Clemens, Pettitte, McNamee asked to testify to Congress

[Spidey-Bat]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080104/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_congress_clemens

WASHINGTON - Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte were asked Friday to testify before a congressional committee on Jan. 16, along with their former trainer, Brian McNamee.

Also invited to appear before the House Oversight Committee were former Mets clubhouse attendant Kirk Radomski, whose allegations were a central part of last month's Mitchell report on doping in baseball. Former All-Star second baseman Chuck Knoblauch also was asked to speak to the panel.

A day earlier, the committee is to hear testimony from baseball commissioner Bud Selig, union leader Donald Fehr and former Senate majority leader George Mitchell

McNamee told Mitchell he had injected Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone during the 1998, 2000 and 2001 seasons. Clemens, in an interview to be broadcast by CBS's "60 Minutes" on Sunday, said McNamee injected him with vitamins and painkillers but not performance-enhancing drugs.

Pettitte admitted McNamee injected him with HGH twice while the pitcher was recovering from an injury.

The panel also convened a March 2005 hearing, when Mark McGwire refused to say whether he had used performance-enhancing drugs. Sammy Sosa said he had never knowingly used illegal performance-enhancing drugs. Rafael Palmeiro denied using drugs but tested positive later that year for a steroid.

Clemens is done.

[NewYorkSpider]

Yeah, Clemens is screwed. He should have came out like Pettite did last month. Now he's going to be charged with perjury.

[Nightmare]

I cant wait to see them up there stumbling over themselves. Just like Mcgwire and Palmeiro

[kane9321]

this is gonna be fun..you can lie to mike wallace, but ya cant lie to congress

[NewYorkSpider]

Is anyone watching "60 Minutes" with Roger Clemens right now. You can tell in his face that he's lying. It's so hilarious when he gets asked a question, cause he just says "it didn't happen". He also hesitates with some of his questions.

[Dark Donnie]

Posted this in the other thread

Clemens Sues for Defamation (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3184646)

[E. Nygma]

Yeah, Clemens is screwed. He should have came out like Pettite did last month. Now he's going to be charged with perjury.

Only if he lies!

We all know he's telling the truth, and that B12 is administered through injections with a needle :whatever:

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I think he's telling the truth.

It's sad, how far down this country as gone. It's supposed to be Innocent until proven guilty.

How do you prove your innocent where evidence doesn't exist?

I mean, you can prove guilt by having incriminating evidence...but how do you prove innocence?

If you ask me, Clemens is being treated unfairly. There's no evidence, no smoking gun, no paper trail, no seller's to coroberate...just an angry little man who was scared to go to jail, and probably was co-herced into saying what he said.

Clemens seemed nervous last night, which makes sense when you consider the situation he's in.

And, he's doing what everyone said he was supposed to. He's suing! He's filing a suit! Yet, right now...everyone over at ESPN is railroading him on him filing a suit.

And B12 does get administered through injections too. Tons of athletes get it. Tons.

[E. Nygma]

I think he's telling the truth.

It's sad, how far down this country as gone. It's supposed to be Innocent until proven guilty.

How do you prove your innocent where evidence doesn't exist?

I mean, you can prove guilt by having incriminating evidence...but how do you prove innocence?

If you ask me, Clemens is being treated unfairly. There's no evidence, no smoking gun, no paper trail, no seller's to coroberate...just an angry little man who was scared to go to jail, and probably was co-herced into saying what he said.

Clemens seemed nervous last night, which makes sense when you consider the situation he's in.

And, he's doing what everyone said he was supposed to. He's suing! He's filing a suit! Yet, right now...everyone over at ESPN is railroading him on him filing a suit.

And B12 does get administered through injections too. Tons of athletes get it. Tons.

Is that you Rocket?

[Spidey-Bat]

I think he's telling the truth.

It's sad, how far down this country as gone. It's supposed to be Innocent until proven guilty.

How do you prove your innocent where evidence doesn't exist?

I mean, you can prove guilt by having incriminating evidence...but how do you prove innocence?

If you ask me, Clemens is being treated unfairly. There's no evidence, no smoking gun, no paper trail, no seller's to coroberate...just an angry little man who was scared to go to jail, and probably was co-herced into saying what he said.

Clemens seemed nervous last night, which makes sense when you consider the situation he's in.

And, he's doing what everyone said he was supposed to. He's suing! He's filing a suit! Yet, right now...everyone over at ESPN is railroading him on him filing a suit.

And B12 does get administered through injections too. Tons of athletes get it. Tons.

Clemens may be innocent. If he is, he is going out about this the wrong way. He took 5 days to respond to the Mitchell investigation. He had his YouTube video (a ****ing YT video!) several weeks after. Then almost a month later he appears on 60 minutes.

On top of this, look at the stats. He was awful at the end of his tenure in Boston, and then becomes amazing. In 2004 he had an incredible year with the Astros and he was over 40. No strict work out can do that alone.

Another thing, Brian McNamee had to tell the truth. If he didn't, federal prosecutors would have charged him. Here's what the idiot said:
"What did McNamee gain by lying?"

"Evidently not going to jail," Clemens says.

How does lying get him out of going to jail if lying was going to get him prosecuted?

[Dark Donnie]

Clemens may be innocent. If he is, he is going out about this the wrong way. He took 5 days to respond to the Mitchell investigation. He had his YouTube video (a ****ing YT video!) several weeks after. Then almost a month later he appears on 60 minutes.

On top of this, look at the stats. He was awful at the end of his tenure in Boston, and then becomes amazing. In 2004 he had an incredible year with the Astros and he was over 40. No strict work out can do that alone.

Another thing, Brian McNamee had to tell the truth. If he didn't, federal prosecutors would have charged him. Here's what the idiot said:


How does lying get him out of going to jail if lying was going to get him prosecuted?

He wasn't awful im sure his run support was terrible. He had a mid 3 ERA, but still pitched 6 CG and 2 SHO's

[Nightmare]

Wow what a phone conversation. Mack Amay kept saying over and over to Clemens "Tell me what you want me to do"

[Spidey-Bat]

He had an ERA of 4 or higher in '93 and '95. His last year he 3.6 ERA, but 1.3 WHIP and 106 BB. He was breaking down.

[NewYorkSpider]

Very interesting phone conversation between Clemens and McNamee. They bring up a good point about McNamee never saying "you took steroids" in the conversation or "yes it is" when Clemens says that it wasn't the truth. McNamee sounded like he was very sorry in the conversation that this was effecting Clemens family.

[E. Nygma]

McNamee and Clemens conversation was so bland. Neither guy blatantly came out and said "i never took steroids" "you never took steroids" "i took steroids" "you took steriods". It was a pretty wasted convo.

[E. Nygma]

and they dont argue the whole time......McNamee never defends his claims. I'm not so sure he didn't know that he was being taped.

[NewYorkSpider]

Clemens repeatedly said "I want the truth to come out". How come McNamee never said "you know it's the truth" or "you know you did it"? Clemens still hasn't proved to me he didn't take steroids, but the conversation brought up good points for both Clemens and McNamee. Clemens knew he was being taped, so he wasn't as pissed. McNamee on the other hand swore multiple times and got angry.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Clemens may be innocent. If he is, he is going out about this the wrong way. He took 5 days to respond to the Mitchell investigation. He had his YouTube video (a ****ing YT video!) several weeks after. Then almost a month later he appears on 60 minutes.

His lawyers advised him no to. He's got to listen to his lawyers, that's they're jobs...to advise him.

On top of this, look at the stats. He was awful at the end of his tenure in Boston, and then becomes amazing. In 2004 he had an incredible year with the Astros and he was over 40. No strict work out can do that alone.


I disagree, in a way. Not just strict work outs...but incredible drive, and talent...which Clemens has. His numbers are great, but not to the point that Barry Bonds was in how it ballooned.

Another thing, Brian McNamee had to tell the truth. If he didn't, federal prosecutors would have charged him. Here's what the idiot said

He was caught up in a Federal case. He was screwed. Which, funny enough, sounds like he probably was coerced...they told him to tell the "truth" as a get out of jail card. I mean, c'mon...if they sway you into letting you know what they wany, you can give it to them.


How does lying get him out of going to jail if lying was going to get him prosecuted?



He was already going to jail. Then, after he got caught up in his own little storm...the Mitchell investigators were told who he was, and they went to talk to him and to cut a deal.

So, yeah...lying would have helped get him out of jail, since he was already looking at doing time.

[Spidey-Bat]

His lawyers advised him no to. He's got to listen to his lawyers, that's they're jobs...to advise him.
Awful advice. I've heard some people in the legal business on TV say he should have filed the suit Dec 14.

I disagree, in a way. Not just strict work outs...but incredible drive, and talent...which Clemens has. His numbers are great, but not to the point that Barry Bonds was in how it ballooned.
They are. Strict workouts don't get you 106 BB to 68 BB in one season.

He was caught up in a Federal case. He was screwed. Which, funny enough, sounds like he probably was coerced...they told him to tell the "truth" as a get out of jail card. I mean, c'mon...if they sway you into letting you know what they wany, you can give it to them.
He told the truth about Pettitte. Why does he lie about Roger?

He was already going to jail. Then, after he got caught up in his own little storm...the Mitchell investigators were told who he was, and they went to talk to him and to cut a deal.

So, yeah...lying would have helped get him out of jail, since he was already looking at doing time.
If he had to lie to get out of jail, wouldn't he lie by saying Clemens DIDN'T take steroids? Clemens isn't going to begin this massive campaign to prove him wrong. It would be much easier for him to get away by lying that Clemens didn't take steroids than if he lied saying he did.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Wow what a phone conversation. Mack Amay kept saying over and over to Clemens "Tell me what you want me to do"


Clemens laywer did state that he was worried that McAmee was trying to set up Clemens, so if Clemens had said "I want you to come with me on Monday", could have been seen as Clemens trying to force him, coherce him, or trying to buy him back to hold against him in court. As witness tampering, which is why they released the tape now because of the reports coming out about witness tampering.

That phone conversation helped Clemens, I think.

He had an ERA of 4 or higher in '93 and '95. His last year he 3.6 ERA, but 1.3 WHIP and 106 BB. He was breaking down


Or having an off-year. Supposedly, even when he stopped using...he still got better, if you believe McAmee.

Clemens repeatedly said "I want the truth to come out". How come McNamee never said "you know it's the truth" or "you know you did it"? Clemens still hasn't proved to me he didn't take steroids, but the conversation brought up good points for both Clemens and McNamee. Clemens knew he was being taped, so he wasn't as pissed. McNamee on the other hand swore multiple times and got angry.


There was a part in the conversation...near the beginning...where Roger tells McAmee "there's so much out there that's just untrue".....and if you listen for it, McAmee whispers "I know, I know."

The whole "tell me what you want me to do" smelled as if McAmee wanted Clemens to force him to do something. Remember, Clemens had his lawyers there holding him back from saying stuff, so not screw themselves over in court.

And..Clemens said he'll testify infront of Congress...and not use the "I cannot answer" reply everyone on ESPN said he was going to do.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Awful advice. I've heard some people in the legal business on TV say he should have filed the suit Dec 14.



Maybe. But, I doubt the lawyer thought it'd be this big a **** storm. His lawyer, did say the blame is on himself and not Roger.


They are. Strict workouts don't get you 106 BB to 68 BB in one season.



C'mon, you have guys who have off seasons...where suddenly they're off they're game. Or, we'll have dudes that have a great year...and never get back on it. Injuries, that we don't know about could affect things. And the offense.

I think his workouts keep him in shape to perform, and not breakdown to pieces at his age.


He told the truth about Pettitte. Why does he lie about Roger?



Because Clemens is big fish. If you check the Mitchell Report, Clemens is the biggest one. Pettite is not a Hall Of Famer, and not a 7-time CY Young Award Winner. The Mitchell investigators had to know about Clemens and Pettite being friends, so it's not hard to imagine them pushing him toward there. I'm not saying they forced him to lie...but maybe they hinted at it. Investigators who hold a cookie over your head always want more, and I'm thinking they wanted more than just Andy.

If he had to lie to get out of jail, wouldn't he lie by saying Clemens DIDN'T take steroids? Clemens isn't going to begin this massive campaign to prove him wrong. It would be much easier for him to get away by lying that Clemens didn't take steroids than if he lied saying he did.

Dude...he cut a deal. He was facing jail time, and they came to him wanting information. He said he didn't know anything, and then they fell on him harder for information...letting him know he had a deal on the table.

If you think about it, he must have been desperate. He wanted to get out of jail time, and knew by telling the investigators what they WANT to hear would get him out.

[Spidey-Bat]

C'mon, you have guys who have off seasons...where suddenly they're off they're game. Or, we'll have dudes that have a great year...and never get back on it. Injuries, that we don't know about could affect things. And the offense.

I think his workouts keep him in shape to perform, and not breakdown to pieces at his age.
His run support has nothing to do with control. Strict workouts don't improve your control. Guys who have insane BB numbers and then significantly lower ones are usually awful mechanically and then fixed. Clemens is not one of those players.

Because Clemens is big fish. If you check the Mitchell Report, Clemens is the biggest one. Pettite is not a Hall Of Famer, and not a 7-time CY Young Award Winner. The Mitchell investigators had to know about Clemens and Pettite being friends, so it's not hard to imagine them pushing him toward there. I'm not saying they forced him to lie...but maybe they hinted at it. Investigators who hold a cookie over your head always want more, and I'm thinking they wanted more than just Andy.
Pettitte is still a high profile name.

Dude...he cut a deal. He was facing jail time, and they came to him wanting information. He said he didn't know anything, and then they fell on him harder for information...letting him know he had a deal on the table.

If you think about it, he must have been desperate. He wanted to get out of jail time, and knew by telling the investigators what they WANT to hear would get him out.

The deal was tell us all you know and you won't have to go to jail. The deal wasn't "we want you to tell us information and we want you to say certain players used PEDs and you won't go to jail". No matter what, if he lied he was facing federal prosecution. The idea that the investigators strong armed him into lying is just stupid.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

His run support has nothing to do with control. Strict workouts don't improve your control. Guys who have insane BB numbers and then significantly lower ones are usually awful mechanically and then fixed. Clemens is not one of those players.



So...he used steroids and that gave him control???

I'd imagine the ball would maybe jump more or something...

He's a hard worker, and I think it's easier to read steriord use with a hitter. With Pitchers...what do you look at? His strikeouts? His hits? What?


Pettitte is still a high profile name.


Semi.

He's big in New York.

But Clemens is a huge deal. A huge deal. A Hall Of Famer. Petitte is none of those. He's a big name, but not as big as any of the others in the report.

The deal was tell us all you know and you won't have to go to jail. The deal wasn't "we want you to tell us information and we want you to say certain players used PEDs and you won't go to jail". No matter what, if he lied he was facing federal prosecution. The idea that the investigators strong armed him into lying is just stupid.

Nobody said he was strong armed.

But, they let him know what they wanted and about who they wanted. They let him know. He said Clemens did not use, until he finally took the deal.

And McAmee mentioned during the phone convo that they're holding jail time over his head. He's got as good a reason to stick to his "lie" as people say for Clemens, because he really doesn't want to go to jail.

[NewYorkSpider]

Pettitte would be more recognizable if he wasn't in Clemens shadow every where they played.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

If he wasn't injury prone, and not had left New York for 3 or 4 years...he probably would be more recognizable.

There was point where he seemd like Griffey, breaking down some seasons.

[Spidey-Bat]

So...he used steroids and that gave him control???
Control shows he was breaking down.

I'd imagine the ball would maybe jump more or something...

He's a hard worker, and I think it's easier to read steriord use with a hitter. With Pitchers...what do you look at? His strikeouts? His hits? What?
Innings pitched. Steroids help improve stamina with pitchers. He pitched 191.7, 170.7, and then 140 innings from '93-'95. He started working out harder which got him to 242 innings in 96. 1997 he had his breakout where he pitched 264.7 innings and exceptionally well. He took the steroids because he wasn't going to pitch many innings AND be very good without them.

Semi.

He's big in New York.

But Clemens is a huge deal. A huge deal. A Hall Of Famer. Petitte is none of those. He's a big name, but not as big as any of the others in the report.
He's still a significant player. It's not like he's Grant Roberts.


Nobody said he was strong armed.

But, they let him know what they wanted and about who they wanted. They let him know. He said Clemens did not use, until he finally took the deal.
You're implying he was forced to say Clemens took steroids.

And McAmee mentioned during the phone convo that they're holding jail time over his head. He's got as good a reason to stick to his "lie" as people say for Clemens, because he really doesn't want to go to jail.
If he was avoiding jail time, wouldn't he deny Clemens took steroids? If they didn't believe him, Clemens would back him up. If he want to lie to stay out of jail, saying Clemens didn't take steroids is a better way than saying he didn't.




http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/01/06/2008-01-06_on_60_minutes_roger_clemens_says_steroid.html

Here's an interesting excerpt from the article:
If Clemens repeats his denials when he appears before the House Oversight Committee on Jan. 16, a lawyer close to the scandal told the Daily News that the Yankee great would be practically daring the government to open a criminal investigation.

"There are at least five other people who will be able to corroborate McNamee's story, starting with Andy Pettitte," said the lawyer, who spoke on the condition he not be named. "Andy is not going to lie."

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Control shows he was breaking down.



Or a millions other things.


Innings pitched. Steroids help improve stamina with pitchers. He pitched 191.7, 170.7, and then 140 innings from '93-'95. He started working out harder which got him to 242 innings in 96. 1997 he had his breakout where he pitched 264.7 innings and exceptionally well. He took the steroids because he wasn't going to pitch many innings AND be very good without them.



And yet....he supposedly stopped...and maintained his level of game.

Why would he have stopped? Why'd he maintain his level of play?


He's still a significant player. It's not like he's Grant Roberts.



Yeah.

But, he's not any bigger than any of the names on the report. Don't you think it's even remotely possible that he could have mentioned Petitte...and the Investigators instinctively thought of Clemens with guilt by association?

And, McNamee knows about roids. He was caught up in a Federal case on Sterioids, which is how he got cornered to begin with.


You're implying he was forced to say Clemens took steroids.



Coherced.

Convinced.

Forced, means they broke his arm and kicked his ass. They didn't do that.

I think they simply got a man who was in a very very desperate situation.


If he was avoiding jail time, wouldn't he deny Clemens took steroids? If they didn't believe him, Clemens would back him up. If he want to lie to stay out of jail, saying Clemens didn't take steroids is a better way than saying he didn't.



That's the thing, though. So he can get out of jail...he NEEDS to give them something. He can't simply say "he didn't do anything", and then they get him out of jail. He needs to give them something, so that they'll scratch his back.


If Clemens repeats his denials when he appears before the House Oversight Committee on Jan. 16, a lawyer close to the scandal told the Daily News that the Yankee great would be practically daring the government to open a criminal investigation.

"There are at least five other people who will be able to corroborate McNamee's story, starting with Andy Pettitte," said the lawyer, who spoke on the condition he not be named. "Andy is not going to lie."


I think the counter sue thing was trying to call Clemens on a bluff. They wanted to scare Clemens lawyers into thinking twice about filing a suit.

The very interesting aspect here will be Andy Petitte. I cannot wait to see how he testifies infront of Congress on this, and his relation to Clemens on this.

And I'd hold Petitte's word higher than some guy who's last name keeps getting spelled differently everytime I see it.

There has been a lot of bad information leaking though, like the rumor that Clemens was going to be sued for obstruction of justice in trying to force a witness to say something, which was the phone convo that was released. The rumor that the phone call was like 2 hours long or something....when it was only like 16 minutes.

My stance on this is, I don't know McNamee. I saw him on TV working out with Clemens a few years ago, and that's it. I can't find any pictures online, other than that work out picture, and nothing else on him.

He seems desperate, and cornered. And there's no proof provided by Mitchell's report. If there was a paper trail, or more than one guy to support McNamee. The defamation suit against McNamee blantly says that McNamee lied because he was pressured by investigators, and told to give up Clemens to not go to jail.

I'm sorry, I know we're in the steroid era...and yes, I am Rocket fan. But, I need more than the word of someone I know little to nothing about on this. Even a paper trail, or a receipt. Or a seller, since McNamee said that numerous times Clemens brought his own steroids...so if true, there's got to be another seller or another guy out there to support him.

And, really...if Clemens is guilty, may God be with him...because IF he is..he made things worse. If there's a hard drive somewhere, or someone out there, or even the smallest paper trail to lead to him...he'd be crucified in court, and probably have to do jail time at this point since it's become a legal battle.

It's just something that looks too confident a move for a guilty man to try, I think. It's why nobodies ever filed a defamation suit before, or really gone this far.

[Spidey-Bat]

Or a millions other things.
Other things? Yes. Millions? Not at all.

And yet....he supposedly stopped...and maintained his level of game.

Why would he have stopped? Why'd he maintain his level of play?
Contrary to what he believes, steroids aren't a "quick fix".

But, he's not any bigger than any of the names on the report. Don't you think it's even remotely possible that he could have mentioned Petitte...and the Investigators instinctively thought of Clemens with guilt by association?
And what if he mentioned Clemens first?

Coherced.

Convinced.

Forced, means they broke his arm and kicked his ass. They didn't do that.

I think they simply got a man who was in a very very desperate situation.
You're still implying the investigators got him to say Clemens was involved. McNamee is so far a credible source. Pettitte backed up his claims and 4 others can do the same once Clemens' law suit begins.

That's the thing, though. So he can get out of jail...he NEEDS to give them something. He can't simply say "he didn't do anything", and then they get him out of jail. He needs to give them something, so that they'll scratch his back.
He gave them other names. Clemens was not the only one.

I think the counter sue thing was trying to call Clemens on a bluff. They wanted to scare Clemens lawyers into thinking twice about filing a suit.

The very interesting aspect here will be Andy Petitte. I cannot wait to see how he testifies infront of Congress on this, and his relation to Clemens on this.

And I'd hold Petitte's word higher than some guy who's last name keeps getting spelled differently everytime I see it.
What does that have to do with anything? The people who are misspelling his name are people on message board. In the papers it's correct.

The defamation suit against McNamee blantly says that McNamee lied because he was pressured by investigators, and told to give up Clemens to not go to jail.

No.
The lawsuit also implies that McNamee was pressured into identifying Clemens specifically

I'm sorry, I know we're in the steroid era...and yes, I am Rocket fan.
Well there's your problem right there.

It's just something that looks too confident a move for a guilty man to try, I think. It's why nobodies ever filed a defamation suit before, or really gone this far.
Roger Clemens has a giant ego. He's a complete idiot and psychopath. Just look at how he is in the 60 minutes interview and this press conference. Not only is he incapable of producing one coherent thought, he's incredibly defensive and enraged that he has to defend himself. He thinks he's owed respect and the benefit of the doubt because of his career, but he isn't. He's not a saint on or off the field.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Other things? Yes. Millions? Not at all.



Okay.

Many other things.

I'll be more literal from now on.


Contrary to what he believes, steroids aren't a "quick fix".



Sure they are. They brittle your body, and strain your're heart for the short bursts of what they provide. I don't think the effects can last an enitre year with one use, could they?


And what if he mentioned Clemens first?



Far as I know, he didn't. He denied Clemens had used for a quite a while. I think we'll learn more on what went down in his interview on the 16th.


You're still implying the investigators got him to say Clemens was involved. McNamee is so far a credible source. Pettitte backed up his claims and 4 others can do the same once Clemens' law suit begins.



I don't think Petitte can back his claims, because McNamee paints a picture of a regualr steroid user in Clemens...while Petitte was not. He barely used, really. Only twice over the course of two days. I think if Clemens was a regular user, Petitte probably would have been as well.

The four other sources sounds fishy, because it should have been in the Mitchell report.

He gave them other names. Clemens was not the only one.


Well, wasn't he caught up in a federal case on steroids? The dude did have connections, it's why he was in jail in the first place.


What does that have to do with anything? The people who are misspelling his name are people on message board. In the papers it's correct.



You're humor needs some work, man.

The point of the name thing is that nobody knows who he is. He's got no public profile, he's not known firsthand by many, there's little to no information on him I can find, few phots if any as well...the only stuff is archive footage I can see.

It's just strange for me to take the word of a guy who won't even go on TV or do an interview or something...it's like some mystery voice or something simply pointing a finger. If I had to take someone's word, I'd have to go with Clemens because his word holds more value and because he's the only one facing the media.


No.


Yeah, it does. In the suit, the documents filed to court...that's the case being made.

I wasn't speaking metaphorically or making conclusions. That's the case being made in the Defamation suit.


Well there's your problem right there.



No, it's not.


Roger Clemens has a giant ego. He's a complete idiot and psychopath. Just look at how he is in the 60 minutes interview and this press conference. Not only is he incapable of producing one coherent thought, he's incredibly defensive and enraged that he has to defend himself. He thinks he's owed respect and the benefit of the doubt because of his career, but he isn't. He's not a saint on or off the field.


If he's innocent...he should be angry.

If he was cool and relax, he'd be guilty as hell. He's defensive because he's already been judged. You think he's guilty? Tons of people think he's guilty? People made up they're minds before he even said a word.

He's got to be angry, pissed off. If he's innocent, that is. I'd find it incredibly strange if he was laid back and didn't care.

Barry Bonds did that...and well....there ya go.

And I think he has earned the benifit of the doubt. Nobody says he's a saint...don't know where that comment came from.

You said my problem was that I was Clemens fan. But I think your problem is that you're a Clemens hater.

[Matt]

Am I the only one who finds it disconcerning that there has yet to be an investigation as to why we were given false information to go to war and the people who championed this false information (Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Powell, etc) have not been subpeona'ed to testify under oath, but major league baseball players are testifying about steroid use?

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yes.

That's ****ing scary, how real and down to earth a statement that is.

[Spidey-Bat]

Okay.

Many other things.

I'll be more literal from now on.
Now name them.

Sure they are. They brittle your body, and strain your're heart for the short bursts of what they provide. I don't think the effects can last an enitre year with one use, could they?
It depends on the frequency and amount you use them. One injection doesn't last a year but it lasts a long time.

Far as I know, he didn't. He denied Clemens had used for a quite a while. I think we'll learn more on what went down in his interview on the 16th.
Was he denying that Clemens used them when he was under federal investigation?

I don't think Petitte can back his claims, because McNamee paints a picture of a regualr steroid user in Clemens...while Petitte was not. He barely used, really. Only twice over the course of two days. I think if Clemens was a regular user, Petitte probably would have been as well.
Pettitte admitting it adds credibility to what McNamee has said that was in the Mitchell investigation. Just because one used steroids doesn't mean the other would. Clemens would get injections in his apartment.

The four other sources sounds fishy, because it should have been in the Mitchell report.
Their testimony could be about Clemens specifically and the investigation may not have known about them. The Mitchell investigation wasn't going to track down every steroid supplier or everyone who knew what was going on.


Well, wasn't he caught up in a federal case on steroids? The dude did have connections, it's why he was in jail in the first place.
Yes. He gave them other names in addition to Clemens. Him getting out of jail wasn't dependent upon whether he could link Clemens to steroids.

You're humor needs some work, man.
I wasn't going for humor.

The point of the name thing is that nobody knows who he is. He's got no public profile, he's not known firsthand by many, there's little to no information on him I can find, few phots if any as well...the only stuff is archive footage I can see.
And your research is what? Entering his name in Google?

It's just strange for me to take the word of a guy who won't even go on TV or do an interview or something...it's like some mystery voice or something simply pointing a finger. If I had to take someone's word, I'd have to go with Clemens because his word holds more value and because he's the only one facing the media.
So do you believe Isiah Thomas that he didn't sexually harass Anuca Brown-Sanders because you can see him? Honestly, that's some of the dumbest reasoning I've heard. Personally, I'll believe the guy who was facing federal prosecution if he lied.

Yeah, it does. In the suit, the documents filed to court...that's the case being made.

I wasn't speaking metaphorically or making conclusions. That's the case being made in the Defamation suit.
The case is that McNamee's testimony was false and made with malice which has damaged Clemens' reputation and made him susceptible to financial injury. It only implies that McNamee was forced by the investigators to link Clemens to steroids.

No, it's not.
It is because it is bias.


If he's innocent...he should be angry.
He's angry to the point where he can't even produce one coherent thought. It hurts his case when he starts cursing and saying things like he's angry just looking at the people at the press conference. He's completely irrational and nothing justifies that.

[quote]If he was cool and relax, he'd be guilty as hell. He's defensive because he's already been judged. You think he's guilty? Tons of people think he's guilty? People made up they're minds before he even said a word.
Can you blame people for making a decision on him? It took him a week to respond. He should have made a statement Dec. 14.

He's got to be angry, pissed off. If he's innocent, that is. I'd find it incredibly strange if he was laid back and didn't care.

[quote]Barry Bonds did that...and well....there ya go.
Barry Bonds is never calm and under control. He's been an angry, arrogant prick his entire career.

And I think he has earned the benifit of the doubt. Nobody says he's a saint...don't know where that comment came from.
Yeah, you really deserve the benefit of the doubt when you're a notorious headhunter and throw broken bats at other players. He deserves nothing from the public.

You said my problem was that I was Clemens fan. But I think your problem is that you're a Clemens hater.
I hate anyone who cheats.

[Addendum]

And I need something more conclusive before I say he cheated

[Spidey-Bat]

And I need something more conclusive before I say he cheated

The same could be said for the opposite.

[Addendum]

Well, what evidence do we have? Canseco dropped his name in his book a couple years ago and provided nothing to back up his claim. There was the report last year about Jason Grimsley, which McNamee denied knowledge of usage by Clemens. Then in the Mitchell report, he changes his story.

So it's simply "he said, he said" regarding Clemens. Since the burden of proof falls upon the individual making the claim, in this case McNamee, it's not very convincing

[Spidey-Bat]

Clemens doesn't have any proof.

[Addendum]

"Burden of proof" means that someone stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this." Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the responsibility of the person who is making the bold claim to prove it. In short, X is not proven simply because "not X" cannot be proven.

Since McNamee made the initial claim, it is his responsibility to prove it. Since this will likely go to the courtroom, it will be the prosecution's responsibility to prove it.

[Spidey-Bat]

"Burden of proof" means that someone stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this." Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the responsibility of the person who is making the bold claim to prove it. In short, X is not proven simply because "not X" cannot be proven.

Since McNamee made the initial claim, it is his responsibility to prove it. Since this will likely go to the courtroom, it will be the prosecution's responsibility to prove it.

That means Clemens.

[Addendum]

If I made a claim about you, you wouldn't have to prove anything. The burden of proof would fall on me to back up my claim. Even if you sued me, I would still have to prove that what I said about you.

In a criminal case, Clemens would be the defendant. The prosecution in the criminal case is the government (city, state, or federal). In a civil case, Clemens would be the plaintiff.

[Spidey-Bat]

McNamee has some form of proof if his testimony was in the Mitchell report.

[Addendum]

Of course I have to take him at his word though, since this "proof" has yet to show up

[E. Nygma]

And I need something more conclusive before I say he cheated

Not that a skeptical tape conversation really proves to anyone that he's innocent.

[Jerry!]

Spidey-Bat

We don't know if McNamee knew or not that call was being recorded. If he did, he fooled me because he was getting emotional at some points during the call. Clemens couldn't outright ask him to go out and tell the truth because that would be coercing a federal witness. And that would open up a whole new book of problems for him. That's why all he said was "I need someone to tell the truth" and that is why he didn't answer the countless times McNamee asked him "Tell me what you want me to do."

What Clemens and his laywer is saying is that it WAS dependent that McNamee connect Clemens to steroids in order to get out of jail. That would be the only basis of their argument. What other basis could they possibly go on?

This is not like Barry Bonds. You could make the argument about Clemens' stats, innings pitched, whatever. You could not physically see change in him like you could with Bonds. There should be no shadow of a doubt Bonds did steroids/HGH. Things happened to him physically that are humanely impossible without him having taken them. The skull does not grow like that without having taking them.

And stop with calling who is bias and who isn't Spidey. You're a ****ing Mets fan, you hate Clemens no matter what. You'd rant about him at every opportunity you had. Maybe it's just easier for me because I was always indifferent towards Clemens, but I can't go on McNamee's word alone when it looks like he may have lied about it to save his own ass. I'd really like to see his proof. I'm very interested to see what Pettite knows about this. But until that happens, until McNamee gives up some solid proof, I can't go on his words alone, especially given his situation at the time. That is what I don't think is fair, judging someone when nothing has been revealed to prove their guilt.

[Addendum]

And before Canseco wrote his book and dropped Clemens' name in it, no one ever put Clemens with steroids.

I agree about the Bonds stuff though. Something is fishy when a guy in his late 30's grows 3 hat sizes, a couple of shoe sizes, and puts on that much muscle when they play a sport where you're running most of the time. Plus the perjury charge makes you go "hmm".

With Clemens, no proof has yet to come out, either from Canseco (which will never happen since that would require something called "integrity" and "honesty"), or from McNamee. With the latter, that could change, but if he produces nothing, then Clemens did nothing wrong.

[Jerry!]

The thing is it's not just fishy, it's downright impossible to explain. The only way his head could have grown to that size was if he had taken steroids or he has a rare growth disease that I can't remember the name of, but one of which would have affected long before now.

[Addendum]

A while back, Keith Olbermann discussed Bonds on Countdown and said "Either he took steroids, or he's still going through a growth spurt and will soon dwarf the Empire State Building"

[E. Nygma]

A while back, Keith Olbermann discussed Bonds on Countdown and said "Either he took steroids, or he's still going through a growth spurt and will soon dwarf the Empire State Building"

I hope when i hit age 35 that my head doesn't grow like his did!

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Now name them.



Any slight mechanical change could have been the reason. Clemens is held as perfecting his motion, same as other long term successful pitchers. Marino Rivera, for instance. His control is usually imppecable. He's got a robotic motion which is usually the same. But, even he loses control from time to time. If his shoulder goes down slightly, and he gets under the ball...he can toss a riser that'll get away from him. Same with Clemens and countless other pitchers.

Fatigue. If he'd thrown a long amount of innings, or in extreme heat, or too many complete games, if he'd laid off the jogging for a few weeks...who knows? But he might have had to catch a second wind to regain his control.

Minor injuries. He could've had a minor nagging injury that hindered things to thow him off his motion.

Personal Problems. Could've had problems back home, arguments, whatever...that managed to boil up and get to him professionally. These dudes have lives. They're personal lives don't just freeze and stay still during the season, they have to deal with **** like life too.

Off-year...players have those too, don't they? Years where things just don't go well for them, and they fall off in one or more categories of stats.

I think I could name a few...but my point is control could be the cause of a minor issue or a bigger issue. You'd have to really crack the bank to see what was really going on there and take a look inside.


It depends on the frequency and amount you use them. One injection doesn't last a year but it lasts a long time.



But, regular uses do in time begin to deform and brittle whatever you're injecting. The effects probably last a long time, but in terms of a career or a season...it's probably not enough to take one shot a few or so times.

I mean, it is a quick fix...esepecially when you're talking about injury recovery HGH to try and coax over an injury.

I did hear an interesting comment on ESPN against the mindless moron Skip Bayless that cortisone shots should be seen in the exact same light because it is a performance enhancer and can brittle bones and muscle when using too many times.

I thought that was interesting.


Was he denying that Clemens used them when he was under federal investigation?



Supposedly, yeah. Far as I know, that's one of the points made in the suit against McNamee. That, suppodedly, McNamee denied and denied and denied until later. This was all while he was under the investigation and looking at serious jail time.

Anyone could take that anyway, too. You could look at it as him trying to protect his boy. Or him being spoon fed what they wanted.

This case is really incrediblly confusing. I mean, nothing really sides to either guy. Everything seems to be about POV or something...


Pettitte admitting it adds credibility to what McNamee has said that was in the Mitchell investigation. Just because one used steroids doesn't mean the other would. Clemens would get injections in his apartment.


Which is exactly the argument you could make to defend Clemens. Just because Pettitte used, doesn't mean that Clemens did either.

But, I find it strange that if Clemens was a regular user...as close as the media make them out to be in guilt-by-association...that Pettitte should have been as regular a user as Clemens was supposedly.

But, even then...if we believe Pettitte, which I think we can...he probably didn't see a thing. Unless he was there watching it all, and just decided to watch and not use.


Their testimony could be about Clemens specifically and the investigation may not have known about them. The Mitchell investigation wasn't going to track down every steroid supplier or everyone who knew what was going on.



I don't buy that, though. Because supposedly, the Mitchell investigation needed every shred of help it could find because they found so many obstacles and walls to block them from finding things out. I could buy them not knowing the sources, but you'd think if McNamee knew of them he'd had tossed them to Mitchell's people.


Yes. He gave them other names in addition to Clemens. Him getting out of jail wasn't dependent upon whether he could link Clemens to steroids.



That's the question though. I've heard reports saying that they wanted Clemens because of McNamee's connection to him. Let's say he gave up Petitte first and they simply assumed that Clemens had to be too, and that McNamee was protecting him. I mean, I could see it going down like that.

What we do need is to know exactly what happened between McNamee's and the fed and Mitchell's investigators...and just how everything went down, because there are too many questions about all of it that's been unanswered.

I'm hoping the Congressional hearing is where we'll hear details from McNamee himself.


I wasn't going for humor.


Well I often do. Keeps the edge off and takes the heat off of heated debates. Keeps me from getting banned, I must say.


And your research is what? Entering his name in Google?



But, that's my point. I know nothing about the guy. The first REAL look I've had him and his life was in the phone conversation with Clemens.

It just feels like he's a nameless, faceless thing against a guy who's been infront of the spotlight with his life examined, his career picked apart, and his image always in the forefront.

It's just...I dunno...hard for me to take McNamee serious on everything he says without knowing more about him. I'd really like to see him do an interview and see the same exact decipering of body movements, nerves, and his vocal tones that we all did on Clemens. Just seems more fair to me, to see McNamee more public now.


So do you believe Isiah Thomas that he didn't sexually harass Anuca Brown-Sanders because you can see him? Honestly, that's some of the dumbest reasoning I've heard. Personally, I'll believe the guy who was facing federal prosecution if he lied.



Well, to me the dumbest reasoning is to plow on a guy who had his name picked out by a guy who NEEDED to cut a deal.

Taking the word of a desprate, patethic, cornered man...is dumb.

And isn't Clemens putting himself under the gun, legally, now? If you can't believe either one is capable of lying...then you're being entire too gullible.


The case is that McNamee's testimony was false and made with malice which has damaged Clemens' reputation and made him susceptible to financial injury. It only implies that McNamee was forced by the investigators to link Clemens to steroids.



Which is why the suit is against McNamee and not the Federal Government.

I think the Feds and Mitchell's people were pressuring him because they thought he needed it, and if you believe McNamee then they were right in pressuring him the way they did, I suppose.


It is because it is bias.



No it's not. I could be a fan, and still recognize faults and flaws and guilt. I just think there needs to be more on Clemens before we talk about taking away his HOF licensce and hang him.

I just need more on him. I think that's fair, since they're trying to prove his guilt.


He's angry to the point where he can't even produce one coherent thought. It hurts his case when he starts cursing and saying things like he's angry just looking at the people at the press conference. He's completely irrational and nothing justifies that.



I don't know what the hell you were looking at...but he produced coherent thoughts. You're making it sound like he threw a chair and was about to tear one of the reporters head's off.

I think the Andy Pettitte question, and the way that vicious reporter TRIED hard to have Clemens condem and spit on Pettitte was probably what started the anger the most.

People wanted to see him angry. They wanted to see him sue. They wanted him to do Press Conference.

He did all those things, and people are still managing to create new reasons. For example, ESPN was crying...crying...and crying...about how the suit (which everyone on the network was demanding, if Clemens was truly innocent) that he'd done so now to plead the fifth infront of congress. They were crucifying Clemens on an assumption they made.

Until Clemens made clear that he would infact talk and speak freely, did it stop.

I think that type of stuff is part of the reason for his anger.

Again, if he's innocent...it seems like the natural reaction.


Can you blame people for making a decision on him? It took him a week to respond. He should have made a statement Dec. 14.



Do you buy what his lawyer said? About the legal advice thing? I mean...I do, but...Lawyers...lol...


Barry Bonds is never calm and under control. He's been an angry, arrogant prick his entire career.



At points, after being asked 10000 times the same question, he seemed to get pissed off out of annoyance.

But, remember...for a long time, he would answer those question coldy, as if it were any other question. I think it was that approach, which had alot of people judging him guilty so quickly.

I think Clemens did do something in his own favor that no other athlete has ever done.

He sued. That's helped him considerbly, I think.


Yeah, you really deserve the benefit of the doubt when you're a notorious headhunter and throw broken bats at other players. He deserves nothing from the public.



The headhunter thing is something that was built out of fear of the guy. Nobody can say he purposely tried to murder Mike Piazza with a fastball and the bat thing seemed reactionary to me.

I think he does deserve the beniefit of the doubt since he's really been good for the game. From what you've said...he probably doesn't deserve anything from other BASEBALL PLAYERS.


I hate anyone who cheats.


Do you think Andy Pettitte cheated? I mean, would you clasify that as cheating?

And what should happen to guys like Gagne, Lo Duca, or Tejada now...?

And how much proof do you need to KNOW someone cheated?

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, what evidence do we have? Canseco dropped his name in his book a couple years ago and provided nothing to back up his claim. There was the report last year about Jason Grimsley, which McNamee denied knowledge of usage by Clemens. Then in the Mitchell report, he changes his story.



Well, the Jason Grimsley thing was false. That was proven when the report was made public and Clemen's name wasn't in it.

And Canseco supposedly said that Clemens asked him about sterioids...which is useless to say, I think. On a side note, Canseco is apparently saying Alex Rodriguez is using because he thinks so. And that Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz are too.

I think he's just trying to sell his second book at this point.

Clemens doesn't have any proof.


But...how can he prove there's no evidence...?

That means Clemens.


But...how can he prove there's no evidence...?

McNamee has some form of proof if his testimony was in the Mitchell report


Not really, when the whole case is basically saying he's lying in that report.

We don't know if McNamee knew or not that call was being recorded. If he did, he fooled me because he was getting emotional at some points during the call. Clemens couldn't outright ask him to go out and tell the truth because that would be coercing a federal witness. And that would open up a whole new book of problems for him. That's why all he said was "I need someone to tell the truth" and that is why he didn't answer the countless times McNamee asked him "Tell me what you want me to do."


Apprarently, that's why the tape was released.

There were rapid rumors building, articles already, claiming that Clemens had interefered with a witness and that a suit for that was on it's way.

So, supposedly...Clemens Lawyer thought they needed to release it so that witness tampering wouldn't be an issue.

I'm very interested to see what Pettite knows about this. But until that happens, until McNamee gives up some solid proof, I can't go on his words alone, especially given his situation at the time. That is what I don't think is fair, judging someone when nothing has been revealed to prove their guilt.

I am too. People will look at everything he says very, very closely.

By the way...what the hell happened to the suit?

The one that McNamee's laywer swore would happen if Clemens denied? I remember that was all over tha place...and suddenly, no one mentions it anymore.

McNamee's laywer said that he would sue Clemens for defamation if he denied and called McNamee a liar...surely, that's still going to happen..right?

[Addendum]

Well, the Jason Grimsley thing was false. That was proven when the report was made public and Clemen's name wasn't in it.

And Canseco supposedly said that Clemens asked him about sterioids...which is useless to say, I think. On a side note, Canseco is apparently saying Alex Rodriguez is using because he thinks so. And that Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz are too.

I think he's just trying to sell his second book at this point.

Which is why I'm giving Clemens the benefit of the doubt, until conclusive proof comes out that shows Clemens took steroids.

As of right now, nothing has come out that makes me say "Clemens took steroids". We just have name dropping by Canseco to get people to buy his book, a redaction by a newspaper because it connected Clemens to the Grimsley thing because once the report on Grimsley was made public Clemens was not involved, and then the McNamee thing where nothing conclusive has come out.

As I said earlier, before Canseco's book no one ever put Clemens with steroids. To do so now with no evidence is being in error regarding the truth.

[E. Nygma]

Which is why I'm giving Clemens the benefit of the doubt, until conclusive proof comes out that shows Clemens took steroids.

As of right now, nothing has come out that makes me say "Clemens took steroids". We just have name dropping by Canseco to get people to buy his book, a redaction by a newspaper because it connected Clemens to the Grimsley thing because once the report on Grimsley was made public Clemens was not involved, and then the McNamee thing where nothing conclusive has come out.

As I said earlier, before Canseco's book no one ever put Clemens with steroids. To do so now with no evidence is being in error regarding the truth.

There is no tangible evidence against Clemens except the word of McNamee and common sense.

Common sense tells me that if Pettite and Clemens were basically inseperable team mates, good friends, who had the same trainer and both pitchers entering the twilight of their career. They probably at LEAST talked about Steroids. Pettite said he used HGH, are you telling me not one word of conversation took place between he and the Rocket? Even with all their connections. Come on.....

They'll never get Clemens on anything, but if Pettite admitted to it then Clemens pretty much had to be involved.

[Addendum]

There's a difference between talking about steroids and taking steroids

[Jerry!]

There is no tangible evidence against Clemens except the word of McNamee and common sense.

Common sense tells me that if Pettite and Clemens were basically inseperable team mates, good friends, who had the same trainer and both pitchers entering the twilight of their career. They probably at LEAST talked about Steroids. Pettite said he used HGH, are you telling me not one word of conversation took place between he and the Rocket? Even with all their connections. Come on.....

They'll never get Clemens on anything, but if Pettite admitted to it then Clemens pretty much had to be involved.

Who cares if they talked about it? How the hell would you even prove that if you wanted to? This is not even the main issue. I need to see McNamee's evidence. Again I repeat this, his word alone is not enough especially considering the situation he was in when he gave it.

[NewYorkSpider]

New name surfaces in the Clemens/McNamee saga.

Clemens/McNamee (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3205468)

[Spidey-Bat]

Who cares if they talked about it? How the hell would you even prove that if you wanted to? This is not even the main issue. I need to see McNamee's evidence. Again I repeat this, his word alone is not enough especially considering the situation he was in when he gave it.

Ask yourself these questions:
Who has the most to gain by lying? Roger Clemens. By lying, he saves his HoF credibility and name?
Who has the most to lose by lying? Brian McNamee. He lies and he goes to jail.
Who has the most to gain by telling the truth? Brian McNamee. By telling the truth, he avoids going to jail.
Who has the most to lose by lying? Roger Clemens. If it is true, his HoF credibility is gone and he'll forever be associated with steroid use in baseball along with Bonds.

[E. Nygma]

Ask yourself these questions:
Who has the most to gain by lying? Roger Clemens. By lying, he saves his HoF credibility and name?
Who has the most to lose by lying? Brian McNamee. He lies and he goes to jail.
Who has the most to gain by telling the truth? Brian McNamee. By telling the truth, he avoids going to jail.
Who has the most to lose by lying? Roger Clemens. If it is true, his HoF credibility is gone and he'll forever be associated with steroid use in baseball along with Bonds.

completely agree....great post :yay:

[Addendum]

Ask yourself these questions:
Who has the most to gain by lying? Roger Clemens. By lying, he saves his HoF credibility and name?
Who has the most to lose by lying? Brian McNamee. He lies and he goes to jail.
Who has the most to gain by telling the truth? Brian McNamee. By telling the truth, he avoids going to jail.
Who has the most to lose by lying? Roger Clemens. If it is true, his HoF credibility is gone and he'll forever be associated with steroid use in baseball along with Bonds.

Hey, that's not proof. Try again sport

[Jerry!]

Ask yourself these questions:
Who has the most to gain by lying? Roger Clemens. By lying, he saves his HoF credibility and name?
Who has the most to lose by lying? Brian McNamee. He lies and he goes to jail.
Who has the most to gain by telling the truth? Brian McNamee. By telling the truth, he avoids going to jail.
Who has the most to lose by lying? Roger Clemens. If it is true, his HoF credibility is gone and he'll forever be associated with steroid use in baseball along with Bonds.


You actually believe that if Clemens wins this case he will get his credibility back? At this point I think Clemens is just defending himself against false accusations for himself and his family, as far as getting any kind of respect or credibility back from baseball fans in general, forget it. It's not going to happen, not in this day and age in baseball. The fans have been duped for too long to have any kind of positive kind of outlook on any players in question, especially Clemens. The damage has already been done. You think he actually cares about the HoF if they still aren't going to believe him after this? Did you hear his last press conference? I keep saying this, and you keep ignoring it, it's gone beyond baseball now for Clemens. It is not about his legacy or being in the Hall of Fame.

[E. Nygma]

You actually believe that if Clemens wins this case he will get his credibility back? At this point I think Clemens is just defending himself against false accusations for himself and his family, as far as getting any kind of respect or credibility back from baseball fans in general, forget it. It's not going to happen, not in this day and age in baseball. The fans have been duped for too long to have any kind of positive kind of outlook on any players in question, especially Clemens. The damage has already been done. You think he actually cares about the HoF if they still aren't going to believe him after this? Did you hear his last press conference? I keep saying this, and you keep ignoring it, it's gone beyond baseball now for Clemens. It is not about his legacy or being in the Hall of Fame.

I think he does, i think he's saying that to make it seem like he doesn't. But Roger isn't going to want to be kept out of the Hall with his 350 wins and 7 CY Youngs and his World Titles and whatever else. If he can somehow prove that he never took steroids (although i believe he did) then he at least OFFICIALLY clears his name, which would mean Baseball would have to let him in.

[Jerry!]

It's one thing to not like the guy as a baseball player, for whatever reason, but to think at this point he is still worried about being in the Hall of Fame is getting kind of ignorant. He just wants to settle this so he never has to answer to it again in this kind of legal forum. The court of public opinion is still going to drop the hammer on him, he knows that, as demonstrated by you and Spidey Bat specifically among others here, and Clemens has already acknowledged that a lot of people, baseball fans have already judged him and nothing he does will change their mind. If he does clear his name it won't be enough for them. It's too late. All they needed was a reason, a more than just floating rumor.

It's not about being in the Hall of Fame, like he said, if/when he clears his name and they still are on the fence about him especially based on the word (because that's all we got right now) of a guy whose own life is upside down with a kid dying and him trying to get out of jail, then they can keep their vote, he doesn't want it.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Kinda seems like the tide is going in Clemens favor from the look of things on ESPN.

McNamee is looking horrible right now, and his refusal to even stand infront of a camera is strange to me.

And keeping syringes and stuff for 8 or 9 years....is creepy no matter how you look at it.

Why didn't he hand those over to Mitchell's people, though??

[Dark Donnie]

his reasoning behind it was because he was a cop and he was used to gathering evidence :huh:

[ChrisBaleBatman]

It's not making much sense, really.

This is the first time in the case, so far, that someone's being contradictory. Supposedly, he didn't trust Rocket so he hid vials and syringes for 8 years. Because he's a cop? Yet, he trusted Rocket enough to call him after tossing him under the bus...or emailing him for help and staying over at his home within the 6 years he was not working with Clemens.

And McNamee digging through Clmens trashcan for a beer can is strange too.

And him ONLY having the syringes for Clemens is too.

And him with holding the evidence from the start is too.

His lawyers are doing a horrible job too, with they're press coverage.


Stranger and stranger.

[Dark Donnie]

McNammee really sounds like an odd cat. Sounds like he had a real thing for Clemens.

[Dark Donnie]

I'll throw this in here as well

Roger Clemens-S-Yankees Feb. 8 - 4:17 pm et

Brian McNamee told congressional investigators Thursday that he injected Roger Clemens' wife with human growth hormone.

According to McNamee, Debbie Clemens used HGH before appearing alongside Roger in Sports Illustrated's swimsuit issue in 2003.
Source: New York Daily News

[Jerry!]

Need to see the proof.

[E. Nygma]

and Clemens people are saying that congressional investigators have yet to even ask him for a DNA sample....

[ChrisBaleBatman]

McNammee really sounds like an odd cat. Sounds like he had a real thing for Clemens.


The picture Clemens defense is painting of McNamee is starting to appear more plausible. Strange behaviors on the phone call, and everything in the past few weeks...like the 8 year held "evidence" and beer can he stole from Clemens trash.

I'll throw this in here as well



And stranger and stranger...

I mean, that kinda sounds like he just picked it out of thin air. Even if it is true, he probably shouldn't have mentioned it because of how odd and out of left field it sounds. If he had proof of it, then it'd be something to mention...but it just seems like he's low blowing Clemens by mentioning his wife.

and Clemens people are saying that congressional investigators have yet to even ask him for a DNA sample....


Yeah, which is strange as well...

I mean, McNamee's lawyers made it sound like the end all be all evidence, and challenged Clemens to turn in his DNA.

But why the Feds or Congress, or nobody official, has jumped on this and demanded anything...is odd.

This is by far, one of the strangest things to come off off field controversy.

On, and this just came out:

Apparently, proof that McNamee lied in the Mitchell report about Clemens being at Canseco's party:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7775610/Lawyer:-There's-proof-Rocket-wasn't-at-Canseco-party?MSNHPHMA

Lawyer: There's proof Rocket wasn't at Canseco party

WASHINGTON (AP) - A lawyer for Roger Clemens (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/player/85259) said Saturday the pitcher can prove he didn't attend a June 1998 party at Jose Canseco's home described by Brian McNamee in the Mitchell Report.


According to McNamee, Clemens first raised the subject of steroids not long after McNamee saw Canseco and Clemens meeting during the party.


Clemens' side has turned over evidence to congressional investigators, including an affidavit from Canseco, to support that the pitcher wasn't present at Canseco's home that day, the attorney, Rusty Hardin, said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.

Hardin said video footage from telecasts of baseball games around the time of the party also were given to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. During the telecasts, Hardin said, TV announcers can be heard discussing Canseco's party and noting that Clemens wasn't there.
A person familiar with the committee's investigation confirmed to the AP the affidavit and video were turned over and are in Clemens' favor. The person spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the investigation.

The House panel is examining former Senate majority leader George Mitchell's report on drug use in baseball, and a public hearing Wednesday is expected to focus on Clemens' denials of what his former personal trainer, McNamee, alleged. McNamee told Mitchell he injected Clemens at least 16 times with steroids and human growth hormone in 1998, 2000 and 2001.
"One of the things the committee is going to hear on Wednesday is about this party that is supposed to have started this whole thing," Hardin said. "Roger wasn't even at this party."

Asked about what Hardin said, one of McNamee's attorneys, Richard Emery, replied: "It may be that he wasn't there for the whole time, but he was there at some point. ... His kids were there, his wife was there, and he was there."

The first mention of Clemens' name in the Mitchell Report is on page 167. On the very next page comes McNamee's account of "a lunch party that Canseco hosted at his home in Miami."

"McNamee stated that, during this luncheon, he observed Clemens, Canseco, and another person he did not know meeting inside Canseco's house, although McNamee did not personally attend that meeting," the Mitchell Report says.

The report goes on to say that Canseco told Mitchell's staff "he had numerous conversations with Clemens about the benefits of Deca-Durabolin and Winstrol and how to 'cycle' and 'stack' steroids."

The report continues: "Toward the end of the road trip which included the Marlins (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71614) series, or shortly after the Blue Jays (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71600) returned home to Toronto, Clemens approached McNamee and, for the first time, brought up the subject of using steroids. Clemens said that he was not able to inject himself, and he asked for McNamee's help."

Hardin said that last week Clemens' camp sent a lawyer to interview Canseco, whose book about steroids in baseball, "Juiced," prompted Congress to hold hearings in March 2005. According to Hardin, Canseco said Clemens was not at the party.

Canseco did not immediately respond to a telephone message Saturday night.

His lawyer, Robert Saunooke, said he was unaware of an affidavit but added that he could confirm Canseco has spoken to lawyers for Clemens recently.

As described by Hardin, the video footage turned over to the committee includes one announcer making reference to Canseco's party and saying Clemens didn't show up. Another announcer, Hardin said, then adds that he saw Clemens playing golf that day.

Hardin said Clemens has a receipt for greens fees from that day.
Hardin hopes the committee will show the video during Wednesday's hearing, he said, "and let the public see how dramatic and clear it is that Roger obviously was not at the very party that McNamee is testifying started this whole thing. It's the foundation of it."

Clemens raised the discrepancy about the party during at least some of his various face-to-face meetings with representatives Thursday and Friday.
"He told me he was never there," said Rep. Paul Kanjorski, a Pennsylvania Democrat. "They have physical, hard evidence that he was never there."
Kanjorski was one of seven lawmakers Clemens with Friday, raising the two-day total to 19 - nearly half of the 41 on the committee.
"Roger made it clear with all the congressmen he was talking to: He wasn't challenging the Mitchell Report," Hardin said. "He was simply challenging the part of it that dealt with him that's based on what McNamee says."

[Dark Donnie]

Clemens mentioned that Congress told him that no DNA test would be asked of him unless a perjury case was brought against him.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Which kinda makes McNamme turning over his evidence useless right now, doesn't it?

Oh, and unlike McNammes lawyers...I think Pettitte's dispostion will have a huge effect on this case.

And, he won't lie.

I mean, when under oath...doesn't that mean you're speaking in the name of God, and to lie is sinning since you're swearing to God?

Well, anyone who knows Pettitte knows he's a deeply religious man. He never travels without a bible, and is a man of strong faith.

So, unless I'm wrong about the rules of speaking under oath...I think there's no way a man of Pettite's belief would lie under oath.

[Nightmare]

OMG John ROcker ratted out selig!!

[Spidey-Bat]

Hey, that's not proof. Try again sport
Didn't say it was proof. Just something to think about.

You actually believe that if Clemens wins this case he will get his credibility back?
His Hall of Fame credibility, yes. If he is proven innocent, he has a significantly greater chance of being elected. The public opinion has no effect on his HoF credibility. Bonds is widely hated but he'll likely get elected.

[Dark Donnie]

Andy Pettitte-S-Yankees Feb. 12 - 10:35 am et

Newsday.com reports that an affidavit given by Andy Pettitte generally supports Brian McNamee's claims against Roger Clemens.

While the details in their affidavits are different, both Pettitte and McNamee are thought to have given the House Oversight Committee similar stories that indicate Clemens injected illegal substances. Clemens has filed a separate affidavit that says both Pettite and McName are mistaken. He claims that Pettitte is wrong in thinking that when they discussed medications he was referring to HGH or steroids. All of their affidavits will become public at a public hearing tomorrow.
Source: Newsday
Related: Roger Clemens

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yeah, it looks like Andy just buried Clemens.

I think it's got to be the most destructive thing against Rocket, really.

[kane9321]

Its on right now

[Showtime]

I just turned it on. What has happened so far?

[Fran]

Man, I'm gonna watch this thing all-day.

[danoyse]

Right now McNamee is being grilled about why he kept the gauze pads and needles for 5 years, if he feels so bad about turning him in to the Mitchell report.

[Figs]

Started watching this getting ready for work this morning.

Sad to say, Clemens is going down. He keeps digging himself a bigger ditch with everything he says.

He should have just told the truth because now he could easily face jail time.

[Fran]

Man, some of these reps are RIPPING into them! :woot:

[Dark Donnie]

Started watching this getting ready for work this morning.

Sad to say, Clemens is going down. He keeps digging himself a bigger ditch with everything he says.

He should have just told the truth because now he could easily face jail time.

Unless there is recorded evidence, or some sort of testing that proves he took HGH, I think he won't do jail time. Perjury is one of the hardest things to prove, that's at least what I've heard when they discuss the Bonds trial.

[Figs]

Unless there is recorded evidence, or some sort of testing that proves he took HGH, I think he won't do jail time. Perjury is one of the hardest things to prove, that's at least what I've heard when they discuss the Bonds trial.


Good point! Wouldn't it entail them finding the drugs in his actual system?

Oh yeah, your AVY and Sig rock! Pork Chop Express FTW!!

[StorminNorman]

Started watching this getting ready for work this morning.

Sad to say, Clemens is going down. He keeps digging himself a bigger ditch with everything he says.

He should have just told the truth because now he could easily face jail time.

I disagree completely.

Clemens is, for the most part, being helped by the bashing of McNamee.

Clemens is holding his owned - though some of the questions he is being asked are simply ridiculous.

Go Rocket Go!

[Dark Donnie]

Good point! Wouldn't it entail them finding the drugs in his actual system?

Oh yeah, your AVY and Sig rock! Pork Chop Express FTW!!

I would assume. The evidence(needles, and gauze) that McNamme has only hurts Clemens public image IMO. It wasn't a certified test or anything, whose to say McNamme didn't mess with the syringes or vials. Im not watching it but I would bet as stated why he kept that stuff so long will be a hot topic.

Thanks, Jack Burton is the man. So many great lines in that film.

[Figs]

I disagree completely.

Clemens is, for the most part, being helped by the bashing of McNamee.

Clemens is holding his owned - though some of the questions he is being asked are simply ridiculous.

Go Rocket Go!


I don't know, Clemens started stuttering like a fool from some of these questions. He's obviously nervous as all hell, if he was innocent he would have no reason to be nervous.

As for McNamee, I find it funny that he is being yelled at as a liar. Why in the hell would he lie to tarnish his own name and career?? Only thing I could think of is he is getting paid off by someone.

For McNamee, however this turns out his career is already over. No one would trust him.

[cyborg ninja 14]

Weird exchange between Clemens and Representative Norton.

[kane9321]

clemens is gonna fall hard

[Jerry!]

I don't know, Clemens started stuttering like a fool from some of these questions. He's obviously nervous as all hell, if he was innocent he would have no reason to be nervous.

As for McNamee, I find it funny that he is being yelled at as a liar. Why in the hell would he lie to tarnish his own name and career?? Only thing I could think of is he is getting paid off by someone.

For McNamee, however this turns out his career is already over. No one would trust him.

Well he admitted to lying to federal investigators in the past, that some of this statements are untrue. Why would you find it funny he is being called a liar? He is.

As far as Clemens looking nervous, I don't think it has much to do with him being guilty or innocent, just that he wants to make sure he knows exactly what they are asking.

[Ben Urich]

The guy asking the questions right now sounds like Darth Vader.

[cyborg ninja 14]

Congressman James Earl Jones!

[Ben Urich]

"The Chair recognizes Darth Vader."

[Jerry!]

The guy asking the questions right now sounds like Darth Vader.

The guy from Illinois right? That guy was an idiot.

"OK Mr. Clemens I'm going to ask you a hypothetical question about an investigation you had no idea about or knew the details of."

Clemens: :confused:

[Figs]

Well he admitted to lying to federal investigators in the past, that some of this statements are untrue. Why would you find it funny he is being called a liar? He is.

As far as Clemens looking nervous, I don't think it has much to do with him being guilty or innocent, just that he wants to make sure he knows exactly what they are asking.


Why in the holy hell would he lie about something that gives himself a bad name and ruins his career. News flash, when people lie, it's to get them OUT of trouble. Unless your brainwashed or being paid off, no sane person lies about something that will make them get into trouble.



Clemens is doing some crazy back peddling now lol. He's trying to say that he did take B12 because he has dementia. :whatever:

[danoyse]

The guy asking the questions right now sounds like Darth Vader.

I thought he sounded like Stanley from The Office. I kept expecting him to take out a crossword puzzle.

[Dark Donnie]

The little bit I listened to, the one Congressmen ripped into McNamee pretty badly.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Why is that the Democrats are hitting Rocket hard, but the Republicans are hitting McNamee?

And right now, about the tape...McNamee is being pwned.

[Jerry!]

Why in the holy hell would he lie about something that gives himself a bad name and ruins his career. News flash, when people lie, it's to get them OUT of trouble. Unless your brainwashed or being paid off, no sane person lies about something that will make them get into trouble.



Clemens is doing some crazy back peddling now lol. He's trying to say that he did take B12 because he has dementia. :whatever:

I don't know why, but that's what he did.

About the dementia, are you watching the same hearing as everyone else? Clemens never said or insinuated that at all. That was just another stupid question from am overwhelming smarmy representative. The next guy who talked kinda killed what he was trying to get at.

[danoyse]

Roger Clemens and George W. Bush are good friends. I would not be surprised at all if certain Republicans were going after McNamee instead of Clemens. Dan Burton's line of questioning in particular.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Or....

that the Democrats are going after Clemens because he is a Republican.

I think that'd be more possible since Bush has yet to learn mind control.

[Dark Donnie]

What did Petitte lie about?

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Holy hell...you guys see the Debbie Clemens thing??

[danoyse]

No, I don't think they're ripping him because he's a Republican. Curt Schilling is a raging Republican and I don't remember anyone questioning his testimony when he faced Congress a few years ago.

Clemens said early in the hearing that he'd received a call from the highest office in the land (or something like that) telling him to remain strong to show the support he's getting. That said to me that he's got W's support. Funny, since he's made cracking down on steroids in sports such a priority...unless one of his own friends gets accused of it.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Oh, he lied about the number of usage.

He had said he'd used for only 2 days.

Apparently...he'd used for longer. I think all of 2004, I think.

And that his father provided them.

I think. I mean, I read that last night on ESPN News.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I think the Debbie Clemens thing, as told by Roger Clemens, is probably the most truthful thing we've heard from either side.

[Dark Donnie]

Holy hell...you guys see the Debbie Clemens thing??

What?

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Roger read a statement from Debbie Clemens.

She said that there had been an article about HGH being used as a natural and healthy form of use. And that Brian McNamee, being a doctor, had told Debbie Clemens about that and had offered to inject her with a test shot of HGH, and she did. She supposedly then had health problems for quite a while because of it and hadn't told Roger.

[Dark Donnie]

I knew he injected her, I didn't know they(Clemens') acknowledged it

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yeah. She acknowledged it through Roger in a statement she had written.

[StorminNorman]

I don't know, Clemens started stuttering like a fool from some of these questions. He's obviously nervous as all hell, if he was innocent he would have no reason to be nervous.

As for McNamee, I find it funny that he is being yelled at as a liar. Why in the hell would he lie to tarnish his own name and career?? Only thing I could think of is he is getting paid off by someone.

For McNamee, however this turns out his career is already over. No one would trust him.

People say that - but thats a ridiculous position to make.

He is testifying before congress underoath where one simple slip could mean prison. Thats huge.

McNamee would lie to try to keep himself out of jail time he was getting, I believe.

[Dark Donnie]

People say that - but thats a ridiculous position to make.

He is testifying before congress underoath where one simple slip could mean prison. Thats huge.

McNamee would lie to try to keep himself out of jail time he was getting, I believe.

I agree 100%

I don't really know what exactly the was talking about but one of the Congressman stated that McNamme had lied numerous times today.....about what?

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yeah...it's insane to think he shouldn't be nervous.

I guess being nervous is a sign of guilt?

It's not.

[EdRyder]

To say this thing is a circus is an understatement.No one likes to attend a circus that consists of only clowns.
A member of the oversight committee submitted photographs of Clemens as evidence.(I think it was Virginia Foxx)She makes a note to say something along the lines of "It doesnt appear that you've bulked up at all over the years".And Clemens has the audacity to nod his head ,...Way to do your homework Foxx.
Thats a piece of the puzzle that bugs the **** out of me.Rather than rely on his stats isnt there another form of factual data out there?Cant they create an injured list timeline and compare his healing times for muscle pulls ,strains, etc between the times its alleged he was on steroids and wasnt?Kind of simple,..surely not all that difficult.
Then Elijah Cummings claimed that since Pettite acknowledged Mcnamee's allegations to be true,that in turn casts doubt on Clemens.Somehow hes guilty by association? Thats an outrageous statement! You'd think this was Nuremberg

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I don't really know what exactly the was talking about but one of the Congressman stated that McNamme had lied numerous times today.....about what?

There was so much talk , really.

This format...the lets ask every 5 minutes...doesn't seem to work, because they should have been able to call each guy out on a lie then and there.

It just finished...and honestly there are things on both sides that make this tough to follow and tough to call.

McNamee history of lying hurt him big time.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

To say this thing is a circus is an understatement.No one likes to attend a circus that consists of only clowns.
A member of the oversight committee submitted photographs of Clemens as evidence.(I think it was Virginia Foxx)She makes a note to say something along the lines of "It doesnt appear that you've bulked up at all over the years".And Clemens has the audacity to nod his head ,...Way to do your homework Foxx.
Thats a piece of the puzzle that bugs the **** out of me.Rather than rely on his stats isnt there another form of factual data out there?Cant they create an injured list timeline and compare his healing times for muscle pulls ,strains, etc between the times its alleged he was on steroids and wasnt?Kind of simple,..surely not all that difficult.
Then Elijah Cummings claimed that since Pettite acknowledged Mcnamee's allegations to be true,that in turn casts doubt on Clemens.Somehow hes guilty by association? Thats an outrageous statement! You'd think this was Nuremberg


Clemens provided stats that supported his own claim, though.

[Jerry!]

People say that - but thats a ridiculous position to make.

He is testifying before congress underoath where one simple slip could mean prison. Thats huge.

McNamee would lie to try to keep himself out of jail time he was getting, I believe.

Exactly. One wrong answer, even if by mistake or misunderstanding of some kind and it gets that much worse for Clemens.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, there were a few on McNamees' side as well. I think he had certain confusions as well, that he stumbled through.

It's why this case is so bizarre.

Really, the hits both took were directed by the repsentatives that had they're agendas in attacking.

Some went after, clearly, Clemens. Some went after, clearly, McNamee.

I'll say the house leader is one ugly bastard. He should wear a mask when on TV.

[The Kid]

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/photos/clemens2.jpg Leave Clemens Alone or he'll throw splintered bats at you?

Did he win? I didn't understand the outcome of this very serious hearing...

[Spidey-Bat]

This is just Round 1.

[Dark Donnie]

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/photos/clemens2.jpg Leave Clemens Alone or he'll throw splintered bats at you?

Did he win? I didn't understand the outcome of this very serious hearing...

There is no outcome really, nothing will probably happen from all this.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Oh, I think something will come from this.

6 FBI Agents were present at the hearing, and supposedly they've already began an investigation into who prejured themselves.

I mean, as of now...that is the ONLY thing is true...is that someone is lying.

[Dark Donnie]

Oh, I think something will come from this.

6 FBI Agents were present at the hearing, and supposedly they've already began an investigation into who prejured themselves.

I mean, as of now...that is the ONLY thing is true...is that someone is lying.

There may be more trials, but it's extremely difficult to get a guilty plea off a perjury charge.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Man, Clemens lawyers are doing a great job.

And I'm doubting the validity of the Commitee as well, because they seemed to have lied about the Nanny apparently.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

There may be more trials, but it's extremely difficult to get a guilty plea off a perjury charge.


True.

But people will surely be hunting.

[Excel]

Clemens does not seem very intelligent. I saw a bit and a congresswoman helf up four photos of from from 96, 99, 2002 and 2006 and said he looked roughly the same size and asked him to discuss his conditioning; he responded by talking about career accomplishments.

[cyborg ninja 14]

This hearing was ridiculous. Clemens said werid things, members of congress asked werid questions. McNamee also had his questionable moments.

BTW: Clemens is "easy to find."

[Dark Donnie]

This hearing was ridiculous. Clemens said werid things, members of congress asked werid questions. McNamee also had his questionable moments.

BTW: Clemens is "easy to find."

lol I heard that part, something about "I was in a hideout hunting deer....they found me."

[cyborg ninja 14]

lol I heard that part, something about "I was in a hideout hunting deer....they found me."

Yeah, pretty random when talking about why he didn't talk to Senator Mitchell. "When Bud Selig wanted me to pitch in the all-star game, I was there! When they wanted me to pitch in the WBC, I was there! I'm easy to find ect." WTF ya'll?

[Spidey-Bat]

Clemens does not seem very intelligent. I saw a bit and a congresswoman helf up four photos of from from 96, 99, 2002 and 2006 and said he looked roughly the same size and asked him to discuss his conditioning; he responded by talking about career accomplishments.

That was retarded. There was no doubt she was a Clemens-homer. The pictures had absolutely nothing to do with her question.

[cyborg ninja 14]

Word of the day: Misremember:up:

[Spidey-Bat]

Which is higher: Clemens' IQ or career ERA?

[cyborg ninja 14]

Which is higher: Clemens' IQ or career ERA?

Is there a stat for IQ+?:cwink:

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I'm a Clemens fan.

But him not knowing what a Vegan is, was such a Texan-male thing I thought.

I was sickened by the clear division. I mean, clearly...down the line...there were divisons on this.

And it bothers me how everyone seems to be lying about something. Even the damn leader of the debate seems to be lying about what he said in not wanting to go foward with the hearing.

But, yes. I think we all know the truth for sure now.

Unless there's some insane, massive conspiracy thing happening against Rocket...which isn't the case.

He'll probably go in seclusion now, and live quietly and happily with his smokin hot wife.

I feel bad for his kids, though. Especially his oldest, who's a pro baseball player in the minors. That kid has got be getting hammered from all ends right now. And his three other brothers are and will get it too through high school, and the pros if they ever pursue careers like they're dad and brother.