White Privilege

[Colossal Spoons]

Nope, I put a condom on my computer

[AndThePickles]

Everyone knows those things aren't very effective :o

[Colossal Spoons]

Spider-man! Spider-man!

[Goddessreicho]

TOtally freaking true.


You know, if a White guy stabs me with a knife, he could get 6 months in jail.
If he stabs a BLACK guy with a knife, he could go to prison for 50 years.

That's lunacy with a capital LOON.

Ok, I agree things like this happen all the time. One of the most devastating things to happen to any kind of student is social promotion. Who does this effect the most...black students. Is it any good to pass any kind of student who does not understand the curriculum and graduate them to stop them from being a pest in class (because of behavior problems) or because they are a great swimmer, tennis player, footballer, baseball star?

I have gone on so many interviews where people have taken a double take at my long European sounding name and my face. In fact several of them have even said, "Wow I didn't know you were black!" Or the ever popular, "You didn't sound black on the phone."

Gee, thank you?

When I was looking for apartments, it got even worse. "We don't allow dangerous dogs here." Oh really, so I can't bred fighting pitbulls, huh? "We have a strong moral stance against drugs and immoral behavior." So no strings of men or a meth lab, aww poo. Did my White friends get asked these things, not in least bit.

I had asked them to apply to the same places, just to see. And yep, the welcome speech changed.

Are different forms of racism active, of course. I don't see it as the same extremes, but it can be frustrating to live through on a regular basis. Just ask those people in Spain who didn't heckle Lewis Hamilton and now may not have a major race ran in their country. They were being jerks and now they have to live with the consequences, but the a**hats who were jerks don't think twice about it.

We all have to live with each other, it's how we do it that makes the most difference.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Are different forms of racism active, of course. I don't see it as the same extremes, but it can be frustrating to live through on a regular basis. Just ask those people in Spain who didn't heckle Lewis Hamilton and now may not have a major race ran in their country. They were being jerks and now they have to live with the consequences, but the a**hats who were jerks don't think twice about it.

We all have to live with each other, it's how we do it that makes the most difference.


THIS, is why I didn't vote "yes" or "no" in the thread's poorly formed question, "Is there such a thing as White Privilege?"...because the only correct answer is, Yes, and No.
There's White Privilege when a White person abuses his power.
But there isn't any White Privilege for millions of White people...and there are in fact instances, now, when Black people abuse their power.


Because my White friends and I HAVE been asked stuff like that before moving in to places.
YOU, got a racist landowner/manager....We didn't.
Therefore, there isn't a "WHITE PRIVILEGE", because if it was just a blanket privilege for "Whites", then...simply being White, would get you the privileges, and that does NOT happen, at all.


So, like I said before....there are good White people, there are bad White people.
There are good Black people, there are bad Black people.

There are White racists in positions of power.
There are Black racists in positions of power.

Trying to say that it's more common with White power, is pointless, because that does nothing to address racism when it's pointed in the opposite direction, and it does nothing to negate all of the instances where White people in power have helped Black people who were not in power.


It is so counterproductive to focus on White racism as the problem, when

RACISM

is the problem.


If 50 Black people don't get a job just because of their skin color...it is wrong, and something should be done, but that doesn't make it any less wrong when 1 White person doesn't get a job because of his skin color.

:huh:

[Mee]

Let's all peel our skin off! :up:

[Colossal Spoons]

Let's all peel our skin off! :up:

Ha! That guy's muscles are longer than ours, let's hate him!

and the cycle continues :down:

[AndThePickles]

Ha! That guy's muscles are longer than ours, let's hate him!

and the cycle continues :down:

I bleed more blood than you! :cmad:

[Erzengel]

http://www.clintvideo.com/tmp/white_eddie_murphy.jpg

[Colossal Spoons]

Frickin bleeder, go back to your country!

[Arkady Rossovich]

What do you think of the white privilege? Are you angry?

[Bubonic]

What do you think of the white privilege? Are you angry?

It's one of the many things that upset me, but getting angry never solves anything... Cept if your trying to get your blood pressure up and Hulk out. :bh:

No one really paid much mind to the medicare stats I posted, 3-4 pages back...
So when I bring cited proof that something is up, it isn't much concern...

[spideyboy_1111]

People hardly seem to want to hear me out on anything anyways, so I have to keep composure when replying.



Stereotypes sometimes do manifest themselves because of the self-fulfilling prophecy.
When media representations and peer interactions keep reminding you how to be your whole life, sometimes you get mixed up along the way and incorporate those notions into your budding identity.
In grade school something struck me, there was a little black kid called Randy who didn't fight the stereotypes imposed on him. While the other black kids were encouraged to lean in a certain direction, and internalized it as the right way to be, Randy was a point dexter.
The white kids felt he was free game to pick on as he didn't conform to their primitive assumptions of what a black kid should act like, and he received pressure from the black kids as well because there was a feeling he was rejecting a part of his identity.

Might seem like I'm just reaffirming your thought process, but what I'm pointing out is that so soon as these black kids weren't involving themselves in sports, weren't listening to the "right" music, and weren't conforming to expected behaviours, they were ostracized on both sides.





o i've definitely seen that, there seems to be alot people in the black community where if your not fit into there cookie cutter form, your ostracized. I had a friend who was a gay black male as well as in the punk scene, and he had a hard time fitting in with his own race because he felt all black people should be angry, be angry at whites, love hip hop and rap, and dress thugish. I felt sorry for him.

[spideyboy_1111]

double post

[Goddessreicho]

I just wanted to make a small announcement.

















My spicy meatloaf w/a citrus barbecue sauce was really yummy. :woot:

[terry78]

People hardly seem to want to hear me out on anything anyways, so I have to keep composure when replying.



Stereotypes sometimes do manifest themselves because of the self-fulfilling prophecy.
When media representations and peer interactions keep reminding you how to be your whole life, sometimes you get mixed up along the way and incorporate those notions into your budding identity.
In grade school something struck me, there was a little black kid called Randy who didn't fight the stereotypes imposed on him. While the other black kids were encouraged to lean in a certain direction, and internalized it as the right way to be, Randy was a point dexter.
The white kids felt he was free game to pick on as he didn't conform to their primitive assumptions of what a black kid should act like, and he received pressure from the black kids as well because there was a feeling he was rejecting a part of his identity.

Might seem like I'm just reaffirming your thought process, but what I'm pointing out is that so soon as these black kids weren't involving themselves in sports, weren't listening to the "right" music, and weren't conforming to expected behaviours, they were ostracized on both sides.



And when one of these assumptions is agreed upon, examples that seem to confirm the bias are overrepresented in the media.



Is that really privilege though?
I'm pretty sure that women would rather advance through merit in an equal society rather they objectify themselves for advancement.
The only reason tactics like that work is because we live in a sexist society.
So anytime a good looking women makes it anywhere in life, we can take comfort that she got that far, not because she's as smart as us, but because she's some sort of ****.

LOL, I know what you mean about the Randys of the black world. They basically act non-thuglike, and both white and black kids take carte blanche on knocking them down because they aren't a threat. That makes it even worse when both sides of the coin don't even include you. I have seen black dudes that act all hardcore and never get messed with, but the same black guy that hangs with the white dudes and acts a little more..geeky, will get cracked on, as if it means that because he's not acting tough, we can screw with him. That is honestly why so many of us do it, because we know we won't lose any face that way.


There was one comedian who said he missed the days when white guys were scared of us. :p

[moraldeficiency]

I just wanted to make a small announcement.

















My spicy meatloaf w/a citrus barbecue sauce was really yummy. :woot:

I'll be over later for the leftovers.

[Monster]

One word.

Equality.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

No one really paid much mind to the medicare stats I posted, 3-4 pages back...
So when I bring cited proof that something is up, it isn't much concern...Uh, that's because it didn't give us anything.

It said that Black people get worse care than White people.
Uhhh......I say Dragons get better care than Satyrs.
It wasn't proof of White Privilege. :huh:

If there is a privilege, that is bestowed upon White people, then, WHITE people must be able to benefit from it, based solely upon the color of their skin.
But there are millions of underprivileged White people, and millions of privileged Black people.



CASE-BY-CASE....for instance...I was just watching a documentary on PBS about these towns in Arkansas where all of the Black people were driven out, and to THIS day, no Black people live there....and it's perpetuated because racists hear about these Racist Utopias and move there when they retire, mainly because of (as one White guy directly told the Black filmmaker) the absence of Black people.


So, by this logic where you say that if something happens, it's the way things are, America is a segregated nation.
But that's not accurately reflecting the fact that I (White), just looked up and saw 3 Black people and 2 White people walk past on the street outside.

The way this thread was constructed....the poll could say,
"Is America Segregated?"

And then you'd either answer "Yes" or "No".

But neither of those answers are right, and neither of those answers are wrong.
There are towns in Arkansas where Blacks would be wise to stay outside the city limits.
But We've got every race, intermingling and ****ing and talking and laughing and working together here in Seattle.

Arkansas and Seattle are "America".
White people get poor health care....I KNOW this for a fact.
Therefore, being White does not ensure that you'll receive good health care.
So, are people treated better because they're White?
Sometimes yes. Not always.
There are Somalian Taxi cab drivers here who will not pick you up if you're White.
Does that mean Taxi drivers are racists against White people?
Sometimes.

It's pointless to try and say, "Well, 18 times a White person got an unnecessary amputation, but 24 times, a Black person got one....SO, see?, things are bad for Black people, because they get MORE unnecessary amputations!"

What about the 18 White people who got them? :dry:
Are you saying there's nothing wrong with that?
Of course not.
So, when you find injustice, you fight it.
When you find ignorant people who don't know which questions to ask, or how to be savvy when looking for health care, you try to educate them, Black AND White.


This whole concept is just trying to continue to blame White people for all of the problems many Black people suffer. It's fun to have a scapegoat, but it doesn't solve anything and doesn't address the real problem.



My Black boss will always choose an unqualified Black person over a highly qualified White person.
Where is the "White Privilege" there?
There are Black people who can go to college BECAUSE of the color of their skin.
I didn't get to go to college.
Where is the "White Privilege" there?

Live in the real world instead of a world of generalizations and avoidance of responsibility.

[Mr Sparkle]

but, I don't get it.
sure, some white people also have a hard time in life.
sure, I got that.
but, is it even up for discussion that black people, along with other minorities have a tougher time in a country still comprised of a white majority?

[Wilhelm-Scream]

but, I don't get it.
sure, some white people also have a hard time in life.
sure, I got that.
but, is it even up for discussion that black people, along with other minorities have a tougher time in a country still comprised of a white majority?You just perfectly illustrated my point. Thank you.

Is it even up for discussion that BLACK PEOPLE (and other minorities), have a TOUGHER time...?


Uh, hell yeah.

BLACK PEOPLE do not have a TOUGHER time.
That would be a racist generalization.
If I said, "Is it even up for discussion that Black people are more stupid and lazy than White people?".....how would that be?

Because there are a lot of stupid, lazy Black people and a lot of smart, ambitious White people.

But that doesn't make my family friend (who is a chemist making tons of money with some research firm, who is a pastor, a loving husband and father, and his band played at the opening ceremonies of the Winter Olympics) any less Black.


You skipped over my thing above....if 24 Black people get unnecessary amputations, and 18 White people get them, does that mean that Black people have a tougher time with unnecessary amputations than White people?!? Because it happened to 6 more Blacks than Whites?

Not in any way.

[Mr Sparkle]

You just perfectly illustrated my point. Thank you.

Is it even up for discussion that BLACK PEOPLE (and other minorities), have a TOUGHER time...?


Uh, hell yeah.

BLACK PEOPLE do not have a TOUGHER time.
That would be a racist generalization.
If I said, "Is it even up for discussion that Black people are more stupid and lazy than White people?".....how would that be?

Because there are a lot of stupid, lazy Black people and a lot of smart, ambitious White people.

But that doesn't make my family friend (who is a chemist making tons of money with some research firm, who is a pastor, a loving husband and father, and his band played at the opening ceremonies of the Winter Olympics) any less Black.


You skipped over my thing above....if 24 Black people get unnecessary amputations, and 18 White people get them, does that mean that Black people have a tougher time with unnecessary amputations than White people?!? Because it happened to 6 more Blacks than Whites?

Not in any way.

but you skipped over the part about " in a society comprised of a white majority" you seem be operating under the premise that race divisions either don't exist or are not a factor to be considered.
to say that a black man would have a more difficult time realizing his potential in a society comprised of a white majority is not " racist " it's just logical.
50 years ago the black man was still not considered to be " equal " amongst many people in the US, and other minorities as well.
you don't really think that all that prejudice and racist goodness has died off do you?
you do understand that we ( people like you, me and others) that think that all races are equal are the "minority" here right? (irony alert) and that in many instances racial preferences still play a major role in the decision making process of many individuals?

I mean, I'm not saying " give them reparations" just concede that they by definition WILL have a tougher time, I'm not being racist when I say this am I?
women have a tougher time succeeding in the male dominated business world, there are many women who do succeed, but does that remove the fact that in many positions on the job market women get paid less for doing the same jobs as men?
no, and to highlight that fact (or is it "uplight") is not sexist in the least.

[spideyboy_1111]

ignore*

[Mr Sparkle]

the ****?

[spideyboy_1111]

sorry, had 2 pages opened.. typed in the wrong one :-P

[November Rain]

This thread should probably be renamed the white rich privelege

generally poor people suffer the same, no matter how poor you are but it is still possible to exist there.

Then again, if you become an ex-pat you find the natives of other countries have their own privileges but travelling around as a westerner does open you up to more some other ones too, like being able to travel without learning another language based on the presumption everyone must speak english.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

but you skipped over the part about " in a society comprised of a white majority" you seem be operating under the premise that race divisions either don't exist or are not a factor to be considered.Because it's irrelevant. There are Whites, inside that majority, who are hyper-sensitive about even the appearance of racism and they overcompensate with preferential treatment of (or fear of) Black people.
Again, the fact that there are 30 White bosses, and only 9 Black bosses, doesn't mean that because I'm White, I enjoy more benefits than my Black boss, or that her life is more difficult than mine is.
To talk of "WHITE" privilege is making a racist generalization. You're making judgements about a group, based on their racial attributes.
"I'm White, so I have it easier than Black people have it."

Bull.
S***.

Even in a "majority of the time" - context....that's just as foolhardy as when Stormfront people use the fact that a higher percentage of Blacks are in jail than Whites to support the belief that Black people are just naturally thuggish and criminally minded...FOR THE MOST PART....like, "Okay, there ARE a lot of law-abiding Black people who go to church and have decent jobs....just, FOR THE MOST PART....Black people are criminals." :whatever:


to say that a black man would have a more difficult time realizing his potential in a society comprised of a white majority is not " racist " it's just logical.LOL....Wrong-o, pal....because right there you are assuming that the greater numbers of White people would make it more difficult for the Black man. You are taking it as a GIVEN, that:


the Black man would not be able to successfully co-exist with the White people.
The Whites would prefer White people, and shut out the Black people.
erm.......both assumptions, quite horrifyingly racist. :huh:



50 years ago the black man was still not considered to be " equal " amongst many people in the US, and other minorities as well.
you don't really think that all that prejudice and racist goodness has died off do you?I was JUST talking about entire towns in Arkansas where not one Black person lives, and the KKK thrives. Let's not waste time with stupid questions. :(
Again, you're just proving my point.
The problem isn't White Privilege....it's R.A.C.I.S.M.
All Whites are not racists...All Whites do not enjoy some kind of higher quality of life just because they are White.
The fact that they do in a certain town, means that there are a lot of racists in that town.
But believe me, if I went and tried to get a job in Compton or East L.A., I would run into the same thing.

Does that mean that our country has a Black and Mexican privilege?





I mean, I'm not saying " give them reparations" just concede that they by definition WILL have a tougher time, I'm not being racist when I say this am I?Again, yes you are...because you are assuming that the difference of race WILL, without a doubt, be a problem for the White members of the majority that the Black person encounters...why? Because, they are White and he is Black.
That is not THE case, and it is totally a racist generalization to assume that it is...obviously. :huh:


women have a tougher time succeeding in the male dominated business world, there are many women who do succeed, but does that remove the fact that in many positions on the job market women get paid less for doing the same jobs as men?
no, and to highlight that fact (or is it "uplight") is not sexist in the least.Sexist generalization.
The building where I work is chock full of high-powered female executives and entrepreneurs and I refuse to believe that Seattle, and my individual place of work, are just some kind of totally anomalous freak Utopian accidents...islands of reason and harmonious co-existence.

It's a harmfully simplistic view, where you make generalizations, based in the past, using them as a guide for how to deal with unknown people in the future.
A woman hears the horror stories from the corporate world of the 50's, 60's and 70's...decides that Men USUALLY want to keep women "in their place", so when she interviews with the male dude who owns the company, she sees that he's male, writes him off as a sexist, exudes a bitter, defensive, indignant demeanor, doesn't get the job, and goes forth "knowing" that it was because her breasts weren't big enough.

You're setting up a world where men shouldn't be free to own a company or excel, or bust ass to get to the top....and, where White people shouldn't either...hence the insanity of affirmative action, where we silently presume that anti-Black racism is based in truth, that Blacks can't really accomplish anything unless we give them a pass.....so a lazy Black kid who got straight C's takes the place of a studious White geek who got straight A's. (that is not an urban myth, btw. I watched this story on 60 Minutes about the phenomenon that was horrifying. Real life White students suffering because they're not Black.)

I'm just saying, just because there are more robberies than murders, it doesn't mean that robbery is worse than murder.
The problem is RACISM, and SEXISM, and a culture where the wealthy prosper at the expense of the poor.

It's pointless revenge fantasy masturbation to focus on WHITE privilege, or MALE sexism, or how terrible RICH PEOPLE are...because there are privileged Blacks, and men that suffer because of women in power, and great rich people who devote their lives to helping the poor, and poor people who are poor because they suck as human beings.




EDIT: A way to boil down what I'm saying, is...if you say that the greater numbers of Whites, must mean that a Black will find life among them to be difficult...you're saying that, because there are more Whites, there's a higher chance that you WILL run into one who is a racist who abuses his power (whether consciously or subconsciously).........which is like saying, since the numbers of Black men involved in violent crime are so high compared to the numbers for Whites, the more Black men you encounter, the higher the chance that one will eventually attack you.

So, if a White man is approaching on the left side of the street, and a Black man is approaching on the right side...you, as a White person, should take the left side, because it WILL be safer...that's just logic, not "racist".


:huh:

[Mr Sparkle]

Because it's irrelevant. There are Whites, inside that majority, who are hyper-sensitive about even the appearance of racism and they overcompensate with preferential treatment of (or fear of) Black people.
Again, the fact that there are 30 White bosses, and only 9 Black bosses, doesn't mean that because I'm White, I enjoy more benefits than my Black boss, or that her life is more difficult than mine is.
To talk of "WHITE" privilege is making a racist generalization. You're making judgements about a group, based on their racial attributes.
"I'm White, so I have it easier than Black people have it."

Bull.
S***.

Even in a "majority of the time" - context....that's just as foolhardy as when Stormfront people use the fact that a higher percentage of Blacks are in jail than Whites to support the belief that Black people are just naturally thuggish and criminally minded...FOR THE MOST PART....like, "Okay, there ARE a lot of law-abiding Black people who go to church and have decent jobs....just, FOR THE MOST PART....Black people are criminals." :whatever:

but, outside the "There are Whites, inside that majority, who are hyper-sensitive about even the appearance of racism and they overcompensate with preferential treatment of (or fear of) Black people."
this post has absolutely nothing to do with the " white majority" context does it?
just to clarify I wasn't even talking about " white privilege" whether that's the topic or not, I made an observation about the fact that given the cultural state of the united states and it's history in racial relations, to think that playing filed has magically leveled over the years is rather hopeful,in fact, it's actually pretty naive.
again, I have conceded that many white people struggle and hey, you know what? in some cases white people are biased against one another based upon class....:eek: who would've thought?! class divisions still alive in todays society?
and I have no doubt that there are many rich people " hyper sensitive" to this, that really doesn't remove the fact that this division between the classes exists.
I don't know what the whole stormfront example thing was going towards, but let me assure you that much against your own personal experiences black people do have a tougher time in society, any minority in any place in the world does.
again it's not racist, it's just social dynamics.


LOL....Wrong-o, pal....because right there you are assuming that the greater numbers of White people would make it more difficult for the Black man. You are taking it as a GIVEN, that:

the Black man would not be able to successfully co-exist with the White people.
The Whites would prefer White people, and shut out the Black people.erm.......both assumptions, quite horrifyingly racist. :huh:

no, those are not my assumptions at all.
some whites would prefer white people that's a given, it's not even up for debate, the black community has these same tendencies within it, if it was inverted and black people where the minority in power ( key thing there)
both economic and social, I would be making the same observations on the development of white people in this hypothetical society.
I'm basing my opinion on documented race relation dynamics, I haven't even used personal observation because, well that seems immaterial to the discussion, I could come up with several examples as valid as your black boss and others, you however operate under the assumption that


a majority will in no way favor members of it's own
the racial dynamics in your country applied until like the 90's and then ceased to exist and everyone loved each other equallywhich seems a little naive, but then, what do I know? to each his own I guess.


I was JUST talking about entire towns in Arkansas where not one Black person lives, and the KKK thrives. Let's not waste time with stupid questions. :(
Again, you're just proving my point.
The problem isn't White Privilege....it's R.A.C.I.S.M.
All Whites are not racists...All Whites do not enjoy some kind of higher quality of life just because they are White.
The fact that they do in a certain town, means that there are a lot of racists in that town.
But believe me, if I went and tried to get a job in Compton or East L.A., I would run into the same thing.

Does that mean that our country has a Black and Mexican privilege?

but that's thing isn't it? you seem to assume that only the people in these towns were part of this racial dynamic, they weren't.
on the contrary, you kind of just proved my point.
if you had a tough time in towns with a Mexican or Black majority, then imagine an entire country with a Mexican or Black majority.
one that had a history of a deep racial divide not a hundred years old, would you really think that the people born INTO the majority would not have at least a marginal advantage?
again, you seem to be arguing about "privilege" and while I concede that was the topic, that was not the nature of my observation.





Again, yes you are...because you are assuming that the difference of race WILL, without a doubt, be a problem for the White members of the majority that the Black person encounters...why? Because, they are White and he is Black.
That is not THE case, and it is totally a racist generalization to assume that it is...obviously. :huh:

really?:huh: wow, aren't you assuming that the race WILL, without a dount NOT be a problem to the members of the white majority?
and what are you basing your assumption on by the way?
casual personal observation? seems like a rather weak argument to make.
because you're stating that this would NOT be the case.

how on earth could you make such an assertion?:huh: given the last 70 years of race relations history in your country? that's mind blowing.


Sexist generalization.
The building where I work is chock full of high-powered female executives and entrepreneurs and I refuse to believe that Seattle, and my individual place of work, are just some kind of totally anomalous freak Utopian accidents...islands of reason and harmonious co-existence.

It's a harmfully simplistic view, where you make generalizations, based in the past, using them as a guide for how to deal with unknown people in the future.
A woman hears the horror stories from the corporate world of the 50's, 60's and 70's...decides that Men USUALLY want to keep women "in their place", so when she interviews with the male dude who owns the company, she sees that he's male, writes him off as a sexist, exudes a bitter, defensive, indignant demeanor, doesn't get the job, and goes forth "knowing" that it was because her breasts weren't big enough.

You're setting up a world where men shouldn't be free to own a company or excel, or bust ass to get to the top....and, where White people shouldn't either...hence the insanity of affirmative action, where we silently presume that anti-Black racism is based in truth, that Blacks can't really accomplish anything unless we give them a pass.....so a lazy Black kid who got straight C's takes the place of a studious White geek who got straight A's. (that is not an urban myth, btw. I watched this story on 60 Minutes about the phenomenon that was horrifying. Real life White students suffering because they're not Black.)

I'm just saying, just because there are more robberies than murders, it doesn't mean that robbery is worse than murder.
The problem is RACISM, and SEXISM, and a culture where the wealthy prosper at the expense of the poor.

It's pointless revenge fantasy masturbation to focus on WHITE privilege, or MALE sexism, or how terrible RICH PEOPLE are...because there are privileged Blacks, and men that suffer because of women in power, and great rich people who devote their lives to helping the poor, and poor people who are poor because they suck as human beings.


wow, casual personal observation again.
well, regardless of what you personally choose to believe, studies have proven this, not made by me, by the way, people that dedicate their lives to study race/sex relations in society, this is not a " generalization" these are studies with proven facts, whether you refuse to " believe" in them or not, is an immaterial as you refusing to believe in gravity.
so far all of your posts in this matter have included your observations, not taking into account what other people have experienced, your observations might I add, as a member of the majority.
and you accuse me of "simplistic" views when yours don't seem to extend past your own intellect?
please, I wasn't making an observation based upon the women I see in the workplace, I was making an argument based upon proven fact.
fact Wil, not " my black/woman/crippled/gay boss lives happily therefore all gays, blacks, women and handicapped MUST live happily" type of argument.
you talk about how I shouldn't generalize and then engage in both generalization and speculation like nobody's business.
what the hell? so basically you're saying that women earn less in the same positions as men because they exude a bitter hostile vibe and i'm the sexist one here?
don't make laugh man, that's misguided to say the least, and this is the second time that you talk to me about some program you see and use as some sort of rule of thumb for every aspect of the issue.
I'm sure that affirmative action has created a raw deal, I'm sure that there is a culture of victimhood on the side of minorities these are all things I happen to be sure off because people studying these aspects of society have pretty much confirmed.
but, unlike you, I don't get to casually dismiss all the other studies that ratify that race is still a factor in the US, because they don't square well with my particular world view.
that, my friend IS simplistic. whether we happen to agree on the root of the problem or not? yes, we agree that the problem is racism and sexism.
and the fact that the rich prosper while the poor fade away.
does not detract from the fact, the fact that a member of a minority will have a tougher time succeeding in a society.
I wish it was different, but it's not up to me.

[Mr Sparkle]

EDIT: A way to boil down what I'm saying, is...if you say that the greater numbers of Whites, must mean that a Black will find life among them to be difficult...you're saying that, because there are more Whites, there's a higher chance that you WILL run into one who is a racist who abuses his power (whether consciously or subconsciously).........which is like saying, since the numbers of Black men involved in violent crime are so high compared to the numbers for Whites, the more Black men you encounter, the higher the chance that one will eventually attack you.

So, if a White man is approaching on the left side of the street, and a Black man is approaching on the right side...you, as a White person, should take the left side, because it WILL be safer...that's just logic, not "racist".


:huh:

no, you're making your example silly in order to make your point stronger and that's wrong, it surprises me you'd do something like that.

wouldn't a more valid argument be that in certain violent neighborhoods women would do well to not walk after certain hours alone ( don't people give this advice all the time) is that " sexist"?
because I lived in a bad neighborhood for the first oh 12 years of my life and hey, everyone was pretty nice to me.
so that advice is stupid and sexist, based soley upon my own personal experience, advice be damned. women should be free to walk at all times in all sorts of neighborhoods and they have as much a chance getting mugged, raped or killed in the good neighborhoods as they do in the bad ones right?

uh...no, it's not as simple as "it's not the neighborhoods, the problem is CRIME" sorry dude, just doesn't work that way.

[Bubonic]

Because it's irrelevant. There are Whites, inside that majority, who are hyper-sensitive about even the appearance of racism and they overcompensate with preferential treatment of (or fear of) Black people.
Again, the fact that there are 30 White bosses, and only 9 Black bosses, doesn't mean that because I'm White, I enjoy more benefits than my Black boss, or that her life is more difficult than mine is.
To talk of "WHITE" privilege is making a racist generalization. You're making judgements about a group, based on their racial attributes.
"I'm White, so I have it easier than Black people have it."

Bull.
S***.

If something is really happening, then it is a racist reality, not racist generalization.
It isn't just a question that there are more whites then blacks, although that plays a factor in the end.

Even in a "majority of the time" - context....that's just as foolhardy as when Stormfront people use the fact that a higher percentage of Blacks are in jail than Whites to support the belief that Black people are just naturally thuggish and criminally minded...FOR THE MOST PART....like, "Okay, there ARE a lot of law-abiding Black people who go to church and have decent jobs....just, FOR THE MOST PART....Black people are criminals." :whatever:

Yet the criminality espoused by a disproportionate amount of blacks can be seen as linked to the long term effects of living in a white society which exercised white privilege, and more more explicit racism in the past.

LOL....Wrong-o, pal....because right there you are assuming that the greater numbers of White people would make it more difficult for the Black man. You are taking it as a GIVEN, that:

the Black man would not be able to successfully co-exist with the White people.
The Whites would prefer White people, and shut out the Black people.erm.......both assumptions, quite horrifyingly racist. :huh:

The assumptions themselves aren't horrifyingly racist.
It isn't a question of whether or not a black people are able to co-exist adequately with whites, but rather that there are many obstacles which make the task more difficult, and make equal participation not as prevalent as it should be.

Whites have been shown to prefer white people, it might offend you, it should offend you, but someone mentioning it shouldn't point them out as racist.

I was JUST talking about entire towns in Arkansas where not one Black person lives, and the KKK thrives. Let's not waste time with stupid questions. :(
Again, you're just proving my point.
The problem isn't White Privilege....it's R.A.C.I.S.M.
All Whites are not racists...All Whites do not enjoy some kind of higher quality of life just because they are White.
The fact that they do in a certain town, means that there are a lot of racists in that town.
But believe me, if I went and tried to get a job in Compton or East L.A., I would run into the same thing.

Does that mean that our country has a Black and Mexican privilege?

Racism isn't the exclusive tool of the racist. It exist at many levels of society.
Otherwise decent people are sometimes inadvertently racist.
Just because there are small niches where minorties might have their own privilege amongst themselves, the fact that your using Compton as an example shows that where black/hispanic privilege exist, conditions aren't very cherry.

Again, yes you are...because you are assuming that the difference of race WILL, without a doubt, be a problem for the White members of the majority that the Black person encounters...why? Because, they are White and he is Black.
That is not THE case, and it is totally a racist generalization to assume that it is...obviously. :huh:

Again, stating a the reality that minorities have a harder time within a white settler colony isn't racist.


Sexist generalization.
The building where I work is chock full of high-powered female executives and entrepreneurs and I refuse to believe that Seattle, and my individual place of work, are just some kind of totally anomalous freak Utopian accidents...islands of reason and harmonious co-existence.

It's a harmfully simplistic view, where you make generalizations, based in the past, using them as a guide for how to deal with unknown people in the future.
A woman hears the horror stories from the corporate world of the 50's, 60's and 70's...decides that Men USUALLY want to keep women "in their place", so when she interviews with the male dude who owns the company, she sees that he's male, writes him off as a sexist, exudes a bitter, defensive, indignant demeanor, doesn't get the job, and goes forth "knowing" that it was because her breasts weren't big enough.

You're setting up a world where men shouldn't be free to own a company or excel, or bust ass to get to the top....and, where White people shouldn't either...hence the insanity of affirmative action, where we silently presume that anti-Black racism is based in truth, that Blacks can't really accomplish anything unless we give them a pass.....so a lazy Black kid who got straight C's takes the place of a studious White geek who got straight A's. (that is not an urban myth, btw. I watched this story on 60 Minutes about the phenomenon that was horrifying. Real life White students suffering because they're not Black.)

I'm just saying, just because there are more robberies than murders, it doesn't mean that robbery is worse than murder.
The problem is RACISM, and SEXISM, and a culture where the wealthy prosper at the expense of the poor.

It's pointless revenge fantasy masturbation to focus on WHITE privilege, or MALE sexism, or how terrible RICH PEOPLE are...because there are privileged Blacks, and men that suffer because of women in power, and great rich people who devote their lives to helping the poor, and poor people who are poor because they suck as human beings.

So we don't live in a racist and sexist society, we just live in a society of racist and sexist?
It is easy to assert these things as a white male.
Obviously there are powerful women and minorities, but it is argued, and quite well, that the way the system operates still benefits white males to disproportionately achieve positions of success.

EDIT: A way to boil down what I'm saying, is...if you say that the greater numbers of Whites, must mean that a Black will find life among them to be difficult...you're saying that, because there are more Whites, there's a higher chance that you WILL run into one who is a racist who abuses his power (whether consciously or subconsciously).........which is like saying, since the numbers of Black men involved in violent crime are so high compared to the numbers for Whites, the more Black men you encounter, the higher the chance that one will eventually attack you.

So, if a White man is approaching on the left side of the street, and a Black man is approaching on the right side...you, as a White person, should take the left side, because it WILL be safer...that's just logic, not "racist".


:huh:

I don't see how they are same thing.
White privilege is a system of unearned benefits, minority criminality is one of the results of the racist roots of North America. :huh:

[moraldeficiency]

Everyone here should just read guns, germs and steel. It explains all this in a far shorter word count.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

but, outside the "There are Whites, inside that majority, who are hyper-sensitive about even the appearance of racism and they overcompensate with preferential treatment of (or fear of) Black people."
this post has absolutely nothing to do with the " white majority" context does it?
just to clarify I wasn't even talking about " white privilege" whether that's the topic or not, I made an observation about the fact that given the cultural state of the united states and it's history in racial relations, to think that playing filed has magically leveled over the years is rather hopeful,in fact, it's actually pretty naive.
It's pretty offensive to suggest that I think it "magically" leveled, when I never said that it was level, Why do you continue to ignore my mention of entire TOWNS, today, in 2008, where it isn't level, literally in ANY way? :huh:...and especially in light of the fact that where it is level, it was often not due to "magic", but due to amazing courage, perseverance and struggle, by both Blacks and Whites alike.

You are obviously totally misunderstanding what my point is.

again, I have conceded that many white people struggleGreat...then you must understand why I take issue with the framing of this thread...as I said:

"IS there any such thing as White Privilege?.....Yes, OR No ?"

The correct answer is "YES, and NO...You can only take it on a case-by-case basis, because we can not predict the behavior of individuals based only upon their skin color."




I don't know what the whole stormfront example thing was going towards, but let me assure you that much against your own personal experiences black people do have a tougher time in society, any minority in any place in the world does.
again it's not racist, it's just social dynamics.Uh, it's freaking obvious what my point was. :huh:

Racists see that MOST of a group share an attribute, and then feel justified in behaving as if ALL of the members of the group can be written off as "probably" sharing that attribute.
That's what this talk of "White Privilege" is all about, and the reason for the heavy emphasis on numbers, and majority.
"Yeah, some White people are decent (-but let's not think about THEM too hard, because I'm so angry at the injustices that go on because of the OTHER ones-) But FOR THE MOST part, they "stick to their own", so it will ALWAYS be a harder life for a Non-White.

I proved that that's not true, because based on something as unrelated as geography, it COULD be harder on the White!
And a Black Lawyer's kid is NOT going to have as hard a time as a White Crackwhore's kid, who is born addicted and sexually abused by Johns and abandoned and who was never sent to school. Sorry, if you think he will, you are wrong.
Lol, you people are still acting like dog food tastes like caviar IF a White person is eating it. :whatever:




you however operate under the assumption that
a majority will in no way favor members of it's own
the racial dynamics in your country applied until like the 90's and then ceased to exist and everyone loved each other equallywhich seems a little naive, but then, what do I know? to each his own I guess.Proof that you are not understanding my point at all because th^t couldn't be more wrong.
If you're listening at all, you'll see that I'm saying that, uh...I can't believe I even have to go over it again...:huh:...There is no privilege for ALL Whites, and ALL Blacks are not underprivileged.
The key word is SOME...and my ENTIRE point has been that there are bad, racist Whites, and good, non-racist Whites...so there is NO wisdom or benefit in making blanket generalizations about their GROUP of humanity. It HAS to be on a case-by-case basis.

You don't pull an Iraq War intervention and knock out racist practices by Whites by assuming that at SOME point, a White WILL pull them.
You catch a White pulling them, and then stop it, and address the root causes.




but that's thing isn't it? you seem to assume that only the people in these towns were part of this racial dynamic, they weren't.
on the contrary, you kind of just proved my point.
if you had a tough time in towns with a Mexican or Black majority, then imagine an entire country with a Mexican or Black majority.Uh...you know what?
Compton and East L.A. aren't "countries". they're part of America...proving that numbers, and majorities, are not the be all/end all issue...because if Whites are the majority in America...how come I can go to an American city, and suffer BECAUSE I'm White?!
See?



would you really think that the people born INTO the majority would not have at least a marginal advantage?Racist bologna.
If I can show you millions of White people who started out without advantages, and millions of Black people who started out with more advantages than they started out with, then *b00m*...Whites aren't born into a marginal advantage.
And guess what?
That's reality.
This reminds me of Kanye's stupidity, completely ignoring the fact that, erm...there were a lot of WHITE people in New Orleans...so it obviously wasn't about Bush's preference for White people.


again, you seem to be arguing about "privilege" and while I concede that was the topic, that was not the nature of my observation.You should probably go make your own topic because everything I say here is regarding the absurd notion that you have a head start just because you're born white in America.








really?:huh: wow, aren't you assuming that the race WILL, without a dount NOT be a problem to the members of the white majority?I have no idea where you're getting this...unless you're squinting and on 4 buttons of peyote, browsing the Hype from your laptop in a packed bar on Disco Ladies Night. :huh:




and what are you basing your assumption on by the way?
casual personal observation?You've had a problem with this before, and I'll never understand it.
You act as if, again, it is WORSE, to get an unnecessary amputation, for 24 Black people, than it would be for 18 White people.
Believe me, it's bad for everyone.
When it happens to a White person, they don't go, "You know, I thought I was devastated and that my life was over...but then, I stopped and realized that, at least this doesn't happen to THAT many of us Whites, and now, I've got a new lease on life!!!"

Please.


I was making an argument based upon proven fact.
fact Wil, not " my black/woman/crippled/gay boss lives happily therefore all gays, blacks, women and handicapped MUST live happily" type of argument.
you talk about how I shouldn't generalize and then engage in both generalization and speculation like nobody's business.
what the hell? so basically you're saying that women earn less in the same positions as men because they exude a bitter hostile vibe and i'm the sexist one here?I think, as a usually really intelligent person who obviously gets a little too emotional about race issues, you should've looked at th^t part of your post and edited it out, because it's offensively ******. Wow.


don't make laugh man, that's misguided to say the least, and this is the second time that you talk to me about some program you see and use as some sort of rule of thumb for every aspect of the issue.Yes, I'm sorry that I'm really interested in keeping up with these issues and learning about what's going on in other parts of the world, instead of just getting a 2nd Hand impression, and prejudices based on faceless numbers, and hunkering down in a static state of resentment that has no basis in reality. Sorry, not for me.





Hahaha, you're a racist. :(

[Mr Sparkle]

minority criminality has roots in poverty.
also in many, many problems in the minorities mindset.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Whites have been shown to prefer white people, it might offend you, it should offend you, but someone mentioning it shouldn't point them out as racist.So, am I being punked?!

Are you really that oblivious to your own racism?!

Here's what's offensive...."Whites have been shown to prefer Whites."
WHAT....does that have to do with me, and my friend who is Black.
I am White and by a mile, I'd prefer to spend time with him, (because we instantly get along and laugh and talk about the same stuff), over, like MOST of the White people I know.

So what do we gain, by saying, "Whites prefer being with Whites. How do we know? Because, it has been SHOWN." ? :dry:






Again, stating a the reality that minorities have a harder time within a white settler colony isn't racist.UH, lol, in light of the fact that that statement is bulls***....erm, yeah, yeah it is a ****ing disgusting, racist lie.
Sorry, maybe one day you'll come out from behind that veil of race-hatred and realize it. *shrug*




White privilege is a system of unearned benefits,Oh, like affirmative action?

[Wilhelm-Scream]

minority criminality has roots in poverty.
also in many, many problems in the minorities mindset.And I guess when White people are criminals, it's just because they're plain old "bad people".

I see.

:whatever:

[Mr Sparkle]

It's pretty offensive to suggest that I think it "magically" leveled, when I never said that it was level, Why do you continue to ignore my mention of entire TOWNS, today, in 2008, where it isn't level, literally in ANY way? ...and especially in light of the fact that where it is level, it was often not due to "magic", but due to amazing courage, perseverance and struggle, by both Blacks and Whites alike.

You are obviously totally misunderstanding what my point is.

and you're operating on a complete misunderstanding of what MY point was.
plus, aside from the entire towns bit, there are places were the integration has taken taken place and the playing field is still not level.
that's the point.

Great...then you must understand why I take issue with the framing of this thread...as I said:

"IS there any such thing as White Privilege?.....Yes, OR No ?"

The correct answer is "YES, and NO...You can only take it on a case-by-case basis, because we can not predict the behavior of individuals based only upon their skin color."

all well and good, all unrelated to my post.


Uh, it's freaking obvious what my point was. :huh:

Racists see that MOST of a group share an attribute, and then feel justified in behaving as if ALL of the members of the group can be written off as "probably" sharing that attribute.
That's what this talk of "White Privilege" is all about, and the reason for the heavy emphasis on numbers, and majority.
"Yeah, some White people are decent (-but let's not think about THEM too hard, because I'm so angry at the injustices that go on because of the OTHER ones-) But FOR THE MOST part, they "stick to their own", so it will ALWAYS be a harder life for a Non-White.

I proved that that's not true, because based on something as unrelated as geography, it COULD be harder on the White!
And a Black Lawyer's kid is NOT going to have as hard a time as a White Crackwhore's kid, who is born addicted and sexually abused by Johns and abandoned and who was never sent to school. Sorry, if you think he will, you are wrong.
Lol, you people are still acting like dog food tastes like caviar IF a white person is eating it

uh, actually you seem to be under the wrong impression.
I have stated over and over again that this " trait" this tendency to favor those in the group that you feel you most belong to is unavoidable.
you keep saying that we should look at this on a case by case basis.
that has no point here because we are making a statement on the general environment.
the whole " white people can suffer too" thing is endearing though irrelevant.
hey, Oprah is super rich, she was raped and came from a poor family, I guess this must mean that all rape victims from poor families CAN achieve success, wow, so good on them.
but that's not the question, the question is if it's harder for them than the majority, the majority that didn't have to go through these trials.
:huh:

I guess we would have to look at it on a case by case basis.

hahahaha! again, the fact that you cling to this notion of a racial equality that doesn't exist is strange frankly, I don't see why you do it.



Proof that you are not understanding my point at all because th^t is couldn't be more wrong.
If you're listening at all, you'll see that I'm saying that, uh...I can't believe I even have to go over it again...:huh:...There is no privilege for ALL Whites, and ALL Blacks are not underprivileged.
The key word is SOME...and my ENTIRE point has been that there are bad, racist Whites, and good, non-racist Whites...so there is NO wisdom or benefit in making blanket generalizations about their GROUP of humanity. It HAS to be on a case-by-case basis.

and had you taken a minute to read my statement, the one you actually answered to, you would have seen that the word "privilege" is not in it.
so, uh...while it's good that you have this grand point you are trying to make it happens to be unrelated to mine.
as so far I have only stated the socially proven fact that individuals will likely have a more difficult time as members of a minority in society.



Uh...you know what?
Compton and East L.A. aren't "countries". they're part of America...proving that numbers, and majorities, are not the be all/end all issue...because if Whites are the majority in America...how come I can go to an American city, and suffer BECAUSE I'm White?!
See?

hahaha, because you're the minority in that community.

see?
but I'm sure you think that's totally unrelated.



Racist bologna.
If I can show you millions of White people who started out without advantages, and millions of Black people who started out with more advantages than they started out with, then *b00m*...Whites aren't born into a marginal advantage.
And guess what?
That's reality.
Thid reminds me of Kanye's stupidity, completely ignoring the fact that, erm...there were a lot of WHITE people in New Orleans...so it obviously wasn't about Bush's preference for White people.

blah, don't be stupid.
you know I meant on a societal scale, don't zoom back into specific cases just because these would suit your argument.
I said

"would you really think that the people born INTO the majority would not have at least a marginal advantage?"

that was my question, no "do you think white people don't suffer or are ever victims of racism, because they are all born rich and devoid of problems?"
see, that question doesn't make sense, but that's the question you answered.
answer MY question then we can continue this more effectively.

social science would say yes.
you would say no?



You should probably go make your own topic because everything I say here is regarding the absurd notion that you have a headstart just because you're born white in America.

no, I shouldn't, and we have talked about this before. I wasn't derailing a thread or anything, I made an observation very closely related to the topic discussed, you're doing what you usually chastise people for doing in th religion threads so please don't.



I have no idea where you're getting this...unless you're squinting and on 4 buttons of peyote, browsing the Hype from your laptop in a packed bar on Disco Ladies Night. :huh:

from your response wil, from your response.




You've had a problem with this before, and I'll never understand it.
You act as if, again, it is WORSE, to get an unnecessary amputation, for 24 Black people, than it would be for 18 White people.
Believe me, it's bad for everyone.
When it happens to a White person, they don't go, "You know, I thought I was devastated and that my life was over...but then, I stopped and realized that, at least this doesn't happen to THAT many of us Whites, and now, I've got a new lease on life!!!"

Please.

what are you even basing this on?:huh:
all said was this.

"but, I don't get it.
sure, some white people also have a hard time in life.
sure, I got that.
but, is it even up for discussion that black people, along with other minorities have a tougher time in a country still comprised of a white majority?"

I don't see anything about amputations, I don't see anything about white people not suffering, what I see is a specific observation about race relations in the US.
as is applicable anywhere in the world, in my own country....everywhere.
what about this sparks such raw outrage in you that you can't understand that this is not something I made up, or gathered from my own observations, this is something that has been studied and proven beyond the confines of SHH.


I think, as a usually really intelligent person who obviously gets a little too emotional about race issues, you should've looked at th^t part of your post and edited it out, because it's offensively ******. Wow.

ha! yeah, I get so emotional that I respond to posts with completely unrelated rants.
:o
that's how emotional about race I get.
then I start projecting all over the place.

because I get emotional.




Yes, I'm sorry that I'm really interested in keeping up with these issues and learning about what's going on in other parts of the world, instead of just getting a 2nd Hand impression, and prejudices based on faceless numbers, and hunkering down in a static state of resentment that has no basis in relaity. Sorry, not for me.





Hahaha, you're a racist. :(


ahahahaha! now this was sad.
you make it seem as if watching a segment on 60 minutes ( which takes what? an hour by definition) is somehow more enlightened that taking into account YEARS of study about social dynamics.

ahahahaha! I'll give you this Wil, you are creative.

[Mr Sparkle]

And I guess when White people are criminals, it's just because they're plain old "bad people".

I see.

:whatever:

hahahaha! I was speaking about the roots of minority criminality not majority.
I never said or even implied that white people had other motivations, if you had looked closely you would've seen that I was actually broadening Bubonic's oversimplification of the matter.

don't get all "emotional" Wil, you're kinda throwing logic out the door.:cwink:

[Bubonic]

So, am I being punked?!

Are you really that oblivious to your own racism?!

Here's what's offensive...."Whites have been shown to prefer Whites."
WHAT....does that have to do with me, and my friend who is Black.
I am White and by a mile, I'd prefer to spend time with him, (because we instantly get along and laugh and talk about the same stuff), over, like MOST of the White people I know.

So what do we gain, by saying, "Whites prefer being with Whites. How do we know? Because, it has been SHOWN." ? :dry:

Perhaps the problem is I'm looking at things from more of a sociological/anthropological perspective, and your looking at it at an individual level, especially within your own reality and experiences.

UH, lol, in light of the fact that that statement is bulls***....erm, yeah, yeah it is a ****ing disgusting, racist lie.
Sorry, maybe one day you'll come out from behind that veil of race-hatred and realize it. *shrug*I'm not masked by racial hatred, I am not a racist for delving into socio/historical topics that make you uneasy due to your own form of racism, which some would refer too as subliminal racism.

Subliminal racism : A subconscious racism that reflects a conflict of interest between competing value sets. On one side, seemingly enlightened people may endorse the principle of equality; on the other side, they will reject the means to achieve that goal on principled grounds if cost or inconvenience are involved.
The end result? Nothing happens, and the prevailing (and racialized) distribution of power, privilege, and property remains intact.

Oh, like affirmative action?^Ibid. :cwink:

[Wilhelm-Scream]

and you're operating on a complete misunderstanding of what MY point was.
plus, aside from the entire towns bit, there are places were the integration has taken taken place and the playing field is still not level.
that's the point.As I think back over what I read, the thread that seemed to run through it was that
I (Wilhelm) think there is no more racism in America and that Blacks never suffer unfair treatment by Whites because of racism.
It will always be harder to be a Black person in America than it is to be a White person.Hahahaha. Without looking back, that was the idea I saw repeated.
Maybe you could refocus and correct me, but if those were your points, they're both incorrect.








uh, actually you seem to be under the wrong impression.
I have stated over and over again that this " trait" this tendency to favor those in the group that you feel you most belong to is unavoidable.So...am I mutant? Because I effortlessly avoid it. :huh:

Are you saying that I'm not HUMAN?!?!? :eek:
Also, if that's the kind of science you're reading?...where a tendency in the majority dictates a response in the whole?...wh00....That's like Naziland.



you keep saying that we should look at this on a case by case basis.
that has no point here because we are making a statement on the general environment.
the whole " white people can suffer too" thing is endearing though irrelevant.
hey, Oprah is super rich, she was raped and came from a poor family, I guess this must mean that all rape victims from poor families CAN achieve success, wow, so good on them.[/quote]Quite the opposite. It proves that SOME can. It proves nothing about ALL of them...It makes no statement about "ALL" of them, as you have, when you said that it will "ALWAYS" be harder for a Black person.
Nope....I guaran-****ing-TEE you that when Oprah has a kid, that kid will have more advantages, and have an easier time in life, than a White kid with Down Syndrome born to a Welfare Mother with an abusive Husband in Wyoming, next door to a Meth Lab.

The fact that Oprah is a very rare exception, is irrelevant...because of the foolhardy extremity of your assertion of an absolute.
*B00M*, you are wrong, and I am right.
That's why generalizations suck...I'm free to say that there is a lot of egregious racism in our society, you try to say that this is "ALWAYS" the case. I'm right, you're wrong.
Good night. :)
That's because I'm not a racist and you have unresolved anti-White racism.




as so far I have only stated the socially proven fact that individuals will likely have a more difficult time as members of a minority in society.Aw, :( Don't be disingenuous now to avoid losing.
You did NOT say "likely have a more difficult time", at all...you said they'd "ALWAYS" have a more difficult time.
Humungous difference.
I'm not "likely" to win the lottery.
That doesn't mean I could NEVER win it. :o




hahaha, because you're the minority in that community.

see?
but I'm sure you think that's totally unrelated.It's totally relevant, to my stated facts that:
A national majority of White people does not equal a blanket, free ride for all White people or unfair disadvantages for all Black people.
The ONLY way to deal with charges of racial injustice is on a case-by-case basis, because you can not predict the behavior of an individual by his skin color, to think that you could, would be racist.




blah, don't be stupid.
you know I meant on a societal scale, don't zoom back into specific cases just because these would suit your argument.Uh, I meant on a societal scale as well, when I said "MILLIONS".


"would you really think that the people born INTO the majority would not have at least a marginal advantage?"Their race is really very irrelevant...as I've shown.
It could depend on genetics, family life, geography, economy, education...LOL, again, the 100% invisible White trash, unemployed, unemployable, drug addicted, uneducated, dead end, mentally ill WHITE PERSON, Hahahahaha.....They just show their pale face and all of their problems become like monarch butterflies and bluebirds compared to the Black people with the exact same problems...God bless that pale face!




no, I shouldn't, and we have talked about this before. I wasn't derailing a thread or anything, I made an observation very closely related to the topic discussed, you're doing what you usually chastise people for doing in th religion threads so please don't.Pff, I wasn't saying it in a "Get out of the thread, Troll!" way...I just meant that I am addressing the topic, and you start to address my address of the topic, and then when you're wrong, you say, "Well, I'm not talking about the topic."
As I said above, I have no idea what you are trying to say, except for a bunch of stuff that's been proven to be false.











what are you even basing this on?:huh:
all said was this.The only evidence in this thread has been Bubonic's mention of an article that said that Black people don't get antiretroviral drugs for AIDS and they get unnecessary amputations, etc.






ha! yeah, I get so emotional that I respond to posts with completely unrelated rants.

that's how emotional about race I get.
then I start projecting all over the place.

because I get emotional.Hahaha,....yeah. :D







ahahahaha! now this was sad.
you make it seem as if watching a segment on 60 minutes ( which takes what? an hour by definition) is somehow more enlightened that taking into account YEARS of study about social dynamics.

ahahahaha! I'll give you this Wil, you are creative.lol, again, it's like...you're not even reading what I'm saying.

I said, it DOES happen, because I saw the fall out from it in real lives...both sides. It hasn't happened to me, so...I'd have to see it happen to someone else.
If it happened only TWICE, it would prove my point, that it DOES happen.
And you're ignoring the fact that journalists can use scientific studies in their documentaries too.

[Mr Sparkle]

As I think back over what I read, the thread that seemed to run through it was that
I (Wilhelm) think there is no more racism in America and that Blacks never suffer unfair treatment by Whites because of racism.
It will always be harder to be a Black person in America than it is to be a White person.Hahahaha. Without looking back, that was the idea I saw repeated.
Maybe you could refocus and correct me, but if those were your points, they're both incorrect.

good, neither was my point.


So...am I mutant? Because I effortlessly avoid it. :huh:
no, you're just not the rule of thumb, as you have shown in the religion threads were 80% of christians don't know the text in the bible of the God they worship.
you're not a mutant, you're just a minority.


Quite the opposite. It proves that SOME can. It proves nothing about ALL of them...It makes no statement about "ALL" of them, as you have, when you said that it will "ALWAYS" be harder for a Black person.
Nope....I guaran-****ing-TEE you that when Oprah has a kid, that kid will have more advantages, and have an easier time in life, than a White kid with Down Syndrome born to a Welfare Mother with an abusive Husband in Wyoming, next door to a Meth Lab.

The fact that Oprah is a very rare exception, is irrelevant...because of the foolhardy extremity of your assertion of an absolute.
*B00M*, you are wrong, and I am right.
That's why generalizations suck...I'm free to say that there is a lot of egregious racism in our society, you try to say that this is "ALWAYS" the case. I'm right, you're wrong.
Good night.
That's because I'm not a racist and you have unresolved anti-White racism.

hahahaha, actually, I'm saying that it happens as a rule.
rules have exceptions and are applicable everywhere.
you just can't see it because, well, you hate being wrong.

but yeah, hahaha! I totally have anti-white racism.
grrr, I hate whitey :cmad:! oh wilhelm you have acted as a dark mirror and shown me the error of my ways.

social studies be damned, wilhelm scream is ALWAYS RIGHT!


Aw, Don't be disingenuous now to avoid losing.
You did NOT say "likely have a more difficult time", at all...you said they'd "ALWAYS" have a more difficult time.
Humungous difference.
I'm not "likely" to win the lottery.
That doesn't mean I could NEVER win it.

actually I said neither.
but I can see how you would be blinded by a grade school impulse to be
" right"

this is what I said, for the last time I might add.

is it even up for discussion that black people, along with other minorities have a tougher time in a country still comprised of a white majority?

this statement is based upon observations that are not my own, not personal in any way, same as my stance on evolution, I have to rely on " cold hard numbers" and can't simply rely on myself because that's stupid.

and well, it doesn't say " always " anywhere.
infact if you do a control + F on the page, you will notice that the only posts containing " always" belong to you.
hahaha, way to be delusional there dude.:cwink:
guess you lose the internet.:huh:


It's totally relevant, to my stated facts that:
A national majority of White people does not equal a blanket, free ride for all White people or unfair disadvantages for all Black people.
The ONLY way to deal with charges of racial injustice is on a case-by-case basis, because you can not predict the behavior of an individual by his skin color, to think that you could, would be racist.

ahahahaha, who said that? you're on a roll today.


Uh, I meant on a societal scale as well, when I said "MILLIONS".

but then, what data do you rely on?
do you personally know of " millions " of cases, or do you have to rely on cold hard data?
like what I'm using.


Their race is really very irrelevant...as I've shown.
It could depend on genetics, family life, geography, economy, education...LOL, again, the 100% invisible White trash, unemployed, unemployable, drug addicted, uneducated, dead end, mentally ill WHITE PERSON, Hahahahaha.....They just show their pale face and all of their problems become like monarch butterflies and bluebirds compared to the Black people with the exact same problems...God bless that pale face!

so then, what you are saying is that people born INTO the majority DO NOT have at least a marginal advantage.
given that majority, like in the US being in control of the environment.
because, you will notice that all that rambling you did had nothing to do with what I asked.
it was a simple yes or no.
you say no.

correct?



Pff, I wasn't saying it in a "Get out of the thread, Troll!" way...I just meant that I am addressing the topic, and you start to address my address of the topic, and then when you're wrong, you say, "Well, I'm not talking about the topic."
As I said above, I have no idea what you are trying to say, except for a bunch of stuff that's been proven to be false.

no, you addressed my post, your response should've been relevant to the content of it, not the global topic of the thread.
don't be childish, no part of what I have said has been " proven to be false" your personal experience doesn't trump years of study.
I know, hard to fathom, but that's the facts:csad:


The only evidence in this thread has been Bubonic's mention of an article that said that Black people don't get antiretroviral drugs for AIDS and they get unnecessary amputations, etc.

oh, so now you're responding to Bubonic's post quoting a completely unrelated post? that's weird man.


lol, again, it's like...you're not even reading what I'm saying.

hahahaha! maybe I'm readig and responding to someone else's posts and evidence.
that would be a dumb thing to do wouldn't it?

I said, it DOES happen, because I saw the fall out from it in real lives...both sides. It hasn't happened to me, so...I'd have to see it happen to someone else.
If it happened only TWICE, it would prove my point, that it DOES happen.
And you're ignoring the fact that journalists can use scientific studies in their documentaries too.

no, I said this

don't make laugh man, that's misguided to say the least, and this is the second time that you talk to me about some program you see and use as some sort of rule of thumb for every aspect of the issue.

and you responded by saying:

"Yes, I'm sorry that I'm really interested in keeping up with these issues and learning about what's going on in other parts of the world, instead of just getting a 2nd Hand impression, and prejudices based on faceless numbers, and hunkering down in a static state of resentment that has no basis in reality. Sorry, not for me."

trying to both invalidate my use of studies and propping up your casual knowledge of the topic based upon an episode of 60 minutes.:whatever:

so far I have never said anything that I didn't KNOW to be true, like I said, unlike you I haven't talked about millions of cases that I can't really speak of (but I just KNOW are there) I have to rely on the scientific facts, the studies made that, like I said, apply to everything, not just the US.
it's not about whites or blacks, it's about minority versus majority, simple.
you're just too damned insecure to zero in on that little tidbit.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

oof, God...You're just tattered and limping here. It's hard to watch.
I'm having more fun on *** right now, so let me just pop in to show you what I meant by "Always", before I deal with the rest.


actually I said neither.
but I can see how you would be blinded by a grade school impulse to be
" right"

this is what I said, for the last time I might add.

is it even up for discussion that black people, along with other minorities have a tougher time in a country still comprised of a white majority?



I was talking about this:
just concede that they by definition WILL have a tougher time

No, I will not concede that, by definition, a minority "WILL" have a tougher time than a White person.
That is PrePOSTEROUS, PROVEN to be untrue, and I'm sorry i used quotes on "always", I should've actually quoted that they "WILL" have a tougher time.

No, not necessarily, you can't say that. If you say that, you are wrong.
They MAY have a tougher time.
A White person may have a tougher time, depending on many different factors.

[Bubonic]

hahahaha! I was speaking about the roots of minority criminality not majority.
I never said or even implied that white people had other motivations, if you had looked closely you would've seen that I was actually broadening Bubonic's oversimplification of the matter.

don't get all "emotional" Wil, you're kinda throwing logic out the door.:cwink:

And thanks for helping to bring things together in a coherent way. I try not to make sweeping generalizations, although sometimes I am not as detailed as I should be given I post during breaks in my actual homework.

This might not be true, but I feel the more detail I give, the less likely it will be fully read.


The only evidence in this thread has been Bubonic's mention of an article that said that Black people don't get antiretroviral drugs for AIDS and they get unnecessary amputations, etc.


I happened to come across that information during one of my readings and found it would be useful in here.
But it isn't the only proof, there is a lot of sociological and anthropological articles and books written on the subject of race and racism.
They might not explicitly have chapters on white privilege, but it is an underlying theme.

Here is a short page about how past occurences still play a heavy hand on minority realities

http://www.pbs.org/race/006_WhereRaceLives/006_00-home.htm

and if you missed it, check the "go deeper" section.

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_06-godeeper.htm

It might not say white privilege on there, but it still is a consequence of it which still has tremendous impact nowadays.

[comicgirl]

No one will ever openly admit this exists, but I do feel it's a subtle thing. Believe it or not, there are people in existence that will still take take into account that a white guy will or won't do things that I will or will not do, even if the whole thing is unfounded. I thank the media for that, personally.pre-dates the media.

[Arkady Rossovich]

It's one of the many things that upset me, but getting angry never solves anything... Cept if your trying to get your blood pressure up and Hulk out.

No one really paid much mind to the medicare stats I posted, 3-4 pages back...
So when I bring cited proof that something is up, it isn't much concern...

I did read what you said,some others have too. But what i wonder..is when this started..i would guess sometime before World War II..after World War I..

[Mr Sparkle]

oof, God...You're just tattered and limping here. It's hard to watch.
I'm having more fun on *** right now, so let me just pop in to show you what I meant by "Always", before I deal with the rest.

hahahaha! yeah, I'm tattered and limping.....but wait, before I lose, let's reach an armistice, you can have .com and .tv I will naturally expect .com.mx and perhaps .es let's have .xxx be a neutral ground where we can meet and discuss said armistice.

hahahahahahahaha!

so far you have answered to arguments I haven't made, ascribed me positions I have never taken and pretty much used the " my black friend" card to try and trump decades worth of psychology studies and social interaction studies...well, and that one report you saw on 60 minutes.

really solid stuff.


I was talking about this:


No, I will not concede that, by definition, a minority "WILL" have a tougher time than a White person.
That is PrePOSTEROUS, PROVEN to be untrue, and I'm sorry i used quotes on "always", I should've actually quoted that they "WILL" have a tougher time.

No, not necessarily, you can't say that. If you say that, you are wrong.
They MAY have a tougher time.
A White person may have a tougher time, depending on many different factors.

so again, given the nature of race relations in the US and societal tendencies of majority vs. minority you will not say that BY DEFINITION a minority will have a tougher time.
I don't know how you keep saying that something has been " proven " when this hasn't happened, at least not yet.
you're still hardwired on white privilege and apparently you can't see past your blinders to the fact that this is not something I came up with, this is not something that ocurred to me from my many musings on race relations in the US.
this is the nature of things, you don't even seem to acknowledge the definition of minority in a sociological context.
a white person MAY have a tough time, sure, I even recognized this in my first post.
but the fact that members of a minority have a TOUGHER time that members of a majority is a FACT. (this is no way excludes exceptions, I'm sure many a white people have suffered more, WAYYYYYYY more than some black people. that's why they are called exceptions....duh)
regardless of what you think.

so again, remember, you keep dot com, but stay stay away from dot com dot mx.

becuz I cut you ese!:cmad:

[lixdexia]

so far you have answered to arguments I haven't made, ascribed me positions I have never taken and pretty much used the " my black friend" card to try and trump decades worth of psychology studies and social interaction studies...well, and that one report you saw on 60 minutes.

those studies are bull****.the reason it is shown white people prefer to be around other white people is because most of the test takers generally have a similar background thus making it easier to relate to them. a kid from smalltown iowa is going to prefer another kid from smalltown iowa over a kid from armenia 99 times out of 100 regaurdless of the color of the participants.

[Mr Sparkle]

those studies are bull****.the reason it is shown white people prefer to be around other white people is because most of the test takers generally have a similar background thus making it easier to relate to them. a kid from smalltown iowa is going to prefer another kid from smalltown iowa over a kid from armenia 99 times out of 100 regaurdless of the color of the participants.

you ( and others) don't understand.
some of these tests aren't even about white kids.
are you all so self involved that you cannot grasp the concept of "majority" as anything else than white?
these tests have been done on pretty much every kind of group, race, age, sex, height, weight.
in some cases, minority is defined as a "subordinate" group.
Jesus.

I have been accused of getting " emotional" about this, yet I seem to be the only one able to see it with clinical detachment.

[lixdexia]

you ( and others) don't understand.
some of these tests aren't even about white kids.
are you all so self involved that you cannot grasp the concept of "majority" as anything else than white?
these tests have been done on pretty much every kind of group, race, age, sex, height, weight.
in some cases, minority is defined as a "subordinate" group.
Jesus.

I have been accused of getting " emotional" about this, yet I seem to be the only one able to see it with clinical detachment.
i fully grasp the concept of the majority being something other than white, because it's been that way where i'm from most of my life. i was one of 3 white kids in my 5th grade class and i avoided the others like the plauge because i couldn't relate to them. the tests are **** because they don't take into acount anything other than race. they don't take into account dialect or housing situations or anything other than race. or are you so close minded that you refuse to accept anything that doesn't support your beliefs?

[Silverstein]

Wow. Shutup. So boring. Let's just go back to white people being stupid(not that they stopped) and black people having their own water fountains...Everyone would be happy. Black people wouldn't have to drink "cracka water", white people can steal their music, asian people can build railroads, and spanish can wear sombreros. It's a win win...

[Colossal Spoons]

^Haha, what?

[Mr Sparkle]

you ( and others) don't understand.
some of these tests aren't even about white kids.
are you all so self involved that you cannot grasp the concept of "majority" as anything else than white?
these tests have been done on pretty much every kind of group, race, age, sex, height, weight.
in some cases, minority is defined as a "subordinate" group.
Jesus.

I have been accused of getting " emotional" about this, yet I seem to be the only one able to see it with clinical detachment.

i fully grasp the concept of the majority being something other than white, because it's been that way where i'm from most of my life. i was one of 3 white kids in my 5th grade class and i avoided the others like the plauge because i couldn't relate to them. the tests are **** because they don't take into acount anything other than race. they don't take into account dialect or housing situations or anything other than race. or are you so close minded that you refuse to accept anything that doesn't support your beliefs?

you fail at reading.:o:up:

[raybia]

Certainly it was a privilege to be white in this country from a racial standpoint but its a privilege to be American from a global standpoint and I'm definitely not ashamed of that.

[Bubonic]

Certainly it was a privilege to be white in this country from a racial standpoint but its a privilege to be American from a global standpoint and I'm definitely not ashamed of that.

Shouldn't be a question of shame, that sentiment doesn't get you anywhere.
If you look at why it is a privilege to be an American from a global standpoint, the roots of it, and how it is maintained, it can be pretty sickening.

[raybia]

Shouldn't be a question of shame, that sentiment doesn't get you anywhere.
If you look at why it is a privilege to be an American from a global standpoint, the roots of it, and how it is maintained, it can be pretty sickening.

Yes it can be but we as Americans still benefit.

[lixdexia]

you fail at reading.:o:up:
height and weight are inconsequental to the argument. what i'm saying is these tests fail to take into account regional and income based differences in people.

[q_ball76207]

height and weight are inconsequental to the argument. what i'm saying is these tests fail to take into account regional and income based differences in people.


WHAT?????????

[Mr Sparkle]

height and weight are inconsequental to the argument. what i'm saying is these tests fail to take into account regional and income based differences in people.

no they don't.
they are not even tests made solely in the US.
haha, fail again.

[Sandman138]

I grew up in a town where there is a less than 1% black population. If you are black and in this town, you will be harassed by the cops, no two ways about it. The town made statewide news because their new high school opened with two bronze statues of what can only be described as negroid monkeys. Nobody in the schools administration saw a problem with this even though the school is part of the Massachusetts METCO program that buses in minority children from inner city Boston. So yes, white privilege does exist. However, it's not just about being white, it is about social class and how much money you or your parents make. The next town over is one of those old industrial towns whose economy collapsed after WWII ended. Blacks, whites, latinos, and just about every other race you could imagine all live together there and they all get treated exactly the same... like poor people.

[terry78]

No one thinks white privilege exists until you're the only black/latino/asian person in an all white setting. Honestly, even if you don't have issues with brown people, there will always be something someone will say or do that will just cause an issue.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

*sigh*


Yeah, that's how I felt when my band toured to L.A. and my light guy and I went walking and ended up in an all Mexican part of town.
Everyone was on their porches laughing at us, mocking us, and looking like they wanted to kill and eat us.

So, I guess there's a Mexican Privilege in America.



I can't believe that people who are supposedly against racism, and unfair generalizations, can't hear how ridiculous they sound as they make these inaccurate, unfair generalizations. :o



How in the world could I be the only one who takes issue with the poll's either/or framing, and the only one who sees the beauty of case-by-case judgment? :huh:

[Sandman138]

There is truth in Wil's words.

[Mr Sparkle]

*sigh*


Yeah, that's how I felt when my band toured to L.A. and my light guy and I went walking and ended up in an all Mexican part of town.
Everyone was on their porches laughing at us, mocking us, and looking like they wanted to kill and eat us.

So, I guess there's a Mexican Privilege in America.





it's like some sort majority vs minority thing. :eek:
shh.

don't tell anyone.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

it's like some sort majority vs minority thing. :eek:
shh.

don't tell anyone.Yeah.

In L.A.

In AMERICA


Notice how my being White didn't mean **** there.
Notice how it was actually, a liability...in America, depending on certain factors that are not necessarily the same everywhere else.

Notice how that proves that there is no blanket guarantee that White skin makes things easier for you in America...but rather, that life is more complex than that, and you can't predict everything about a person based on the color of their skin, because that's asinine racism...and how everyone who says that it "WILL" automatically be easier for a White person in America, regardless of other factors, is totally wrong?

[Sandman138]

Stop being so racistly white, Wil. :cmad:

[Mr Sparkle]

Yeah.

In L.A.

In AMERICA


Notice how my being White didn't mean **** there.
Notice how it was actually, a liability...in America, depending on certain factors that are not necessarily the same everywhere else.

Notice how that proves that there is no blanket guarantee that White skin makes things easier for you in America...but rather, that life is more complex than that, and you can't predict everything about a person based on the color of their skin, because that's asinine racism...and how everyone who says that it "WILL" automatically be easier for a White person in America, regardless of other factors, is totally wrong?

yeah, funny how things are.
to me it seems that you're making a good argument about how members of a perceived minority will be much, much more prone to be singled out in a negative way by members of the majority, specially if this majority also happens to be a ruling majority in the economic and social aspects of a country.
you're judging a machine based upon it's cogs and it makes little sense.
you know, it's not even a matter of racism ( the kkk variety) sometimes.
I remember this neighborhood in Chula Vista where a friend of mine lived, he looked quite Mexican and always complained to me about the looks he would get from some of his neighbors, some of them I gather didn't even " hate " him per se, but they did see him as " alien" to them, being that it had stayed a pretty much all white block for the last couple of decades.
you need to stop seeing this as a "white" issue and more of a
"majority" issue.
I've seen it happen in freaking Mexico, and I have no idea why you hold on to this baffling concept that a Hispanic majority in a neighborhood will make a white man feel uncomfortable but that a white majority in a country will not make a minority feel the same.

meh.