Discussion: Reverend Wright And The Fallout

[Mr Sparkle]

The Polls say otherwise.

sadly, they show how ignorant most people are.
I've said it with my country and now I apply it to yours.
people get the government that they deserve.

[Mr Sparkle]

Oh, yeah. Sparkie's comment was quite profound. Guess I've been put in my place...

so you think Rice is not beholden to the Bush admin.?
because she has shown herself to be more than once.
towing the party line if you will.

[StorminNorman]

lol @ Condi Rice aka Bush's puppet and token black girl being a slam dunk candidate.

We've seen her take the stand for stuff like the 9/11 commission report. She would get destroyed in the debates. Hell the democratic winner could pick Kerry as a running mate and it would be a wrap.

I will be very suprised if McCain out of all people picks anyone from the Bush Administration to be involved in anything in his cabinet.

Wait...John Kerry?

[StorminNorman]

sadly, they show how ignorant most people are.
I've said it with my country and now I apply it to yours.
people get the government that they deserve.

And I would side with the government we have over any other government in the world.

[Super_Ludacris]

Oh, yeah. Sparkie's comment was quite profound. Guess I've been put in my place...

I mean it was either that or have Jeremiah come down to your house and say hi. I mean you'd definetly stay in your place.

[StorminNorman]

IMO, the perfect running mate for McCain would have been Bloomberg, but that is not going to happen. I predict it will be Romney.

People overrate Bloomberg badly. He is not a viable Presidential candidate. He is not a man that offers any candidate anything. Outside of funds.

Romney would be among McCain's best picks at this point though, you are correct.

[Mr Sparkle]

And I would side with the government we have over any other government in the world.

then you are a fool, other countries have much better governments.
not mine, of course, but that doesn't make me blind to the effectiveness of governing bodies.

[Tron5000]

so you think Rice is not beholden to the Bush admin.?
because she has shown herself to be more than once.
towing the party line if you will.

Do I think that someone in the president's administration backs that president and shares many of his views? Of course. The same is true of any member of any presidential administration.

[Mr Sparkle]

Do I think that someone in the president's administration backs that president and shares many of his views? Of course. The same is true of any member of any presidential administration.

that's not what I meant.
I meant, as "puppets" go, would her actions qualify her as such?

[Super_Ludacris]

Wait...John Kerry?

Shoot, against Rice? You put Al Franken against here and he wins lol

[kane9321]

Truth hurts don it.The only thing I'm not too cool about are the "AIDS" comments,but wait didnt "my american government" start the "Tuskegee syphilis experiment"...sooo I wouldnt put it past them..for "AIDS" either.....I'm getting pissed now

attica attica

[StorminNorman]

then you are a fool, other countries have much better governments.
not mine, of course, but that doesn't make me blind to the effectiveness of governing bodies.

I disagree entirely. While I have great disagreement with some of the decisions this government has taken, overall it has done me and my family a great amount of good. And those disagreements I do find myself having all have the ability to be solved within the system we have in place.

[StorminNorman]

Shoot, against Rice? You put Al Franken against here and he wins lol

No, no.

[Mr Sparkle]

I disagree entirely. While I have great disagreement with some of the decisions this government has taken, overall it has done me and my family a great amount of good. And those disagreements I do find myself having all have the ability to be solved within the system we have in place.

you're entitled to. but, look at your country. For the " greatest country in the world" it has too may shortcomings compared to other, much smaller industrialized countries.

[StorminNorman]

you're entitled to. but, look at your country. For the " greatest country in the world" it has too may shortcomings compared to other, much smaller industrialized countries.

I see the shortcomings, but I have yet to see a government that could better address them than the one we have now. Yes, other countries have had better success with their people - but all countries are different. What works here will not necessarily work over there.

[Mr Sparkle]

I see the shortcomings, but I have yet to see a government that could better address them than the one we have now. Yes, other countries have had better success with their people - but all countries are different. What works here will not necessarily work over there.

the people if your country are, IMO too un-educated for the first world, let alone the greatest country in the world.
they can't afford to get sick and are in debt all the time, houses are obscene expensive...I could go on, but why?

[StorminNorman]

the people if your country are, IMO too un-educated for the first world, let alone the greatest country in the world.
they can't afford to get sick and are in debt all the time, houses are obscene expensive...I could go on, but why?

You grossly exaggerate the reality.

[terry78]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080319/ap_on_el_pr/cheney_campaign

Now Cheney throws his two cents in.

[Mr Sparkle]

You grossly exaggerate the reality.

you're not part of that reality, how can you presume I exaggerate it?

[StorminNorman]

you're not part of that reality, how can you presume I exaggerate it?

Well you state that the people of my country.

The people of my country? I would certainly be among those. And if I am not, then certainly I would know those people. While, yes, there are those struggling - and more facing that same predicament every day because of the currently slowing economy, that is not a reflection of the country as a whole. A four,three, two - hell, a year ago the economy was very strong. We can, and will - eventually - reach that point again as we wade out this hardship. The government we have is a reason we can do this.

[Super_Ludacris]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080319/ap_on_el_pr/cheney_campaign

Now Cheney throws his two cents in.


Well if anyone knows how to keep his friends in check, its Cheney. I mean he shots them in the face for kicks.

[Matt]

Yeah seriously, by the company you keep?

Jman lets say you went to high school and would talk to some kid in class and he became a seriel killer. I guess that means your a bad person right? By your logic?

The comparrison is not similiar as Jman did not accept moral guidance from the future serial killer. Furthermore, Jman was not watching him kill people and continuing to be friends with him. Obama listened to this man's hate speech and continued to attend his sermons.

[SuBe]

you're entitled to. but, look at your country. For the " greatest country in the world" it has too may shortcomings compared to other, much smaller industrialized countries.
Care to name a few?

[Mr Sparkle]

Well you state that the people of my country.

The people of my country? I would certainly be among those. And if I am not, then certainly I would know those people. While, yes, there are those struggling - and more facing that same predicament every day because of the currently slowing economy, that is not a reflection of the country as a whole. A four,three, two - hell, a year ago the economy was very strong. We can, and will - eventually - reach that point again as we wade out this hardship. The government we have is a reason we can do this.

you said yourself about people's penchant for theatrics.
that's not the reaction of educated, intelligent people is it?
if you believe that economy comes from " strength from whithin" you're in for a rather strong wake up call.
the government you have is the reason you are in these hardships.

Care to name a few?

already did.

[Mr Sparkle]

The comparrison is not similiar as Jman did not accept moral guidance from the future serial killer. Furthermore, Jman was not watching him kill people and continuing to be friends with him. Obama listened to this man's hate speech and continued to attend his sermons.

have you, Matt not accepted moral guidance from someone you don't agree with on everything?:huh:

[Super_Ludacris]

Care to name a few?

The Swiss Frank is stronger than our Dollar, China has enough land and labour to industrilize itself (hence why our government feels uneasy about. That Communist business is an addage lol), we borrow oil from the Middle East and you wanna act cocky as a porn star talking about name a few? Our Super power ranking has taken a beating economy wise. (Seriously, **** this past Monday :(. I just really really hope we secure that UK account at work )

[Matt]

have you, Matt not accepted moral guidance from someone you don't agree with on everything?:huh:

I accept moral guidance from a priest with whom I disagree on a few minor things with. I eat meat on fridays. I do not believe using condoms during sex is a sin. However, those are comparing apples and oranges to a man spouting off hate speech. I certainly would not have a KKK leader baptize my child.

[StorminNorman]

you said yourself about people's penchant for theatrics.
that's not the reaction of educated, intelligent people is it?
if you believe that economy comes from " strength from whithin" you're in for a rather strong wake up call.
the government you have is the reason you are in these hardships.


People of all walks of life find themselves more drawn to theatricality than true substance. Its true in America, its true in England, its true in China, I could go on... Its certainly not a plague isolated to the good ol'USA.

A strong economy relies on both internal strength and the willingness to cooperate externally. I know this, the government knows this.

The government may in fact be the reason America has lot a bit of its luster, of late - but it is also the reason we were and, arguably, still are the worlds greatest power. It is the reason we will return to that title, if we have lost it. America is running through a rough patch, however we will persevere, in part due to our current system.

[Mr Sparkle]

People of all walks of life find themselves more drawn to theatricality than true substance. Its true in America, its true in England, its true in China, I could go on... Its certainly not a plague isolated to the good ol'USA.

A strong economy relies on both internal strength and the willingness to cooperate externally. I know this, the government knows this.

The government may in fact be the reason America has lot a bit of its luster, of late - but it is also the reason we were and, arguably, still are the worlds greatest power. It is the reason we will return to that title, if we have lost it. America is running through a rough patch, however we will persevere, in part due to our current system.

sorry, but I've always said that you should read up on history and learn from it.
the US is far from " returning" to being the world's greatest power, it's already sick and on it's way to being deposed.
blame economic factors, blame who you want.

[terry78]

Many times those were statements lifted out of the context of a larger sermon. Sermons, after all, are rarely written word for word by pastors like Rev. Wright, who are delivering them extemporaneously, and caught up in the emotion of the moment. There are things that sometimes get said, that if you put them on paper and looked at them in print, you'd say 'Well, I didn't mean to say it quite like that.'"

Later, he defended Wright's anger, too:

"As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say 'That's a terrible statement!' ... I grew up in a very segregated South. And I think that you have to cut some slack -- and I'm gonna be probably the only conservative in America who's gonna say something like this, but I'm just tellin' you -- we've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names..."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/19/huckabee-defends-rev-jer_n_92346.html

-------------------

Huckabee's comments on the issue.

[Tron5000]

Many times those were statements lifted out of the context of a larger sermon. Sermons, after all, are rarely written word for word by pastors like Rev. Wright, who are delivering them extemporaneously, and caught up in the emotion of the moment. There are things that sometimes get said, that if you put them on paper and looked at them in print, you'd say 'Well, I didn't mean to say it quite like that.'"

Later, he defended Wright's anger, too:

"As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say 'That's a terrible statement!' ... I grew up in a very segregated South. And I think that you have to cut some slack -- and I'm gonna be probably the only conservative in America who's gonna say something like this, but I'm just tellin' you -- we've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names..."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/19/huckabee-defends-rev-jer_n_92346.html

-------------------

Huckabee's comments on the issue.

I fail to see in what "context" Jeremiah Wright's racist, anti-American vitriol should be tolerated.

[RockSP]

Morning after the race speech: Obama's broken pact with white voters (http://trainwreckpolitics.com/2008/03/19/morning-after-the-race-speech-obamas-broken-pact-with-white-voters/)

Morning after the race speech: Obama’s broken pact with white voters
By Griffin · March 19th, 2008

With a day’s worth of distance and perspective now, I stand behind the assertion I made yesterday that for everyone under the age of 40, ”A More Perfect Union” was the great American speech on race of our lifetime. 100 years from now, it will be the jumping off point for historians looking to assess the progress of race relations in early 21st century America.

But with that said, Obama isn’t running for president of the Smithsonian, he’s running for President of the United States, and the more immediate question is how the speech will hold up politically. Just a few scattered thoughts on the speech, the events of the past week, and what it all says about our great nation:

For many white voters, I think the Rev. Jeremiah Wright controversy represents a break in the unspoken pact they had with Barack Obama. The pact was, we won’t hold your race against you if you don’t hold our race against us the way other black leaders (Sharpton, Jackson, Farrakhan, etc.) do. And for most of the campaign, Obama has held up his end of that bargain.

When Bill Clinton in South Carolina compared Obama’s candidacy to Jesse Jackson’s–- realizing the second the words were out of his mouth that the only similarity between the two was the color of their skin–- Obama didn’t call the statement racist. He said Clinton was being “historically inaccurate.” When Geraldine Ferraro essentially called Obama America’s affirmative action hire and then blamed the blacklash against her on Obama himself and (somehow) the fact that she was white, Obama didn’t characterize her statements as racist. He said that she was expressing viewpoints forged in the “old politics” of the 1960s, ’70s, and ’80s. In fact, there hasn’t been a single incident in this campaign, or any of his previous campaigns, where Barack Obama has accused someone of racism, despite numerous opportunities to do so.

But when white voters saw the clips of Rev. Wright railing against America’s racism the way many white Southern Baptist preachers rail against homosexuality and abortion, there was a certain level of shock. Wait a minute, they thought, Barack Obama promised not to hold our race against us if we didn’t hold his against him. So what’s he doing going to a black church for 20 years that treats racism like it’s still a problem in our society, and that has the audacity to still be upset about it?

I read a blog comment the other day by someone who said something like, “Listening to Rev. Wright speak makes you question whether Barack Obama believes there is something fundamentally flawed about America.” That’s the whole point! There is! And no one understands this better than the black community. Could Obama be any clearer about the fact that there is indeed something fundamentally flawed (fundamentally, not irreparably) about America than when he refers to racism as the Original Sin of our democracy?

You can’t have a country built on the institution of slavery, founded by men who believed that ownership of human beings was an acceptable practice, torn in half by a civil war, put back together and then nearly torn in half again 100 years later by Jim Crow, a country that has essentially put Band-Aids over the problem if not outright ignored it for the last 40 years, where yesterday for the first time in most of our lives a major American figure gave a speech on race that was more than pandering and platitudes, and say there is nothing fundamentally flawed about that country.

And this type of America-through-rose-colored-glasses reaction just proves Wright’s point– that most white Americans, like Hillary Clinton, will never know what it means to be black in the United States of America. Wright’s controversial comments were inflammatory, divisive, and at points ridiculous, but to dismiss them as baseless is an entirely unsympathetic misunderstanding of the black American experience.

I read an op-ed by conservative Pat Buchanan yesterday that illustrated the distance between white perceptions of race relations and the black reality (try not to chuckle at his throwback use of the word “Negroes”):

"That Wright is a revered preacher in black America also tells us that, far from coming together, we Americans are further apart than we were in the 1950s, when Negroes could be described as Christian, conservative and patriotic. Malcolm X and Elijah Muhammad did not speak for black America then. Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young and Dr. Martin Luther King did. But Jeremiah Wright makes Stokely Carmichael and Rap Brown sound like the Mills Brothers."

The implication is that while “Negroes” used to be Christian, conservative, and patriotic, a collective 20 seconds of video by one black preacher in Chicago-– trumping all other evidence to the contrary (such as the fact that blacks attend church and serve in the military at higher proportional rates than whites)–- shows us that this is no longer the case.

Nevermind the obvious racism of Buchanan taking the words or actions of one black person and equating them to the entire community–- which is the reason most black people spend the 6 o’clock local news hour hoping the criminals in today’s stories aren’t black, and which is the reason why no matter what Barack Obama does he will be unable to distance himself in the minds of many white voters from men like Wright and Farrakhan (they have the same color skin, they must all secretly think alike).

The real flaw in Buchanan’s argument is that he apparently believes the measured, methodical, “patriotic” reaction to racism of Martin Luther King and Roy Wilkins was the right one, the natural one. According to Buchanan, these men spoke for black America. Whereas the more visceral, angered reactions of Malcolm X and Stokely Carmichael were wrong, unnatural, “unpatriotic.” These men were the aberration in black America.

But the truth is that the Malcolm Xs and the Stokely Carmichaels did in fact speak for much of black America, and their take on combatting racism was every bit as valid (not nearly as effective, but every bit as valid) as Martin Luther King’s. In fact, what people fail to remember is that Martin Luther King was seen by many blacks– especially those in non-Southern urban industrial centers like Detroit, Chicago, and Los Angeles–- as an overly conciliatory, lay-down-and-take-it pacifist. King was as unpopular in some segments of the black community back then as he was in segments of the white community.

What people fail to remember is that King’s strategy of nonviolent resistance wasn’t inevitable. It wasn’t the black community’s natural reaction to racism, not even in King’s then-hometown of Montgomery. It had to be taught church-by-church, practiced meeting-by-meeting, and demonstrated in action boycott-by-boycott, march-by-march.

In other words, King’s strategy of nonviolence won the day because of the hard work of one-community-at-a-time organizing that he and other Southern black leaders put into it, not because getting hit with firehoses and attacked with dogs and lynched in front yards and not striking back in anger is the natural thing to do. King didn’t speak for black America, he spoke for the black American majority that he built through a decade of work.

But that doesn’t make King’s reaction to racism more valid than Malcolm X’s or Stokely Carmichael’s. If those men had had the communications and organizing skills of Martin Luther King, America could easily be a very different place.

Likewise, the offending sermons of Rev. Wright and his take on America’s history of racism and entitlement were, in Obama’s words, “divisive” and “profoundly distorted.” But to say that Wright’s reaction to racism is less valid than Barack Obama’s is a mistake.

The people who are tripping over themselves to pass judgment on Wright-– the mostly rich, mostly white news anchors, talk show hosts, and pundits-– the people who are purposefully blowing the story out of proportion, deliberately working their audiences into a frenzy, the people who are now equating Wright with Hitler–- equating an American, Christian pastor to Hitler-– are the very people Wright was referring to in his Christmas sermon. They’re all of course free to say and think what they want about Jeremiah Wright and Barack Obama, but they can never and will never know what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture controlled by rich, white people.

For those still struggling to understand it, here’s a small clue: What it means is that while John McCain gets to spend a week doing photo-ops with world leaders, beefing up his foreign policy credentials, doing fundraisers in Europe; and Hillary Clinton gets to spend a week campaigning around Pennsylvania, giving speeches on health care and the economy, working behind the scenes to woo superdelegates (yesterday, she snagged her first two since Super Tuesday); Barack Obama’s campaign has to stop dead in its tracks for a week–- and probably more–- to give interviews and speeches about the color of his skin and the history of race relations in America.

[C.F. Kane]

After this, I'm behind him all the way. I feel like he was addressing the nation as adults, which is refreshing in politics.

[Marx]

After this, I'm behind him all the way. I feel like he was addressing the nation as adults, which is refreshing in politics.

He addressed it only after he had no other choice. How is that refreshing? It was just days ago that he claimed to have never heard these comments before, then in the speech he admitted to hearing them before. :confused:

[Superman4ever]

I thought it was a great speech given with honest conviction. It not only tackled the Wright issue but, more importantly, was a serious discussion on race.

[bell110]

^ that last paragraph is sad but true. Imagine how divided this country will become if he actually wins the presidency now.

[Marx]

^ that last paragraph is sad but true. Imagine how divided this country will become if he actually wins the presidency now.

It does make you wonder. Although, personally, I knew it was only a matter of time before this issue would come front and center.

[Superman4ever]

gTFLOu8fjxU&eurl=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/19/huckabee-defends-rev-jer_n_92346.html

Wow for Huckabee to say "cut some slack" is monumental. I'm very, very impressed.

[Memphis Slim]

Obama Campaign Removes New Black Panther Party Endorsement From Web Site (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/19/obama-web-site-still-carries-new-black-panther-party-endorsement/)


Barack Obama’s campaign has removed an endorsement by the New Black Panther Party from its Web site, one day after the Illinois senator delivered a speech calling for improved race relations in America.
“The page in question has been removed from our campaign Web site,” Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor told FOXNews.com after inquiries about the endorsement. “It’s our policy with any content generated by a group that advocates violence.”

The blogosphere was buzzing Wednesday about whether his campaign planned to remove the Panther posting.:whatever:

The New Black Panthers, who inherited their name from the Black Panther Party of the 1960s, had the page on the Obama campaign’s public forums. The group’s message said it is backing Obama because he “represents ‘positive change’ for all of America. Obama will stir the ‘Melting Pot’ into a better ‘Molten America.’”

Obama spokeswoman Tiffany Edwards said before the campaign removed the endorsement that that section of the Web site “has nothing to do with us.”

“People can form their own groups,” she told FOXNews.com. “It’s not something that the campaign — it’s not something that we’ve done.”
The NBPP, which has been led since 2001 by Malik Zulu Shabbazz, is identified by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a tolerance education organization, as an extremist hate group. The Anti-Defamation League calls NBPP “the largest organized anti-Semitic black militant group in America. … Under Shabazz, the group continues to organize demonstrations across the country that blend inflammatory bigotry with calls for black empowerment and civil rights.”
The NBPP lists on its Web site a 10-point plan for full employment for black Americans as well as housing, education, free health care and an end to the death penalty.

In addition, it demands slavery reparations, the release of all black prisoners from American jails, trials of blacks only by all-black juries, an end to all black cooperation with police departments, exemption for blacks from the all-volunteer U.S. military and a separate country for African-Americans.
“We believe that Black People should not be forced to fight in the military service to defend a racist government that holds us captive and does not protect us. We will not fight and kill other people of color in the world who, like Black People, are being victimized by the white racist government of America,” the Web site reads.
“As our political objective, we want NATIONAL LIBERATION in a separate state or territory of our own, here or elsewhere, ‘a liberated zone’ (’New Africa’ or Africa), and a plebiscite to be held throughout the BLACK NATION in which only we will be allowed to participate for the purposes of determining our will and DIVINE destiny as a people. FREE THE LAND!” another point states.

The NBPP also calls for an end to “the capitalistic domination of Africa in all of its forms: imperialism, criminal settler colonialism, neo-colonialism, racism, sexism, zionism, Apartheid and artificial borders.”
Obama has been trying to recover from claims he has not sufficiently denounced his controversial pastor and spiritual adviser, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., who has made anti-American statements. On Tuesday, Obama gave a speech saying he disagreed with much of Wright’s positions on U.S. policy, but he can understand the roots of his rage.
Shabazz told World Net Daily, which broke news of the Web page on Wednesday, that he likes the way Obama responded to the charges about Wright.

“I think the way Obama responded to the attack on him and the attempt to sabotage his campaign shows true leadership and character. He had a chance to denounce his pastor and he didn’t fall for the bait. He stood up and addressed real issues of racial discord,” Shabazz said.
The backing of the NBPP highlighted concerns that Obama may not have done enough to divorce himself from radical groups that view him as an opportunity to advance black causes.

“Maybe Mr. Obama has not heard the ‘New Black Panthers’ say anything untoward,” wrote Steve Gilbert of Sweetness-Light.com (http://elections.foxnews.com/wp-admin/But%20maybe%20Mr.%20Obama%20has%20not%20heard%20th e%20%E2%80%9CNew%20Black%20Panthers%E2%80%9D%20say %20anything%20untoward.), playing on earlier claims by Obama about his pastor. “Or perhaps he thinks we need to understand where they are coming from.”
But Vietor said Obama has done plenty to try to get past race, including giving a “thoughtful speech” on race relations.

“The fact that you guys decided to highlight one of million user-generated (pages) the day after (Senator) Obama gave a thoughtful speech … speaks more about the controversy you’re trying to create than the campaign,” he said before the campaign’s decision to remove the page.
__________________________________________________ __


You know that this was last thing Obama needed!! :woot: I know he woke up this saying " @!*&$#!! I can't get a break!"

Now the he might lose some of the inner city vote.... Appearing to be a "sell-out", for doing the right thing.

[RockSP]

[Now the he might lose some of the inner city vote.... Appearing to be a "sell-out", for doing the right thing.

...for doing the right thing to get elected, you mean...

[terry78]

This brotha is gonna be stressed out immensely before this is all over. White people want him to do ****, black people want him to do ****.....no matter what, some section of the populous is pissed.

[RockSP]

^^Hopefully he realized stress comes with the job.

[Franklin Richards]

Really. I always like to look at the pics of Presidents when they are elected and when they leave office.


Yeesh!


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Super_Ludacris]

This brotha is gonna be stressed out immensely before this is all over. White people want him to do ****, black people want him to do ****.....no matter what, some section of the populous is pissed.

And I felt like he addressed this all in the speech yesterday but god damn people dont listen....

[Memphis Slim]

...for doing the right thing to get elected, you mean...


See........

[Memphis Slim]

And I felt like he addressed this all in the speech yesterday but god damn people dont listen....


He didn't say anything.

This issue deserved a press conference. But wouldn't let them ask him the tough questions.

[RockSP]

He didn't say anything.

:dry:

[Kelly]

He gave a heartfelt speech, that was in reality.... a political speech given because of a political problem.

The question, IMO, that a lot of people have that has not been answered is...

During those 20 years, did he ever confront his pastor about the hate speech he gave at times from his pulpit....comments that he himself called "wrong and divisive"

I think many, myself included are seeing a problem of....

qui tacet consentire videtur in this situation.....

[terry78]

I'll level with you, what that pastor said, a lot of black people have heard among other black people, whether in public or in private. And we don't usually chime in about it being wrong, because....we just don't. It's difficult to explain. The pastor at the church my parents go to that I attend sometimes, he didn't say it as madcap as Wright did, but he has gone off on rants about white people before.

[Kelly]

I'll level with you, what that pastor said, a lot of black people have heard among other black people, whether in public or in private. And we don't usually chime in about it being wrong, because....we just don't. It's difficult to explain. The pastor at the church my parents go to that I attend sometimes, he didn't say it as madcap as Wright did, but he has gone off on rants about white people before.


Well, then I guess...........as my President, I would want a man that thought those words were "wrong and divisive..." would be man enough to tell his pastor how he felt.

Now, I DON'T KNOW THAT HE DIDN'T.....but he has not said as much.

[Super_Ludacris]

I'll level with you, what that pastor said, a lot of black people have heard among other black people, whether in public or in private. And we don't usually chime in about it being wrong, because....we just don't. It's difficult to explain. The pastor at the church my parents go to that I attend sometimes, he didn't say it as madcap as Wright did, but he has gone off on rants about white people before.

Because we dont feel it is 100% wrong.

[RockSP]

Because we dont feel it is 100% wrong.

Because it's not.

And let's not pretend other groups of people don't talk about blacks or whoever else doesn't look like them when they are amongst themselves...

[Super_Ludacris]

Exactly and it aint just black people who feel that way about what he said. The International community feels the same way (especially in our involvement in the middle east and israel right or wrong)

[Kelly]

Because we dont feel it is 100% wrong.

But Obama DID SAY, that the pastor's words were "wrong and divisive"....so either he is not telling the truth in this speech, or he is......which is it?

And if he is telling the truth....my only question is.......did he ever have this conservation with his pastor......and if not, then as the leader of this nation does he plan on standing behind his words that he spoke in that speech....if as President, if he is home and sitting in the pew as a guest speaker named Jeremiah Wright speaks from the pulpit, and begins this type of speech again.....will Obama as President speak up then? or will he do what he has, I guess, done in the past and say nothing...????


qui tacet consentire videtur

I want to believe that he will be a President that will, yes, listen to the righteous anger of different groups who are hurt and ignored in our society TODAY, and speak up for those that have a small voice.....BUT be willing to also speak up when those that speak words that he calls "wrong and divisive" use their role as a leader to spread not righteous anger, but hate.

[Matt]

Because it's not.

And let's not pretend other groups of people don't talk about blacks or whoever else doesn't look like them when they are amongst themselves...

Exactly and it aint just black people who feel that way about what he said. The International community feels the same way (especially in our involvement in the middle east and israel right or wrong)

I don't. Why don't you guys quit making dumb assumptions about white people. Racism works both ways, y'know.

[Lightning Strykez!]

People overrate Bloomberg badly. He is not a viable Presidential candidate. He is not a man that offers any candidate anything. Outside of funds.


I think you have something against short people. I reject and denounce your statement! :mad:

[Super_Ludacris]

He was wrong for addressing it the way he did in a church but all the things he said, are stuff that people feel are a point. And he did acknowledge that.

[Franklin Richards]

I just hate people.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Matt]

I think you have something against short people. I reject and denounce your statement! :mad:

Your avatar portrays a certain group of people in a stereotypical, offensive way! I demand you change it! It is practically a caricature!...That's right!!! It is offensive to people with glowing eye syndrome everywhere! Everyone knows their eyes do not light up that brightly! Lightning Strykez!, doesn't care about the handicapped! :cmad:

[Matt]

I just hate people.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

You know what would be awesome? If you did the Aunt Petunia thing again. 20 bucks says with all the new faces around, if you got the right people in on it, you could do it exactly the same. Same name, same picture, same everything. That would be great. :woot:

I know it's off topic, but I've been meaning to suggest that to you for awhile.

[Franklin Richards]

I've been trying to get the mods to change my name back for about a year. Heh. No dice.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[RockSP]

I don't. Why don't you guys quit making dumb assumptions about white people. Racism works both ways, y'know.

:whatever:Yeah you encompass all white people.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Lightning Strykez! doesn't care about the handicapped! :cmad:

But...I don't. :(

[Franklin Richards]

Lightning Strykez! doesn't care about Canadians.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Matt]

I've been trying to get the mods to change my name back for about a year. Heh. No dice.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

I'll see what I can do. :o

[Kelly]

I hate people that are not Irish,French, Danish and Cherokee.....*smiles*

[Matt]

But...I don't. :(

Who am I to judge? I park in handicapped spots, kick people in wheel chairs down steps and steal candy from blind kids. I don't need the candy...I mean, I have my own...but their tears amuse me.

[Super_Ludacris]

:whatever:Yeah you encompass all white people.

Boondocks....

[Matt]

:whatever:Yeah you encompass all white people.

And a few racist jack asses do not encompass all white people as you seem to think either. Most white people do not harbor a secret hatred towards black people.

[Franklin Richards]

Quite frankly, I'm against midgets.


They could all be replaced in movies with puppets.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[RockSP]

And a few racist jack asses do not encompass all white people as you seem to think either. Most white people do not harbor a secret hatred towards black people.

I never said all white people are racist. But I'm not going to pretend we are living in a "post-race" society either, like some people have fooled themselves into believing.

[Tron5000]

I hate people that are not Irish,French, Danish and Cherokee.....*smiles*

You must not have many friends then. Sucks to be you, man.

[Kelly]

You must not have many friends then. Sucks to be you, man.

I have tons of friends.....they are all just like me......:oand um, I am hoping that you would read the sarcasm in that post, even w/o a smilie......


hmmmmmmm........

Sucks to have no sense of humor.....:cwink:

[Tron5000]

I have tons of friends.....they are all just like me......:oand um, I am hoping that you would read the sarcasm in that post, even w/o a smilie......


hmmmmmmm........

Sucks to have no sense of humor.....:cwink:

It does suck, as I was just messing with you. It would be very hard to fill out a group of friends adhering to your previously-described parameters involving racial compilation.

Therein lied the joke. Or so I thought. I fail at life.

[Matt]

I never said all white people are racist. But I'm not going to pretend we are living in a "post-race" society either, like some people have fooled themselves into believing.

Of course things aren't perfect. They never will be. But its not nearly as bad as people like you and Pastor Wright making it out to be.

[Tron5000]

Of course things aren't perfect. They never will be. But its not nearly as bad as people like you and Pastor Wright making it out to be.

I'm not so sure about that. I live in and am from the South, and the same can be said for my entire family. According to many people (on this board), the fact that we live in and are from the South means that we are bigoted racists.

Damn, and I never knew that. I'm a racist and I didn't even know it? The problem must be much worse than I previously thought.

[Kelly]

It does suck, as I was just messing with you. It would be very hard to fill out a group of friends adhering to your previously-described parameters involving racial compilation.

Therein lied the joke. Or so I thought. I fail at life.

Yes, and I'm still messin' with ya.....lol......:cwink::oldrazz:

[Tron5000]

Yes, and I'm still messin' with ya.....lol......:cwink::oldrazz:

Now I've done it. I've failed at life twice in the same night. I can only accept so much failure before the pain must come to an end.

[RockSP]

Of course things aren't perfect. They never will be. But its not nearly as bad as people like you and Pastor Wright making it out to be.

:huh: Me and Pastor Wright? You're really reaching now...

He and I are drinking buddies suddenly?

[Arc-Light]

I hate people that are not Irish,French, Danish and Cherokee.....*smiles*

woohooo................

[Zen]

I'm not so sure about that. I live in and am from the South, and the same can be said for my entire family. According to many people (on this board), the fact that we live in and are from the South means that we are bigoted racists.

Damn, and I never knew that. I'm a racist and I didn't even know it? The problem must be much worse than I previously thought.
every post you make is bigoted and filled with racist acid to burn the faces of indians and blacks...

im tired of it, you should have been banned a looooong time ago... for greatness!

:liz:

[Tron5000]

every post you make is bigoted and filled with racist acid to burn the faces of indians and blacks...

im tired of it, you should have been banned a looooong time ago... for greatness!

:liz:

I am the Tyranny of Evil Men. Fear me.


Unless you're the shepherd. Then I guess you got me beat.

[Goddessreicho]

This is from Mike Huckabee on the pulpit speech...

And one other thing I think we’ve gotta remember. As easy as it is for those of us who are white, to look back and say “That’s a terrible statement!”…I grew up in a very segregated south. And I think that you have to cut some slack — and I’m gonna be probably the only Conservative in America who’s gonna say something like this, but I’m just tellin’ you — we’ve gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told “you have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can’t sit out there with everyone else. There’s a separate waiting room in the doctor’s office. Here’s where you sit on the bus…” And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.

Needless to say, I am surprised. Huckabee has shown himself to be a down home kinda guy, but for him to actually support Wright more than Obama, wow...just wow.

[ShadowBoxing]

These statements don't "hurt my feelings." They infuriate me.



"God damn America – that’s in the Bible – for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating us citizens as less than human. God damn America ..."

America does some sh***y things, and black people have a right to be mad at a nation that institutionalized slavery and genocide, get over it.

[Tron5000]

America does some sh***y things, and black people have a right to be mad at a nation that institutionalized slavery and genocide, get over it.

I have nothing to get over. It's apparently other people who need to "get over it."

If America is so horrible, can you please inform me of in which country you would rather reside, and how I may financially contribute to make this a reality?

[Excel]

Easy for you to say; yall werent ****in slaves.

[Matt]

Easy for you to say; yall werent ****in slaves.

Neither were you.

[Excel]

Black people were, and thats who he just said needs to "get over it".

Come on Matt, we disagree a lot but your better than that :up:

[Mr Sparkle]

I accept moral guidance from a priest with whom I disagree on a few minor things with. I eat meat on fridays. I do not believe using condoms during sex is a sin. However, those are comparing apples and oranges to a man spouting off hate speech. I certainly would not have a KKK leader baptize my child.

I think I asked a very specific question.
and could we maybe tone down the KKK comparison?
because if he is not unlike a KKK leader, his followers including Obama are all confirmed racists.

[Excel]

Please, reality check. We would know by now if he was a racist, he is running against a CLINTON. They would haev SOMEONE saying it.

[Matt]

Better than what? Not a sinlge black person alive was a slave in America. Slavery was a horrible thing, but to sit around and ***** about something that no one who has lived in the past three to four generations has experienced is ridiculous. It is as ridiculous as a Jewish person was *****ing about slavery in Eygpt.

And yeah, treatment of black people afterwards up until the 60s, also horrible. But things ARE better now. When my family first moved to America, none of them could get jobs because they were Italian and were often discriminated against because they were Catholic. I'm not sitting around complaining. And no, I'm not comparing that to what black people suffered through. But things are better now. We can either sit around and complain about what was or try to move on and make a better future for all of us. I can guarantee this much though, Pastor Wright's hate speech solves nothing. All it does is ensure that the racial divide grows even larger and makes it even more difficult to move on as a society. We need to stop focusing on how different we all are because of our past or skin color or whatever and move on.

[Matt]

I think I asked a very specific question.
and could we maybe tone down the KKK comparison?
because if he is not unlike a KKK leader, his followers including Obama are all confirmed racists.

I answered your question and no, I won't tone it down. You can make whatever assumptions you'd like about his followers. The fact is PASTOR WRIGHT, the individual's hate speech is on par with what a KKK leader says at their rallies.

[Excel]

Better than what? Not a sinlge black person alive was a slave in America. Slavery was a horrible thing, but to sit around and ***** about something that no one who has lived in the past three to four generations has experience is ridiculous. It is as ridiculous as a Jewish person was *****ing about slavery in Eygpt. And yeah, treatment of black people afterwards up until the 60s, also horrible. But things ARE better now. When my family first moved to America, none of them could get jobs because they were Italian and were often discriminated against because they were Catholic. I'm not sitting around complaining. And no, I'm not comparing that to what black people suffered through. But things are better now. We can either sit around and complain about what was or try to move on and make a better future for all of us. I can guarantee this much though, Pastor Wright's hate speech solves nothing. All it does is ensure that the racial divide grows even larger and makes it even more difficult to move on as a society. We need to stop focusing on how different we all are because of our past or skin color or whatever and move on.

Of course things are better now, I dont see any rallys of black people marching around or that ****. That dont mean we aint senseative to the past. It doesnt mean **** that we personally werent in it, its the damned most degrading feeling in the whole world; its like telling jews to get over wwll. It aint to easy forget, ever. White people everywhere used to make us their *****es because we were black. Yeah, I dont hold it against white people hell I am married to a white woman, but dont gimme that "you werent a slave" crap. Matt you arent black as far as I know so dont try and defend someone saying get it over it cause it your place. You dont see me telling white people to get over white folk murdered by black wannabe gangster thugs cause it aint my place, and this aint yours.

Pastor Wrights opinions are a joke, we get it and we know it. But use your damn head, if Obama was a racist WE WOULD KNOW BY NOW.

Nobody, not even jack nicholson could keep up thios act of peacemaker as long and as convincingly as Obama has and not be sincere.

[Matt]

Of course things are better now, I dont see any rallys of black people marching around or that ****. That dont mean we aint senseative to the past. It doesnt mean **** that we personally werent in it, its the damned most degrading feeling in the whole world; its like telling jews to get over wwll. It aint to easy forget, ever.

No one is asking you to forget. All anyone is saying is do not use a horrible atrocity of the past (that no one living experienced, unlike your holocaust example) to justify some idiot making racist rants.


Pastor Wrights opinions are a joke, we get it and we know it. But use your damn head, if Obama was a racist WE WOULD KNOW BY NOW.


NO ONE HAS CALLED OBAMA A RACIST! People are asking why he would make someone who IS a racist his spiritual advisor. Why he would expose his children to the rants of this moron. Why he would go to a church for 20 years if he so vehemently disagreed with what the man was saying and found it so disgusting. These are all valid questions that have yet to be answered.

Nobody, not even jack nicholson could keep up thios act of peacemaker as long and as convincingly as Obama has and not be sincere.

Curious. Hitler, Lenin, Mussolini all played the role of "unifer" at a time when their people did not trust their governments and they all kept the act up for a fairly long time. Obama has been in the national spot light for 2 years. Its not that long. No one cared what he did in the Illinois state senate so it is not as if there was a huge ammount of scrutiny on him. And before everyone jumps down my throat, I am not claiming Obama is on par with Hitler or anything of the sort. I am simply illustrating the point that politicans are capable of maintaining facades for long periods of time.

[Excel]

No one is asking you to forget. All anyone is saying is do not use a horrible atrocity of the past (that no one living experienced, unlike your holocaust example) to justify some idiot making racist rants.

Nobody's defending Wright, the guy is an idiot. What we're saying is the feeling that caused him to say such stupid crap are real and ignoring them isnt the answer, but thats all yall want to do when they say crap like "get over it".

If some affluent white womans dughter is raped and murdered by a gang of black kids from the ghetto, in anger she might call them ******s or derogitory terms. Yeah, she shouldn't have used those words, but the feelings are real. Thats the whole point.

NO ONE HAS CALLED OBAMA A RACIST! People are asking why he would make someone who IS a racist his spiritual advisor. Why he would expose his children to the rants of this moron. Why he would go to a church for 20 years if he so vehemently disagreed with what the man was saying and found it so disgusting. These are all valid questions that have yet to be answered.

Matt they dont need to be answered. You can think the stuff that Wright thinks without being retarded about it. When Wright isn't infront of a cheering crowd screaming his lungs out, I am sure he makes the same point in a more polite way and those points are valid and thats the truth. Obama knows their valid, he's just a lot more opened minded and optimistic about his view on the world.

Curious. Hitler, Lenin, Mussolini all played the role of "unifer" at a time when their people did not trust their governments and they all kept the act up for a fairly long time. Obama has been in the national spot light for 2 years. Its not that long. No one cared what he did in the Illinois state senate so it is not as if there was a huge ammount of scrutiny on him. And before everyone jumps down my throat, I am not claiming Obama is on par with Hitler or anything of the sort. I am simply illustrating the point that politicans are capable of maintaining facades for long periods of time.

Cool, but unless you believe Obamas doing the same it doesn't matter. I dont think he is and cant imagine an argument you could make saying he was.

[Matt]

Nobody's defending Wright, the guy is an idiot. What we're saying is the feeling that caused him to say such stupid crap are real and ignoring them isnt the answer, but thats all yall want to do when they say crap like "get over it".

If some affluent white womans dughter is raped and murdered by a gang of black kids from the ghetto, in anger she might call them ******s or derogitory terms. Yeah, she shouldn't have used those words, but the feelings are real. Thats the whole point.

Feelings for things he has never experienced? You are comparing things people have lived through to something that has not been around for four generations.


Matt they dont need to be answered. You can think the stuff that Wright thinks without being retarded about it. When Wright isn't infront of a cheering crowd screaming his lungs out, I am sure he makes the same point in a more polite way and those points are valid and thats the truth. Obama knows their valid, he's just a lot more opened minded and optimistic about his view on the world.


Yes, they do need to be answered. Does Obama believe the white man created AIDS? Does Obama believe America deserved to be attacked on 9/11? If not, then why doesn't he answer the questions I stated?


Cool, but unless you believe Obamas doing the same it doesn't matter. I dont think he is and cant imagine an argument you could make saying he was.

No, I do not believe he will be an evil dictator but I do believe he is a liar and a master manipulator who has created an image of himself that is no where close to the real Barack Obama.

[The Senator]

Jman lets say you went to high school and would talk to some kid in class and he became a seriel killer. I guess that means your a bad person right? By your logic?

That's completely way off the point.

Jeremiah Wright wasn't some acquaintance Obama occasionally talked to. He was Obama's reverend, a personal friend, and an adviser on his campaign. And he made Wright an adviser on his campaign after he uttered some of his hateful things.

Had I known a serial killer, chances are, I wouldn't make him a member of my campaign after he went on his killing spree.

[Mr Sparkle]

I answered your question and no, I won't tone it down. You can make whatever assumptions you'd like about his followers. The fact is PASTOR WRIGHT, the individual's hate speech is on par with what a KKK leader says at their rallies.

so, if you're going to say that about the pastor, his followers MUST be like KKK members.
else your comparison is clearly flawed.:cwink:
and you answered the question " yes" which was all I wanted, this means that one can seek spiritual guidance from people he might disagree with politically.

[Mr Sparkle]

That's completely way off the point.

Jeremiah Wright wasn't some acquaintance Obama occasionally talked to. He was Obama's reverend, a personal friend, and an adviser on his campaign. And he made Wright an adviser on his campaign after he uttered some of his hateful things.


:huh: why are YOU still on this? you seem intelligent enough to discern important matters from stupid noise.

[The Senator]

:huh: why are YOU still on this? you seem intelligent enough to discern important matters from stupid noise.

I am on it because I was addressed directly. Not only was I addressed directly, but Excel further proved that he had no idea what I was talking about, so I responded.

If I wasn't addressed directly, I wouldn't have added to this conversation, because it isn't a conversation anymore. It's two people bickering back and forth, and it's the same points being raised in every post, with neither side coming to any sort of agreement.

[Mr Sparkle]

I am on it because I was addressed directly. Not only was I addressed directly, but Excel further proved that he had no idea what I was talking about, so I responded.

If I wasn't addressed directly, I wouldn't have added to this conversation, because it isn't a conversation anymore. It's two people bickering back and forth, and it's the same points being raised in every post, with neither side coming to any sort of agreement.

the question is, do you think it's important? do you think it reflects upon Obama really?
because if you do, then, by all means.
it's just that maybe I've grown weary of all the un-important ******** they trot out to mislead the public.
the 3:00 am phone ads, the experience, and now the " KKK preacher" it all seems like " hey, this is the best we could come up with, eat it up peons!" and it's WORKING!!!! what the hell?

[The Senator]

the question is, do you think it's important? do you think it reflects upon Obama really?

I think it calls into question his judgment more than anything. I also think it will have affect his chances of winning the Presidency. I've explained this before in multiple threads, and I don't feel like repeating what I've said, considering it's too time consuming for me to write the damn post just to have people make inadequate comparisons to a situation which has nothing to do with the topic on hand.

But I will clarify this: I don't think Obama is a closet racist. I don't think Obama's leadership is affected by this.

Like it or not, though, this will effect him, and he's going to have to deal with the consequences.

[Excel]

why doesn't he answer the questions I stated?

because the questions are absurd and ridiculous. "Does Obama believe we deserved 9/11" gimme a ****in break. This is the guy who passed a high salary jobs as a hot shot outta Harvard to get ghetto crackheads find jobs. Obamas about as humanitarian as a big time Presidential candidates gonna get; how the hell some people are still questioning this guys character I have no idea.

[Memphis Slim]

This is from Mike Huckabee on the pulpit speech...



Needless to say, I am surprised. Huckabee has shown himself to be a down home kinda guy, but for him to actually support Wright more than Obama, wow...just wow.


Hey, I'm willing to cut Wright some slack on the oppression he experienced.... But, I still don't him or people closely associated with him (Obama) as President.

[Super_Ludacris]

It speaks volumes when even an evangelical christian like Mike Hucakbee even understands this situation. I dont think that means hes against or for Obama or anything like that.But does he recognise why people feel disenchanted with this country and its a bigger seperate issue. If only more people looked at it like that instead of "well damn, he's practically speaking for Obama's whole campaign". Not even remotely close to the point.

[Zen]

This is from Mike Huckabee on the pulpit speech...



Needless to say, I am surprised. Huckabee has shown himself to be a down home kinda guy, but for him to actually support Wright more than Obama, wow...just wow.


Obama/Huckabee

:wow:

too bad Huckabee doesnt have enough of the other qualities Obama will probably look for in a Veep. i would like to see a truly diverse ticket.

course then obama would get assasinated and the terd would hit the fan

[Tron5000]

It speaks volumes when even an evangelical christian like Mike Hucakbee even understands this situation. I dont think that means hes against or for Obama or anything like that.But does he recognise why people feel disenchanted with this country and its a bigger seperate issue. If only more people looked at it like that instead of "well damn, he's practically speaking for Obama's whole campaign". Not even remotely close to the point.

I have heard no one suggest that Jeremiah Wright is "practically speaking for Obama's campaign." Where did you hear this sentiment?

People are upset with Obama's close personal relationship with a man who harbors hatred for America and its white citizens. People are dismayed by the fact that this man led Obama to God, was a trusted spiritual adviser to Obama, and was the man that Obama referred to as the greatest influence in his adult life. This very close personal relationship with a man who harbors and preaches hatred against America and the white man gives people good reason to question Obama's character, integrity and judgment.

[Tron5000]

because the questions are absurd and ridiculous. "Does Obama believe we deserved 9/11" gimme a ****in break. This is the guy who passed a high salary jobs as a hot shot outta Harvard to get ghetto crackheads find jobs. Obamas about as humanitarian as a big time Presidential candidates gonna get; how the hell some people are still questioning this guys character I have no idea.

People are "questioning this guys character" because he has had for 20 years a close personal relationship with a man who harbors and preaches hatred for America and the white man. He was for 20 years, and still is, a member of a church where this stuff is preached on a regular basis. He calls Jeremiah Wright a close friend, trusted spiritual adviser, and greatest influence in his adult life. And he has lied to us (to you) about his supposed ignorance of Jeremiah Wright's beliefs. So, yes, this will cause people to question his character, as well as his integrity and judgment.

[Super_Ludacris]

But for the one billionth time....Obama dont agree with what Jerimiah is saying. He does recognise where hes coming from with it (so does Huckabee). So theres no need to blame any of this on Barack.

People wanna question his judgement of character while we got a cokehead in the office right now who appointed a guy like Rumsfield who did business with Saddam, aint no one blinking an eye to that.

[Excel]

No, it will cause IDIOTS to question "his character, as well as his integrity and judgment". The mans own personal actions say the total opposite of what yuou claim he may be; anybody willing to throw out everything he has done in his life and judge him upon a friend of his beliefs is just that-an idiot.

[Tron5000]

No, it will cause IDIOTS to question "his character, as well as his integrity and judgment". The mans own personal actions say the total opposite of what yuou claim he may be; anybody willing to throw out everything he has done in his life and judge him upon a friend of his beliefs is just that-an idiot.

I judge him based on his incredible lack of judgment when it comes to the people with whom he chooses to surround himself. A racist, America-hating preacher, a career criminal and a confessed, unapologetic terrorist and enemy of this country. Sorry if that makes me an "IDIOT."

[Excel]

Yes, it does make you an idiot. Throwing everything else out the window and judging him souly on one of his friends opinions is retarded.

[Super_Ludacris]

We got an ex cokehead President who botched warnings on Katrina and 9/11, turned the biggest surplus in economic history into damn near one of the biggest deficets on his watch and another president who thought it was cool to skeet and get head in the office and we wanna judge Obama's judgement of character cause of what the next person said?

If Jerimiah was running for President, maybe. But he aint, lol@ people's judgement of other people mattering more than there own character.

[bell110]

This is from Mike Huckabee on the pulpit speech...



Needless to say, I am surprised. Huckabee has shown himself to be a down home kinda guy, but for him to actually support Wright more than Obama, wow...just wow.

That's awesome.

Personally, I don't get all the hate toward Obama. Why should he dissassociate himself with a friend just because he has a radical point of view? I must be missing something, because everything I've heard about what this guy say, it's not that bad.

[terry78]

All you need is some white people to say they know where you're coming from, and your credibility comes back. :o

[bell110]

But for the one billionth time....Obama dont agree with what Jerimiah is saying. He does recognise where hes coming from with it (so does Huckabee). So theres no need to blame any of this on Barack.

People wanna question his judgement of character while we got a cokehead in the office right now who appointed a guy like Rumsfield who did business with Saddam, aint no one blinking an eye to that.


Exactly. No one ever made a big deal about the people Bush hung around with. As a matter of fact, I've heard him priased because of how loyal he was to his friends.

[Tron5000]

Exactly. No one ever made a big deal about the people Bush hung around with. As a matter of fact, I've heard him priased because of how loyal he was to his friends.

That is a joke, right? 'Cause if it's not, I'm not sure what planet you're living on.

People constantly talk ish about the people around Bush. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Bush Sr., the Saudis...come on, man. Now you're just making things up.

[bell110]

That is a joke, right? 'Cause if it's not, I'm not sure what planet you're living on.

People constantly talk ish about the people around Bush. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Bush Sr., the Saudis...come on, man. Now you're just making things up.

People talked about it, but no one made this big a deal about it.

[hippie_hunter]

The Obama camp blocking the Michigan revote has turned me far more off Obama than Wright's comments which really don't represent Obama.

[Tron5000]

Yes, it does make you an idiot. Throwing everything else out the window and judging him souly on one of his friends opinions is retarded.

Thanks for calling me an "idiot" and "retarded." Very compelling argument you have there.

[hippie_hunter]

Yes, it does make you an idiot. Throwing everything else out the window and judging him souly on one of his friends opinions is retarded.

Considering some of the comments and judgements you've made, you really have no right to call someone an idiot and their opinions retarded.

[Darthphere]

He can denounce the man all he wants and say how wrong his comments are all he wants but you gotta wonder about a man that sat there for 20 years listening to all this. And I don't buy the argument that this was just 3 minutes of how many thousands of hours of preaching.

[amazingfantasy15]

My parents had a friend who was a total racist would call black atheletes on TV horrible names, for the sole reason they were black. However, he was a good friend in other areas of his life, my parents tuned out the racist crap he was spewing and made sure to teach me that racism was wrong. By some people on this boards standards that means my parents are racists, cause they hung around a racist for 20+ years. When I know that's far from the truth, whenever I'd bring a friend of mine that was of a different race, my parents attitude towards him was no different than their attitude towards my white friends, very nice and completely welcoming.

It just shows how petty too many people in this country are, to judge a person on one friends beliefs. So Obama has one friend that is racist, how many friends of his aren't? Has he ever mentioning something that could be considered racist in a speech? An even better question might be, what are the qualities that make Obama keep his pastor close by, I don't think the only thing in his mind is racism towards white people, there's gotta be something there. My parents friend had a lot of great qualities, even though he had big time faults.

[kang604]

lol

this is the reason the rest of the world views the states as a joke.

[Darthphere]

My friends aren't running for President though.

[amazingfantasy15]

My friends aren't running for President though.

Obama's friend/pastor isn't running for President either. Obama is, does he strike as a racist like his friend/pastor? If yes, then you shouldn't vote for him. If no, then you're opinion of him shouldn't change, if fact it should be higher because he won't throw his friend under a bus for political gain.

[Darthphere]

Obama's friend/pastor isn't running for President either. Obama is, does he strike as a racist like his friend/pastor? If yes, then you shouldn't vote for him. If no, then you're opinion of him shouldn't change, if fact it should be higher because he won't throw his friend under a bus for political gain.

Um, you missed the point. If I was running for President and I had racist friends making remarks like that I would expect the same controversy.

[Tron5000]

My parents had a friend who was a total racist would call black atheletes on TV horrible names, for the sole reason they were black. However, he was a good friend in other areas of his life, my parents tuned out the racist crap he was spewing and made sure to teach me that racism was wrong. By some people on this boards standards that means my parents are racists, cause they hung around a racist for 20+ years. When I know that's far from the truth, whenever I'd bring a friend of mine that was of a different race, my parents attitude towards him was no different than their attitude towards my white friends, very nice and completely welcoming.

It just shows how petty too many people in this country are, to judge a person on one friends beliefs. So Obama has one friend that is racist, how many friends of his aren't? Has he ever mentioning something that could be considered racist in a speech? An even better question might be, what are the qualities that make Obama keep his pastor close by, I don't think the only thing in his mind is racism towards white people, there's gotta be something there. My parents friend had a lot of great qualities, even though he had big time faults.

Well goodie for your parents. You should be so proud.

If your parents were running for president, and surrounded themselves with bigoted individuals who hated America and white people, career criminals, and admitted, unapologetic terrorists and enemies of this country, well, then I would have to question your parents' judgment and ability to make decisions for the citizens of this nation.

[Darthphere]

Well goodie for your parents. You should be so proud.

If your parents were running for president, and surrounded themselves with bigoted individuals who hated America and white people, career criminals, and admitted, unapologetic terrorists and enemies of this country, well, then I would have to question your parents' judgment and ability to make decisions for the citizens of this nation.

People running for President have, do, and always will be held to higher standards.

[Tron5000]

McCain's national lead over both dems continues to grow.

http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll



The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Thursday shows John McCain’s lead growing against both potential Democratic opponents. McCain currently leads Barack Obama 49% to 42% and Hillary Clinton 51% to 41% margin (see recent daily results). African-American support for Clinton has collapsed, falling to 55% in the general election match-up. Obama, on the other hand, earns solid support from African-American voters but attracts only 36% of white voters in a match-up with McCain.

Over the past month, McCain has gained ground in Ohio, Michigan, Colorado, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvania. Both Democrats continue to lead in New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut and California (see summary of recent state general election polling).

On the fifth anniversary of the War in Iraq, the candidates all had something to say on the topic but the politics of the issue have become much more complicated. Joe Conason offers a commentary on The Folks Who Brought You Iraq.

In the race for the Democratic Presidential Nomination, Obama now leads Clinton 46% to 43%. Before the story broke about his former Pastor, Obama led by eight. (see recent daily results). New polling data released today shows that Clinton leads handily in West Virginia’s Presidential Primary.

[StorminNorman]

Those polls mean nothing right now, but it is very interesting...

[Tron5000]

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=59456

Obama church published Hamas terror manifesto
Compares charter calling for murder of Jews to Declaration of Independence

Posted: March 20, 2008
12:45 pm Eastern

By Aaron Klein
© 2008 WorldNetDaily

JERUSALEM – Sen. Barack Obama's Chicago church reprinted a manifesto by Hamas that defended terrorism as legitimate resistance, refused to recognize the right of Israel to exist and compared the terror group's official charter – which calls for the murder of Jews – to America's Declaration of Independence.

The Hamas piece was published on the "Pastor's Page" of the Trinity United Church of Christ newsletter reserved for Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., whose anti-American, anti-Israel remarks landed Obama in hot water, prompting the presidential candidate to deliver a major race speech earlier this week.

The revelation follows a recent WND article quoting Israeli security officials who expressed "concern" about Robert Malley, an adviser to Obama who has advocated negotiations with Hamas and providing international assistance to the terrorist group.

In his July 22, 2007, church bulletin, Wright reprinted an article by Mousa Abu Marzook, identified in the newsletter as a "deputy of the political bureau of Hamas." A photo image of the newsletter was captured and posted today by the business blog BizzyBlog. The Hamas piece was first published by the Los Angeles Times, garnering the newspaper much criticism.

According to senior Israeli security officials, Marzook, who resides in Syria alongside Hamas chieftain Khaled Meshaal, is considered the "brains" behind Hamas, designing much of the terror group's policies and ideology. Israel possesses what it says is a large volume of specific evidence that Marzook has been directly involved in calling for or planning scores of Hamas terrorist offensives, including deadly suicide bombings. He was also accused of attempting to set up a Hamas network in the U.S.

Marzook's original piece was titled, "Hamas' stand" but was re-titled "A Fresh View of the Palestinian Struggle" by Obama's church newsletter. The newsletter also referred to Hamas as the "Islamic Resistance Movement," and added in its introduction that Marzook was addressing Hamas' goals for "all of Palestine."

In the manifesto, Marzook refers to Hamas' "resistance" – the group's perpetuation of anti-Israel terrorism targeting civilians – as "legal resistance," which, he argues, is "explicitly supported by the Fourth Geneva Convention."

The Convention, which refers to the rights of people living under occupation, does not support suicide bombings or rocket attacks against civilian population centers, the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America noted.

Marzook refers to Hamas' official charter as "an essentially revolutionary document" and compares the violent creed to the Declaration of Independence, which, Marzook states, "simply did not countenance any such status for the 700,000 African slaves at that time."

Hamas' charter calls for the murder of Jews. Among its platforms is a statement that the "[resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!'"

In his piece, Marzook says Hamas only targets Israel and denies that Hamas' war is meant to be waged against the U.S., even though Hamas officials have threatened America, and Hamas' charter calls for Muslims to "pursue the cause of the Movement (Hamas), all over the globe."

Trinity Church did not respond to a phone message requesting comment.

Obama's campaign also did not reply to phone and e-mail requests today for comment.

Obama aide wants talks with terrorists

WND reported in January that Malley, an Obama foreign policy adviser, has penned numerous opinion articles, many of them co-written with a former adviser to the late Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat, petitioning for dialogue with Hamas and blasting Israel for policies he says harm the Palestinian cause.

Malley also previously penned a well-circulated New York Review of Books piece largely blaming Israel for the collapse of the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations at Camp David in 2000 when Arafat turned down a Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza and eastern sections of Jerusalem and instead returned to the Middle East to launch an intifada, or terrorist campaign, against the Jewish state.

Malley's contentions have been strongly refuted by key participants at Camp David, including President Clinton, then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and primary U.S. envoy to the Middle East Dennis Ross, all of whom squarely blamed Arafat's refusal to make peace for the talks' failure.

In February 2006, after Hamas won a majority of seats in the Palestinian parliament and amid a U.S. and Israeli attempt to isolate the Hamas-run Palestinian Authority, Malley wrote an op-ed for the Baltimore Sun advocating international aid to the terror group's newly formed government.

"The Islamists (Hamas) ran on a campaign of effective government and promised to improve Palestinians' lives; they cannot do that if the international community turns its back," wrote Malley in a piece entitled, "Making the Best of Hamas' Victory."

Malley contended the election of Hamas expressed Palestinian "anger at years of humiliation and loss of self-respect because of Israeli settlement expansion, Arafat's imprisonment, Israel's incursions, Western lecturing and, most recently and tellingly, the threat of an aid cutoff in the event of an Islamist success."

Malley said the U.S. should not "discourage third-party unofficial contacts with [Hamas] in an attempt to moderate it."

In an op-ed in the Washington Post in January coauthored by Arafat adviser Hussein Agha, Malley – using what could be perceived as anti-Israel language – urged Israel's negotiating partner, Abbas, to reunite with Hamas.

"A renewed national compact and the return of Hamas to the political fold would upset Israel's strategy of perpetuating Palestinian geographic and political division," wrote Malley.

He further petitioned Israel to hold talks with Hamas.

"An arrangement between Israel and Hamas could advance both sides' interests," Malley wrote.

In numerous other op-eds, Malley advocated a policy of engagement with Hamas.

[Tron5000]

Those polls mean nothing right now, but it is very interesting...

If it is interesting, then doesn't that, by definition, mean that they do mean something?

[Matt]

Obama's friend/pastor isn't running for President either. Obama is, does he strike as a racist like his friend/pastor? If yes, then you shouldn't vote for him. If no, then you're opinion of him shouldn't change, if fact it should be higher because he won't throw his friend under a bus for political gain.

Y'know what, I am going to come out and say it. YES, Obama does strike me as racist after this. If someone will go to a church that preaches this kind of hate speech for 20 years, then clearly to an extent they believe what the pastor is saying. If I had friend whom I found out went to a KKK rally every week for 20 years, regardless of the fact that they showed not outward signs of racism, and their excuse was "Yeah, I went, but I don't really believe in it." I'd probably call bull ****. I am doing the same here.

[Tron5000]

Y'know what, I am going to come out and say it. YES, Obama does strike me as racist after this. If someone will go to a church that preaches this kind of hate speech for 20 years, then clearly to an extent they believe what the pastor is saying. If I had friend whom I found out went to a KKK rally every week for 20 years, regardless of they showed not outward signs of racism, and their excuse was "Yeah, I went, but I don't really believe in it." I'd probably call bull ****. I am doing the same here.

Well said.

[StorminNorman]

If it is interesting, then doesn't that, by definition, mean that they do mean something?

It means something about the views of the people now - but it gives no indication about how they will vote in November. Since the people have no power to elect people today, the way they feel about the candidates don't mean all that much.

To me, I look at these polls to see how far Obama drops because of Wright. That is the only true relevance they have.

[Tron5000]

It means something about the views of the people now - but it gives no indication about how they will vote in November. Since the people have no power to elect people today, the way they feel about the candidates don't mean all that much.

To me, I look at these polls to see how far Obama drops because of Wright. That is the only true relevance they have.

Of course the polls only reflect the beliefs of voters now and can't be used to predict what will be the case 8 months from now. But they do show that right now, people are favoring McCain over the 2 Dems. And the longer this little Democrat sideshow keeps playing out, I feel the gap will widen.

[Tron5000]

So now we know how Obama feels about white people.

http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MDg1MTk0YjQ2YjI1ZDBhNDYzMTA4Y2NhMDA4ZWRlOWU=

Obama Helpfully Clarifies That His Grandmother Is a "Typical White Person"

In Philadelphia this morning, Barack Obama confronted the remains of the Jeremiah Wright brushfire, the smoldering embers of this anecdote of his grandmother using racial stereotypes that made him cringe... and promptly spilled gasoline on those embers.

610 WIP host Angelo Cataldi asked Obama about his Tuesday morning speech on race at the National Constitution Center in which he referenced his own white grandmother and her prejudice. Obama told Cataldi that "The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity, but that she is a typical white person. If she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know (pause) there's a reaction in her that doesn't go away and it comes out in the wrong way."

The grandmother reference from the speech, as you'll recall:

I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother – a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.

You know, typical.

03/20 01:18 PM


So Obama's grandmother is "a typical white person," and she "on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made [him] cringe."

This is what Obama views as the beliefs of the "typical white person"? Interesting...

[Super_Ludacris]

So someone break down to me how Jerimiah's comments are gonna put the economy in an even worse position than under Bush's watch if Barack gets elected?

[Tron5000]

So someone break down to me how Jerimiah's comments are gonna put the economy in an even worse position than under Bush's watch if Barack gets elected?

It'll have nothing to do with Jeremiah Wright's comments, but Obama will further drag this economy down by heavily taxing corporations (leading to less investment in capital and new technologies), heavily taxing "the rich" (business owners, who then in turn will have less money to pay wages and invest in their businesses, thus leading to fewer jobs and less business expansion) and taxing investment income (leading to less investment by individuals, which in turn means less income and less money going back into the economy at the retail level).

[Super_Ludacris]

It'll have nothing to do with Jeremiah Wright's comments

Thats all you needed to say

[Tron5000]

Thats all you needed to say

My point was that Obama's close personal relationship with a man who preaches hatred for America and its white citizens and the way Obama would cripple this economy are 2 separate issues. But 2 issues that are very damaging to him in my opinion.

[bell110]

It isn't?

[Tron5000]

It isn't?

You believe this is how the "typical white person" thinks and behaves?

[bell110]

You know, I found it ridiculous that in the begining of all this, the media was asking if America was ready for a black president. Now the Wright thing happens and the media is acting like white people are above looking at things according to race. I'm voting for Obama out of spite now.

[bell110]

You believe this is how the "typical white person" thinks and behaves?


Yes, this is America. I've seen it with my own eyes. I think anybody who says that they haven't said something racist, or at least stereotypical, is either lying, or they just don't realize it when they do it.

[Tron5000]

You know, I found it ridiculous that in the begining of all this, the media was asking if America was ready for a black president. Now the Wright thing happens and the media is acting like white people are above looking at things according to race. I'm voting for Obama out of spite now.

Oh yeah, that's a great reason to elect the next leader of this great nation. We're so lucky to have informed voters such as yourself pulling the lever "out of spite."

[Tron5000]

Yes, this is America. I've seen it with my own eyes. I think anybody who says that they haven't said something racist, or at least stereotypical, is either lying, or they just don't realize it when they do it.

So you think that the "typical white person" "on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that" would make you "cringe"?

Look, there are obviously white people in America that are racist, just as there are black, Asian and Hispanic racists. But you're far off base if you believe this is an accurate portrayal of the "typical white person." That statement is just factually deficient.

[Kelly]

I would like to see either of you prove your statements with sourced facts......

[SuBe]

So you think that the "typical white person" "on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that" would make you "cringe"?

Look, there are obviously white people in America that are racist, just as there are black, Asian and Hispanic racists. But you're far off base if you believe this is an accurate portrayal of the "typical white person." That statement is just factually deficient.

That's where you are wrong Tron, apparently only white people can be racists, you should have known better.

[Tron5000]

I would like to see either of you prove your statements with sourced facts......

You want me to prove to you that the average white person does not utter racist statements that would make you cringe?

[Excel]

Y'know what, I am going to come out and say it. YES, Obama does strike me as racist after this. If someone will go to a church that preaches this kind of hate speech for 20 years, then clearly to an extent they believe what the pastor is saying. If I had friend whom I found out went to a KKK rally every week for 20 years, regardless of the fact that they showed not outward signs of racism, and their excuse was "Yeah, I went, but I don't really believe in it." I'd probably call bull ****. I am doing the same here.

Chances are if your friend was going to KKK meetings for 20 years and was indeed a racist, you would have to be pretty unobservant to notice. Obama aint done **** to make me think hes racist and thats the point. Its very possible to have a different opinion than a friend, pastor, or spiritual advisor...anybody assuming Obama automatically believes everything that comes out of Wrights mouth is being stubbrun cause theres no evidence to speak of saying otherwise. Not meant as an insult, it's the truth.

Bur...your comparing church to kkk meetings :rolleyes:

[Kelly]

You want me to prove to you that the average white person does not utter racist statements that would make you cringe?

You say that his statements are factually deficient, prove your statements with facts.....

[Excel]

Considering some of the comments and judgements you've made, you really have no right to call someone an idiot and their opinions retarded.

I didnt say his opinion was retarded, I said how he got there was. I guess a better word would be "ignorant". Judging someone by their friends isnt even remotely fair.

Its like people who dislike Hillary cause of Bill.

[Mr Sparkle]

This is what Obama views as the beliefs of the "typical white person"? Interesting...

it's what they were at those times, yes, and even as early as 10, 15 years ago.
so to him, she does represent the age demographic he is talking about, that should be obvious.
I'm pretty sure that given Obama's age, the stances she took were moderate for the times.

:o

[Kelly]

I didnt say his opinion was retarded, I said how he got there was. I guess a better word would be "ignorant". Judging someone by their friends isnt even remotely fair.

Its like people who dislike Hillary cause of Bill.

No, none of those words would be correct......Excel, your posts are full of passion, zeal and emotion.....and there is nothing wrong with that.....you yourself have said that you know very little when it comes to politics and you are learning........so for you to say that a person's opinion, or how they formed that opinion is retarded, or ignorant...is just silly. So, continue to give your passionate, zealous, emotional opinions.......but don't call someone else's opinion, or forming of their opinion retarded.......just don't.

[Tron5000]

You say that his statements are factually deficient, prove your statements with facts.....

OK, here's a fact. I consider myself and many close friends to be "typical white" people. We don't make racist statements that would make people "cringe." Fact.

[Kelly]

Prove it....

[jaguarr]

Prove it....

:heart:

jag

[Kelly]

Damn, I'm doing GOOOOOOOOD, I'm getting all kinds of love these days......lol

[Tron5000]

Prove it....

OK. I'll set up a webcam so you guys can watch me 24 hours a day to monitor my speech and make sure I don't make racist statements that would make you cringe. Maybe we could contact the networks and make this a reality show. I wonder if Jessica Simpson is looking for work. She seemed to do pretty well off her last reality show.

[Excel]

Psh, w/e Ill let it go.

[bell110]

I would like to see either of you prove your statements with sourced facts......

I obviously can't, it's just based on my observations.

[Kelly]

OK. I'll set up a webcam so you guys can watch me 24 hours a day to monitor my speech and make sure I don't make racist statements that would make you cringe. Maybe we could contact the networks and make this a reality show. I wonder if Jessica Simpson is looking for work. She seemed to do pretty well off her last reality show.

*sighs*....Tron, the point is.....................you can't prove something like that......you cannot find "proof" of a number or percentage of people who "are" or "are not" racist........you will get a % of their opinion of themselves.....and I can assure you a large % of "white people" do not think they are racist, or have had racist type of thinking. I can assure you, a far greater % of "black people" would say they are not racist.....that they can't be racist, but we all can, and probably have at some point in our life, either "said" something racial, or "thought" something racial......it happens. It happens to the best of us, who are white, black, brown, green whatever....it happens.

[bell110]

OK, here's a fact. I consider myself and many close friends to be "typical white" people. We don't make racist statements that would make people "cringe." Fact.

You keep saying statements that would make you "cringe". Of course if Obama heard his grandmother say something racist, it would make him cringe because of who he is. Not many things make me cringe though.

[Darthphere]

So someone break down to me how Jerimiah's comments are gonna put the economy in an even worse position than under Bush's watch if Barack gets elected?

One has nothing to do with another, and this is a classic case of deflection. Bring something else up to make the other thing seem less important. Either way, the economy isn't the only problem these candidates have to face.

[Tron5000]

The following commentary pretty much sums up where my feelings on Obama currently are. Yes, it's from a conservative columnist, so go ahead and attack the source if you like. But it is a commentary, not a news article, and I am in agreement with the opinions of the writer.

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/31324.html

To accept Barack Obama's explanation that he never heard anything inflammatory in Wright's preachings, despite 20 years as a member of his church, would require --as Hillary Clinton once noted-- the willing suspension of disbelief. It is quite obvious that Wright has had a tremendous influence on Obama over the years.

Over and over Obama claims that he is different; that he has the sound judgment and character to --not just unite-- but also to lead the free world. His judgment is the centerpiece of his campaign. But he is no different than any other politician. When caught with his hand in the cookie jar, Obama reacts exactly the same way all politicians do. Shrewdly. He goes into damage control mode, responding only to the immediate accusations.

The pressing problem for Obama is that the end of this chapter has yet to be written. When you look at his previous decision to remove his flag lapel pin, his refusal to respect the flag during the rendering of the National Anthem and his long association with Wright, you begin to see the big picture of a presidential candidate who has some explaining to do about his views of this country.

Obama's Kool-Aid drinkers (or rather disciples) claim that their candidate denounced the Reverend, so we should all just move on. But the issue is not whether Barack Obama agrees or disagrees with Wright's comments. It is about what he believes... Who he has indicated were the major influences in his life... It is about his character, honesty and relationship with Wright. The associations we make as human beings are based on commonalities in our lives and beliefs. As a general rule, we foster friendships based on shared belief systems and do not associate with those whose views we find offensive. Which makes one wonder exactly what does Barack Obama believe?

[Kelly]

Who wrote that? Billy O????? the koolaid statement sounds like him....lol

[amazingfantasy15]

One has nothing to do with another, and this is a classic case of deflection. Bring something else up to make the other thing seem less important. Either way, the economy isn't the only problem these candidates have to face.

Yeah, but it's gonna be one of the major things they're gonna half to deal with. Hell, for the first time I can remember the US dollar is weaker than the Canadian dollar!

A racist pastor isn't one of the big problems facing this country. Racism is a problem that should be addressed, but we've got far bigger problems right now.

[Matt]

Chances are if your friend was going to KKK meetings for 20 years and was indeed a racist, you would have to be pretty unobservant to notice. Obama aint done **** to make me think hes racist and thats the point. Its very possible to have a different opinion than a friend, pastor, or spiritual advisor...anybody assuming Obama automatically believes everything that comes out of Wrights mouth is being stubbrun cause theres no evidence to speak of saying otherwise. Not meant as an insult, it's the truth.

Bur...your comparing church to kkk meetings :rolleyes:

A church that preaches racial hate.

Okay, how's this. If my friend goes to the Westboro Southern Baptist Church for 20 years and denies he is a homophobe I will call bull **** on that.

Obama has spent 20 years attending sermons of hate speech. It seems like pretty good evidence to support his racism to me. You say that you don't see anything to imply such? When is the last time you and Obama sat down for coffee by the way? You only know what the media shows. You have no idea how this man acts in his personal life. Outside of which church he made the choice to attend for 20 years and that church certainly implies he at the very least has a lot of resentment towards white people.

[Excel]

Please, you think this is all he talked about? You keep saying hes been hearing this stuff for 20 years but the sermons are all from within the last 5.

Obama is too damn hopeful and optimistic and intereacts way too well and naturally with white people to have some real huge inner hate of them within him.

[Mr Sparkle]

The following commentary pretty much sums up where my feelings on Obama currently are. Yes, it's from a conservative columnist, so go ahead and attack the source if you like. But it is a commentary, not a news article, and I am in agreement with the opinions of the writer.

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/31324.html

I won't attack the source.
I will however, ask that you tell me if you wear a flag pin. or if you have friends you disagree with politically.
because I have gone over what Wright said, and when he said God Damn America, he was saying this because he said that America was killing innocent people.
is that the kind of thing YOU personally celebrate? or has the fear of questioning the actions, not of your country, but of your GOVERNMENT grown so paranoid that to question government is equal to not "loving your country"

the opinion piece calls those on the side of Obama disciples, like I told you, the easiest way to get lost is to try and make your opponent some sort of caricature.
do you really believe that those on the side of Obama are closed off to logic? :huh: if you agree with that you're pretty much lost already, and a life of easy answers awaits you, where there is no room for complexity.
the trouble is that life is complex.

[Darthphere]

Yeah, but it's gonna be one of the major things they're gonna half to deal with. Hell, for the first time I can remember the US dollar is weaker than the Canadian dollar!

A racist pastor isn't one of the big problems facing this country. Racism is a problem that should be addressed, but we've got far bigger problems right now.

Again, it's never been about a racist pastor.:whatever:

[Tron5000]

I won't attack the source.
I will however, ask that you tell me if you wear a flag pin. or if you have friends you disagree with politically.
because I have gone over what Wright said, and when he said God Damn America, he was saying this because he said that America was killing innocent people.
is that the kind of thing YOU personally celebrate? or has the fear of questioning the actions, not of your country, but of your GOVERNMENT grown so paranoid that to question government is equal to not "loving your country"

the opinion piece calls those on the side of Obama disciples, like I told you, the easiest way to get lost is to try and make your opponent some sort of caricature.
do you really believe that those on the side of Obama are closed off to logic? :huh: if you agree with that you're pretty much lost already, and a life of easy answers awaits you, where there is no room for complexity.
the trouble is that life is complex.

I have a flag pin which I wear on my lapel on the occasions when I wear a suit. Yep, certainly do.

I think many people in this country are closed off to logic. People who support McCain, Clinton and Obama. You can't categorically refer to all supporters of a particular candidate as "closed off to logic." But I am hearing an awful lot of illogical statements and defenses from Obama supporters.

And yes, I disagree with several of my friends on a great deal of political issues. But I do not associate with anti-American racists, career criminals or admitted, unabashed terrorists. If I did, I would think this would disqualify me from a political position in my county, let alone the highest office in the land.

[Darthphere]

Please, you think this is all he talked about? You keep saying hes been hearing this stuff for 20 years but the sermons are all from within the last 5.

Obama is too damn hopeful and optimistic and intereacts way too well and naturally with white people to have some real huge inner hate of them within him.

Ok, so he only sat there and listened to hateful speech about America and Whites for the last 5 years, that makes me feel better.

[bell110]

To accept Barack Obama's explanation that he never heard anything inflammatory in Wright's preachings, despite 20 years as a member of his church, would require --as Hillary Clinton once noted-- the willing suspension of disbelief. It is quite obvious that Wright has had a tremendous influence on Obama over the years.

Over and over Obama claims that he is different; that he has the sound judgment and character to --not just unite-- but also to lead the free world. His judgment is the centerpiece of his campaign. But he is no different than any other politician. When caught with his hand in the cookie jar, Obama reacts exactly the same way all politicians do. Shrewdly. He goes into damage control mode, responding only to the immediate accusations.

The pressing problem for Obama is that the end of this chapter has yet to be written. When you look at his previous decision to remove his flag lapel pin, his refusal to respect the flag during the rendering of the National Anthem and his long association with Wright, you begin to see the big picture of a presidential candidate who has some explaining to do about his views of this country.

Obama's Kool-Aid drinkers (or rather disciples) claim that their candidate denounced the Reverend, so we should all just move on. But the issue is not whether Barack Obama agrees or disagrees with Wright's comments. It is about what he believes... Who he has indicated were the major influences in his life... It is about his character, honesty and relationship with Wright. The associations we make as human beings are based on commonalities in our lives and beliefs. As a general rule, we foster friendships based on shared belief systems and do not associate with those whose views we find offensive. Which makes one wonder exactly what does Barack Obama believe?

Not wearing a flag pin doesn't mean you hate the country. And he never refused to respect the flag.

Yes, we do form relationships with people based on common beliefs, but we don't have to agree 100% with those people. People are acting like Wright goes on ranting and raving hatred for America and white people 24/7. I have a feeling that Wright has said positive things much, much more that negative. And really, some of Wright's words, although controversial and even stupid, do bring up valid points. Just because someone criticizes America doesn't mean they're anti-american. Maybe if Obama really does believe what Wright says, maybe that's a good thing. If he believes it, he might try and fix it, instead of turning a blind eye to the problem and pretending that everything is hunky-dory.

[Mr Sparkle]

Y'know what, I am going to come out and say it. YES, Obama does strike me as racist after this. If someone will go to a church that preaches this kind of hate speech for 20 years, then clearly to an extent they believe what the pastor is saying. If I had friend whom I found out went to a KKK rally every week for 20 years, regardless of the fact that they showed not outward signs of racism, and their excuse was "Yeah, I went, but I don't really believe in it." I'd probably call bull ****. I am doing the same here.

but then, you already disliked Obama, this just conveniently underscores your views. I asked you many times before if Obama was a racist you said you didn't know, but NOW, you seem very sure that he is a racist.
that's weird to me.
then all the members of the 700 club are homophobes and Islamophobes right?
because surely, being a member of an organization run by Pat Robertson makes you agree with HIM on all things and subjects.
I mean, I hate pat robertson and even I haven't made that HUUUUUUUGE leap in logic, perhaps because I'm not politically motivated.
you wanted Obama to loose, and I understand that, but you perhaps should be more concerned about highlighting his actual shortcomings rather than fabricating some dark racist agenda.
because I'd call ******** on THAT.

[amazingfantasy15]

A church that preaches racial hate.

Okay, how's this. If my friend goes to the Westboro Southern Baptist Church for 20 years and denies he is a homophobe I will call bull **** on that.

Obama has spent 20 years attending sermons of hate speech. It seems like pretty good evidence to support his racism to me. You say that you don't see anything to imply such? When is the last time you and Obama sat down for coffee by the way? You only know what the media shows. You have no idea how this man acts in his personal life. Outside of which church he made the choice to attend for 20 years and that church certainly implies he at the very least has a lot of resentment towards white people.

You don't have to just attend the Westboro Bapist Church to be taught that being gay is wrong, the large majority of Catholic Churches preach that, does that mean that's all they preach or that the large majority of Catholics are homophobes? Of course not. Just like I'm sure every week at the church Obama attends doesn't preach hatred towards white america. Maybe that week something truly distrubing happened in the area that caused Wright to go on the tirade. Have we even heard anything from Wright regarding the "God Damn America" sermon? Also why is this just coming out now, if this pastor has been giving these sermons for 20 years why hasn't anyone brought it up yet? Hmmm, someone on the Hillary campaign gets caught saying something racially insensitive, all the sudden we find someone close to Obama doing the same thing, seems a little fishy to me.

[Mr Sparkle]

I have a flag pin which I wear on my lapel on the occasions when I wear a suit. Yep, certainly do.

so, you'd say that those people NOT wearing flagpins don't like the US?:huh:

I think many people in this country are closed off to logic. People who support McCain, Clinton and Obama. You can't categorically refer to all supporters of a particular candidate as "closed off to logic." But I am hearing an awful lot of illogical statements and defenses from Obama supporters.

the article you just endorsed DID categorically assign a label of " disciples " to Obama supporters. and we both know the intent of calling them that.
so then, why endorse the comment?


And yes, I disagree with several of my friends on a great deal of political issues. But I do not associate with anti-American racists, career criminals or admitted, unabashed terrorists. If I did, I would think this would disqualify me from a political position in my county, let alone the highest office in the land.

why is questioning the actions of a government equal to hate of your home country?
I mean, I question the actions of the Mexican government all the time, and I think corruption and greed permeate every aspect of it.
so you think that's anti-Mexican?:huh:
the " career criminals or admitted, unabashed terrorists" seems out of place since neither label has been set on Wright and rightly so.
I mean, again, you would think that association with terrorists would be enough to disqualify you from the highest office in the US, but then, Bush's family had business dealings with the Bin Laden family, the Saudi government and stuff, and well, you know the rest, even JFK had close ties to the Mob and every president before and since has had association with some shady character or another, yet it didn't matter back then it seems.

[Tron5000]

Not wearing a flag pin doesn't mean you hate the country. And he never refused to respect the flag.

Yes, we do form relationships with people based on common beliefs, but we don't have to agree 100% with those people. People are acting like Wright goes on ranting and raving hatred for America and white people 24/7. I have a feeling that Wright has said positive things much, much more that negative. And really, some of Wright's words, although controversial and even stupid, do bring up valid points. Just because someone criticizes America doesn't mean they're anti-american. Maybe if Obama really does believe what Wright says, maybe that's a good thing. If he believes it, he might try and fix it, instead of turning a blind eye to the problem and pretending that everything is hunky-dory.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f206/harrelson2131/obama-and-the-nat-ant.jpg

No, not wearing a flag pin "doesn't mean you hate the country." You're grossly oversimplifying things.

But when you combine the fact that he previously did wear a flag pin on his lapel and then decided against it, he does not salute the American flag when the Star-Spangled Banner is played or sung, he is a 20-year member of a church where the pastor preaches hatred of America, and Obama has a close personal relationship with the man, yes, I feel I have every right to ask questions of Obama's beliefs of this country.

[Excel]

A church that preaches racial hate.

Okay, how's this. If my friend goes to the Westboro Southern Baptist Church for 20 years and denies he is a homophobe I will call bull **** on that.

Another horrible compairson.

I dont see Wright and his people doing anything more than talking about it on Sundays. What makes westboro so bad isnt what they say, its what they do. Picketing soldiers funerals n **** like that. Going on tv and parading around like everybody on Earth is horrible. Its not the fact that they hate those kinds of people because a lot of people dislike gay men; most straight males I have met generally do wether they admit it or not-they laugh at gay jokes, take offense if a gay guy even looks at them funny-but guess what? Thats all OK. What ISNT ok is doing what Westboro does. It wouldnt be ok if my friend went up the gay guy who looked at him, punched n said "lose the look ***".


Actions speak louder than words because actions are the only thing that matter, not thoughts of words (in this case, words of a friend) and until somebody shows me proof of Obama treating white folks bad, you cant tell me he's a racist or that he bought into words because the bottom line is Obama could be a racist, he could but it does not matter as long as he treats everybody fair. And thats what he's done, and given that we have no evidence of him mistreating white people or anything even remotely resembling racism on his part when it comes to his past actions people; it would require a huge leap of faith to say this man is a racist/racist beliefs effect his decisions.

[bell110]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f206/harrelson2131/obama-and-the-nat-ant.jpg

No, not wearing a flag pin "doesn't mean you hate the country." You're grossly oversimplifying things.

But when you combine the fact that he previously did wear a flag pin on his lapel and then decided against it, he does not salute the American flag when the Star-Spangled Banner is played or sung, he is a 20-year member of a church where the pastor preaches hatred of America, and Obama has a close personal relationship with the man, yes, I feel I have every right to ask questions of Obama's beliefs of this country.

I'm not oversimplifying things, the guy that wrote that article is. And he is standing during the anthem, is he not. That is respecting the flag. I haven't stood for the pledge since 11th grade, and rarely stand for the anthem, that doesn't mean I hate America. I just find the whole thing cliche. And yes, you have the right to ask questions. I just find this whole mess to be very petty.

As for the conservative media. It's sickening. Bush's grandfather plotted to overthrow the government. His family has had ties to dictatorships for decades. Bush himself took a big ol' steaming crap on the constitution. None of the conservative pundits ever accuse Bush of being anti-american.

[Kelly]

My problem is not whether he is racist or not.......I think everyone has at some time had a racist thought.....just some are more vocal than others....and some take it to actions. That's not the problem I'm seeing......

My problem is his judgment in "knowing".....and he had to know, if he knew the man as well as he says he does.....he had to know.......then his judgment in putting him as his spiritual advisor causes me to pause and doubt.......not necessarily change my opinion of Obama.....but if he is the one saying he wants to build a bridge, conquer the divide so to speak.....then putting this man in his campaign....IMO, was a major lapse of judgment and we are now seeing the problems from it.....

So its not about him being a racist....its about lack of judgment...

Just makes me pause......and look a lot closer.



If those Super Delegates are thinking twice on putting an "unknown" on the ticket that is not good.....the clear Democrats may not see this reverend thing as a big deal, but it is a HUGE unknown factor in a General Election........and I can assure you, that is what they are thinking...

Democrats have a hell of a choice......the "unknown factor" vs. the "known baggage"......damn...............

[Excel]

Judging from what seems to be Obamas general outlook on life...I would imagine Wright spiritual advising in private was a lot more like the "we must love everybody" stuff then the "god damn america!" he preached about in his service. There is a big difference between what you tell a hole crowd of people amongst whome mannnny have suffered greatly compared to what you tell your rich Harvard buddy in private.

[Darthphere]

This could be Obama's "Hymietown" moment.

[Kelly]

Judging from what seems to be Obamas general outlook on life...I would imagine Wright spiritual advising in private was a lot more like the "we must love everybody" stuff then the "god damn america!" he preached about in his service. There is a big difference between what you tell a hole crowd of people amongst whome mannnny have suffered greatly compared to what you tell your rich Harvard buddy in private.

But you are speculating on that......that is the unknown factor. And I have no idea what you are talking about with that analogy....:huh:

[Excel]

Wright is going to tell a huge room full of black strgangers who have suffered from things such as unequal oppritunity, ect. things that are very different from what he tells Barack Obama, his affluent Harvard grad friend.

[Kelly]

I'm not oversimplifying things, the guy that wrote that article is. And he is standing during the anthem, is he not. That is respecting the flag. I haven't stood for the pledge since 11th grade, and rarely stand for the anthem, that doesn't mean I hate America. I just find the whole thing cliche. And yes, you have the right to ask questions. I just find this whole mess to be very petty.

As for the conservative media. It's sickening. Bush's grandfather plotted to overthrow the government. His family has had ties to dictatorships for decades. Bush himself took a big ol' steaming crap on the constitution. None of the conservative pundits ever accuse Bush of being anti-american.

That's kind of sad.....hell I at least stand for the raising of flags from other countries, simply out of respect. Doesn't show me that you "hate" America....but it does look like you don't "respect" it very much........not saying that you don't.....but that is a major "show" of disrespect.

[Darthphere]

Wright is going to tell a huge room full of black strgangers who have suffered from things such as unequal oppritunity, ect. things that are very different from what he tells Barack Obama, his affluent Harvard grad friend.

That's speculation, for all we know he sat him down in a room and told him "Remember what I said about them white folks!"

[Malice]

I personally don't have a problem with the "American flag pin" but I do have a little problem with the pledge.

[Malice]

I personally don't have a problem with the "American flag pin" but I do have a little problem with the pledge.

The funny part, is, they are somewhat the same issue. Almost hipocritical on me, but one bothers me, and the other doesnt.

[terry78]

We have the freedom in this country to not respect its traditions, though the catch-22 is that people will deem you unpatriotic if you don't.

[Malice]

didnt listen to any of it...so I cant comment on it.

[Kelly]

Wright is going to tell a huge room full of black strgangers who have suffered from things such as unequal oppritunity, ect. things that are very different from what he tells Barack Obama, his affluent Harvard grad friend.

And you know this because?

You've sat in on their conversations?


Weak....very weak.

[hippie_hunter]

This could be Obama's "Hymietown" moment.

I have that feeling too. Asides from North Carolina and Kentucky, the remaining states don't have any sizeable African-American electorate that can really influence how things go.

Not only that, but Clinton is very likely to win Kentucky and North Carolina has become very competitive to the point where such things can hurt Obama.

The rest of the states (Montana, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Indiana, Oregon) are pure white bread and one is completely hispanic (Puerto Rico) that would most likely be put off by such things.

The only contest that I think Obama is guaranteed to win now is Guam. He'll lose for sure in the Rust Belt states. North Carolina is now compeititve and very likely the remaining Midwest states. The next couple of weeks are really in Clinton's favor now.

[Kelly]

I have that feeling too. Asides from North Carolina and Kentucky, the remaining states don't have any sizeable African-American electorate that can really influence how things go.

Not only that, but Clinton is very likely to win Kentucky and North Carolina has become very competitive to the point where such things can hurt Obama.

The rest of the states (Montana, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Indiana, Oregon) are pure white bread and one is completely hispanic (Puerto Rico) that would most likely be put off by such things.

The only contest that I think Obama is guaranteed to win now is Guam. He'll lose for sure in the Rust Belt states. North Carolina is now compeititve and very likely the remaining Midwest states. The next couple of weeks are really in Clinton's favor now.

Well she has to win 60% of the vote to get even close to Obama......it is going to come down to a brokered convention I'm afraid......and if that is the case.....then this issue is REALLY going to blow up.

[Kelly]

We have the freedom in this country to not respect its traditions, though the catch-22 is that people will deem you unpatriotic if you don't.

I don't deem them "unpatriotic" but I will ask why?

[hippie_hunter]

Well she has to win 60% of the vote to get even close to Obama......it is going to come down to a brokered convention I'm afraid......and if that is the case.....then this issue is REALLY going to blow up.

It's no doubt going to be a brokered convention. There's no way either one of them is going to get the needed majority.

[Franklin Richards]

The Pledge bothers me because it was changed in the 50's because of McCarthy fear tactics.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[StorminNorman]

A book recently emerged that McCarthy wasn't nearly as bad as history portrays (or portrayed) him.

I understand it has almost nothing to do with the actual subject and understand fully the sentiment you were trying to make - just throwing it out there :)

[Kelly]

It's no doubt going to be a brokered convention. There's no way either one of them is going to get the needed majority.


Not necessarily......for it to be a "truly" brokered convention......they will have to be very close in delegates.....the question now is....HOW CLOSE? Also, there is the unanswered question of Michigan and Florida......there are a lot of variables.......but I agree, it will end up being a very loud "brokered" convention.......

And for those of you that keep asking "how can the Super Delegates NOT go with the popular vote of the states"........They would NOT be Super Delegates if they HAD TO go with the popular vote of the state. A Super Delegate has the ability to vote "their" heart, conviction, whatever you want to call it....they DO NOT have to vote the majority. That is why they are Super Delegates.

But even with that, I'm sure we will have this debate once again....lol

[Franklin Richards]

This book I've GOT to read. :D


:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Kelly]

The Pledge bothers me because it was changed in the 50's because of McCarthy fear tactics.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

And that is perfectly fine.......if that were my thoughts.....I would still "stand" out of respect to my countries, or any countries flag being raised.

[Superman]

Damn it to hell!!!!!!

Obama was in my hometown today making a speech and I didn't find out about it till it was over.:cmad::cmad::cmad:

This makes twice I've missed a speech by a presidential canditate here. In 2004 Kerry came and I missed that too.:cmad:

[Franklin Richards]

I still do. I just don't say "Under God".

I don't make a big deal out of it. I just don't say it.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[StorminNorman]

I have that feeling too. Asides from North Carolina and Kentucky, the remaining states don't have any sizeable African-American electorate that can really influence how things go.

Not only that, but Clinton is very likely to win Kentucky and North Carolina has become very competitive to the point where such things can hurt Obama.


Exactly. With Obama currently having an irrelevant 1% lead over Clinton among voting Democrats (a percentage that could be made by anti-Obama Republicans) there is great trouble here.

I think if Obama fails to win NC, he is in a horrible, horrible position. I am not sure he would be able to recover.

[StorminNorman]

Not necessarily......for it to be a "truly" brokered convention......they will have to be very close in delegates.....the question now is....HOW CLOSE? Also, there is the unanswered question of Michigan and Florida......there are a lot of variables.......but I agree, it will end up being a very loud "brokered" convention.......

And for those of you that keep asking "how can the Super Delegates NOT go with the popular vote of the states"........They would NOT be Super Delegates if they HAD TO go with the popular vote of the state. A Super Delegate has the ability to vote "their" heart, conviction, whatever you want to call it....they DO NOT have to vote the majority. That is why they are Super Delegates.

But even with that, I'm sure we will have this debate once again....lol

It should also be noted that Pledged delegates don't even have to vote the way the state voted. They can change if they personally want to. They are expected to vote as instructed - but its not legally binding...

[StorminNorman]

This book I've GOT to read. :D


:doom: :doom: :doom:

Its called "Blacklisted by History" and is on my "To By List" as soon as I have money. :(

[Matt]

but then, you already disliked Obama, this just conveniently underscores your views. I asked you many times before if Obama was a racist you said you didn't know, but NOW, you seem very sure that he is a racist.
that's weird to me.
then all the members of the 700 club are homophobes and Islamophobes right?
because surely, being a member of an organization run by Pat Robertson makes you agree with HIM on all things and subjects.
I mean, I hate pat robertson and even I haven't made that HUUUUUUUGE leap in logic, perhaps because I'm not politically motivated.
you wanted Obama to loose, and I understand that, but you perhaps should be more concerned about highlighting his actual shortcomings rather than fabricating some dark racist agenda.
because I'd call ******** on THAT.


I've already highlighted his short comings on numerous occassions. Why would I come into a thread about Barack Obama's speech about his pastor and say "Hey! I disagree with Obama's policy on taxation for this reason!" That's off topic. My disagreements with Obama's policy is well outlined in the Barack Obama thread. Feel free to read it there.

[Darthphere]

Rev. Wright was just advising Obama on his NCAA Basketball brackets. He made him choose Kansas, I can't have a President with that type of judgment.

[Matt]

Please, you think this is all he talked about? You keep saying hes been hearing this stuff for 20 years but the sermons are all from within the last 5.

Obama is too damn hopeful and optimistic and intereacts way too well and naturally with white people to have some real huge inner hate of them within him.

Of course he is infront of cameras! How many politicans do you think really say what they think infront of a television camera? Unless you know Barack Obama personally, you have no grounds to refute any claim of racism. Meanwhile, we have evidence that in his personal life he attended a church, which was led by an incredibly racist pastor.

[Matt]

You don't have to just attend the Westboro Bapist Church to be taught that being gay is wrong, the large majority of Catholic Churches preach that, does that mean that's all they preach or that the large majority of Catholics are homophobes? Of course not. Just like I'm sure every week at the church Obama attends doesn't preach hatred towards white america. Maybe that week something truly distrubing happened in the area that caused Wright to go on the tirade. Have we even heard anything from Wright regarding the "God Damn America" sermon? Also why is this just coming out now, if this pastor has been giving these sermons for 20 years why hasn't anyone brought it up yet? Hmmm, someone on the Hillary campaign gets caught saying something racially insensitive, all the sudden we find someone close to Obama doing the same thing, seems a little fishy to me.

I've gone to Catholic Church my entire life, and not once have I heard a priest say anything like "Goddamn gays!" "9/11 happened to punish gays!" etc. If my priest did talk like that, I would leave the church and not look back. Find a new parish. The worst I have ever heard is the Sodom and Gomorrah story, and afterwards, the priest spoke of how it is important to love homosexuals anyway as God does, even if they sin.

As for why it just came into the spotlight now, because this is the first time anyone would care. 3 years ago no one would give a crap about Wright. They care because he is Barack Obama's pastor for 20 years and that makes it relevant. And no, this isn't an isolated incident. We have members of the parish saying that Pastor Wright does this in at least half of his sermons each year. We have transcripts of various lectures by Pastor Wright. The church sold greatest hit DVDs with these kinds of rants on them. Hardly isolated.

[ObakeTora]

Ugh! The whole Obama's pastor controversy shows what morons Americans really are. Blacks in this country have a history of never been given fair treatment what with slavery ( a blatant hypocrisy being that this country was built on so called Christian values) civil rights, and just flat out bad service at Denny's. But we still stand up and fight for this ******** ass country! You know when the Bush clan was running for the white house why didn't Americans make a big deal over the fact that Prescott Bush helped Hitler rise to power? So Obama; a grown ass man, can't think for himself? Basically I beleive pastor basically was speaking the truth!!! What, Americans think they are going to elect a house negro with Obama? You know, I really hate my country sometimes. I have ancestors who were oppressed yet defended this ****~ing place in every single war from the Revolutionary to the present, and I'm still here, never leaked secrets to the Russians or Chinese out of retaliation, no my only crime was playing my music to loud and breathing while black. And now Obama can't think for himself, this is the kind of ******** thats going to always pop whenever a person of color has a chance to get elected.

[Matt]

Wright is going to tell a huge room full of black strgangers who have suffered from things such as unequal oppritunity, ect. things that are very different from what he tells Barack Obama, his affluent Harvard grad friend.

I'm white and even I felt patronized by that statement.

[StorminNorman]

Ugh! The whole Obama's pastor controversy shows what morons Americans really are. Blacks in this country have a history of never been given fair treatment what with slavery ( a blatant hypocrisy being that this country was built on so called Christian values) civil rights, and just flat out bad service at Denny's. But we still stand up and fight for this ******** ass country! You know when the Bush clan was running for the white house why didn't Americans make a big deal over the fact that Prescott Bush helped Hitler rise to power? So Obama; a grown ass man, can't think for himself? Basically I beleive pastor basically was speaking the truth!!! What, Americans think they are going to elect a house negro with Obama? You know, I really hate my country sometimes. I have ancestors who were oppressed yet defended this ****~ing place in every single war from the Revolutionary to the present, and I'm still here, never leaked secrets to the Russians or Chinese out of retaliation, no my only crime was playing my music to loud and breathing while black. And now Obama can't think for himself, this is the kind of ******** thats going to always pop whenever a person of color has a chance to get elected.

Michelle...is that you?

[Darthphere]

Ugh! The whole Obama's pastor controversy shows what morons Americans really are. Blacks in this country have a history of never been given fair treatment what with slavery ( a blatant hypocrisy being that this country was built on so called Christian values) civil rights, and just flat out bad service at Denny's. But we still stand up and fight for this ******** ass country! You know when the Bush clan was running for the white house why didn't Americans make a big deal over the fact that Prescott Bush helped Hitler rise to power? So Obama; a grown ass man, can't think for himself? Basically I beleive pastor basically was speaking the truth!!! What, Americans think they are going to elect a house negro with Obama? You know, I really hate my country sometimes. I have ancestors who were oppressed yet defended this ****~ing place in every single war from the Revolutionary to the present, and I'm still here, never leaked secrets to the Russians or Chinese out of retaliation, no my only crime was playing my music to loud and breathing while black. And now Obama can't think for himself, this is the kind of ******** thats going to always pop whenever a person of color has a chance to get elected.

Yeah, we're the morons. :up::whatever:

[Matt]

Ugh! The whole Obama's pastor controversy shows what morons Americans really are. Blacks in this country have a history of never been given fair treatment what with slavery ( a blatant hypocrisy being that this country was built on so called Christian values) civil rights, and just flat out bad service at Denny's. But we still stand up and fight for this ******** ass country! You know when the Bush clan was running for the white house why didn't Americans make a big deal over the fact that Prescott Bush helped Hitler rise to power? So Obama; a grown ass man, can't think for himself? Basically I beleive pastor basically was speaking the truth!!! What, Americans think they are going to elect a house negro with Obama? You know, I really hate my country sometimes. I have ancestors who were oppressed yet defended this ****~ing place in every single war from the Revolutionary to the present, and I'm still here, never leaked secrets to the Russians or Chinese out of retaliation, no my only crime was playing my music to loud and breathing while black. And now Obama can't think for himself, this is the kind of ******** thats going to always pop whenever a person of color has a chance to get elected.

No one is saying Obama did not think for himself. In fact, what I am asking for is Obama to answer what the hell he was thinking.

Why did Obama choose to go to a church for 20 years if he disagreed so much with Pastor Wright? He called Pastor Wright's comments offensive and wrong yet he sat and listened to them for 20 years. He has not answered why? Why did he expose his children to a man who said such hate filled things? Why did he name such a man his spiritual advisor? Why did Senator Obama LIE when this story first broke? These are the answers people want. None of which are about Wright's beliefs. They are about Obama's.

[Mr Sparkle]

A book recently emerged that McCarthy wasn't nearly as bad as history portrays (or portrayed) him.



Lord knows McCarthyism is a misunderstood period in US history.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[StorminNorman]

Lord knows McCarthyism is a misunderstood period in US history.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

According to a historian that has researched the subject far more extensively than you ever will - yes, McCarthy is horribly misunderstood and unfairly demonized by history.

[Tron5000]

I'm not oversimplifying things, the guy that wrote that article is. And he is standing during the anthem, is he not. That is respecting the flag. I haven't stood for the pledge since 11th grade, and rarely stand for the anthem, that doesn't mean I hate America. I just find the whole thing cliche. And yes, you have the right to ask questions. I just find this whole mess to be very petty.

As for the conservative media. It's sickening. Bush's grandfather plotted to overthrow the government. His family has had ties to dictatorships for decades. Bush himself took a big ol' steaming crap on the constitution. None of the conservative pundits ever accuse Bush of being anti-american.

You find it "cliche" to salute the flag of your country, the flag under which millions of men and women have fought and died to make possible all the liberties that you enjoy in this nation? Rising and placing your hand over your heart when America's national anthem is played or sung is "cliche"?

Got it.

[SuBe]

According to a historian that has researched the subject far more extensively than you ever will - yes, McCarthy is horribly misunderstood and unfairly demonized by history.
Those who Write the history, makes the history Fact.

Who writes the Text Books?

[Mr Sparkle]

According to a historian that has researched the subject far more extensively than you ever will - yes, McCarthy is horribly misunderstood and unfairly demonized by history.

oh noes! the " researched it more extensively than you!" card.
what shall I do! I guess since Mel Gibson researched the Holocaust more than me and he's a holocaust denier, the Holocaust never happened!:o

I feel so ashamed.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

[Super_Ludacris]

Loving your country shouldnt be something forced upon you.

Pledging dont define my patriotism.

[bell110]

You find it "cliche" to salute the flag of your country, the flag under which millions of men and women have fought and died to make possible all the liberties that you enjoy in this nation? Rising and placing your hand over your heart when America's national anthem is played or sung is "cliche"?

Got it.

Yes.

If I'm at some formal thing, I would. But if I'm at some local redneck event, I don't bother. It's lame, just like putting that stupid magnetic ribbon on your car. And really, saying the pledge in school. Kids aren't doing it because they are actually pledging their allegence. They're doing to because they have to.

[Tron5000]

Loving your country shouldnt be something forced upon you.

No, it shouldn't. Love for your country should be volunteered because of all this nation has done for you.

[Mr Sparkle]

No, it shouldn't. Love for your country should be volunteered because of all this nation has done for you.

and loving your country should be done in the same way as everyone else right?

[Mr Sparkle]

BTW, I can't believe people in this day and age are defending Joseph McCarthy.
it's just.....wow, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[StorminNorman]

oh noes! the " researched it more extensively than you!" card.
what shall I do! I guess since Mel Gibson researched the Holocaust more than me and he's a holocaust denier, the Holocaust never happened!:o

I feel so ashamed.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

Except for that most leading historians agree with most of the points Evan's makes - especially about his success in outing communist sympathizers. Evan's book simply goes more into detail about defending other aspects of McCarthy - such as him lying about his service in WWII and his alcoholism.

Also - Gibson's father is a holocaust denier, Gibson, himself- has never claimed to be.

[StorminNorman]

BTW, I can't believe people in this day and age are defending Joseph McCarthy.
it's just.....wow, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I hated McCarthy, until I started reading about how many of his accusations were proved to be true (which is historically accepted), after this book - I found even more pity for McCathy and his portrayal in history. Again - I am trusting a man who has devoted years of his life to studying this period, over your thought on the issue.

[Mr Sparkle]

Except for that most leading historians agree with most of the points Evan's makes - especially about his success in outing communist sympathizers. Evan's book simply goes more into detail about defending other aspects of McCarthy - such as him lying about his service in WWII and his alcoholism.

Also - Gibson's father is a holocaust denier, Gibson, himself- has never claimed to be.

well, I don't know about this " most leading Historians" there have been notable anti-revisionists when It comes to McCarthy and while I have NO DOUBT that the hearings turned up communist sympathizers, this of course doesn't mean that it was an appropriate tactic.

and I'm sure Gibson means well, of course I was joking, but you already knew that.

uh.

didn't you?:huh:

[Mr Sparkle]

I hated McCarthy, until I started reading about how many of his accusations were proved to be true (which is historically accepted), after this book - I found even more pity for McCathy and his portrayal in history. Again - I am trusting a man who has devoted years of his life to studying this period, over your thought on the issue.

well, to be fair it all depends on how you define " communist sympathizer".
and let's remember that the hearings mostly based themselves upon the assumption that violent overthrowing of the US government was INHERENT in the communist party doctrine.
and were it only about defending the country, but it extended to entertainment and several other things.
I have many friends that during their younger years went to all sorts of meetings, communist, gnostic, Buddhist, Hare Krishna.
the assumption is that if you once held membership in a given organization you are their puppet for life, anyone with more than 5 years on this planet knows this to be false, do they not?
to advocate for McCarthy based upon a book and ignoring the years of actual history and blacklisting? INsanity.
I don't see why you have to make this about me though.:huh: it's really weird about your fixation.
Ann Coulter has devoted countless years to defending McCarthy as well so?

I'm not about to start stumping for him anytime soon.

[StorminNorman]

to advocate for McCarthy based upon a book and ignoring the years of actual history and blacklisting? INsanity.
I don't see why you have to make this about me though.:huh: it's really weird about your fixation.
Ann Coulter has devoted countless years to defending McCarthy as well so?

I'm not about to start stumping for him anytime soon.

I understand that history is often skewed to one side of the issue, the idea of McCarthy being demonized by his opponents after the fact is certainly not unbelievable.

The idea of decades of perception about a historical figure being undone because of books years later is not unheard of. Truman, as I am sure you know, for years was looked upon with great disgust. It wasn't until years later that biographies and historical books were written that praised Truman and placing him amongst the greatest Presidents in American history.

You made it about you when you simply dismissed the book because it went against what you believe from whatever readings you have done. It shows a bit of arrogance to simply dismiss six years of work simply because you believe McCarthy to be a despicable man.

Ann Coulter has, of course, no credibility. That does not mean she is necessarily incorrect when she defended McCarthy - only that I wasn't going to really listen to her. She brought that upon herself. For a noted historian to defend McCarthy is a far different subject entirely as he has the credibility that Coulter does not - the fact that he mentions many of the same arguments Coulter uses is not to his detriment.

[The Senator]

Its not the fact that they hate those kinds of people because a lot of people dislike gay men; most straight males I have met generally do wether they admit it or not-they laugh at gay jokes, take offense if a gay guy even looks at them funny-but guess what? Thats all OK.

So, is making fun of African Americans for the way they look or talk okay as well? :huh:

Because if it's perfectly fine to laugh at gay jokes or take offense because one of us looks at you funny, then it must certainly be okay to make stereotypical jokes about other races or feel offended if an African American or Hispanic man looks at you. Or at least, that's what I'm getting from your statement there.

That sort of behavior, on both extremes, should not be tolerated under any circumstance. Whether it's making fun of a gay guy because he walks queerly, or demeaning an entire race of people, that sort of behavior only caters to ignorance. Same thing with going on rants about white folks and how all of them are trying to keep African Americans from reaching their full potential.

Maybe you can answer me this: Are the words we utter JUST words?

No. Especially when they aim to divide us. They are more than words. They are instruments of hate. Hate towards gays. Hate towards blacks. Hate toward people from all ends of the earth and all walks of life. None of it should be tolerated at all, whether it's in public or private. Otherwise, this discriminatory mindset many people have come to live by will never disappear.

[terry78]

PnT8Ubogdog

[bell110]

It makes me wonder if a few decades from now people will actually say that Bush was one of the great presidents.

[StorminNorman]

One of the greatest? No.

He will be looked upon far more favorably than he is now.

[Mr Sparkle]

I understand that history is often skewed to one side of the issue, the idea of McCarthy being demonized by his opponents after the fact is certainly not unbelievable.

the fact that something is not unbelievable doesn't necessarily make it plausible.

The idea of decades of perception about a historical figure being undone because of books years later is not unheard of. Truman, as I am sure you know, for years was looked upon with great disgust. It wasn't until years later that biographies and historical books were written that praised Truman and placing him amongst the greatest Presidents in American history.

and while Truman in my book is still iffy as a " great president" (Roosevelt FTW) he is certainly the product of his era, the fact that people might or might not be moved by different motivations now than 5 decades ago is something that we would have to examine in order to make a sound judgment no?

You made it about you when you simply dismissed the book because it went against what you believe from whatever readings you have done. It shows a bit of arrogance to simply dismiss six years of work simply because you believe McCarthy to be a despicable man.

you misunderstood, I don't know nor care about McCarthy as a man.
but McCarthyism is NOT misunderstood, and McCarthyism is not now, nor was it ever misunderstood.
the doctrines and practices that flourished in that era are quite reprehensible by any standards, I would make a comparison but I feel it would be too heavy handed.
my " arrogance " stems ironically from the same place McCarthyism found it's strength, moral certainty, you might or might not know, but overall, not only communists were targeted by the hearings but, also, suspected homosexuals, some historians argue that MORE homosexuals were targeted than suspected communists.
plus the aura of the era was one of fear and suspicion, the idea of promoting mistrust between neighbors, the informants and all that?
no amount of books are going to placate my moral outrage about that, it's a period to learn from certainly, but no, I don't feel like revising that, give it a good whitewash when I'm dead, but I don't want to see McCarthy or
McCarthyism praised in this day and age.


Ann Coulter has, of course, no credibility. That does not mean she is necessarily incorrect when she defended McCarthy - only that I wasn't going to really listen to her. She brought that upon herself. For a noted historian to defend McCarthy is a far different subject entirely as he has the credibility that Coulter does not - the fact that he mentions many of the same arguments Coulter uses is not to his detriment.

actually I'm sure they are not the same arguments, as Coulter uses a lot of emotional manipulation calling the conservatives to arms over the treacherous liberals.
my point is that simply because an argument is made, even by a credible source, doesn't mean I'm willing to ignore all other evidence.

[StorminNorman]

the fact that something is not unbelievable doesn't necessarily make it plausible.

However this is case where it is both believable and plausible.

and while Truman in my book is still iffy as a " great president" (Roosevelt FTW) he is certainly the product of his era, the fact that people might or might not be moved by different motivations now than 5 decades ago is something that we would have to examine in order to make a sound judgment no?

While I can't understand how one could not consider Truman a great President and yet consider FDR one, that is a separate argument entirely.

McCarthy, like Truman and Roosevelt, was a product of his era as well. McCarthy was entering Washington just as the threat of the Soviet Union was fulling being realized. We are only just recently gathering intelligence from the Soviet archives that support many McCarthy's claims about the Communists in America.

you misunderstood, I don't know nor care about McCarthy as a man.
but McCarthyism is NOT misunderstood, and McCarthyism is not now, nor was it ever misunderstood.
the doctrines and practices that flourished in that era are quite reprehensible by any standards, I would make a comparison but I feel it would be too heavy handed.

I was addressing the issue McCarthy the man, over what is accepted as "McCarthyism". McCarthyism is a term that describes absolutely indefensible conduct. That does not mean McCarthy, in reality, was not indefensible.

my " arrogance " stems ironically from the same place McCarthyism found it's strength, moral certainty, you might or might not know, but overall, not only communists were targeted by the hearings but, also, suspected homosexuals, some historians argue that MORE homosexuals were targeted than suspected communists.
plus the aura of the era was one of fear and suspicion, the idea of promoting mistrust between neighbors, the informants and all that?
no amount of books are going to placate my moral outrage about that, it's a period to learn from certainly, but no, I don't feel like revising that, give it a good whitewash when I'm dead, but I don't want to see McCarthy or
McCarthyism praised in this day and age.

To place the blame of the Red Scare solely on the shoes of Senator McCarthy, though, is incorrect. Again, while McCarthyism was named after the Senator - it does not necessarily mean the Senator was guilty of it. The term McCarthyism implies not only an overzealousness to out communists, or whatever group being targeted - but the accusing of innocent people. If the bulk of McCarthy's accused proved to be communists (again - as Venona and other Soviet Archives indicate) then he deserves to be, to a certain extent, vindicated.

actually I'm sure they are not the same arguments, as Coulter uses a lot of emotional manipulation calling the conservatives to arms over the treacherous liberals.
my point is that simply because an argument is made, even by a credible source, doesn't mean I'm willing to ignore all other evidence.

Having read the book where Ann Coulter defends McCarthyism, I do know that Blacklisted uses some of the same arguments (again, the Venona data, etc.) While I am not insisting that you should simply ignore all the other evidence, I am sensing a resistance to even consider the idea that McCarthy does not live up the the image you have in your head.

[Arkady Rossovich]

Well,

Its official.
The race to dig into Obama has begun.

His bigotted and ignorant pastor has seen to that.

I don't think so. The thing is,Obama is doing so well that anything about him or those near to him might be used as propaganda.:word:

[Matt]

Terry, I agree white people will never understand the kind of discrimination African Americans go through...but never the less. Is more discrimination really going to solve anything? Is constantly flaunting (for absolute lack of better word) your people's past suffering really going to fix the problems? We can only move forward, if we are not looking backwards. Right?

[Arkady Rossovich]

The speech was enough,it's a shame that Obama has to say he is sorry for what someone else said. But if he doesn't this might be used against him,like anything since he is such a threat.

[Matt]

Why can no one understand this basic point I have made a hundred times? I want to know questions about OBAMA'S actions, not Wright's. Things he failed to answer in his lovely speech. Such as why he went to a church for 20 years if he disagrees (as he claims) with what was being preached. Why he would expose his children to such hate speech. Why he lied when this scandal first broke. I could care less about Pastor Wright. I do care about getting such answers on OBAMA'S ACTIONS from the man who could be our next president.

[Kelly]

I don't think so. The thing is,Obama is doing so well that anything about him or those near to him might be used as propaganda.:word:


You can say that about any of the candidates whether they are doing bad or not.........when you run for public office, you stand the chance of skeleton's, real or not being brought out of the closet......its called politics......and unless you are "perfection incarnate" something will come out.

IMO, his only mistake in this whole thing was bringing the reverend into his inner circle for this campaign......

[Marx]

I don't think so. The thing is,Obama is doing so well that anything about him or those near to him might be used as propaganda.:word:

He doesn't appear to be doing all that well at the moment. He's slowly falling in the polls thanks to the Wright situation.

[wsox35]

I guess 20+ years of spewing hate earns you a trip to the White House.

http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clintonwright2ln3.jpg

[Excel]

So, is making fun of African Americans for the way they look or talk okay as well? :huh:

Unfortunately, yes. I was taught and will teach my children to have an open mind for themselves but to ALWAYS be respectful, no matter what it is...fact is not everybody is like that, towards gay or African Americans and I aint know what their reasoning is so it aint my place. Its somebodys opinion and theres nothing you can do to change that. THAT SAID, if their opinion is like that of the westboro church, kkk, black panthers, or what have you, they need to keep it to themselves and not let it affect their actions i.e. if your a homphobe, if you meet a gay man you still need to treat him with respect and decency. Its when your actions begin to reflect your thoughts that its a problem, and so far none of Obamas action have reflected any sort of racist mind.

They need to do whats publically and legally acceptable and respectable, anything less is wrong.

[The Senator]

I guess 20+ years of spewing hate earns you a trip to the White House.

http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clintonwright2ln3.jpg

There's a difference between inviting all of the religious leaders in the country to the White House, and appointing a man who spews vicious hate speech as a top adviser to your campaign.

This is the same thing as the photo of the Clintons with Tony Rezko. As President and First Lady, you're pretty much required to meet with people from all backgrounds, professions, etc. Taking a photo with someone or involving them in a conference attended by thousands of people is different from working for or having a personal and professional relationship with that person. That's why a photo of Bill and Hillary with Rezko does minimal damage, while working for Rezko and screwing hundreds of low-income citizens does considerable damage. That's why inviting Wright to attend a religious conference where all leaders from all faiths were invited does minimal damage, whereas taking personal advice and appointing Wright as your campaign's spiritual adviser does considerable damage.

They're two completely different things.

[Matt]

I'll ask you what I've asked everyone else Excel who says Obama's actions do not imply racism. If I went to a KKK rally (rally, nothing more, no lynchings, just hate speech) every week for 20 years and I never speak at the rallies, just listen, did I do anything wrong?

[lollycop]

Obama nailed it.

[wsox35]

I think that everybody should watch these in their full context, take it for what you will...

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