Discussion: Reverend Wright And The Fallout

[The Senator]

I think that everybody should watch these in their full context, take it for what you will...

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So what? That still doesn't forgive him for saying that the United States deserved to be attacked on 9/11 because of foreign policy disasters orchestrated by "white America." That doesn't excuse him for saying that innocent people who had nothing to do with U.S. foreign policy disasters abroad deserved to die at the hands of the terrorists on that day.

That's like showing a clip of Hitler saying "The Jews are a good people, they have good food and tell funny jokes" and following it up with "now let's murder their entire race because Germany has suffered long enough!" Whatever points or praise he gave America became irrelevant the moment he said that we deserved to be attacked.


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Again, so what? Slavery is over with in the United States. It's been gone for almost a century and a half. No one alive today has suffered because of slavery. Yes, it was a horrible practice. Yes, the United States should issue a formal apology for the horrible practice. But to say/ equate white America to the KKK for something which happened generations ago is disgusting. He has a valid point that some people haven't done enough to help the black community. But to tell his parishioners that the U.S. deserves to be damned for things which all of us have nothing to do with is a disgrace. It does nothing to ease race relations in the United States. It only lays blame on an entire race of people, most of which have no problem with African Americans whatsoever.

Yes, there are racists and bigots who exist across this country. Unfortunately, their crimes speak louder than all the good white folks have been doing as a whole. But Wright stoops to the same level as those white racists by saying that white people are united under the US of KKK-A, and shows that he's just as ignorant as they are.

Also, I'd like to point out that while my knowledge of the Bible is limited, no where in it does it say "God DAMN America."

[Lightning Strykez!]

This thread makes my head spin.

I'm learning so much about the way my fellow Hype colleagues think and...sometimes I'm frightened by what I find. :(

[Dorian Gray]

This thread makes my head spin.

I'm learning so much about the way my fellow Hype colleagues think and...sometimes I'm frightened by what I find. :(

:huh:
Because they criticize Obama? He's a politician comes with the territory.
Just becasue he's black doesn't mean he should be immune to criticism.

[comicgirl]

:huh:
Because they criticize Obama? He's a politician comes with the territory.
Just becasue he's black doesn't mean he should be immune to criticism.
of course...I think it's interesting that threads about Obama are always at the top. Why aren't the McCain or Hillary folks talking their choice up in independent threads?

[BlackLantern]

I would guess because the Hype demographic here is in a rebellious or liberal (or so they think) mindset.

[Matt]

I would guess because the Hype demographic here is in a rebellious or liberal (or so they think) mindset.

Yep. Frankly, a majority of Hypsters support Obama. That is what keeps his threads bumped. I can count the number of vocal Clinton supporters on the Hype on one hand. Meanwhile, Obama has dozens of vocal supporters on the Hype. It becomes a loop. Someone criticizes Obama, then each one of his supporters respond to the first person's criticism over and over. That person who made the criticism then responds to each of those people and they respond to the first person again, and so on and so on and so on. I call it, the circle of life. :cwink:

[Franklin Richards]

Yep. Frankly, a majority of Hypsters support Obama. That is what keeps his threads bumped. I can count the number of vocal Clinton supporters on the Hype on one hand. Meanwhile, Obama has dozens of vocal supporters on the Hype. Each one responding to the same one person's criticism over and over. That person who made the criticism then responds to each of those people and they respond to the first person again, and so on and so on and so on. I call it, the circle of life. :cwink:

I call it Saturday.


What gets me is that it seems like the Obama supporters are going to take their ball and go home if he doesn't get the nom. While I on the other hand will be voting for Obama with all my heart if Hillary doesn't get the nom.


Do you guys really want more Republican rule? Were the Clinton years so bad? I seem to remember Economic Nirvana back then.


Just seems bitter.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[comicgirl]

Why can no one understand this basic point I have made a hundred times? I want to know questions about OBAMA'S actions, not Wright's. Things he failed to answer in his lovely speech. Such as why he went to a church for 20 years if he disagrees (as he claims) with what was being preached. Why he would expose his children to such hate speech. Why he lied when this scandal first broke. I could care less about Pastor Wright. I do care about getting such answers on OBAMA'S ACTIONS from the man who could be our next president.Do you honestly think that everytime Obama was in church, the Pastor fired up w/kill all the white folks jargon?
Apparently, Bill Clinton thought he was good enough to "pray for forgiveness" with in '98 at the White House.

Those who were never for Obama are not going to be swayed by the speech. Period.

I think the comment he made that american working men
may not want to hear about affirmative action, thinking that other people have a right to steal their jobs. This doesn't make people racist, just afraid for their future to support their families. Woooot!

[Matt]

Do you honestly think that everytime Obama was in church, the Pastor fired up w/kill all the white folks jargon?
Apparently, Bill Clinton thought he was good enough to "pray for forgiveness" with in '98 at the White House.

Clinton had a **** load of spiritual leaders from the community there that day, not the same thing.

And according to people who attend the church, Pastor Wright ranted like this in about half of his sermons each year. So pretty good track record, I'd say.


Those who were never for Obama are not going to be swayed by the speech. Period.

And those who were for him in the first place could watch him kill an innocent man on live TV and still try to justify it.


I think the comment he made that american working men
may not want to hear about affirmative action, thinking that other people have a right to steal their jobs. This doesn't make people racist, just afraid for their future to support their families. Woooot!


It was great speech. It wasn't the speech he needed to give. I think we can agree that neither his detractors nor supporters will be swayed one way or another by this scandal or the speech. However, independents are...and Obama did not address the questions (stated in my numerous posts) that he needed to, in order to convince them.

[Matt]

I call it Saturday.


What gets me is that it seems like the Obama supporters are going to take their ball and go home if he doesn't get the nom. While I on the other hand will be voting for Obama with all my heart if Hillary doesn't get the nom.


Do you guys really want more Republican rule? Were the Clinton years so bad? I seem to remember Economic Nirvana back then.


Just seems bitter.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

The people who do this are people like Excel. People who know nothing about politics and could care less until Obama ran for president. If Obama does not win, they will just go back to not caring because they aren't voting on issues or what is best for our country, they are voting stupid reasons such as he has their skin color (Excel's words, not mine) or he makes good speeches. They could care less about the direction of our country. All they care about is getting what they want.

[comicgirl]

I call it Saturday.


What gets me is that it seems like the Obama supporters are going to take their ball and go home if he doesn't get the nom. While I on the other hand will be voting for Obama with all my heart if Hillary doesn't get the nom.


Do you guys really want more Republican rule? Were the Clinton years so bad? I seem to remember Economic Nirvana back then.


Just seems bitter.


:thing: :doom: :thing:Dude, some Hillary supporters are ready to snape and nape the party if Hil doesn't get the nom. I would prob. stay home if she got the nom, but that's based more on how she presented herself during the campaign. I'm tired of nasty, negative people. Politics will always be politics, but that doesn't mean I want to throw my lot in with a flame thrower.


I volunteer on a local contact HELP line. We get everything from reports of spousal/child abuse, people contemplating suicide to working parents asking for help because they have no food for their children after rent, etc. You always listen, give assistance....and most importantly hope. Hope's a good thing if you're lucky enough to meet person you spoke to down the road and the "skies have cleared" for them. I'm an optimist; gotta be. Hillary doesn't make me hopeful.

[BlackLantern]

I also said it a couple weeks ago....if Hilary gets the nom a lot of voters will just sit home because they will feel like nothing is ever going to change.

[comicgirl]

Anyone that gets an invite to the White House would have their records gone over, left to right. Would that mean that 10 yrs ago, Wright was "acceptable"? I think he's a stupid ##$%$#, but was there nothing before this?



PS - Those are his words............not Obama's, dude.

[terry78]

Another Angry Black Preacher





Who's Blogging
» Links to this article
By E. J. Dionne Jr.
Friday, March 21, 2008; Page A17

Let's ask the hard question about the Rev. Jeremiah Wright: Is he as far outside the African American mainstream as many of us would like to think?

Because Barack Obama's speech on race in America was so candid about both the legitimacy of black and white grievances -- and the flaws in those grievances -- it carried the risk of offending almost everyone.

A man who, by parentage, is half black and half white took it upon himself to explain each side's story to the other. Obama resembled no one so much as the conciliatory sibling in a large and boisterous family, shouting: "Please, please, will you listen to each other for a sec?"

One of the least remarked upon passages in Obama's speech is also one of the most important -- and the part most relevant to the Wright controversy. There is, Obama said, a powerful anger in the black community rooted in "memories of humiliation and doubt" that "may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends" but "does find voice in the barbershop or the beauty shop or around the kitchen table. . . . And occasionally it finds voice in the church on Sunday morning, in the pulpit and in the pews."

Yes, black people say things about our country and its injustices to each other that they don't say to those of us who are white. Whites also say things about blacks privately that they don't say in front of their black friends and associates.

One black leader who was capable of getting very angry indeed is the one now being invoked against Wright. His name was Martin Luther King Jr.

An important book on King's rhetoric by Barnard College professor Jonathan Rieder, due out next month, offers a more complex view of King than the sanitized version that is so popular, especially among conservative commentators. In "The Word of the Lord Is Upon Me," Rieder -- an admirer of King -- notes that the civil rights icon was "not just a crossover artist but a code switcher who switched in and out of idioms as he moved between black and white audiences."

Listen to what King said about the Vietnam War at his own Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta on Feb. 4, 1968: "God didn't call America to engage in a senseless, unjust war. . . . And we are criminals in that war. We've committed more war crimes almost than any nation in the world, and I'm going to continue to say it. And we won't stop it because of our pride and our arrogance as a nation. But God has a way of even putting nations in their place." King then predicted this response from the Almighty: "And if you don't stop your reckless course, I'll rise up and break the backbone of your power."

If today's technology had existed then, I would imagine the media playing quotations of that sort over and over. Right-wing commentators would use the material to argue that King was anti-American and to discredit his call for racial and class justice. King certainly angered a lot of people at the time.

I cite King not to justify Wright's damnation of America or his lunatic and pernicious theories but to suggest that Obama's pastor and his church are not as far outside the African American mainstream as many would suggest. I would also ask my conservative friends who praise King so lavishly to search their consciences and wonder if they would have stood up for him in 1968.

These are realities that Obama has forced us to confront, and they are painful. Wright was operating within a long tradition of African American outrage, which is one reason Obama could not walk away from his old pastor in the name of political survival. Obama's personal closeness to Wright would have made such a move craven in any event.

I'm a liberal, and I loathe the anti-American things Wright said precisely because I believe that the genius of our country is its capacity for self-correction. Progressivism and, yes, hope itself depend on a belief that personal conversion and social change are possible, that flawed human beings are capable of transcending their pasts and their failings.

Obama understands the anger of whites as well as the anger of blacks, but he's placed a bet on the other side of King's legacy that converted rage into the search for a beloved community. This does not prove that Obama deserves to be president. It does mean that he deserves to be judged on his own terms and not by the ravings of an angry preacher.

[Superman]

I call it Saturday.


What gets me is that it seems like the Obama supporters are going to take their ball and go home if he doesn't get the nom. While I on the other hand will be voting for Obama with all my heart if Hillary doesn't get the nom.


Do you guys really want more Republican rule? Were the Clinton years so bad? I seem to remember Economic Nirvana back then.


Just seems bitter.


:thing: :doom: :thing:If Hillary gets the nom I'll be the first in line to vote for her. Just because I want Obama to get the nom doesn't mean I won't vote if he doesn't get it. I think that when it all comes down to it, in the end, alot of Dems will do the same.

I believe Hillary would do a fine job as President, I just think Obama would be better and that he would win alot easier against McCain.

If Hillary gets it the Right will rally behind McCain in masses just because they HATE Hillary so much. I'm not sure that even the mighty Clinton machine can beat that.

[comicgirl]

I also said it a couple weeks ago....if Hilary gets the nom a lot of voters will just sit home because they will feel like nothing is ever going to change.I hate to say it, because I love to vote. But, I just wouldn't be feeling it with Hillary.:csad: not right now, anyway

[comicgirl]

If Hillary gets the nom I'll be the first in line to vote for her. Just because I want Obama to get the nom doesn't mean I won't vote if he doesn't get it. I think that when it all comes down to it, in the end, alot of Dems will do the same.

I believe Hillary would do a fine job as President, I just think Obama would be better and that he would win alot easier against McCain.

If Hillary gets it the Right will rally behind McCain in masses just because they HATE Hillary so much. I'm not sure that even the mighty Clinton machine can beat that.good point, Sup. I think I'm going to stay way from the news for a while. All the barking, back and forth.:twisted:

[Kaleb]

I personally wasnt convinced by his speech.It just seemed like a glorified history lesson on race issues,cause it came from his mouth.

[comicgirl]

ugh....I thought we as a people (americans) were better than this. Love your theme song BTW....

[The Senator]

ugh....I thought we as a people (americans) were better than this. Love your theme song BTW....

I thought we as Americans knew how to elect leaders who weren't full of empty rhetoric and fantastical promises they can't keep. America just isn't where it should be these days.

[rdh007]

I thought we as Americans knew how to elect leaders who weren't full of empty rhetoric and fantastical promises they can't keep. America just isn't where it should be these days.
Really.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1199/1397780380_46e7243180_o.jpg
Then first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, holding a copy of the Clinton health-care plan, kicks off a three-state sales campaign during a visit to the Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore on Oct. 28, 1993.

[Darthphere]

Anyone that gets an invite to the White House would have their records gone over, left to right. Would that mean that 10 yrs ago, Wright was "acceptable"? I think he's a stupid ##$%$#, but was there nothing before this?



PS - Those are his words............not Obama's, dude.

According to Excel and the other Obama can do no wrong supporters, their excuse was the Rev Wright only started preaching about things like that 5 years ago, making your point irrelevant and weak. YAY! Logic.

[Tron5000]

“The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign."

2 days later:

"Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes."

Liar. I call shenanigans on this guy.

[Tron5000]

Anyone that gets an invite to the White House would have their records gone over, left to right. Would that mean that 10 yrs ago, Wright was "acceptable"? I think he's a stupid ##$%$#, but was there nothing before this?



PS - Those are his words............not Obama's, dude.


“Don’t tell me words don’t matter! ‘I have a dream’, just words? ‘We hold these truths to be self evident that all me are created equal’ - just words? ‘We have nothing to fear but fear itself?’ - just words. Just speeches?...Don’t tell me words don’t matter!" - Barack Hussein Obama

Yes, Obama, words do indeed matter.

“I don't regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough." - William Ayers, terrorist, enemy of this nation and friend of and financial contributor to Obama.

"God damn America – that’s in the Bible – for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating us citizens as less than human. God damn America ..." - Jeremiah Wright, Obama's pastor, friend and trusted spiritual adviser for 20 years.

"Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community ... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love." - James Cone, black liberation "theologist" and the man on whose beliefs Jeremiah Wright has based his own.

These words DO matter. A lot.

[bell110]

I'm not even an Obama supporter. I just think it's sad that he's being thrown in the fire over this. Especially by the right wing media. Bush is 10x worse and they do nothing but make excuses for him. They're just eating this up right now.

[Tron5000]

I'm not even an Obama supporter. I just think it's sad that he's being thrown in the fire over this. Especially by the right wing media. Bush is 10x worse and they do nothing but make excuses for him. They're just eating this up right now.

I think it's sad that you think "he's being thrown in the fire."

There are questions this man needs to answer and has thus far refused to do so.

The fact that Obama is still a member in good standing at Trinity United Church means that he prefers the company of people who agree with Jeremiah Wright's comments to those that do not.

[Zen]

I think it's sad that you think "he's being thrown in the fire."

There are questions this man needs to answer and has thus far refused to do so.

The fact that Obama is still a member in good standing at Trinity United Church means that he prefers the company of people who agree with Jeremiah Wright's comments to those that do not.

How do you reconcile the words of McCains pastor?

how do you not see McCains blunders over Al-quaeda, iran and iraq... over the past couple of days... As worse then this?

shouldn't awareness of reality mean something? at least as much as guilt by association with these comments by the pastor?

as to your calling shenanigans, i don't see how those two statements can't coexist. he didnt hear those paticular statements, though he has heard some controversial rhetoric before






So what? That still doesn't forgive him for saying that the United States deserved to be attacked on 9/11 because of foreign policy disasters orchestrated by "white America." That doesn't excuse him for saying that innocent people who had nothing to do with U.S. foreign policy disasters abroad deserved to die at the hands of the terrorists on that day.

That's like showing a clip of Hitler saying "The Jews are a good people, they have good food and tell funny jokes" and following it up with "now let's murder their entire race because Germany has suffered long enough!" Whatever points or praise he gave America became irrelevant the moment he said that we deserved to be attacked.



Again, so what? Slavery is over with in the United States. It's been gone for almost a century and a half. No one alive today has suffered because of slavery. Yes, it was a horrible practice. Yes, the United States should issue a formal apology for the horrible practice. But to say/ equate white America to the KKK for something which happened generations ago is disgusting. He has a valid point that some people haven't done enough to help the black community. But to tell his parishioners that the U.S. deserves to be damned for things which all of us have nothing to do with is a disgrace. It does nothing to ease race relations in the United States. It only lays blame on an entire race of people, most of which have no problem with African Americans whatsoever.

Yes, there are racists and bigots who exist across this country. Unfortunately, their crimes speak louder than all the good white folks have been doing as a whole. But Wright stoops to the same level as those white racists by saying that white people are united under the US of KKK-A, and shows that he's just as ignorant as they are.

Also, I'd like to point out that while my knowledge of the Bible is limited, no where in it does it say "God DAMN America."

Wright = hitler?? carefull with the analogies man.

why do you think we were attacked?

do you deny widespread latent racism?



he did not equate america to the kkk in that video :huh:

i saw a thoughtful and relatively inflamatory illustration on governmental practices, references to policy and presidents...branches of government. i saw references to relatively valid points in our country's history... he referenced different points of failure of great western empires. he said there were times when government was good, and times when it was bad... he listed off the bad times, and condemned the actions pretty loudly.

i think its a bit careless to ignore all the good will we have done and the principles this great nation was founded on... but the negative points grouped together (albeit painting a narrow view in some respect)

were truthfull... and if hes mad about it enough to say god damn america... so be it

i mean this guy may not have lived through slavery but he DID live through some tough labor pains which eventually lead to civil rights. Obama addressed that in his speech... i don't see how we can disown him because of his experiences. just as he doesnt reference some of the good america has done in that paticular speech... im sure you are also not hearing some of the things he likes and loves about america.

seeing the "god damn america" quote in context passifies it on a large scale... for me.

and the bible says not to kill innocents lest you be damned.

we kill innocents to this day... some in extreme manners, and some in a softer sense of callateral damage.

[Tron5000]

How do you reconcile the words of McCains pastor?

how do you not see McCains blunders over Al-quaeda, iran and iraq... over the past couple of days... As worse then this?

shouldn't awareness of reality mean something? at least as much as guilt by association with these comments by the pastor?

as to your calling shenanigans, i don't see how those two statements can't coexist. he didnt hear those paticular statements, though he has heard some controversial rhetoric before

Yeah. He was absent that day, never saw the DVD, never heard the other people in his church refer to these statements, never heard these things from Wright in private...Yeah. Once again: shenanigans.

[bell110]

I think it's sad that you think "he's being thrown in the fire."

There are questions this man needs to answer and has thus far refused to do so.

The fact that Obama is still a member in good standing at Trinity United Church means that he prefers the company of people who agree with Jeremiah Wright's comments to those that do not.

I believe he did answer the questions. Just because they weren't the answers you wanted doesn't mean he didn't answer them. And yes, I believe the hypocracy of the right is really sad. You don't?

[Zen]

Yeah. He was absent that day, never saw the DVD, never heard the other people in his church refer to these statements, never heard these things from Wright in private...Yeah. Once again: shenanigans.

what if he was absent that day?

how do you know how often he spoke of that paticular issue?

source it man.

[Matt]

what if he was absent that day?

how do you know how often he spoke of that paticular issue?

source it man.

Well, aside from the fact that the church sold greatest hit DVDs of Jerimiah Wright speaking this way. There are also transcripts of various other occurances, parishioners stating that Wright talks this way in about half of his sermons each year, and Obama's admission that he was aware that Wright does this.

[Tron5000]

I believe he did answer the questions. Just because they weren't the answers you wanted doesn't mean he didn't answer them. And yes, I believe the hypocracy of the right is really sad. You don't?

No, he has not. He needs to explain why he has attended for 20 years and not left a church where racist, anti-American sentiments are (according to church members) spewed on a regular basis. He needs to tell us why he thought it appropriate to appoint a man who believed and preached this hatred to a leadership position with his presidential campaign. He needs to explain why he was comfortable bringing this man into his "family" and allowing him to interact with his young daughters.

Have you heard him address these issues?

[Zen]

Well, aside from the fact that the church sold greatest hit DVDs of Jerimiah Wright speaking this way. There are also transcripts of various other occurances, parishioners stating that Wright talks this way in about half of his sermons each year, and Obama's admission that he was aware that Wright does this.


where are the transcripts?

[Tron5000]

what if he was absent that day?

how do you know how often he spoke of that paticular issue?

source it man.

So you would have me believe that a man who is running for president and must vet everyone closely associated with him was unaware of the statements made by his pastor and peddled in his church gift shop?

Fine, then let's assume Obama had absolutely no knowledge of this. If you really expect me to believe this, then that means Obama is an absolute moron and not fit to lead and make tough decisions for this nation.

[Tron5000]

where are the transcripts?

You're on the internet. You can find them. Or must everything be spoon-fed to you?

"Open up the hangar! Here comes the airplane!"

[Zen]

No, he has not. He needs to explain why he has attended for 20 years and not left a church where racist, anti-American sentiments are (according to church members) spewed on a regular basis. He needs to tell us why he thought it appropriate to appoint a man who believed and preached this hatred to a leadership position with his presidential campaign. He needs to explain why he was comfortable bringing this man into his "family" and allowing him to interact with his young daughters.

Have you heard him address these issues?

yes i have, i felt the speech adressed that.
im not just towing the line here

i felt the speech adequately adressed that. i do not think there is a plausible answer that you would accept because its only one way in your head.

you refuse to hear how he adressed the anger of his pastors generation.

you refuse to understand how a man can be loyal to the man who turned him to christ and still disagree with certain aspects of their dogma.

he addressed these things.

[Zen]

You're on the internet. You can find them. Or must everything be spoon-fed to you?

"Open up the hangar! Here comes the airplane!"

the burdon of proof does not lay with me.

and yet i look and cannot find them anyway.

cute. :cwink:

[Tron5000]

yes i have, i felt the speech adressed that.
im not just towing the line here

i felt the speech adequately adressed that. i do not think there is a plausible answer that you would accept because its only one way in your head.

you refuse to hear how he adressed the anger of his pastors generation.

you refuse to understand how a man can be loyal to the man who turned him to christ and still disagree with certain aspects of their dogma.

he addressed these things.

If you heard the answers to the questions I posted above, then you were listening to a completely different speech than I was.

Why has he stayed at this church? Why is he so close to Wright? Why did he allow him to so closely associate with his family?

[The Senator]

Wright = hitler?? carefull with the analogies man.

People are saying Wright's words don't matter. There are people in history who have said similar, hateful things....


why do you think we were attacked?

do you deny widespread latent racism?

I know why we were attacked. There's no doubt in my mind we were attacked because of our somewhat questionable policies in the Middle East during the 1980s and 1990s. I'm not denying that.

But innocent people did not deserve to die at the hands of those hijackers. No argument, whatsoever, justifies what Wright said. Just because the American government has blood on their hands, doesn't mean that the American people have blood on their hands.

Anyone who thinks we deserved to be attacked on 9/11 should be considered friends of the terrorists, in my opinion.

As for your comment on widespread racism... I have never denied it. And if you read the post I wrote, you would have seen the sentence where I say that racism still exists in this country. But racism exists in this country on all fronts, whether you're a white man who hates black folks or a black man who hates white folks. What Rev. Wright has said is just as racist as some of the things white folks have said about African Americans.

The point I've been making-- and few people have actually paid attention to the point, it seems-- is that we have advanced as a society to a point where most of us don't see people based on the color of their skin. Most of us judge people based on their character. There are still prevalent cases of racism across the country today. However, the majority of us white folks have done nothing to demean African Americans. That's why Wright's comments are ludicrous-- he insinuates that all of white America is working together to keep the black man down, which is undeniably false.



he did not equate america to the kkk in that video :huh:

Nope. But he certainly did elsewhere.


i saw a thoughtful and relatively inflamatory illustration on governmental practices, references to policy and presidents...branches of government. i saw references to relatively valid points in our country's history... he referenced different points of failure of great western empires. he said there were times when government was good, and times when it was bad... he listed off the bad times, and condemned the actions pretty loudly.

i think its a bit careless to ignore all the good will we have done and the principles this great nation was founded on... but the negative points grouped together (albeit painting a narrow view in some respect)

were truthfull... and if hes mad about it enough to say god damn america... so be it

i mean this guy may not have lived through slavery but he DID live through some tough labor pains which eventually lead to civil rights. Obama addressed that in his speech... i don't see how we can disown him because of his experiences. just as he doesnt reference some of the good america has done in that paticular speech... im sure you are also not hearing some of the things he likes and loves about america.
.

Rev. Wright can say whatever he wants to say, as long as he's not a top adviser for someone who might become the next President of the United States. That's where I draw the line. Barack Obama hired Wright knowing what kind of horrible things the man said, and didn't care one bit about how Wright's words may offend the independent white voters who don't want to be singled out for stuff they had nothing to do.

Even if Wright has said good things about America... all of that becomes irrelevant the moment he starts attacking the country for things it has no control over. We have no control over what Whitey Jenkins from Georgia thinks. Those innocent people who died on 9/11 had no control over General So-and-so's decision to put bases on Middle Eastern soil. So he can say 'America is the greatest country I've ever lived in and I hope to live and die in this wonderful country,' but all of that deserves to be thrown out the window when he says things such as "God DAMN America!" or "the US of KKK-A."

seeing the "god damn america" quote in context passifies it on a large scale... for me.

and the bible says not to kill innocents lest you be damned.

And the Bible does not say, like Wright said, "God DAMN America." There's no justification for that, whatsoever. He can't even handle himself professionally at the pulpit!


we kill innocents to this day... some in extreme manners, and some in a softer sense of callateral damage

Regardless of that, innocent Americans do not deserve to die at the hands of extremists. I hope that doesn't need any more explanation.

[Memphis Slim]

Jmanspice: Regardless of that, innocent Americans do not deserve to die at the hands of extremists. I hope that doesn't need any more explanation.


On these boards??? That's asking too much...

[Zen]

[/B]


On these boards??? That's asking too much...

I've never seen a hypster advocate the death of americans

:huh:

[bell110]

I just don't feel the same sense of outrage as some people over this. I have friends that completely agree with Bush and friends that DON'T believe in evolution. While this, to me, is insane, they are still my friends and I wouldn't push them away because of their believes. And if Wright is so racist and anti-american, why does anybody go to his church. If people are going to lump Obama and Wrights believes as one and the same, you have to do it to ALL the people who attended that church.

[Zen]

People are saying Wright's words don't matter. There are people in history who have said similar, hateful things....



I know why we were attacked. There's no doubt in my mind we were attacked because of our somewhat questionable policies in the Middle East during the 1980s and 1990s. I'm not denying that.

But innocent people did not deserve to die at the hands of those hijackers. No argument, whatsoever, justifies what Wright said. Just because the American government has blood on their hands, doesn't mean that the American people have blood on their hands.

Anyone who thinks we deserved to be attacked on 9/11 should be considered friends of the terrorists, in my opinion.

As for your comment on widespread racism... I have never denied it. And if you read the post I wrote, you would have seen the sentence where I say that racism still exists in this country. But racism exists in this country on all fronts, whether you're a white man who hates black folks or a black man who hates white folks. What Rev. Wright has said is just as racist as some of the things white folks have said about African Americans.

The point I've been making-- and few people have actually paid attention to the point, it seems-- is that we have advanced as a society to a point where most of us don't see people based on the color of their skin. Most of us judge people based on their character. There are still prevalent cases of racism across the country today. However, the majority of us white folks have done nothing to demean African Americans. That's why Wright's comments are ludicrous-- he insinuates that all of white America is working together to keep the black man down, which is undeniably false.




Nope. But he certainly did elsewhere.



Rev. Wright can say whatever he wants to say, as long as he's not a top adviser for someone who might become the next President of the United States. That's where I draw the line. Barack Obama hired Wright knowing what kind of horrible things the man said, and didn't care one bit about how Wright's words may offend the independent white voters who don't want to be singled out for stuff they had nothing to do.

Even if Wright has said good things about America... all of that becomes irrelevant the moment he starts attacking the country for things it has no control over. We have no control over what Whitey Jenkins from Georgia thinks. Those innocent people who died on 9/11 had no control over General So-and-so's decision to put bases on Middle Eastern soil. So he can say 'America is the greatest country I've ever lived in and I hope to live and die in this wonderful country,' but all of that deserves to be thrown out the window when he says things such as "God DAMN America!" or "the US of KKK-A."



And the Bible does not say, like Wright said, "God DAMN America." There's no justification for that, whatsoever. He can't even handle himself professionally at the pulpit!



Regardless of that, innocent Americans do not deserve to die at the hands of extremists. I hope that doesn't need any more explanation.

1. i did not know that wright said americans Deserved to die, only that we shouldnt be surprised when people respond in the ways that they have. if he said americans deserved to die please help me understand that.

2. i think reverend wrights statements are inflamatory, and innapropriate but i guess i have missed the parts that were directly racist. ill continue to look for them however.

3. i do not think wright was talking about all of the american people... i felt he was talking about American government since its inception. im sorry.... i just didnt see how he was referencing all white people... i thought he was tlaking about white people in the government, which is categorically... the only people who have held office for 200 years (with some rare exceptions in the past couple decades)

4. this point of americans being completely innocent is ignorant. do i beleive anyone deserves to die? no... and i didnt see wright make that statement either. as to the american people having no control... we are the ones who elect the government. its a government by the people.

now i understand many are innocent through innaction, but honestly... we the people should stand up and have the courage to take responsibility for our governments actions, like adults.

taking responsibilty doesn't mean we deserve to die.

it means understanding how people can be inflamed enough to attack us.

it means being mature enough to understand how race relations are and continue to play out across this country.

i do no see wright advocating riots, goosestepping :whatever:, or general upheaval of any kind.

and the bible says if you kill an innocent you are damned. it also implies that non eof us are trully innocent.

the thing can trully be twisted anyway you want it to. strangely elastic article, that bible.

I will continue to look up his speeches for racist tones. so far im only seeing people conjouring racism out of his inflamatory rhetoric. but it could be because my defination of racism is different than others.

*shrug*

[The Senator]

now i understand many are innocent through innaction, but honestly... we the people should stand up and have the courage to take responsibility for our governments actions, like adults.


There's nothing we can do about that. We elect our officials, and they serve. The American people can't do much to get rid of our leaders. We can recall them... but it's hard to recall someone if they're incredibly popular, like Reagan was when he had us fightin' commies in Afghanistan, which paved the way for the Taliban to rise to power. Even then, though, no one could have foreseen that. It didn't happen overnight. And by the time the Taliban were funding Al Qaeda, Reagan and his buddies were long gone from the White House.

So no, the American people weren't responsible for the events which led to 9/11 directly, and there was nothing they could have done to prevent the attacks.

[Tron5000]

I just don't feel the same sense of outrage as some people over this. I have friends that completely agree with Bush and friends that DON'T believe in evolution. While this, to me, is insane, they are still my friends and I wouldn't push them away because of their believes. And if Wright is so racist and anti-american, why does anybody go to his church. If people are going to lump Obama and Wrights believes as one and the same, you have to do it to ALL the people who attended that church.

If you're trying to equate people "that DON'T believe in evolution" with those that preach hatred for America and its white citizens, you're way off base.

[Zen]

There's nothing we can do about that. We elect our officials, and they serve. The American people can't do much to get rid of our leaders. We can recall them... but it's hard to recall someone if they're incredibly popular, like Reagan was when he had us fightin' commies in Afghanistan, which paved the way for the Taliban to rise to power. Even then, though, no one could have foreseen that. It didn't happen overnight. And by the time the Taliban were funding Al Qaeda, Reagan and his buddies were long gone from the White House.

So no, the American people weren't responsible for the events which led to 9/11 directly, and there was nothing they could have done to prevent the attacks.

i think 9/11 had more to do with the solidification of saudi power than the taliban.... russia and reagan. that only produced Bin laden. not the context which lead the saudis to attack us on 9/11.

its the additude you have that will ensure the disconnect between the people and government.

i think our inability to influence our own government, is our own fault.

[Zen]

If you're trying to equate people "that DON'T believe in evolution" with those that preach hatred for America and its white citizens, you're way off base.

again, where did wright single out white citizens, did you mean to say government.... or have i missed something?

[redfirebird2008]

JMan, the "chickens are coming home to roost" was actually a quote from a white U.S. ambassador. It was taken out of context from his sermon.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/21/the-full-story-behind-rev-jeremiah-wrights-911-sermon/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

[Tron5000]

again, where did wright single out white citizens, did you mean to say government.... or have i missed something?

You may have missed his statement referring to this country as the "US of KKKA." I'm sure he meant nothing against white folks when saying that "rich white folks" run the country and would never allow a black man to become president.

[Darthphere]

Anderson Cooper would ass grab Obama given the chance.

[Tron5000]

JMan, the "chickens are coming home to roost" was actually a quote from a white U.S. ambassador. It was taken out of context from his sermon.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/21/the-full-story-behind-rev-jeremiah-wrights-911-sermon/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

"The chickens are coming home to roost" was actually a quote from Malcolm X following the assassination of JFK.

"Being an old farm boy myself, chickens coming home to roost never did make me sad; they've always made me glad."

[redfirebird2008]

Well Wright said he was quoting a white U.S. ambassador, and it turns out a white U.S. ambassador did in fact say it according to Roland Martin's reporting. The white U.S. ambassador was likely quoting Malcolm X when he said it.

[The Senator]

JMan, the "chickens are coming home to roost" was actually a quote from a white U.S. ambassador. It was taken out of context from his sermon.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/21/the-full-story-behind-rev-jeremiah-wrights-911-sermon/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

Oh... well... I guess that changes everything. :o

[redfirebird2008]

I'm watching the sermon on YouTube and Wright called the 9/11 victims "unarmed innocents" and he was asking what our response should be "in light of such an unthinkable act." Turns out he's NOT as insensitive as Fox News and the other media people have portrayed him.

[Mr Sparkle]

That's like showing a clip of Hitler saying "The Jews are a good people, they have good food and tell funny jokes" and following it up with "now let's murder their entire race because Germany has suffered long enough!" Whatever points or praise he gave America became irrelevant the moment he said that we deserved to be attacked.

the hell?
:huh: did you just compare this dude to Hitler?:huh:
man, you really ARE a Hillary supporter.
I really don't get it. it seems that this sermon is DEAD ON.
perspective. that's what he is saying.
"violence begats violence" are you really so dead set against this cat that you can't see the WISDOM of this sermon.
stupid things he said?
" black people jumping from rooftops" :huh: hahaha, what the hell? I saw white people jumping from the twin towers as well, and I'm sure Asians and Hispanics.
I think it's pretty implicit that he was distressed about this, never does he said " these people deserved to die"

Hitler? seriously?



Again, so what? Slavery is over with in the United States. It's been gone for almost a century and a half. No one alive today has suffered because of slavery. Yes, it was a horrible practice. Yes, the United States should issue a formal apology for the horrible practice. But to say/ equate white America to the KKK for something which happened generations ago is disgusting. He has a valid point that some people haven't done enough to help the black community. But to tell his parishioners that the U.S. deserves to be damned for things which all of us have nothing to do with is a disgrace. It does nothing to ease race relations in the United States. It only lays blame on an entire race of people, most of which have no problem with African Americans whatsoever.

Yes, there are racists and bigots who exist across this country. Unfortunately, their crimes speak louder than all the good white folks have been doing as a whole. But Wright stoops to the same level as those white racists by saying that white people are united under the US of KKK-A, and shows that he's just as ignorant as they are.

Also, I'd like to point out that while my knowledge of the Bible is limited, no where in it does it say "God DAMN America."


I have to admit to something.
since I didn't think this had anything to do with Obama, and now I know, now I know what he actually said " government change, sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad!" woah....controversy! " under Clinton the black people had an intelligent friend! but governments change!" hahahahaha! oh noes!:o
it's Jman is responding to different videos.
"governments fail" this is about hatred of the GOVERNMENT and people have been brainwashed into thinking love of government is love of country and it's the exact opposite.
the US is based upon discontent with government.
just so you know.
seems like this guy points out some uncomfortable truths about the US government that people just want to forget because it's " the past"
"god damned America as long as she acts like she is god and she is supreme"
seems like something a preacher would say.
man, thanks for the videos, I'll look for more, but so far, this convinced me, this is not worth the time being given to it, nor does it reflect poorly on Obama.
Obama to me now is an intelligent person, who is possibly lying about disagreement with the Pastor.
too bad he has too.
too bad about the flag pin as well.
stupid, stupid stuff.

[Darthphere]

Except that it's only one sermon.

[Tron5000]

Well Wright said he was quoting a white U.S. ambassador, and it turns out a white U.S. ambassador did in fact say it according to Roland Martin's reporting. The white U.S. ambassador was likely quoting Malcolm X when he said it.

So you believe that Wright quoting a white man makes his statements OK?

[redfirebird2008]

So you believe that Wright quoting a white man makes his statements OK?

No, I believe those trying to make Wright out to be happy about 9/11 are just as wrong in their claims as he is in some of his statements, namely the one about AIDS.

[Mr Sparkle]

"rich white folks" run the country and would never allow a black man to become president.

is this inaccurate?
do you think the US is NOT run by rich White Folks?
if this is not true, then why were people actually discussing the feasibility of Obama as a candidate " Is America ready for a Black president?" they said.
wow, seems a far cry from the color blind utopia all people here in the thread seem to live in.
but then, most people here are in their teens.
as little back as 20 years ago racism was still rampant in the US Rodney King?
he was a drug addicted idiot HOWEVER the cops who beat the **** out of him broke the law.
that's 1993 or something isn't it?

[Tron5000]

No, I believe those trying to make Wright out to be happy about 9/11 are just as wrong in their claims as he is in some of his statements, namely the one about AIDS.

I haven't seen anyone say Wright is "happy about 9/11," but I have seen many people outraged by his assertion that America was morally responsible for the attacks that were carried out on 9/11.

[The Senator]

its the additude you have that will ensure the disconnect between the people and government.

That's really hilarious. Because I think there's a huge disconnect going on with Obama supporters, who think all of our problems will be solved in the four to eight years he may serve as President. No one seems to be aware of how government works in this country. They think that just because you have a President who makes promises, everything will change. That isn't the case. You have to work with Congress. You have to work with foreign leaders. Change doesn't happen over night; it takes time. Many of his supporters seem to be under the impression that we'll be out of Iraq the moment he's elected President. The moment he's elected President, we'll have health care. Economic hardships will completely disappear. It'll rain money from the sky and everyone will dance in the street, hand in hand, and life will be so much better.

That isn't the case, folks. Obama faces just as many challenges as Clinton will face if he's elected President. Obama is put in a corner, too, because it is his strong liberal record and short Senate resume which will make it hard to reach across the political aisle and convince Republicans to vote for his proposed legislation. Do you really think he'll be able to pass health care reform, when the Republicans have blocking power on all pieces of legislation? Do you really think he'll get us out of Iraq, when most of his commanders will tell him that a mass pull out will not only destroy Iraq, but will put our troops in even more danger?

I'm not the only person with a disconnect-- in fact, I don't have much of a disconnect, because I know how this government works. I'm not an idealist, because idealism doesn't work in this country. You have to see things for how they really are, and you have to learn that you cannot dismantle an entire establishment or change things just because you say you will.

[Mr Sparkle]

According to Excel and the other Obama can do no wrong supporters, their excuse was the Rev Wright only started preaching about things like that 5 years ago, making your point irrelevant and weak. YAY! Logic.

which would make the 20 years plus argument and the Obama defense valid and strong.

YAY logic!

[Mr Sparkle]

I haven't seen anyone say Wright is "happy about 9/11," but I have seen many people outraged by his assertion that America was morally responsible for the attacks that were carried out on 9/11.

do you think the government of Iraq was " morally responsible " for the subsequent US invasion?

[Darthphere]

which would make the 20 years plus argument and the Obama defense valid and strong.

YAY logic!

Yeah, I said that before actually.:huh:

He still was there for those 5 years though.:o

[redfirebird2008]

Tron, why do you think they hate us? Could it be things like the Yam Kippur War, where we claimed to not have any affiliation with Israel and then got caught flying in weapons and supplies to Israel? Muslim extremists don't just hate us because of our freedom like George W. Bush says. That is both naive and misleading. In the eyes of Muslims, the land of Palestine and Israel is their rightful land, just like Jews believe the land of Israel and Palestine is their rightful land. It's a fight that has been going on for thousands of years, and what side are we on? Israel's. And what does that mean to extremist Muslims? We're just as much the enemy. Guilt by association, and in our case, it's deeper than that because we support Israel's military and always have.

[Darthphere]

Who is they?

[Tron5000]

Tron, why do you think they hate us? Could it be things like the Yam Kippur War, where we claimed to not have any affiliation with Israel and then got caught flying in weapons and supplies to Israel? Muslim extremists don't just hate us because of our freedom like George W. Bush says. That is both naive and misleading. In the eyes of Muslims, the land of Palestine and Israel is their rightful land, just like Jews believe the land of Israel and Palestine is their rightful land. It's a fight that has been going on for thousands of years, and what side are we on? Israel's. And what does that mean to extremist Muslims? We're just as much the enemy. Guilt by association, and in our case, it's deeper than that because we support Israel's military and always have.

So are you excusing the 9/11 attacks based on your above statements? Do you feel America is morally responsible for the loss of life that we suffered?

[Mr Sparkle]

Yeah, I said that before actually.:huh:

He still was there for those 5 years though.:o

but he DISAGREED.
if he had left the man after a 15 year close relationship that would be disloyalty.
that's the problem with politics pretty much everything you do can be used against you, as long as gullible people are there to eat it up.

[Tron5000]

And no, Muslim extremists don't hate us because of our freedom. They hate us because we are not a Muslim nation.

[Tron5000]

but he DISAGREED.
if he had left the man after a 15 year close relationship that would be disloyalty.
that's the problem with politics pretty much everything you do can be used against you, as long as gullible people are there to eat it up.

"Disloyalty"? No, leaving a church where hatred is preached on a regular basis is not "disloyalty." It is "sanity."

[redfirebird2008]

Nope, I'm not excusing it. Terrorism is NEVER the answer. Any time I see news of terrorist bombings in Iraq or Israel, it saddens me. They have twisted logic for their actions, but it all starts with something that even an anti-violence person like me can understand which is that the U.S. is pro-Israel and it pisses off the Muslim extremists. I cannot stand to see death and I am anti-war, anti-death penalty, anti-terrorism, and anti-abortion. I don't like to see violence or death of any kind, but that doesn't mean I don't see where their whackjob logic starts.

[Mr Sparkle]

And no, Muslim extremists don't hate us because of our freedom. They hate us because we are not a Muslim nation.

no they hate your government because it has military bases on Muslim Holy lands. and their support for Israel which was installed in the middle east after the second world war.
you know how I know this?
and I paraphrase David Cross here
because they ****ing said so!

[Darthphere]

but he DISAGREED.
if he had left the man after a 15 year close relationship that would be disloyalty.
that's the problem with politics pretty much everything you do can be used against you, as long as gullible people are there to eat it up.

He disagreed but stayed for 5 years anyway?:huh::huh::huh::huh::huh::huh:

[Mr Sparkle]

"Disloyalty"? No, leaving a church where hatred is preached on a regular basis is not "disloyalty." It is "sanity."

well, I have been forced to actually listen to his sermons and the more I hear the less the " hat speech" label fits he seems like an old school black fella ( you happen to have many an Old School white fella on your government by the way, racist people elected by the so-not racist people of the US, I'm sure that they were all black) and more like anti-government.
I didn't know you had to love the government.

oh, BTW

do you think the government of Iraq was " morally responsible " for the subsequent US invasion?

[The Senator]

the hell?
:huh: did you just compare this dude to Hitler?:huh:
man, you really ARE a Hillary supporter.

I didn't compare him to Hitler.

I said, 'this would be like Hitler saying...'

That's not a comparison. That's barely an analogy.

I said that words should be valued more than they are.

And Obama supporters should know this, considering he gave a rousing, widely covered performance of Gov. Deval Patrick's speech last month where he said that words do matter.

So, apparently words only matter when they're good. But when they're bad, they don't matter at all.



I have to admit to something.
since I didn't think this had anything to do with Obama, and now I know, now I know what he actually said " government change, sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad!" woah....controversy! " under Clinton the black people had an intelligent friend! but governments change!" hahahahaha! oh noes!:o
it's Jman is responding to different videos.
"governments fail" this is about hatred of the GOVERNMENT and people have been brainwashed into thinking love of government is love of country and it's the exact opposite.
the US is based upon discontent with government.
just so you know.
seems like this guy points out some uncomfortable truths about the US government that people just want to forget because it's " the past"
"god damned America as long as she acts like she is god and she is supreme"
seems like something a preacher would say.
man, thanks for the videos, I'll look for more, but so far, this convinced me, this is not worth the time being given to it, nor does it reflect poorly on Obama.
Obama to me now is an intelligent person, who is possibly lying about disagreement with the Pastor.
too bad he has too.
too bad about the flag pin as well.
stupid, stupid stuff.

I'm keeping Wright's words separate from what Obama thinks.

I've been doing that since this scandal broke, for the most part-- though I did question whether Obama may have been affected by this.

My argument is that Obama lacks judgment.

He should have known better than to hire Wright in the first place.

But he didn't.

I detest Wright's comments on their own. I'm not going to debate this with you if you can't see that it offends me to be referred to as a member of the KKK, or that I want to oppress the black man. I'm not going to debate this with you when he said that 9/11 was justified because of our foreign policy problems. And I'm certainly not going to debate this with you when you're taking my points and completely distorting them, thinking that I don't want to vote for Obama because of something his crazy pastor said. My decision has nothing to with what the man said. It has everything to do with flawed judgment. And we've put up with that too much over the past eight years.

[Mr Sparkle]

He disagreed but stayed for 5 years anyway?:huh::huh::huh::huh::huh::huh:

well of course.
otherwise all the people that support the 700 club are homophobes against what robertson decries as " the gay agenda" and he rails against feminism as well.

do you think that all the members of the 700 club are homophobes?

[redfirebird2008]

And no, Muslim extremists don't hate us because of our freedom. They hate us because we are not a Muslim nation.

Wrong. Iran and Iraq didn't get along when Saddam was in power. They were both Muslim nations. Sunnis and Shi'ites hate each other pretty much the same as they hate Christians and Jews. Al Qaeda is mostly a Wahabist organization, which is an extreme form of the Sunni branch of Islam. Wahabists hate anyone that's not a Wahabist, which means they even hate people within the Sunni branch of Islam. They consider the U.S. infidels just like they consider mainstream Sunnis and Shi'ites infidels. It's a very extreme form of Islam, basically like if a small branch of Christianity considered all the other branches of Christianity to be the equivalent of atheists.

[Tron5000]

well, I have been forced to actually listen to his sermons and the more I hear the less the " hat speech" label fits he seems like an old school black fella ( you happen to have many an Old School white fella on your government by the way, racist people elected by the so-not racist people of the US, I'm sure that they were all black) and more like anti-government.
I didn't know you had to love the government.

oh, BTW

Oh, Wright's just an "old school black fella." Nevermind. I guess he's not all that bad then.

[bell110]

If you're trying to equate people "that DON'T believe in evolution" with those that preach hatred for America and its white citizens, you're way off base.

You're right, people who hate america and people who don't believe in evolution can not be compared. Not believing in evolution is a LOT worse. :cwink:

[bell110]

You may have missed his statement referring to this country as the "US of KKKA." I'm sure he meant nothing against white folks when saying that "rich white folks" run the country and would never allow a black man to become president.


Exactly, he said rich white folk, not all white folks.

[Excel]

I'll ask you what I've asked everyone else Excel who says Obama's actions do not imply racism. If I went to a KKK rally (rally, nothing more, no lynchings, just hate speech) every week for 20 years and I never speak at the rallies, just listen, did I do anything wrong?

No. I would personally think less of you, but if you treated black people with kindness, decency, respect n everything you would treat a white person with, it really wouldn't matter if you did go to them, would it? Because whatever effect it had on you wasn't showing.

Obamas actions throughout his life outside of church show the opposite of a racist, which is why this issue is so pointless.

[Mr Sparkle]

I didn't compare him to Hitler.

I said, 'this would be like Hitler saying...'

That's not a comparison. That's barely an analogy.

I said that words should be valued more than they are.

And Obama supporters should know this, considering he gave a rousing, widely covered performance of Gov. Deval Patrick's speech last month where he said that words do matter.

So, apparently words only matter when they're good. But when they're bad, they don't matter at all.

I'm sorry, it's just that if a man gives a speech and then someone said " that would be like hitler saying....." I would tend to think they are comparing speeches.
my bad.
also, your analogy implied that at the end he wished for death upon someone and he doesn't, that would make your analogy flawed.
and the thing I have noticed, is that the more I hear his speeches, the less they are about America than they are about America's government.
again, I didn't know that to love the country you had to love it's government.
and, it's weird because now we are shifting gears to another dude.
we're talking about wright and that should be the topic, because I made some comparisons before and they were written off as Irrelevant.


I'm keeping Wright's words separate from what Obama thinks.

I've been doing that since this scandal broke, for the most part-- though I did question whether Obama may have been affected by this.

My argument is that Obama lacks judgment.

He should have known better than to hire Wright in the first place.

But he didn't.

I detest Wright's comments on their own. I'm not going to debate this with you if you can't see that it offends me to be referred to as a member of the KKK, or that I want to oppress the black man. I'm not going to debate this with you when he said that 9/11 was justified because of our foreign policy problems. And I'm certainly not going to debate this with you when you're taking my points and completely distorting them, thinking that I don't want to vote for Obama because of something his crazy pastor said. My decision has nothing to with what the man said. It has everything to do with flawed judgment. And we've put up with that too much over the past eight years.

hmm.
I'm not distorting any point you have made.
you have let emotion completely cloud YOUR judgment on this.
this all started for you because you were upset about the Ferraro thing and you have convinced yourself that it matters, when at first you pretty much said this was a " if they are going to do it" matter.
it has been weird for me to see that progression in you, but what the hell? in the end, this is all about the team spirit isn't it? everyone wants their team to win, you would however do well to remember that I have NO team.
I'm an outside observer to this.
outside of basic human intelligence I'm pretty dispassionate about it.

[redfirebird2008]

JMan, he didn't say 9/11 was justified. He called the victims "unarmed innocents" and the act itself "unthinkable." He also spoke with sadness when talking about how he felt seeing all those people jumping off the buildings. Stop propagating the idea that he said it was justified because he didn't. He quoted a white U.S. ambassador that said it. He pointed out the hypocrisy of our government.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

[Mr Sparkle]

Oh, Wright's just an "old school black fella." Nevermind. I guess he's not all that bad then.

wow, way to condense an argument and ignore all the other things in there.
also why do you keep ignoring this question.

do you think the government of Iraq was " morally responsible " for the subsequent US invasion?

does it need to be in a bigger font for you to see it?

do you think the government of Iraq was " morally responsible " for the subsequent US invasion?

maybe a different color?
do you think the government of Iraq was " morally responsible " for the subsequent US invasion?

maybe different font different color

do you think the government of Iraq was " morally responsible " for the subsequent US invasion?

[Tron5000]

No. I would personally think less of you, but if you treated black people with kindness, decency, respect n everything you would treat a white person with, it really wouldn't matter if you did go to them, would it? Because whatever effect it had on you wasn't showing.

Obamas actions throughout his life outside of church show the opposite of a racist, which is why this issue is so pointless.

So it's OK to hate a race of people in private, as long as you're nice to them in public? Got it.

[StorminNorman]

but he DISAGREED.
if he had left the man after a 15 year close relationship that would be disloyalty.
that's the problem with politics pretty much everything you do can be used against you, as long as gullible people are there to eat it up.

But you are assuming the rididiculous idea that Wright's hateful speeches started only 5 years ago.

The fact is that Wright's preachings are based (as stated on the Trinity United Website) off the teachings of James Hal Cone. This was a man who stated:

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. . . . Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.

[Tron5000]

wow, way to condense an argument and ignore all the other things in there.
also why do you keep ignoring this question.

do you think the government of Iraq was " morally responsible " for the subsequent US invasion?

does it need to be in a bigger font for you to see it?

do you think the government of Iraq was " morally responsible " for the subsequent US invasion?

maybe a different color?
do you think the government of Iraq was " morally responsible " for the subsequent US invasion?

maybe different font different color

do you think the government of Iraq was " morally responsible " for the subsequent US invasion?

No, and that has nothing to do with whether our government can be held culpable for 9/11.

[The Senator]

I'm sorry, it's just that if a man gives a speech and then someone said " that would be like hitler saying....." I would tend to think they are comparing speeches.
my bad.
also, your analogy implied that at the end he wished for death upon someone and he doesn't, that would make your analogy flawed.
and the thing I have noticed, is that the more I hear his speeches, the less they are about America than they are about America's government.
again, I didn't know that to love the country you had to love it's government.
and, it's weird because now we are shifting gears to another dude.
we're talking about wright and that should be the topic, because I made some comparisons before and they were written off as Irrelevant.




hmm.
I'm not distorting any point you have made.
you have let emotion completely cloud YOUR judgment on this.
this all started for you because you were upset about the Ferraro thing and you have convinced yourself that it matters, when at first you pretty much said this was a " if they are going to do it" matter.
it has been weird for me to see that progression in you, but what the hell? in the end, this is all about the team spirit isn't it? everyone wants their team to win, you would however do well to remember that I have NO team.
I'm an outside observer to this.
outside of basic human intelligence I'm pretty dispassionate about it.

In the very beginning, I said I was making this an issue because Ferraro's comments were nowhere near as bad, yet they were being called racist. And I wanted to see what Obama supporters thought about Wright, and I hoped they wouldn't practice a double standard here.

However, I also said that I detested Wright's comments. Once we started debating this... it became more issue-focused, rather than focused on 'vengeance.' Does that explain the progression better?

[Excel]

So it's OK to hate a race of people in private, as long as you're nice to them in public? Got it.

Pretty much. Your hate makes no difference as long as you don't show it in your actions. There are SO many people out there who are like this either against black people, gay people, what have you.

[Mr Sparkle]

no, not really it doesn't.
it has become a very personal issue for you, quite obviously.
and I understand why, it just think you need to emotionally remove yourself from this in order to more effectively asses the situation.
I don't mean that in a condescending way, I have caught myself doing the same thing and a friend of mine told me to do the exact thing I'm now telling you.
it has worked wonders for my mental processes.

[redfirebird2008]

So it's OK to hate a race of people in private, as long as you're nice to them in public? Got it.

Who ever said Obama or Wright hate white people? Wright pays to have white congregations bussed to his church for services. He is in a denomination that is predominantly white and has not withdrawn from it because he gets along with the white ADMINISTRATORS of the denomination. He is angry at the government, not at white individuals. Perhaps he needs to let go of the past, such as the segregation he knew for the first 20+ years of his life, but that is different from hating white people in general. I'm sure he hates white racists and I'm sure he hates the government's actions through the years, but his actual conduct toward white people doesn't suggest hatred of white individuals to me.

[Mr Sparkle]

No, and that has nothing to do with whether our government can be held culpable for 9/11.

so you don't think the Iraq government was morally responsible for the actions taken against?

ok.

so then, dead civilians in Iraq rest square on the shoulders of the US.

good to know.

[Tron5000]

Pretty much. Your hate makes no difference as long as you don't show it in your actions. There are SO many people out there who are like this either against black people, gay people, what have you.

So it's OK to be a member of the KKK, just as long as you're nice to black people when you see them on the street. Right on.

[Mr Sparkle]

But you are assuming the rididiculous idea that Wright's hateful speeches started only 5 years ago.



no, no I'm not. :up:

[Excel]

Who ever said Obama or Wright hate white people? Wright pays to have white congregations bussed to his church for services. He is in a denomination that is predominantly white and has not withdrawn from it because he gets along with the white ADMINISTRATORS of the denomination. He is angry at the government, not at white individuals. Perhaps he needs to let go of the past, such as the segregation he knew for the first 20+ years of his life, but that is different from hating white people in general. I'm sure he hates white racists and I'm sure he hates the government's actions through the years, but his actual conduct toward white people doesn't suggest hatred of white individuals to me.

Exactly and thats the whole point. If the white people around him are saying he aint racist, than I guess all we can do is believe him.

[Tron5000]

so you don't think the Iraq government was morally responsible for the actions taken against?

ok.

so then, dead civilians in Iraq rest square on the shoulders of the US.

good to know.

It's not about the Iraq government as a whole. It's about the 1 man who ran the country and the extremist terrorist groups (al-Qaeda et al) that operated from and trained in Iraq.

[redfirebird2008]

But you are assuming the rididiculous idea that Wright's hateful speeches started only 5 years ago.

The fact is that Wright's preachings are based (as stated on the Trinity United Website) off the teachings of James Hal Cone. This was a man who stated:

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. . . . Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.

Stormin, you got reputable link to back up that quote?

[Darthphere]

well of course.
otherwise all the people that support the 700 club are homophobes against what robertson decries as " the gay agenda" and he rails against feminism as well.

do you think that all the members of the 700 club are homophobes?

All? No. Some? Yes.

Therein lies that lingering doubt. Enough doubt that will steer some people away from Obama.

[Excel]

So it's OK to be a member of the KKK, just as long as you're nice to black people when you see them on the street. Right on.


Pretty much. You tell me the diffrence it would make. Obviously not many if any people do this, but tell me.

[Mr Sparkle]

All? No. Some? Yes.

Therein lies that lingering doubt. Enough doubt that will steer some people away from Obama.

wow " some " people in a given congregation are racist?
ahahaha! that could be said about ANY congregation Darth.
there lies the trouble indeed.

[Tron5000]

Stormin, you got reputable link to back up that quote?

You're on the internet. Did your fingers suddenly break? Do you not know how to use a search engine.

Fine, more spoon-feeding. "Open the hangar, here comes the pwane!"

http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5483632

"What the black community wants, is for God to assist in its goal of DESTROYING 'the white enemy'....."
"Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him.' (BLASPHEMY)

"The task of black theology is to kill gods who do not belong to the black community."

"Black theology will accept only the love of God which PARTICIPATES IN THE DESTRUCTION OF THE WHITE ENEMY. What we need is the divine love as expressed in BLACK POWER, which is the power of the black people to DESTROY THEIR OPPRESSORS HERE AND NOW BY ANY MEANS AT THEIR DISPOSAL. Unless God is participating in this HOLY ACTIVITY, we must reject his love."

[redfirebird2008]

You linked to an effing forum that links to right wing whack job website WorldNetDaily? LOL. Pathetic.

[Mr Sparkle]

It's not about the Iraq government as a whole. It's about the 1 man who ran the country and the extremist terrorist groups (al-Qaeda et al) that operated from and trained in Iraq.

first of all no, not " Al Qaeda et all" not Al Qaeda at all is what you mean.
" it's about the one man who ran the country" ? do you think he ran it without accomplishes?
why do you think the playing cards were issued?:huh:
it was very much about the Iraq government as a whole.
or else, every failure in the US can be attributed to Bush which it can't.
again.
was the iraq government morally responsible for the actions taken by the US?

[Tron5000]

Pretty much. You tell me the diffrence it would make. Obviously not many if any people do this, but tell me.

The difference is that I consider it wrong to harbor hatred for a race of people based solely on the amount of light that reflects off their skin. So being a closet racist is not cool, in my opinion.

[Darthphere]

wow " some " people in a given congregation are racist?
ahahaha! that could be said about ANY congregation Darth.
there lies the trouble indeed.

I don't know, my church doesn't say goddamn america or blames white people for anything. My Pastor doesn't say crap like Rev Wright does. Therein lies fault of your logic. You're being argumentative for no reason. It's what you do.

[Zen]

That's really hilarious. Because I think there's a huge disconnect going on with Obama supporters, who think all of our problems will be solved in the four to eight years he may serve as President. No one seems to be aware of how government works in this country. They think that just because you have a President who makes promises, everything will change. That isn't the case. You have to work with Congress. You have to work with foreign leaders. Change doesn't happen over night; it takes time. Many of his supporters seem to be under the impression that we'll be out of Iraq the moment he's elected President. The moment he's elected President, we'll have health care. Economic hardships will completely disappear. It'll rain money from the sky and everyone will dance in the street, hand in hand, and life will be so much better.

That isn't the case, folks. Obama faces just as many challenges as Clinton will face if he's elected President. Obama is put in a corner, too, because it is his strong liberal record and short Senate resume which will make it hard to reach across the political aisle and convince Republicans to vote for his proposed legislation. Do you really think he'll be able to pass health care reform, when the Republicans have blocking power on all pieces of legislation? Do you really think he'll get us out of Iraq, when most of his commanders will tell him that a mass pull out will not only destroy Iraq, but will put our troops in even more danger?

I'm not the only person with a disconnect-- in fact, I don't have much of a disconnect, because I know how this government works. I'm not an idealist, because idealism doesn't work in this country. You have to see things for how they really are, and you have to learn that you cannot dismantle an entire establishment or change things just because you say you will.


Your additude is that the people cannot change and affect government.

that things are to rigid to change

and i said, that beleiving this perpetuates stagnation.

you do not have any more of a hold over reality then i do.

as if you write the future?

change can happen my friend. there is only a need of enough people who want it to change, to beleive and try.

if you dont want change, then i cannot argue against you.

but if you do... then saying that nothing can be changed, is antiproductive.

[Tron5000]

first of all no, not " Al Qaeda et all" not Al Qaeda at all is what you mean.
" it's about the one man who ran the country" ? do you think he ran it without accomplishes?
why do you think the playing cards were issued?:huh:
it was very much about the Iraq government as a whole.
or else, every failure in the US can be attributed to Bush which it can't.
again.
was the iraq government morally responsible for the actions taken by the US?

Do you like repeating yourself? Or do you just like asking other people a billion questions so that you yourself don't have to display your own beliefs? Do you enjoy this art of deception and deflection?

[Mr Sparkle]

I don't know, my church doesn't say goddamn america or blames white people for anything. My Pastor doesn't say crap like Rev Wright does. Therein lies fault of your logic. You're being argumentative for no reason. It's what you do.

actually.
if you're saying that of all the people in your congregation NONE of them are racist.
you're just being ignorant.
but OK.
I won't take it personally, seems you are though, did a kid named Obama used to bully you or something?:huh:

[Mr Sparkle]

Do you like repeating yourself? Or do you just like asking other people a billion questions so that you yourself don't have to display your own beliefs? Do you enjoy this art of deception and deflection?

are you familiar with the Psychological term " projection " ?

[StorminNorman]

Stormin, you got reputable link to back up that quote?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120568855824539755.html#WRIGHT

[Darthphere]

actually.
if you're saying that of all the people in your congregation NONE of them are racist.
you're just being ignorant.
but OK.
I won't take it personally, seems you are though, did a kid named Obama used to bully you or something?:huh:

No, it's a completely different set of circumstances though, that's why you're being argumentative for no reason. In my case or the cases of most churchgoers 1) We're not running for President. The company you keep is going to be put under a microscope, every word they say, you say are going to be analyzed thoroughly. and 2) I don't hold my Pastor as a "spiritual advisor" I have Jag for that.

[redfirebird2008]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120568855824539755.html#WRIGHT

Thank you. Much more reputable than World Net Daily or some random forum like Tron linked to. To me, the most offensive thing Wright said was that Jesus was black, as in African. That's an absolute joke of a statement. Christ was of Middle Eastern heritage. It's ridiculous to me that Wright and Cone think Christ has to only be for blacks. That's a preposterous idea. Christ died for everyone.

[Mr Sparkle]

No, it's a completely different set of circumstances though, that's why you're being argumentative for no reason. In my case or the cases of most churchgoers 1) We're not running for President. The company you keep is going to be put under a microscope, every word they say, you say are going to be analyzed thoroughly. and 2) I don't hold my Pastor as a "spiritual advisor" I have Jag for that.

no, I'm not.
I simply said that to argue that " some " people are racist in a congregation therefore it is bad was wrong.
because it could be said of ANYTHING.
and like I have said, I don't think that members of the 700 club are homophobes for instance.
plus, what wright is saying? yeah somethings are pretty wide brush, but others aren't that off, and strangely many of you agree with him, I have seen you agree with him, just not in " pastor mode" with fire and brimstone.
which is weird to me.
if you believe that I'm being " argumentative" then, you're welcome to it.

jag is a heathen though.

[comicgirl]

I don't know, my church doesn't say goddamn america or blames white people for anything. My Pastor doesn't say crap like Rev Wright does. Therein lies fault of your logic. You're being argumentative for no reason. It's what you do.churches like people are singlular. You don't go to church for the preacher.

[Darthphere]

no, I'm not.
I simply said that to argue that " some " people are racist in a congregation therefore it is bad was wrong.
because it could be said of ANYTHING.
and like I have said, I don't think that members of the 700 club are homophobes for instance.
plus, what wright is saying? yeah somethings are pretty wide brush, but others aren't that off, and strangely many of you agree with him, I have seen you agree with him, just not in " pastor mode" with fire and brimstone.
which is weird to me.
if you believe that I'm being " argumentative" then, you're welcome to it.

jag is a heathen though.

Don't talk about Jag like that!:cmad:

Lets put it this was Sparkle, I think you and I are cool with each other right? What if you found out I've been going to Minutemen rallies for the last 5 years where the head of the minutemen has been shouting "Death to mexicans!" but I tell you I didn't agree with that. What would you think of me?

[Darthphere]

churches like people are singlular. You don't go to church for the preacher.

You're right, if my preacher says death to the jews, its ok for me to stay, because you don't go to church for the preacher.:whatever::whatever::whatever:

[comicgirl]

I think it's sad that you think "he's being thrown in the fire."

There are questions this man needs to answer and has thus far refused to do so.

The fact that Obama is still a member in good standing at Trinity United Church means that he prefers the company of people who agree with Jeremiah Wright's comments to those that do not.you don't go to church for the preacher, man.

[Mr Sparkle]

Don't talk about Jag like that!:cmad:

Lets put it this was Sparkle, I think you and I are cool with each other right? What if you found out I've been going to Minutemen rallies for the last 5 years where the head of the minutemen has been shouting "Death to mexicans!" but I tell you I didn't agree with that. What would you think of me?

you know I would think less of you, of course.
but do you see that you have to compare the church to extremist groups in order for the comparison to have strength?
I understand why people are upset to a point.
my point is, is it really like the KKK and is the pastor really like a grand wizard to you?
if it is, then, go ahead, you a have a right to be outraged.
I just disagree.

[Darthphere]

you know I would think less of you, of course.
but do you see that you have to compare the church to extremist groups in order for the comparison to have strength?
I understand why people are upset to a point.
my point is, is it really like the KKK and is the pastor really like a grand wizard to you?
if it is, then, go ahead, you a have a right to be outraged.
I just disagree.

Extremism exists in religion as well Sparkle, or as Slim calls you with no consequence Spickle.:cwink:

[comicgirl]

You're right, if my preacher says death to the jews, its ok for me to stay, because you don't go to church for the preacher.:whatever::whatever::whatever:...... Did Wright say kill all the white women, etc?...I must've missed that.

If this dude was hanging off the rafters, he wouldn't have been that close to Bill circa '98. Bottom line: Wright's not running for Pres.

[Excel]

You're right, if my preacher says death to the jews, its ok for me to stay, because you don't go to church for the preacher.:whatever::whatever::whatever:

when did wright say anything involving death or harm to people?

[comicgirl]

when did wright say anything involving death or harm to people?apparently, that's what you hear when the video is played backwards...........

[Darthphere]

when did wright say anything involving death or harm to people?

Can you grasp the concept of hyperbole?:huh:

Apparently, comicgirl can't either.

[Mr Sparkle]

Extremism exists in religion as well Sparkle, or as Slim calls you with no consequence Spickle.:cwink:

no, I know.
do you think that Wright is comparable to other extremist, do you really view his speeches as " hate speech" and mind you, I know that in the black community there are some people with no love for the mexicans, but,like I said, if you think they are comparable then you have a right to be outraged.
and some people think they are, I just can't see it.

[Tron5000]

you don't go to church for the preacher, man.

Really? You don't have your membership at a church where you agree with the teachings of its pastor? That's news to me.

If your pastor is preaching hatred for America and its white citizens and you disagree with him, you leave. At least, that's what sane people do.

[Zen]

nevermind

[Zen]

nevermind

[StorminNorman]

and like I have said, I don't think that members of the 700 club are homophobes for instance.

See - I do.

I don't fathom how anyone could be apart of the 700 club, knowing the people involved - and not harbor homophobic beliefs.

[Zen]

Really? You don't have your membership at a church where you agree with the teachings of its pastor? That's news to me.

If your pastor is preaching hatred for America and its white citizens and you disagree with him, you leave. At least, that's what sane people do.

hatred for the bad things america has done

discontent with the rich white folks in government, not its citizens.

im on a merri-go-round

[Mr Sparkle]

hatred for the bad things america has done

discontent with the rich white folks in government, not its citizens.

im on a merri-go-round

no.
some people get it.:cwink:

[StorminNorman]

when did wright say anything involving death or harm to people?

Wright's teachings were inspired by a man who called for the death of whites.

[redfirebird2008]

Really? You don't have your membership at a church where you agree with the teachings of its pastor? That's news to me.

If your pastor is preaching hatred for America and its white citizens and you disagree with him, you leave. At least, that's what sane people do.

OK, since you love to use questions, here's one for you. Based on your logic, is Obama insane?

[Mr Sparkle]

See - I do.

I don't fathom how anyone could be apart of the 700 club, knowing the people involved - and not harbor homophobic beliefs.

well, you're wrong.
and even though I HATE pat roberston, I've never taken that leap in logic.
I know for a fact that some people actually are members of the 700 club for the good they do in some parts of the world.
even though Pat Roberston is a horrible, horrible human being.

that's the thing.
also, I just saw Wright on Hannity and Colmes and Wright was pretty good.

aNTGRL0OJWQ

:meanie:

[Tron5000]

hatred for the bad things america has done

discontent with the rich white folks in government, not its citizens.

im on a merri-go-round

You consider it appropriate to tell your congregation of thousands to not sing "God Bless America," but to instead say "God Damn America"?

[Mr Sparkle]

You consider it appropriate to tell your congregation of thousands to not sing "God Bless America," but to instead say "God Damn America"?

hahaha, that's NOT what he said.

[redfirebird2008]

You consider it appropriate to tell your congregation of thousands to not sing "God Bless America," but to instead say "God Damn America"?

No, but here's the full context: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw

[Mr Sparkle]

exactly.
it won't matter though.

[Tron5000]

hahaha, that's NOT what he said.

Hahaha, yeah, he did.

"The government wants us to sing 'God Bless America?' No, no, no! Not God bless America! God damn America."

[Kelly]

You consider it appropriate to tell your congregation of thousands to not sing "God Bless America," but to instead say "God Damn America"?

No, but here's the full context: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw


Tron, I'm not a fan of what the pastor has said either.....but that particular statement, is totally taken out of context when used by itself.....pastors all over this country have been preaching on this topic for centuries....that is the weakest of the arguments on what this pastor has talked about...

[redfirebird2008]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw

Ignorance is bliss, Tron.

[Tron5000]

Tron, I'm not a fan of what the pastor has said either.....but that particular statement, is totally taken out of context when used by itself.....pastors all over this country have been preaching on this topic for centuries....that is the weakest of the arguments on what this pastor has talked about...

Pastors all over the country say "God Damn America"? I've been to lots of churches, but never one of those.

[Mr Sparkle]

Hahaha, yeah, he did.

"The government wants us to sing 'God Bless America?' No, no, no! Not God bless America! God damn America."

but why, did he say this, he didn't just say that did he?
and you know this.
why do you pretend that there's no context? does it make it easier for you to make up your mind?
do you love government so much that you equate it your country?

for a guy that likes to " make up his own mind" you're towing the party line quite effectively.

[Kelly]

Pastors all over the country say "God Damn America"? I've been to lots of churches, but never one of those.


Well according to the scripture that he was probably preaching on.....yes God would damn a nation that turned away from him......and that is what the reverend is saying.....

[Zen]

Pastors all over the country say "God Damn America"? I've been to lots of churches, but never one of those.

i want to beleive you tried to understand what the pastor said in his entire speech and disagreed with that, in its entirety.

but you are not repsonding to the tone of his entire speech, you only use that phrase... which is out of context.

pastors across the country have debated whether or not america was justified in the eyes of god in its actions....

thats the larger point. in context

[Mr Sparkle]

Tron, I'm not a fan of what the pastor has said either.....but that particular statement, is totally taken out of context when used by itself.....pastors all over this country have been preaching on this topic for centuries....that is the weakest of the arguments on what this pastor has talked about...

the strongest would be his use of " Ain't " use Isn't for god's sake.
or " has not "

[Kelly]

the strongest would be his use of " Ain't " use Isn't for god's sake.
or " has not "



:huh:

[Tron5000]

but why, did he say this, he didn't just say that did he?
and you know this.
why do you pretend that there's no context? does it make it easier for you to make up your mind?
do you love government so much that you equate it your country?

for a guy that likes to " make up his own mind" you're towing the party line quite effectively.

So you tell me he never said that, and I prove you to be wrong. Now you want to talk about "why" he said this.

Sorry, but I'm not buying any of this "context" nonsense. You're implying that he has a valid reason to shout "God Damn America" from his pulpit. I'm arguing that he doesn't.

I disagree with our government on many issues, but I will not shout "God Damn America" to an audience of thousands and put it on a DVD to sell.

[Mr Sparkle]

he does not speak properly in his sermons and uses the word Ain't all the time.
if you want the black community to excel stop talking like you're in the corner throwing dice for a blaxploitation movie.

[Mr Sparkle]

So you tell me he never said that, and I prove you to be wrong. Now you want to talk about "why" he said this.

Sorry, but I'm not buying any of this "context" nonsense. You're implying that he has a valid reason to shout "God Damn America" from his pulpit. I'm arguing that he doesn't.

I disagree with our government on many issues, but I will not shout "God Damn America" to an audience of thousands and put it on a DVD to sell.

yes Tron, that's exactly what it is.
you win the internet.
I'm not implying anything, I'm saying that for those who can remain un-emotional about it, what he says, not that big a deal, a not that far off.
the fact that YOU wouldn't do it, well that happens to be your business.
so?
you're arguing that you have a different point of view than the reverend?
why is yours valid and his is not?
do you know?
do you even care?
because every time I hear someone saying " don't give me any of this context nonsense" I seriously shudder.
because you should know better.

[Tron5000]

yes Tron, that's exactly what it is.
you win the internet.
I'm not implying anything, I'm saying that for those who can remain un-emotional about it, what he says, not that big a deal, a not that far off.
the fact that YOU wouldn't do it, well that happens to be your business.
so?
you're arguing that you have a different point of view than the reverend?
why is yours valid and his is not?
do you know?
do you even care?
because every time I hear someone saying " don't give me any of this context nonsense" I seriously shudder.
because you should know better.

I "should know better." Really. Because you think you know better than I how I should formulate my own opinions of Obama's pastor based solely on the statements that I have heard him make.

[Mr Sparkle]

I "should know better." Really. Because you think you know better than I how I should formulate my own opinions of Obama's pastor based solely on the statements that I have heard him make.

if you regard context as " nonsense " then any opinions you formulate are clearly flawed.

yes.
you should know better.

[Tron5000]

if you regard context as " nonsense " then any opinions you formulate are clearly flawed.

yes.
you should know better.

I think it is "nonsense" to use "context" to justify Wright's comments. It's "nonsense" to use "context" to imply that Jeremiah Wright is justified in saying "God Damn America."

Sorry I don't "know better."

[Marx]

if you regard context as " nonsense " then any opinions you formulate are clearly flawed.

yes.
you should know better.

I think it is "nonsense" to use "context" to justify Wright's comments. It's "nonsense" to use "context" to imply that Jeremiah Wright is justified in saying "God Damn America."

Sorry I don't "know better."

There is absolutely no context in which Reverend Wright's comments would be acceptable. No context.

[Marx]

churches like people are singlular. You don't go to church for the preacher.

I disagree. While you may not go to church for the pastor, the pastor represents the church. The pastor creates their own interpretation. If you do not agree with the pastor's interpretation, YOU LEAVE THE CHURCH!

I mean, come on. That would be like saying, "well I always enjoy attending the KKK rallies because they're really fun and spirited! But I don't really care for the message..." Give me a break. :whatever:

[redfirebird2008]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/5637078.html

[redfirebird2008]

Marx, then why is it that white preachers don't get jumped on for saying that God will damn America for allowing abortion? Somehow it's different when a black preacher says God would damn America for racial injustice? He is right that it's in the Bible and if you watch the entire clip, you'll see him explain the example from the Bible where God damned a state for its actions.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/5637078.html

[Marx]

Marx, then why is it that white preachers don't get jumped on for saying that God will damn America for allowing abortion? Somehow it's different when a black preacher says God would damn America for racial injustice? He is right that it's in the Bible and if you watch the entire clip, you'll see him explain the example from the Bible where God damned a state for its actions.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/5637078.html


Trust me Firebird, there are plenty of radical white preachers too. I think they are just as bad as Wright. It's those same preachers that condemn abortion, gay rights, etc. I don't believe any of it is acceptable, in any way. I don't care if it's in the bible or not. The bible is open to interpretation. As for why white preachers don't get jumped, I'm not sure I really know how to answer that. They don't get off scott-free, that's for sure.

[Franklin Richards]

Yeah. Everybody has defended Falwell and Robertsen.

:whatever:


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[redfirebird2008]

Yeah. Everybody has defended Falwell and Robertsen.

:whatever:


:thing: :doom: :thing:

Yeah, Republicans gladly accept their endorsement and even seek it. They have no problem with it. Why is that?

[Marx]

Yeah, Republicans gladly accept their endorsement and even seek it. They have no problem with it. Why is that?

Because the religious right and conservatives are the base of the party. A rather large base, all things considered. How do you think McCain gained the nomination? It wasn't because he wooed the base. Independents were the key.

[redfirebird2008]

Because the religious right and conservatives are the base of the party. A rather large base, all things considered. How do you think McCain gained the nomination? It wasn't because he wooed the base. Independents were the key.

It was a rhetorical question. :cwink:

[Franklin Richards]

Yeah, Republicans gladly accept their endorsement and even seek it. They have no problem with it. Why is that?

Hello? They're Republicans!!!


:D


:doom: :doom: :doom:

[redfirebird2008]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/another-bill-clinton-mome_n_92818.html

[shakes head]

[Marx]

It was a rhetorical question. :cwink:

Ohhhh...noted. http://forums.superherohype.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

[Memphis Slim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=928_TLwSl1I

[Memphis Slim]

Obama Not Yet Out of the Woods
By David Limbaugh
Friday, March 21, 2008



Barack Obama is nothing if not smooth. He seamlessly turned a would-be apology over his pastor's racism into an indictment against society's racism.

It wasn't, "Jeremiah Wright was wrong, and I was wrong for going to his church for 20 years despite his apparently unforgiving spirit, his racist and anti-American utterances, and his vulgarity, including taking the Lord's name in vain from his very pulpit -- the one venue above all on God's sacred planet that such irreverence is inalterably forbidden. No matter what racial injustices have been perpetrated over the years by mankind toward mankind, they are never an excuse for disrespecting God, and especially in His house."

Instead, Obama said, essentially, "I reject many of Rev. Wright's remarks as divisive and perhaps even unfairly critical of America, but you have to admit, he has a point."

You can talk all you want to about Obama's "audacity of hope" theme, but the only audacity I heard in his speech was his lecturing Americans on their racism instead of explaining his longtime intimate relationship with Wright.

Obama's forte is not, as many have suggested, waxing eloquent while saying nothing. His real gift is saying one thing while appearing to say the opposite, so mellifluously and disarmingly that audiences shake their heads in affirmation of the very proposition they oppose. Without changing their minds, they believe they have agreed with him. Amazing -- and scary.

In his speech, he needed to condemn and distance himself from his pastor. And he did -- sort of. But before he was finished, he had virtually excused his pastor's statements and given us a history lesson in precisely why resentments giving rise to such statements came about -- and were justified. In other words, "Sure, Pastor Wright sometimes crossed the line, but don't let his tone obscure the underlying message: Racism is still pervasive in this country, which hasn't come close to making amends for its shameful past."

Reasonable people can debate the extent of the continued existence and effects of racism in both directions today, but in the meantime, we should recognize that Obama ducked the questions his speech was purportedly crafted to answer.

Assuming that not everyone listening to the speech was so mesmerized by Obama's intoxicating spell of lofty rhetoric that they forgot its purpose, Obama is not yet out of the woods on this issue. And that's his own fault.
He needed to speak directly, but he obfuscated with cleverly concealed contradictions and evasions. He said his campaign presents a powerful message of unity, but his words stoked racial unease and divisiveness. While paying lip service to our national motto, "Out of Many, One," he couldn't quit talking about people in terms of their color and ethnicity.
He scolded us for our racism, but he
-- encouraged us to keep race-consciousness at the very forefront of our national psyche,
-- sloppily conflated Pastor Wright's manifest racism and anti-Americanism with his white grandmother's stereotypical remarks and Democrat Geraldine Ferraro's political observation about the effect of Obama's race on his electability, and
-- didn't point his accusing finger at the race-hustlers of our time, who fan the flames of racial resentment and hostility.

Rather, he fed into feelings of racial distrust by playing to his leftist base and wrongly castigating Reaganism and conservative commentators for their alleged racism. He legitimized the noxious notion that conservative opposition to welfare and affirmative action are born of racism by saying we must "realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams." He implied that conservative resistance to throwing endless money at public education is rooted in a "cynicism that tells us that these kids can't learn, that those kids who don't look like us are somebody else's problem." These are misguided and damaging words.

Conservatives promote school choice precisely because they want to deliver disadvantaged children from their confinement in inner-city schools. Conservative opposition to affirmative action and unbridled welfare is not based on greed, selfishness or racism but on a philosophical difference over how best to solve problems while preserving the dignity of all individual human beings.

It is certainly Obama's prerogative to make his campaign about race while saying it transcends it. It is his right to duck the question of his intimate connection to Wright, and he may take the offensive by deftly turning the charges of racism back on conservatives.

But it is up to the voters to evaluate his cultural analysis, his evasiveness and the wisdom of his proposed big-government solutions for our problems. I am unconvinced that his eloquence has successfully masked the deep problems that have begun to haunt his driving presidential ambitions.

[The Senator]

churches like people are singlular. You don't go to church for the preacher.

THIS ISN'T ABOUT OBAMA ATTENDING THE CHURCH!

Most of us could CARE LESS about what church he attends.

I don't give a damn one way or another. I wouldn't care what his pastor thought , except OBAMA MADE HIM THE TOP SPIRITUAL ADVISER ON HIS CAMPAIGN!!

And not only did he make him a top adviser on his campaign... but Wright had a record of saying these disgusting things before Obama even ran for Senate.

Then when this came out... Obama didn't even tend to it properly! He originally brushed Wright off as "that crazy old uncle" who says things you don't agree with. Then, he gave a speech... a really nice, well-thought out speech which would have worked at any point in the campaign... except he praised Wright further! White voters and independents who don't take kindly to racism in any form were turned off. as polling indicates!

Obama showed an immense lack of judgment here. Regardless of whether he left the church or not, I couldn't care less. But he made Wright an adviser on his campaign when he should have known better!

[Lightning Strykez!]

Well, apparently not everyone thinks Obama is damaged goods because of the way his pastor preaches.

Governor Bill Richardson has (finally) endorsed Obama. Say what you want, but this will turn the page for some wanting to get back to the issues at hand, namely NATIONAL politics, not religious ones.

[The Senator]

Well, apparently not everyone thinks Obama is damaged goods because of the way his pastor preaches.

Governor Bill Richardson has (finally) endorsed Obama. Say what you want, but this will turn the page for some wanting to get back to the issues at hand, namely NATIONAL politics, not religious ones.

You have too much faith in the media...

[Excel]

Lightning I realized it a while ago; this is a comic book heros board. Many of the people here arent your average mainstream people; more like the opposite. Obamas about as mainstream as candidate gets right now, so many here will just dislike him because he is popular because thats what they do. No offense intended to anybody; but it is true. Obv not everybody, but a lot...

[The Senator]

Lightning I realized it a while ago; this is a comic book heros board. Many of the people here arent your average mainstream people; more like the opposite. Obamas about as mainstream as candidate gets right now, so many here will just dislike him because he is popular because thats what they do. No offense intended to anybody; but it is true. Obv not everybody, but a lot...

I don't know anyone who dislikes him because he is popular... arguably, Clinton is just as popular... do people dislike her because of her popularity? :huh:

[Lightning Strykez!]

You have too much faith in the media...

And you underestimate their power. They are the ones deciding the outcome of this election. Not the common people. That much is clear...

[Mr Sparkle]

There is absolutely no context in which Reverend Wright's comments would be acceptable. No context.


you're entitled to your opinion.
I'm of course talking about the god damn America comment.
and frankly, I feel it is quite justified.

[Mr Sparkle]

so, then, the ferraro thing.
big deal then?

[Excel]

Arguably, Clinton is just as popular... do people dislike her because of her popularity? :huh:

The vote tally says otherwise; but I would say Clintons...knownabilty (?) hurts her. If she wasnt first lady, she wouldnt be where she is right now, but she wouldnt have a group of people dead set AGAINST her either.

[The Senator]

And you underestimate their power. They are the ones deciding the outcome of this election. Not the common people. That much is clear...

I was referring to the possibility of the media actually focusing on Richardson's politics versus the Wright scandal. Obviously they tell voters what to think... for better or worse. But nothing's more exciting than a juicy scandal, it seems. Whether it's Wright's or Ferraro's comments, or focusing on NY Gov. David Paterson's extramarital affair which was dissolved and settled long ago, the media will focus on what may make voters cringe versus what may give them useful information.

[The Senator]

The vote tally says otherwise; but I would say Clintons...knownabilty (?) hurts her. If she wasnt first lady, she wouldnt be where she is right now, but she wouldnt have a group of people dead set AGAINST her either.

In some ways, you are correct. But Clinton is still a force to be reckoned with, and people love her just as much as others hate her. I think people hate her because she's a well-known, controversial figure. I think some people hate Obama because he's the 'cool guy.' Both sides have opposition based on stupid reasons.

[The Senator]

so, then, the ferraro thing.
big deal then?

I'll ask Ferraro that when I meet her next week :up:

[Excel]

I know they love her; she has a rock solid base of voters that WILL NOT waver no matter what; hence why its such a ***** to get her out of the election.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Ya know, I don't hate Hillary. But I do find her incredibly disengenuous. And the way she's run her campaign has absolutely disgusted me beyond description. And that speaks volumes to me about how she'd run this country.

[Memphis Slim]

so, then, the ferraro thing.
big deal then?

No.

Plus if you look at how this has played out, he IS very fortunate to be who he is, as a black man. People are cutting him all kinds of slack that no white man in the same position would get.

Just like Ferraro said.

Her remarks:

"If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position," Geraldine Ferraro told the Daily Breeze of Torrance, Calif., in an interview published Friday. "And if he was a woman (of any color) he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept."

Man.....it's been played out right here. 20 years at a church that spewed that crazy stuff?? A white man would be ruined!! :whatever:

[Kelly]

so, then, the ferraro thing.
big deal then?


No......I don't think it was.....she simply compared her run as the first woman running for VP, knowing that she was there because she was a woman.......to Obama, being the first black man to get this far in running for President....and the reason being he's black. The fact that I've read here, and heard many say, the reason they are voting for him is because he is black says alot. She also spoke of him as an eloquent speaker.....which in my opinion......is another reason why he speaks to so many young people.....is charisma is a big factor. I can't say that his experience is what has gotten him this far. I love what he has to say, I love what he stands for......but his story would not be as headlining if he were a white man.....IMO......simply because Ferraro was the first woman, and Obama the first viable black candidate....says we are pushing forward in this country, and that IMO is a good thing....her comments spoke nothing of hate...

As far as the Wright comments......his speech from his pulpit.....in Obama's opinion was "wrong and divisive", IMO it was not about change, it was not about looking backwards, it was not about looking forward, it was not about bringing people together.....it was about victimization.

[Marx]

And you underestimate their power. They are the ones deciding the outcome of this election. Not the common people. That much is clear...

Scandals outweigh endorsements. (If it were someone a little bit bigger than Richardson, maybe it would matter.)

[Matt]

Scandals outweigh endorsements. (If it were someone a little bit bigger than Richardson, maybe it would matter.)

Agreed. If Al Gore or John Edwards endorsed Obama, it may mean something. At this point, Richardson's endorsement means jack, and I think Richardson is likely aware of that and held off on giving the endorsement until this point out of respect for his former boss. Afterall, Richardson was not undecided. He gave Obama his delegates in Iowa, so he clearly had his mind made up.

[Showtime]

Al Gore definately, if Edwards endorsed him I would vote for McCain out of spite.

[Marx]

Agreed. If Al Gore or John Edwards endorsed Obama, it may mean something. At this point, Richardson's endorsement means jack, and I think Richardson is likely aware of that and held off on giving the endorsement until this point out of respect for his former boss. Afterall, Richardson was not undecided. He gave Obama his delegates in Iowa, so he clearly had his mind made up.

Al Gore definately, if Edwards endorsed him I would vote for McCain out of spite.

Exactly guys. That's what I'm saying. Someone of that caliber may make a difference. But Richardson is far too late, if it truly would have mattered at all. (Look at what Kennedy and Kerry's endorsement did for Obama, absolutely nothing! And they were noticably higher profile than Richardson.)

[Matt]

Al Gore definately, if Edwards endorsed him I would vote for McCain out of spite.

Not an Edwards fan?

[jaguarr]

I view the endorsements as cumulative. No one endorsement, be it Oprah, Richardson, Lewis, or anyone else is really going to cause a huge change. However, as more and more endorsements start to pile up from high profile people, THAT does begin to start swaying public opinion as well as the voting mood of the much coveted super delegates.

jag

[Marx]

I view the endorsements as cumulative. No one endorsement, be it Oprah, Richardson, Lewis, or anyone else is really going to cause a huge change. However, as more and more endorsements start to pile up from high profile people, THAT does begin to start swaying public opinion as well as the voting mood of the much coveted super delegates.

jag

That being said, the Supers will also go with a candidate that is the least likely to be "scandalized." Obama's situation with Wright could very well sway alot of those Supers to Hillary.

[Excel]

Speaking of Al, when is he gonna come out???

[Marx]

Speaking of Al, when is he gonna come out???

I don't think he is going to endorse anyone. At least, not in the primary. He MAY decide to endorse someone in the general election. May, but I wouldn't count on it.

[The Senator]

Speaking of Al, when is he gonna come out???

He's not going to endorse.

[jaguarr]

That being said, the Supers will also go with a candidate that is the least likely to be "scandalized." Obama's situation with Wright could very well sway alot of those Supers to Hillary.

I don't know about that. Clinton's got a lot of skeletons in her closet including on the religious front (see other thread in this forum about that). McCain has his own set of issues as well. I don't think any of the candidates have a real advantage over any of the others on that front.

jag

[Matt]

Speaking of Al, when is he gonna come out???

Gore? I doubt he will endorse anyone. He is enjoying his current position as a party elder who is kind of above the current bickering. That is why he did not throw his name into the hat despite all polls indicating that he would've taken most of Edwards' base, and about 35 % of both Clinton and Obama's voters and easily won the nomination.

Gore will likely only endorse a candidate if and when the time comes that all super delegates must vote because of a deadlock at the convention. He may in the mean time try to mediate a solution between Obama and Clinton, but I think both are far too stubborn to do this.

Also, a very unlikely (if not impossible) scenario...but how amazing would it be if Gore threw his name in at the convention? Like, on day 2 or 3 when there is nothing but deadlock...Gore enters as a dark horse. I don't believe there is anything that prevents him from doing so. Who would it hurt? Who would it help? Could Gore take the nomination that way? In an odd sense, it would be the best thing for the party as Gore would wipe the floor with McCain.

[comicgirl]

I don't think it would be fair for the DNC to pull him into this mess. He's smart to stay out of the fray. Howard Dean needs to grow a pair and get it together. He's the DNC Chairman, act like it.

[Matt]

I don't think it would be fair for the DNC to pull him into this mess. He's smart to stay out of the fray. Howard Dean needs to grow a pair and get it together. He's the DNC Chairman, act like it.

What can he do? Neither wants to settle. He can't change the rules half way through.

[MST3K 4ever]

As they say in China, "May you live in interesting times." Ladies and Gentlemen...we are living in them right now.

[\S/JcDc\S/]

I wouldn't mind Gore for President. He just didn't want to run, even knowing he would likely get the nomination.

[comicgirl]

I wouldn't mind Gore for President. He just didn't want to run, even knowing he would likely get the nomination.Gore got screwed in '00. Why step up for more?:csad:

[StorminNorman]

Gore got screwed in '00. Why step up for more?:csad:

Screwed...as in didn't win:huh:

[comicgirl]

Screwed...as in didn't win:huh:

screwed -to mistreat or exploit through extortion, trickery, or unfair actions; especially : to deprive of or cheat out of something due or expected (2): to treat so as to bring about injury or loss (as to a person's reputation) <use the available Federal machinery to screw our political enemies — J. W. Dean III>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/screwed

[The Senator]

screwed -to mistreat or exploit through extortion, trickery, or unfair actions; especially : to deprive of or cheat out of something due or expected (2): to treat so as to bring about injury or loss (as to a person's reputation) <use the available Federal machinery to screw our political enemies — J. W. Dean III>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/screwed

Bush won, fair and square. If you have any problems with how elections work in this country, take it up with the founding fathers.

[StorminNorman]

screwed -to mistreat or exploit through extortion, trickery, or unfair actions; especially : to deprive of or cheat out of something due or expected (2): to treat so as to bring about injury or loss (as to a person's reputation) <use the available Federal machinery to screw our political enemies — J. W. Dean III>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/screwed
Thank you for proving that by definition, Al Gore was not screwed :up:

Again, he lost.

[comicgirl]

Thank you for proving that by definition, Al Gore was not screwed :up:

Again, he lost.dyslexic - a variable learning disability involving difficulties in acquiring and processing language.

[StorminNorman]

dyslexic - a variable learning disability involving difficulties in acquiring and processing language.

Delusion:

1: the act of deluding : the state of being deluded

2 a: something that is falsely or delusively (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delusively) believed or propagated b: a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs

[\S/JcDc\S/]

Bush won, fair and square. If you have any problems with how elections work in this country, take it up with the founding fathers.


Ha ha you just want Michigan and Florida :p

[StorminNorman]

comicgirl I really don't know what you are arguing. If you are indeed saying Al Gore was screwed because he won the popular vote - your own definition clearly defines that, again, by definition - Al Gore was not screwed.

There was no trickery, not extortions, no unfair action.

[Nivek]

I'm pretty sure the founding fathers never imagined technology that allowed every American to place a vote.

[Nivek]

comicgirl I really don't know what you are arguing. If you are indeed saying Al Gore was screwed because he won the popular vote - your own definition clearly defines that, again, by definition - Al Gore was not screwed.

There was no trickery, not extortions, no unfair action.

No, they just ignored and lost votes here. Then because of her hand in it, Katherine Harris was pushed out Bush and Cheneys back door like the P.O.S. that she was.

[StorminNorman]

No, they just ignored and lost votes here. Then because of her hand in it, Katherine Harris was pushed out Bush and Cheneys back door like the P.O.S. that she was.

This is completely incorrect and based purely on paranoia rather than fact.

If you want to talk about ignoring votes - lets talk about how the media called the state of Florida for Gore while there was over 30 minutes left in the Central Time Zone. Northwest Florida is heavily Republican. Many people who were heading to vote did not do so because of the media announcement.

[comicgirl]

comicgirl I really don't know what you are arguing. If you are indeed saying Al Gore was screwed because he won the popular vote - your own definition clearly defines that, again, by definition - Al Gore was not screwed.

There was no trickery, not extortions, no unfair action.Norm, bubbie.....A Rep. stacked Supreme Court gave Bush the election. The whole mess with Florida (where America goes to die) stinks.

Bush lost the popular vote;more people voted for Gore than for him. The Supreme Court gave Bush the required number of electoral votes with a 537-vote margin in the state of Florida (grrr!).

It's all blige water under the bridge now. Not arguing, dude; it's fishy.

[BlackLantern]

if Gore was president 9-11 would have only been the first attack....Gore wouldn't have done anything and we would have been hit much much worse some time later...I'm not saying Bush did anything right, but it was a better alternative than Captain Global Warming

[The Senator]

Norm, bubbie.....A Rep. stacked Supreme Court gave Bush the election. The whole mess with Florida (where America goes to die) stinks.

Bush lost the popular vote;more people voted for Gore than for him. The Supreme Court gave Bush the required number of electoral votes with a 537-vote margin in the state of Florida (grrr!).

It's all blige water under the bridge now. Not arguing, dude; it's fishy.

While Al Gore lost the popular vote.... it isn't the popular vote which matters. It's the electoral vote. You need 270 electoral votes to win an election. Bush had 271, if I remember correctly. It sucks, but unfortunately, that's how it works.

Hell, all he had to do was win eleven big states (CA, TX, NY, FL, PA, IL, NC, GA, NJ, OH and MI) and he would have won the election. He could have been behind Gore by 15% of the vote... and he still would have won.

What is it the Obama supporters say whenever a re-vote in MI or FL gets brought up? Oh yes: "Rules are rules." :o

[comicgirl]

if Gore was president 9-11 would have only been the first attack....Gore wouldn't have done anything and we would have been hit much much worse some time later...I'm not saying Bush did anything right, but it was a better alternative than Captain Global Warmingunfortunately, I may have to agree with this. However, Gore wouldn't have pulled Dubya's balls-to-the-wall response in Iraq.

[Mr Sparkle]

Screwed...as in didn't win:huh:

screwed as in, many people believe that the election was stolen.
surely, if you're willing to believe McCarthy was not such a bad guy you're willing to accept that sometimes not all the facts are available to people in order for them to make a sound judgment on a issue right?

[Damiean Dark]

Its history Bush "won" and is currently a dead man walking as you await your next president.

[Mr Sparkle]

I always like to picture people doing actual " air quotes " with "won"

[Damiean Dark]

It may sound cliche but its something you will never understand.

Race in the US and the world is still a touchy subject. slavery was abolished in the US 143 years ago, not long in the great scheme of things my great grandfather would have been nothing short of a workhorse if he was from the US. Slavery was abolished but segregation remained for decades after remember Rosa Parks? she made history only 53 short years ago my FATHER would have had to sit at the back if he was from the US throughout all this blacks where given the impression they are less the human this kind of relentless stigma breeds tremendous resentment i personally dont agree with Wrights comments but i, like a lot of black people, see where he is coming from.

[Damiean Dark]

The Tukegee Syphylis experiment is a prime example hundreds of black males being denied treatment so they could monitor the devastating long term effects it sounds like a lab experiment on rats but it happend.

[Excel]

unfortunately, I may have to agree with this. However, Gore wouldn't have pulled Dubya's balls-to-the-wall response in Iraq.

Whatever, its worked. Much as I hate bush his work on preventing terrorism has worked; god knows how they wanted to get us again after 9/11.

[Mr Sparkle]

but his story would not be as headlining if he were a white man.....IMO......simply because Ferraro was the first woman, and Obama the first viable black candidate....says we are pushing forward in this country, and that IMO is a good thing....her comments spoke nothing of hate...

As far as the Wright comments......his speech from his pulpit.....in Obama's opinion was "wrong and divisive", IMO it was not about change, it was not about looking backwards, it was not about looking forward, it was not about bringing people together.....it was about victimization.

:huh: but then, shouldn't you vote for people for what they have planned for the future and what they say now? unless they are some serial killer or child molester or ...racist ( even though I know some reformed racists) their " story " seems irrelevant.
you know when I first saw Obama 4 years ago, I thought of him as a great politician.
I wasn't impressed that he was black and a politician, because that would implicitly say that I think black people aren't qualified for those jobs, hell, Richardson is an Ugly Mexican and I was more impressed by what he had to say than by the fact that someone so outstandingly hideous could get nominated for something other than " stand in for John Merrick".
the Rev wright's comment were nutty.
sure.
I have said that time and time again.
he is NOT running for office, and if you believe that Obama is going to send his own mother to some concentration camp for some good ole ethnic cleansing, then, by all means, Vote Hillary, or McCain or hell, Nader, zombies need love too.
I have said so far that the noise over this was just noise, nothing else.
if you choose to believe it has merit then, by all means, hold it up to the light.
the problem is that this distracts people from the real issues, so far I have seen threads about racism, who knows who and who worships which imaginary man in the sky.

issues?
nah, none so far.
sad really.

and yes Celldog I know I'm from Mexico, but you haven't caught on to the fact that i actually LIKE your country, not because of some wish to join it one day ( hells no bro I'm Canada bound) but because I know a lot of Americans and I like THEM, so the country itself can't be that bad, the people can't be that bad can they?
you hit it on the head

"Man.....it's been played out right here. 20 years at a church that spewed that crazy stuff?? A white man would be ruined!!"

but there has been mention of other associations, just as nutty with the white people and NO ONE CARES because they aren't in the campaign, because comparatively they are not as nutty etcetera.
I just don't see any merit to this.
4 years ago, when the swift boat thing came on tv I just rolled my eyes.
why?
because people actually thought that a guy that was IN NAM, IN THE WAR.
was somehow less patriotic than a guy who got his daddy to get him a nice cushy job protecting the US from the non-existant Airborne VC.
yet still, people ate it up.
in the issues? Kerry demolished Bush, demolished him, but you know why people voted for Bush?
because they would have a Beer with him! because they Identified with him!
they identified with a man that had more money by the time that he was 12 than 80% of the US yet they all thought he was some sort of cowboy and that Kerry was all uppity and ****.
sound shallow to you?
it did to me, and it is sounding like that AGAIN.
and it gets on my nerves.

[Mr Sparkle]

if Gore was president 9-11 would have only been the first attack....Gore wouldn't have done anything and we would have been hit much much worse some time later...I'm not saying Bush did anything right, but it was a better alternative than Captain Global Warming

hahaha.
yeah, I'm sure he would've gone hug a tree or something.
I mean the last thing you want in a a leader during a crisis is someone known for being unemotional and calculating.

[Memphis Slim]

Mr.Sparkie: and yes Celldog I know I'm from Mexico, but you haven't caught on to the fact that i actually LIKE your country,


You're right..........I HAVEN'T CAUGHT ON TO THAT ONE! Throw me some more clues.


:dry:

[BlackLantern]

hahaha.
yeah, I'm sure he would've gone hug a tree or something.
I mean the last thing you want in a a leader during a crisis is someone known for being unemotional and calculating.

If Gore was President, he would have been all about healing and rebuilding and that would have been it. He wouldn't have bothered to go after who was responsible.

[BlackLantern]

The tone of the speech was the correct one. He basically made the point that if people want to make this all about race and the same old **** that has kept politics the same way for years...go right ahead, he is not going to do that.

[Matt]

If Gore was President, he would have been all about healing and rebuilding and that would have been it. He wouldn't have bothered to go after who was responsible.

I highly doubt it. Any president who did not invade Afghanistan would've been impeached.

[Matt]

The tone of the speech was the correct one. He basically made the point that if people want to make this all about race and the same old **** that has kept politics the same way for years...go right ahead, he is not going to do that.

The fact is he DID do it. He is the one who brought this racist man into his campaign. The Clinton's did not secretly insert Pastor Wright into Obama's camp. Obama gave him this high ranking position. And now people want answers as to why he would give a known racist a high ranking position and Obama is refusing to answer them saying "We shouldn't make this about race!"

[BlackLantern]

^^^^ I think Obama is circling the drain as it is....and now there is this whole passport issue as well..

[bullets]

The fact is he DID do it. He is the one who brought this racist man into his campaign. The Clinton's did not secretly insert Pastor Wright into Obama's camp. Obama gave him this high ranking position. And now people want answers as to why he would give a known racist a high ranking position and Obama is refusing to answer them saying "We shouldn't make this about race!"


Obama is playing with peoples emotions .

[Darthphere]

The tone of the speech was the correct one. He basically made the point that if people want to make this all about race and the same old **** that has kept politics the same way for years...go right ahead, he is not going to do that.

The equivalent of "Move along now, nothing to see here."

[Darthphere]

Obama is playing with peoples emotions .

http://www.supermusic.sk/obrazky/56606_1390_backstreet%20boys13.jpg

Quit playing games with my heart.

[Matt]

Obama is playing with peoples emotions .

Exactly!

[jaguarr]

Whatever, its worked. Much as I hate bush his work on preventing terrorism has worked; god knows how they wanted to get us again after 9/11.

How so? Just because there hasn't been a major terrorist attack on U.S. soil doesn't mean that terrorism has been shut down by our efforts overseas. In fact, I'd say we've created a ticking time bomb over there by giving more people than ever in that region reasons to resent us. bin Laden is still running free (and targeting the Pope, apparently), Al Queda is stronger than ever and using Iraq to recruit like there's no tomorrow (which is what they're wanting to cause), the Taliban is still around, and there have been numerous terrorist attacks outside of our country. Hell, just a couple of weeks ago someone bombed a military recruiting station in Times Square in NYC. Bush hasn't done a damn thing to actually prevent terrorism; don't be fooled by the dog and pony show. If anything, whoever takes over the Presidency from him is inheriting a situation ten times worse than it was before he had it that has the potential to explode on us at any moment. Will you be thanking ol' G.W. for that, too, if it happens? I damn sure hope so. Because it's his legacy.

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

The fact is he DID do it. He is the one who brought this racist man into his campaign. The Clinton's did not secretly insert Pastor Wright into Obama's camp. Obama gave him this high ranking position. And now people want answers as to why he would give a known racist a high ranking position and Obama is refusing to answer them saying "We shouldn't make this about race!"

so, again, Obama is a racist.
why can't people just come out and say it?:huh: I mean, it's what they feel, but they tip-toe around it like they are getting paid.
I'm sure Obama hates his mother as well. and that he would legislate from a deep, deep hatred of whites.
because that's the kind of politician he has shown himself to be, not by association with wright, but in his career as a politician.

right?

[Mr Sparkle]

You're right..........I HAVEN'T CAUGHT ON TO THAT ONE! Throw me some more clues.


:dry:

:huh: by your response I'm pretty sure you haven't caught on at all.

[Damiean Dark]

so, again, Obama is a racist.
why can't people just come out and say it?:huh: I mean, it's what they feel, but they tip-toe around it like they are getting paid.
I'm sure Obama hates his mother as well. and that he would legislate from a deep, deep hatred of whites.
because that's the kind of politician he has shown himself to be, not by association with wright, but in his career as a politician.

right?

yep he is a racist and a fake preaching change and racial harmony for political expediancy once he takes power he will rule against white america with an iron hand discriminating them ruthlessly.:whatever:

[The Senator]

Looks like one of Obama's advisers' companies was involved in the passport breach the other day:

Chief of firm involved in breach is Obama adviser
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The CEO of a company whose employee is accused of improperly looking at the passport files of presidential candidates is a consultant to the Barack Obama campaign, a source said Saturday.

Analysis Corp. President John Brennan, shown here in 2004, advises Barack Obama, a source tells CNN.

John O. Brennan, president and CEO of the Analysis Corp., advises the Illinois Democrat on foreign policy and intelligence issues, the source said.

Brennan briefed the media on behalf of the campaign this month.

The executive is a former senior CIA official and former interim director of the National Counterterrorism Center.

He contributed $2,300 to the Obama campaign in January.

When asked about the contribution, a State Department official told CNN's Zain Verjee, "We ethically awarded contracts. Political affiliation is not one of the factors that we check."

On Friday, the department revealed that Obama's passport file was improperly accessed three times this year, and the security of passport files of the two other major presidential candidates -- Democrat Hillary Clinton and Republican John McCain -- had also been breached.

Three contract emplyees are accused in the wrongdoing, including the one who works for Analysis Corp. and who was disciplined. That contract employee accessed McCain's file in addition to Obama's. None of the contract employees was identified.

The other two contract employees worked for Stanley Inc. They were fired.

The Washington Times, which broke the story Thursday night that Obama's records had been improperly accessed, reported Saturday that the State Department inquiry is focusing on the Analysis Corp. employee. Also, the investigation by the department's inspector general will include polygraph tests for supervisors in the passport section to find out whether there was any political motive.
Don't Miss

The department spokesman said Saturday that he would not comment on whether the department was administering polygraphs to employees in connection with the investigation.

"While this is a rare occurrence, we regret the unauthorized access of any individual's private information," the company said Friday in a statement.

Stanley has had contracts with the department since 1992 and was recently awarded a $570 million contract to continue providing support for passport processing. Its CEO, Philip Nolan, contributed $1,000 to the Clinton campaign.

The department official said the three contract employees worked in three offices in the Washington area. One office does consular work and visas on evenings, holidays, weekends and overnights; another office issues passports; the third office scans and files materials.

The source said there has been no problem in the past with the Analysis Corp. employee, who has "extensive" experience. The worker has been with the company for years and has always worked under a State Department contract.

Explaining that the department had "complimented" this person for work in the past, the source said the individual is considered a "terrific" employee, except for this one instance, characterized as an "aberration."

The department asked the Analysis Corp. not to take any administrative action against the employee while the investigation is under way.

On Friday, the company released a statement saying it would fully cooperate with the federal investigation. The source said the Analysis Corp. has told the employee to do the same.

Echoing the State Department spokesman Friday, this source said there is no indication the motivation was anything but curiosity.

The source said Analysis Corp. learned of its employee's actions from the State Department on Friday morning. In its statement, Analysis Corp. confirmed that one of the accused was an employee and called the incident "isolated."

And the hits keep on coming...

[Matt]

so, again, Obama is a racist.
why can't people just come out and say it?:huh: I mean, it's what they feel, but they tip-toe around it like they are getting paid.
I'm sure Obama hates his mother as well. and that he would legislate from a deep, deep hatred of whites.
because that's the kind of politician he has shown himself to be, not by association with wright, but in his career as a politician.

right?

No, thats not what I said at all, but apparently you can't take off your own partisan blinders to actually read what people are saying. I want to know why Obama named man he knew to be racist to a high level advisor on his campaign.

[BlackLantern]

the recruiting station bombs are Americans protesting the war and the military-industrial complex.

[Kelly]

The tone of the speech was the correct one. He basically made the point that if people want to make this all about race and the same old **** that has kept politics the same way for years...go right ahead, he is not going to do that.


His speech was correct in many rights......the timing of it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth......IMO, it could easily go down as a great speech in the history of our country.........but the timing of it makes it dirty.

[Mr Sparkle]

No, thats not what I said at all, but apparently you can't take off your own partisan blinders to actually read what people are saying. I want to know why Obama named man he knew to be racist to a high level advisor on his campaign.

no, that's not what you said, that's merely what you are implying.
I like how I'm partisan now because I happen to disagree with you.:o

[BlackLantern]

His speech was correct in many rights......the timing of it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth......IMO, it could easily go down as a great speech in the history of our country.........but the timing of it makes it dirty.

I'd be tempted to agree...

[Marx]

no, that's not what you said, that's merely what you are implying.
I like how I'm partisan now because I happen to disagree with you.:o

People want legitimate answers to these questions. It has absolutely nothing to do with partisan politics. I think you are misconstruing what Matt is saying. You have a tendency to turn this into a partisan issue, when it is not.

[jaguarr]

Looks like one of Obama's advisers' companies was involved in the passport breach the other day:



And the hits keep on coming...

Yeah, I read that same article. There's nothing there to implicate the CEO or anything nefarious. There were two other contractors from another company that were also involved. They keep chalking it up to "curiosity" on the part of these contract employees. My big question was "Why the hell to contract employees have access to this kind of data?"

the recruiting station bombs are Americans protesting the war and the military-industrial complex.

Source?

jag

[Marx]

Looks like one of Obama's advisers' companies was involved in the passport breach the other day:



And the hits keep on coming...

Hits indeed Jman. This is all just getting more and more interesting.

[BlackLantern]

source?

jag


just a hunch

[Kelly]

The news has brought up that as well......

[Memphis Slim]

The fact is he DID do it. He is the one who brought this racist man into his campaign. The Clinton's did not secretly insert Pastor Wright into Obama's camp. Obama gave him this high ranking position. And now people want answers as to why he would give a known racist a high ranking position and Obama is refusing to answer them saying "We shouldn't make this about race!"


Anybody notice how quiet Oprah has been lately??

[jaguarr]

just a hunch

Well thanks for the definitive statement about who did the NYC recruiting station based on your hunch. :huh:

jag

[Marx]

Anybody notice how quiet Oprah has been lately??

Oprah Winfrey, Caroline Kennedy and Ted Kennedy, John Kerry...yeah, all is quiet on that front. Interesting, isn't it?