferarro's comments offensive. An African American friend of mine told me it is because I'm not. I concede that possibility. Perhaps the reason some of you can't find this offensive is because you aren't from one of these states that he is generalizing. I'm sure Southerners would get pretty damn defensive if he said they are "bitter over the civil war" and are holding onto religion or guns due to their "antipathy against black people." Which may be true in some areas, but to generalize everyone that way is what seems wrong to me.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Not really. Just gotta break down his words:

"then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them"

Antipathy by definition is hate or dislike. Translation: "A hatred of people who are different from them." Translation 2: "A hatred of people 0f a different race." Translation 3: "Racism."

So because of this racism they "cling to their guns or religion." Meaning, that the only reason these people are spiritual or wish to protect their Constitutional rights is because they are bigots.

Omigod. Can you say "STRETCH?"

*sigh*

Matt, the only person generalizing "everyone" in Penn. with those comments is you! He simply didn't say all that. This so-called interpretation you're spinning here is 150 % contrary to his ENTIRE campaign message.

My question is why are you reading so much vitriol into it??

[Matt]

No, he said that these folks have been through hardship and have looked at numerous places to lift them out of that hardship, and in the process many of them have become bitter. He didn't write them off as "stupid hillbillies."

Yes, he did. By suggesting that they are too stupid to understand what he is talking about because they want to clutch their guns or religion or hatred towards illegal immigrants he DID imply it.


Wrong again. He said that the bitterness these folks have felt in these turbulent times have caused many of them to adopt an anti-immigration/ xenophobic mentality, which is absolutely true in many rural areas. He did not say or even imply that all rural voters in Pennsylvania are rednecks who point their guns at their front doors because they're afraid the evil Mexicans are going to invade and steal their jobs.

He's not flawless, but people are really stretching this scandal thin...

No, it is NOT true. Maybe among some INDIVIDUALS. Areas of people are not collectively racist as Senator Obama seems to imply.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Not at all. I simply find it offensive as someone from one of these states. Then again, I didn't find Geraldine Ferarro's comments offensive. An African American friend of mine told me it is because I'm not. I concede that possibility. Perhaps the reason some of you can't find this offensive is because you aren't from one of these states that he is generalizing. I'm sure Southerners would get pretty damn defensive if he said they are "bitter over the civil war" and are holding onto religion or guns due to their "antipathy against black people." Which may be true in some areas, but to generalize everyone that way is what seems wrong to me.

No.

That has nothing to do with it.

You keep using the term "generalize". Did he at ANY time say "everyone" in your state feels that way? He said "they". TRANSLATION: Some people. Are you denying that there aren't some people--even a LOT of people--that feel the way he described?

[Matt]

Omigod. Can you say "STRETCH?"

*sigh*

Matt, the only person generalizing "everyone" in Penn. with those comments is you! He simply didn't say all that. This so-called interpretation you're spinning here is 150 % contrary to his ENTIRE campaign message.

My question is why are you reading so much vitriol into it??

Take it how you want. To say entire areas of people feel a certain way is a generalization. And really, there is only one definition of "antipathy." I just don't see how else there is to read into it.

[Matt]

No.

That has nothing to do with it.

You keep using the term "generalize". Did he at ANY time say "everyone" in your state feels that way? He said "they". TRANSLATION: Some people. Are you denying that there aren't some people--even a LOT of people--that feel the way he described?

But he didn't say "individuals" feel this way. He said "Areas." He is generalizing entire areas, entire towns, entire cities.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Take it how you want. To say entire areas of people feel a certain way is a generalization. And really, there is only one definition of "antipathy." I just don't see how else there is to read into it.

Okay, now you're simply being unreasonable and stubborn. I still :heart: you though.

But man-love notwithstanding, he didn't say "the entire area" feels that way. Stop blowing this out of proportion dude. :down

[Matt]

Okay, now you're simply being unreasonable and stubborn. I still :heart: you though.

But man-love notwithstanding, he didn't say "the entire area" feels that way. Stop blowing this out of proportion dude. :down

He said "areas." Those are his words. He never mentioned an individual. He mentioned areas and towns. Perhaps you are just apologetic. But never-the-less, I :heart: you too. :cwink:

[Lightning Strykez!]

But he didn't say "individuals" feel this way. He said "Areas." He is generalizing entire areas, entire towns, entire cities.

WHAT??!? :lmao:

Okay. I'm done with you for tonight. I'm going to bed. And I suggest you do the same. Because you are tired.

Very tired. :p

[BlackLantern]

I think the crux of Matts' point is that no other candidate would have gotten away with saying what Obama said and not kissed goodbye to their political aspirations while Obama gets off with a slap on the wrist and a free pass...

[The Senator]

Not really. Just gotta break down his words:

"then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them"

Here's what I get out of that statement:

Many voters in states such as Pennsylvania and Michigan have been raped up the ass by globalization and outsourcing, and as a result have seen their jobs disappear en masse. Because of this, many of them are out of work and are now leading very different lives, and cannot understand why something like this happened. And as a result, they have become bitter, confused, and a little bit paranoid in the process. Illegal immigration has become a scapegoat; these voters have become convinced that God can only be found in one political party; and guns... well that shouldn't be in there... but everything else is quite valid the way I read it.


Antipathy by definition is hate or dislike. Translation: "A hatred of people who are different from them." Translation 2: "A hatred of people 0f a different race." Translation 3: "Racism."

Again, you're stretching this way too far. Let's say your first translation is correct. Your second translation, though, is only sufficient to you. For all you know, he could have been referring to 'a hated of people who like M & Ms instead of Skittles,' or 'a hatred of people who drive Volvos instead of Fords.' It certainly doesn't jump from "a hatred of people who are different from them" to "Obama thinks all rural voters are racist!" nor does it even suggest a level of intolerance on those voters' behalf. He's saying that folks have developed a strong negative view towards those who are different from them, which can encompass a wide variety of "differences" in the context of his speech, including illegal immigrants, homosexuals, Democrats, corporate big wigs, and others. He is not painting rust belt voters as ignorant racist bigots because they are out of work.


So because of this racism they "cling to their guns or religion." Meaning, that the only reason these people are spiritual or wish to protect their Constitutional rights is because they are bigots.

Or, he was saying 'they also cling to their guns or religion,' which is what I got out of it. Not the best way to put it, but he didn't say "these folks are faithful because they hate Mexicans and that's also why they like guns, too!" Again, this is being stretched way out of line. No one is dissecting McCain's factual fallacies when it comes to Iran and Iraq or Al Qaeda and the insurgency; No one is dissecting Clinton's blatant lies about being under sniper fire in Bosnia when she wasn't; no one is dissecting McCain's utter disrespect for women (considering he referred to his wife as a c**t) or the Vietnamese (he referred to them as 'gooks' before the 2000 campaign). And the aforementioned incidents are far more divisive than a silly comment about the bitterness of some rural voters...

[Lightning Strykez!]

I think the crux of Matts' point is that no other candidate would have gotten away with saying what Obama said and not kissed goodbye to their political aspirations while Obama gets off with a slap on the wrist and a free pass...

Honestly? If Hillary or McCain had said the EXACT same thing I would not be offended by it at all. There is truth to the words spoken.

The REAL issue here is they are trying to hurt Mr. Obama who is becoming more and more "inevitable" every day. That's all this is. :o

[Lightning Strykez!]

He said "areas." Those are his words. He never mentioned an individual. He mentioned areas and towns. Perhaps you are just apologetic.

LOL I am not being apologetic at all. You're just reacting like a "typical white person." Stop being so typical.













:lmao:

[The Senator]

I think the crux of Matts' point is that no other candidate would have gotten away with saying what Obama said and not kissed goodbye to their political aspirations while Obama gets off with a slap on the wrist and a free pass...

Except Obama isn't getting a free pass with this. This news is on every channel, being analyzed by every analyst and pundit, as well as every politician who has something at stake in Pennsylvania and Indiana. Evan Bayh has told the DNC to remember Obama's comments come convention time; MSNBC did an eight-minute segment on this earlier today where several pundits said voters will find this inexcusable; and the RNC is jumping on this as well. I had a flight this afternoon, and when I left the ground there was a story on CNN about this very incident and when I landed an hour or so later there was another story on MSNBC, Fox News and CNN at the same exact time.

So he's getting his ass torn apart for these remarks. He isn't just being sent back to the campaign trail with a lil' swollen wrist; he's getting his ass kicked for comments which really aren't all that false.

[BlackLantern]

I have stayed away from cable news for the past couple weeks and probably will until the conventions start up...

[Lightning Strykez!]

Exactly. ^

It's way blown out of proportion. It's like the media is just bored and itching for something "controversial" to talk about.

[Kelly]

Exactly. ^

It's way blown out of proportion. It's like the media is just bored and itching for something "controversial" to talk about.


I could say the same thing about Geraldine Ferraro's comments....

[The Senator]

I could say the same thing about Geraldine Ferraro's comments....

Both cases are accurate reflections of when the media took someone's comments and blew them completely out of the water. Ferraro and Obama both make valid points; however, because some voters lack the ability to put some comments in context, her comments were slaughtered and declared racist; and because some people think candidates aren't allowed to dissect certain voters' motives, or express the oh-so-deplorable thought that illegal immigration is practically a non-issue, Obama is being attacked for what he's said as well.

So it looks like we'll have yet another week of campaign bull **** to hear about, while any mention of issues such as the war in Iraq and the lackluster economy will be swept under the rug... AGAIN...

[The Chairman]

There's been a load of controversy lately over some comments Elton John made at the fundraising concert he held for Hilary's campaign.

[The Senator]

There's been a load of controversy lately over some comments Elton John made at the fundraising concert he held for Hilary's campaign.

Elton John's opinion doesn't matter. He's a singer and a performer; not a political surrogate or a political professional.

[The Chairman]

Elton John's opinion doesn't matter. He's a singer and a performer; not a political surrogate or a political professional.

Oh, I agree. I'm just saying that they've been making a big deal out of them, and the fact that he's a Hilary supporter means a lot of idiots will indelibly use his comments to discredit her.

Celebrities endorsements generally hurt more than help candidates, the notable exception being Kennedy.

[Mr Sparkle]

Didnt seem to me that bad...could have been worded better...but ehh...he is human

the only thing that made me cringe was the hard link to Cllinton.
that was reaching hardcore.
:whatever: " these people had no jobs because they fell through the cracks of the CLINTON admin."

Jesus, make a little less obvious next time for those of us with working brains.

[Mr Sparkle]

I could say the same thing about Geraldine Ferraro's comments....

you'd be wrong.:o

[The Senator]

A good article on why Obama is in trouble this November:

What Clinton wishes she could say (Politico)
Why, ask many Democrats and media commentators, won’t Hillary Rodham Clinton see the long odds against her, put her own ambitions aside, and gracefully embrace Barack Obama as the inevitable Democratic nominee?

Here is why: She and Bill Clinton both devoutly believe that Obama’s likely victory is a disaster-in-waiting. Naïve Democrats just don’t see it. And a timid, pro-Obama press corps won’t tell the story.

But Hillary Clinton won’t tell it, either.

A lot of coverage of the Clinton campaign supposes them to be in kitchen-sink mode—hurling every pot and pan, no matter the damage this might do to Obama as the likely Democratic nominee in the fall.

In fact, the Democratic race has not been especially rough by historical standards. What’s more, our conversations with Democrats who speak to the Clintons make plain that their public comments are only the palest version of what they really believe: That if Obama is the nominee a likely Democratic victory would turn to a near-certain defeat.

Far from a no-holds-barred affair, the Democratic contest has been an exercise in self-censorship.

Rip off the duct tape and here is what they would say: Obama has serious problems with Jewish voters (goodbye Florida), working class whites (goodbye Ohio) and Hispanics (goodbye, New Mexico.)

Republicans will also ruthlessly exploit openings that Clinton—in the genteel confines of an intra-party contest—never could. Top targets: Obama’s radioactive personal associations, his liberal ideology, his exotic life story, his coolly academic and elitist style

This view has been an article of faith among Clinton advisers for months, but it got powerful new affirmation last week with Obama’s clumsy ruminations about why “bitter” small-town voters turn to guns and God.
Story Behind the Story


There’s nothing to say that the Clintonites are right about Obama’s presumed vulnerabilities. But one argument seems indisputably true: Obama is on the brink of the Democratic nomination without having had to confront head-on the evidence about his general election challenges.

That is why some friends describe Clinton as seeing herself on a mission to save Democrats from themselves. Her candidacy may be a long shot, but no one should expect she will end it unless or until every last door has been shut.

Skepticism about Obama’s general election prospects extends beyond Clinton backers. We spoke to unaffiliated Democratic lawmakers, veteran lobbyists, and campaign operatives who believe the rush of enthusiasm for Obama’s charisma and fresh face has inhibited sober appraisals of his potential weaknesses.

The concerns revolve around two themes.

The first is based on the campaign so far. If the voting patterns evident in many states in nomination voting continued into the fall they would leave Obama vulnerable if McCain can approximate the traditional GOP performance in key states.

The second is based on fear about the campaign ahead.

Stories about Obama’s Chicago associations with 1960s radicals Bernardine Dohrn and William Ayers landed with barely a ripple. So, too, did questions about whether he once backed a total ban on handguns (he says no but in a 1996 state legislative race his campaign filled out a questionaire saying yes.) Obama’s graceful handling of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright controversy may have turned that into a net positive.

But all this was in a Democratic contest. What about about when Obama’s running against a Republican?

Let’s take the first point: Obama’s electoral coalition. His impressive success to date comes predominately from strong support among upscale, college-educated whites and overwhelming support from African-Americans.

Assuming he is the Democratic nominee, it seems virtually certain he would bring turnout of these groups to historic levels.

But there is reason to question whether he would be able to perform at average levels with other main pillars of the traditional Democratic coalition: blue-collar whites, Jews and Hispanics. He has run decently among these groups in some places, but in general he’s run well behind her.

Obama lost the Jewish vote by double-digits in the battleground state of Florida—where this constituency looms large--and that was before controversy over the anti-Israel remarks of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

He won only about one-third of Hispanic votes on Super Tuesday – and did even worse a month later in Texas. A Democratic nominee needs big margins with Hispanics to win states like New Mexico, California, Colorado and Arizona. In the fall, Obama would be running against a Republican with a record on immigration that will resonate with Hispanics.

Then there’s the lower-income white vote. Does it seem odd that a woman with a polarizing reputation would be rolling up enormous margins among some of the country’s most traditional voters? Three out of every four blue-collar whites in small-towns and rural areas of Ohio voted for Clinton over Obama on March 4. The reality is, this is already an electorate with deep, racially tinged divisions—and that’s in the Democratic Party.

Cornell Belcher, Obama’s pollster, says most of these voting blocs will unite when the Democratic fighting is done. “You get a snapshot at the height of a battle within the family but after the family squabbles history shows that the family does come back together,” he said.

Fair enough. But McCain would be challenging Obama on a range of issues that would complicate this coming together---issues that Clinton did not use or used minimally because they would not be particularly effective.

McCain, by contrast, would have a free hand to exploit a paper trail showing Obama’s evolution---opponents would say reversals--over the past decade from liberal positions on gun control, the death penalty, and Middle East politics. He would exploit Obama’s current position in favor of driver’s licenses for illegal immigrants and beginning diplomatic talks with U.S. adversaries like the dictators of Iran and Venezuala. Will those issues help lower-income white voters “come back together” with Obama?

Those issues are all in-bounds. What about the issues that most journalists and probably McCain himself will consider out-of-bounds but that, if recent history is any guide, will echo nonetheless in the general election?

The last two Democratic nominees, Al Gore and John F. Kerry, were both military veterans, and both had been familiar, highly successful figures in national politics for more than two decades by the time they ran.

Both men lost control of their public images to the right-wing freak show—that network of operatives and commentators working mostly outside of the mainstream media—and ultimately lost their elections as many voters came to see them as exotic, elitist, out-of-touch, phony, and even unpatriotic.

Obama is a much less familiar figure than Kerry or Gore, with a life story that is far more exotic, who is coming out of a political milieu in Chicago politics that is far more liberal.

The freak show has already signaled its early lines of attack on Obama. Many Americans already believe---falsely—that he is a Muslim. Voter interviews already reveal widespread unease with minor and seemingly irrelevant questions like why he does not favor American flag pins on his lapel. Nor does it seem likely that voters have heard the last about Jeremiah Wright.

Obama’s advisors said they are not naïve about freak show politics. Their response is that Obama’s appeal to a new brand of politics, and his personal poise and self-confidence, will allow him to transcend attacks and caricatures in ways that Gore and Kerry could not.

Obama is indeed poised and self-confident. But the current uproar over his impromptu sociology lesson in San Francisco about “bitter” voters in Pennsylvania raise questions about his self-discipline, and his understanding of how easy it is for a politician in modern politics to lose control of his public image.

Clinton has her own baggage, to put it mildly. But it’s been rummaged through for years, so what Democrats see is pretty much what they would get.

The frustration and even anger emananating from the Clintonites comes from being unable to say in public what they think in private.

Little wonder why. Bill Clinton’s comments comparing Obama’s support in South Carolina to Jesse Jackson’s may have been rude and they were certainly impolitic. But it’s absurd to contend, as many Democrats indignantly do, that they amounted to a shocking low blow or to “playing the race card.”

The reaction underscored the essential prissiness of the Democratic contest so far. One can be sure the general election will not be such a delicate affair

[Kelly]

you'd be wrong.:o


LMAO, your arrogance is astounding sometimes....makes me laugh.:cwink:


Also, this was brought up to me quite awhile ago, and I forgot about it, but does anyone realize that this :o is actually the smilie for "embarrassment"........??? kinda funny....

[BlackLantern]

so when I campaign for Hype President can I call those who populate the Celebrity forum self abusers who cling to the false hope that they will one day meet the object of their affection, then have them fall madly in love with them, and then live happily ever after??

[jaguarr]

so when I campaign for Hype President can I call those who populate the Celebrity forum self abusers who cling to the false hope that they will one day meet the object of their affection, then have them fall madly in love with them, and then live happily ever after??

I really don't have a problem with you doing so. I'll find other reasons to not vote for you, anyway. :o

jag

[Addendum]

It wouldn't bother me if you did. Especially since I'd like to see NASA send every celebrity on the first mission to land on Jupiter

[jaguarr]

Matt can be BL's Ron Paul. :D

jag

[rdh007]

A good article on why Obama is in trouble this November:
Except that they fail to see her lose quotient is equally high.

[Marx]

A good article on why Obama is in trouble this November:

Which is why Hillary Clinton has a very valid argument for this nomination. One that seriously needs to be listened to, if the Dems can get over themselves, that is.

[jaguarr]

Except that they fail to see her lose quotient is equally high.


Yeah, I'd agree. Any article that paints Hillary Clinton as the saviour of the Democratic Party gives me cause for worry, quite frankly. Obama may have his share of issues, but so does Hillary and she's equally a detriment to her own party in many of the same ways as Obama. I view it as a case of the pot calling the kettle black, personally.

jag

[Varient]

this thread belongs on a fantasy board.

seriously.

People write like this stuff hasn't already been laid out,.... ignore issues that are major problems for part of the population, and give answers / solutions that have already been done to poor effect.

Hair splitting on a scale where we should be up to our armpits in rabbits, We have folk debating that wrong just depends on who's doing it.

imagine not getting a job in RL because someone who worked for you shot off their mouth, or your spiritual leader said "bad things" sprinkled in almost two decades of community service or your refusal to cater to the newsmedia gets you labeled?

meh.

[Matt]

Yeah, I'd agree. Any article that paints Hillary Clinton as the saviour of the Democratic Party gives me cause for worry, quite frankly. Obama may have his share of issues, but so does Hillary and she's equally a detriment to her own party in many of the same ways as Obama. I view it as a case of the pot calling the kettle black, personally.

jag

Hillary Clinton has too many skeletons and voting record issues. She will essentially become John Kerry v2.0.

Meanwhile Barack Obama is killing his own campaign. With everyone of these mini-scandals, with everyone of these "poor choice of words," with every time he descends into the mud to wrestle around with Hillary, the new voters who saw him as fresh, as well as independents become more and more turned off by him. As a commentator on Olberman said Friday night "It is becoming more obvious that he is a charasmatic Michael Dukakis."

The so called "Super Candidates" are really the worst thing that happened to the Democratic Party in years. And even if they do slide by McCain, they both have a Jimmy Carter-esque presidency written all over them and will end up allowing a young, charasmatic, outsider Republican (someone like Bobby Jindal) to fly under the radar and take the White House in 2012. And depending on how much damage A fully Democrat government does, they may lose one or both houses of Congress as well.

[terry78]

Obama is the Tim Story of the election...he was doomed from the start, and fanboys were never going to like him regardless of what he did, and any small crack in his armor would be overanalyzed. Just hoping he doesn't go the route of FF.

[Matt]

this thread belongs on a fantasy board.

seriously.

People write like this stuff hasn't already been laid out,.... ignore issues that are major problems for part of the population, and give answers / solutions that have already been done to poor effect.

Hair splitting on a scale where we should be up to our armpits in rabbits, We have folk debating that wrong just depends on who's doing it.

imagine not getting a job in RL because someone who worked for you shot off their mouth, or your spiritual leader said "bad things" sprinkled in almost two decades of community service or your refusal to cater to the newsmedia gets you labeled?

meh.

And in "real life" someone with three years of job experience in accounting would not be moved up to CEO of a company with basically no plans for the company, no experience in the company, and no qualifications for the job, just because they are charasmatic. Clearly politics are not "real life," (as you described it).

[Kelly]

Obama is the Tim Story of the election...he was doomed from the start, and fanboys were never going to like him regardless of what he did, and any small crack in his armor would be overanalyzed. Just hoping he doesn't go the route of FF.



Are you kidding?

That is a strange comparison......


1. Obama is loved by the media, SO MUCH SO, that SNL decided to make that the "hook" for their political parodies....
2. He has the biggest of the biggest stars of TV and movies as his cheerleaders....
jjXyqcx-mYY

CBk32JsV9l8


3. He has the backing of some of the biggest politicians in Washington today, along with most of the major newspapers around the country....



So exactly where is the comparison....OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH they are both black....ok. Got it.:cwink:

[Marx]

LOL I am not being apologetic at all. You're just reacting like a "typical white person." Stop being so typical.


:lmao:

And what exactly is a "typical white person" Lightning? :huh:

[BlackLantern]

Part of me wants Obama to go down in flames so all of his celebrity supporters feel stupid for backing the wrong horse

[Kelly]

Part of me wants Obama to go down in flames so all of his celebrity supporters feel stupid for backing the wrong horse


But what if he's the right horse....???????

Will that make you feel stupid???:cwink:

[BlackLantern]

No..I don't care either way ....he still isn't getting my vote

[Kelly]

No..I don't care either way ....he still isn't getting my vote


ok....

[Arkady Rossovich]

Obama is still the one to beat,and I don't think it can be done now.

[Marx]

Obama is still the one to beat,and I don't think it can be done now.

If it goes to the convention, which more than likely it will - Let's revisit that last comment Arkady. :cwink:

[souvlaki]

If it goes to the convention, which more than likely it will - Let's revisit that last comment Arkady. :cwink:

:whatever: Shine on, you crazy diamond. I really wish there was a way to put some money down on how this convention will turn out, because I'm starting to become convinced I could win quite a bit of money from you and Matt.

[Marx]

:whatever: Shine on, you crazy diamond. I really wish there was a way to put some money down on how this convention will turn out, because I'm starting to become convinced I could win quite a bit of money from you and Matt.

"Shine on, you crazy diamond?" I like that. :funny: All Matt and I are trying to say is don't count her out of this yet.

[The Senator]

:whatever: Shine on, you crazy diamond. I really wish there was a way to put some money down on how this convention will turn out, because I'm starting to become convinced I could win quite a bit of money from you and Matt.

I don't think they're saying she definitely will win at the convention... they're saying that this will probably go to the convention, where she'll have just as good a chance as Obama has at winning the nomination... it isn't over until all the delegates have cast their ballots, and every primary vote is counted...

[Zen]

:whatever: Shine on, you crazy diamond. I really wish there was a way to put some money down on how this convention will turn out, because I'm starting to become convinced I could win quite a bit of money from you and Matt.


i too believe it will be a cold day in hell before the delegates overturn the popular will of the people... especially when they know it will be reported, and re-reported in the media that they did exactly that... went against the will of the people

the problem i do have is getting in to any set path of a "coronation" like many were for hillary...

i think once Obama's team starts to get comfortable they will make mistakes... you know, like the crap he said in Pennsylvania, true or not... it was careless... it was not slick, it was fumbled. and if he keeps that up Hillary might poke a hole through his shiny vineer.

Obama is in for a long fight, i hope hes got the scrap to take it to the convention and still have strength for McCain...

because if he somehow comes out on top after all this... He will be validated in the public sphere as maybe no president has in a long time. it would be a good footing to have when trying to come across as a persuasive power in politics... so he can get some semblence of real change to happen.

...this is the hardest i've ever pulled for a candidate, he better pull hard right back. He better get clever and stay resiliant... and in the end, i hope he can deliver. i wont spite him if he doesnt... but i may never get as pumped as i am now about politics ever again. if he delivers, he may actually successfully create a real political movement... of alot of people finally getting involved.

[The Senator]

i too believe it will be a cold day in hell before the delegates overturn the popular will of the people... especially when they know it will be reported, and re-reported in the media that they did exactly that... went against the will of the people

The delegates will vote for the person who is best suited to lead the party... and at this stage, it's a choice between an out of touch and inexperienced hypocrite, or a compulsive liar who wreaks of desperation... so they might as well pick "none of the above" and find someone else to battle McCain...