Discussion: Illegal Immigration and Other Citizenship Issues

[ShadowBoxing]

Weigh in with your opinion

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20060518052609990015&ncid=NWS00010000000001



Bush Backs English as 'Common and Unifying'
Senate Immigration Bill Includes Language Amendments

WASHINGTON (May 19) - President George W. Bush supports two Senate proposals that English is the U.S. language and the "common and unifying language," White House spokesman Tony Snow said Friday.

"What the president has said all along is that he wants to make sure that people who become American citizens have a command of the English language," Snow said. "It's as simple as that."

The Senate on Thursday first voted 63-34 to make English the national language of the United States after lawmakers who led the effort said it would promote national unity.

But critics argued the move would prevent limited English speakers from getting language assistance required by an executive order signed by former President Bill Clinton. So the Senate then voted 58-39 on saying that English is the U.S.'s "common and unifying language."

Supporters agreed that both measures in the immigration bill currently under debate are largely symbolic. The bill has to be reconciled with a version passed by the House of Representatives before Bush signs it into law, probably by the end of the year.

"We are trying to make an assimilation statement," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, one of two dozen senators who voted Thursday for both proposals.

Sen. Jim Inhofe disputed charges that making English the national language was racist or aimed at Spanish speakers. Eleven Democrats joined Republicans in voting for his measure.

The provision makes exceptions for any language assistance already guaranteed by law, such as bilingual ballots required under the Voting Rights Act or court interpreters. It also requires immigrants seeking citizenship to demonstrate a "sufficient understanding of the English language for usage in every day life."

The Homeland Security Department is in the midst of redesigning the citizenship test and some groups have been concerned about efforts to make the test more difficult.

Sen. Ken Salazar offered the alternative. The only Republican to vote solely for Salazar's "common and unifying" language option was Sen. Pete Domenici of New Mexico, whose home state's constitution prohibits discrimination on basis of inability to speak, read or write English or Spanish.

Both provisions will be included in an immigration bill the Senate is expected to pass and send to conference with the House, where differences will be resolved.

Bush, who often peppers his speeches with Spanish words and phrases, had little to say about the Senate votes while visiting the Arizona-Mexico border. "The Senate needs to get the bill out," the president said.

Bush toured an unfortified section of the border in the Arizona desert Thursday, where he endorsed using fences and other barriers to cut down on illegal crossings. The Senate on Wednesday voted to put 370 miles of fences on the border.

Bush's border visit was part of his efforts to win over conservatives balking at his support for a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants and a new guest worker program.

Bush asked Congress for $1.9 billion Thursday to pay for 1,000 Border Patrol agents and the temporary deployment of up to 6,000 National Guard troops to states along the Mexican border.

Not a fan myself.

[giggs11uk]

I am you have to know some English to try and become a citizen and if you have lived in America for the 8 years it takes to become a citizen and don't know English I don't think you can rightfully call yourself a citizen

[giggs11uk]

I was also born in England and became an American Citizen so i am not ignorant to foreigners struggles

[Liquid Snake]

wait, so illegals are being allowed to stay?

[jaguarr]

If they really think that making English the OFFICIAL language of the United States will serve as a unifying thing, they're delusional. I find it ironic that Bush is pushing for this when he can barely speak English himself, actually. I love how when the approval ratings are low or there's things going on that Bush doesn't want people to pay attention to (like the things happening in Iraq) that he and his cronies drudge up non-issues like gay marriage and immigration for people to fixate on instead.

jag

[Man-Thing]

I think english should be the official language, and should be a requirement for obtaining citizenship. If I have pass out from a stroke or something, then the potential good samaritain should be able to call an ambulance in English.

[Man-Thing]

I am you have to know some English to try and become a citizen and if you have lived in America for the 8 years it takes to become a citizen and don't know English I don't think you can rightfully call yourself a citizen

I wish you had learned english before you became a citizen.:D

[Liquid Snake]

wait, so illegals are being allowed to stay?:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Mr Sparkle]

wait, so illegals are being allowed to stay?

Illegals are not being "allowed" anything.
the idea of deporting all of them was a pipe dream for some, and a distraction for all, it was NEVER going to happen, they are going to put some triple walls on some sections of the border (rolleyes infity) in the end, things will stay the same.

[Addendum]

Aren't there more important things than what language the country decides to make official?

[SickBoy]

If they really think that making English the OFFICIAL language of the United States will serve as a unifying thing, they're delusional. I find it ironic that Bush is pushing for this when he can barely speak English himself, actually. I love how when the approval ratings are low or there's things going on that Bush doesn't want people to pay attention to (like the things happening in Iraq) that he and his cronies drudge up non-issues like gay marriage and immigration for people to fixate on instead.

jag

I agree.

[SickBoy]

Also, what exactly are the requirements to becoming a citizen? WHat are the tests? How does a foreigner become a citizen?

[InsaneMembrane]

Also, what exactly are the requirements to becoming a citizen? WHat are the tests? How does a foreigner become a citizen?

Yeah, I wondering that too?

In Canada you must speak English or French if you want to become a citizen.

[SickBoy]

I think it is important to learn the language of the country in which you wish to live. And i think if immigrants actually submerse themselves in our culture, they are bound to pick stuff up. I hear it all the time: if you are in a foreign country, especially for a long period of time, you naturally pick up the language. I can see how this wouldn't always happen (i.e. mexican immigrants settling into heavily-populated mexican areas where they could get by without learning much English), but overall i don't think it would be too hard for immigrants to learn English if given enough time and with special programs to help them learn it.

If i wanted to live in a foreign country (which i have thought about), i would WANT to learn the language. Overall it would make things a lot easier for me. But i would want to be allowed time to learn it, and not have to live up to impossible standards to become a legal citizen. What are Americas standards and requirements for becoming a legal citizen? I am very curious. I will look it up when i have more time.

However, the difficulty of learning a new language depends in part on the individuals particular abilities, whether they already speak multiple languages, what language they are coming from, etc.

Whether this would be truly "unifying"... i dont know.

[Addendum]

Yes, the citizens of the States will become unified when English is the official language :rolleyes:

[Corinthian™]

I think it is important to learn the language of the country in which you wish to live. And i think if immigrants actually submerse themselves in our culture, they are bound to pick stuff up. I hear it all the time: if you are in a foreign country, especially for a long period of time, you naturally pick up the language. I can see how this wouldn't always happen (i.e. mexican immigrants settling into heavily-populated mexican areas where they could get by without learning much English), but overall i don't think it would be too hard for immigrants to learn English if given enough time and with special programs to help them learn it.

If i wanted to live in a foreign country (which i have thought about), i would WANT to learn the language. Overall it would make things a lot easier for me. But i would want to be allowed time to learn it, and not have to live up to impossible standards to become a legal citizen. What are Americas standards and requirements for becoming a legal citizen? I am very curious. I will look it up when i have more time.

However, the difficulty of learning a new language depends in part on the individuals particular abilities, whether they already speak multiple languages, what language they are coming from, etc.

Whether this would be truly "unifying"... i dont know.
what culture:confused:

[SickBoy]

Yes, the citizens of the States will become unified when English is the official language :rolleyes:

Ha. Yeah, the unification thing is ridiculous. I think people should eventually learn enough of the language to get by in the country in which they living, but i don't think we need to call English the "official language" of america and force everyone to become fluent. I support cultural diversity.

I don't want America to turn into a super-isolated, close-minded, egotistic country. Oh, wait...:(

[StorminNorman]

Bout time IMO :up:

[Corinthian™]

in my opinion this is one step closer to a USA where even the legal immigrants are treated as second class citizens because they speak "funny".. "Oh, Jesus of Nazareth! Go learn some english, you ****ing Brit:mad:"

[SickBoy]

what culture:confused:

you know, hang out around mostly english speakers in order to pick up the language. I guess they wouldn't really have to submerse themselves in white culture to do that... but at least try to associate with english speakers enough to pick up some english. Spending all your time in a community dominated by your own nationality makes it easier to get by without learning the country's language.

[kane9321]

hell this was a no-brainer...u should learn-speak english if u live in america

[Corinthian™]

you know, hang out around mostly english speakers in order to pick up the language. I guess they wouldn't really have to submerse themselves in white culture to do that... but at least try to associate with english speakers enough to pick up some english. Spending all your time in a community dominated by your own nationality makes it easier to get by without learning the country's language.
I meant that the culture of America is about having different languages, different nationalities and different people with only one thing in common. They all are American.

Making USA a nation of one language is actually destroying what the USA stands for. The entire world, but even better

[Corinthian™]

Also in my opinion, they are doing this because they don't want to have spanish as the top languge to be speak

[SickBoy]

in my opinion this is one step closer to a USA where even the legal immigrants are treated as second class citizens because they speak "funny".. "Oh, Jesus of Nazareth! Go learn some english, you ****ing Brit:mad:"

Good point. a lot of times when Americans talk to people who don't speak English fluently, they think of them as being stupid. I don't know if there is any way around this. Most immigrants wouldn't be able to learn the language completely fluently unless they are very young and coming over with their parents and grow up around english speakers.

People need to be sympathetic to those who do not know the language 100% and try to communicate as best they can. It doesn't hurt for Americans to pick up a little spanish too.

[Liquid Snake]

Illegals are not being "allowed" anything.
the idea of deporting all of them was a pipe dream for some, and a distraction for all, it was NEVER going to happen, they are going to put some triple walls on some sections of the border (rolleyes infity) in the end, things will stay the same.I thought bush was giving them amnesty?

[Corinthian™]

Good point. a lot of times when Americans talk to people who don't speak English fluently, they think of them as being stupid. I don't know if there is any way around this. Most immigrants wouldn't be able to learn the language completely fluently unless they are very young and coming over with their parents and grow up around english speakers.

People need to be sympathetic to those who do not know the language 100% and try to communicate as best they can. It doesn't hurt for Americans to pick up a little spanish too.
spanish is awesome:O:up:

I'm mexican and I know english. I can't speak it like a true American but I try. I'm in college for Cthulhu's sake

[SickBoy]

I meant that the culture of America is about having different languages, different nationalities and different people with only one thing in common. They all are American.

Making USA a nation of one language is actually destroying what the USA stands for. The entire world, but even better

I see your point. I do see America as a palce where people from all countries can come to enjoy it's freedoms. America is defined by it's democratic, free-enterprise government. It's a palce that was founded by outcasts and immigrants themselves. So yeah, it should remain culurally diverse. I don't think we should FORCE anyone to learn the language.

[SickBoy]

I don't love everything about america, not at all, but i think it has its good qualities. And i don't want it to become a country where everyone speaks the same language and has to be a certain way.

[Holly Goodhead]

I think everyone should have to dye their skin white also.

[Corinthian™]

I think everyone should have to dye their skin white also.
stfu *****.

you should dye your.. your... your eyes white:mad:

[souloffire]

I love how when the approval ratings are low or there's things going on that Bush doesn't want people to pay attention to (like the things happening in Iraq) that he and his cronies drudge up non-issues like gay marriage and immigration for people to fixate on instead.

jagImmigration's an non-issue? Where the hell have you been?

[jaguarr]

Immigration's an non-issue? Where the hell have you been?

I've been paying attention. How about you? :)

jag

[souloffire]

Actually if you think immigration's an non-issue you haven't been paying attention.

[jaguarr]

Actually if you think immigration's an non-issue you haven't been paying attention.

Oh, really? Well, please, by all means, educate me then. Why is immigration such a big issue? :)

jag

[souloffire]

Don't be an ass. Immigration is a major issue in the U.S. and has been for sometime now, but you already know this since you've been "paying attention".

[jaguarr]

Don't be an ass. Immigration is a major issue in the U.S. and has been for sometime now, but you already know this since you've been "paying attention".

I'm not being an ass. I would really love to hear why you think it's such a major issue. :)

jag

[NOFX]

I thought bush was giving them amnesty?
Bush has always been against amnesty. He's making that guest worker program which pretty much means Undocumented immigrants can work for less than Minimum wage(1-6 bucks an hour) Its a good business move for bush but is it humane? thats another topic.

[SickBoy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by souloffire
Don't be an ass. Immigration is a major issue in the U.S. and has been for sometime now, but you already know this since you've been "paying attention".


I'm not being an ass. I would really love to hear why you think it's such a major issue. :)

jag

Yes, let us know why you think it's such a huge issue. Don't say things you aren't willing to back up. And don't assume it's a huge issue just because that's what a lot of people are talking about right now.

[SickBoy]

Huge issue, as i understand it, means something that needs to be dealt with as soon as possible because if it isn't, then we are all in deep *****. By that definition, is immigration issue a huge issue? I'm not trying to sound like a jerk Souloffire, I just want you to back up what you said.

[souloffire]

Yes, let us know why you think it's such a huge issue. Don't say things you aren't willing to back up. And don't assume it's a huge issue just because that's what a lot of people are talking about right now.Geez you don't responed too a post in 5 seconds and you're accused of not backing up what you say. Well considering that as you said " that's what a lot of people are talking about right now " plus the nation wide protests, the battles in the senate over immigration bills and the National Guard being sent to the border makes it a little more than a "non-issue" don't ya think?

[Admiral_N8]

I love how when the approval ratings are low or there's things going on that Bush doesn't want people to pay attention to (like the things happening in Iraq) that he and his cronies drudge up non-issues like gay marriage and immigration for people to fixate on instead.

jag

Wow....that has to be the most silly thing I have seen on here.

Immigration is a "non-issue" according to you???

:rolleyes:

[jaguarr]

Immagration is only a major issue because Papa Bush and his cronies TOLD you people it was a major issue. Let that sink in a little bit and then consider whether it's truly a major issue for this country or if it's just being made to seem that way. :)

jag

[Admiral_N8]

Immagration is only a major issue because Papa Bush and his cronies TOLD you people it was a major issue. Let that sink in a little bit and then consider whether it's truly a major issue for this country or if it's just being made to seem that way. :)

jag

Wow, that you actually think that 12 million illegal undocumented immigrants and an open border with drugs crossing it every day is a "non-issue" is astounding.

[Corinthian™]

Wow, that you actually think that 12 million illegal undocumented immigrants and an open border with drugs crossing it every day is a "non-issue" is astounding.
By the way, just reffering to your open border comment.

You know what it takes to cross that open border either legally or illegally?

[souloffire]

Immagration is only a major issue because Papa Bush and his cronies TOLD you people it was a major issue. Let that sink in a little bit and then consider whether it's truly a major issue for this country or if it's just being made to seem that way. :)

jag
Yeah you're right, Bush made all those people go out and protest. By the way is it a "non-issue" or "major"? You seem a little confused.

[Admiral_N8]

By the way, just reffering to your open border comment.

You know what it takes to cross that open border either legally or illegally?

Legally? For me I know yes, just need a car.

[Admiral_N8]

Yeah you're right, Bush made all those people go out and protest. By the way is it a "non-issue" or "major"? You seem a little confused.

Exactly, calling it a "non-issue" is beyond absurd....tell the millions that marched all across the country and in Mexico or those hundreds of thousands that participated in the no work day on May 1st that its a "non-issue".

:rolleyes:

[Corinthian™]

Legally? For me I know yes, just need a car.
and before that? All the papers? All the waiting?

Wait... are you american?

[jaguarr]

So, other than your exalted leader saying immigration is such a major issue all of a sudden, what are the real, viable reasons for it to suddenly become so important? You people who seem to think it's really a major issue haven't offered any real reasons. Keep in mind, there is nothing new about illegal immigration under the sun. It's been going on for decades, particularly on the Mexican border and there's A LOT of work that gets done in this country by illegal aliens that most Americans don't want to do. So why is it so important to you and to the government all of a sudden?

And souloffire, go learn WHY immigrants were protesting here in the States.

jag

[Admiral_N8]

and before that? All the papers? All the waiting?

Wait... are you american?

Umm yes I am American, it takes nothing for me to cross the border....a car or a plane ticket.

[Admiral_N8]

So, other than your exalted leader saying immigration is such a major issue all of a sudden, what are the real, viable reasons for it to suddenly become so important? You people who seem to think it's really a major issue haven't offered any real reasons. Keep in mind, there is nothing new about illegal immigration under the sun. It's been going on for decades, particularly on the Mexican border and there's A LOT of work that gets done in this country by illegal aliens that most Americans don't want to do. So why is it so important to you and to the government all of a sudden?

And souloffire, go learn WHY immigrants were protesting here in the States.

jag

They are protesting because they want IMMIGRATION reform...yet you seem to think its a "non-issue"?? Do you REALLY still think its a non-issue?

[NOFX]

Relax people

[Corinthian™]

Umm yes I am American, it takes nothing for me to cross the border....a car or a plane ticket.
uhm... you are American. You don't know what it REALLY took me to get my Student Visa

[Admiral_N8]

uhm... you are American. You don't know what it REALLY took me to get my Student Visa

I never said I did.

:confused:

[Darthphere]

Hey, we'll pay you slave wages, but you need to know english, sounds fair to me.

[souloffire]

So, other than your exalted leader saying immigration is such a major issue all of a sudden, what are the real, viable reasons for it to suddenly become so important? You people who seem to think it's really a major issue haven't offered any real reasons. Keep in mind, there is nothing new about illegal immigration under the sun. It's been going on for decades, particularly on the Mexican border and there's A LOT of work that gets done in this country by illegal aliens that most Americans don't want to do. So why is it so important to you and to the government all of a sudden?

And souloffire, go learn WHY immigrants were protesting here in the States.

jagSo now you're acknowledging the protests, guess it's not quite the "non-issue" you make it out to be. I know why the immigrants were protesting that's not what were're debating here. I never gave you my position on the issue. This is about you calling it a non-issue when it is clearly more than that.

[Admiral_N8]

Jag just admit that calling it a "non-issue" like you did is really stupid.

[Darthphere]

Jag just admit that calling it a "non-issue" like you did is really stupid.


A "non-issue" may be the wrong word but hes not completely wrong.

[SickBoy]

Did Jag even call it a "non-issue"? I thought he just said it wasn't a major issue.

It's definitely an issue, but it's not a huge issue that we have to suddenly solve or else America is doomed. We have a lot of important issues that shouldn't be put on the back-burner just because of the immigration issue.

[Admiral_N8]

Did Jag even call it a "non-issue"? I thought he just said it wasn't a major issue.

It's definitely an issue, but it's not a huge issue that we have to suddenly solve or else America is doomed. We have a lot of important issues that shouldn't be put on the back-burner just because of the immigration issue.

I love how when the approval ratings are low or there's things going on that Bush doesn't want people to pay attention to (like the things happening in Iraq) that he and his cronies drudge up non-issues like gay marriage and immigration for people to fixate on instead.

jag

:up:

[SickBoy]

America seems to go through phases. Like all of a sudden one particular issue will dominate the media, even when other issues need to be dealt with more.

I almost never watch most of the major news networks. They never seem to show all the important things that are going on in the country and the world. Just whatever's popular at the moment.

[Darthphere]

Admiral, even though you may believe immigration is a big problem, would you agree there are far more pressing issues to attend to, ones that can realistically be accomplished?

[Admiral_N8]

Admiral, even though you may believe immigration is a big problem, would you agree there are far more pressing issues to attend to, ones that can realistically be accomplished?

Of course, but to say there are other issues so we shouldnt try and stop this huge problem is just very silly.

[SickBoy]

Of course, but to say there are other issues so we shouldnt try and stop this huge problem is just very silly.

We shoudl try to deal with as much as we can, but the most important issues should definitely take precedence.

[souloffire]

Admiral, even though you may believe immigration is a big problem, would you agree there are far more pressing issues to attend to, ones that can realistically be accomplished?
I wont speak for Admiral but of course there are more pressing issues, but that doesn't mean you should ignore it.

[Darthphere]

Of course, but to say there are other issues so we shouldnt try and stop this huge problem is just very silly.


Nobody is saying that but I think the current war, rising gas prices, and this new NSA surveillance controversy should be getting more attention from our legislators than debating for two days whether or not English should be made the offcial language.

[Admiral_N8]

We shoudl try to deal with as much as we can, but the most important issues should definitely take precedence.

Of course, but we can do many things at once, and with illegal immigration and drugs crossing the border being what it is it should be dealt with since we can.

[Admiral_N8]

Nobody is saying that but I think the current war, rising gas prices, and this new NSA surveillance controversy should be getting more attention from our legislators than debating for two days whether or not English should be made the offcial language.

I wasnt talking about the English language, I am talking about illegal immigration.

I am very surprised at how some of you think we should just ignore it and do nothing, and that it is a "non-issue".

[Darthphere]

I wasnt talking about the English language, I am talking about illegal immigration.

I am very surprised at how some of you think we should just ignore it and do nothing, and that it is a "non-issue".


Ive had C-Span on for 2 days, thats what theyve been debating the last 2 days.

[Admiral_N8]

Ive had C-Span on for 2 days, thats what theyve been debating the last 2 days.

Yes I know that. and?

[Darthphere]

Yes I know that. and?


How will that stop illegal immigration?:confused:

[SickBoy]

Nobody is saying that but I think the current war, rising gas prices, and this new NSA surveillance controversy should be getting more attention from our legislators than debating for two days whether or not English should be made the offcial language.

exactly :up:

[Admiral_N8]

How will that stop illegal immigration?:confused:

Umm it wont...they arent saying it will.


:confused:

[Darthphere]

Umm it wont...they arent saying it will.


:confused:


Then why debate something that trivial for two days, when they could actually get something done. You think a wall will do it? pass a law saying to build a wall. You think a guest worker program will do it? Then pass the damn law. Spending two days debating whether english should be mae an offical language is a disservice to the american people and especially someone like you who wnats them to do something to stop this problem.

[jaguarr]

N8 and souloffire, I've not insulted you once in this thread and yet the two of you have made it pretty clear that you're more interested in having a go at me on a personal level than you are in actually discussing the issues raised. Support your points rather than attacking me, please. As Darth already pointed out, it's a non-issue in comparison with so many other truly pressing issues that really do need attention from our government and by our society. However, if you two are more interested in arguing minute semantics and hurling insults then I'll leave the two of you to do so. Enjoy your non-issues. ;)

jag

[Admiral_N8]

Then why debate something that trivial for two days, when they could actually get something done. You think a wall will do it? pass a law saying to build a wall. You think a guest worker program will do it? Then pass the damn law. Spending two days debating whether english should be mae an offical language is a disservice to the american people and especially someone like you who wnats them to do something to stop this problem.

I dont know why they are debating it for two days, I never said I did. You just brought that up randomly.

[Admiral_N8]

N8 and souloffire, I've not insulted you once in this thread and yet the two of you have made it pretty clear that you're more interested in having a go at me on a personal level than you are in actually discussing the issues raised. Support your points rather than attacking me, please. As Darth already pointed out, it's a non-issue in comparison with so many other truly pressing issues that really do need attention from our government and by our society. However, if you two are more interested in arguing minute semantics and hurling insults then I'll leave the two of you to do so. Enjoy your non-issues. ;)

jag

I didnt attack you on a personal issue, I just said saying immigration being a "non-issue" [and thats ALL you said, you didnt say "in relation to other things"] is stupid.

I never said you were stupid, cuz i am sure you are not. But saying something that is obviously so big for the entire Latino population and people in the south is a "non-issue" is silly. I am sure you agree?

You didnt support your point either, you just said it was a non-issue, how is it a non-issue? And why do you put "jag" under your posts...isnt that what a sig is for?

[SickBoy]

N8 and souloffire, I've not insulted you once in this thread and yet the two of you have made it pretty clear that you're more interested in having a go at me on a personal level than you are in actually discussing the issues raised. Support your points rather than attacking me, please. As Darth already pointed out, it's a non-issue in comparison with so many other truly pressing issues that really do need attention from our government and by our society. However, if you two are more interested in arguing minute semantics and hurling insults then I'll leave the two of you to do so. Enjoy your non-issues. ;)

jag

illegal immigraton is a small issue when compared to other issues, but I still wouldn't call it a non-issue. The language thing is a non-issue though. And yes,there definitely are more pressing issues that NEED to be dealt with!

[souloffire]

N8 and souloffire, I've not insulted you once in this thread and yet the two of you have made it pretty clear that you're more interested in having a go at me on a personal level than you are in actually discussing the issues raised. Support your points rather than attacking me, please. As Darth already pointed out, it's a non-issue in comparison with so many other truly pressing issues that really do need attention from our government and by our society. However, if you two are more interested in arguing minute semantics and hurling insults then I'll leave the two of you to do so. Enjoy your non-issues. ;)

jagjag, go back and read my posts because I clearly explained why immigration is not a non-issue. And as for insults I'm sure you had alot worse than this.

[Mr Sparkle]

jag, go back and read my posts because I clearly explained why immigration is not a non-issue. And as for insults I'm sure you had alot worse than this.

actually, you cited the following

people thinking it is and issue, protests,and the national guard.


that doesn't tell anyone WHY it's an issue. merely how they are MAKING it an issue.

the people protested because a law was propossed that would criminalize helping illegals while in the US, think about that. also it gave law enforcement an excuse to single out hispanics, who would from then on have to carry ID at all times, and they best not look "Mexican" out in public.
this law was just recently propossed, it hasn't been in the wings for long, why do you think that Bush is jumping on this now? when Chris Simcox and his border patrol idiots have been around since before 2001?
if you study up on the economic impact it seems that economists are split over the effects, some say it's positive some it's negative.

frankly IT IS A NON-ISSUE.

because americans aren't losing jobs to illegals, sorry, but I have yet to see the guy that wants to work 12 hours picking fruit for less than minimum wage, and last time I checked, a lot of companies are outsourcing to India and China, you tell me how a triple wall on 20% of your borders is going to help that.
back when in Canada they wanted to make french the "Official Language" in some parts, I saw story upon story on the news exalting the openess that the US had to languages, and how "proud" they where of it.

you are being brainwashed into nationalism, and it's a sad thing to see.
yeah, before you start, I know that Mexico's government is corrupt and shiftless.

so? I AM AWARE OF IT. I TRY TO CHANGE IT!

you all are blissfully accepting the easy answers to your problems that this and other administrations give you. it's never the fault of the wealthy corporation or landowner, it's the guy they exploit! damn him! if only he would come over here, then those corporations would hire americans and chocolates and teddy bears would rain from the sky.

:rolleyes:

NON-ISSUE you are being brainwashed, wake up!

[giggs11uk]

I wish you had learned english before you became a citizen.:D

I was born in England I know English I just don't know American

[sinewave]

actually, you cited the following

people thinking it is and issue, protests,and the national guard.


that doesn't tell anyone WHY it's an issue. merely how they are MAKING it an issue.

the people protested because a law was propossed that would criminalize helping illegals while in the US, think about that. also it gave law enforcement an excuse to single out hispanics, who would from then on have to carry ID at all times, and they best not look "Mexican" out in public.
this law was just recently propossed, it hasn't been in the wings for long, why do you think that Bush is jumping on this now? when Chris Simcox and his border patrol idiots have been around since before 2001?
if you study up on the economic impact it seems that economists are split over the effects, some say it's positive some it's negative.

frankly IT IS A NON-ISSUE.

because americans aren't losing jobs to illegals, sorry, but I have yet to see the guy that wants to work 12 hours picking fruit for less than minimum wage, and last time I checked, a lot of companies are outsourcing to India and China, you tell me how a triple wall on 20% of your borders is going to help that.
back when in Canada they wanted to make french the "Official Language" in some parts, I saw story upon story on the news exalting the openess that the US had to languages, and how "proud" they where of it.

you are being brainwashed into nationalism, and it's a sad thing to see.
yeah, before you start, I know that Mexico's government is corrupt and shiftless.

so? I AM AWARE OF IT. I TRY TO CHANGE IT!

you all are blissfully accepting the easy answers to your problems that this and other administrations give you. it's never the fault of the wealthy corporation or landowner, it's the guy they exploit! damn him! if only he would come over here, then those corporations would hire americans and chocolates and teddy bears would rain from the sky.

:rolleyes:

NON-ISSUE you are being brainwashed, wake up!


yup, i've been saying this for months now and it's just ridiculous how some people are buying into this immigration crap right now. it's just a wedge issue distraction from the scandals, corruption and incompetence within the republican party and it's only helping to further divide this country, no matter what bush says in my sig.

[Darthphere]

actually, you cited the following

people thinking it is and issue, protests,and the national guard.


that doesn't tell anyone WHY it's an issue. merely how they are MAKING it an issue.

the people protested because a law was propossed that would criminalize helping illegals while in the US, think about that. also it gave law enforcement an excuse to single out hispanics, who would from then on have to carry ID at all times, and they best not look "Mexican" out in public.
this law was just recently propossed, it hasn't been in the wings for long, why do you think that Bush is jumping on this now? when Chris Simcox and his border patrol idiots have been around since before 2001?
if you study up on the economic impact it seems that economists are split over the effects, some say it's positive some it's negative.

frankly IT IS A NON-ISSUE.

because americans aren't losing jobs to illegals, sorry, but I have yet to see the guy that wants to work 12 hours picking fruit for less than minimum wage, and last time I checked, a lot of companies are outsourcing to India and China, you tell me how a triple wall on 20% of your borders is going to help that.
back when in Canada they wanted to make french the "Official Language" in some parts, I saw story upon story on the news exalting the openess that the US had to languages, and how "proud" they where of it.

you are being brainwashed into nationalism, and it's a sad thing to see.
yeah, before you start, I know that Mexico's government is corrupt and shiftless.

so? I AM AWARE OF IT. I TRY TO CHANGE IT!

you all are blissfully accepting the easy answers to your problems that this and other administrations give you. it's never the fault of the wealthy corporation or landowner, it's the guy they exploit! damn him! if only he would come over here, then those corporations would hire americans and chocolates and teddy bears would rain from the sky.

:rolleyes:

NON-ISSUE you are being brainwashed, wake up!


:up: :up: :up:

[Darthphere]

I was born in England I know English I just don't know American


Yeah since the language is so different.:confused:

[ShadowBoxing]

yup, i've been saying this for months now and it's just ridiculous how some people are buying into this immigration crap right now. it's just a wedge issue distraction from the scandals, corruption and incompetence within the republican party and it's only helping to further divide this country, no matter what bush says in my sig.Actually I should note we have full employment right now (its something like 4.8/4.89....they say 4.3 is ideal unemployment)...so the immigrants have not done much of anything to the workforce.

[ShadowBoxing]

If they really think that making English the OFFICIAL language of the United States will serve as a unifying thing, they're delusional. I find it ironic that Bush is pushing for this when he can barely speak English himself, actually. I love how when the approval ratings are low or there's things going on that Bush doesn't want people to pay attention to (like the things happening in Iraq) that he and his cronies drudge up non-issues like gay marriage and immigration for people to fixate on instead.

jagI know the minute men are rilled up about the National Athemn issue, what they probably forget is that George W Bush sang, yes he sang, the National Athemn in Spanish during his 2000 campaign.

[sinewave]

Actually I should note we have full employment right now (its something like 4.8/4.89....they say 4.3 is ideal unemployment)...so the immigrants have not done much of anything to the workforce.

:confused:

[jaguarr]

actually, you cited the following

people thinking it is and issue, protests,and the national guard.


that doesn't tell anyone WHY it's an issue. merely how they are MAKING it an issue.

the people protested because a law was propossed that would criminalize helping illegals while in the US, think about that. also it gave law enforcement an excuse to single out hispanics, who would from then on have to carry ID at all times, and they best not look "Mexican" out in public.
this law was just recently propossed, it hasn't been in the wings for long, why do you think that Bush is jumping on this now? when Chris Simcox and his border patrol idiots have been around since before 2001?
if you study up on the economic impact it seems that economists are split over the effects, some say it's positive some it's negative.

frankly IT IS A NON-ISSUE.

because americans aren't losing jobs to illegals, sorry, but I have yet to see the guy that wants to work 12 hours picking fruit for less than minimum wage, and last time I checked, a lot of companies are outsourcing to India and China, you tell me how a triple wall on 20% of your borders is going to help that.
back when in Canada they wanted to make french the "Official Language" in some parts, I saw story upon story on the news exalting the openess that the US had to languages, and how "proud" they where of it.

you are being brainwashed into nationalism, and it's a sad thing to see.
yeah, before you start, I know that Mexico's government is corrupt and shiftless.

so? I AM AWARE OF IT. I TRY TO CHANGE IT!

you all are blissfully accepting the easy answers to your problems that this and other administrations give you. it's never the fault of the wealthy corporation or landowner, it's the guy they exploit! damn him! if only he would come over here, then those corporations would hire americans and chocolates and teddy bears would rain from the sky.

:rolleyes:

NON-ISSUE you are being brainwashed, wake up!

You are far more patient than I, it would seem. Nicely done. :up:

jag

[Admiral_N8]

the people protested because a law was propossed that would criminalize helping illegals while in the US, think about that. frankly IT IS A NON-ISSUE.

because americans aren't losing jobs to illegals, sorry, but I have yet to see the guy that wants to work 12 hours picking fruit for less than minimum wage, and last time I checked, a lot of companies are outsourcing to India and China, you tell me how a triple wall on 20% of your borders is going to help that.
back when in Canada they wanted to make french the "Official Language" in some parts, I saw story upon story on the news exalting the openess that the US had to languages, and how "proud" they where of it.

you are being brainwashed into nationalism, and it's a sad thing to see.
yeah, before you start, I know that Mexico's government is corrupt and shiftless.


Actually the people protested against the new law partly, but they mainly wanted new legislation making it easier. I was there, and you could see it on the news, they want immigration laws changed to make it easier.

And those millions that took part in this entire thing, its a "non-issue" to them?? :rolleyes:

You think it doesnt cost America anything? Two years ago in California alone illegal immigration problem costs 10.5 BILLION dollars a year , 7.7 billion of that for educating illegal immigrants kids in public schools [where their parents dont pay into that system with property taxes like the rest of us].

Yes thats right, 10.5 BILLION dollars a year in just California alone.

Non-issue?? Righhhhhhht.

[souloffire]

actually, you cited the following

people thinking it is and issue, protests,and the national guard.


that doesn't tell anyone WHY it's an issue. merely how they are MAKING it an issue.

the people protested because a law was propossed that would criminalize helping illegals while in the US, think about that. also it gave law enforcement an excuse to single out hispanics, who would from then on have to carry ID at all times, and they best not look "Mexican" out in public.
this law was just recently propossed, it hasn't been in the wings for long, why do you think that Bush is jumping on this now? when Chris Simcox and his border patrol idiots have been around since before 2001?
if you study up on the economic impact it seems that economists are split over the effects, some say it's positive some it's negative.

frankly IT IS A NON-ISSUE.

because americans aren't losing jobs to illegals, sorry, but I have yet to see the guy that wants to work 12 hours picking fruit for less than minimum wage, and last time I checked, a lot of companies are outsourcing to India and China, you tell me how a triple wall on 20% of your borders is going to help that.
back when in Canada they wanted to make french the "Official Language" in some parts, I saw story upon story on the news exalting the openess that the US had to languages, and how "proud" they where of it.

you are being brainwashed into nationalism, and it's a sad thing to see.
yeah, before you start, I know that Mexico's government is corrupt and shiftless.

so? I AM AWARE OF IT. I TRY TO CHANGE IT!

you all are blissfully accepting the easy answers to your problems that this and other administrations give you. it's never the fault of the wealthy corporation or landowner, it's the guy they exploit! damn him! if only he would come over here, then those corporations would hire americans and chocolates and teddy bears would rain from the sky.

:rolleyes:

NON-ISSUE you are being brainwashed, wake up!Again, I NEVER GAVE my opinion on the immigration issue. I merely stated that it's a little more than a "non-issue". That's it. Never said anything about "Americans losing jobs" or the "economic impact" it has. So I don't know who's post's you were reading.

[ShadowBoxing]

:confused:What, I was agreeing with you.

[Darthphere]

Actually the people protested against the new law partly, but they mainly wanted new legislation making it easier. I was there, and you could see it on the news, they want immigration laws changed to make it easier.

And those millions that took part in this entire thing, its a "non-issue" to them?? :rolleyes:

You think it doesnt cost America anything? Two years ago in California alone illegal immigration problem costs 10.5 BILLION dollars a year , 7.7 billion of that for educating illegal immigrants kids in public schools [where their parents dont pay into that system with property taxes like the rest of us].

Yes thats right, 10.5 BILLION dollars a year in just California alone.

Non-issue?? Righhhhhhht.


How much welfare did they give out in California?

[Admiral_N8]

How much welfare did they give out in California?

give out to who?

[Darthphere]

give out to who?


To people who applied for welfare.:confused:

[Admiral_N8]

To people who applied for welfare.:confused:

Ummm i dont know, why??

[Darthphere]

Ummm i dont know, why??


Just wondering how much they cost the state of California a year.

[Admiral_N8]

Just wondering how much they cost the state of California a year.

Who is "they"? All the people who applied for welfare in California??

[Darthphere]

Who is "they"? All the people who applied for welfare in California??


Yes.:confused:

[Admiral_N8]

Yes.:confused:

I have no idea.

[celldog]

If they really think that making English the OFFICIAL language of the United States will serve as a unifying thing, they're delusional. I find it ironic that Bush is pushing for this when he can barely speak English himself, actually. I love how when the approval ratings are low or there's things going on that Bush doesn't want people to pay attention to (like the things happening in Iraq) that he and his cronies drudge up non-issues like gay marriage and immigration for people to fixate on instead.

jag



Baloney. I for one am tired of telephone prompts saying "press one for english" press two for spanish". This is ridiculous. And though having everyone speak english is not the total solution for unity, you will not have unity at all, if we don't. This country will be divided into small unassimilated pockets. Look at what happened in europe with those Muslims. They were not required to assimilate into European culture. thus they do not feel a part of it. Language is important to success and even safety.

Why should our firemen and policemen have to take spanish courses?? Shouldn't the hispanics learn English?? Only America caters to people like this. :mad:

[Corinthian™]

Baloney. I for one am tired of telephone prompts saying "press one for english" press two for spanish". This is ridiculous. And though having everyone speak english is not the total solution for unity, you will not have unity at all, if we don't. This country will be divided into small unassimilated pockets. Look at what happened in europe with those Muslims. They were not required to assimilate into European culture. thus they do not feel a part of it. Language is important to success and even safety.

Why should our firemen and policemen have to take spanish courses?? Shouldn't the hispanics learn English?? Only America caters to people like this. :mad:
of for Satan's sake, please, shush

[jaguarr]

Baloney. I for one am tired of telephone prompts saying "press one for english" press two for spanish". This is ridiculous. And though having everyone speak english is not the total solution for unity, you will not have unity at all, if we don't. This country will be divided into small unassimilated pockets. Look at what happened in europe with those Muslims. They were not required to assimilate into European culture. thus they do not feel a part of it. Language is important to success and even safety.

Why should our firemen and policemen have to take spanish courses?? Shouldn't the hispanics learn English?? Only America caters to people like this. :mad:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/jaguarr/shh/robocop.gif

jag

[Corinthian™]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/jaguarr/shh/robocop.gif

jag
my same reaction:(

[Admiral_N8]

Baloney. I for one am tired of telephone prompts saying "press one for english" press two for spanish". This is ridiculous. And though having everyone speak english is not the total solution for unity, you will not have unity at all, if we don't. This country will be divided into small unassimilated pockets. Look at what happened in europe with those Muslims. They were not required to assimilate into European culture. thus they do not feel a part of it. Language is important to success and even safety.

Why should our firemen and policemen have to take spanish courses?? Shouldn't the hispanics learn English?? Only America caters to people like this. :mad:

Ya having such a large number of people not speaking the unofficial official language of America [english] can lead to a lot of problems, like in hospitals where translators arent present so they cant ask questions or communicate vital information. And it other emergency situations.

If people want to speak spanish thats super, just learn English as well.

[SickBoy]

I think people should speak multiple languages. Why not? That's the best thing. Language programs in most American schools pretty much suck though.

[Darthphere]

Ya having such a large number of people not speaking the unofficial official language of America [english] can lead to a lot of problems, like in hospitals where translators arent present so they cant ask questions or communicate vital information. And it other emergency situations.

If people want to speak spanish thats super, just learn English as well.


Thats the thing this bill is trying to change. Why should a hispanic guy learn english when its not an official language? Because the majority speak it? Well the majority of people are white, should we make a bill saying the offcial race of america is white?

[sinewave]

What, I was agreeing with you.

okay, sorry. i was genuinely confused with the content of your post. i'm a little slow sometimes. :(

[dcbmp]

Thats the thing this bill is trying to change. Why should a hispanic guy learn english when its not an official language? Because the majority speak it? Well the majority of people are white, should we make a bill saying the offcial race of america is white?
Why should everyone else BUT us have an offical language? Language is unifying. We can't have the southwest speaking spanish but the North speaking english. How would we do business?

[Darthphere]

Why should everyone else BUT us have an offical language? Language is unifying. We can't have the southwest speaking spanish but the North speaking english. How would we do business?


Money talks.

[Admiral_N8]

Thats the thing this bill is trying to change. Why should a hispanic guy learn english when its not an official language? Because the majority speak it? Well the majority of people are white, should we make a bill saying the offcial race of america is white?

Umm that was just silly.

Having a common/official language is for functionality and practicallity, if a large part of the nation doesnt speak the same language as another part that will lead to a lot of disfunction.

I am sure you would agree.

[Admiral_N8]

Money talks.

Thats your answer to how we would solve it if the southwest spoke spanish and the rest english??

[Darthphere]

Umm that was just silly.

Having a common/official language is for functionality and practicallity, if a large part of the nation doesnt speak the same language as another part that will lead to a lot of disfunction.

I am sure you would agree.


I dont know if you realize this but other countries have portions that speak different languages. My native country of Nicaragua the west coast speaks spanish the east coast english. Canada speaks English, French and Canadia, you what thats aboot. Most countries in Europe speak more than one language, they seem to be getting on fine.

[Darthphere]

Thats your answer to how we would solve it if the southwest spoke spanish and the rest english??


Money is a universal language.:up:

[Admiral_N8]

I dont know if you realize this but other countries have portions that speak different languages. My native country of Nicaragua the west coast speaks spanish the east coast english. Canada speaks English, French and Canadia, you what thats aboot. Most countries in Europe speak more than one language, they seem to be getting on fine.

Yes but they can also speak the national language.

As I have said before its fine if you want to speak spanish, but you also need to know English.

Most countries in Europe [take France for example] know French and maybe english and german. BUT they know their nations language, French.

So your example is hugely different, European nations and America. Because the problem here is that these people dont know English.

[Darthphere]

Yes but they can also speak the national language.

As I have said before its fine if you want to speak spanish, but you also need to know English.

Most countries in Europe [take France for example] know French and maybe english and german. BUT they know their nations language, French.

So your example is hugely different, European nations and America. Because the problem here is that these people dont know English.


Once again, but the US doesnt have a national language ...yet.

[Admiral_N8]

Once again, but the US doesnt have a national language ...yet.

So what, doesnt mean anything that it isnt the "official" language.

You agree though that Europe and Americas situation is hugely different. France, and other big European nations, dont have the problem of citizens in their own nation not being able to speak french.

Anyway, what was your original point? That it will be fine if part of the country doesnt speak english at all?

[Darthphere]

So what, doesnt mean anything that it isnt the "official" language.

You agree though that Europe and Americas situation is hugely different. France, and other big European nations, dont have the problem of citizens in their own nation not being able to speak french.

Anyway, what was your original point? That it will be fine if part of the country doesnt speak english at all?


Worse things have happened. I dont think its something you should kill yourself over.

[Admiral_N8]

Worse things have happened. I dont think its something you should kill yourself over.

Ok I guess you didnt have anything :confused:

[Darthphere]

Ok I guess you didnt have anything :confused:


I dont see the big deal if an area of the US doesnt speak english, considering its not like an official language or anything. But im from Miami, everyone here speaks english and spanish.

[Admiral_N8]

I dont see the big deal if an area of the US doesnt speak english, considering its not like an official language or anything. But im from Miami, everyone here speaks english and spanish.

So if it changes and it is an official language you think its a big deal?

But today you dont think its a big deal that such a huge number cant communicate to the rest of the nation, and vice versa?

[Darthphere]

So if it changes and it is an official language you think its a big deal?

But today you dont think its a big deal that such a huge number cant communicate to the rest of the nation, and vice versa?


I dont know, should we learn Navajo as well? Since they were like here first.

[Admiral_N8]

I dont know, should we learn Navajo as well? Since they were like here first.

Thats silly, dont take things to the absurd extreme, we are talking about today.

You really dont have a point do you...

[Darthphere]

Thats silly, dont take things to the absurd extreme, we are talking about today.

You really dont have a point do you...


I never said I did, or required one. All im saying trying to force people to assimilate to speaking a language just because the majority speak it is absurd to me. If people who only speak spanish cant communicate with english speakers its their problem not mine, not yours.

[Badabing]

The U.S.A. should have a set language. It makes the country more united and makes the day to day operations of businesses and schools more efficient.

[Admiral_N8]

I never said I did, or required one. All im saying trying to force people to assimilate to speaking a language just because the majority speak it is absurd to me. If people who only speak spanish cant communicate with english speakers its their problem not mine, not yours.

How is it absurd to require them to be able to communicate with the country to become a citizen in that country??

Actually it is my problem too, when I go to resturaunts or businesses I cant communicate with them, and thats my problem. Or if I cant read signs to get around because they are in spanish, thats my problem. Or they require the taxpayers to pay more to accomidate their language in public schools, thats my problem. See? Its hugely impractical.

[Darthphere]

How is it absurd to require them to be able to communicate with the country to become a citizen in that country??

Actually it is my problem too, when I go to resturaunts or businesses I cant communicate with them, and thats my problem. Or if I cant read signs to get around because they are in spanish, thats my problem. Or they require the taxpayers to pay more to accomidate their language in public schools, thats my problem. See? Its hugely impractical.


I find the minting of a penny costing 1.3 cents impractical but I live through the day.

[Admiral_N8]

I find the minting of a penny costing 1.3 cents impractical but I live through the day.

Ummm okay :up:

[Darthphere]

You guys keep bringing up all the money tax payers are spending a year accomadating for illegals, but you guys never bring up figures like how much in taxes they the government gets from them or how much welfare the US gives out to people who unlike the illegals arent working. I know youll come back with some argument that they shouldnt be here in the first place, but you guys need to open your eyes up to the other side of the problem.

Damn these strawberries are good, thanks illegal workers.

[lazur]

If they really think that making English the OFFICIAL language of the United States will serve as a unifying thing, they're delusional. I find it ironic that Bush is pushing for this when he can barely speak English himself, actually. I love how when the approval ratings are low or there's things going on that Bush doesn't want people to pay attention to (like the things happening in Iraq) that he and his cronies drudge up non-issues like gay marriage and immigration for people to fixate on instead.

jag

See, I never quite understood this mentality. So you're saying that if something big is going on, all other government activity should just, what, stop?

Republicans said the same thing about Clinton whenever he did something - "He's just trying to take the focus off this other, more important issue right here!"

BS. The government needs to be diverse and able to multi-task. No offense, Jag, but all your argument does is demonstrate just how biased you really are. This particular government can do nothing right in your eyes, even when it's something so basic as wanting immigrants to learn the language. Sheesh.

[Kent]

I think english should be the official language, and should be a requirement for obtaining citizenship. If I have pass out from a stroke or something, then the potential good samaritain should be able to call an ambulance in English.

LMAO. I guess it would be a lot better if said good samaritan is in another country at the time because they wouldn't let him/her in, huh? :o

[Admiral_N8]

You guys keep bringing up all the money tax payers are spending a year accomadating for illegals, but you guys never bring up figures like how much in taxes they the government gets from them or how much welfare the US gives out to people who unlike the illegals arent working. I know youll come back with some argument that they shouldnt be here in the first place, but you guys need to open your eyes up to the other side of the problem.

Damn these strawberries are good, thanks illegal workers.

The government doesnt get any social security taxes, property taxes, or income taxes from these illegals. Just sales tax, which is a drop in the bucket compared the others.

[Corinthian™]

The government doesnt get any social security taxes, property taxes, or income taxes from these illegals. Just sales tax, which is a drop in the bucket compared the others.
some funny articles

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/10128

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/phyllisschlafly/2006/04/24/194910/comments.html?comid=37871&f=item

ehh.. it's not a respectable new source, it was just a couple I found... I read an article similar on the washington post weeks before but don't remember where

[Admiral_N8]

some funny articles

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/10128

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/phyllisschlafly/2006/04/24/194910/comments.html?comid=37871&f=item

ehh.. it's not a respectable new source, it was just a couple I found... I read an article similar on the washington post weeks before but don't remember where

Yes not respectable news sources, but its nice to see where you get your info from :up:

[jaguarr]

See, I never quite understood this mentality. So you're saying that if something big is going on, all other government activity should just, what, stop?

Republicans said the same thing about Clinton whenever he did something - "He's just trying to take the focus off this other, more important issue right here!"

BS. The government needs to be diverse and able to multi-task. No offense, Jag, but all your argument does is demonstrate just how biased you really are. This particular government can do nothing right in your eyes, even when it's something so basic as wanting immigrants to learn the language. Sheesh.

Lazur, I don't disagree that our government needs to be diverse and able to multi-task. However, they've shown in recent years that they aren't really very good at that. The horrible preparedness and reaction to Hurricane Katrina on both state and federal levels was and is appalling. The conversion of a record surplus to a record deficit is ridiculous. The state of the Social Security system is awful, as are the Medicade/Medicare and Health and Welfare systems. The cronyism, lobbyist power, corporate back scratching and unabashed encouragement of offshoring of American jobs is rampant like never before in our government. The either outright misuse, blatant disregard or plain ignorance over vital intelligence (CIA agent's names "leaked", WMD's never found, NSA phone record scandals, etc.) is completely out of hand. The state of our foreign relations is in shambles. Our government's environmental and energy policies are a travesty. And, overall regard for the freedoms of Americans by our government has been damn near chucked out the window in the name of "stopping terrorism" which is asinine to me. Forgive me if I do not show much confidence in our government as it stands today, because they are not addressing any of those things, which are truly major issues, in any fashion remotely resembling satisfactory let alone being able to mutl-task and address issues like immigration, what language is the U.S.A.'s official one and gay marriage, that so pale in comparison to those things I listed before that they become non-issues in comparison. Yes, Clinton did some stupid things as well, but the Republicans are the one's that blew up the whole Lewinsky thing, which I found inconsequential to be honest, to such a state that it took center stage over everything else. If wanting a government that will focus on and fix the right things that really matter instead of using smaller issues like this one as a diversionary tactic to DISTRACT from the fact that they're not doing any of that makes me biased, then I guess I'm biased.

jag

[Corinthian™]

Yes not respectable news sources, but its nice to see where you get your info from :up:
I just googled that moment ago. Was to lazy to find some other info like a newspaper of NY, DC or LA or some big place..

I get my info from Radio, some T.V.(NBC and Mexican Broadcasting Companies) and BBC/CNN

[Admiral_N8]

I just googled that moment ago. Was to lazy to find some other info like a newspaper of NY, DC or LA or some big place..

I get my info from Radio, some T.V.(NBC and Mexican Broadcasting Companies) and BBC/CNN

You might want to remove the BBC from your list...as they have been shown to be one of the most liberally biased news sources in the West.

[Admiral_N8]

Yes, Clinton did some stupid things as well, but the Republicans are the one's that blew up the whole Lewinsky thing, which I found inconsequential to be honest, to such a state that it took center stage over everything else.

jag

I still dont understand how a president repeatedly lying to the media, congress, and then under oath comitting perjury is "inconsequential".

[Corinthian™]

You might want to remove the BBC from your list...as they have been shown to be one of the most liberally biased news sources in the West.
ain't BBC from England?

[Darthphere]

I still dont understand how a president repeatedly lying to the media, congress, and then under oath comitting perjury is "inconsequential".


Well think about what he lied about. In the grand scheme of things, who really cares?

[Admiral_N8]

Well think about what he lied about. In the grand scheme of things, who really cares?

Who really cares if their president continuously lies to the media, the public, congress, then under oath??

I, for one, do.

I wouldnt have cared at all if he would have just told the truth, or said its not the publics business, and NOT lied to everyone and then under oath about it.

[Admiral_N8]

ain't BBC from England?

Yes.

[Darthphere]

Who really cares if their president continuously lies to the media, the public, congress, then under oath??

I, for one, do.

I wouldnt have cared at all if he would have just told the truth, or said its not the publics business, and NOT lied to everyone and then under oath about it.


Boo-hoo. He lied about having an affair. Now, if he lied about deploying missiles at North korea thats a different story.

[jaguarr]

I still dont understand how a president repeatedly lying to the media, congress, and then under oath comitting perjury is "inconsequential".

Are we talking about Bush or Clinton? ;)

jag

[Admiral_N8]

Boo-hoo. He lied about having an affair. Now, if he lied about deploying missiles at North korea thats a different story.

So funny how the people towards the left dont seem to mind the president, who is also on the left, lying over and over and over again then under oath.:up:

[Darthphere]

So funny how the people towards the left dont seem to mind the president, who is also on the left, lying over and over and over again then under oath.:up:


Its funny how people on the right dont seem to mind the president, also on the right, lying over and over again under oath.:up:

[Admiral_N8]

Its funny how people on the right dont seem to mind the president, also on the right, lying over and over again under oath.:up:

When/what you talking about??

Trying to say your wrong is okay because other people possibly comitted a similar wrong?? :up:

[Darthphere]

When/what you talking about??

Trying to say your wrong is okay because other people possibly comitted a similar wrong?? :up:


No, im just using your logic against you. Its ok, youll be taken care of.:up:

[Admiral_N8]

No, im just using your logic against you. Its ok, youll be taken care of.:up:

So when you cant think of anything you just copy what I say??

How do you think its okay for the president to lie under oath?

[Darthphere]

So when you cant think of anything you just copy what I say??

How do you think its okay for the president to lie under oath?


I dont really, but id rather take Clinton lying uder oath about an affair than Bush/lackeys lying under oath about spying on Americans.

[Admiral_N8]

I dont really, but id rather take Clinton lying uder oath about an affair than Bush/lackeys lying under oath about spying on Americans.

There you go, trying to say Clintons lie was okay or wasnt bad because of some other wrong action.
:up:

[Darthphere]

There you go, trying to say Clintons lie was okay or wasnt bad because of some other wrong action.
:up:


Do you need me to pull up how many times that arguemtn has been used in defense of Bush on these boards, its astounding.

[Admiral_N8]

Do you need me to pull up how many times that arguemtn has been used in defense of Bush on these boards, its astounding.

Still making excuses? So you are saying since another president did something, and other posters did something, its then okay for you to do that same thing?? :down

[Darthphere]

Still making excuses? So you are saying since another president did something, and other posters did something, its then okay for you to do that same thing?? :down


No, im using your arguments against you. Didnt I state this already?:confused:

[Admiral_N8]

No, im using your arguments against you. Didnt I state this already?:confused:

Yes you did.

I ask you a simple question, and you cant answer it :up:

again, go ahead and try without just copying what someone else says

"How do you think its okay for President Clinton to lie under oath? Is it really not a big issue for the president to lie to the country again and againd and then under oath?"

[Darthphere]

Yes you did.

I ask you a simple question, and you cant answer it :up:

again, go ahead and try without just copying what someone else says

"How do you think its okay for President Clinton to lie under oath?"


When it involves an asinine investigation into a personal matter that shouldnt have been brought in front of a Supreme Court justice and under went impeachment proceedings over something as trivial as having an affair.

[Admiral_N8]

When it involves an asinine investigation into a personal matter that shouldnt have been brought in front of a Supreme Court justice and under went impeachment proceedings over something as trivial as having an affair.

Youre drunk, and still not making sense, you still dont seem to mind him lying under oath at all.

[Darthphere]

Youre drunk, and still not making sense, you still dont seem to mind him lying under oath at all.


We established this 3 pages ago.

[SickBoy]

You might want to remove the BBC from your list...as they have been shown to be one of the most liberally biased news sources in the West.

What's wrong with watching liberally biased news if you are a liberal?

And I don't get the BBC at my house but i watch it occasionally at other people's houses and it doesn't seem very biased. And, at least when i've watched it, they report on LOTS of different things, both interesting and important, and don't just fixate on one particular topic. Keep in mind, i don't get the BBC at my house so i don't watch it often, but this is what i recall from what i HAVE seen.

[SickBoy]

Yes you did.

I ask you a simple question, and you cant answer it :up:

again, go ahead and try without just copying what someone else says

"How do you think its okay for President Clinton to lie under oath? Is it really not a big issue for the president to lie to the country again and againd and then under oath?"

Obviously it's wrong to lie under oath. But him lying about an affair had nothing to do with the nation's welfare or security. The LIE UNDER OATH was wrong, yes, but the AFFAIR ITSELF was pointless. It in no way affected the nation in any serious way.

[Admiral_N8]

What's wrong with watching liberally biased news if you are a liberal?

And I don't get the BBC at my house but i watch it occasionally at other people's houses and it doesn't seem very biased. And, at least when i've watched it, they report on LOTS of different things, both interesting and important, and don't just fixate on one particular topic. Keep in mind, i don't get the BBC at my house so i don't watch it often, but this is what i recall from what i HAVE seen.

Because you dont just want to watch things that feed you whatever you already think...to listen only to people who agree with you is not a good idea. I am sure you would agree.

[Admiral_N8]

Obviously it's wrong to lie under oath. But him lying about an affair had nothing to do with the nation's welfare or security. The LIE UNDER OATH was wrong, yes, but the AFFAIR ITSELF was pointless. It in no way affected the nation in any serious way.

I 100% agree.

The moment he lied under oath was when we should ALL think it was wrong...but some let their bias get in the way of that simple fact.

[Darthphere]

I 100% agree.

The moment he lied under oath was when we should ALL think it was wrong...but some let their bias get in the way of that simple fact.


Goddamn bias.

[Admiral_N8]

Goddamn bias.

Exactly.

[Darthphere]

Exactly.


You know I agree with you, its just more fun arguing against you. Plus im drunk.:(

[Admiral_N8]

You know I agree with you, its just more fun arguing against you. Plus im drunk.:(

Yes I am also not a fan of just agreeing, it is more fun to argue, makes things interesting. :up: :)

Youre a good and fast typer for a drunk though :D

[Darthphere]

Yes I am also not a fan of just agreeing, it is more fun to argue, makes things interesting. :up: :)

Youre a good and fast typer for a drunk though :D


Ill take that as a compliment.

[SickBoy]

Because you dont just want to watch things that feed you whatever you already think...to listen only to people who agree with you is not a good idea. I am sure you would agree.

I don't just watch/listen to liberal news. Actually i enjoy watching/listening to/reading conservative news too. I like to know how/what the other side thinks. And i don't always agree with everything either side says, but I definitely tend to agree more with the liberal news.

I don't like when either side is overly-biased to an extreme point. But I like the BBC every now and then, my step-dad watches the world news on BBC and other BBC stuff almost every night, so i watch it at his house when im visiting and I enjoy it. It doesn't appear to be extremely slanted one way or the other.

I prefer news that says what problems are going on in the world, what good things are going on in the world, etc., rather than endless commentary on one or two particular subjects.

I hate the constant debates on tv/radio over things happening in the news, where nothing ever gets properly discussed, no one can agree, nothing CONSTRUCTIVE or HELPFUL gets said, and nothing gets accomplished.

[SickBoy]

I 100% agree.

The moment he lied under oath was when we should ALL think it was wrong...but some let their bias get in the way of that simple fact.

True. Too many people - on BOTH sides equally, liberal and conservative - let their bias get in the way of the facts. People are too stubborn to ever change their minds or admit that they might be wrong.

[Admiral_N8]

I don't just watch/listen to liberal news. Actually i enjoy watching/listening to/reading conservative news too. I like to know how/what the other side thinks. And i don't always agree with everything either side says, but I definitely tend to agree more with the liberal news.

I don't like when either side is overly-biased to an extreme point. But I like the BBC every now and then, my step-dad watches the world news on BBC and other BBC stuff almost every night, so i watch it at his house when im visiting and I enjoy it. It doesn't appear to be extremely slanted one way or the other.

I prefer news that says what problems are going on in the world, what good things are going on in the world, etc., rather than endless commentary on one or two particular subjects.

I hate the constant debates on tv/radio over things happening in the news, where nothing ever gets properly discussed, no one can agree, nothing CONSTRUCTIVE or HELPFUL gets said, and nothing gets accomplished.

Ya I dont really like commentary, shows like Hannity and Colmes, they just yell and nothing gets finished.

I just dont think its right how people will just watch things they agree with.

[SickBoy]

I just dont think its right how people will just watch things they agree with.

Totally! Most people don't even like to hear the opposite side of things. They are so set in what they think. It's like even if they DO see things in another way or realize they may have been wrong about something, they are way too proud to admit it. Like it will make them seem less intelligent or something. Like they're "flip-flopping" or something.

People need to know that it's more intelligent and thoughtful to consider various sides of arguments than to bullheadedly stick to one opinion no matter what. We have the ability to reason and think for ourselves, we should use it.

[Admiral_N8]

Totally! Most people don't even like to hear the opposite side of things. They are so set in what they think. It's like even if they DO see things in another way or realize they may have been wrong about something, they are way too proud to admit it. Like it will make them seem less intelligent or something. Like they're "flip-flopping" or something.

People need to know that it's more intelligent and thoughtful to consider various sides of arguments than to bullheadedly stick to one opinion no matter what. We have the ability to reason and think for ourselves, we should use it.

Yep, thats why coming on here is fun, because about 90% of the posters here completely disagree with me.

[SickBoy]

Yep, thats why coming on here is fun, because about 90% of the posters here completely disagree with me.

Ha. yeah, it's fun to talk to people with differing opinions. And with so many different people commenting on a particular subject, you can see all different aspects of that subject and look at things in ways you never considered before. I don't know if the Hype is more liberal than not, i assume it is from what ive seen, but it can vary from topic to topic.

[Admiral_N8]

Ha. yeah, it's fun to talk to people with differing opinions. And with so many different people commenting on a particular subject, you can see all different aspects of that subject and look at things in ways you never considered before. I don't know if the Hype is more liberal than not, i assume it is from what ive seen, but it can vary from topic to topic.

Yeah its defiNATEly left of center.

Whats great about places like this is how absurd things are, like how spiteful and immaturely people talk to people on here, its fun.

[SickBoy]

Yeah its defiNATEly left of center.

Whats great about places like this is how absurd things are, like how spiteful and immaturely people talk to people on here, its fun.

Well there are a lot of young people on here. And one thing about talking over the internet is that you lose your inhibitions and also have a lower feeling of responsibility for what you say. If we were all talking face to face in a room, i'm sure some people would act a little different.

[Mr Sparkle]

Actually the people protested against the new law partly, but they mainly wanted new legislation making it easier. I was there, and you could see it on the news, they want immigration laws changed to make it easier.

And those millions that took part in this entire thing, its a "non-issue" to them?? :rolleyes:

You think it doesnt cost America anything? Two years ago in California alone illegal immigration problem costs 10.5 BILLION dollars a year , 7.7 billion of that for educating illegal immigrants kids in public schools [where their parents dont pay into that system with property taxes like the rest of us].

Yes thats right, 10.5 BILLION dollars a year in just California alone.

Non-issue?? Righhhhhhht.

lol, I was also "there" and they only protested because this law came into play. sorry. Immigration reform cries came only AFTER the law was propossed not before.

like I said, Millions "that protested" mean nothing, if they only did "AFTER" the law was propossed and it was a dumb extremist law to begin with, If I come up with a proposed law to kill everyone whose name rimes "con" millions would also protest.
so again, I can see how they are MAKING it and issue not why is IS and issue. seems you can't tell the two apart.

and as far as the economic impact, like I ALREADY SAID economists are split on this issue, next time you try sounding condescending stick to topics you know, like golf or watercolors of Bradon Routh because on this topic your ignorance is obvious and an annoyance frankly.

[Mr Sparkle]

There you go, trying to say Clintons lie was okay or wasnt bad because of some other wrong action.
:up:

dumb question.

how was Clinton's life affecting the nation and other nations in any way shape or form.


and how are Bush's lies affecting the nation and other nations?


see? logic is a harsh mistress.:o

[hippie_hunter]

how was Clinton's life affecting the nation and other nations in any way shape or form.
I don't think that Clinton lying is what people are complaining about, it's that his lies were a crime: perjury. Yes what he did was wrong, but it didn't affect the nation one bit. So you are right on that account.

and how are Bush's lies affecting the nation and other nations?
Yes Bush has lied about the wire tapping and the taxes, but his Iraq war claims have not yet been proven to be a lie...yet. But yes his lies totally suck ass and I feel that my personal rights could be violated because of his policies, unlike Clinton.

[Admiral_N8]

dumb question.

how was Clinton's life affecting the nation and other nations in any way shape or form.


and how are Bush's lies affecting the nation and other nations?


see? logic is a harsh mistress.:o

goodness, how many times must we say the same things over and over again. His private life didnt affect us at all, that was of course until he committed a crime and lied repeatedly to the public and then under oath, you know, that little thing called perjury??

THATs whats bad about it, a president lying under oath, I love how people seem not to mind that at all [as long as they are on the same political side :rolleyes:]

:up:

[Malice]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?

[Matt]

Seems like a good plan to me. Fair, but firm. I don't think you go far enough after the 6 months though. I think it is time we start punishing illegals. I try to sneak into Mexico and get caught, I spend a few years in prison south of the border. I don't just get sent home to try again. It is time we start offering some deterrance for trying to break our laws.

[ScottyBBadd]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?

It is a good idea in theroy.

[Malice]

Seems like a good plan to me. Fair, but firm. I don't think you go far enough after the 6 months though. I think it is time we start punishing illegals. I try to sneak into Mexico and get caught, I spend a few years in prison south of the border. I don't just get sent home to try again. It is time we start offering some deterrance for trying to break our laws.

That is a good thought.
But I have a hard time thinking that the US should start jailing people for that.

I honestly think, that if we force the employer to assist in the process, this will minimize that number of people in the US who are not registered. Those that then are still illegal, will eventually be found when they goto the hospital or goto the police.

[Anguissette1979]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?

That's just about where I stand, Malice. We are a country built of and by immigrants and we don't want to discourage that but we want it to be legal and to help everyone integrate (learn english, etc...). My very own significant other will hopefully be legalling immigrating from England in the next couple of years (he's here on a student visa now). :up:

[Spidey-Bat]

Seems like a good plan to me. Fair, but firm. I don't think you go far enough after the 6 months though. I think it is time we start punishing illegals. I try to sneak into Mexico and get caught, I spend a few years in prison south of the border. I don't just get sent home to try again. It is time we start offering some deterrance for trying to break our laws.

Prisons are overcrowded as it is.


Malice, as for your plan I like it. The 5K fine seems a bit hefty though I don't know what it costs to legally immigrate to the US.

[Matt]

That is a good thought.
But I have a hard time thinking that the US should start jailing people for that.

I honestly think, that if we force the employer to assist in the process, this will minimize that number of people in the US who are not registered. Those that then are still illegal, will eventually be found when they goto the hospital or goto the police.

If thats the case, then we need to start actively investigating companies for hiring illegals. Start issuing real fines for it (multi-million dollars). We need to show them consequences. Otherwise they will have nothing to lose and everything to gain by hiring illegal immigrants. Being as most of our politicans are in big business' pockets, it doesn't seem practical so I think we need to start showing real penalties to people sneaking it.

[Anguissette1979]

If thats the case, then we need to start actively investigating companies for hiring illegals. Start issuing real fines for it (multi-million dollars). We need to show them consequences. Otherwise they will have nothing to lose and everything to gain by hiring illegal immigrants. Being as most of our politicans are in big business' pockets, it doesn't seem practical so I think we need to start showing real penalties to people sneaking it.

I'll be curious to see how Arizona's plan pans out... :up:

[Matt]

Prisons are overcrowded as it is.


Malice, as for your plan I like it. The 5K fine seems a bit hefty though I don't know what it costs to legally immigrate to the US.

I'm pretty sure its significantly more.

As for prisons being overcrowded. Perhaps we should make it a military issue and put them in military prisons (which aren't as coddling as state and federal pens and don't suffer the same overcrowding issue). After all, what they are doing constitutes an invasion in the most technical of senses.

[Malice]

If thats the case, then we need to start actively investigating companies for hiring illegals. Start issuing real fines for it (multi-million dollars). We need to show them consequences. Otherwise they will have nothing to lose and everything to gain by hiring illegal immigrants. Being as most of our politicans are in big business' pockets, it doesn't seem practical so I think we need to start showing real penalties to people sneaking it.

I would imagine, while the border is being secured, the process would go out to employers that you have illegals or something, warning them, that on "future January 1 day" you will be fined $x for every illegal. (the fine will be hefty, a fine equal to have paid the ENTIRE salary of a US citizen for the position) or something of that nature.

Then on the January 1, they start the random selections. This could be part of the Tax Filing, or something of that nature. I cant answer to that as there are filing issues I simply have no experience to even comment on.

[Malice]

I'm pretty sure its significantly more.

As for prisons being overcrowded. Perhaps we should make it a military issue and put them in military prisons (which aren't as coddling as state and federal pens and don't suffer the same overcrowding issue). After all, what they are doing constitutes an invasion in the most technical of senses.

Legally, we cant do that, as they are not part of the Military...
We dont want the Military to get involved in policing the people

[Manic]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?
I agree. The only real downside is that, if documentation is required for crossing the borders every time, we'll no longer have the ability to spontaneously drive to Tijuana at 2am on a Friday night after a few too many shots of Petrone and a dare.

Seems like a good plan to me. Fair, but firm. I don't think you go far enough after the 6 months though. I think it is time we start punishing illegals. I try to sneak into Mexico and get caught, I spend a few years in prison south of the border. I don't just get sent home to try again. It is time we start offering some deterrance for trying to break our laws.
I disagree. Our tax dollars already pay to keep prisoners comfortable (well, somewhat). By jailing the illegals, we'll have to pay higher taxes for the ever-growing prison population.

[Matt]

Legally, we cant do that, as they are not part of the Military...
We dont want the Military to get involved in policing the people

They are a foreign invasion force. Granted, it is sketchy at best...but you put a few hundred in a military prison and the others will certainly think twice before coming over.

[SapphirePrima]

I personally feel that if you're not trying to learn to read and write english then you shouldn't be here legally or illegally.

[oakzap425]

Why does it seem like this is strictly based on Mexican Illegal immigrants? I'm sure there are other immigrants here illegally. Cuba? Haiti?

[Matt]

I disagree. Our tax dollars already pay to keep prisoners comfortable (well, somewhat). By jailing the illegals, we'll have to pay higher taxes for the ever-growing prison population.

End the pointless war on drugs. The war on drugs is a war on drug addicts, not distributors. Make the penalty for possession simply probation and mandatory, self-funded rehab. Watch how quickly our prisons empty out.

[Kelly]

If you look at the population growth of the US, we are at a zero population growth as far as births.....

With an economy like ours, this is not a good thing.

Looking at population pyramids as an example......when a population pyramid becomes inverted, this means your elderly population is MUCH larger than the birthrate.....in an industrial society you need a large labor pool.......in a zero population growth, or negative population growth this labor pool is depeleted in a major way.......immigration is the increase in our population that is needed to keep us from that inverted population pyramid, and in the long run, will help those of you that plan on living off of your social security benefits.......because you certainly are not going to be able to rely on the grandchildren, that are not being born.

Immigration (LEGAL) is extremely important to our economy......and even a large % of (ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS) are paying taxes because they do not want to get caught......

With all of that said......

In registering, are you saying........simply register to work?

Or, begin the process to become a citizen.

If it is to become a citizen, then the problem is not a "chance" being given.....but the cost of that chance.......these people do not have $20,000 to $30,000 it takes, or the 10 to 15 years to become a citizen.

If its registering to work.......then what are the restrictions to their VISA???

Also, those people that don't have the 20,000 to 30,000 also don't have the
5,000...........they are here for a reason.........they are poor. They get the jobs they do, because they are not skilled labor....$5,000 does not come easy to someone making minimum wage, sending money home to feed a family, and usually an extended family.


This is a problem that has no easy solution, because there are so many factors involved......its a tough sell.

[SapphirePrima]

Why does it seem like this is strictly based on Mexican Illegal immigrants? I'm sure there are other immigrants here illegally. Cuba? Haiti?
The Mexican immigrants are the main problem.

[Spidey-Bat]

If it is to become a citizen, then the problem is not a "chance" being given.....but the cost of that chance.......these people do not have $20,000 to $30,000 it takes, or the 10 to 15 years to become a citizen.

If its registering to work.......then what are the restrictions to their VISA???

Also, those people that don't have the 20,000 to 30,000 also don't have the
5,000...........they are here for a reason.........they are poor. They get the jobs they do, because they are not skilled labor....$5,000 does not come easy to someone making minimum wage, sending money home to feed a family, and usually an extended family.

If they don't have the money, they shouldn't be here to begin with. Poverty doesn't justify illegal immigration.

[oakzap425]

The Mexican immigrants are the main problem.

Poor Mexican's. Can't catch a break.

[Malice]

Why does it seem like this is strictly based on Mexican Illegal immigrants? I'm sure there are other immigrants here illegally. Cuba? Haiti?

I live in Texas and honestly, its usually those from Latin American countries.
That being said, this law, goes for ALL illegals, regardless of country of origin, as it simply does not matter. They are illegal, therefore they fall in this category.

[Kelly]

If they don't have the money, they shouldn't be here to begin with. Poverty doesn't justify illegal immigration.



Well damn, if that were the case, then I wouldn't be here........because I'm a descendant of

*Poor Irish family...
*French running from the law...
*Danish honest folk....
*Poor Cherokee....

One of the biggest reason for ANY immigration to this country comes from an economic basis....and in many cases, there finances are tied up, especially in their first few years here.....

[Malice]

If you look at the population growth of the US, we are at a zero population growth as far as births.....

With an economy like ours, this is not a good thing.

Looking at population pyramids as an example......when a population pyramid becomes inverted, this means your elderly population is MUCH larger than the birthrate.....in an industrial society you need a large labor pool.......in a zero population growth, or negative population growth this labor pool is depeleted in a major way.......immigration is the increase in our population that is needed to keep us from that inverted population pyramid, and in the long run, will help those of you that plan on living off of your social security benefits.......because you certainly are not going to be able to rely on the grandchildren, that are not being born.

Immigration (LEGAL) is extremely important to our economy......and even a large % of (ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS) are paying taxes because they do not want to get caught......

With all of that said......

In registering, are you saying........simply register to work?

Or, begin the process to become a citizen.

If it is to become a citizen, then the problem is not a "chance" being given.....but the cost of that chance.......these people do not have $20,000 to $30,000 it takes, or the 10 to 15 years to become a citizen.

If its registering to work.......then what are the restrictions to their VISA???

Also, those people that don't have the 20,000 to 30,000 also don't have the
5,000...........they are here for a reason.........they are poor. They get the jobs they do, because they are not skilled labor....$5,000 does not come easy to someone making minimum wage, sending money home to feed a family, and usually an extended family.


This is a problem that has no easy solution, because there are so many factors involved......its a tough sell.

As far as registering. This is a way they can work legally. They are in the books, and can be taxed effectively. Granted, some are paid in cash, and the IRS will assist in dealing with that. They can work out a payment plan.

I understand those that are here illegally, they are generally on the poorer side of the economic scale. The fine is really a penalty telling them they came here the wrong way.

As far as the population growth, I have no problem bringing in more immigrants, as long as they come in legally, I am all for it.

[SapphirePrima]

If they don't have the money, they shouldn't be here to begin with. Poverty doesn't justify illegal immigration.
But they can't make money in their own countries. So they should stay where they are and live in poverty, while they can come here and live in somewhat better conditions illegally?

These people aren't choosing to live in poverty they are born into it.

[Mr Sparkle]

Seems like a good plan to me. Fair, but firm. I don't think you go far enough after the 6 months though. I think it is time we start punishing illegals. I try to sneak into Mexico and get caught, I spend a few years in prison south of the border. I don't just get sent home to try again. It is time we start offering some deterrance for trying to break our laws.

actually, that's only in the southern borders, and there's no "prison term" there's deportation, immediate deportation, this only started because there was pressure from the US to stop migration from other southern countries.

if YOU try to sneak into Mexico all you have to do is walk across the Border because they don't ask for ID when coming in from the states.

so, uh....yeah, stop making **** up :up:

[The Chairman]

My sentiments on immigration are in line with Ron Paul's. I researched him today and I think he has a pretty strong plan.

[Mr Sparkle]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?


a question though.
once these events are set in motion, do they have just the six months to come up with 5 grand?
it seems that people that go to the states send a lot of cash back to their home countries ( WOW you meant it's not just Mexico? :huh:...yes, that's what I mean) so maybe 5 grand in the course of six months is a little steep, they do work for far less ( in some instances ) than the average citizen and the average citizen has a hard time coming up with a disposable 5 k , but then I might be wrong.

[Taiwarriorz21]

Well if they would let Americans patrol the borders and snipe that would be nice but unfortunately the U.S. welcomes all the illegals to cheap work in America.

[Mr Sparkle]

Well damn, if that were the case, then I wouldn't be here........because I'm a descendant of


*Poor Cherokee....



then it's more your country than some other people:o

[Mr Sparkle]

Well if they would let Americans patrol the borders and snipe that would be nice but unfortunately the U.S. welcomes all the illegals to cheap work in America.

I hope you finish building those awesome walls you're doing in the Mexico border, that would finally make you safe.....except for....you know....Canada.


and miles upon miles of coastline.....but yeah...much safer.

[terry78]

It's obvious they come over because well, they're living in squaller over there, and if the land of milk and honey is right over the border and someone is promising that things will be better tenfold over here, then yes, you will risk deportation or getting killed to do it. Is it right? No. But that's never stopped desparate people before. I suspect as far as going by the book and taking time to do it, a lot of them just aren't educated enough to do so. I couldn't tell you any other valid reason.

[Mr Sparkle]

I couldn't tell you any other valid reason.

they aren't eligible.

[Spidey-Bat]

Well damn, if that were the case, then I wouldn't be here........because I'm a descendant of

*Poor Irish family...
*French running from the law...
*Danish honest folk....
*Poor Cherokee....

One of the biggest reason for ANY immigration to this country comes from an economic basis....and in many cases, there finances are tied up, especially in their first few years here.....

The excuse that these people are poor doesn't justify them being here illegally. What does that say to people who immigrate here legally?

[Mr Sparkle]

The Mexican immigrants are the main problem.

:huh: que?

[Mr Sparkle]

The excuse that these people are poor doesn't justify them being here illegally. What does that say to people who immigrate here legally?

"be glad you're not ****ing poor"?:huh:

[SapphirePrima]

:huh: que?
I don't why I laughed at this. :confused:

But they are the main ones who are crossing the the border illegally to come here. Not that there are others.

[Mr Sparkle]

I don't why I laughed at this. :confused:

But they are the main ones who are crossing the the border illegally to come here. Not that there are others.

nah.
Mexican immigrants are 50% or something like that of the whole Illegal immigrant thing, that when you factor in proximity and economic situation isn't really that surprising.
the rest are from south America and the rest of the world.
in fact, there's tons of Irish and Scottish illegal immigrants, but people don't care because they speak English.
go figure.
I mean, when you think about it, the fact that you're not from a third world nation, are able to afford a plane ticket and STILL choose to live in the US illegally should irk people more, but again...weird world.

[Kelly]

The excuse that these people are poor doesn't justify them being here illegally. What does that say to people who immigrate here legally?


Many of them will tell you that the cost of becoming a citizen.....something they wanted to do from day one............has depleted their savings to nothing......

Also, my remarks at the beginning of this thread, were not solely about illegal immigrants....in fact, I was actually talking more of those that are here legally, and have been working towards citizenship, some who have been waiting over a decade.

So don't read my posts with blinders on........read it with full understanding, that it is not JUST illegal immigrants that find it hard to become a citizen here..........those that are here legally find it costing them their savings plus, and many, many years.......paying lawyers the entire way.

[Spidey-Bat]

"be glad you're not ****ing poor"?:huh:

No. What it's saying is if you follow the rules, you have to pay. If you don't follow the rules, you don't pay a thing.

[terry78]

It depends on how you come across, more or less. You come across like you can afford to stay here, you can do it. You look like you're on the bottom rung of society, people will give you a double take. It's like getting into a country club. I'm sure umpteen Irish car bombers could come into the country, but because they would come off as upper middle class tourists it wouldn't be given a second look.

[Mr Sparkle]

No. What it's saying is if you follow the rules, you have to pay. If you don't follow the rules, you don't pay a thing.

except...if you die in process, but yeah, other than that?
SCORE!!!!

[Kelly]

It depends on how you come across, more or less. You come across like you can afford to stay here, you can do it. You look like you're on the bottom rung of society, people will give you a double take. It's like getting into a country club. I'm sure umpteen Irish car bombers could come into the country, but because they would come off as upper middle class tourists it wouldn't be given a second look.



Why ya pickin on the Irish..........................UH.............UH.. .....yeah you.......

[Malice]

a question though.
once these events are set in motion, do they have just the six months to come up with 5 grand?
it seems that people that go to the states send a lot of cash back to their home countries ( WOW you meant it's not just Mexico? :huh:...yes, that's what I mean) so maybe 5 grand in the course of six months is a little steep, they do work for far less ( in some instances ) than the average citizen and the average citizen has a hard time coming up with a disposable 5 k , but then I might be wrong.

They can work a payment plan with the IRS on this issue.

[Mr Sparkle]

They can work a payment plan with the IRS on this issue.

eh, then that sounds pretty fair.

[Obi-Ron]

Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people.

It's a matter of logistics, not conscience.

[Hotwire]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?
Throw in learn English, and I'm behind you all the way.

[Mr Sparkle]

it's right there.
Ironically.

[Hotwire]

it's right there.
Ironically.
That'll teach me to try and speed read.

[Matt]

Y'know Malice, the more I think on it, the more I realize one gleaming problem with your plan. The second you offer that six months to register, aren't you essentially opening our border to anyone who wants to come in for six months?

[Kelly]

Y'know Malice, the more I think on it, the more I realize one gleaming problem with your plan. The second you offer that six months to register, aren't you essentially opening our border to anyone who wants to come in for six months?

I think he's thinking more of, those that are already here....


Those that are coming in, have to have proper documentation according to his plan. The amnesty for 6 months is given to those already here.

[Matt]

I think he's thinking more of, those that are already here....


Those that are coming in, have to have proper documentation according to his plan. The amnesty for 6 months is given to those already here.

But whats to stop the new ones from just sneaking in and saying they have been here?

[Kelly]

But whats to stop the new ones from just sneaking in and saying they have been here?


His first line of his plan states better enforcment of the border......any plan worth its weight has to have much stronger border control.

You would have to have a sign up program for the registration, that co-exists with a STRONG BLOCK ON THE BORDERS, after the registration date is passed for those in the country.....ANYONE without the registration is taken into custody as he stated in his plan......anyone found crossing the border, is deported immediately.

[Mr Sparkle]

But whats to stop the new ones from just sneaking in and saying they have been here?

reality?

[Malice]

His first line of his plan states better enforcment of the border......any plan worth its weight has to have much stronger border control.

Correct.
The entire plan only goes into effect once border security is REALLY in effect.
Simple as that.

[Mr Sparkle]

a question.
anyone actually seen the current border control?
because I see it everyday and it seems excessive.

[Kelly]

Excessive doesn't always mean efficient.

[Malice]

His first line of his plan states better enforcment of the border......any plan worth its weight has to have much stronger border control.

You would have to have a sign up program for the registration, that co-exists with a STRONG BLOCK ON THE BORDERS, after the registration date is passed for those in the country.....ANYONE without the registration is taken into custody as he stated in his plan......anyone found crossing the border, is deported immediately.

Correct.
borders get secure, and then the registrations are done after that.

[Mr Sparkle]

Excessive doesn't always mean efficient.

good point.
but then I think enforced borders are useless really.
weird.

[Docker2.0]

Malice, I like your plan on immagration, compared to the one of politicians. The whole"putting a microchip in their hand to see if they are illegal or legal" is to mark of the beastish like for my approval.

[Kelly]

good point.
but then I think enforced borders are useless really.
weird.

I kind of agree with you on this point......immigration, at least from Mexico....is a two fold process............we have to enforce the borders, whether it seems fruitless or not, we can't have open borders north or south of the US, the world is just not one where that can happen......AND Mexico has to work, much harder on their economy, they have to build a stronger middle class, and clean out their political process, it sucks.....They have a strong base to work from....they are moving in a positive direction, they just need to work harder.

Honestly, its a hell of an uphill climb, but it can be done.

[Darthphere]

I really do like Malice's plan, except for the whole requiring to speak and write English part. I mean, if Taiwarriorz can get away with butchering the English language, so should illegals.

[Malice]

I really do like Malice's plan, except for the whole requiring to speak and write English part. I mean, if Taiwarriorz can get away with butchering the English language, so should illegals.

Honestly....I have a hard time understanding why someone coming here to live, and work, refuses to learn the language. I mean if I went to Germany, I would learn the language to speak to the locals.

I find it a sign of respect.

My wife is an Apartment Manager. She gets alot of people coming in asking if she speaks English. When she says no, they ask if someone else does. She says no again. Then they speak perfect English. I find this disrespectful.

[Darthphere]

Honestly....I have a hard time understanding why someone coming here to live, and work, refuses to learn the language. I mean if I went to Germany, I would learn the language to speak to the locals.

I find it a sign of respect.

My wife is an Apartment Manager. She gets alot of people coming in asking if she speaks English. When she says no, they ask if someone else does. She says no again. Then they speak perfect English. I find this disrespectful.

Well you have a wrong perspective on things, it's not like they come over here and are telling all their friends " I will never speak English ever!" It's more complicated than that, but of course, you can continue believing it's a sign of disrespect or whatever.

[Malice]

Well you have a wrong perspective on things, it's not like they come over here and are telling all their friends " I will never speak English ever!" It's more complicated than that, but of course, you can continue believing it's a sign of disrespect or whatever.

That may be.
I understand people wanting to speak their own language...Dont assume we all speak it too here in the US.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Greetings all, I wanted to post my views on Immigration.

I think the first things we need to do, before everything else, is enforce the US borders. Enfore immigration laws. Noone gets in without proper documentation.

The next thing I think, some would clasify as a form of Amnesty. Unfortunately, we cant in all good conscience deport 12 million people. I say we do the following.

1) Set a date (after the borders are effectively secured) of 6 months where are immigrants are required to contact the Immigration Offices, and register. This registration gives them a valid ID. They are required to state where they came from and how long they have been here. They are to pay a 5K fine for being here illegally. They are gaurented 5 years to be in the country.
At the end of those 5 years, they must learn to read and write English. if they dont learn English, the 5 year visa, is pulled, and the immigrant is deported.

2) At the end of the 6 months, the free registration ends. Then, any illegal found gets deported, simple as that. This means, if you get pulled over by a cop, you get your info run. You go to a hospital, you get your info run. Basically, when an illegal immigrant gets deported when they are discovered. We wont go after them, they will "be found thru normal means."

Also, at the end of these 6 months, companies are required to verify that their employees are Legal. If they are not, the company will significantly fined. This will force the companies to get their illegal immigrant to register and get into the system.

Immigration is a really tough thing. We must enforce our immigration, and be humane about it. If we give them a chance to register, without fear of being deported, the will.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?

I like your ideas Malice. Its a nice approach to something the politicians seem afraid of even mentioning. The system you have devised looks quite sound. There's not much I can say on such a delicate subject, being that I'm naught but a college freshman with his fall semester behind him. But this way everyone is happy.

[Malice]

I like your ideas Malice. Its a nice approach to something the politicians seem afraid of even mentioning. The system you have devised looks quite sound. There's not much I can say on such a delicate subject, being that I'm naught but a college freshman with his fall semester behind him. But this way everyone is happy.

Thanks.
The issue as you said, is a sticky issue.
My solution is a realistic one. Obviously there are some small issues that someone only involved in the process can forsee...

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

For the matter of learning English, I suggest your plan mention it as a "language of business" you know, for those too outraged to figure that out for themselves.

[ANTOINE X]

I have a solution. Girls In. Guys don't f****n move. :grin:

[Malice]

For the matter of learning English, I suggest your plan mention it as a "language of business" you know, for those too outraged to figure that out for themselves.

Yeah, I mentioned that to my wife, she laughed.

[hippie_hunter]

Personally, I feel that we need to target the employers who are completely willing to hire illegals more than the immigrants who come here to make a better living for themselves and their families.

[Kelly]

Personally, I feel that we need to target the employers who are completely willing to hire illegals more than the immigrants who come here to make a better living for themselves and their families.

That would definitely have to be a major proponent of the program.

[ANTOINE X]

seriously I think this all crap and hypocrite of Americans to be rough on immigrations on Mexicans mostly. Cause when they need them for cheap labor nobody complains now that there s china doing the dirty job & and the high tech job they push Mexican away:whatever: