Discussion: Reverend Wright And The Fallout

[Matt]

yeah, Lord knows that never happens with politicians.
like JFK afiliated with the mob, and we know what a nightmare president he turned out to be.:o

JFK is fondly remembered because he was killed 2 years into his term. Frankly, he does not deserve 95 % of the credit he gets. We do not know what kind of President he would have been. He had a total inability to work with Congress, so there is a good chance he would've done nothing for 4 or 8 years.

[MST3K 4ever]

Unfortunately Mark Warner is running for Senate. I doubt the national party would allow him to drop out of the Senate race and pretty much guarantee the seat to Republicans (when with Warner running it is basically guaranteed Democrat) in order to pursue the vice-presidency.



Do what I'm doing, vote third party. Then in 2012 we can have a decent candidate like Warner or Sherrod Brown.

DAMN! I thought for sure he might be in line for it.

3rd Party? Looks like I might be doing that as well...I don't know though...I need time to think it over.

[Matt]

http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:Zj9Qar7zfFUJ:www.screwattack.com/images/Mexican%252520Flag.jpg (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.screwattack.com/images/Mexican%2520Flag.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.screwattack.com/videos/Screwattack_Videos_Index.html&h=81&w=136&sz=33&tbnid=Zj9Qar7zfFUJ:&tbnh=81&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmexican%2Bflag&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&cd=3)

How are things going down there? just askin'.....:yay:

That is ridiculously off topic and frankly a low blow. Do it again and you will be perma-banned.

[jaguarr]

Jman,

what do you think would be a better way for him to handle it? aside from switching churches 20 years ago ;)

If he had thrown Wright under the bus, many of the same people who are dinging him for not doing it would have simply said that he was only doing it for political positioning and that it reflected poorly on him as a person who is not loyal to his friends and family and will turn his back on them for his own gain. There's absolutely no way he could have appeased any of those people.

What I read in his words today (only browsed the transcript, didn't get a chance to listen to the speech) seemed to reflect a man who has a bit more of an Eastern philosophy about the company that he keeps; that he many not agree with and even condemn the beliefs and statements of those people but it does not mean that he will throw them to the wolves just because he does not agree with them and that there can be value in other aspects of those people and the relationships that he has with them. The Japanese have the saying "Fix the problem, not the person" and that is exactly what I saw Obama attempting to do today. That shows a lot of integrity, to be honest, rather than just condemn someone outright because they have views that he does not agree with. To be honest, he raised some spectre's of racism in a very candid and frank way with this speech; topics that no one has really wanted to talk about or address in our country for a very long time. In that regard, it was also refreshing.

Will he accomplish everything that he needed to with this speech? Probably not. His message had complexities and subtleties to it that most people simply aren't going to hear, which is too bad because there was a lot of value in much of what he said, even if you don't like the man.

jag

[Matt]

http://www.moltz.net/%7Ejohn/images/iVotedForKodos.gif
go ahead, throw your vote away!!!!

:o :csad: Jesse Ventura might be running though.

How could you not vote for him?

http://www.forces.org/images/jesse-ventura.jpg

[jaguarr]

I'd say at the very least we can agree that Obama has shown some very bad judgement in who he chooses to associate with (be it Rezko, this man, and the countless other people he calls "friend" until the spotlight shines on their wrong doing and then he conveinently was unaware).

What politician in this race can say that they have impeccable choices in associates? Hillary has people like Spitzer and Ferraro among others. McCain has the Bush camp, Karl Rove and lobbyists crawling out of his ass. They ALL have this problem.

jag

[Tron5000]

McCain...he's a Bush clone in a lot of ways...and that temper of his really doesn't help with diplomacy.

Sorry, but I don't see McCain as "a Bush clone." The man is a war hero. He has been in Washington for quite some time. He has butted heads with Bush on several issues, both during the 2000 campaign and for the 8 years that Bush has been in office. His upbringing was nothing like Bush's, he valiantly served his country as a decorated military officer, the trajectory of his political career differs greatly from that of George Bush, and he holds many more centrist views than does President Bush.

They may agree on some key issues, but the 2 men are vastly different in both personalities and many political beliefs.

If his association with George Bush clouds your judgment of John McCain, I wish that it wouldn't. John McCain is a man of integrity and valor. I disagree with him on a great number of issues, but I believe he is a man of great character and immense moral fiber. Which is much more than I can say I feel of the 2 Democrat nominees.

[Mr Sparkle]

JFK is fondly remembered because he was killed 2 years into his term. Frankly, he does not deserve 95 % of the credit he gets. We do not know what kind of President he would have been. He had a total inability to work with Congress, so there is a good chance he would've done nothing for 4 or 8 years.

:huh: 50% of a presidency is pretty indicative of the totality.
I mean, by his assasination he was wildly popular.
because they Kennedy's had charisma, a way to unite the people and politicians.

it has nothing to do with their friends.
this whole thing is just an extension of the " I would have a beer with...."
like I believe that Bush doesn't have any racist friends, or McCain or Clinton.

the only thing this teaches us?
the US doesn't like to be reminded that they're not awesome.
someone can't say " man this country is going down the tubes I better become president to fix it"
they have to think " this country is sooooo great, I want to be president just so I can dry-hump the oval office desk!!!!"

[Memphis Slim]

Very very few preachers condemn homosexuality from the pulpit. VERY few.

Second, these aren't a few comments taken out of context. We now have transcripts of other sermons, we have SEVERAL paritioners coming out and saying that Pastor Wright does this in about half of his sermons each year. This is not an isolated incident. This man is just as bad as those nutjobs at the Westboro Baptist Church.

Let me ask you something Souvlaki...if I went to a KKK rally once a week, for 20 years, but never spoke at it, have I done something wrong?


What alternate reality are you living in? And you always want to pull the Westboro card. Not every church is a Westboro and they still disagree with that life style.

There's not an evangelical church out there that does not preach against homosexual behavior, fornication and other sins. Thousand of them do. It's in the Bible. But we are called to love them....not affirm what they do. There's a difference that you don't want to see.

And if you were a "member" (not just some guy that showed up) of that KKK. If you were being mentored by their leader, if you guys were buddies and if you gave money to help further their cause, then yes......you'd be wrong.

But your question was phrased the right way, was it?

[Mr Sparkle]

That is ridiculously off topic and frankly a low blow. Do it again and you will be perma-banned.

hahaha, let him make a thread on it, I'll answer his questions, I'll bet his knowledge of Mexico extends to " the george lopez show" and Speedy Gonzales cartoons.

:o

[Matt]

:huh: 50% of a presidency is pretty indicative of the totality.
I mean, by his assasination he was wildly popular.
because they Kennedy's had charisma, a way to unite the people and politicians.

it has nothing to do with their friends.
this whole thing is just an extension of the " I would have a beer with...."
like I believe that Bush doesn't have any racist friends, or McCain or Clinton.

the only thing this teaches us?
the US doesn't like to be reminded that they're not awesome.
someone can't say " man this country is going down the tubes I better become president to fix it"
they have to think " this country is sooooo great, I want to be president just so I can dry-hump the oval office desk!!!!"

Kennedy did not unite anyone. He was incapable of working with Congress. :huh:

[souvlaki]

I do not know if he is racist or not. Only Senator Obama can answer that question. I do know that this man was his spiritual advisor. I do know that he went to this man's church for 20 YEARS (so on some level he must've agreed with what he was saying. After all, why go to a church if you do not agree with what the pastor is preaching?). I do know that this is the man who baptized his children. I do know that he has been exposing this man to his children for their whole lives.

I'd say at the very least we can agree that Obama has shown some very bad judgement in who he chooses to associate with (be it Rezko, this man, and the countless other people he calls "friend" until the spotlight shines on their wrong doing and then he conveinently was unaware).

Oh, I agree. Horrible judgment on his part. But I just have never heard him make a big deal out of his religious views before. Just because he had his children baptized there and has been a member of that church for 20 years doesn't necessarily mean he attended regularly. He's a politician with a busy schedule. I buy that far more than Obama being racist.

[Matt]

hahaha, let him make a thread on it, I'll answer his questions, I'll bet his knowledge of Mexico extends to " the george lopez show" and Speedy Gonzales cartoons.

:o

Your comment was ridiculously off topic and frankly a low blow.


If you mess with George Lopez and his hillariously large head again, you will be banned :cwink: :woot:

[Matt]

Oh, I agree. Horrible judgment on his part. But I just have never heard him make a big deal out of his religious views before. Just because he had his children baptized there and has been a member of that church for 20 years doesn't necessarily mean he attended regularly. He's a politician with a busy schedule. I buy that far more than Obama being racist.

If I went to a KKK rally on a weekly basis for 20 years and never spoke, have I commited a wrong-doing?

[Matt]

What alternate reality are you living in? And you always want to pull the Westboro card. Not every church is a Westboro and they still disagree with that life style.

There's not an evangelical church out there that does not preach against homosexual behavior, fornication and other sins. Thousand of them do. It's in the Bible. But we are called to love them....not affirm what they do. There's a difference that you don't want to see.

And if you were a "member" (not just some guy that showed up) of that KKK. If you were being mentored by their leader, if you guys were buddies and if you gave money to help further their cause, then yes......you'd be wrong.

But your question was phrased the right way, was it?

The hell are you talking about? Very few preachers will say things like "GOD DAMN AMERICA!" or "GAYS CAUSE AIDS!" from the pulpit. And I did not say every church is a Westboro. I said Obama's church is just as bad as Westboro.

[Zen]

We have absolutely not "killed more Iraq civilians than Saddam has." Ever heard of the Anfal campaigns? When hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were wiped out by Saddam's biological and chemical weapons? Your statement is factually untrue, and the fact that you believe that is disturbing to me.

When you speak of the 600,000 dead, I assume you are referring to WWII. Had the US not taken such action, the war would have dragged on with our enemies gaining power and momentum. We ended the war, point blank. Millions more would have died had the US not taken such action. It was an absolutely brutal war that spanned the globe. We ended it, and the world owes us an unimaginable debt for doing so.

the number is 600,000 dead iraqis since we have started the campaign, though i will concede not all of them were killed by our guns directly... and thats a valid point, but the only reason we have left for having gone in is to end the human rights violations and "supposedly" to stop terror :whatever:

with a record of 600,000 dead since we invaded... i don't see how we are going to do anything except embolden our enemy. many over there will see all that mess as directly our fault...

whether they are trully right or wrong is a bit inconsequential when compared to how we should have anticipated certain scenarios, realized reality and approached the problem from a different angle... where we didnt keep moving the goal posts. honestly, if i was an outsider looking in... i would have great disdain for this nation.

the fact is most of the world does :csad:



i want to stay level headed, and i will... but its absolutely narrow minded to think Obama isn't patriotic because of that picture. its categorically a mistake of judgement to say so.

whether or not the man will make a good president is debateable. but he has dedicated his life to civil action, civil rights... constitutional law, and his senate service is far and above enough proof that he is American, pridefull of his nation compared to others throughout history, and loves his country.

having a very left leaning view of our policies as a nation and criticizing our actions doesnt demonstrate ones lack of patriotism... this country wasn't founded on blind devotion. it was founded on examination of the law... interpretation of the law... in order to enumerate us with certain inalienable rights. REBELLION.

if his pastors beleifs on our adventures of warfare are extreme then so be it... warfare is an extreme situation. one which many americans absolutely ignore and are relatively apathetic about unless we discuss our own troops.

the things the pastor brought up are very inflamatory, and absolutely damaging for a candidate... but it doesnt make him a racist in the general sense of the term as i know it (im open to other interpretations though)

when he references some of Americas very sensitive events... such as the atomic bomb, there is creedence to being angy at this nation for some. it does not mean that they wish it to be torn down and replaced with anarchy... or facism. only that its undercurrent change. that its policies change. that our image on the world stage repaired because we are fast approaching a day where we will no longer be king of the mountain...

we need to seriously approach that idea without ego. and understand that if we do not tread with caution we can further embolden people of other walks of life to do the same things to us with the justifications we have used.

the original point is, i beleive the US is directly responsible for most of that death in Iraq that the new york times reported. we created that situation, its our responsibility. thats my belief. as the years drag on imagine how many more will die?

And Iran? we just made them the biggest ally to Iraq... as the shia majority takes control in the government. what kind blunder has this turned out to be... we have further united the Middle east... hopefully not further against us. I digress.

but some people see huge problems with our steps, and they are just as patriotic, if not for abhorrent displays of solidarity during time when we have little to be proud about (other then for our troops service...) then they are patriotic for having what might be very acute forsight down the road... and wanting to keep your kin safe then as well as now.

[Mr Sparkle]

What alternate reality are you living in? And you always want to pull the Westboro card. Not every church is a Westboro and they still disagree with that life style.

There's not an evangelical church out there that does not preach against homosexual behavior, fornication and other sins. Thousand of them do. It's in the Bible. But we are called to love them....not affirm what they do. There's a difference that you don't want to see.



pat robertson.

"I have known few homosexuals who did not practice their tendencies. Such people are sinning against God and will lead to the ultimate destruction of the family and our nation. I am unalterably opposed to such things, and will do everything I can to restrict the freedom of these people to spread their contagious infection to the youth of this nation."
--Pat Robertson

"[Homosexuals] want to come into churches and disrupt church services and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of ministers."
--The 700 Club, January 18, 1995

"If the widespread practice of homosexuality will bring about the destruction of your nation, if it will bring about terrorist bombs, if it'll bring about earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor, it isn't necessarily something we ought to open our arms to."
--The 700 Club, June 8, 1998

"Many of those people involved with Adolf Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals - the two things seem to go together."
--The 700 Club, January 21, 1993

"Many observers say that AIDS is the hammer and gun of the homosexual movement, an effective vehicle to propel the homosexual agenda throughout every phase of our society."
--The 700 Club June 20, 1990

"...What kind of craziness is it in our society which will put a cloak of secrecy around a group of people whose lifestyle is at best abominable. Homosexuality is an abomination. The practices of those people is appalling. It is a pathology. It is a sickness, and instead of thinking of giving these people a preferred status and privacy, we should treat AIDS exactly the same way as any other communicable disease..."
--The 700 Club, June 6, 1988

"The concept, the word for homosexual behavior is sodomy. That is what is used in the official documents. It is sodomy. It is repugnant. It has been prohibited and proscribed by sane society throughout countless millennia, centuries. People have understood that it is wrong. Now in America, not only is it happening, it is getting civil rights protection in the law, and these people are invading churches."
-- The 700 Club, January 18, 1994

"It is teaching kids to fornicate, teaching people to have adultery, every kind of bestiality, homosexuality, lesbianism-everything that the Bible condemns."
--The 700 Club, April 9, 1991, talking about Planned Parenthood

:huh: can't you just feel the love?

[jaguarr]

If I went to a KKK rally on a weekly basis for 20 years and never spoke, have I commited a wrong-doing?

It depends on whether you bought into all the racist, separatist rhetoric that was being espoused there or not. ;) At any rate, your attempting to compare Obama's church to the KKK is ridiculous, man.

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

Kennedy did not unite anyone. He was incapable of working with Congress. :huh:

I meant socially, you have to concede that the Kennedy brothers ( the dead ones) just sweated charisma.
important thing for a leader.

[jaguarr]

I meant socially, you have to concede that the Kennedy brothers ( the dead ones) just sweated charisma.
important thing for a leader.

Teddy sweats vodka. :o

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

It depends on whether you bought into all the racist, separatist rhetoric that was being espoused there or not. ;) At any rate, your attempting to compare Obama's church to the KKK is ridiculous, man.

jag

yeah, I have asked, do you think Obama and the Chruch goers are racist?
they say "I don't know."

:huh: I guess if I asked " do you think KKK members are racist?" they would also say " I don't know":o

[souvlaki]

What alternate reality are you living in? And you always want to pull the Westboro card. Not every church is a Westboro and they still disagree with that life style.

There's not an evangelical church out there that does not preach against homosexual behavior, fornication and other sins. Thousand of them do. It's in the Bible. But we are called to love them....not affirm what they do. There's a difference that you don't want to see.

And if you were a "member" (not just some guy that showed up) of that KKK. If you were being mentored by their leader, if you guys were buddies and if you gave money to help further their cause, then yes......you'd be wrong.

But your question was phrased the right way, was it?

We don't know what his role as a mentor consisted of. We don't know what they talked about, or even how often they talked. And I'm sure you give money to your church every Sunday. Most people do. This is just guilt by association because I have yet to see anyone produce evidence that a.) he attended one of the sermons where this guy made comments like these, and b.) we don't even know how large this guy's role as a "mentor" to Obama was.

[Mr Sparkle]

Teddy sweats vodka. :o

jag

alcoholics could use him as a salt lick

[Memphis Slim]

The hell are you talking about? Very few preachers will say things like "GOD DAMN AMERICA!" or "GAYS CAUSE AIDS!" from the pulpit. And I did not say every church is a Westboro. I said Obama's church is just as bad as Westboro.


Did I say that? No. I said they do preach against homosexual behavior!!

WHAT ARE "YOU" TALKING ABOUT??

You always use Westboro as the extreme example to make your point. Thousands of churches do not affirm that lifestyle. But they still show respect.

[Memphis Slim]

If I went to a KKK rally on a weekly basis for 20 years and never spoke, have I commited a wrong-doing?


Obama did more than that. That's the rub.

[Matt]

It depends on whether you bought into all the racist, separatist rhetoric that was being espoused there or not. ;) At any rate, your attempting to compare Obama's church to the KKK is ridiculous, man.

jag

Not really, granted, Obama's church isn't going around lynching people, but neither is the KKK anymore. It all comes down to rhetoric and the rhetoric of Obama's church is on the same level as that of the KKK.

[Tron5000]

Oh, I agree. Horrible judgment on his part. But I just have never heard him make a big deal out of his religious views before. Just because he had his children baptized there and has been a member of that church for 20 years doesn't necessarily mean he attended regularly. He's a politician with a busy schedule. I buy that far more than Obama being racist.

Whether or not he attended regularly, Obama professes that Jeremiah Wright brought him to Jesus, is a trusted spiritual adviser and helped cultivate Obama's Christian beliefs. Wright's "Christian" beliefs, however, are heavily influenced by James H. Cone, a pioneer of black liberation theology. Some of Cone's lighter statements are as follows:

"The time has come for white America to be silent and listen to black people. . . . All white men are responsible for white oppression. . . . Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man 'the devil.'. . . Any advice from whites to blacks on how to deal with white oppression is automatically under suspicion as a clever device to further enslavement...Black suffering is getting worse, not better. . . . White supremacy is so clever and evasive that we can hardly name it. It claims not to exist, even though black people are dying daily from its poison."

These beliefs have been a great influence on Jeremiah Wright's religious beliefs, and if we are to believe Obama (who said Wright led him to God, is a trusted spiritual adviser and was the pastor of Obama's church for 20 years), then I don't think it requires a leap of faith to assume that these beliefs have thusly then passed down to him.

[jaguarr]

Obama did more than that. That's the rub.

Actually, he's being ACCUSED of doing more than that, even though it's really all just guilt by association and doubt that he's capable of having free thought that doesn't reflect some of the more inflammatory and negative values of Wright. THAT is the rub. ;)

jag

[Matt]

Did I say that? No. I said they do preach against homosexual behavior!!

WHAT ARE "YOU" TALKING ABOUT??

You always use Westboro as the extreme example to make your point. Thousands of churches do not affirm that lifestyle. But they still show respect.

This is probably the first time I've ever mentioned the Westboro church in political debate and I challenge you to find any other time I have.

[Zen]

The hell are you talking about? Very few preachers will say things like "GOD DAMN AMERICA!" or "GAYS CAUSE AIDS!" from the pulpit. And I did not say every church is a Westboro. I said Obama's church is just as bad as Westboro.


ohh man!

though i will agree the pasters ferver in his anger is definately akin to westboro in some ways... they are not singing "god hates the world" on youtube... they are not a family cult, and they all don't look like the crypt keeper.

but his condemnation of america is rash, he deserves to have it publicly examined...

but westboro? these guys arnt going to funerals and protesting soldiers deaths and stuff.


and for the record i dont think ive ever seen you reference westboro before.

[Memphis Slim]

We don't know what his role as a mentor consisted of. We don't know what they talked about, or even how often they talked. And I'm sure you give money to your church every Sunday. Most people do. This is just guilt by association because I have yet to see anyone produce evidence that a.) he attended one of the sermons where this guy made comments like these, and b.) we don't even know how large this guy's role as a "mentor" to Obama was.

20 years is a lot of cumulative time. And if Wright will cut loose like that in public, you know Obama has heard the uncut version in private. That's just common sense. But I see that people are willing to throw that out because they like a candidate. Obama is lying when he says he didn't know.

[Matt]

We don't know what his role as a mentor consisted of. We don't know what they talked about, or even how often they talked. And I'm sure you give money to your church every Sunday. Most people do. This is just guilt by association because I have yet to see anyone produce evidence that a.) he attended one of the sermons where this guy made comments like these, and b.) we don't even know how large this guy's role as a "mentor" to Obama was.

I ask you once more. If I went to a KKK meeting every week for 20 years, and lets say that unlike Obama I never spoke to the Grand Dragon, I never gave them a dime. I simply went and listened for 20 years...have I done something wrong?

[Matt]

ohh man!

though i will agree the pasters ferver in his anger is definately akin to westboro in some ways... they are not singing "god hates the world" on youtube... they are not a family cult, and they all don't look like the crypt keeper.

but his condemnation of america is rash, he deserves to have it publicly examined...

but westboro? these guys arnt going to funerals and protesting soldiers deaths and stuff.

No, they are simply cheering about CIVILIAN deaths in church each sunday.

[jaguarr]

Not really, granted, Obama's church isn't going around lynching people, but neither is the KKK anymore. It all comes down to rhetoric and the rhetoric of Obama's church is on the same level as that of the KKK.

Actually, the church has also said that they don't support certain aspects of Wright's rhetoric, especially the type that is being called into question.

jag

[souvlaki]

If I went to a KKK rally on a weekly basis for 20 years and never spoke, have I commited a wrong-doing?

Do we actually know that he attended on a weekly basis? I'm curious. Why are we assuming that just because the guy goes to church, he goes every week? As a busy politician, I wouldn't be surprised if he was only there maybe once a month, if that. I know plenty of people that only attend church on major religious holidays. Like I said, I've never seen any real evidence that Obama is devoutly religious.

[Matt]

Actually, the church has also said that they don't support certain aspects of Wright's rhetoric, especially the type that is being called into question.

jag

Do you know where these videos came from, Jag? They were posted on the Church's website as promotional videos. Bit of a mixed message if they don't support it. Wouldn't you say?

[Matt]

Do we actually know that he attended on a weekly basis? I'm curious. Why are we assuming that just because the guy goes to church, he goes every week? As a busy politician, I wouldn't be surprised if he was only there maybe once a month, if that. I know plenty of people that only attend church on major religious holidays. Like I said, I've never seen any real evidence that Obama is devoutly religious.

Have you read his book? Have you heard him talk about how important faith and church is to him?

Either he is lying about going to church or lying about being unaware of this. Which is it?

Also, lets say I went to a KKK rally once a month for 20 years? Lets use your extreme example. Have I done anything wrong?

[jaguarr]

Do you know where these videos came from, Jag? They were posted on the Church's website as promotional videos. Bit of a mixed message if they don't support it. Wouldn't you say?

That's what they are on record as stating. Whether it's entirely true, I can'st say. I haven't sat through 20 years worth of sermons from all the various pastors at that church to know if there's a consistent message that is in line with Wright's more audacious rhetoric or not.

jag

[souvlaki]

I ask you once more. If I went to a KKK meeting every week for 20 years, and lets say that unlike Obama I never spoke to the Grand Dragon, I never gave them a dime. I simply went and listened for 20 years...have I done something wrong?

Generally the KKK make racist remarks at every single sermon. Though there are people claiming otherwise, I have yet to see anything other than circumstantial evidence that he made remarks like those more than three times.

[Tron5000]

Do you know where these videos came from, Jag? They were posted on the Church's website as promotional videos. Bit of a mixed message if they don't support it. Wouldn't you say?

And they're also available on the "Greatest Hits" DVD that is sold IN THE CHURCH.

Hurry, reserve your copy now, before they sell out!

[Matt]

Generally the KKK make racist remarks at every single sermon. Though there are people claiming otherwise, I have yet to see anything other than circumstantial evidence that he made remarks like those more than three times.

Its not circumstantial! It is eye-witness accounts! Multiple witnesses would earn him a conviction in a court of law. Of course people aren't going to video tape every sermon. This is a ridiculous argument. It is like you are closing your eyes and screaming "THE SKY IS GREEN!'

[souvlaki]

Have you read his book? Have you heard him talk about how important faith and church is to him?

Either he is lying about going to church or lying about being unaware of this. Which is it?

Also, lets say I went to a KKK rally once a month for 20 years? Lets use your extreme example. Have I done anything wrong?

I read Audacity of Hope about a year and a half ago, and I don't remember him mentioning his religion or his church more than maybe twice, and both times it was fairly brief. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, or maybe he talks about it more in Dreams From My Father?

[Memphis Slim]

Actually, he's being ACCUSED of doing more than that, even though it's really all just guilt by association and doubt that he's capable of having free thought that doesn't reflect some of the more inflammatory and negative values of Wright. THAT is the rub. ;)

jag

No. He knew this guy was preaching this.....

The time has come for white America to be silent and listen to black people. . . . All white men are responsible for white oppression. . . . Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man 'the devil.'. . . Any advice from whites to blacks on how to deal with white oppression is automatically under suspicion as a clever device to further enslavement...Black suffering is getting worse, not better. . . . White supremacy is so clever and evasive that we can hardly name it. It claims not to exist, even though black people are dying daily from its poison."



All white men, Jag??? All???? You responsible for keeping me down Jag? Should I be angry with you??

Truth be known, we wouldn't be where we are if not for the HELP of some good white folk. White abolitionists.....a white President who (for whatever reason) set us free. Good white people who marched with us in Selma. Good white folk who signed some laws on our behalf.

I've seen some white devils. But there's some black ones, too. selling poison to their own people and blaming the white man for making him do it.

We all got issues! All of us! Wright's kinda preaching never makes us examine ourselves as black people. We never do anything wrong. As result, we stay in mental bondage. It's always somebody esle's fault!

[jaguarr]

No. He knew this guy was preaching this.....




All white men, Jag??? All???? You responsible for keeping me down Jag? Should I be angry with you??

Truth be know, we wouldn't be where we are if not for the HELP of some good white folk. White abolitionists.....a white President who (for whatever reason) set us free. Good white people who marched with us in Selma. Good white folk who signed some laws on our behalf.

I've seen some white devils. But there's some black ones, too. selling poison to their own people and blaming the white man for making him do it.

We all got issues! All of us! Wright's kinda preaching never makes us examine ourselves as black people. We never do anything wrong. As result, we stay in mental bondage. It's always somebody esle's fault!

Like I said, you are operating off the assumption that Obama believes all of that, which he has stated repeatedly that he does not.

jag

[souvlaki]

Its not circumstantial! It is eye-witness accounts! Multiple witnesses would earn him a conviction in a court of law. Of course people aren't going to video tape every sermon. This is a ridiculous argument. It is like you are closing your eyes and screaming "THE SKY IS GREEN!'

A couple of people coming forth after this has been blown up in the media? Or did these eyewitnesses that claimed he did this at every sermon say this before all this stuff came up? Personally, I think any "eyewitness report" is suspect after it has been publicized in the media like this, because then it becomes just as likely that those people are coming forward for publicity. Let me ask you this, if these people that came forward said he made those comments at every sermon, why did THEY continue to attend his church? If they agreed with the statements, they probably wouldn't have come forth in the first place.

[Memphis Slim]

Like I said, you are operating off the assumption that Obama believes all of that, which he has stated repeatedly that he does not.

jag


You wouldn't be concerned if he believed "SOME" of it???

[Mr Sparkle]

Like I said, you are operating off the assumption that Obama believes all of that, which he has stated repeatedly that he does not.

jag

it doesn't really matter what he believes anymore.
I've asked if people think that he is racist.
they said they don't know, that they can't know.
but I thought his mother was....well never mind.
I don't really care anymore.

[jaguarr]

You wouldn't be concerned if he believed "SOME" of it???

He's repeatedly said that he flat out condemns the racist and separatist things that have been called into question. He's always tried to have a message about accepting everyone in this country regardless of race, gender, religion, etc.

it doesn't really matter what he believes anymore.
I've asked if people think that he is racist.
they said they don't know, that they can't know.
but I thought his mother was....well never mind.
I don't really care anymore.

Yeah, some people are just looking for any reason to hate the guy, whether well founded or not. They would have found a reason sooner or later. I still haven't decided if he's someone I would vote for or not but I can at least see through this nonsense and understand that it's been blown way out of proportion and twisted into something it's really not in the name of sensationalism and an excuse to not have to focus on the real issues facing this country.

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

it's McCain's black baby in 2000.

[souvlaki]

it doesn't really matter what he believes anymore.
I've asked if people think that he is racist.
they said they don't know, that they can't know.
but I thought his mother was....well never mind.
I don't really care anymore.

Well, didn't you get the memo? He obviously hates his mother.

This is just a case of a politician making bad judgment when it comes to who he associates himself with. Not the first time, wont be the last. I just don't think his pastor's views are necessarily indicative of his own views, same as how Ferraro's comments don't reflect Clinton's views.

[Marx]

20 years is a lot of cumulative time. And if Wright will cut loose like that in public, you know Obama has heard the uncut version in private. That's just common sense. But I see that people are willing to throw that out because they like a candidate. Obama is lying when he says he didn't know.

It is really sad when people dismiss something like this simply because they idolize the candidate - some whose objective judgement becomes clouded by their own bias.

[souvlaki]

it's McCain's black baby in 2000.

Yeah, but McCain wasn't ahead in delegates by such a margin that it made his lead almost impossible to overcome. This is an interesting problem for the Democrats if this doesn't go away, because of how late in the race this happened. Personally, I am starting to honestly believe, despite the fact that I support Obama, that both candidates are in pretty bad shape right now, and will have a far more difficult time winning in November then they should have.

[Super_Ludacris]

Saw the speech earlier.


Obama handled that speech well and he spoke a lot of truth about race in this country.

Hell, I even understood where the Rev was coming from even if he was acting out of pocket. Some people just feel that way.

But Obama cant just ignore that, he spoke on that and said some real stuff to me.

If it ends his campaign then it will be a shame but it will open a new issue about how the youth and black people feel about this country.

[StorminNorman]

Like I said, you are operating off the assumption that Obama believes all of that, which he has stated repeatedly that he does not.

jag

If he found that sort of rhetoric as distasteful as he now finds it - why did he continue going...for 20 years.

Why did he give the man responsible for saying such hate the position of Spiritual Guide?

Obama knew damn well what this guy believed and continued to strengthen his relationship with him. He is liable for him.

[Super_Ludacris]

I really liked what he said in that speech today. Needed to be addressed and he was just being real about the situation.

[StorminNorman]

it's McCain's black baby in 2000.

Which never happened :o

[souvlaki]

It is really sad when people dismiss something like this simply because they idolize the candidate - some whose objective judgement becomes clouded by their own bias.

There is just no proof that he shares those beliefs. He's condemned them, and everything he has done in public as a politician completely contradicts a person that has those views. Why should I believe that a person that clearly had a close relationship with his mother would attend a church that condemned her knowingly? Why is it so hard to believe that maybe the guy just didn't happen to attend when those comments were made?

[Marx]

If he found that sort of rhetoric as distasteful as he now finds it - why did he continue going...for 20 years.

Why did he give the man responsible for saying such hate the position of Spiritual Guide?

Obama knew damn well what this guy believed and continued to strengthen his relationship with him. He is liable for him.

Exactly.

[Mr Sparkle]

Which never happened :o

you're catching on:cwink:

[souvlaki]

Exactly.

For someone that complained about how completely off the subject the whole Ferraro thing was from the main issues, you sure don't want to let this go.

[Marx]

There is just no proof that he shares those beliefs. He's condemned them, and everything he has done in public as a politician completely contradicts a person that has those views. Why should I believe that a person that clearly had a close relationship with his mother would attend a church that condemned her knowingly? Why is it so hard to believe that maybe the guy just didn't happen to attend when those comments were made?

Because he only decided to denounce the comments AFTER it became a national issue. That's my problem with the whole situation.

[Kelly]

I don't think the media is going to let this thing go. I think his speech was a sincere speech, I don't doubt that.......but this is not going to go away after this speech.

[StorminNorman]

you're catching on:cwink:

No - the idea of Bush campaign making phone calls claiming McCain had a black baby never happened.

[Mr Sparkle]

If he found that sort of rhetoric as distasteful as he now finds it - why did he continue going...for 20 years.

Why did he give the man responsible for saying such hate the position of Spiritual Guide?

Obama knew damn well what this guy believed and continued to strengthen his relationship with him. He is liable for him.

:huh: because he introduced him to Christianity.
plus, who cares, no politician is religious anyway.

[Mr Sparkle]

No - the idea of Bush campaign making phone calls claiming McCain had a black baby never happened.

and Obama is not racist or anti-american.
non-issue, being turned into important issue.
same thing.:o

[Marx]

For someone that complained about how completely off the subject the whole Ferraro thing was from the main issues, you sure don't want to let this go.

I don't recall complaining about that. All I am trying to say is that there is a huge difference between what Ferraro said in response to a question at a private paid event and what Rev. Wright has been preaching for the past 20 years.

I guess I'm just not understanding how people cannot think this is a big deal...but make such a deal out of Ferraro's comments. I wasn't directly referring to you in my previous post, just so you know. I don't believe you blindly support anyone. Help me understand Souv.

[souvlaki]

Because he only decided to denounce the comments AFTER it became a national issue. That's my problem with the whole situation.

Well, he probably did so for political reasons when he did find out.

Church isn't about the pastor, it's about the community. Walking out on the sermon isn't walking out on Wright, it's walking out on the community, a community which is better served by Obama being present and voicing his own views in contrast to those of Wright. We have no clue what they talked about in private, or if Obama confronted him about it in private after he found out. It doesn't really matter anymore. This is screwed up for all people involved, and Obama is going to pay politically for it. But seriously, this is beating a dead horse. Can we actually start talking about something other than scandals in this retarded primary?

[StorminNorman]

I don't think the media is going to let this thing go. I think his speech was a sincere speech, I don't doubt that.......but this is not going to go away after this speech.

How can you not doubt it? Again - this man not only attended Wright's church for TWENTY YEARS, but he had a friendship with this man - a relationship. He knew exactly what he though and still made this man his Spiritual Guide. Anything short of acknowledging this is an obvious lie by Obama. You can't, with any real credibility, condemn the language of a man you know and respect simply because the media finally found out about it. If he really felt this man's words were condemnable - he would not be in the situation he is in today.

[Marx]

Well, he probably did so for political reasons when he did find out.

Church isn't about the pastor, it's about the community. Walking out on the sermon isn't walking out on Wright, it's walking out on the community, a community which is better served by Obama being present and voicing his own views in contrast to those of Wright. We have no clue what they talked about in private, or if Obama confronted him about it in private after he found out. It doesn't really matter anymore. This is screwed up for all people involved, and Obama is going to pay politically for it. But seriously, this is beating a dead horse. Can we actually start talking about something other than scandals in this retarded primary?

That being said though, the Pastor represents the church. If you do not like what the Pastor is saying, you leave the church. It happens all the time.

[StorminNorman]

and Obama is not racist or anti-american.
non-issue, being turned into important issue.
same thing.:o

But this is an issue. It has become an issue of Obama's judgment - if nothing else. Obama is now developing a trend of associating himself with bad people.

And Obama being potentially racist or anti-American is still, very much, an issue. I don't necessarily agree with it - but many of the unwashed masses will after hearing those comments. This, added with Obama's failure to salute, failure to wear the pin, the comments of his wife, etc. are adding up. His middle name being Hussein won't help either. Again, I do not personally care about any of those last issues and do not question his patriotism - but many will and Obama has supplied the ammo.

[souvlaki]

That being said though, the Pastor represents the church. If you do not like what the Pastor is saying, you leave the church. It happens all the time.

It's not easy for a well known politician to just leave a church. Like I said, he's not walking out on a pastor, he's walking out on a community. Let's assume Obama did know what this pastor said, but after the fact. There is no evidence that Obama didn't confront him about this in private, which would make far more sense then making a big deal out of it in public, drawing the attention to the church, and turning that community against him. Isn't Wright's church the largest, and one of the most respected African American churches in Chicago?

[StorminNorman]

Well, he probably did so for political reasons when he did find out.

Church isn't about the pastor, it's about the community. Walking out on the sermon isn't walking out on Wright, it's walking out on the community, a community which is better served by Obama being present and voicing his own views in contrast to those of Wright. We have no clue what they talked about in private, or if Obama confronted him about it in private after he found out. It doesn't really matter anymore. This is screwed up for all people involved, and Obama is going to pay politically for it. But seriously, this is beating a dead horse. Can we actually start talking about something other than scandals in this retarded primary?

Sorry, but I am calling bull.

Are you telling me that if were living in some small town in Alabama and the pastor starts making horrible racist comments about ******s down the road - it is your duty to stay there and listen to it?

And we do know what Obama talked with Wright in private - we know he offered him a position. We know he considered him his spiritual adviser. We know that he clearly didn't find these comments nearly as offensive as he states they are now. And if he did, shame on him for promoting Wright and the rhetoric he found to be over the line.

[souvlaki]

But this is an issue. It has become an issue of Obama's judgment - if nothing else. Obama is now developing a trend of associating himself with bad people.

And Obama being potentially racist or anti-American is still, very much, an issue. I don't necessarily agree with it - but many of the unwashed masses will after hearing those comments. This, added with Obama's failure to salute, failure to wear the pin, the comments of his wife, etc. are adding up. His middle name being Hussein won't help either. Again, I do not personally care about any of those last issues and do not question his patriotism - but many will and Obama has supplied the ammo.

Yep... which is why in the end this will probably just result in McCain being elected. Oh well. It was a fun presidential race while it lasted. Actually, no it wasn't.

[StorminNorman]

It's not easy for a well known politician to just leave a church. Like I said, he's not walking out on a pastor, he's walking out on a community. Let's assume Obama did know what this pastor said, but after the fact. There is no evidence that Obama didn't confront him about this in private, which would make far more sense then making a big deal out of it in public, drawing the attention to the church, and turning that community against him. Isn't Wright's church the largest, and one of the most respected African American churches in Chicago?

It IS easy for a well known politician to leave a church that is guilty of having racist sermons. Its VERY EASY. In fact, its more politically expedient to do so than to not do so.

The idea we have to simply "assume" Obama did know what the pastor said is ridiculous - he DID know.

There IS plenty of evidence showing that Obama did not confront him simply because of the power and influence Obama gave the man.

If Obama wanted to do the right thing, which would be to remove a man spewing hate and racism from the pulpit, he would of made it an issue and "cleaned up" the church by removing this scumbag. Instead he did the easy thing, the wrong thing and simply ignored it. That is what I care about out of this mess.

[StorminNorman]

Yep... which is why in the end this will probably just result in McCain being elected. Oh well. It was a fun presidential race while it lasted. Actually, no it wasn't.

If and when McCain is elected - you can only really blame one man. Barack Obama. It was his mishandling of this entire situation that will probably destroy him.

[Marx]

Yep... which is why in the end this will probably just result in McCain being elected. Oh well. It was a fun presidential race while it lasted. Actually, no it wasn't.

I'm not convinced that all of this division within the Democratic party will lead to a McCain presidency.

[StorminNorman]

I'm not convinced that all of this division within the Democratic party will lead to a McCain presidency.

The Democrat party will be united. The Republican party has been united by Obama's comments (I believe Obama's pastor has given the GOP a reason to unite against him now).

The key is the independents.

Hillary, frankly, I find unelectable - and she has done her no favors this primary. She has made Experience a crucial crutch of her campaign. She has claimed that Obama's lack of experience makes him a poor choice for Commander and Chief. McCain's campaign will be able to use that. Big time.

Obama use to be a home run for independents - I think this wave of racism and anti-american sentiments will continue and drive a lot of middle roaders away from Obama.

[souvlaki]

I'm not convinced that all of this division within the Democratic party will lead to a McCain presidency.

Well, I'll support either candidate in November. But I still think Hillary is in a bad position regardless, and even then she still has a long way to go to even win the nomination. If Obama can bury this before June, then he's still got a chance, but if he keeps getting hammered about this, like StorminNormin said, he will have problems with independents, and he's completely kissed off any chance of courting Republicans like he has up to this point.

[Tron5000]

The Democrat party will be united. The Republican party has been united by Obama's comments (I believe Obama's pastor has given the GOP a reason to unite against him now).

The key is the independents.

Hillary, frankly, I find unelectable - and she has done her no favors this primary. She has made Experience a crucial crutch of her campaign. She has claimed that Obama's lack of experience makes him a poor choice for Commander and Chief. McCain's campaign will be able to use that. Big time.

Obama use to be a home run for independents - I think this wave of racism and anti-american sentiments will continue and drive a lot of middle roaders away from Obama.

I have already begun to see this statement come to fruition. I know people who were Obama supporters and now say, "There's no way I can vote for him now. I certainly don't trust Hillary to lead this country, so I guess I have to give my vote to McCain." There are many middle-road voters who would not vote for Hillary, and now feel they can not vote for Obama. Hey, at least for these people, the alternative is McCain rather than Huckabee.

[StorminNorman]

Well, I'll support either candidate in November. But I still think Hillary is in a bad position regardless, and even then she still has a long way to go to even win the nomination. If Obama can bury this before June, then he's still got a chance, but if he keeps getting hammered about this, like StorminNormin said, he will have problems with independents, and he's completely kissed off any chance of courting Republicans like he has up to this point.

If Obama is allowed to bury this by June, the GOP deserves to lose. It is their duty to make sure no one forgets.

[Marx]

I have already begun to see this statement come to fruition. I know people who were Obama supporters and now say, "There's no way I can vote for him now. I certainly don't trust Hillary to lead this country, so I guess I have to give my vote to McCain." There are many middle-road voters who would not vote for Hillary, and now feel they can not vote for Obama. Hey, at least for these people, the alternative is McCain rather than Huckabee.

I couldn't be more thrilled that Huckabee dropped out! (As a side note :yay:)

[souvlaki]

Hey, at least for these people, the alternative is McCain rather than Huckabee.

Very true. I'd be terrified right now if Huckabee were the nominee. I think I can at least stomach 4 years with McCain as President.

[Marx]

Very true. I'd be terrified right now if Huckabee were the nominee. I think I can at least stomach 4 years with McCain as President.

I don't think terrified is a strong enough word Souv :funny:

[Victor Creed]

Very true. I'd be terrified right now if Huckabee were the nominee. I think I can at least stomach 4 years with McCain as President.

Yea, at least he doesn't think he's funny.




Could you imagine every speech starting with a Chuck Norris fact.....:huh:

[souvlaki]

If Obama is allowed to bury this by June, the GOP deserves to lose. It is their duty to make sure no one forgets.

Well, not bury it... but it's like anything in politics, or the media. People forget fast, the subject moves on to other scandals. This is pretty big, but so was the Flowers scandal with Clinton back in 1992. I am not saying it will go away. If I thought that, I wouldn't be saying I thought McCain had a good chance. But it may not be as big of an issue six months from now. It all depends on how Obama handles this in the next few weeks, and really, how the media cover it.

[Tron5000]

Very true. I'd be terrified right now if Huckabee were the nominee. I think I can at least stomach 4 years with McCain as President.

What about Huckabee do you find so terrifying?

[Marx]

Yea, at least he doesn't think he's funny.




Could you imagine every speech starting with a Chuck Norris fact.....:huh:

I'm still shuddering at the McCain possibility of everything beginning and ending with "My friends."

Ugh.

[Marx]

What about Huckabee do you find so terrifying?

Chiming in with my two cents - The fact that he is a former baptist preacher and would run the country as such...that he said that gays should be qurantined because of the AIDS virus...that the government should reflect god's standards and not Americans...I could go on and on. He's incredibly close minded and ignorant.

[The Senator]

I'm not convinced that all of this division within the Democratic party will lead to a McCain presidency.

Neither am I, considering Clinton is starting to do better than Obama in a head-to-head match up against McCain. They are both in a good position to defeat McCain.

[BlackLantern]

I agree that all this back and forth between Obama and Hilary will lead into a victory for McCain because the Republican party can say "look we're united behind our candidate while the Dems can't get their **** together"

[souvlaki]

What about Huckabee do you find so terrifying?

Um... Have you listened to the man speak? Before getting into a debate about this, I'll just tell you I am fairly liberal, support gay rights, think there should be a seperation between church and state, support a woman's right to choose when it comes to abortion, and I'm an atheist. Does that answer your question?

[The Senator]

What about Huckabee do you find so terrifying?

I'll answer this one:

The fact that he wants to amend the constitution to reflect God's standards in a country which isn't suppose to pay tribute to one God or religion. Not only that, but I'm pretty sure one of the provisions in the God Loving Constitution would be "make homosexuals second-class citizens" (well, that's at least how it would appear in the eyes of a homosexual).

Even if such a goal has no chance of ever being enacted, the fact that he wants to do it scares the dickens out of me.

[Mr Sparkle]

But this is an issue. It has become an issue of Obama's judgment - if nothing else. Obama is now developing a trend of associating himself with bad people.

And Obama being potentially racist or anti-American is still, very much, an issue. I don't necessarily agree with it - but many of the unwashed masses will after hearing those comments. This, added with Obama's failure to salute, failure to wear the pin, the comments of his wife, etc. are adding up. His middle name being Hussein won't help either. Again, I do not personally care about any of those last issues and do not question his patriotism - but many will and Obama has supplied the ammo.

not really, it's a non-issue being given importance.
potentially racist?:huh: I don't think anyone with two brain cells to rub together would believe that.
or the " anti-american" stuff either.
the unwashed masses will follow the cues of their betters, and if their betters are making an issue out of this?

well, then there you go.

[jaguarr]

If and when McCain is elected - you can only really blame one man. Barack Obama. It was his mishandling of this entire situation that will probably destroy him.

Really, Norman? If McCain wins it's all Obama's fault? Seriously?

jag

[Tron5000]

Um... Have you listened to the man speak? Before getting into a debate about this, I'll just tell you I am fairly liberal, support gay rights, think there should be a seperation between church and state, a woman's right to choose, and I'm an atheist. Does that answer your question?

I was not intending to get into a debate. I merely asked what about him you found so terrifying. Does that answer your question?

[Marx]

Neither am I, considering Clinton is starting to do better than Obama in a head-to-head match up against McCain. They are both in a good position to defeat McCain.

I agree that all this back and forth between Obama and Hilary will lead into a victory for McCain because the Republican party can say "look we're united behind our candidate while the Dems can't get their **** together"

When an actual nominee arises, the party will be united. The discontent with the Bush Administration is enough to prove that. The Dems aren't going to let another 4 years pass under a Republican president.

[StorminNorman]

Neither am I, considering Clinton is starting to do better than Obama in a head-to-head match up against McCain. They are both in a good position to defeat McCain.

McCain currently beats Clinton in Penn, Ohio and Florida.

Then again - these polls don't mean anything at all anyway.

[jaguarr]

I'll answer this one:

The fact that he wants to amend the constitution to reflect God's standards in a country which isn't suppose to pay tribute to one God or religion. Not only that, but I'm pretty sure one of the provisions in the God Loving Constitution would be "make homosexuals second-class citizens" (well, that's at least how it would appear in the eyes of a homosexual).

Even if such a goal has no chance of ever being enacted, the fact that he wants to do it scares the dickens out of me.

I agree with you on that one. :up:

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

If Obama is allowed to bury this by June, the GOP deserves to lose. It is their duty to make sure no one forgets.

see?

[StorminNorman]

not really, it's a non-issue being given importance.
potentially racist?:huh: I don't think anyone with two brain cells to rub together would believe that.
or the " anti-american" stuff either.
the unwashed masses will follow the cues of their betters, and if their betters are making an issue out of this?

well, then there you go.

The patriotism of a President is an issue. Obama still faces this issue - and the longer it lives, the more and more harm it will do to him.

[The Senator]

Jman,

what do you think would be a better way for him to handle it? aside from switching churches 20 years ago ;)

He should have said he was saddened by Rev. Wright's comments and that he strongly disagreed with what he had to say. Then he should have discussed why race is important, and why he agrees that people of all races should stand united.

He certainly shouldn't have said he considers Rev. Wright a member of his family and a close friend. That's what made the speech completely irrelevant-- he kinda sorta denounced Rev. Wright, but not really. That made the whole thing very flimsy.

[Marx]

see?

I believe that the large majority of people can finally see through the tactics of the Republican Spin Machine.

[souvlaki]

I was not intending to get into a debate. I merely asked what about him you found so terrifying. Does that answer your question?

I was not looking for a debate either. That's why I just flat out told you where I stand on things, and why I could never stomach the possibility of him as President. I just found it to be an odd question considering it's pretty obvious why I would be terrified by the thought of him as President, even before I made that post.

[StorminNorman]

Really, Norman? If McCain wins it's all Obama's fault? Seriously?

jag

At this point - yes. Obama of two weeks ago would wipe the floor with McCain. Obama will never get back to that flawless perception he once owned. Obama's failure to address this issue before it exploded has done that. He had control over this situation and he bumbled it.

[BlackLantern]

When an actual nominee arises, the party will be united. The discontent with the Bush Administration is enough to prove that. The Dems aren't going to let another 4 years pass under a Republican president.

Maybe the party but not supporters....if Hilary gets the nom, the Obama supporters will NOT support Hilary....Obama not getting nominated means a lot of people that were going to vote will simply stay home...thus handing McCain the presidency.

[Marx]

He should have said he was saddened by Rev. Wright's comments and that he strongly disagreed with what he had to say. Then he should have discussed why race is important, and why he agrees that people of all races should stand united.

He certainly shouldn't have said he considers Rev. Wright a member of his family and a close friend. That's what made the speech completely irrelevant-- he kinda sorta denounced Rev. Wright, but not really. That made the whole thing very flimsy.

The speech didn't accomplish anything because of the stance he took.

[Matt]

He should have said he was saddened by Rev. Wright's comments and that he strongly disagreed with what he had to say. Then he should have discussed why race is important, and why he agrees that people of all races should stand united.

He certainly shouldn't have said he considers Rev. Wright a member of his family and a close friend. That's what made the speech completely irrelevant-- he kinda sorta denounced Rev. Wright, but not really. That made the whole thing very flimsy.

I also feel he owes America an explanation as to why he attended this church for 20 years if he disagrees with what this man was saying.

[Tron5000]

I was not looking for a debate either. That's why I just flat out told you where I stand on things, and why I could never stomach the possibility of him as President. I just found it to be an odd question considering it's pretty obvious why I would be terrified by the thought of him as President, even before I made that post.

I was just wondering what it was about him with which you disagreed. There are many reasons to dislike the man; I was just wondering what caused you to do so.

Hell, I'm voting for McCain, but I can give you a laundry list of issues on which we greatly disagree.

[souvlaki]

He should have said he was saddened by Rev. Wright's comments and that he strongly disagreed with what he had to say. Then he should have discussed why race is important, and why he agrees that people of all races should stand united.

He certainly shouldn't have said he considers Rev. Wright a member of his family and a close friend. That's what made the speech completely irrelevant-- he kinda sorta denounced Rev. Wright, but not really. That made the whole thing very flimsy.

Well, you don't always agree with your friends or family. And you don't just abandon your friends when you don't agree with them either.

[Marx]

Maybe the party but not supporters....if Hilary gets the nom, the Obama supporters will NOT support Hilary....Obama not getting nominated means a lot of people that were going to vote will simply stay home...thus handing McCain the presidency.

That's where I disagree BL. I think that the Bush Administration has done so much damage to this country, that the party/supporters/voters will unite to take back the White House.

[Tron5000]

Well, you don't always agree with your friends or family. And you don't just abandon your friends when you don't agree with them either.

When your friends are unabashed, America-hating racists, um, yeah, you do.

[Matt]

I'm voting for Jesse The Body. :o

[souvlaki]

I was just wondering what it was about him with which you disagreed. There are many reasons to dislike the man; I was just wondering what caused you to do so.

Hell, I'm voting for McCain, but I can give you a laundry list of issues on which we greatly disagree.

Oh, okay. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound stand off-ish in my original comment. I just thought you were questioning my dislike for Huckabee as opposed to just wondering what I disliked about him.

[The Senator]

McCain currently beats Clinton in Penn, Ohio and Florida.

Then again - these polls don't mean anything at all anyway.

Actually I just read a poll where she's ahead two points in PA and four points in Ohio. She also has a 15-point lead in Arkansas and is tied in Virginia.

[souvlaki]

When your friends are unabashed, America-hating racists, um, yeah, you do.

I'm assuming you've never had family that lived in the south, have you?

[Marx]

Actually I just read a poll where she's ahead two points in PA and four points in Ohio. She also has a 15-point lead in Arkansas and is tied in Virginia.

Polls are turning in her favor.

[The Senator]

Well, you don't always agree with your friends or family. And you don't just abandon your friends when you don't agree with them either.

This isn't an episode of 'Friends.'

This is politics. You sit down with the man and say, "look, I can't stand by you for the remainder of the election." If he doesn't understand, that's too bad. Candidates do this sort of thing all the time. It's called covering your ass. And that's what Obama should have done, since I'm sure he wants to win this election.

[jaguarr]

When your friends are unabashed, America-hating racists, um, yeah, you do.

Everyone Obama is friends or acquaintances with is an unabashed, America-hating racist? Interesting.

jag

[BlackLantern]

That's where I disagree BL. I think that the Bush Administration has done so much damage to this country, that the party/supporters/voters will unite to take back the White House.

Ideally, thats' what should happen...but I don't think it will.

[Marx]

I also feel he owes America an explanation as to why he attended this church for 20 years if he disagrees with what this man was saying.

He's avoiding that question all together.

[Tron5000]

I'm assuming you've never had family that lived in the south, have you?

I live in the South. Georgia. Have all my life, as well as has my entire family.

None of them fit under the description I gave of "unabashed, America-hating racists." But thank you for judging me as well as my family based solely on our geographic location.

And we were talking about the bigotry of Obama's pastor. Interesting...I see it is alive on these boards as well.

[jaguarr]

At this point - yes. Obama of two weeks ago would wipe the floor with McCain. Obama will never get back to that flawless perception he once owned. Obama's failure to address this issue before it exploded has done that. He had control over this situation and he bumbled it.

I've never seen any polls showing Obama wiping the floor with McCain. Ahead by enough of a margin to think he would probably win, but not by such a margin that it would be a landslide. And to put all the blame the man for McCain winning seems excessive to say the least.

jag

[ShadowBoxing]

Maybe the party but not supporters....if Hilary gets the nom, the Obama supporters will NOT support Hilary....Obama not getting nominated means a lot of people that were going to vote will simply stay home...thus handing McCain the presidency.
Both Hillary and Obama have 70% approval ratings amongst Dems, meaning that whichever wins at the very least 70% will be satisfied with the outcome. The party can unite behind either.

[souvlaki]

This isn't an episode of 'Friends.'

This is politics. You sit down with the man and say, "look, I can't stand by you for the remainder of the election." If he doesn't understand, that's too bad. Candidates do this sort of thing all the time. It's called covering your ass. And that's what Obama should have done, since I'm sure he wants to win this election.

Wait... how has he not done this? It's one thing to condemn his views, it's another thing to just turn your back completely on someone that has been a family friend for years. That is a hard choice to make to just completely abandon a friend. He's condemned the man's words, said he doesn't agree with them.

At any rate, this conversation is going around in circles.

[BlackLantern]

Well, you don't always agree with your friends or family. And you don't just abandon your friends when you don't agree with them either.

Bull**** you don't. If a friend is causing irreparable damage to your candidacy or reputation, you tell them to kick rocks. If I was running for President, I'd make sure all my ducks were in a neat little row. Hell, I'd go apologize to that kid in third grade who I pushed to the ground during recess.

[Marx]

Wait... how has he not done this? It's one thing to condemn his views, it's another thing to just turn your back completely on someone that has been a family friend for years. That is a hard choice to make to just completely abandon a friend. He's condemned the man's words, said he doesn't agree with them.

At any rate, this conversation is going around in circles.

Only AFTER it became a national issue. Not exactly a convincing argument on Obama's behalf.

[Matt]

Wait... how has he not done this? It's one thing to condemn his views, it's another thing to just turn your back completely on someone that has been a family friend for years. That is a hard choice to make to just completely abandon a friend. He's condemned the man's words, said he doesn't agree with them.

At any rate, this conversation is going around in circles.

Because a condemnation (is that a word?) seems hollow when you do it after listening to this man's racist rants for 20 years and ONLY condemn him after the national spotlight shines on his racism while you are running for president. And even when you do condemn him, you say "Well, he's like family to me so I'm not going to say anything bad about him...but yeah, what he said was wrong."

[Matt]

Bull**** you don't. If a friend is causing irreparable damage to your candidacy or reputation, you tell them to kick rocks. If I was running for President, I'd make sure all my ducks were in a neat little row. Hell, I'd go apologize to that kid in third grade who I pushed to the ground during recess.

You're a monster. :csad:

[Mr Sparkle]

The patriotism of a President is an issue. Obama still faces this issue - and the longer it lives, the more and more harm it will do to him.

and the patriotism of Obama is impossible to question.
it lives because people are looking for reasons that don't sound like THEY are racist, ironically enough.
I mean, they questioned Kerry's patriotism, didn't they?

why do people keep " questioning" people'd patriotism.
I'm sure he'll hand over the nation to Osama the day of his innaguration.

[Victor Creed]

Bull**** you don't. If a friend is causing irreparable damage to your candidacy or reputation, you tell them to kick rocks. If I was running for President, I'd make sure all my ducks were in a neat little row. Hell, I'd go apologize to that kid in third grade who I pushed to the ground during recess.

And then he'd use his lipstick to mark your name off his hit list........

[BlackLantern]

Because a condemnation (is that a word?) seems hollow when you do it after listening to this man's racist rants for 20 years and ONLY condemn him after the national spotlight shines on his racism while you are running for president. And even when you do condemn him, you say "Well, he's like family to me so I'm not going to say anything bad about him...but yeah, what he said was wrong."

McCain handled his own situation perfectly...he addressed it that very day and denounced the guy. Obama decided to wait almost a week to address this. If he sits on his hands concerning an issue like this, how will his decision making be if he becomes President.

[The Senator]

Wait... how has he not done this? It's one thing to condemn his views, it's another thing to just turn your back completely on someone that has been a family friend for years. That is a hard choice to make to just completely abandon a friend. He's condemned the man's words, said he doesn't agree with them.

At any rate, this conversation is going around in circles.

No, he disassociated himself from Wright's comments... but he also added in that he respects the man and considers him a close friend. He shouldn't have said the latter half. The latter half makes people think that he still associates with the man. It makes people think that he's kinda sorta apologizing, when he should be apologizing outright.

And actually, I don't think he apologized for Wright's words at all, now that I think about it. So he didn't do what many people wanted to do in the first place. He continued to pussyfoot around the issue, like he normally does.

[jaguarr]

You're a monster. :csad:

I'm going to need you to go ahead and resign from the campaign, Matt. I can't have people calling my opponents "monsters".

jag

[jaguarr]

No, he disassociated himself from Wright's comments... but he also added in that he respects the man and considers him a close friend. He shouldn't have said the latter half. The latter half makes people think that he still associates with the man. It makes people think that he's kinda sorta apologizing, when he should be apologizing outright.

And actually, I don't think he apologized for Wright's words at all, now that I think about it. So he didn't do what many people wanted to do in the first place. He continued to pussyfoot around the issue, like he normally does.

I agree that he should have left that last part out about Wright being his friend and all, but why should Obama have to apologize for Wright's words? He condemned them. Said he didn't agree with them. He didn't say them so he shouldn't have to apologize for them.

jag

[Marx]

I agree that he should have left that last part out about Wright being his friend and all, but why should Obama have to apologize for Wright's words? He condemned them. Said he didn't agree with them. He didn't say them so he shouldn't have to apologize for them.

jag

Because he only did so AFTER it became a national issue.

(I feel like a broken record.)

[jaguarr]

Because he only did so AFTER it became a national issue.

(I feel like a broken record.)

Then there is absolutely NOTHING he could have EVER said or done that would have satisfied you over this issue.

jag

[BlackLantern]

He should have come out and denounced the guy alltogether....stuff like this can sway voters who are on the fence.

[StorminNorman]

Then there is absolutely NOTHING he could have EVER said or done that would have satisfied you over this issue.

jag

He could of left the church when he found out the preacher was making disgusting comments.

[StorminNorman]

and the patriotism of Obama is impossible to question.
it lives because people are looking for reasons that don't sound like THEY are racist, ironically enough.
I mean, they questioned Kerry's patriotism, didn't they?

why do people keep " questioning" people'd patriotism.
I'm sure he'll hand over the nation to Osama the day of his innaguration.

People don't want a President that views America has evil, or associates them with the KKK. There is nothing wrong in that.

[jaguarr]

He could of left the church when he found out the preacher was making disgusting comments.

Do you really think that would have stopped the attacks over all this? Really? They would have continued with the added complaint that Obama is a fairweather friend and flip-flopper who only does things for political gain.

jag

[BlackLantern]

Do you really think that would have stopped the attacks over all this? Really? They would have continued with the added complaint that Obama is a fairweather friend and flip-flopper who only does things for political gain.

jag

Then maybe this whole thing is a sign that Obama isn't ready for the Presidency....yet.

[jaguarr]

Then maybe this whole thing is a sign that Obama isn't ready for the Presidency....yet.

I take it more as a sign that America may not be ready to stop electing people like McCain and Billary who are very old guard and certain to maintain the status quo in this country as far as the way politics have worked. I realize Obama is a career politician, too, but he's at least spoken of wanting to break the stranglehold that's on American politics currently and start trying to do what's right for everyone, not just what the corporations, lobbyists and uber-rich want to happen.

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

People don't want a President that views America has evil, or associates them with the KKK. There is nothing wrong in that.

and Obama has done neither.
so....uh....no issue.
you pretty much said that you don't believe it yourself, perpetuating it?
why do that?:huh:

[StorminNorman]

and Obama has done neither.
so....uh....no issue.
you pretty much said that you don't believe it yourself, perpetuating it?
why do that?:huh:

Obama did nothing while allowing such misguided sermons be preached at a church he visited. He became great friends with the man that said these same, hateful words. He made that same man his spiritual adviser. Thats horrible judgment.

I am perpetuating because I don't want Obama elected. Thus it is my job to create doubt in the minds of people about Obama. Obama has given me a the means to do this. Its very simple really.

[BlackLantern]

Obama did nothing while allowing such misguided sermons be preached at a church he visited. He became great friends with the man that said these same, hateful words. He made that same man his spiritual adviser. Thats horrible judgment.

and to most people, that is just as bad as Obama holding those views himself.

[StorminNorman]

Do you really think that would have stopped the attacks over all this? Really? They would have continued with the added complaint that Obama is a fairweather friend and flip-flopper who only does things for political gain.

jag

You misunderstand me.

If Obama left the church years ago, before he started running for President, as soon as he heard this hateful speech - THEN he would of handled this properly.

Leaving an organization because you find the hate speech they preach to be disgusting is admirable. What he did instead, is not.

[Marx]

I take it more as a sign that America may not be ready to stop electing people like McCain and Billary who are very old guard and certain to maintain the status quo in this country as far as the way politics have worked. I realize Obama is a career politician, too, but he's at least spoken of wanting to break the stranglehold that's on American politics currently and start trying to do what's right for everyone, not just what the corporations, lobbyists and uber-rich want to happen.

jag

Everyone in every political race claims those very same things. Obama has just elevated the rhetoric.

[jaguarr]

You misunderstand me.

If Obama left the church years ago, before he started running for President, as soon as he heard this hateful speech - THEN he would of handled this properly.

Leaving an organization because you find the hate speech they preach to be disgusting is admirable. What he did instead, is not.

Like I said; there is NOTHING he could have said or done to EVER appease some people over the situation as it stands today. I'm not talking about what should have happened in the past but solely about how he could have handled this present situation.

And, yes, I'm well aware that are people in this thread who's only goal is to undermine the man. Kudos to you for at least owning up to it.

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

I am perpetuating because I don't want Obama elected. Thus it is my job to create doubt in the minds of people about Obama. Obama has given me a the means to do this. Its very simple really.

and since you don't have any real reason why he shouldn't you manufacture a threat?

hahaha, yeah. do get into politics :up:
it's really simple, indeed.
because you make it simple, because sadly, you perpetuate the mentality that keeps politics innefectual.

[jaguarr]

Everyone in every political race claims those very same things. Obama has just elevated the rhetoric.

Obama was the only one in this race (apart from nutjobs like Ron Paul) that appeared to be sincere about wanting to change how things in Washington are ran. Hillary and McCain are hardly believable in that respect.

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

Leaving an organization because you find the hate speech they preach to be disgusting is admirable. What he did instead, is not.

hahahahaha, "hate speech".

[StorminNorman]

hahahahaha, "hate speech".

Wright's comments were hate speech, yes?

[Marx]

Like I said; there is NOTHING he could have said or done to EVER appease some people over the situation as it stands today. I'm not talking about what should have happened in the past but solely about how he could have handled this present situation.

And, yes, I'm well aware that are people in this thread who's only goal is to undermine the man. Kudos to you for at least owning up to it.

jag

You honestly don't find it convenient that he only denounces this man's comments AFTER it becomes a national issue while he's running for president? Come on, Jag.

[Matt]

I agree that he should have left that last part out about Wright being his friend and all, but why should Obama have to apologize for Wright's words? He condemned them. Said he didn't agree with them. He didn't say them so he shouldn't have to apologize for them.

jag

He should have at least apologized for lying (Which he did not). He claimed when this story first broke that he was unaware of Wright's words, but then he claimed today that he was in the pews for them. Sounds like a lie from a man who claims to never lie.

[Mr Sparkle]

Wright's comments were hate speech, yes?

no different from any chruch in the US.
so, yes.
they were, it seems when aimed at gays nobody cares, but hey, don't aim it at the white man, and forget that he routinely lambasted black people as well.
but yeah.

sure.

hate speech, the chruch is the same as the KKK.
whatever let's you believe you're fighting a villian.:cwink:

[Matt]

Like I said; there is NOTHING he could have said or done to EVER appease some people over the situation as it stands today. I'm not talking about what should have happened in the past but solely about how he could have handled this present situation.

And, yes, I'm well aware that are people in this thread who's only goal is to undermine the man. Kudos to you for at least owning up to it.

jag

In all fairness though, can't the same be said about certain Obama supporters (Souvalki, Excel, even yourself to an extent, Jag)...no matter what he does, you will support him.

[StorminNorman]

and since you don't have any real reason why he shouldn't you manufacture a threat?

hahaha, yeah. do get into politics :up:
it's really simple, indeed.
because you make it simple, because sadly, you perpetuate the mentality that keeps politics innefectual.

I have plenty of reasons why I don't want Obama President. But those are about issues - health care, defense, global taxes, etc.

The thing is that I fully understand how little the voting masses fully understand or care about the real issues. They prefer theatricality and drama. This fits.

It just so happens that is also involves an issue that truly does impact Obama. Again - it shows an incredibly lack of judgment which I find troubling. If Obama can't stand against a hate filled preacher - how can he stand up against dictators?

[Mr Sparkle]

The thing is that I fully understand how little the voting masses fully understand or care about the real issues. They prefer theatricality and drama. This fits.

It just so happens that is also involves an issue that truly does impact Obama. Again - it shows an incredibly lack of judgment which I find troubling. If Obama can't stand against a hate filled preacher - how can he stand up against dictators?

hahaha, please.:whatever:
simplistic, innefectual ********, the kind that keeps the majority of the people uninformed, and more readily controlled by people who " know better ".

hahahaha, chilling mindset you have there.:cwink:

[StorminNorman]

no different from any chruch in the US.
so, yes.
they were, it seems when aimed at gays nobody cares, but hey, don't aim it at the white man, and forget that he routinely lambasted black people as well.
but yeah.

sure.

hate speech, the chruch is the same as the KKK.
whatever let's you believe you're fighting a villian.:cwink:

My church doesn't stick America with the KKK. My church doesn't pin AIDS on America. My church doesn't make comments against a race. Hell - my church doesn't even condemn gays, muslims or those that don't fit their faith. My church doesn't require a non-negotiable commitment to Africa or any other country.

Sorry - you are incorrect.

[Matt]

Sparkle, stay on topic, please.

[jaguarr]

You honestly don't find it convenient that he only denounces this man's comments AFTER it becomes a national issue while he's running for president? Come on, Jag.

Does ANY politician denounce things like this before the **** hits the fan? And even if they do does it come off as anything but damage control before the **** hit the fan BECAUSE they knew it was going to hit the fan?

He should have at least apologized for lying (Which he did not). He claimed when this story first broke that he was unaware of Wright's words, but then he claimed today that he was in the pews for them. Sounds like a lie from a man who claims to never lie.

Maybe. Maybe not.

In all fairness though, can't the same be said about certain Obama supporters (Souvalki, Excel, even yourself to an extent, Jag)...no matter what he does, you will support him.

What about Clinton supporters? Or McCain supporters? People who stick with those candidates no matter how much crap churns up around them? They do exactly the same. I've already said that I haven't decided whether Obama is someone I would vote for or not. But I'm at least trying to keep the same perspective about him as I am McCain and Hillary, neither of which I like very much at all as I have admitted previously.

jag

[StorminNorman]

hahaha, please.:whatever:
simplistic, innefectual ********, the kind that keeps the majority of the people uninformed, and more readily controlled by people who " know better ".

hahahaha, chilling mindset you have there.:cwink:

I always discuss the issues. I care about the issues. But you are living in another reality if you think most of the people do.

And, again, I find this issue to be very serious and relevant. While the relevance I see is not about Obama's patriotism, they are just as serious and, IMO, troubling.

[Matt]

Maybe. Maybe not.

How is it not a lie? Last week when this first hit, he claimed to never here the pastor speak this way. Today he admitted that he did. That means he confessed to lying.



What about Clinton supporters? Or McCain supporters? People who stick with those candidates no matter how much crap churns up around them? They do exactly the same. I've already said that I haven't decided whether Obama is someone I would vote for or not. But I'm at least trying to keep the same perspective about him as I am McCain and Hillary, neither of which I like very much at all as I have admitted previously.

jag

I think they should stop the double standard as well. As for me, I'm invincible cause I'm not voting for any of them. :woot: Ventura 08! :cwink:

[StorminNorman]

I think they should stop the double standard as well. As for me, I'm invincible cause I'm not voting for any of them. :woot: Ventura 08! :cwink:

I would love it. Ventura/Bloomberg :up:

[Mr Sparkle]

My church doesn't stick America with the KKK. My church doesn't pin AIDS on America. My church doesn't make comments against a race. Hell - my church doesn't even condemn gays, muslims or those that don't fit their faith. My church doesn't require a non-negotiable commitment to Africa or any other country.

Sorry - you are incorrect.

pat robertson one of the most popular religious leaders in the US, and jerry fallwell as well, along with many others have " pinned " 9-11 on the US. condemns muslims.
or, is robertson not really that popular?
or falwell for that matter, who, when he died, a national day of mourning was declared.

sorry, you're just fooling yourself.:cwink:

[Marx]

Does ANY politician denounce things like this before the **** hits the fan? And even if they do does it come off as anything but damage control before the **** hit the fan BECAUSE they knew it was going to hit the fan?
jag

All I'm saying is that if he truly had a problem with what Wright had to say, he had plenty of time to deal with it before it grabbed the nation's attention. He didn't though. He instead placed this man as a "spiritual advisor" to his campaign. Was married by this man, his children were baptized by this man, and used parts of this man's sermons for his books because he found it was "incredbily inspirational." That's not exactly the best way to say you disagree with someone.

[Mr Sparkle]

I always discuss the issues. I care about the issues. But you are living in another reality if you think most of the people do.

And, again, I find this issue to be very serious and relevant. While the relevance I see is not about Obama's patriotism, they are just as serious and, IMO, troubling.

I live in the reality I make.
it is up to us to tell people how unimportant this all is.
but you admitted yourself to using this a theatrics did you not?

so, yeah, perpetuation.

[StorminNorman]

pat robertson one of the most popular religious leaders in the US, and jerry fallwell as well, along with many others have " pinned " 9-11 on the US. condemns muslims.
or, is robertson not really that popular?
or falwell for that matter, who, when he died, a national day of mourning was declared.

sorry, you're just fooling yourself.:cwink:

I condemn those pastors along with Wright. They don't represent me or my faith. They don't represent my church either.

Your comment was targeted at "any church in the US", which is incorrect.

[Kelly]

I'm sorry, but I think this is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.....but if it is used to simply bring up wounds of the past, and not look to the future......then we have lost an opportunity to walk into a better future.

[jaguarr]

All I'm saying is that if he truly had a problem with what Wright had to say, he had plenty of time to deal with it before it grabbed the nation's attention. He didn't though. He instead placed this man as a "spiritual advisor" to his campaign. Was married by this man, his children were baptized by this man, used parts of this man's sermons for his books because he found it was "incredbily inspirational." That's not exactly the best way to say you disagree with someone.

So, it's impossible to condemn parts of a person's beliefs but still love the person? Gotchya.

jag

[jaguarr]

I'm sorry, but I think this is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.....but if it is used to simply bring up wounds of the past, and not look to the future......then we have lost an opportunity to walk into a better future.

Everything in politics is a weapon, Kel. Sadly.

jag

[Marx]

So, it's impossible to condemn parts of a person's beliefs but still love the person? Gotchya.

jag

I think I'm just going to go bang my head into a wall. You're missing my point Jag.

[Mr Sparkle]

I condemn those pastors along with Wright. They don't represent me or my faith. They don't represent my church either.

Your comment was targeted at "any church in the US", which is incorrect.

well, then, most churches.
woops.
again, Bush declared a day of mourning for a biggot.
no outrage then.
if he declares a day of moruning for Falwell, what's to stop him making a bronze statue of Hitler in the middle of the DC lawn.
:huh::cmad:

won't somebody think of the children?:csad:

[Mr Sparkle]

I'm sorry, but I think this is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.....but if it is used to simply bring up wounds of the past, and not look to the future......then we have lost an opportunity to walk into a better future.

there's talk of things that have happened in the last 20 years.
so it's very much about dwelling in the past.
the people perpetuating this KNOW it's not an issue, know Obama is neither racist or Anti-american.
but, it's really about stopping him, because, hell, he WAS dangerous to them.

[StorminNorman]

well, then, most churches.
woops.
again, Bush declared a day of mourning for a biggot.
no outrage then.
if he declares a day of moruning for Falwell, what's to stop him making a bronze statue of Hitler in the middle of the DC lawn.
:huh::cmad:

won't somebody think of the children?:csad:

I would even argue the position of most churches, but I fail to see the relevance.

Again, using the "well Bush did it" tactic isn't very effective.

[Tron5000]

Everyone Obama is friends or acquaintances with is an unabashed, America-hating racist? Interesting.

jag

Didn't say that. I was only talking about 1 of his friends, in response to this post:

Well, you don't always agree with your friends or family. And you don't just abandon your friends when you don't agree with them either.

My comment was directed toward 1 member of Obama's inner circle, not "everyone Obama is friends or acquaintances with." But I can see how you might be able to twist my statement into yours.

Actually, no I don't. Interesting.

[Mr Sparkle]

I would even argue the position of most churches, but I fail to see the relevance.

Again, using the "well Bush did it" tactic isn't very effective.

I would argue that if it is infact " important " it should've been important when a white man did it.
you wouldn't want to appear like a racist would you?:o

[Mr Sparkle]

My comment was directed toward 1 member of Obama's inner circle, not "everyone Obama is friends or acquaintances with." But I can see how you might be able to twist my statement into yours.

Actually, no I don't. Interesting.

actually I do, since you said this

When your friends are unabashed, America-hating racists, um, yeah, you do.

*plural*

[SuBe]

well, then, most churches.
woops.
again, Bush declared a day of mourning for a biggot.
no outrage then.
if he declares a day of moruning for Falwell, what's to stop him making a bronze statue of Hitler in the middle of the DC lawn.
:huh::cmad:

won't somebody think of the children?:csad:

Biggot? What's that? Do you mean Bigot? With one "G"?

[Tron5000]

actually I do, since you said this



*plural*

Then allow me to edit my statement: "When someone close to you is an unabashed, anti-American racist, you tell that person to take a hike and you stay as far the hell away from that specific individual as you can."

Does that work a little better for you?

[Mr Sparkle]

Biggot? What's that? Do you mean Bigot? With one "G"?

yeah, that's what I mean.
man, that must been like a triumph for you? are you smoking a cig right now?
just remember, English is my SECOND language.
I hope that doesn't diminish things for you.:csad:

[YsoSerious]

Why would I change my support for a candidate based on something his Pastor said in Church.I could give a r*ts a*s what his Pastor's opinions are.This is an inner city church on the south side of Chicago.I disagree with some of my Pastors opinions but I'm not looking for another church because of that. Go down south and hear what some of the white preachers are saying and you'll hear the same crap from the other perspective.Let it go people.
" Can we all just get along?" Rodney King

[Mr Sparkle]

Then allow me to edit my statement: "When someone close to you is an unabashed, anti-American racist, you tell that person to take a hike and you stay as far the hell away from that specific individual as you can."

Does that work a little better for you?

it works perfectly for me.
so the guy, Wright, IS an anti-american?:huh:
I mean, I can get the racist thing ( not really, but I'll play along) so, he is anti-american?

[Mr Sparkle]

Why would I change my support for a candidate based on something his Pastor said in Church.I could give a r*ts a*s what his Pastor's opinions are.This is an inner city church on the south side of Chicago.I disagree with some of my Pastors opinions but I'm not looking for another church because of that. Go down south and hear what some of the white preachers are saying and you'll hear the same crap from the other perspective.Let it go people.
" Can we all just get along?" Rodney King

*slow clap*

[StorminNorman]

I would argue that if it is infact " important " it should've been important when a white man did it.
you wouldn't want to appear like a racist would you?:o

Again - I have spoken out against white, extreme pastors as well as the Rev. Wrights of the world.

The difference is that Falwell, Robertson, etc. was not Bush's spiritual adviser. Not his close friend and confident of 20 years. Was not the man that baptized his children. Etc. etc.

[BlackLantern]

Obama should have bought Wright out on stage and kicked him in the nuts...(verbally) that would have fixed things.

[Mr Sparkle]

Again - I have spoken out against white, extreme pastors as well as the Rev. Wrights of the world.

The difference is that Falwell, Robertson, etc. was not Bush's spiritual adviser. Not his close friend and confident of 20 years. Was not the man that baptized his children. Etc. etc.

yeah, he just declared a NATIONAL DAY OF MOURNING (people should be sad, it's a loss for the country) for him.
not like that's a tacit endorsement of the man, I mean, there is national day of mourning for the Oklahoma city bombing planners is there not?

there isn't?

I wonder why that is.

[Kelly]

I worked for the Southern Baptist Convention for 10 years, mostly during college. I have worked in 50+ predominantly white churches in the South, during that time period. NEVER ONCE, have I heard anything that even compares to what Rev. White said...yes Fallwell and Robertson are idiots, and Robertson gets more moronic with age....but just as Wright does not speak for all black pastors.......these 2 men do not speak for all white pastors.......nor are they the spiritual advisor for one of our candidates running for president. Nor, are they looked upon with as much love from one of the candidates, as that candidates parent....nor has any of the candidates sat in their church for 20 years.......so that is a moot point for THIS SITUATION. We can debate all day that there is stupidity and moronic statements yelled from pulpits on any given sunday. IMO, that is not the issue here. With that said....

I'm fine with Obama's speech, I believe him....I think it was heartfelt, and true. I do not understand how he can equate his grandmother's statement "I am sometimes fearful to pass a blackman on the street", or even some ignorant racial terms she has used in the past....to what Rev. White said.....I'm confused in the analogy that he used. He equates his love for this man to that of his grandmother?.........THEN yes, we should be somewhat leary of this man's impact on Barack's mindset......

I understand the Rev. White's heartfelt anger, righteous anger against how he has been treated as a black man in this society......those statements he gave, in my opinion, did not come from righteous anger....it came from hate.....and it seems to me, that if Barack loved, loves this man as much as he says he does, as much as he loves his grandmother, the WOMAN WHO RAISED HIM.....then hopefully he will teach him that that rhetoric takes us no where but backwards. I hope he does....and I hope the Reverend learns a valuable lesson.

[Marx]

Obama should have bought Wright out on stage and kicked him in the nuts...(verbally) that would have fixed things.

:lmao:

[StorminNorman]

Why would I change my support for a candidate based on something his Pastor said in Church.I could give a r*ts a*s what his Pastor's opinions are.This is an inner city church on the south side of Chicago.I disagree with some of my Pastors opinions but I'm not looking for another church because of that. Go down south and hear what some of the white preachers are saying and you'll hear the same crap from the other perspective.Let it go people.
" Can we all just get along?" Rodney King

Because he is not ONLY his Pastor. He is his friend, his spiritual adviser, one of his greatest confidants.

And if your Pastor is preaching hate filled verses against his country, against whites, etc. and you don't leave - it says something about your character. Deciding to embrace a man with those hateful beliefs says even more.

[SuBe]

Don't you think that attending a church for 20 years voluntarily would affect your opinions? Wouldn't you agree with what that pastor was saying, or you wouldn't go?

[StorminNorman]

yeah, he just declared a NATIONAL DAY OF MOURNING (people should be sad, it's a loss for the country) for him.
not like that's a tacit endorsement of the man, I mean, there is national day of mourning for the Oklahoma city bombing planners is there not?

there isn't?

I wonder why that is.

Falwell, outside of all his defamatory, did a lot of good. I have no doubt that Wright did a lot of good for Chicago. If Obama simply honored Wright - that is one thing all together. But for him to take personal spiritual guidance for a man who preaches hate along side his better sermons - I have a real problem with that. For Obama to personally embrace that says a lot.

[Mr Sparkle]

Obama hates his mom :( he is bad for the US he would hand you over to Osama Bin Laden.

[Mr Sparkle]

Falwell, outside of all his defamatory, did a lot of good. I have no doubt that Wright did a lot of good for Chicago. If Obama simply honored Wright - that is one thing all together. But for him to take personal spiritual guidance for a man who preaches hate along side his better sermons - I have a real problem with that. For Obama to personally embrace that says a lot.

hahaha, yeah, being friends with a man that gives Hate Speeches is wrong.
simply saying that someone that gave hate speeches is some sort of national treasure, that's ok.

got it, no double standard for the black man. :up::o

[BlackLantern]

I'm not saying Obama can't do good for the US...but he won't do it as President.

[YsoSerious]

Because he is not ONLY his Pastor. He is his friend, his spiritual adviser, one of his greatest confidants.

And if your Pastor is preaching hate filled verses against his country, against whites, etc. and you don't leave - it says something about your character. Deciding to embrace a man with those hateful beliefs says even more.

I doubt that they have coffee together every day and discuss stuff.Billy Graham is Bill Clinton's spiritual advisor but I doubt Bill confides in him before he decides to do another intern. I think Obama joined the church because he wanted to be involved in the inner city community.I respect that more than if he decided to drive to Northbrook to attend Church.

[Kelly]

Falwell, outside of all his defamatory, did a lot of good. I have no doubt that Wright did a lot of good for Chicago. If Obama simply honored Wright - that is one thing all together. But for him to take personal spiritual guidance for a man who preaches hate along side his better sermons - I have a real problem with that. For Obama to personally embrace that says a lot.


Whoa......White has done an enormous amount of good for the youth of Chicago...........to say anything less is not the truth. I will not take away the good this man has done just because he allowed his anger to overtake his pulpit. His actions within his community, and the things he has done for the people there is WHAT THE CHURCH IS ALL ABOUT. Unfortunately his words from his pulpit are not.

[StorminNorman]

hahaha, yeah, being friends with a man that gives Hate Speeches is wrong.
simply saying that someone that gave hate speeches is some sort of national treasure, that's ok.

got it, no double standard for the black man. :up::o

I believe I went on to acknowledge that Wright did a lot of good in Chicago.

When you befriend a man who is filled with hate, hate against whites, hate against the country - you show a willingness to accept those beliefs. To simply honor a man, you honor the good he did. There is a difference there.

But nice try painting me as racist :up:

[StorminNorman]

Whoa......White has done an enormous amount of good for the youth of Chicago...........to say anything less is not the truth. I will not take away the good this man has done just because he allowed his anger to overtake his pulpit. His actions within his community, and the things he has done for the people there is WHAT THE CHURCH IS ALL ABOUT. Unfortunately his words from his pulpit are not.

I agree. That is why I acknowledged the good Wright did. If Obama simply praised Wright, for example, for the good he did in Chicago - that is one thing. But having such a close and personal relationship displays, to an agree, an acceptance of Wright's personal feelings as well.

[The Senator]

I doubt that they have coffee together every day and discuss stuff.Billy Graham is Bill Clinton's spiritual advisor but I doubt Bill confides in him before he decides to do another intern. I think Obama joined the church because he wanted to be involved in the inner city community.I respect that more than if he decided to drive to Northbrook to attend Church.

Personally, I would rather have him drive to some church in Northbrook than have him sit through hate speech for twenty years.

Besides, he's not running for mayor of Chicago. He's running for President. He serves to represent all Americans-- not just inner city Chicago.

[Tron5000]

I doubt that they have coffee together every day and discuss stuff.Billy Graham is Bill Clinton's spiritual advisor but I doubt Bill confides in him before he decides to do another intern. I think Obama joined the church because he wanted to be involved in the inner city community.I respect that more than if he decided to drive to Northbrook to attend Church.

Oh yeah, who wants to be put out by having to drive a bit further? "Well, that church is a ways away, so I guess we'll just stay here and listen to our pastor spew more vitriolic hate. If only the traffic wasn't so bad..."

[RockSP]

It's not about "something some other guy said." It's about being a 20-year member of a church where this type of racist and anti-American rhetoric was being preached on a regular basis. It's about having a close personal relationship with and considering as a trusted spiritual adviser a man who harbors such deep-seeded hatred for both America as a whole and for its white population. And it's about requiring an incredible suspension of disbelief to think that Obama did not lie when he said he never heard any of these statements by Jeremiah Wright either in private or during a church sermon.

Actually it is. It's about distraction. It's about people who don't want him to be president finding something to make him not get the nom. Like they tried with the "muslim" thing. Politics as usual.

[chaseter]

I know people that drive 45 miles to go to a church that they love. Wright preaches hate, racism, and antipatriotism. Obama knew him and sat in his pews for 20 years. This guy is no better than white racists in the Ozarks blaming everything on African Americans while they play with rattlesnakes. People take religion seriously. If they don't agree with the preacher/congregation, then they leave the church.

[Tron5000]

Actually it is. It's about distraction. It's about people who don't want him to be president finding something to make him not get the nom. Like they tried with the "muslim" thing. Politics as usual.

Well, luckily you're not "distracted" by the mean things people are saying about Obama's pastor. At least you see through the attacks. At least you realize it's just "politics as usual."



Oh, wait. You were serious? 'Cause I thought you were totally kidding with that statement.

Boy, do I feel embarrassed...

[Marx]

Actually it is. It's about distraction. It's about people who don't want him to be president finding something to make him not get the nom. Like they tried with the "muslim" thing. Politics as usual.

You're kidding right?

[Tron5000]

I wonder if Michelle Obama is "really proud to be an American" today. Probably not, what with all these "just downright mean" people picking on her husband and all...

[RockSP]

Well, luckily you're not "distracted" by the mean things people are saying about Obama's pastor. At least you see through the attacks. At least you realize it's just "politics as usual."

I couldn't care less what people are saying about the pastor. That's his cross to bear, not Obama's...at least it shouldn't be. But it is because you know...politics as usual.

[chaseter]

Actually it is. It's about distraction. It's about people who don't want him to be president finding something to make him not get the nom. Like they tried with the "muslim" thing. Politics as usual.
Maybe it is distraction but for Obama to outright say or deny he knew or sympathized with Wright's remarks while attending his church and being close friends with him for 20 years is a lie.

[Marx]

I couldn't care less what people are saying about the pastor. That's his cross to bear, not Obama's...at least it shouldn't be. But it is because you know...politics as usual.

It is Obama's cross to bear as well. Whether you want to admit it or not.

[RockSP]

Maybe it is distraction but for Obama to outright say or deny he knew or sympathized with Wright's remarks while attending his church and being close friends with him for 20 years is a lie.

Politicians lie.

"Read my lips. No new taxes."

"I didn't enhale."

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

"There are weapons of mass destruction over there."

[RockSP]

It is Obama's cross to bear as well. Whether you want to admit it or not.

There's nothing for me to admit. Like I said it is his cross to bear because of the nature of the political game.

[YsoSerious]

Sadley Obama's been having to ride the tightrope of race this entire campaign. It's a shame that this entire campaign that speaks of change is coming down to a smear campaign about race.Anyone who changes their vote based on Reverend Wright's viewpoints are rejecting the change that they claim they are ready for in American politics.We think we've come far in this country regarding race but we've just swept it under a rug.I know Obama's character and intent.I have friends who have different views on race than I but I'm not going to disown them because of them. In America they are entitled to believe what they will.If we allow the KKK to march and ralley in cities across America we have to allow people like Reverend Wright to speak also.Instead of getting so shocked over a hate filled speech ask yourself why so many people are gathered to listen to it.I'd also bet that many members of Reverend Wright's church cringed when they heard the sermon but don't feel like changing membership because of it.I'm convinced that if you investigate the leakage of this sermon it would come back to Hillary's camp.The only way she can win the nomination is to throw around crap.

[Tron5000]

There's nothing for me to admit. Like I said it is his cross to bear because of the nature of the political game.

You know, I'll bet if you say it enough times, it'll really come true! Like saying "Beetlejuice" 3 times to make him come out and play.

[chaseter]

Politicians lie.

"Read my lips. No new taxes."

"I didn't enhale."

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

"There are weapons of mass destruction over there."
So you want to vote for someone for president that lied about their relationship with a racist, anti-American, conspiracy theorist:huh: Obama was listened to this crap for 20 years, either he agrees with it or happened to miss every sermon or event or extracurricular activity that Wright spoke at...which is doubtful to say the least.:o

[RockSP]

You know, I'll bet if you say it enough times, it'll really come true! Like saying "Beetlejuice" 3 times to make him come out and play.

It's not like I'm trying to convince you or something. It's a message board. I can express my opinions just like you can.

(Insert personal favorite religious figure here) Bless America.

[Marx]

So you want to vote for someone for president that lied about their relationship with a racist, anti-American, conspiracy theorist:huh: Obama was listened to this crap for 20 years, either he agrees with it or happened to miss every sermon or event or extracurricular activity that Wright spoke at...which is doubtful to say the least.:o

You never know, it is possible Chase :whatever:

[chaseter]

Sadley Obama's been having to ride the tightrope of race this entire campaign. It's a shame that this entire campaign that speaks of change is coming down to a smear campaign about race.Anyone who changes their vote based on Reverend Wright's viewpoints are rejecting the change that they claim they are ready for in American politics.We think we've come far in this country regarding race but we've just swept it under a rug.I know Obama's character and intent.I have friends who have different views on race than I but I'm not going to disown them because of them. In America they are entitled to believe what they will.If we allow the KKK to march and ralley in cities across America we have to allow people like Reverend Wright to speak also.Instead of getting so shocked over a hate filled speech ask yourself why so many people are gathered to listen to it.I'd also bet that many members of Reverend Wright's church cringed when they heard the sermon but don't feel like changing membership because of it.I'm convinced that if you investigate the leakage of this sermon it would come back to Hillary's camp.The only way she can win the nomination is to throw around crap.
This campaign is about 'experience' as they both have made clear. Guess who has more? Glad I am voting Republican but it makes me laugh that so many people treat Obama as if he is Jesus and will save this country. Obama's camp has smeared Hillary so don't go there. Obama himself has even smeared her...they both have.

I lastly expect a candidate for presidency to be neutral on race. If Hillary attended a KKK church...Obama's camp would have a field day with it.

[RockSP]

So you want to vote for someone for president that lied about their relationship with a racist, anti-American, conspiracy theorist:huh: Obama was listened to this crap for 20 years, either he agrees with it or happened to miss every sermon or event or extracurricular activity that Wright spoke at...which is doubtful to say the least.:o

Never said I was (or wasn't) voting for him. Whoever the people vote for is a politician and is therefore in the business of lying.

[Marx]

This campaign is about 'experience' as they both have made clear. Guess who has more? Glad I am voting Republican but it makes me laugh that so many people treat Obama as if he is Jesus and will save this country. Obama's camp has smeared Hillary so don't go there. Obama himself has even smeared her...they both have.

Some things don't like to be admitted.

[Tron5000]

I know Obama's character and intent.

Really? My, you certainly are one of the fortunate ones if you've been able to spend so much time with him that you KNOW his character and intent. How ever did you manage to obtain an audience with such a prestigious man?

[YsoSerious]

Oh yeah, who wants to be put out by having to drive a bit further? "Well, that church is a ways away, so I guess we'll just stay here and listen to our pastor spew more vitriolic hate. If only the traffic wasn't so bad..."

Gas is almost $4 a gallon in Chicago. He's saving money and doing good for the environment by not driving 25 miles to a Northbrook church and listen to a pastor spew vitriolic hate over gay people instead.

[Marx]

Gas is almost $4 a gallon in Chicago. He's saving money and doing good for the environment by not driving 25 miles to a Northbrook church and listen to a pastor spew vitriolic hate over gay people instead.

This is really getting ridiculous. :huh:

[chaseter]

This is really getting ridiculous. :huh:
I sincerely hope that he is joking.

[The Senator]

Gas is almost $4 a gallon in Chicago. He's saving money and doing good for the environment by not driving 25 miles to a Northbrook church and listen to a pastor spew vitriolic hate over gay people instead.

Hahahahaha!

Yeah, Obama is really the environmentalist. Considering the amount of jet fuel he uses when he flies around the country to campaign.

Also, not all pastors are anti-gay jerks. Hell, he probably could have found a church in Chicago where the pastor wasn't a hate monger.

[YsoSerious]

Hahahahaha!
Yeah, Obama is really the environmentalist. Considering the amount of jet fuel he uses when he flies around the country to campaign.
Also, not all pastors are anti-gay jerks. Hell, he probably could have found a church in Chicago where the pastor wasn't a hate monger.

The great environmentalist Al Gore has burned alot of jet fuel too.Someone should tell these politicians they need to walk across the country to campaign.

[The Senator]

I'm convinced that if you investigate the leakage of this sermon it would come back to Hillary's camp.The only way she can win the nomination is to throw around crap.

And does that matter?

As a Clinton supporter, I can admit that some members of her campaign have 'leaked' some pretty scummy things, namely the photo of Obama dressed in Kenyan garb (which, in all technicality, was on public record before the Drudge Report released it). But this isn't scummy. This isn't scraping the bottom of the barrel. Voters should know that Obama isn't picture perfect, that he not only makes mistakes, but he lacks proper judgment. If he didn't realize that what Rev. Wright said would offend people, how can he be expected to know what's in the best interest of the country? He didn't know what was in the best interest of his campaign, that's for sure.

While were at it, though, Rev. Wright's comments weren't private. They were already floating on YouTube and had even been reported on as early as 2003 in the Chicago Tribune. The media just seemed to care this time.

[The Senator]

The great environmentalist Al Gore has burned alot of jet fuel too.Someone should tell these politicians they need to walk across the country to campaign.

You also forget that he used to drive a Chrysler 300, a gas guzzler, before the media took notice. Then he switched to a Ford Escape Hybrid to prove how environmental-friendly he has become.

Once again, if the media hadn't taken notice, I doubt he would have changed a thing. Looks like he has a history of this behavior.

[RockSP]

Voters should know that Obama isn't picture perfect, that he not only makes mistakes, but he lacks proper judgment.

Hopefully voters already know he is human...

[Memphis Slim]

Obama's Stand on Rev. Wright Clear


Tuesday, March 18, 2008 2:58 PM

By: Ronald Kessler

When we hire anyone for a job, we look at their record. Barack Obama’s record is now clear for all to see.
For two decades, Obama has been attending a church where paranoid hatred of America is preached on a regular basis. For two decades, the senator has counted as his minster, friend and adviser a man who says that America created the AIDS virus to kill blacks, puts blacks in prison rather than killing them off, and deserved to be attacked on 9/11 because of its racism.

In his eloquent speech in Philadelphia, Obama sought to distance himself from that record while retaining support from blacks who — as my friend Fox News commentator Juan Williams puts it — revel in looking at themselves as victims.

As in the past, Obama carefully parsed his words. Without specifically saying he heard these extremist comments, Obama acknowledged hearing comments by his longtime minister, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., that “could be considered controversial.”

“Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views?” Obama asked. “Absolutely — just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.”
In making that remark, Obama maligned the vast majority of clergymen who would never utter the kind of anti-American hatred that Wright spews forth on a regular basis.
At the same time, Obama implicitly defended Wright by saying his anger against America was understandable.

“For the men and women of Reverend Wright’s generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years,” Obama said. “That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends. But it does find voice in the barbershop or around the kitchen table.”
Obama went on to malign the many black churches that would never condone featuring such hatred in their services.

Occasionally, the anger “finds voice in the church on Sunday morning, in the pulpit and in the pews,” Obama said. “The fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger in some of Reverend Wright’s sermons simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in American life occurs on Sunday morning.”

Thus, while he condemned Wright’s statements at other points in his speech, Obama was condoning the mindset of victimhood.
As Williams, author of “Enough: The Phony Leaders, Dead-End Movements, and Culture of Failure That Are Undermining Black America,” has told Newsmax, that victim mindset “is so self-defeating in the black community and one that is played on by weak black leadership that chooses to have black people identified as victims rather than inspiring them as people who have overcome.”

Williams adds, “In posing as victims, they say the most prejudiced and vicious things, not only about whites but about America. They call it theology. In fact, it’s nothing but bigotry.”
Now Obama says he would not have belonged to the church if he had regularly heard Wright’s hate-filled statements. Yet when he announced for the presidency, Obama disinvited Wright from giving an invocation because his sermons can get “kind of rough.” Why did Obama not resign from the church then?

In December, Wright gave an award to Louis Farrakhan for lifetime achievement. Why did Obama not resign then? Instead, after Newsmax broke the story on Jan. 14, Obama dissembled about the issue, saying the award was for Farrakhan’s work with ex-offenders. Neither the presentation nor the article about it in the church magazine said anything about ex-offenders.

The truth is that Obama joined the church and adopted Wright as his friend and mentor because — beyond the good works that the church performs, as do most religious organizations — he feels an affinity for what Wright has to say. Michelle Obama’s comment that, for the first time in her adult life, she feels proud of America, highlights the fact that she has the victim mentality Wright promotes.

How could Michelle Obama, a graduate of Princeton and Harvard Law School who makes more than $1 million a year with her husband, say she is proud of America for the first time? The same way Wright can say, “God d*** America.”

Those who are gullible will accept Obama’s brilliant rhetoric as the compass to his thinking. They can try to convince themselves that a man who continues to belong to a church that describes itself on its Web site as “unashamedly black” will unify the country.
Whether hiring a president, an electrician, or a plumber, they ignore the candidate’s track record at their own peril.

[Kelly]

Hmmmm....I don't think respecting Rev. Wright is bad judgment on Obama's part.....but I am watching how Obama works his way through this......that will say alot to me about the man.

Looking at the comments from Wright closer......

I believe his "God Damn the US"

is from a sermon centered on this scripture...
2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

I do not like the wording he used, or how he used the US as his example....but I do believe that is what he is talking about. Pastor's all over the world have preached sermons very similar to this using this scripture, and many have used the US as their example. I am sure that if you took some of their statements out of the full sermon, they would not sound very positive either...

As far as his other statements........well the one containing Obama specifically....I have a feeling Obama was there, I have a feeling he heard the entire sermon.....and I do not think the comments were taken out of context.


I will say this, and this will end my thoughts on the issue....this is my opinion....


The media's repeating of these few lines, OVER AND OVER AND OVER again as isolated statements, are doing far more damage to race relations in this country, than ANYTHING the sermons said in their entirety....that saddens me far more than anything Rev. Wright has said....

[The Senator]

Hopefully voters already know he is human...

Well, many voters have made him into a demagogue and have put him on the highest horse in the country... so I think some people need to be reminded that he's just as shady as any other politician.

[Kelly]

Obama's Stand on Rev. Wright Clear


Tuesday, March 18, 2008 2:58 PM

By: Ronald Kessler

When we hire anyone for a job, we look at their record. Barack Obama’s record is now clear for all to see.
For two decades, Obama has been attending a church where paranoid hatred of America is preached on a regular basis. For two decades, the senator has counted as his minster, friend and adviser a man who says that America created the AIDS virus to kill blacks, puts blacks in prison rather than killing them off, and deserved to be attacked on 9/11 because of its racism.

In his eloquent speech in Philadelphia, Obama sought to distance himself from that record while retaining support from blacks who — as my friend Fox News commentator Juan Williams puts it — revel in looking at themselves as victims.

As in the past, Obama carefully parsed his words. Without specifically saying he heard these extremist comments, Obama acknowledged hearing comments by his longtime minister, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., that “could be considered controversial.”

“Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views?” Obama asked. “Absolutely — just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.”
In making that remark, Obama maligned the vast majority of clergymen who would never utter the kind of anti-American hatred that Wright spews forth on a regular basis.
At the same time, Obama implicitly defended Wright by saying his anger against America was understandable.

“For the men and women of Reverend Wright’s generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years,” Obama said. “That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends. But it does find voice in the barbershop or around the kitchen table.”
Obama went on to malign the many black churches that would never condone featuring such hatred in their services.

Occasionally, the anger “finds voice in the church on Sunday morning, in the pulpit and in the pews,” Obama said. “The fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger in some of Reverend Wright’s sermons simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in American life occurs on Sunday morning.”

Thus, while he condemned Wright’s statements at other points in his speech, Obama was condoning the mindset of victimhood.
As Williams, author of “Enough: The Phony Leaders, Dead-End Movements, and Culture of Failure That Are Undermining Black America,” has told Newsmax, that victim mindset “is so self-defeating in the black community and one that is played on by weak black leadership that chooses to have black people identified as victims rather than inspiring them as people who have overcome.”

Williams adds, “In posing as victims, they say the most prejudiced and vicious things, not only about whites but about America. They call it theology. In fact, it’s nothing but bigotry.”
Now Obama says he would not have belonged to the church if he had regularly heard Wright’s hate-filled statements. Yet when he announced for the presidency, Obama disinvited Wright from giving an invocation because his sermons can get “kind of rough.” Why did Obama not resign from the church then?

In December, Wright gave an award to Louis Farrakhan for lifetime achievement. Why did Obama not resign then? Instead, after Newsmax broke the story on Jan. 14, Obama dissembled about the issue, saying the award was for Farrakhan’s work with ex-offenders. Neither the presentation nor the article about it in the church magazine said anything about ex-offenders.

The truth is that Obama joined the church and adopted Wright as his friend and mentor because — beyond the good works that the church performs, as do most religious organizations — he feels an affinity for what Wright has to say. Michelle Obama’s comment that, for the first time in her adult life, she feels proud of America, highlights the fact that she has the victim mentality Wright promotes.

How could Michelle Obama, a graduate of Princeton and Harvard Law School who makes more than $1 million a year with her husband, say she is proud of America for the first time? The same way Wright can say, “God d*** America.”

Those who are gullible will accept Obama’s brilliant rhetoric as the compass to his thinking. They can try to convince themselves that a man who continues to belong to a church that describes itself on its Web site as “unashamedly black” will unify the country.
Whether hiring a president, an electrician, or a plumber, they ignore the candidate’s track record at their own peril.


Great article from a totally unbiased writer.....LMAO.

[Tron5000]

Great article from a totally unbiased writer.....LMAO.

That's it...attack the source, rather than the information.

[jaguarr]

Hmmmm....I don't think respecting Rev. Wright is bad judgment on Obama's part.....but I am watching how Obama works his way through this......that will say alot to me about the man.

Looking at the comments from Wright closer......

I believe his "God Damn the US"

is from a sermon centered on this scripture...
2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

I do not like the wording he used, or how he used the US as his example....but I do believe that is what he is talking about. Pastor's all over the world have preached sermons very similar to this using this scripture, and many have used the US as their example. I am sure that if you took some of their statements out of the full sermon, they would not sound very positive either...

As far as his other statements........well the one containing Obama specifically....I have a feeling Obama was there, I have a feeling he heard the entire sermon.....and I do not think the comments were taken out of context.


I will say this, and this will end my thoughts on the issue....this is my opinion....


The media's repeating of these few lines, OVER AND OVER AND OVER again as isolated statements, are doing far more damage to race relations in this country, than ANYTHING the sermons said in their entirety....that saddens me far more than anything Rev. Wright has said....

:heart:

jag

[Tron5000]

“Anger in some of Reverend Wright’s sermons simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in American life occurs on Sunday morning... but the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the races.”

So Obama would ask us to try to understand Jeremiah Wright's anger (read: hatred for America and the whites that live here), before condemning it. Interesting tactic...

[Kelly]

That's it...attack the source, rather than the information.


Of course be ignorant when reading and watching the media.....watch these things without knowing the underlying bias and motive.......take what they say as gospel.........YES BY ALL MEANS.......forge an opinion out of ignorance.....BY ALL MEANS. *insert sarcasm*

[Tron5000]

Of course be ignorant when reading and watching the media.....watch these things without knowing the underlying bias and motive.......take what they say as gospel.........YES BY ALL MEANS.......forge an opinion out of ignorance.....BY ALL MEANS. *insert sarcasm*

Look, everyone has a "bias and motive" when they write. I often read things by authors with whom I disagree ideologically and whom I know to have an ulterior motive. You definitely have to be wary of the sources that you expose yourself to. But sometimes you also have to see through that and focus on the information at issue.

[Excel]

WOW @ the speech

[Kelly]

Look, everyone has a "bias and motive" when they write. I often read things by authors with whom I disagree ideologically and whom I know to have an ulterior motive. You definitely have to be wary of the sources that you expose yourself to. But sometimes you also have to see through that and focus on the information at issue.


Exactly, and some far more than others.....so to blindly read an article without that knowledge.....is ignorant.

If he simply gave me "information" without the commentary on that "information" THEN, I would focus on the information.

See here is how I do it......I take SEVERAL commentaries, analyze the information, compare with my knowledge on the subject, then form an opinion.

When I see an article, posted by someone that is one of the most extremely biased people on this site, and he is quoting an article written by an EXTREMELY biased writer, who just 2 days ago reported false "information" on Barak Obama.......


sorry, but you will get the same reply from me.

[Tron5000]

Edit: Double Post.

[Tron5000]

the number is 600,000 dead iraqis since we have started the campaign, though i will concede not all of them were killed by our guns directly... and thats a valid point, but the only reason we have left for having gone in is to end the human rights violations and "supposedly" to stop terror :whatever:

with a record of 600,000 dead since we invaded... i don't see how we are going to do anything except embolden our enemy. many over there will see all that mess as directly our fault...

Seems someone is a bit misinformed.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

See that number? 82,440-89,751 Iraqi civilians dead since the beginning of the Iraq War. That sure seems to be a far cry from your number of 600,000.

[RockSP]

By: Ronald Kessler

“Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views?” Obama asked. “Absolutely — just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.”
In making that remark, Obama maligned the vast majority of clergymen who would never utter the kind of anti-American hatred that Wright spews forth on a regular basis.
At the same time, Obama implicitly defended Wright by saying his anger against America was understandable.

Nobody can be that stupid.

[The Senator]

Edit: Double Post.

That's documented civilian deaths. It is estimated that there are hundreds of thousands of civilians who were killed but were not accounted for.

[Tron5000]

Exactly, and some far more than others.....so to blindly read an article without that knowledge.....is ignorant.

If he simply gave me "information" without the commentary on that "information" THEN, I would focus on the information.

See here is how I do it......I take SEVERAL commentaries, analyze the information, compare with my knowledge on the subject, then form an opinion.

When I see an article, posted by someone that is one of the most extremely biased people on this site, and he is quoting an article written by an EXTREMELY biased writer, who just 2 days ago reported false "information" on Barak Obama.......


sorry, but you will get the same reply from me.

I'm with you on applying scrutiny to everything you read and see. Take nothing for face value because, as you said, it is being presented to you with a "bias and motive," no matter who the source is.

I just don't want people to discount something based specifically on the person whose fingers typed the words. That's all I'm getting at.

[The Senator]

WOW @ the speech

Yeah, he's pretty good at not answering voters' concerns.

[RockSP]

Yeah, he's pretty good at not answering voters' concerns.

It wasn't a question and answer session.

[Tron5000]

That's documented civilian deaths. It is estimated that there are hundreds of thousands of civilians who were killed but were not accounted for.

That would be well over 300 Iraqi civilian deaths due to violence every day since the war started. I find this figure seeeeeeriously difficult to believe.

[Excel]

Yeah, he's pretty good at not answering voters' concerns.

of, its a concern; its the only thing being talked about. people wont just ignore it.

[The Senator]

It wasn't a question and answer session.

Yeah, I know, it was another "let's listen to Obama's soothing words as he tap-dances around the issues" session.

[Excel]

dont worry, when Hillary gives a speech on sexism im sure itll get the same amount of praise and press :rolleyes: