Discuss: The Minute Men

[Malice]

I thought I would throw a political topic out not actually part of the election and candidates.

What do you think of the Minute Men?

[Malice]

What do you think of the Minute Men?

Personally, I think they are filling a gap the Government has failed to do.

From what I know of, not anyone can simply join, and them BAMN, they are out on the line. They actually have to undergo training in observation and avoidance of all contact.

They are simply there, reporting individuals that are crossing the border illegally.
if the Govt would have this covered, they would go home.

[The Senator]

The Minute Men, in my opinion, is a group of racist vigilantes who don't care one bit about the national security of our country. They're more concerned with the fact that Mexicans are coming over here illegally. If Canadians were illegally entering our country and taking our jobs, they certainly wouldn't go to the Canadian border and hunt them down.

This organization, and the entire debate over illegal immigration, is race motivated. The Minute Men has scapegoated an entire race of people, and I don't think they benefit the public good at all.

[Lobster Charlie]

The difference between Mexican and Canadian in this case is that Canadian culture isn't that far removed from American culture. Both countries mostly speak English as their predominant language. Mexico, on the other hand, is considered more foreign since the majority of the illegals are poor and more uneducated, and typically don't speak the language. They are much easier to label as "aliens."

I know race does play a part here, but I really think it's a class and language barrier issue. People feel like their standard and quality of life is at risk of being diminished.

[Denny67]

The Minute Men, in my opinion, is a group of racist vigilantes who don't care one bit about the national security of our country. They're more concerned with the fact that Mexicans are coming over here illegally. If Canadians were illegally entering our country and taking our jobs, they certainly wouldn't go to the Canadian border and hunt them down.

This organization, and the entire debate over illegal immigration, is race motivated. The Minute Men has scapegoated an entire race of people, and I don't think they benefit the public good at all.

Well, since Canadians are not flooding over the boarder taking American jobs (as you put it) there is no real way of proving that this is in any way "race motivated."

But hey it sounds really provocative. :whatever:

[The Senator]

Well, since Canadians are not flooding over the boarder taking American jobs (as you put it) there is no real way of proving that this is in any way "race motivated."

But hey it sounds really provocative. :whatever:

No. People have made this a white versus Hispanic issue. I have people who call into my office every day and say that they want to lob grenades at rafts coming from Cuba, or shoot every Mexican who crosses the border. I think that's completely ignorant. That ignorance has led the majority of anti-immigrant Americans to think that every Hispanic person they see on the street is an illegal alien. It has definitely contributed to anti-Hispanic sentiments in this country, and if you deny that, you're blind to the social problems plaguing American society today.

[Lobster Charlie]

I think it cuts both ways. During the protests in May of 2006, where loads of latinos decided not to work that day, they were in downtown Los Angeles waving Mexican flags. If someone wants to be a part of this country, why would they wave the flag of another nation?

[MaskedManJRK]

The difference between Mexican and Canadian in this case is that Canadian culture isn't that far removed from American culture. Both countries mostly speak English as their predominant language. Mexico, on the other hand, is considered more foreign since the majority of the illegals are poor and more uneducated, and typically don't speak the language. They are much easier to label as "aliens."

I know race does play a part here, but I really think it's a class and language barrier issue. People feel like their standard and quality of life is at risk of being diminished.

Plus I'm sure many of the Canadians think, "S**t, we got decriminalized weed and health insurance--they should be trying to cross our border!" :o

Seriously, I love how in the beginning (not sure if they do this more now) the Minute Men said they patrol the border for "terrorists" when the terrorists who came into the country do destroy the WTC crossed from Canada. Either they never actually read anything on 9/11, or they just want a good excuse to shoot at something and they thought people would except it.

[The Senator]

I think it cuts both ways. During the protests in May of 2006, where loads of latinos decided not to work that day, they were in downtown Los Angeles waving Mexican flags. If someone wants to be a part of this country, why would they wave the flag of another nation?

Why should someone be forced to give up their national pride? And on top of that, why shouldn't they wave the flag of their home country, considering they had become a national scapegoat overnight?

[SuBe]

I think it cuts both ways. During the protests in May of 2006, where loads of latinos decided not to work that day, they were in downtown Los Angeles waving Mexican flags. If someone wants to be a part of this country, why would they wave the flag of another nation?
This is a great point.


I personally believe that the Minute Men are there ONLY because our government and the Mexican Government has failed to do anything about the Illegal Criminals coming into this country. The MM do not engage the Illegals, only call Officials to come and deal with them. They are Patriots doing the job for all of America. They are doing a service.

The Problem with Illegals is not a race issue, it is both an Economic and Criminal Issue. We have a legal immigration process. They should respect that, and not bypass our customs and legalities. Economically they are a burden, both making money and sending it to their home countries: taking that money out of our economy, and Socially: like Medical and Educational Services, not also to count Prisons. They are a burden, costing us more and more every year, and not contributing to our society. Only to the betterment of their native countries.

To me, it doesn't matter if it is the Canadian or Mexican Boarder, these people do not belong here. If they wish to join, respect our laws and do it legally. And for your information: 80% of all Illegal Criminal Aliens in this country are Mexican, 20% are other.

[Figs]

Why should someone be forced to give up their national pride? And on top of that, why shouldn't they wave the flag of their home country, considering they had become a national scapegoat overnight?


Whatever. If you want to be a citizen of another country you need to adopt to their flag since your basically adopting to their laws and way of life.

It doesn't mean you can't have pride for being a Mexican and still have your Mexican flag. It's just those morons went about it the wrong way. It just got people pissed off and rightfully I might add.

It was shoving their countries flag in our face as if saying they only want to come over to exploit our country rather than embrace it for the freedoms they can have.

[Malice]

I find it funny, that Immigration was actually not to high on the list of issues till in 2007 they here in Houston boycotted and striked, not going to work, and marched down the streets with Mexican flags saying "We Owe Them"

Then they just ended up pissing off those people that were quiet about it.
This little strike they had, just shot themselves in the foot.

[The Senator]

I find it funny, that Immigration was actually not to high on the list of issues till in 2007 they here in Houston boycotted and striked, not going to work, and marched down the streets with Mexican flags saying "We Owe Them"

Then they just ended up pissing off those people that were quiet about it.
This little strike they had, just shot themselves in the foot.

Actually, it was high on the list of issues in 2005, when President Bush addressed the nation about the ongoing border crisis. Two days later, there was a Day Without Immigrants rally across America. Whatever happened in Houston was two years later.

[Malice]

I find the striking and picketting of a people that are not legally here to be frankly put, a joke.

I am a humane person, but I dont owe them everything.

I have actually (and my wife) dealt with a few illegals here in Houston and there is between at least the few I have talked to (assuming they spoke English) thought that I owed them something.

This is maddening. My wife had an illegal worker working for her at her apartment complex arguing with her. He was demanding that she owned him more money (when he was a crappy employee) and that my wife just owed her more. I couldnt understand the attitude. It really pissed me off.

If stuff like that keeps happening, I might get to the point of ship them all out and have them come back legally.

I hate to thing I might get there...

[Denny67]

No. People have made this a white versus Hispanic issue. I have people who call into my office every day and say that they want to lob grenades at rafts coming from Cuba, or shoot every Mexican who crosses the border. I think that's completely ignorant. That ignorance has led the majority of anti-immigrant Americans to think that every Hispanic person they see on the street is an illegal alien. It has definitely contributed to anti-Hispanic sentiments in this country, and if you deny that, you're blind to the social problems plaguing American society today.

If the people that are illegally coming to this country are primarily Hispanics how you address the issue without calling them Hispanics?
It is not a race issue it is people being descriptive of where the majority of the problem is originating. Just because you have had contact with a few bad apples does not mean that everyone in this country that wants to see our laws enforced by our government is a bigot.

That is like saying, because you have a few bad cops around the country that “all cops are bad.” I always find it amusing how people try to force their perspective to fit the national picture. As for you “anti Hispanic” claim. I have yet to see any news of hate crimes against Hispanics, any mistreatment of Hispanics come to light as of yet. So where you are getting all of the” social problems plaguing American society today where Hispanics are concerned is a real mystery.

BTW I live in Las Vegas where about 50% of the population is Hispanic and none of that is happening here. I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “

[Mr Sparkle]

This is a great point.


I personally believe that the Minute Men are there ONLY because our government and the Mexican Government has failed to do anything about the Illegal Criminals coming into this country. The MM do not engage the Illegals, only call Officials to come and deal with them. They are Patriots doing the job for all of America. They are doing a service.

actually no.
the minutemen are misguided, often racially motivated individuals who have a little too much time on their hands and take out their frustration on illegal immigrants.
the "MM" have been charged many a time with "engaging" illegals, and in Arizona alone mysterious border deaths increased with Minutemen presence in the mid 2004 period.
some of their leaders, like the one in Texas, I can't remember his name, but he started "ranch rescue" have spewed racist propaganda, and in a couple of cases were arrested for carrying weapons.
why are you carrying weapons if you don't plan to engage the illegal immigrants.
also, I would love to hear how the Mexican government could stop illegal immigration.

The Problem with Illegals is not a race issue, it is both an Economic and Criminal Issue. We have a legal immigration process. They should respect that, and not bypass our customs and legalities. Economically they are a burden, both making money and sending it to their home countries: taking that money out of our economy, and Socially: like Medical and Educational Services, not also to count Prisons. They are a burden, costing us more and more every year, and not contributing to our society. Only to the betterment of their native countries.

well, economists would disagree with you.
there were studies made and the results showed that Illegal immigrants had a net positive effect of 1% on the economy.
negligible sure, but it's a positive effect and this flies in the face of the rationale that illegal immigrants hurt the economy.
simply put, this study was made by economists not the "center for immigration studies" ( hahaha homo-contraceptivus or whatever the founding nutjob calls us citizens) and the rest of your post is subjective uninformed pap.
how exactly is someone that lives and works in the US not contributing to the economy?
there are people that make tons of money and have houses abroad, they work here for six months and spent the rest on foreign countries, so?
are you telling me that paying rent and buying goods and services doesn't stimulate your economy?
please.
read up on Californian economy and it's sectors of dependence, read about the effect of increased border control for legal tourists after 9-11 and it's disastrous effects on border economies on the US side all the way up the golden state with consequences being felt all the way up in san francisco.
and as your largest economy goes...so goes the nation.
I keep hearing that "they are a burden" why the **** do they keep finding jobs then?
why exactly? if they are indeed such a burden why are so many jobs still available, and why are illegal immigrants employed at such high percentages comparatively speaking?
sorry bu it is very much a "race issue" and I have seen it unfold.

To me, it doesn't matter if it is the Canadian or Mexican Boarder, these people do not belong here. If they wish to join, respect our laws and do it legally. And for your information: 80% of all Illegal Criminal Aliens in this country are Mexican, 20% are other.

yeah, that's completely wrong.
65% to 70% of illegal immigrants are HISPANIC out of which 45% to 50% are Mexican.
so theres actually about 50% to 55% that "are the other", so again, it is very much a "race issue"

[Mr Sparkle]

BTW I live in Las Vegas where about 50% of the population is Hispanic and none of that is happening here. I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “

I doubt that's true.
mostly because the people that immigrate legally understand that the people illegally crossing the border do so out of desperation and need, not some criminal impulse to "cut in line".
so, yeah I seriously doubt that, because I have much more Hispanic friends than you ( I guarantee it) that happen to be US citizens and they are far from pissed off.

[Mr Sparkle]

wow sooooo patriotic. (http://www.minutemenunvarnished.com/minutesite/sd.html)

[Mr Sparkle]

I find it funny, that Immigration was actually not to high on the list of issues till in 2007 they here in Houston boycotted and striked, not going to work, and marched down the streets with Mexican flags saying "We Owe Them"

Then they just ended up pissing off those people that were quiet about it.
This little strike they had, just shot themselves in the foot.

if I remember correctly the march was for immigration reform, it had nothing to do with was or was not "owed" right?
also, It's hilarious that people assume that all the people in the protest were illegal immigrants, many were simply Hispanic.

[Denny67]

I doubt that's true.
mostly because the people that immigrate legally understand that the people illegally crossing the border do so out of desperation and need, not some criminal impulse to "cut in line".
so, yeah I seriously doubt that, because I have much more Hispanic friends than you ( I guarantee it) that happen to be US citizens and they are far from pissed off.

Do you.. really.... you guarantee it? :whatever:

Translation = I don’t like what I am hearing so I am going to claim you are lying and apply my own theory without any facts to back any of it up. CLASSIC!

Tell you what… contact Lupe Moreno of the Santa Ana Minuteman Project or Anti-illegal-immigration activist Andy Ramirez or the 32% of Latinos in the Gallup poll in June, who believe immigration levels should be decreased, and three in 10 believe that the government should not make it easier for undocumented immigrants to become citizens. You go right ahead and claim that they are bigots that hates Hispanics.


All records are of public record.. look em up.

Nope… no Hispanics are pissed. LMAO

sorry still laughing.

[Mr Sparkle]

Do you.. really.... you guarantee it? :whatever:

Translation = I don’t like what I am hearing so I am going to claim you are lying and apply my own theory without any facts to back any of it up. CLASSIC!

nope.
just means I'm Mexican.:cwink:see, that's a fact.
and I have more Hispanic Friends than you, simply by laws of average, also, I live in a border town, so most of them are US citizens.
so....uh....there you go.


Tell you what… contact Lupe Moreno of the Santa Ana Minuteman Project or Anti-illegal-immigration activist Andy Ramirez or the 32% of Latinos in the Gallup poll in June, who believe immigration levels should be decreased, and three in 10 believe that the government should not make it easier for undocumented immigrants to become citizens. You go right ahead and claim that they are bigots that hates Hispanics.

well actually you claimed

"I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “"

I claimed you were lying, and I still do. since even though the Gallup poll information is real and I already knew about it, this has nothing to do with the argument you presented, no matter how much you try to connect it.




All records are of public record.. look em up.

Nope… no Hispanics are pissed. LMAO

sorry still laughing.

I never said "no" Hispanics are pissed.
I said you lied when you said a significant number or Hispanics were pissed, let alone, you implied that these people were migrants, to an extent, Mexicans even.
I called bull**** on that. and again, still do.
because wanting to reduce immigration, both legal and illegal seems a far cry from "being pissed".
of course you enter the realm of the catch 22 since you deem 32% a significant number, then the remaining 48% of US citizens in the gallup poll you mention are also quite "significant".


oops.


but yeah, keep laughing.
seems like the kind of thing people like you do.
laugh after being proven wrong ( and liars to boot) kind of sand, but...whatever.

[The Senator]

If the people that are illegally coming to this country are primarily Hispanics how you address the issue without calling them Hispanics?
It is not a race issue it is people being descriptive of where the majority of the problem is originating. Just because you have had contact with a few bad apples does not mean that everyone in this country that wants to see our laws enforced by our government is a bigot.

That is like saying, because you have a few bad cops around the country that “all cops are bad.” I always find it amusing how people try to force their perspective to fit the national picture. As for you “anti Hispanic” claim. I have yet to see any news of hate crimes against Hispanics, any mistreatment of Hispanics come to light as of yet. So where you are getting all of the” social problems plaguing American society today where Hispanics are concerned is a real mystery.

BTW I live in Las Vegas where about 50% of the population is Hispanic and none of that is happening here. I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “

I didn't say this was an issue of terminology pertaining to illegal aliens. I said this was an issue of race, and specifically when it comes to people who aren't here illegally. People are starting to attack Hispanics who aren't illegal aliens, who are here legally or on a student visa-- and it needs to stop. That's my problem with this whole thing. It's turned into a full-fledged assault against all Hispanics, not just illegal aliens.

[LuiECuomo]

I didn't say this was an issue of terminology pertaining to illegal aliens. I said this was an issue of race, and specifically when it comes to people who aren't here illegally. People are starting to attack Hispanics who aren't illegal aliens, who are here legally or on a student visa-- and it needs to stop. That's my problem with this whole thing. It's turned into a full-fledged assault against all Hispanics, not just illegal aliens.

I really don't think that's true at all.

[The Senator]

I really don't think that's true at all.

I do. Here at my campus, we have a Spanish-speaking cleaning crew who are legal residents of DC. One of the idiots on my floor who is staunchly against illegal immigration not only asked one of them to present a legal ID, but he called the University to complain that he felt we had hired illegals to clean the building. Yeah, the person he asked had been legally here since the late 1990s, and uses Spanish to communicate with her other Hispanic co-workers-- who are all here legally, because this university would lose its accreditation if they weren't.

[Denny67]

nope.
just means I'm Mexican.:cwink:see, that's a fact.
and I have more Hispanic Friends than you, simply by laws of average, also, I live in a border town, so most of them are US citizens.
so....uh....there you go.
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well actually you claimed

[/size]"I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “"

I claimed you were lying, and I still do. since even though the Gallup poll information is real and I already knew about it, this has nothing to do with the argument you presented, no matter how much you try to connect it.






I never said "no" Hispanics are pissed.
I said you lied when you said a significant number or Hispanics were pissed, let alone, you implied that these people were migrants, to an extent, Mexicans even.
I called bull**** on that. and again, still do.
because wanting to reduce immigration, both legal and illegal seems a far cry from "being pissed".
of course you enter the realm of the catch 22 since you deem 32% a significant number, then the remaining 48% of US citizens in the gallup poll you mention are also quite "significant".


oops.


but yeah, keep laughing.
seems like the kind of thing people like you do.
laugh after being proven wrong ( and liars to boot) kind of sand, but...whatever.

Well what I said verbatim was “I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “

Since you are obviously challenged with reading comprehension I will assist you. This means that out of the Hispanics I know (which is a fair amount) many of them are unhappy with legal immigrants. They feel that they did a lot to get here and are happy they did. They feel that it is unfair that they had to spend a significant amount of time and money to make the move here and gain citizenship and others who came here illegally may have to a chance to just get grandfathered in. The range in emotion ranged from “it is just not fair” to “I am pissed”

So now we go to the fact that you cannot prove I am lying. It is just the sole bullet in your gun to try and discredit someone who disagrees with you. I have given you number which can be looked up via public record and names of Hispanics in Minutemen organization you are free to contact. Yet you still say I am lying once again with no way to back it up.

In spite of this you claim victory in our little discussion… what does that say about your credibility?

A lot I am afraid. In particular it says you have no qualms whatsoever to speak out on something and about someone you know nothing about.

Then again I am not surprised in the least. Pretty typical these days. When in doubt make just make ***** up right?

I am also well aware of the math involved in that poll. The remainder can range from condoning illegal immigration, to completely apathetic towards it with another complex line of varying reasons. The one fact that is in there is there are many Hispanic unhappy with it. So it is not entirely a race issue as was suggested above, which in case you forgot was whole point.

So yeah... still laughing here.

[Mr Sparkle]

Well what I said verbatim was “I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “

Since you are obviously challenged with reading comprehension I will assist you. This means that out of the Hispanics I know (which is a fair amount) many of them are unhappy with legal immigrants. They feel that they did a lot to get here and are happy they did. They feel that it is unfair that they had to spend a significant amount of time and money to make the move here and gain citizenship and others who came here illegally may have to a chance to just get grandfathered in. The range in emotion ranged from “it is just not fair” to “I am pissed”

So now we go to the fact that you cannot prove I am lying. It is just the sole bullet in your gun to try and discredit someone who disagrees with you. I have given you number which can be looked up via public record and names of Hispanics in Minutemen organization you are free to contact. Yet you still say I am lying once again with no way to back it up.

In spite of this you claim victory in our little discussion… what does that say about your credibility?

A lot I am afraid. In particular it says you have no qualms whatsoever to speak out on something and about someone you know nothing about.

Then again I am not surprised in the least. Pretty typical these days. When in doubt make just make ***** up right?

I am also well aware of the math involved in that poll. The remainder can range from condoning illegal immigration, to completely apathetic towards it with another complex line of varying reasons. The one fact that is in there is there are many Hispanic unhappy with it. So it is not entirely a race issue as was suggested above, which in case you forgot was whole point.

So yeah... still laughing here.

LOL....yeah, like a bunch of totally pissed off Hispanic friends.

but yeah, since you're so big on reading comprehension here, let's see my post.



I doubt that's true.
mostly because the people that immigrate legally understand that the people illegally crossing the border do so out of desperation and need, not some criminal impulse to "cut in line".
so, yeah I seriously doubt that, because I have much more Hispanic friends than you ( I guarantee it) that happen to be US citizens and they are far from pissed off.

so again.
I doubt that you have a significant number of Hispanic friends that are "just as pissed off as the evil white man" see? I don't see how providing me with names of Latino minutemen actually backs up your claim here, help me, as unlike you I'm not that good at "comprehending".
regardless of what you tried to spin it into.
also, I still call bull**** on it, because well, I know more legal immigrants than you ( not just because I'm Mexican, it's a long story) and because you were using your statement as backup for a larger point which was if the Illegal Immigrant issue had racial connotations to it, which it obviously does.

do I have more Hispanic friends than you?
uh...yes, I still guarantee it.

see, you're just backpedaling because you got caught in a difficult place, see this is what you answered when I told you I guaranteed I have more Hispanic friends than you.


Translation = I don’t like what I am hearing so I am going to claim you are lying and apply my own theory without any facts to back any of it up. CLASSIC!

so, you do see how my guarantee was valid.
now you're going on about reading comprehension?:huh: that has nothing to do with MY point here, I have more Hispanic friends than you.
that's a fact, no way to spin it into anything, sorry, here are your lovely parting gifts.

also, you forget to factor in the "significant" number ( in your view) of illegal immigrants coming from countries other than Mexico ( 50 % more or less, far more significant than not) whose origin is NEVER mentioned in the Illegal immigration debates...so yeah, I never said it was PURELY a race Issue.
but hey, for your benefit, this is what I said:

I doubt that's true.
mostly because the people that immigrate legally understand that the people illegally crossing the border do so out of desperation and need, not some criminal impulse to "cut in line".
so, yeah I seriously doubt that, because I have much more Hispanic friends than you ( I guarantee it) that happen to be US citizens and they are far from pissed off.

maybe you should take a big time off from laughing, you know, so that you can maybe learn to actually read, and perhaps appropriately respond to posts.

just a thought.:cwink:

[ShadowBoxing]

I tried caring about border security, but sadly, I can't. It's a non issue when this country has full employment and "illegals" are taking jobs no US citizens seem to want.

If you want to make me care about border security, let's talk about it in terms of keeping hostiles out of our country, not people trying to find menial work. I'd like to come to some compromise with people uplifting my economy.

Personally, I love the arguments against illegals. They're funny. My favorite is how Hispanics will soon outweight white people. People are concerned about this? Man, I can't wait to be a minority. I'm going to play the race card like it's going out of style.

[Arkady Rossovich]

I think the Minute Men is a service to America. The Government is too slow to do this,so the people have to do it themelfs. I would encourage such actions.

[Nivek]

I think they are just a bunch of bored Rednecks looking to justify their rage at some border invasion thats been going on for years. But then again, Border Guards are notoriously corrupt.

I dont like the idea of people coming to the United States and "skipping the line" because they dont want to follow the same system that many other American families and their forefathers had to go through to get here because they may get rejected, or put in money and time. It's a slap in the face to the system they say they want to be a part of. I have family that are only two generations removed from being immigrants, and this illegal immigration topic really shows me the lack in understanding American history and our mixes of culture that people on both sides of the extreme plainly dont understand about this issue.

To think that the majority of Hispanics citizens approve people sneaking in is pretty silly in itself. Why after their families came here through our immigration system, and showed respect to the Laws we have and our culture by learning the American language, want to give a free pass to those who just come here and break the law's their families followed and still speak in their native tounge in a place referred to as the melting pot? I hear stupid arguments here in Florida sometimes from the ignorant saying crap like "The spanish were here first" and I have to point out that the Hispanic culture embraced statehood and the American language.

[rdh007]

The Minute Men, in my opinion, is a group of racist vigilantes who don't care one bit about the national security of our country. They're more concerned with the fact that Mexicans are coming over here illegally. If Canadians were illegally entering our country and taking our jobs, they certainly wouldn't go to the Canadian border and hunt them down.

This organization, and the entire debate over illegal immigration, is race motivated. The Minute Men has scapegoated an entire race of people, and I don't think they benefit the public good at all.
I agree.

[Mr Sparkle]

To think that the majority of Hispanics citizens approve people sneaking in is pretty silly in itself. Why after their families came here through our immigration system, and showed respect to the Laws we have and our culture by learning the American language, want to give a free pass to those who just come here and break the law's their families followed and still speak in their native tounge in a place referred to as the melting pot? I hear stupid arguments here in Florida sometimes from the ignorant saying crap like "The spanish were here first" and I have to point out that the Hispanic culture embraced statehood and the American language.

and I would have to point out that "the Spanish" are from Spain.
however, why do I always hear this asinine argument about "lines" and skipping them?
seriously, are there people in the states that really think this is about some dudes that wanted to skip the process so they thought "hahaha! this death march through the desert sure beats paperwork!...and I get to be exploited once I get there! I'm SO clever!" :whatever: please.
the people crossing illegally seldom have the option to do so through the proper channel, I don't see how that is a "slap in the face" to anyone.
also, and perhaps for the last time.
you understand that it has nothing to do with "embracing the culture" and much more to do with the level of education you have right?
living in Tijuana my English is pretty flawless when spoken, but this has nothing to do with me "embracing" a culture.
it has to do however with where I lived from a young age, it's pretty proven that languages are much harder to learn when you're older, you're suggesting that people that barely have enough money to get to the states should have taken some classes?
you do understand that these people cross the border illegally as a last resort right? the vast majority ( I would dare say "a significant number") of the people that do cross illegally do so because the situation is so grim where they live.
frankly, faced with a decision like that, and the limited options they have, I dare say I'd do the same.
see, that's how your line of reasoning fails, it is silly to think that Hispanics in the US "approve" of illegal immigration.
however, it's downright Ignorant to think that the people that do cross illegally , do so to just "break the laws" or "get a free pass" frankly, it's ridiculous.
there's a debate to be had about the topic, but both sides involved seldom talk about the real issues and often get lost in talking points, in the case of the open borders side ( "we're all human" "nobody is illegal" etc) and ignorant perceptions from the part of the other side ( "it's all about Mexicans" "they are just a burden" "they don't WANT to learn our culture" "they want a free ride" etc) maybe when both sides realize the nature of the problem some progress will be made on the topic.

in the meantime, the minutemen are pathetic. sure, there are some rational individuals amongst them, but, you know what? there's rational logical individuals at stormfront.org, doesn't mean their movement is valid.
and yes, I'm making a very conscious parallel.

[Genesis 1.0]

I tried caring about border security, but sadly, I can't. It's a non issue when this country has full employment and "illegals" are taking jobs no US citizens seem to want.
.

I'm not even going to delve into this debate, but this statement is such a broadly used misconception.

Illegal immigrants aren't doing jobs Americans won't do, they're doing them for LESS than most Americans would. For the corrupt business owners that hire illegals, paying them so far below the minimum wage undercuts any legitimate American worker who can't and/or won't work for say, $2 an hour.

Nothing to do with the job itself in most cases but it's hard to even compare the two when people will basically kneecap the minimum wage for cheap labor.

[Denny67]

LOL....yeah, like a bunch of totally pissed off Hispanic friends.

but yeah, since you're so big on reading comprehension here, let's see my post.




so again.
I doubt that you have a significant number of Hispanic friends that are "just as pissed off as the evil white man" see? I don't see how providing me with names of Latino minutemen actually backs up your claim here, help me, as unlike you I'm not that good at "comprehending".
regardless of what you tried to spin it into.
also, I still call bull**** on it, because well, I know more legal immigrants than you ( not just because I'm Mexican, it's a long story) and because you were using your statement as backup for a larger point which was if the Illegal Immigrant issue had racial connotations to it, which it obviously does.

do I have more Hispanic friends than you?
uh...yes, I still guarantee it.

see, you're just backpedaling because you got caught in a difficult place, see this is what you answered when I told you I guaranteed I have more Hispanic friends than you.




so, you do see how my guarantee was valid.
now you're going on about reading comprehension?:huh: that has nothing to do with MY point here, I have more Hispanic friends than you.
that's a fact, no way to spin it into anything, sorry, here are your lovely parting gifts.

also, you forget to factor in the "significant" number ( in your view) of illegal immigrants coming from countries other than Mexico ( 50 % more or less, far more significant than not) whose origin is NEVER mentioned in the Illegal immigration debates...so yeah, I never said it was PURELY a race Issue.
but hey, for your benefit, this is what I said:
[/size][/font][/size][/font]

maybe you should take a big time off from laughing, you know, so that you can maybe learn to actually read, and perhaps appropriately respond to posts.

just a thought.:cwink:



Dude you are so full of crap and have like zero ability to formulate an argument on the issues. Too boot, you seriously confuse reading comprehension with me ignoring the ignorant parts of you posts.

That is what I am laughing at. :oldrazz:

I will explain…It is the easiest thing in the world to play the freaking race card because there is just no defense against it. Once someone is accused that is it. It almost as pathetic as you are calling me a liar... once again without anything to back it up. Yet you claim the stance of superiority as a Hispanic but really are unable to prove it, which I could have pointed out at any time. For all I know you are a 250lb white kid with an axe to grind and I could just as easily call you a liar at any point but instead choose to focus on the issue and not the unsubstantiated accusation that could be made. For this reason I am not going any further with this. It is pointless and I am not getting off subject here as badly as you would like me to.

You seem to want ignore of detract from the fact that the people who are coming across the border are in fact breaking the law. You may not agree with that law but it is in fact THE LAW. Last time checked our government was not supposed to cherry pick which law to enforce and which ones not to. Some people in this country that live in boarder states who obviously feel that they are not being represented by their government or law enforcement have done what is foreign to most people in this country today. Get off their asses and take care of it themselves.

The issue and the argument was and still is that this was somehow race driven and I have shown beyond a showdown of a doubt that it is not. I have not only documented statistical facts that there is a significant segment on the Latino population that upset about this but the names on individual persons of Hispanic origin who are the heads of Hispanic Minuteman groups. Call em, talk to em… in Spanish if you like. See what they have to say. Or are they just the Latino version of an Uncle Tom to you?
Will I will concede that yes there are there some bigots that will use this current climate to try and further their agenda? Yes I will. But as the country? No way. It is s total cop out and a tired argument.

The majority of infractions of individuals who comes across the border illegally are Mexicans from Mexico. I have been to Mexico a few times and it is not a third world country. I have been to Costco there and many places are like a lot of American towns. So let’s not get **** twisted and act they are fleeing a war ravaged country or a fleeing the boot of an evil dictator.
There are many like myself that feel that allowing this illegal immigration to continue is only aiding the problems in Mexico. As long as we continue to be a release valve the issue and reform that need to take place in Mexico will never happen. It is baffling to me the number of people who do see our place by not enforcing our immigration laws as enablers to corruption.

I would like to see (as would many) Mexico and Mexicans reach their full potential as a country and as a people. The region has huge potential for agriculture, oil, fishing, shipping, tourism, manufacturing.. on and on. That will never happen unless we stop letting the disgruntled just come here.

But hey, keep posting your ignorant **** like “duuuh you are a lying bigot.” In the end I am not the one making wild assumptions based on nothing but emotion and arrogance and making that the foundation of my argument… am I? :cwink:

[Lobster Charlie]

I see the issue as a small detail in a much grander picture. I truly believe the plan is to merge Canada, The U.S., and Mexico into one big nation. I'm sure most people here have read up on the plans for the North American Union, and the Amero? If not, I highly recommend googling both of those. It definitely puts things into perspective for me.

Mexico is a pretty well-off nation. They just have an extremely large disparity between rich and poor. There is also something resembling a caste system, and it's true that there aren't as many opportunities for the poor down there as compared to here in the states. I do think it's naive to suggest that they are simply taking jobs that Americans don't want to do---I'd rather phrase it as they are accepting *wages* that Americans can't accept in order to live a certain standard of living. I personally believe that American citizens deserve to live a reasonable lifestyle after a hard day's work.

As I've dealt first hand with illegal immigrants from Mexico, Central, and South America, I can also assure you that the stereotype of the "hard working illegal immigrant" is completely overblown. Some work hard, yes, as do most Americans. But don't think for a second that since someone is poor and desperate, they are better at their job than anyone else. They are just willing to work for what we consider to be less, and they consider to be much more than what they'd make in their country. In a lot of cases, you get what you pay for. The quality of homes built in the last 20-25 years isn't the greatest.

The illegals are being used as a scapegoat by some, yes, but they are also being used by big businesses and parts of our government. I believe they are allowing these people to flood our borders, and subsequently bring down our standard of living in order to make a massive "peasant class" by dissolving our middle class, that they can then control through further suspension of our civil liberties.

Like it or not, just about every nation in the world is held together by 2 of 3 things, and sometimes all: ethnicity, language, and religion. America is unique in that our Constitution and Bill of Rights is really the backbone of our nation, and, up until recently, the fact that the majority where White, English-speaking Christians. When the majority sees themselves slowly becoming the minority, they freak out. It's a natural human response.

When people see others that don't look like like themselves or speak their language, climbing over fences, sneaking through deserts and wading through rivers, their natural response is to feel like they are being invaded. When the government does nothing about this, they feel like they should take a stand.

Read up on The NAU and the Amero. Also, read up on what some children are being taught in Mexican schools about how they should view the United States. After that, I'd suggest reading about the history of Texas and how we got the Southwest. It's definitely skewed, depending on who's point of view you check out, but I found it particularly ironic that the Mexican government at the time wouldn't allow Americans to settle in their territory unless they converted Catholicism and adopted Spanish surnames.

[Mr Sparkle]

Dude you are so full of crap and have like zero ability to formulate an argument on the issues. Too boot, you seriously confuse reading comprehension with me ignoring the ignorant parts of you posts.

That is what I am laughing at. :oldrazz:


no, I'm merely pointing out how, so far you have


responded to an argument I never made
not been able to prove any portion of your point
are rather ignorant about the point you're trying to makebut yeah, I can see how you'd miss that and keep on laughing.

I will explain…It is the easiest thing in the world to play the freaking race card because there is just no defense against it. Once someone is accused that is it. It almost as pathetic as you are calling me a liar... once again without anything to back it up.

actually, it's very easy to disprove the race card.
say someone said I was racially motivated, I could disprove it easily.
see? maybe the reason you find it difficult is because you simply can't.
the fact that you're UNABLE to defend against it, doesn't mean it's indefensible.
it just underscores the fact you're out of your depth in this.
so far though I have backed up my argument quite well, and you on the other hand are so scared that you can't even respond to points I raise and have to try and shift the focus away from the fact you obviously have very little knowledge about the topic


Yet you claim the stance of superiority as a Hispanic but really are unable to prove it, which I could have pointed out at any time. For all I know you are a 250lb white kid with an axe to grind and I could just as easily call you a liar at any point but instead choose to focus on the issue and not the unsubstantiated accusation that could be made. For this reason I am not going any further with this. It is pointless and I am not getting off subject here as badly as you would like me to.

LOL, don't be pathetic. you're the only one here trying to deviate from the point, I even broke it down for you on the last post, you choose to not respond to the post and merely place it on top of yours to give the impression you are, but so far you have addressed none of the points raised in my responses to you.
so, no, you haven't "focussed on the issue" not by a long shot.



You seem to want ignore of detract from the fact that the people who are coming across the border are in fact breaking the law. You may not agree with that law but it is in fact THE LAW. Last time checked our government was not supposed to cherry pick which law to enforce and which ones not to. Some people in this country that live in boarder states who obviously feel that they are not being represented by their government or law enforcement have done what is foreign to most people in this country today. Get off their asses and take care of it themselves.

really? which part of my post implied that I wanted to ignore the fact that laws are being broken? which part of my posts so far has tried to detract from this fact? I'll bet you can't produce that portion, simply because I have kept calling them ILLEGAL immigrants and continuously said that they come here ILLEGALLY in fact I have focussed on the real reasons that they do, not just my perceptions of why, unlike yourself.
last time I checked, your government doesn't cherry pick the laws it enforces as evidenced by your border patrol ( which has always existed) so I don't really see how that is relevant to the discussion.
also, if you think harassing people outside of Home Depot while calling people that don't agree with you "traitors" "taking care of illegal immigration" then maybe it is I who should have been laughing from the start.

yeah, maybe if they wave their flags fast enough holding up the "don't thread on me" signs, the problem and causes will magically disappear.

The issue and the argument was and still is that this was somehow race driven and I have shown beyond a showdown of a doubt that it is not. I have not only documented statistical facts that there is a significant segment on the Latino population that upset about this but the names on individual persons of Hispanic origin who are the heads of Hispanic Minuteman groups. Call em, talk to em… in Spanish if you like. See what they have to say. Or are they just the Latino version of an Uncle Tom to you?
Will I will concede that yes there are there some bigots that will use this current climate to try and further their agenda? Yes I will. But as the country? No way. It is s total cop out and a tired argument.

I'm sorry, you showed something beyond a "showdown" of a doubt?
I hope you're not one of those "learn the language"cats because that would be downright Ironic.
you have so far proven nothing, the fact that in California there's Irish and Canadians and Koreans and Chinese and many others, here ILLEGALLY and the minutemen don't seem all that concerned about it ( why are they "cherry picking" which Illegals to target? aren't they ALL breaking the laws?)
kind of proves my point more than yours.
also, you have provided statistics that show that 32& of Hispanics in June ( Hispanics can include Puerto Ricans BTW) consider immigration reduction, far from the "pissed off" argument you presented.
also for your benefit here's a definition of "significant"

fairly large; "won by a substantial margin"

so if for you 32% instead of 68% is the "fairly large" number, there's really nothing we can do about that is there?:csad:
so again, there is a very strong racial element to this debate, simply because out of the 70% of Hispanic illegals about 50% are Mexicans and yet the Ire is seldom against anyone BUT Mexicans.
so....yeah.


The majority of infractions of individuals who comes across the border illegally are Mexicans from Mexico.

yes, but only to the tune of 55% so to someone like you that deems 32% significant 45% being ignored should kind of set off alarms in your head should it not?
also, when are Mexicans NOT from Mexico?:huh:


I have been to Mexico a few times and it is not a third world country. I have been to Costco there and many places are like a lot of American towns. So let’s not get **** twisted and act they are fleeing a war ravaged country or a fleeing the boot of an evil dictator.

wow, you heard that everyone? Denny's been to Costco IN Mexico.
and Denny feels that Mexico is NOT a third world country.
hey that's good enough for me, someone call the UN so they can stop calling us a third world country BY DEFINITION.
you understand what that means right Denny?
let me give you a hint, the amount of Costco stores is not involved.
see how my arguments come from fact and yours come from cursory observation?


There are many like myself that feel that allowing this illegal immigration to continue is only aiding the problems in Mexico. As long as we continue to be a release valve the issue and reform that need to take place in Mexico will never happen. It is baffling to me the number of people who do see our place by not enforcing our immigration laws as enablers to corruption.

:huh: problems in Mexico? what problems? we're not even a third world country for god sakes? we have freakin' Costco!!!!
however, I have always agreed with this, there are problems in Mexico that have to be addressed, some of them come from corruption in the high spheres of government, others come from being squeezed by more powerful nations *nudge, nudge, wink,wink* what's baffling to me is that the US government wants it both ways, they want to be able to exploit third world countries but they don't want to have any consequence to their actions.
I would challenge anyone to read about commercial and industrial relationships between the two countries and then come here arguing about "corruption" sure, it's a big part but also not the complete picture.

I would like to see (as would many) Mexico and Mexicans reach their full potential as a country and as a people. The region has huge potential for agriculture, oil, fishing, shipping, tourism, manufacturing.. on and on. That will never happen unless we stop letting the disgruntled just come here.

hmm, again, read up on commercial and industrial relationships with the states, read up on regulations and limitations put forth by the US government, sure, you might want to see "Mexicans reach their full potential" ( ahaha, sorry, it just made me snicker a bit) but it's not really up to you or I.
far larger players involved.


But hey, keep posting your ignorant **** like “duuuh you are a lying bigot.” In the end I am not the one making wild assumptions based on nothing but emotion and arrogance and making that the foundation of my argument… am I? :cwink:


you're not?

I have been to Mexico a few times and it is not a third world country. I have been to Costco there and many places are like a lot of American towns. So let’s not get **** twisted and act they are fleeing a war ravaged country or a fleeing the boot of an evil dictator.

never mind that organizations like the UN and others define Mexico as thrid world, it isn't because YOU say it isn't? seems like a "wild assumption" to me. and why is it not because Mexico looks like "most American towns" even though half the people in Mexico live in poverty and one fifth in EXTREME poverty and no, that doesn't mean they hit the slopes over the weekend.

http://www.skiportillo.com/fotos/img/mediana/extreme_snowboarding.jpg
"extreme poverty dude!!!!!!!!!!"

yeah, wild assumptions and arrogance are far from the foundation of your argument.

[Mr Sparkle]

Read up on The NAU and the Amero. Also, read up on what some children are being taught in Mexican schools about how they should view the United States. After that, I'd suggest reading about the history of Texas and how we got the Southwest. It's definitely skewed, depending on who's point of view you check out, but I found it particularly ironic that the Mexican government at the time wouldn't allow Americans to settle in their territory unless they converted Catholicism and adopted Spanish surnames.

:huh: tell me, what was I taught about the US?
there's really no skewing factor in the History of Texas.
ironically, US citizens settled there and when they didn't like the laws that Mexico adopted ( outlawed slavery for one) they "separated" to form their own country ( hahahaha! yeah totally independent) aided by the US which later absorbed it.
doesn't seem to be many points of view on the issue.
it was kind of ironic that it did start because Mexico didn't want to have US immigrants come into it's country and US immigrants thought they had a RIGHT to go to Mexico ( Iron-eeeee) but yeah.
history is written by the winners anyway.

[Denny67]

no, I'm merely pointing out how, so far you have
· responded to an argument I never made
· not been able to prove any portion of your point
· are rather ignorant about the point you're trying to make
but yeah, I can see how you'd miss that and keep on laughing.

You keep saying it but have yet to outline a fact. Nice dodge.

actually, it's very easy to disprove the race card.
say someone said I was racially motivated, I could disprove it easily.
see? maybe the reason you find it difficult is because you simply can't.
the fact that you're UNABLE to defend against it, doesn't mean it's indefensible.
it just underscores the fact you're out of your depth in this.
so far though I have backed up my argument quite well, and you on the other hand are so scared that you can't even respond to points I raise and have to try and shift the focus away from the fact you obviously have very little knowledge about the topic

Actually you have not proven a damn thing but keep telling yourself that you have. At one point you may actually believe it or even better yet you may rally another MB poster to your aid.

LOL, don't be pathetic. you're the only one here trying to deviate from the point, I even broke it down for you on the last post, you choose to not respond to the post and merely place it on top of yours to give the impression you are, but so far you have addressed none of the points raised in my responses to you.
so, no, you haven't "focussed on the issue" not by a long shot.

Really? I thought I was pretty clear about addressing the points but if you wish to bullet point em out.. go for it. I will be happy to get into any point you like.

really? which part of my post implied that I wanted to ignore the fact that laws are being broken? which part of my posts so far has tried to detract from this fact? I'll bet you can't produce that portion, simply because I have kept calling them ILLEGAL immigrants and continuously said that they come here ILLEGALLY in fact I have focussed on the real reasons that they do, not just my perceptions of why, unlike yourself.
last time I checked, your government doesn't cherry pick the laws it enforces as evidenced by your border patrol ( which has always existed) so I don't really see how that is relevant to the discussion.
also, if you think harassing people outside of Home Depot while calling people that don't agree with you "traitors" "taking care of illegal immigration" then maybe it is I who should have been laughing from the start.

Oh look at the pot calling the kettle black. Show me where I ever condoned “harassing people outside of Home Depot.” Also if you honestly think the US government is not turning a blind eye to illegal immigration you are dumber than I first thought.

I'm sorry, you showed something beyond a "showdown" of a doubt?
I hope you're not one of those "learn the language"cats because that would be downright Ironic.
you have so far proven nothing, the fact that in California there's Irish and Canadians and Koreans and Chinese and many others, here ILLEGALLY and the minutemen don't seem all that concerned about it ( why are they "cherry picking" which Illegals to target? aren't they ALL breaking the laws?)
kind of proves my point more than yours.
also, you have provided statistics that show that 32& of Hispanics in June ( Hispanics can include Puerto Ricans BTW) consider immigration reduction, far from the "pissed off" argument you presented.
also for your benefit here's a definition of "significant"

yeah I had a typo… zomg!

I have show beyond just the poll number and you know it. But hey spin it how you want. Also I never said that there were no other people from other countries here illegally, only that people from Mexico were the biggest violators of US immigration laws. Since the topic was the Minutemen who are primarily on the US/Mexican border I was pretty sure that was a given.

Also to the “pissed off" argument of my statement was and is still that do in fact have Hispanic friend who are “pissed off" about illegal immigration for various reasons. You have stated you do not believe me and I have replied back with a very clear… I don’t give a **** if you do or not. Can’t get much more clear that that.

so if for you 32% instead of 68% is the "fairly large" number, there's really nothing we can do about that is there?
so again, there is a very strong racial element to this debate, simply because out of the 70% of Hispanic illegals about 50% are Mexicans and yet the Ire is seldom against anyone BUT Mexicans.
so....yeah.



yes, but only to the tune of 55% so to someone like you that deems 32% significant 45% being ignored should kind of set off alarms in your head should it not?

So once again… if by “racial element” you mean that the largest number BY FAR of people sneaking into this country illegally are Mexican and people have dared to point that out? Uh ok… sure whatever. You can tap dance around the numbers and argue semantics all you want but 3/10 Latinos when polled took issue with illegal immigration. What that shows is even people of the same ethnic background do not appreciate when people of the same ethnic background break the laws of this country. So once again, not a race issue, a right and wrong issue, a lawful and unlawful issue. This is where you seem to be getting lost.

also, when are Mexicans NOT from Mexico?

Just trying to be super clear. You seem to be having problems and I am trying to avoid any of the implied statements or perceived ambiguity you seem to be struggling with. Maybe it is you just being coy but I am not sure.

wow, you heard that everyone? Denny's been to Costco IN Mexico.
and Denny feels that Mexico is NOT a third world country.
hey that's good enough for me, someone call the UN so they can stop calling us a third world country BY DEFINITION.
you understand what that means right Denny?
let me give you a hint, the amount of Costco stores is not involved.
see how my arguments come from fact and yours come from cursory observation?

You are absolutely right. I used my definition and not the UN’s.

IMO:

NOT

http://www.ahorre.com/mexico/images/Mexico1.jpg

IS

http://www.tomorrowproject.net/pub/Media/-568_200.jpg

I have always agreed with this, there are problems in Mexico that have to be addressed, some of them come from corruption in the high spheres of government, others come from being squeezed by more powerful nations *nudge, nudge, wink,wink* what's baffling to me is that the US government wants it both ways, they want to be able to exploit third world countries but they don't want to have any consequence to their actions.

You have no arguments from me there. I feel we should be helping Mexico to evolve and grow. It is not only the right thing to do but mutually beneficial for both countries. Unfortunately corruption on both side s of the boarder are keeping that from happening while other are enjoying the profits created by such an unstable environment. That being sais, it is not a free pass for people to just walk across the border in droves and break the laws of this country.

never mind that organizations like the UN and others define Mexico as thrid world, it isn't because YOU say it isn't? seems like a "wild assumption" to me. and why is it not because Mexico looks like "most American towns" even though half the people in Mexico live in poverty and one fifth in EXTREME poverty and no, that doesn't mean they hit the slopes over the weekend.

As I said above… yeah pretty much. Mexico has just about everything the US has where other countries do not have a pot to piss in. There is a pretty clear discrepancy there and the box that the UN would like put everything into does a real disservice to utter Mexico in the same breath as truly impoverished nations such as Ethiopia or Darfur.

May be shock to you but many Americans don’t go hitting the slopes every weekend either and live paycheck to paycheck.

[hippie_hunter]

I see the Minute Men as nothing but unlawful vigilantes who have no right or business to do what they want to do. If they want to help protect our border, join the Border Patrol, they need the men.

[Mr Sparkle]

I hate to say it bro, but your has been by far one of the single dumbest responses I've had the pleasure of reading, I asked you to respond to my posts and you just break them up and pretty much don't address them, just write something underneath them and hope it covers it.

it doesn't dude. seriously.

You keep saying it but have yet to outline a fact. Nice dodge.



for instance:

Actually you have not proven a damn thing but keep telling yourself that you have. At one point you may actually believe it or even better yet you may rally another MB poster to your aid.

nice dodge at what? I was responding to a rather idiotic post by you, and yet, you simply say I haven't proven a damned thing?
you don't even know what my argument is ( because you have so far failed to grasp it not because I haven't presented it) and yet I'm the one "dodging"? nope, sorry Denny, this is still the point.

you have been unable to prove any of your points.
you have contradicted your own argument more than once
you're obviously quite ignorant.I'm not making these up, let's continue on and bask in the glory of your ineptitude.


Really? I thought I was pretty clear about addressing the points but if you wish to bullet point em out.. go for it. I will be happy to get into any point you like.

get into ANY point, please.
something relevant would be good.



Oh look at the pot calling the kettle black. Show me where I ever condoned “harassing people outside of Home Depot.” Also if you honestly think the US government is not turning a blind eye to illegal immigration you are dumber than I first thought.

well, actually, I asked you to point out where I wanted to ignore the laws being broken, or a post of mine that tried to detract from that fact.
you're unable to do so, so now? some misdirection.
sadly, not good enough, the minutemen in San Diego and it's neighboring counties have been DOCUMENTED harassing people outside Home Depot and Home improvement stores, In some cases even if people produced papers they were told they were from Mexico simply because they "looked Mexican" so yeah.mind you I said the following.



"yeah I had a typo… zomg!

I have show beyond just the poll number and you know it. But hey spin it how you want. Also I never said that there were no other people from other countries here illegally, only that people from Mexico were the biggest violators of US immigration laws. Since the topic was the Minutemen who are primarily on the US/Mexican border I was pretty sure that was a given."

"if you think harassing people outside of Home Depot while calling people that don't agree with you "traitors" "taking care of illegal immigration" then maybe it is I who should have been laughing from the start. "

see? It's pretty clear to anyone who can read English, since you said:

Some people in this country that live in boarder states who obviously feel that they are not being represented by their government or law enforcement have done what is foreign to most people in this country today. Get off their asses and take care of it themselves

since minutemen engage in the aforementioned tactics and you equate said tactics with taking care of illegal immigration.
doesn't seem to be too open to interpretation, I even provided a link to videos showing these altercations.
so again. sorry you're quite wrong.



Also to the “pissed off" argument of my statement was and is still that do in fact have Hispanic friend who are “pissed off" about illegal immigration for various reasons. You have stated you do not believe me and I have replied back with a very clear… I don’t give a **** if you do or not. Can’t get much more clear that that.

interesting typo, almost like a Freudian slip one might say.
anyone "pissed off" about illegal immigration has issues to begin with, but anyway, immaterial I not only said I did not believe you, but I said I had more Hispanic friends than you that were US citizens and they were far from pissed off.
so, since I know I'm actually telling the truth it is I who doesn't care about your argument, since it's clearly fabricated like your "Mexico has costco so Mexico is not a third world nation" brain fart, you have a right to your opinion and all, it's just sad that you use your right to voice such a stupid, ignorant opinion.



So once again… if by “racial element” you mean that the largest number BY FAR of people sneaking into this country illegally are Mexican and people have dared to point that out? Uh ok… sure whatever. You can tap dance around the numbers and argue semantics all you want but 3/10 Latinos when polled took issue with illegal immigration. What that shows is even people of the same ethnic background do not appreciate when people of the same ethnic background break the laws of this country. So once again, not a race issue, a right and wrong issue, a lawful and unlawful issue. This is where you seem to be getting lost.

no, because see, once again, you happen to contradict yourself in this very post.
first of all, 55% percent is not a majority "by far" anyone who says this is either not too familiar with mathematics or trying hard to sustain a point that unsustainable.
simple, 45% of Illegal immigration comes from countries other than Mexico, seems like a significant number, so focusing on the ethnicity responsible for only part of the issue makes it evident that it's clearly NOT a "lawful/unlawful" issue, since obviously all the other ethnicities are "unlawful" as well, again, here are your lovely parting gifts.


Just trying to be super clear. You seem to be having problems and I am trying to avoid any of the implied statements or perceived ambiguity you seem to be struggling with. Maybe it is you just being coy but I am not sure.

hahaha, thanks for the laugh, I really didn't need it or anything, but still it was nice.



You are absolutely right. I used my definition and not the UN’s.

IMO:

NOT

http://www.ahorre.com/mexico/images/Mexico1.jpg

IS

http://www.tomorrowproject.net/pub/Media/-568_200.jpg

well, it's not just the UN, it's the general definition used by governments and economists worldwide, we might NOT be a third world country in the future, but right now, we are, regardless of how many Costcos you have been in.
in other words, your definitions are worth for jack, since hey:

http://wikitravel.org/upload/en/8/80/Addis-ababa-ethiopia.jpg

that's the capital city of Ethiopia, so I guess those people aren't really starving.
so guess what? while governments and economists, social scientists and other brainy types use the "known" definition of Third world, I'll stick with that one.
but hey, feel free to e-mail them YOUR definition
"third world country: being a country devoid of Costco stores"
let me know how that works out.



You have no arguments from me there. I feel we should be helping Mexico to evolve and grow. It is not only the right thing to do but mutually beneficial for both countries. Unfortunately corruption on both side s of the boarder are keeping that from happening while other are enjoying the profits created by such an unstable environment. That being sais, it is not a free pass for people to just walk across the border in droves and break the laws of this country.

I don't think anyone has stated this is a free pass.
plus, what exactly is free about back breaking labor for less than minimum wage? doesn't sound like a free pass at all.
also, a lot of people die on the way, so that sounds more and more like desperation rather than opportunism to me.
maybe my definition of desperation ( the generally accepted one) varies from the "Denny" definition.


As I said above… yeah pretty much. Mexico has just about everything the US has where other countries do not have a pot to piss in. There is a pretty clear discrepancy there and the box that the UN would like put everything into does a real disservice to utter Mexico in the same breath as truly impoverished nations such as Ethiopia or Darfur.

and as I said before, it is part of the third world by definition, whether you agree with it or not is rather unimportant. it's not something the UN came up with, this term was coined fifty years ago, so really, there's no point in discussing this, since you happen to fantastically wrong.


May be shock to you but many Americans don’t go hitting the slopes every weekend either and live paycheck to paycheck.

might be a shock to you, but the "hitting the slopes" a joke about "extreme poverty" quite obvious really, since I even illustrated it with a snowboarder saying "extreme poverty dude!"
:whatever:

[teseract]

If the people that are illegally coming to this country are primarily Hispanics how you address the issue without calling them Hispanics?
It is not a race issue it is people being descriptive of where the majority of the problem is originating. Just because you have had contact with a few bad apples does not mean that everyone in this country that wants to see our laws enforced by our government is a bigot.

That is like saying, because you have a few bad cops around the country that “all cops are bad.” I always find it amusing how people try to force their perspective to fit the national picture. As for you “anti Hispanic” claim. I have yet to see any news of hate crimes against Hispanics, any mistreatment of Hispanics come to light as of yet. So where you are getting all of the” social problems plaguing American society today where Hispanics are concerned is a real mystery.

BTW I live in Las Vegas where about 50% of the population is Hispanic and none of that is happening here. I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “

Lets see now:

I'm white, european middle-class with fairly good english skills but I'm not an american citizen. What do you think would happen, if I cross over from Mexico, together with a legal, american-hispanic citizen, who do you think would be stopped by the Minute Men, me or him?

[jaguarr]

I see the Minute Men as nothing but unlawful vigilantes who have no right or business to do what they want to do. If they want to help protect our border, join the Border Patrol, they need the men.

I'd tend to agree with you on that. They've become another group entirely that law enforcement and the border patrol have to keep an eye on to make sure they aren't crossing the line and that eats up manpower, dollars and time that could be better spent actually protecting our borders by the men and women who's actual JOB it is to do that.

jag

[BlackLantern]

Why should someone be forced to give up their national pride? And on top of that, why shouldn't they wave the flag of their home country, considering they had become a national scapegoat overnight?

I think one of the sticking points is that some illegal immigrants refuse to learn the language or the culture. If you want to retain your country's culture and heritage thats fine, but if you are going to live in another country you might want to learn or attempt to learn the language and things about the culture.

[Darthphere]

The Minute Men are hateful bastards who disrespect the legacy of true patriots by taking up that name.

[jaguarr]

I think one of the sticking points is that some illegal immigrants refuse to learn the language or the culture. If you want to retain your country's culture and heritage thats fine, but if you are going to live in another country you might want to learn or attempt to learn the language and things about the culture.

There's no official language in the U.S. And it's still their choice if they don't want to learn the language or culture. If that holds them back, so be it. But we can't force people to learn a language or culture. Especially people who are here illegally to begin with. It's cost, time and resource prohibitive and there are a lot of other things I'd prefer my tax dollars be spent on, personally.

jag

[Darthphere]

There's no official language in the U.S. And it's still their choice if they don't want to learn the language or culture. If that holds them back, so be it. But we can't force people to learn a language or culture. Especially people who are here illegally to begin with. It's cost, time and resource prohibitive and there are a lot of other things I'd prefer my tax dollars be spent on, personally.

jag

:up:


darth

[bell110]

I keep hearing that "they are a burden" why the **** do they keep finding jobs then?
why exactly? if they are indeed such a burden why are so many jobs still available, and why are illegal immigrants employed at such high percentages comparatively speaking?
sorry bu it is very much a "race issue" and I have seen it unfold.

They are finding jobs because employers can hire them cheaply.

Hire an American for $7.15 p/h or hire an illegal for $3.00 p/h.

The solution, fine the hell out of companies that hire illegals. Make it a larger financial burden to hire illegals, and the companies will stop.

[hippie_hunter]

They are finding jobs because employers can hire them cheaply.

Hire an American for $7.15 p/h or hire an illegal for $3.00 p/h.

The solution, fine the hell out of companies that hire illegals. Make it a larger financial burden to hire illegals, and the companies will stop.

I agree there are only solutions to the immigration crisis and they have to occur at the same time. The border has to be secured and the employers have to be punished severely.

Targeting the immigrants is just ignorant and will not work.

[Lobster Charlie]

Eisenhower had an interesting strategy to confront the illegal alien issue of his time. This is from 1954:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_W etback (you gotta close the gap between W and e)

"The operation began in California and Arizona and coordinated 1,075 Border Patrol agents along with state and local police agencies to mount an aggressive crackdown, going as far as police sweeps of Mexican-American neighborhoods and random stops and ID checks of "Mexican-looking" people in a region with many Native Americans and native Hispanics."

"Operation ******* deported approximately 80,000 Mexican nationals in the space of almost a year, although local INS officials claimed that an additional 500,000-700,000 had fled to Mexico before the campaign began. The INS estimates rested on the claim that most undocumented people, fearing apprehension by the government, had voluntarily repatriated themselves before and during."

That plan would never fly in our PC society, but I found it interesting.

[Kel]

Make sure you have a good education, not one that only gets you $7.15 / hr......and the horrible illegals won't be taking your jobs........they'll be working for you, at a lower wage, which means your wage will probably be higher in the long run........

Should they come here legally, yes of course...........but our system works against them in that respect, not for them........they don't have money for a lawyer to speed up the process.......a friend of mine who is from France, has done it legally, and he's been DOING IT....for the past 10 years, and $15,000+ bucks later because he is educated enough to do it without a lawyer.....FINALLY he becomes a citizen this month. And people expect those simply trying to feed their families in a country that is not taking care of its own people properly so they come here......you think they will go through that........doubtful......and I don't blame them.

[Mr Sparkle]

They are finding jobs because employers can hire them cheaply.

Hire an American for $7.15 p/h or hire an illegal for $3.00 p/h.

The solution, fine the hell out of companies that hire illegals. Make it a larger financial burden to hire illegals, and the companies will stop.

you will find no complaints from me there.
I think I said in some other thread that the best way to stop illegal immigration was not with walls but with just NOT hiring illegal immigrants.
I mean, if it's an issue of legality, hiring them is just as illegal as them being in the US.
but in the end, it's not really an issue, it's being made into one because there issues far more important than this one that need to be put in the back burner.

[Mr Sparkle]

"random stops and ID checks of "Mexican-looking" people"

That plan would never fly in our PC society, but I found it interesting.

you found racial profiling interesting?:huh:
wow, that wouldn't be a slap in the face to US citizens that have been there for generations and just happen to "look Mexican" huh?

and as long as you're reading up on the subject read about the "Mexican Repatriation" of the 30's.

[jaguarr]

I think we should send all the illegals to live with Mr. Sparkle. He's like a billionaire in TJ. :up:

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

I think we should send all the illegals to live with Mr. Sparkle. He's like a billionaire in TJ. :up:

jag

you misunderstood.
I said I was "chamillionaire" in TJ.
honest mistake though.

[jaguarr]

you misunderstood.
I said I was "chamillionaire" in TJ.
honest mistake though.

This is worse than when I found out there's no Santa Claus. :(

jag

[BlackLantern]

This is worse than when I found out there's no Santa Claus. :(

jag

There is no Santa??? :csad:

[jaguarr]

There is no Santa??? :csad:

What are you whining about? Mr. Sparkle's not even a billionaire! :(

jag

[Darthphere]

I think we should send all the illegals to live with Mr. Sparkle. He's like a billionaire in TJ. :up:

jag

you misunderstood.
I said I was "chamillionaire" in TJ.
honest mistake though.

This is worse than when I found out there's no Santa Claus. :(

jag

There is no Santa??? :csad:

What are you whining about? Mr. Sparkle's not even a billionaire! :(

jag

To be fair, Mr Sparkle is a chamillionaire in pesos, so he doesn't even get pulled over for riding dirty.

[jaguarr]

To be fair, Mr Sparkle is a chamillionaire in pesos, so he doesn't even get pulled over for riding dirty.

Your words bring me much sadness. :(

jag

[Lobster Charlie]

you found racial profiling interesting?:huh:
wow, that wouldn't be a slap in the face to US citizens that have been there for generations and just happen to "look Mexican" huh?

and as long as you're reading up on the subject read about the "Mexican Repatriation" of the 30's.

I found it interesting that something like this was so successful. Aside from stopping "mexican looking" people in the street, the fear of actually being caught sent hundreds of thousands running back home. Right now, I doubt there is much fear at all.

I "look Mexican" as well, and I haven't a single drop of Latin (or Native American/Indigenous Mexican) blood in my body. It'd sure be annoying to get stopped all the time.

[BlackLantern]

There's no official language in the U.S. And it's still their choice if they don't want to learn the language or culture. If that holds them back, so be it. But we can't force people to learn a language or culture. Especially people who are here illegally to begin with. It's cost, time and resource prohibitive and there are a lot of other things I'd prefer my tax dollars be spent on, personally.

jag

No, there isnt an official language in the US, but English is the dominant language in this country. I wasnt talking about forcing, I was commenting on the complete unwilling attitude of some immigrants when it comes to learning English....like learning English is some insult to their own culture....

[Mr Sparkle]

I found it interesting that something like this was so successful. Aside from stopping "mexican looking" people in the street, the fear of actually being caught sent hundreds of thousands running back home. Right now, I doubt there is much fear at all.

I "look Mexican" as well, and I haven't a single drop of Latin (or Native American/Indigenous Mexican) blood in my body. It'd sure be annoying to get stopped all the time.

the fear of being deported drove people to deport themselves?:huh:
I've never understood that.
"hey, if we make them afraid to get deported they won't stay and work until they are deported, they'll return home for fear....of....getting......deported."

[jaguarr]

No, there isnt an official language in the US, but English is the dominant language in this country. I wasnt talking about forcing, I was commenting on the complete unwilling attitude of some immigrants when it comes to learning English....like learning English is some insult to their own culture....

So what it if was an in insult to their own culture? It's their culture. :huh: I HATE getting in a cab and the jackass behind the wheel barely speaks enough English to understand where the hell I want to go. But, it's a free country and if he doesn't want me to tip him because he took the long route even though I asked him not to and then pretend like he didn't understand me, he'll learn more English when I tell him that's why I'm not tipping him. ;) However, I'd never demand that they learn an "official language". Economic peer pressure is far more powerful.

jag

[jaguarr]

the fear of being deported drove people to deport themselves?:huh:
I've never understood that.
"hey, if we make them afraid to get deported they won't stay and work until they are deported, they'll return home for fear....of....getting......deported."

Not to mention that there are a fair amount of illegals that will get caught by immigration on purpose so they can get a free ride home.

jag

[Lobster Charlie]

the fear of being deported drove people to deport themselves?:huh:
I've never understood that.
"hey, if we make them afraid to get deported they won't stay and work until they are deported, they'll return home for fear....of....getting......deported."

According to the article, that's what happened. Maybe they just didn't want to get their names on record? *shrugs*

[bell110]

Make sure you have a good education, not one that only gets you $7.15 / hr......and the horrible illegals won't be taking your jobs........they'll be working for you, at a lower wage, which means your wage will probably be higher in the long run........

Should they come here legally, yes of course...........but our system works against them in that respect, not for them........they don't have money for a lawyer to speed up the process.......a friend of mine who is from France, has done it legally, and he's been DOING IT....for the past 10 years, and $15,000+ bucks later because he is educated enough to do it without a lawyer.....FINALLY he becomes a citizen this month. And people expect those simply trying to feed their families in a country that is not taking care of its own people properly so they come here......you think they will go through that........doubtful......and I don't blame them.

So if someone was stupid enough to neglect their education, they don't deserve to work?

Or, how about we abolish the minimum wage? That way companies won't have to hire illegals. They can hire Americans for their cheap labor.

[The Senator]

So if someone was stupid enough to neglect their education, they don't deserve to work?

Or, how about we abolish the minimum wage? That way companies won't have to hire illegals. They can hire Americans for their cheap labor.

Americans won't seek jobs that don't pay.

[bell110]

Americans won't seek jobs that don't pay.

If that were true, there wouldn't need to be a minimum wage.

[Mr Sparkle]

So if someone was stupid enough to neglect their education, they don't deserve to work?

Or, how about we abolish the minimum wage? That way companies won't have to hire illegals. They can hire Americans for their cheap labor.

no, I won't say "stupid enough" to neglect their education.
some people don't get much of a say in the matter and due to circumstances beyond their control they don't get an education.
the minimum wage is there to prevent people from being exploited, and Illegals are victims of exploitation, so then the blame rests of the employers to a point.
Illegal immigration would have no point if there were no jobs to be had.

[Addendum]

So if someone was stupid enough to neglect their education, they don't deserve to work?

They should be able to work, but they shouldn't expect a high paying job because of what they didn't do in school. If they don't like the consequences of their actions, it's their fault.

[bell110]

They should be able to work, but they shouldn't expect a high paying job because of what they didn't do in school. If they don't like the consequences of their actions, it's their fault.

Yes, they shouldn't expect to get a high paying jobs. But they shouldn't be discarded so companies can get around minimum wage laws by hiring non-Americans. I feel the same about out-sourcing jobs too. I hate calling a customer service number and getting someone how can barely speak english.

[jaguarr]

Yes, they shouldn't expect to get a high paying jobs. But they shouldn't be discarded so companies can get around minimum wage laws by hiring non-Americans. I feel the same about out-sourcing jobs too. I hate calling a customer service number and getting someone how can barely speak english.

I saw the Irony Signal and came running! :oldrazz: (Sorry, couldn't resist)

jag

[kane9321]

they are doing something our goverment wont do....

[kane9321]

Whatever. If you want to be a citizen of another country you need to adopt to their flag since your basically adopting to their laws and way of life.

It doesn't mean you can't have pride for being a Mexican and still have your Mexican flag. It's just those morons went about it the wrong way. It just got people pissed off and rightfully I might add.

It was shoving their countries flag in our face as if saying they only want to come over to exploit our country rather than embrace it for the freedoms they can have.

agreed 100%..this really gets me upset

[Darthphere]

they are doing something our goverment wont do....

You mean sit around all day and get nothing done and take part in a war that really doesn't exist. Yeah, our government doesn't do that.

[Mr Sparkle]

It was shoving their countries flag in our face as if saying they only want to come over to exploit our country rather than embrace it for the freedoms they can have.

:huh: they waved their flag, this upsets you?
the text that followed was your interpretation of what they meant, not what they meant.
makes for an effective argument, though a false one.

hey, how about Saint Paddy's day?
damned Irishmen shoving their customs in our face as if saying they come over to exploit our country rather than embrace it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/NewDublin-leprechauns.jpg

right?:huh: I mean, people that saw this were like " all in good fun" but hey....Mexican flags? no...screw that **** right?