The Obama Thread (Merged x6)

[raybia]

You know thats not right. If their country didnt have those problems than their citizens would not risk life and limb to get here. Yes I have been to Mexico, and yes I know Mexicans but that doesent matter. I am well aware of the US goverments corrupt actions but, two wrongs dont make a right. Thats my whole point. Their country is oppressing them not us. I dont see what's so brave about protesting in American streets for things you are not legally entitled to. If they did that in their own county they would be gunned down.

The Mexican people need to stop abandoning their country and stand up to their goverment. To compare the "undocumented workers" plight to the Civil Rights Movement is an insult. With that said I am glad that we are able to provide people with jobs, and a chance at a better life. But im tired of liberals acting like America is obligated to do that.

First you say that the Mexican people would be gunned down by their Government if they protested then you say they should stand up to their Government. :huh:

So in other words you are saying they should commit suicide instead of immigrating to a country where they can have a life of freedom and potential prosperity.

[jaguarr]

I'm sorry jag. You're my main man but I have to disagree with you on this one.

Rudy is not one of these "beautiful people."

Rudy's got the whole "I'm America's Mayor/King of 9/11" thing going on and that puts him in the political cult of celebrity right there amongst the "beautiful" people as far as the media is concerned.

jag

[jaguarr]

BECAUSE HE'S BLACK

:eek:

DEEMAR!!!! Where the hell have you been, young man?! Your mother has been worried SICK! :cmad:

jag

[raybia]

Rudy's got the whole "I'm America's Mayor/King of 9/11" thing going on and that puts him in the political cult of celebrity right there amongst the "beautiful" people as far as the media is concerned.

jag

Ok, if that's the way you define "beautiful" then I agree with you. :cwink:

But one of these days I going to find something to disagree with you about. Mark my words! :cmad:

[jaguarr]

Ok, if that's the way you define "beautiful" then I agree with you. :cwink:

But one of these days I going to find something to disagree with you about. Mark my words! :cmad:

In other news, Mitt Romney's hair is a sentient entity and is planning a hostile attack on Giuliani's bald scalp. Just you watch.

jag

[deemar325]

:eek:

DEEMAR!!!! Where the hell have you been, young man?! Your mother has been worried SICK! :cmad:

jag


Sup Jag

Been focusing on my family, I've been lacking in that department.

But! I'm back for a while at least.

[jaguarr]

Sup Jag

Been focusing on my family, I've been lacking in that department.

But! I'm back for a while at least.

Alright, I'ma let you slide in that case. Any other answer would have resulted in a beating with a bag of oranges. Welcome home. :up:

jag

[raybia]

Sup Jag

Been focusing on my family, I've been lacking in that department.

But! I'm back for a while at least.

You have to know how to put your foot down man.

I told my ex-wife that I have to devote my time to the Hype whether she likes it or not.

[deemar325]

Alright, I'ma let you slide in that case. Any other answer would have resulted in a beating with a bag of oranges. Welcome home. :up:

jag

I prefer bags of apples, yum!

[deemar325]

You have to know how to put your foot down man.

I told my ex-wife that I have to devote my time to the Hype whether she likes it or not.

Man look my wife gave me a ultimatum, spend less time online or less time in them guts.








I like poo nana

Internet lost so sue me

[Matt]

Lets examine our past few presidents.

BUSH-old white guy who lied to us and made the US, White House, and Presidential job look like a joke.

CLINTON-old white guy who famously lied to us and made the U.S., White House, and Presidential Job looks like a joke.

BUSH- old white guy

REAGAN: old white guy who, while extremely popular than, hes become some what of a joke as a president since

CARTER: old white guy

FORD: old white guy

NIXON: old white guy

Clinton had charisma but it was different than Obamas. Obamas is serious but hopeful; Bill was more charming/sleazy.

It aint just charisma, Obama comes off very idealistic and DIFFERENT and thats whatr people want, somethign different. It isnt just what he says and it has nothing to do with his track record; hes a YOUNG BLACK GUY.

Hes the definition of DIFFERENT when it comes the president and the candidates, that is how he is so instantly popular.

So COSMETIC change simply for the sake of change is why you support him?

At least Deemar was honest and said its because he's black instead of saying as much while using a bunch of words like "different" to hide it.

[raybia]

Man look my wife gave me a ultimatum, spend less time online or less time in them guts.








I like poo nana

Internet lost so sue me

http://www.countrychoicenaturals.com/images/pages/products/recipes/bananapudding.jpg

Yeah I like it too. :csad:

[Matt]

http://www.countrychoicenaturals.com/images/pages/products/recipes/bananapudding.jpg

Yeah I like it too. :csad:

Now I really want some banana pudding :csad:

[deemar325]

I'm down for Obama, because I feel his politics will benefit me. Plain and simple, its moving the old guard out and ushering in new fresh blood.

And he's BLACK.

[deemar325]

http://www.countrychoicenaturals.com/images/pages/products/recipes/bananapudding.jpg

Yeah I like it too. :csad:

Pudding POP!

Doohh!

[Abaddon]

[QUOTE=Excel;13564105]
Clinton had charisma but it was different than Obamas. Obamas is serious but hopeful; Bill was more charming/sleazy.
You can't be charming and sleazy.:o
You're impression of Clinton is tainted by the sex scandal.

[Excel]

So COSMETIC change simply for the sake of change is why you support him?

At least Deemar was honest and said its because he's black instead of saying as much while using a bunch of words like "different" to hide it.

i didnt say that why i liked him; thats why most do.

[Matt]

i didnt say that why i liked him; thats why most do.

Why do YOU like him?

[deemar325]

[QUOTE=Excel;13564105]
Clinton had charisma but it was different than Obamas. Obamas is serious but hopeful; Bill was more charming/sleazy.
You can't be charming and sleazy.:o
You're impression of Clinton is tainted by the sex scandal.



Yeah you can

Snoop Dogg

Bill Maher

Bill Murray (His character at least)

[raybia]

Why do YOU like him?

Matt, I know you wouldn't vote for anyone just because of their race but would it take for you to vote for a black presidential candidate?

[Abaddon]

[QUOTE=Abaddon;13565026]



Yeah you can

Snoop Dogg

Bill Maher

Bill Murray (His character at least)

I don't find any of them particularly charming.:o

[deemar325]

[QUOTE=deemar325;13565087]

I don't find any of them particularly charming.:o

Your in the minority

[Excel]

Why do YOU like him?

Theres political frontrunner for me and the only person I know who I honestly think we would be the best guy for the kjob cant even run (Scwarzenegger) because hes a liberal republican; hes not too much of either which is exactly what we need-someone everybody can like, not half love and half hate.

BUT Obama will always have my vote because hes black and being black I wanna see a black president. I wish it were colin powell, but I wanna see a black man in Washington. THAT is progress, THAT is historical news.

but when it comes to issues; he still wins me over. Hes the only one who honestly seems to still be out of the political agenda; he talks like he personally has dreams to acomplish and their helping us, not winning elections. Hilarys in to win she said it herself, but I feel he is in it to help.

Its people like Obama who got us to the moon, who got the trains across the country, freed the slaves, and all that other historical ****. People who actually try and make a difference and advance and guide our country forward into the future.

I dont look at it like you do, examining all their views on current issues n **** cause the fact is while hes president there will be different and more important issues; bigger ones that have bigger effects and i want someone who i can trust to be thinking of me and how ill be affected rather than how business's or wars will be affected.

If Obama won and came out and said hed be transporting all war money to the "man on mars" fund, you guys would be the kind to freak out because of wehat it could be going to, how its some needleess cause and waste of money; but fact would be that would be actually advancing mankind far more than any other cause could.

A odd but imo accurate comparison for my view of the presedency is like most music albums nowadays. 3 quarters of all the tracks are filler but there are some are just awesome; that you listen to over and over again.

I dont want a filler president who just sits in the office for years, not really hurting or helping us or "helping" us by not ****ing up badly. And we've had filler president every year ever since JFK died, and god damnitt every candidate in this election just screams FILLER except for Barrack.

And thats from someone who honestly doesnt give a **** bout politics; if he aint the nominee I wont even vote because i wont help somebody who will suck get into office.

[Sincere]

First you say that the Mexican people would be gunned down by their Government if they protested then you say they should stand up to their Government. :huh:

So in other words you are saying they should commit suicide instead of immigrating to a country where they can have a life of freedom and potential prosperity.

Civil Rights activist faced beatings, water hosings, church bombings, lynchings, and all out terrorism. Im asking the Mexican people to get some balls, and stop running away from their country. It isnt right for them to come over and take jobs from American citizens. I know most of you are sheltered suburban liberals and you dont know any better. But Americans are losing their jobs and that isnt right.

[Abaddon]

But if he wins, and he sucks then wouldn't that just be an embarrassment for the black community?

[deemar325]

But if he wins, and he sucks then wouldn't that just be an embarrassment for the black community?


Not really, he'd just be a sh**ty Prez, but realistically alot of white folk will judge his performance and actions as all blacks, its the same old story. One brotha do something messed up we all the same in their eyes.

[Excel]

i know right? why aint bush making it rough for white folk get elected?

[Abaddon]

I say it in terms of people just voting for him because he's black. I mean it's pointless if he isn't well-qualified.

[raybia]

Civil Rights activist faced beatings, water hosings, church bombings, lynchings, and all out terrorism. Im asking the Mexican people to get some balls, and stop running away from their country. It isnt right for them to come over and take jobs from American citizens. I know most of you are sheltered suburban liberals and you dont know any better. But Americans are losing their jobs and that isnt right.

Americans are losing jobs to illegal immigrants from Mexico?

Please name the specific type and the approximate number of jobs that they are taking from us.

[deemar325]

I say it in terms of people just voting for him because he's black. I mean it's pointless if he isn't well-qualified.

C'mon man, people gonna take pride and special interest in their own. I'm willing to put money on all the Irish men who voted for Kennedy just because of his being Irish also.

Now for me, I've voted for white presidential canidates everytime and no one made me feel strange about that. I want to see a brother in the White House it might not change a damn thing or it actually might, but regardless I'd like to see it.

[Abaddon]

Civil Rights activist faced beatings, water hosings, church bombings, lynchings, and all out terrorism. Im asking the Mexican people to get some balls, and stop running away from their country. It isnt right for them to come over and take jobs from American citizens. I know most of you are sheltered suburban liberals and you dont know any better. But Americans are losing their jobs and that isnt right.

lol, they get jobs nobody else wants. You make it sound like they're running around as brokers, and real estate agents.:o

[Abaddon]

C'mon man, people gonna take pride and special interest in their own. I'm willing to put money on all the Irish men who voted for Kennedy just because of his being Irish also.

Now for me, I've voted for white presidential canidates everytime and no one made me feel strange about that. I want to see a brother in the White House it might not change a damn thing or it actually might, but regardless I'd like to see it.

Yeah, and people tend to vote for those who share their religious views. I get it, but you have to be willing to take the good with the bad and understand the consequence of making superficial decisions.

[raybia]

C'mon man, people gonna take pride and special interest in their own. I'm willing to put money on all the Irish men who voted for Kennedy just because of his being Irish also.

Now for me, I've voted for white presidential canidates everytime and no one made me feel strange about that. I want to see a brother in the White House it might not change a damn thing or it actually might, but regardless I'd like to see it.

You know, if I'm honest with myself I also want to see a black president. Think of the message that it would send to the world.

On one hand we say we are the most advance and civilized country on Earth and we have this idealist form of Government yet we lag behind is demonstrating we are a land that is progressive.

This is the 21st century but the U.S. has yet to have anything other than old rich men as President.

Wait I forgot about JFK, a young rich man, my bad.

[deemar325]

lol, they get jobs nobody else wants. You make it sound like they're running around as brokers, and real estate agents.:o

That's cold man, look I got some issues with illegals but I understand why they come over heres and respect them for the struggles they go through to get here.

Any man who would travel thousands of miles for work gets my respect.

[Abaddon]

young rich Catholic. and look how he turned out.:o

[raybia]

Yeah, and people tend to vote for those who share their religious views. I get it, but you have to be willing to take the good with the bad and understand the consequence of making superficial decisions.

I'm willing. Its not like every president that we every had wasn't elected due to superficial reasons so why not do it for a black man.

Also we aren't just picking some black guy off the street. Its Obama we are suggesting for office; not 50 cent.

[deemar325]

You know, if I'm honest with myself I also want to see a black president. Think of the message that it would send to the world.

On one hand we say we are the most advance and civilized country on Earth and we have this idealist form of Government yet we lag behind is demonstrating we are a land that is progressive.

This is the 21st century but the U.S. has yet to have anything other than old rich men as President.

Wait I forgot about JFK, a young rich man, my bad.


Yeah funny how that works.

Well in 20-30yrs a good chunk of American will be a brown hue so...

[raybia]

young rich Catholic. and look how he turned out.:o

They killed him. Probably the fate of the first black president. :csad:

[deemar325]

I'm willing. Its not like every president that we every had wasn't elected due to superficial reasons so why not do it for a black man.

Also we aren't just picking some black guy off the street. Its Obama we are suggesting for office; not 50 cent.

Thank you

[Matt]

Matt, I know you wouldn't vote for anyone just because of their race but would it take for you to vote for a black presidential candidate?

They'd simply have to be the best candidate. I have reviewed practically every candidate in this election with a fine toothed comb. I simply do not find Obama to be the best choice. He lacks all form of qualification and he takes no real stance on issues and only seems to pander to the masses by saying generalized ideas while giving no real insight on how to carry out his ideas (most of which are grossly unrealistic). I have found that Bill Richardson is the best choice for the presidency of these United States at the current time and that is why I will vote for him. He is Hispanic, is that why I am voting for him? No. I am voting for him because he is the best choice. The same would have to hold true for an African American candidate for them to get my vote. To this point there has not been a black candidate who has been the best choice for President. Right now, one African American politican I have been keeping an eye on is the new Governor of Massachusetts, Deval Patrick. I like his policy stances. Now how he does as governor of Mass. will determine whether or not I would be interested in seeing him as President, but he has definitely piqued my interest.

[Mr Sparkle]

Civil Rights activist faced beatings, water hosings, church bombings, lynchings, and all out terrorism. Im asking the Mexican people to get some balls, and stop running away from their country. It isnt right for them to come over and take jobs from American citizens. I know most of you are sheltered suburban liberals and you dont know any better. But Americans are losing their jobs and that isnt right.

:huh: you're kind of being a big hypocrite.
first of all, maybe you should grow some balls and start working harder so they don't give your job to some Mexican.
second, they're not taking jobs, it's not like you go to the restroom come back and there's a Mexican sitting on your chair, give me a break :whatever:.
the people that leave Mexico don't so so because of the corruption, they leave because it's a third world country where they get 1/10 what they get for doing the same job twice as hard.
there's little to no problem for Mexicans to protest as you should know if you knew anything about Mexico and had all those imaginary Mexican friends you keep saying you have.
you should ask them about the recent election and the continuous and sometimes obnoxious protests that some people launched against the government.
you should ask them about the people that have marched through the Main streets of Mexico demanding this or that, or the people that took the Mexico City University campus for almost a year.
all in protest, you don't fix a country by protesting, or else the US wouldn't be in Iraq would it?
don't be dumb it has nothing to do with being a "sheltered liberal" and everything to do with at least having passing knowledge of whatever it is you happen to be talking about.

[Mr Sparkle]

Yeah funny how that works.

Well in 20-30yrs a good chunk of American will be a brown hue so...


ahahahaha! how about you guys pick a good President, regardless of the color.
I like this Obama dude, he has Charisma.
is he the best? nope, could he be great? yeah.

[raybia]

They'd simply have to be the best candidate. I have reviewed practically every candidate in this election with a fine toothed comb. I simply do not find Obama to be the best choice. He lacks all form of qualification and he takes no real stance on issues and only seems to pander to the masses by saying generalized ideas while giving no real insight on how to carry out his ideas (most of which are grossly unrealistic). I have found that Bill Richardson is the best choice for the presidency of these United States at the current time and that is why I will vote for him. He is Hispanic, is that why I am voting for him? No. I am voting for him because he is the best choice. The same would have to hold true for an African American candidate for them to get my vote. To this point there has not been a black candidate who has been the best choice for President. Right now, one African American politican I have been keeping an eye on is the new Governor of Massachusetts, Deval Patrick. I like his policy stances. Now how he does as governor of Mass. will determine whether or not I would be interested in seeing him as President, but he has definitely piqued my interest.

I like him already.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deval_Patrick

[raybia]

ahahahaha! how about you guys pick a good President, regardless of the color.
I like this Obama dude, he has Charisma.
is he the best? nope, could he be great? yeah.

I haven't made up my mind yet. My conscious wouldn't allow me to vote for Obama merely because he's black but I'm not convinced about the "he has no experience" argument. I'm sure there we elected President's to where that argument could have been used.

George W. Bush's experience should have been the reason why he shouldn't have been elected.

[Matt]

I like him already.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deval_Patrick

I do aswell. A lot of his beliefs seem to be in sync with my own. I'm curious to see how he does as governor of massachusetts, but I am definitely interested in seeing where his career goes.

[raybia]

I do aswell. A lot of his beliefs seem to be in sync with my own. I'm curious to see how he does as governor of massachusetts, but I am definitely interested in seeing where his career goes.

edit

[raybia]

I do aswell. A lot of his beliefs seem to be in sync with my own. I'm curious to see how he does as governor of massachusetts, but I am definitely interested in seeing where his career goes.

I take it he has presidential expectations but does he have the right people behind him to make it possible?

[Matt]

I take it he has presidential expectations but does he have the right people behind him to make it possible?

Bit too soon to say on either account. More will be clear after we see where the 2008 election goes. Afterall, his governor seat is his first foray into politics (outside of some work for the Clinton administration).

[jaguarr]

Civil Rights activist faced beatings, water hosings, church bombings, lynchings, and all out terrorism. Im asking the Mexican people to get some balls, and stop running away from their country. It isnt right for them to come over and take jobs from American citizens. I know most of you are sheltered suburban liberals and you dont know any better. But Americans are losing their jobs and that isnt right.

Americans are losing their jobs to brown skinned people alright. But those people live in India and China. Try again.

jag

[hippie_hunter]

BUT Obama will always have my vote because hes black and being black I wanna see a black president. I wish it were colin powell, but I wanna see a black man in Washington. THAT is progress, THAT is historical news.
It would be great to see a minority in Washington but race should have absolutely no factor in the race. The best person should get the job regardless of sex or race.

but when it comes to issues; he still wins me over. Hes the only one who honestly seems to still be out of the political agenda; he talks like he personally has dreams to acomplish and their helping us, not winning elections. Hilarys in to win she said it herself, but I feel he is in it to help.
How so? Sure he has ideals, but how is he going to impliment them. Universal health care. Biofuels. Ending the Iraq War. Ending the genocide in Darfur. And everything else he says look great on paper. But how is he going to impliment them?

Although I do agree with you that he comes off as a person who's in it to make a good difference. But good intentions aren't enough.

Its people like Obama who got us to the moon, who got the trains across the country, freed the slaves, and all that other historical ****. People who actually try and make a difference and advance and guide our country forward into the future.
People like Obama are not what got us to the Moon, got trains across the country, and freed the slaves. That was done by people who took action. Obama really hasn't done enough action to make him on par with Abraham Lincoln and the Abolitionists, Lyndon B. Johnson who milked Kennedy's death to get things done, or the robber barrons.

Obama is more on par with Kennedy right now. An idealist. That's it. But he isn't like Lincoln, Johnson, Washington, Jefferson, or Roosevelt.

I dont look at it like you do, examining all their views on current issues n **** cause the fact is while hes president there will be different and more important issues; bigger ones that have bigger effects and i want someone who i can trust to be thinking of me and how ill be affected rather than how business's or wars will be affected.

If Obama won and came out and said hed be transporting all war money to the "man on mars" fund, you guys would be the kind to freak out because of wehat it could be going to, how its some needleess cause and waste of money; but fact would be that would be actually advancing mankind far more than any other cause could.
Yeah, you keep thinking that. I guarantee with someone like Obama and the vast majority of candidates out there things will still be the same old, same old.

A odd but imo accurate comparison for my view of the presedency is like most music albums nowadays. 3 quarters of all the tracks are filler but there are some are just awesome; that you listen to over and over again.

I dont want a filler president who just sits in the office for years, not really hurting or helping us or "helping" us by not ****ing up badly. And we've had filler president every year ever since JFK died, and god damnitt every candidate in this election just screams FILLER except for Barrack.
JFK wasn't that great of a President to begin with. Like Obama, he was more of an idealist. He couldn't get much done with because of a Republican Congress that didn't want to work with him. And common sense prevailed in the Cuban Missile Crisis. I bet that if George W. Bush were in office we'd have the same outcome.

The reason why we were able to have things such as going to the Moon, and fighting poverty and what not was because Johnson was excellent in milking Kennedy's death.

And thats from someone who honestly doesnt give a **** bout politics; if he aint the nominee I wont even vote because i wont help somebody who will suck get into office.
I find candidates such as Ron Paul, Bill Richardson, Joe Biden, and Mike Huckabee to be better than Obama.

[bored]

Keyes is a prick. Fittingly, Obama beat him for his Senate seat.

[Varient]

A lot of those Hispanics also resent the hell out of those white Americans that stereotype them for their race, and a lot of those white Americans that do that are a-holes with House and Senate seats, unfortunately.

jag

(smirk)

It's so refreshing to read some other group getting upset about poor treatment and stereotyping,.... I know I should join in,.. but I'm enjoying the caterwauling fine fm the sidelines just a lil too much,.....

(Chuckle)

[Varient]

Funny how "experience" gets air time when more than a few GOOD Presidents stepped into office with less of it.

Gee,.. I didn't Know George Washington even ran a company let alone a country prior to his election,... from what I understood,.. he ran a plantation.

Tsk.

You guys that REALLY believe in an age of Carter, Reagan, Clinton and Bush, (Peanut farmer, Movie Star, Womanizing Stereotyped politician, and Harvard C student.), that OBAMA MUST have some predetermined amount of "experience" before becoming president?

TSK.

[Darthphere]

Gee,.. I didn't Know George Washington even ran a company let alone a country prior to his election,... from what I understood,.. he ran a plantation.

Yes, lets forget that whole thing called the Revolutionary War.:huh:

[Matt]

Funny how "experience" gets air time when more than a few GOOD Presidents stepped into office with less of it.

Gee,.. I didn't Know George Washington even ran a company let alone a country prior to his election,... from what I understood,.. he ran a plantation.

Tsk.


You're comparing modern politics to a time when the President did next to nothing. George Washington would have tea with ANYONE who came to see him who was "dressed properly". His biggest task in office was to put down the Whiskey Rebellion, at which point he personally led the troops into the battle. See, in Washington's day...the office of President was pretty much the office of a glorified military general, which made Washington the perfect choice. The duties of the President really did not start to expand until after the Civl War. The Civil War did a lot of things, including pretty much killing federalism. That is when the office really became prominent.

And just for the record, at the time plantations were practically as large as and functioned as towns. Not to mention the biggest business in the US, so he was essentially a CEO and a mayor.


You guys that REALLY believe in an age of Carter, Reagan, Clinton and Bush, (Peanut farmer, Movie Star, Womanizing Stereotyped politician, and Harvard C student.), that OBAMA MUST have some predetermined amount of "experience" before becoming president?

TSK.

Peanut farmer who was the governor of Georgia, movie star who was the Governor of California, womanizing stereotyped politican who was the governor of Arknasas, and Harvard C student who was the governor of Texas. Way to try and generalize while ignoring facts and making a fool of yourself. :up:

No, there isn't some pre-determined ammount of experience, but I would certainly think better of trying to put a man with practically NO experience in National politics into the White House. Do you think foreign diplomats are going to take him seriously? Hell no, they will walk all over him. Do you think Congress will take him seriously? Again, they will walk all over him. He will become Nancy Pelosi's puppet leader. The man will be commander-in-chief of our military in a time of war with absolutely no experience. Whether or not you like the war (and I sure as hell don't), it is there and Obama really doesn't inspire me as Commander-in-Chief.

Experience is not a bad word as you try and make it out to be and I think the President should have a little more than 3 years in Congress, one of which he has missed over 85 % of his votes to campaign to be President.

[Matt]

It would be great to see a minority in Washington but race should have absolutely no factor in the race. The best person should get the job regardless of sex or race.


How so? Sure he has ideals, but how is he going to impliment them. Universal health care. Biofuels. Ending the Iraq War. Ending the genocide in Darfur. And everything else he says look great on paper. But how is he going to impliment them?

Although I do agree with you that he comes off as a person who's in it to make a good difference. But good intentions aren't enough.


People like Obama are not what got us to the Moon, got trains across the country, and freed the slaves. That was done by people who took action. Obama really hasn't done enough action to make him on par with Abraham Lincoln and the Abolitionists, Lyndon B. Johnson who milked Kennedy's death to get things done, or the robber barrons.

Obama is more on par with Kennedy right now. An idealist. That's it. But he isn't like Lincoln, Johnson, Washington, Jefferson, or Roosevelt.


Yeah, you keep thinking that. I guarantee with someone like Obama and the vast majority of candidates out there things will still be the same old, same old.


JFK wasn't that great of a President to begin with. Like Obama, he was more of an idealist. He couldn't get much done with because of a Republican Congress that didn't want to work with him. And common sense prevailed in the Cuban Missile Crisis. I bet that if George W. Bush were in office we'd have the same outcome.

The reason why we were able to have things such as going to the Moon, and fighting poverty and what not was because Johnson was excellent in milking Kennedy's death.


I find candidates such as Ron Paul, Bill Richardson, Joe Biden, and Mike Huckabee to be better than Obama.

If you ever come to my bar, you drink for free. Simply for that post alone :up:

[Varient]

You're comparing modern politics to a time when the President did next to nothing. George Washington would have tea with ANYONE who came to see him who was "dressed properly". His biggest task in office was to put down the Whiskey Rebellion, at which point he personally led the troops into the battle. See, in Washington's day...the office of President was pretty much the office of a glorified military general, which made Washington the perfect choice. The duties of the President really did not start to expand until after the Civl War. The Civil War did a lot of things, including pretty much killing federalism. That is when the office really became prominent.

And just for the record, at the time plantations were practically as large as and functioned as towns. Not to mention the biggest business in the US, so he was essentially a CEO and a mayor.



Peanut farmer who was the governor of Georgia, movie star who was the Governor of California, womanizing stereotyped politican who was the governor of Arknasas, and Harvard C student who was the governor of Texas. Way to try and generalize while ignoring facts and making a fool of yourself. :up:

No, there isn't some pre-determined ammount of experience, but I would certainly think better of trying to put a man with practically NO experience in National politics into the White House. Do you think foreign diplomats are going to take him seriously? Hell no, they will walk all over him. Do you think Congress will take him seriously? Again, they will walk all over him. He will become Nancy Pelosi's puppet leader. The man will be commander-in-chief of our military in a time of war with absolutely no experience. Whether or not you like the war (and I sure as hell don't), it is there and Obama really doesn't inspire me as Commander-in-Chief.

Experience is not a bad word as you try and make it out to be and I think the President should have a little more than 3 years in Congress, one of which he has missed over 85 % of his votes to campaign to be President.

Forced to go there because I've been called a fool by someone who doesn't know his history.

In EACH case where they were "Govenor" of a state,... these guys were able to pull it off because of their support structures.

It's right there in their Bio's authorized and otherwise.

And way to go on your saying that others will "walk over him" w/o you having ANY examples to pull from except your bias.

Jeez,.. and I thought this was an intelligent debate.

YOU JUST KNOW how he's going to be in office,... (LOL @ how many "presidents" surprized the masses in regards of what they did in office and then hear you come telling us how it WILL BE.)

Tsk,.. try again and be more civil next time.

[Varient]

Yes, lets forget that whole thing called the Revolutionary War.:huh:

I think my main point has merit that THROUGHOUT this countries history,... people have stepped into that role (president) with less resource and/or experience than folk are bleating that Obama needs.

And of course to win their points,.. folk are now minimizing those presidents with "less experience" as having it easier than Obama will.

Tsk.

[Varient]

It would be great to see a minority in Washington but race should have absolutely no factor in the race. The best person should get the job regardless of sex or race.


How so? Sure he has ideals, but how is he going to impliment them. Universal health care. Biofuels. Ending the Iraq War. Ending the genocide in Darfur. And everything else he says look great on paper. But how is he going to impliment them?

Although I do agree with you that he comes off as a person who's in it to make a good difference. But good intentions aren't enough.


People like Obama are not what got us to the Moon, got trains across the country, and freed the slaves. That was done by people who took action. Obama really hasn't done enough action to make him on par with Abraham Lincoln and the Abolitionists, Lyndon B. Johnson who milked Kennedy's death to get things done, or the robber barrons.

Obama is more on par with Kennedy right now. An idealist. That's it. But he isn't like Lincoln, Johnson, Washington, Jefferson, or Roosevelt.


Yeah, you keep thinking that. I guarantee with someone like Obama and the vast majority of candidates out there things will still be the same old, same old.


JFK wasn't that great of a President to begin with. Like Obama, he was more of an idealist. He couldn't get much done with because of a Republican Congress that didn't want to work with him. And common sense prevailed in the Cuban Missile Crisis. I bet that if George W. Bush were in office we'd have the same outcome.

The reason why we were able to have things such as going to the Moon, and fighting poverty and what not was because Johnson was excellent in milking Kennedy's death.


I find candidates such as Ron Paul, Bill Richardson, Joe Biden, and Mike Huckabee to be better than Obama.

Meh.

Why argue with someone who minimizes the fact that Kennedy intended to go to the moon but was "too much of an idealist" to pull it off - so his Vice did it by milking his death?

I'm done,... the twisted history here is starting to give me a clue as to what I'm dealing with.


V.

[Excel]

Deval Patrick...hes demands to cut money but also demands he roll in a rolls royce and have his own helicopter...whatever, my parents who live in Mass love him though.

btw huckabeesucks; same way I would never hold osmeonesreligion against them; they sure ashell better not use it to run the country. And doesnt he want all people with aids on their own island?

[Matt]

Forced to go there because I've been called a fool by someone who doesn't know his history.

In EACH case where they were "Govenor" of a state,... these guys were able to pull it off because of their support structures.

It's right there in their Bio's authorized and otherwise.

And way to go on your saying that others will "walk over him" w/o you having ANY examples to pull from except your bias.


Probably because he has been a lap dog of Nancy Pelosi and the rest of the Democratic leadership throughout his time in Congress. And what are you talking about support structure? This isn't about why they win elections. Its about whether or not they are qualified to be President. Obama is not. They were.


Jeez,.. and I thought this was an intelligent debate.

YOU JUST KNOW how he's going to be in office,... (LOL @ how many "presidents" surprized the masses in regards of what they did in office and then hear you come telling us how it WILL BE.)

Tsk,.. try again and be more civil next time.

Nice to know you can read the future, and how 'bout you don't tell me to be civil while using your passive aggressive "I guess you don't know your history" schtick.

[Matt]

Deval Patrick...hes demands to cut money but also demands he roll in a rolls royce and have his own helicopter...whatever, my parents who live in Mass love him though.

btw huckabeesucks; same way I would never hold osmeonesreligion against them; they sure ashell better not use it to run the country. And doesnt he want all people with aids on their own island?

Excel, you should better inform yourself on Mike Huckabee. I don't see how you are such an adamant Obama supporter when you seem to know nothing on the other candidates. Why not read up on the other candidates running before you back someone so you can make the best informed decision?

[Excel]

No way am I voting another old southern white guy like the last 4 Presidents we had ;) :up:

They seem to be very good at selling themselves and then ****ing us over; I dont see why huckabee would be any different. If you want change,then you elect someone DIFFERENT, and voting for someone who is the exact same kinda person who weve had the past 18 years aint changing ****. It isnt rocket science.

[Matt]

Then vote for the south-western Hispanic guy who also happens to be the best qualified :yay:

[Varient]

Probably because he has been a lap dog of Nancy Pelosi and the rest of the Democratic leadership throughout his time in Congress. And what are you talking about support structure? This isn't about why they win elections. Its about whether or not they are qualified to be President. Obama is not. They were.



Nice to know you can read the future, and how 'bout you don't tell me to be civil while using your passive aggressive "I guess you don't know your history" schtick.

Why are you going there?

Bottom line you don't KNOW how he will do.

Example: NIXON was a surprise to EVERYONE when he got into office.

You don't like the fact that I don't appreciate being called names and THEN take offense cuz I talk down to someone who dismisses DEBATE w/o any data?

Strange place you have here.

V.

[Excel]

Then vote for the south-western Hispanic guy who also happens to be the best qualified :yay:

But his image is aweful; I dont want to see the office continue to be looked at as a national joke either. He's my dream VP for Barrack though :up:

[Erzengel]

Why are you going there?

Bottom line you don't KNOW how he will do.

Example: NIXON was a surprise to EVERYONE when he got into office.

You don't like the fact that I don't appreciate being called names and THEN take offense cuz I talk down to someone who dismisses DEBATE w/o any data?

Strange place you have here.

V.

Unless I missed something here, where did Matt exactly call you any name? :huh:

[Matt]

But his image is aweful; I dont want to see the office continue to be looked at as a national joke either.

Looked down on? Richardson is a world respected diplomat. Foreign dignitaries loved him because he was Bill Clinton's ambassador to the U.N.. He has successfully negotiated with North Korea, Cuba, and Iraq for the release of political prisoners and nominated four times for a Nobel Peace Prize due to his work as a diplomat. That is one of the main reasons I believe we need him. We need a diplomat at this point of our countrty's history. Not a cowboy like Clinton, and not someone who is green like Obama. If anything, foreign leaders will look down upon Obama for his total lack of experience.

[Matt]

Why are you going there?

Bottom line you don't KNOW how he will do.

Example: NIXON was a surprise to EVERYONE when he got into office.

You don't like the fact that I don't appreciate being called names and THEN take offense cuz I talk down to someone who dismisses DEBATE w/o any data?

Strange place you have here.

V.

Hippie_Hunter and Phere have both given you facts that you seem to ignore by saying "Clearly you don't know your history" while they are the ones backing it up.

[Excel]

Looked down on? Richardson is a world respected diplomat. Foreign dignitaries loved him because he was Bill Clinton's ambassador to the U.N.. He has successfully negotiated with North Korea, Cuba, and Iraq for the release of political prisoners and nominated four times for a Nobel Peace Prize due to his work as a diplomat. That is one of the main reasons I believe we need him. We need a diplomat at this point of our countrty's history. Not a cowboy like Clinton, and not someone who is green like Obama. If anything, foreign leaders will look down upon Obama for his total lack of experience.

I was rfering to that I dont want another president who gets mauled by the media and press after a couple mistakes because he looks human. I dont want to see our presidents weight getting made fun of by Jay Leno. I want him to bring some respect. Yall hate on Kennedy but he brought respect to our office and country both because he was a pimp and because he was smart; thats what I want.

[Matt]

I was rfering to that I dont want another president who gets mauled by the media and press after a couple mistakes because he looks human. I dont want to see our presidents weight getting made fun of by Jay Leno. I want him to bring some respect. Yall hate on Kennedy but he brought respect to our office and country both because he was a pimp and because he was smart; thats what I want.

But that'll never happen. Leno, Conan, Stewart...they will make fun of any president. They will make fun of Obama for something. It is just the nature of our society. Richardson is smart and respected. To not vote for him because he is fat is ridiculous and quite frankly, beneath you, Excel.

[Erzengel]

Kennedy was an idealist and he spent all of 2 years in the Office, and his legacy to you is "he was a pimp" and "because he was smart"? :huh:

[Excel]

Heh I didnt say I wouldnt vote for him because he was fat, if Barrack drops out and him vs. Hilary hell have my vote, I just think he would better as VP.

He doesnt strike me as a real leader so much as an intelligent worker so he should be put in a position to help us best, and thats not leading but helping.

[Excel]

Kennedy was an idealist and he spent all of 2 years in the Office, and his legacy to you is "he was a pimp" and "because he was smart"? :huh:

Lol no, people of all kinds at the time has mad respect for him because he didnt only get things done but he had a good looking wife was mor eof a celebrity than president. We could look up to him. When is the last time we were able to say we looked up to our president?

[ANTOINE X]

I m Canadian so I can't vote but we depend on you guys so I have to take an eye on your presidency. What I have to say is life is not about doing the right decision but more importantly about making changes in life that they are right or wrong. I don't really blame Bush cause he is a victim of the old system. The US is like an old machine who did very good for many decades but now it shows some flaws and it needs to be redesigned to be able to survive the new millennium. If the Americans elect Obama or Hillary who are two minorities I think it means a lot, it means that the Americans are open to a change and that they want to experiment. This is what life is all about trying new things rather than looking for succes!

[Matt]

Heh I didnt say I wouldnt vote for him because he was fat, if Barrack drops out and him vs. Hilary hell have my vote, I just think he would better as VP.

He doesnt strike me as a real leader so much as an intelligent worker so he should be put in a position to help us best, and thats not leading but helping.

Tell that to the people of New Mexico where he is turning out to be one of the most successful governors they have ever had.

[Matt]

Lol no, people of all kinds at the time has mad respect for him because he didnt only get things done but he had a good looking wife was mor eof a celebrity than president. We could look up to him. When is the last time we were able to say we looked up to our president?

Okay...y'know what...you shouldn't be allowed to vote :csad:

[Matt]

I m Canadian so I can't vote but we depend on you guys so I have to take an eye on your presidency. What I have to say is life is not about doing the right decision but more importantly about making changes in life that they are right or wrong. I don't really blame Bush cause he is a victim of the old system. The US is like an old machine who did very good for many decades but now it shows some flaws and it needs to be redesigned to be able to survive the new millennium. If the Americans elect Obama or Hillary who are two minorities I think it means a lot, it means that the Americans are open to a change and that they want to experiment. This is what life is all about trying new things rather than looking for succes!

But what you are suggesting is that we should elect an inferior candidate over a more qualified candidate simply because of their gender or skin color? That is at best, change simply for the sake of change, at worst extreme racism or sexual descrimination.

[Erzengel]

Kennedy had very little major legislative changes, while he was probably more appealing to the general populace, people who think of him as one of the best presidents based only on 2 and a half years in office, and ignoring the Bay of Pigs incident? :huh:

[hippie_hunter]

Meh.

Why argue with someone who minimizes the fact that Kennedy intended to go to the moon but was "too much of an idealist" to pull it off - so his Vice did it by milking his death?

I'm done,... the twisted history here is starting to give me a clue as to what I'm dealing with.


V.

Sorry, but it's the truth. Kennedy got very little done in office. Mostly because of a Republican Congress that didn't want to work with him. Name me one thing that Kennedy actually managed to do while he was in office that has such a huge impact today.

And you can't say the Cuban Missile Crisis. Common sense of both the American and Soviet leadership realising that if they went to nuclear war, everything would be destroyed.

You know what I'll save you the time, because I'll tell you. The Peace Corps. That's about it.

The majority of Kennedy's vision like the Civil Rights Act, the Moon Landing, and Johnson's transformation of Kennedy's ideas of fighting poverty, improving health care, heavy immigration reform, improving education, etc. were either incorporated into Johnson's Great Society or done under his watch.

[hippie_hunter]

If you ever come to my bar, you drink for free. Simply for that post alone :up:

Awesome. Now all I have to do is wait until I'm 21! :yay:

[Varient]

Unless I missed something here, where did Matt exactly call you any name? :huh:

Semantics.
"Being congratted on sounding like a fool" for having an opinion based on History 101 in college.

I'm really not going to go into it with you because I'd rather not be immediately banned,... maybe later this afternoon when I finish DEBATING why Obama is no worse than all these other scary Yahoo's running for the office.

See,.. here's my spin:

I need BETTER reasons than "He doesn't have enough experience" or "He's a smoker" before I write someone off as not able to be president.

IMPO the presidential race is a popularity contest for those who have the resources to run.

What no one has explained to my satisfaction is how one can ignore the fact that it is more important who the president surrounds himself with than how much "experience" he has in the job.

I really don't mean to be trite,.. but Political office doesn't get more difficult as you go up the chain unless you insist on making it harder - it's all about resources and knowing how to use them.

A good president IMHO is one who can surround himself with good people,... listen to their council,.. then make the hard choices.

It's not about who's prettier or who's been lying to the public the longest except in running the race.

For the second time since I've started voting I don't "Like" any of the canidates,.... but I'm also not going to dismiss Obama because "He lacks experience" and his toeing the line in Congress is seen as being a lapdog?

V.

[Erzengel]

Even the Civil Rights Act was conceived by his brother Robert and many Civil Right Leaders didn't like that he distanced himself from civil right issues previously.

I think Kennedy could have done a lot for the country if he wasn't assassinated but saying he did a lot in the time in office, is somewhat exagerated.

[Matt]

Semantics.
"Being congratted on sounding like a fool" for having an opinion based on History 101 in college.

I'm really not going to go into it with you because I'd rather not be immediately banned,... maybe later this afternoon when I finish DEBATING why Obama is no worse than all these other scary Yahoo's running for the office.

See,.. here's my spin:

I need BETTER reasons than "He doesn't have enough experience" or "He's a smoker" before I write someone off as not able to be president.

IMPO the presidential race is a popularity contest for those who have the resources to run.

What no one has explained to my satisfaction is how one can ignore the fact that it is more important who the president surrounds himself with than how much "experience" he has in the job.

I really don't mean to be trite,.. but Political office doesn't get more difficult as you go up the chain unless you insist on making it harder - it's all about resources and knowing how to use them.

A good president IMHO is one who can surround himself with good people,... listen to their council,.. then make the hard choices.

It's not about who's prettier or who's been lying to the public the longest except in running the race.

For the second time since I've started voting I don't "Like" any of the canidates,.... but I'm also not going to dismiss Obama because "He lacks experience" and his toeing the line in Congress is seen as being a lapdog?

V.

I gave you tons of reasons. All you can say is he "is idealistic" or "fresh".

And I said you made a fool of yourself. Not that you are a fool. There is a difference. Mostly because you tried to ignore the fact that Carter, Bush, Clinton, and Reagan all held governor seats before being president.

[Varient]

Hippie_Hunter and Phere have both given you facts that you seem to ignore by saying "Clearly you don't know your history" while they are the ones backing it up.

No.

They have given their opinions and rationalized (In one case) that because he didn't get what he wanted done before he was killed that JFK would not have gotten to the moon or done any of the things he'd wanted.

If you are saying that stating "what-if's" is the way to argue a point,.. Ill come back with scads of "facts" for you.

V.

[hippie_hunter]

Kennedy had very little major legislative changes, while he was probably more appealing to the general populace, people who think of him as one of the best presidents based only on 2 and a half years in office, and ignoring the Bay of Pigs incident? :huh:

Let's not forget that Kennedy's administration pretty much set in motion for Saddam Hussein to gain power. Or increasing our presence in Vietnam.

People loved and still love Kennedy for the ideals he represented and his image. Also the fact that you get your head blown off guarantees you a 95% approval rating. Not for his actions

[Erzengel]

I do think "experience" is somewhat important and I'd throw Hillary in, because she's only in her 2nd term as Senator which is her "only" official political position. Plus the fact that she carpetbagged her way into NY, always bugs me. I'd have more respect if she stayed in Arkansas and became a Senator there but no she had to go for a state that would make her more appealing.

[Matt]

No.

They have given their opinions and rationalized (In one case) that because he didn't get what he wanted done before he was killed that JFK would not have gotten to the moon or done any of the things he'd wanted.

If you are saying that stating "what-if's" is the way to argue a point,.. Ill come back with scads of "facts" for you.

V.

You're the one using What-ifs. Kennedy's short term shows Congress blocked practically every attempt he made to pass anything. YOu are the one saying "If he didn't die he would be one of the greatest"

[PhotoJones]

I think the appeal of Obama is that he says things that other politicians don't say. He speaks about things that matter to the majority of the country, not just a select few. Also, he seems the most genuine.

[hippie_hunter]

No.

They have given their opinions and rationalized (In one case) that because he didn't get what he wanted done before he was killed that JFK would not have gotten to the moon or done any of the things he'd wanted.

If you are saying that stating "what-if's" is the way to argue a point,.. Ill come back with scads of "facts" for you.

V.

The man couldn't get anything done due to Congress. That's fact. However, I'll admit that I was wrong due that the Republicans were a majority. However you still had your conservative Democrats and the Republican minority that didn't work with Kennedy. Put those two together and the outnumbered the Kennedy styled Democrats.

The man was more of an idealist than an action taker. That's fact.

Pretty much everything Kennedy invisioned was done under Johnson's watch. That's fact.

He was in office for too short of time to make any true impact because a huge portion of his skull flopped off his head. That's fact.

If things continued the way they were going under Kennedy's leadership. The Civil Rights Act would have most likely occured slightly later than it did. And maybe the Moon landing would have happened so we could beat those damn evil Commies. But unless a more Kennedy-styled Democratic Congress gained power under his administration. Kennedy would have still been unable to do the vast majority of what he visioned.

[hippie_hunter]

I do think "experience" is somewhat important and I'd throw Hillary in, because she's only in her 2nd term as Senator which is her "only" official political position. Plus the fact that she carpetbagged her way into NY, always bugs me. I'd have more respect if she stayed in Arkansas and became a Senator there but no she had to go for a state that would make her more appealing.

I live in New York and the fact that she carpetbagged her way into New York pissses me off. What else pisses me off about her is that she used her position not to help the people of New York, but to build her own political career so that she could run for President. She used her re-election campaign as a fundraiser for her Presidential aspirations.

I'd really would prefer Obama over this b***h.

[Varient]

Sorry, but it's the truth. Kennedy got very little done in office. Mostly because of a Republican Congress that didn't want to work with him. Name me one thing that Kennedy actually managed to do while he was in office that has such a huge impact today.

And you can't say the Cuban Missile Crisis. Common sense of both the American and Soviet leadership realising that if they went to nuclear war, everything would be destroyed.

You know what I'll save you the time, because I'll tell you. The Peace Corps. That's about it.

The majority of Kennedy's vision like the Civil Rights Act, the Moon Landing, and Johnson's transformation of Kennedy's ideas of fighting poverty, improving health care, heavy immigration reform, improving education, etc. were either incorporated into Johnson's Great Society or done under his watch.


No offense -
My point is we'll never know because he was killed halfway thru his first run.
He HAD A VISION,... he was trying to impliment it,... he got wacked in the process of trying to make change.

I'm also not going to minimize someone that others believed it would be better if he were dead,.... It points for me at the fact that he was in the process of making change and it wasn't appreciated.

V.

[hippie_hunter]

No offense -
My point is we'll never know because he was killed halfway thru his first run.
He HAD A VISION,... he was trying to impliment it,... he got wacked in the process of trying to make change.

I'm also not going to minimize someone that others believed it would be better if he were dead,.... It points for me at the fact that he was in the process of making change and it wasn't appreciated.

V.

Yes Kennedy had a vision. A good vision designed to bring change and help to the American people. That's it. Sorry but the truth is that Kennedy was unable, and very likely to continue to be so because of Congress, to get much of anything done.

Kennedy's assassination and Johnson's action taking was what got Kennedy's vision off the ground.

[Varient]

I gave you tons of reasons. All you can say is he "is idealistic" or "fresh".

And I said you made a fool of yourself. Not that you are a fool. There is a difference. Mostly because you tried to ignore the fact that Carter, Bush, Clinton, and Reagan all held governor seats before being president.

I never said that. (Idealistic? "Fresh"???)

And I didn't "ignore" what they did before - I had taken the time to look at how they had pulled it off.

Look at the current Govenor of California.

How much "experience" does he have and how much of his successes have been by who he surrounded himself with?

Easy answer : He built his team and delegated and overcame his lack of "experience" by using the counsel of others more privy in the areas that he was not familar with to govern correctly.

Honestly,... A CEO of a major Corp could probably be a better president than anyone running for the job right now,... but none of them would take the pay cut.

This is because that is what CEO's do - they surround themselves with folk with a clue and make money.



V.

[Varient]

Let's not forget that Kennedy's administration pretty much set in motion for Saddam Hussein to gain power. Or increasing our presence in Vietnam.

People loved and still love Kennedy for the ideals he represented and his image. Also the fact that you get your head blown off guarantees you a 95% approval rating. Not for his actions

Damn.

[Varient]

You're the one using What-ifs. Kennedy's short term shows Congress blocked practically every attempt he made to pass anything. YOu are the one saying "If he didn't die he would be one of the greatest"

Stop that please.

I didn't say that either.

V.

[Steve Rogers]

I'm pretty neutral towards Obama. While I don't hate him, I feel there are other candidates better suited out there. And while I'd sooner vote for Richardson or Edwards before Obama, let's face it: neither of those guys have a shot. So if the race comes down to Obama vs. Any of the Republican Candidates, would it be wrong to cast my vote for him based on the fact that I support him over any of the Republican candidates, but still don't support him one hundred percent?

[Matt]

I never said that. (Idealistic? "Fresh"???)

And I didn't "ignore" what they did before - I had taken the time to look at how they had pulled it off.

Look at the current Govenor of California.

How much "experience" does he have and how much of his successes have been by who he surrounded himself with?

Easy answer : He built his team and delegated and overcame his lack of "experience" by using the counsel of others more privy in the areas that he was not familar with to govern correctly.

Honestly,... A CEO of a major Corp could probably be a better president than anyone running for the job right now,... but none of them would take the pay cut.

This is because that is what CEO's do - they surround themselves with folk with a clue and make money.



V.

Arnold was a lobbyist, wrote several bills in California, and was actively involved in politics before running. He had experience.

I'm not saying that a strong cabinet and staff is not important, but I am not electing a guy who will hire a strong staff to do his job for him. I am voting for the guy who will do his job the best because when push comes to shove, the President makes the final decision. Not his staff. Obama hasn't shown that he is capable of handling the job nor that he has the experience to do it.

[Varient]

Arnold was a lobbyist, wrote several bills in California, and was actively involved in politics before running. He had experience.

I'm not saying that a strong cabinet and staff is not important, but I am not electing a guy who will hire a strong staff to do his job for him. I am voting for the guy who will do his job the best because when push comes to shove, the President makes the final decision. Not his staff. Obama hasn't shown that he is capable of handling the job nor that he has the experience to do it.

?
"a lobbyist, wrote several bills in California, and was actively involved in politics before running." = "Experience in being the GOVENOR of CALIFORNIA?"


Now you are reaching because:

Obama was in Illinois State senate 1997-2004 - not lobbying for attention from elected officials,... Obama has Written Bills WHILE IN OFFICE,.... Not simply doing it from the outside.

His BIO says he was MORE active than Arnold has been,.... so what exactly do you mean?

V.

[ANTOINE X]

But what you are suggesting is that we should elect an inferior candidate over a more qualified candidate simply because of their gender or skin color? That is at best, change simply for the sake of change, at worst extreme racism or sexual descrimination.

Well first I never said he(Obama) was inferior in contrary I think he said something that really justify what I was saying earlier with bush as part of the old system! Obama said we should not always hate our enemies but also try to understand try to communicate see if there other alternative than war. To me sending troops to fight the enemy is part of the old system. With bush it s more like ''its my way or the Highway''. Not that it wasn't effective it was at some time but if you use it all the time it 's becoming a problem.

To tell you the truth I was more about Hillary than Obama.But she made a big mistake to agree to send troops In Irak, so now she's out of my list.

And I ll be honest with you it is simply because she s a woman. Why? You re probably gonna laugh at that answer but I want you to think about it.

Even if I m a man (And some time really macho) I found out that most of the problems in humanity existence were done by men! Beginning with war! I m tired about having people killing each other for a peace of land or money or religion it has never change since!

Ill tell you what make change my mind : I went in a store and there was two girls playing side by side on a race video game: one of the girls was better than the other one but instead of looking for the finish line she said to her other girl to watch her self she even tell her how to play at the risk of loosing the game. Now you know if it was 2 guys chance are it wouldn't be the same story. one would be the winer and the other one the loser end of the story.

So by electing a woman I think they might be hope for a none violent world. I'm not saying there re saint ( b**** will still exist :grin:) but I could live with that. I have a big respect for Hillary to be a woman in that jungle. I think guys have to step down for while go back to 'school' learn from the women...But that doesn't mean we wont be back we will and this time stronger than ever! :yay:

[Matt]

?
"a lobbyist, wrote several bills in California, and was actively involved in politics before running." = "Experience in being the GOVENOR of CALIFORNIA?"


Now you are reaching because:

Obama was in Illinois State senate 1997-2004 - not lobbying for attention from elected officials,... Obama has Written Bills WHILE IN OFFICE,.... Not simply doing it from the outside.

His BIO says he was MORE active than Arnold has been,.... so what exactly do you mean?

V.


Firstly, what bio are you talking about? Cite your sources if you are going to make claims like that.

Second, yes, Arnold's experience in CALIFORNIA politics does qualify him to be governor of a single state. Obama's state senate tenure qualifies him to be a senator, not President of the ENTIRE UNITED STATES.

[Steve Rogers]

Damn it. I hate when my post becomes the last on the previous page and gets lost forever in the SHH void.

[Matt]

Well first I never said he(Obama) was inferior in contrary I think he said something that really justify what I was saying earlier with bush as part of the old system! Obama said we should not always hate our enemies but also try to understand try to communicate see if there other alternative than war. To me sending troops to fight the enemy is part of the old system. With bush it s more like ''its my way or the Highway''. Not that it wasn't effective it was at some time but if you use it all the time it 's becoming a problem.

To tell you the truth I was more about Hillary than Obama.But she made a big mistake to agree to send troops In Irak, so now she's out of my list.

And I ll be honest with you it is simply because she s a woman. Why? You re probably gonna laugh at that answer but I want you to think about it.

Even if I m a man (And some time really macho) I found out that most of the problems in humanity existence were done by men! Beginning with war! I m tired about having people killing each other for a peace of land or money or religion it has never change since!

Ill tell you what make change my mind : I went in a store and there was two girls playing side by side on a race video game: one of the girls was better than the other one but instead of looking for the finish line she said to her other girl to watch her self she even tell her how to play at the risk of loosing the game. Now you know if it was 2 guys chance are it wouldn't be the same story. one would be the winer and the other one the loser end of the story.

So by electing a woman I think they might be hope for a none violent world. I'm not saying there re saint ( b**** will still exist :grin:) but I could live with that. I have a big respect for Hillary to be a woman in that jungle. I think guys have to step down for while go back to 'school' learn from the women...But that doesn't mean we wont be back we will and this time stronger than ever! :yay:

I honestly don't know how to respond to any of that rant :huh:

[Erzengel]

So essentially American should give Hillary a shot in the White House because she's a woman, almost using the excuse, men have f'ed it up, let's see what she can do. Not even going into the aspect if she is indeed qualified for the job?

[Matt]

I'm pretty neutral towards Obama. While I don't hate him, I feel there are other candidates better suited out there. And while I'd sooner vote for Richardson or Edwards before Obama, let's face it: neither of those guys have a shot. So if the race comes down to Obama vs. Any of the Republican Candidates, would it be wrong to cast my vote for him based on the fact that I support him over any of the Republican candidates, but still don't support him one hundred percent?

I'm still not sure that Edwards and Richardson can't win. Polls in primaries are very inaccurate as several of the people they project do not show up to vote for primaries.

The fact that Richardson has 13-15 % of the vote is impressive because that 13-15 % who are aware of RIchardson are likely more devoted as they have bothered to inform themselves of a lower tier candidate, where as Edwards, Clinton, and Obama's campaing probably has AT LEAST a quarter of their votes due to media as opposed to actual support. If Richardson can get the vote out there in Iowa, he can very well be the dark horse that finishes in the top 3. If he beats just one of the major 3, then his campaign can very well snowball by the time it gets to New Hampshire and South Carolina.

[ANTOINE X]

So essentially American should give Hillary a shot in the White House because she's a woman, almost using the excuse, men have f'ed it up, let's see what she can do. Not even going into the aspect if she is indeed qualified for the job?

why not... you see many president with diplomas bigger then all the super hero hype treads combined together and what? Did you really see big changes?

[ANTOINE X]

Some of u are afraid of changes so you elect the same type of guy and things don't change much.

[Erzengel]

Because it would be incredibly careless and naive to think that just because she's a woman, it would be a catalyst to end violence over the world and bring us to a golden age.

[Steve Rogers]

I'm still not sure that Edwards and Richardson can't win. Polls in primaries are very inaccurate as several of the people they project do not show up to vote for primaries.

The fact that Richardson has 13-15 % of the vote is impressive because that 13-15 % who are aware of RIchardson are likely more devoted as they have bothered to inform themselves of a lower tier candidate, where as Edwards, Clinton, and Obama's campaing probably has AT LEAST a quarter of their votes due to media as opposed to actual support. If Richardson can get the vote out there in Iowa, he can very well be the dark horse that finishes in the top 3. If he beats just one of the major 3, then his campaign can very well snowball by the time it gets to New Hampshire and South Carolina.That would be nice. I mean, mathaematically speaking everyone has a chance, but in the end I think it will come down to media coverage. Sometimes I wish we could do away with television in times of election. I think we've been voting based on what the boob tube tells us since the 50's. I also love how the media plays up the fact that Obama is black and that Hillary is a woman and never mentions Richardson's hispanic heritage. If we are going to turn this into a We Are the World Election, then give all minorities a fair shake in the media. But still, my earlier question still stands. Should I vote for a guy I kinda like just because I hate the other guy? Last election I voted for Nader just because I hated Kerry and Bush. I don't know how smart that was. Is it better to not vote at all? Again, I don't dislike Obama, but at this point of the race there are other candidates I support. In my personal list Obama is like 3rd place. Is it morally wrong to vote in my number three choice because my number one and two choices are out?

[Matt]

I think it is. But thats just me. I think you should vote for who you see as the best person for the job, regardless of their odds of winning.

[Steve Rogers]

I think it is. But thats just me. I think you should vote for who you see as the best person for the job, regardless of their odds of winning.Well I'm talking about in November. When only two candidates remain.

[ANTOINE X]

Because it would be incredibly careless and naive to think that just because she's a woman, it would be a catalyst to end violence over the world and bring us to a golden age.

First u don't know that. Cause you never tried it and thats the whole problem with some Americans citizens they are too traditional. And also I think Hillary will do some mistake but it s normal she is the first woman so it wont be perfect. But she will open the door to other woman president so you have to see this in long term.

Look I m not a feminist but I am open to knew idea new ways of thinking. Men we had our chances and we did very good in terms of economy and science but socially we need help. All those war are men's war noting to do with women.

[Varient]

Firstly, what bio are you talking about? Cite your sources if you are going to make claims like that.

Second, yes, Arnold's experience in CALIFORNIA politics does qualify him to be governor of a single state. Obama's state senate tenure qualifies him to be a senator, not President of the ENTIRE UNITED STATES.

Agreeing to disagree that being able to write out what you want and "lobby" elected officials does NOT give the required experience to be the govenor of ANY STATE.

If you like I'll start posting links,... they all say the same thing,...
For example in ref to his "lack of experience on foriegn topics:

"First off, the whole, no experience in international issues is a) not a Presidential qualification - if it was, Bush wouldn’t have been allowed to run, and b) not true - he was born in Hawaii to a Kenyan father, and his family relocated to Jakarta.

He received a B.A. in political science with a specialization in international relations from Columbia University, and spent a year working for the Business International Corporation, a publishing and advisory firm dedicated to assisting American companies in operating abroad, as an editor in its international financial information division.
He was also the primary sponsor of the "Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy Promotion Act."
Obama has also traveled to Russia, the Ukraine and Azerbaijan to personally inspect a nuclear warhead destruction facility, and to tout a disease control and prevention facility.

He’s travelled to Kenya, Ethiopia, Chad, Djibouti and South Africa to encourage voluntary HIV testing. He’s also gone to Kuwait, Iraq, Jordan, Israel, and Palestine on official Congressional delegations.

So, to say he hasn’t got international experience is kind of inaccurate considering how much more experience he has than others who have run successfully. "

Reference: dalepetrie - a poster on http://askville.amazon.com/Barack-Obama-appeals-people
Who compiled his info from Obama website, wikipedia and the Chicago Tribune.

Can you disprove any of this? as in keep saying he has no experience abroad dealing with others?

Can you please list the other canidates who have at least "SOME" experience abroad before assuming that because Obama doesn't he'll be run rough-shod over by foriegn diplomats?

V.

V.

[Erzengel]

First u don't know that. Cause you never tried it and thats the whole problem with some Americans citizens they are too traditional. And also I think Hillary will do some mistake but it s normal she is the first woman so it wont be perfect. But she will open the door to other woman president so you have to see this in long term.

Look I m not a feminist but I am open to knew idea new ways of thinking. Men we had our chances and we did very good in terms of economy and science but socially we need help. All those war are men's war noting to do with women.
Hey I like ideas as much as the next guy, but picking the president of the most powerful country of the world based on, "let's try something different" is foolish. It'd be one thing if she was the most capable person for the job, which I have to say as of right now, I don't think she is.

[ANTOINE X]

Hey I like ideas as much as the next guy, but picking the president of the most powerful country of the world based on, "let's try something different" is foolish. It'd be one thing if she was the most capable person for the job, which I have to say as of right now, I don't think she is.


You know what is man world? I do. Its lets be first in the world. I'm tired of working 8 or twelve hours just to see some trillions of dollars showing in a brilliant LED Nadsdaq screen in the middle of Manhattan! Like its something cool to watch! Or working hard so that Bile gates gets 20 mercedez benz instead of 10 so that it look good on his CV.

Let s face it! All the different nation talk to each other because of money not because they like each other thats crap!. White, black ,yellow, brown we speak to each other at work but when the shift ends we split to our home end of story. So maybe girls have something different to offer.I think they have more skills than man when it comes to solve social problems. I can be wrong or I can be right it doesn't matter failure is part of life but at least we tried something new! We try to change things!

[Erzengel]

Honestly, my spell check broke trying to decipher that. Could you break it down into 1 sentence please?

[Varient]

Honestly, my spell check broke trying to decipher that. Could you break it down into 1 sentence please?

Stop being insulting because you don't want to consider his premise:

That he feels that perhaps a woman with a woman's point of view should be given a chance to untangle the kind of issues a president would handle,... simply because most women seem to have a different spin on things than the stereotypical male.

And yes,... he did say that.

And there is a precedence. I believe Iceland, (or Greenland) has had many female leaders - I think I'll go Google that,.. my info's over ten years old.

V.

[ANTOINE X]

Honestly, my spell check broke trying to decipher that. Could you break it down into 1 sentence please?

LoL even with google I still do a lot error. Ok Let say that man's world is just about been first no matter what are the consequences. And that child game has to stop!

[Erzengel]

How do you know I'm not considering his premise?

Secondly, maybe you shouldn't try to nit pick my posts, considering you seem to go off on people who try and do it to you.

[Erzengel]

LoL even with google I still do a lot error. Ok Let say that man's world is just about been first no matter what are the consequences. And that child game has to stop!
Unfortunately, even in the age we live in, and as "liberal" as we are in the cities, I think that we see a minority male president before we even see a female president. This country is still a little sexist in that regard especially in the red states.

In Hillary's case, "experience" and "competence" aside, she's not likable. I've said this before, she has 0 of Bill's charisma and I think her debates are what hurt her and while other Democrats have cut the lead on her.

[Varient]

How do you know I'm not considering his premise?

Secondly, maybe you shouldn't try to nit pick my posts, considering you seem to go off on people who try and do it to you.

one - Because he has said the SAME thing three times in different ways as you continued to not understand.

two - Not even "nit-picking your posts",.. you seem to get a charge out of acting obtuse to generate drama,... and in my case I have little patience with "nah ah" games where people state opinion as if it were fact and then get ugly when folk don't agree with them.

In fact,.. of the two of us from previous posts,.. YOU have wasted more time attacking others for not agreeing with you,... this situation being a good example.

And yes,... it's an attack when you use words like, careless, and foolish, on his premise while reducing his arguement like sumbody just pulled a homeless female off the street and put her up as President BECAUSE she is female.

V.

[Erzengel]

one - there you go again, I understood what he said, just questioning the rationale behind it.

two - this from a person who craves attention? I'm leaving this thread because it's ridiculous, oh wait, someone responded to me. :whatever:

three - First of all, my post to him was a joke, which he took it as, you on the other hand seem to be constantly posting passive-aggressive condescending posts to anyone who even tries and debate you.

Call it an attack all you want, you just look for any reason to get on your high horse. :o

[ANTOINE X]

Unfortunately, even in the age we live in, and as "liberal" as we are in the cities, I think that we see a minority male president before we even see a female president. This country is still a little sexist in that regard especially in the red states.

In Hillary's case, "experience" and "competence" aside, she's not likable. I've said this before, she has 0 of Bill's charisma and I think her debates are what hurt her and while other Democrats have cut the lead on her.

This country is sexist and racist! I said it before obama is also my choice because he represent a minority. I see a lot of movies where they put woman and black in the president chair but will they do it in the reallity? This is the big test to see if Americans want's to see change want,s to try new things.

[Varient]

one - there you go again, I understood what he said, just questioning the rationale behind it.

two - this from a person who craves attention? I'm leaving this thread because it's ridiculous, oh wait, someone responded to me. :whatever:

three - First of all, my post to him was a joke, which he took it as, you on the other hand seem to be constantly posting passive-aggressive condescending posts to anyone who even tries and debate you.

Call it an attack all you want, you just look for any reason to get on your high horse. :o

good cop out.

Please continue to play.

One - You "question his rationale" by acting like you can't understand him.
Gotcha.

two - Always your definitions of "Others" motivations because you seem to be unable to think outside the box. You show an inability to face someones reasons at face value but instead insist on telling folk that they do things for reasons you understand or accept.

Not feeling this part - sorry.


three - He has a choice,.. he can get irritated as you dance on a serious issue, or simply consider the source and dance with you until he gets his point across.
I'm thinking he has lots of patience when he wants to make a point and is willing to rephrase the same thing until you accept it.

Still no heat,... you assume too much - "again".

V.

[Erzengel]

One - Uh, the last post was a joke, which HE GOT. You may have not got it, but resumed our conversation even without your imput.

Two - And I'm pretty much on the money most of the time. Stating hey "I'm done" in a thread and then reposting an hour later? That reeks of someone craving attention.

Three - Like I said, I was speaking to him, he got the point, you only got involved because you assume you knew better. It's like you overheard some else's conversation which was "civil" and jumped in there to explain what one person actually meant. Maybe it would have been better if you just I don't know butted out?

[Figs]

This country is sexist and racist! I said it before obama is also my choice because he represent a minority. I see a lot of movies where they put woman and black in the president chair but will they do it in the reallity? This is the big test to see if Americans want's to see change want,s to try new things.


Sexist and racist? :whatever: The whole country?

Seriously, im scared if you just see it as a test to see if America wants change. I don't think just any female or any black man should be voted in just to have a "first". To me that is like having Hitler voted in just because he's the first to have that style of moustach lol (not really:oldrazz: ).

If the "right" woman or black man were to run I would have no problem voting for them but with the two current choices...I think I'll pass.

[ANTOINE X]

Sexist and racist? :whatever: The whole country?

Seriously, im scared if you just see it as a test to see if America want's change. I don't think just any female or any black man should be voted in just to have a "first". To me that is like having Hitler voted in just because he's the first to have style of moustach lol (not really:oldrazz: ).

If the "right" woman or black man were to run I would have no problem voting for them but with the two current choices...I think I'll pass.

Well you will never know until you try. And please do not take you reference from the presidency competion on tv. That s pure entertainment!:whatever:

[SuBe]

This country is sexist and racist! I said it before obama is also my choice because he represent a minority. I see a lot of movies where they put woman and black in the president chair but will they do it in the reallity? This is the big test to see if Americans want's to see change want,s to try new things.
It's not a "test". It is an Election and the Better person to lead this country will win.

[Steve Rogers]

It's not a "test". It is an Election and the Better person to lead this country will win.
Ha! Do you really believe that?

[Matt]

Variant, do you need a cool down period? Erzengel has been on these boards for 3 years and I have never seen him post in a confrontational or combative manner. Meanwhile, here you are talking down to practically every poster you can find as though you are superior to them or your opinion matters more, even to the point where you butt into two posters joking around, to lecture them. Take it down a notch or I will give you a couple days to cool down.

[SuBe]

Ha! Do you really believe that?
No, I just made that crap up. But, please tell me how I'm naive. Please.

[Figs]

Well you will never know until you try. And please do not take you reference from the presidency competion on tv. That s pure entertainment!:whatever:

What references from what presidency competion on tv?? I came up with all that I just said there, and haven't been watching any of the debates since most of the candidates I don't care for. I've taken the time to read about them but haven't watched anything on tv.

[Varient]

One - Uh, the last post was a joke, which HE GOT. You may have not got it, but resumed our conversation even without your imput.

Two - And I'm pretty much on the money most of the time. Stating hey "I'm done" in a thread and then reposting an hour later? That reeks of someone craving attention.

Three - Like I said, I was speaking to him, he got the point, you only got involved because you assume you knew better. It's like you overheard some else's conversation which was "civil" and jumped in there to explain what one person actually meant. Maybe it would have been better if you just I don't know butted out?

Here U go again "ASSUMING something"

the last time I said I was leaving A THREAD it wa the WWH thread and I've not been back there since.

I actually had to go back to figure out what you meant and it's obvious you did the same thing you are trying to accuse me of,.. you took my being done argueing with SOMEONE ELSE a declaration that I was leaving the thread,

And now you are putting all YOUR reasoning on it.

Get a grip.

Not that it was ANY of your business,.. I came back an hour later AFTER a mod PM'd me,... NOT because I crave attention,.. yet ANOTHER example of your deciding someone elses motivations.

You do this so much - I'm surprised you believe you are "so on the money."

Too much to expect an apology from you on getting that wrong so just Stop digging a hole already.

V.

[YsoSerious]

Why do you support him? Really, I want to know. This entire Obama craze has been totally lost on me and I am curious as to what the appeal is. In all honesty, I also wonder, how many Obama supporters will come out and say they are voting for him on the grounds of him being black? (which I consider that just as bad as not voting for him on the grounds of his being black.) I ask because it seems he has taken a substantial lead in Iowa and it seems to that he lacks any kind of platform (sure, he will give vague ideas, but has never given a practical way to fund or carry out these grand schemes of his). He has no experience outside of 3 years in national politics, so that seems to me to be the equivilant of handing the reigns of a fortune 500 company to a CEO who has spent a few years in marketing. I can give a list of reasons why I support Richardson...I really wonder how many Obama voters can do the same (without using words like "He is fresh blood" or "He's an honest respectable guy....I know even though I've never met him"...y'know, using pseudo-reasons to cover up the fact that they are voting for him to show how 'liberal' they are)?

Note: I am not saying all Obama supporters are voting for him because he is charasmatic or black or trendy. I am simply asking to know why most people are supporting him.

I generally have voted republican but see Obama as a uniter.And is Obama black? He is as much white as black if you want to get technical.I feel we have reached the age where nobody really cares about gender or race when it comes to leadership.Alot of us have female bosses or bosses of other races. It's the way of the world, accept it or fail in it.Obama is like the guy who is called up from AAA to fill in for the injured superstar.Nobody has faced him before so for a couple months he bats .350 and hits 30 homers untill somebody figures him out.Our country needs somebody like that because Hillary Clinton is basically like Johnny Damon. Alot of hope at first but after a few years you realize you could have saved millions by signing Milton Bradley. Hope the baseball analogies weren't too much.

[Chris B]

I've always felt that whoever the next President ends up being, he or she will need to be an agent of change in order to really turn things around here in the US. Personally, I feel that out of all the candidates, John Edwards would be the one most likely to do that.

Granted, Obama is my second choice, and I would vote for him if he ends up being the nominee. My problem with him though is that I just get a sense that were he elected President now, he would end up being the new Jimmy Carter.

Experience isn't that much of factor for me because Edwards and Obama are about equal in that regard. It more of a matter of approach. I think that if the next President trully wants to challenge the status quo, he'll need to be a fighter. My own observation is that Edwards has displayed that quality, and I think don't Obama's more pragmastist approach would work in that situation.

[ANTOINE X]

It's not a "test". It is an Election and the Better person to lead this country will win.

I don't know what best means? Do you mean the smartest? Cause I have seen a lot of smart president doing nothing more than looking for them self.

Yes maybe the economy is good maybe you have ipods with better computer than before and yes! USA is the first in the world..But when you go at the metro or in the bus do you see happy faces? No what you see is frustrated person, a lot of tired people. Some are tired to work just to be numero UNO in the world, tired to work for your boss that ask U to perform like superman so he can have 6 ferraries and give 6 ipods to his kid. Men was suppose to use money as a tool. Now money is our boss!

Girls like competition but they know when to stop. Guys never! So I think electing a woman could be something really good! Maybe I m wrong but what worse can happen to me? Do you think USA will stop to exist? Don't think so!

[Erzengel]

So it's the same as you puting YOUR reasoning of what I was saying to Antione X?

[ANTOINE X]

What references from what presidency competion on tv?? I came up with all that I just said there, and haven't been watching any of the debates since most of the candidates I don't care for. I've taken the time to read about them but haven't watched anything on tv.

Good cause I m not impress with speeches especially president speeches

[Matt]

I generally have voted republican but see Obama as a uniter.And is Obama black? He is as much white as black if you want to get technical.I feel we have reached the age where nobody really cares about gender or race when it comes to leadership.Alot of us have female bosses or bosses of other races. It's the way of the world, accept it or fail in it.Obama is like the guy who is called up from AAA to fill in for the injured superstar.Nobody has faced him before so for a couple months he bats .350 and hits 30 homers untill somebody figures him out.Our country needs somebody like that because Hillary Clinton is basically like Johnny Damon. Alot of hope at first but after a few years you realize you could have saved millions by signing Milton Bradley. Hope the baseball analogies weren't too much.


Fair enough. Well, at least you have a decent reason :up:

[hippie_hunter]

Girls like competition but they know when to stop. Guys never! So I think electing a woman could be something really good! Maybe I m wrong but what worse can happen to me? Do you think USA will stop to exist? Don't think so!

Electing a woman would be great if she is suited for the job. But electing someone because of their race or gender is just plain idiotic.

I'm sorry but if a white man is more suited for the Presidency than a woman or a black man, the white man is far more deserving of it.

[SuBe]

I don't know what best means? Do you mean the smartest? Cause I have seen a lot of smart president doing nothing more than looking for them self.

Yes maybe the economy is good maybe you have ipods with better computer than before and yes! USA is the first in the world..But when you go at the metro or in the bus do you see happy faces? No what you see is frustrated person, a lot of tired people. Some are tired to work just to be numero UNO in the world, tired to work for your boss that ask U to perform like superman so he can have 6 ferraries and give 6 ipods to his kid. Men was suppose to use money as a tool. Now money is our boss!

Girls like competition but they know when to stop. Guys never! So I think electing a woman could be something really good! Maybe I m wrong but what worse can happen to me? Do you think USA will stop to exist? Don't think so!
You make good points. Benevlance (sp?) barely exists anymore. And I don't believe that Hillary would have what is best for the US as her intentions. She wants legacy.

[ANTOINE X]

I generally have voted republican but see Obama as a uniter.And is Obama black? He is as much white as black if you want to get technical.I feel we have reached the age where nobody really cares about gender or race when it comes to leadership.Alot of us have female bosses or bosses of other races. It's the way of the world, accept it or fail in it.Obama is like the guy who is called up from AAA to fill in for the injured superstar.Nobody has faced him before so for a couple months he bats .350 and hits 30 homers untill somebody figures him out.Our country needs somebody like that because Hillary Clinton is basically like Johnny Damon. Alot of hope at first but after a few years you realize you could have saved millions by signing Milton Bradley. Hope the baseball analogies weren't too much.


Well there s part I dont really undertand what do you mean Obama is more white than black?

[SuBe]

Electing a woman would be great if she is suited for the job. But electing someone because of their race or gender is just plain idiotic.

I'm sorry but if a white man is more suited for the Presidency than a woman or a black man, the white man is far more deserving of it.
Exactly.

[Varient]

Variant, do you need a cool down period? Erzengel has been on these boards for 3 years and I have never seen him post in a confrontational or combative manner. Meanwhile, here you are talking down to practically every poster you can find as though you are superior to them or your opinion matters more, even to the point where you butt into two posters joking around, to lecture them. Take it down a notch or I will give you a couple days to cool down.

Matt.

Seriously.

Are you saying that just because you have NOT read me for the years I have been here but have read him,.. that you OBVIOUSLY didn't read where he talked down to me on the slo glo AND the heinz 57 threads in a confrontational and combative manner,to a point where OTHER POSTERS told him to back off -

That I'm the one who needs a "cooling off period?"

Well I expected to be banned today after reading how this has been going since this morning,.. the only ones complaining about my postings at this point are you and Erzengel.

V.

[Steve Rogers]

No, I just made that crap up. But, please tell me how I'm naive. Please.First of all, no one called you naive but yourself. Second, I was merely asking a question. It seems by your response that you think the best candidate for the job is always elected. I challenge that notion with Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon and George W. Bush. Hell, I'll even throw Clinton in there, and I like the man. I think our history is peppered with people being voted into office based on charisma and how well the play to the crowd or camera, or how different or unique they are. I once took part in a survey in my political science class back in college. We found out that a lot of people vote based on the appearence of the candidate and not much else.

[ANTOINE X]

You make good points. Benevlance (sp?) barely exists anymore. And I don't believe that Hillary would have what is best for the US as her intentions. She wants legacy.

My ONLY Big problem with Hillary is that she was for the troops in Irak.:csad:

[Erzengel]

Matt.

Seriously.

Are you saying that just because you have NOT read me for the years I have been here but have read him,.. that you OBVIOUSLY didn't read where he talked down to me on the slo glo AND the heinz 57 threads in a confrontational and combative manner,to a point where OTHER POSTERS told him to back off -
Really? News to me. :huh:

And I hope you weren't talking about Dew who told EVERYONE to back down. :o

[hippie_hunter]

First of all, no one called you naive but yourself. Second, I was merely asking a question. It seems by your response that you think the best candidate for the job is always elected. I challenge that notion with Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon and George W. Bush. Hell, I'll even throw Clinton in there, and I like the man. I think our history is peppered with people being voted into office based on charisma and how well the play to the crowd or camera, or how different or unique they are. I once took part in a survey in my political science class back in college. We found out that a lot of people vote based on the appearence of the candidate and not much else.

You know, if Nixon weren't such a criminal he would have gone down as a very good President in the history books.

[Matt]

Matt.

Seriously.

Are you saying that just because you have NOT read me for the years I have been here but have read him,.. that you OBVIOUSLY didn't read where he talked down to me on the slo glo AND the heinz 57 threads in a confrontational and combative manner,to a point where OTHER POSTERS told him to back off -

That I'm the one who needs a "cooling off period?"

Well I expected to be banned today after reading how this has been going since this morning,.. the only ones complaining about my postings at this point are you and Erzengel.

V.

I'm not observing his behavior in those threads. I'm talking about THIS
thread. Now you have 3 options.

1) Cool down and debate civilly.
2) Don't debate at all.
3) Have a nice probation period.

This is your last warning.

[Matt]

You know, if Nixon weren't such a criminal he would have gone down as a very good President in the history books.

Nixon was in all actuality a great president. Probably the best of the past fifty years outside of Johnson.

[hippie_hunter]

Nixon was in all actuality a great president.

It's a shame really. If Nixon weren't so damn paranoid and committed the crimes at Watergate, he would be remembered rather fondly.

[Steve Rogers]

You know, if Nixon weren't such a criminal he would have gone down as a very good President in the history books.
Well there's the thing. If he weren't such a criminal. I don't know much about the suject but the man must have done something wrong if he volunteered to step down instead of face impeachment.

[SuBe]

My ONLY Big problem with Hillary is that she was for the troops in Irak.:csad:
My problem with Hillary is she wants to grow government, believes in "Universal" Healthcare, puts legacy before the country, engages in Poll Politics, panders out of boths sides of her face and isn't a generally nice person. Other than that, she's ok.

[ANTOINE X]

Electing a woman would be great if she is suited for the job. But electing someone because of their race or gender is just plain idiotic.

I'm sorry but if a white man is more suited for the Presidency than a woman or a black man, the white man is far more deserving of it.

Well first Hillary and Obama are not idiots far from it! they re just different and thats scare a lot of people. I'm wiling to to take that chance if it s not working I ll move on!

[Matt]

Well first Hillary and Obama are not idiots far from it! they re just different and thats scare a lot of people. I'm wiling to to take that chance if it s not working I ll move on!

They aren't idiots but they also aren't the best choices for president. Why should we elect Hilary and Obama over more qualified candidates who would be better for the job simply because they have a different skin color or a vagina?

[hippie_hunter]

Well there's the thing. If he weren't such a criminal. I don't know much about the suject but the man must have done something wrong if he volunteered to step down instead of face impeachment.

He stepped down because he was going to be impeached for being a criminal. Which he was indeed.

But Nixon was a good President when you take a look at his foreign policy of detente with the Soviet Union, normalization of relations with the People's Republic of China. Or his environmental policy with the creation of the Environmental Protection Agency and the Clean Air Act Extension. Or his domestic record for helping school integration, reforming Social Security, creation of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Hell, we probably would have had universal health care by now if Nixon didn't step down.

Unfortunately for him, the fact that he is a criminal will always taint his Presidency and instead of being one of the best, he will be remembered as being one of the worst because of Watergate.

[jaguarr]

Nixon was in all actuality a great president. Probably the best of the past fifty years outside of Johnson.

Dude....no. :dry:

jag

[hippie_hunter]

Well first Hillary and Obama are not idiots far from it! they re just different and thats scare a lot of people. I'm wiling to to take that chance if it s not working I ll move on!

I'm not saying that they are idiots. But I am saying that they aren't suited for the Presidency. People like Richardson, Huckabee, Biden, and Paul are more suited than them.

[Steve Rogers]

He stepped down because he was going to be impeached for being a criminal. Which he was indeed.

But Nixon was a good President when you take a look at his foreign policy of detente with the Soviet Union, normalization of relations with the People's Republic of China. Or his environmental policy with the creation of the Environmental Protection Agency and the Clean Air Act Extension. Or his domestic record for helping school integration, reforming Social Security, creation of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Hell, we probably would have had universal health care by now if Nixon didn't step down.

Unfortunately for him, the fact that he is a criminal will always taint his Presidency and instead of being one of the best, he will be remembered as being one of the worst because of Watergate.
Which is how I feel about Clinton. I felt he was a fine president who will forever be remembered as the lying hornball.

But I agree. Apart from Watergate, Nixon was great. So was Lyndon Johnson.

[SuBe]

He stepped down because he was going to be impeached for being a criminal. Which he was indeed.

But Nixon was a good President when you take a look at his foreign policy of detente with the Soviet Union, normalization of relations with the People's Republic of China. Or his environmental policy with the creation of the Environmental Protection Agency and the Clean Air Act Extension. Or his domestic record for helping school integration, reforming Social Security, creation of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Hell, we probably would have had universal health care by now if Nixon didn't step down.

Unfortunately for him, the fact that he is a criminal will always taint his Presidency and instead of being one of the best, he will be remembered as being one of the worst because of Watergate.
Thanks, I didn't know that about Nixon. I need to study more on the past presidents.

[jaguarr]

He stepped down because he was going to be impeached for being a criminal. Which he was indeed.

But Nixon was a good President when you take a look at his foreign policy of detente with the Soviet Union, normalization of relations with the People's Republic of China. Or his environmental policy with the creation of the Environmental Protection Agency and the Clean Air Act Extension. Or his domestic record for helping school integration, reforming Social Security, creation of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Hell, we probably would have had universal health care by now if Nixon didn't step down.

Unfortunately for him, the fact that he is a criminal will always taint his Presidency and instead of being one of the best, he will be remembered as being one of the worst because of Watergate.


Nixon handed privatized health care over to Kaiser Permanente on a silver platter, so I seriously doubt that.

jag

[ANTOINE X]

They aren't idiots but they also aren't the best choices for president. Why should we elect Hilary and Obama over more qualified candidates who would be better for the job simply because they have a different skin color or a vagina?

I'm not saying that they are idiots. But I am saying that they aren't suited for the Presidency. People like Richardson, Huckabee, Biden, and Paul are more suited than them.


everyone have his own opinion you say there not quailify no body can tell until we see them in action.

[Varient]

I'm not observing his behavior in those threads. I'm talking about THIS
thread. Now you have 3 options.

1) Cool down and debate civilly.
2) Don't debate at all.
3) Have a nice probation period.

This is your last warning.

Interesting.

You put a time period (3 years) where you tell me you don't experience him being combative.

I tell you the last time he was openly combative.
You switch out and tell me you are not talking about anywhere but here.

You then threaten to bann me probationally unless I accept mess from Erzengel,.. because for the last three pages with exception of him I have been civil,.. I have gone back and forth with you and Hippy Hunter w/o talking down to anyone and even explained my position.

So you tell me:

I must be civil when others are not?
I must not debate because I won't let someone slide by on being unecessarily rude, without a response in kind?

Example: I tell Erzengel to stop being insulting,.. his response is that i need to not nit pick him cause I don't like when others do it to me,.. which of course refers to his previous attacks and his spin on what he thinks is happening here.

Of course his saying that was in no way rude,... he wants the right to express himself in a manner and have no one take offense. And if they do,... it's on them?

Meanwhile he keeps it going because of course he already knows both sides of the convo?

trip.

Which reminds me,... I gave you what you asked for,... a ref with three sources on your primary argument that Obama has "little experience" esp with foriegn affairs - and you didn't respond to prove otherwise.

V.

[Matt]

If you were a share holder would you hand the reigns of your fortune 500 company to someone whose sole experience was a few years in marketing just to see how they'd do as CEO?, Antoine.

[hippie_hunter]

Which is how I feel about Clinton. I felt he was a fine president who will forever be remembered as the lying hornball.
Meh, sure he's a criminal for lying, but it's nowhere near as bad as Nixon's crimes. He'll be remembered for lying, but he'll also be remembered for the good he's done.

But I agree. Apart from Watergate, Nixon was great. So was Lyndon Johnson.
Johnson was great too, but his lies that got us into Vietnam unfortunately put him on par with Bush.

[jaguarr]

Matt, if I might chime in, I think you may be putting some unfair criteria on Varient. Lord knows I've had my disagreements with him and Erz is my boy, but I'm not seeing Varient doing anything that Erz is not in the way of antagonizing one another, to be honest. Takes two to tango and all that. Just my two cents. Carry on bashing each other.

jag

[Matt]

Erzengel was not being combative in this thread Varient. He was joking with Antoine, something you stuck your nose into. Again, let it go. You've been warned. This isn't about Erzengel, it is about you. Once more and you can have a few days off.

[SuBe]

If you were a share holder would you hand the reigns of your fortune 500 company to someone whose sole experience was a few years in marketing just to see how they'd do as CEO?, Antoine.
I heard that exact same quote on Foxnews this morning. Hmm...

I didn't know you would watch that "Right-Wing" Machine "News" channel like I do. :yay:

[Matt]

Matt, if I might chime in, I think you may be putting some unfair criteria on Varient. Lord knows I've had my disagreements with him and Erz is my boy, but I'm not seeing Varient doing anything that Erz is not in the way of antagonizing one another, to be honest. Takes two to tango and all that. Just my two cents. Carry on bashing each other.

jag

This dispute stemmed from Varient butting into a joke comment that Erz made to Atoine (which he laughed about) telling ERz that he was being rude. In other words, Varient started it.

[Steve Rogers]

Meh, sure he's a criminal for lying, but it's nowhere near as bad as Nixon's crimes. He'll be remembered for lying, but he'll also be remembered for the good he's done.


Johnson was great too, but his lies that got us into Vietnam unfortunately put him on par with Bush.
Well I think that Clinton, Johnson and Nixon and probably every other president proves what I've thought all along: None of them are perfect. They all screw up. I think sometimes we forget that they are human beings who make mistakes. Same as us.

Yeah, I used to hate Johnson for Vietnam, and while I still don't agree with it, Johnson's social programs i.e. The Great Society intrigued me. I also think of man dedicated to Civil Rights when I think of him.

[Matt]

I heard that exact same quote on Foxnews this morning. Hmm...

I didn't know you would watch that "Right-Wing" Machine "News" channel like I do. :yay:

I actually don't. I was unaware that quote was on Fox NEws. It is simply how I see the election process, like a job interview where we OUGHT TO BE looking for the best candidate, regardless of race, sex, creed, religion, or party.

[ANTOINE X]

If you were a share holder would you hand the reigns of your fortune 500 company to someone whose sole experience was a few years in marketing just to see how they'd do as CEO?, Antoine.

Well this is exactly why I don't want a man in place cause all you care is money. There s other serious problem than busyness, but to answer your question if they r are not experienced then theyll have helpers and this is not because you don't have experience that you wont be good in the future!

[jaguarr]

This dispute stemmed from Varient butting into a joke comment that Erz made to Atoine (which he laughed about) telling ERz that he was being rude. In other words, Varient started it.

Two to tango, Matt. And at this point, you've sort of cut in on Erz and generated far more discussion about all of it than if you'd told EVERYONE to knock it off instead of just singling out a single dancer (to keep with the analogy). That's all I'm sayin'. :)

jag

[Varient]

This dispute stemmed from Varient butting into a joke comment that Erz made to Atoine (which he laughed about) telling ERz that he was being rude. In other words, Varient started it.

NO.

The dispute started when ERz butted into our convo (You and I) by asking ME where you called me a fool.

Meh.

[Matt]

NO.

The dispute started when ERz butted into our convo (You and I) by asking ME where you called me a fool.

Meh.

Erzengel simply said that he didn't see where I insulted you. He did not come out swinging like you did. Really Varient, you've been warned. Drop it. NExt time I am really going to have to probate you.

[Matt]

Two to tango, Matt. And at this point, you've sort of cut in on Erz and generated far more discussion about all of it than if you'd told EVERYONE to knock it off instead of just singling out a single dancer (to keep with the analogy). That's all I'm sayin'. :)

jag

Point taken. But in this thread, I really didn't see Erz doing the wrong.

[comicgirl]

Assuming you are right Kel (and you may very well be)...I must ask, why hasn't Paul's candidacy picked up more steam. Or Kucinich. I mean, they seem like the two most likely to actually change things....I think I can answer that best by saying.....who??

[raybia]

They aren't idiots but they also aren't the best choices for president. Why should we elect Hilary and Obama over more qualified candidates who would be better for the job simply because they have a different skin color or a vagina?

The problem though is that many people, whether they admit it or not will not vote for Obama or Hilary because of race and gender. The history of this country and the voting patterns of its demographics supports this statement.

[Bishop]

The problem though is that many people, whether they admit it or not will not vote for Obama or Hilary because of race and gender. The history of this country and the voting patterns of its demographics supports this statement.

i think it's just as bad to vote for obama or hilary on the basis of race or gender and not on whether or not they're fit for the job.
obama is quite capable, though, and i'm fairly confident he'll make an excellent president. hillary not so much.

[raybia]

i think it's just as bad to vote for obama or hilary on the basis of race or gender and not on whether or not they're fit for the job.
obama is quite capable, though, and i'm fairly confident he'll make an excellent president. hillary not so much.

I agree its just as bad but my point is that more people in the history of Presidential elections have voted against candidates due to gender and race than those who have voted because of it.

We can discuss all day long the the idealistic fashion to vote for the next president but in reality the media will be the one deciding the election, or in other words, it a popularity contest and the masses will make an uninformed decision as always.

Thats the price we, the United States of America, pays for not using our intelligence and not involving ourselves in the political process.

[Sincere]

:huh: you're kind of being a big hypocrite.
first of all, maybe you should grow some balls and start working harder so they don't give your job to some Mexican.
second, they're not taking jobs, it's not like you go to the restroom come back and there's a Mexican sitting on your chair, give me a break :whatever:.
the people that leave Mexico don't so so because of the corruption, they leave because it's a third world country where they get 1/10 what they get for doing the same job twice as hard.
there's little to no problem for Mexicans to protest as you should know if you knew anything about Mexico and had all those imaginary Mexican friends you keep saying you have.
you should ask them about the recent election and the continuous and sometimes obnoxious protests that some people launched against the government.
you should ask them about the people that have marched through the Main streets of Mexico demanding this or that, or the people that took the Mexico City University campus for almost a year.
all in protest, you don't fix a country by protesting, or else the US wouldn't be in Iraq would it?
don't be dumb it has nothing to do with being a "sheltered liberal" and everything to do with at least having passing knowledge of whatever it is you happen to be talking about.

I have big black balls so that isnt a problem for me. The Mexican immigrants do not effect me and my family because we are upper middle class. But that doesent change the fact that Americans are losing jobs. One of my uncles runs a landscaping buisness in which he fired all of the american men and replaced them with immigrants. He pays these guys jack ****, and is making a killing off of their backs. Both sides are losing. Immigrants are being exploited, and our citizens are losing their jobs.

[Mr Sparkle]

I have big black balls so that isnt a problem for me. The Mexican immigrants do not effect me and my family because we are upper middle class. But that doesent change the fact that Americans are losing jobs. One of my uncles runs a landscaping buisness in which he fired all of the american men and replaced them with immigrants. He pays these guys jack ****, and is making a killing off of their backs. Both sides are losing. Immigrants are being exploited, and our citizens are losing their jobs.

I'm sure you mean "affect" as an upper middle class American citizen surely knows proper spelling.
however, from your own example seems like the people giving Jobs away are the American people themselves huh? firing their workforce and replace them with illegal immigrants to exploit.
and it's the immigrants fault?
what next? statutory rape blamed on those "super sexy" ten year olds?:huh:

[deemar325]

What the word

[Matt]

The problem though is that many people, whether they admit it or not will not vote for Obama or Hilary because of race and gender. The history of this country and the voting patterns of its demographics supports this statement.

And that is just as bad as voting for them because of their skin color or gender.

[Matt]

...I think I can answer that best by saying.....who??

Touche :csad:

[deemar325]

I'm keeping it real, I'm voting for brah, because he's a brother and he got the credentials.

[raybia]

And that is just as bad as voting for them because of their skin color or gender.

Yes it is but is also the reality of the situation. We are a society that has severe hang ups with diversity.

[raybia]

I have big black balls so that isnt a problem for me. The Mexican immigrants do not effect me and my family because we are upper middle class. But that doesent change the fact that Americans are losing jobs. One of my uncles runs a landscaping buisness in which he fired all of the american men and replaced them with immigrants. He pays these guys jack ****, and is making a killing off of their backs. Both sides are losing. Immigrants are being exploited, and our citizens are losing their jobs.

So its people like your uncle exploiting Mexican immigrants that is the problem.

How about we solve the problem of unwanted Mexican immigrants by severely fining companies who hire them and handing out jail time.

[ANTOINE X]

And that is just as bad as voting for them because of their skin color or gender.

No its not bad! And they re not just black or just a woman. A Woman dont' behave the same as man they re different. And just by electing someone different it means something it means you want a change of life!

[Matt]

No its not bad! And they re not just black or just a woman. A Woman dont' behave the same as man they re different. And just by electing someone different it means something it means you want a change!

Isn't that a bit sexist? I mean, I thought we were supposed to believe everyone was equal.

[ANTOINE X]

Isn't that a bit sexist? I mean, I thought we were supposed to believe everyone was equal.

That s not sexist! Who is doing all those war?Man or woman? Don't get me wrong i am proud to be a man but I also no that In man world it s like to be in a jungle! Like I say before. Man did good things but socially he has a lot to learn and there is nothing to be a shame to learn from a woman! That doesn't mean we wont come back we will but for now we need to be mature step down for while and learn.

[Matt]

That s not sexist! Who is doing all those war?Man or woman? Don't get me wrong i am proud to be a man but I also no that In man world it s like to be in a jungle! Like I say before. Man did good things but socially he has a lot to learn and there is nothing to be a shame to learn from a woman! That doesn't mean we wont come back we will but for now we need to be mature step down for while and learn.

That is such a naive belief. Greed caused the war in Iraq, not sexual organ.

[ANTOINE X]

That is such a naive belief. Greed caused the war in Iraq, not sexual organ.

Well as far as Im concern most of the people ruling the world are men so let see what woman can do.

Men are courageous smart but their big ego is sometime a big problem even dangerous to the entire world!

[raybia]

That is such a naive belief. Greed caused the war in Iraq, not sexual organ.

When you think about it, many men try to get as much sex as possible. Greed spurred on by desire.

[raybia]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/19/washington/19spend.html?hp

Where can I go to find out how each senator voted?

[Varient]

Erzengel simply said that he didn't see where I insulted you. He did not come out swinging like you did. Really Varient, you've been warned. Drop it. NExt time I am really going to have to probate you.

Look Matt,.. your bias is obvious to me.

At the point where YOU tell me where "I" got offended when someone outside my convo butted in and irritated me,.... I can see that no matter how it's sliced and how your buddy dances,.. he does no wrong and in a thread full of folk "swinging" I'm the only one who is giving offense as far as you are concerned.

And yes,.. butted in,... he asked me specific - he didn't ask the general thread.

Is it because you can't keep saying Obama has no experience? You claimed that he would be walked all over by folk from other countries because he lacks experience,.. I posted something to counter this.

I once said that in this Country Obama could be the second coming of Christ and he still couldn't get elected because he's the wrong color.

Your thread is kinda proving this. I don't vote on color,.. kind of a moot thing at this point because at presidential levels there has only been one color. (officially)

I also said that we are at least a decade before America matures enough to vote in a black president,... and that would only be if the guy's a prodigy, and I would expect that there would be numerous attempts on his life.

Unfortunate that we as a country don't learn from history.
We almost lost WW2 because of this attitude, we tie our hands as far as competing in the world on tech, social, and business because of this attitude, our education system sucks because of this attitude,.....

We have a long way to go and it unfortunate that each time we advance it's because we have to crack heads to get enough people to think vice feel on the important matters.

On this topic "you can't understand" why someone would support Obama. Right at this moment he at least has me listening to him because he appears a lot more honest than louder voices out there AND the reasons why people should not vote for him remain flimsy to me in the light of what has come before.



V.

[YsoSerious]

America already voted for a black president. Isn't Bill Clinton more black than Barack Obama?

[Kelly]

Look Matt,.. your bias is obvious to me.

At the point where YOU tell me where "I" got offended when someone outside my convo butted in and irritated me,.... I can see that no matter how it's sliced and how your buddy dances,.. he does no wrong and in a thread full of folk "swinging" I'm the only one who is giving offense as far as you are concerned.

And yes,.. butted in,... he asked me specific - he didn't ask the general thread.

Is it because you can't keep saying Obama has no experience? You claimed that he would be walked all over by folk from other countries because he lacks experience,.. I posted something to counter this.

I once said that in this Country Obama could be the second coming of Christ and he still couldn't get elected because he's the wrong color.

Your thread is kinda proving this. I don't vote on color,.. kind of a moot thing at this point because at presidential levels there has only been one color. (officially)

I also said that we are at least a decade before America matures enough to vote in a black president,... and that would only be if the guy's a prodigy, and I would expect that there would be numerous attempts on his life.

Unfortunate that we as a country don't learn from history.
We almost lost WW2 because of this attitude, we tie our hands as far as competing in the world on tech, social, and business because of this attitude, our education system sucks because of this attitude,.....

We have a long way to go and it unfortunate that each time we advance it's because we have to crack heads to get enough people to think vice feel on the important matters.

On this topic "you can't understand" why someone would support Obama. Right at this moment he at least has me listening to him because he appears a lot more honest than louder voices out there AND the reasons why people should not vote for him remain flimsy to me in the light of what has come before.



V.


Varient, we are on a message board......if people "butting into your convo..." as you say, irritates you......this may not be the place for you. Threads like these are going to always bring in, at some point, some heated debate.........that's just how it goes. You are not at a private table in a bar somewhere drinking a beer.....you are on an open forum.....where "all" ideas and opinions are going to be read......so "butting in" is kind of a lost term here.....

BTW, my post to you is not about opinion.......its just about the message board as a whole....


Post on..............

[Varient]

Comment : Boy the media is just digging pits to try to bury republicans,...
This mornings news was all about how seriously they should take Edwards and the thousands of dollars that went to some woman somewhere,....

Then they tried to bury huckabee with saying he has "moderate views" but swings too far to the right BECAUSE of his religion.

Since when does the media take the lead from Blogs (where the Edwards story originated) or decide that having a belief was a political indicator,.. (I thought JFK kinda popped this?)

Man,.. this just gets uglier and uglier,... where is Ross P?

V.

[Varient]

Varient, we are on a message board......if people "butting into your convo..." as you say, irritates you......this may not be the place for you. Threads like these are going to always bring in, at some point, some heated debate.........that's just how it goes. You are not at a private table in a bar somewhere drinking a beer.....you are on an open forum.....where "all" ideas and opinions are going to be read......so "butting in" is kind of a lost term here.....

BTW, my post to you is not about opinion.......its just about the message board as a whole....


Post on..............
Shouldn't you be saying this to the two that accused me of "butting into" convo first?

I can be "irritated" and move on as long as everyone else can do the same.

In this case You are reading my response AFTER someone had issue with my "butting in." in the first place.

On a thread where you can erxpect "heated debate" I'm being directed to behave myself by a mod while mud is being slung all around us.

You and I "understand" the concept,....................



V.

[Kelly]

Shouldn't you be saying this to the two that accused me of "butting into" convo first?

I can be "irritated" and move on as long as everyone else can do the same.

In this case You are reading my response AFTER someone had issue with my "butting in." in the first place.

On a thread where you can erxpect "heated debate" I'm being directed to behave myself by a mod while mud is being slung all around us.

You and I "understand" the concept,....................



V.

Then speak to the mod in PM's, where I'm sure you can come to an understanding....

ActuallyI only used your post as a sounding board for the entire concept......hopefully to be read and "understood" by all....:yay:

[Matt]

The difference between what you and Erzengel did, is the fact that you ATTACKED him over what he said to Antoine as opposed to him simply asking you a question over your point.

[deemar325]

Oogie Boogie

[Spider-Bite]

Why do you support him? Really, I want to know. This entire Obama craze has been totally lost on me and I am curious as to what the appeal is. In all honesty, I also wonder, how many Obama supporters will come out and say they are voting for him on the grounds of him being black? (which I consider that just as bad as not voting for him on the grounds of his being black.) I ask because it seems he has taken a substantial lead in Iowa and it seems to that he lacks any kind of platform (sure, he will give vague ideas, but has never given a practical way to fund or carry out these grand schemes of his). He has no experience outside of 3 years in national politics, so that seems to me to be the equivilant of handing the reigns of a fortune 500 company to a CEO who has spent a few years in marketing. I can give a list of reasons why I support Richardson...I really wonder how many Obama voters can do the same (without using words like "He is fresh blood" or "He's an honest respectable guy....I know even though I've never met him"...y'know, using pseudo-reasons to cover up the fact that they are voting for him to show how 'liberal' they are)?

Note: I am not saying all Obama supporters are voting for him because he is charasmatic or black or trendy. I am simply asking to know why most people are supporting him.


I always wonder, why is Obama the "black" guy? He is just as white as he is black.

Respectable and honest is not a pseudo reason. It's a very good reason to vote for him. Almost every politician out there is corrupt, and we finally have a chance to have a guy that is not corrupt, and that is something to be excited about.

His freshness in this instance is working to his advantage, because his presidency wont be bogged down by owed favors and connections made along the way. I don't doubt it's a big part of why he isn't corrupt. He also doesn't have to be afraid of flip flopping when taking a position.

He was a legislature for 10 years before he was a senator.

Obama supports getting more energy from nuclear power, something I support. He supports more money for promoting alternative energy. He supports energy efficency regulations and voted in favor of mandatory something something gas mileage, when Hillary voted against it.

He has laid out a long and detailed plan for peaceful relations with Iran, which Hillary and Edwards have opposed.

Here I'm pointing out some key differences between him and the other options, but in addition to what I have mentioned here, Obama is a liberal. I'm a liberal. I am in agreement with him.

IN addition we can look to the past to see how a man will lead in the future. On Iraq he was right, and that says something about his future foreign policy decisions he might make.

[StorminNorman]

I always wonder, why is Obama the "black" guy? He is just as white as he is black.

Thats stupid. When people say "black" it has nothing to do with heritage. It has everything to do with skin color. In todays world if your skin is the color of Obama's - your considered black. Is it right? I'm not answering - but thats the way it is.

Respectable and honest is not a pseudo reason. It's a very good reason to vote for him. Almost every politician out there is corrupt, and we finally have a chance to have a guy that is not corrupt, and that is something to be excited about.

Few ever vote for people we KNOW to be corrupt. Obama is a life long politician - there is no reason to think he is any more pure than anyone else.

His freshness in this instance is working to his advantage, because his presidency wont be bogged down by owed favors and connections made along the way. I don't doubt it's a big part of why he isn't corrupt. He also doesn't have to be afraid of flip flopping when taking a position.

Lack of experience and lack of a record isn't necessarily as helpful for a candidate as you seem to believe...

He was a legislature for 10 years before he was a senator.

Exactly - so he isn't a political newcomer as you try to paint him as. He is a life long politician which means he probably is as corrupt as any of them. Also, it is worth noting that his attendence policy while in the Senate is laughable. I mean its incredibly absurd.

Obama supports getting more energy from nuclear power, something I support. He supports more money for promoting alternative energy. He supports energy efficency regulations and voted in favor of mandatory something something gas mileage, when Hillary voted against it.
Where does this money come from? He wants to raise taxes I suppose?

He has laid out a long and detailed plan for peaceful relations with Iran, which Hillary and Edwards have opposed.

I believe his plan so far is to meet personally with Iran's President? Where is a link to this entire plan, if you dont mind?

Here I'm pointing out some key differences between him and the other options, but in addition to what I have mentioned here, Obama is a liberal. I'm a liberal. I am in agreement with him.

Everyone running in the Democrat primary is a liberal - thats banner doesn't help promote him over any other candidate.

IN addition we can look to the past to see how a man will lead in the future. On Iraq he was right, and that says something about his future foreign policy decisions he might make.

If we assume he was right on Iraq (which we can't given his lack of record) being right once does not display a wealth of foreign policy knowledge.

[deemar325]

Can't get no blacker than Kenya.

[Spider-Bite]

[quote=StorminNorman;13694112]Thats stupid. When people say "black" it has nothing to do with heritage. It has everything to do with skin color. In todays world if your skin is the color of Obama's - your considered black. Is it right? I'm not answering - but thats the way it is.


I would look at that pigment and assume the person was mixed.

Few ever vote for people we KNOW to be corrupt. Obama is a life long politician - there is no reason to think he is any more pure than anyone else.
He rejected money from lobyists, unlike every other Presidential hopeful, so to say there is "no" reason is simply dishonest. That is a huge reason. Secondly, Obama has been investigated zeroe times.

Think back to high school. When you first got to a new school, did you know where to buy weed the minute you got there, or did it take a while for you to make connections?

It is possible that he hasn't been in the senate long enough to be corrupted.




Lack of experience and lack of a record isn't necessarily as helpful for a candidate as you seem to believe...

It depends on the candidate and the situation.


Exactly - so he isn't a political newcomer as you try to paint him as. He is a life long politician which means he probably is as corrupt as any of them. Also, it is worth noting that his attendence policy while in the Senate is laughable. I mean its incredibly absurd.


He's been running for President the whole time, and in many instances it was pointless to fly back to the other side of the country and cast the vote if known that it wont effect the outcome of the bill.

Where does this money come from? He wants to raise taxes I suppose?




With trade.


I believe his plan so far is to meet personally with Iran's President? Where is a link to this entire plan, if you dont mind?


As I mentioned in a different thread I'm trying to find it by going through MSNBC"s archives, but as you can probably imagine there are a lot of Obama articles and a lot of Iran articles to look through. It's taking longer than I though it would.

Everyone running in the Democrat primary is a liberal - thats banner doesn't help promote him over any other candidate.

Hillary has been trying for years to paint herself as a middle of the road democrat.




If we assume he was right on Iraq (which we can't given his lack of record) being right once does not display a wealth of foreign policy knowledge.

It counts, and it counts for a lot. And I wish people would quit debating in such a dishonest way. We know he was against it. He got up in front of crowds of supporters and reporters and gave speeches specifically about Iraq, prior to the invasion. He was dead opposed to it from the beginning, even though it was extremely unpopular and he was going to run for the senate. That is honesty. while some democrats voted for it out of political pressure, he was honest.

[EdRyder]

Im really annoyed with this continued stance that the senator has no record..
Ridiculous

· Voted against extending the Bush tax cuts on capital gains and dividends.

· Voted against permanently repealing the Death Tax. (Called the cuts a "Paris Hilton" tax break for "billionaire heirs and heiresses") · Voted against CAFTA.

· Voted YES on raising the minimum wage to $7.25 rather than $6.25.

· Opposed the lifting of $0.54 per gallon tariff on cheaper Brazilian ethanol. Said, "ethanol imports are neither necessary nor a practical response to current gasoline prices."

· Voted against the bankruptcy abuse bill.

· Opposes privatizing Social Security

· Voted against drilling in ANWR.

· Voted against confirmation of Sam Alito AND John Roberts as chief justice.

· Voted against extending the PATRIOT Act's wiretap provision.

· Opposed any bans on partial birth abortions

Hes been so consistent with his vote,its difficult to frame in attack ads.So they just go with the whole "he has no record".

[Spider-Bite]

He also voted in favor of mandatory higher gas mileage, and the rescent energy bill as well. He has a record. It's just a clean record. Were so used to hearing all these negative things about everybody's record, that when we don't hear anything negative about Obama's record, we just assume he must not have one.

[R0rschach]

So, can anyone who isn't living in a cave (Osama) not notice what is going on?
This thing has taken off like a rocket.
I mean sure he was "hot" before but now it's just...amazing.

GO OBAMA!!!! :grin:

It seems to me anyway and I'm Dutch that Americans have somehow found a new hero.
After 8 years or tradegy I haven't seen you guys so hopefull and joyfull, all the bitterness and anger kinda made you guys boring to say the least. ;)

If I was American he'd have my vote.

ps. The world is looking and all over the world news the world is watching and from what I have seen up to now, the world is liking what is sees.

GO AMERICA!!!! :grin:

[Figs]

So say again, what's so great about Obama...?

[Genesis 1.0]

Nada.

[R0rschach]

OMG Obama Mania is making Hillary cry.

WTF????

MVlwH7-05Fk

[R0rschach]

So say again, what's so great about Obama...?

Ask Iowa!

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

So say again, what's so great about Obama...?

he has lots of great things to say, but he needs to back them up.

i mean, who knows, maybe he IS what this country needs.

but, i just don't feel comfortable enough about him at this time.

[Immortalfire]

So say again, what's so great about Obama...?

I too would like to know.

[jaguarr]

This thread is custom made to draw the ire and hate of Matt. Haha!

jag

[hippie_hunter]

Obama's only advantage is that he's charasmatic as hell and a lot of people are falling for it and his message of so called "change." He doesn't go into enough detail on his platform and the things he has gone into detail are just plain dumb.

I love the guy for making Hillary fall flat on her ass in Iowa, but I don't like him either.

[amazingfantasy15]

Obama's only advantage is that he's charasmatic as hell and a lot of people are falling for it and his message of so called "change." He doesn't go into enough detail on his platform and the things he has gone into detail are just plain dumb.

I love the guy for making Hillary fall flat on her ass in Iowa, but I don't like him either.

Well, it also helps that he doesn't look like the same middle/old aged white guy that's been running this country since the beginning. His message of change is working so well because there's enough dumb people in America who think someone who looks different is a great first step to effect change. His personality and looks will win this election.

[jaguarr]

I want Obama to win just so I can watch Matt rant and rave with the white hot hate of a thousand suns for the next four years. :D

jag

[R0rschach]

His message of change is working so well because there's enough dumb people in America who think someone who looks different is a great first step to effect change.

Well you guys did vote Bush into office..TWICE, so yeah..ok. :oldrazz:

[hippie_hunter]

Well you guys did vote Bush into office..TWICE, so yeah..ok. :oldrazz:

You have a point there :csad:

[R0rschach]

I want Obama to win just so I can watch Matt rant and rave with the white hot hate of a thousand suns for the next four years. :D

jag

That would be pure magic, I hope he's got a solid character and ain't a hypocrite. Hate to see him jump on the Obama bandwagon once he's the pres. :woot:

[Venom'sDad]

OMG Obama Mania is making Hillary cry.

WTF????

MVlwH7-05Fk

This is very laughable.... if any other person would have whelm up with tears, WITH THEIR EYES WIDE OPEN such as hers.... than something should have fell out. She obvious has Gator Tears.... this is so laughable. God i so hope I'm so wrong about her, but I fear I'm not.

This is the hope of the Democratic Party.... OMG!!! :hehe: :pal: :clown: :funny: :lmao: :grin:

[Carcharodon]

Bring Bill Back. :up:

[R0rschach]

Great article By Gail Russell Chaddock on Obama Mania.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1212/p01s01-uspo.html

[jaguarr]

This is very laughable.... if any other person would have whelm up with tears, WITH THEIR EYES WIDE OPEN such as hers.... than something should have fell out. She obvious has Gator Tears.... this is so laughable. God i so hope I'm so wrong about her, but I fear I'm not.

This is the hope of the Democratic Party.... OMG!!! :hehe: :pal: :clown: :funny: :lmao: :grin:

Yeah, she should be up for an Oscar. She's so damn insincere and fake and I don't know how anyone falls for that crap from her.

jag

[Wilhelm-Scream]

You should've made it one word, "Obamamania".

[Erzengel]

Whatcha going to do America, when Obamamania runs wild on you!!!!

[R0rschach]

Bring Bill Back. :up:

72I4tjUlCwE

^^^LOL

[R0rschach]

You should've made it one word, "Obamamania".

Would you Americans be able to read that?? :huh:
j/k ;)

[jaguarr]

Whatcha going to do America, when Obamamania runs wild on you!!!!

Make the Macho Man his running mate and I'm totally down for the vote. :up:

jag

[Erzengel]

Make the Macho Man his running mate and I'm totally down for the vote. :up:

jag
You want Hillary as his running mate? :huh:

[Malice]

Bring Bill Back. :up:

Blasphemer!

[Carcharodon]

72I4tjUlCwE

^^^LOLBill FTW.

With respect to the video specifically, he was commenting on the fact that Hillary isn't appealing to the majority of the voting public simply because of her sex and personal appeal (which is, admittedly, lacking...though he wouldn't go so far as to say that). That's all. Taken completely out of context.

[Apollo]

I want Obama to win just so I can watch Matt rant and rave with the white hot hate of a thousand suns for the next four years. :D

jag

:yay::up:

[jaguarr]

You want Hillary as his running mate? :huh:

As long as she goes "Ohhhhhhyeahhhhhhh! SNAP INTO A SLIM JIM!!!!!" at every press conference, sure.

jag

[Malice]

Yeah, she should be up for an Oscar. She's so damn insincere and fake and I don't know how anyone falls for that crap from her.

jag


I trully cant see why anyone likes her...
She is one of the most fake people I have seen

[R0rschach]

Barack Obama: The Mania and the Mirage

http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40

[EdRyder]

As long as she goes "Ohhhhhhyeahhhhhhh! SNAP INTO A SLIM JIM!!!!!" at every press conference, sure.

jag

"Snap INTO THE SENATE!!"

[R0rschach]

Bill FTW.

With respect to the video specifically, he was commenting on the fact that Hillary isn't appealing to the majority of the voting public simply because of her sex and personal appeal (which is, admittedly, lacking...though he wouldn't go so far as to say that). That's all. Taken completely out of context.

I know that, I'm just not so sure she's very happy with his comments.

[R0rschach]

Make the Macho Man his running mate and I'm totally down for the vote. :up:

jag

First thing on the agenda ----> A rap album????? :huh: :grin:

[Carcharodon]

Blasphemer!Yeah, sorry. A frigid ***** and a naive, potentially spineless, inexperienced politician are much better choices than a guy that can do the job one hundred times better than the Chimp we've had in office for the past eight years.

[jaguarr]

"Snap INTO THE SENATE!!"

And then she clothes-lines Nancy Pelosi and drops the big elbow on her from the top rope.

jag

[Carcharodon]

I know that, I'm just not so sure she's very happy with his comments.He might be easier on her if she hadn't had her vagina sewn shut ages ago. We all know that the Lewinski scandal was Hillary's fault. :csad:

[Metamorpho1977]

Obama's only advantage is that he's charasmatic as hell and a lot of people are falling for it and his message of so called "change." He doesn't go into enough detail on his platform and the things he has gone into detail are just plain dumb.

I love the guy for making Hillary fall flat on her ass in Iowa, but I don't like him either.

There was another charismatic guy that ran a country one time too. He ran on a platform of change too way back in the 1930s in Berlin. I don't want to be so harsh, just the similarities in Hippies description are similar to that guy.

[Carcharodon]

There was another charismatic guy that ran a country one time too. He ran on a platform of change too way back in the 1930s in Berlin....Obama wants to kill white Jews. That's like 99.99% of the Jewish population.

[R0rschach]

O'Reilly desperately wants Obama's attention. :woot:

1rcMCiAGyIQ

[bored]

There was another charismatic guy that ran a country one time too. He ran on a platform of change too way back in the 1930s in Berlin.

You did not seriously just compare Barack Obama to Adolph Hitler. PLEASE tell me I misunderstood you.

[Matt]

I want Obama to win just so I can watch Matt rant and rave with the white hot hate of a thousand suns for the next four years. :D

jag

If he wins, I'll give him a chance. If he becomes Nancy Pelosi's lap dog (as I am sure he will)...I will rant and rave with the white hot hate of a thousand suns for the next four years :woot: