Discussion: Reverend Wright And The Fallout

[RockSP]

Yeah, I know, it was another "let's listen to Obama's soothing words as he tap-dances around the issues" session.

The issue at hand...the Wright uproar...was addressed. That was the point of giving the speech wasn't it?

Well, many voters have made him into a demagogue and have put him on the highest horse in the country... so I think some people need to be reminded that he's just as shady as any other politician.

On that we can agree.

[The Senator]

That would be well over 300 Iraqi civilian deaths due to violence every day since the war started. I find this figure seeeeeeriously difficult to believe.

These civilian deaths aren't entirely the result of soldiers going around shooting Iraqis for no good reason. Some became infected with disease after drinking contaminated water, since the U.S. still has yet to restore safe drinking water to the region. Some have been unable to receive proper medical care because the U.S. has halted the transportation of medicine and medical supplies into the country, not to mention the electrical outages across the country caused by the U.S. Some have been living on the streets because they've had their homes eradicated, exposing themselves to disease and violence. So while soldiers may have killed 89,000 civilians, the invasion has caused the death rate to skyrocket and has contributed to over 665,000 deaths as of 2006.

I haven't seen a recent article on the subject, but this one is two years old and describes what's been going on over there.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

[The Senator]

The issue at hand...the Wright uproar...was addressed. That was the point of giving the speech wasn't it?


He didn't convince voters that he was against what Wright said. I can't speak for everyone, but as a Democrat who has considered voting for him this fall, I feel like he didn't answer what everyone who hasn't been wearing his name on their sleeves: Why did he stay under Wright's wing for twenty years while he said such vile, hateful things?

[The Senator]

dont worry, when Hillary gives a speech on sexism im sure itll get the same amount of praise and press :rolleyes:

Well, that probably won't happen because she doesn't have surrogates who go around saying "kill all men!" or "9/11 was justified because man held the woman down for centuries!" And if she does, I'm sure she's gotten rid of them by now.

But hey, at least she's not using this for political advantage, like Obama did with Ferraro's comments last week.

[SuBe]

Great article from a totally unbiased writer.....LMAO.
Ummm... That's the point, it's not a NEWS Article, it's a Commentary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Kessler

[Excel]

Well, that probably won't happen because she doesn't have surrogates who go around saying "kill all men!" or "9/11 was justified because man held the woman down for centuries!" And if she does, I'm sure she's gotten rid of them by now.

But hey, at least she's not using this for political advantage, like Obama did with Ferraro's comments last week.

Except Obama himself said he didnt think she meant it to be racist :huh:

[The Senator]

Except Obama himself said he didnt think she meant it to be racist :huh:

Correct. But that didn't stop him from using them for his own advantage. Hillary hasn't said anything on the matter at all, except for "this is the senator's concern."

[Tron5000]

These civilian deaths aren't entirely the result of soldiers going around shooting Iraqis for no good reason. Some became infected with disease after drinking contaminated water, since the U.S. still has yet to restore safe drinking water to the region. Some have been unable to receive proper medical care because the U.S. has halted the transportation of medicine and medical supplies into the country, not to mention the electrical outages across the country caused by the U.S. Some have been living on the streets because they've had their homes eradicated, exposing themselves to disease and violence. So while soldiers may have killed 89,000 civilians, the invasion has caused the death rate to skyrocket and has contributed to over 665,000 deaths as of 2006.

I haven't seen a recent article on the subject, but this one is two years old and describes what's been going on over there.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

Yes, but that estimate (and the methods used to arrive at that number) have been strongly criticized. I don't doubt that there are people dying because of the war (and not killed by troops), but I can't imagine that that number would be over 300 a day. From the same source (Washington Post):


http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2006/10/600000_iraqis_killed_by_war_cr.html

There are two numbers that need to be considered in coming to a conclusion about the Hopkins' study: The raw number of deaths, and the comparison to pre-war deaths, that is, what would have been expected were there not an invasion in 2003.

In the ways of sampling sizes, standard errors, reliability and validity, the John Hopkins team claims being 95 percent certain that their 600,000 number is right. The true number -- the margin of error -- ranges from 400,000 to 900,000 deaths overall.

"To put these numbers in context," one of the study's authors says, "deaths are occurring in Iraq now at a rate more than three times that from before the invasion of March 2003."

The Hopkins team calculated Iraq's mortality rate in the year before the invasion at 5.5 deaths per 1,000 people, comparing it with their post-invasion average of 13.3 deaths per 1,000 people a year. The difference between these two rates is the rate of "excess deaths;" the deaths occurring from violence is how they get to the 600,000 number.

The entire "context" then, hinges on the validity of the pre-war mortality rate. If you accept this number, then I'm told you accept that pre-war Iraq had a better mortality rate than any other country in the Middle East, even Israel.

[RockSP]

Correct. But that didn't stop him from using them for his own advantage.

How'd he use it to his advantage? By answering people who questioned him about it?

[Tron5000]

Well, that probably won't happen because she doesn't have surrogates who go around saying "kill all men!" or "9/11 was justified because man held the woman down for centuries!" And if she does, I'm sure she's gotten rid of them by now.

But hey, at least she's not using this for political advantage, like Obama did with Ferraro's comments last week.

She doesn't need to. Sean Hannity broadcast an hour-long interview with McCain on "Hannity's America" Sunday night. Hannity, more than once, tried to get McCain to condemn Obama and/or his pastor. McCain wouldn't take the bait, saying only that he knows Obama personally and thinks he is a good man.

Neither one of them are touching this. Don't have to. The damage is done, and now they'll just sit back and watch Obama squirm. With smiles on their faces, to be sure, but dude is screwed, and they know it.

[Kelly]

Ummm... That's the point, it's not a NEWS Article, it's a Commentary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Kessler


I know, I read quite a bit on Newsmax.com, not much on wiki though, don't really like it as a source.....never said it wasn't a commentary....IN FACT if you had read my second post on the subject you would see that I called it just that...."a commentary"....

[Excel]

Correct. But that didn't stop him from using them for his own advantage. Hillary hasn't said anything on the matter at all, except for "this is the senator's concern."

Why would she say anything?? Obama doesnt talk about people who say sexist crap bout her :huh:

[Memphis Slim]

Great article from a totally unbiased writer.....LMAO.


But of couse, any writer who praises Obama's speech is unbiased?? :yay:

[Memphis Slim]

The hardcore Obama fans never leave. It's the fence sitters that have been swayed away from him.

[The Senator]

Why would she say anything?? Obama doesnt talk about people who say sexist crap bout her :huh:

Let me rephrase that: Hillary hasn't said anything about the Wright matter, unlike Obama, who jumped on Ferraro's words the day they were uttered.

Besides, she had every reason to say something about this, considering Rev. Wright mentioned her explicitly in his bat****-crazy rants.

[jaguarr]

The hardcore Obama fans never leave. It's the fence sitters that have been swayed away from him.

You can't even say that as a blanket statement. This whole thing was a topic of discussion around the water cooler earlier today at work. There were a number of people who have not decided between Obama and Hillary (but definitely won't vote for McCain) that said that they didn't really care about all this and were more interested in hearing more about the issues from each candidate. They viewed this thing as unimportant noise, just like they did the Ferraro thing.

jag

[Tron5000]

From "Dreams From My Fathers":

"It contradicted the morality my mother had taught me, a morality of subtle distinctions–between individuals of goodwill and those who wished me ill, between active malice and ignorance or indifference. I had a personal stake in that moral framework; I’d discovered that I couldn’t escape it if I tried. And yet perhaps it was a framework that blacks in this country could no longer afford; perhaps it weakened black resolve, encouraged confusion within the ranks. Desperate times called for desperate measures, and for many blacks, times were chronically desperate. If nationalism could create a strong and effective insularity, deliver on its promise of self-respect, then the hurt it might cause well-meaning whites, or the inner turmoil it caused people like me, would be of little consequence."

[Excel]

Let me rephrase that: Hillary hasn't said anything about the Wright matter, unlike Obama, who jumped on Ferraro's words the day they were uttered.

Besides, she had every reason to say something about this, considering Rev. Wright mentioned her explicitly in his bat****-crazy rants.

He did?

[The Senator]

How'd he use it to his advantage? By answering people who questioned him about it?

He drew attention to it, didn't he? He discussed it openly, didn't he? His reasoning behind it was pure and simple: He wanted her remarks to be noticed. And what better way to keep them noticed than to address them?

Hillary, meanwhile, hasn't said anything about Wright's comments-- even the comments against her--which is a smarter tactic to use, if you ask me.

[RockSP]

Let me rephrase that: Hillary hasn't said anything about the Wright matter, unlike Obama, who jumped on Ferraro's words the day they were uttered.

Besides, she had every reason to say something about this, considering Rev. Wright mentioned her explicitly in his bat****-crazy rants.

Then of course Obama had a right to talk about the Ferraro stuff, since it was about him.

[The Senator]

He did?

Yes.

During one of his sermons (!), he said "Hillary ain't ever been called a [n-word]," then said that she never faced any hardships in her life like poor Senator Obama did.

Classy. :whatever:

[BlackLantern]

i agree with Spice...Obama isn't special, he just Snake Oil Salesmen 2.0 with added Change.....

[Tron5000]

He did?

Oh, yes. And more than once.


"Hillary is married to Bill and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t. Bill did us just like he did Monica Lewinsky..." (pantomiming a sexual act) "...He was riding dirty."

"Hillary ain’t had to work twice as hard just to get accepted by the rich white folk who run everything, or to get a passing grade when you know you are smarter than their C-students sitting in the White House. Hillary ain’t never had her own people say she wasn’t white enough!"

"Hillary was not a black boy raised in a single parent home! Barack was. Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people! Hillary can never know that! Hillary ain’t never been called a n*****! Hillary has never had her people defined as nonpersons!"

[RockSP]

He drew attention to it, didn't he? He discussed it openly, didn't he? His reasoning behind it was pure and simple: He wanted her remarks to be noticed. And what better way to keep them noticed than to address them?

yeah the nonstop media coverage had nothing to do with her remarks being "noticed" :dry:

[The Senator]

yeah the nonstop media coverage had nothing to do with her remarks being "noticed" :dry:

Yeah... and half the media coverage was 'Obama addresses Ferraro.' I guess 'Obama' and 'media love fest' go hand in hand.

[crd1682]

He drew attention to it, didn't he? He discussed it openly, didn't he? His reasoning behind it was pure and simple: He wanted her remarks to be noticed. And what better way to keep them noticed than to address them?

Hillary, meanwhile, hasn't said anything about Wright's comments-- even the comments against her--which is a smarter tactic to use, if you ask me.

Of course she hasn't, because nobody cares about what she has to say anymore. I mean seriously, why is she still even in the race? Even people at CNN are starting to ask the question of what a Clinton win would do to harm the Democratic Party. Even if she did reference the Wright controversy, nobody would care. I sure wouldn't.

[Excel]

Oh, yes. And more than once.


"Hillary is married to Bill and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t. Bill did us just like he did Monica Lewinsky..." (pantomiming a sexual act) "...He was riding dirty."

"Hillary ain’t had to work twice as hard just to get accepted by the rich white folk who run everything, or to get a passing grade when you know you are smarter than their C-students sitting in the White House. Hillary ain’t never had her own people say she wasn’t white enough!"

Haha, wow, that guys is trash

[The Senator]

Of course she hasn't, because nobody cares about what she has to say anymore. I mean seriously, why is she still even in the race? Even people at CNN are starting to ask the question of what a Clinton win would do to harm the Democratic Party. Even if she did reference the Wright controversy, nobody would care. I sure wouldn't.

I certainly care.

Not only is she leading in the Pennsylvania and North Carolina primary contests, but she's doing better than Obama is against John McCain. So any idea that Hillary is dividing the Democratic Party or fares worse than Obama would in the general election is dangerously uninformed.

Also, because of Rev. Wright's bat**** rants, I bet some of those super delegates who were thinking about switching their support from Hillary to Obama are re-thinking that. So Hillary's argument that this will come down to the super delegates might be true after all.

[The Senator]

Haha, wow, that guys is trash

Yeah, it's hiiii-larious.

And part of the reason why I and others may vote for McCain in the fall.

[Marx]

Of course she hasn't, because nobody cares about what she has to say anymore. I mean seriously, why is she still even in the race? Even people at CNN are starting to ask the question of what a Clinton win would do to harm the Democratic Party. Even if she did reference the Wright controversy, nobody would care. I sure wouldn't.

The media outlets are hardly an objective viewpoint when it comes to this primary campaign. I would suggest that you keep a more open mind when listening to, or reading anything in the media regarding this race.

[Tron5000]

Screencap from mybarackobama.com:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f206/harrelson2131/obama_wright.jpg

[Excel]

Yeah, it's hiiii-larious.

And part of the reason why I and others may vote for McCain in the fall.

Its funny because so its ridiculously outrageous and stupid. However, McCain? Now you just being stubburn, Obama is Hillary 2.0 same she is Obama 2.0 in terms of policy; dont let the bickering get to you. Even I have admitted I'd vote Hillary over McSame.

[The Senator]

Its funny because so its ridiculously outrageous and stupid. However, McCain? Now you just being stubburn, Obama is Hillary 2.0 same she is Obama 2.0 in terms of policy; dont let the bickering get to you. Even I have admitted I'd vote Hillary over McSame.

We'll see what happens between now and November. But I really don't want to support a candidate who fails to address voters' concerns. I already did that with Kerry.

[RockSP]

Its funny because so its ridiculously outrageous and stupid.

Outrageous, yeah but stupid? Nah.

[The Senator]

Outrageous, yeah but stupid? Nah.

Yeah, it is stupid. Actually, it's uncalled for.

Sure, Hillary 'ain't never been called a [n-word],' but she's been called other things. Whore. *****. ****. ****.

She still faced hurdles as a woman in the sixties. She was self-made and ridiculed for it. Christ, people in Arkansas didn't re-elect Bill Clinton in the early 1980s because she refused to adopt Bill's last name. Once she did that, though, they jumped right on board... just as long as that woman no longer refused to submit herself to her husband.

Hillary came from the same class as Obama. She started out with little money and had to earn her way through life. Yeah, she went to an all-girls school as an undergrad, so she had an advantage there. But she also went to Yale Law School, which is one of the hardest law schools to get into in this country.

Any idea that Hillary Clinton hasn't faced any hurdles in her life is utter bull. Sexism existed full-throttle back then. I'm sorry you guys seem to think sexism is hilarious, and that you think any cries of sexism from her camp deserve to be laughed at and ridiculed. If anyone started to laugh at Obama because someone acted racist towards him, that person would be condemned by you and the rest of society. It's quite annoying.

[terry78]

Outrageous, yeah but stupid? Nah.

I agree, he's spouting off, but I'm not going to sit and say I've never thought the same thing and be a hypocrite.

[RockSP]

Any idea that Hillary Clinton hasn't faced any hurdles in her life is utter bull. Sexism existed full-throttle back then. I'm sorry you guys seem to think sexism is hilarious, and that you think any cries of sexism from her camp deserve to be laughed at and ridiculed. If anyone started to laugh at Obama because someone acted racist towards him, that person would be condemned by you and the rest of society. It's quite annoying.

:huh: Not sure where you pulling all of that from. Definitely can't be directed at me since I never said crap about Hillary, her hurdles, or sexism.

Like I said before what Wright said may have been outrageous but everything he said wasn't stupid. For example:

"Hillary is married to Bill and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t. Bill did us just like he did Monica Lewinsky..." (pantomiming a sexual act) "...He was riding dirty."

Many black people have some strange, irrational love for Bill Clinton (and thus for Hillary)...calling him "the first black president" and all that nonsense. Those people need to be challenged to really do a little research into Clinton's administration and how it affected blacks.

"Hillary ain’t never had her own people say she wasn’t white enough!"

Doesn't really need any explanation, hopefully.

[crd1682]

I certainly care.

Not only is she leading in the Pennsylvania and North Carolina primary contests, but she's doing better than Obama is against John McCain. So any idea that Hillary is dividing the Democratic Party or fares worse than Obama would in the general election is dangerously uninformed.

Also, because of Rev. Wright's bat**** rants, I bet some of those super delegates who were thinking about switching their support from Hillary to Obama are re-thinking that. So Hillary's argument that this will come down to the super delegates might be true after all.

Dude, we've known that it was going to come down to the superdelegates for what, two months now? Please tell me you're not just figuring this out.

I'd be weary about leads in primaries. Clinton won both Ohio and Texas and has nothing to show for it. Plus Obama won more delegates in Texas anyway because of the caucus.

I saw that poll you mentioned about McCain. She's ahead of him by what? 2%? That's pretty funny considering that she'd been behind him nearly the whole campaign season.

[crd1682]

The media outlets are hardly an objective viewpoint when it comes to this primary campaign. I would suggest that you keep a more open mind when listening to, or reading anything in the media regarding this race.

I am keeping an open mind. And because I keep an open mind and think about the larger picture, I agree with people who say that a prolonged battle could possibly harm the Democratic Party.

At the same time, however, the Dems are getting much more media time than McCain and the Republicans.

[Excel]

I love the "Out of many, we are truly one" quote

Its stupid to say, I didnt say it was wrong the same way Ferarros comment was stupid to say but not really wrong.

[chaseter]

Obama's speech was horrible today.

[The Senator]

Dude, we've known that it was going to come down to the superdelegates for what, two months now? Please tell me you're not just figuring this out.

Except that the argument Obama supporters and the media have been using is that he won't need superdelegates if he wins the rest of the primaries with 60-70% of the vote. That hasn't happened, and may be hard to achieve in the future, therefore making the super delegates all the more relevant again.

Also, Obama apparently had 50 super delegates which were suppose to come out and support him. I don't think that's happened yet...


I'd be weary about leads in primaries. Clinton won both Ohio and Texas and has nothing to show for it. Plus Obama won more delegates in Texas anyway because of the caucus.

I wouldn't take notice of the polls, except for this interesting fact: In every state since Super Tuesday, Hillary's lead shrunk before the primary. In Pennsylvania and North Carolina, however, her lead is growing. And it isn't growing by one or two points. In Pennsylvania alone, it doubled practically over night. Tell me that isn't significant...


I saw that poll you mentioned about McCain. She's ahead of him by what? 2%? That's pretty funny considering that she'd been behind him nearly the whole campaign season.

That's interesting, because Obama supporters kept touting how he would crush McCain in the general election, even though he led by the exact same margin Hillary is currently leading by. Now that the tables are reversed, are you going to say Obama still has a shot at sweeping this thing and Hillary will crash and burn and divide the party? You certainly won't say that Obama is going to crash and burn and divide the party-- even though he's been consistently falling behind McCain in every poll since last week.

[The Senator]

:huh: Not sure where you pulling all of that from. Definitely can't be directed at me since I never said crap about Hillary, her hurdles, or sexism.

It was directed to everyone on this forum who seems to think that it's okay to call Hillary Clinton a ***** and lampoon the idea of sexism altogether.


Many black people have some strange, irrational love for Bill Clinton (and thus for Hillary)...calling him "the first black president" and all that nonsense. Those people need to be challenged to really do a little research into Clinton's administration and how it affected blacks.

But seriously, he could have said his statements with a little more tact. The content of this man's rants aren't the only thing that's shocking. It's the crude, vicious way he said those things. 'Hillary ain't never been called a [n-word]!' or mocking fellatio goes beyond the professionalism I would expect in a pastor.

[rdh007]

Not only is she leading in the Pennsylvania and North Carolina primary contests, but she's doing better than Obama is against John McCain. So any idea that Hillary is dividing the Democratic Party or fares worse than Obama would in the general election is dangerously uninformed.


Isn't it also dangerously uninformed to say that she's doing better than him when they're doing the same against McCain?


Poll Finds McCain Tied With Democrats
CNN
Posted: 2008-03-18 10:57:19
Filed Under: Elections News
(March 18) -- Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton would both statistically tie Republican John McCain in a general election matchup, a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll indicates.
http://news.aol.com/elections/story/_a/poll-finds-mccain-tied-with-democrats/20080318071709990001

[The Senator]

Isn't it also dangerously uninformed to say that she's doing better than him when they're doing the same against McCain?


Poll Finds McCain Tied With Democrats
CNN
Posted: 2008-03-18 10:57:19
Filed Under: Elections News
(March 18) -- Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton would both statistically tie Republican John McCain in a general election matchup, a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll indicates.
http://news.aol.com/elections/story/_a/poll-finds-mccain-tied-with-democrats/20080318071709990001

Depends which polls you look at.

A poll issued today by USA Today/ Gallup has Hillary up five points against McCain, while Obama leads by two.

Additionally, Hillary has general election leads in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Arkansas, while Obama only has a lead in Iowa. Granted, Hillary loses Iowa, and Kerry lost the state last time, but he needs to keep Pennsylvania and at least win Ohio (if not a few other states instead) to retain any hope of winning in November.

[Memphis Slim]

Or Should He Have Held A Press Conference And Answered The Tough Questions? i KNOW WE HAVE ANOTHER THREAD.


But we don't have one with a poll.

[The Senator]

Also, I didn't say it was a guarantee she would win in November. I said it was dangerously uninformed to think that Hillary is a goner and that she's divisive and there's no way she can win against McCain-- which seems to be one of the many arguments as to why Obama should be the nominee.

[The Chairman]

I didn't hear it.

[ShadowBoxing]

It's a great speech. I guess I was convinced, but then I don't really see how he should be held accountable for the stuff his preacher says. When was Bush called to task for the stupid stuff his preachers say? His preacher isn't up for election, he is.

[terry78]

If we all followed what our ministers said to the letter, we'd all be ****ed. You're supposed to follow it metaphorically, genius. I would consider you quite the pathetic soul if your view of Obama is on what his preacher is yammering about.

[ShadowBoxing]

zrp-v2tHaDo

[Kelly]

I think the speech was fine as far as I'm concerned....not sure that his analogy with his mother's grandmother was appropriate for the issue at hand......


As for the press and those that were on the fence about him.....no I don't think the speech was enough for them...

[Arc-Light]

If we all followed what our ministers said to the letter, we'd all be ****ed. You're supposed to follow it metaphorically, genius. I would consider you quite the pathetic soul if your view of Obama is on what his preacher is yammering about.

Ditto.............

[The Senator]

I don't think his speech did enough to disassociate himself from Wright. It helped affirm his support among his supporters; I don't think it did enough to convince the voters who were personally offended by Rev. Wright's comments.

[Asgard]

The speech was beatiful.

Obama spoke truthfully and from the heart. Im glad he didnt disown his pastor because of his remarks. I would have lost a lot of respect for Obama had he done that. Instead, he acknowledges the faults of the man, yet embraces him as his friend and SPIRITUAL advisor for 20 years. That speaks volumes of the character of Obama and I applaud him for it. I didnt need any convincing though, since I dont believe for a second that Obama believes in any of the hateful words spoken by the Rev.

The guy is amazing and he has a very firm understanding on race relations in the country today.

Very interesting tidbit:

Obama wrote the speech on his own.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/03/speechwriter_of_one.php

[Kelly]

I don't think his speech did enough to disassociate himself from Wright. It helped affirm his support among his supporters; I don't think it did enough to convince the voters who were personally offended by Rev. Wright's comments.


He doesn't want to disassociate himself from Wright, why should he. He's a friend, that he has had for 20 years. Just because he has made some comments like this, and although I'm not real thrilled about some of the comments, THEY ARE very prevalent in black churches across America....so for him to have to say "he's no longer a friend".....its ridiculous in my opinion.

[The Senator]

If we all followed what our ministers said to the letter, we'd all be ****ed. You're supposed to follow it metaphorically, genius. I would consider you quite the pathetic soul if your view of Obama is on what his preacher is yammering about.

Then he should have gone to another church. It isn't that hard. If he was personally offended by what Wright said, he wouldn't have put up with it for twenty years. And if he was offended by him, he wouldn't have hired him as an adviser for his campaign. I guess I wouldn't have cared all that much if he just attended the church. But the fact that he gave the man a job on his campaign, and still refers to him as a member of his family after this scandal, calls into question his judgment.

[Zen]

Jman... you might vote for McCain?

i can understand how the recent events may turn you from obama... but McCain is not without his own misteps...

namely repeating that al-Qaeda is going to Iran for training and then coming into Iraq... that this was common knowledge, 3 times. then being corected by joe lieberman on camera that this was untrue.

Is this guy good at anything? i mean... national security is supposed to be his thing isnt it? what are john McCains strengths that would make you vote for him? Is it only reaching across the Aisle?

[The Senator]

I doesn't want to disassociate himself from Wright, why should he. He's a friend, that he has had for 20 years. Just because he has made some comments like this, and although I'm not real thrilled about some of the comments, THEY ARE very prevalent in black churches across America....so for him to have to say "he's no longer a friend".....its ridiculous in my opinion.

He doesn't have to say "he's no longer a friend." But he shouldn't have said I still consider him a member of my family and insinuate that Wright's claims were accurate. Hell, even leaving the racial comments aside, his comments that 9/11 was justified transcends race and should offend everyone.

He should have known how much of a disaster this man would be for his campaign, and he never should have brought him on board his campaign in the first place.

[The Chairman]

zrp-v2tHaDo

It just about convinced me.

[The Chairman]

One thing people keep mentioning is why Obama put up with this for 20 years. From what I've read, the majority of his comments were fairly recent.

[The Senator]

Jman... you might vote for McCain?

I said I may vote for him, specifically if incidents like these repeat themselves in the future. Under no circumstances is it appropriate to hire someone who was on record five years ago for saying that 9/11 was justified, and who thinks its fine and dandy to compare the white community to the KKK.


i can understand how the recent events may turn you from obama... but McCain is not without his own misteps...

namely repeating that al-Qaeda is going to Iran for training and then coming into Iraq... that this was common knowledge, 3 times. then being corected by joe lieberman on camera that this was untrue.

Is this guy good at anything? i mean... national security is supposed to be his thing isnt it? what are john McCains strengths that would make you vote for him? Is it only reaching across the Aisle?

If I do vote for McCain-- and it's a pretty big, Obama has to screw up worse than this 'if'-- it would be on the basis that I feel a far more qualified candidate is waiting in the wings. Like Mark Warner, or Russ Feingold if you want a true liberal in office. I will be a New York resident in the fall anyway... so it's not like my vote will matter in the least bit if I voted for McCain, Obama, or Tony Blair.

[Zen]

I said I may vote for him, specifically if incidents like these repeat themselves in the future. Under no circumstances is it appropriate to hire someone who was on record five years ago for saying that 9/11 was justified, and who thinks its fine and dandy to compare the white community to the KKK.



If I do vote for McCain-- and it's a pretty big, Obama has to screw up worse than this 'if'-- it would be on the basis that I feel a far more qualified candidate is waiting in the wings. Like Mark Warner, or Russ Feingold if you want a true liberal in office. I will be a New York resident in the fall anyway... so it's not like my vote will matter in the least bit if I voted for McCain, Obama, or Tony Blair.

everyone is about Mark Warner... i gotta check him out. when would he concieveably run?

[The Senator]

One thing people keep mentioning is why Obama put up with this for 20 years. From what I've read, the majority of his comments were fairly recent.

The comments you're seeing on tape are pretty recent.

He first started his 9/11 spiel in 2003, where it was reported on in the Chicago Tribune.

And people have gone on record to say that this man has been saying these things for well over a decade. So even if he hasn't been saying these things from the get-go, there was still a pretty big window for Obama to have heard some of these offensive things.

[The Senator]

everyone is about Mark Warner... i gotta check him out. when would he concieveably run?

He was suppose to run in 2008, but he decided against it in late 2006. Chances are, he will run in 2012 if the Dems lose this time.

[The Chairman]

The comments you're seeing on tape are pretty recent.

He first started his 9/11 spiel in 2003, where it was reported on in the Chicago Tribune.

And people have gone on record to say that this man has been saying these things for well over a decade. So even if he hasn't been saying these things from the get-go, there was still a pretty big window for Obama to have heard some of these offensive things.

This is true.

That being said, Obama may have his reasons.

I know this is a terrible analogy, but I hate my principal. She's a power hungry, egomaniacal, fascist who doesn't let kids express themselves, has driven kids to near-insanity, curses at both teachers and staff, and has a history of students' rights violations and reported abuses (and she teaches Special Ed - go figure), yet I choose to stay there because I have great friends and teachers who feel the same way I do, am getting a decent education, and also feel an emotional obligation to it because it did help me get over a heck of a lot of previously damaging issues when I first attended.

Obama may feel this way about leaving his church.

[The Senator]

This is true.

That being said, Obama may have his reasons.

I know this is a terrible analogy, but I hate my principal. She's a power hungry, egomaniacal, fascist who doesn't let kids express themselves and their issues and also has a history of students' rights violations and reported abuses (and she teaches Special Ed - go figure), yet I choose to stay there because I have great friends and teachers who feel the same way I do, am getting a decent education, and also feel an emotional obligation to it because it did help me get over a heck of a lot of previously damaging issues when I first attended.

Obama may feel this way about leaving his church.

Well, you have very little rights as a student. The Supreme Court has ruled that.

Next, a church isn't a school. You're required by law to receive a formal education, and you have to pull some strings-- most likely with your parents and your prospective school-- to transfer.

All Obama has to do is get up and walk out. That doesn't mean he can't retain the same relationships with the people he met. It simply means he's following his faith elsewhere.

When I left the Catholic Church, I kept in contact with many of the people who stayed. Same thing happened when I went to a Methodist and Congregationalist church. He would have been backing away from the reverend, not the people or the community.

[The Chairman]

Well, you have very little rights as a student. The Supreme Court has ruled that.

Next, a church isn't a school. You're required by law to receive a formal education, and you have to pull some strings-- most likely with your parents and your prospective school-- to transfer.

All Obama has to do is get up and walk out. That doesn't mean he can't retain the same relationships with the people he met. It simply means he's following his faith elsewhere.

When I left the Catholic Church, I kept in contact with many of the people who stayed. Same thing happened when I went to a Methodist and Congregationalist church. He would have been backing away from the reverend, not the people or the community.

True.

But like me with my school, Obama felt bad about leaving the church for so long because he felt indebted to them for starting his relationship with God and Christ? It's possible. I'll admit I'm grasping at straws.

Well, you have very little rights as a student. The Supreme Court has ruled that.

Something I'd certainly love to change.

[The Senator]

True.

But like me with my school, Obama felt bad about leaving the church for so long because he felt indebted to them for starting his relationship with God and Christ? It's possible. I'll admit I'm grasping at straws.

Then let's look beyond that.

Should he have hired Wright as an adviser to his campaign, when he knew that controversy essentially follows him wherever he goes?

And on top of that, should he have originally brushed off Wright as "that crazy old uncle?"

He hasn't handled this the way he should. It transcends personal relationships. People won't see this is an obligation between friends. Voters who care about the issues, who want to look beyond race, and those who consider 9/11 the darkest day in our history will not be so kind to him.



Something I'd certainly loved to change.

I don't think that's a wise idea.

Giving students rights is about as intelligent as locking a serial killer in a room with a knife and a teenage girl.

If you let kids say whatever they want, then some of them will go around calling teachers and other students gay or some other 'hip' slang term. It's a distraction. And while some kids are kind and smart enough to know where the line should be drawn, it's that vocal minority which you have to thank for these laws. That vocal minority shouldn't be allowed to speak their minds in school, so I'm all in favor of keeping their mouths shut.

[Tron5000]

Hell to the naw, it wasn't good enough. Dude threw HIS GRANDMOTHER under the bus. Speaking of her in the same terms as his "pastor," comparing the 2...man, screw this poll. I wonder how SHE felt about the speech.

[Marx]

I am keeping an open mind. And because I keep an open mind and think about the larger picture, I agree with people who say that a prolonged battle could possibly harm the Democratic Party.

At the same time, however, the Dems are getting much more media time than McCain and the Republicans.

I'm glad that you're keeping an open mind. I'm just saying that I don't think it is wise for anyone to take what the media says and run with it. (I'm not saying that you are, I am also speaking to the larger picture.)

[Tron5000]

I am keeping an open mind. And because I keep an open mind and think about the larger picture, I agree with people who say that a prolonged battle could possibly harm the Democratic Party.

At the same time, however, the Dems are getting much more media time than McCain and the Republicans.

I've heard the sayings, "Any press is good press" and "No press is bad press."

I think neither of these reflects the current state of the Democrat Party. I think they would much rather not be in the media for the reasons that they currently are.

[Lightning Strykez!]

He doesn't have to say "he's no longer a friend." But he shouldn't have said I still consider him a member of my family

So....everyone in your family is a saint? And you'd disown them if they said something stupid? I'm sorry, but you and some others here hold these human presidential candidates to some godly standards of perfection. What gives?

In response to the question, I've only caught snippets of the speech online today, as I've been busy running around. What I heard sounded fine, but honestly? This entire process has become dragged with so much meh-ness that I'm starting to lose interestin all three of these people. My attention to this thing really started to wane after Super Tuesday. They are like crabs in a barrel at this point and I doubt that any of them are thinking about any of US anymore...just themselves.

So in the words of Greenday: "Wake me up when September Ends".

:dry:

[terry78]

Any tidbit to derail the Obama Midnight Train will be in full force for the rest of the year. If this causes him to lose the bid, this will be just like some fictional political satire come to life. It's that stupid.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Any tidbit to derail the Obama Midnight Train will be in full force for the rest of the year. If this causes him to lose the bid, this will be just like some fictional political satire come to life. It's that stupid.

Agreed.

And I hope Hillary is not somewhere in a dark corner cackling with glee about his stumble. Because she's hurt herself just as badly--if not worse. This entire mess has stirred up divisions all over again between blacks and whites and she will suffer as a result with the Democratic Black vote.

Hello President McCain. :pal:

[Tron5000]

Any tidbit to derail the Obama Midnight Train will be in full force for the rest of the year. If this causes him to lose the bid, this will be just like some fictional political satire come to life. It's that stupid.

I respectfully think many people would disagree with your description of this issue as a "tidbit."

[The Senator]

So....everyone in your family is a saint? And you'd disown them if they said something stupid?

In response to the question, I've only caught snippets of the speech online today, as I've been busy running around. What I heard sounded fine, but honestly? This entire process has become dragged with so much meh-ness that I'm starting to lose interestin all three of these people. My attention to this thing really started to wane after Super Tuesday. Now it's like, "Wake me up when it's over".

:dry:

This isn't about disowning anybody.

This is about separating what's private from what's public, and leading the public to believe that you and your crazy pastor aren't sitting up late at night drafting a plot to overthrow white America. He shouldn't have said that he considers Wright a member of his family in a speech which was broadcast nationwide and is receiving considerable airplay everywhere. It's called covering your ass. He didn't cover his ass adequately enough. Instead of leaving it at "I disagree with Rev. Wright's comments," he said he considers him a close friend and a member of his family. Isn't that the opposite of what voters want him to say?

Politics is about catering to your audience. No one ever gets elected for saying the truth 100% of the time. Ask Walter Mondale what the country thought when he said he said he'd raise their taxes. Obama has to learn how to play the game, and while he's been playing it pretty good so far, he isn't playing it well enough with this.

[Excel]

Jman I have friends that are racists against white people 1 i would call as close as family, doesnt mean I am a racist.

[Excel]

This isn't about disowning anybody.

This is about separating what's private from what's public, and leading the public to believe that you and your crazy pastor aren't sitting up late at night drafting a plot to overthrow white America. He shouldn't have said that he considers Wright a member of his family in a speech which was broadcast nationwide and is receiving considerable airplay everywhere. It's called covering your ass. He didn't cover his ass adequately enough. Instead of leaving it at "I disagree with Rev. Wright's comments," he said he considers him a close friend and a member of his family. Isn't that the opposite of what voters want him to say?

Politics is about catering to your audience. No one ever gets elected for saying the truth 100% of the time. Ask Walter Mondale what the country thought when he said he said he'd raise their taxes. Obama has to learn how to play the game, and while he's been playing it pretty good so far, he isn't playing it well enough with this.

:dry:

A year ago, what were the odds he'd still be campaigning at this point? 50-1? What were the odds he would be WINNING/FAVORED for the nomination? 100-1?

Oh, I would say he is defiently paying the game pretty well. Your "Obama can do no right" attitude is a reflection of the kinda crap he is trying to get people not to do.

Than again, whats even more pathetic is your now critisizing him for being HONEST. He doesnt condem the and ADMITS their friends, which is the best Hillary could hope for-to have Obama associated with this guy-and he ADMITTS it, and yet you complain?

So you are saying you support dishonesty.

Cool.

[The Senator]

:dry:

A year ago, what were the odds he'd still be campaigning at this point? 50-1? What were the odds he would be WINNING/FAVORED for the nomination? 100-1?

Oh, I would say he is defiently paying the game pretty well. Your "Obama can do no right" attitude is a reflection of the kinda crap he is trying to get people not to do.

I never said Obama can do no right. That's a gross misinterpretation of how I feel about the man. He's done some good things in his tenure, and he's run a pretty good campaign. He might even make a good president.

But this is a case where Obama screwed up, and he keeps screwing himself over because of it. If he wants to paint himself as a candidate who can do no wrong, whatever. But when he does something like this, it calls into question his judgment.

You guys are looking at Wright's comments as if they aren't a disgusting travesty. You're saying 'well, I have plenty of friends who say similar things' and acting like Obama is on the same level as they are.

But that isn't my argument.

My argument is that he lacked the judgment necessary when he decided to bring Wright on to his campaign staff in the first place. An experienced politician would know that people will look to uncover dirt wherever possible. You can't tell me that he didn't know the kind of crap which Wright spews on a regular basis, and you certainly can't tell me that he thought everyone would sweep it under the rug. Because if that's the case, not only does he lack judgment. He lacks a connection with reality.

I don't want to lose this election to the swift boat style tactics we saw in 2004. Now that Wright has said these things, all it takes is a 527 to go around running ads in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Missouri, and Michigan featuring Wright's comments to scare the crap out of those fence-sitting white voters who were thinking about voting for Obama. I can't believe you don't see how serious this is and will be if he becomes the nominee.

[Excel]

He lacks a connection with reality

So did Abe Lincoln, Martin Luthor King, Jfk back in their day, right?

[The Senator]

Than again, whats even more pathetic is your now critisizing him for being HONEST. He doesnt condem the and ADMITS their friends, which is the best Hillary could hope for-to have Obama associated with this guy-and he ADMITTS it, and yet you complain?

So you are saying you support dishonesty.

Cool.

Politics is about winning. You have to lie sometimes to win. You have to be a skilled liar to do so. We don't elect politicians because they tell the truth all the time. Otherwise, no one would ever get elected.

We can forgive Obama for his past drug use because everyone has that in their history. That's fine.

But there are voters who won't forgive him for associating himself with a racist pastor who thinks America deserved to be attacked on 9/11.

So, in this case, he should have lied. And actually, he wouldn't be lying if he didn't say Wright was a close friend. He wouldn't have told the full story; but he wouldn't have given voters a reason to vote against him.

[Tron5000]

I never said Obama can do no right. That's a gross misinterpretation of how I feel about the man. He's done some good things in his tenure, and he's run a pretty good campaign. He might even make a good president.

But this is a case where Obama screwed up, and he keeps screwing himself over because of it. If he wants to paint himself as a candidate who can do no wrong, whatever. But when he does something like this, it calls into question his judgment.

You guys are looking at Wright's comments as if they aren't a disgusting travesty. You're saying 'well, I have plenty of friends who say similar things' and acting like Obama is on the same level as they are.

But that isn't my argument.

My argument is that he lacked the judgment necessary when he decided to bring Wright on to his campaign staff in the first place. An experienced politician would know that people will look to uncover dirt wherever possible. You can't tell me that he didn't know the kind of crap which Wright spews on a regular basis, and you certainly can't tell me that he thought everyone would sweep it under the rug. Because if that's the case, not only does he lack judgment. He lacks a connection with reality.

I don't want to lose this election to the swift boat style tactics we saw in 2004. Now that Wright has said these things, all it takes is a 527 to go around running ads in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Missouri, and Michigan featuring Wright's comments to scare the crap out of those fence-sitting white voters who were thinking about voting for Obama. I can't believe you don't see how serious this is and will be if he becomes the nominee.

Well said, sir.

He certainly knew that Wright was a liability when he revoked his invitation for Wright to deliver the invocation at Obama's Presidential campaign announcement ceremony. He told Wright, "Your sermons can get kind of rough."

He knew these things about Wright. He knew that Wright's views were unacceptable to most Americans. Yet not only did he choose not to distance himself from the man and his church, he made the absurd decision to appoint Wright to a position with his campaign. Regardless of what your views are about the man's ideologies, this shows a ridiculous lack of judgment (or sanity).

[The Senator]

So did Abe Lincoln, Martin Luthor King, Jfk back in their day, right?

We're not talking about Lincoln and MLK, are we?

We're talking about Barack Obama.

Just because he can give a good speech, that doesn't put him on equal footing with MLK or Lincoln.

Just because he has a short resume and is from Illinois, that doesn't mean he's like Abraham Lincoln.

Back on topic, please.

[Excel]

Uh, what the hell did you Martin Luthor King or Abe Lincoln were doing before they got into a position of power? Making speeches to get themselves support. You underestimate the power of rallying people around him sooooo mu ch

[Lightning Strykez!]

So...Tron and Jman:

You'd have this man disown his friend of 20 years because he's running for President?

Seriously. :rolleyes:

Look, what the preacher said was insulting and insensitive--there is no argument there. But if Obama had done what you two are suggesting, the media (or some Judas Iscariot within his circle) would "out" him later if it was found out that they were still friends "under the table" (see the NAFTA incident a couple of weeks back). Obama is being honest--he apologized and put the man's statements into perspective for everyone in the country.

Which--when you think about it--in itself is rather curious, since Obama never said these words himself. :o

[Excel]

Exactly; Obamas not putting himself in a situation to get further cricized.

[The Senator]

Agreed.

And I hope Hillary is not somewhere in a dark corner cackling with glee about his stumble. Because she's hurt herself just as badly--if not worse. This entire mess has stirred up divisions all over again between blacks and whites and she will suffer as a result with the Democratic Black vote.

Hello President McCain. :pal:

I want to know something:

If it's perfectly fine if the black community refuses to vote for Hillary Clinton because Obama's campaign distorted some of her and Bill's statements...

Then is it fine the white community refused to vote for Obama because Rev. Wright referred to us as the US of KKK-A, among other hurtful statements?

Because I don't see how Hillary and her campaign is solely responsible for a racial divide here.

[Lightning Strykez!]

So, in this case, he should have lied.

Riiiiiight...that's the perfect way to show voters that you're trying to bring about an honest, forthright presidency. :dry:

The man has released his tax records.

He's admitted to drug use.

He's been unbelievably forthcoming about his Rezko dealings.

And now he's trying to explain his personal relationship with his pastor.

Basically, Obama is an open book right now. The Republicans have less and less ammo against him because he's revealing everything in a proactive way. Hillary cannot claim this--she is accustomed to lying to get her way to the top. If that's the kind of person you want as your president, have at it. But don't speak to me about Obama's lack of "judgement" or personal "character".

Because he's showing a LOT of character by taking all these risks for haters like yourselves. Chew on that.

[The Senator]

So...Tron and Jman:

You'd have this man disown his friend of 20 years because he's running for President?

Seriously. :rolleyes:

READ MY POST.

This is not about DISOWNING anybody.

It's about craftily ignoring his relationship with Wright and not referring to him as a member of his family to further ignite the flames. Because he decided to refer to Wright as a member of his family, rather than leaving that relationship out of his speech altogether, many voters will feel that he agrees with Wright regardless of what he said.

Some voters are stupid, stupid people. You have to take them by the hand and treat them like children. Don't say anything which will piss them off, or else you've got a widespread temper tantrum on a massive scale. That's what's going on now, and Obama isn't soothing their temper the way I would have if I was in his place.

[Tron5000]

So...Tron and Jman:

You'd have this man disown his friend of 20 years because he's running for President?

Seriously. :rolleyes:

Look, what the preacher said was insulting and insensitive--there is no argument there. But if Obama had done what you two are suggesting, the media (or some Judas Iscariot within his circle) would "out" him later if it was found out that they were still friends "under the table" (see the NAFTA incident a couple of weeks back). Obama is being honest--he apologized and put the man's statements into perspective for everyone in the country.

Which--when you think about it--in itself is rather curious, since Obama never said these words himself. :o

No. It should never reach that boiling point. He shouldn't have to disown him; he should have a) left the church when he first became aware of the beliefs in his pastor's heart or b) never have joined the church in the first place if he was aware of the beliefs of Jeremiah Wright.

[Mr Sparkle]

I believe I went on to acknowledge that Wright did a lot of good in Chicago.

When you befriend a man who is filled with hate, hate against whites, hate against the country - you show a willingness to accept those beliefs. To simply honor a man, you honor the good he did. There is a difference there.

But nice try painting me as racist :up:

no, you're making a distinction where there's none to be made.
if he spoke " hate speech" he is still a bigot, regardless if he is a good dancer or not. honoring him is not an option.
I'm sure one of the grand wizards of the Klan ( since you guys love to compare) was a totally awesome grandfather, so?

still a bigot, if you " honor " him, it's tacit agreement with his stances.

as to whether you are a racist or not?

I can't say.

the judgment calls you have made in this thread have cast rather an ominous cloud upon your person.

you know what's weird though?
you pretty much admitted to using the situation with Obama, though him being a racist is pretty far fetched.
but you seem to not appreciate it being done to you,

I just found that funny. and I want you to know I did it on purpose, it seems you missed it.

I don't really think you're racist by the way, I would've thought you knew better.:cwink:

[The Senator]

He's showing a LOT of it by taking all these risks for haters like yourselves.

Yeah, I'm a hater because I disagree with the way he's handling this scandal. :whatever:

[Excel]

Your saying truth is bad...

Obama reminding me of Eminem at the end of 8 Mile

[Lightning Strykez!]

Because I don't see how Hillary and her campaign is solely responsible for a racial divide here.

Jman...

If you actually have to ask me that question then I see no value in debating with you tonight. No one said anything about "soley". And we've been over this.

I'm tired and not in the mood. :o

[The Senator]

Jman...

If you actually have to ask me that question then I see no value in debating with you tonight. No one said anything about "soley". And we've been over this.

I'm tired and not in the mood. :o

I only asked because, the way I read it, it seemed like you were implying that African Americans won't vote for Hillary if Obama isn't the nominee.

I apologize for misconstruing your words.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Yeah, I'm a hater because I disagree with the way he's handling this scandal. :whatever:

It's far more than that.

You are criticizing a man for being HONEST about his life with his voters. So yes, right now you are wearing the "hater" label, because in all truthfulness, it should be JEREMIAH WRIGHT giving a speech explaining his personal issues, not one of his parishoners.

Take a step back and look at how you sound. Seriously.



READ MY POST.

This is not about DISOWNING anybody.

It's about craftily ignoring his relationship with Wright and not referring to him as a member of his family to further ignite the flames.

I read your post. Now, reread it yourself (including my bolded additions) and see if you can find the oxymoron yourself. :cool:

And I find it contraditory to the whole "New Politics" message that Obama is trying to establish here. Remember, "Crafty" is a synonym for "Deceitful". Why would he try to be anything remotely like that during this shaky time during his run? Do you know how many people are watching his every move, hoping he'll give them a bone to exploit?

[Tron5000]

Dick Morris just made an excellent statement (which I feel is very applicable to Obama's inability to distance himself from Jeremiah Wright):

"A president who isn't ruthless and willing to cut his best friend off at the knees isn't fit to be president."

[Mr Sparkle]

Dick Morris just made an excellent statement (which I feel is very applicable to Obama's inability to distance himself from Jeremiah Wright):

"A president who isn't ruthless and willing to cut his best friend off at the knees isn't fit to be president."

so far, no President has done that.
odd huh?
I mean, comments are all well and good, reality is another matter altogether.

[Tron5000]

Obama said that since Jeremiah Wright is retiring anyway, he doesn't want to "kick him while he's down."

Priceless.

[Tron5000]

so far, no President has done that.
odd huh?
I mean, comments are all well and good, reality is another matter altogether.

You know the point he was trying to make. In times of crisis, the leader of this country must do whatever is necessary to secure victory. Obama has proven himself unable to do that.

[Lightning Strykez!]

No. It should never reach that boiling point. He shouldn't have to disown him; he should have a) left the church when he first became aware of the beliefs in his pastor's heart or b) never have joined the church in the first place if he was aware of the beliefs of Jeremiah Wright.


Well, that's how you would've handled it. But you're not Barack Obama. Totally different set of circumstances.


Politics is about winning. You have to lie sometimes to win. You have to be a skilled liar to do so. We don't elect politicians because they tell the truth all the time. Otherwise, no one would ever get elected.

If Barack had thrown his minister under the bus he would have PISSED OFF his African American supporters. He decided to take the risk and be honest with EVERYONE involved. Sue him. :dry:

See, it's rather tricky when you're half black and half-white--as I well know. You cannot please everyone, and it's amusing to me to hear you guys spout off what you think he should have done when you haven't faced the same circumstances he has--especially as a biracial man in a racially polarized campaign process.

[Tron5000]

Well, that's how you would've handled it. But you're not Barack Obama. Totally different set of circumstances.

It's not about how I would handle it. It's about how any sane, rational American would handle it. And if this guy doesn't fall in that category, I certainly don't want him making decisions that affect every citizen of this great nation.

[The Senator]

It's far more than that.

You are criticizing a man for being HONEST about his life with his voters. So yes, right now you are wearing the "hater" label, because in all truthfulness, it should be JEREMIAH WRIGHT giving a speech explaining his personal issues, not one of his parishoners.

Take a step back and look at how you sound. Seriously.

And I apologize for being adamantly against the way he's handled this. Read below to find out why.




I read your post.

And I find it contraditory to the whole "New Politics" message that Obama is trying to establish here. "Crafty" is a synonym for "Deciet". Reread it yourself (including my bolded additions) and see if you can find the oxymoron yourself.

Unfortunately, there are some things the general public isn't willing to accept yet. They don't want a truthful candidate; they want to hear what they want to hear. They don't want a man who doesn't put his hand over his heart during the pledge (yeah, I know it was the national anthem, where you're not required to put your hand over your heart at all-- but that's not the story which sticks in voters' minds). They don't want a man who everyone labels a Muslim going around dressing in their clothing. They don't want a man who refers to a pastor who condemns all of white America as a member of his family.

They want a message of hope and change, yes. And if Obama becomes the nominee-- which is incredibly likely at this point-- he will be put under the same scrutiny as past Presidential candidates. You and I know that he is being honest, and we see no personal fault in what he's said. His speech was well-done. But it wasn't enough to convince the swing voters. Those voters decide elections. They live in states like OH, PA, FL, MO and MI. They are blue-collar employees, typically religious and very proud of their country. They don't want to come across a story which pegs one candidate as a closet Muslim who supports a pastor who thinks white America should burn in Hell and that 9/11 was justified because white America screwed the rest of the world.

So many people who vote are unintelligent to say the least. They won't spend six hours researching Obama's past or reading one of his books. They will spend fifteen minutes watching the nightly news or listening to talk radio, where they will get the bulk of their information. The last thing you or I need as Democrats who want to win in the fall is to see his life distorted in the public eye. We don't want to see him fall because these issues-- as petty as they are-- derailed him.

He doesn't have to lie about everything. But he really, really should have considered lying or misleading the public on this. The unfortunate reality is, society will judge him because of false perceptions. And he only caters to those false perceptions by not lying in this case.

I've studied this long enough to know what kind of **** is being thrown around. I work in a political environment.

Take a look at George Allen, for example. I don't think Allen was a closet racist or anything of the sort. I think his comments were retarded and uncalled for last year, but the media painted him as a racist. And he lost his re-election bid because everyone thought he was a racist. This could happen to any politician, and the Republicans are praying for Obama to screw up insignificantly so they can turn it into something bigger than it should be.

[Mr Sparkle]

You know the point he was trying to make. In times of crisis, the leader of this country must do whatever is necessary to secure victory. Obama has proven himself unable to do that.

no, because this wasn't a crisis.
:cwink:

[Tron5000]

no, because this wasn't a crisis.
:cwink:

I respectfully disagree, as I am sure many in the Obama camp and the Democrat Party (including superdelegates; man, have they got it rough right now) are flippin' out right now. I'd hate to be in some of those round-tables.

[Lightning Strykez!]

You know the point he was trying to make. In times of crisis, the leader of this country must do whatever is necessary to secure victory. Obama has proven himself unable to do that.

No offense but...Dick's being a dick. That was a stupid statement if there ever was one. This Reverend is not exactly Osama Bin Laden or some bomb-toting Terrorist.

And this is hardly a national "crisis." :rolleyes:

And before the mods come down on me, be clear: I am not calling YOU stupid, but I am denouncing, rejecting and distancing your statement as such.

[The Senator]

If Barack had thrown his minister under the bus he would have PISSED OFF his African American supporters. He decided to take the risk and be honest with EVERYONE involved. Sue him. :dry:

See, it's rather tricky when you're half black and half-white--as I well know. You cannot please everyone, and it's amusing to me to hear you guys spout off what you think he should have done when you haven't faced the same circumstances he has--especially as a biracial man in a racially polarized campaign process.

Obama didn't have to throw his minister under the bus. He didn't have to say "You, Jeremiah Wright, are a bigot and I want nothing to do with you." He didn't have to say that at all. But he could have kept the line out of his speech where he said he respected the man and considered him a part of his family. That's the line which is getting the most attention right now. His speech as a whole is being touted as marvelous, but his detractors are using that one line to derail him. I never watch Bill O'Reilly, but because I lost track of what I was doing, I saw his show tonight and O'Reilly alone trashed him for the line. It even resurfaced on The Daily Show this evening.

It's a case of saying what everyone wants to hear, versus saying something which will offend people who don't want to hear it. The latter prevailed, unfortunately, and he will be scrutinized further because of this.

[Mr Sparkle]

I respectfully disagree, as I am sure many in the Obama camp and the Democrat Party (including superdelegates; man, have they got it rough right now) are flippin' out right now. I'd hate to be in some of those round-tables.

well, you're entitled to that, but you would have to agree, that to deem this is crisis is to give it merit.
I think it deserves none, because this has nothing to do with his character.
first they said this made him anti-american.
it didn't, then, they said it made Obama racist.
it doesn't.
so, now, they are saying that this shows that he can't handle a crisis.
he can't win for losing, Ron Paul was photographed with members of Stormfront.
and while all the support those cats gave him disturbed me, I never held it against him.
this is just a way to try and stop a man that was dead to rights in the race.
why?
draw your own conclusions.

[Tron5000]

No offense but...Dick's being a dick. That was a stupid statement if there ever was one. This Reverend is not exactly Osama Bin Laden or some ****te Terrorist.

And this is hardly a national "crisis." :rolleyes:

And before the mods come down on me, be clear: I am not calling YOU stupid, but I am denouncing, rejecting and distancing your statement as such.

First: what the hell does Osama bin Laden have to do with anything regarding Obama?

Second: This is not "a national crisis," but it is a crisis for the Obama campaign. There is a parallel between the two. If he has shown such poor judgment in handling a crisis on the campaign level, how can we possibly trust that he will react in the correct manner when a crisis arises that affects all those that live in this wonderful country?

[Tron5000]

well, you're entitled to that, but you would have to agree, that to deem this is crisis is to give it merit.
I think it deserves none, because this has nothing to do with his character.
first they said this made him anti-american.
it didn't, then, they said it made Obama racist.
it doesn't.
so, now, they are saying that this shows that he can't handle a crisis.
he can't win for losing, Ron Paul was photographed with members of Stormfront.
and while all the support those cats gave him disturbed me, I never held it against him.
this is just a way to try and stop a man that was dead to rights in the race.
why?
draw your own conclusions.

I do consider this a crisis for his campaign. The poll numbers, the fact that he was compelled to make today's speech, the round-the-clock media coverage and the fact that you and I are discussing it confirm that.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Points well taken Jman. We'll have to see how it all plays out.

[Arc-Light]

First: what the hell does Osama bin Laden have to do with anything regarding Obama?

Second: This is not "a national crisis," but it is a crisis for the Obama campaign. There is a parallel between the two. If he has shown such poor judgment in handling a crisis on the campaign level, how can we possibly trust that he will react in the correct manner when a crisis arises that affects all those that live in this wonderful country?

Some of you are making a mountain out of a ant hill..........

[Tron5000]

Some of you are making a mountain out of a ant hill..........

Then so is every major media outlet in the world. Damn, it would've been nice to have been in exclusive company, but the damn MSM had to crowd things out.

[Mr Sparkle]

I do consider this a crisis for his campaign. The poll numbers, the fact that he was compelled to make today's speech, the round-the-clock media coverage and the fact that you and I are discussing it confirm that.

no, it confirms that people are easily led.
from the start, I said this has no merit, the ferraro thing has no merit and I didn't care when Bush gave falwell a " day of mourning"
we are discussing this because people are easily manipulated into caring about things that are immaterial. completely.
the fact that he gave a speech should sadden you, because this means that your politicians expect nothing from you, nothing, they deem you as idiotic as children, and you just nod along and agree.

[Mr Sparkle]

Then so is every major media outlet in the world. Damn, it would've been nice to have been in exclusive company, but the damn MSM had to crowd things out.

don't get angry, but why is the " mainstream media" so dependable all of a sudden?:huh:

[Lightning Strykez!]

this is just a way to try and stop a man that was dead to rights in the race.
why?
draw your own conclusions.


Thank you. I'm glad someone on this board has the balls to admit what the agenda here is all about. That's why I find this whole tirade stupid now. If he was behind in delegates and the popular vote this would not be happening. So now, very determined people are trying to change that.

It's simple.


First: what the hell does Osama bin Laden have to do with anything regarding Obama?

Second: This is not "a national crisis," but it is a crisis for the Obama campaign. There is a parallel between the two. If he has shown such poor judgment in handling a crisis on the campaign level, how can we possibly trust that he will react in the correct manner when a crisis arises that affects all those that live in this wonderful country?

Osama Bin Laden represents a REAL national crisis that deserves to be "cut off at his knees." This retired, bitter old man Wright? Hardly. I class him alongside Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton--loud-mouthed bigots who are nothing more than attention whores.

They. Have. Nothing. To. Do. With. Barack Obama.

[The Senator]

Dick Morris just made an excellent statement (which I feel is very applicable to Obama's inability to distance himself from Jeremiah Wright):

"A president who isn't ruthless and willing to cut his best friend off at the knees isn't fit to be president."

Hmm. None of our presidents seem to match that description...

[Tron5000]

don't get angry, but why is the " mainstream media" so dependable all of a sudden?:huh:

It never is. But the statement to which I was referring was that we were "making a mountain out of a mole hill." My response was simply to illustrate that it is not as though merely a few of this are blowing this out of proportion; it is obviously a big deal since it is receiving coverage and air play 24 hours a day.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Some of you are making a mountain out of a ant hill..........

Tell me about it. I rate all of this on the same level of gossip tabloidish crap...garbage that distracts from the bigger issues at hand--the REAL national crises i.e.:

*Rising Gas Prices

*Crashing Banks/Economy

*The War

* And 1 million other problems tearing this world apart

I don't give a damn about Wright or his comments. They're not impacting MY future.

[Tron5000]

Thank you. I'm glad someone on this board has the balls to admit what the agenda here is all about. That's why I find this whole tirade stupid now. If he was behind in delegates and the popular vote this would not be happening. So now, very determined people are trying to change that.

It's simple.




Osama Bin Laden represents a REAL national crisis that deserves to be "cut off at his knees." This retired, bitter old man Wright? Hardly. I class him alongside Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton--loud-mouthed bigots who are nothing more than attention whores.

They. Have. Nothing. To. Do. With. Barack Obama.

No, THEY don't. But Jeremiah Wright has a lot to do with Obama. A whole lot.

[Mr Sparkle]

Hmm. None of our presidents seem to match that description...

and really, that's not the kind of person that you want as president.
if your friend happens to be a terrorist? sure, a madman? a cartoon villain?
sure.

none of that is applicable here.:o

:liz:<--- I just wanted to use that.

[MaskedManJRK]

Politics is about winning. You have to lie sometimes to win. You have to be a skilled liar to do so. We don't elect politicians because they tell the truth all the time. Otherwise, no one would ever get elected.

Which is a shame since the ones that lie seem to be f**king up the country. Really, it's sort of a slow suicide of America.

My question to you is this: Since you mention that this idea is essentially wrong and ignorant...shouldn't something be done about it? Shouldn't we change the system instead of begrudgingly accepting it?

[Mr Sparkle]

It never is. But the statement to which I was referring was that we were "making a mountain out of a mole hill." My response was simply to illustrate that it is not as though merely a few of this are blowing this out of proportion; it is obviously a big deal since it is receiving coverage and air play 24 hours a day.

I don't think that coverage for banality is ever important.
I can't remember the last time I cared about Britney or Paris and they are pretty widely covered.

and they have about as much merit as this story.
Just my opinion, this has nothing to do with the issues.
this has nothing to do with a possible election.

[Lightning Strykez!]

No, THEY don't. But Jeremiah Wright has a lot to do with Obama. A whole lot.


:cmad:

No. He doesn't.

If and when Barack Obama names Jeremiah Wright as his choice for Veeper, let me know.

Until then, Jeremiah Wright is just another one of the hundreds--if not literally THOUSANDS of people that Barack Obama is friends/acquaintances with.

[Tron5000]

Tell me about it. I rate all of this on the same level of gossip tabloidish crap...garbage that distracts from the bigger issues at hand--the REAL national crises i.e.:

*Rising Gas Prices

*Crashing Banks/Economy

*The War

* And 1 million other problems tearing this world apart

I don't give a damn about Wright or his comments. They're not impacting MY future.

Sorry, but I am a man who takes faith very seriously. One's connection with God is usually one's guiding light in times of triumph and tragedy. And if this man, Barack Obama, is truly the man he says he is, a man who is close to God, and his view of God has been shaped by the beliefs of Jeremiah Wright, I have a very, very serious problem with his ability to lead this country.

I can deal with gas prices. The free market can fix the economy. We can end the war with the stroke of a pen. But we absolutely can not have as the leader of this country a man whose decisions may be influenced by the racist, anti-American teachings of a mentor, pastor and close friend of 20 years.

[The Senator]

Tell me about it. I rate all of this on the same level of gossip tabloidish crap...garbage that distracts from the bigger issues at hand--the REAL national crises i.e.:

*Rising Gas Prices

*Crashing Banks/Economy

*The War

* And 1 million other problems tearing this world apart

I don't give a damn about Wright or his comments. They're not impacting MY future.

LS... when you put it that way, you make a very valid point.

I still disagree with how Obama handled this scandal.

But, seriously, every time something like this comes out, whether it's Ferraro or Wright, the media spends several days going bonkers over something as petty as this when we have billions of other concerns.

The problem with Bear Stearns the other day shows us how fragile our economy has become.

We're approaching the fifth anniversary of a war which was grossly mismanaged from the start and should either be taken in a different direction or ended altogether.

It's costing my family $40 to fill up their gas tanks, twice a week, while prices for food and other necessities are skyrocketing.

The Euro is double the worth of the American dollar.

We have legitimate concerns which ought to be addressed. Obama may have handled this situation poorly. But he and the other candidates need to start focusing on the issues pretty soon. Otherwise, I'm scared as to where this nation will be in eight months, if the best we can do is bicker over this.

[Tron5000]

I don't think that coverage for banality is ever important.
I can't remember the last time I cared about Britney or Paris and they are pretty widely covered.

and they have about as much merit as this story.
Just my opinion, this has nothing to do with the issues.
this has nothing to do with a possible election.

I can't remember the last time Britney or Paris ran for President.

[Tron5000]

:cmad:

No. He doesn't.

If and when Barack Obama names Jeremiah Wright as his choice for Veeper, let me know.

Until then, Jeremiah Wright is just another one of the hundreds--if not literally THOUSANDS of people that Barack Obama is friends/acquaintances with.

Jeremiah Wright is more than simply a friend/acquaintance of Obama. He is the man who led him to God; his pastor of 20 years; his trusted spiritual adviser; his mentor; the man to whom he dedicated his last book, which happened to be named after and taken from a Wright sermon; his close friend; and an adviser in Obama's presidential campaign, until last week,

Don't try to act like their relationship is akin to Danny down the street borrowing your leafblower.

[Mr Sparkle]

I can't remember the last time Britney or Paris ran for President.

I can't remember when Wright said he was either:huh:

[Tron5000]

I can't remember when Wright said he was either:huh:

Hey, if Paris or Britney were running for president and belonged to a church similar to TUCC, I would expect their pastors to undergo the same scrutiny.

[Lightning Strykez!]

LS... when you put it that way, you make a very valid point.

I still disagree with how Obama handled this scandal.

But, seriously, every time something like this comes out, whether it's Ferraro or Wright, the media spends several days going bonkers over something as petty as this when we have billions of other concerns.

The problem with Bear Stearns the other day shows us how fragile our economy has become.

We're approaching the fifth anniversary of a war which was grossly mismanaged from the start and should either be taken in a different direction or ended altogether.

It's costing my family $40 to fill up their gas tanks, twice a week, while prices for food and other necessities are skyrocketing.

The Euro is double the worth of the American dollar.

We have legitimate concerns which ought to be addressed. Obama may have handled this situation poorly. But he and the other candidates need to start focusing on the issues pretty soon. Otherwise, I'm scared as to where this nation will be in eight months, if the best we can do is bicker over this.


I agree with you 100% on what you said above. And I'll tell you something else: the reason why the Media is going nuts over this is because they're BORED. As am I. With this whole process. The media is romancing this whole campaign process into one huge soap opera. It's all about the ratings and spin now. And it's pathetic considering that this country is literally falling apart before our very eyes.

That's why when folks like Tron say this Pastor crap is a "crisis" I can't help but roll my eyes and laugh. We are LIVING a crisis everyday in REAL LIFE. Don't give me this crap as a qualified "crisis" or test of how a candidate will run the country.

Dropping these goddam gas prices will be better judge of that!!!!! :cmad:

[The Senator]

Sorry, but I am a man who takes faith very seriously. One's connection with God is usually one's guiding light in times of triumph and tragedy. And if this man, Barack Obama, is truly the man he says he is, a man who is close to God, and his view of God has been shaped by the beliefs of Jeremiah Wright, I have a very, very serious problem with his ability to lead this country.

I can deal with gas prices. The free market can fix the economy. We can end the war with the stroke of a pen. But we absolutely can not have as the leader of this country a man whose decisions may be influenced by the racist, anti-American teachings of a mentor, pastor and close friend of 20 years.

I stopped believing in God when I was told he wanted my people to burn in hell because we fall in love with a member of the same sex. So, I don't care one way or another which faith Obama belongs to.

My family can't deal with gas prices, and we drive cars with good mileage. They live in Upstate New York, where gas was $3.70 a gallon as of last week. They heat their homes with oil. That price has almost doubled since two years ago. Meanwhile, we're stuck paying off a mortgage they probably shouldn't have been approved for in the first place because they have to dish out money for food and other living expenses. They're in a financial bind which may break for them at any moment now.

I spoke with my dad earlier. He's a Republican. He feels that Obama's pastor is irrelevant to how he's going to vote this election. Maybe, just maybe, voters will see this.

I agree this calls into question Obama's judgment. But to think for one minute that Obama himself is an intolerant racist is quite cuckoo. Especially when John McCain went around ten years ago referring to Koreans as gooks. Is John McCain a racist? You'd probably say no, though he uttered those words himself.

I've had a 'great time' debating how Obama lacks judgment on this. But that's where it stops. It was a judgment problem, and he handled the ensuing situation poorly as well.

But... eh. It's been three days and I've got over a hundred posts on this...

[Lightning Strykez!]

Jeremiah Wright is more than simply a friend/acquaintance of Obama. He is the man who led him to God; his pastor of 20 years; his trusted spiritual adviser; his mentor; the man to whom he dedicated his last book, which happened to be named after and taken from a Wright sermon; his close friend; and an adviser in Obama's presidential campaign, until last week,

Don't try to act like their relationship is akin to Danny down the street borrowing your leafblower.

I didn't say it was. What I'm saying is, I DON'T CARE.

People should be concerned with whether Obama--the man running for president of the United States--is a racist. He clearly is not. Case closed. Moving on.

[Tron5000]

I agree with you 100% on what you said above. And I'll tell you something else: the reason why the Media is going nuts over this is because they're BORED. As am I. With this whole process. The media is romancing this whole campaign process into one huge soap opera. It's all about the ratings and spin now. And it's pathetic considering that this country is literally falling apart before our very eyes.

That's why when folks like Tron say this Pastor crap is a "crisis" I can't help but roll my eyes and laugh. We are LIVING a crisis everyday in REAL LIFE. Don't give me this crap as a qualified "crisis" or test of how a candidate will run the country.

Dropping these goddam gas prices will be better judge of that!!!!! :cmad:

I think you saying that the media is "going nuts over this because they're BORED" discounts the feelings of the millions of people who are totally appalled and offended by the actions of the church leader of and spiritual adviser to Obama. The reason that this is a big deal in the media is because it is a BIG DEAL to a lot of people.

[Tron5000]

I didn't say it was. What I'm saying is, I DON'T CARE.

People should be concerned with whether Obama--the man running for president of the United States--is a racist. He clearly is not. Case closed. Moving on.

"He clearly is not." Look, Obama decided to join this church 3 years after he began attending it. He saw the vitriol spewed from Wright, and decided that this was the place where he wanted to nurture his relationship with God. He connected with Jeremiah Wright. He has called him the greatest influence in his adult life. The. Greatest. Influence. How can this not give you pause?

[Lightning Strykez!]

I stopped believing in God when I was told he wanted my people to burn in hell because we fall in love with a member of the same sex.

Really? Wow.

I've never stopped believing in God. This might be a topic for a future Lightning Strykez Hype Exclusive!



But... eh. It's been three days and I've got over a hundred posts on this...

Your consolation prize is you get a bigger avatar if you keep this up. ;)

[The Senator]

Which is a shame since the ones that lie seem to be f**king up the country. Really, it's sort of a slow suicide of America.

My question to you is this: Since you mention that this idea is essentially wrong and ignorant...shouldn't something be done about it? Shouldn't we change the system instead of begrudgingly accepting it?

How do you suppose you do that? The only way to do that is take everyone who votes, kill them, and start the human race again.

Politicians lie because the voters want them to lie. Voters say they want the truth and nothing but the truth; but hell, if Hillary Clinton said she married Bill for political reasons, would she be where she is right now? If Obama said he considered converting to the Muslim faith-- which is NOT true; it's something that may have happened because his dad was a non-practicing Muslim-- do you think most Americans would even consider voting for him?

You can't be honest all the time. And I'm not asking Obama to lie all the time, either. I'm asking him to do whatever it takes to win.

[Mr Sparkle]

Hey, if Paris or Britney were running for president and belonged to a church similar to TUCC, I would expect their pastors to undergo the same scrutiny.

:huh: why? especially if their racist/anti-american-ness is not an issue.

[The Senator]

Really? Wow.

I've never stopped believing in God. This might be a topic for a future Lightning Strykez Hype Exclusive!

Well, I never stopped believing in God, so-to-speak. I'm on the fence. It will take some time for me to discover exactly where it is I want to go with my faith.



Your consolation prize is you get a bigger avatar if you keep this up. ;)

Shhhhh.... that's the only reason why I've been posting at this rate...

[Lightning Strykez!]

I think you saying that the media is "going nuts over this because they're BORED" discounts the feelings of the millions of people who are totally appalled and offended by the actions of the church leader of and spiritual adviser to Obama.

No it doesn't.

It puts into perspective the power of the media. Nothing can make a mountain out of a mole-hill more successfully than the media. Think about it: the media chose these two candidates (Hillary and Barack) and propelled them to stardom--shutting everyone else (Dodd, Edwards, etc.) out. And not because they are the most qualified and experienced. Nooooooooooooooo, because they are female and black respectively. Makes for a juicier story, see. ;)

And now, like two big balls of playdoh, they are molding this monster into whatever they like.

All they need is sheep to eat up their stories. *Ahem*


The reason that this is a big deal in the media is because it is a BIG DEAL to a lot of people.

Wrong bucko. The media brought this to the people's attention--not the other way around. They MADE it a big deal to all of us. Youtube's gotta love it.

[Tron5000]

:huh: why? especially if their racist/anti-american-ness is not an issue.

Say what? I'm pretty sure that's exactly what is currently at issue.

[Tron5000]

Wrong bucko. The media brought this to the people's attention--not the other way around. They MADE it a big deal to all of us. Youtube's gotta love it.

Yes, the media DID bring this to people's attention. And now people are "indignant" (to coin a favorite word of Jeremiah Wright) with the information with which they have been presented.

[Lightning Strykez!]

He has called him the greatest influence in his adult life.

Have you ever stopped to think that the pastor's hateful messages influenced Obama to actually look harder for the good in his fellowman? Surely this pastor's thinking is categorized with the same "old politics" that Obama has preached against.

Or conversely, "the greatest influence" may have been in reference to his path to "God".

Either way, I think you're trying to attribute Wright's thinking to Obama being a closeted racist, which I simply think is too farfetched for words.



How can this not give you pause?

I make up my own mind on these matters, therefore the media does not "give me pause". I simply do not give the media--or politicians--that much power over my ultimate decision-making process...which I guess is why I'm an independent.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Yes, the media DID bring this to people's attention. And now people are "indignant" (to coin a favorite word of Jeremiah Wright) with the information with which they have been presented.

And????!!?!?!

So???!!!!!?!?!?

Those who hated Obama still do. Those who love him still do. Nothing has changed. Next week, there will be another scandal that the media will launch, most likely against Hillary. Just sit tight as the world turns.

[The Senator]

I think this begs to be answered:

Is John McCain a racist? He used to refer to Koreans as gooks. He directly said these things during the 2000 election. When he was asked about the issue, he said that's just how he saw them after being tortured by them.

Are John McCain's words any less valid than Jeremiah Wright's? :huh:

[Lightning Strykez!]

Well, I never stopped believing in God, so-to-speak. I'm on the fence. It will take some time for me to discover exactly where it is I want to go with my faith.

Now THIS statement I actually understand. See, I told you we had at least some things in common. Even if I do think your candidate is trouble in a pantsuit. :cool:

[Lightning Strykez!]

I think this begs to be answered:

Is John McCain a racist? He used to refer to Koreans as gooks. He directly said these things during the 2000 election. When he was asked about the issue, he said that's just how he saw them after being tortured by them.

Are John McCain's words any less valid than Jeremiah Wright's? :huh:

You're jumping ahead Jman. That's next week's scandal. Be patient bro...we need to thoroughly exhaust this Obama situation first. It's a crisis!! :whatever:

[Tron5000]

Have you ever stopped to think that the pastor's hateful messages influenced Obama to actually look harder for the good in his fellowman? Surely this pastor's thinking is categorized with the same "old politics" that Obama has preached against.

Or conversely, "the greatest influence" may have been in reference to his path to "God".

Either way, I think you're trying to attribute Wright's thinking to Obama being a closeted racist, which I simply think is too farfetched for words.




I make up my own mind on these matters. The media does not "give me pause". I'm an independent.

Yeah, I guess Obama sat in that pew for 20 years, heard these racist, anti-America statements in church and in private, and all the while thought to himself, "Man, this guy's looney, but I'm going to rise above that!"

You are not a parishioner of a church for 20 years where you do not agree with the message that is being preached by the pastor. You can not consider a man the greatest influence in your adult life, your trusted spiritual adviser and a trusted member of your presidential campaign without agreeing with the views that he has imparted upon you and your entire Church family. And you certainly can't ell me that you were that close to someone, for 20 years, and were unaware of their racist, anti-American views. That just requires an unimaginable suspension of disbelief.

[The Senator]

Even if I do think your candidate is trouble in a pantsuit. :cool:

:whatever:

She looks fantastic in those pantsuits. Besides, would you want to see her in a dress?


I thought not :o

[Tron5000]

And????!!?!?!

So???!!!!!?!?!?

Those who hated Obama still do. Those who love him still do. Nothing has changed. Next week, there will be another scandal that the media will launch, most likely against Hillary. Just sit tight as the world turns.

You're asuming that there are only 2 groups of people involved here; those that "hated Obama" and those "who love him." Fact is, you can't win a presidential election without cross-over and independent votes. Obama has just wiped those out. All he has left are "[t]hose who still love him." And I assume you fall in that category.

[Lightning Strykez!]

:whatever:

She looks fantastic in those pantsuits. Besides, would you want to see her in a dress?


I thought not :o


No. Her revealing copious amounts of cankles and Thunderous Thighs would be a REAL national crisis. I go limp just thinking about it. LOL

[Lightning Strykez!]

You're asuming that there are only 2 groups of people involved here; those that "hated Obama" and those "who love him." Fact is, you can't win a presidential election without cross-over and independent votes. Obama has just wiped those out. All he has left are "[t]hose who still love him." And I assume you fall in that category.

Whoa...hold your little britches there brodie.

I don't "love" any of these candidates--and I have not voted for ANY of them. Why?

Because I don't believe any of them will do this country any good in a long run. The only thing that impresses me about Obama is his character and the brilliant way he's run his campaign. Both he, Hillary and McCain are all novices as far as I'm concerned, and none of them will rectify all the problems we're facing right now. They each have serious weaknesses in terms of healthcare, security and enconomy.

So I'm sorry but this soap opera crap that you're all uptight about does not carry weight against the bigger national issues in my mind.

[The Senator]

No. Her revealing copious amounts of cankles and Thunderous Thighs would be a REAL national crisis. I go limp just thinking about it. LOL

She doesn't have cankles. That rumor was dispelled when I volunteered for her campaign.

[Tron5000]

Whoa...hold your little britches there brodie.

I don't "love" any of these candidates--and I have not voted for ANY of them. Why?

Because I don't believe any of them will do this country any good in a long run. The only thing that impresses me about Obama is his character and the brilliant way he's run his campaign. Both he, Hillary and McCain are all novices as far as I'm concerned, and none of them will rectify all the problems we're facing right now. They each have serious weaknesses in terms of healthcare, security and enconomy.

So I'm sorry but this soap opera crap that you're all uptight about does not carry weight against the bigger national issues in my mind.

If you're impressed by Obama's "character," is it not distressing to you that he has outright lied to you about his knowledge of Jeremiah Wright's beliefs? I would consider his dishonesty on this issue to be a severe indictment on Obama's character.

[Lightning Strykez!]

If you're impressed by Obama's "character," is it not distressing to you that he has outright lied to you about his knowledge of Jeremiah Wright's beliefs? I would consider his dishonesty on this issue to be a severe indictment on Obama's character.

Distressed? What the **** would I be distressed for? Spending almost $100 a week on GASOLINE is distressing to me. That's an indictment on my wallet.

As I mentioned, I'm not staking my hope for the future on these people. None of them will do America right. I was watching with interest up till Super Tuesday and the Potomac Primaries. Now that the media is bored for the next 6 weeks until the Penn. Primary, it's officially a soap opera and I'm like...Okay, next. So no, there is nothing to be distressed or distraught about--I'm simply not that wrapped up in it.

Why are you???? :o

[The Senator]

Whoa...hold your little britches there brodie.

I don't "love" any of these candidates--and I have not voted for ANY of them. Why?

Because I don't believe any of them will do this country any good in a long run. The only thing that impresses me about Obama is his character and the brilliant way he's run his campaign. Both he, Hillary and McCain are all novices as far as I'm concerned, and none of them will rectify all the problems we're facing right now. They each have serious weaknesses in terms of healthcare, security and enconomy.

So I'm sorry but this soap opera crap that you're all uptight about does not carry weight against the bigger national issues in my mind.

That's actually how I view the three candidates.

I like Obama. I think he's a brilliant speaker, and I agree that he's done a fine job with his campaign organization. I just don't think he's been showing me the money, so to speak, when it comes to his accomplishments.

I like Hillary. I think she's a damn hawk, and that's what I'm looking for in a President. I want someone who will come down tough on issues such as the war, Iraq and health care. I want someone who will prove she is just as tough and biting as the Republicans. After two failed elections where the candidates have been pegged as too liberal for America, I think she's quite the middle-roader. Of course, I do think she has some issues. Namely, she doesn't know how to focus on the issues; she confuses experience with tenure; and she has a tendency to piss far too many people off than she should.

I am on the fence with McCain. If any Republican had to be the nominee, I would have picked him, solely because I don't think he'd try to do anything which would send this country back to the dark ages. I ****ING HATE his stance on the war, and that turns me off more than anything. I also hate how he thinks earmarks are the biggest waste of money ever, when they only count for .75% of our budget. And I also don't think he knows jack **** about some of the important issues facing the American voter, such as the economy.

Mark Warner, Evan Bayh, and Russ Feingold would have been perfect candidates had they run. Bayh and Warner are the male equivalents of everything Hillary thinks she is: Experienced and centrist. Meanwhile, Feingold is everything Obama wishes he was: A strong, vocal opponent of the war from the very beginning, with the experience and accomplishments to back up his views.

Unfortunately, these guys never ran.

[Tron5000]

Distressed? What the **** would I be distressed for? Spending almost $100 a week on GASOLINE is distressing to me. That's an indictment on my wallet.

As I mentioned, I'm not staking my hope for the future on these people. None of them will do America right. I was watching with interest up till Super Tuesday and the Potomac Primaries. Now that the media is bored for the next 6 weeks until the Penn. Primary, it's officially a soap opera and I'm like...Okay, next. So no, there is nothing to be distressed or distraught about--I'm simply not that wrapped up in it.

Why are you???? :o

I am distressed because the future of this nation, as well as that of the entire world, will be greatly influenced by the individual who is elected to the presidency of our wonderful country. And I believe that the person who is the topic of this discussion has proved himself to be unfit to assume the mantle of the Leader of the Free World.

[Mr Sparkle]

I am distressed because the future of this nation, as well as that of the entire world, will be greatly influenced by the individual who is elected to the presidency of our wonderful country. And I believe that the person who is the topic of this discussion has proved himself to be unfit to assume the mantle of the Leader of the Free World.

so based upon the actions of a third party you're judging a man.
basically, not his qualifications but the qualifications of a man not only not running, but of no political importance whatsoever?

ok. :up:

[Lightning Strykez!]

You can't be honest all the time. And I'm not asking Obama to lie all the time, either. I'm asking him to do whatever it takes to win.

You mean like Hillary and her campaign? And how is that working out for you? :cool:

[Tron5000]

so based upon the actions of a third party you're judging a man.
basically, not his qualifications but the qualifications of a man not only not running, but of no political importance whatsoever?

ok. :up:

Obama's "qualifiications" encompass those with whom he is close. Being a follower of Jeremiah Wright, in my opinion, is a disqualifying factor for Obama.

[Mr Sparkle]

where's the " not an issue so I don't give a crap" Option?

[Lightning Strykez!]

so based upon the actions of a third party you're judging a man.
basically, not his qualifications but the qualifications of a man not only not running, but of no political importance whatsoever?

ok. :up:

Basically.

[Mr Sparkle]

Obama's "qualifiications" encompass those with whom he is close. Being a follower of Jeremiah Wright, in my opinion, is a disqualifying factor for Obama.

:huh: no, his qualifications are the required work related knowledge, education and experience.

no mention of " close friends" I mean....again, JFK= the mob, Bush sr. and Jr. = the Saudi Government ( notorious human rights violators) .

nothing to do with anything.

[MaskedManJRK]

How do you suppose you do that? The only way to do that is take everyone who votes, kill them, and start the human race again.

Politicians lie because the voters want them to lie. Voters say they want the truth and nothing but the truth; but hell, if Hillary Clinton said she married Bill for political reasons, would she be where she is right now? If Obama said he considered converting to the Muslim faith-- which is NOT true; it's something that may have happened because his dad was a non-practicing Muslim-- do you think most Americans would even consider voting for him?

You can't be honest all the time. And I'm not asking Obama to lie all the time, either. I'm asking him to do whatever it takes to win.

I'm well aware that it's very idealistic and very unlikely to happen (personally I would rather there be a massive upswing in intelligence or perhaps a generation that collectively sees through their parents' bulls**t rather than through violent means), but it annoys me that people will believe everything they hear without at least putting some critical thinking into it, is not actually research it. At this point I bet I could spread that John McCain is actually an immortal vampire thats been around for 200 years and I could convince at least a dozen people of it.

[Super_Ludacris]

Its hiliarious how people are trying make this all out like Obama is done for. I mean lets review: Crazy Pastor catches the holy ghost and says some things that while extremely harsh and boderline nuts in context, should still be worth discussing (Did our involvment breed internationally in the past in certain regions and alliances breed terrorism?)
Barack basically says the truth, which is that he never heard him say that while he was in church (and why would he?). Then he discusses the whole state of race from the
perspective of his mixed ethnicity and delves into the issue of how people do feel enraged and galvinised to say such things like what the Pastor Jerimiah said (Ive heard people say it, I feel that way sometimes when I see things like Katrina, Iraq, neglection of Darfur etc, even if its said in a harsh context)

But I mean if this ends it for Obama then its kinda sad because it leaves a book thats been opened for generations in this country and instead of approaching the issue we turn the other cheek and vote for the "safe" option. I mean its whatever, maybe thats how the political game is played, some people wont even turnout in November to vote. But Barack has still earned my respect cause I OVERstand where he's coming from completley even if he is in the so-called wrong. But thats just my opinion.

[Matt]

It was a beautiful speech, but it didn't do what it needed to do. He did not explain why he would sit in pews and listen to this man preach this hate speech for 20 years. He did not explain why he lied when the issue first broke. He did not answer the questions that needed to be answered. And they need to be answered because this racist man was guiding his spiritual journey? I could accept it if it was just an old friend, but this was his pastor, his "mentor" and his spiritual advisor. As someone pointed out, when Bush 1 was preparing to intervene in the Gulf, there were pictures all over the news of him walking through the White House rose garden with his pastor and spiritual advisor discussing the ethics behind the invasion. Is this the type of man you want advising Obama if that time comes during his presidency?

Obama is not going to lose any hardcore supporters over this. After all, as Souvalki has proven, die-hard supporter will condemn Hillary for Ferarro's comments but defend Obama for Wright's comments. He will lose independents and on the fence voters as he did not properly address the issue at hand.

[Matt]

Whoa...hold your little britches there brodie.

I don't "love" any of these candidates--and I have not voted for ANY of them. Why?

Because I don't believe any of them will do this country any good in a long run. The only thing that impresses me about Obama is his character and the brilliant way he's run his campaign. Both he, Hillary and McCain are all novices as far as I'm concerned, and none of them will rectify all the problems we're facing right now. They each have serious weaknesses in terms of healthcare, security and enconomy.

So I'm sorry but this soap opera crap that you're all uptight about does not carry weight against the bigger national issues in my mind.

I think we need to watch McCain's VP candidate with great interest. Why? Because odds are if McCain wins the presidency, his VP will be president within 2 years. McCain is not in good health. Did you see him walking into the crowd to shake hands following his winning the nomination? He could barely walk on his own. Nearly 10 years of torture had to take at least 10 years off of his life. Factor in his age and the stress of being president. There is a damn good chance he will die before the first half of his term is over. So we should really scrutinize who he chooses as his VP because there is a damn good chance he will be president sooner or later.

[Super_Ludacris]

I think we need to watch McCain's VP candidate with great interest. Why? Because odds are if McCain wins the presidency, his VP will be president within 2 years. McCain is not in good health. Did you see him walking into the crowd to shake hands following his winning the nomination? He could barely walk on his own. Nearly 10 years of torture had to take at least 10 years off of his life. Factor in his age and the stress of being president. There is a damn good chance he will die before the first half of his term is over. So we should really scrutinize who he chooses as his VP because there is a damn good chance he will be president sooner or later.

Because no one else is :huh::woot:

[Super_Ludacris]

His health is exactly why he wont win the election.

[Asgard]

When did he lie?

Obama made it clear in his speech that he does not agree with any of the racist remarks the Rev says. He makes it clear that the reasons why he holds this man in high regard is because

he helped introduce me to my Christian faith, a man who spoke to me about our obligations to love one another; to care for the sick and lift up the poor. He is a man who served his country as a U.S. Marine; who has studied and lectured at some of the finest universities and seminaries in the country, and who for over thirty years led a church that serves the community by doing God’s work here on Earth – by housing the homeless, ministering to the needy, providing day care services and scholarships and prison ministries, and reaching out to those suffering from HIV/AIDS.


Can you please post something the Reverend said concerning war with other nations as proof that his opinions on that matter would hold any weight with Obama?

If you can't then I dont see this as an issue, since the only war Obama's had an opinion on as far as I know was the Iraq war and he was against that.

[Matt]

When the scandal first broke, Obama claimed that he was never present when Pastor Wright made such remarks. Tuesday he admitted to being in the pews when Pastor Wright said such things, therefore Obama lied. Either he lied when he said he was never present for such remarks or he lied when he said he was.

[Matt]

It depends on his VP. If he gets a young, energetic, exciting VP who can convince people they can step in if need be, then his health and age shouldn't play that much of a factor as if Hillary or Obama had the balls to play the age card (and I have my doubts if they would), he could say "Well, my running mate is more than prepared to step in if anything did happen." However for those words to work his running mate needs to inspire confidence. That could be one reason Romney is a good choice. He seems cool as a cumber at all times. Has a "presidential swagger" about him, etc. If McCain picks someone like Cheney, he is screwed.

[Asgard]

Wasnt he speaking about those specific remarks that started this whole thing?

In the speech, he doesnt says he has heard "remarks that could be considered controversial", but he doesnt say they were the ones he denied hearing in the first place.

[Matt]

He denied hearing Pastor Wright speak in such a manner. To me that is a general, blanket statement. Obama supporters can play semantics all they want. The fact of the matter is, their demi-god was caught in a lie.

[Memphis Slim]

It was a beautiful speech, but it didn't do what it needed to do. He did not explain why he would sit in pews and listen to this man preach this hate speech for 20 years. He did not explain why he lied when the issue first broke. He did not answer the questions that needed to be answered. And they need to be answered because this racist man was guiding his spiritual journey? I could accept it if it was just an old friend, but this was his pastor, his "mentor" and his spiritual advisor. As someone pointed out, when Bush 1 was preparing to intervene in the Gulf, there were pictures all over the news of him walking through the White House rose garden with his pastor and spiritual advisor discussing the ethics behind the invasion. Is this the type of man you want advising Obama if that time comes during his presidency?

Obama is not going to lose any hardcore supporters over this. After all, as Souvalki has proven, die-hard supporter will condemn Hillary for Ferarro's comments but defend Obama for Wright's comments. He will lose independents and on the fence voters as he did not properly address the issue at hand.


Basically, he should have had a press conference and answered some questions.

[Memphis Slim]

He denied hearing Pastor Wright speak in such a manner. To me that is a general, blanket statement. Obama supporters can play semantics all they want. The fact of the matter is, their demi-god was caught in a lie.


Yep...

[Matt]

Basically, he should have had a press conference and answered some questions.

Yeah, I agree. One of the biggest criticisms of Bush is that he does not hold enough press conferences, especially when there is a hot issue surrounding him. It is a valid criticism as press conferences pretty much force politicans to answer questions that should be answered as opposed to simply making a statement on their own terms. Keeps politicans honest. Obama should not be held to any lower of a standard.

There are several questions around this "scandal" that need answering and instead of sitting up in his ivory tower, making a speech about race, no matter how eloquent it was, he should've been answering questions about Wright, the specifics of what he disagrees with, why he would stay in a church that preached hate-speech for 20 years, why he would expose his children to that, why he lied when the story first broke, etc.

[Memphis Slim]

Yeah, I agree. One of the biggest criticisms of Bush is that he does not hold enough press conferences, especially when there is a hot issue surrounding him. It is a valid criticism as press conferences pretty much force politicans to answer questions that should be answered as opposed to simply making a statement on their own terms. Keeps politicans honest. Obama should not be held to any lower of a standard.

There are several questions around this "scandal" that need answering and instead of sitting up in his ivory tower, making a speech about race, no matter how eloquent it was, he should've been answering questions about Wright, the specifics of what he disagrees with, why he would stay in a church that preached hate-speech for 20 years, why he would expose his children to that, why he lied when the story first broke, etc.

I feel dirty.....
we agree on something.:csad:

[Asgard]

He denied hearing Pastor Wright speak in such a manner. To me that is a general, blanket statement. Obama supporters can play semantics all they want. The fact of the matter is, their demi-god was caught in a lie.

No. He denies hearing the specific speech that is the cause of the controversy.

http://wwwtmrcom.blogspot.com/2008/03/did-obama-lie-about-hearing-pastors.html

“The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity [United Church of Christ] or heard him utter in private conversation.”

He doesnt deny ever hearing any controversial maybe even racist remarks made by the pastor in his speeches. He also makes it a point to say that in private, the Rev never speaks of any race in a disparaging way and has always been courteous with whites.

[Tron5000]

No. He denies hearing the specific speech that is the cause of the controversy.

http://wwwtmrcom.blogspot.com/2008/03/did-obama-lie-about-hearing-pastors.html



He doesnt deny ever hearing any controversial maybe even racist remarks made by the pastor in his speeches. He also makes it a point to say that in private, the Rev never speaks of any race in a disparaging way and has always been courteous with whites.

He said he was "shocked" to learn that Jeremiah Wright preached such things, yet yesterday he acknowledged hearing such sentiments. If you want to play around with the words, feel free. If you actually believe that this man could be a parishioner of this church for 20 years and call this man his friend, "trusted spiritual adviser," and member of his family, and never had heard Wright utter his vitriol either in public or private, I have some oceanfront property in Kansas that I would like to sell you.

Edit: It's not about a "specific speech." These were the teachings that Jeremiah Wright imparted upon his congregation for decades. This wasn't just a slip-up one Sunday when Wright was a little drunk or something.

[terry78]

One of the local radio personalities here said he's been to the church and that there were whites in the audience everytime he's been, as it's a pretty popular Chi-town church. So something is not adding up.

[Super_Ludacris]

Speech was excellent cause he was very honest which I appreciated and made me respect him even more.

The options on the poll in this thread? Not so much....

[Tron5000]

One of the local radio personalities here said he's been to the church and that there were whites in the audience everytime he's been, as it's a pretty popular Chi-town church. So something is not adding up.

What's "not adding up" is Obama saying he never heard these inflammatory statements either in public or in private, when he has been a parishioner of this church for 20 years, credits Wright with bringing him to God, calls Wright his friend and trusted spiritual adviser, titles his book after a Wright sermon, dedicates his book to Wright, calls him the greatest influence in his adult life, and appoints him to a position on his presidential committee. So I guess everyone in the church heard these statements (don't tell me Obama hasn't seen the "Greatest Hits" DVD sold in the church) except Obama. He must've been sick that day.

[William_C]

I wasnt swayed by what Obama's preacher said. To quote a few people from earlier, its not the preacher that is a candidate. The preacher isnt Obama's running mate or anything like that. But as far as the speech itself goes, I doubt that it might have been enough for the people of the press, or even the people who were questioning where Obama stands on the matter.

[Tron5000]

I wasnt swayed by what Obama's preacher said. To quote a few people from earlier, its not the preacher that is a candidate. The preacher isnt Obama's running mate or anything like that. But as far as the speech itself goes, I doubt that it might have been enough for the people of the press, or even the people who were questioning where Obama stands on the matter.

Would you consider it appropriate to be swayed if John McCain's pastor preached hatred against blacks and said that blacks had engineered and spread a virus for the purpose of genocide against the white race?

[Super_Ludacris]

One of the local radio personalities here said he's been to the church and that there were whites in the audience everytime he's been, as it's a pretty popular Chi-town church. So something is not adding up.

I wanna go to his church, his show sounds live. :word:

[terry78]

Now the reports are saying that Obama's massive lead over Clinton has basically evaporated. Sad.

[Tron5000]

Now the reports are saying that Obama's massive lead over Clinton has basically evaporated. Sad.

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN1824791220080319?feedType=RSS&feedName=politicsNews&rpc=22&sp=true

The poll showed Obama had only a statistically insignificant lead of 47 percent to 44 percent over Clinton, down sharply from a 14 point edge he held over her in February when he was riding the tide of 10 straight victories.

McCain leads 46 percent to 40 percent in a hypothetical matchup against Obama in the November presidential election, according to the poll.

That is a sharp turnaround from the Reuters/Zogby poll from last month, which showed in a head-to-head matchup that Obama would beat McCain 47 percent to 40 percent.

Matched up against Clinton, McCain leads 48 percent to 40 percent, narrower than his 50 to 38 percent advantage over her in February.

[Memphis Slim]

Would you consider it appropriate to be swayed if John McCain's pastor preached hatred against blacks and said that blacks had engineered and spread a virus for the purpose of genocide against the white race?


what Geraldine Ferraro said is being played out right before our eyes. Look at this situation. If he were a "white man" Obama would be toast. His whole campaign in ruins.

Like she said, Obama is lucky to be black, to be who he is today. People are giving him leeway that no candidate would get, right now. People are so caught up in the thought of this!

She was not being racist....just tellin' the truth. People handle this guy with kid gloves. No one in the media has demanded a press conference. Don't you find that odd???

[kane9321]

It was great..great i tell ya, this man is great, he spoke from the heart. What more can you ask for

[Memphis Slim]

Now the reports are saying that Obama's massive lead over Clinton has basically evaporated. Sad.


His "judgment" should have told him to leave that church years ago.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

This is true.

That being said, Obama may have his reasons.

I know this is a terrible analogy, but I hate my principal. She's a power hungry, egomaniacal, fascist who doesn't let kids express themselves, has driven kids to near-insanity, curses at both teachers and staff, and has a history of students' rights violations and reported abuses (and she teaches Special Ed - go figure), yet I choose to stay there because I have great friends and teachers who feel the same way I do, am getting a decent education, and also feel an emotional obligation to it because it did help me get over a heck of a lot of previously damaging issues when I first attended.

Obama may feel this way about leaving his church.


Neat.
Now, would you ask your principal to join your campaign if you were running for president?

When one finds one's self saying, "I know this is a bad analogy...", another one wonders...why you'd want to make a bad analogy.
Bad.

[Super_Ludacris]

Now the reports are saying that Obama's massive lead over Clinton has basically evaporated. Sad.

**** it cause if he loses, aint too many people gonna turn out for a McCain-Clinton election. Let both parties get ****ed.

[Tron5000]

It was great..great i tell ya, this man is great, he spoke from the heart. What more can you ask for

I can ask for a presidential candidate who is not a member of a church where racist and anti-American vitriol is spewed on a regular basis. I can ask for a presidential candidate who does not lie to my face about ever hearing such sentiments from such a close friend and trusted spiritual adviser of 20 years.

[Marx]

His "judgment" should have told him to leave that church years ago.

I agree Slim. For someone who has blasted Hillary on judgement, he surely has no room to talk. I believe his argument was "It's important to be ready on day one, but also to be right on day one." I think this dings his credibility a little. The polls obviously reflect that.

[Super_Ludacris]

Someone remind me again how its his fault for the Pastor's speech.

lol@ Hilary suddenly being a good judgement of character now. Her man skeeted on the presidential sheets lol. It aint like Obama living with the Pastor lol

[kane9321]

Please tell me one thing....How is this obama's fault? Does he control his pastor's mouth or brain.This whole inncident is just ridiculous

[Marx]

Someone remind me again how its his fault for the Pastor's speech.

lol@ Hilary suddenly being a good judgement of character now. Her man skeeted on the presidential sheets lol. It aint like Obama living with the Pastor lol

Bill Clinton has absolutely nothing to do with this Luda. I really find it sad that people who attack Hillary resort to the "Bill had an affair" punchline. You mean Hillary decided to stay with her husband!?!?!?! Let's burn her at the stake! God forbid people actually work through their problems. :cmad:

[ray243]

Seriously as a foreigner, I am dissapointed that some americans can't even distinguish a good speech from a bad one.

You guys have one of the most honest canidate around yet, some people still dislike Obama? And like Jon Steward have said, Obama is addressing to the people as 'adults'...

[Tron5000]

Someone remind me again how its his fault for the Pastor's speech.

lol@ Hilary suddenly being a good judgement of character now. Her man skeeted on the presidential sheets lol. It aint like Obama living with the Pastor lol

It's not "his fault." What IS his fault is his close personal relationship Jeremiah Wright and his 20-year membership in his church. People are judged by the company they keep. Obama is keeping some awfully shady company.

[ShadowBoxing]

It's not "his fault." What IS his fault is his close personal relationship Jeremiah Wright and his 20-year membership in his church. People are judged by the company they keep. Obama is keeping some awfully shady company.
You should judge people on their own merits and faults, not the merits and faults of anyone else, even their own family members. Amongst my family is a pedophile, a rapist, a habitual drug user and even a 40 year old virgin. Amongst my friends is a man who has sex with his clientel for money, a guy who uses cocaine, my best friend is a very conservative Christian and several other colorful characters. Sometimes on holidays we all get together and laugh and joke and sing, carry on, in the presense of the shadows that hang over both my family and my friends. I certainly, though, am not going to change myself to fit my surroundings, or let my friends actions influence the actions and character of myself. My reasons for being with them, and keeping their company are many and varied...and far too complicated for me to address except on a person by person basis. So no, you do not judge people by the company they keep, in fact that in and of itself is the root of racism. Judging people as groups rather than as individuals.

[Tron5000]

You should judge people on their own merits and faults, not the merits and faults of anyone else, even their own family members. Amongst my family is a pedophile, a rapist, a habitual drug user and even a 40 year old virgin. Amongst my friends is a man who has sex with his clientel for money, a guy who uses cocaine, and several other colorful characters. Sometimes on holidays we all get together and laugh and joke and sing, carry on, in the presense of the shadows that hang over both my family and my friends. I certainly, though, am not going to change myself to fit my surroundings, or let my friends actions influence the actions and character of myself. My reasons for being with them, and keeping their company are many and varied...and far too complicated for me to address except on a person by person basis. So no, you do not judge people by the company they keep, in fact that in and of itself is the root of racism. Judging people as groups rather than as individuals.

OK, you say "you should judge people on their own merits and faults." Obama has stated that Jeremiah Wright led him to God, was instrumental in helping him formulate his religious beliefs, and was a trusted adviser. That bothers me. That bothers me a great deal.

[Super_Ludacris]

True indeed Shadow.

And again, Obama is being honest saying he never saw Jerimiah say that stuff when he went to church. Cause if he did, even if he agreed with him for politics sake he would cut ties.

But I mean one rant (where he said alot of stuff that needs to be addressed about this country by this country) is suddenly Obama's fault? Do you realise how bat **** insane you sound.

What about Bush then? This dude been cool with some crazy fundamentalist christian pastors himself and he got ties with Saudi Families related to Bin Laden. By that logic do we blame him cause I think we should. What about Rumsfeld, we've seen pictures of him with Saddam Hussien on business trips to Iraq in the 80s. Whats really good with that?




**** outta here.....

[ShadowBoxing]

OK, you say "you should judge people on their own merits and faults." Obama has stated that Jeremiah Wright led him to God, was instrumental in helping him formulate his religious beliefs, and was a trusted adviser. That bothers me. That bothers me a great deal.
And again, you go right back to using Wright as a basis for judgement against another human being. The cycle continues.

[SuBe]

You should judge people on their own merits and faults, not the merits and faults of anyone else, even their own family members. Amongst my family is a pedophile, a rapist, a habitual drug user and even a 40 year old virgin. Amongst my friends is a man who has sex with his clientel for money, a guy who uses cocaine, and several other colorful characters. Sometimes on holidays we all get together and laugh and joke and sing, carry on, in the presense of the shadows that hang over both my family and my friends. I certainly, though, am not going to change myself to fit my surroundings, or let my friends actions influence the actions and character of myself. My reasons for being with them, and keeping their company are many and varied...and far too complicated for me to address except on a person by person basis. So no, you do not judge people by the company they keep, in fact that in and of itself is the root of racism. Judging people as groups rather than as individuals.
But what does that say about your charactor, that you would associate with people that engage in illegal behavior and you just accept it without standing up for the Rule of law or a Morale Code? What would that say about you if you were running for president?

[Super_Ludacris]

OK, you say "you should judge people on their own merits and faults." Obama has stated that Jeremiah Wright led him to God, was instrumental in helping him formulate his religious beliefs, and was a trusted adviser. That bothers me. That bothers me a great deal.

Why? The dude just said in his speech he never heard Jermiah say any anti-american rants in his sermons. How was he suppose to know?

[Super_Ludacris]

But what does that say about your charactor, that you would associate with people that engage in illegal behavior and you just accept it without standing up for the Rule of law or a Morale Code? What would that say about you if you were running for president?

Critiscing this country is illegal now? I thought it applied to freedom of speech.

[SuBe]

Critiscing this country is illegal now? I thought it applied to freedom of speech.
I did say Moral Code, ya'know.

[Tron5000]

And again, you go right back to using Wright as a basis for judgement against another human being. The cycle continues.

Yes, I will judge Obama by the decisions he has made. He decided to join this man's church. He decided not to leave when he knew of the filth being preached there. He chose to bring Jeremiah Wright into his inner circle. He chose to associate with known criminal Tony Rezko. He chose to befried William Ayers, and admitted, unapologetic terrorist and enemy of this country.

The fact that Obama would knowingly associate with these individuals over such a long period of time is greatly disturbing.

[Excel]

You should judge people on their own merits and faults, not the merits and faults of anyone else, even their own family members. Amongst my family is a pedophile, a rapist, a habitual drug user and even a 40 year old virgin. Amongst my friends is a man who has sex with his clientel for money, a guy who uses cocaine, my best friend is a very conservative Christian and several other colorful characters. Sometimes on holidays we all get together and laugh and joke and sing, carry on, in the presense of the shadows that hang over both my family and my friends. I certainly, though, am not going to change myself to fit my surroundings, or let my friends actions influence the actions and character of myself. My reasons for being with them, and keeping their company are many and varied...and far too complicated for me to address except on a person by person basis. So no, you do not judge people by the company they keep, in fact that in and of itself is the root of racism. Judging people as groups rather than as individuals.

Yeah seriously, by the company you keep?

Jman lets say you went to high school and would talk to some kid in class and he became a seriel killer. I guess that means your a bad person right? By your logic?

[ShadowBoxing]

But what does that say about your charactor, that you would associate with people that engage in illegal behavior and you just accept it without standing up for the Rule of law or a Morale Code? What would that say about you if you were running for president?
Maybe I think my friends and families actions and words are their own goddamn business and it's not my place to be responsible for them. If you live your life turning and correcting every tom, dick and harry for every misdeed and unlawful act then you're ten times worse then they are for doing those things in the first place. It's not my place to tell my friends and family how to live their life.

[Super_Ludacris]

I did say Moral Code, ya'know.

**** a Moral Code. If this country was built on Moral codes, my great grandfather shouldnt have been on a field picking cotton, The native americans shouldnt have been pillaged for there land, we shouldnt have bombed Hiroshima (knowing the collateral damage), People shouldnt have had to wait a month for food and water in New Orleans, we should have listened to the UN inspectors before going to Iraq.

Oh people wanna talk moral codes now.....

[Tron5000]

Why? The dude just said in his speech he never heard Jermiah say any anti-american rants in his sermons. How was he suppose to know?

Yeah, I certainly believe that Obama was a parishioner of this man's church for 20 years, accepted his counsel in private, considers him a member of his family, and calls him the greatest inspiration in his adult life, but had absolutely no idea of the hatred that was in this man's heart and preached from his pulpit.

If you truly believe that Obama had no idea that his pastor, spiritual adviser and close friend harbored and preached racist, anti-American ideologies (which requires much more than the willing suspension of disbelief), then that would mean that Obama is incredibly naive, ignorant of the (broadcasted) beliefs of those closest to him, and, at best, has incredibly poor judgment of those with whom he chooses to surround himself.

These are not qualities that I want in the man leading this great nation.

[ShadowBoxing]

Also if you're going to discount an entire black man's Presidental bid on the fact that he has black friends with a less than favorable view of a America, then we're never going to have a black President.

[MST3K 4ever]

Throughout all of this there has been a positive effect if nothing else:

Once again we are talking about race relations. When was the last time this issue was seriously discussed? Other than the whole Don Imus situation.

I am still on the fence about Obama how he continues to handle this issue as time goes on will be the standard I use to decide if I vote for him or not. (I don't see this issue going away)anytime soon

The one man I want here from is Pastor Wright himself. Something other than the Youtube clips. Let him come out and say what is on his mind.

The speech itself was very powerful...and believe it or not the person who summed it perfectly for me was Jon Stewart on last night's "The Daily Show." When he said, "Today at 11 am a Polictican talked to me about race relations as an adult."

[Super_Ludacris]

Yeah, I certainly believe that Obama was a parishioner of this man's church for 20 years, accepted his counsel in private, considers him a member of his family, and calls him the greatest inspiration in his adult life, but had absolutely no idea of the hatred that was in this man's heart and preached from his pulpit.

If you truly believe that Obama had no idea that his pastor, spiritual adviser and close friend harbored and preached racist, anti-American ideologies (which requires much more than the willing suspension of disbelief), then that would mean that Obama is incredibly naive, ignorant of the (broadcasted) beliefs of those closest to him, and, at best, has incredibly poor judgment of those with whom he chooses to surround himself.

These are not qualities that I want in the man leading this great nation.


He has one rant caught on tape, and now you think he runs his church like that?

Lets say he does regularly preach like this like some are speculating. Has this been reflected in any way in Obama's campaign so far by what hes said?

[Tron5000]

Why? The dude just said in his speech he never heard Jermiah say any anti-american rants in his sermons. How was he suppose to know?

And you also expect me to believe Obama had no idea of Wright's beliefs when the following screencap was taken from mybarackobama.com:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f206/harrelson2131/obama_wright.jpg

[Tron5000]

He has one rant caught on tape, and now you think he runs his church like that?

Lets say he does regularly preach like this like some are speculating. Has this been reflected in any way in Obama's campaign so far by what hes said?

It is much more than 1 rant. Go to youtube and search for Jeremiah Wright. You will find a multitude of his hate-filled sermons.

And this "one rant" of which you speak just happened to come from Wright's "Greatest Hits" DVD, which is sold IN HIS CHURCH.

[MST3K 4ever]

It depends on his VP. If he gets a young, energetic, exciting VP who can convince people they can step in if need be, then his health and age shouldn't play that much of a factor as if Hillary or Obama had the balls to play the age card (and I have my doubts if they would), he could say "Well, my running mate is more than prepared to step in if anything did happen." However for those words to work his running mate needs to inspire confidence. That could be one reason Romney is a good choice. He seems cool as a cumber at all times. Has a "presidential swagger" about him, etc. If McCain picks someone like Cheney, he is screwed.

The one person who could almost guarantee McCain a win is (IMO)...Colin Powell.

Though I don't see Powell doing it.

[Tron5000]

The one person who could almost guarantee McCain a win is (IMO)...Colin Powell.

Though I don't see Powell doing it.

Condoleeza Rice. That would seal it for McCain.

[MST3K 4ever]

Condoleeza Rice. That would seal it for McCain.

Possilby but if I recall she has said she won't do it...then again when has someone in politics not said one thing and done another?

[Super_Ludacris]

Throughout all of this there has been a positive effect if nothing else:

Once again we are talking about race relations. When was the last time this issue was seriously discussed? Other than the whole Don Imus situation.

I am still on the fence about Obama how he continues to handle this issue as time goes on will be the standard I use to decide if I vote for him or not. (I don't see this issue going away)anytime soon

The one man I want here from is Pastor Wright himself. Something other than the Youtube clips. Let him come out and say what is on his mind.

The speech itself was very powerful...and believe it or not the person who summed it perfectly for me was Jon Stewart on last night's "The Daily Show." When he said, "Today at 11 am a Polictican talked to me about race relations as an adult."


Thats what I was saying initially. And this is something that NEEDS to be addressed in this country. Especially given all the stuff thats not only happen with Imus and Jena 6 but with stuff like New Orleans still in people's minds and just the general problems that America has had being a growing multi-cultured nation while trying to adhere to old single culture values.

[Kelly]

Condoleeza Rice. That would seal it for McCain.

She has already said that her answer would be no.....that is not the direction she wants to take her career after this year.

[Super_Ludacris]

It is much more than 1 rant. Go to youtube and search for Jeremiah Wright. You will find a multitude of his hate-filled sermons.

And this "one rant" of which you speak just happened to come from Wright's "Greatest Hits" DVD, which is sold IN HIS CHURCH.

Do me a favour and list out some of things he said that your hurt your feelings and then we can discuss them one by one .

[Tron5000]

She has already said that her answer would be no.....that is not the direction she wants to take her career after this year.

I'm not saying she will do it. I was just adding to the speculation of who would help McCain the most in a general election. She would be, in my opinion, an excellent candidate with immense qualifications.

She's holding out for Commissioner of the NFL. That's her dream job.

[Super_Ludacris]

And you also expect me to believe Obama had no idea of Wright's beliefs when the following screencap was taken from mybarackobama.com:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f206/harrelson2131/obama_wright.jpg

Shoot, Jermiah is saying the same stuff about us that every country has said. I appoint him Secretary of State.

[Tron5000]

Do me a favour and list out some of things he said that your hurt your feelings and then we can discuss them one by one .

These statements don't "hurt my feelings." They infuriate me.



"God damn America – that’s in the Bible – for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating us citizens as less than human. God damn America ..."

"We cannot see how what we are doing is the same thing al-Qaida is doing under a different color flag ... And guess what else. If they don’t find them some weapons of mass destruction, they going to do just like the LAPD and plant them some weapons of mass destruction."

"We started the AIDS virus. … We are only able to maintain our level of living by making sure that Third World people live in grinding poverty."

"The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied."

"The government lied about Pearl Harbor. They knew the Japanese were going to attack. Government’s lied."

"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost."

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye."

"When [Obama’s] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli to visit Colonel Gadaffi with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."

"Racism is alive and well. Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run. No black man will ever be considered for president, no matter how hard you run Jesse [Jackson] and no black woman can ever be considered for anything outside what she can give with her body."

"America is still the No. 1 killer in the world. . . . We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns, and the training of professional killers . . . We bombed Cambodia, Iraq and Nicaragua, killing women and children while trying to get public opinion turned against Castro and Ghadhafi . . . We put [Nelson] Mandela in prison and supported apartheid the whole 27 years he was there. We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God."

"We supported Zionism shamelessly while ignoring the Palestinians and branding anybody who spoke out against it as being anti-Semitic. . . . We care nothing about human life if the end justifies the means. . . ."

"Jesus was a poor black man who lived in a country and who lived in a culture, that was controlled by rich white people! The Romans were rich. The Romans were Italians, which means they were European, which means they were white—and the Romans ran everything in Jesus’ country. It just came to me within the past few weeks, y’all, why so many folk are hatin’ on Barack Obama. He doesn’t fit the model!"

"Hillary is married to Bill and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t. Bill did us just like he did Monica Lewinsky..." (pantomiming a sexual act) "...He was riding dirty."

"Hillary ain’t had to work twice as hard just to get accepted by the rich white folk who run everything, or to get a passing grade when you know you are smarter than their C-students sitting in the White House. Hillary ain’t never had her own people say she wasn’t white enough!"

"Hillary was not a black boy raised in a single parent home! Barack was. Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people! Hillary can never know that! Hillary ain’t never been called a n****! Hillary has never had her people defined as nonpersons!"

...and he refers to this great nation as, "The US of KKKA."

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Super_Ludacris: "God DAMN the English language! :cmad:"
:(

[RockSP]

She's holding out for Commissioner of the NFL. That's her dream job.

That's a pretty strange transition...

[Tron5000]

That's a pretty strange transition...

Hey, that's what she has said. And from hearing her speak, she knows much more about the NFL and the game of football than most of the people in my section at the Georgia Dome.

Then again, it's kinda hard to be too knowledgeable about the game of football when your team doesn't actually play it...

[Super_Ludacris]

lol @ Condi Rice aka Bush's puppet and token black girl being a slam dunk candidate.

We've seen her take the stand for stuff like the 9/11 commission report. She would get destroyed in the debates. Hell the democratic winner could pick Kerry as a running mate and it would be a wrap.

I will be very suprised if McCain out of all people picks anyone from the Bush Administration to be involved in anything in his cabinet.

[Tron5000]

"Bush's puppet." That's cute.

[Super_Ludacris]

Super_Ludacris: "God DAMN the English language! :cmad:"
:(

Dont you have a UPS delivery guy to sign in? lol

[Super_Ludacris]

These statements don't "hurt my feelings." They infuriate me.



"God damn America – that’s in the Bible – for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating us citizens as less than human. God damn America ..."

"We cannot see how what we are doing is the same thing al-Qaida is doing under a different color flag ... And guess what else. If they don’t find them some weapons of mass destruction, they going to do just like the LAPD and plant them some weapons of mass destruction."

"We started the AIDS virus. … We are only able to maintain our level of living by making sure that Third World people live in grinding poverty."

"The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied."

"The government lied about Pearl Harbor. They knew the Japanese were going to attack. Government’s lied."

"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost."

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye."

"When [Obama’s] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli to visit Colonel Gadaffi with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."

"Racism is alive and well. Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run. No black man will ever be considered for president, no matter how hard you run Jesse [Jackson] and no black woman can ever be considered for anything outside what she can give with her body."

"America is still the No. 1 killer in the world. . . . We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns, and the training of professional killers . . . We bombed Cambodia, Iraq and Nicaragua, killing women and children while trying to get public opinion turned against Castro and Ghadhafi . . . We put [Nelson] Mandela in prison and supported apartheid the whole 27 years he was there. We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God."

"We supported Zionism shamelessly while ignoring the Palestinians and branding anybody who spoke out against it as being anti-Semitic. . . . We care nothing about human life if the end justifies the means. . . ."

"Jesus was a poor black man who lived in a country and who lived in a culture, that was controlled by rich white people! The Romans were rich. The Romans were Italians, which means they were European, which means they were white—and the Romans ran everything in Jesus’ country. It just came to me within the past few weeks, y’all, why so many folk are hatin’ on Barack Obama. He doesn’t fit the model!"

"Hillary is married to Bill and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t. Bill did us just like he did Monica Lewinsky..." (pantomiming a sexual act) "...He was riding dirty."

"Hillary ain’t had to work twice as hard just to get accepted by the rich white folk who run everything, or to get a passing grade when you know you are smarter than their C-students sitting in the White House. Hillary ain’t never had her own people say she wasn’t white enough!"

"Hillary was not a black boy raised in a single parent home! Barack was. Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people! Hillary can never know that! Hillary ain’t never been called a n****! Hillary has never had her people defined as nonpersons!"

...and he refers to this great nation as, "The US of KKKA."


I love this guy already lol

[Wilhelm-Scream]

"Hillary is married to Bill and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t. Bill did us just like he did Monica Lewinsky..." (pantomiming a sexual act) "...He was riding dirty."lol, any video footage of this one?

I don't think pantomiming sex acts makes Jesus happy.

[Super_Ludacris]

If you do find the clip, can you make into an Avatar? The comic potential is endless.

This Pastor needs a myspace.

[Kelly]

That's a pretty strange transition...


Not if you know her background......its actually an excellent transition. Read up on her, and you'll find out.

[Kelly]

I'm not saying she will do it. I was just adding to the speculation of who would help McCain the most in a general election. She would be, in my opinion, an excellent candidate with immense qualifications.

She's holding out for Commissioner of the NFL. That's her dream job.


IMO, the perfect running mate for McCain would have been Bloomberg, but that is not going to happen. I predict it will be Romney.

[KenK]

These statements don't "hurt my feelings." They infuriate me.

Truth hurts.

"God damn America – that’s in the Bible – for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating us citizens as less than human. God damn America ..."

"We cannot see how what we are doing is the same thing al-Qaida is doing under a different color flag ... And guess what else. If they don’t find them some weapons of mass destruction, they going to do just like the LAPD and plant them some weapons of mass destruction."

"We started the AIDS virus. … We are only able to maintain our level of living by making sure that Third World people live in grinding poverty."

"The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied."

"The government lied about Pearl Harbor. They knew the Japanese were going to attack. Government’s lied."

"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost."

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye."

"When [Obama’s] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli to visit Colonel Gadaffi with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."

"Racism is alive and well. Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run. No black man will ever be considered for president, no matter how hard you run Jesse [Jackson] and no black woman can ever be considered for anything outside what she can give with her body."

"America is still the No. 1 killer in the world. . . . We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns, and the training of professional killers . . . We bombed Cambodia, Iraq and Nicaragua, killing women and children while trying to get public opinion turned against Castro and Ghadhafi . . . We put [Nelson] Mandela in prison and supported apartheid the whole 27 years he was there. We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God."

"We supported Zionism shamelessly while ignoring the Palestinians and branding anybody who spoke out against it as being anti-Semitic. . . . We care nothing about human life if the end justifies the means. . . ."

"Jesus was a poor black man who lived in a country and who lived in a culture, that was controlled by rich white people! The Romans were rich. The Romans were Italians, which means they were European, which means they were white—and the Romans ran everything in Jesus’ country. It just came to me within the past few weeks, y’all, why so many folk are hatin’ on Barack Obama. He doesn’t fit the model!"

"Hillary is married to Bill and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t. Bill did us just like he did Monica Lewinsky..." (pantomiming a sexual act) "...He was riding dirty."

"Hillary ain’t had to work twice as hard just to get accepted by the rich white folk who run everything, or to get a passing grade when you know you are smarter than their C-students sitting in the White House. Hillary ain’t never had her own people say she wasn’t white enough!"

"Hillary was not a black boy raised in a single parent home! Barack was. Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people! Hillary can never know that! Hillary ain’t never been called a n****! Hillary has never had her people defined as nonpersons!"

...and he refers to this great nation as, "The US of KKKA."

I'll admit, some of this comes off like fanatical ranting, but a lot of it is stuff people have talked about for YEARS!!! A lot of things Americans have known about and insist on ignoring. A lot of the messes America gets into, it's because of their own duplicity. Sorry.

[Super_Ludacris]

Truth hurts.



I'll admit, some of this comes off like fanatical ranting, but a lot of it is stuff people have talked about for YEARS!!! A lot of things Americans have known about and insist on ignoring. A lot of the messes America gets into, it's because of their own duplicity. Sorry.

You should be sorry! Dont you know the Pastor's words are more damaging to the feelings of white people than the actual things hes speaking about! :cmad: Run! Scurry! Flee before the black man (extremely light skinned black man as well it should be noted) kills us all!:wow:

He's clearly worse than polio and our healthcare system cant handle anything worse! :cmad:

[kane9321]

These statements don't "hurt my feelings." They infuriate me.



"God damn America – that’s in the Bible – for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating us citizens as less than human. God damn America ..."

"We cannot see how what we are doing is the same thing al-Qaida is doing under a different color flag ... And guess what else. If they don’t find them some weapons of mass destruction, they going to do just like the LAPD and plant them some weapons of mass destruction."

"We started the AIDS virus. … We are only able to maintain our level of living by making sure that Third World people live in grinding poverty."

"The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied."

"The government lied about Pearl Harbor. They knew the Japanese were going to attack. Government’s lied."

"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost."

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye."

"When [Obama’s] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli to visit Colonel Gadaffi with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."

"Racism is alive and well. Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run. No black man will ever be considered for president, no matter how hard you run Jesse [Jackson] and no black woman can ever be considered for anything outside what she can give with her body."

"America is still the No. 1 killer in the world. . . . We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns, and the training of professional killers . . . We bombed Cambodia, Iraq and Nicaragua, killing women and children while trying to get public opinion turned against Castro and Ghadhafi . . . We put [Nelson] Mandela in prison and supported apartheid the whole 27 years he was there. We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God."

"We supported Zionism shamelessly while ignoring the Palestinians and branding anybody who spoke out against it as being anti-Semitic. . . . We care nothing about human life if the end justifies the means. . . ."

"Jesus was a poor black man who lived in a country and who lived in a culture, that was controlled by rich white people! The Romans were rich. The Romans were Italians, which means they were European, which means they were white—and the Romans ran everything in Jesus’ country. It just came to me within the past few weeks, y’all, why so many folk are hatin’ on Barack Obama. He doesn’t fit the model!"

"Hillary is married to Bill and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t. Bill did us just like he did Monica Lewinsky..." (pantomiming a sexual act) "...He was riding dirty."

"Hillary ain’t had to work twice as hard just to get accepted by the rich white folk who run everything, or to get a passing grade when you know you are smarter than their C-students sitting in the White House. Hillary ain’t never had her own people say she wasn’t white enough!"

"Hillary was not a black boy raised in a single parent home! Barack was. Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people! Hillary can never know that! Hillary ain’t never been called a n****! Hillary has never had her people defined as nonpersons!"

...and he refers to this great nation as, "The US of KKKA."


awesome..People have been stating this for years..whats your point
Some of this IS THE TRUTH and it hurts. Or is it That a BLACK MAN said this

[Tron5000]

lol, any video footage of this one?

I don't think pantomiming sex acts makes Jesus happy.

Yes, there is. Just youtube Jeremiah Wright. You'll find this, plus much, much more.

[terry78]

Honestly, while it can be viewed as a negative, I am actually glad this got out, as it forces Obama's hand to talk about race openly, something too many people tend to ignore around here.

[Tron5000]

I love this guy already lol

Then that, sir, speaks volumes of your character.

[Tron5000]

Honestly, while it can be viewed as a negative, I am actually glad this got out, as it forces Obama's hand to talk about race openly, something too many people tend to ignore around here.

"It can be viewed as a negative"? I honestly don't see any other way to view this. And I don't consider blatant, unabashed racist and anti-America rhetoric to be "a negative." It goes much deeper than that.

[Mr Sparkle]

"Bush's puppet." That's cute.

but strinkingly accurate.

[StorminNorman]

And????!!?!?!

So???!!!!!?!?!?

Those who hated Obama still do. Those who love him still do. Nothing has changed. Next week, there will be another scandal that the media will launch, most likely against Hillary. Just sit tight as the world turns.

The Polls say otherwise.

[Super_Ludacris]

but strinkingly accurate.

Sparkle....lines up the shot.....FTW.....BANG!

[Marv Albert] Yessss!!!![/Marv Albert]

[Tron5000]

Sparkle....lines up the shot.....FTW.....BANG!

[Marv Albert] Yessss!!!![/Marv Albert]

Oh, yeah. Sparkie's comment was quite profound. Guess I've been put in my place...