Discussion: Illegal Immigration

[Malice]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?

[Matt]

Seems like a good plan to me. Fair, but firm. I don't think you go far enough after the 6 months though. I think it is time we start punishing illegals. I try to sneak into Mexico and get caught, I spend a few years in prison south of the border. I don't just get sent home to try again. It is time we start offering some deterrance for trying to break our laws.

[ScottyBBadd]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?

It is a good idea in theroy.

[Malice]

Seems like a good plan to me. Fair, but firm. I don't think you go far enough after the 6 months though. I think it is time we start punishing illegals. I try to sneak into Mexico and get caught, I spend a few years in prison south of the border. I don't just get sent home to try again. It is time we start offering some deterrance for trying to break our laws.

That is a good thought.
But I have a hard time thinking that the US should start jailing people for that.

I honestly think, that if we force the employer to assist in the process, this will minimize that number of people in the US who are not registered. Those that then are still illegal, will eventually be found when they goto the hospital or goto the police.

[Anguissette1979]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?

That's just about where I stand, Malice. We are a country built of and by immigrants and we don't want to discourage that but we want it to be legal and to help everyone integrate (learn english, etc...). My very own significant other will hopefully be legalling immigrating from England in the next couple of years (he's here on a student visa now). :up:

[Spidey-Bat]

Seems like a good plan to me. Fair, but firm. I don't think you go far enough after the 6 months though. I think it is time we start punishing illegals. I try to sneak into Mexico and get caught, I spend a few years in prison south of the border. I don't just get sent home to try again. It is time we start offering some deterrance for trying to break our laws.

Prisons are overcrowded as it is.


Malice, as for your plan I like it. The 5K fine seems a bit hefty though I don't know what it costs to legally immigrate to the US.

[Matt]

That is a good thought.
But I have a hard time thinking that the US should start jailing people for that.

I honestly think, that if we force the employer to assist in the process, this will minimize that number of people in the US who are not registered. Those that then are still illegal, will eventually be found when they goto the hospital or goto the police.

If thats the case, then we need to start actively investigating companies for hiring illegals. Start issuing real fines for it (multi-million dollars). We need to show them consequences. Otherwise they will have nothing to lose and everything to gain by hiring illegal immigrants. Being as most of our politicans are in big business' pockets, it doesn't seem practical so I think we need to start showing real penalties to people sneaking it.

[Anguissette1979]

If thats the case, then we need to start actively investigating companies for hiring illegals. Start issuing real fines for it (multi-million dollars). We need to show them consequences. Otherwise they will have nothing to lose and everything to gain by hiring illegal immigrants. Being as most of our politicans are in big business' pockets, it doesn't seem practical so I think we need to start showing real penalties to people sneaking it.

I'll be curious to see how Arizona's plan pans out... :up:

[Matt]

Prisons are overcrowded as it is.


Malice, as for your plan I like it. The 5K fine seems a bit hefty though I don't know what it costs to legally immigrate to the US.

I'm pretty sure its significantly more.

As for prisons being overcrowded. Perhaps we should make it a military issue and put them in military prisons (which aren't as coddling as state and federal pens and don't suffer the same overcrowding issue). After all, what they are doing constitutes an invasion in the most technical of senses.

[Malice]

If thats the case, then we need to start actively investigating companies for hiring illegals. Start issuing real fines for it (multi-million dollars). We need to show them consequences. Otherwise they will have nothing to lose and everything to gain by hiring illegal immigrants. Being as most of our politicans are in big business' pockets, it doesn't seem practical so I think we need to start showing real penalties to people sneaking it.

I would imagine, while the border is being secured, the process would go out to employers that you have illegals or something, warning them, that on "future January 1 day" you will be fined $x for every illegal. (the fine will be hefty, a fine equal to have paid the ENTIRE salary of a US citizen for the position) or something of that nature.

Then on the January 1, they start the random selections. This could be part of the Tax Filing, or something of that nature. I cant answer to that as there are filing issues I simply have no experience to even comment on.

[Malice]

I'm pretty sure its significantly more.

As for prisons being overcrowded. Perhaps we should make it a military issue and put them in military prisons (which aren't as coddling as state and federal pens and don't suffer the same overcrowding issue). After all, what they are doing constitutes an invasion in the most technical of senses.

Legally, we cant do that, as they are not part of the Military...
We dont want the Military to get involved in policing the people

[Manic]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?
I agree. The only real downside is that, if documentation is required for crossing the borders every time, we'll no longer have the ability to spontaneously drive to Tijuana at 2am on a Friday night after a few too many shots of Petrone and a dare.

Seems like a good plan to me. Fair, but firm. I don't think you go far enough after the 6 months though. I think it is time we start punishing illegals. I try to sneak into Mexico and get caught, I spend a few years in prison south of the border. I don't just get sent home to try again. It is time we start offering some deterrance for trying to break our laws.
I disagree. Our tax dollars already pay to keep prisoners comfortable (well, somewhat). By jailing the illegals, we'll have to pay higher taxes for the ever-growing prison population.

[Matt]

Legally, we cant do that, as they are not part of the Military...
We dont want the Military to get involved in policing the people

They are a foreign invasion force. Granted, it is sketchy at best...but you put a few hundred in a military prison and the others will certainly think twice before coming over.

[SapphirePrima]

I personally feel that if you're not trying to learn to read and write english then you shouldn't be here legally or illegally.

[oakzap425]

Why does it seem like this is strictly based on Mexican Illegal immigrants? I'm sure there are other immigrants here illegally. Cuba? Haiti?

[Matt]

I disagree. Our tax dollars already pay to keep prisoners comfortable (well, somewhat). By jailing the illegals, we'll have to pay higher taxes for the ever-growing prison population.

End the pointless war on drugs. The war on drugs is a war on drug addicts, not distributors. Make the penalty for possession simply probation and mandatory, self-funded rehab. Watch how quickly our prisons empty out.

[Kel]

If you look at the population growth of the US, we are at a zero population growth as far as births.....

With an economy like ours, this is not a good thing.

Looking at population pyramids as an example......when a population pyramid becomes inverted, this means your elderly population is MUCH larger than the birthrate.....in an industrial society you need a large labor pool.......in a zero population growth, or negative population growth this labor pool is depeleted in a major way.......immigration is the increase in our population that is needed to keep us from that inverted population pyramid, and in the long run, will help those of you that plan on living off of your social security benefits.......because you certainly are not going to be able to rely on the grandchildren, that are not being born.

Immigration (LEGAL) is extremely important to our economy......and even a large % of (ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS) are paying taxes because they do not want to get caught......

With all of that said......

In registering, are you saying........simply register to work?

Or, begin the process to become a citizen.

If it is to become a citizen, then the problem is not a "chance" being given.....but the cost of that chance.......these people do not have $20,000 to $30,000 it takes, or the 10 to 15 years to become a citizen.

If its registering to work.......then what are the restrictions to their VISA???

Also, those people that don't have the 20,000 to 30,000 also don't have the
5,000...........they are here for a reason.........they are poor. They get the jobs they do, because they are not skilled labor....$5,000 does not come easy to someone making minimum wage, sending money home to feed a family, and usually an extended family.


This is a problem that has no easy solution, because there are so many factors involved......its a tough sell.

[SapphirePrima]

Why does it seem like this is strictly based on Mexican Illegal immigrants? I'm sure there are other immigrants here illegally. Cuba? Haiti?
The Mexican immigrants are the main problem.

[Spidey-Bat]

If it is to become a citizen, then the problem is not a "chance" being given.....but the cost of that chance.......these people do not have $20,000 to $30,000 it takes, or the 10 to 15 years to become a citizen.

If its registering to work.......then what are the restrictions to their VISA???

Also, those people that don't have the 20,000 to 30,000 also don't have the
5,000...........they are here for a reason.........they are poor. They get the jobs they do, because they are not skilled labor....$5,000 does not come easy to someone making minimum wage, sending money home to feed a family, and usually an extended family.

If they don't have the money, they shouldn't be here to begin with. Poverty doesn't justify illegal immigration.

[oakzap425]

The Mexican immigrants are the main problem.

Poor Mexican's. Can't catch a break.

[Malice]

Why does it seem like this is strictly based on Mexican Illegal immigrants? I'm sure there are other immigrants here illegally. Cuba? Haiti?

I live in Texas and honestly, its usually those from Latin American countries.
That being said, this law, goes for ALL illegals, regardless of country of origin, as it simply does not matter. They are illegal, therefore they fall in this category.

[Kel]

If they don't have the money, they shouldn't be here to begin with. Poverty doesn't justify illegal immigration.



Well damn, if that were the case, then I wouldn't be here........because I'm a descendant of

*Poor Irish family...
*French running from the law...
*Danish honest folk....
*Poor Cherokee....

One of the biggest reason for ANY immigration to this country comes from an economic basis....and in many cases, there finances are tied up, especially in their first few years here.....

[Malice]

If you look at the population growth of the US, we are at a zero population growth as far as births.....

With an economy like ours, this is not a good thing.

Looking at population pyramids as an example......when a population pyramid becomes inverted, this means your elderly population is MUCH larger than the birthrate.....in an industrial society you need a large labor pool.......in a zero population growth, or negative population growth this labor pool is depeleted in a major way.......immigration is the increase in our population that is needed to keep us from that inverted population pyramid, and in the long run, will help those of you that plan on living off of your social security benefits.......because you certainly are not going to be able to rely on the grandchildren, that are not being born.

Immigration (LEGAL) is extremely important to our economy......and even a large % of (ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS) are paying taxes because they do not want to get caught......

With all of that said......

In registering, are you saying........simply register to work?

Or, begin the process to become a citizen.

If it is to become a citizen, then the problem is not a "chance" being given.....but the cost of that chance.......these people do not have $20,000 to $30,000 it takes, or the 10 to 15 years to become a citizen.

If its registering to work.......then what are the restrictions to their VISA???

Also, those people that don't have the 20,000 to 30,000 also don't have the
5,000...........they are here for a reason.........they are poor. They get the jobs they do, because they are not skilled labor....$5,000 does not come easy to someone making minimum wage, sending money home to feed a family, and usually an extended family.


This is a problem that has no easy solution, because there are so many factors involved......its a tough sell.

As far as registering. This is a way they can work legally. They are in the books, and can be taxed effectively. Granted, some are paid in cash, and the IRS will assist in dealing with that. They can work out a payment plan.

I understand those that are here illegally, they are generally on the poorer side of the economic scale. The fine is really a penalty telling them they came here the wrong way.

As far as the population growth, I have no problem bringing in more immigrants, as long as they come in legally, I am all for it.

[SapphirePrima]

If they don't have the money, they shouldn't be here to begin with. Poverty doesn't justify illegal immigration.
But they can't make money in their own countries. So they should stay where they are and live in poverty, while they can come here and live in somewhat better conditions illegally?

These people aren't choosing to live in poverty they are born into it.

[Mr Sparkle]

Seems like a good plan to me. Fair, but firm. I don't think you go far enough after the 6 months though. I think it is time we start punishing illegals. I try to sneak into Mexico and get caught, I spend a few years in prison south of the border. I don't just get sent home to try again. It is time we start offering some deterrance for trying to break our laws.

actually, that's only in the southern borders, and there's no "prison term" there's deportation, immediate deportation, this only started because there was pressure from the US to stop migration from other southern countries.

if YOU try to sneak into Mexico all you have to do is walk across the Border because they don't ask for ID when coming in from the states.

so, uh....yeah, stop making **** up :up:

[The Chairman]

My sentiments on immigration are in line with Ron Paul's. I researched him today and I think he has a pretty strong plan.

[Mr Sparkle]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?


a question though.
once these events are set in motion, do they have just the six months to come up with 5 grand?
it seems that people that go to the states send a lot of cash back to their home countries ( WOW you meant it's not just Mexico? :huh:...yes, that's what I mean) so maybe 5 grand in the course of six months is a little steep, they do work for far less ( in some instances ) than the average citizen and the average citizen has a hard time coming up with a disposable 5 k , but then I might be wrong.

[Taiwarriorz21]

Well if they would let Americans patrol the borders and snipe that would be nice but unfortunately the U.S. welcomes all the illegals to cheap work in America.

[Mr Sparkle]

Well damn, if that were the case, then I wouldn't be here........because I'm a descendant of


*Poor Cherokee....



then it's more your country than some other people:o

[Mr Sparkle]

Well if they would let Americans patrol the borders and snipe that would be nice but unfortunately the U.S. welcomes all the illegals to cheap work in America.

I hope you finish building those awesome walls you're doing in the Mexico border, that would finally make you safe.....except for....you know....Canada.


and miles upon miles of coastline.....but yeah...much safer.

[terry78]

It's obvious they come over because well, they're living in squaller over there, and if the land of milk and honey is right over the border and someone is promising that things will be better tenfold over here, then yes, you will risk deportation or getting killed to do it. Is it right? No. But that's never stopped desparate people before. I suspect as far as going by the book and taking time to do it, a lot of them just aren't educated enough to do so. I couldn't tell you any other valid reason.

[Mr Sparkle]

I couldn't tell you any other valid reason.

they aren't eligible.

[Spidey-Bat]

Well damn, if that were the case, then I wouldn't be here........because I'm a descendant of

*Poor Irish family...
*French running from the law...
*Danish honest folk....
*Poor Cherokee....

One of the biggest reason for ANY immigration to this country comes from an economic basis....and in many cases, there finances are tied up, especially in their first few years here.....

The excuse that these people are poor doesn't justify them being here illegally. What does that say to people who immigrate here legally?

[Mr Sparkle]

The Mexican immigrants are the main problem.

:huh: que?

[Mr Sparkle]

The excuse that these people are poor doesn't justify them being here illegally. What does that say to people who immigrate here legally?

"be glad you're not ****ing poor"?:huh:

[SapphirePrima]

:huh: que?
I don't why I laughed at this. :confused:

But they are the main ones who are crossing the the border illegally to come here. Not that there are others.

[Mr Sparkle]

I don't why I laughed at this. :confused:

But they are the main ones who are crossing the the border illegally to come here. Not that there are others.

nah.
Mexican immigrants are 50% or something like that of the whole Illegal immigrant thing, that when you factor in proximity and economic situation isn't really that surprising.
the rest are from south America and the rest of the world.
in fact, there's tons of Irish and Scottish illegal immigrants, but people don't care because they speak English.
go figure.
I mean, when you think about it, the fact that you're not from a third world nation, are able to afford a plane ticket and STILL choose to live in the US illegally should irk people more, but again...weird world.

[Kel]

The excuse that these people are poor doesn't justify them being here illegally. What does that say to people who immigrate here legally?


Many of them will tell you that the cost of becoming a citizen.....something they wanted to do from day one............has depleted their savings to nothing......

Also, my remarks at the beginning of this thread, were not solely about illegal immigrants....in fact, I was actually talking more of those that are here legally, and have been working towards citizenship, some who have been waiting over a decade.

So don't read my posts with blinders on........read it with full understanding, that it is not JUST illegal immigrants that find it hard to become a citizen here..........those that are here legally find it costing them their savings plus, and many, many years.......paying lawyers the entire way.

[Spidey-Bat]

"be glad you're not ****ing poor"?:huh:

No. What it's saying is if you follow the rules, you have to pay. If you don't follow the rules, you don't pay a thing.

[terry78]

It depends on how you come across, more or less. You come across like you can afford to stay here, you can do it. You look like you're on the bottom rung of society, people will give you a double take. It's like getting into a country club. I'm sure umpteen Irish car bombers could come into the country, but because they would come off as upper middle class tourists it wouldn't be given a second look.

[Mr Sparkle]

No. What it's saying is if you follow the rules, you have to pay. If you don't follow the rules, you don't pay a thing.

except...if you die in process, but yeah, other than that?
SCORE!!!!

[Kel]

It depends on how you come across, more or less. You come across like you can afford to stay here, you can do it. You look like you're on the bottom rung of society, people will give you a double take. It's like getting into a country club. I'm sure umpteen Irish car bombers could come into the country, but because they would come off as upper middle class tourists it wouldn't be given a second look.



Why ya pickin on the Irish..........................UH.............UH.. .....yeah you.......

[Malice]

a question though.
once these events are set in motion, do they have just the six months to come up with 5 grand?
it seems that people that go to the states send a lot of cash back to their home countries ( WOW you meant it's not just Mexico? :huh:...yes, that's what I mean) so maybe 5 grand in the course of six months is a little steep, they do work for far less ( in some instances ) than the average citizen and the average citizen has a hard time coming up with a disposable 5 k , but then I might be wrong.

They can work a payment plan with the IRS on this issue.

[Mr Sparkle]

They can work a payment plan with the IRS on this issue.

eh, then that sounds pretty fair.

[Obi-Ron]

Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people.

It's a matter of logistics, not conscience.

[Mal'Akai]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?
Throw in learn English, and I'm behind you all the way.

[Mr Sparkle]

it's right there.
Ironically.

[Mal'Akai]

it's right there.
Ironically.
That'll teach me to try and speed read.

[Matt]

Y'know Malice, the more I think on it, the more I realize one gleaming problem with your plan. The second you offer that six months to register, aren't you essentially opening our border to anyone who wants to come in for six months?

[Kel]

Y'know Malice, the more I think on it, the more I realize one gleaming problem with your plan. The second you offer that six months to register, aren't you essentially opening our border to anyone who wants to come in for six months?

I think he's thinking more of, those that are already here....


Those that are coming in, have to have proper documentation according to his plan. The amnesty for 6 months is given to those already here.

[Matt]

I think he's thinking more of, those that are already here....


Those that are coming in, have to have proper documentation according to his plan. The amnesty for 6 months is given to those already here.

But whats to stop the new ones from just sneaking in and saying they have been here?

[Kel]

But whats to stop the new ones from just sneaking in and saying they have been here?


His first line of his plan states better enforcment of the border......any plan worth its weight has to have much stronger border control.

You would have to have a sign up program for the registration, that co-exists with a STRONG BLOCK ON THE BORDERS, after the registration date is passed for those in the country.....ANYONE without the registration is taken into custody as he stated in his plan......anyone found crossing the border, is deported immediately.

[Mr Sparkle]

But whats to stop the new ones from just sneaking in and saying they have been here?

reality?

[Malice]

His first line of his plan states better enforcment of the border......any plan worth its weight has to have much stronger border control.

Correct.
The entire plan only goes into effect once border security is REALLY in effect.
Simple as that.

[Mr Sparkle]

a question.
anyone actually seen the current border control?
because I see it everyday and it seems excessive.

[Kel]

Excessive doesn't always mean efficient.

[Malice]

His first line of his plan states better enforcment of the border......any plan worth its weight has to have much stronger border control.

You would have to have a sign up program for the registration, that co-exists with a STRONG BLOCK ON THE BORDERS, after the registration date is passed for those in the country.....ANYONE without the registration is taken into custody as he stated in his plan......anyone found crossing the border, is deported immediately.

Correct.
borders get secure, and then the registrations are done after that.

[Mr Sparkle]

Excessive doesn't always mean efficient.

good point.
but then I think enforced borders are useless really.
weird.

[Docker2.0]

Malice, I like your plan on immagration, compared to the one of politicians. The whole"putting a microchip in their hand to see if they are illegal or legal" is to mark of the beastish like for my approval.

[Kel]

good point.
but then I think enforced borders are useless really.
weird.

I kind of agree with you on this point......immigration, at least from Mexico....is a two fold process............we have to enforce the borders, whether it seems fruitless or not, we can't have open borders north or south of the US, the world is just not one where that can happen......AND Mexico has to work, much harder on their economy, they have to build a stronger middle class, and clean out their political process, it sucks.....They have a strong base to work from....they are moving in a positive direction, they just need to work harder.

Honestly, its a hell of an uphill climb, but it can be done.

[Darthphere]

I really do like Malice's plan, except for the whole requiring to speak and write English part. I mean, if Taiwarriorz can get away with butchering the English language, so should illegals.

[Malice]

I really do like Malice's plan, except for the whole requiring to speak and write English part. I mean, if Taiwarriorz can get away with butchering the English language, so should illegals.

Honestly....I have a hard time understanding why someone coming here to live, and work, refuses to learn the language. I mean if I went to Germany, I would learn the language to speak to the locals.

I find it a sign of respect.

My wife is an Apartment Manager. She gets alot of people coming in asking if she speaks English. When she says no, they ask if someone else does. She says no again. Then they speak perfect English. I find this disrespectful.

[Darthphere]

Honestly....I have a hard time understanding why someone coming here to live, and work, refuses to learn the language. I mean if I went to Germany, I would learn the language to speak to the locals.

I find it a sign of respect.

My wife is an Apartment Manager. She gets alot of people coming in asking if she speaks English. When she says no, they ask if someone else does. She says no again. Then they speak perfect English. I find this disrespectful.

Well you have a wrong perspective on things, it's not like they come over here and are telling all their friends " I will never speak English ever!" It's more complicated than that, but of course, you can continue believing it's a sign of disrespect or whatever.

[Malice]

Well you have a wrong perspective on things, it's not like they come over here and are telling all their friends " I will never speak English ever!" It's more complicated than that, but of course, you can continue believing it's a sign of disrespect or whatever.

That may be.
I understand people wanting to speak their own language...Dont assume we all speak it too here in the US.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?

I like your ideas Malice. Its a nice approach to something the politicians seem afraid of even mentioning. The system you have devised looks quite sound. There's not much I can say on such a delicate subject, being that I'm naught but a college freshman with his fall semester behind him. But this way everyone is happy.

[Malice]

I like your ideas Malice. Its a nice approach to something the politicians seem afraid of even mentioning. The system you have devised looks quite sound. There's not much I can say on such a delicate subject, being that I'm naught but a college freshman with his fall semester behind him. But this way everyone is happy.

Thanks.
The issue as you said, is a sticky issue.
My solution is a realistic one. Obviously there are some small issues that someone only involved in the process can forsee...

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

For the matter of learning English, I suggest your plan mention it as a "language of business" you know, for those too outraged to figure that out for themselves.

[ANTOINE X]

I have a solution. Girls In. Guys don't f****n move. :grin:

[Malice]

For the matter of learning English, I suggest your plan mention it as a "language of business" you know, for those too outraged to figure that out for themselves.

Yeah, I mentioned that to my wife, she laughed.

[hippie_hunter]

Personally, I feel that we need to target the employers who are completely willing to hire illegals more than the immigrants who come here to make a better living for themselves and their families.

[Kel]

Personally, I feel that we need to target the employers who are completely willing to hire illegals more than the immigrants who come here to make a better living for themselves and their families.

That would definitely have to be a major proponent of the program.

[ANTOINE X]

seriously I think this all crap and hypocrite of Americans to be rough on immigrations on Mexicans mostly. Cause when they need them for cheap labor nobody complains now that there s china doing the dirty job & and the high tech job they push Mexican away:whatever:

[Malice]

seriously I think this all crap and hypocrite of Americans to be rough on immigrations on Mexicans mostly. Cause when they need them for cheap labor nobody complains now that there s china doing the dirty job & and the high tech job they push Mexican away:whatever:

Actually most of us dont give a crap where they are from, they just need to get here legally.

[hippie_hunter]

Actually most of us dont give a crap where they are from, they just need to get here legally.

If employers were targeted more often than the immigrants it would provide a lot less incentive for them to come here illegally.

They come here for work, employers hire them because they're cheap. Take away the jobs, then that will provide the incentive for them to come here legally.

[Malice]

If employers were targeted more often than the immigrants it would provide a lot less incentive for them to come here illegally.

They come here for work, employers hire them because they're cheap. Take away the jobs, then that will provide the incentive for them to come here legally.

You cant target just one aspect of it.
That is why the security gets done first...

Then they target both companies and illegals.
The companies they actively go after, the illegals they get when they goto a public service...police hospital...etc...

[hippie_hunter]

You cant target just one aspect of it.
That is why the security gets done first...

Then they target both companies and illegals.
The companies they actively go after, the illegals they get when they goto a public service...police hospital...etc...

Security and targeting the employers need to happen at the same time.

Send the military to the border and have them use non-lethal techniques on illegals along with Border Patrol. But target the employers using various government agencies such as the Department of Labor, ICE, etc.

At the same time, I feel that the government should try and help the immigrants that are serious in staying here, to accomodate to this country. Help them master English, know the laws of this country, and other necessary things. I'm know this might sound a tad bit racist but I find it insulting that this country is having to accomodate to them.

[ANTOINE X]

Actually most of us dont give a crap where they are from, they just need to get here legally.

I m Canadian and I like my fellow Americans but I also know that my friend American always like to play angel when there re not. You know better than me that when is time to do job like going in the field and working like animals papers don't count but then when those same guy wants bigger jobs woops! suddenly they asking for papers. That s the whole story about America they like to take but they don't want to share!:csad:

[Malice]

Security and targeting the employers need to happen at the same time.

Send the military to the border and have them use non-lethal techniques on illegals along with Border Patrol. But target the employers using various government agencies such as the Department of Labor, ICE, etc.

At the same time, I feel that the government should try and help the immigrants that are serious in staying here, to accomodate to this country. Help them master English, know the laws of this country, and other necessary things. I'm know this might sound a tad bit racist but I find it insulting that this country is having to accomodate to them.

The border security has to happen first. Once that is "completed" then the rest can take place.

As far as helping out the immigrants..I am all for it, they get registered, and the rest is history...The companies will be looked into then as well.

[Malice]

I m Canadian and I like my fellow Americans but I also know that my friend American always like to play angel when there re not. You know better than me that when is time to do job like going in the field and working like animals papers don't count but then when those same guy wants bigger jobs woops! suddenly they asking for papers. That s the whole story about America they like to take but they don't want to share!:csad:

That is a load of crap.
Dont get me wrong, I am American and I know that we can be arrogant about our own existance in the world. But you cannot deny the US is one of the most philanthropic people out there.

[hippie_hunter]

The border security has to happen first. Once that is "completed" then the rest can take place.

As far as helping out the immigrants..I am all for it, they get registered, and the rest is history...The companies will be looked into then as well.

But both can happen at the same time. We have various government agencies for the various tasks that are needed.

The Army and Border Patrol can handle with border security. Organizations such as the various agencies of the Department of Labor and Immigration and Customs Enforcement can handle other aspects such as targeting employers that knowingly hire illegals.

[ANTOINE X]

That is a load of crap.
Dont get me wrong, I am American and I know that we can be arrogant about our own existance in the world. But you cannot deny the US is one of the most philanthropic people out there.


Yeah but the problem is you re numero uno in the world. You can't behave like the others. People are watching you and if you don't play by the rules how do you think a third world country will do?

All I m saying don't criticize immigrant when you re the same people who wanted them at the first place. When you take then take the consequences with it or ask the people of America to do the dirty job which you already know the answer...

[StorminNorman]

good point.
but then I think enforced borders are useless really.
weird.

How are the enforced borders useless? Seems to me that unenforced borders are the ones that question why borders exist at all. :huh:

[StorminNorman]

Well you have a wrong perspective on things, it's not like they come over here and are telling all their friends " I will never speak English ever!" It's more complicated than that, but of course, you can continue believing it's a sign of disrespect or whatever.

They need to be forced to learn our language because when you have large amounts of people that can speak English - you have groups trying to get American classes to have Spanish-only classes and the like which do nothing but hurt the future generations who need English to succeed in most areas.

[Darthphere]

They need to be forced to learn our language because when you have large amounts of people that can speak English - you have groups trying to get American classes to have Spanish-only classes and the like which do nothing but hurt the future generations who need English to succeed in most areas.

No one needs to be "forced" into doing anything. Last I checked we didn't live in the Soviet Union.

[StorminNorman]

Personally, I feel that we need to target the employers who are completely willing to hire illegals more than the immigrants who come here to make a better living for themselves and their families.

But then you do nothing to deter the illegals that come to America with no plans on trying to make a better living.

I want a secure border not to keep out poor Mexican farmer, I want a secure border to help fight against the rampant drug trade, gangs, and other scumbags that have no interest in living within American laws.

[StorminNorman]

No one needs to be "forced" into doing anything. Last I checked we didn't live in the Soviet Union.

Having a national language that needs to be learned is hardly a sign of fascism. Having millions in America that can not and will not learn English hurts the country as a whole.

[Darthphere]

Having a national language that needs to be learned is hardly a sign of fascism. Having millions in America that can not and will not learn English hurts the country as a whole.

Again, you can't "force" anyone to do anything. That's my problem with the whole "They need to learn English!" debate. You're talking about forcing people to do something, and that sir, is ridiculous and unamerican.

[StorminNorman]

Again, you can't "force" anyone to do anything. That's my problem with the whole "They need to learn English!" debate. You're talking about forcing people to do something, and that sir, is ridiculous and unamerican.

Well obviously the government will not jail anyone that refuses not to learn English.

But the Government needs to stop embracing those that refuse to learn Spanish. Having voting ballets - for example - that aren't is English is ridiculous. Having classes that are taught in Spanish is ridiculous. Similar measures that allow Spanish speaking citizens no true incentive to learn the language is ridiculous.

[Darthphere]

Well obviously the government will not jail anyone that refuses not to learn English.

But the Government needs to stop embracing those that refuse to learn Spanish. Having voting ballets - for example - that aren't is English is ridiculous. Having classes that are taught in Spanish is ridiculous. Similar measures that allow Spanish speaking citizens no true incentive to learn the language is ridiculous.

Whatever dude, this debate is an endless one that will never get resolved. It's really at the end of the day irrelevant to true immigration reform. It's something that gets tacked on by some silly redneck in the crowd "We need to enforce our borders, go after companies hiring illegal workers, etc. etc." and then someone yells "Yeah, and they need to learn English too!" It has nothing to do with securing our borders.

[Spider-Bite]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?


I agree with you except for the hospital thing. It could get a little inhumane, by letting people die or suffer for fear of being deported themselves or having their family deported.

We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.


Plus the fact that they will finally be able to earn minimum wage. They will choose to register.

[GoldenAgeHero]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?


i agree with your ideas.

[terry78]

When foreigners get the right to do **** we've had all along, some people just don't take kindly to it. It's human nature, xenophobic as it may be.

[StorminNorman]

Whatever dude, this debate is an endless one that will never get resolved. It's really at the end of the day irrelevant to true immigration reform. It's something that gets tacked on by some silly redneck in the crowd "We need to enforce our borders, go after companies hiring illegal workers, etc. etc." and then someone yells "Yeah, and they need to learn English too!" It has nothing to do with securing our borders.

No it is a "secure borders" bill - but it needs to be apart of any immigration bill. I understand (and hate) that this has become viewed as a "redneck" issue - and there is nothing that I hate more than rednecks and that culture. But to me, this is far more tough love than discrimination. If Immigrants refuse to learn English - they are at a horrible disadvantage - and the country as a whole is hurt by it.

[Spider-Bite]

When foreigners get the right to do **** we've had all along, some people just don't take kindly to it. It's human nature, xenophobic as it may be.

Human Nature is not justification nor a good excuse. Murder, greed, rape, oppression, dominance, are all factors of human nature. That doesn't mean they are justified by it.

[Spider-Bite]

No it is a "secure borders" bill - but it needs to be apart of any immigration bill. I understand (and hate) that this has become viewed as a "redneck" issue - and there is nothing that I hate more than rednecks and that culture. But to me, this is far more tough love than discrimination. If Immigrants refuse to learn English - they are at a horrible disadvantage - and the country as a whole is hurt by it.


Their lack of knowing English divides the country as well. It segregates us socially and promotes intolerance and racism, because there is no way for Americans to forge friendships with people they can't talk to.

[StorminNorman]

Their lack of knowing English divides the country as well. It segregates us socially and promotes intolerance and racism, because there is no way for Americans to forge friendships with people they can't talk to.

One of the few times I will ever respond to your post with:

"Exactly"

[Darthphere]

No it is a "secure borders" bill - but it needs to be apart of any immigration bill. I understand (and hate) that this has become viewed as a "redneck" issue - and there is nothing that I hate more than rednecks and that culture. But to me, this is far more tough love than discrimination. If Immigrants refuse to learn English - they are at a horrible disadvantage - and the country as a whole is hurt by it.

Again, I really do think you guys are not choosing your words correctly. It's never been a matter of them refusing (for most at least). Most immigrants I know want to learn English, but it isn't as easy as saying "Just take a class *******!" Most illegal immigrants have jobs that have long hours with crappy pay and they still have to come home and keep a household. I know someone is going to throw out an example about their mom or someone they know working 16 hour days raising 5 kids and still taking night classes, but those are exceptions, not the rule.

[hippie_hunter]

But then you do nothing to deter the illegals that come to America with no plans on trying to make a better living.
How so? By targeting the employers that willingly hire illegals you're literally detering them from comming here. By taking away the jobs that hire them is perfect deterance. That will force them to come here legally to get a job.

I want a secure border not to keep out poor Mexican farmer, I want a secure border to help fight against the rampant drug trade, gangs, and other scumbags that have no interest in living within American laws.
And I agree that a secure border is needed. That's why I beleive that the Army should be posted along both the Mexican and Canadian borders.

[ANTOINE X]

No it is a "secure borders" bill - but it needs to be apart of any immigration bill. I understand (and hate) that this has become viewed as a "redneck" issue - and there is nothing that I hate more than rednecks and that culture. But to me, this is far more tough love than discrimination. If Immigrants refuse to learn English - they are at a horrible disadvantage - and the country as a whole is hurt by it.

I think the idea of a border is a redneck idea

[StorminNorman]

How so? By targeting the employers that willingly hire illegals you're literally detering them from comming here. By taking away the jobs that hire them is perfect deterance. That will force them to come here legally to get a job.

I am not referring to those that want to come here to get a job. Again - I really don't care about them. I am more concerned about the drug dealers and the like that don't care what we do to hurt the efforts of illegally working for legit companies.

And I agree that a secure border is needed. That's why I beleive that the Army should be posted along both the Mexican and Canadian borders.

I could support that.

[StorminNorman]

I think the idea of a border is a redneck idea

:lmao:


Wait...


:lmao:

[hippie_hunter]

I am not referring to those that want to come here to get a job. Again - I really don't care about them. I am more concerned about the drug dealers and the like that don't care what we do to hurt the efforts of illegally working for legit companies.
Those people I'm not talking about. Those people need to get deported and imprisoned. Simple as that.

[StorminNorman]

Those people I'm not talking about. Those people need to get deported and imprisoned. Simple as that.

Oh I agree completely about that.

In fact I have a feeling our entire argument is based completely on miscommunication, probably on my end. :o

[ANTOINE X]

How can you think of a wall in 2008? I think the last one was in Berlin and was then destroyed in 1989. And thats the last wall we need in this world!

[hippie_hunter]

Oh I agree completely about that.

In fact I have a feeling our entire argument is based completely on miscommunication, probably on my end. :o

Perhaps. In the end it seems as if we share similar views on immigration. I sorta had an arguement on gun control with a person and in the end it came down to we both held the exact same views, we just misunderstood each other :csad:

[StorminNorman]

How can you think of a wall in 2008? I think the last one was in Berlin and was then destroyed in 1989. And thats the last wall we need in this world!

The Berlin wall split a country into two. It separated families and divided people from freedom and communism.

This is dividing two separate countries - two separate cultures - two separate histories - two separate people.

The two are not comparable - outside of both being about a hunk of brick.

[Darthphere]

The Berlin wall split a country into two. It separated families and divided people from freedom and communism.

This is dividing two separate countries - two separate cultures - two separate histories - two separate people.

The two are not comparable - outside of both being about a hunk of brick.

"People are people...."

:csad: :csad: :csad: :csad: :csad: :csad:

[hippie_hunter]

How can you think of a wall in 2008? I think the last one was in Berlin and was then destroyed in 1989. And thats the last wall we need in this world!

I support the idea of building a wall along the Mexican and Canadian borders. Right now it is just too damn easy to go through them both.

We definetely need the military to patrol down there with Border Patrol and apply non-lethal techniques to keep them out.

I'm all for people comming to this country to make a better living. I feel that we should let more people in. I feel that we should have a lesser form of Schengen Agreement with Canada and Mexico (no passports, let people who want to come to visit, to work, etc. come with ease but make sure that they aren't trafficing people, weapons, drug, and other illegal activities). But it has to be done legally.

[ANTOINE X]

The Berlin wall split a country into two. It separated families and divided people from freedom and communism.

This is dividing two separate countries - two separate cultures - two separate histories - two separate people.

The two are not comparable - outside of both being about a hunk of brick.

Anyways doing a wall instead of solving the real problem ain't mature. Why don't you trow a missile at Mexico when at it?:whatever:

[Darthphere]

I support the idea of building a wall along the Mexican and Canadian borders. Right now it is just too damn easy to go through them both.

We definetely need the military to patrol down there with Border Patrol and apply non-lethal techniques to keep them out.

I'm all for people comming to this country to make a better living. I feel that we should let more people in. I feel that we should have a lesser form of Schengen Agreement with Canada and Mexico (no passports, let people who want to come to visit, to work, etc. come with ease but make sure that they aren't trafficing people, weapons, drug, and other illegal activities). But it has to be done legally.

I'd support this if you include kicking those damn Minute Men off the border too.

[hippie_hunter]

I'd support this if you include kicking those damn Minute Men off the border too.

I oppose the Minute Men. I understand their reasoning, but I see them as nothing but vigilates that have a decent amount of public support.

Private citizens should not be patrolling our border. If they want to do so, join the f**king Border Patrol.

[StorminNorman]

"People are people...."

:csad: :csad: :csad: :csad: :csad: :csad:

But not all situations are equal.

[ANTOINE X]

I oppose the Minute Men. I understand their reasoning, but I see them as nothing but vigilates that have a decent amount of public support.

Private citizens should not be patrolling our border. If they want to do so, join the f**king Border Patrol.

you re naive That s the problem of some Americans. You think that what ever your government says its right. The same people who took Mexican at 2 cent an hour when they needed them the same guys who where friends with bin laden who now is your worst enemy, the same guy who we re friends with Saddam Hussein now dead.

Let me tell you something. When china or India will be too expensive those same guys will go back and say: What the f*** is that wall doing here? hey Mexican let s be friend again! No need for papers don't care if you re criminal come back we need you!:whatever:

[hippie_hunter]

you re naive That s the problem of some Americans. You think that what ever your government says its right. The same people who took Mexican at 2 cent an hour when they needed them the same guys who where friends with bin laden who now is your worst enemy, the same guy who we re friends with Saddam Hussein now dead.
You're an idiot if you think that's how I believe. I've constantly criticized the government for doing or saying what I think is wrong. I think that the people who hire willingly and knowingly illegal Mexicans and pay them below minimum wage need to be punished, more so than the illegal Mexicans trying to get in this country simply because they want to make a better living for themselves and their family. They're exploiting them.

Let me tell you something. When china or India will be too expensive those same guys will go back and say: What the f*** is that wall doing here? hey Mexican let s be friend again! No need for papers don't care if you re criminal come back we need you!:whatever:
I'm all for an integrated world and closer ties, but I do believe in a thing such as borders. I feel that we do need to patrol our borders for security reasons. You're naive to think if we didn't have a thing such as a wall or tougher border security, that a terrorist group, or a drug dealer would not take advantage of it.

It's like you've literally ignored everything I've said:

1. We need to target employers who willingly and knowingly hire illegal immigrants. This will also decrease the motives of the majority of the people who want to come into this country illegally.

2. We need tougher border security such as a wall, such as positioning our military there, etc. This is for necessary security purposes and keeping out ILLEGAL immigrants.

3. We need to make it easier for people who want to come and live in this country, to work in this country, and be a part of this country. We should allow more immigrants in. Our government should help immigrants accommodate to living in this country by helping them master the English language, by making sure that they know our laws, by making sure that they get a fairly paying job and not being exploited, we should help them get educated. We should implement a looser version of the Schengen Agreement to take place between the United States, Canada, and Mexico (no passports, those who want to visit and work can enter with ease). I'm all for a North American Union. What we need to do is increase the incentives of coming into this country LEGALLY.

So before you think about calling me naive or say that I think that it's all right to exploit Mexican labor and that I think that our inept government is always correct, you can go f**k yourself.

[Spider-Bite]

A wall is a horrible idea. Too many endangered species live in that area, and a wall would be too much of an obstacle for breeding, water, food, etc.

[hippie_hunter]

A wall is a horrible idea. Too many endangered species live in that area, and a wall would be too much of an obstacle for breeding, water, food, etc.

The birds will be fine, but what else lives there that we would have to worry about?

[ANTOINE X]

You're an idiot if you think that's how I believe. I've constantly criticized the government for doing or saying what I think is wrong. I think that the people who hire willingly and knowingly illegal Mexicans and pay them below minimum wage need to be punished, more so than the illegal Mexicans trying to get in this country simply because they want to make a better living for themselves and their family. They're exploiting them.


I'm all for an integrated world and closer ties, but I do believe in a thing such as borders. I feel that we do need to patrol our borders for security reasons. You're naive to think if we didn't have a thing such as a wall or tougher border security, that a terrorist group, or a drug dealer would not take advantage of it.

It's like you've literally ignored everything I've said:

1. We need to target employers who willingly and knowingly hire illegal immigrants. This will also decrease the motives of the majority of the people who want to come into this country illegally.

2. We need tougher border security such as a wall, such as positioning our military there, etc. This is for necessary security purposes and keeping out ILLEGAL immigrants.

3. We need to make it easier for people who want to come and live in this country, to work in this country, and be a part of this country. We should allow more immigrants in. Our government should help immigrants accommodate to living in this country by helping them master the English language, by making sure that they know our laws, by making sure that they get a fairly paying job and not being exploited, we should help them get educated. We should implement a looser version of the Schengen Agreement to take place between the United States, Canada, and Mexico (no passports, those who want to visit and work can enter with ease). I'm all for a North American Union. What we need to do is increase the incentives of coming into this country LEGALLY.

So before you think about calling me naive or say that I think that it's all right to exploit Mexican labor and that I think that our inept government is always correct, you can go f**k yourself.


LFAMO! woooo let relax here my friend. All i m saying is thats some people act like kids: they take a toy then when they re bored whit it they trow it and take an other. Same thing here :they take mexicans and when they find an other country that as a better deal they put a big wall and bye! bye! That wall is gonna cost hours of work for Americans. IT is so uncivilized to do such thing!

You say you afraid of drug dealers going in your country? when America is full of drug dealers him self! HE has an history of drugs that can scare Mexicans!! During the 70s & 80s Americans were happily dealing with Colombians drug so their bank could be fatter then its already is!

You say you don't feel secure? What about decreasing gun shop in America?there is as many as mcdonalds. All those shooting in school. That s the kind of thing you should be scared of.

So stop trying to point fingers on others when the problem is in your own country! good night!

[hippie_hunter]

LFAMO! woooo let relax here my friend. All i m saying is thats some people act like kids: they take a toy then when they re bored whit it they trow it and take an other. Same thing here :they take mexicans and when they find an other country that as a better deal they put a big wall and bye! bye! That wall is gonna cost hours of work for Americans. IT is so uncivilized to do such thing!

You say you afraid of drug dealers going in your country? when America is full of drug dealers him self! HE has an history of drugs that can scare Mexicans!! During the 70s & 80s Americans were happily dealing with Colombians drug so their bank could be fatter then its already is!

You say you don't feel secure? What about decreasing gun shop in America?there is as many as mcdonalds. All those shooting in school. That s the kind of thing you should be scared of.

So stop trying to point fingers on others when the problem is in your own country! good night!

Oh I thought you were refering to me personally. My bad. Because you do have a point there many Americans really don't know how to place their priorities with their fears.

[Mr Sparkle]

That is a load of crap.
Dont get me wrong, I am American and I know that we can be arrogant about our own existance in the world. But you cannot deny the US is one of the most philanthropic people out there.

look up the bracero program.

How are the enforced borders useless? Seems to me that unenforced borders are the ones that question why borders exist at all. :huh:

they are pretty useless nowadays. I mean, to me, I have friends on either side of the border, lines that say "from this point on this is such and such country"? fine, but walls with guards and ****?
idiotic.

[Mr Sparkle]

No it is a "secure borders" bill - but it needs to be apart of any immigration bill. I understand (and hate) that this has become viewed as a "redneck" issue - and there is nothing that I hate more than rednecks and that culture. But to me, this is far more tough love than discrimination. If Immigrants refuse to learn English - they are at a horrible disadvantage - and the country as a whole is hurt by it.

the country as a whole receives a positive economic boost by 1% yeah, that's pretty marginal, but still.
plus, other countries function well with two languages.
I remember a 60 minutes special from like 13 years ago criticizing some politician in Canada for trying to phase out the use of the English Language and shift it to a French speaking country.
just saying is all.

The Berlin wall split a country into two. It separated families and divided people from freedom and communism.

This is dividing two separate countries - two separate cultures - two separate histories - two separate people.

The two are not comparable - outside of both being about a hunk of brick.

have you ever lived in a Border town?
ask yourself what it's really "separating" it seems kind of intangible to me.
the rules of each country would still be enforced by each country and limits of each country respected, but a wall?

retarded to no end.

I support the idea of building a wall along the Mexican and Canadian borders. Right now it is just too damn easy to go through them both.

We definetely need the military to patrol down there with Border Patrol and apply non-lethal techniques to keep them out.

I'm all for people comming to this country to make a better living. I feel that we should let more people in. I feel that we should have a lesser form of Schengen Agreement with Canada and Mexico (no passports, let people who want to come to visit, to work, etc. come with ease but make sure that they aren't trafficing people, weapons, drug, and other illegal activities). But it has to be done legally.

seriously, people need to stop saying how easy it is to get through the Mexico side, you really need to stop believing all the lines you're fed.
people die routinely because it's NOT easy to go across.
Military patrol?
dumb, and a waste of resources.
I always laugh at all the security at the border, because if someone wants to hurt your country they will, regardless of all the gadgets and armed men "protecting" it.
the whole of the Americas should be cooperating to better use our natural resources and make lives for everyone better.
I mean, between the whole continent there's limitless possibilities for trade and other neat stuff.


in closing?

wall, bad idea, waste of resources and misdirection when you think about it.
"ooh Mexicans are stealing my job!...help me!" Tijuana is infested with call centers, you can't buy a product in the US without being transfered either to Mexico or India for customer service, maybe instead of walls, fair trade and business practices should be used to keep jobs in the states, and the jobs that are taken elsewhere pay humane wages.

I mean, what's the point of having a 6 year old chinese girl put together your sneakers if you still have to pay 120 dlls for them?:huh:

[terry78]

^Traitor! :cmad:

[StorminNorman]

they are pretty useless nowadays. I mean, to me, I have friends on either side of the border, lines that say "from this point on this is such and such country"? fine, but walls with guards and ****?
idiotic.

Idiotic? No.

Borders are not defined by walls.

Borders are accepted start and stop of a country. But if there is nothing enforcing where one country starts and one country ends - then there is no true border.

[StorminNorman]

the country as a whole receives a positive economic boost by 1% yeah, that's pretty marginal, but still.
plus, other countries function well with two languages.
I remember a 60 minutes special from like 13 years ago criticizing some politician in Canada for trying to phase out the use of the English Language and shift it to a French speaking country.
just saying is all.

America is the only country that lacks a national language.

Also - there was never a Canadian politican that tried to make all of Canada get rid of English. There was a politician from a single Canadian territory
(Ontario I believe).

have you ever lived in a Border town?
ask yourself what it's really "separating" it seems kind of intangible to me.
the rules of each country would still be enforced by each country and limits of each country respected, but a wall?

retarded to no end.

LOL - the rules of each country would still be enforced? By entering this country illegally American rules are being broken. Are not being respected.

A wall would make it harder for people to illegally cross the border, correct? It is not a cure all - though, of course. This would help American laws to be respected.


seriously, people need to stop saying how easy it is to get through the Mexico side, you really need to stop believing all the lines you're fed.
people die routinely because it's NOT easy to go across.
Military patrol?
dumb, and a waste of resources.
I always laugh at all the security at the border, because if someone wants to hurt your country they will, regardless of all the gadgets and armed men "protecting" it.
the whole of the Americas should be cooperating to better use our natural resources and make lives for everyone better.
I mean, between the whole continent there's limitless possibilities for trade and other neat stuff.

I don't care how hard it is to get through the border. It clearly need to be harder. Much harder. Because its being crossed by the millions today.

wall, bad idea, waste of resources and misdirection when you think about it.
"ooh Mexicans are stealing my job!...help me!" Tijuana is infested with call centers, you can't buy a product in the US without being transfered either to Mexico or India for customer service, maybe instead of walls, fair trade and business practices should be used to keep jobs in the states, and the jobs that are taken elsewhere pay humane wages.

I mean, what's the point of having a 6 year old chinese girl put together your sneakers if you still have to pay 120 dlls for them?:huh:

I also could care less about "Mexicans stealing my job" - I really don't. If people want to enter America to live a better life - I don't care. Good for them. Whatever.

I care more about the people that don't care about making their life and their families life better. The drug dealers, the gangs, etc. While a wall would not stop them - it would make it harder. And it would help protect American immigration laws - even though I fully admit the ones most affected are the ones just looking for a better life.

I want more legal pathways to help these people. Doing it illegally is not good for this country - or, ultimately, them.

[Malice]

Boy this has gotten a little more heated.

[ElToro]

Man,i don't even know why they have a thread for this.

[StorminNorman]

Man,i don't even know why they have a thread for this.

:dry:


:confused:

[ElToro]

:dry:


:confused:
Sorry dude.This kind of effects me because i have family members that are Immigrats.

[StorminNorman]

Sorry dude.This kind of effects me because i have family members that are Immigrats.

But how does that at all equate to us not needing a thread about this subject?

And...unless they are illegal immigrants, it has even less relevance.

[ElToro]

And...unless they are illegal immigrants, it has even less relevance.
Iam sorry what does relevance mean?

[StorminNorman]

Iam sorry what does relevance mean?


Main Entry:rel·e·vance http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?releva01.wav=relevance'))Pronunciation: \ˈre-lə-vən(t)s\ Function:noun Date:1733 1 a: relation to the matter at hand b: practical and especially social applicability : pertinence (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/pertinence) <giving relevance to college courses>2: the ability (as of an information retrieval system) to retrieve material that satisfies the needs of the user

[ElToro]

Main Entry:rel·e·vance http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?releva01.wav=relevance'))Pronunciation: \ˈre-lə-vən(t)s\ Function:noun Date:1733 1 a: relation to the matter at hand b: practical and especially social applicability : pertinence (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/pertinence) <giving relevance to college courses>2: the ability (as of an information retrieval system) to retrieve material that satisfies the needs of the user
OH.So this thread dosn't have any racesim in here?

[StorminNorman]

OH.So this thread dosn't have any racesim in here?

:dry:

I do not know about any others - but my views are not at all based on racism. Just reality.

[ElToro]

:dry:

I do not know about any others - but my views are not at all based on racism. Just reality.
Ok.My bad.Pretend i never went in here.

[terry78]

^The above exchange = ROFL

[Erzengel]

I'd send all of the foreigners back to their homes
For eating up all of our food

And taking all of our best jobs to boot
Like Landscaping, Dishwashing, picking our fruit

I'd pass a lot of laws to get rid of their brood..

[ElToro]

I'd send all of the foreigners back to their homes
For eating up all of our food

And taking all of our best jobs to boot
Like Landscaping, Dishwashing, picking our fruit

I'd get rid of them and their brood..
Have you seen that movie
A DAY WITHOUT A MEXICAN?

[StorminNorman]

I'd send all of the foreigners back to their homes
For eating up all of our food

And taking all of our best jobs to boot
Like Landscaping, Dishwashing, picking our fruit

I'd get rid of them and their brood..

As long as we can take their women :up:

Actually - the women should be hand picked. No need for foreign uglys in MY country.

[Arcturus]

"dey Took Our Jebs!!"

[Erzengel]

Have you seen that movie
A DAY WITHOUT A MEXICAN?
I don't watch foreign films. :o

[ElToro]

I don't watch foreign films. :o
OK fine.Watch it.
Its good.Its funny.

[Malice]

The last few posts are frightening

[SuBe]

I think the idea of a border is a redneck idea
So, the Countries arent allow to have borders? That is asinine! Or are you saying that only the United States shouldnt have borders? That is ridiculas, you think we should be some Homogenous blob of a country?

[ANTOINE X]

So, the Countries arent allow to have borders? That is asinine! Or are you saying that only the United States shouldnt have borders? That is ridiculas, you think we should be some Homogenous blob of a country?


Im gonna have to say have went too far when I say the red neck thing but rather saying that it s naive to think a wall will fix the problem.

No country should put a wall between each other unless there s an extremely dangerous virus like 28 weeks :whatever:

[Erzengel]

Hu Jintao tear down that wall.

[Mr Sparkle]

Idiotic? No.

Borders are not defined by walls.

Borders are accepted start and stop of a country. But if there is nothing enforcing where one country starts and one country ends - then there is no true border.

that is ridiculous.
I guess if you have a front yard without an armed guard you have no way of knowing where your house begins :huh:

America is the only country that lacks a national language.

Also - there was never a Canadian politican that tried to make all of Canada get rid of English. There was a politician from a single Canadian territory
(Ontario I believe).

regardless of where it was, the point stands doesn't it? I'm recalling a memory from more than a decade ago, and the particualrs don't really affect the main body of the argument.
plus, when you think about it, first part of this post only strenghtens my case.


LOL - the rules of each country would still be enforced? By entering this country illegally American rules are being broken. Are not being respected.

what part of "enforced" is too difficult for you to comprehend?:huh:
what does the current situation have to do with my hypothetical situation?
besides, this isn't about " respect" is it?
this kind of schoolyard mentality is the root of the problem.
so now people can go across your borders, big deal...you'd spend less money of you enforced laws on employers anyway.


A wall would make it harder for people to illegally cross the border, correct? It is not a cure all - though, of course. This would help American laws to be respected.

again with the respect ,you understand that this isn't a "respect" issue is it?
they are not crossing the border to disrespect you, what are you, Joe Pesci?:huh:



I don't care how hard it is to get through the border. It clearly need to be harder. Much harder. Because its being crossed by the millions today.

It wasn't about you caring, it was about you knowing what you're talking about, because saying that it is easy to cross the border illegaly from the Mexico side was an ignorant thing to say.
regardless if you care about it or not.



I also could care less about "Mexicans stealing my job" - I really don't. If people want to enter America to live a better life - I don't care. Good for them. Whatever.

I care more about the people that don't care about making their life and their families life better. The drug dealers, the gangs, etc. While a wall would not stop them - it would make it harder. And it would help protect American immigration laws - even though I fully admit the ones most affected are the ones just looking for a better life.

I want more legal pathways to help these people. Doing it illegally is not good for this country - or, ultimately, them.

hmmm, yeah, this isn't and has never been about "gangs" or criminals.
the criminals have visas and money and they cross legally sometimes living in the US LEGALLY.
gangs?
yeah, I forgot the south Amricans invented gangs, and if you're thinking about the much fabled Mara Salvatrucha, much of their newly gained power has originated from the "coyote" trade, oh sweet sweet Irony.
you keep saying " protect immigration laws" protect them from what?
seriously? can you actually say, or are you just thinking " hey, they said this was important, so it must be important"?
again, enforced borders are a joke, and again, we'd do better as a whole continent if one could think " I'm going to vacation in Canada and take a road trip to the US" and one was able to do so.
these borders are actually alowing us down and hurting us more than they protect .

[ANTOINE X]

Understand that your government's doesn't really care about his people. All he care is his own investment. You think its because of drug dealers?Please that s what I call a beautiful speech so that the naives gets on their side. The truth is they just find new girls friends to play with:China and and india. When those 2 will be too expensive the government will go back home to call his ex girl friend Mexico and he will tell her some s*** like i m sorry, I still love U.Than the government s gonna break that Wall as a symbol of unity(an other bull**** speech so that the poor Americans who put all their sweat wont be frustrated.) and marry Mexico...Thats until he find a new girl friend again.:whatever:

[Mr Sparkle]

So, the Countries arent allow to have borders? That is asinine! Or are you saying that only the United States shouldnt have borders? That is ridiculas, you think we should be some Homogenous blob of a country?

I think there's an unwritten rule that you can't use the word " asinine" and then misspell " ridiculous ".
besides, the fact that there's no enforced borders doesn't mean that you can't have your own country and have it be sovereign.
I mean, how do states work in your country, last time I checked you don't have to pass a check point or jump walls to go from state to state and yet they have their own laws, customs and tradition.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Understand that your government's doesn't really care about his people. All he care is his own investment. You think its because of drug dealers?Please that s what I call a beautiful speech so that the naives gets on their side. The truth is they just find new girls friends to play with:China and and india. When those 2 will be too expensive the government will go back home to call his ex girl friend Mexico and he will tell her some s*** like i m sorry, I still love U.Than the government s gonna break that Wall as a symbol of unity(an other bull**** speech so that the poor Americans who put all their sweat wont be frustrated.) and marry Mexico...Thats until he find a new girl friend again.
What's your first language? :huh:

[ANTOINE X]

What's your first language? :huh:

french

[Wilhelm-Scream]

You should post in French and we'll pop it into babelfish.

[ANTOINE X]

and creole but it s not listed as a language . I also talk a bit Spanish.

[ANTOINE X]

You should post in French and we'll pop it into babelfish.


what ABOUT F*** YOUR SELF?

[Wilhelm-Scream]

what ABOUT F*** YOUR SELF?Wow, I typed "GO F*** YOURSELF" into Babel Fish to translate it from English to French.
Then I took what it said the French translation was, and tried to translate that into English, and it said, "Disappear kisses it yourself."

That site's worthless. :eek:

[Mr Sparkle]

hahaha WTF?

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Hey! :cmad:
Disappear kisses it yourself, PAL! :cmad:

[ANTOINE X]

Wow, I typed "GO F*** YOURSELF" into Babel Fish to translate it from English to French.
Then I took what it said the French translation was, and tried to translate that into English, and it said, "Disappear kisses it yourself."

That site's worthless. :eek:


What ever son.. be happy that its all virtual cause in reality that would be your last reply...

[Mr Sparkle]

hahaha, runt needs to come in here and start one of her obscene tirades in German, that would make this thread complete.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

What ever son.. be happy that its all virtual cause in reality that would be your last reply...How do you mean? :huh:

[Mee]

How do you mean? :huh:
For a Frenchman, this guy's got some fight in em.



Hi-OH!

[ANTOINE X]

How do you mean? :huh:


btw I have never seen such ugly avatar. Seriously we re you high when you picked this one? :huh:

[Mr Sparkle]

hijackers the lot of you, you might as well have said " all hail almighty Alah!!" when you came in, or written the equivalent of ululation.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

btw I have never seen such ugly avatar. Seriously we re you high when you picked this one? :huh:Well we can't all have a Mr. T avatar.

You should calm down, mon ami. :huh:

[Mee]

hijackers the lot of you, you might as well have said " all hail almighty Alah!!" when you came in, or written the equivalent of ululation.
We crossed the border of this thread, and messed everything up with our foreign ways. :csad:

[Mr Sparkle]

We crossed the border of this thread, and messed everything up with our foreign ways. :csad:

you took'r thred!:cmad::cmad::cmad:

[Mee]

...Kay? :huh:

[Kel]

btw I have never seen such ugly avatar. Seriously we re you high when you picked this one? :huh:

Let me just say as a mod.......WS' avatar is the equivalent of an icon around these parts.....any and all people dissing this icon will be banned immediately...........:cmad: :cmad:


































j/k :cwink:
But the avatar really is an icon, and above all dissing comments....
Ya big meanie....:o

[StorminNorman]

that is ridiculous.
I guess if you have a front yard without an armed guard you have no way of knowing where your house begins :huh:

Front yards are generally enclosed with roads - side walks, etc. Visible markers telling me where my land is and where it ends.

My sides yards that run into my neighbors side yards are incredibly hard to mark without such markers. That is why its too hard to fuss if his dog craps on my side of the imaginary boundary. A wall would prevent that of course.

regardless of where it was, the point stands doesn't it? I'm recalling a memory from more than a decade ago, and the particualrs don't really affect the main body of the argument.
plus, when you think about it, first part of this post only strenghtens my case.

No not at all. The culture of Quebec had far more in common with French culture than English due to it being a Provence chiefly inhibited by French immigrants. In fact there have been movements made to make Quebec a distinct society from the rest of Canada itself.

Thus whatever point you were making is completely irrelevant.
what part of "enforced" is too difficult for you to comprehend?:huh:
what does the current situation have to do with my hypothetical situation?
besides, this isn't about " respect" is it?
this kind of schoolyard mentality is the root of the problem.
so now people can go across your borders, big deal...you'd spend less money of you enforced laws on employers anyway.

By taking away immigration laws you are slowly paving towards an American Union which I strongly oppose. America and Mexico and Canada are three separate countries with separate governments with separate cultures. I want that sovereignty protected. The idea of an open border where whoever the hell can enter wherever the hell they want with no background check is stupid, naive and dangerous.

And - it is about respecting American laws. If you enter America - you have to live by the laws of the country - RESPECT the laws of the country - by entering the country illegally you are breaking the laws. Period. Its not some schoolyard mentality as you try to paint it as in an attempt to speak down to anyone who dares want America Immigration laws to be enforced.

again with the respect ,you understand that this isn't a "respect" issue is it?
they are not crossing the border to disrespect you, what are you, Joe Pesci?:huh:

Yes - how dare I want American immigration laws enforced :huh:

It wasn't about you caring, it was about you knowing what you're talking about, because saying that it is easy to cross the border illegaly from the Mexico side was an ignorant thing to say.
regardless if you care about it or not.

Congrats, if you took a mere second to check your original post - you would see I wasn't the one to make that argument :up:

But he does have a point - it is apparently TOO easy to cross the border right now. Now I am not saying it is an easy feat that anyone can do - its hard, grueling, blah blah blah - but since we have millions crossing it. We need to add more challenge. We need to make it harder than it is now.

hmmm, yeah, this isn't and has never been about "gangs" or criminals.
the criminals have visas and money and they cross legally sometimes living in the US LEGALLY.
gangs?
yeah, I forgot the south Amricans invented gangs, and if you're thinking about the much fabled Mara Salvatrucha, much of their newly gained power has originated from the "coyote" trade, oh sweet sweet Irony.
you keep saying " protect immigration laws" protect them from what?
seriously? can you actually say, or are you just thinking " hey, they said this was important, so it must be important"?
again, enforced borders are a joke, and again, we'd do better as a whole continent if one could think " I'm going to vacation in Canada and take a road trip to the US" and one was able to do so.
these borders are actually alowing us down and hurting us more than they protect .

For me my concern has always been about it being an open wound for drugs, gangs, violence, terrorism - whatever.

I am not saying that America would be free of these things without an open border - that is just absurd. But isn't it equally absurd to have the mentality (which from reading your statement - is what I am getting from you) that "well since America has these things, there is no reason to try to stop people adding to it". Please - come on.

If someone from Mexico wants to visit Canada through America - fine. Do it legally. Get a passport, cross through the federal guidelines put in place to keep our country safe. Now should those be altered for them to be easier hoops to jump? Sure.

[bubblebutts]

i think immigration would be accepted in the US if it was done correctly.

[Mr Sparkle]

Front yards are generally enclosed with roads - side walks, etc. Visible markers telling me where my land is and where it ends.

My sides yards that run into my neighbors side yards are incredibly hard to mark without such markers. That is why its too hard to fuss if his dog craps on my side of the imaginary boundary. A wall would prevent that of course.

how do you "enclose"a front yard? there's a sidewalk and then there's your front yard, hence my point, plus your "side yard" argument is moot because while some choose to have walls or hedges some communities do not, while that was not my original point, it's still kinda makes MY point.
you will notice how you try and make an argument of visible markers ( which I already spoke about) but that has NOTHING to do with enforcement, my point is that much like states, rules and laws can change from place to place without there having to be a wall with armed guards on top of it so that you feel "safer".
so, yeah...NO.



No not at all. The culture of Quebec had far more in common with French culture than English due to it being a Provence chiefly inhibited by French immigrants. In fact there have been movements made to make Quebec a distinct society from the rest of Canada itself.

Thus whatever point you were making is completely irrelevant.

actually the point I was making was that they critcized her for trying to take away English from the community, both the commentators and some politicians in the US (I remember they were republicans) so actually, the point I made ( which you obviously can't grasp, but that's your problem) is pretty strong.:cwink:


By taking away immigration laws you are slowly paving towards an American Union which I strongly oppose. America and Mexico and Canada are three separate countries with separate governments with separate cultures. I want that sovereignty protected. The idea of an open border where whoever the hell can enter wherever the hell they want with no background check is stupid, naive and dangerous.

And - it is about respecting American laws. If you enter America - you have to live by the laws of the country - RESPECT the laws of the country - by entering the country illegally you are breaking the laws. Period. Its not some schoolyard mentality as you try to paint it as in an attempt to speak down to anyone who dares want America Immigration laws to be enforced.

hahaha! I said in my post that I think immigration laws should be enforced.
what part of "enforced borders" versus "enforced immigration laws" si too damned complex for you to grasp?
plus opposing an American union IS naive and stupid.
I mean, seriously, this has nothing to do with sovereignty I have already supplied the simples argument of states rights which are respected regardless of there being a big wall there to "protect" you.
you don't want to be talked down to? start making coherent arguments about the points raised rather than the argument you're making up in your head, because that's childish and will ALWAYS elicit people talking down to you.
simple fact of life.



Yes - how dare I want American immigration laws enforced :huh:

haha! how dare I want you to comprehend what you read?



Congrats, if you took a mere second to check your original post - you would see I wasn't the one to make that argument :up:

hahaha! and it WAS an ignorant thing to say regardless IF YOU care about it or not.
reading is NOT your friend, Ironic how you want people to learn English and don't bother with it much yourself.


But he does have a point - it is apparently TOO easy to cross the border right now. Now I am not saying it is an easy feat that anyone can do - its hard, grueling, blah blah blah - but since we have millions crossing it. We need to add more challenge. We need to make it harder than it is now.

I think a grueling obstacle course with some alligators with freaking lazers on their head, but hey, congrats now you said an ignorant thing too :up:


For me my concern has always been about it being an open wound for drugs, gangs, violence, terrorism - whatever.

I am not saying that America would be free of these things without an open border - that is just absurd. But isn't it equally absurd to have the mentality (which from reading your statement - is what I am getting from you) that "well since America has these things, there is no reason to try to stop people adding to it". Please - come on.

If someone from Mexico wants to visit Canada through America - fine. Do it legally. Get a passport, cross through the federal guidelines put in place to keep our country safe. Now should those be altered for them to be easier hoops to jump? Sure.

actually that wasn't what I said at all, not even remotely.
what I did say was that criminals aren't stopped by enforced borders, because they ...uh..never have been, so that's not it.
last time I checked the terrorist came through your airports so terrorism isn't it either and drugs?
well, they are produced in YOUR country as well as others, so really, seems like Drug enforcement and programs would do much better in curtailing the drug use than just cutting off the supply line when it can be easily replaced.
it has nothing to do with "trying to stop adding to it" it has everything to do with actually stopping it, and spending less time in debates that mean nothing and only distract people from real issues.
and why do you keep thinking that I only mean people in Mexico.
I want EVERYONE to be able to travel freely from one country to the next, instead of spending millions of dollars in border enforcement putting them to use in other aspects of law enforcement that actually work.
I remember in october they had this program in channel 10 news about stolen cars and how thieves smuggled them into Mexico.
now, they traced them with choppers and could follow them all the way down to the border and the pilot goes like "if only they'd let us follow them we could retrieve a lot of stolen cars :cmad:" and I stood there thinking, yeah, that makes a ton of sense, they SHOULD let the police choppers follow them and spot where they are going and hell, even work WITH Tijuana police to retrieve them, that would be great.
and then I thought like, "how stupid are the Tijuana cops to NOT do that" but then, I got to thinking about how Mexican aircraft cannot fly above US airspace and how back in 93 there was this big stink during the floods about how choppers were trying to spot victims in the Tijuana river but US air control wouldn't let them circle past a certain point.

so you see it goes both ways and both ways are stupid as hell, we should focus more on uniting than dividing, because we're all here on earth and we all face the same difficulties in the coming years, San Diego is going through a water shortage and 6 years ago it had buy electricity from Mexico because of the whole "energy crisis" thing....so should we all ficus on working together?

[StorminNorman]

how do you "enclose"a front yard? there's a sidewalk and then there's your front yard, hence my point, plus your "side yard" argument is moot because while some choose to have walls or hedges some communities do not, while that was not my original point, it's still kinda makes MY point.
you will notice how you try and make an argument of visible markers ( which I already spoke about) but that has NOTHING to do with enforcement, my point is that much like states, rules and laws can change from place to place without there having to be a wall with armed guards on top of it so that you feel "safer".
so, yeah...NO.

Your front yard is contained by the roads, side walks, etc. It does not go on and on. Your entire metaphor was broken - but whatever. I am not going to argue about front and side yards.

I am confused about what you want. Do you want people just to enter America, not being in the system at all and as long as they abide by our laws - they don't break our laws? Because thats ridiculous.

actually the point I was making was that they critcized her for trying to take away English from the community, both the commentators and some politicians in the US (I remember they were republicans) so actually, the point I made ( which you obviously can't grasp, but that's your problem) is pretty strong.:cwink:

The idea SHOULD of been criticized because its stupid. Imagine Quebec teaching as French in the first language - it completely isolates that province from the rest of the country its apart of.

Again - your point is invalid.

hahaha! I said in my post that I think immigration laws should be enforced.
what part of "enforced borders" versus "enforced immigration laws" si too damned complex for you to grasp?
plus opposing an American union IS naive and stupid.
I mean, seriously, this has nothing to do with sovereignty I have already supplied the simples argument of states rights which are respected regardless of there being a big wall there to "protect" you.
you don't want to be talked down to? start making coherent arguments about the points raised rather than the argument you're making up in your head, because that's childish and will ALWAYS elicit people talking down to you.
simple fact of life.

You can't have enforced immigrations laws if there are no enforced borders. If anyone can enter the country without the need of legal immigration - the need to go through those little annoying immigration laws that serve to protect Americans are completely ignored.

If Mexico was willing to enforce American law - then your argument about states rights would be valid. The Mexican government, however, does not. In fact they constantly aid those trying to illegally enter America.

An American Union is not needed.

haha! how dare I want you to comprehend what you read?

LOL, yes - ignore the valid point with a childish, immature, personal attack. Brilliant :up:

hahaha! and it WAS an ignorant thing to say regardless IF YOU care about it or not.
reading is NOT your friend, Ironic how you want people to learn English and don't bother with it much yourself.

I think a grueling obstacle course with some alligators with freaking lazers on their head, but hey, congrats now you said an ignorant thing too :up:

It is not ignorant to say that it is far to easy to cross the border when it is done by the millions every year. There is clearly a problem here. There has to be more deterrents to stopping illegal immigration - and making it tougher to cross the border should be one of them.

Of course it needs to be practical - I am not opposed to walling, more - better funded border patrols and other ways of hindering those trying to break into America illegally.

actually that wasn't what I said at all, not even remotely.
what I did say was that criminals aren't stopped by enforced borders, because they ...uh..never have been, so that's not it.
last time I checked the terrorist came through your airports so terrorism isn't it either and drugs?
well, they are produced in YOUR country as well as others, so really, seems like Drug enforcement and programs would do much better in curtailing the drug use than just cutting off the supply line when it can be easily replaced.
it has nothing to do with "trying to stop adding to it" it has everything to do with actually stopping it, and spending less time in debates that mean nothing and only distract people from real issues.

Are you denying that the American-Mexican border is a hot spot of drug activity? Of violence and gangs and urban warfare?

The America-Mexican Border has never been properly enforced. So we do not know how effective securing it would be to stop these problems. But we need to do everything we can to help secure American interests. Having an open border does make us more vulnerable to terrorists, to criminals, drug dealers - thats not arguable. Yes - there are other areas where we need to combat these forces as well, but even if we made it so no terrorist could pass through American airports - with the open border, American will never be as safe as it can be. Again - this is just common sense. America does not benefit from having an open border - outside of cheap labor, which needs to be stopped as well. Hiring people to work in America under our minimum wage isn't right either.

and why do you keep thinking that I only mean people in Mexico.
I want EVERYONE to be able to travel freely from one country to the next, instead of spending millions of dollars in border enforcement putting them to use in other aspects of law enforcement that actually work.
I remember in october they had this program in channel 10 news about stolen cars and how thieves smuggled them into Mexico.
now, they traced them with choppers and could follow them all the way down to the border and the pilot goes like "if only they'd let us follow them we could retrieve a lot of stolen cars :cmad:" and I stood there thinking, yeah, that makes a ton of sense, they SHOULD let the police choppers follow them and spot where they are going and hell, even work WITH Tijuana police to retrieve them, that would be great.
and then I thought like, "how stupid are the Tijuana cops to NOT do that" but then, I got to thinking about how Mexican aircraft cannot fly above US airspace and how back in 93 there was this big stink during the floods about how choppers were trying to spot victims in the Tijuana river but US air control wouldn't let them circle past a certain point.

so you see it goes both ways and both ways are stupid as hell, we should focus more on uniting than dividing, because we're all here on earth and we all face the same difficulties in the coming years, San Diego is going through a water shortage and 6 years ago it had buy electricity from Mexico because of the whole "energy crisis" thing....so should we all ficus on working together?

I don't care about traveling freely from one country to another. I care about immigrating from one country to another which is what open borders will do. Open borders will allow anyone who can brave the trip over to live - without the American government knowing who they are, what their past is. That is not good for our country.

We need to focus on having our governments work closer - but we do not need to be moving towards one government for the Americas. The two countries should always be separate.

[Matt]

Sparkle, Norman...cool it off. Keep this civil. If you are going to debate, fine. Do so without the insults. If you can't do that, walk away from the debate.

Cheers.

[Kel]

Also - there was never a Canadian politican that tried to make all of Canada get rid of English. There was a politician from a single Canadian territory
(Ontario I believe).

Actually, it is the province of Quebec, not a territory....there is a VERY strong separatist movement in Quebec, led by the Quebecois which wants a totally French culture in Quebec, which back in the 70's led to all street signs, business signs, etc being changed from English to French. Because of the large immigration population of Quebec that have become citizens and can vote, the (I believe) 2x that a vote came up for secession it was voted down by the people. The large recent immigrant population is cited as one of the biggest reason this has been voted down.

[Mr Sparkle]

Your front yard is contained by the roads, side walks, etc. It does not go on and on. Your entire metaphor was broken - but whatever. I am not going to argue about front and side yards.

yes, and you know I mean "wall" or fences, and while some houses DO have fences in their front yards, others don't and function perfectly too
please stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

I am confused about what you want. Do you want people just to enter America, not being in the system at all and as long as they abide by our laws - they don't break our laws? Because thats ridiculous.

hmm, why do you keep focusing on "America" (just so you know America is a CONTINENT) I'm saying people in America ( oh irony) should be able to travel freely from one place to the next, once arriving at said place they would have to abide by said places rules IE if you need documentation to work and you DON'T have it, you CAN'T work.

get it?



The idea SHOULD of been criticized because its stupid. Imagine Quebec teaching as French in the first language - it completely isolates that province from the rest of the country its apart of.

Again - your point is invalid.

it's not actually, because it wasn't criticized for that, it was because the people that DID critique it thought that it "targeted" English speakers.
and since I highly doubt that you watched 60 minutes 13 to 15 years ago you wouldn't know would you? you're just trying desperately to have an argument when you pretty much know you don't.
again, since you didn't even know what my point was, it's pretty sad you keep trying.



You can't have enforced immigrations laws if there are no enforced borders. If anyone can enter the country without the need of legal immigration - the need to go through those little annoying immigration laws that serve to protect Americans are completely ignored.

that's ridiculous.
if any can enter the country as a visitor but not stay legally or own property or any of the things immigrants CAN'T do, the laws are easily enforced and you CAN properly enforce them.
I mean DUH.
and you keep saying Immigration laws are the to "protect" US citizens?
haha! from what?:huh:

If Mexico was willing to enforce American law - then your argument about states rights would be valid. The Mexican government, however, does not. In fact they constantly aid those trying to illegally enter America.

of course not, completely to the contrary, the open borders would work because Mexico WOULDN'T enforce US law anymore than the US would have to abide by Mexican law.
seriously WTF?:whatever:

An American Union is not needed.
I'm sorry, but I have a very low regard for your opinion on this matter as I feel you're uninformed and have a very "parrot-like"stance on this iisue.



LOL, yes - ignore the valid point with a childish, immature, personal attack. Brilliant :up:

actually it wasn't a "valid point" it was question and a dumb question.
sorry if you think you had a point, but you didn't and before you say in typical fashion "yes, yes I did" let me stop you right there and say that if you still can't understand half of my argument, even though anyone with a passing knowledge of states rights, history and the English language could. then what am I to do? there's plenty of valid points to be brought up against my idea, I have discussed it before with many people and some thoughtful things were brought to my attention.
it's just YOU haven't done so.



It is not ignorant to say that it is far to easy to cross the border when it is done by the millions every year. There is clearly a problem here. There has to be more deterrents to stopping illegal immigration - and making it tougher to cross the border should be one of them.

actually, since you probably mean "thousands" you're of course "wrong" since the estimate is somewhere between 400,000 and 700,000 since 1992.
and like I said some of them don't even do it through Mexico.
but I like how you forgot to mention "make it harder to cross the border" and forgot "illegally" interesting Freudian slip there.

Of course it needs to be practical - I am not opposed to walling, more - better funded border patrols and other ways of hindering those trying to break into America illegally.

like I said "obstacle course with killer cyborg alligators" that's an idea that's ahead of it's time.


Are you denying that the American-Mexican border is a hot spot of drug activity? Of violence and gangs and urban warfare?

gangs? yeah I can deny that one categorically, since it's not LA and it's not 1989 ( bloods for life YO!) what part of what I said isn't registering with you, here I'll post it again so you can read more carefully.

actually that wasn't what I said at all, not even remotely.
what I did say was that criminals aren't stopped by enforced borders, because they ...uh..never have been, so that's not it.
last time I checked the terrorist came through your airports so terrorism isn't it either and drugs?
well, they are produced in YOUR country as well as others, so really, seems like Drug enforcement and programs would do much better in curtailing the drug use than just cutting off the supply line when it can be easily replaced.
it has nothing to do with "trying to stop adding to it" it has everything to do with actually stopping it, and spending less time in debates that mean nothing and only distract people from real issues.I don't think anything there says anything close to "denying"criminal activity, you might be reading some other post or squinting your eyes a lot like those magic pictures from the 90's asked you to.
otherwise I don't know where you got that from.:huh:



The America-Mexican Border has never been properly enforced. So we do not know how effective securing it would be to stop these problems. But we need to do everything we can to help secure American interests. Having an open border does make us more vulnerable to terrorists, to criminals, drug dealers - thats not arguable. Yes - there are other areas where we need to combat these forces as well, but even if we made it so no terrorist could pass through American airports - with the open border, American will never be as safe as it can be. Again - this is just common sense. America does not benefit from having an open border - outside of cheap labor, which needs to be stopped as well. Hiring people to work in America under our minimum wage isn't right either.

open borders benefit everyone, especially in such close proximity to one another.
"secure American interests" now you're just borrowing foreign policy phrases ill-applied to this debate.
I keep hearing that all you get is cheap labor, and that's ridiculous, ask the people in California after 9-11 that asked the government for a million dollar bailout when they made border security so tight that it took an average of 3 hours to get through.
result? people in Mexico said "**** it, I'll watch a movie here" and the economic impact of reduced tourism was felt almost all the way up to orange county.
again, a few weeks later it took an average half hour to 40 minutes to get across and everyone was happy again.
so yeah, keep dreaming.


I don't care about traveling freely from one country to another. I care about immigrating from one country to another which is what open borders will do. Open borders will allow anyone who can brave the trip over to live - without the American government knowing who they are, what their past is. That is not good for our country.

why would that be? when immigration laws would still apply?:huh:

We need to focus on having our governments work closer - but we do not need to be moving towards one government for the Americas. The two countries should always be separate.

who said ANYTHING about one government.
you do understand that a UNION doesn't necessarily mean a "merging of countries" but mostly of resources.
I never said it should be ONE government.:huh:
why do you keep arguing about things no on has ever said, not even the proponents of an American union have proposed a single governing body.

haha! and it case they had, like we don't know who would be running it.
yeah, I'm sure you'd be a Mexican colony within the week :whatever: you being so militarily weak and all.

[Mr Sparkle]

Sparkle, Norman...cool it off. Keep this civil. If you are going to debate, fine. Do so without the insults. If you can't do that, walk away from the debate.

Cheers.

but, but it's the internet!:huh: I don't care if he insults me, I don't think he cares if I....eh never mind, I'll try and keep it civil most honorable people's republic of superherohype representative.

[Kel]

open borders benefit everyone, especially in such close proximity to one another.
"secure American interests" now you're just borrowing foreign policy phrases ill-applied to this debate.
I keep hearing that all you get is cheap labor, and that's ridiculous, ask the people in California after 9-11 that asked the government for a million dollar bailout when they made border security so tight that it took an average of 3 hours to get through.
result? people in Mexico said "**** it, I'll watch a movie here" and the economic impact of reduced tourism was felt almost all the way up to orange county.
again, a few weeks later it took an average half hour to 40 minutes to get across and everyone was happy again.
so yeah, keep dreaming.

Mr. S, I respect your dream, but unfortunately, IMHO......until Mexico gets its crap together as far as a stable government, economy etc......and until they get control of their border cities, as well as their problems with separatist movements in their southern states.........an open border is a bad idea, and I don't believe us opening our border to them will help in those matters.....Can we help? yes..... could we do more in helping them build their middle class, stabilize their government....very possibly..........but an open border system like Europe has, IMO is not the answer..."at this time"...in the future? very possible.

[Mr Sparkle]

acMr. S, I respect your dream, but unfortunately, IMHO......until Mexico gets its crap together as far as a stable government, economy etc......and until they get control of their border cities, as well as their problems with separatist movements in their southern states.........an open border is a bad idea, and I don't believe us opening our border to them will help in those matters.....Can we help? yes..... could we do more in helping them build their middle class, stabilize their government....very possibly..........but an open border system like Europe has, IMO is not the answer..."at this time"...in the future? very possible.

actually, I happen to disagree completely with this statement, but it's presented in such a way that I can totally see where you're coming from, and it makes a lot of sense, to a point.
the way I look at it is simple.
what's the point of opening the borders when everyone is already prosperous? the whole Idea behind it is to make prosperity available to all, and though we might find ourselves having a rather difficult start the END result FOR all would be grand.
Mexico and other countries in south America produce OIL, and other natural resources , and together as a continent we could be a Grand vision of harmony.
I just don't think we're socially ready for the impact.
but seriously, what would be the point of prosperous nations "opening" their borders?:huh:
"wow, everything looks great on your side"
"thanks, your side looks rockin' too! :up:"
"..."
"..."
"ok, bye!"
"see ya!"

I mean, I see no point in it.

[Kel]

ac

actually, I happen to disagree completely with this statement, but it's presented in such a way that I can totally see where you're coming from, and it makes a lot of sense, to a point.
the way I look at it is simple.
what's the point of opening the borders when everyone is already prosperous? the whole Idea behind it is to make prosperity available to all, and though we might find ourselves having a rather difficult start the END result FOR all would be grand.
Mexico and other countries in south America produce OIL, and other natural resources , and together as a continent we could be a Grand vision of harmony.
I just don't think we're socially ready for the impact.
but seriously, what would be the point of prosperous nations "opening" their borders?:huh:
"wow, everything looks great on your side"
"thanks, your side looks rockin' too! :up:"
"..."
"..."
"ok, bye!"
"see ya!"

I mean, I see no point in it.


I'm not saying both sides have to be in perfect unity, or exactly at the same socioeconomic standard of living.......the countries of the EU are not equal....BUT they do have stable governments.....countries in the Balkan region of Europe are wanting membership in the EU, but their chances are very limited because of the unstable political climate of these countries. Mexico has many of the same problems. Weak central government in terms of securing its 25 states, separatist movements, etc. I don't think it would be in the best interest of a country like the US to "open" its borders freely to a country like this.....not in today's climate.

[Mr Sparkle]

I'm sorry, but as crappy as Mexico is right now is nowhere NEAR Balkan level.
and there's no real "separatist" movement In Mexico, there's the Zapatistas but those guys are really old and not really in the mood to separate as much as negotiate.
the problem here is drug dealers.
I'd love to have a united police force with the ability to go after criminals in the whole continent for instance, no need for extradition.
woo hoo! less red tape.

[Kel]

I'm sorry, but as crappy as Mexico is right now is nowhere NEAR Balkan level.
and there's no real "separatist" movement In Mexico, there's the Zapatistas but those guys are really old and not really in the mood to separate as much as negotiate.
the problem here is drug dealers.
I'd love to have a united police force with the ability to go after criminals in the whole continent for instance, no need for extradition.
woo hoo! less red tape.

Nor would I put Mexico at the economic and stable level of Greece and Ireland when they joined the EU. Yes both countries are doing wonderful, but again Mexico still is not, IMO, stable enough in the political climate. One of the problems that many of the countries in Europe that are wanting to join is the fact that once the borders are opened, there will be a mass exodus of the small middle class that they have, along with the professionals of that country such as teachers, doctors, etc.

As far as no separatist movements? You may need to ask the people of Chiapas, they will probably have a differeing opinion than yours.

[Mr Sparkle]

Nor would I put Mexico at the economic and stable level of Greece and Ireland when they joined the EU. Yes both countries are doing wonderful, but again Mexico still is not, IMO, stable enough in the political climate. One of the problems that many of the countries in Europe that are wanting to join is the fact that once the borders are opened, there will be a mass exodus of the small middle class that they have, along with the professionals of that country such as teachers, doctors, etc.

As far as no separatist movements? You may need to ask the people of Chiapas, they will probably have a differeing opinion than yours.

well, I'm not putting them in the same economically stable level.
I'm saying that cooperation between the nations would only make this level more easily attainable and would no doubt be profitable to all parties involved.
and since the immigration laws would still be in effect ( and now even more stringently enforced with more money being funneled to them) the mass exodus thing gets handled to pretty much the same levels as it is now with an actual solution in the Horizon.
I wouldn't go to the states if there was an open border and I'm more than middle class, business opportunities make middle class and even upper class people stay and strong possibility of a return investment makes the richer still return.

and, I have asked some people in ( Chiapas ) seeing as one of my best friends is a teacher there and very active in the political movement ( as are most teachers, damn their hippie hearts) and it's pretty much how I said in the last post.
you are aware I have lived in Mexico all my life right?

[Kel]

well, I'm not putting them in the same economically stable level.
I'm saying that cooperation between the nations would only make this level more easily attainable and would no doubt be profitable to all parties involved.
and since the immigration laws would still be in effect ( and now even more stringently enforced with more money being funneled to them) the mass exodus thing gets handled to pretty much the same levels as it is now with an actual solution in the Horizon.
I wouldn't go to the states if there was an open border and I'm more than middle class, business opportunities make middle class and even upper class people stay and strong possibility of a return investment makes the richer still return.

and, I have asked some people in ( Chiapas ) seeing as one of my best friends is a teacher there and very active in the political movement ( as are most teachers, damn their hippie hearts) and it's pretty much how I said in the last post.
you are aware I have lived in Mexico all my life right?

I understand where you are coming from, and I think we believe in the same outcome.....I think our timing is what is in debate here. I definitely agree that opening the borders of our countries would help Mexico economically, if Mexico can handle the early years of transistion. Ireland barely survived its early years in the EU....of course now it is growing economically at a faster rate than even Great Britain. But I believe it had a stronger carrying capacity to weather the early years of of that transition. I do not believe that Mexico is to that point.

As far as Chiapas, I guess the Zapatistas have lost control of the municipalities they once controlled. I have a feeling that if the borders were open.....at this time, groups of this nature would "up the push...." so to speak much more than they did in the 90's.....

But in the end.....as I said, I think we agree that the end is justifiable, and one that would be a positive for all involved. I just disagree that it is something that needs to happen now, or even in the next decade.

Also, please understand that my opinion, is not based on an unfavorable view of Mexico. It does not to any degree....

I HAPPEN TO BELIEVE, that there are areas that the US needs to work on before have totally free and open borders to Canada.....:yay:

[Mr Sparkle]

well that's fair.
and The Zapatistas are in ideological control of the indigenous people of Chiapas ( no reservations here) but they are working more towards cooperation these days.

I'd put more stock in political unrest these days than them.

[Kel]

well that's fair.
and The Zapatistas are in ideological control of the indigenous people of Chiapas ( no reservations here) but they are working more towards cooperation these days.

I'd put more stock in political unrest these days than them.


They might have learned from the PIRA of Ireland....:yay:

[bullets]

well building a wall is ridiculous and won't work . the only way to handle illegal immigration is to seize the business of the company that hires them to work.

[ANTOINE X]

instead of paying billions for many years for a simple wall, why don't they spend billions doing business a long the border? That going to create jobs and stop some illegal immigrant to go north.:whatever:

[StorminNorman]

yes, and you know I mean "wall" or fences, and while some houses DO have fences in their front yards, others don't and function perfectly too
please stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

Actually if you have a front yard that is not protected - anyone can enter your yard. Set up camp there. Make a fire. Sing songs. Whatever. Unless you have a responsive police force (border patrol) or, the lesser prefered, take the law into your own hands (minute-men) to drive them out. Of course a gate in front of your yard would of prevented this.

hmm, why do you keep focusing on "America" (just so you know America is a CONTINENT) I'm saying people in America ( oh irony) should be able to travel freely from one place to the next, once arriving at said place they would have to abide by said places rules IE if you need documentation to work and you DON'T have it, you CAN'T work.

get it?

I focus on America (America is also a country, as you damn well know) because thats what I care about.

That plan is incredibly niave though. Hiring illegal aliens is illegal in todays world. Yet its constructions largest source of labor in many cities. If you allow anyone to freely waltz into the border - you will have people that don't abide by immigration laws. Its going to happen. Its certainly going to happen with drug lords and the like being able to enter and leave the country at their whim.

If you enter America - the government should know who you are. There needs to be some screening. It should work both ways though - but I am not going to argue about what measures the Mexican government should take to protect their citizens.

it's not actually, because it wasn't criticized for that, it was because the people that DID critique it thought that it "targeted" English speakers.
and since I highly doubt that you watched 60 minutes 13 to 15 years ago you wouldn't know would you? you're just trying desperately to have an argument when you pretty much know you don't.
again, since you didn't even know what my point was, it's pretty sad you keep trying.

I did not know you were referring to a 60 minutes report from over a decade ago. I'll fess up. I thought you were referring to a more recent and similar story (about five years ago - I believe).

that's ridiculous.
if any can enter the country as a visitor but not stay legally or own property or any of the things immigrants CAN'T do, the laws are easily enforced and you CAN properly enforce them.
I mean DUH.
and you keep saying Immigration laws are the to "protect" US citizens?
haha! from what?:huh:

Those same laws are in place now. But your right - they are working perfectly.

Immigration Laws are meant to protect the country from being flooded with a bunch of people the government has no record on. Any sort of character could enter the country from that border. The Government needs some sort of record. The little things - you know - like identity, purpose, have you ever killed someone...

of course not, completely to the contrary, the open borders would work because Mexico WOULDN'T enforce US law anymore than the US would have to abide by Mexican law.
seriously WTF?:whatever:

What I was saying is that you would need the support of both countries to respect the laws of each for this to work. When Mexico constantly spits in the face of America immigration laws - I don't think this is possible.

And would Mexican law imprison Mexican citizens that commit horrible crimes in America and are thusly deported? Because there have been several incidents of a Mexican citizen commiting a horrible crime in America - being deported to Mexico - and then crossing the border and killing/raping/etc. again.

I'm sorry, but I have a very low regard for your opinion on this matter as I feel you're uninformed and have a very "parrot-like"stance on this iisue.

Its funny how both couldn't be farthest from the truth. You do this to everyone you debate with. You demean and insult with (I believe) the mentality if you can't win on facts - then you will just get them to quick so they don't have to put up with your ****. I won't lie, its not a horrible debate strategy.

actually it wasn't a "valid point" it was question and a dumb question.
sorry if you think you had a point, but you didn't and before you say in typical fashion "yes, yes I did" let me stop you right there and say that if you still can't understand half of my argument, even though anyone with a passing knowledge of states rights, history and the English language could. then what am I to do? there's plenty of valid points to be brought up against my idea, I have discussed it before with many people and some thoughtful things were brought to my attention.
it's just YOU haven't done so.

When you cloud your arguments with poorly phraised, worded or thought out metaphors or comparisons - yes I get confused. I hope you accept my apology.

actually, since you probably mean "thousands" you're of course "wrong" since the estimate is somewhere between 400,000 and 700,000 since 1992.
and like I said some of them don't even do it through Mexico.
but I like how you forgot to mention "make it harder to cross the border" and forgot "illegally" interesting Freudian slip there.

Yes, you got me, I wan't none of them foreigners to enter my country - despite the fact I have constantly advocated for making it easier to legally enter America.

Now if the number is just in the thousands - hell I will admit I am wrong. Just every number I have seen has reflected millions. I know there was an estimate of 8-10 million illegalls in this country in 2003 and now 18-20 million in 2007. But its quite quite possible for the government to be wrong on this.

like I said "obstacle course with killer cyborg alligators" that's an idea that's ahead of it's time.

Not quite practical - but if its works, it would be hard for me to oppose.

--- Have to run off to class, will reply to the rest later today.

[Malice]

This is getting interesting

[Mr Sparkle]

Actually if you have a front yard that is not protected - anyone can enter your yard. Set up camp there. Make a fire. Sing songs. Whatever. Unless you have a responsive police force (border patrol) or, the lesser prefered, take the law into your own hands (minute-men) to drive them out. Of course a gate in front of your yard would of prevented this.

hahahaha! tell Suburbia in the 50's



I focus on America (America is also a country, as you damn well know)

you're thinking of " the united states of America"
but yeah, close enough, whatever.



because thats what I care about.

That plan is incredibly niave though. Hiring illegal aliens is illegal in todays world. Yet its constructions largest source of labor in many cities. If you allow anyone to freely waltz into the border - you will have people that don't abide by immigration laws. Its going to happen. Its certainly going to happen with drug lords and the like being able to enter and leave the country at their whim.

If you enter America - the government should know who you are. There needs to be some screening. It should work both ways though - but I am not going to argue about what measures the Mexican government should take to protect their citizens.

meh, you keep like, forgetting or ignoring that I said immigration laws would still be enforced.
once again, this is kinda of going in circles with you either not being able to understand or willfully ignoring entire arguments.
I mean, I expect stuff like this with abstract concepts like religion, but...



I did not know you were referring to a 60 minutes report from over a decade ago. I'll fess up. I thought you were referring to a more recent and similar story (about five years ago - I believe).

nope, long ago, long , long ago.



Those same laws are in place now. But your right - they are working perfectly.

Immigration Laws are meant to protect the country from being flooded with a bunch of people the government has no record on. Any sort of character could enter the country from that border. The Government needs some sort of record. The little things - you know - like identity, purpose, have you ever killed someone...

actually, they aren't working perfectly.
of this was so Illegal immigration wouldn't be a problem, because then, no jobs could be given to illegals.
for instance if you properly ID someone in their own country and then share info with your neighbors background checks become moot because Dangerous individuals are properly targeted.
instead of focussing on walls and bull**** the system needs to be fixed so that the problem is dimminished for everyone's benefit.



What I was saying is that you would need the support of both countries to respect the laws of each for this to work. When Mexico constantly spits in the face of America immigration laws - I don't think this is possible.

"Mexico" :huh: how does "Mexico" as a country spit in the " face of America" ?
I mean, seriously.
how does this happen? I'm actually curious.

And would Mexican law imprison Mexican citizens that commit horrible crimes in America and are thusly deported? Because there have been several incidents of a Mexican citizen commiting a horrible crime in America - being deported to Mexico - and then crossing the border and killing/raping/etc. again.

well,if you extradited them instead of bussing them en-masse and them dumping them at the border to cross I imagine so.
but hey, are they deported AFTER they serve their sentence or not?
because If they are what basis would the Mexican government have for detaining them?



Its funny how both couldn't be farthest from the truth. You do this to everyone you debate with. You demean and insult with (I believe) the mentality if you can't win on facts - then you will just get them to quick so they don't have to put up with your ****. I won't lie, its not a horrible debate strategy.

so far you have shown otherwise.
just the simple " front yard" thing that was really cut and dry, I mean unfenced front yards are pretty common in your country, they were a staple of the 50's suburb all the way to the 90's and even still today and yet still you go on like this isn't true and it's your own country.
so, yeah....



When you cloud your arguments with poorly phraised, worded or thought out metaphors or comparisons - yes I get confused. I hope you accept my apology.

*phrased*
and it has been quite obvious to some that have bothered reading before reaching their conclusion based on knee jerk reactions.



Yes, you got me, I wan't none of them foreigners to enter my country - despite the fact I have constantly advocated for making it easier to legally enter America.

Now if the number is just in the thousands - hell I will admit I am wrong. Just every number I have seen has reflected millions. I know there was an estimate of 8-10 million illegalls in this country in 2003 and now 18-20 million in 2007. But its quite quite possible for the government to be wrong on this.

12 million is the estimate.
it's very high, very , very high.
what's the employment rate for illegal immigrants?
if it's high, then it's not about walls but about enforcing immigration laws IN the US.




Not quite practical - but if its works, it would be hard for me to oppose.

--- Have to run off to class, will reply to the rest later today.

wave of the future! the alligators WILL be produced in Mexico of course, to reduce costs.

[Malice]

I think the Mexico spitting in the face of America basically is pointed to the Mexican Police that actively FIRE on our border agents.
That is one example

[Mr Sparkle]

I think the Mexico spitting in the face of America basically is pointed to the Mexican Police that actively FIRE on our border agents.
That is one example

Mexican Police forces are NOT authorized to fire on foreign forces, specially around the border.
crimminals often dress in Police uniform to perpetrate crimes, and corrupt cops also happen to be a huge problem in Mexico.
it doesn't mean they are under orders to do so, as they answer to crime sindicates and not the government.
nor does it mean it's a government sanctioned action against the US.
if this was so there would have been an international incident long ago.

[Malice]

Mexican Police forces are NOT authorized to fire on foreign forces, specially around the border.
crimminals often dress in Police uniform to perpetrate crimes, and corrupt cops also happen to be a huge problem in Mexico.
it doesn't mean they are under orders to do so, as they answer to crime sindicates and not the government.
nor does it mean it's a government sanctioned action against the US.
if this was so there would have been an international incident long ago.

You are absolutely right. I would bet they are dressed-up criminals.

But you are incorrect, this happens VERY often.

The one think that is terrible, is that the Mexican Govt has done almost NOTHING on this issue.

[Mr Sparkle]

You are absolutely right. I would bet they are dressed-up criminals.

But you are incorrect, this happens VERY often.

The one think that is terrible, is that the Mexican Govt has done almost NOTHING on this issue.

I don't remember saying it didn't.
I meant the " Mexico being involved" thing.
though, it would seem that even coyotes would be terribly outmatched weapons-wise.

and the Mexican government has " tried" with no success to do something about organized crime.
again, a sort of " American Police Force" is needed.
( and I mean the continent")

[Malice]

I don't remember saying it didn't.
I meant the " Mexico being involved" thing.
though, it would seem that even coyotes would be terribly outmatched weapons-wise.

and the Mexican government has " tried" with no success to do something about organized crime.
again, a sort of " American Police Force" is needed.
( and I mean the continent")

I would somewhat agree.
It wont get resolved unless the following hapens.

The Border Patrol fires back - which of course would be twisted into a huge international incident.

or as you put it, a Police Force that has jurisdiction in both areas is brought about...which wont happen.

I find Mexico's activities in trying to resolve it severely lacking...

[Mr Sparkle]

I would somewhat agree.
It wont get resolved unless the following hapens.

The Border Patrol fires back - which of course would be twisted into a huge international incident.

or as you put it, a Police Force that has jurisdiction in both areas is brought about...which wont happen.

I find Mexico's activities in trying to resolve it severely lacking...

well, instead of firing back they shold aprehend the people involved if it turns out they are cops it would be a big embarrassment to the Mexican government forcing them to act more stringently against the corrup element.
a police force that has jurisdiction on both areas is a necessity given the troubles caused to BOTH parties involved, you're right it won't happen, but it should.
as for Mexico's activities, I agree, but I also think that the US engages in Misdirection and really does nothing to resolve the problem, because what good are " secure borders " when you already have 12 million people whose deportation would cause chaos in many, many familes and would economically harmful once again, to both parties involved.
real solutions are out there, but both countries are engaged in theater for their own selfish reasons.

[Malice]

well, instead of firing back they shold aprehend the people involved if it turns out they are cops it would be a big embarrassment to the Mexican government forcing them to act more stringently against the corrup element.
a police force that has jurisdiction on both areas is a necessity given the troubles caused to BOTH parties involved, you're right it won't happen, but it should.
as for Mexico's activities, I agree, but I also think that the US engages in Misdirection and really does nothing to resolve the problem, because what good are " secure borders " when you already have 12 million people whose deportation would cause chaos in many, many familes and would economically harmful once again, to both parties involved.
real solutions are out there, but both countries are engaged in theater for their own selfish reasons.

We cant apprehend them, they sit on the Mexican side of the border...

[Mr Sparkle]

We cant apprehend them, they sit on the Mexican side of the border...

hence a binational agreement on buffer zones for law enforcement is important.
cooperation is key.
plus I didn't know you were part of the border patrol.:huh:

[Malice]

hence a binational agreement on buffer zones for law enforcement is important.
cooperation is key.
plus I didn't know you were part of the border patrol.:huh:

Actually I personally know (and I dont mean, I know someone who knows someone who knows someone)...
I know someone directly on the border, and he gets shot at on almost a weekly basis.

[terry78]

YdpllAHo0ng

I'm on a Mexican Radio.

[Malice]

hence a binational agreement on buffer zones for law enforcement is important.
cooperation is key.
plus I didn't know you were part of the border patrol.:huh:

Sparkle, where are you from anyways?

[Mr Sparkle]

Sparkle, where are you from anyways?


Tijuana, Mexico.
I was born in Mexico city, but I've lived here for the past 24 years.

[Malice]

Tijuana, Mexico.
I was born in Mexico city, but I've lived here for the past 24 years.

Never been there. Have heard its pretty cool.

[Mr Sparkle]

Never been there. Have heard its pretty cool.

as long as you stay away from tourist traps.
there's some neat cafes and restaurants, and sometimes even a good play in the theater.
there's better places though, like Hermosillo.
save up and go there, or Guanajuato, it's almost European.

[Malice]

Back to Arguing!

[SuBe]

Malice:

I agree with you whole heartedly about your Immigration Plan. But, I believe like Hippie Hunter that you have to hit them where it hurts on get the Employers. If you reduce the incentive to come, you reduce the immigration. Then, like you said, offer some sort of temporary visa, allowing them to become citizens. Ofcourse the Government would have to start by being more effient in processing paperwork.

[LexCorp]

I plan to immigrate soon. I am hoping that it will not be too hard however I am aware that it is a long process.

[CorpusBlack]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?

Not too far from my opinion on the matter.

[Kel]

I plan to immigrate soon. I am hoping that it will not be too hard however I am aware that it is a long process.

One of my teacher's in my department is from France, I believe he is into his 10+ year of seeking citizenship and will be getting his citizenship soon. That's a quickie here in the US.

[Steve Rogers]

I quote McCain: "A nation without borders is not a nation at all." I am pretty liberal, but when it comes to borders, I say lock them. And don't give that "give me your tired...huddled massess" crap either. 300 million people. No more room at the inn. You wouldn't keep pouring milk into a full glass, would you?

[Kel]

I quote McCain: "A nation without borders is not a nation at all." I am pretty liberal, but when it comes to borders, I say lock them. And don't give that "give me your tired...huddled massess" crap either. 300 million people. No more room at the inn. You wouldn't keep pouring milk into a full glass, would you?


We are at a Zero Population Growth as far as births.....there is a "very" slight increase in recent years, but very little. What happens when this is the norm for decades is your population in reality shrinks, which means, fewer people having fewer children, and it continues. There comes a time where your labor pool is weakened to the extent that certain areas of that labor pool are handicapped in a way that leads to decline. Immigrants to our nation is what gives us the increase that we have, and they are almost immediately dropped into that labor pool in the weakened areas. Closing this totally, IMO, would be a major, major, major blow to our economy in the future.

[Steve Rogers]

We are at a Zero Population Growth as far as births.....there is a "very" slight increase in recent years, but very little. What happens when this is the norm for decades is your population in reality shrinks, which means, fewer people having fewer children, and it continues. There comes a time where your labor pool is weakened to the extent that certain areas of that labor pool are handicapped in a way that leads to decline. Immigrants to our nation is what gives us the increase that we have, and they are almost immediately dropped into that labor pool in the weakened areas. Closing this totally, IMO, would be a major, major, major blow to our economy in the future.I'm not saying close it totally as in no more immigrants ever again. But we need to make it so that illegal immigration is at least slowed. There are legal ways to get into this country.

Now, I thought our population was 200 million in 1990? We increased by 100 million in 17 years.

[Dr. Watson]

Also - there was never a Canadian politican that tried to make all of Canada get rid of English. There was a politician from a single Canadian territory
(Ontario I believe).

Weird I've never heard of that. If it's true then that person was just a total crank.

Actually, it is the province of Quebec, not a territory....there is a VERY strong separatist movement in Quebec, led by the Quebecois which wants a totally French culture in Quebec, which back in the 70's led to all street signs, business signs, etc being changed from English to French. Because of the large immigration population of Quebec that have become citizens and can vote, the (I believe) 2x that a vote came up for secession it was voted down by the people. The large recent immigrant population is cited as one of the biggest reason this has been voted down.

To be fair many Quebecois were opposed to seceeding from Canada (mainly because many businesses were ready to bolt if it actually came to pass). It may be of interest to many of those in this thread to know that Quebec is now recognized as a nation within Canada.

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but I also thought of interest might be what the so called professionals think of immigration. Most neo-liberal hardcore economists want open borders. In fact the Wall Street Journal editorial board has for years endorsed a US policy supporting the opening of borders. Basically since the US economy is already based on a free market economy, it follows that a free labour economy will benefit many. Now I don't know if I agree (mostly because I think improvements would only be felt by those who don't need them, while working class Americans and migrants could see detiorating economic conditions continue), but of interest none the less.

[LexCorp]

We are at a Zero Population Growth as far as births.....there is a "very" slight increase in recent years, but very little. What happens when this is the norm for decades is your population in reality shrinks, which means, fewer people having fewer children, and it continues. There comes a time where your labor pool is weakened to the extent that certain areas of that labor pool are handicapped in a way that leads to decline. Immigrants to our nation is what gives us the increase that we have, and they are almost immediately dropped into that labor pool in the weakened areas. Closing this totally, IMO, would be a major, major, major blow to our economy in the future.

I would agree as some immigrants who come over to work in the USA have a better mentality to work. They will push themselves harder to make a life for themselves.

I know I will be doing that too soon when I move to the USA for good. I will have to work harder and be better than the other guy just to fit in and be accepted even though I will immigrate in the legal way.

[Malice]

We are at a Zero Population Growth as far as births.....there is a "very" slight increase in recent years, but very little. What happens when this is the norm for decades is your population in reality shrinks, which means, fewer people having fewer children, and it continues. There comes a time where your labor pool is weakened to the extent that certain areas of that labor pool are handicapped in a way that leads to decline. Immigrants to our nation is what gives us the increase that we have, and they are almost immediately dropped into that labor pool in the weakened areas. Closing this totally, IMO, would be a major, major, major blow to our economy in the future.

Also, we are not at a Zero Population growth at this point anyways....

[Malice]

Also, we are not at a Zero Population growth at this point anyways....

We just need to buy more children.
:)

[Mr Sparkle]

I'm not saying close it totally as in no more immigrants ever again. But we need to make it so that illegal immigration is at least slowed. There are legal ways to get into this country.

Now, I thought our population was 200 million in 1990? We increased by 100 million in 17 years.

Illegal immigration won't be slowed by walls.
as long as there is a viable source of employment in the states people that can't go there legally will go there illegally.
population is a concern, that's why I've always favored economic development for third world countries, instead of triple walls, that are frankly ridiculous.
make it more difficult for people to find work in the states illegally, maybe THAT would work.

[Zen]

Born and raised in New york state. Caucasion Male

what im about to say is off the wall so you can stop reading now if you wish.


Spanish is not our national language, nor should it be a second language. if your hear:cwink:, learn english.

that my friends, is my only gripe...

as for the borders, im for relaxing our time to nationalize and get many more of them over here Legally. and i dont mean small amounts either... i want them over here in about as many numbers as we can theoretically handle... just learn english well enough to exist here without spanish subtitles.

their price for coming over is a little extra tax to help pay for an absolute gestapo like police force to find people here illegally.

thats how you stop the illegal immigration, make it easy to come over, and crack the heck down on finding the ones who are here

personally im not afraid of the "jobs" that would get lost to all those coming over to work on the cheap... get over it, if the only job you can get is that kind of a job, and others have figured out how to survive on that kind of a pay then too bad. Evolution is knockin on your door... we often equate luxuries with freedom, but its simply a case of mistaken identity... freedom is the ability to compete with everyone for the same peice of pie.

if you dont like it, work like your ancestors did when they came over here... we are a spoiled bunch.

go to school and get above the minimum wage competition.

the fact is they help our economy. Bring them over in droves... legally, everyone of my friends works with half the work ethic that many latino folks i've had the pleasure to work with, have had...

im not going to subsidize building a fence and getting all rediculous to insulate jobs for lazy people.

[Zen]

also Latino women are gorgeous and i want them.

[EdRyder]

personally im not afraid of the "jobs" that would get lost to all those coming over to work on the cheap... get over it, if the only job you can get is that kind of a job, and others have figured out how to survive on that kind of a pay then too bad. Evolution is knockin on your door... we often equate luxuries with freedom, but its simply a case of mistaken identity... freedom is the ability to compete with everyone for the same peice of pie.



See this is the kind of talk that worries me.You dont realize it but you're basically advocating the exploitation of a group of people.
Thats the issue.
Say you install drywall.By all means the contractor is going to hire the illegal-basically because he will do the job cheaper.Now the 'unfairness' to the person who is qualified to do that job at the proper pay scale aside.Dont you feel like this worker is being exploited?Not only is he not getting paid for the work he should be getting paid for-but since hes illegal,the contractor has no liability for his worker when a ton of bricks falls on him at the job site.

[Zen]

See this is the kind of talk that worries me.You dont realize it but you're basically advocating the exploitation of a group of people.
Thats the issue.
Say you install drywall.By all means the contractor is going to hire the illegal-basically because he will do the job cheaper.Now the 'unfairness' to the person who is qualified to do that job at the proper pay scale aside.Dont you feel like this worker is being exploited?Not only is he not getting paid for the work he should be getting paid for-but since hes illegal,the contractor has no liability for his worker when a ton of bricks falls on him at the job site.


you misunderstand man.

i don't want any illegal immigrants. i want to make it easier to bring them over legally, and slightly tax them to help fund a force to find all that are here illegally.

as for hanging drywall, its simple, and many people are overpaid to do it... bad example.

[Denny67]

I'll be curious to see how Arizona's plan pans out... :up:

As am I, if it is enforced.

This is how policy gets adopted nationwide. If it works in one state others will copy it. It is a big reason why letting states control many of their laws is a good idea, with the logical clause that they do not infringe upon constitutional rights.

[Mr Sparkle]

also Latino women are gorgeous and i want them.

they are.
but the US ladies have their mystique as well.
the ones with Irish ancestry......:o....so pretty.

[ScottyBBadd]

Starbucks put too much cream on my hot chocolate.

You can never have too much cream on hot chocolate.

[ScottyBBadd]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?

I am in agreement with you.

[Handsome Rob]

I say we severely fine businesses that knowingly hire illegal immigrants or that fail to use "due diligence" in determining the immigration status of a new hire.

When you dry up the well, people will have to go dig someplace for water. We didn't import the illegals . . . we won't have to deport them.

As for the legal immigrants, I say bring 'em on. :up:

[That'ssuper!]

I like the listing idea so here is my Australian perspective.

1. Finish the idea to build a large fence along the southern, Mexican border which is 30-45 ft into the ground, and about 40 feet tall which can keep out all illegal immigrants.

2. The federal government may need supply troops as they were doing before to train and help the border service protect the incoming traffic flow of illegals across the border. Make note not state troops because this is a failure on part of the federal government.

3. Do steps 1 and 2 for the Canadian border, this one is much more fragile. Terrorism will be looking for ways into both.

4. Allow police officers to be able to apprehend and hold illegal immigrants until the border service can take them away. Note, they should only be approached about their status only if there is a warranted evidence for doing so. Make sure there is no racial profiling.

5. The entire boarder patrol needs a massive inburst of training and recruitment. As well as much better funding for technlogy to capture and detain immigrants, while reducing the need for weapons to stop immigrants, but be prepared for such violence nonetheless with standard weapons.

6. For business, you Americans take away the lisence of a dental company for raping or molesting a patient, why not do the same for a company that hire illegals. Fines don't tend to work for this type of thing, only removing the people in power away from it is the way.

[MaskedManJRK]

they are.
but the US ladies have their mystique as well.
the ones with Irish ancestry......:o....so pretty.

Agreed on both counts. :up:

I think we can all agree on this: We loves women. 'Cept the other ladies here...well, some of them anyway.

But, gotta get back on topic (unfortunately):

I think Malice's idea is pretty solid, but it really just heals what is happening today, and not a whole lot for the long-term.

I live in Arizona, and I talk to a lot of people who either know people in Mexico, know people who are illegal, or even have duel citizenship. And from what I hear, Mexico is in bad shape as a government.

There is no middle class. The rich get richer and the poor become poorer. The police and government forces are largely corrupt, and the majority of Presidencies end with someone else forcing control.

Because of this, the genuine, hard-working people are desperate. They see America, land of the free, "give me your tired and your poor" and all of that, and they want to be able to live like that. Legally passing through the country is way too expensive to do on their end, so, in desperation, they have no choice.

So the only real way to stop the amount of illegal immigrants trying to come in is if the government of Mexico shapes up.

Honestly, I'm not sure how that would work. The only two options I can think of is occupation and trade agreements: the first would make the critism in Iraq look like child's play and the latter hasn't worked before (NAFTA).

[The Senator]

My only strong view on this is that those who are already here with children should receive amnesty, especially those whose children were born in the United States. Our constitution says that anyone born in the United States is a legal citizen, and I do not feel we should split up entire families or deport families whose children have a chance at having so much more than their parents every dreamed was possible. To me, that would go against everything this country has historically stood for.

As for everyone else... do as you wish. Personally, I'm an advocate of a sophisticated guest worker program which would allow temporary workers to work towards citizenship. I also think employers should be fined or put out of business for hiring undocumented workers. As for our borders, we need more border patrol officers, not vigilantes or national guardsmen, and a strong, virtual security fence-- not a ridiculously expensive and ridiculously stupid fence which doesn't even spread across the whole border anyway. Not only that, but a good chunk of the illegals who come here cross over through underground drainage pipes, so to me, a fence just seems like an impractical solution designed to make the American people think that something is actually being done about the problem.

[SuBe]

From Neal Boortz Blog:


MoveOn.org has teamed up with John Edwards and other moonbat activist groups to create a public awareness campaign. This $20 million campaign's sole purpose is to promote the perceived link between the war in Iraq and the weakening U.S. economy.
It is being called the Iraq Campaign 2008 (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200802/NAT20080226a.html), and it will include advertising, anti-war events, and lobbying efforts to end the war. There will also be a $750,000 "Bush Legacy Bus" that will tour the country. This bus will have an exhibition of Bush's "greatest hits of the failure of the Bush administration" including the war, Hurricane Katrina, the economy, and healthcare. The bus will stop in front of offices of legislators who supported Bush's policies.
And as for the message ... Elizabeth Edwards says that if the economy is your number one issue when you go to vote, the war should be number one too because there is a connection between the two.
Hold on a minute here. What about illegal immigration? What about the Mexican invasion? How much money are we spending dealing with the millions of illegals that people like MoveOn.org and the Edwards family have welcomed into this country with open arms?
The fact is illegal aliens cost our economy more every year than does the Iraq war. Try $338 billion a year! Here is a series of links to stories that will detail the cost.

$11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77 (http://tinyurl.com/zob77)
$1.9 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html (http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html)
$2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/200/fiscalexec.html (http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html)
$12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)
$17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)
$3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)
30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)
$90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare and Social Services by the American taxpayers.
http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html (http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html)
(Link not active ... was not able to verify this information)
$200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)
The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two-and-a-half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html)
During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border. Homeland Security Report. http://tinyurl.com/t9sht (http://tinyurl.com/t9sht)
The National Policy Institute, estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period. http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf (http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf)
In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm (http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm)
'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States. http://www.drdsk.com/articles.html#Illegals (http://www.drdsk.com/articles.html#Illegals)Total cost is a whopping... $338 BILLION A YEAR!!!

[Genesis 1.0]

Hey Supes, how much you wanna bet you won't see those stats in the media?

[Mr Sparkle]

using "moonbat" in the context of liberal is like using " nazi" in the context of conservative.
it just makes people NOT care about what you have to say.

[Mr Sparkle]

also, studies from the "center for immigration studies" aren't trustworthy.
sorry.
founded as an offshoot of FAIR, whose own founder raised questions about the educability of Hispanics.

"1. What are the differences in educability between Hispanics (with their 50% dropout rate) and Asiatics (with their excellent school records and long tradition of scholarship)?"

DUUUUH me no understand, me can only speak two languages and operate computers....duhhh me non-educable me not have (sic) educability.

[terry78]

using "moonbat" in the context of liberal is like using " nazi" in the context of conservative.
it just makes people NOT care about what you have to say.

Quiet, you carpetbagging muckraker. :cmad:

[Genesis 1.0]

using "moonbat" in the context of liberal is like using " nazi" in the context of conservative.
it just makes people NOT care about what you have to say.

In today's media you have to sift past the rhetoric and find whatever's worth salvaging. There are facts there, statistics that shouldn't be pushed to the side just because it's speaker has a tendency to be himself.

[The Senator]

also, studies from the "center for immigration studies" aren't trustworthy.
sorry.
founded as an offshoot of FAIR, whose own founder raised questions about the educability of Hispanics.

"1. What are the differences in educability between Hispanics (with their 50% dropout rate) and Asiatics (with their excellent school records and long tradition of scholarship)?"

DUUUUH me no understand, me can only speak two languages and operate computers....duhhh me non-educable me not have (sic) educability.

Who taught you how to use a computer, you job-stealing Mexi-can't??? :cmad:

[Mr Sparkle]

In today's media you have to sift past the rhetoric and find whatever's worth salvaging. There are facts there, statistics that shouldn't be pushed to the side just because it's speaker has a tendency to be himself.

ok, but let me give you a for instance.

" $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens."

:huh::whatever: LOL how?

[Genesis 1.0]

ok, but let me give you a for instance.

" $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens."

:huh::whatever: LOL how?

A perfect example of how rhetoric can sometimes obscure the facts it's supposed to be presenting. Instead of shading it Red, as it were, it's eclipsed it.

[Mr Sparkle]

Who taught you how to use a computer, you job-stealing Mexi-can't??? :cmad:

I stole one from a US citizen.
and by steal I mean buy.
and by US citizen I mean " circuit city ":o

[Mr Sparkle]

oh, and SUpermanBeyond.
Lou Dobbs is not exactly a bastion of level headedness when it comes to this issue.

[Marx]

I figured that it would be a good idea to create a thread on this subject since so many other threads have been hijacked by the conversation.

Let's ALL have a discussion on ALL things immigration!

Whether it's legal immigration...illegal immigration...undocumented workers...the "Guest Worker" Program...the effects that illegal immigration has on the economy...truths...lies...and misconceptions. Can the system be fixed? Or is it too far gone?

Let's discuss this very heated topic!

[BlackLantern]

I hate the term "Hot Button" I believe it should be deported

[Marx]

I hate the term "Hot Button" I believe it should be deported

I changed it BL, just for you! :oldrazz:

[Malice]

bump

[Marx]

bump

I see how it is Malice...we didn't like MY thread. Has to be YOUR thread. I get it! :funny::cwink:

[Malice]

:) Funny, since this was one of the threads that started the Politics forum...when we decided to create a Politics location

[BlackLantern]

So we can't deport Malice? darn

[Marx]

:) Funny, since this was one of the threads that started the Politics forum...when we decided to create a Politics location

I just had to pick on ya a little bit! :oldrazz:

[Malice]

i know :)

[Marx]

SANTA ANA, Calif. (KABC) -- A new program puts the illegal immigration issue into the hands of illegal immigrants.

People living in the country illegally can go to the federal offices in Santa Ana starting Tuesday and literally turn themselves in. Officials will send them back to their country of origin, no questions asked, and they will even buy the plane ticket.

It's all part of a nationwide test program "Operation Scheduled Departure" to deport illegals quickly and safely. Santa Ana is one of five cities in the county participating in the program.




Thoughts?




New program encourages voluntary deportation
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=6307550

Illegal immigrants invited to turn themselves in
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080806/ap_on_re_us/immigration_self_deportation

[souvlaki]

Thoughts?




New program encourages voluntary deportation
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=6307550

Illegal immigrants invited to turn themselves in
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080806/ap_on_re_us/immigration_self_deportation

Doesn't shock me that Santa Ana would start a program like this at all... the whole city is pretty much made up of immigrants, many of them illegal. Doubt this idea will work though.

[Darthphere]

No questions asked? ****, I wanted to go to India this summer but the plane ticket was just too much. I guess I can go over there and be like "Yes I am from India and came here illegally!" Problem solved.