The Obama Thread (Merged x6)

[Matt]

I love how you try to take the high road and "Agree to disagree" all while insulting someone's opinion.

[Darthphere]

How has Varient not been banned?

[StorminNorman]

I miss Jonty

[kainedamo]

Find a reason to hate Obama? You sound absurd. No, there's no problem with him hanging around with people who said 9/11 was a good thing or that he wishes he killed more people during his days as a domestic terrorist. No problem at all.

Did you even read the link I provided??

This Ayers guy, he was never convicted, AND he's a professor at a University.

Do you want anyone that makes contact with this man to be lambasted?

Ridiculous.

Is anyone that ever met up with Martin McGuinness a terrorist sympathiser??

[Varient]

I love how you try to take the high road and "Agree to disagree" all while insulting someone's opinion.

Fine lets go there.

Bring it and I will respond.

I don't want you thinking that my admitting that we probably won't agree on this no matter how much we type is a thinly veiled insult on you.

Your opinion in this case (If it is your opinion) baffles me.

because:
1. You appear to hold Obama accountable for the past behavior of someone who did wrong before he associated with him.

2. The person in Question associated with Obama on safe topics that were for positive change in their area,... not plans to do acts of terrorism.

3. You seem to be saying that "Once a (fill in the blank) always a (fill in the blank) - saying that people cannot change or make restitution for past actions. Ayers has not recently bombed anything.

Now here's your chance,... chop me up into lil pieces please.

V.

[Marx]

Looks like I've missed quite the back and forth today.

[Kelly]

Good speech in Berlin.


Alot of broad strokes, worldly philosophy, but the timing is perfect, and a setting sun behind him makes for a great photo op.

[Marx]

Good speech in Berlin.


Alot of broad strokes, worldly philosophy, but the timing is perfect, and a setting sun behind him makes for a great photo op.

He is good with photo ops. :cwink:

[Kelly]

He is good with photo ops. :cwink:


Hey it was damn good timing, it hit right at the 7:00 p.m. prime time hour in Europe, and it will dominate the news this evening here because the news will have the perfect amount of time to get the soundbites and video ready. DAMN GOOD TIMING. I would equal it to perfection.:word:

[kainedamo]

Are there any clips of this Obama speech?

[danoyse]

Find a reason to hate Obama? You sound absurd. No, there's no problem with him hanging around with people who said 9/11 was a good thing or that he wishes he killed more people during his days as a domestic terrorist. No problem at all.

Bush hung around with Jerry Falwell, who also believed we deserved 9/11. And he got re-elected.

[Marx]

Bush hung around with Jerry Falwell, who also believed we deserved 9/11. And he got re-elected.

We all know why Bush got re-elected...

[Lightning Strykez!]

To you and anyone trying to find a reason to hate Obama it's not a good thing. To everyone else it's just a rediculous argument.

Hello! :whatever:

I'm sorry Matt, but some of the "reasons" you guys are spouting for disliking Obama now are simply bordering on absurd. And that's not to say that Obama doesn't have flaws or issues to work on, but the ones you guys are harping on simply do not carry water.

[Marx]

Hello! :whatever:

I'm sorry Matt, but some of the "reasons" you guys are spouting for disliking Obama now are simply bordering on absurd. And that's not to say that Obama doesn't have flaws or issues to work on, but the ones you guys are harping on simply do not carry water.

Such as?

[Lightning Strykez!]

I love how you try to take the high road and "Agree to disagree" all while insulting someone's opinion.

Correct me if I missed something, but how did his post insult your opinion? :confused: He disagreed with you and stated concrete reasons for doing so.

Do you believe it really makes sense to marry Obama to a situation that is over by all accounts today? Seriously? I just feel like sometimes people are clutching for straws. Just like holding McCain's age against him is equally stupid and baseless. People need to stick to the real issues, not who visited who's house, digging in the memories of 8 year olds, and similar dumbness. :whatever:

How has Varient not been banned?

For the same reasons you haven't been. Quit yer instigating. :cool:

[Marx]

Poll: Sharp reversal for Obama with latino voters
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/24/poll-sharp-reversal-for-obama-with-latino-voters/

[Lightning Strykez!]

Such as?

No you did not just go there. :whatever:

Think for a moment about what your original motives were in asking me the above question. If you're honest with yourself, you'll likely figure out why I am not going to dignify it with a reply.

I'm not a fan of baiting. :nono:

[Marx]

No you did not just go there. :whatever:

Think for a moment about what your original motives were in asking me that question. Then, if you're honest with yourself, you'll likely figure out why I am not going to dignify it with a reply.

I'm not a fan of baiting. :nono:

Yeah, I did just go there Lightning. And no, I wasn't baiting you. I was genuinely asking you what you thought to be ridiculous.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Yeah, I did just go there Lightning. And no, I wasn't baiting you. I was genuinely asking you what you thought to be ridiculous.

Well, let's come back from there. Together. Because we are already discussing them now and I just posted some of my gripes. In addition, the portion you had bolded of my text suggested something else to me, so please excuse the boldness of my retort to you. It was all administered in forum-love. :cool:

[jaguarr]

Fight! Fight! Fight! :cmad:

jag

[Lightning Strykez!]

Fight! Fight! Fight! :cmad:

jag

I'm a lover, not a fighter. :o

However....


*stuffs garbage can in Jag's mouth*

[jaguarr]

I'm a lover, not a fighter. :o

However....


*stuffs garbage can in Jag's mouth*

You're like...the worst New Yorker, ever. Marx is from Ohio, for God's sake! OHIO!!!!! You should be able to take him! :disgusted:

jag

[kal-el2006]

Obama Speech in Berlin 200,000. in attendance

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2008-07-24-crowds.jpg

http://www.drudgereport.com/berlin1.jpg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/24/obama-in-berlin-video-of_n_114771.html

[Marx]

Well, let's come back from there. Together. Because we are already discussing them now and I just posted some of my gripes. In addition, the portion you had bolded of my text suggested something else to me, so please excuse the boldness of my retort to you. It was all administered in forum-love. :cool:

You're excused. :cwink:

[kainedamo]

Hahaha, what is he, running for President of Germany?

Why can't he come to Ireland :(

[Marx]

Hahaha, what is he, running for President of Germany?

Why can't he come to Ireland :(

Because there's no oil in Ireland.





(I kid, I kid. :hehe:)

[Superman]

You're like...the worst New Yorker, ever. Marx is from Ohio, for God's sake! OHIO!!!!! You should be able to take him! :disgusted:

jagHEY!!!! I'M FROM OHIO.:cmad:

Come on Marx, We'll take them both.:cmad:

[Sandman138]

We all know why Bush got re-elected...

To stop the gays from causing 9/11?:huh:

[Marx]

You're like...the worst New Yorker, ever. Marx is from Ohio, for God's sake! OHIO!!!!! You should be able to take him! :disgusted:

jag

HEY!!!! I'M FROM OHIO.:cmad:

Come on Marx, We'll take em both! :mad:

Don't underestimate the Ohioans! :cwink:

[jaguarr]

HEY!!!! I'M FROM OHIO.:cmad:

Then stay out of New York or you'll get your ass whipped (unless you're fighting Lightning Strykez, apparently). :hehe:

jag

[Superman]

Then stay out of New York or you'll get your ass whipped (unless you're fighting Lightning Strykez, apparently). :hehe:

jagYou've never been to Dayton, Have you? We can stand with the best of them.:cmad:

[Kelly]

I'm from Texas, I'll kick all of your asses.

And jag, don't even try to change it to "kiss". Been there done that, it was pleasant.

[Marx]

You've never been to Dayton, Have you? We can stand with the best of them.:cmad:

Or Cleveland, or Cincinnati...

[jaguarr]

You've never been to Dayton, Have you? We can stand with the best of them.:cmad:

Alright, alright. Settle down, Princess. Don't get all pissy on us. :oldrazz:

I'm from Texas, I'll kick all of your asses.

And jag, don't even try to change it to "kiss". Been there done that, it was pleasant.

It's a special memory for me, as well, Kel. :heart:

:hehe:

jag

[Kelly]

LMAO.........I hate you.......lol

[jaguarr]

:funny:

jag

[Superman]

Alright, alright. Settle down, Princess. Don't get all pissy on us. :oldrazz:

jagPrincess!!??

Alright, That does it, Put'em up.http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/edoom/boxing_smiley.gif







:hehe::oldrazz::hehe:

[jaguarr]

Princess!!??

Alright, That does it, Put'em up.http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/edoom/boxing_smiley.gif







:hehe::oldrazz::hehe:

I'm sorry, but I was taught never to hit a woman. :lmao:

:D


:oldrazz:

jag

[Tag279]

Yea, but Claire never stops crying and I've been awake for basically two days so leave me alone :csad:

Colic is the worst condition in the history of medicine :csad:

Matt if I may let me offer you some help I have three sons 11, 5, and 3. And As most of you know I have a little girl on the way. Here are some things that may help Baby Claire sleep better.

1) Try a different formula if you are using formula. Sometimes soy-based formulas go down better.

2) Make sure the formula you give the baby is warm it goes down better when it's warm.

3) Whe the baby is being fed try to hold the baby at an angle where her kneck is in a natural position chin chest often times causes baby to take in more air.

4) use silicon nipples they are better and they do not bind like rubber nipples.

5) Cholic comes from gas a lot of the time rub baby's stomach softly when that burp does not gome out just right.

Matt I don't know what applies to your situation but I hope it helps a bit.

[Kelly]

Has this been posted? I might have missed it.

I don't know the specific details of this documentary, when its coming out, etc. It's been put together by the group "Citizens United".

But here is the trailer...........

The Hype (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2M8nX0_bp4)


The website is being updated, but I found the trailer on youtube.

[Tag279]

Has this been posted? I might have missed it.

I don't know the specific details of this documentary, when its coming out, etc. It's been put together by the group "Citizens United".

But here is the trailer...........

The Hype (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2M8nX0_bp4)


The website is being updated, but I found the trailer on youtube.

You have got to be kidding me damn how deep does the hate run?

Conservatives are something else :whatever:

[Kelly]

LMAO, well you have to admit, he does have quite a bit of hype surrounding him.

You still ask anyone on the street who they are voting for, they may say Obama, you ask them what he has done in the senate, etc, few could probably tell you. So, you do have to attribute some (if not quite a bit) of it as hype.

I'll watch the documentary and then make my assessment of it.

[Superman]

Has this been posted? I might have missed it.

I don't know the specific details of this documentary, when its coming out, etc. It's been put together by the group "Citizens United".

But here is the trailer...........

The Hype (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2M8nX0_bp4)


The website is being updated, but I found the trailer on youtube.:lmao: This movie was made for Matt.

Man! Obama must have the Right scared to death if they are trying to push this rediculous crap. :hehe:

[Kelly]

Prove that its ridiculous. I'm not trying to start a fight, I truly would like to see someone actually watch the documentary, and prove that its wrong.

Are we wearing blinders that close us off to all things?

I'm open to information on both candidates....bring it all on. Prove that its wrong. Take just the trailer, and give sources that prove what they say is wrong, I am more than willing to read any and all that is given.

And I'm being serious, bring on the sources. Let's prove it wrong right here. Instead of wearing blinders and saying its all bunk. Let's take it piece by piece and prove it wrong.

[Marx]

Has this been posted? I might have missed it.

I don't know the specific details of this documentary, when its coming out, etc. It's been put together by the group "Citizens United".

But here is the trailer...........

The Hype (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2M8nX0_bp4)


The website is being updated, but I found the trailer on youtube.

That sounds like a very interesting movie. Although, I am curious to know if it has a September-early November release date.

[Kelly]

Well it should definitely stir some rousing debate. lmao

[Marx]

Well it should definitely stir some rousing debate. lmao

That's putting it quite mildly Kel.

[Kelly]

Hey it was getting quiet around here, I had to do something for entertainment......I don't go back to work until August 10th.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I see certain Ohio Folks were talking smack AFTER I left. Figures. :rolleyes:

The only user that miiiiight give me a run for my money on these boards is Superman--and I can readily admit that. But Jag and Marx? Phssssssh. :o

And I don't hit women, so...next.

[Crowforge]

LMAO, well you have to admit, he does have quite a bit of hype surrounding him.

You still ask anyone on the street who they are voting for, they may say Obama, you ask them what he has done in the senate, etc, few could probably tell you. So, you do have to attribute some (if not quite a bit) of it as hype.

I'll watch the documentary and then make my assessment of it.
You could say the same about Mccain. I must admit only one thing comes to mind at the moment and that's that he opposed the Martin Luther King Jr. Holiday so he can shove it where the sun don't shine!

[jaguarr]

I see certain Ohio Folks were talking smack AFTER I left. Figures. :rolleyes:

The only user that miiiiight give me a run for my money on these boards is Superman--and I can readily admit that. But Jag and Marx? Phssssssh. :o

And I don't hit women, so...next.

You go, girl! Three snaps and a Mars Bar! Whoooooo! :up:

jag

[Lightning Strykez!]

You go, girl! Three snaps and a Mars Bar! Whoooooo! :up:

jag

*sigh*

You are such a pussy-willow. :whatever:

[jaguarr]

*sigh*

You are such a pussy-willow. :whatever:

:heart:

jag

[Marx]

Hey it was getting quiet around here, I had to do something for entertainment......I don't go back to work until August 10th.

All too true.

I see certain Ohio Folks were talking smack AFTER I left. Figures. :rolleyes:

The only user that miiiiight give me a run for my money on these boards is Superman--and I can readily admit that. But Jag and Marx? Phssssssh. :o

And I don't hit women, so...next.

Don't go laying the blame at MY doorstep...not when YOU left in the middle of a fight! :oldrazz:

[Tag279]

Prove that its ridiculous. I'm not trying to start a fight, I truly would like to see someone actually watch the documentary, and prove that its wrong.

Are we wearing blinders that close us off to all things?

I'm open to information on both candidates....bring it all on. Prove that its wrong. Take just the trailer, and give sources that prove what they say is wrong, I am more than willing to read any and all that is given.

And I'm being serious, bring on the sources. Let's prove it wrong right here. Instead of wearing blinders and saying its all bunk. Let's take it piece by piece and prove it wrong.

First off a documentary if it is done properly is objecticve an unbiased look at a given topic.

One of the repeating themes of this video appears to be that Obama is a radical left winger.

If Obama is a left-wing radical then how could he possibly work with a republican to get things done?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/52/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/568/

Left-wingers don't belive in cutting taxes.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/540/

Left-wingers don't want to reform welfare.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/538/

Another assertion made by the trailer is that Obama has no experience and no record.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/390/

Obama has not flip flopped on abortion rights as another comercial from a 527 asserts he has a 100% rating on pro-choice.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/338/

Obama has some accommplishments Obama “won health care for 150,000 people.”
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/87/

[Kelly]

Can you find some things that are from his time in National Government.

From what I hear one of the big problems some have is that they see him as being from the Chicago government machine, that moves possible presidential candidates into the national spotlight. Are there some examples of the above at the National level?

[Kelly]

You could say the same about Mccain. I must admit only one thing comes to mind at the moment and that's that he opposed the Martin Luther King Jr. Holiday so he can shove it where the sun don't shine!

Wow, intelligent response....:whatever:


Now to Tag....

First off a documentary if it is done properly is objecticve an unbiased look at a given topic.

One of the repeating themes of this video appears to be that Obama is a radical left winger.

If Obama is a left-wing radical then how could he possibly work with a republican to get things done?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/52/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/568/

Left-wingers don't belive in cutting taxes.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/540/

Left-wingers don't want to reform welfare.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/538/

Another assertion made by the trailer is that Obama has no experience and no record.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/390/

Obama has not flip flopped on abortion rights as another comercial from a 527 asserts he has a 100% rating on pro-choice.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/338/

Obama has some accommplishments Obama “won health care for 150,000 people.”
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/87/


That's a great start, but you really need more than one source to really prove a point in a strong way.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/14582.html


Also, are there examples from his national government experience???

[StorminNorman]

July 25, 2008
He ventured forth to bring light to the world

The anointed one's pilgrimage to the Holy Land is a miracle in action - and a blessing to all his faithful followers

Gerard Baker

And it came to pass, in the eighth year of the reign of the evil Bush the Younger (The Ignorant), when the whole land from the Arabian desert to the shores of the Great Lakes had been laid barren, that a Child appeared in the wilderness.
The Child was blessed in looks and intellect. Scion of a simple family, offspring of a miraculous union, grandson of a typical white person and an African peasant. And yea, as he grew, the Child walked in the path of righteousness, with only the occasional detour into the odd weed and a little blow.

When he was twelve years old, they found him in the temple in the City of Chicago, arguing the finer points of community organisation with the Prophet Jeremiah and the Elders. And the Elders were astonished at what they heard and said among themselves: “Verily, who is this Child that he opens our hearts and minds to the audacity of hope?”

In the great Battles of Caucus and Primary he smote the conniving Hillary, wife of the deposed King Bill the Priapic and their barbarian hordes of Working Class Whites.

And so it was, in the fullness of time, before the harvest month of the appointed year, the Child ventured forth - for the first time - to bring the light unto all the world.

He travelled fleet of foot and light of camel, with a small retinue that consisted only of his loyal disciples from the tribe of the Media. He ventured first to the land of the Hindu Kush, where the

Taleban had harboured the viper of al-Qaeda in their bosom, raining terror on all the world.

And the Child spake and the tribes of Nato immediately loosed the Caveats that had previously bound them. And in the great battle that ensued the forces of the light were triumphant. For as long as the Child stood with his arms raised aloft, the enemy suffered great blows and the threat of terror was no more.

From there he went forth to Mesopotamia where he was received by the great ruler al-Maliki, and al-Maliki spake unto him and blessed his Sixteen Month Troop Withdrawal Plan even as the imperial warrior Petraeus tried to destroy it.

And lo, in Mesopotamia, a miracle occurred. Even though the Great Surge of Armour that the evil Bush had ordered had been a terrible mistake, a waste of vital military resources and doomed to end in disaster, the Child's very presence suddenly brought forth a great victory for the forces of the light.

And the Persians, who saw all this and were greatly fearful, longed to speak with the Child and saw that the Child was the bringer of peace. At the mention of his name they quickly laid aside their intrigues and beat their uranium swords into civil nuclear energy ploughshares.

From there the Child went up to the city of Jerusalem, and entered through the gate seated on an ass. The crowds of network anchors who had followed him from afar cheered “Hosanna” and waved great palm fronds and strewed them at his feet.

In Jerusalem and in surrounding Palestine, the Child spake to the Hebrews and the Arabs, as the Scripture had foretold. And in an instant, the lion lay down with the lamb, and the Israelites and Ishmaelites ended their long enmity and lived for ever after in peace.

As word spread throughout the land about the Child's wondrous works, peoples from all over flocked to hear him; Hittites and Abbasids; Obamacons and McCainiacs; Cameroonians and Blairites.

And they told of strange and wondrous things that greeted the news of the Child's journey. Around the world, global temperatures began to decline, and the ocean levels fell and the great warming was over.

The Great Prophet Algore of Nobel and Oscar, who many had believed was the anointed one, smiled and told his followers that the Child was the one generations had been waiting for.

And there were other wonderful signs. In the city of the Street at the Wall, spreads on interbank interest rates dropped like manna from Heaven and rates on credit default swaps fell to the ground as dead birds from the almond tree, and the people who had lived in foreclosure were able to borrow again.

Black gold gushed from the ground at prices well below $140 per barrel. In hospitals across the land the sick were cured even though they were uninsured. And all because the Child had pronounced it.

And this is the testimony of one who speaks the truth and bears witness to the truth so that you might believe. And he knows it is the truth for he saw it all on CNN and the BBC and in the pages of The New York Times.
Then the Child ventured forth from Israel and Palestine and stepped onto the shores of the Old Continent. In the land of Queen Angela of Merkel, vast multitudes gathered to hear his voice, and he preached to them at length.

But when he had finished speaking his disciples told him the crowd was hungry, for they had had nothing to eat all the hours they had waited for him.

And so the Child told his disciples to fetch some food but all they had was five loaves and a couple of frankfurters. So he took the bread and the frankfurters and blessed them and told his disciples to feed the multitudes. And when all had eaten their fill, the scraps filled twelve baskets.

Thence he travelled west to Mount Sarkozy. Even the beauteous Princess Carla of the tribe of the Bruni was struck by awe and she was great in love with the Child, but he was tempted not.

On the Seventh Day he walked across the Channel of the Angles to the ancient land of the hooligans. There he was welcomed with open arms by the once great prophet Blair and his successor, Gordon the Leper, and his successor, David the Golden One.

And suddenly, with the men appeared the archangel Gabriel and the whole host of the heavenly choir, ranks of cherubim and seraphim, all praising God and singing: “Yes, We Can.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article4392846.ece

[Marx]

Obama wins hearts, not minds, in Berlin
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/25/obama.review/index.html

[Kelly]

Yeah, the only 2 places he got major applause in his speech was when he mentioned, getting out of Iraq and global warming. Not really surprising. Funny it was kinda quiet when he said the world needed to help more in Afghanistan.

[Marx]

Yeah, the only 2 places he got major applause in his speech was when he mentioned, getting out of Iraq and global warming. Not really surprising. Funny it was kinda quiet when he said the world needed to help more in Afghanistan.

To me, it just goes to show that he does have appeal through speeches, but when it gets down to what is he going to do to back up all of these wonderful words, his argument isn't all that convincing.

[Perdition]

I'm voting white.

[Marx]

Israeli paper publishes Obama's Western Wall prayer
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/25/israeli-paper-publishes-obama-western-wall-prayer/





(Talk about an invasion of privacy. These prayers are meant to be kept secret, not braodcast to the entire world to gain ratings or sell papers! This is truly a shame.)

[Marx]

I'm voting white.

With comments like that, I predict that you probably won't have a very long HYPE life.

[jaguarr]

I'm voting white.

Obama's half white, so you're voting for him, then. Good for you! :up:

Israeli paper publishes Obama's Western Wall prayer
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/25/israeli-paper-publishes-obama-western-wall-prayer/





(Talk about an invasion of privacy. These prayers are meant to be kept secret, not braodcast to the entire world to gain ratings or sell papers! This is truly a shame.)

Wow. Strong douchery from that newspaper. :down

jag

[Varient]

meh.
"Water is Wet"
This reminds me of the old debate on why Cuba and Japan are "really" not a part of the United States,...

I'll just say:

If a middle Eastern Presidential canidate came to America and part of what he talked to us about were serious thoughts on giving us the best oil Prices in the world,....

Our women would be throwing their drawls onto the stage and everybody who drove a big car would be cheering,....

folk need to get a clue.

V.

[Varient]

I'm voting white.

(chuckle)

I wonder which "sybil" you are?

[Crowforge]

Wow, intelligent response....:whatever:


Now to Tag....




That's a great start, but you really need more than one source to really prove a point in a strong way.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/14582.html


Also, are there examples from his national government experience???
There's nothing unintelligent about my post. Where was all this concern about experience when people voted bush into office twice?

[StorminNorman]

There's nothing unintelligent about my post. Where was all this concern about experience when people voted bush into office twice?

How about the phraise "he can cram it where the sun don't shine" - yes, that was simply scholarly. It doesn't at all reek of immaturity and stupidity.

Also - Bush had experience. He was twice elected governor (an executive position) of the largest state in the lower 48 and had a large, impressive record of bipartisan ship in said seat.

Nice try there.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Well, I guess Obama is putting down the hammer (finally) on McCain this week, for saying that his visit overseas was premature.

Obama was asked about criticism by the campaign of his Republican rival, Sen. John McCain, that the Berlin speech was a "premature victory lap."

"I'll leave it up to the pundits to theorize on that," Obama responded. "I would point out that John McCain, after he won the nomination, met with all the leaders that I am meeting with, that he has made speeches in Colombia and Canada and Mexico. ...

"I would be hard pressed to find a big difference between what I've done over the last week and what John McCain has been doing since he won the nomination."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/25/obama.interview/index.html


I'm sorry, but he's making absolute freaking sense here, and I hope folks like StorminNormin, Matt, and others can see the clear line of reasoning here. You guys have been mocking what is done all the time by polititians--the difference is, that Obama simply got more attention.

Sometimes, when I hear the McCain campaign griping about the media attention Obama is recieving, it sounds like total jealousy. I'm sure they wouldn't be complaining if the roles were reversed and they were benefiting from the spotlight so much. :rolleyes:

[Crowforge]

How about the phraise "he can cram it where the sun don't shine" - yes, that was simply scholarly. It doesn't at all reek of immaturity and stupidity.

Also - Bush had experience. He was twice elected governor (an executive position) of the largest state in the lower 48 and had a large, impressive record of bipartisan ship in said seat.

Nice try there.So tell me a more intelligent way to say he can cram it the wrong way?

[Varient]

....

[Matt]

Well, I guess Obama is putting down the hammer (finally) on McCain this week, for saying that his visit overseas was premature.



I'm sorry, but he's making absolute freaking sense here, and I hope folks like StorminNormin, Matt, and others can see the clear line of reasoning here. You guys have been mocking what is done all the time by polititians--the difference is, that Obama simply got more attention.

Sometimes, when I hear the McCain campaign griping about the media attention Obama is recieving, it sounds like total jealousy. I'm sure they wouldn't be complaining if the roles were reversed and they were benefiting from the spotlight so much. :rolleyes:

I don't have a problem with his European tour. I think it is foolish campaign strategy, after all, Europeans can't exactly vote for the American President. Obama spending 2 weeks overseas is bit foolish, especially with McCain closing the gap. It is just as foolish as McCain wasting his multiple month head start the way he did. At the very least, instead of wasting time overseas grandstanding, both could actually...y'know, do their jobs in the Senate.

[Matt]

I'm voting white.

Buh bye.

[Crowforge]

It did silence a few of mccains talking points. He's been to Iraq (recently) and Afghanistan now.

[Matt]

So tell me a more intelligent way to say he can cram it the wrong way?

How 'bout not at all. Read the announcement at the top of the forum Crowforge. If I see that kind of maturity level from you again, you will go the route of the late Perdition.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I don't have a problem with his European tour. I think it is foolish campaign strategy, after all, Europeans can't exactly vote for the American President. Obama spending 2 weeks overseas is bit foolish, especially with McCain closing the gap. It is just as foolish as McCain wasting his multiple month head start the way he did. At the very least, instead of wasting time overseas grandstanding, both could actually...y'know, do their jobs in the Senate.

Why is it foolish? This is par for the course for candidates in every election. I'm trying to figure out why when OBAMA does it, suddenly the meaning changes to dumbness in the minds of some people? :dry:

First Obama is damned for fleshing out his Iraq withdrawal strategy before visiting the grounds, and now he's damned for going to the grounds? I don't get it. Enlighten me please.

[Matt]

It did silence a few of mccains talking points. He's been to Iraq (recently) and Afghanistan now.

Not really. It is a stupid criticism to begin with. "You haven't been abroad enough!" What a load.

If Obama or McCain does not have foreign policy experience, making a few trips to make speeches and take photo ops with foreign leaders is not going to give him the level of experience needed to lead the free world.

[Crowforge]

How 'bout not at all. Read the announcement at the top of the forum Crowforge. If I see that kind of maturity level from you again, you will go the route of the late Perdition.
I'll do us both a favor and just leave.

[jaguarr]

So tell me a more intelligent way to say he can cram it the wrong way?

You have to say it like Ben Stiller's character from Dodgeball:

"Cram it up your cramhole, La Fleur!"

:up:

:D

jag

[Lightning Strykez!]

It did silence a few of mccains talking points. He's been to Iraq (recently) and Afghanistan now.

That's my point. I don't understand why McCain & Co. are badmouthing Obama for being in presidential candidate status while visiting foreign leaders, when McCain JUST DID THE SAME THING as a presidential candidate a few weeks ago?

Hypocrisy like this will come back to bite McCain in his butt, mark my words. People--especially independents--don't take too well to that kind of talk.

[Matt]

Why is it foolish? This is par for the course for candidates in every election. I'm trying to figure out why when OBAMA does it, suddenly the meaning changes to dumbness in the minds of some people? :dry:

First Obama is damned for fleshing out his Iraq withdrawal strategy before visiting the grounds, and now he's damned for going to the grounds? I don't get it. Enlighten me please.

I'm saying it is stupid strategy for any campaign. Not just Obama. Furthermore, it pisses me off as a US Citizen that they (both McCain and Obama) are traveling on our dime as Senators, and being paid a salary, and not doing their jobs in the least while spending the better part of two years campaigning. That angers me.

[Crowforge]

You have to say it like Ben Stiller's character from Dodgeball:

"Cram it up your cramhole, La Fleur!"

:up:

:D

jag
If only I'd known random french was ban-guard.

[jaguarr]

I'm saying it is stupid strategy for any campaign. Not just Obama. Furthermore, it pisses me off as a US Citizen that they (both McCain and Obama) are traveling on our dime as Senators, and being paid a salary, and not doing their jobs in the least while spending the better part of two years campaigning. That angers me.

You really, really reminded me of Marvin the Martian just then.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/ATA/21501BP~Marvin-The-Martian-Posters.jpg

jag

[Lightning Strykez!]

I'm saying it is stupid strategy for any campaign. Not just Obama. Furthermore, it pisses me off as a US Citizen that they (both McCain and Obama) are traveling on our dime as Senators, and being paid a salary, and not doing their jobs in the least while spending the better part of two years campaigning. That angers me.

My god, you're such a bitter Pennsylvanian. :heart:

;)

[jaguarr]

If only I'd known random french was ban-guard.

La Fleur is one of the characters in the film. ;)

jag

[Matt]

You really, really reminded me of Marvin the Martian just then.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/ATA/21501BP~Marvin-The-Martian-Posters.jpg

jag

My god, you're such a bitter Pennsylvanian. :heart:

;)

So you guys are fine with the system as is? If you owned a business, would you be okay with one of your employees never showing up because they are interviewing for other jobs, but they still expect you to pay them?

[Superman]

Prove that its ridiculous. I'm not trying to start a fight, I truly would like to see someone actually watch the documentary, and prove that its wrong.

Are we wearing blinders that close us off to all things?

I'm open to information on both candidates....bring it all on. Prove that its wrong. Take just the trailer, and give sources that prove what they say is wrong, I am more than willing to read any and all that is given.

And I'm being serious, bring on the sources. Let's prove it wrong right here. Instead of wearing blinders and saying its all bunk. Let's take it piece by piece and prove it wrong.
I know you want to watch it and that's fine... For you, But for me the very fact that it has Dick Morris, Bob Novak, Mike Huckabee and John Bolton among others. Some of the most biased Right Wingers out there telling us how bad they think Obama is. That disqualifies it as a serious documentary.

You can watch it if you want, More power to you, but I've had enough of the Right Wing lies plus I've got better things to do with my time.

Like watching paint dry. :cwink::woot::woot:

[Lightning Strykez!]

So you guys are fine with the system as is? If you owned a business, would you be okay with one of your employees never showing up because they are interviewing for other jobs, but they still expect you to pay them?

*sigh*

For some reason I am suddenly very sleepy now. Very sleepy. Too sleepy to even type now. :)

[jaguarr]

So you guys are fine with the system as is? If you owned a business, would you be okay with one of your employees never showing up because they are interviewing for other jobs, but they still expect you to pay them?

American politics don't operate anywhere near something resembling a normal business model or practices, and never have, so comparing it as such really doesn't work. I'm not saying that it's not screwed up, because it is. Is it in need of reform? Absolutely. Will that every happen. Unlikely.

jag

[Matt]

and it all comes back to holding Obama to the higher standard image that he made for himself. If Obama resigned from the Senate...I'd vote for him, because it would mean there is substance behind all his pretty buzz words.Right now, all I see is a typical politician.

[Lightning Strykez!]

:lmao:

"Matt The Martian.

[Lightning Strykez!]

and it all comes back to holding Obama to the higher standard image that he made for himself. If Obama resigned from the Senate...I'd vote for him, because it would mean there is substance behind all his pretty buzz words.Right now, all I see is a typical politician.

Well I guess you're sitting home then in November? Because both candidates are Senators Matt.

[Matt]

Please, I'm voting Nader (probably not, but one of the third party candidates).

[Kelly]

I know you want to watch it and that's fine... For you, But for me the very fact that it has Dick Morris, Bob Novak, Mike Huckabee and John Bolton among others. Some of the most biased Right Wingers out there telling us how bad they think Obama is. That disqualifies it as a serious documentary.

You can watch it if you want, More power to you, but I've had enough of the Right Wing lies plus I've got better things to do with my time.

Like watching paint dry. :cwink::woot::woot:

Sure I'll watch it, why not? I watch all the news outlets, I listen to both sides and all of their surrogates, I watch the 3rd party candidates when they get media time. I watch all the debates, so yeah, I'll watch it.

[Superman]

Sure I'll watch it, why not? I watch all the news outlets, I listen to both sides and all of their surrogates, I watch the 3rd party candidates when they get media time. I watch all the debates, so yeah, I'll watch it.Cool. :up:

[Tag279]

Sure I'll watch it, why not? I watch all the news outlets, I listen to both sides and all of their surrogates, I watch the 3rd party candidates when they get media time. I watch all the debates, so yeah, I'll watch it.

You can watch it but I hope that you see that this so-called documentary is nowhere close to objective. It's not about being informative it's about bashing Obama.

Here is some info on Obama's Voting record
http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Barack_Obama.htm

Affirmative Action

Apply affirmative action to poor white college applicants. (Apr 2008)
Fight job discrimination to give women equal footing at jobs. (Feb 2008) Remove discriminatory barriers to the right to vote. (Feb 2008)
Benefited from affirmative action but overcame via merit. (Dec 2007)
Include class-based affirmative action with race-based. (Oct 2007)
Better enforce women's pay equity via Equal Pay Act. (Aug 2007) Blacks should infiltrate mainstream to affect change. (Aug 2007)
African-Americans vote Democratic because of issue stances. (Jul 2004)
Supports affirmative action in colleges and government. (Jul 1998)

Voting Record Education:

First Senate bill: increase Pell Grant from $4,050 to $5,100. (Aug 2007) Sponsored legislations that recruit and reward good teachers. (Sep 2004) Voted YES on $52M for "21st century community learning centers". (Oct 2005)
Voted YES on $5B for grants to local educational agencies. (Oct 2005) Voted YES on shifting $11B from corporate tax loopholes to education. (Mar 2005)
Voting Record Energy & Oil

Passed tax credit for installing E85 ethanol at gas stations. (Feb 2008)
Voted YES on removing oil & gas exploration subsidies. (Jun 2007)
Voted YES on making oil-producing and exporting cartels illegal. (Jun 2007) Voted YES on factoring global warming into federal project planning. (May 2007)
Voted YES on disallowing an oil leasing program in Alaska's ANWR. (Nov 2005)
Voted YES on $3.1B for emergency oil assistance for hurricane-hit areas. (Oct 2005) Voted YES on reducing oil usage by 40% by 2025 (instead of 5%). (Jun 2005)
Voted YES on banning drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. (Mar 2005)
Sponsored bill for tax credit for providing 85% ethanol gas. (Apr 2005)
Sponsored bill to notify public when nuclear releases occur. (Mar 2006)
Sponsored bill raising CAFE by a 4% per year until 2018. (Jul 2006)
Rated 100% by the CAF, indicating support for energy independence. (Dec 2006)
Designate sensitive ANWR area as protected wilderness. (Nov 2007)
Set goal of 25% renewable energy by 2025. (Jan 2007)

Voting Record Government Reform:

FactCheck: Yes, Obama cast 130 "present" votes in IL Senate. (Jan 2008)
Voted YES on granting the District of Columbia a seat in Congress. (Sep 2007)
Voted NO on allowing some lobbyist gifts to Congress. (Mar 2006)
Voted YES on establishing the Senate Office of Public Integrity. (Mar 2006)
Election reform is #1 priority to prevent disenfranchisement. (Jan 2001)
Sponsored bill criminalizing deceptive info about elections. (Nov 2005)
Sponsored resolution rejecting photo ID for voting. (Sep 2005)
Sponsored bill to post earmarks on the Internet. (Jan 2006)
Prohibit voter intimidation in federal elections. (Mar 2007)
Prohibit 'voter caging' which intimidates minority voting. (Nov 2007)

Voting Record Healthcare

No need to mandate coverage; just let people afford it. (Jul 2007)
Voted NO on means-testing to determine Medicare Part D premium. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on requiring negotiated Rx prices for Medicare part D. (Apr 2007)
Voted YES on expanding enrollment period for Medicare Part D. (Feb 2006)
Voted YES on increasing Medicaid rebate for producing generics. (Nov 2005)
Voted YES on negotiating bulk purchases for Medicare prescription drug. (Mar 2005)
Increase funding for AIDS treatment & prevention. (Jan 2001)
More funding for Rx benefits, community health, CHIPs. (Jan 2001)
Improve services for people with autism & their families. (Apr 2007)

Voting Record Homeland Security:

Support veterans via the Dignity for Wounded Warriors Act. (Aug 2007)
Voted NO on removing need for FISA warrant for wiretapping abroad. (Aug 2007)
Voted YES on limiting soldiers' deployment to 12 months. (Jul 2007)
Voted YES on implementing the 9/11 Commission report. (Mar 2007)
Voted YES on preserving habeas corpus for Guantanamo detainees. (Sep 2006)
Voted YES on requiring CIA reports on detainees & interrogation methods. (Sep 2006)
Voted YES on reauthorizing the PATRIOT Act. (Mar 2006)
Voted NO on extending the PATRIOT Act's wiretap provision. (Dec 2005)
Voted YES on restricting business with entities linked to terrorism. (Jul 2005)
Voted YES on restoring $565M for states' and ports' first responders. (Mar 2005)
Sponsored bill for Iraq budget to be part of defense budget. (Jun 2006)
Restore habeas corpus for detainees in the War on Terror. (Jun 2007)

Voting Record Values:

Biggest mistake was intruding in Terri Schiavo case. (Apr 2007)
Voted NO on confirming Samuel Alito as Supreme Court Justice. (Jan 2006)
Voted NO on confirming John Roberts for Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. (Sep 2005)
Member of Congressional Black Caucus. (Jan 2001)
Reject Bush's Florida electors due to election fraud. (Jan 2001)
Rated 100% by the AU, indicating support of church-state separation. (Dec 2006)

[BlackestNight]

Please, I'm voting Nader (probably not, but one of the third party candidates).

:whatever: If your going to throw your vote away go Libertarian.

[Kelly]

Tag, I think I'm intelligent enough to know what is subjective and what is objective, and I'll make that call on my own when I watch the documentary.

[Marx]

Geez...I'm gone for a couple of hours and come back to find some getting into arguments, others getting banned, and Matt's a martian? :huh:





(I'm so confused! :hehe:)

[Tag279]

Tag, I think I'm intelligent enough to know what is subjective and what is objective, and I'll make that call on my own when I watch the documentary.

First off I did not call you un-intelligent. I may have chosen my words poorly but no ill will was intended. If I offended you I apologize.

My only point was, simply that, the video appeared to be very hostile and intensely biased against non conservative ideology. Especilly based on the people that were shown in the trailer.

[Mr Sparkle]

and it all comes back to holding Obama to the higher standard image that he made for himself. If Obama resigned from the Senate...I'd vote for him, because it would mean there is substance behind all his pretty buzz words.Right now, all I see is a typical politician.

Because someone running for the offoce of the President of the United States of America should be held to lower standards unless he claims otherwise:huh:

BTW, don't they all by definition claim to be better than each other? aren't they all acting as if they are a higher standard of politician? I don't think anyone has run on the "I'm just like that other guy" platform.

[Matt]

I've answered that in the past, but I'll answer again. The problem isn't that Obama claimed to be just above McCain. He claimed to be above the whole damn system.

[Excel]

Watching McCain is like watching grass grow; its hard to stay interested. Im sorry, but it's true. I like him much more when I am reading what he says rather than watching him.

Geez...I'm gone for a couple of hours and come back to find some getting into arguments, others getting banned, and Matt's a martian? :huh:





(I'm so confused! :hehe:)

Whose been banned :huh:

[Excel]

it sounds like total jealousy. :rolleyes:

Thats exactly what it is. What is McCain and his camp supposed to do? They re down in every poll and getting demolished in electoral college polls; Obama's getting a lot more press and the press he gets is a lot more positive than what McCain gets.

I dunno what anybody expected to happen when it became clear Obama would be the nominee. The only Republican possible of challenging him for attention was Schwarzenegger and he cant run.

[Kelly]

First off I did not call you un-intelligent. I may have chosen my words poorly but no ill will was intended. If I offended you I apologize.

My only point was, simply that, the video appeared to be very hostile and intensely biased against non conservative ideology. Especilly based on the people that were shown in the trailer.



No...... Tag, don't take my post as that. I'm not offended at all. I should apologize, I forget that we cannot hear tone and see faces. I didn't mean my post in that manner at all. :yay: It's all good.

I'm just very adament about allowing people to see all the information, information from all venues, information you provide that you feel refutes what you have seen, etc., and then allow people to form their own opinion.

[chamber-music]

He held an hour of discussions with the Conservative leader, David Cameron (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/davidcameron), at the House of Commons and met the shadow foreign secretary, William Hague, and the shadow chancellor, George Osborne.
Obama departed with gifts including a box of CDs by some of Cameron's favourite British musicians, among them The Smiths, Radiohead, Gorillaz and Lily Allen, and a copy of Hague's recent biography of the anti-slavery campaigner, William Wilberforce.

:funny:
Why do people keep promoting Lilly 'Bloody' Allen and I don't think Obama will listen to any of those CDs

[Tag279]

This is rediculous I wonder how the McCain camp is going to use this against Obama? :whatever:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080725/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_obama_s_note

[Marx]

Watching McCain is like watching grass grow; its hard to stay interested. Im sorry, but it's true. I like him much more when I am reading what he says rather than watching him.



Whose been banned :huh:

I newbie who joined this month. I don't believe it was anyone that very many of us came into contact with.

[Kelly]

Yeah, he made some racial comments, I doubted he would last long. He had under 100 posts....I think he came with the Batman bunch.

[StorminNorman]

I know you want to watch it and that's fine... For you, But for me the very fact that it has Dick Morris, Bob Novak, Mike Huckabee and John Bolton among others. Some of the most biased Right Wingers out there telling us how bad they think Obama is. That disqualifies it as a serious documentary.

You can watch it if you want, More power to you, but I've had enough of the Right Wing lies plus I've got better things to do with my time.

Like watching paint dry. :cwink::woot::woot:

John Bolton is an experienced statements with a great pedigree in international relations - his opinion actually has some validity in evaluating a candidate and his preparation for dealing with the world wide stage. The others? Not so much. Especially Morris, who is an incompetent buffoon.

[Kelly]

Many don't like Dick Morris, but he has been a part of the underbelly of Washington, and much of what he has said has come to pass.

I don't personally like the guy, but he knows the Democratic party as well as anyone, especially the dirty side of the Democratic party. I wouldn't write off everything he says, BUT I would stake my life on it either....lol

[Superman]

Many don't like Dick Morris, but he has been a part of the underbelly of Washington, and much of what he has said has come to pass.

I don't personally like the guy, but he knows the Democratic party as well as anyone, especially the dirty side of the Democratic party. I wouldn't write off everything he says, BUT I would stake my life on it either....lolYou "Would"?:huh::yay:

[Superman]

John Bolton is an experienced statements with a great pedigree in international relations - his opinion actually has some validity in evaluating a candidate and his preparation for dealing with the world wide stage. The others? Not so much. Especially Morris, who is an incompetent buffoon.Don't you mean, "Statesman"?:oldrazz:

Yeah, It don't surprise me that you would feel that way about him.

As far as I'm concerned he's nothing but another Bushee and I'll never trust another word any of them say ever again.

I do agree with your assessment of Morris though. :up:

[Kelly]

oops forgot the n't.....considering the context, you couldn't figure that out? damn, Supes you didn't even have to google that one......lol

[Superman]

oops forgot the n't.....considering the context, you couldn't figure that out? damn, Supes you didn't even have to google that one......lol:lmao: :up:

[Marx]

Obama feels McCain's surge flak
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jul/26/obama-feels-mccains-surge-flak/

[kainedamo]

The whole surge thing wasn't some ingenious idea and it actually went against the recommendations of (the Iraqi commission?? :huh:) some commission.

Basically, I feel the surge was a 50/50. Is Obama actually gonna get more flak for being against the surge than McCain for being for the Iraq war in the first place?

[Matt]

The whole surge thing wasn't some ingenious idea and it actually went against the recommendations of (the Iraqi commission?? :huh:) some commission.

Basically, I feel the surge was a 50/50. Is Obama actually gonna get more flak for being against the surge than McCain for being for the Iraq war in the first place?

Hmm, it depends. the American people do not want to lose the war. If McCain can create the perception that we are winning the war and the surge will lead to the end of the war, then it will outweigh McCain's initial support. If he cannot convince the American people that we can win, then Obama's strategy will resonate more.

[StrainedEyes]

Hmm, it depends. the American people do not want to lose the war. If McCain can create the perception that we are winning the war and the surge will lead to the end of the war, then it will outweigh McCain's initial support. If he cannot convince the American people that we can win, then Obama's strategy will resonate more.

Wasn't it confirmed like 3 days ago, from the horses mouth, that McCain seems to have no idea what the surge really is?

Either way, the majority of America wants out of the war, and McCain has said that the majority of America is wrong. It's going to be hard for him to spin it into the positive.

[Matt]

But the majority of Americans also do not want to lose the war. For McCain's campaign to be successful, McCain must convince Americans that the surge can end the war. It is a stretch, but its do-able (making Americans believe it, that is).

[rdh007]

I love how we call it "the surge" when it really is just a matter of the inept triumvirate of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld's inability to understand what it would take to truly accomplish the mission in Iraq. Of course, that's taking for granted there was a mission in the first place. This wasn't a surge, it was getting the troop levels to where they needed to be. McCain, in his defense and as I recall, said there weren't enough from the beginning. The problem was BushCo trying to have it both ways, having the war they wanted without impacting anything else. This is one of the reasons why I believe McCain would be a step up from Bush.

[StrainedEyes]

But the majority of Americans also do not want to lose the war. For McCain's campaign to be successful, McCain must convince Americans that the surge can end the war. It is a stretch, but its do-able (making Americans believe it, that is).

I think the same people who don't want to lose the war, are the same people who want us to stay. I can't believe that the majority of American's care if we win, I think most people realize that there's no way to really win or lose this war, it's a stand still.

We want out, and they want us out. Higher ups need to bite their pride and accept it, McCain's stance on the war and bringing troops home is not helping him win the election.

[StorminNorman]

Many don't like Dick Morris, but he has been a part of the underbelly of Washington, and much of what he has said has come to pass.

Not really. In real political consultant circles, Morris is considered a bit of a joke. He is a product of his own self marketing.

Everything that he has predicted, and has been successful at, were little short of obvious.

[StorminNorman]

Don't you mean, "Statesman"?:oldrazz:

Yeah, It don't surprise me that you would feel that way about him.

As far as I'm concerned he's nothing but another Bushee and I'll never trust another word any of them say ever again.

I do agree with your assessment of Morris though. :up:

Ha - I love posting while intoxicated:woot:

Bolton is not a Bushee as much as a man who is of similar beliefs in dealing with world issues. There is a difference. Bolton, for example, has been a vocal critic of Bush's removing North Korea's sanctions.

[terry78]

What would constitute "winning" the war? What would be the overall objective?

[StorminNorman]

What would constitute "winning" the war? What would be the overall objective?

A stable, free, democratic Iraq. An Iraq that won't fall to radical groups as soon as America leaves.

[Marx]

What would constitute "winning" the war? What would be the overall objective?

A stable, free, democratic Iraq. An Iraq that won't fall to radical groups as soon as America leaves.

The responsibility of a stable, free, democratic Iraq falls on the shoulders of the Iraqi government, not America. If that is the definition of winning the war, we may never leave. There are no gurantees that once we leave, everything will remain in place as we would like. (Despite the most positive circumstances on the ground.)

[Superman]

Not really. In real political consultant circles, Morris is considered a bit of a joke. He is a product of his own self marketing.

Everything that he has predicted, and has been successful at, were little short of obvious.Wow, Hell must be freezing over, I couldn't agree more with Norman on this one. :wow::wow::oldrazz::woot:

[Tag279]

Wow, Hell must be freezing over, I couldn't agree more with Norman on this one. :wow::wow::oldrazz::woot:

I know man I was thinking the same thing as I was reading. scary :woot: stuff :oldrazz:

[Kelly]

Where the hell is Hillary, what happened to all of the campaigning she was going to do for Obama............lmao.

[Marx]

Where the hell is Hillary, what happened to all of the campaigning she was going to do for Obama............lmao.

She's being kept in the shadows until Obama officially announces her as his VP. :cwink:

[rdh007]

A stable, free, democratic Iraq. An Iraq that won't fall to radical groups as soon as America leaves.

I just don't see that any time soon. But I suppose I'm a pessimist.

[Doomed_hero]

that is kinda a pipe dream imo. The paying off of rival factions and the surge have helped, to some degree, stablize the military situation. But the political one is still a mess. And the military one is not as strong as everyone thinks, the alliances and surge could fall apart and that would lead us right back to where we were. If that is the goal and we go though with it, McCain would be right and we would be there 100 year.....Ohh I mean McCain from 5 months ago, not the new McCain who belives Obama's plan is right enough to claim it as his own.

[The Overlord]

A stable, free, democratic Iraq. An Iraq that won't fall to radical groups as soon as America leaves.

Ever heard the phrase pyrrhic victory?

Besides can you prove the surge is anything besides a band aid, that lessens the problems, but doesn't really deal with them and as soon as the troops leave, the problems come back in force? Because of that's the case its a band aid, not a solution.

[souvlaki]

So I guess with all the rumors floating around right now, John Edwards probably is not in the running for VP anymore. Not that I thought he'd get it anyhow, but I guess the whole affair thing being discussed in the media kind of sealed the deal. In retrospect, if there is any truth to this, I suppose it's probably a good thing he didn't get the nomination. Probably would have sunk his campaign. I still find it odd that the Nat'l Enquirer may have scooped anyone on anything though, which is why this whole thing seems even more bizarre, and hard to believe.

[Matt]

Sort of carrying this over from the McCain thread...

Think about it, McCain is just running a piss poor campaign. He is giving all the wrong messages, saying all the wrong things, sucking up to the wrong crowds, just a bad campaign all around.

Meanwhile, on the otherside of the coin, Obama is certainly running an effective fund raising campaign, but he should be beating McCain by 20 points. Recent polls show McCain making some gains on him. Like with Clinton, Obama just can't seem to seal the deal. This should be a blow out, yet its not. Why is that? Many will claim it is Obama's attitude/inability to reach out to blue collar voters.

Curious that in what could be the most important election of 50 years, we have such crappy campaigns.

[StorminNorman]

The Obama campaign is brilliant - the problem is Obama.

McCain's campaign is horrendous - he is saved by Obama.

[Matt]

Brilliant way of summing it up, Norm. :up:

[Mr Sparkle]

A stable, free, democratic Iraq. An Iraq that won't fall to radical groups as soon as America leaves.

what makes anyone think that this can be achieved through war?:huh:

[Darthphere]

If we kill them all, Iraq will be stable, free of any people and democratic in it's isolation.

[Mr Sparkle]

ohhh.
makes sense.

[The Overlord]

The Obama campaign is brilliant - the problem is Obama.

McCain's campaign is horrendous - he is saved by Obama.

Why do you say that, Obama's personal charisma is the reason why the campaign does as well as it does. Take Obama out and replace him with a boring policy wank and McCain has a way better chance.

Anyway six points is nothing to sneeze at and it doesn't matter if Obama weins by six points or 20, what matters is he wins.

[The Overlord]

The Obama campaign is brilliant - the problem is Obama.

McCain's campaign is horrendous - he is saved by Obama.

Why do you say that, Obama's personal charisma is the reason why the campaign does as well as it does. Take Obama out and replace him with a boring policy wank and McCain has a way better chance.

Anyway six points is nothing to sneeze at and it doesn't matter if Obama weins by six points or 20, what matters is he wins.

[Kelly]

WE THE PEOPLE, are the reason for such crappy campaigns of the late 20th and 21st Centuries.

We rant and rail over the fact that we cannot trust people in politics. That they don't tell the truth. That they flip flop. Etc.....

YET, in order to get through the primaries they have to cater to the far right and far left, AND THEN begin their walk, (and in some cases) run towards the center in order to win the national election. When they begin to do that, we start yelling flip flop, liar, just another politician.

Candidates in many cases cannot show us who they are, BECAUSE WE WON'T VOTE FOR THEM. We are so ****in superficial in our thinking.

Ask Huckabee.....you may not agree with his stand on issues. But he was and is today the same person as when he started. He changed for no one, and when he was allowed to speak, he spoke his heart. We see how far that got him.

I believe that Obama is far more liberal than we are seeing at the moment. I believe he is far more towards the Socialism of Europe than what we are seeing at the moment.

I believe McCain is far more moderate in social areas, and far more conservative in fiscal areas, and far too old to be a president for more than 4 years.

But we will never know for sure exactly where these men stand, we will never know their hearts, because we don't allow that to happen.

If McCain, would run and speak louder on what he has now begun to do, and that is begin speaking about getting troops out of Iraq, but still make sure that he is moving at the pace the leadership on the ground there says to, but begin using terminology of getting out. He needs to spend more time speaking about Afghanistan, and a surge there to capture, kill, whatever they want to do to Osama. Continue talking about off-shore drilling, Holiday gas tax, pushing for alternative fuels, he needs to chill on slamming Obama at every turn, this does not work with independent voters... etc......and THEN, DO NOT, AND I REPEAT, DO NOT choose Mitt Romney as a running mate, and run for a 4 year term only.

Obama, needs to continue doing what he is doing, but move away from his stand in Iraq that seems to have an underlying thread of not listening to the leadership (military) on the ground. (It's ok, once he is president to take some liberties with their thinking and look at the budget of the war, along with what is going on on the ground there) but now is not the time to be saying this, because NO ONE really knows him as a war president, therefore that is automatically a weakness for him. (YES, THE MAJORITY OF THE US want us out of Iraq, BUT not an immediate pull out without thinking). The European trip was an excellent move, (it was alittle too long out of the US, but still a good move). Not visiting the troops was a stupid move, but will probably not be a problem once the debates begin. If McCain brings it up in a debate he is going to come off as a jack ass. Obama, needs to chill on the no offshore drilling, and the holiday gas tax. He needs to start talking more about pushing for major reforms as far as pork barrel spending, and come up with a "specific plan" as far as energy, that includes more drilling, building up refineries quickly here in the US, etc.

[bunk]

I don't remember any campaign before Bush well enough to say how poor they really are. It does seem like it should be a more decisive race given the difference between the candidates. Thus far it's been a fairly clean campaign though, as long as that persists I'm not going to complain.

[StorminNorman]

what makes anyone think that this can be achieved through war?:huh:

No I don't. This will only be achieved through political channels. The country, however, must be stable for those means to work. This required security, security requires military presence.

This is why the surge has been so successful - not simply because violence has decreased, but because Iraqi's have made tremendous strides politically. These strides would not of taken place without American military presence.

[The Senator]

I don't really see how Obama has run an awful campaign. When you consider the fact that he has statistically significant leads in states such as New Mexico, Iowa, Montana and Colorado, in addition to his minor leads/ competitiveness in Florida, Ohio, Virginia and Nevada, I fail to see how he is running 'one of the worst campaigns ever.' When you consider how much money his campaign fundraised in every month throughout the campaign, I really don't see how he's running 'one of the worst campaigns ever.' When he has national leads ranging from 3-9 points in the past week alone, with no polls indicating a national McCain lead, I fail to see how that even comes close to running the 'worst campaign ever.' Obama's campaign is easily the best Democratic campaign in 16 years.

You want to talk about running one of the worst campaigns ever? Look at McCain. He had a chance to reinvent the image of the Republican Party, and while he has adopted not-so-traditional views on issues such as global warming, he jump started his campaign with an appearance with President Bush, who tap-danced his endorsement into an oversized dunce cap worn by the McCain campaign since March. He has every opportunity to ridicule Obama's lack of experience and bring him down because of it, yet every time he makes a swing at Obama for that, the American people don't buy into it. McCain's campaign is a true example of one of the worst campaigns ever, when you look at all the opportunities he could have pursued but didn't, for whatever reasons.

[StorminNorman]

Why do you say that, Obama's personal charisma is the reason why the campaign does as well as it does. Take Obama out and replace him with a boring policy wank and McCain has a way better chance.

Anyway six points is nothing to sneeze at and it doesn't matter if Obama weins by six points or 20, what matters is he wins.

Obama's has great charisma when working off a script, however he can also come off as arrogant and elitist, this is compounded with the fact he is a very liberal candidate.

This election has nothing to do with John McCain - which is good for McCain since he is proving to be incompetent at campaigning - this election is a referendum on Mr. Obama. Obama has EVERYTHING going for him right now, so his lead is not only underwhelming, its pathetic and should have his campaign very concerned.

[StrainedEyes]

Meanwhile, on the otherside of the coin, Obama is certainly running an effective fund raising campaign, but he should be beating McCain by 20 points. Recent polls show McCain making some gains on him. Like with Clinton, Obama just can't seem to seal the deal. This should be a blow out, yet its not.

Which polls are those?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109102/Gallup-Daily-Obama-49-McCain-40.aspx
49% to 40%

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080727DailyUpdateGraph1_yyyytttt.gif

CNN's most recent poll has them at 45% and 39%

If anything the gap is getting a little wider recently.

[SuperT]

Obama's campaign is nearly perfect, and that is evident with the money he raises just from supporter donations, and the amount of people that have registered to vote thanks to his campaign. And that fact that he was able to steam roll over Hillbot during the primaries, and able to match her in the polls, even with stupid name recognition alone.

McCain's campaign is the one that's absolutely ABSYMAL. He's brought up nothing that he can say will differ or be any different from the administration that we currently have in office.

[The Overlord]

Obama's has great charisma when working off a script, however he can also come off as arrogant and elitist, this is compounded with the fact he is a very liberal candidate.

This election has nothing to do with John McCain - which is good for McCain since he is proving to be incompetent at campaigning - this election is a referendum on Mr. Obama. Obama has EVERYTHING going for him right now, so his lead is not only underwhelming, its pathetic and should have his campaign very concerned.

So what if he's a liberal, why is that a bad thing? I would rather smeone with strong liberal values, then some loser like Kerry, who had no values and changed his position to suit the whim of the time. If a Republican can have strong conservative values, why can't a Democrat have strong liberal values?

The elist thing is BS, it wouldn't matter if the dems were running a hobo for President, the GOP would still call him a elist. Bush went Yale and he was born into a weathly family, he's not an elist? How rich was Obama when he was kid, did his dad's friends bail him out when his companies went out of business. Its BS.

As for his lead, who cares? All signs still point to him winning. Bill clinton came out of no where and didn't have a huge lead and he still won.

[Kelly]

I think those that are looking at Obama as an Elitist is not from his background, but from some of his quotes in speeches.

No, no one is going to see Bush in that manner from his speeches........lmao. An idiot maybe.....

[StorminNorman]

So what if he's a liberal, why is that a bad thing? I would rather smeone with strong liberal values, then some loser like Kerry, who had no values and changed his position to suit the whim of the time. If a Republican can have strong conservative values, why can't a Democrat have strong liberal values?

Its not that he's liberal - its that he is far liberal. Most Americans are not extremists, they are centrists. McCain, ideologically, is far more in line with more Americans than Obama.

The elist thing is BS, it wouldn't matter if the dems were running a hobo for President, the GOP would still call him a elist. Bush went Yale and he was born into a weathly family, he's not an elist? How rich was Obama when he was kid, did his dad's friends bail him out when his companies went out of business. Its BS.

You become elitist when you start going to San Francisco and insult rural Americans.

[quot]As for his lead, who cares? All signs still point to him winning. Bill clinton came out of no where and didn't havea huge lead and he still won.[/quote]

Clinton won because of a man named Ross Perot.

[The Overlord]

No I don't. This will only be achieved through political channels. The country, however, must be stable for those means to work. This required security, security requires military presence.

This is why the surge has been so successful - not simply because violence has decreased, but because Iraqi's have made tremendous strides politically. These strides would not of taken place without American military presence.

If its such a sucess, why can't we bring back the troops right now?

If the violence comes back when the tropps leave, it does't make the surge a sucess, it makes it a band aid.

[jaguarr]

She's being kept in a box until the election is over. :cwink:

Fixed that for you. :D

jag

[StorminNorman]

If its such a sucess, why can't we bring back the troops right now?

Its the fourth quarter and you are winning by two scores. Do you put in the bench because you are winning?

If the violence comes back when the tropps leave, it does't make the surge a sucess, it makes it a band aid.

If the success of the surge was only based on security, your point would be valid. The surge also allowed for many steps, politically, to be made in the right direction - also many of the militant tribes in Iraq have reformed from rebels working against the government and our military and have become politically active. As Martha Stuart would say "thats a good thing".

[Zen]

inexperience

his middle name

his race

his acquaintances

his tone...? elitism or not...

whether or not hes a muslim.


Despite all those barricades. hes still consistently beating McCain. and according to the most recent pollls... widening his lead once again.

Normin is correct. his campaign is absolutely athletic and agile... coupled with a surge in optimism and hope among half of the country... no matter how misguided it may or may not be placed... is propping Mr. Obama up. the problem is Obama himself. for many he is energizing, for the rest he is Risky... and a certain amount of Buyers remorse has validated those who have always been suspicious of him.

for a black man with a muslim father to win the presidency post 9/11....

you would have to be charismatic as hell and run a perfect campaign.

...he is.

and i think the only reason hes winning is because McCain is a piss poor candidate. its like a perfect storm.


Americans are more comfortable with a candidate like john edwards or hillary clinton. Obama just played a beautifull hand... and got by with the skin of his teeth, because his opponents then... also ran bad campaigns. he's the luckiest man in politics. and im excited about it.

[The Overlord]

Its the fourth quarter and you are winning by two scores. Do you put in the bench because you are winning?".

That's not the score though, my friend.



If the success of the surge was only based on security, your point would be valid. The surge also allowed for many steps, politically, to be made in the right direction - also many of the militant tribes in Iraq have reformed from rebels working against the government and our military and have become politically active. As Martha Stuart would say "thats a good thing".

Baby steps, the same problems still reamin. It seems to the Iraqi government could just be surge maintain what control they have and buy time to figure out way out of their problems. This government is using the surge as crutch, so they don't haveto deal with the problems directly, if we could scale down troops, then you would see progress.

I of heard of another bombing in Iraq against *****e worshippers just today. Why is that progess, the ethinc divides still remain and the Kurds still want an independent nation and a lot of Iraqis still hate the US. Your defination of progress is far different mine.

[The Overlord]

Its not that he's liberal - its that he is far liberal. Most Americans are not extremists, they are centrists. McCain, ideologically, is far more in line with more Americans than Obama.
.

And Bush and his cronies weren't extremists? Double Standard!


You become elitist when you start going to San Francisco and insult rural Americans. .

Yes and appointing your friend to be the head of important government agency like FEMA, isn't elist at all. Double standard!

Republicans always accuse the dems of the exact same thing they do all the time! The Republican party is elitist and extremist!



Clinton won because of a man named Ross Perot.

And Obama will win because of man named Geroge W. Bush.

[Zen]

Curious that in what could be the most important election of 50 years, we have such crappy campaigns.

The most important election in the last 50 years was 2004. and we blew it.

now its a reform election. if we elect someone who furthers the damage started in 2000, then we'll all be calling the next election the most important.

the most important, was cutting the snake off at the head when we clearly had the information that it was a snake. the only reason this is a big deal this term is Obama. if it was a regular candidate who wasnt so striking. like say... warner. we would just be hopefull that he would bring about the skill and wisdom to fix this, but that sentiment is coupled with the unprecedented event of a western nation electing a black man as head of state.

[StorminNorman]

And Bush and his cronies weren't extremists? Double Standard!

Bush wasn't labeled far right, and thats the difference. Perception is Reality.

Yes and appointing your friend to be the head of important government agency like FEMA, isn't elist at all. Double standard!

No - thats politics.

Republicans always accuse the dems of the exact same thing they do all the time! The Republican party is elitist and extremist!

Republicans go to San Francisco and insult rural voters? :whatever:

And Obama will win because of man named Geroge W. Bush.

If that was REALLY the case, the polls would be different.

[Zen]

Bush has pushed many to accept a far left candidate... its like over compensating to regain controll when when you're driving...And thats REALLY where most america is... they are reactionary, not centrists.

its not politics to appoint someone like that.... that was crony-ism to a disgusting level that trumps politics

Republicans go to rural areas and insult urban folks who vote liberal. :up:

Obama is winning, the polls are reflecting that.

[StorminNorman]

That's not the score though, my friend.

Three scores? Four? Five? Certainly you are not implying we are losing the battle.

Baby steps, the same problems still reamin. It seems to the Iraqi government could just be surge maintain what control they have and buy time to figure out way out of their problems. This government is using the surge as crutch, so they don't haveto deal with the problems directly, if we could scale down troops, then you would see progress.

Except...that the government has now reached 15 of 18 benchmarks (compared to just 3 a year ago)...and it also now controls 97% of the country...so your entire argument here...is simply...wrong :huh:

I of heard of another bombing in Iraq against *****e worshippers just today. Why is that progess, the ethinc divides still remain and the Kurds still want an independent nation and a lot of Iraqis still hate the US. Your defination of progress is far different mine.

I never said it was Candy Land.

[StorminNorman]

I don't align myself with anyone besides myself.

Well...thats not exactly true. I would like to go on record to state that I align myself with Craig T. Nelson.

[Varient]

Pardon - Pause for Humor:

I HAVE DECIDED TO BECOME A WRITE-IN CANDIDATE. HERE IS MY PLATFORM:

(1) Press 1 for English is immediately banned. English is the official language; speak it or wait at the border until you can.

(2) We will immediately go into a two year isolationist posture to straighten out the country's attitude. NO imports, no exports. We will use the 'Walmart' policy, 'If we ain't got it, you don't need it.'

(3) When imports are allowed, there will be a 100% import tax on it.

(4) All retired military personnel will be required to man one of our many observation towers on the southern border. (six month tour) They will be under strict orders not to fire on SOUTHBOUND aliens.

(5) Social security will immediately return to its original state. If you didn't put nuttin in, you ain't gettin nuttin out. The president nor any other politician will not be able to touch it.

(6) Welfare - Checks will be handed out on Fridays at the end of the 40 hour school week and the successful completion of urinalysis and a passing grade.

(7) Professional Athletes --Steroids - The FIRST time you check positive you're banned for life.

(8) Crime - We will adopt the Turkish method, the first time you steal, you lose your right hand. There is no more life sentences. If convicted, you will be put to death by the same method you chose for your victim; gun, knife, strangulation, etc...

(9) One export will be allowed; Wheat, The world needs to eat. A bushel of wheat will be the exact price of a barrel of oil.

(10) All foreign aid using American taxpayer money will immediately cease, and the saved money will pay off the national debt and ultimately lower taxes. When disasters occur around the world, we'll ask the American people if they want to donate to a disaster fund, and each citizen can make the decision whether it's a worthy cause.

(11) The Pledge of Allegiance will be said every day at school and every day in Congress.

(12) The National Anthem will be played at all appropriate ceremonies, sporting events, outings, etc...

Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes but a vote for me will get you better than what you have, and better than what you're gonna get.


Thanks for listening, and remember to write in my name on the ballot in November.

God Bless America!!!

Bill Cosby!!!

[Marx]

Fixed that for you. :D

jag

Oh Jag, you always bring a smile to my face. :funny:

[The Overlord]

Bush wasn't labeled far right, and thats the difference. Perception is Reality..

So believing the executive branch should be almost all powerful isn't extremist. Thanks for clearing that up.



No - thats politics. ..

Oh so elist words are bad, eltist actions, are okay? Wow thanks for clearing that up.



Republicans go to San Francisco and insult rural voters? :whatever:..

Yes, because Obama saying one thing behind closed doors is as bad Bush's rampant cronism. Clearly Obama is worse. :whatever:



If that was REALLY the case, the polls would be different.

How much was clinton ahead by in his election again?

Obama is far more likely to land a knock out against McCain then vice versa
and at this point Obama can bleed mcCain out, the odds are in his favor, so it doesn't matter if Obama isn't a million points ahead, McCain is still in an extremely uphill battle and Bush is the one he can thank for that.

Polls have off this campaign anyway, they predicated Clinto would beat Obama, no Obama has the social trends on his side, the conditions on his side, if this were a war, Obama force's would outnumber McCain's and Obama would have home court advanatge.

[StorminNorman]

"We learned from the Pentagon last night that the visit would be viewed instead as a campaign event," the adviser, retired Air Force Maj. Gen. Scott Gration, said in a statement.


"Senator Obama did not want to have a trip to see our wounded warriors perceived as a campaign event when his visit was to show his appreciation for our troops and decided instead not to go."

Reuters has more from the Pentagon:

The Pentagon in a statement cited longstanding Defense Department policy that prohibits military personnel or facilities from association with partisan political campaigns and elections.


"We told him he could visit Landstuhl (Regional Medical Center in western Germany) with his Senate staff, but not with his campaign staff," said Army Lt. Col. Elizabeth Hibner.

John McCain, whose spokesman said Obama was "wrong" to cancel the visit, knows about this policy. His campaign explicitly referred to it during his "Service to America" tour:

With Department of Defense rules prohibiting political campaigning on military bases, it was determined that in some cases McCain could visit the installations as a senator but could not engage in any political activity or have news media present.

McCain campaign officials said Thursday they intentionally did not campaign on military property.

"We follow the rules," said senior McCain adviser Steve Schmidt.


ABC News reports that Barack Obama was planning to visit two U.S. military bases in Germany, but decided it wasn't the right time:

The German magazine Der Spiegel is reporting on line that Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill. has "cancelled a planned short visit to the Rammstein and Landstuhl U.S. military bases in the southwest German state of Rhineland-Palatinate. The visits were planned for Friday."


"Barack Obama will not be coming to us," a spokesperson for the U.S. military hospital in Landstuhl told Der Spiegel. "I don't know why."

Obama senior adviser Robert Gibbs told us in a statement, "During his trip as part of the CODEL to Afghanistan and Iraq, Senator Obama visited the combat support hospital in the Green Zone in Baghdad and had a number of other visits with the troops. For the second part of his trip, the senator wanted to visit the men and women at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center to express his gratitude for their service and sacrifice. The senator decided out of respect for these servicemen and women that it would be inappropriate to make a stop to visit troops at a U.S. military facility as part of a trip funded by the campaign."

John McCain's campaign has been quick to call most of Obama's activity abroad inappropriate. Now that Obama has chosen not to do something, you might think they would be pleased. But you would be mistaken:

"Barack Obama is wrong. It is never 'inappropriate' to visit our men and women in the military," McCain spokesman Brian Rogers said in response to the news.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/24/obama-cancels-military-ba_n_114804.html

Obama Defends Scrubbing Visit to Wounded Troops
By REUTERS

Filed at 10:36 a.m. ET

LONDON (Reuters) - U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama on Saturday defended his decision to cancel a visit with U.S. troops at a military hospital in Germany because of concerns it would be viewed as a political event.

Obama had intended to stop at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center on Friday morning, the day after delivering a speech on transatlantic relations in Berlin as part of his trip to the Middle East and Europe.

But the campaign issued a statement saying the Illinois senator decided to drop the visit from his schedule after an adviser was told it would be perceived as political.

At a news conference in London as he wrapped up his trip, Obama said the Pentagon notified the campaign that the visit would have been viewed as political because he was bringing along a campaign adviser, retired Maj. Gen. Scott Gration. Gration advises the campaign on an unpaid basis.

"That triggered then a concern that maybe our visit was going to be perceived as political," Obama said. "And the last thing that I want to do is have injured soldiers and the staff at these institutions having to sort through whether this is political or not and get caught in the cross-fire between campaigns."

The Pentagon took issue with a statement by the campaign citing conversations with military officials as a reason for canceling the trip. The Pentagon said it never told Obama he could not visit Landstuhl, only that he could not do so with campaign staff and reporters there.

The Obama campaign countered there was never any intention to allow reporters and that Gration was to be the only adviser to participate in the visit with the senator.

The U.S. Defense Department has long-standing policies that prohibit military personnel and military facilities from any association with partisan political campaigns and elections.

Obama spoke at a news conference after a meeting with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown. He was completing a tour that included Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, Jordan, Germany, France and Britain.

(Reporting by Caren Bohan, editing by Vicki Allen)
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/washington/politics-usa-obama-germany-troops.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

[Zen]

I don't align myself with anyone besides myself.

Well...thats not exactly true. I would like to go on record to state that I align myself with Craig T. Nelson.

i edited it, my bad :cwink:

[StorminNorman]

So believing the executive branch should be almost all powerful isn't extremist. Thanks for clearing that up.

I am going to ignore the incorrectness of the statement and simply tell you you obviously misread, or at least failed to comprehend, my past comment.

Oh so elist words are bad, eltist actions, are okay? Wow thanks for clearing that up.

In politics? In a campaign? Yes.

Yes, because Obama saying one thing behind closed doors is as bad Bush's rampant cronism. Clearly Obama is worse. :whatever:

...

You are failing to comprehend me it seems.


How much was clinton ahead by in his election again?

Irrelevant. Bush is not going to be MORE of a factor in November than he is now - the Bush factor has already taken place. Unless something major happens, whatever negative impact Bush would have on McCain has already taken place.

Obama is far more likely to land a knock out against McCain then vice versa
and at this point Obama can bleed mcCain out, the odds are in his favor, so it doesn't matter if Obama isn't a million points ahead, McCain is still in an extremely uphill battle and Bush is the one he can thank for that.

No - if Obama was going to knock out McCain, he would have already. Again - McCain has run an incompetent campaign, Obama has won a brilliant won.

Polls have off this campaign anyway, they predicated Clinto would beat Obama, no Obama has the social trends on his side, the conditions on his side, if this were a war, Obama force's would outnumber McCain's and Obama would have home court advanatge.

...

:dry:

[The Overlord]

Three scores? Four? Five? Certainly you are not implying we are losing the battle..

Its stll too soon, because of those things you emntioned can change at any time, that's the GOP doesn't want to set a time table, because they know as the troops leave, it all goes back to hell.

Also you seem to be enjoying your pyrrhic victory, you do realize this is a pyrrhic victory, even if the US wins, it lost more than it gained by going in, in the first place.

So if sucess is a pyrrhic victory, how is that a good thing?



QUOTE=StorminNorman;15379635]
Except...that the government has now reached 15 of 18 benchmarks (compared to just 3 a year ago)...and it also now controls 97% of the country...so your entire argument here...is simply...wrong :huh:.[/QUOTE]

So that bombing was irrelevant, that doesn't matter. Also what do these benchmarks even mean, can they revese themselves, are they irreversable?



I never said it was Candy Land.

**** candy Land, if that happend any where else in the world, it be terrible, the fact that we treat like business as usual is a bad trend.

[Mr Sparkle]

Three scores? Four? Five? Certainly you are not implying we are losing the battle.


to me, it's more about " Is it a battle that can be won or lost?"
the troublesome thing here is that we must remember that Iraq, as a country is a construct and it's made up of tribes that HATE each other for whatever reason, is a unified Iraq possible?
maybe, by god I hope yes. is it possible through military strength? probably not, because it was through military might that It was created, the divisions whithin it are a product of it's creation and thus closing those divisions are going to be difficult to say the least.
the problem I see is that once that "security" problem is dealt with, there will still be many people who have lost family members, property and a million other things in this " war " ready to be radicalized or to spread radicalization.
surely some of you can understand that, when people within your own country are complaining about losing sovereignty simply because they have to hear "para español presione 2" when they make a phone call, people who have their constitution fashioned by foreign forces and enforced by foreign military might will no doubt be even MORE Pissed off, since they don't even have direct TV to lull them to sleep.
it's a tightrope, and heaven knows I hope for the best, but the war, was a bad call, and to me, while there have certainly been favorable results, I simply fear the consequences of it all, I am always reminded of operation Ajax, the US thought it was doing something good, and ultimately, despite stupid made for TV movies, this operation was the real "path to 9-11"

I recently bought a sticker that parodies the Obama campaign but the sentiments in it, pretty much sum up my feelings on the world right know.

it says

"dare to hope" in big white letters against a blue background and underneath in smaller print it says

"prepare to be disapointed."

[Matt]

The most important election in the last 50 years was 2004. and we blew it.

now its a reform election. if we elect someone who furthers the damage started in 2000, then we'll all be calling the next election the most important.

the most important, was cutting the snake off at the head when we clearly had the information that it was a snake. the only reason this is a big deal this term is Obama. if it was a regular candidate who wasnt so striking. like say... warner. we would just be hopefull that he would bring about the skill and wisdom to fix this, but that sentiment is coupled with the unprecedented event of a western nation electing a black man as head of state.

I'd agree with you entirely if I believed for a second that Obama had either the skill or wisdom to fix it like Warner. As it is...I do not believe he does. When I see Barack Obama I see a liberal who is bordering on European Socialism, and frankly, our country needs that just about as much as we need another neo-conservative right now. Neither of these candidates have what it takes to fix the country, IMO. Our best bet was either Richardson or Edwards (who matured immensely as a candidate since 2004) and the media kicked both of them out to the curb.

[Mr Sparkle]

hahahahahaha "european socialism"

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

[StorminNorman]

Its stll too soon, because of those things you emntioned can change at any time, that's the GOP doesn't want to set a time table, because they know as the troops leave, it all goes back to hell.

Again, you show your ignorance. Bush (of all people) recently talked about bringing home the troops quickly. We have been removing troops from Iraq for months.

The GOP don't want to set a time table because is a stupid idea. Setting a time table does nothing but give the enemy a set of dates to wait for. By removing troops as necessary - you avoid that.

Also you seem to be enjoying your pyrrhic victory, you do realize this is a pyrrhic victory, even if the US wins, it lost more than it gained by going in, in the first place.

So if sucess is a pyrrhic victory, how is that a good thing?

A pyrrhic victory is always preferred to a pyrrhic defeat.



So that bombing was irrelevant, that doesn't matter. Also what do these benchmarks even mean, can they revese themselves, are they irreversable?


A bomb goes off in Israel - does that mean the government is falling apart?

**** candy Land, if that happend any where else in the world, it be terrible, the fact that we treat like business as usual is a bad trend.

No, actually in the Middle East its not all that uncommon.

[Zen]

I'd agree with you entirely if I believed for a second that Obama had either the skill or wisdom to fix it like Warner. As it is...I do not believe he does. When I see Barack Obama I see a liberal who is bordering on European Socialism, and frankly, our country needs that just about as much as we need another neo-conservative right now. Neither of these candidates have what it takes to fix the country, IMO. Our best bet was either Richardson or Edwards (who matured immensely as a candidate since 2004) and the media kicked both of them out to the curb.

so you think Obama actually represents Change, just not the kind of Change you would like to see.

[StorminNorman]

to me, it's more about " Is it a battle that can be won or lost?"
the troublesome thing here is that we must remember that Iraq, as a country is a construct and it's made up of tribes that HATE each other for whatever reason, is a unified Iraq possible?
maybe, by god I hope yes. is it possible through military strength? probably not, because it was through military might that It was created, the divisions whithin it are a product of it's creation and thus closing those divisions are going to be difficult to say the least.

America once was divided by two sides that didn't exactly love each other - and yet we came together. Will it be easy? No. But is it possible? Absolutely.

the problem I see is that once that "security" problem is dealt with, there will still be many people who have lost family members, property and a million other things in this " war " ready to be radicalized or to spread radicalization.
surely some of you can understand that, when people within your own country are complaining about losing sovereignty simply because they have to hear "para español presione 2" when they make a phone call, people who have their constitution fashioned by foreign forces and enforced by foreign military might will no doubt be even MORE Pissed off, since they don't even have direct TV to lull them to sleep.
it's a tightrope, and heaven knows I hope for the best, but the war, was a bad call, and to me, while there have certainly been favorable results, I simply fear the consequences of it all, I am always reminded of operation Ajax, the US thought it was doing something good, and ultimately, despite stupid made for TV movies, this operation was the real "path to 9-11"

I am not going to lie and say your worries are completely baseless. I, like you, can only hope you are wrong.

I recently bought a sticker that parodies the Obama campaign but the sentiments in it, pretty much sum up my feelings on the world right know.

it says

"dare to hope" in big white letters against a blue background and underneath in smaller print it says

"prepare to be disapointed."

:(

[Matt]

Every candidate represents change, my dear Zen. George Bush represented change. I'd hardly call it the right kind. Change for the sake of change is not a good thing nor is all change. Obama represents change, but not the kind of change our country needs, nor the kind of change his campaign tries to sell. If we simply move to the polar opposite of the Bush administration, our country will not recover. We needed a true moderate and a true leader in this election, someone who brings about the right kind of change. Our country needed Mark Warner. Look at the kind of change he brought to Virginia. Unfortunately, he was smart enough to realize the media would never let his campaign win with the two rock star candidates in the picture, so he sat it out...and now our country is going to suffer for it. :csad:

[The Overlord]

I am going to ignore the incorrectness of the statement and simply tell you you obviously misread, or at least failed to comprehend, my past comment.

You mean how Bush wasn't percieved as an extremsit. My freinds, I believe perceptions are changing.



In politics? In a campaign? Yes. .

I'm talking about values, can't you really say the GOP isn't elitist and this whole argument about elitism isn't just a smoke screen.

Here is something you are failing to percieve, the political landscape in America is changing and these tired old tactics of the GOP calling everyone they disagree an "elitist" aren't going to work.

So the fact the GOP acts like an elitist party overshadows the fact Obama said something, elitist, that will be soon forgotten anyway. Actions always speak louder than words.





...

You are failing to comprehend me it seems..

You are failing to comprehend the changing political landscape of America.




Irrelevant. Bush is not going to be MORE of a factor in November than he is now - the Bush factor has already taken place. Unless something major happens, whatever negative impact Bush would have on McCain has already taken place...

Not irrelavant, Bush has damaged the rep of his party and McCain is not running in a vaccum. The GOP brand as been tarnished (even many Republicans have admittd this), so the damage has already been done and that is what has stacked the deck against McCain.



No - if Obama was going to knock out McCain, he would have already. Again - McCain has run an incompetent campaign, Obama has won a brilliant won.

Fine, Obama will just bleed McCain out, the trends favor Obama, not McCain.
Death by a 1000 cuts ultimately works as well as a knock out punch.




...

:dry:

What you are the only one who can use metaphors?

[jaguarr]

America once was divided by two sides that didn't exactly love each other - and yet we came together. Will it be easy? No. But is it possible? Absolutely.


Iraq is more than two sides and is separated by a thousand years of religious zealotry and difference, along with a lot of previous bloodshed over it. A little different situation than what the U.S. went through.

jag

[StorminNorman]

You mean how Bush wasn't percieved as an extremsit. My freinds, I believe perceptions are changing.

Bush's perception now doesn't mean squat. He isn't running.

I'm talking about values, can't you really say the GOP isn't elitist and this whole argument about elitism isn't just a smoke screen.

No, the GOP isn't elitist. I don't consider the DNC elitist. I consider individuals elitist. Are there some Republican elitists? Yes.

Here is something you are failing to percieve, the political landscape in America is changing and these tired old tactics of the GOP calling everyone they disagree an "elitist" aren't going to work.

Except that it is working, here. Thus Obama's small lead in spite of McCain's ineptness.

So the fact the GOP acts like an elitist party overshadows the fact Obama said something, elitist, that will be soon forgotten anyway. Actions always speak louder than words.

Not in politics.

You are failing to comprehend the changing political landscape of America.

:dry:

Not irrelavant, Bush has damaged the rep of his party and McCain is not running in a vaccum. The GOP brand as been tarnished (even many Republicans have admittd this), so the damage has already been done and that is what has stacked the deck against McCain.

Again - if that was really the case, Obama's lead would be much larger.

Fine, Obama will just bleed McCain out, the trends favor Obama, not McCain.
Death by a 1000 cuts ultimately works as well as a knock out punch.
McCain is not bleeding.

What you are the only one who can use metaphors?

The :dry: was more about content than the literary device you used.

[Varient]

Iraq is more than two sides and is separated by a thousand years of religious zealotry and difference, along with a lot of previous bloodshed over it. A little different situation than what the U.S. went through.

jag

Scary.

How easily we "minimalize" literaly hundreds of years of fighting by comparing it to our civil war.

This imho is our biggest failing,.... the 'tude to have a quick answer w/o understanding the question.

Meh.

[Marx]

You mean how Bush wasn't percieved as an extremsit. My freinds, I believe perceptions are changing.

The perception that many have of Bush now is irrelevent. The point remains that when he ran, he was not seen as an extremist.

[jaguarr]

Scary.

How easily we "minimalize" literaly hundreds of years of fighting by comparing it to our civil war.

This imho is our biggest failing,.... the 'tude to have a quick answer w/o understanding the question.

Meh.

They should just get over it and accept our Democratic love and get along together like best friends forever from now on, Varient. Why can't they get that!?

jag

[Varient]

They should just get over it and accept our Democratic love and get along together like best friends forever from now on, Varient. Why can't they get that!?

jag

Dunno Jag - I really don't.

If the world would just do everything we say, regardless of our reasoning, ..................

[BlackestNight]

The Obama campaign is brilliant - the problem is Obama.

McCain's campaign is horrendous - he is saved by Obama.

Actually it’s the opposite.

The only thing saving the Republican brand is John McCain. If you were to replace john McCain with any other Republican Obama would have easily have stolen the middle. McCain may be running a *****y campaign but his Campaign is only being saved from dropping below 40% because of the McCain brand of Bipartisanship and honesty.

Plus Obama has Negatives that are out of his control such as having a Muslim name, Muslim father, being black, and being an incredibly intelligent (what may be perceived as elitist).

[Marx]

Actually it’s the opposite.

The only thing saving the Republican brand is John McCain. If you were to replace john McCain with any other Republican Obama would have easily have stolen the middle. McCain may be running a *****y campaign but his Campaign is only being saved from dropping below 40% because of the McCain brand of Bipartisanship and honesty.

Plus Obama has Negatives that are out of his control such as having a Muslim name, Muslim father, being black, and being an incredibly intelligent (what may be perceived as elitist).

While John McCain is a great step for the party, his turn toward the harder right is hurting his support among independent voters.

[StorminNorman]

Actually it’s the opposite.

The only thing saving the Republican brand is John McCain. If you were to replace john McCain with any other Republican Obama would have easily have stolen the middle. McCain may be running a *****y campaign but his Campaign is only being saved from dropping below 40% because of the McCain brand of Bipartisanship and honesty.

I believe you are completely wrong. I think if you plugged any competent GOP candidate (so basically...Romney) you would have the same numbers. This election has nothing to do with McCain - its everything about Obama.

Plus Obama has Negatives that are out of his control such as having a Muslim name, Muslim father, being black, and being an incredibly intelligent (what may be perceived as elitist).

Obama is not "incredible intelligent" - no more so than any other politician. He has shown charisma, not intelligence.

[SentinelMind]

If Mark Warner or Evan Bayh were given the opportunity to run this year, they'd have likely won the primaries (assuming liberals splitting candidates) ...and they'd have sealed the deal against McCain.

Of course, Hillary Clinton put a stop to that....so a traditional hard worker populist practical candidate like those two had no chance. It'd take a "rock star" candidate to beat Hillary.

Of course, any Democrat should seal the deal against John Dole...I mean.. McCain....
but alas...Obama's short resume and questionable background, values, the fact he's Black,...and affinity towards European socialism...yes it exists Mr. Sparkle....read about it...that puts Obama at a ceiling against McCain.

[bunk]

I'm still finding people who think Obama is a Muslim. Some are just completely oblivious, and others just plain don't believe he isn't for some unknown reason. The only Muslim man with a crazy radical pastor... Amazing!

[Marx]

Clinton to embark on 'extensive' travel for Obama
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/28/clinton-to-embark-on-extensive-travel-for-obama/

[Marx]

Obama heads to VP vetter's office building
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/28/obama-heads-to-vp-vetter%e2%80%99s-office-building/

[Sandman138]

This is why the surge has been so successful - not simply because violence has decreased, but because Iraqi's have made tremendous strides politically. These strides would not of taken place without American military presence.

Again, reading through the report you posted, I see a lot more political abuses of power than strides. And what's really disturbing is that the areas that haven't been met are officially showing no signs of progress for the most part.

[Marx]

Kaine 'very,very high' on VP shortlist
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/12115

[terry78]

Ah, for the days of Churchill. Now there was a man that knew how to stop a war, I tells ya.

*puffs on corncob pipe*

[Zen]

Obama is not "incredible intelligent" - no more so than any other politician. He has shown charisma, not intelligence.


SUUUUUUUUBjective!

[BlackestNight]

Iraq can never become a Peaceful democracy unless the people can come to terms with each other and no amount of Government progress can change that. What we want is the Iraqi people to surrender there will to an Installed Government. Right now the Iraqi people don't fell the Government is government of the people. Which is Why the Militias will always run things locally (in the absents of an American Occupation).

[Tag279]

The only reason at this point Obama has not hit a double digit lead in the tracking polls is becaise of the fact that 10-15% of Americans have a real problem with a person identified as a black being a President.

Matt and anyone else can call me racist but that is the reason he has not pulled away. I am not saying that this cannot be overcome but it is a barrier that he has to contend with.

Articulate Intellegent black men are often wrongly viewed as arrogant. How many times has Matt and others called Obama arrogant.

Obama has been characterized as having no background for being President and not extremely intelligent but I beg to differ.

Following high school, Obama moved to Los Angeles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles%2C_California), where he studied at Occidental College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occidental_College) for two years; he then transferred to Columbia University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_College_of_Columbia_University) in New York City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City), where he majored in political science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_science) with a specialization in international relations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_relations).[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama#cite_note-8) Obama graduated with a B.A. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Arts) from Columbia in 1983, then worked at Business International Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_International_Corporation) and New York Public Interest Research Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Public_Interest_Research_Group)

After four years in New York City, Obama moved to Chicago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago) to work as a community organizer for three years from June 1985 to May 1988 as director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland (Roseland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseland%2C_Chicago), West Pullman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Pullman%2C_Chicago), and Riverdale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverdale%2C_Chicago)) on Chicago's far South Side (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Side_%28Chicago%29).

During his three years as the DCP's director, its staff grew from 1 to 13 and its annual budget grew from $70,000 to $400,000, with accomplishments including helping set up a job training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants' rights organization in Altgeld Gardens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altgeld_Gardens%2C_Chicago).Obama also worked as a consultant and instructor for the Gamaliel Foundation, a community organizing institute.

In mid-1988, he traveled for the first time to Europe for three weeks then Kenya for five weeks where he met many of his Kenyan relatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama_family) for the first time.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama#cite_note-14)
Obama entered Harvard Law School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Law_School) in late 1988 and at the end of his first year was selected as an editor of the Harvard Law Review (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Law_Review) based on his grades and a writing competition.

In his second year he was elected president of the Law Review, a full-time volunteer position functioning as editor-in-chief and supervising the law review's staff of 80 editors.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama#cite_note-Harvard_Law_1990-16) Obama's election in February 1990 as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review was widely reported and followed by several long, detailed profiles.

He graduated with a J.D. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor)magna cum laude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_honors) from Harvard in 1991 and returned to Chicago where he had worked as a summer associate at the law firms of Sidley & Austin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidley_Austin) in 1989 and Hopkins & Sutter in 1990.

I guess stupid people graduate at the top of their class from Harvard Law School :cwink:

And I guess also that Having a BA in Political sience with a concentration in IR is not a good background for someone to have in their education to be President.

[Hush]

Thats all nice and such but he has shown none of that "intelligence" you just posted in any of his campaign. I also think that both of these Campaigns are being run horribly.

[Superman]

America once was divided by two sides that didn't exactly love each other - and yet we came together. Will it be easy? No. But is it possible? Absolutely.:wow: This is a perfect example of how the Right really don't understand what is going on over there.:csad::whatever:

[Spider-Bite]

Obama is running a campaign based on hope instead of hatred for his opponent. It's a wonderful break from the past that canhelp uplift the spirits of Americans.

McCain is not doing that though, with blaming Obama for raising gas prices, which is ludricrous, and now politicizing the injured troops in Germany, which is downright low and shameful. I had hoped McCain would be different as Obama has been, because I had considered him such an honorable man, but he's turned out to be no different from the rest.

[The Overlord]

America once was divided by two sides that didn't exactly love each other - and yet we came together. Will it be easy? No. But is it possible? Absolutely.


What's it like living fantasy land? America's civil war was about economics ultimately, Iraq's civil war is about tribal tensions that have existed for thousands of years. Comparing the two is beyond ridiculous.

Again, you show your ignorance. Bush (of all people) recently talked about bringing home the troops quickly. We have been removing troops from Iraq for months.


Yes, everyone who disagrees with you you are ignorant. Comparing Iraq's civil war with America's is pretty damn ignorant, but you did it anyway.

Anyway, when exactly can the troops come home....


So when are all the troops coming home?
The GOP don't want to set a time table because is a stupid idea. Setting a time table does nothing but give the enemy a set of dates to wait for. By removing troops as necessary - you avoid that.


And when will it be necessary to remove troops, will it be after doomsday?


A pyrrhic victory is always preferred to a pyrrhic defeat.

There is no such thing as pyrrhic defeat and a pyrrhic victory is a bad thing, America lost more then it gained in Iraq, so the victory is ultimately irrelevant, the blood and treasure costs alone don't make it worth it and are leading top America's decline as a world power.

America ultimates loses, because spent too much on this damn thing in the first place, that's bad!



A bomb goes off in Israel - does that mean the government is falling apart?


That because Jews and Palestinians are separated, they aren't quite all stuck together like the factions in Iraq are and that place is still a god damn mess, would you move there?


No, actually in the Middle East its not all that uncommon.

Maybe because i heard last week about 75 people getting killed in Jordan, oh wait, I didn't.

Iraq makes other countries in that area look like club med and who's fault is that.

[Zen]

Thats all nice and such but he has shown none of that "intelligence" you just posted in any of his campaign. I also think that both of these Campaigns are being run horribly.

*whisper* subjective.


some might say is judgement about whether we should have gone in Iraq, his judgement on pakistan...was rather intelligent. and then when the US did what he suggested in pakistan and kill 2 high level al queada terrorists... i think his intelligence factor dropped in my book. and how unintelligent was it to ignore afganistan. ? Obama has had an unintelligent position on that for a while now.

also...

gas tax holiday
drilling for a short term benefit

couple intelligent policies Obama had the moronic sense to be against.

[Kelly]

The only reason at this point Obama has not hit a double digit lead in the tracking polls is becaise of the fact that 10-15% of Americans have a real problem with a person identified as a black being a President.

Do you have a source to back your 10 - 15% statement?


IMO, right now it comes down to a trust issue, and that is why the polls are still so close. They see Obama EVERYWHERE, but do they know enough about him to trust him and make a decision to vote for him? I think that is the question that many are asking right now. I do believe that race has to do with it to an extent, of course it does, but 10 to 15% of the people?

[Marx]

Do you have a source to back your 10 - 15% statement?

I would be curious to read about that too Kel.

[The Overlord]

The perception that many have of Bush now is irrelevent. The point remains that when he ran, he was not seen as an extremist.

That's because the GOP has changed the goal posts so much in the last 20 years, that extreme positions like believing the world is 5000 years old are considered mainstream, by objective standard Bush is an extremist and the GOP is the most extreme right wing party in the western World, barring small Neo Nazi parties of course.

Bush's perception now doesn't mean squat. He isn't running.
.
His legacy does, that's why McCain is an underdog.



No, the GOP isn't elitist. I don't consider the DNC elitist. I consider individuals elitist. Are there some Republican elitists? Yes. .

The fact is no matter who the dems picked, the GOP would have called that person a "liberal elitist". That's why its a BS argument, the GOP is just crying wolf too often.




Except that it is working, here. Thus Obama's small lead in spite of McCain's ineptness.

Well according the polls, the same polls that said Hilliary would have won. The polls have been wrong all along.

The trends are what matter, Obama has more money, a more popular party, more charisma, he's younger, more dynamic, his side has more momentum, lots of hardcore conservatives hate McCain, Obama's campaign is way better in general. That's way too many hurdles for McCain to overcome.

Even David Frum thinks the GOP brand has been tarinshed, Obama seems to have more new ideas than McCain, the GOP seems not to have any new ideas and are just running around in circles.

The whole party is stuck in the past, they are obsessed with Reagan and personally I don't care about Reagan, I was 8 when he left office, so I barely remember him, so does my generation, the one after it etc. It would like if the Dems talked about JFK all the time, people would think they are stuck in the past. Unless the GOP can come with ideas for idea, instead of trying to recyle Reagan all the time, they are screwed.




Not in politics.

Except things have changed, the GOP owe a lot of political capital after Bush and someone is going to have to pay the bill.



:dry:



Again - if that was really the case, Obama's lead would be much larger.


Again, how often have the polls been right in this election?



McCain is not bleeding.


Yes, he is, I heard about a rally McCain had in some small town and only 14 people showed up.


The :dry: was more about content than the literary device you used.

What because it was stupid metaphor? Your sports metaphor was stupid, I didn't complain.

[nathaniel]

The only reason at this point Obama has not hit a double digit lead in the tracking polls is becaise of the fact that 10-15% of Americans have a real problem with a person identified as a black being a President.

Matt and anyone else can call me racist but that is the reason he has not pulled away. I am not saying that this cannot be overcome but it is a barrier that he has to contend with.

Articulate Intellegent black men are often wrongly viewed as arrogant. How many times has Matt and others called Obama arrogant.

Obama has been characterized as having no background for being President and not extremely intelligent but I beg to differ.

Following high school, Obama moved to Los Angeles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles%2C_California), where he studied at Occidental College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occidental_College) for two years; he then transferred to Columbia University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_College_of_Columbia_University) in New York City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City), where he majored in political science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_science) with a specialization in international relations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_relations).[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama#cite_note-8) Obama graduated with a B.A. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Arts) from Columbia in 1983, then worked at Business International Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_International_Corporation) and New York Public Interest Research Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Public_Interest_Research_Group)

After four years in New York City, Obama moved to Chicago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago) to work as a community organizer for three years from June 1985 to May 1988 as director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland (Roseland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseland%2C_Chicago), West Pullman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Pullman%2C_Chicago), and Riverdale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverdale%2C_Chicago)) on Chicago's far South Side (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Side_%28Chicago%29).

During his three years as the DCP's director, its staff grew from 1 to 13 and its annual budget grew from $70,000 to $400,000, with accomplishments including helping set up a job training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants' rights organization in Altgeld Gardens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altgeld_Gardens%2C_Chicago).Obama also worked as a consultant and instructor for the Gamaliel Foundation, a community organizing institute.

In mid-1988, he traveled for the first time to Europe for three weeks then Kenya for five weeks where he met many of his Kenyan relatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama_family) for the first time.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama#cite_note-14)
Obama entered Harvard Law School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Law_School) in late 1988 and at the end of his first year was selected as an editor of the Harvard Law Review (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Law_Review) based on his grades and a writing competition.

In his second year he was elected president of the Law Review, a full-time volunteer position functioning as editor-in-chief and supervising the law review's staff of 80 editors.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama#cite_note-Harvard_Law_1990-16) Obama's election in February 1990 as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review was widely reported and followed by several long, detailed profiles.

He graduated with a J.D. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor)magna cum laude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_honors) from Harvard in 1991 and returned to Chicago where he had worked as a summer associate at the law firms of Sidley & Austin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidley_Austin) in 1989 and Hopkins & Sutter in 1990.

I guess stupid people graduate at the top of their class from Harvard Law School :cwink:

And I guess also that Having a BA in Political sience with a concentration in IR is not a good background for someone to have in their education to be President.

So true Obama is black and people still see it as a stumbling block for voting for him and yes some people see him and his wife as arrogant its a shame but a confident articulate black man still elicits these feelings. how many times have i heard people, mostly annomynus cowards on radio and online, call michelle "uppity" it is the hallmark of the white racist mindset that intelligent blacks are like this.:csad:

[Marx]

That's because the GOP has changed the goal posts so much in the last 20 years, that extreme positions like believing the world is 5000 years old are considered mainstream, by objective standard Bush is an extremist and the GOP is the most extreme right wing party in the western World, barring small Neo Nazi
parties of course.

The GOP has been hijacked by the extremes. At the core, it is not a bad party. Unfortunately, it has become a party run by the Religious Right and Neo-Conservatives who seek to push their own agenda.

I still maintain that Bush was not seen as an extremist when he ran. It is only now, at the end of his term, that people have formed the opinion that they have.

So true Obama is black and people still see it as a stumbling block for voting for him and yes some people see him and his wife as arrogant its a shame but a confident articulate black man still elicits these feelings. how many times have i heard people, mostly annomynus cowards on radio and online, call michelle "uppity" it is the hallmark of the white racist mindset that intelligent blacks are like this.:csad:

It is not racist to suggest that someone radiates arrogance.

Welcome to the boards Nathaniel!

[Kelly]

So true Obama is black and people still see it as a stumbling block for voting for him and yes some people see him and his wife as arrogant its a shame but a confident articulate black man still elicits these feelings. how many times have i heard people, mostly annomynus cowards on radio and online, call michelle "uppity" it is the hallmark of the white racist mindset that intelligent blacks are like this.

You talk as if the majority feel that way. I do in fact see him as elitist in his tact and speech. It has nothing to do with his race, it has everything to do with the words he chooses as he speaks to different groups.

[Spider-Bite]

:wow: This is a perfect example of how the Right really don't understand what is going on over there.:csad::whatever:

Very true!



America once was divided by two sides that didn't exactly love each other - and yet we came together. Will it be easy? No. But is it possible? Absolutely.



I am not going to lie and say your worries are completely baseless. I, like you, can only hope you are wrong.



:(

Here is the difference. We had a civil war. It ended when somebody won. No superior force came over and said "okay everybody stop fighting. Your gonna get along and pretend to like it"

If they had, the battle might still be going.

[Marx]

:wow: This is a perfect example of how the Right really don't understand what is going on over there.:csad::whatever:

I can assure you that Norm understands what is going on in Iraq Supe.

[Addendum]

What's it like living fantasy land? America's civil war was about economics ultimately, Iraq's civil war is about tribal tensions that have existed for thousands of years. Comparing the two is beyond ridiculous.

You're looking at this all wrong. Appoint this man

http://lauriekendrick.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/rodney_king.jpg

as the US Ambassador to Iraq. And then they'll have incense and peppermints

[Spider-Bite]

a month ago, 30% of americans admitted in a poll that they were racist. many racists will not openly admit that. obviously the real number is going to be much higher. it will not be the deciding factor in this race, but it will be a relevant and signifigant factor. many of the people not voting for him are voting against him because he is black. I'm not saying that's the only reason a person would have for not voting for him, but it is definitely be signifigant enough to make democrats worry.

[Kelly]

Very true!





Here is the difference. We had a civil war. It ended when somebody won. No superior force came over and said "okay everybody stop fighting. Your gonna get along and pretend to like it"

If they had, the battle might still be going.


It wasn't because they didn't want to. Not to stop the war but to simply gain from it. Napoleon watched this war very closely, but he ended up looking closer at Mexico. The British were interested because of the Textile industry, and became extremely upset when their ships were being stopped in the Atlantic.

[Marx]

a month ago, 30% of americans admitted in a poll that they were racist. many racists will not openly admit that. obviously the real number is going to be much higher. it will not be the deciding factor in this race, but it will be a relevant and signifigant factor. many of the people not voting for him are voting against him because he is black. I'm not saying that's the only reason a person would have for not voting for him, but it is definitely be signifigant enough to make democrats worry.

And again, with all due respect, I would like a source for that claim.

[The Overlord]

a month ago, 30% of americans admitted in a poll that they were racist. many racists will not openly admit that. obviously the real number is going to be much higher. it will not be the deciding factor in this race, but it will be a relevant and signifigant factor. many of the people not voting for him are voting against him because he is black. I'm not saying that's the only reason a person would have for not voting for him, but it is definitely be signifigant enough to make democrats worry.

Like most of those guys would Democrat anyway, the Dems will never get the red neck vote.

Oh no, I just made an elitist statement, woe is me.

[Kelly]

a month ago, 30% of americans admitted in a poll that they were racist. many racists will not openly admit that. obviously the real number is going to be much higher. it will not be the deciding factor in this race, but it will be a relevant and signifigant factor. many of the people not voting for him are voting against him because he is black. I'm not saying that's the only reason a person would have for not voting for him, but it is definitely be signifigant enough to make democrats worry.

The democrats are still more worried about Clintonites than Obama's race, because remember he is still the "presumptive democratic candidate". That gives them (DNC) the hibbie jibbies, far more than his race.

[Spider-Bite]

The democrats are still more worried about Clintonites than Obama's race, because remember he is still the "presumptive democratic candidate". That gives them (DNC) the hibbie jibbies, far more than his race.


yes but it's not that we are worried about clintonites who are mad that hillary didn't win. We are worried about Clintonites who chose Hillary because they didn't want a black president.

[Kelly]

yes but it's not that we are worried about clintonites who are mad that hillary didn't win. We are worried about Clintonites who chose Hillary because they didn't want a black president.


:whatever:

So will there be Watts riots if he loses?

[Marx]

The end of the Obama media affair?
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/07/28/moos.obama.break.up.cnn

[Spider-Bite]

And again, with all due respect, I would like a source for that claim.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/21/AR2008062101825.html?nav=rss_politics

[Spider-Bite]

:whatever:

So will there be Watts riots if he loses?

It probably depends on the popular vote. If he wins the popular vote but loses to McCain anyways, there probably will be protests, even though race obviously wouldn't have an effect in that situation, assuming that each state's electoral votes respected their state's popular vote.

[Tag279]

(CBS) As Barack Obama (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/22/politics/main3193625.shtml) claims the mantle of presumptive Democratic nominee, nearly 70 percent of Americans say the country is ready for a black president, a new CBS News poll shows.

Sixty-eight percent of Americans say the country is ready - up 6 points from March and 14 points from January. Eight years ago, only 38 percent of those polled said the country was ready for a black president.

Nearly two in three registered voters - 63 percent - say that most people they know would vote for a black president. But roughly one in four [25%]believe that most of the people they know would not.

Democrats (at 67 percent) are slightly more likely than Republicans (at 61 percent) to say most people they know would vote for a black candidate. Older Americans are less likely to respond that people they know would do so: Just 58 percent of those 65 and older say most of the people they know would vote for a black candidate. By contrast, 70 percent of respondents under 30 years old said those they know would do so.

Some of the largest differences are by region. Seventy-two percent of those who live in the West say most people they know would vote for a black person for president. Sixty-six percent in the Northeast and 64 percent in the Midwest agree. But the figure is lowest in the South, where just 54 percent say most people they know would vote for an African-American for president. 33 percent there say most people they know would not vote for an African American for President.


http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/May08b-RaceMain.pdf

[Marx]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/21/AR2008062101825.html?nav=rss_politics

From the article


At the same time, there is an overwhelming public openness to the idea of electing an African American to the presidency. In a Post-ABC News poll last month, nearly nine in 10 whites said they would be comfortable with a black president. While fewer whites, about two-thirds, said they would be "entirely comfortable" with it, that was more than double the percentage of all adults who said they would be so at ease with someone entering office for the first time at age 72, which McCain (R-Ariz.) would do should he prevail in November.

While a small aspect of the vote may be concerned with Obama's race, McCain's age is more of an issue.

[Excel]

This should be a blow out, yet its not.

Well, the same polls have him at 120 point electoral college victory, so...

[Matt]

Kaine 'very,very high' on VP shortlist
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/12115

If it happens, I called it last year when no one even thought Obama stood a chance. :up:

Kaine could be good. He is consistent with the message, has a decent record (though most of it is simply through riding Warner's coat tails) and could very well swing Virginia. However, he really doesn't add much to experience to the ticket (though I doubt it matters).

[rdh007]

Kaine and Bayh seem like safe, solid choices. Part of me wants to see him go Norm and pick Hagel, but I think Hagel's more likely to end up Sec-Def material with Biden as Sec-State as the proposal going into November.

[Tag279]

To make it more understandable

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/May08b-RaceMain.pdf

CBS NEWS POLL
For release: Wednesday June 4, 2008
6:30 PM EDT
BARACK OBAMA, RACE, AND THE 2008 ELECTION
May 30 - June 3, 2008
Barack Obama now has enough pledged delegates and superdelegate commitments to claim the Democratic nomination -- and most Americans believe the country is ready for a black president. Nearly as many say the people they know would be willing in principle to vote for one.
Nearly seven in 10 voters say America is ready – up 6 points from March and 14 points from January. Eight years ago, most Americans thought the country was not ready for a black president.
IS AMERICA READY FOR A BLACK PRESIDENT?
(Among registered voters)
Now 3/2008 1/2008 2/2000
Yes 68% 62% 54% 38%
No 23 30 31 53
White and black Americans agree that America is ready to elect a black president. Those in all incomes and education levels say that America is ready – though whites who make over $50,000 a year and who have higher levels of education are most likely to say so.
There is also general agreement between the parties: 62% of Republicans and 70% of Democrats say America is ready to elect an African-American. There is more doubt about this in the South than elsewhere in the country. 62% there say America is ready, but 30% say it is not.

Nearly two in three registered voters - 63% - say that most people they know would vote for a black president. That is higher than in March, but not much different from January. However, one in four voters – 26% -- believes that most of the people they know would NOT vote for a black candidate.
WOULD MOST PEOPLE YOU KNOW VOTE FOR A BLACK CANDIDATE?
(Among registered voters)
Now 3/2008 1/2008
Yes 63% 56% 65%
No 26 33 21
In fact, more than three in four voters say race is not a factor in determining their vote. About one in five says it is one factor among many, while only 2% say it is the most important factor. There is virtually no difference between black and white voters in this regard.
HOW MUCH OF A FACTOR IS RACE IN YOUR VOTE?
(Among registered voters)
Total Whites Blacks
Most important factor 2% 2% 3%
One of many factors 20 20 21
Not important 77 78 76
The quarter of white voters who say race is at least somewhat of a factor choose John McCain over Barack Obama by a margin of 19 points in a head-to-head match-up in November, while they are divided between Clinton and McCain. Voters who do not think race is a factor, as well as voters overall, are divided between McCain and either Obama or Clinton.
CHOICE FOR DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION
(Among white registered voters)
Total Race IS Race IS NOT
Voters a factor a factor
Obama 41% 37% 43%
McCain 48 56 46
Clinton 47% 47% 46%
McCain 45 48 44
Nine in 10 black voters choose Barack Obama over John McCain.
Regardless of how they vote, nine in 10 voters – both blacks and whites - are glad that an African American has been a serious contender for president, and nearly half say Obama’s candidacy has made them more interested in the 2008 Presidential campaign.
HAS OBAMA BEEN JUDGED DIFFERENTLY?
Voters are divided as to whether or not the news media have treated Obama differently – half say that they have while half say they have not.
But among those who think the media have treated Obama differently, whites tend to think the media has been easier on him because of his race, while blacks think the opposite.
COMPARED TO OTHER CANDIDATES, THE NEWS MEDIA TREATED OBAMA…?
(Among registered voters)
Now Whites Blacks
Harder on 21% 18% 35%
Easier on 24 27 8
The same 51 51 51
Slightly more think the media have been easier on him than harder – a turnaround from May when Obama was in the midst of responding to the controversy surrounding the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.
Most voters who think the media has been harder on Obama think this is at least somewhat because of his race. So do most voters who believe the media has been easier on him, though in smaller numbers.
HOW MUCH HAS THE MEDIA’S TREATMENT OF OBAMA
BEEN BECAUSE OF HIS RACE?
(Among registered voters)
Media has been Media has been
harder on Obama easier on Obama
A lot 38% 35%
Some 38 31
Not Much/at all 22 31
Nearly one in three voters think people they know have judged Obama more harshly because he is black, though most voters think he has not been treated differently. Blacks are more likely to think so than whites, and Democrats are more likely to think so than either Republicans or Independents.
HAVE PEOPLE YOU KNOW JUDGED OBAMA
MORE HARSHLY BECAUSE HE IS BLACK?
(Among registered voters)
Now 3/2008
More harshly 30% 28%
Less harshly 8 11
No difference 59 58
LOOKING AHEAD TO THE FUTURE
Nearly seven in 10 voters think that Barack Obama’s candidacy has made it easier for blacks to run for president in the future.
HAS OBAMA MADE IT EASIER FOR OTHER
BLACK CANDIDATES TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT?
(Among registered voters)
Made it easier 68%
Made it harder 5
No difference 24
This is true of both black and whites, and true regardless of whether or not voters have a favorable opinion of Senator Obama.
But more than half of all voters can’t name an African American they would like to see run for president other than Barack Obama – though former Secretary of State Colin Powell tops the list of those who can. Condoleezza Rice and the Rev. Jesse Jackson are a distant second and third. Powell is the top choice both among whites and blacks, as well as Republicans, Democrats, and Independents alike.
OTHER THAN OBAMA, WHAT AFRICAN AMERICAN
WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE RUN FOR PRESIDENT?
(Among registered voters)
Colin Powell 21%
Condoleezza Rice 6
Jesse Jackson 2
Can’t name anyone 54
Voters are divided as to whether or not currently there are enough African Americans holding high political office. About four in 10 say the number is about right, while another four in 10 think there should be more. Black voters in particular think there should be more.
NUMBER OF AFRICAN AMERICANS HOLDING POLITICAL OFFICE
(Among registered voters)
Total Whites Blacks
About right 42% 45% 19%
Would like more 39 35 71
Would like fewer 2 2 0
__________________________________________________ ___________________
This poll was conducted among a random sample of 1,038 adults nationwide, including 930 registered voters, interviewed by telephone May 30-June 3, 2008. Phone numbers were dialed from RDD samples of both standard land-lines and cell phones. The error due to sampling for results based on the entire sample could be plus or minus four percentage points. The error for subgroups is higher. The error for the sample of registered voters is plus or minus four points.

[Matt]

The only reason at this point Obama has not hit a double digit lead in the tracking polls is becaise of the fact that 10-15% of Americans have a real problem with a person identified as a black being a President.

Matt and anyone else can call me racist but that is the reason he has not pulled away. I am not saying that this cannot be overcome but it is a barrier that he has to contend with.

Articulate Intellegent black men are often wrongly viewed as arrogant. How many times has Matt and others called Obama arrogant.


I strongly suggest you read the announcement at the top of the page before you accuse anyone else of considering Obama as arrogant simply because he is smart and black. You can get away with doing it to me because I'm a mod, gotta be above that kinda stuff (or so I'm told), but the next time I see you accuse another poster of being racist (one of the worst things you can call someone), whether you do it overtly or covertly (Translation, the little "I implied, not said, schpiel won't work anymore) when they have never shown any indication of such, you will be banned.

[Tag279]

This is not up for debate, Tag. Keep it up and I will bounce your ass tonight.

[Marx]

If it happens, I called it last year when no one even thought Obama stood a chance. :up:

Kaine could be good. He is consistent with the message, has a decent record (though most of it is simply through riding Warner's coat tails) and could very well swing Virginia. However, he really doesn't add much to experience to the ticket (though I doubt it matters).

You would think that he would want someone that could balance out the "experience" argument though. You know?

Kaine and Bayh seem like safe, solid choices. Part of me wants to see him go Norm and pick Hagel, but I think Hagel's more likely to end up Sec-Def material with Biden as Sec-State as the proposal going into November.

Go Norm huh? :oldrazz:

[Marx]

So how about those political campaigns? :cwink:

[Addendum]

Go Norm huh? :oldrazz:

http://www.cheers-becker.de/c_norm_04.JPG

[rdh007]

Go Norm huh? :oldrazz:

That is not an endorsement. Though they do say that once you go Norm, you never...conform?

[Tag279]

Matt what personal problem do you have with me? I have never called you stupid, or childish or even insinuated such.

Yes I disagree with you politically but I do not attack you as a person.

My attack was to head off the attacks that you commonly use against me.

[Matt]

YOu just accused me of being racist, put two and two together. Again, this is not up for discussion. If I see one more post from you in this thread that is anything but 100 % on topic, you will be banned.

[Matt]

YOu just accused me of being racist, put two and two together. Again, this is not up for discussion. If I see one more post from you in this thread that is anything but 100 % on topic, you will be banned.

[Marx]

That is not an endorsement. Though they do say that once you go Norm, you never...conform?

I didn't say that it was...but Candidate Norman and I would sincerely welcome one, if you felt so inclined. :cwink:

[nathaniel]

You talk as if the majority feel that way. I do in fact see him as elitist in his tact and speech. It has nothing to do with his race, it has everything to do with the words he chooses as he speaks to different groups.

Of course not but when you hear former Clintonsupporters actually entertaining the notion of voting for Mccain over Obama you have to wonder what mindset they have...

[Matt]

No you don't. You can't judge a person's reason for voting. Maybe the Clinton supporter agrees with McCain more than Obama. Maybe the Clinton supporter feel they know McCain better than Obama, maybe they like his personality more, his experience more, whatever. Maybe they are voting out of spite for Clinton's loss. Maybe it is simply a protest vote (Obama's loss means Clinton has another shot). Who are we to judge whatever reason they are voting for?

[Excel]

Who are we to judge whatever reason they are voting for?


:dry:

Look whose talking.

[Tag279]

Of course not but when you hear former Clintonsupporters actually entertaining the notion of voting for Mccain over Obama you have to wonder what mindset they have...

The number of Clinton supporters that said that they would vote for McCain if Hill didn't get the nod has decreased greatly. On MSNBC one of the commentators said that that percentage had decreased to 10% or less.

The people that truly meant that they would vote for McCain instead of Obama were not going to vote for Obama in the first place.

McCaian has attempted to make a play for the projected 35% of Clintonians that said that they would vote for McCain to no avail it looks like he getting very little.

I think the disgruntled Hill voters are more likely to stay home than vote for McCain.

[Zen]

:dry:

Look whose talking.

:hehe:

[Excel]

Sorry Matt, I dont usually like to get involved in other peopls stuff but c'mon, you gotta practice what you preach. You've mocked my reasons-one reason in particular- for voting for Obama dozens of times here on these boards.

[nathaniel]

No you don't. You can't judge a person's reason for voting. Maybe the Clinton supporter agrees with McCain more than Obama. Maybe the Clinton supporter feel they know McCain better than Obama, maybe they like his personality more, his experience more, whatever. Maybe they are voting out of spite for Clinton's loss. Maybe it is simply a protest vote (Obama's loss means Clinton has another shot). Who are we to judge whatever reason they are voting for?

In complete theory maybe but in harsh reality No its because he is black i cant beleive they would change thier political ideals just for a sore loss Politics is like your favourute football team whoever the manager is you will support them. I dont know your political stance so ill assume your a republican would you ever really vote democrat? and vice versa if your a democrat.:woot:

[kainedamo]

Kaine is very, very high on the VP list

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/12115.html

[StorminNorman]

:wow: This is a perfect example of how the Right really don't understand what is going on over there.:csad::whatever:

:whatever:

So you are saying there is no way two tribes could ever live peacefully together?

You want other examples? Blacks and whites, two groups of people separated by unchangeable circumstances who spent centuries opposed to each other. There wasn't frequent violence as is the case between these tribes, but that is only because whites were superior technologically in every way.

Over time, however, tensions between the two (while not completely wiped away) have subsided enough that the two races coexist peacefully, begrudgingly or otherwise.

We are starting to see that in Iraq - and it is why the Iraqi Government IS working.

What's it like living fantasy land? America's civil war was about economics ultimately, Iraq's civil war is about tribal tensions that have existed for thousands of years. Comparing the two is beyond ridiculous.

Economics, livelihood, cultural differences, etc.

No it is not ridiculous. While they are not mirror images, the point is the same - no matter the bad blood, if posed with the same goal (in both cases - strengthening a nation) people who have a long history of hate can come together.


Yes, everyone who disagrees with you you are ignorant. Comparing Iraq's civil war with America's is pretty damn ignorant, but you did it anyway.

No, not everyone who disagrees with me are ignorant. Mr Sparkle, Jman, Marx, etc. I disagree with them in many ways politically - but they know what they are talking about and are able to debate intelligently. You are not them, however, and you prove it with every post.

Anyway, when exactly can the troops come home....

When we can leave without Iraq falling apart.

There is no such thing as pyrrhic defeat and a pyrrhic victory is a bad thing, America lost more then it gained in Iraq, so the victory is ultimately irrelevant, the blood and treasure costs alone don't make it worth it and are leading top America's decline as a world power.

Iraq has not made America declined in world power at all. I think there is an argument to be made about America losing more than it gained in Iraq, however if you think that we lose no more by losing in Iraq at this point - your insane. If we leave Iraq and it is overtaken by Islamic Extremist the likes of Saddam, then yes - we are in a far worse situation than us being victorious.

That because Jews and Palestinians are separated, they aren't quite all stuck together like the factions in Iraq are and that place is still a god damn mess, would you move there?

Would I move to Israel? Given the chance, yea - probably.

Iraq makes other countries in that area look like club med and who's fault is that.

Al Queda.

[Addendum]

And Al-Qaeda came to Iraq after the US invaded

[StorminNorman]

And Al-Qaeda came to Iraq after the US invaded

Yes, but that doesn't in any way remove them for being the cause of the violence in Iraq.