Who is the greatest "world" sportsman of all time?

[Whirlysplat]

Let's avoid sports that are really only specific to certain nations of regions. So we'll have to exclude my favourite sport Rugby, along with Cricket and most American sports like Baseball, Gridiron etc.

I'm talking about the guys who are recognisable anywhere;

Pele
Ali
Tyson
Woods
Borg

etc.

So of the greatest players in the world. Who is the greatest. Choose from any era. You can only choose one. Please also give the justification for your choice. I will total up choices and give results periodically.

[Jerry!]

Jordan. No explanation necessary.

[FaT_tONle]

He said "World" ^^^... I'd put like three guys up there before putting Jordan... Ali for sure... maybe Federer/Woods if we are talking current athletes... and definitely like five or six soccer players would top any "World" athlete list.

[Jerry!]

No one cares about soccer in America. That is just the truth. And no one outside of America cared about basketball UNTIL Jordan played. Everybody, EVERYBODY wanted to "Be like Mike". I mean, he had a ****ing impact on the revenue, there was a study done about him being responsible for the soaring revenue during his career, it was estimated at around 10 BILLION. Who knows where the NBA is today without Jordan. He is the most recognizable sports figure of all time. Anywhere, anywhere he would go during his career and after it, its a circus. He could go into the depths of the Congo and still people would know who he was.

[Whirlysplat]

No one cares about soccer in America. .

In North America perhaps, but, it's a little bigger than basketball in the south and the rest of the world. ;)

[Jerry!]

Now, I wouldn't doubt it. But there was basically just one person responsible for basketball to even be talked about anywhere else but America, and that was Jordan. I'll compromise and say it would be pretty close between Ali and Jordan, but other than that, forget it. Woods? Federer? Borg? Come on. I'm not saying they aren't some of the best of all time in their respective sport, but are they on a worldwide level of Jordan or Ali? No way.

[Whirlysplat]

Now, I wouldn't doubt it. But there was basically just one person responsible for basketball to even be talked about anywhere else but America, and that was Jordan. I'll compromise and say it would be pretty close between Ali and Jordan, but other than that, forget it. Woods? Federer? Borg? Come on. I'm not saying they aren't some of the best of all time in their respective sport, but are they on a worldwide level of Jordan or Ali? No way.

Pele, Ali, Woods, Fedderer are all at least as recognisable. Although America did not like Lewis, he had one hell of a record. Marciano, Joe Louis, Jesse Owens are all in many ways names that have stood the test of time, in a way I wonder if Jordans will. Carl Lewis, Maradonna, Evander Holyfield have some amazing feats. Etc. etc. etc.

[Jerry!]

Jordan, Ali, Pele would be my top 3. Even though I don't give a **** about soccer and a lot of America doesn't either (which does count for something when you are talking about world wide appeal) I'd put Pele in the top 3.

[Addendum]

Borg

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/2/25/Borg_trio.jpg

[Whirlysplat]

Jesse Owens is for me the greatest of all time. I thought about Ali and Pele. Sorry, in Europe, Jordan just doesn't cut it. This is for the same reasons Pele might not in the U.S. However Jesse Owens and Joe Louis achievements transcend sport, even 70 odd years later. Their achievements are the stuff of legend. A black man winning four medals in Berlin, in front of Hitler. You have to love it!

[Arc-Light]

Jesse Owens is for me the greatest of all time. I thought about Ali and Pele. Sorry, in Europe, Jordan just doesn't cut it. This is for the same reasons Pele might not in the U.S. However Jesse Owens and Joe Louis achievements transcend sport, even 70 odd years later. Their achievements are the stuff of legend. A black man winning four medals in Berlin, in front of Hitler. You have to love it!

I was just about to post mine

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd45/INBuckeye/250px-Jesse_Owens1.jpg

I agree Jesse Owens hands down what he did at the time he did it makes him the best ever..

[E. Nygma]

Muhammad Ali no question.

The man was a star, he was a hero, he was inspirational to people of all races. He fought racism, he fought religious discrimination, he fought against a wrongful war in Vietnam. Not to mention how good of a fighter he was.

[Albiceleste]

The one and only Diego Armando Maradona http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7509/maradonamexico86he9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Cmill216]

Michael Jordan.

The NBA and basketball as a whole are as global as they are because of him. He redefined athlete marketing on an international scale.

[FaT_tONle]

The one and only Diego Armando Maradona http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7509/maradonamexico86he9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The hell are you smoking? Mr. Handball... :huh: ???

[Jerry!]

Michael Jordan.

The NBA and basketball as a whole are as global as they are because of him. He redefined athlete marketing on an international scale.

Yeah. That's what I'm talking 'bout.

[Whirlysplat]

Michael Jordan.

The NBA and basketball as a whole are as global as they are because of him. He redefined athlete marketing on an international scale.

It's not really global on the scale of football (soccer).

[Jerry!]

It was when he was around and he was sole reason for it.

[Cmill216]

It's not really global on the scale of football (soccer).

That wasn't the point I was trying to make.

My point was that basketball is a huge international sport now mainly because of Jordan.

[Whirlysplat]

That wasn't the point I was trying to make.

My point was that basketball is a huge international sport now mainly because of Jordan.

I would say the globetrotters are far more important for basketball than Jordan. They broke the Black White barrier up until them basketball had been a white mans sport.

Your point was about the greatest world athlete? In a sport by world standards which is not played by most of the world to any real standard?

[Whirlysplat]

It was when he was around and he was sole reason for it.

No, it never was on the scale of Soccer for the rest of the world. I think Americans really can't comprehend the scale of football.

10,000 major stadiums worldwide are visited by more than 18,000 people on every match day, the majority are (soccer) football stadiums.

http://www.worldstadiums.com/

It's a different scale!

[Jerry!]

The ****ing Globetrotters? You're insane. Not to take anything away from them, but bigger than Jordan? Sorry man, that is crazy.

[Whirlysplat]

The ****ing Globetrotters? You're insane. Not to take anything away from them, but bigger than Jordan? Sorry man, that is crazy.

Not bigger, no, but, what they did was beat American league teams who were all white, allowing blacks and whites to play on an equal level. Without them you would perhaps not have had Jordan as the NBA would have been formed later. In many ways they caused its creation.

[kang604]

Muhammad Ali

[Scooter]

The Greatest. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=bpXMiF6yph0)

Bomaye! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=pl0h9pAqsz4)

[Albiceleste]

The hell are you smoking? Mr. Handball... :huh: ???


Maradona is the greatest of all time. When you think of soccer you think of maradona. Maradona has made the greatest goal in the history of soccer. As good as Jordan was he is not at the same level as Maradona. To this day Maradona attracts millions of people where ever he goes.

[Jerry!]

Not bigger, no, but, what they did was beat American league teams who were all white, allowing blacks and whites to play on an equal level. Without them you would perhaps not have had Jordan as the NBA would have been formed later. In many ways they caused its creation.

I still think that's a ******** reason, but I'll compromise and say that they did pave the way somewhat. Despite that, I'm positive Jordan would have played no matter what, I mean come on he is the best basketball player that ever lived.

But without Jordan, the NBA isn't close to what it is today. You can have every other suoerstar of and before Jordan's time and it wouldn't really make a difference, if there is no Jordan, the NBA is nowhere as big as it is today internationally and in the country. Individually, he has done more for his sport than than a Pele or a Mardonna has done for soccer. That's not taking anything away from those guys, but it's tough to pin it on one guy who brought the game into what it is today. In basketball, there is only one, that is Jordan. Is basketball the world's game? No way. No argument there. But the only reason basketball is even recognized and has a following outside of the US is due to Jordan.

[Whirlysplat]

I still think that's a ******** reason, but I'll compromise and say that they did pave the way somewhat. Despite that, I'm positive Jordan would have played no matter what, I mean come on he is the best basketball player that ever lived.

But without Jordan, the NBA isn't close to what it is today. You can have every other suoerstar of and before Jordan's time and it wouldn't really make a difference, if there is no Jordan, the NBA is nowhere as big as it is today internationally and in the country. Individually, he has done more for his sport than than a Pele or a Mardonna has done for soccer. That's not taking anything away from those guys, but it's tough to pin it on one guy who brought the game into what it is today. In basketball, there is only one, that is Jordan. Is basketball the world's game? No way. No argument there. But the only reason basketball is even recognized and has a following outside of the US is due to Jordan.

I actually watched the Globetrotters in Brighton England in 1979! I don't disagree Jordan did a lot for Basketball. That said, he is not the "worlds" greatest sportsman. He is nowhere near as recognisable worldwide as many of the others mentioned.

[DBella]

The hell are you smoking? Mr. Handball... :huh: ???
It's the Hand of God.

The thing is, he was good. Good enough that he didn't have to use that Hand of God. Didn't he know that Hands are not allowed in FOOTball?

[Franklin Richards]

Gretzky

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Jerry!]

I actually watched the Globetrotters in Brighton England in 1979! I don't disagree Jordan did a lot for Basketball. That said, he is not the "worlds" greatest sportsman. He is nowhere near as recognisable worldwide as many of the others mentioned.


Even saying that is grossly understating Jordan. Mercy..

[DBella]

Maradona is the greatest of all time. When you think of soccer you think of maradona. Maradona has made the greatest goal in the history of soccer. As good as Jordan was he is not at the same level as Maradona. To this day Maradona attracts millions of people where ever he goes.
I dunno, I associate Maradona with soccer but not the other way round. He's one of the greatest footballers but I wouldn't say he's THE greatest.

[Lobo]

Greatest World Sportsman of all time?

I'd have to go with
http://www.prosportsmemorabilia.com/Images/Product/33-65/33-65453-F.jpg

Michael Jordan would be high on my list and maybe #1 on my greatest American sportsman list

With futbol the only person i ever knew until recently when friends started to get me into it was Pele

I'd have Gretzky as the face of Hockey but no one cares about Hockey :o

And have to mention Joe 4 Super Bowl victories Montana

Those are my top 5 I guess

[Whirlysplat]

Gretzky

:thing: :doom: :thing:

Undoubtedly the most recognisable Hockey player. His not as recognisable as many of the others mentioned though.

[DBella]

Not in any particular order:

Ali
Jordan
Gretzky
Tony Hawk
Pele
Babe Ruth

[Lobo]

<---------Banned for not mentioning the Great Bambino :(

[Nightmare]

Michael Johnson. One of the best athlete's In us history.

[Jerry!]

Not in any particular order:

Ali
Jordan
Gretzky
Tony Hawk
Pele
Babe Ruth

Hahahaha. That's like one of those questions you get on a standardized test:

Which one does not belong?

[DBella]

<---------Banned for not mentioning the Great Bambino :(
I'm very ashamed of you. If only I have the power to ban...

[DBella]

Hahahaha. That's like one of those questions you get on a standardized test:

Which one does not belong?
Well? What's your answer? You get 10 points for the right answer. Exiled if you choose the wrong one so choose wisely.

[Lobo]

I'm very ashamed of you. If only I have the power to ban...

Well you have the power to spank me :ninja:

[Lobo]

Well? What's your answer? You get 10 points for the right answer. Exiled if you choose the wrong one so choose wisely.

This post makes you sound like your protecting the Grail in the Last Crusade :woot:

[Jerry!]

Well? What's your answer? You get 10 points for the right answer. Exiled if you choose the wrong one so choose wisely.

Really? Tony Hawk. Final answer.

[Whirlysplat]

I was just about to post mine

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd45/INBuckeye/250px-Jesse_Owens1.jpg

I agree Jesse Owens hands down what he did at the time he did it makes him the best ever..

I still believe this guy has a place!

[DBella]

Well you have the power to spank me :ninja:
With a spiked paddle.
This post makes you sound like your protecting the Grail in the Last Crusade :woot:
Maybe I am... :ninja:
Really? Tony Hawk. Final answer.
$$$$$
And we have a winner!!

[Addendum]

When you think of soccer you think of maradona.

When I think of soccer, I think of Pele

[Lobo]

With a spiked paddle.
You know me so well :stark

Maybe I am... :ninja:
:word:

[rdh007]

I'm thinking non-Americans, not having checked the first page and Pele is the first name that pops to mind. Though Gretzky was great and I don't even like hockey much.

[FaT_tONle]

Jerry... try leaving the country once in your life... then get a better feel of where Jordan stacks up with the great soccer players that have lived... he's probably in my top five but no way is he number one... ofcourse you don't give a ***** about soccer... neither do I... but you just have to realize... 75% of the countries outside the US don't give a ***** about anything BUT soccer. If you wanted an American Sportsman thread... I'll be the first to put guys like Jordan, Ruth, etc. on the list.

[Whirlysplat]

Jerry... try leaving the country once in your life... then get a better feel of where Jordan stacks up with the great soccer players that have lived... he's probably in my top five but no way is he number one... ofcourse you don't give a ***** about soccer... neither do I... but you just have to realize... 75% of the countries outside the US don't give a ***** about anything BUT soccer. If you wanted an American Sportsman thread... I'll be the first to put guys like Jordan, Ruth, etc. on the list.

I agree totally, I even made this kind of point when I started the thread.

Let's avoid sports that are really only specific to certain nations of regions. So we'll have to exclude my favourite sport Rugby, along with Cricket and most American sports like Baseball, Gridiron etc.

I'm talking about the guys who are recognisable anywhere;

Pele
Ali
Tyson
Woods
Borg

etc.

So of the greatest players in the world. Who is the greatest. Choose from any era. You can only choose one. Please also give the justification for your choice. I will total up choices and give results periodically.

Jerry! I don't dispute Jordan's greatness, it's as Fat Tonie (great name from a great show by the way) said, it's in a sport of limited exposure my friend.

[Jerry!]

So you would put Tiger Woods and Mike Tyson (?!?) over Jordan? If I am THAT off base about Jordan being the worlds greatest sportsmen as a few of you make me out to be, then what the **** are you smoking putting them up ahead of Jordan? There is no way that I can put Woods or Tyson over Jordan. Is Woods the best golfer of all time, he probably is right now or if not he will become it. But it's a myth that he reinvigorated golf.

You leave the country, go around the world, a lot people couldn't tell you who Larry Bird or Wilt Chamberlain or Jerry West was, but they know who Michael Jordan is. It doesn't matter if they understand the game of basketball or are in love with it or not, they know who he is.

[Super_Ludacris]

I would say the globetrotters are far more important for basketball than Jordan They broke the Black White barrier up until them basketball had been a white mans sport. .

Your point was about the greatest world athlete? In a sport by world standards which is not played by most of the world to any real standard?

http://forums.sohh.com/images/smilies/thumbsdown.gif

All this thread is proving is how much people on both sides of the Atlantic know little to jack **** about each other's sports.

I swear people in East Asia have the best perspective on sports cause they get everything out there on there TV (Star Sports and ESPN Asia Network is decent. They show College and Pro American Football, Hockey, Basketball, Baseball as well Cricket, Rugby, Soccer as well as Boxing, Golf, Tennis, F1 and Nascar to boot. Puts ESPN here in the states to show, what with them airing Sportscenter 30 times a sday)

But for the record, people need to know the Holy Trinity:

Ali, Jordan, Pele

Now Close this ****ing thread of vague unfamilarity being dumped left, right and center.

[Super_Ludacris]

...and Eldrick is speeding in to Fourth Place.

[Super_Ludacris]

Maradona is the greatest of all time. When you think of soccer you think of maradona. Maradona has made the greatest goal in the history of soccer. As good as Jordan was he is not at the same level as Maradona. To this day Maradona attracts millions of people where ever he goes.

Pele>>> Maradonna

When I think Maradonna I think cokehead and Hand of God.

[Jerry!]

To be honest, I never heard of Mardonna. I know Pele and I don't follow soccer in the least.

[Super_Ludacris]

Jerry... try leaving the country once in your life... then get a better feel of where Jordan stacks up with the great soccer players that have lived... he's probably in my top five but no way is he number one... ofcourse you don't give a ***** about soccer... neither do I... but you just have to realize... 75% of the countries outside the US don't give a ***** about anything BUT soccer. If you wanted an American Sportsman thread... I'll be the first to put guys like Jordan, Ruth, etc. on the list.

Actually if you go outside of USA, Jordan and basketball is actually bigger in some spots than here (Football is king here).


Places Ive seen myself....
Phillipines (Basketball is the national sport out there. Them Manilla nyggas had League Pass in 96 lol)
China ( I went out there in 96, this was before Yao. Hong Kong sells NBA jerseys on every street corner like Soccer Jerseys in the Uk)
France (was out there in 96 and you could see kids rocking jerseys and the Game of the Week is primetime on Canal +. Went again in 04 and with Tony Parker a major star dude is big. Not as big as football yes, but damn if it out there)
Eastern Europe? Crotatia, Lithuania, Yugoslavia. Y'all forget FIBA is major and they look across to the NBA as the place to make it.
Greece (no NBA Players and yet because of there strong European runs)
Brazil and Argentina (yes, thats right. We're Soccer is king, Basketball has a huge marketplace as well and there Olympic and International Squads have big followings. Oscar Schmidt is a legend in Brazil)
Shoot even Australia got some love cause of its Olympic team (Whatever happen to Shane Heal?)


The UK is like the only place where Basketball aint poppin the way it should elsewhere and people know Mike there in a major way.

So of course Jordan is major. Dude boosted Nike. The Air Jordan shoe is a culture phenomen. You go to like Asia and Japan, its like NYC the way the sneakerheads fiend. Sneaker Collectors (or Sneaker Pimps) have there own culture and market (magazines, meetings, clubs) and it all started in East Asia patterning the East Coast love for Air Jordan and Nike Uptowns.

Obviously Soccer is king worldwide, but I think people across the globe would Jordan and his impact worldwide ahead of most Olympic Athletes or Cricket and Rugby players



lol@ anyone putting Shane Warne or Johna Olumu (sp?) or Imran Khan ahead of Jordan. Yeah there icons in there sports but they aint seeing Mike.



Get ya world game up people. Your swagger levels are dangerously low.

[Super_Ludacris]

To be honest, I never heard of Mardonna. I know Pele and I don't follow soccer in the least.

Dude is the Barry Bonds of Soccer if you think about it....

[Whirlysplat]

So you would put Tiger Woods and Mike Tyson (?!?) over Jordan? If I am THAT off base about Jordan being the worlds greatest sportsmen as a few of you make me out to be, then what the **** are you smoking putting them up ahead of Jordan? There is no way that I can put Woods or Tyson over Jordan. Is Woods the best golfer of all time, he probably is right now or if not he will become it. But it's a myth that he reinvigorated golf.

You leave the country, go around the world, a lot people couldn't tell you who Larry Bird or Wilt Chamberlain or Jerry West was, but they know who Michael Jordan is. It doesn't matter if they understand the game of basketball or are in love with it or not, they know who he is.

I'd say Woods is the greatest player of one of the most played games. For a short time Tyson was the most recognizable, "then current" sportsman on the planet.

To Superludacris, Football (Soccer to you) is far bigger than Basketball in most of the countries you mention. I've been to a few of them and many others. It truly is the wolds game. That said Ali is more recognizable than Pele. The feats of the likes of Joe Louis at the time still stand up half a century later. No one disputes Jordan is a great. He's just not, "The Greatest".

[Whirlysplat]

Dude is the Barry Bonds of Soccer if you think about it....

The "Dude" was my friend, and this is from an Englishman :( so I am loathe to admit it, the greatest footballer of his generation. Now an ex coke addict and grossly overweight, he is a shadow of the man he was. Maradonna, sadly was a man with demons. Despite cheating my nation out of the World Cup, I admire his talent and skill.

[Super_Ludacris]

I'd say Woods is the greatest player of one of the most played games. For a short time Tyson was the most recognizable, "then current" sportsman on the planet.

To Superludacris, Football (Soccer to you) is far bigger than Basketball in most of the countries you mention. I've been to a few of them and many others. It truly is the wolds game. That said Ali is more recognizable than Pele. The feats of the likes of Joe Louis at the time still stand up half a century later. No one disputes Jordan is a great. He's just not, "The Greatest".

Well done, you didnt fully read my post as expected.

[DBella]

Well done, you didnt fully read my post as expected.
I think it's because Whirly deemed your post "too long", perhaps?

[Whirlysplat]

Well done, you didnt fully read my post as expected.

I've read it "all" now (happy? ;))and I agree he is more recognizable than most athletes, Lomu or Warne. That said, the fact you have heard of Lomu and Warne speaks volumes about them, doesn't it? I saw Lomu play for the Barbarians after he had had his kidney problems, sadly he was not the player he originally was by that time.

I think it's because Whirly deemed your post "too long", perhaps?


Perhaps. ;) He did make some good points, so "perhaps" I did him and his post an injustice. I'd still put Woods and a number of sportsman from the past over Jordan. Pele is certainly above him as is Ali in my opinion. Jesse Owens and Joe Louis truly stand out from the more distant past.

[Jerry!]

I'd say Woods is the greatest player of one of the most played games. For a short time Tyson was the most recognizable, "then current" sportsman on the planet.



Woods didn't make golf anymore enjoyable worldwide or in the country to people who just aren't fans of golf or never heard of the game. I was never a fan of golf before Tiger Woods. I'm still not. It is just as boring, he is doing the same thing as everyone else, except his ball lands closer to the hole. I guess if that's excitement to some people, fine.

But Jordan did that with basketball. The Bulls teams of the 90's were like a traveling circus. For that reason alone, Woods can never top Jordan. And sports like golf and tennis, those are hard for me to judge the best players and how they fit in with being one of the greastest sportsmen. They are individual sports where as basketball and soccer or football, involve a team and truly great stars make those who play with them better as was the case with Jordan and I can only assume Pele as well. There just seems to be more to it than there is with individual sports. Ali is an exception because of his impact both in and out of the ring.

And seriously, when you think of some of the World's Greatest Sportsmen, TYSON comes up with the likes of Ali and Pele and BEFORE Jordan? That's a joke.

[Jerry!]

double post

[Jerry!]

Triple post! ****ing batman boards.

[TLH]

Ali with an honorable mention to Gretzky

[Whirlysplat]

Woods didn't make golf anymore enjoyable worldwide or in the country to people who just aren't fans of golf or never heard of the game. I was never a fan of golf before Tiger Woods. I'm still not. It is just as boring, he is doing the same thing as everyone else, except his ball lands closer to the hole. I guess if that's excitement to some people, fine.

But Jordan did that with basketball. The Bulls teams of the 90's were like a traveling circus. For that reason alone, Woods can never top Jordan. And sports like golf and tennis, those are hard for me to judge the best players and how they fit in with being one of the greastest sportsmen. They are individual sports where as basketball and soccer or football, involve a team and truly great stars make those who play with them better as was the case with Jordan and I can only assume Pele as well. There just seems to be more to it than there is with individual sports. Ali is an exception because of his impact both in and out of the ring.

And seriously, when you think of some of the World's Greatest Sportsmen, TYSON comes up with the likes of Ali and Pele and BEFORE Jordan? That's a joke.

Woods is a great and incredibly recognizable. I play golf so I am biased a little. He did get a lot of people into golf. You only have to talk to people at golf clubs to see that.

Tyson for a short time till Buster Douglas and Desiree Washington etc. was the most recognizable current sportsman on the planet. It all went wrong for him and his psychological problems became more the news story. He lost his lateral movement and became a bum. The night he beat Spincks he could have beaten anyone in the world at that time, probably, such was his mystique and intimidation. Those days are long gone and for many forgotten. I don't know how old you are, but, if you are over 35 you will remember that period. Did his legacy last? Hell no! Was he for a short time the face on the planet. Yes!

Owens, Ali, Pele,

[Whirlysplat]

Holyfield also deserves a mention as does Lennox Lewis (americam reaction should be amusing). Both did amazing things. Holyfield beat so many much bigger men and Lewis dominated for almost a decade the entire heavyweight division. Did anyone dominate longer or fight more number one contenders? Marciano had more defenses by far, but, the quality was questionable. Neither is anywhere near Ali or Pele for being recognizable.

[Super_Ludacris]

Jesse Owens was a pioneer for black people but GTFOH @ thinking he's better than Mike.

Air Jordans>>>>> Owens' Medal

LOL!

[Super_Ludacris]

Holyfield also deserves a mention as does Lennox Lewis (americam reaction should be amusing). Both did amazing things. Holyfield beat so many much bigger men and Lewis dominated for almost a decade the entire heavyweight division. Did anyone dominate longer or fight more number one contenders? Marciano had more defenses by far, but, the quality was questionable. Neither is anywhere near Ali or Pele for being recognizable.

In terms of Boxers or all time athletes?

[Whirlysplat]

In terms of Boxers or all time athletes?

Heavyweight Boxers until recently were perhaps the most exposed (in terms of recognizability) sportsmen in the world. This has changed with the decline in popularity of boxing, due in part to MMA, but more, in my opinion to the prevalence of eastern European champions and contenders. Time has marched on, at least at present for boxing.

[Super_Ludacris]

Heavyweight Boxers until recently were perhaps the most exposed (in terms of recognizability) sportsmen in the world. This has changed with the decline in popularity of boxing, due in part to MMA, but more, in my opinion to the prevalence of eastern European champions and contenders. Time has marched on, at least at present for boxing.

No one is putting Holyfield and Lewis in the all time athletes list. lol@ mentioning those 2 in the same breath as Pele, Jordan and Ali. I'll give top 15-10 all time in Boxing but overall athletes of all time? Man Lenox and Evander dont even believe that **** themselves.

[Super_Ludacris]

And no, Holyfield and Lewis are not as recognisable as Jordan in there prime. Because even when heavyweight boxing was in its prime in the 80s and 90s. NBA Basketball was huge all over the world at the time (take it from an exapt).

People in China could recognise Mike. Dude was on TV Commercials, Giant Billboard posters, Nike Shoes and McDonald's ads all over America to Europe to Asia (that huge billboard in Barcelona during the Olympics) son made the Dream Team the biggest draw of the Olympics outside (maybe even more) than Track and Field.

[Whirlysplat]

Jesse Owens was a pioneer for black people but GTFOH @ thinking he's better than Mike.

Air Jordans>>>>> Owens' Medal

LOL!

If Mike had ever "done it", in front of a Nazi crowd that hated him. I might agree. Owens = amazing. Joe Louis is also awesome for a similar reason.

[Whirlysplat]

And no, Holyfield and Lewis are not as recognisable as Jordan in there prime. Because even when heavyweight boxing was in its prime in the 80s and 90s. NBA Basketball was huge all over the world at the time (take it from an exapt).

People in China could recognise Mike. Dude was on TV Commercials, Giant Billboard posters, Nike Shoes and McDonald's ads all over America to Europe to Asia (that huge billboard in Barcelona during the Olympics) son made the Dream Team the biggest draw of the Olympics outside (maybe even more) than Track and Field.

People in China would recognise Holyfield and Lewis. I remember the dream team and enjoyed it. Who hasn't forgotten the Bowe/ Holyfield trilogy and fan man, immortalised in that Simpsons episode or Bowe binning the belt, rather than fight Lewis. Heavyweight Boxings golden age though was the early seventies with Foreman, Frazier, Ali, Norton etc. long before the eighties and nineties.

[Super_Ludacris]

If Mike had ever "done it", in front of a Nazi crowd that hated him. I might agree. Owens = amazing. Joe Louis is also awesome for a similar reason.

Mike had German kids rocking his kicks and trying to get the NBA (Dirk Nowitzki)

**** doing it in front of a crowd, he had em rocking his sneakers!:wow:

I remember was talking about when the German Wall was still up and how when the Air Jordans blew up in the 80s, kids in the East were mobbing to get them on the other side and trying to deals with guys at US Army bases.

Mike was swaggerfic:woot:

[Super_Ludacris]

People in China would recognise Holyfield and Lewis. I remember the dream team and enjoyed it. Who hasn't forgotten the Bowe/ Holyfield trilogy and fan man, immortalised in that Simpsons episode or Bowe binning the belt, rather than fight Lewis. Heavyweight Boxings golden age though was the early seventies with Foreman, Frazier, Ali, Norton etc. long before the eighties and nineties.

Whirlysplat no offense but you dont know anything about Sports icons.

Because while Bowe and Holyfield were slumming it for 3 fights (Which arent as big as Tyson's comeback btw or even Foreman's shock comeback title run)NBC was getting 50 million viewers Sundays watching the Knicks vs. Bulls and kids all over the globe were rocking Chicago Bulls caps and Air Jordans.

I mentioned that Basketball has always been huge in China. They may recognise Lewis and Holyfield, but MJ is getting straight up mobbed. (on a side note lol@ Chinese kids to this day messing up there basketball skills by trying to emulate the Jordan reverse layup and fadeaway. Nah Jackie Chan, only Mike can do that).

Even ya man Beckham said he switched his number to 23 when he went to Real Madrid in honor of Michael Jordan. Dude even side he got starstruck seeing Jordan in NYC at a restraunt.

Mike wins again. Now go down to Oxford Street to Niketown and pay homage to the great Jordan potrait and peep the Air Jordan history timeline on the groundfloor.

LMAO@ Holyfield. Holyfield rocks Jordan Apparel. So who's really the boss?

[Whirlysplat]

Whirlysplat no offense but you dont know anything about Sports icons.

Because while Bowe and Holyfield were slumming it for 3 fights (Which arent as big as Tyson's comeback btw or even Foreman's shock comeback title run)NBC was getting 50 million viewers Sundays watching the Knicks vs. Bulls and kids all over the globe were rocking Chicago Bulls caps and Air Jordans.

I mentioned that Basketball has always been huge in China. They may recognise Lewis and Holyfield, but MJ is getting straight up mobbed. (on a side note lol@ Chinese kids to this day messing up there basketball skills by trying to emulate the Jordan reverse layup and fadeaway. Nah Jackie Chan, only Mike can do that).

Even ya man Beckham said he switched his number to 23 when he went to Real Madrid in honor of Michael Jordan. Dude even side he got starstruck seeing Jordan in NYC at a restraunt.

Mike wins again. Now go down to Oxford Street to Niketown and pay homage to the great Jordan potrait and peep the Air Jordan history timeline on the groundfloor.

LMAO@ Holyfield. Holyfield rocks Jordan Apparel. So who's really the boss?

No offense but 50 million viewers... The World Cup Final is watched by a few billion more than that. I don't dispute Jordan's success. He may well be the Andy Warhol of sport, his success meausured by money and marketing. He is not though as recognisable at the specific moments as Ali and Pele. Is he still in T.V. ads now? Tiger Woods is more than ten years on from his arrival. Selling a product doesn't make you the greatest. I bet Jordan has his food cooked on a Foreman grill does that make Foreman greater than Ali? Hell no!
When Manchester United play they get far more than 50 million worldwide, far more than any basketball team. Beckham is not well liked in England.

[El ASESINO]

The one and only Diego Armando Maradona http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7509/maradonamexico86he9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


He is not the greatest of all time, but every one in the world sure knows who he is. As far as the world Maradona is more reconisible than jordan. In fact their is a religion that is based on Maradona. http://www.iglesiamaradoniana.com.ar/ Any one that worships a person like a god sure is more famous than Jordan.

[Jerry!]

What is this about Mardonna cheating? ****, if he did, that automatically puts him out as a "great sportsman" in my book.

And what the hell about Lennox Lewis and Holyfield? Dude, Whirly, you're crazy. Basketball is never going to outdraw soccer ratings worldwide, it's just not going to happen. My point in all of this is that Jordan, by himself, did more for the sport he played for worldwide than any of the others mentioned.

[Super_Ludacris]

No offense but 50 million viewers... The World Cup Final is watched by a few billion more than that. I don't dispute Jordan's success. He may well be the Andy Warhol of sport, his success meausured by money and marketing. He is not though as recognisable at the specific moments as Ali and Pele. Is he still in T.V. ads now? Tiger Woods is more than ten years on from his arrival. Selling a product doesn't make you the greatest. I bet Jordan has his food cooked on a Foreman grill does that make Foreman greater than Ali? Hell no!
When Manchester United play they get far more than 50 million worldwide, far more than any basketball team. Beckham is not well liked in England.

LOL.....Cant be serious

And yes, his success measured on that level. In fact, if you measure his success in his own sport, he has exceeded Ali and Pele comparativley. Jordan had 4 MVP title, 6 Championships and 10 Scoring titles. Only Bill Russell and Robert Horry (who's a role player) have more rings.

And dont be an idiot NBC broadcasts nationally 50 Million. Their's not even 50 Million people in the UK. If you wanna talk about Worldwide then the Bulls had the largest market of China on lock (200 Million for a Basketball game. the NBA Finals in 97).


Yes he's still on TV ads now (The ads with Cuba Gooding Jr.) and his Sneaker line spun off into its own brand subsidsed by Nike. Dont get it twisted, Mike had the money and marketing come his way BECAUSE of his greatness.

People call Tiger Woods The Jordan of Golf here. If you go on ESPN, when people gauge the great runs of Federer and Woods they compare to Mike's run in the 90s.

Im sorry Whirly, your not arguing with some ignorant "Yank". I actually am fully aware of international sports and I can tell you, yes Mike is considered in the same breath as those dudes.

Get your sports knowledge my dude.

[Super_Ludacris]

What is this about Mardonna cheating? ****, if he did, that automatically puts him out as a "great sportsman" in my book.

And what the hell about Lennox Lewis and Holyfield? Dude, Whirly, you're crazy. Basketball is never going to outdraw soccer ratings worldwide, it's just not going to happen. My point in all of this is that Jordan, by himself, did more for the sport he played for worldwide than any of the others mentioned.


Truth.


It so obvious there's dudes who dont know nothing about sports expect the ones in there own country.

LMAO@ Comparing Lewis and Holyfield. And dont no one give a **** about cheating ass Diego except cheating ass Argentinans LMAO!

[Super_Ludacris]

Matter of fact look at the ad banner above the Hype right now. Its a Michael Jordan Hanes Ad LOL!

Jordan= Certified Swaggin.

[Whirlysplat]

LOL.....Cant be serious

And yes, his success measured on that level. In fact, if you measure his success in his own sport, he has exceeded Ali and Pele comparativley. Jordan had 4 MVP title, 6 Championships and 10 Scoring titles. Only Bill Russell and Robert Horry (who's a role player) have more rings.

And dont be an idiot NBC broadcasts nationally 50 Million. Their's not even 50 Million people in the UK. If you wanna talk about Worldwide then the Bulls had the largest market of China on lock (200 Million for a Basketball game. the NBA Finals in 97).


Yes he's still on TV ads now (The ads with Cuba Gooding Jr.) and his Sneaker line spun off into its own brand subsidsed by Nike. Dont get it twisted, Mike had the money and marketing come his way BECAUSE of his greatness.

People call Tiger Woods The Jordan of Golf here. If you go on ESPN, when people gauge the great runs of Federer and Woods they compare to Mike's run in the 90s.

Im sorry Whirly, your not arguing with some ignorant "Yank". I actually am fully aware of international sports and I can tell you, yes Mike is considered in the same breath as those dudes.

Get your sports knowledge my dude.

Well your opinion seems to be the minority here. You and Jerry appear to disagree with the rest of us. That's fine we all have opinons. His sport though worldwide is very much a minority and he is no Ali. You like Basketball, fair enough, I do to. I just see it for what it is.

[Jerry!]

No it seems to me the majority have Jordan in the top 3. You're the guy that has people like Tyson and the Globetrotters as more important than Jordan. You're the one who is saying he is nowhere near the level of Ali or Pele, when a lot of others have him right there along with them. Welcome to the minority.

[Whirlysplat]

No it seems to me the majority have Jordan in the top 3. You're the guy that has people like Tyson and the Globetrotters as more important than Jordan. You're the one who is saying he is nowhere near the level of Ali or Pele, when a lot of others have him right there along with them. Welcome to the minority.

Actually only 4 or 5 people have Jordan in there posts in a positive way, I can think of Cmill, Jerry, SuperL, and one other DBella, DBella did not have a top 3 she had a top 5 in no order. Apart from Dbella all are Americans. A number of people refute Jordans place in the top 3. The majority don't mention Jordan or do not have a top three. The main picks for number one place worldwide are; Ali and Pele, with Jordan coming third based on four or five people and I include Dbellas no order list. More people suggest other names. Often based on regionality. Maradonna who I mentioned earlier and would place above Jordan worldwide gets 3, as I would place him as least on a par with Jordan and mentioned him before the Argetinians. Gretzky gets two. Owens gets 2 etc.. So the majority don't have him in third place even although more people name him as third than any other individual. As more posters name others that is a majority against him... It is only americans who place him that high also. Which says a lot for his world status. Both Fat Tonie I argued you place him so high because of regionality. The fact only americans have mentioned him as the greatest supports this theory. He is still a great sportsman though and sold a lot of shoes.

[Franklin Richards]

I'm a Texan who listed Gretzky.

wha wha whaaat???

:D


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Jerry!]

Just explain something to me Whirly, because all your posts you just keep saying the same thing more or less no matter how I try to explain why Jordan is at least in the top 3. How the hell do you think of Tyson before Jordan as being one of the world's greatest sportsmen? You basically say my regionality and national bias kills my credibilty in ranking Jordan, but what does choosing Tyson over not only Jordan, but a lot of other more worthy athletes show you as?

Again, like I said, if I am THAT off base in saying Jordan is the top sportsmen of all time, what does that make you for mentioning Mike Tyson out of all people? Seriously I don't get that, you attack my choice because I am American and don't get soccer, but you mention Tyson? And you supposedly know more about what we are talking about than me? What kind of bull**** logic is that?

[chuckymack]

When I read the title of the thread, the first guy who came to my mind was Jordan. Sorry, fellas.

[Jerry!]

There's nothing to be sorry about. I understand there will never be a total agreement on who is number one. But to say Jordan isn't at least in the top 3 is just, well, ignorant.

[Franklin Richards]

It's not ignorant. It's opinion.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Jerry!]

There are limits to which you can use that "opinon" defense. When Mike Tyson comes to mind as one of the greatest sportsmen that ever lived before Jordan does, that's just plain wrong. That opinion is WRONG. I really would love to see an explantion of that reasoning, but I doubt I will get one.

[FaT_tONle]

Pele... Ali... Jordan... put two other soccer players in there to round out the top five... or one of the Olympian athletes... maybe Tiger if you like Golf or Lance if you like bike racing... can we just leave it at that and move on with this thread?

[Jerry!]

Where is there to move on with? It's basically a debate thread.

[El ASESINO]

My top 5 are

1 Pele
2 Maradona
3 Ali
4 Woods
5 Ruth

[Whirlysplat]

double post

[Whirlysplat]

There are limits to which you can use that "opinon" defense. When Mike Tyson comes to mind as one of the greatest sportsmen that ever lived before Jordan does, that's just plain wrong. That opinion is WRONG. I really would love to see an explantion of that reasoning, but I doubt I will get one.
For a short time Tyson was the most recognisable face on the planet sportwise. I have never argued he is above anyone, as a sportsman his skills were limited it turned out and he gained weaknesses and had others exploited as his career moved on. I have suggested for a short time he was the contemporary number 1 face "worldwide" in a way Jordan was not, this is due to the then world nature of boxing. I can tell you in Europe from 88 to 90 Tyson was bigger than Jordan ever was in his prime. Jordan seems only number one still to Americans. In fact bar Dbella he is only mentioned by Americans. He may well have that much of an impact in your nation.

To say it's ignorant disregards the evidence that Jordan appears only that great to Americans. It really restates my initial posts comments about minorites and regionalisation. Undoubtedly if I asked some New Zealanders they would propose Jonah Lomu equally fiercely or they might see the limitations of that choice.

[LegendaryCaleb]

Your gonna say im crazy...but...
Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan

[Whirlysplat]

Your gonna say im crazy...but...
Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan

Not at all Jordan seems a solid "American" choice. Tiger Woods I feel is probably a more "global" choice as golf is far more of a global game and of course it's your opinion. I haven't called any ones choices ignorant or crazy. I have pointed out the strong regioalisation in those that mention Jordan though.

[Jerry!]

For a short time Tyson was the most recognisable face on the planet sportwise. I have never argued he is above anyone, as a sportsman his skills were limited it turned out and he gained weaknesses and had others exploited as his career moved on. I have suggested for a short time he was the contemporary number 1 face "worldwide" in a way Jordan was not, this is due to the then world nature of boxing. I can tell you in Europe from 88 to 90 Tyson was bigger than Jordan ever was in his prime. Jordan seems only number one still to Americans. In fact bar Dbella he is only mentioned by Americans. He may well have that much of an impact in your nation.

To say it's ignorant disregards the evidence that Jordan appears only that great to Americans. It really restates my initial posts comments about minorites and regionalisation. Undoubtedly if I asked some New Zealanders they would propose Jonah Lomu equally fiercely or they might see the limitations of that choice.

So Tyson 88-90 was more recognizable worldwide than Jordan was in his PRIME? You don't seem to understand that Jordan was a lot more than just an American sports icon. He kept the NBA alive and along the way really first introduced the game on an international level, which in the process made him one of the world's most recognizable athletes, at least in the years that he played. I remember way back when there were reports of people seeing, in the heart of the Congo, little kids running around with MJ jerseys on.

I mean, the Dream Team alone should be proof enough. Even in the company of all those stars, it was still all about Jordan wherever around the world they went. There were 40 foot posters of him in Barcelona.

[Albiceleste]

Truth.




LMAO@ Comparing Lewis and Holyfield. And dont no one give a **** about cheating ass Diego except cheating ass Argentinans LMAO!


Maradona is not did not cheated. Millions of people around the world do care about Maradona.

Maradona
pele
Best
Woods
Jordan

[Whirlysplat]

So Tyson 88-90 was more recognizable worldwide than Jordan was in his PRIME? You don't seem to understand that Jordan was a lot more than just an American sports icon. He kept the NBA alive and along the way really first introduced the game on an international level, which in the process made him one of the world's most recognizable athletes, at least in the years that he played. I remember way back when there were reports of people seeing, in the heart of the Congo, little kids running around with MJ jerseys on.

I mean, the Dream Team alone should be proof enough. Even in the company of all those stars, it was still all about Jordan wherever around the world they went. There were 40 foot posters of him in Barcelona.

In 88-90 Tyson was the biggest sportsman on the planet. He actually visited Africa several times around then. That's why the Desiree Washington case was so big. Fame became infamy and his status crashed.... hard. it's easy to forget what was, with what is. The thing is Basketball never really caught on worldwide, as if it had you would have a world cup of basketball in the same way you do soccer and even Cricket and Rugby.
I don't argue relatives, I do know Tyson's fights 88 - 90 saw some of the biggest viewing figures ever. Far higher than any NBA game worldwide.

[Malice]

Davy Crocket...end of story!

[Jerry!]

Whirly you still don't understand what I am saying. Is boxing around the world more popular than basketball, honestly I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if it was or wasn't. But my point with Jordan this whole time has been relative to the sport he is in, he has done more for it individually than any other athelete has done for their respective sport. You HAVE to argue relatives in this kind of discussion, it's impossible to understand if you don't, which apparently is your main problem with considering Jordan as one of the greatest sportsmen. If you don't, then you might as well have only popular soccer players as the top sportsmen of all time. That's a whole lot more narrow minded than what I am saying about Jordan.

[Whirlysplat]

Whirly you still don't understand what I am saying. Is boxing around the world more popular than basketball, honestly I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if it was or wasn't. But my point with Jordan this whole time has been relative to the sport he is in, he has done more for it individually than any other athelete has done for their respective sport. You HAVE to argue relatives in this kind of discussion, it's impossible to understand if you don't, which apparently is your main problem with considering Jordan as one of the greatest sportsmen. If you don't, then you might as well have only popular soccer players as the top sportsmen of all time. That's a whole lot more narrow minded than what I am saying about Jordan.

I think what Louis and Owens did transcends any single sport so that is an opinion. Jordan did a great deal for a sport I don't doubt that. Is boxing more popular than basketball, heavyweights were. They are not now. You could say Imran Khan transcended Cricket for Muslim nations. It wouldn't make him a world great. It did make him a politician in Pakistan though. It wouldn't just be footballers, Ali would be above them. Let's be honest in terms of popularity he is "The greatest". How many films have been made about him?

[Jerry!]

I'm not even arguing that Jordan is the greatest, that is my personal opinon that he is, but all I am trying to do is show you he is in the top 3, whether a person is a fan of basketball or not they were fans of Michael Jordan.

[Whirlysplat]

I'm not even arguing that Jordan is the greatest, that is my personal opinon that he is, but all I am trying to do is show you he is in the top 3, whether a person is a fan of basketball or not they were fans of Michael Jordan.

I believe he was a great for his sport and a great athlete but like Rugby and Cricket, which in some ways are more global as far as international teams are concerned, it's just to much of a niche.

[Jerry!]

If that were true, people in America would at least know the name of cricket's or rugby's megastars. People all around the world were drawn to Jordan, whether they knew the game of baskteball before him or not, HE drew them to the game.

[Whirlysplat]

If that were true, people in America would at least know the name of cricket's or rugby's megastars. People all around the world were drawn to Jordan, whether they knew the game of baskteball before him or not, HE drew them to the game.

Super Ludacris did...... Jonah Lomu was offered a fortune to play gridiron and Ian Botham amazed Baseball stars by being able to hit some pitchers fast ball everytime in the 80's, when he visited L.A. Truth is in nations like India and Pakistan Cricket is much bigger. They have huge populations when we look at the world. They like basketball are all minority sports.

[Gamma Burst]

Easy answer:

Pelé.
Ali is a close second.

[Albiceleste]

Easy answer:

Pelé.
Ali is a close second.

Pelé is second to Maradona.

[Super_Ludacris]

Super Ludacris did...... Jonah Lomu was offered a fortune to play gridiron and Ian Botham amazed Baseball stars by being able to hit some pitchers fast ball everytime in the 80's, when he visited L.A. Truth is in nations like India and Pakistan Cricket is much bigger. They have huge populations when we look at the world. They like basketball are all minority sports.

I only know these people cause Ive been around the world and have stayed in places and know people of different nations and there sporting intrest. You say India and Pakistan have huge populations but Basketball is huge in China and America and is an Olympic Sport for nations like Brazil, Canada, Australia, Crotatia, Argentina, Lithuana, Angola, Puerto Rico, Mexico, Ghana, Nigeria (with competitive teams and established national leagues) and is way more profitable cause of the endorsment deals. Cricket aint seeing Basketball.

lol@Botham being able to go to America with his drug bust on his record. I believe him being banned was a newspiece. lol@ any Baseball team offering that Magnum PI looking fool a contract.

Holler at me when Cricket is an Olympic sport. Its not seeing Basketball. lol@ anyone thinking it does.

[Whirlysplat]

I only know these people cause Ive been around the world and have stayed in places and know people of different nations and there sporting intrest. You say India and Pakistan have huge populations but Basketball is huge in China and America and is an Olympic Sport for nations like Brazil, Canada, Australia, Crotatia, Argentina, Lithuana, Angola, Puerto Rico, Mexico, Ghana, Nigeria (with competitive teams and established national leagues) and is way more profitable cause of the endorsment deals. Cricket aint seeing Basketball.

lol@Botham being able to go to America with his drug bust on his record. I believe him being banned was a newspiece. lol@ any Baseball team offering that Magnum PI looking fool a contract.

Holler at me when Cricket is an Olympic sport. Its not seeing Basketball. lol@ anyone thinking it does.

Cricket hasn't been in the olympics since 1908. The reasons are hilarious.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A14612032

:)

Rugby was introduced into the Chinese armed forces to teach discipline and teamwork, they all play it as part of training. Botham never wanted to play Baseball he just amazed pro baseball players with his ability to smash them all over the place. Probably because the ball doesn't move in the same way in baseball. They are all minority sports next to real football (soccer). Why no world cup for Basketball? Why no World Cup for Baseball? They may be played in other countries but they are not the "national sports" of other nations, like Cricket, Soccer (real football) and Rugby are.

As for going around the world, many people have done that. ;)

[Super_Ludacris]

Basketball is way popular in China. Aint no chinese dudes playing that.

Basketball has the World Championships and the Olympics. 2 big tournaments as well as the FIBA tourney and NBA Playoffs.

And they are National Sports, I just said they were major leagues.


lol@ Cricket.

[Whirlysplat]

Basketball is way popular in China. Aint no chinese dudes playing that.

Basketball has the World Championships and the Olympics. 2 big tournaments as well as the FIBA tourney and NBA Playoffs.

And they are National Sports, I just said they were major leagues.


lol@ Cricket.

I'm no Cricket Player but it is the national sport of most ex commonwealth countries, including Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan, The West Indies etc. The Basketball World Championships....hahahahahahahahaha

Watched much? So who wins it? hahahahahahaha

Yes they are a National sport, in America!

[Hound55]

Actually basketball's probably the second most global sport after soccer...

And like with soccer, the World Championships are considered a bigger award (for most of the contending nations...) than basketball in the Olympics is.

[doih]

2/10 thread.

Why start a discussion on who is the greatest sportsman and then give examples of most popular sportsman? It's not the same thing.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=337337

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=179866