Discussion: Racism

[Malice]

I am going to say this now, lets keep this civil, or the hammer of Malice will reign down with little or no mercy here.

Here are my thoughts.

Is the US Racist?
Depends, I think it depends on the age of the person. I think the younger the crowd, the less racist you get because of experience. I am 33, I grew up with blacks/whites/latinos/asians, you name it. It never dawned on my honestly growing up, that there was a "difference."

I never experienced segregation, the riots of the 60's and the things of that nature. Those that experienced those turbulant times, may have a different perspective. Some may be like me, and dont care about race, but some, frankly put, are stuck in their old ways. Most likely they wont change.

Is Racism affecting the primaries?
I would have to say YES. Like explained before, some people will not look past it. I personally like Obama, I would not vote for him because of policies...same as Hillary...

Has Obama, because he is Black been given a pass for more the Primary?
Personally, I feel he was treated quite differently than the other candidates in the beginning. Since the US has never seen a black candidate before that had ANY chance of getting a nomination the press were a little confused on how to treat him.

I think now, especially since he is winning, the press is really realizing, um, they dont have to treat him differently, as we have seen by recent events.

Well, those are my thoughts.
Controvercial or not, they are my thoughts on what I see.

[The Senator]

Norman, equality has been reached? I think that's an exaggeration right there. There was a recent study that found 50% of police stops in New York were done to black people, yet they only make up 25% of the population. Good, hardworking black people have dealt with the "driving while black" profiling for years and it still goes on today. There's nothing equal in that treatment.

Statistics like those are interesting. They don't say that these folks were arrested due to racist means; it says they were arrested for committing a crime. These statistics cover all the police stops in that state-- did it ever strike you that the reason why 50% of the suspects were black is simply because those offenders were black? I'm sure some of those stops were racially motivated, but isn't it possible that it just ended up being that more black folks were stopped because more black folks committed the crime?

[BlackLantern]

29 years as a black man...lived in 5 different states and only pulled over once because I was legitimately speeding....91 in a 55

[Marx]

29 years as a black man...lived in 5 different states and only pulled over once because I was legitimately speeding....91 in a 55

91 in a 55??? Geez man, I hope there was a good reason for speeds of that kind!

[BlackLantern]

91 in a 55??? Geez man, I hope there was a good reason for speeds of that kind!

I was very late for a work function....and it was a Statie too....

[BlackestNight]

Statistics like those are interesting. They don't say that these folks were arrested due to racist means; it says they were arrested for committing a crime. These statistics cover all the police stops in that state-- did it ever strike you that the reason why 50% of the suspects were black is simply because those offenders were black? I'm sure some of those stops were racially motivated, but isn't it possible that it just ended up being that more black folks were stopped because more black folks committed the crime?


29 years as a black man...lived in 5 different states and only pulled over once because I was legitimately speeding....91 in a 55

I used to think exactly like you BlackLantern but I've actually seen little bit if racism in action and to be quite honest it was quite jarring. I have seen several cases happen to my friends and fewer cases happened to me directly.

I will try to keep this short but here is one case it’s not that bad but still kind of made me angry when it took place.

It was our senior year in high school and we had just came back from our last marching band competition. So me and my 7 friend decide to hang out and go get some thing to eat a t the local Wendy’s. My group of friends consisted of me (Black), three other black guys, a white guy, a white girl and a half white half Asian guy. So we went to a drive through and decide to sit in the parking lot to eat. Half way through our food the half Asian friend turns on his CD player and starts playing some music. When we where about half way through our food a cop shows up. Now in my mind and the rest of everyone else mind was the cop showed up to bust the 2 white kids. So we turn to them and laugh because they purposely double park so that the back of there mini van was facing us and they through there food all over ground (Double parking and Littering). So the cop shows up gets up in the face of one of our black friends lets call him Benny. Benny happened to be the only one of us wearing a (Dew rag). So the cop gets in is face screaming at him telling him to turn the music down. Then all of a sudden out of know where he start threading him with fines and telling him that if he wanted to he could drag is sorry a$$ to jail. My friend Benny keeps his head down the whole time. After the Tirade the cop turns around to leave and sees our 2 white friends. Now remember there (double parked) and have litter all around the back of there van. He look at them for lest than 2 secs and just walks away with out saying a word to them.

Now not only did the cop target the Black guy with the due rag on, who was threatened to be fined and or arrested for a noise pollution that he had nothing to do with; but you had 2 white kids that double parked and littered and the cop completely ignored.

What makes me so angry is that we where freaking Band geeks and the cop was treating him like he was a Thug or something.

[ForestAflame]

I used to think exactly like you BlackLantern but I've actually seen little bit if racism in action and to be quite honest it was quite jarring. I have seen several cases happen to my friends and fewer cases happened to me directly.

I will try to keep this short but here is one case it’s not that bad but still kind of made me angry when it took place.

It was our senior year in high school and we had just came back from our last marching band competition. So me and my 7 friend decide to hang out and go get some thing to eat a t the local Wendy’s. My group of friends consisted of me (Black), three other black guys, a white guy, a white girl and a half white half Asian guy. So we went to a drive through and decide to sit in the parking lot to eat. Half way through our food the half Asian friend turns on his CD player and starts playing some music. When we where about half way through our food a cop shows up. Now in my mind and the rest of everyone else mind was the cop showed up to bust the 2 white kids. So we turn to them and laugh because they purposely double park so that the back of there mini van was facing us and they through there food all over ground (Double parking and Littering). So the cop shows up gets up in the face of one of our black friends lets call him Benny. Benny happened to be the only one of us wearing a (Dew rag). So the cop gets in is face screaming at him telling him to turn the music down. Then all of a sudden out of know where he start threading him with fines and telling him that if he wanted to he could drag is sorry a$$ to jail. My friend Benny keeps his head down the whole time. After the Tirade the cop turns around to leave and sees our 2 white friends. Now remember there (double parked) and have litter all around the back of there van. He look at them for lest than 2 secs and just walks away with out saying a word to them.

Now not only did the cop target the Black guy with the due rag on, who was threatened to be fined and or arrested for a noise pollution that he had nothing to do with; but you had 2 white kids that double parked and littered and the cop completely ignored.

What makes me so angry is that we where freaking Band geeks and the cop was treating him like he was a Thug or something.

That's minor. My cousin was recently told to get out of a restaurant, and if he didn't, the white customers threatened to make "alligator bait" out of him.

[Addendum]

That's minor. My cousin was recently told to get out of a restaurant, and if he didn't, the white customers threatened to make "alligator bait" out of him.

Did they say that before or after they ****ed their sisters

[BlackLantern]

That's minor. My cousin was recently told to get out of a restaurant, and if he didn't, the white customers threatened to make "alligator bait" out of him.

That is some BS right there....but those folk like their "Right to refuse service" rule.....and its sheep they ****, not their sisters....

[Addendum]

The sheep****ers are over in Wales.

[BlackLantern]

The sheep****ers are over in Wales.

Funny but unrelated story....our company just opened a UK office and one of their managers was here for a meeting....We were talking and I made a joke about the south and ******* sheep and he says "Oh we have those too...the Welsh"

[Varient]

White music listeners , mature ones, don't identify themselves by the lyrics in those type of music. They don't think Johnny Cash epitomizes who they are suppose to be,....he provides an escapist, fantasy entertainment....like watching an action movie.

Rap entertainment is viewed same way by suburban whites. Most rap musc listeners are white..........but by many in urban black youths as an identity, as a role model, or something to emulate. While whites have all these role models.....young blacks see gangster rap music as something to emulate......when that is your only source of inspiration and you don't have good parents to guide you...(out of marriage births for blacks skyrocketing)....that can be a serious problem.

I think Thomas Sowell and many conservatives have pronounced that family values, strengthening the family unit is paramount to producing an environment where self-respect, love, and educated are nurtured. Without that, and you see decadent crap being pummelled as your culture...then its a problem.

The statements above are racist.

In them you say that even though whites listen to more rap,.. it's only entertainment,.. but for blacks its a way of life or something to emulate. The concept that blacks don't have good role models (like whites) means that they will/can only mean they will follow the worst as outlined by the worst of rap.

Speaking only for my family I can say that NONE of us has taken, used, or emulated any of the negative aspects of Rap. Looking at the black families I'm aware of I don't see it happening to them either.

What I do see most often are white folk (once again) telling me what kind of people we are, what kind of things we do, what motivates us and why WE are messed up.

ALL WITH THE ATTITUDE THAT WE PUT US IN OUR CURRENT POSITION.

Tsk

[Addendum]

Saying that all black youths want to emulate rap artists is like saying all white youths want to emulate black metal artists

[Varient]

So a pastor of a church can't be evil? Thats funny.

The statements made by Wright are every bit as ridiculous and wrong as the statements made by KKK grandwizards. Both preach and control based on hate and dividing the country along racial lines.

It would be like you comparing some white person (who just happened to want to try to eliminate a religious group) to Hitler :up:

We can go there if you like.
Wrights ministry has never preached the violence,.. or followed thru like the KKK has.
Wrights Ministry was not or has never been based on discrimination based on difference.
In the History of Wrights ministry,.. no whites were chased, beat, shot, killed, hung, or segregated because of their color.

Unlike the KKK,.... even though it is a predominatly black organization,.. WHITES are accepted to this church.

Having said all that,... I read of "other" canidates who's religious dealings were slimier in my view that don't get a second look.


V.

[Varient]

29 years as a black man...lived in 5 different states and only pulled over once because I was legitimately speeding....91 in a 55

Sigh.

So the numbers and personal experiences of thousands of others are invalidated because your happy behind slid through the cracks?

MEH.

[StorminNorman]

We can go there if you like.
Wrights ministry has never preached the violence,.. or followed thru like the KKK has.
Wrights Ministry was not or has never been based on discrimination based on difference.
In the History of Wrights ministry,.. no whites were chased, beat, shot, killed, hung, or segregated because of their color.

Unlike the KKK,.... even though it is a predominatly black organization,.. WHITES are accepted to this church.

Having said all that,... I read of "other" canidates who's religious dealings were slimier in my view that don't get a second look.


V.

Both Black Separation Theology and White Supremacy promote and encourage racial segregation and preach hate of another race. The KKK used violence, yes - but I am focusing purely on the philosophical teachings of both. They are both similar in the fact that they try nothing but divide America by racial lines. I have just a much a problem with Obama going to a Black Separation church as I would if Senator Byrd ran for President with a history in the KKK.

[Excel]

All this talk of the specifics of hate just drives the divisions amongst us deeper..

:up:

[BlackLantern]

Sigh.

So the numbers and personal experiences of thousands of others are invalidated because your happy behind slid through the cracks?

MEH.

it's not invalid or marginalized...I was just speaking from my personal experience....

[SentinelMind]

The statements above are racist.

In them you say that even though whites listen to more rap,.. it's only entertainment,.. but for blacks its a way of life or something to emulate. The concept that blacks don't have good role models (like whites) means that they will/can only mean they will follow the worst as outlined by the worst of rap.

Speaking only for my family I can say that NONE of us has taken, used, or emulated any of the negative aspects of Rap. Looking at the black families I'm aware of I don't see it happening to them either.

What I do see most often are white folk (once again) telling me what kind of people we are, what kind of things we do, what motivates us and why WE are messed up.

I'm Black, BTW. Am I racist against myself?

Second, personal anecdotal evidence, which I see in this thread often, does not substitute for overall patterns, trends, and data. I didn't say all blacks view rap as a way of life, but that due to most rappers being black, rap being most popular music for young black Americans, and the lack of role models for many blacks in....many young blacks will be more influenced by the negative aspects of rap than people in other races. I'm going to assume you're of a middle class, two parent home? That's not representative of all Blacks.

Others cannot relate to what rappers talk about...but they can indulge in the entertainment and go away escaping from it. Many young blacks are surrounded by that influence and incorporate ....not just the criminal elements of rap (drugs) , but the negative attitude of rap (hate "the man", hate the system, act like you're hard and don't have to answer to anyone) and discouraged from pushing themselves out of that atmosphere, environment...and on to a track of professonal, stable success.

[The Senator]

All this talk of the specifics of hate just drives the divisions amongst us deeper..

:up:

It's an important discussion. Hate exists on all levels, on all fronts, among all people. Some folks don't realize that, apparently.

[BlackLantern]

I think a large problem in the black community is the disdain for education....the mocking and bullying of those who strive for educational and academic success at elementary, middle, and high schools....

[StorminNorman]

All this talk of the specifics of hate just drives the divisions amongst us deeper..

:up:

Which is why I condemn both extremes equally.

[That'ssuper!]

The thing is, for a country which is supposed to have gone past racist politics in the Civil Rights Movement, why is it still applied to the negatives it?

[Matt]

The statements above are racist.

In them you say that even though whites listen to more rap,.. it's only entertainment,.. but for blacks its a way of life or something to emulate. The concept that blacks don't have good role models (like whites) means that they will/can only mean they will follow the worst as outlined by the worst of rap.

Speaking only for my family I can say that NONE of us has taken, used, or emulated any of the negative aspects of Rap. Looking at the black families I'm aware of I don't see it happening to them either.

What I do see most often are white folk (once again) telling me what kind of people we are, what kind of things we do, what motivates us and why WE are messed up.

ALL WITH THE ATTITUDE THAT WE PUT US IN OUR CURRENT POSITION.

Tsk

To an extent you are responsible for your current position. For the past 30 years or so, the opportunities have been out there, and yet for the most part, African American youth turns their back on them.

Whether you will admit it or not, rap music is a big reason. Rap music is no longer just music, it is an entire counter culture, and sure, you can say all music creates such subcultures, but none has been as prevelant in any culture as the rap subculture has become in the African American culture. The two have almost become ingrained with one another and that does create problems for the society as a whole.

[Varient]

I'm Black, BTW. Am I racist against myself?

Second, personal anecdotal evidence, which I see in this thread often, does not substitute for overall patterns, trends, and data. I didn't say all blacks view rap as a way of life, but that due to most rappers being black, rap being most popular music for young black Americans, and the lack of role models for many blacks in....many young blacks will be more influenced by the negative aspects of rap than people in other races. I'm going to assume you're of a middle class, two parent home? That's not representative of all Blacks.

Others cannot relate to what rappers talk about...but they can indulge in the entertainment and go away escaping from it. Many young blacks are surrounded by that influence and incorporate ....not just the criminal elements of rap (drugs) , but the negative attitude of rap (hate "the man", hate the system, act like you're hard and don't have to answer to anyone) and discouraged from pushing themselves out of that atmosphere, environment...and on to a track of professonal, stable success.

Two points,... no three:
1. If it were not possible to be "racist against your color" there wouldn't be terms like "Uncle Tom", "House Negro" And, "Field Negro" - So get off the "I'm black so I can continue to say divisive stupid stuff that tears us down as a group."
(I'm so tired of THE FIRST thing someone says when they KNOW they are wrong to lump a large portion of us together is : I'm black.)

2. Please don't play the "most", "Many" game with us. Somehow based on your attitude I doubt SERIOUSLY that you've ever lived in a ghetto let alone have a CLUE as to what others listen and emulate.
As far as overall patterns, (Generally white driven, as in they take ONE example and put it on ALL of us and say "it's a pattern."),
Trends, (Which has shown a STEADY decrease in BLACK related gang-driven crime with an Increase in White and Hispanic,... but hey,... we ain't hearing that,.. we in the middle of saying how bad blacks are right and the uninformed believe the trend is for blacks who listen to rap in lower than middleclass neighborhoods WILL become criminals.),
and DATA, (Holy crap! I have yet to find data that coorelates listeners of rap who are black being more likely to become gansters OR do crime.), I have to say that most of what you tried to put up as proof - is in most cases what the whites who need to believe that racism is a thing of the past - and all the hassles we go through today our simply our fault.

3. You assume incorrectly. I was Born and Raised on North 49th Street in Philadelphia Penn and there is NO WAY you could go there and even THINK that that place is in any way "middleclass."

I think my problem with you is you simply don't know,.. but you gonna tell us like you have a clue.

You black? Please stop reading what white folk are telling us sight unseen about our problems.

TSK.

[Varient]

To an extent you are responsible for your current position. For the past 30 years or so, the opportunities have been out there, and yet for the most part, African American youth turns their back on them.

Whether you will admit it or not, rap music is a big reason. Rap music is no longer just music, it is an entire counter culture, and sure, you can say all music creates such subcultures, but none has been as prevelant in any culture as the rap subculture has become in the African American culture. The two have almost become ingrained with one another and that does create problems for the society as a whole.

Honestly Matt.
If I'd not lived it,.. I'd give you the benifit.
Do you really think we make up terms that are STILL used over the last fifty years like:
Last Hired, First Fired or Driving while Black?

There are too many of us who just want to have a good life as far as a job we enjoy, a place we can live w/o hassle and enough left over to help our children succeed.

I can safely say that even with the "opportunities" there are too many who get in the way, derail, or mess up honest Hardworking blacks who are not even thinking about rap.

That's why I SNEERED at that person who bragged about being black,.. being 29 years old and only getting stopped by the police ONCE when he was speeding.

Jesus Christ,... In twenty years of service to this country in EVERY SMALL TOWN I was stationed in,... the local cops pulled me over and went thru my stuff REGULARLY like I had just come from robbing a store.

EVERY SMALL TOWN.

In Places like Detroit,.. I've had police break out SHOTGUNS and surround my car waiting for confirmation that I was the one that robbed a bank IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FREAKING DAY and when the eyewitness came up and said I was NOT the black man they thought did it they left w/o any sort of apology.

Most of my life I get followed in department stores. Until I was thirty,... if I had ANYTHING "TOO NICE" I had to cough up a reciept to prove I didn't steal it.

Applying for jobs,... I HAD TO ALWAYS PROVE MY KNOWLEDGE,.. Like blacks off the street w/o education apply for computer software/hardware jobs?

Once I have a Job - in order to "fit in" I have to suffer at least SIX MONTHS of whites "who were not racist" trying to trip me up or put any errors on the bench on me,... Then an additional period sidestepping the hostility of refusing to cover for the same folk who tried to stick it to me in the first place.

See,.. I'm living this. I have opportunity but I have to fight to get and use it. It's not enough to be competent,.. I've got to be magical to get SOMEWHERE close to where I want to be. Multiply that by thousands of black males and you have a whole lotta them who say "Why bother?"

"Why do I have to fight for what is given to others on the color of their skin?"

Affirmative action? All for it as long as it is used as it was meant to. I feel the need to scream when some white person *****es about a black with GREAT grades being given the chance for an education over an average grade white student.


Matt,..... It's not Rap.

V.

[Varient]

Here's the deal:

Whites want to show as a group that it's all us,... they need to :

Get rid of the over 100 white supremist organizations in America.

Stop doing color-based dirt on others then playing dumb when they get caught.

Stop with the unequal justice system.

Stop with letting the media get away with crap (classic - two whites pictured in Katrina "foraging for food" one black with a bag wading thru the same mess "looter".)

Then we can talk about us.

[kainedamo]

Punisher #57 by Garth Ennis

James wasn't an angel and he wasn't a saint. I'm trying to be as honest as possible, but there are realities for a black man born into an American ghetto that most of your readers will not accept. I have to balance that with the truth. So if I say that James was brave, he was a quick thinker, he was easily bored, he was surrounded by temptation but had almost nothing in the wa of opportunity open to him - that will have to serve as background to what happened. He was convicted of selling narcotics and given a choice by the judge: prison or the draft.

The scars left by chains and shackles last a long time, even after they come off. Black people began their time in this country so far below the lowest rung on the social ladder that - even if we had not suggered the discrimination that we have - it would take a race of supermen a thousand years of toil to make our position equal to that of white people. We are only human beings. So it is no surprise that there is still, and will be for years to come, thousandsw of dirt-poor black men susceptible to being sucked up by the U.S. military machine. The only thing that does surprise me is it took the bigoted fools who run this country until World War Two - not even seventy years ago - to accept that as cannon fodder, blacks are just as capable as whites.

I've always been angry about James' death. Not the details of it, which base he was killed at or whether the defenses were properly organized, or any of it. He was as likely to die in one part of Vietnam as another. No, what makes me angry is the tought of a machine that feds people like James into wars in the first place.

The majority of the black population in this country is still bound up within its major cities. Still ghettoized. And we are deliberately kept that way; we are starved of resources, we are denied equality in education and employment, we have narcotics funneled into our neighborhoods to the point that our lives become, to all intents and purposes, criminalized. Even the punishments for crimes committed by black people are harsher than those meted out to whites. Our young people grow up knowing levels of poverty, or to deal drugs, what other choice do they have? Well, well, look who's waiting to welcome them with open arms: whether it was the draft back in the 60's and 70's or the recruiters today, just look who's waiting to snap them up.

Now, I see from the look on your face that you are having a hard time swallowing this, am I right?

I agree with some of what you're saying, some of it we could probably argue back and forth. But I think what even the most liberal-minded reader will take issue with is you connecting the dots like that, a consipracy theory wherein black people are kept wretched so that they can be recruited by the U..S. military...

Conspiracy theory? Okay, let's call it that. Generally, when people talk about these kinds of consipracies, what they say to reassure themselves is this: it couldn't happen, because someone would say something. Someone would either find out, or someone on the inside would have an attack of conscience, and it would all come out. But it seems to me that someone does always say something, just like I'm telling you the things I have - and it's simply a step too far for most people to believe them. So the idea is dismissed as crazy.

Look at the money spent on schools in the inner cities. Look at the levels of investment in jobs and infrascructure in those areas. Look at the disparity between the penalties for possessing cocaine, a drug used mostly by whites, and crack, used by blacks. Look at Detroit, or Bltimore, or Newark, or Oakland. Look out the window.

But there are plenty of economically dsiadvantaged white people, Hispanic people...

And the military will be only yoo happy to sweep them up in its loving arms, too. I'm not saying this is a trick that was invented to play on black people, far from it. But like I said earlier, we start from a place that's worse than most. And that makes us prime meat.

So long as we're talking about race, is it encouraging to you that two young men like James and Stevie - one black and from an urban enviornment, one white and rural - can meet under circumstances as awful as the war they fought in and become friends? Look after each other, protect each other?

You read Huckleberry Finn at an impressionable age, didn't you? Look, it's better than them doing the opposite, of course. But you're talking about young men in a dangerous place, of course some of them are going to form those kinds of bonds. The point is that it took a place like that to bring them together, in a way that never would have happened here in America. That's the tragedy, that a friendship that thrived in hell wouldn't work in normal, everyday society.

I'm a little shocked by that. You truly don't believe the two of them would have been friends anyway?

Mr. Goodwin, can you tell me how they would have even met? Never mind the fact that your brother grew up in a little town in Indiana; even if he had been a New Yorker, what exactly would the circumstances have been where he and my brother - from the South Bronx, remember - could ever have gotten to know each other like they did?

[kainedamo]

Cabrini-Green

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabrini-Green

Cabrini-Green is a Chicago Housing Authority (CHA) public housing development on Chicago's North Side, bordered by Evergreen Avenue, Sedgwick Street, Chicago Avenue, and Larrabee Street. At its height, Cabrini-Green was home to 15,000 people,[1] living in mid- and high-rise apartment buildings. Over the years, gang violence and neglect created terrible conditions for the residents, and the name "Cabrini-Green" became synonymous with the problems associated with public housing in the United States.

As of 2008, around 2,000 residents remain in Cabrini-Green.[2] Most of the buildings have been razed and the entire neighborhood is being redeveloped into a combination of high-rise buildings and row houses, with the stated goal of creating a mixed-income neighborhood, with some units reserved for public housing tenants. Controversy regarding the implementation of these plans has arisen.[3]

How problems developed...

Poverty and organized crime have long been associated with the area: a 1931 "map of Chicago's gangland" by Bruce-Roberts, Inc. notes Locust and Sedgwick as "Death Corner": "50 murders: count 'em"[5] At first, the housing was integrated and many residents held jobs. This changed in the years after World War II, when the nearby factories that provided the neighborhood's economic base closed and laid off thousands. At the same time, the cash-strapped city began withdrawing crucial services like police patrols, transit services, and routine building maintenance. Lawns were paved over to save on maintenance, failed lights were left for months, and apartments damaged by fire were simply boarded up instead of rehabilitated and reoccupied. Later phases of public housing development (such as the Green Homes, the newest of the Cabrini-Green buildings) were built on extremely tight budgets and suffered from maintenance problems due to the quality of construction.


You can read the article yourself, it's very interesting, and points out the problems with these types of housing projects, and the total lack of regard the government has for people stuck in these situations.

And Matt, you're telling me that black people are somehow supposed to rise up from a hell like that, and with minimal help from the government, a lack of local jobs, a lack of educational facilities, all of those problems... they're supposed to rise up from ghettos like some sort of fairy tale movie ending?

You're very naive, Matt. I'd even say you're blind and ignorant.

[BlackLantern]

I can only say I've been fortunate....maybe people are more progressive here in the Northeast when it comes to race relations. I experienced some racism in the USN, but it was always at the enlisted level and never from any of my superiors. As for Varients' post....the only thing I can relate to is being followed around in specific stores I go into, it hasn't happened in a while but it was a regular occurrence when I was a teenager.

From the time I was born to about 10 years old, I lived in the North End of Bridgeport, CT...Bridgeport is the largest city in CT and has plenty of "ghetto" spread out throughout the city....my mom and stepfather scrimped and saved and moved us out of there because she wanted my sister and I to have a fair chance in the world....I'm sorry I don't have a laundry list of complaints against the white man for oppressing me or whatever. To some, I'm not considered "black" enough....I have been called and "Uncle Tom" and a "house ******" and those two insults hurt bad...and they have come from other black people....

[SentinelMind]

Two points,... no three:
1. If it were not possible to be "racist against your color" there wouldn't be terms like "Uncle Tom", "House Negro" And, "Field Negro" - So get off the "I'm black so I can continue to say divisive stupid stuff that tears us down as a group."
(I'm so tired of THE FIRST thing someone says when they KNOW they are wrong to lump a large portion of us together is : I'm black.)

Nope, I'm correcting your false assumption initially wrote that I was white which you quickly tried to duck away from and cover yourself with this diatribe. Ok, you're Black, you have an opinion. I'm Black...I have an opinion....calling people Uncle Toms for having a different opinion than you is an example of the racist, divisive rhetoric you hypocritically claim to be against. I love myself, I love my family, I love my people I've been around, I want to improve my community but I'm not going to run away from pointing out problems in my community because it hurts the self-esteem of emotionally defensive people like yourself.

2. Please don't play the "most", "Many" game with us. Somehow based on your attitude I doubt SERIOUSLY that you've ever lived in a ghetto let alone have a CLUE as to what others listen and emulate.
As far as overall patterns, (Generally , as in they take ONE example and put it on ALL of us and say "it's a pattern."),

?? WTf? :whatever: statistics are "white thing" now.


Trends, (Which has shown a STEADY decrease in BLACK related gang-driven crime with an Increase in White and Hispanic,... but hey,... we ain't hearing that,.. we in the middle of saying how bad blacks are right and the uninformed believe the trend is for blacks who listen to rap in lower than middleclass neighborhoods WILL become criminals.),

I never said Blacks will become criminals or that most are criminals or that they are all bad. Jesus Christ :whatever:, you're on an emotional roller coaster. I do stand by my argument that I think gangster rap music has been instrumental in propagating a mentality that prevents blacks from succeeding, putting their best foot forward in competing against people of other races. I'm criticizing the music and the values it represents.

and DATA, (Holy crap! I have yet to find data that coorelates listeners of rap who are black being more likely to become gansters OR do crime.), I have to say that most of what you tried to put up as proof - is in most cases what the whites who need to believe that racism is a thing of the past - and all the hassles we go through today our simply our fault.

You're making too many quick assumptions. I never said racism is a thing
of the past.....I think solving problems in the black community cannot be solved quickly by screaming racism at others.....

The fact of the matter is people will always be racist...although to various degrees.....but the only way to move forward is work hard, engage with people around you, find out what you want, learn about the world,...and move forward. Screaming that the person you're competing against is unfair to you won't solve your problems. Life isn't fair...it will never be fair. You have to study your opponent, study the opportunities around you and go for it....whining that the "man" is going to stop will never lead to success.

I think my problem with you is you simply don't know,.. but you gonna tell us like you have a clue.

Who is us? :whatever: I like how you think you put yourself on some pedestal as if your are somehow more representative of Blacks than another Black person. I couldn't stand people like you, make yourselves speakers of all Black people. I've never done that once in this thread. You might be a smart guy but I think you're overally arrogant and have limited yourself to reading topics pertaining to black community.

You black? Please stop reading what white folk are telling us sight unseen about our problems.

Yeah, damn that Malcolm X, Thomas Sowell, Bill Cosby and other blacks who grew up in urban community and who have been critical of problems in the black community and have written lengthy reasarch and columns about them. They must all be "Uncle Toms" :whatever: because they disagree with you and offend your sensibilities.

[Addendum]

Funny, because when I read his post I didn't recall him ever calling you an Uncle Tom or other **** like that.

[SentinelMind]

^I know you're just trying to provoke a response for your enjoyment, but if you want to be that specific and literal and ignore the obvious blatant implications of his post,...... I never said anywhere he called me specifically those terms....but he did imply that anyone who for Blacks who disagreed with his opinions, it was legitimate for them to be called those terms.

[The Senator]

Isn't there a rule against 'race baiting?'

This is turning into an argument about "who said what" versus a debate on the issues.

[SentinelMind]

http://www.brookings.edu/papers/1996/08childrenfamilies_akerlof.aspx

The out-of-wedlock births rate for whites and blacks have skyrocketed since the 70s....


The sexual revolution, change and deterioration in family values, and commitment has a STRONG correlation betweent he increase in out of wedlock marriages. You'd think all the access to condoms, abortions would have led to a decrease in out of wedlock births? But it doesn't....in fact its the complete opposite. All this sexual education and access to contraceptives joined with lack of respect for traditions, past cultural norms seems to increase the spread of STDs, and out-of-wedlock births...and the impact on Black Americans have been much more significant.

There is a strong correlation between out-of-wedlock births and living in poverty.

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed101305c.cfm

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/CDA01-04.cfm


Gangster rap music has a higher likelihood of promoting earlier and irresponsible sexual activity and violent behavior than those who don't listen to it...

http%3a//xpress.sfsu.edu/archives/life/006238.html (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu7BnXjBIiB8BMSRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTBzZWRva3R lBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMjEEY29sbwNhYzIEdnRpZAM-/SIG=12440i93s/EXP=1211215847/**http%3a//xpress.sfsu.edu/archives/life/006238.html)

http://www.blackelectorate.com/articles.asp?ID=821


The presence of rap music and the irresponsible values it presents has a strong impact on the economic progress of Black Americans.

[kainedamo]

lol, that's ****ing ridiculous right there.

Read my wiki article about Cabrini-Green on the previous page.

Cabrini-Green didn't turn into a living nightmare 'cause of rap music. It turned into a hell hole 'cause all of a sudden people were out of jobs, the police stopped going there, and the government let the whole area just drop into disrepair.

Your country is amazing. You want to blame a music genre for issues that result out of poverty.

A black mail is more likely to listen to rap music 'cause more black people are in the ghettos where rap music is popular. So of course you're gonna have a lot of pregnant teens that listen to rap.

Get a ****ing clue, SentinalMind.

[Matt]

Language Kaine, just because something is censored does not mean you can use it excessively.

No one is blaming the music. They are blaming the counter culture that has developed around the music. The counter culture that says it is better to become a drug dealer than go to school. The counter culture that says it is okay to rape women. The counter culture that treats murder like a norm. And sadly, many sociological studies will show this counter culture is DOMINANT amongst African American youthes.

[SentinelMind]

lol, that's ****ing ridiculous right there.

Read my wiki article about Cabrini-Green on the previous page.

Cabrini-Green didn't turn into a living nightmare 'cause of rap music. It turned into a hell hole 'cause all of a sudden people were out of jobs, the police stopped going there, and the government let the whole area just drop into disrepair.

Your country is amazing. You want to blame a music genre for issues that result out of poverty.

A black mail [sic] is more likely to listen to rap music 'cause more black people are in the ghettos where rap music is popular. So of course you're gonna have a lot of pregnant teens that listen to rap.

Get a ****ing clue, SentinalMind.

Learn to spell and argue without using profanity. You don't live here yet you are such an expert on these issues.

I never said rap music in itself is responsible for all the problems, but I think the cultural values they represent are have a significant impact on the problems in the Black Community. Of course I'll read your article, hopefully, you'll be open-minded enough to read the articles and op-eds I posted.

Listen to your arguments. YOU OPENLY ADMIT that there is a strong correlation to the black pregnant teenagers and the music they listen. You immediately dismiss the relationship as being coincidental, because you want to.

What does your one wiki-article have to do with all the problems that are afflicting the Black Community? Yes, the big urban sprawled cities government lacked the funding and were hindered by bureacracy to enforce laws and stability in the region and that led to urban decay. Those big government public housing programs that keep blacks dependant on the government has done wonders to hinder the success of Black Americans...and on top of that...the bureacracy failed to do what it even tried to achieve.

These government programs alone cannot solve problems in black community. That's something I don't think you understand.

And YOUR solution is to produce more public housing units? :whatever: Provide more funding for these liberal pet projects.

[kainedamo]

Language Kaine, just because something is censored does not mean you can use it excessively.

No one is blaming the music. They are blaming the counter culture that has developed around the music. The counter culture that says it is better to become a drug dealer than go to school. The counter culture that says it is okay to rape women. The counter culture that treats murder like a norm. And sadly, many sociological studies will show this counter culture is DOMINANT amongst African American youthes.

And fat people watch TV.

You're asking the wrong questions, going on the wrong lines. The question isn't whether a culture of "gonna shoot the such and such gonna get some hos" kinda stuff influences young black people. The question is, where has this culture sprouted up from?

Ghettos.

What has the government done to invest in cleaning up inner cities and invest in jobs?

Very little.

How many years after the New Orleans disaster, and the city still looks like trash.

These are the questions that need asked and answered.

Not completely pointless studies on the effects of rap music.

[kainedamo]

Listen to your arguments. YOU OPENLY ADMIT that there is a strong correlation to the black pregnant teenagers and the music they listen. You immediately dismiss the relationship as being coincidental, because you want to.

This is going to be very hard for you to understand.

A young black dude in an inner city whose parents are either jobless or working 2 or 3 jobs, surrounded by other disenfranchised young black people, where the culture of rap music has come from - what do you think he's going to listen to? More than likely rap music. Was he poor and living in a ghetto before he started listening to rap music? Yes. Did the rap music make him poor and put him in a ghetto? No. You're like, "black people + rap music = teenage pregnancies! COINCIDENCE??" Which is such an incredible over-simplification of the issue.

What has the government done to try and cut down on teenage pregnancies?

I'll tell you. George Bush absolutely refuses to put any funding into sex education that teaches anything other than abstinance only. And yet teenage pregnancy rates are still very high in the inner cities - COINCIDENCE??

Do you get it yet?

Black people listen to rap music.
Japanese people watch anime.
Fat people wath tv.
Southerners like country music.

What has any of that got to do with anything?

I swore at you because quite frankly I'm angry at you. You're very naive to the problems that face the US.

[SentinelMind]

And fat people watch TV.

You're asking the wrong questions, going on the wrong lines. The question isn't whether a culture of "gonna shoot the such and such gonna get some hos" kinda stuff influences young black people. The question is, where has this culture sprouted up from?

Ghettos.

What has the government done to invest in cleaning up inner cities and invest in jobs?

Very little.

Wrong....bureacrats have spent millions and millions of these Great Society programs that you cherish so much...and have yet shown to be an utter failure, by your own wiki-article. they don't work. more government bureacracies and feel-good programs don't work in solving these problems.

[kainedamo]

Wrong....bureacrats have spent millions and millions of these Great Society programs that you cherish so much...and have yet shown to be an utter failure, by your own wiki-article. they don't work. more government bureacracies and feel-good programs don't work in solving these problems.

When have I said anything like that?

The whole point of my wiki article is that the government failed these people that were in dire need.

[SentinelMind]

[quote=SentinelMind;14830814]

This is going to be very hard for you to understand.

A young black dude in an inner city whose parents are either jobless or working 2 or 3 jobs, surrounded by other disenfranchised young black people, where the culture of rap music has come from - what do you think he's going to listen to? More than likely rap music. Was he poor and living in a ghetto before he started listening to rap music? Yes. Did the rap music make him poor and put him in a ghetto? No. You're like, "black people + rap music = teenage pregnancies! COINCIDENCE??" Which is such an incredible over-simplification of the issue.

I never said the rap music MADE him poor...but if he allows the music to influence his line of thinking and the music produces values that lead to failure...then yes....the music can contribute to maintaining their poverty.


What has the government done to try and cut down on teenage pregnancies?

I'll tell you. George Bush absolutely refuses to put any funding into sex education that teaches anything other than abstinance only. And yet teenage pregnancy rates are still very high in the inner cities - COINCIDENCE??

Do you get it yet?

This is an intentionally misleading argument you're presenting. Yes, President Bush doesn't like to fund sex education programs...but sex education programs have been existence for decades and with increased funding at the local and state level, and Presidents before him....along with increased access to contraceptives and this thing called right to an abortion from Roe v Wade, the sexual revolution, etc..etc......you'd think the number of teenage pregnancies and STDs would decrease....but they DON'T...they SKYROCKET instead. One President's unwillingnes cannot compete against that plethora of cultural and policy shifts in this country spanning decades. Why has this been occuring. Because the culture and now the government encourages younng teenagers engage in risky sexual behavior and hinds the risks of that behavior. You now have the government hiding sexual activity of teenagers from their own parents, trying to get them abortions behind parents back...the government wants to thwart the family unit and make these kids dependent upon them.

[kainedamo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabrini-Green#Tenant_activism

Tenant activism

In response to the various problems associated with living in Cabrini-Green, residents have organized over the years both to pressure the city for assistance and to protect and support each other.

In 1996, the federal government mandated the destruction of 18,000 units of public housing in Chicago (along with tens of thousands of other units nationwide). In response, some Cabrini-Green tenant activists have organized to prevent themselves from becoming homeless and to protect what they and their supporters see as a right to public housing for the city's poorest residents. The activists succeeded in obtaining a consent decree guaranteeing that some buildings will remain standing while the new structures are built, so that tenants can remain in their homes until new ones are available.[7] The document also guarantees displaced Cabrini residents a home in the new neighborhood.

In 2004, a tenants group sued the CHA over relocation plans for displaced residents of Cabrini-Green under the city's Plan for Transformation, a $1.4 billion blueprint for public housing renewal. Richard Wheelock, an attorney representing the tenants, said the authority's demolition program had outpaced its reconstruction program, thus leaving families with few options beyond similarly or identically dangerous and segregated areas elsewhere in the city, or simply being forced out of the residences and becoming homeless.



So the government, not 80 years ago, not 60 or 50 years ago, but just a little over 10 years ago was going to make thousands of residents homeless.

[kainedamo]

At the end of the day, Americans need to look at issues more deeply, and resist the temptation to blame MUSIC for the very real and genuine problems people face.

Americans have been blaming music for all sorts since the 60's.

This really, really is no different. SentinalMind, your logic is the same logic that allows certain folks to blame video games for murders. "Such and such killed a bunch of guys in school, he owns a copy of Doom - 2 + 2 = 5, Doom made the kid kill!"

But it's like, school shootings happen in suburban areas and are committed by teenagers.

Pasty young teenagers in suburban areas *GASP* play video games! So how can it be any surprise to people some of these guys own video games? And yet people are like "this guy murdered people and owned video games - COINCIDENCE???"

You're like, "black teenager gets another teenager pregnant and he LISTENS TO RAP MUSIC!! COINCIDENCE???"

Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is? He's a teenager, he's black, of course rap music is more than likely gonna be the music of choice for this guy!!

I'm not saying rap music has the best ideas. But then, some rap music is quite intelligent. But the point is, people have been blaming music for teen sex, violence, and all sorts for decades. The only real difference is, is that rap music is an easier target because its the music of choice for black people.

[SentinelMind]

^I believe in personal responsibility and that only way to succeed in this world is through hard work and discipline. I don't believe people can suceed if they always paint themselves as a victim of society ..etc.. Yes, there was a point where people were prevented from succeeding by government barriers, .....but once you remove those barriers, you're put in a position where you have to steer your own ship.

Studies have shown that people who play lots of violent video games are more likely to engage in violent behavior than those who don't. I'm not suggesting we ban rap music or violent video games. I don't believe in censorship. I understand the cost-benefit analysis that the entertainment value of rap music/video games is higher than the impact those influences may have on society. But I do believe you are what you eat. If you surround yourself by bad influences and make bad decisions, tough luck. Lot of these people who are suffering didn't have good influences and made bad decisions that put them in tight tough spot. That's what life is about. Personal responsibility...make the right decisions that lead to a good life. Be responsible. be focused, ignore the distractions and temptation.


Just because people have been blaming one's cultural values on their predicament doesn't mean that they are wrong.

[StorminNorman]

Here's the deal:

Whites want to show as a group that it's all us,... they need to :

Get rid of the over 100 white supremist organizations in America.

Stop doing color-based dirt on others then playing dumb when they get caught.

Stop with the unequal justice system.

Stop with letting the media get away with crap (classic - two whites pictured in Katrina "foraging for food" one black with a bag wading thru the same mess "looter".)

Then we can talk about us.

The white supremest groups have no credibility - they are harmless because people see them for what they are: arrogant, idiotic deplorable people.

Whats more dangerous is the people like Sharpton, Jackson and Wright who DO have credibility and who make their living on telling blacks they are being repressed by white Americans. This type of message prevents the black community from improving itself from within by having them play the victim card. As long as the black community continues to believe that the problems in their community is solely the fault of others - they will never be able to overcome the past.

[kainedamo]

I believe in personal responsibility and that only way to succeed in this world is through hard work and discipline. I don't believe people can suceed if they always paint themselves as a victim of society ..etc.. Yes, there was a point where people were prevented from succeeding by government barriers, .....but once you remove those barriers, you're put in a position where you have to steer your own ship.

Studies have shown that people who play lots of violent video games are more likely to engage in violent behavior than those who don't. I'm not suggesting we ban rap music or violent video games. I don't believe in censorship. I understand the cost-benefit analysis that the entertainment value of rap music/video games is higher than the impact those influences may have on society. But I do believe you are what you eat. If you surround yourself by bad influences and make bad decisions, tough luck. Lot of these people who are suffering didn't have good influences and made bad decisions that put them in tight tough spot. That's what life is about. Personal responsibility...make the right decisions that lead to a good life. Be responsible. be focused, ignore the distractions and temptation.


Just because people have been blaming one's cultural values on their predicament doesn't mean that they are wrong.

Read my post on the previous page. The post above the Cabrini-Green article I posted.

"The scars left by chains and shackles last a long time, even after they come off. Black people began their time in this country so far below the lowest rung on the social ladder that - even if we had not suggered the discrimination that we have - it would take a race of supermen a thousand years of toil to make our position equal to that of white people. We are only human beings."

I believe in personal responsibility too... that's why I don't blame video games and rap music for society's problems.

I also believe that no issue is black and white. Yes, personal responsibility, but also recognising that if thousands and thousands of black people are still ghettoized, if New Orleans is still a **** hole after the hurricane disaster, then the government isn't living up to its responsibility.

What do you do if you're a young black teenager in a ghetto area with narcotics being pushed around everyday? What do you do if you're poor with no local opportunities and you're surrounded by temptation to make easy money from selling crack?

[SentinelMind]

Read my post on the previous page. The post above the Cabrini-Green article I posted.

"The scars left by chains and shackles last a long time, even after they come off. Black people began their time in this country so far below the lowest rung on the social ladder that - even if we had not suggered the discrimination that we have - it would take a race of supermen a thousand years of toil to make our position equal to that of white people. We are only human beings."

Ummmmmmmm...ok, you do know there are no facts in that quote, its just some writer's opinion about society.....they are no facts or evidence to test. It's one writer's romantic personification and perspective of history.

I believe in personal responsibility too... that's why I don't blame video games and rap music for society's problems.

All I said is they influence people...I'm not saying the influences should be held responsible for person's behavior.....but that the influences exist.

I also believe that no issue is black and white. Yes, personal responsibility, but also recognising that if thousands and thousands of black people are still ghettoized, if New Orleans is still a **** hole after the hurricane disaster, then the government isn't living up to its responsibility.

What do you do if you're a young black teenager in a ghetto area with narcotics being pushed around everyday? What do you do if you're poor with no local opportunities and you're surrounded by temptation to make easy money from selling crack?

It is your responsibility to avoid those influences.....not saying it is easy, I understand it is very difficult, but you must try anyway, because you don't have any other choice....other than immerse yourself in the crap. It takes a lot of hard discipline and determination to avoid those influences.

I'm all for being harder on those drug dealers....but of course, lot of the same liberals who make complaints you are making are the same ones who complain we should repeal the drug laws, legalize marijuana, be softer of drug laws because they disproportionally affect blacks......I'm all for locking them away and getting them off the streets, but the criminal rights and civil rights lawyers, groups firms protect them, portray as victims of "society"

Let's lock up all those drug dealers, pass harsher sentences, make them do real hard time.....I'm all for that.

[ObakeTora]

To an extent you are responsible for your current position. For the past 30 years or so, the opportunities have been out there, and yet for the most part, African American youth turns their back on them.

Whether you will admit it or not, rap music is a big reason. Rap music is no longer just music, it is an entire counter culture, and sure, you can say all music creates such subcultures, but none has been as prevelant in any culture as the rap subculture has become in the African American culture. The two have almost become ingrained with one another and that does create problems for the society as a whole.

I agree Matt, but you should also look at the motives behind rap music before you make that judgment, it's easy to get angry at black youths for thinking the only career choices out there are rap and sports (that pisses me off too) but the truth is black youths are a huge target for exploitive businesses that only seek profit in someone's demise. You have these kids that are the victims of a nihilistic culture spawned 200 years ago when the first slave walked off the boat. My point is, that attitude about black youths is just a gestation of the slave mentality; (at some point it was illegal for us to read) if you get a chance to speak with alot of kids in inner-cities they will most likely laugh at you if you suggest to them to pursue a career in something other then rap or sports. This is what got me angry at Bill Cosby's comments regarding black parents. Yea I agree with Bill but I don't agree with his methods. There are too many of us pointing the blame instead of becoming the solution. I dunno, this is why Im working on my Master's in education. I just want to be part of the solution.

[BlackLantern]

There are too many of us pointing the blame instead of becoming the solution. I dunno, this is why Im working on my Master's in education. I just want to be part of the solution.

the people you are trying to help will ridicule you and call you things like "Uncle Tom" and "house ******"....also call you a sellout as well...

[ObakeTora]

No they won't. Because I won't come at them like that.

[BlackLantern]

No they won't. Because I won't come at them like that.

It doesn't matter how you come at them....They have been bombarded with images of athletic and hip-hop glory from a very young age....How do you think they are going to react when someone tells them they have to study hard, work a 40 hour week, and that they are not entitled to be a rap star or a professional athlete...bear in mind I am talking about the extremely difficult or ignorant young people....not all of them...

[SentinelMind]

I agree Matt, but you should also look at the motives behind rap music before you make that judgment, it's easy to get angry at black youths for thinking the only career choices out there are rap and sports (that pisses me off too) but the truth is black youths are a huge target for exploitive businesses that only seek profit in someone's demise. You have these kids that are the victims of a nihilistic culture spawned 200 years ago when the first slave walked off the boat. My point is, that attitude about black youths is just a gestation of the slave mentality; (at some point it was illegal for us to read) if you get a chance to speak with alot of kids in inner-cities they will most likely laugh at you if you suggest to them to pursue a career in something other then rap or sports. This is what got me angry at Bill Cosby's comments regarding black parents. Yea I agree with Bill but I don't agree with his methods. There are too many of us pointing the blame instead of becoming the solution. I dunno, this is why Im working on my Master's in education. I just want to be part of the solution.

First, how is Bill Cosby not part of the solution, he's been touring the country talking about the importance of getting an education. Furthermore, someone has to say what Bill Cosby said.

[comicgirl]

Anyone remember that old Public Enemy song "911 is a Joke"? How about this.

911 operator in Tennessee, response re: African American woman's call for help:
911 Operator: 'I Don't Give a S***t'

http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=8319181

Now I dialed 911 a long time ago
Don't you see how late they're reactin'
They only come and they come when they wanna
So get the morgue embalm the goner
They don't care 'cause they stay paid anyway
911 is a joke

[SentinelMind]

Punisher #57 by Garth Ennis

James wasn't an angel and he wasn't a saint. I'm trying to be as honest as possible, but there are realities for a black man born into an American ghetto that most of your readers will not accept. I have to balance that with the truth. So if I say that James was brave, he was a quick thinker, he was easily bored, he was surrounded by temptation but had almost nothing in the wa of opportunity open to him - that will have to serve as background to what happened. He was convicted of selling narcotics and given a choice by the judge: prison or the draft.

I didn't even read this post initially, but now I have, and I understand this crap mentality. The writer here is trying to romanticize a drug dealer, pummeling the argument that he's a victim of his surroundings. Yes, there were lots of temptations around him and unfortunately he didn't ignore them. Maybe he didn't have good guidance and willpower to avoid these bad influences...but if you succumb to these influences, you are what you eat.

The scars left by chains and shackles last a long time, even after they come off. Black people began their time in this country so far below the lowest rung on the social ladder that - even if we had not suggered the discrimination that we have - it would take a race of supermen a thousand years of toil to make our position equal to that of white people. We are only human beings. So it is no surprise that there is still, and will be for years to come, thousandsw of dirt-poor black men susceptible to being sucked up by the U.S. military machine. The only thing that does surprise me is it took the bigoted fools who run this country until World War Two - not even seventy years ago - to accept that as cannon fodder, blacks are just as capable as whites.

And you need the drive to say, nope, that life is not for me, you need to have the fight in the belly, i'm not going to be military fodder, I'm going to stay in school and choose another path, screw everything else.

I've always been angry about James' death. Not the details of it, which base he was killed at or whether the defenses were properly organized, or any of it. He was as likely to die in one part of Vietnam as another. No, what makes me angry is the tought of a machine that feds people like James into wars in the first place.

The majority of the black population in this country is still bound up within its major cities. Still ghettoized. And we are deliberately kept that way; we are starved of resources, we are denied equality in education and employment, we have narcotics funneled into our neighborhoods to the point that our lives become, to all intents and purposes, criminalized. Even the punishments for crimes committed by black people are harsher than those meted out to whites. Our young people grow up knowing levels of poverty, or to deal drugs, what other choice do they have? Well, well, look who's waiting to welcome them with open arms: whether it was the draft back in the 60's and 70's or the recruiters today, just look who's waiting to snap them up.

Now, I see from the look on your face that you are having a hard time swallowing this, am I right?

I agree with some of what you're saying, some of it we could probably argue back and forth. But I think what even the most liberal-minded reader will take issue with is you connecting the dots like that, a consipracy theory wherein black people are kept wretched so that they can be recruited by the U..S. military...

Conspiracy theory? Okay, let's call it that. Generally, when people talk about these kinds of consipracies, what they say to reassure themselves is this: it couldn't happen, because someone would say something. Someone would either find out, or someone on the inside would have an attack of conscience, and it would all come out. But it seems to me that someone does always say something, just like I'm telling you the things I have - and it's simply a step too far for most people to believe them. So the idea is dismissed as crazy.

Look at the money spent on schools in the inner cities. Look at the levels of investment in jobs and infrascructure in those areas. Look at the disparity between the penalties for possessing cocaine, a drug used mostly by whites, and crack, used by blacks. Look at Detroit, or Bltimore, or Newark, or Oakland. Look out the window.[/quote]

All those cities are run by Democrats who have been promoting soft-on-crime, more government-public school funding, more Great Society welfare programs that have done nothing to clean up the streets, improve education, improve the infrastructure of those communities. It's this get-soft, make everyone feel like a victim, coddle everyone mentality that leads to lack of economic productivity.

[kainedamo]

lol, yes, "lacks willpower".

Nevertheless, many black people still live in poverty ridden ghettos.

I guess they all just lack willpower, huh?

You're a very naive man.

Once again you're making the issue too simple.

Is Garth Ennis trying to romanticize a drug dealer? You could argue that he is. Or maybe he's trying to represent a world that is a fact for many black people?

You're basically saying all it's about is "willpower". If you're born into a certain situation, it's not as simple as that - and the fact remains that many people are in ghettos. So you can cry about "willpower" like some idealistic naive child waiting for a fairy tale ending until the cows come home.

When are you going to talk about government accountability for the situation many black people are in?

[BlackLantern]

Neverhteless, many black people still live in poverty ridden ghettos.

so is someone supposed to come along and give them a nice house and good job??

[kainedamo]

so is someone supposed to come along and give them a nice house and good job??

I'm talking about government investment into schools and jobs for inner cities.

A good example of just how unmotivated the government seems to be to give it's own people a helping hand is New Orleans - years after the hurricane disaster and the place still looks like trash.

[BlackLantern]

I'm talking about government investment into schools and jobs for inner cities.

A good example of just how unmotivated the government seems to be to give it's own people a helping hand is New Orleans - years after the hurricane disaster and the place still looks like trash.

The government is simply waiting for the land to depreciate some more and for the banks to foreclose on the land in the 9th Ward and the other "undesirable" areas....snatch it all up and sell it to the highest bidder....Just my opinion though....

[SentinelMind]

lol, yes, "lacks willpower".

Nevertheless, many black people still live in poverty ridden ghettos.

I guess they all just lack willpower, huh?

You're a very naive man.

Once again you're making the issue too simple.

Is Garth Ennis trying to romanticize a drug dealer? You could argue that he is. Or maybe he's trying to represent a world that is a fact for many black people?

I'm glad we agree he's romanticizing a drug dealer. Making excuses for criminals is not going to solve problems within these communities. You have to take a tough stance and say we're not tolerating this criminal activity, otherwise, the criminals think you're joking around or aren't sincere, and will continue to prey on other victims. Making excuses for criminal activity is akin to tolerating it, and allowing it to continue.

I understand it is a world for many black people, and that is sad. You have to rid those communities of those influences, through various means. Making excuses for it won't improve those communities.

You're basically saying all it's about is "willpower". If you're born into a certain situation, it's not as simple as that - and the fact remains that many people are in ghettos. So you can cry about "willpower" like some idealistic naive child waiting for a fairy tale ending until the cows come home.

Many of these people who fall into these predicaments don't have strong family that contradict these temptations. That's the problem, they don't have a value system or discipline to avoid the temptations they see outside, nothing to come home and promote them on the right path.

When are you going to talk about government accountability for the situation many black people are in?

I firmly believe the situation for black communities will improve once we start improving education and allow them to strengthen the family unit and promote those values. Asking the government to provide more handouts, public housing projects, liberal-feel-good welfare programs will not improve the conditions of black Americans. No one can succeed relying on government to provide more bureacratic funding and programs. They don't work. They go against creating incentives to get out of those situations. They create a situation where living in those conditions become tolerable and doesn't create an incentive to get out. That's what you don't understand.

[SentinelMind]

I'm talking about government investment into schools and jobs for inner cities.

A good example of just how unmotivated the government seems to be to give it's own people a helping hand is New Orleans - years after the hurricane disaster and the place still looks like trash.

how much more government fudning for public schools and job training programs do you need?

You're of the mindset that throwing money at a problem solves every problem. It doesn't. If the people in charging of using that money aren't held accountable, they'll waste the money...its human nature. You think throwing more millions on top of the millions that have been thrown at these bureacracies for decades is all of a sudden going to produce the results you desire.

The No Child Left Behind Act has a budget of 13 billion dollars. At federal level, over several hundred billion is provided by federal government to public schools, on top of the budgets provided by state and local communities. We're talking billions of dollars. How much more money can be thrown an incompetent agencies that are not held accountable?

[BlackLantern]

NCLB is a joke anyway....but I agree with your point about accountablility

[kainedamo]

SentinelMind, I'm done talking with you'cause apparently any government investment into inner cities is "liberal-feel-good welfare"

I know for a fact Belfast would still be a ****hole if it weren't for the job investment pumped into the place over the last 10 years.

[Varient]

Nope, I'm correcting your false assumption initially wrote that I was white which you quickly tried to duck away from and cover yourself with this diatribe. Ok, you're Black, you have an opinion. I'm Black...I have an opinion....calling people Uncle Toms for having a different opinion than you is an example of the racist, divisive rhetoric you hypocritically claim to be against. I love myself, I love my family, I love my people I've been around, I want to improve my community but I'm not going to run away from pointing out problems in my community because it hurts the self-esteem of emotionally defensive people like yourself.


Sorry,.. I didn't "Duck away" from anything. You made a Racist statement quantifying Blacks as a group and made stupid statements that are all about the color and none of the reality,... Then you defend yourself by saying your black and infer that since you are black you can't be racist about yourself.

Tsk.

At that point I TELL YOU that color does not prevent you from being STUPID and give YOU the terms created for BLACKS who put all or "most" black people under the same label or stereotype LIKE YOU DID.

I notice you continue to dodge your absolute assumptions (Your "many" and "most" statements concerning rap.) , and have decided to "just not mention" your casual assumption that my family being whole must mean we were middle class - And therefore not a viable example of what I said.

I also note your silly behind has decided that your easy quantification of MOST of the Ills in the black community while I and OTHERS on this board say there is more to it than your simplistic assumptions, is supposed to mean you care more than we do.

SCARY.

If I and others were running away like you say,.. we wouldn't be having this conversation. If this were a matter of "self esteem" You wouldn't have pissed me off.
And "emotionally defensive"? Stop trying to insult because youve been stung and Outted.
Bottom line here is you've put Rap up as the cause of something that was there before Rap was. You have said in so many words that while whites are smart enough to take rap as entertainment BLACKS cannot and thats what young blacks aspire to be -

The fact that you can't see that this is what you are saying ABOUT AN ENTIRE PEOPLE - this underlines that you don't really have a clue.


?? WTf? :whatever: statistics are "white thing" now.

To be specific since you are showing we must explain it to you in simple terms:
I have seen Statistics on the national level twisted to put bad spin on blacks and good spin on whites.
Things like welfare, UW motherhood, All considered "black issues" based on spun stats in the last thirty years overturned and found to be out and out lies.
Stats so damning that the statistic charters had to dance hard to justify mess like spliting the white stats for unwed white mothers and welfare recipents between hispanic and nonhispanic white women.

On reading crime and crime related items Stats always emp the things blacks are high on while ignoring what the whites are high on - you'd think that it would be more of a concern for whites that they clear fifty percent on domestic violence, murder, poisonings and child abuse? Nope,... better to point the finger at how many more blacks go to jail than they do on the same type of drug with different penalties depending on user.

So having you cite "Statistics" to justify MUSIC as a contributing factor is something of the sort that I would call a "white thing."

Try harder next time.




I never said Blacks will become criminals or that most are criminals or that they are all bad. Jesus Christ :whatever:, you're on an emotional roller coaster. I do stand by my argument that I think gangster rap music has been instrumental in propagating a mentality that prevents blacks from succeeding, putting their best foot forward in competing against people of other races. I'm criticizing the music and the values it represents.


"White music listeners , mature ones, don't identify themselves by the lyrics in those type of music. They don't think Johnny Cash epitomizes who they are suppose to be,....he provides an escapist, fantasy entertainment....like watching an action movie.

Rap entertainment is viewed same way by suburban whites. Most rap musc listeners are white..........but by many in urban black youths as an identity, as a role model, or something to emulate. While whites have all these role models.....young blacks see gangster rap music as something to emulate......when that is your only source of inspiration and you don't have good parents to guide you...(out of marriage births for blacks skyrocketing)....that can be a serious problem."

Translation: Whites are mature and can listen to music w/o it influencing them, blacks cannot because the music is all they have.
"Only source of inspiration?"
MEH - And you still don't get why folk are even typing at you.
The music CAME AFTER all the primary causes of our current situation, and it IS NOT the key reason that we continue to have these problems.

That you see it as such is why your statements appear racist.




You're making too many quick assumptions. I never said racism is a thing
of the past.....I think solving problems in the black community cannot be solved quickly by screaming racism at others.....

The fact of the matter is people will always be racist...although to various degrees.....but the only way to move forward is work hard, engage with people around you, find out what you want, learn about the world,...and move forward. Screaming that the person you're competing against is unfair to you won't solve your problems. Life isn't fair...it will never be fair. You have to study your opponent, study the opportunities around you and go for it....whining that the "man" is going to stop will never lead to success.

Are you one of those "just hang in there and don't make waves - It'll get better" negroes?
Because the above was the kinda stuff both Martin and Malcolm had to deal with.
"Oh,.... don't complain,.. don't point out the obvious just try harder."

I'm thinking it's better to point out the problems and try for change - that's what got the civil rights movement going.

Pointing the finger at the black community while it's main problems come from the outside doesn't solve anything.





Who is us? :whatever: I like how you think you put yourself on some pedestal as if your are somehow more representative of Blacks than another Black person. I couldn't stand people like you, make yourselves speakers of all Black people. I've never done that once in this thread. You might be a smart guy but I think you're overally arrogant and have limited yourself to reading topics pertaining to black community.


Talk about arrogance,... you define and paint most black youth with a broad brush,..making them out as simple and putting the blame completly on them,... tell me that my assumed social strata means I can't have a viable experience and then wanna whine because you think I'm speaking for all black people?

Hypocrite.


Yeah, damn that Malcolm X, Thomas Sowell, Bill Cosby and other blacks who grew up in urban community and who have been critical of problems in the black community and have written lengthy reasarch and columns about them. They must all be "Uncle Toms" :whatever: because they disagree with you and offend your sensibilities.

woot.

Read more,... PLEASE.

(Jeez - I'm not even going to waste the page explaining what was wrong with that last paragraph.)

Methinks your feelings were hurt at it even being inferred that you could be an Uncle Tom. Sucks to be you that you can judge so quickly but want to be seen as an exception.

[Varient]

Funny, because when I read his post I didn't recall him ever calling you an Uncle Tom or other **** like that.

Nah.

I gave him the benifit of maybe mispeaking and he came back with more arrogance instead.

[Varient]

Both Black Separation Theology and White Supremacy promote and encourage racial segregation and preach hate of another race. The KKK used violence, yes - but I am focusing purely on the philosophical teachings of both. They are both similar in the fact that they try nothing but divide America by racial lines. I have just a much a problem with Obama going to a Black Separation church as I would if Senator Byrd ran for President with a history in the KKK.

I have to disagree with continuing to compare the two.

Black seperation theology was based on protection of the black community from the sort of stuff the KKK promotes.

While two wrongs don't make a right you can't really put these two in the same camp.

If you gave each group EXACTLY what it wanted in toto,... you'd have one group of isolationists, and a group with property to do as it likes.

V.

[Varient]

it's not invalid or marginalized...I was just speaking from my personal experience....

In the context of what we are speaking about,.. your declaration was like "I don't know what we are talking about,.. I'm black and never had these kinds of problems".


Meanwhile,... literally thousands of blacks have been thrown under the bus while you cruise thru unmolested.

[Varient]

Wrong....bureacrats have spent millions and millions of these Great Society programs that you cherish so much...and have yet shown to be an utter failure, by your own wiki-article. they don't work. more government bureacracies and feel-good programs don't work in solving these problems.

The main problem with money thrown at social programs is that the wrong people are doing the throwing and the wrong issues are being addressed.

Urban areas are in a perpetual state of catch up - they spend money buying current books and supplies that other schools got in the first place.

Until VERY recently Urban schools had to accept teachers by bottom dollar,.. as in they may hire an english teacher to teach math because they can't afford a math teacher, and the english teacher is willing to teach outside his specialty to continue eating.

Sigh.

So instead of correcting the imbalances,... people throw more money at it.

Then whine about how it doesn't work,............... DUH.

[Varient]

The white supremest groups have no credibility - they are harmless because people see them for what they are: arrogant, idiotic deplorable people.

Whats more dangerous is the people like Sharpton, Jackson and Wright who DO have credibility and who make their living on telling blacks they are being repressed by white Americans. This type of message prevents the black community from improving itself from within by having them play the victim card. As long as the black community continues to believe that the problems in their community is solely the fault of others - they will never be able to overcome the past.

Why do you call them harmless?

The scary thing for me here is you have no concern about groups that recruit everyday on a platform of hating difference - have radio broadcasts that advocate treating others differently for being different and compare this with blacks telling other blacks not to trust white folk.

I will say that you pull the teeth of a sharpton or a jackson by removing the things they can point at as PROOF that whites are repressing blacks.

To shrugg and say to people who have been singled out by them that they are "harmless?????

[BlackLantern]

In the context of what we are speaking about,.. your declaration was like "I don't know what we are talking about,.. I'm black and never had these kinds of problems".


Meanwhile,... literally thousands of blacks have been thrown under the bus while you cruise thru unmolested.

That is why I am saying its harder for me to relate to occurences like that....I'm not saying its right or wrong, just that I don't relate. You almost make it sound like I'm supposed to feel bad because I get a "free pass" or something.

[BlackLantern]

Why do you call them harmless?

The scary thing for me here is you have no concern about groups that recruit everyday on a platform of hating difference - have radio broadcasts that advocate treating others differently for being different and compare this with blacks telling other blacks not to trust white folk.

I will say that you pull the teeth of a sharpton or a jackson by removing the things they can point at as PROOF that whites are repressing blacks.

To shrugg and say to people who have been singled out by them that they are "harmless?????

I'm not saying that Sharpton or Jackson have not, at numerous occasions, pointed out injustice. But lately it seems they are doing so where there is no racial injustice to be had...Me personally, I'm still waiting for them to apologize for the whole Duke case....

[Varient]

That is why I am saying its harder for me to relate to occurences like that....I'm not saying its right or wrong, just that I don't relate. You almost make it sound like I'm supposed to feel bad because I get a "free pass" or something.

???
free pass?

No.

I guess the equiv could be if women speak on sexual harrassment unto rape,.... and a woman stands up in the discussion and states that she's only had one case where someone "could have" sexually harrassed her - and she admits she brought it on herself by sitting on his face,.... but she's never ever been raped?

What does that say to all the other women who say the issues are real?

V.

[Varient]

I'm not saying that Sharpton or Jackson have not, at numerous occasions, pointed out injustice. But lately it seems they are doing so where there is no racial injustice to be had...Me personally, I'm still waiting for them to apologize for the whole Duke case....

"Whoops"

[BlackLantern]

"Whoops"

It's a bit more than that....when the case first broke, Jackson was down there in a heartbear calling those athlete "barbarians" and all sorts of things, calling for resignations and all that....when it came out that the DNA evidence was not that of any of the accused players, but that the DNA found was from another member of the Duke athletic department, Jackson quickly vanished from the scene...

[Erzengel]

Sharpton more than Jackson are opportunists that will take any issue and run with it regardless of facts. They don't even seem to care about the families of the "victims" or the victims themselves as long as they can get their faces on the 6 O'Clock news. :down

And I don't know when's the last time either of them were prevalent.

[SentinelMind]

Sorry,.. I didn't "Duck away" from anything. You made a Racist statement quantifying Blacks as a group and made stupid statements that are all about the color and none of the reality,... Then you defend yourself by saying your black and infer that since you are black you can't be racist about yourself.


Sigh.....It's not all about color, I don't believe the color of your skin makes you predisposed to a culture or behaving a certain way, I never said that. I never said that once in this thread but of course, you know that, you're just making stuff as you go along, taking what I said out of context.


I notice you continue to dodge your absolute assumptions (Your "many" and "most" statements concerning rap.) , and have decided to "just not mention" your casual assumption that my family being whole must mean we were middle class - And therefore not a viable example of what I said.

I asked if you were two parent middle class because you were using anecdotal evidence in this argument. According to you, you're apparently of a two-parent lower-class family. There you go. That does not excuse the reality that a very significant large portion of Blacks are born out of wedlock, akin the links on the first and second page of this thread. You were giving anecdotal evidence to dismiss widely available statistics. You were trying to pass of a skewed sample of anecodotal evidence to describe the general population, that was what I was objecting to.

I also note your silly behind has decided that your easy quantification of MOST of the Ills in the black community while I and OTHERS on this board say there is more to it than your simplistic assumptions, is supposed to mean you care more than we do.


Sigh.... No, I never said I care more about issues pertaining to the Black community than you do. What I think the problem is, instead of debating me, trying to discuss issues seriously and thoroughly, you've decided to paint me as some sort of caricture and ascribing me loads of false statements and assertions based on stereotypes you've already made up in your mind. All I said is that I think BET/gangster rap music has a significant impact on the economic progress of Blacks. I never said gangster rap music and the counter culture it represents CAUSED the ills of the black community. I never said it caused slavery or Jim Crow (I can't believe I even have to say this) . I said the music and the counterculture values it repsents has been instrumental in slowing down progress of Black Americans to compete with people of other races, by encouraging earlier irresponsible sexual activity, violent aggressive behavior, hostile attitude towards establishment that would lead to professonal success, glorifying the lack of traditional family values. That's my opinion, boosted by statistics and studies. Is it responsible for everything.....no.....but I think its a significant topic to look at.

Methinks your feelings were hurt at it even being inferred that you could be an Uncle Tom. Sucks to be you that you can judge so quickly but want to be seen as an exception.

If someone even tries to skirt around and infer a racial slur based on opinion, I'll fight back. Tough. I'm sure you would.

[SentinelMind]

are you one of those "just hang in there and don't make waves - It'll get better" negroes?
Because the above was the kinda stuff both Martin and Malcolm had to deal with.
"Oh,.... don't complain,.. don't point out the obvious just try harder."

No, I'm one of those "let's put down the tissue paper", outwit my opponent, study harder than my opponent, beat my opponent at his own game at the rules that are set up, and then continue to move chess pieces for other. I'm not one of those negroes who is relying on white guilt to solve all the problems in the black community. It's naive to think that will ever suffice. To assume white are going to give you even more competitive advantages against their own interest based on your tears is naive, something Bill Cosby and even blacks like Malcolm X spoke length about.

[BlackLantern]

That is what I am doing....playing the game to get where I want to go....its worked out pretty well so far

[Varient]

Sigh.....It's not all about color, I don't believe the color of your skin makes you predisposed to a culture or behaving a certain way, I never said that. I never said that once in this thread but of course, you know that, you're just making stuff as you go along, taking what I said out of context.


You don't believe it,.. yet can say that black teens are predisposed to emulate negative rap than whites because of a lack of role models. There are NO STATS on the books that support this thoery of yours and you are saying that COLOR determines how you deal. I keep saying it and you keep sidestepping the fact that you said that white kids know better than black kids SIMPLY because they have more positive role models.
TSK.




I asked if you were two parent middle class because you were using anecdotal evidence in this argument. According to you, you're apparently of a two-parent lower-class family. There you go. That does not excuse the reality that a very significant large portion of Blacks are born out of wedlock, akin the links on the first and second page of this thread. You were giving anecdotal evidence to dismiss widely available statistics. You were trying to pass of a skewed sample of anecodotal evidence to describe the general population, that was what I was objecting to.

You asked and then dismissed what is experienced over what was gathered by someone who IN MOST CASES doesn't do a good job collecting the data.

Proof: Please explain how You have people braying about a 70% OOW rate in the black population, yet everywhere you dig deeper you never find these mounds and mounds of unwed mothers towing fatherless kids around?

How exacly do you come up with "70%"? Back when they started getting their pee-pees slapped it was found out that stat takers were being lazy and taking a small example and lumping the entire group by it. In this case all I have found was a 1993 study that USED 900 Girls in Michigan to determine the 70% OOW rate.

If people would dig a little deeper they would know that the age range for this "70%" that is stated is between 18 and 29 years of age. That the MAJORITY of black women in the study were CHOOSING to have children when they can with no viable husbands for various reasons which if I put it out here unvarnished would cause a gender flaming war.

Of course my point here is that your "widely available statistics" are skewed and inaccurate in the first place.


Sigh.... No, I never said I care more about issues pertaining to the Black community than you do. What I think the problem is, instead of debating me, trying to discuss issues seriously and thoroughly, you've decided to paint me as some sort of caricture and ascribing me loads of false statements and assertions based on stereotypes you've already made up in your mind.

Gee,.. I seem to recall that you said because you loved yourself and your family that you will say such inaccurate things instead of running away from such like I would,... (inaccurate is my word, you spoke an opinioned falsehood based on what I consider empirical evidence - enough people said it around you to get you to believe it's Rap that is a significant problem when the reality was that all that we are experiencing today was forseen 40 years before.)

All I said is that I think BET/gangster rap music has a significant impact on the economic progress of Blacks. I never said gangster rap music and the counter culture it represents CAUSED the ills of the black community. I never said it caused slavery or Jim Crow (I can't believe I even have to say this) . I said the music and the counterculture values it repsents has been instrumental in slowing down progress of Black Americans to compete with people of other races, by encouraging earlier irresponsible sexual activity, violent aggressive behavior, hostile attitude towards establishment that would lead to professonal success, glorifying the lack of traditional family values. That's my opinion, boosted by statistics and studies. Is it responsible for everything.....no.....but I think its a significant topic to look at.

My turn to sigh.
1. Over the top.
2. READ:
a. http://www.acton.org/commentary/commentary_169.php
(entire page)
b. http://karmak.org/archive/2002/10/portrait.html - including this :
"A majority of single-parent families, 64 percent, are white. But a higher proportion of black families are headed by single parents: two-thirds of black families, compared to 25 percent of white ones. (In 1970, the corresponding proportions were 36 percent for blacks and 10 percent for whites.) (Household and Family Characteristics, 1994).
The factors leading to single motherhood have changed. A decade ago, children were twice as likely to have lived with a divorced parent than a never-married one. Today, they are just as likely to live with a parent who never married.
In 1994, about 36 percent of single parents never married, 37 percent were divorced, and 23 percent were separated from spouses because of marital discord or other reason.
With whites, a greater proportion are the result of divorce; twice as many white single mothers are divorced as are married, with spouse absent, or never married. Those numbers are reversed with blacks, with about three times as many never married than divorced or married with a spouse absent (Marital Status 1994).
The rise in unwed motherhood is dramatic for all groups. From 1983 to 1993, out-of- wedlock births soared to70 percent and then leveled off. Today, one-third of births are to unmarried mothers.
A major rise in unwed motherhood has been among white women, whose rates have doubled since 1980. (Census Bureau)
Despite social outcries about the promiscuity of teens, the age group with the most growth in out-of-wedlock births since the 1970s are women in their 20s and older, who account for 70 percent of them. Through the 1990s, for teens, the birth rate fell; for women in their twenties, it stayed constant; and for women in their thirties, it rose slightly. "

In both (only two of MANY examples) the problems and the retardation of black social advancement were seen DECADES before Rap even appeared and the MAJORITY of the causes for our issues have LITTLE to do with whether our kids listen to rap or not.


If someone even tries to skirt around and infer a racial slur based on opinion, I'll fight back. Tough. I'm sure you would.

This is the internet.
If I want to name call I simply will. There is nothing to stop me from naming anyone based on my opinion, (Note my calling you a hypocrite in my previous post.), If I had wanted to call you A Tom I would have. The examples used was a response to your putting up the premise that your color would prevent you from being racist against your own kind.

TSK.


V.

[Varient]

No, I'm one of those "let's put down the tissue paper", outwit my opponent, study harder than my opponent, beat my opponent at his own game at the rules that are set up, and then continue to move chess pieces for other. I'm not one of those negroes who is relying on white guilt to solve all the problems in the black community. It's naive to think that will ever suffice. To assume white are going to give you even more competitive advantages against their own interest based on your tears is naive, something Bill Cosby and even blacks like Malcolm X spoke length about.

Is this what you consider no longer letting someone to continue to kick you? Stop crying and kick back with the same kind of shoes on?

No thanks. I'd rather hold them to the same standards they put on me and put on my combat boots if they wanna start trading kicks.

The ONLY way you will effect change is to hold the mirrior up so they can see what we are looking at. "Allowing" racist organizations to exist, "Ignoring" disparities in the justice system, Making it a requirement for ALL of us to be "BETTER" than what is required Didn't work up until the 60's.

At which time Both Malcolm and Martin helped us dig in and say there must be change.

There was change - but then a couple of things dragged us back down.

EVERY TRAILBREAKER / CEILING BREAKER in the black community tell the tale of having to work HARDER at the white mans game to get ahead.

Well over one hundred years of them doing such.

Now you preach the Same old same old as the way to get ahead.

IT DOESN"T WORK TO BEAT THEM AT THEIR OWN GAME. For every white you show that we are "plain folks" just like them,... you still have three or four from missouri who would rather fudge on the side of dicking us on GP for their own benifit.

MEH.

[Varient]

That is what I am doing....playing the game to get where I want to go....its worked out pretty well so far

No,...

You simply slipped thru the cracks.

No heat,... I gave it some thought:

Everywhere I had trouble they saw a blackman with a book in his hand doing things they couldn't accept w/o investigating.These places in most cases were small white communities or subsections of major cities where my job required my presence,.... but by nature of what I did you rarely saw blacks in any great number.

They were raised to believe that any blackman my size was all about trouble. They were raised that Big Black men are not Search and Rescue swimmers, Not Air Traffic Controllers, Not SAR controllers, Not Electronic Computer Hardware Technicians, Not Boarding Officers, not Navigators.

The Stereotype is that I won't be married, I will have kids, and of course I can't be trusted around your females because as per the stereotype,.. I will Rape a woman given half the chance.

They have it as "common knowledge" that if a crime is committed within ten miles of a black or the black community, The black was somehow involved. That if they want to protect what is theirs it is better to harrass me and my family to remind us that we better not do anything wrong.

I have NO idea what you did in the Navy, but based on your words you have no encountered what I have because you've never been stationed outside of a "Military town" like I had.

No heat,... Yours wasn't about playing their game and getting on,... but about not doing anything to draw attention.

Peace.

[Arkady Rossovich]

If you want to look at it in the more drastic sense. I hear that the number of minorities will increase greatly,and by 2050 whites will be the minority. But this may not happen..

[Varient]

If you want to look at it in the more drastic sense. I hear that the number of minorities will increase greatly,and by 2050 whites will be the minority. But this may not happen..

Well,...

We are due the end of the world in 2013,(Mayan Calender), An Asteroid is scheduled to hit the moon, or pass between the Earth and the moon or hit the Earth between 2025 and 2028 (I forget exactly), And depending who you talk to, we will either be killed by Heat death, (Global Warming) or Freezing, (IceAge.)

So you never know.

[BlackLantern]

No,...

You simply slipped thru the cracks.

No heat,... I gave it some thought:

Everywhere I had trouble they saw a blackman with a book in his hand doing things they couldn't accept w/o investigating.These places in most cases were small white communities or subsections of major cities where my job required my presence,.... but by nature of what I did you rarely saw blacks in any great number.

They were raised to believe that any blackman my size was all about trouble. They were raised that Big Black men are not Search and Rescue swimmers, Not Air Traffic Controllers, Not SAR controllers, Not Electronic Computer Hardware Technicians, Not Boarding Officers, not Navigators.

The Stereotype is that I won't be married, I will have kids, and of course I can't be trusted around your females because as per the stereotype,.. I will Rape a woman given half the chance.

They have it as "common knowledge" that if a crime is committed within ten miles of a black or the black community, The black was somehow involved. That if they want to protect what is theirs it is better to harrass me and my family to remind us that we better not do anything wrong.

I have NO idea what you did in the Navy, but based on your words you have no encountered what I have because you've never been stationed outside of a "Military town" like I had.

No heat,... Yours wasn't about playing their game and getting on,... but about not doing anything to draw attention.

Peace.

I was an Operations Specialist (OS) stationed in San Diego and Yokosuka, Japan....it was PACFLT, so I made it around most of Asia, Hawaii, and Guam. I grew up in CT and recently moved back to CT about 3 years ago for my new job...but the place I live in CT has a 2 percent black population within the county....I don't think I've "slipped through the cracks"....I busted my ass and got ahead....

[Arach Knight]

I do not want to drag myself so deep into this. But I will share my honest perspective. Too often we as Black people are led to believe that simple assimilation will erradicate most of our problems. I can tell you that listening to rock bands, wearing fitted pants, keeping your hair low and shaved (no dreads, braids, naturals etc) and avoiding Du-Rags will not end your woes. I once believed that if I yielded to the melting pot idea and took interest in the things that interested the dominant culture of this country (Caucasians) that nobody would harass me.

I remember defending rap in my youth (often I had heard "rap is crap without the c"). Explaining to people that Du-Rags were not a thug fashion but were rather a hair care product. Explaining the justification for slang terms and euphamisms that were common/popular among the Black community. I also remember fielding stereotypes about Kool-Aid, Penis Size, athleticism etc. After becoming weary, I temporarily gave in. I had always been fond of rock, but it was never my primary musical choice. By expressing my rock music interest more than my hip hop interest and influence, I hoped that I would be seen as more acceptable. Nothing could have been further from reality.

I had still been frequently harassed by police. I have had an entire truck of young white males throw eggs at me while calling me ******. And I was doing nothing more than riding home on my bicycle. If I am despised as a Black man and I am despised as a Black man who tries to conform to the expected social image of an upstanding American, then to what benefit am I afforded through my own social discomfort? I find it easier to be myself and to love that, than to pretend that the world will be kinder to me if I portend a protentious image.

I consider myself a progressive Black. I enjoy rock music and read comic books without any belief that I am harming my image as a Black man. At the same time I still love hip hop (even the likes of Crooked I, Ghost Face Killah and Rick Ross), I wear loose jeans and fairly large shirts. And I don't allow that to hinder my ability to function in this world as a law abiding and proud American. I attend Cal State San Bernardino California. I maintain a 3.3 cumulative GPA and a 3.7 quarterly GPA. I have never done drugs, been arrested or created any children out of wed lock. I respect my girlfriend and together she and I head up an on campus orginization that promotes awareness of the Black position in America, both internally (among Blacks) and externally (relations with other ethnic groups).

My advice to you all, is to love yourself without feeling shame for who and what you are. Being Black and loving rap will not condemn you to a life of criminal behavior. And to even entertain such a thought as a generalization, is equally as disdained. Love yourself, love your people and be aware that just because slavery and civil rights are in our past, that does not mean that we are still not struggling. Be aware of the Jena Six, Megan Williams, Aloysius Staton Jr., Sean Bell, Amidaou Diallo. Racism is real, being Black is okay. But at the end of the day, don't let that keep you from striving to interact with everyone else. We are all one people on this earth. And all problems, regardless of who holds the blame, are a two way interaction that must be viewed from all sides, if they are to be resolved.

[Varient]

I was an Operations Specialist (OS) stationed in San Diego and Yokosuka, Japan....it was PACFLT, so I made it around most of Asia, Hawaii, and Guam. I grew up in CT and recently moved back to CT about 3 years ago for my new job...but the place I live in CT has a 2 percent black population within the county....I don't think I've "slipped through the cracks"....I busted my ass and got ahead....

I think you missed the point.

I was a Radarman With specialties in more than one facet and as a Coastie didn't do more than "Park" within major bases/AOR in Pacific Fleet. Used your resources when in that part of the world, but the nature of what I did took me to places you never had to deal with.

I only retired @ E7 more because it became impossible to be a widower with two small children to continue my job. You sit here and read like I had issues you did not because I didn't "bust my azz and got ahead".

Do we really want to compare commendations, ribbons and awards since you can't imagine that what I've been saying is true? Can't help you and I'm not about to get into a pissing contest with someone who believes that all you need to avoid issues along racial lines is "hard work".
(If it were THAT SIMPLE I would've juggled Fatherhood, SARMIS, And become a Warrant Officer for the extra cash.)

(chuckle):word:

[Varient]

I do not want to drag myself so deep into this. But I will share my honest perspective. Too often we as Black people are led to believe that simple assimilation will erradicate most of our problems. I can tell you that listening to rock bands, wearing fitted pants, keeping your hair low and shaved (no dreads, braids, naturals etc) and avoiding Du-Rags will not end your woes. I once believed that if I yielded to the melting pot idea and took interest in the things that interested the dominant culture of this country (Caucasians) that nobody would harass me.

I remember defending rap in my youth (often I had heard "rap is crap without the c"). Explaining to people that Du-Rags were not a thug fashion but were rather a hair care product. Explaining the justification for slang terms and euphamisms that were common/popular among the Black community. I also remember fielding stereotypes about Kool-Aid, Penis Size, athleticism etc. After becoming weary, I temporarily gave in. I had always been fond of rock, but it was never my primary musical choice. By expressing my rock music interest more than my hip hop interest and influence, I hoped that I would be seen as more acceptable. Nothing could have been further from reality.

I had still been frequently harassed by police. I have had an entire truck of young white males throw eggs at me while calling me ******. And I was doing nothing more than riding home on my bicycle. If I am despised as a Black man and I am despised as a Black man who tries to conform to the expected social image of an upstanding American, then to what benefit am I afforded through my own social discomfort? I find it easier to be myself and to love that, than to pretend that the world will be kinder to me if I portend a protentious image.

I consider myself a progressive Black. I enjoy rock music and read comic books without any belief that I am harming my image as a Black man. At the same time I still love hip hop (even the likes of Crooked I, Ghost Face Killah and Rick Ross), I wear loose jeans and fairly large shirts. And I don't allow that to hinder my ability to function in this world as a law abiding and proud American. I attend Cal State San Bernardino California. I maintain a 3.3 cumulative GPA and a 3.7 quarterly GPA. I have never done drugs, been arrested or created any children out of wed lock. I respect my girlfriend and together she and I head up an on campus orginization that promotes awareness of the Black position in America, both internally (among Blacks) and externally (relations with other ethnic groups).

My advice to you all, is to love yourself without feeling shame for who and what you are. Being Black and loving rap will not condemn you to a life of criminal behavior. And to even entertain such a thought as a generalization, is equally as disdained. Love yourself, love your people and be aware that just because slavery and civil rights are in our past, that does not mean that we are still not struggling. Be aware of the Jena Six, Megan Williams, Aloysius Staton Jr., Sean Bell, Amidaou Diallo. Racism is real, being Black is okay. But at the end of the day, don't let that keep you from striving to interact with everyone else. We are all one people on this earth. And all problems, regardless of who holds the blame, are a two way interaction that must be viewed from all sides, if they are to be resolved.

Props.
It's very true that the party line remains that "we" should assimilate to get along and get ahead w/o racial issues - But for some strange reason the message doesn't trickle down enough on the white side and you are expected, (Like it has been since the late 1800's ) , to suck it up and tolerate the abuse, not make waves, and play / win by the rules laid down by someone else.

It is depressing to read, listen, and understand that we have as a people been reinventing the wheel over and over again to little effect. You are correct though that we must remain true to ourselves and what we want to continue to advance.

Peace.

[ObakeTora]

It doesn't matter how you come at them....They have been bombarded with images of athletic and hip-hop glory from a very young age....How do you think they are going to react when someone tells them they have to study hard, work a 40 hour week, and that they are not entitled to be a rap star or a professional athlete...bear in mind I am talking about the extremely difficult or ignorant young people....not all of them...



Then Id change the whole entire way education is delivered. I'd make it fun.

First, how is Bill Cosby not part of the solution, he's been touring the country talking about the importance of getting an education. Furthermore, someone has to say what Bill Cosby said.

ehh he had the right idea but still it's like shouting insults to a raging bull. Whats the point? He should work behind the scenes and work closely with what we our teaching our inner city kids.

[Joker]

This whole race thing is ridiculous. Once you flay a person alive, while listening to their screams for mercy, you see that on the inside we're all the same color, regardless of the color of our skin. And that color is a sort of dark red, with some yellows and purples mixed in, and the occaisional blue...

[ObakeTora]

race = mother nature's way to thin our numbers.

[Tag279]

I am a black man that lives in Mississippi. I lived on the west side of Chicago for almost 7-years I attended Reberto Clemente HS. My family moved from Chicago to my home town in Mississippi in the summer of 89.

A few weeks after school started in Mississippi I was showing some of the guys in gym class pictures from Chi-Town pics of the Sears Tower, John Hancock bldg, Shed Aquarium, Adler Planetarium, Reberto Clemente HS, among other pics.

Included in those pics were a picture of me and a young lady at a Valentines Day dance she was a very light-skinned Puerto Rican she looked white in the picture. One of my classmates became livis and screamed "You can't do that!" He was referring to the idea of a black man and a white woman. Every since that day he and I were at odds when initially we were not.

One day after school he and two other white guys were going to "set me strait" as he put it and that things like that race mixing will not be tolerated.

We got into a physical confrontation and I was able to subdue the three of them. You see my first year in Chicago I would get my butt kicked every other day so I learned how to defend myself.

I am sure a white poster on this forum will assert the same type of story in reverse.

My point is it seems that we look for the worst in people and I am here to tell you there is more in common between black people and white people in this country than things that make us different.

The statement above was not to discount the fact that there are some people that have serious aversions and negative perceptions about people that are a different color than they are.

To traverse the racial divide in this country we have to begin to focus on the things that make us the same not superficial differences. Whites and blacks want to be able to provide for their families, send their children to good schools, make a positive contribution, and grow old with someone they love.

The trouble is that there are people on both sides that don't want us to get along and want to continue to perpetuate negative stereotypes. Those people make the most noise and convince others that the bad things about the other group are true. When they are not.

[DBella]

Everytime I see a discussion on RACE, I feel the need to post this link:
http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm

Very interesting discussion and insights here and I've very much enjoyed being an 'audience' of this thread. One request I'd like to make though is to refrain from name-calling or putting others down because of disagreements. So far, I think this thread is going quite well.

Thank you.

[Varient]

This whole race thing is ridiculous. Once you flay a person alive, while listening to their screams for mercy, you see that on the inside we're all the same color, regardless of the color of our skin. And that color is a sort of dark red, with some yellows and purples mixed in, and the occaisional blue...

(chuckle)

[Arach Knight]

That PBS link propositions an interesting and often neglected perspective. Race is very much a construct of modern humans. Culture is perhaps the only valid indicator of difference among groups that conveys the difference of environments and how those effect social interactions. Otherwise, we are all of the same species (Homo Sapien Sapiens).

If one were to take the historical perspective, you would need only turn to Rome or Egypt, to see how little race actually means. In the days of the Roman empire, if you were defeated by the armies of Rome, you were left with two choices. Absolute destruction was your first choice. For those who would rather live to fight another day, you could join with the Roman empire. You were allowed to maintain your culture and ruler, but when Rome went to war with an enemy, that meant you also went to war for the cause of Rome.

In ancient Egypt there are various forms of art that have shown that to Egyptians, the only divide were cultural ones (the gods you worshipped, the way you carried out certain practices, the language you spoke etc). They did not subscribe to the thought that skin tone made you different. This is why Egyptian pharoes were dark like Ethiopians or moderately toned like those from what we now call the Middle East.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d5/Four-'species'-of--Egypt.jpg/250px-Four-'species'-of--Egypt.jpg

Race is an aberration that continues to haunt mankind since the inception of the concept. Though a maligned thought, we must all learn to adapt to the world at hand, from a racial perspective since we are often viewed this way by those around us. But if we are properly armed with knowledge and perspective, there is hope yet for the future.

[Varient]

ehh he had the right idea but still it's like shouting insults to a raging bull. Whats the point? He should work behind the scenes and work closely with what we our teaching our inner city kids.
*comment*
Before Bill Starting talking bluntly,... he'd already been contributing to education and child lunch programs, He has supported others who took strides INTO the black community - when the first major noise about what he was saying hit,... he had been in the process of raising money for inner city kids in Philadelphia.

So he's been behind the scenes, and his blow up was more in frustration of not getting as far as he would like.

I stay away from this part of the debate because it's always between people not in the mix who agree with Cosby,.. and people up to their hips in the mess who wish he coulda said it a better way.

Unfortunate that Cosby gave those who prefer to blame the victim a leg up.

V.

[The Senator]

You know, I don't want to be provocative, but I do have a concern which I can't really figure out on my own.

If Obama becomes president, will he continue to be viewed favorably in the eyes of some African Americans? I hear a lot about how many African Americans are willing to vote for him because he represents their values, and I've heard others say that they are willing to vote for him simply because he's an African American.

But what if he continues to "play the game?" What if he doesn't bring those values, per say, into the White House? Do you think many African Americans who voted for him will turn against him? Do you think he might be a major disappointment?

Because even if Obama becomes President, the prejudices which exist in some parts of the country won't be eradicated. They won't disappear overnight, nor will many of them disappear in his first term and beyond. The judges who sentence African Americans to harsh punishments based on race will still be there, the politicians who have racist views will still be the oppressors, the police officers who randomly stop and search African Americans on the highway will still be on the patrol... sometimes I get the feeling that many folks are putting too much stock into electing an African American president, based on racial pretenses alone. Could a major disappointment be looming in the black community if Obama becomes president?

[Erzengel]

I've heard from a few people, black people included that the reason why they took exception to the stuff that Cosby said was because they didn't like someone within their ranks shining a light on their "issues".

[BlackLantern]

I've heard from a few people, black people included that the reason why they took exception to the stuff that Cosby said was because they didn't like someone within their ranks shining a light on their "issues".

I don't think any group of people, be it an organization or race or whatever, enjoy being told they are ****ing things up....

I agree with Cosby 100 percent though

[Tag279]

First off, Cosby was not wrong as a black person I can see that. While his statements were not pulling any punches they come out of genuine concern not contempt.

Secondly the overwhelming majority of black folks know that Obama becoming is not going to change the racial hatred carried by some Americans. (We aren't that daft BTW.)

What Obama's canadacy offers is hope that we have, as a nation, moved closer to narrowing the racial divide. And it reinforces the primary premise this nation was founded on;"All men[and women] are created equal."
when the Civil Rights Act of 1965 was passed. Black mothers and fathers told their children "You can be whatever you want now you can even be President of these United States."

43-years ago, and in somecases less, an African American today is three weeks away from vieing for the Presidency of this nation...

It's about hope, not race.

[Varient]

Sticking point:

My point is it seems that we look for the worst in people and I am here to tell you there is more in common between black people and white people in this country than things that make us different.

The statement above was not to discount the fact that there are some people that have serious aversions and negative perceptions about people that are a different color than they are.

To traverse the racial divide in this country we have to begin to focus on the things that make us the same not superficial differences. Whites and blacks want to be able to provide for their families, send their children to good schools, make a positive contribution, and grow old with someone they love.

The trouble is that there are people on both sides that don't want us to get along and want to continue to perpetuate negative stereotypes. Those people make the most noise and convince others that the bad things about the other group are true. When they are not.


All true.
Sadly.

While I was in Seaside Oregon,... I used to listen to white people who considered me "safe" tell me what they wanted in life like it was different from what I wanted. At first I was irritated because I was told in the tone that I didn't know what being married with children could be like.

Oh,... "Safe" means that they would let me know I was OKAY by telling me "I was the one from the Coast Guard Base."

There are too many people who's only viewpoint of folk who are different from them are lost episodes of TJ Hooker, Starsky and Hutch, the A -Team,.. And Spencer for Hire.
(And I'm being nice.)

The hardest thing for me is not showing irritation when some white person shows surprise when I:
1. Speak english, not "ghetto".
2. Turn down certain "ethnic" foods - example: I can't keep down watermelon.
3. Show up at my childs school for a parent / teacher conf, or I show an interest in my children as far as what they are learning in class.
4. Was happily Married.
5. Didn't try recreational drugs "even a little bit?"
6. Never served serious Jail time.
7. Got upset when some white guy thought it would be funny at a party to "feed my kid a beer?"
(The last - we packed up and left and it had to be explained to them using their own kids as examples to get them to understand??? - THEN we got an apology - WHERE's your head at it it's okay to feed a black child beer, but it's wrong to feed a white child beer?)

I've always wanted to "get along",................ but being told who you are by others gets old after the 50-11th time.

V.

[Erzengel]

The only racism my girlfriend every received was when her guidance counselor thought she should be in an "ethnic" after school club because she was part Black. Of course the Black girls in that club, ostracized her for not being "black enough" because she wore her hair in a bun, wore conservative attire and pearl earings and what not. That's the only time she's been treated differently by anyone.

[Varient]

You know, I don't want to be provocative, but I do have a concern which I can't really figure out on my own.

If Obama becomes president, will he continue to be viewed favorably in the eyes of some African Americans? I hear a lot about how many African Americans are willing to vote for him because he represents their values, and I've heard others say that they are willing to vote for him simply because he's an African American.

But what if he continues to "play the game?" What if he doesn't bring those values, per say, into the White House? Do you think many African Americans who voted for him will turn against him? Do you think he might be a major disappointment?

Because even if Obama becomes President, the prejudices which exist in some parts of the country won't be eradicated. They won't disappear overnight, nor will many of them disappear in his first term and beyond. The judges who sentence African Americans to harsh punishments based on race will still be there, the politicians who have racist views will still be the oppressors, the police officers who randomly stop and search African Americans on the highway will still be on the patrol... sometimes I get the feeling that many folks are putting too much stock into electing an African American president, based on racial pretenses alone. Could a major disappointment be looming in the black community if Obama becomes president?

Give Black people more credit please. No one who I've talked to who was Pro - Obama and black believes some sort of overnight change in this country. What they see this as (IMHO), is a Begining.

Peace.

[The Senator]

Give Black people more credit please. No one who I've talked to who was Pro - Obama and black believes some sort of overnight change in this country. What they see this as (IMHO), is a Begining.

Peace.

I wasn't not giving black people credit.

It's a concern I heard from a black friend of mine. A concern I found very insightful, if controversial.

It's a concern I wanted addressed.

[Arach Knight]

There are a myriad of often ignored factors when it comes to Barack Obama

1)His father is pure African (directly from the continent). His mother is Caucasian. From a historical perspective, Obama is not tied to the oppressed side of slavery. His father not being a slave descendent and his mother at worse being a descendent of a slave owner, puts Obama in a different position than former African American candiates who are the descendents of slavery. For African American descendents of slaves, the idea of an African American president is an endearing thought because it represents a shift in Americas social paradigm. It signifys an opportunity for racial change. But Obama is not directly a part of that resolve since he is not of any slave descent.

2) I am aware that many White people fear that the block voting power of African Americans (unlike Whites who are fairly divided as republicans and democrats, the large majority of African Americans vote democrat only) will lead to Obama winning because of his ethnicity rather than his capability as an effective political leader. What many people realize is that African Americans are only 10% of the population of this nation. Of the 30 or so million of us in this country, over 2 million of us are in prison and thus can not vote. Of those able to vote, less than half (which is a characteristic of all voters in this nation across ethnic groups) actually do vote. What that correaltes to, is the fact that we as African Americans do not have the effective power to lead Obama toward success. All of his gains in political momentum have in effect come from the dominant voting majority, or White people.

3)What this all means, is that people have a very skewed and uninformed perspective/opinion on this entire matter. Barack Obama securing a victory will show us that the nation has become slightly more secure with a non-white president, but only a fool would think that it will end prejudice in this country. In order to understand racism, one would have to delve into a greater body of study. The government side of racism is called institutional racism. These are things such as national laws that exclude or inhibit others due to their ethnic affiliation. e.g. segregation, job discrimination, housing discrimination.

That sort of racism is virtually non-existent. What we deal with in modern times is called individual racism. These are things such as hate crimes and hate groups. e.g. the Jena Six, Megan Williams (West Virginia Six), Sean Bell. These are small factions or individuals that carry out direct person to person racism that is not supported by law. Having an African American president will not and can not resolve such issues. Barack Obama can not tell Storm Front (white power web site) to shut down. Barack Obama can not tell Prussion Blue that they can't release new albums (hate band in the genre of folk rock). Every time the police are involved in a racially motivated shooting (murder) they are acknowledged as having broken protocol, so even then, laws can not be adjusted for that, because those men (or women) are already in violation of the laws in place.

If people are expecting Barack Obama to end racism, they are fools. If they think any Black political leader can end racism, they have aimed their goals and expectations in the wrong direction. Racism will end, when individuals learn to function together in society, rather than trying to raise their position by standing upon the backs of others. It is up to people such as ourselves to combat racism and prejudice. If Obama wins, the best thing he can do, is be the best president he can be. He will have to prove that the Black mind, the Black collective...that Black people are capable, positive, progressive and intelligent. He can be one less stereotype. That is all he can do to contribute to ending prejudice. Nothing more, nothing less.

[The Senator]

2) I am aware that many White people fear that the block voting power of African Americans (unlike Whites who are fairly divided as republicans and democrats, the large majority of African Americans vote democrat only) will lead to Obama winning because of his ethnicity rather than his capability as an effective political leader. What many people realize is that African Americans are only 10% of the population of this nation. Of the 30 or so million of us in this country, over 2 million of us are in prison and thus can not vote. Of those able to vote, less than half (which is a characteristic of all voters in this nation across ethnic groups) actually do vote. What that correaltes to, is the fact that we as African Americans do not have the effective power to lead Obama toward success. All of his gains in political momentum have in effect come from the dominant voting majority, or White people

Nationally, African Americans will not be able to lead Obama to success.

In individual states, such as North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, Michigan and Maryland, the African American vote has the potential to decide the outcome of the election in those states.

Granted, Mississippi can probably be removed from that list-- but there was a special election in a fairly black Congressional district two weeks ago, and the black voter turnout was significant. It helped a Democrat win in a district which went for George W. Bush by a 2-1 margin in 2004.

If enough African Americans turn out to vote in the fall, Obama could win several states Democrats simply don't win. And those chances can increase depending on a number of factors, most likely who Obama or McCain selects as their running mates. White voters will have to turn out as well, but if there's 50% black turnout or more in many of these states, Obama may have a solid chance.

[Varient]

I wasn't not giving black people credit.

It's a concern I heard from a black friend of mine. A concern I found very insightful, if controversial.

It's a concern I wanted addressed.

No heat.


I'm just saying that most of the greyheads all around me agree that his becoming president is a STEP in the right direction as far as this country was concerned, and as a step,... nothing more was expected from him other than to "come correct".

Come correct = Do his best to do something the right way.

(Did my answer appear hostile?)

[The Senator]

No heat.


I'm just saying that most of the greyheads all around me agree that his becoming president is a STEP in the right direction as far as this country was concerned, and as a step,... nothing more was expected from him other than to "come correct".

Come correct = Do his best to do something the right way.

(Did my answer appear hostile?)

Nope :up:

[Arach Knight]

Nationally, African Americans will not be able to lead Obama to success.

In individual states, such as North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, Michigan and Maryland, the African American vote has the potential to decide the outcome of the election in those states.

Granted, Mississippi can probably be removed from that list-- but there was a special election in a fairly black Congressional district two weeks ago, and the black voter turnout was significant. It helped a Democrat win in a district which went for George W. Bush by a 2-1 margin in 2004.

If enough African Americans turn out to vote in the fall, Obama could win several states Democrats simply don't win. And those chances can increase depending on a number of factors, most likely who Obama or McCain selects as their running mates. White voters will have to turn out as well, but if there's 50% black turnout or more in many of these states, Obama may have a solid chance.

Oh don't get me wrong. We as Black voters have a lot of political sway, which is why democrats are forever doing their best to make it seem as though their agendas appeal to our needs, culture and perspectives. What I am saying is that this time around, we just don't have the ability to carry the candiate. In the past, when political races were close (Again remember that I said the dominant population of whites are fairly even in voting behavior between democrats and republicans) our block voting was usually the tie breaker. This time however, the divide has really driven people in different directions. You have people who normally don't vote, that are now voting, just to prevent Barack Obama from actually winning. You have people saying they are democrats, but they will vote republican if Obama wins the most primaries.
/v/c-q4MDQ0cDI&hl=en


We as Blacks also don't have the physical numbers to outmatch other ethnic groups this time around. Case in point, California. Obama did not win that state, despite an over whelming showing of Black voters. Of all the non-southern states, California perhaps has the second largest Black population behind New York. The fact that Obama is winning primaries in states with White populations as high as 95%, shows you that White people are the determining factor this time around. Not the Black block vote.

[Tag279]

Something I wan't to point out is the fact that most of the black people that have expressed that they have or will vote for Barack Obama is not that he is regarded as black. It has to do with his message of hope and working together to correct problems.

We realize that Obama's Presidency would not erase racial intolerance. But what an Obama Presidency would do is offer verification that we have moved forward and have the ability to move further to narrowing our racial divide.

When the Civil Rights Act of 1965 was passed Black parents told their children "you can be whatever you want in life even President of these United States."

This is a dream that has true potential to be realized.

[justinlancaster]

^I believe in personal responsibility and that only way to succeed in this world is through hard work and discipline. I don't believe people can suceed if they always paint themselves as a victim of society ..etc.. Yes, there was a point where people were prevented from succeeding by government barriers, .....but once you remove those barriers, you're put in a position where you have to steer your own ship.

Studies have shown that people who play lots of violent video games are more likely to engage in violent behavior than those who don't. I'm not suggesting we ban rap music or violent video games. I don't believe in censorship. I understand the cost-benefit analysis that the entertainment value of rap music/video games is higher than the impact those influences may have on society. But I do believe you are what you eat. If you surround yourself by bad influences and make bad decisions, tough luck. Lot of these people who are suffering didn't have good influences and made bad decisions that put them in tight tough spot. That's what life is about. Personal responsibility...make the right decisions that lead to a good life. Be responsible. be focused, ignore the distractions and temptation.


Just because people have been blaming one's cultural values on their predicament doesn't mean that they are wrong.

-It sounds like you guys are having a very thought provoking debate and I don't want to disrupt it but I had to point out this particular post and give kudos to SentinelMind. Excellent point, not just for the American Black individual but also for every individual American.

[Arach Knight]

While I agree that personal responsibility is a factor (as pointed out by Bill Cosby) it would do no justice to pretend that historical factors have weighed down the African American people. If you take a person and remove all of their rights and then remove the rights of their children, how far can they succeed? Now imagine that the children of your childrens children are finally free, but they have no access to good jobs and are forced to live in the ghettos, backwoods and slums. Then imagine that historically, none of their ancestors had an education. How far do you expect them to go?

Now imagine that finally you are granted the right to education and some what better employment, but imagine that every law still makes you a second class citizen. Sure you can go to school, but your text books will not be up to date and are thus only providing your children with a limited education compared to the rest of the populous. Now imagine that takes you to 1964. That is only 48 years ago. That means you have a new generation of children and their children (my parents and myself) who have to some how achieve the same position as everyone else, but with an incredibly late start.

In my mind, it isn't about personal responsibility. Hard work gets you far when the playing field is balanced. But when you have been hindered for four centuries, compared to less than five decades of unbalanced freedom, you can't expect hard work alone to work. The problems of African Americans are not solely their problems. They can not only be blamed on White history (though a larger majority can) but they can also not be entirely blamed on African Americans. There is a shared responsibility based on the historical context that brings us here today. Not just a personal responsibility.

[BlackLantern]

^^^^your argument only partially stands up....plenty of African-Americans have acheived success in many different fields, and a majority of them came from humble backgrounds....

[kainedamo]

Garth Ennis wrote that if black people were supermen it would still take them years of hard work to get to the same level as white people.

[Arach Knight]

No. This time i'll be blunt. I emphatically believe in my point. What you have done is made an erroneous assumption that the few represent the many. The worlds ideals (note I said ideals, not realities) are not based upon the few. They are based upon the stability of the many, with exception to the few. This is why you have innocent people in prison and why some people get away with WIC and Welfare. Because systems are established for the many.

There were slaves who bought their freedom and became wealthy, during slavery. But their success is in no way a representation of the state of an entire body of people. My argument (or my point rather) is not about dismissing the notion of personal responsibility. Rather, I state that personal responsibility is only a fraction of what is necessary. There must be a group responsibility that says "Yes our people oppressed your people and because of centuries of oppression that continued until the last half of the 20th century, your people are struggling to gain equal social footing." At the same time group responsibility says "Yes our people have been historically disadvantaged but now we finally have the opportunities that our ancestors fought and died for. So now we can begin to move foward as we always wanted to." But there is no way for one to happen without the other.

If you want to see how unequal things are even now, then please look up The Jena Six then look up Aloysius Staton Jr. The Jena Six were locked away for assualting a Caucasian class mate, after he called them ******s (this was after the six students were assaulted at a party the week before, as well as threatened at gunpoint the week prior to that). The six young gentlemen all faced up to 25 years in prison (though one of them got off so far). The inverse of that situation is our dear mister Aloysius Staton Jr. He was assaulted by six young white males at a McDonalds, because he was dating a white woman (Aloysius is obviously African American).

Unlike the Jena Six however, the six young white men faced no charges at all. In fact, it was Aloysius who was locked up for defending himself with a glass bottle found in the resturant. Don't sit here and tell me that hard work alone will do it. Slaves worked hard till they literally died. And all of that hard work only benefited their masters. Never themselves. There must be as much recognition from the dominant and controlling population (White people) that hard work should be rewarded, as there must be williingness to work hard from the minority population (in this case, Black people).

[BlackLantern]

Garth Ennis wrote that if black people were supermen it would still take them years of hard work to get to the same level as white people.

I love Garths' work....but he's a pasty white writer....I really don't care to know what he thinks about race...just keep writing "The Boys" and drinking....

[BlackLantern]

No. This time i'll be blunt. I emphatically believe in my point. What you have done is made an erroneous assumption that the few represent the many. The worlds ideals (note I said ideals, not realities) are not based upon the few. They are based upon the stability of the many, with exception to the few. This is why you have innocent people in prison and why some people get away with WIC and Welfare. Because systems are established for the many.

There were slaves who bought their freedom and became wealthy, during slavery. But their success is in no way a representation of the state of an entire body of people. My argument (or my point rather) is not about dismissing the notion of personal responsibility. Rather, I state that personal responsibility is only a fraction of what is necessary. There must be a group responsibility that says "Yes our people oppressed your people and because of centuries of oppression that continued until the last half of the 20th century, your people are struggling to gain equal social footing." At the same time group responsibility says "Yes our people have been historically disadvantaged but now we finally have the opportunities that our ancestors fought and died for. So now we can begin to move foward as we always wanted to." But there is no way for one to happen without the other.

If you want to see how unequal things are even now, then please look up The Jena Six then look up Aloysius Staton Jr. The Jena Six were locked away for assualting a Caucasian class mate, after he called them ******s (this was after the six students were assaulted at a party the week before, as well as threatened at gunpoint the week prior to that). The six young gentlemen all faced up to 25 years in prison (though one of them got off so far). The inverse of that situation is our dear mister Aloysius Staton Jr. He was assaulted by six young white males at a McDonalds, because he was dating a white woman (Aloysius is obviously African American).

Unlike the Jena Six however, the six young white men faced no charges at all. In fact, it was Aloysius who was locked up for defending himself with a glass bottle found in the resturant. Don't sit here and tell me that hard work alone will do it. Slaves worked hard till they literally died. And all of that hard work only benefited their masters. Never themselves. There must be as much recognition from the dominant and controlling population (White people) that hard work should be rewarded, as there must be williingness to work hard from the minority population (in this case, Black people).

My whole point was that it is a bit difficult for me to relate because I have managed to do well for myself in "the white mans' world"....

[kainedamo]

I love Garths' work....but he's a pasty white writer....I really don't care to know what he thinks about race...just keep writing "The Boys" and drinking....

The guy rules. He has a point.

When ****loads of black people are still in ghettos and their parents were in the same situation, how far can a lot of these people really go? You can talk about personal responsibility all day long but the situation is what it is.

[Arach Knight]

My whole point was that it is a bit difficult for me to relate because I have managed to do well for myself in "the white mans' world"....

Nobody said you had to relate. That's good for you that you some how found a way out and you don't (seem to) get bothered by people over racial tensions. Your situation does not exist in a vacuum though, sir. People can't just up and decide "wow I'm going to go to university and get a high paying job and life will be smooth sailing." Some people are born into single parent homes with low incomes. Their academic potential is ruined by low social standings, gentrification and racism. Some people fight hard and rise above such things. But those are the exception not the standard.

In order to understand this world you must look at all sides of all things. You can not be so blind and foolish (I don't mean that offensively, just honestly) and assume that your circumstance or your perspective is the only valid one and that all other people just aren't trying hard enough. Did you even watch the video I posted earlier in the thread? You have White people who admit that they won't vote for Obama because he is Black. Not because he doesn't meet their political agendas...not because he isn't experinced enough. Because he is Black. One woman even accuses him of not being American. She says "America should be run by Americans." Which shows that she is so ignorant that she doesn't even know that by law, only Americans (born not naturalized) can run for President. She then accuses him of being Muslim even though he is baptized as Christian. One woman said she wanted to vote for Hilary and not Obama because Hilary probably knows the Star Spangled Banner in its entirety.

How can I tell a young Black child that if they try hard enough they can make it to be president, when there are people who on the news, will tell you to your face that they won't give a Black person that kind of opportunity. Open your eyes. Your success does not mean everyone elses success no more than your failures mean everyone elses failures. Perhaps now you can see why I said it isn't about personal responsibilty only. It is about group responsibility, which means that all sides must take personal responsbility.

[Goddessreicho]

Has any one ever heard of Ramona Moore (http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0819,missing-in-action,433849,1.html/1)? Read all eight pages of that, or better yet, read about how her mother finally got some kind of justice by taking the NYPD for court over their racial priority list of missing victims, which ALL know is very true.

Every time someone makes the national news for being missing its a young white attractive female. Hell, even local channels still have unfair reporting when it comes to missing people. It's really sad when this becomes the norm and is made fun of on The Family Guy and is a plot point on Without a Trace.

Very rarely is it men
Even more rare for a missing minority...and yet what are the statistics for a female minority to turn up missing!!! (not runaway, missing or dead) Minority women are 11 times more likely to go missing, and yet no one seems to care, or work on it.

CNN and MSNBC both lightly slapped themselves on their wrists when advocates bring up the disparity in the news, and look at all the changes. Or right, there wasn't any.

Until this county values all of its citizens, instead of just pretending to (ESPECIALLY LAW ENFORCEMENT), race relations will continue to deteriorate.

By the way, this is from WOAD (http://whataboutourdaughters.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-05-11T06%3A25%3A00-07%3A00) (a good website for the things that get skipped over in the news)

Now what you have to understand is months earlier another woman went missing, a White woman and this was the NYPD's response:
The day after Aronov vanished, police launched a massive search for her and the cocker spaniel, Bim, she had taken for a walk. The NYPD called a press conference, assigned two dozen detectives to the case full-time, and went door to door, passing out flyers with pictures of Aronov and Bim on them. The cops traced the Aronovs' phone and bank records and analyzed surveillance tape gathered from stores and apartment buildings near her home. A police van emblazoned with the department's 800 tip-line number drove around her neighborhood, blaring details of her disappearance over a loudspeaker. A letter was sent to rare-books dealers, a business the Aronovs dabbled in. Detectives reportedly even consulted a psychic. Village Voice (http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0819,missing-in-action,433849,1.html/2)

[Superhobo]

In the last couple of pages, from both Varient's and SM's posts, I just got this feeling that they felt that the type of lifestyle they're talking about was some "exclusively black" thing.

It's not.

In those types of areas, that type of thing pulls in everyone, regardless of the amount of melanin in your skin - and, funnily enough, you'd be surprised how many times the type of things you're both describing have happened to myself and my immediate group of friends, were they black, white or whatever.

I've had police come up to me, generally because of no prior incident and usually when I'd been sitting down on a stoop or some stars, and screw with me - I've been insulted to my face, asked to 'assume the position' or whatever on the hood of a police car numerous times. To say that this only happens to one race or the other is incredibly naive -

- as is blaming rap music for it all. The latter, though, is on another level COMPLETELY. That's just brain liquefying.

Am I saying that no real prejudice exists? No. Don't misunderstand me. Of course it does.

[Tag279]

BL, I am happy that you have not been cut by the blades of racism, intolerance, and opression. For a lot of black folks, including myself, your state of affars is a distant dream.

I have been exposed to numerous blades. But I managed to earn -3 degrees and become the first black Fire Inspector/ Investigator in my city's history.

Not everyone is able to overcome institutional obstacles placed in their way due to their color. The playing field is not leverl in every aspect of society for minorities in this country. Things have gotten better, this is true, but I assure you institutionalized racism and subtle oppression is still present.

[BlackLantern]

BL, I am happy that you have not been cut by the blades of racism, intolerance, and opression. For a lot of black folks, including myself, your state of affars is a distant dream.

I have been exposed to numerous blades. But I managed to earn -3 degrees and become the first black Fire Inspector/ Investigator in my city's history.

Not everyone is able to overcome intitutional obstacles placed in their way. The playing field is not leverl in every aspect of society for minorities in this country. Things have gotten better, this is true, but I assure you institutionalized racism and subtle oppression is still present.

I know its there, but like I said...it's a bit harder for me to relate to it than those who have....

[Tag279]

In the last couple of pages, from both Varient's and SM's posts, I just got this feeling that they felt that the type of lifestyle they're talking about was some "exclusively black" thing.

It's not.

In those types of areas, that type of thing pulls in everyone, regardless of the amount of melanin in your skin - and, funnily enough, you'd be surprised how many times the type of things you're both describing have happened to myself and my immediate group of friends, were they black, white or whatever.

I've had police come up to me, generally because of no prior incident and usually when I'd been sitting down on a stoop or some stars, and screw with me - I've been insulted to my face, asked to 'assume the position' or whatever on the hood of a police car numerous times. To say that this only happens to one race or the other is incredibly naive -

- as is blaming rap music for it all. The latter, though, is on another level COMPLETELY. That's just brain liquefying.

Am I saying that no real prejudice exists? No. Don't misunderstand me. Of course it does.

SH you I agree that such things happen to people of all races. But I assure you blacks and hispanics get the shorter end of the stick more predominantly in more places in this country.

[Superhobo]

SH you I agree that such things happen to people of all races. But I assure you blacks and hispanics get the shorter end of the stick more predominantly in more places in this country.

True enough. Sigh.

[Tag279]

Like I said earlier things have gotten better but we still have a long way to go.

I do not believe the government owes me anything but a fair chance to suceed if I am willing to work for it.

I have to do my dead level best at what ever I endeavor and impart that to my children.

The only way we can change this nation for the better is to teach our children a better way and that disliking someone or fearing someone because their skin is different is falicious.

We have more things in common than things that make us different. :word:

[Superhobo]

Like I said earlier things have gotten better but we still have a long way to go.

I do not believe the government owes me anything but a fair chance to suceed if I am willing to work for it.

I have to do my dead level best at what ever I endeavor and impart that to my children.

The only way we can change this nation for the better is to teach our children a better way and that disliking someone or fearing someone because their skin is different is falicious.

We have more things in common than things that make us different. :word:

We have a common enemy -

http://crosshatch.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/noid2.gif

:o

[Varient]

^^^^your argument only partially stands up....plenty of African-Americans have acheived success in many different fields, and a majority of them came from humble backgrounds....

Shaking my head @ "plenty".

U show your stats and I'll show mine.

You'll also have to define success while you are at it,.... Scary how I read you preaching this line...................

As intelligent as you claim to be you continue to be unable "to relate" to something you "should be intimately aware of.

A good anology would be my claiming that as a human being I can't relate to the horror of a woman being gang raped,... cause I stayed out of all possible situations that could place me in that position thru "hard work."


MEH.

[Varient]

No. This time i'll be blunt. I emphatically believe in my point. What you have done is made an erroneous assumption that the few represent the many. The worlds ideals (note I said ideals, not realities) are not based upon the few. They are based upon the stability of the many, with exception to the few. This is why you have innocent people in prison and why some people get away with WIC and Welfare. Because systems are established for the many.

There were slaves who bought their freedom and became wealthy, during slavery. But their success is in no way a representation of the state of an entire body of people. My argument (or my point rather) is not about dismissing the notion of personal responsibility. Rather, I state that personal responsibility is only a fraction of what is necessary. There must be a group responsibility that says "Yes our people oppressed your people and because of centuries of oppression that continued until the last half of the 20th century, your people are struggling to gain equal social footing." At the same time group responsibility says "Yes our people have been historically disadvantaged but now we finally have the opportunities that our ancestors fought and died for. So now we can begin to move foward as we always wanted to." But there is no way for one to happen without the other.

If you want to see how unequal things are even now, then please look up The Jena Six then look up Aloysius Staton Jr. The Jena Six were locked away for assualting a Caucasian class mate, after he called them ******s (this was after the six students were assaulted at a party the week before, as well as threatened at gunpoint the week prior to that). The six young gentlemen all faced up to 25 years in prison (though one of them got off so far). The inverse of that situation is our dear mister Aloysius Staton Jr. He was assaulted by six young white males at a McDonalds, because he was dating a white woman (Aloysius is obviously African American).

Unlike the Jena Six however, the six young white men faced no charges at all. In fact, it was Aloysius who was locked up for defending himself with a glass bottle found in the resturant. Don't sit here and tell me that hard work alone will do it. Slaves worked hard till they literally died. And all of that hard work only benefited their masters. Never themselves. There must be as much recognition from the dominant and controlling population (White people) that hard work should be rewarded, as there must be williingness to work hard from the minority population (in this case, Black people).

Hmph.

How many ways can you tell someone that he works from a faulty premise based on a party line that has hindered blacks for over a hundred years?

After three tries where his response remained the same - that HE never had those issues because HE played by white folks rules and it got him w/o any extra effort to where HE wanted to be - I ALMOST wished he started running into even ONE TENTH the crap I've had to deal with.

Meh again,... This thread is...

[Lightning Strykez!]

Did anyone hear Hillary Clinton's comments about RFK's assassination today? I fear that this woman may be giving subtle hints to her supporters to have Obama knocked off. Here's the reason why: She said that she shouldn't drop out of the race because of what happened with RFK. After he was killed off during his primary, his opponent was able to secure the nomination!

I'm sorry but...she is utterly DISGUSTING. :mad: This woman is scum. I mean, think about it: Why would you bring such a thing up when you are talking about the potential first African American President??? Its almost too stupid to believe. :down

And watch. Someone will pick up on that hint from her and try something.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Oh--and before any of you say "Caliph, you're just misinterpreting what she's saying" just try using that rationale in real life and see how well it works for you. EXAMPLE: What if Tiger Woods is leading by 20 strokes and the second-place player publicly says that there is still hope for him to win the game because other potential winners have died on the golf course before?

Oh and yes. I am PISSED about this. This woman is Satan! :mad:

[Superhobo]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but seriously -

Shaking my head @ "plenty".

U show your stats and I'll show mine.

Okay. Show them.

You'll also have to define success while you are at it,.... Scary how I read you preaching this line...................

Zuh?

As intelligent as you claim to be you continue to be unable "to relate" to something you "should be intimately aware of.

I love how you continue to attack him because he simply hasn't had it happen to him, yet or otherwise.

A good anology would be my claiming that as a human being I can't relate to the horror of a woman being gang raped,... cause I stayed out of all possible situations that could place me in that position thru "hard work."


MEH.

That's a horrible analogy. What :huh:

[BlackLantern]

Shaking my head @ "plenty".

U show your stats and I'll show mine.

You'll also have to define success while you are at it,.... Scary how I read you preaching this line...................

As intelligent as you claim to be you continue to be unable "to relate" to something you "should be intimately aware of.

A good anology would be my claiming that as a human being I can't relate to the horror of a woman being gang raped,... cause I stayed out of all possible situations that could place me in that position thru "hard work."


MEH.

Do you want me to say I have gotten lucky.....then fine I have....and I won't apologize for it....I'm not going to stomp around this world holding a grudge against the white man when I have managed to do pretty good in this world.....

If that makes me a sellout or an "uncle tom" than so be it....

[Varient]

(Smile)

I called her slime when her husband got caught spooging on Monica's dress.

I'm so hard core a prude in that I CAN'T IMAGINE what it would take in my marriage to have me be in the public eye and still get caught over and over doing things with willing women outside my marriage.

In my family,.. when a man that visible continues to be that stupid,... and the wife doesn't leave,.. then she is a large part of the problem.

Having heard her talk over the last decade or so,.. I beli

I believe she's one of those women who are selfishly stupid in regards to relationships with men,.... or she's Gay.


I agree with you that she is throwing out hints for somebody to wack Obama so she won't have to prior to November.


Who the Hell can I vote for??? I STILL have ISSUES with All three.

NONE of the three in the media will do WHAT I WANT DONE,... NONE are giving me THE WARM AND FUZZIES either.

"Meh" is just my word of the day.

[BlackLantern]

None of these candidates make me believe they can be the President....Not Old Man McCain, not please make me the first woman President Hillary, and not Americas' black friend Barack Obama.....on this we agree V...

[Varient]

Believe this:
I've not attacked him.
If ANYTHING he has told me that the things I have run into and experienced were my fault for not toeing some line like he did.

Well,... At current count FOUR OTHERS have told him exactly the same thing,.. and he remains of the opinion that because he conforms he doesn't and will never have issues in this regard.

I can attack him if you like,.. but I thought this was conversation,.. where we post our info and debate?



I know this wasn't directed at me, but seriously -



Okay. Show them.



Zuh?



I love how you continue to attack him because he simply hasn't had it happen to him, yet or otherwise.



That's a horrible analogy. What :huh:

And sorry,.... What I said was for him to answer,... the fact that you expect me to answer my own questions first shows me that I need to be doing on this thread,...

V.

[BlackLantern]

I don't think I will never encounter said issues.....I just said I haven't yet and I think a big part of it comes from how I conduct myself as I go about my life and not just pure chance....

[Superhobo]

Believe this:
I've not attacked him.
If ANYTHING he has told me that the things I have run into and experienced were my fault for not toeing some line like he did.

Do you want me to say I have gotten lucky.....then fine I have....and I won't apologize for it....I'm not going to stomp around this world holding a grudge against the white man when I have managed to do pretty good in this world.....

Are we reading the same thing, here - or what?


Well,... At current count FOUR OTHERS have told him exactly the same thing,.. and he remains of the opinion that because he conforms he doesn't and will never have issues in this regard.

Now, are you sure that's what he's been saying, though?

I can attack him if you like,.. but I thought this was conversation,.. where we post our info and debate?

Post info here plox. Stop going off on hastily written accusatory posts, and discuss. Debate.

And sorry,.... What I said was for him to answer,... the fact that you expect me to answer my own questions first shows me that I need to be doing on this thread,...

V.

I apologize. I thought this was a public discussion forum. How silly of me. :whatever:

[Arach Knight]

Do you want me to say I have gotten lucky.....then fine I have....and I won't apologize for it....I'm not going to stomp around this world holding a grudge against the white man when I have managed to do pretty good in this world.....

If that makes me a sellout or an "uncle tom" than so be it....


You should never have to apologize for making it in this world. The world is cruel and callous. Anyone who can succeed, should be applauded. Making it tomorrow is literally a miracle on all accounts when you consider what this world deals with (hate, crime, famine, disease, war, rape etc). I do not think that Varient's intention is to make you feel shame for your position. I certainly can speak for myself in saying that I am not trying to make you feel bad. I have been fairly privileged myself. My family moved from the Long Beach ghetto in 1989 after my mother was robbed at gunpoint while at work. But we came to a suburb and that has afforded me a myriad of academic and financial opportunities that are not accessible to most others from where I was born.

The problem here, is that you are over generalizing your circumstance as being applicable to all of our people and that isn't the case. You are coming off as condescending. As if those who don't make it in this world, are at fault for that lack of progression. It is almost as though you are blaming them for the bad hand life may have dealt them. It is nearly comparable to saying that a baby born with a fatal disease, must not have been trying hard enough to be born healthy. Just as some babies are born healthy and others are born diseased, some people are born in an environment that is more conducive of success and others are born in an environment that attempts to destroy success.

But just as one may grow up and adapt with their ailments (I am an asthmatic myself), some must grow up and adapt while having been born in a ghetto with a low income family and poor standing educational institution. There is only so much personal responsibilty in this world. At some point, we have to give in and realize that we can not control every aspect of our lives. People can no more expect hard work alone to carry them to all success, than you could expect hard work to prevent your death. Some things are out of our hands. And it is your lack of that, that has caused this to be a some what frustrating discussion. Just leave this debate understanding that not everyone is you or is like you. And that their differences do not make them less valid or less capable.

[Tag279]

I don't think I will never encounter said issues.....I just said I haven't yet and I think a big part of it comes from how I conduct myself as I go about my life and not just pure chance....

Hold up brother Black people that have experienced hatred and racism do not have such things directed toward them by any fault of their own.:cmad:

To sggest that blacks that are victims of racist hatred are culpable to that racist treatment is dead wrong.

You have not experienced racism; come to Mississipi and in short order you will recieve.

[Varient]

Do you want me to say I have gotten lucky.....then fine I have....and I won't apologize for it....I'm not going to stomp around this world holding a grudge against the white man when I have managed to do pretty good in this world.....

If that makes me a sellout or an "uncle tom" than so be it....

No.

I want you to understand that what has worked for you has been documented to NOT WORK for the Majority of my people since we were accepted in the halls of higher learning,.. where the premise was first placed that if we worked hard we would arrive.

Don't need you to exclaim that you were "lucky", Don't want you to apologize for reaching your goals without the amount of effort that almost everyone else I know has had to, Don't even want you to hold a grudge.

See,... Based on your response I believe you take my "lack of trust" to be a grudge or chip on my shoulder.

I read the Jenna 6 and am not surprised.

I believe if it were possible - MLK junior would spin in his grave until we saw smoke at such a one-sided example happening in this country 40 years after he fought to keep it from happening ever again,... And the same things he heard when he stood up for change are still being said - To the same effect, because even with the CHANCE for improvement THE MAJORITY of us NEED MORE than to just "try harder" at playing the white mans game.

In my experience "complete trust" is no longer an option. Benifit of doubt is the best I can do,... and that's with a cynical bent.


Peace.

[Varient]

Are we reading the same thing, here - or what?




Now, are you sure that's what he's been saying, though?



Post info here plox. Stop going off on hastily written accusatory posts, and discuss. Debate.



I apologize. I thought this was a public discussion forum. How silly of me. :whatever:

Sarcasm noted - Please don't take offense because I refuse to divide my attention by defending myself from you and demanding a better answer from him.

I think I'm not being clear enough about how unsettling it is for me to read someone believe that his behavior will protect him from stuff that has come looking for me no matter what I was doing at the time.

Peace.

[Tag279]

I think I'm not being clear enough about how unsettling it is for me to read someone believe that his behavior will protect him from stuff that has come looking for me no matter what I was doing at the time.

Varient you speak the truth.

[Superhobo]

Sarcasm noted - Please don't take offense because I refuse to divide my attention by defending myself from you and demanding a better answer from him.

It's not like I'm asking you any really hard, existential questions, dude. I mean, come on.


I think I'm not being clear enough about how unsettling it is for me to read someone believe that his behavior will protect him from stuff that has come looking for me no matter what I was doing at the time.

Peace.

I think you're getting confused in what he's meant. He hasn't denied that it exists, and he hasn't denied that it happens. He hasn't even denied the probability that it will likely happen to him in the future. He's said that, up to the present time, it hasn't happened to him. Yet.

Damn, Huey P.

[BlackLantern]

I think you're getting confused in what he's meant. He hasn't denied that it exists, and he hasn't denied that it happens. He hasn't even denied the probability that it will likely happen to him in the future. He's said that, up to the present time, it hasn't happened to him. Yet.


Yes....my point exactly....Thank you....

[Tag279]

Yes....my point exactly....Thank you....

So you are not saying that black people that have experienced racism are responsible for it? :huh:

I am a Fire Inspector in my city and a gentleman called for a Burn Permit inspection. I told the man that it was okay for him to burn but he needed to move his pile about 10-more feet away from his newly built pine deck.

The man began to dog curse me to put it mildly. I had done this gentleman no wrong and I was courtious and professional. The man ended his rant by saying "I am sorry that my tax dollar pays your sorry N----- Ass's salary"

[BlackLantern]

So you are not saying that black people that have experienced racism are responsible for it? :huh:

I am a Fire Inspector in my city and a gentleman called for a Burn Permit inspection. I told the man that it was okay for him to burn but he needed to move his pile about 10-more feet away from his newly built pine deck.

The man began to dog curse me to put it mildly. I had done this gentleman no wrong and I was courtious and professional.

No...I'm not saying that at all.....all I'm saying is that I have never experienced it in a way that has adversely affected my quality of life or my job....

I would hope, regardless of your race, that butt-head would have cursed anyone out for telling him something he didn't want to hear....

I'll be the first one to say that this country is filled with racism and ignorance and that we have not come as far as we'd like.....I was standing in a grocery store the other day and heard two people talking....one of them referred to Barack Obama as a Muslim ****** and called Hillary Clinton a feminist ****.....we have a long long long way to go...

[Tag279]

BL I am a black man and i live in a small city in Mississippi. I am the (first and only) black Fire Inspector my city has ever had in a fire department that is 126-years old.

My city is 64% black in population and for the first time in my city's history 3.5 years ago we had a prdominantly black City Council 3 out of 5 with 4-predominantly black districts out of 5. The City has been majority black since the 60s.

I have been an inspector for 6-years and my first two years as an inspector were trying to say the least. Defacto Institutional Racism is alive and kicking in my kneck of the woods.

[BlackLantern]

It sure is alive and kicking....especially in a state where black people used to get hung from trees on a fairly regular basis....We don't have that kind of "tradition" here in Connecticut....

[Tag279]

It sure is alive and kicking....especially in a state where black people used to get hung from trees on a fairly regular basis....We don't have that kind of "tradition" here in Connecticut....

Don't take it for granted :cwink:

We have a serious racial divide here but it is improving and in time we can irradicate it. The old heads are dying off and the younger people are seeing that grandpa may not know what he is talking about.

[Varient]

It's not like I'm asking you any really hard, existential questions, dude. I mean, come on.



I think you're getting confused in what he's meant. He hasn't denied that it exists, and he hasn't denied that it happens. He hasn't even denied the probability that it will likely happen to him in the future. He's said that, up to the present time, it hasn't happened to him. Yet.

Damn, Huey P.


No.
What he said that started all this was:
"I was an Operations Specialist (OS) stationed in San Diego and Yokosuka, Japan....it was PACFLT, so I made it around most of Asia, Hawaii, and Guam. I grew up in CT and recently moved back to CT about 3 years ago for my new job...but the place I live in CT has a 2 percent black population within the county....I don't think I've "slipped through the cracks"....I busted my ass and got ahead...."

Didn't,.. and still don't read as "He hasn't even denied the probability that it will likely happen to him in the future. He's said that, up to the present time, it hasn't happened to him. Yet."

It reads like: "I don't have these problems and I never will because unlike other blacks,.. I know how to work and get ahead"

Meh.


Yes....my point exactly....Thank you....

Then you shouldn't have come across saying the two posts where it was your behavior that saves you - period.

[SentinelMind]

I don't think I will never encounter said issues.....I just said I haven't yet and I think a big part of it comes from how I conduct myself as I go about my life and not just pure chance....

BL, I agree with you fullheartedly. There are racist out there, but I don't live my life trying to impress racists. I feel in this country, if you avoid the temptations, the foolishness, the stupid confrontations, conduct yourself with respect, you can succeed in this country. My parents had it worse than me, they born in a third world country, as was I, worked hard, avoided bad influences, even people of the same background, worked hard to get here and made a stake for themselves.

I feel its very disingenuous and insulting when people carry themselves in a way where they don't allow racist confrontations or bad influences bring them down, are labelled as "getting lucky"...."slipping thru the cracks". The lifestyle you lead, the values you have will determine whether you'll be a success in this country.

[Varient]

BL, I agree with you fullheartedly. There are racist out there, but I don't live my life trying to impress racists. I feel in this country, if you avoid the temptations, the foolishness, the stupid confrontations, conduct yourself with respect, you can succeed in this country. My parents had it worse than me, they born in a third world country, as was I, worked hard, avoided bad influences, even people of the same background, worked hard to get here and made a stake for themselves.

I feel its very disingenuous and insulting when people carry themselves in a way where they don't allow racist confrontations or bad influences bring them down, are labelled as "getting lucky"...."slipping thru the cracks". The lifestyle you lead, the values you have will determine whether you'll be a success in this country.

Scary,...
Just put into my face what a waste of time this is.

I just read someone saying that it is possible to avoid the BS,..avoid the racists,...to have it happen to you- and admit it - is to let it get you down.

You just wrote that in no way did BL slip thru the cracks by living in a state smaller tham San Diego county where the COAST GUARD has it's acadamy so it has had over a hundred years dealing with diversity where they (the state)would be insane to chase away one of their cash cows - that his "behavior" is what prevented any possible incounters in 29 years of living with any racism?
AFTER he admitted his being regulated to military bases/towns?



You've convinced me with that trip from reality that you are a sybil looking to stir ****.


I'm done.

I'll read along and answer folk with sense,.. but thiat last was incredible in the belief that flies in the face of even those bogus stats you tried to infer at one point.


Gee,.. one wonders how BL would've explained going out to a tree where he normally eats lunch and finding whites sitting under it and Nooses on the branches - I'm SURE HIS BEHAVIOR WOULD SOMEHOW PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING.

(DISGUST)

[Superhobo]

No.
What he said that started all this was:
"I was an Operations Specialist (OS) stationed in San Diego and Yokosuka, Japan....it was PACFLT, so I made it around most of Asia, Hawaii, and Guam. I grew up in CT and recently moved back to CT about 3 years ago for my new job...but the place I live in CT has a 2 percent black population within the county....I don't think I've "slipped through the cracks"....I busted my ass and got ahead...."

Didn't,.. and still don't read as "He hasn't even denied the probability that it will likely happen to him in the future. He's said that, up to the present time, it hasn't happened to him. Yet."

It reads like: "I don't have these problems and I never will because unlike other blacks,.. I know how to work and get ahead"

Meh.



See, I think you're reading far too deeply into it though, and it makes you come off as paranoid.

[Superhobo]

And hey, btw -

http://im.rediff.com/entertai/2005/feb/14sld4.jpg

LEARN TO TYPE IN AT LEAST SEMI-LEGIBLE PARAGRAPHS LIKE A BIG BOY!

[Varient]

See, I think you're reading far too deeply into it though, and it makes you come off as paranoid.

Ah,... And he has convinced me that as a black person he has a real loose grasp on reality,... But what saves most of this continuing convo is that "benifit of doubt" thing I operate under.

It's not paranoid to marvel in open disbelief when we have stuff happening in the NEWS to blacks who were literally minding their own business when some racist loser steps up to do dirt, and here a person steps up and declares he's a black man and says that he can't relate to being treated or encountering a racist situation because the way he acts and his work ethic prohibits it.

He reads as unbalanced,.. hence the others who have also been typing to him.


Sad that you can't see this,.. no heat.

V.

[Varient]

And hey, btw -

http://im.rediff.com/entertai/2005/feb/14sld4.jpg

LEARN TO TYPE IN AT LEAST SEMI-LEGIBLE PARAGRAPHS LIKE A BIG BOY!

Adapt child.

I'm able to read that hack-eyed mess on all the boards w/o too much trouble and am mature enough to not sweat when you kiddies mispell words or better yet - show your lack of knowledge on too many subjects.

Tsk.

I expect Sybil that if you can't understand someone,.. stop responding to them.

Peace.

(Laughter - some of you,...)

[Superhobo]

Ah,... And he has convinced me that as a black person he has a real loose grasp on reality,... But what saves most of this continuing convo is that "benifit of doubt" thing I operate under.

:whatever:

It's not paranoid to marvel in open disbelief when we have stuff happening in the NEWS to blacks who were literally minding their own business when some racist loser steps up to do dirt, and here a person steps up and declares he's a black man and says that he can't relate to being treated or encountering a racist situation because the way he acts and his work ethic prohibits it.

See, again - that's not what he's said, though. Why're you continuing to misconstrue his words like that?

He reads as unbalanced,.. hence the others who have also been typing to him.

http://www.willferrell.fr/IMG/arton42.jpg

Oh, sweet IRONY!

Sad that you can't see this,.. no heat.

V.


No heat? Zuh?

[Superhobo]

Adapt child.

Adapt to what? You apparently don't know how to type in a legible format. You don't know how do utilize correct punctuation, and you show a similar disregard for spelling. Sheesh!

While some of your arguments are well thought out, your posts themselves are just messes.


I'm able to read that hack-eyed mess on all the boards w/o too much trouble and am mature enough to not sweat when you kiddies mispell words or better yet - show your lack of knowledge on too many subjects.

Is it funny to anyone else that he misspelled 'misspell?'

Just me? Hmm.


I expect Sybil that if you can't understand someone,.. stop responding to them.

What?

Peace.

(Laughter - some of you,...)


Ahuh. :dry:

[Varient]

I'm not the one who didn't read his previous posts.

He has said that his only encounter in 29 years with the police was when he was speeding.

He has said more than once that "he can't relate" to racist things that happen to others because it never happened to him.

He has said that the way he lives is the primary reason why he doesn't have these issues.

You,.... have been spoiling for an arguement since you tried to get me to answer my questions that I put to him,... which by the way he couldn't answer.

Now I'm tolerating your rudeness as you resort to insults to try to get a rise that way.

TSK.

[Varient]

Adapt to what? You apparently don't know how to type in a legible format. You don't know how do utilize correct punctuation, and you show a similar disregard for spelling. Sheesh!

While some of your arguments are well thought out, your posts themselves are just messes.



Is it funny to anyone else that he misspelled 'misspell?'

Just me? Hmm.




What?




Ahuh. :dry:

(smiling at you)
Look,... I can't get upset,... language has NEVER been important enough for me in a relaxed setting to use spell-check.
When I consider the large number of people I encounter everyday who mispronouce and misspell words but are trying to communicate because they care - I just smile whenever someone tries too hard to be the grammar police when they run out of argument.




like you just did.


LOL.

[Superhobo]

I'm not the one who didn't read his previous posts.

He has said that his only encounter in 29 years with the police was when he was speeding.

Yuh-huh. Was there, sir.

He has said more than once that "he can't relate" to racist things that happen to others because it never happened to him.

Following you so far...

He has said that the way he lives is the primary reason why he doesn't have these issues.

Where? And further more, where are you getting the meaning that you inferred out of it?

You,.... have been spoiling for an arguement since you tried to get me to answer my questions that I put to him,... which by the way he couldn't answer.

O...kay...?

Now I'm tolerating your rudeness as you resort to insults to try to get a rise that way.

Get what rise, what way? You do sound paranoid, dude. I'm sorry, hey. But, it's all you. As for my last posts, it speaks for itself.

Laughter, some of you. :whatever:

[SentinelMind]

No disrespect, I'll reply to rest of comments later, I'm little tired. Too much insomnia.

Gee,.. one wonders how BL would've explained going out to a tree where he normally eats lunch and finding whites sitting under it and Nooses on the branches - I'm SURE HIS BEHAVIOR WOULD SOMEHOW PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING.

(DISGUST)

You mean the tree where the black student in question referred to it as "the white tree" to his own principal....yeah, there was no racial confrontation going on there before that at all. I wouldn't have sat near a tree labelled a "white tree". I wouldn't have been one of the caught dead playing near with the nooses either.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/WireStory?id=3638431&page=2

[Superhobo]

(smiling at you)

Well, I am dashingly handsome.

Look,... I can't get upset,... language has NEVER been important enough for me in a relaxed setting to use spell-check.

Obviously.

When I consider the large number of people I encounter everyday who mispronouce and misspell words but are trying to communicate because they care

Aw.

- I just smile whenever someone tries too hard to be the grammar police when they run out of argument.




like you just did.


LOL.


LOLWUT

Where have I 'ran out of argument?' I'm still responding to your other posts. :huh:

[Arach Knight]

You mean the tree where the black student in question referred to it as "the white tree" to his own principal....yeah, there was no racial confrontation going on there before that at all. I wouldn't have sat near a tree labelled a "white tree". I wouldn't have been one of the caught dead playing near with the nooses either.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/WireStory?id=3638431&page=2


You just proved Varient's point. The student at the class assembly asked for permission to sit under a tree, that most of the students on campus, assumed to be for whites only. Segregation ended 48 years ago yet an African American child today in modern times was fearful about associating with White students. These are the harsh realities that exist in this world, regardless of behavior. That was the first day of school.

This child had done nothing. Made no academic or social faults. He merely asked if he could sit with the White students. Despite starting the year with a fresh start, it only took till the next day for White students to respond with nooses (symbolic of lynching) under the tree. If anything, this proves that hard work and "proper behavior" are not nearly enough to assure that you can succeed in life without being beleaguered by disdained opposition. As I have said before. This isn't a matter of personal responsibility. This is a matter of group responsibility in which both sides of the problem, must recognize their role in the problem.

[SentinelMind]

You just proved Varient's point. The student at the class assembly asked for permission to sit under a tree, that most of the students on campus, assumed to be for whites only.

The principal commented that he thought the student was joking when he asked for permission. The quote was only used to demonstrate that the unspoken word was that the community thought it was a "white" tree because white people hang out there regularly. I'm not disagreeing there were racial tensions there, obviously a "white" tree is an example of racist tension. Varient's comment implied the black students sat there normally and white students came along and defamed it with nooses. The point was the black student recognized a scene of potential racial confrontation and sought it out. Why would you seek out racist, territorial confrontation? Just because you can? Sure you can, segregation is over...you can if you want to, you are legally allowed to. Byt why do you want to sit at this tree....so badly? What is so special about this tree, other than the racist, territorial boundaries it represents. That's the only thing special about the tree, which is why the student asked the question in jest. That's why it was cut down, it was a symbol of racist territorial tit-for-tat it represented.

To me, sitting under what is colloqially known as a "white" tree is no different than standing on the "Mexican" corner, haing around Irish pub, eating at a Confederate restaurant........sure you can do it, but if the people who frequent there have a problem with it and you put yourself in a position where racial confrontation fly....I can't really feel all that sorry. Yes, the students who put up the nooses should be punished severely. But, me personally, I would never put my in that position in the first place. I don't go around looking for that type of racial confrontation with people are not doing anything to help me succeed. I'm not here trying to attract attention from those losers. I have bigger fish to fry.

[Arach Knight]

Again you proved the point. He wasn't seeking out confrontation. The principal was doing damage control. The student was serious. Why shouldn't he sit under a tree? Because racist students decided that Black's shouldn't sit there? And what if these same students decided that Blacks shouldn't go to the local McDonalds? What about certain bus stops? If these students can't sit under a tree to share lunch and integrate, then what was the point of the Civil Rights Movement? What is the point of anybody trying to associate with those outside of their race? And if people accept injustice, then how could we dare to call ourselves civilized and distinct from other savage beasts on this earth?

If those students kept quiet and assumed that ducking low would get them ahead, then how could they expect to go anywhere in town let alone in life, if they are intimidated out of making any progress. All you have proven is that working hard and minding your business will not aid you in being successful. And certainly, ducking low and minding your business will only allow others to abuse you socially and beyond. It is any humans right to share public property. He was not wrong for asking to sit under the tree nor was he wrong for trying to sit under it. The only wrong is that somebody thought skin tone was enough of a reason to threaten him and every other minority student on the campus.

[SentinelMind]

Again you proved the point. He wasn't seeking out confrontation. The principal was doing damage control. The student was serious. Why shouldn't he sit under a tree? Because racist students decided that Black's shouldn't sit there? And what if these same students decided that Blacks shouldn't go to the local McDonalds? What about certain bus stops? If these students can't sit under a tree to share lunch and integrate, then what was the point of the Civil Rights Movement? What is the point of anybody trying to associate with those outside of their race? And if people accept injustice, then how could we dare to call ourselves civilized and distinct from other savage beasts on this earth?

The Civil Rights movement was to prevent institutionalized, racial segregation. MLKR Jr preached loving people beyond the color of skin, but the impact of the Civil Rights movement was to end institutionalized segregation, ...that's all legislation can really do. You can't pass legislation to make people love each other. The Civil Rights movement didn't and can't end racial, territorial behavior, it just made sure Uncle Sam didn't prevent you from entering certain institutions based on race. I agree the students who put up the noose should be punished, and they were. I just don't view this "white" tree that was later cut down by the school as something worth fighting over.

If those students kept quiet and assumed that ducking low would get them ahead, then how could they expect to go anywhere in town let alone in life, if they are intimidated out of making any progress. All you have proven is that working hard and minding your business will not aid you in being successful. And certainly, ducking low and minding your business will only allow others to abuse you socially and beyond. It is any humans right to share public property. He was not wrong for asking to sit under the tree nor was he wrong for trying to sit under it. The only wrong is that somebody thought skin tone was enough of a reason to threaten him and every other minority student on the campus.

I strongly disagree with the bolded part. I think that is defeatest mentality that produces self-prophesing result of failure. That idea that you can't succeed unless you change the nature of your opponent is one I don't agree with. Many people have that experienced racism first hand have shown that success is possible, but it is only possible through you, not through the opinions with others, especially kids with school yard mentality. Get rid of the negativity, stay away from troublemakers, and stake your claim to the resource, profession that you want. The way I view life is that I pick and choose my fights. Is the reward worth the fight?

I'm not saying he was wrong for sitting under the tree. Just like you're not wrong for running through a bad neighborhood 5 o'clock in the morning. You are not wrong for frequenting an area notoriously known for being visited by crooks. But you have to ask yourself.....is the reward of doing this worth the confrontation or potential risks you open yourself up to? You have the right to do so, but just because you have the right to do so doesn't mean you will not be exposed to risks. Just because you have the right to stand on a corner doesn't mean you won't be shot. I just don't see sitting under a tree known throughout the school for racial tension worth fighting for. You want to put yourself up to that risk, you have a right to, but that is your decision. I don't view sitting under a tree frequented by racist, schoolyard bullies as a "success". I view running a company, being a lawyer, doctor, owning stock, selling insurance, being a great athlete, entertainer, producer,....as success.

When I was younger, I once ate at a restaurant with my family...and we came out of the area to be intimidated by these homeless hustlers. We went there a second time, and were approached by these same hustlers begginf for money, threatening as we approached car. We ate in a bad area...now, we had a right to eat there, but just because you have a right to eat there doesn't mean someone is going to jump out and save you, stop you from being harrassed. You have to ask yourself are you willing to take that confrontation on. We decided not to eat there again. Because it wasn't worth fight. That's how I live my life. I pick and choose my fights. If something is worth the fight, go ahead. If something's not, go somewhere else.

[Arach Knight]

That idea that you can't succeed unless you change the nature of your opponent is one I don't agree with.

I'm not saying he was wrong for sitting under the tree. Just like you're not wrong for running through a bad neighborhood 5 o'clock in the morning.

First I should state that I misstated one of my statements. I should have said that you proved that "hard work and minding your business alone are not enough to lead to success." As it were though, I never stated that success requires you to change the nature of your opponent. I have consistently said in this debate, that success for racial relations comes from both sides recognizing their role in the problem.

Whites must realize that their social position has been obtained through the oppression and cheating of multiple people, and that said oppression has placed many ethnic groups at a disadvantage in this country. Blacks must realize that although history has given us a disadvantage, we are now afforded a nearly level playing field. We must take advantage of that opportunity and get further, before we complain about being held back.

Lastly, your juxtaposition about a bad neighborhood was a poor one. Children legally have to attend their local institution of education. This environment, by law, is supposed to provide security (physical and mental). You are not required to go into a bad neighborhood at five in the morning. You are required to attend school. Since you are forced into this environment by law, that is why it is legally obligated to be as comforting (within reason) as possible.

There is no comfort in knowing that you are denied access to a part of the school, because of an unspoken understanding that that part is for whites only. It was the schools responsibility to dismantle such a prejudice (the same way they break up fights and other circumstances that lead to an unsafe school environment) and they did not until this problem erupted. So there is no comparison to a place that you legally must attend and as such must legally protect you physically and mentally. As opposed to a neighborhood that you do not have to be in regardless of the time of day.

[Handsome Rob]

That idea that you can't succeed unless you change the nature of your opponent is one I don't agree with. Many people have that experienced racism first hand have shown that success is possible, but it is only possible through you, not through the opinions with others, especially kids with school yard mentality. Get rid of the negativity, stay away from troublemakers, and stake your claim to the resource, profession that you want.

:up::up::up::up::up::up::up:

[Tag279]

SentinelMind it seems you are missing the point Varient was making. Yes hard work, tenacity, ability, and intellect are determining factors in one's ability to be successful. But there are people who work against people because of their color.

In my city about two years ago a black man was found dead hanging from a tree. Yes hanging in 2006. As it turned out two white men hanged the young man because he was about to marry one of the guys' sister. They took him out to have a few beers and by the end of the night he was hanged. And he was found the next morning at about 9:00am.

In Lauderdale County MS (a couple of miles from the city I live in) at Lockheed Martin a man went on a shooting spree and killed seven people and then killed himself. He resented the fact that blacks at the factory were not placed beneath him that was in 2003. He killed 6-black people and one white person he shot several. (the shooter)His girl friend said "He was a victim(the shooter) they tried to make him get along with them black folks."

I am an example that hard work and ability overcomes circumstances but I assure that racism stares me in the face daily. Due to no fault of my own.

In the south racism is present and allowed under the surface.

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1817672&page=1%3Chttp://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1817672&page=1%3E

[BlackLantern]

I'm not the one who didn't read his previous posts.

He has said that his only encounter in 29 years with the police was when he was speeding.

He has said more than once that "he can't relate" to racist things that happen to others because it never happened to him.

He has said that the way he lives is the primary reason why he doesn't have these issues.

You,.... have been spoiling for an arguement since you tried to get me to answer my questions that I put to him,... which by the way he couldn't answer.

Now I'm tolerating your rudeness as you resort to insults to try to get a rise that way.

TSK.

No...I said that's what I think is the reason, more so than just blind chance.....I'm not certain of it though

[BlackLantern]

SentinelMind it seems you are missing the point Varient was making. Yes hard work, tenacity, ability, and intellect are determining factors in one's ability to be successful. But there are people who work against people because of their color.

In my city about two years ago a black man was found dead hanging from a tree. Yes hanging in 2006. As it turned out two white men hanged the young man because he was about to marry one of the guys' sister. They took him out to have a few beers and by the end of the night he was hanged. And he was found the next morning at about 9:00am.

In Lauderdale County MS (a couple of miles from the city I live in) at Lockheed Martin a man went on a shooting spree and killed seven people and then killed himself. He resented the fact that blacks at the factory were not placed beneath him that was in 2003. He killed 6-black people and one white person he shot several. (the shooter)His girl friend said "He was a victim(the shooter) they tried to make him get along with them black folks."

I am an example that hard work and ability overcomes circumstances but I assure that racism stares me in the face daily. Due to no fault of my own.

In the south racism is present and allowed under the surface.

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1817672&page=1%3Chttp://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1817672&page=1%3E

exactly IN THE SOUTH....I'm not trying to sound like an ignorant Yankee here, but what do you expect from a region of the country that, as little as 45 years ago, had county sponsored lynchings???? I'm from and live in Connecticut, I have lived in Virginia, California, and Washington State....and outside of the heated argument here and there, I did not encounter rampant racism....

[Tag279]

I have lived in Chicago, Ohio, California, Birmingham AL, and Florida. And racism is present it is just not in your face . In the south it does not hide as well.

My point is people are not to blame fore the hate and contempt directed toward them based on their color.

Don't get me wrong klan meetings don't go on on main street but those views are present under the surface.

In CA noone cares what you are. In Chicago it is more about socio economics not race.

In MS there are poor whites and poor blacks. The poor whites resent blacks that have attained a higher level of standing in society hence racial tensions are present in that poorer community.

BL I wish I could talk to you I cant type enough to offer you a better level of understanding.

[Tag279]

Has CT ever had a black govenor or US senator? How many predominantly Black districts are in the state?

Has a black person ever run for any of those offices I just mentioned?

If not why if they did why did they not win?

There is no competition for power and influence so therefore the tensions are not as apparent.

The racial separations appear to be socioeconomic and it allows detatchment. In my state the white power brokers are dying out and the black population is vieng for power based on the majority.

Things are begining to change and blacks in more and more parts of my state. when something begins to die it fights for life.

[BlackLantern]

We have had black reps...Gary Franks being the most notable.....There are only 2 or 3 predominantly black districts in the state....and those are in New Haven and Fairfield County. As for Governors, we have a female governor right now, I don't think we have had a black governor as of yet

[Erzengel]

David Paterson became the US's 4th and NY's 1st Black Governor replacing, "How Much by the Hour" Spitzer.

The other 3, I think were from Virginia, Massachusetts and Louisiana (although that was in the late 1800s).

Currently, Paterson and Deval Patrick of Mass are the only ones.

[Superhobo]

And then Varient just pimped away.

[The Senator]

Has CT ever had a black govenor or US senator? How many predominantly Black districts are in the state?

Has a black person ever run for any of those offices I just mentioned?

If not why if they did why did they not win?

There is no competition for power and influence so therefore the tensions are not as apparent.

The racial separations appear to be socioeconomic and it allows detatchment. In my state the white power brokers are dying out and the black population is vieng for power based on the majority.

Things are begining to change and blacks in more and more parts of my state. when something begins to die it fights for life.

One thing I do want to mention (and I'm only using your post as a jumping off point, not as the reason why I'm writing this) is that you cannot blame the loss of a black politician in many states on racism or some other non-political motive. Michael Steele ran for the Senate in 2006, which has the largest per capita African American population (if I remember correctly) of any state. He lost to Ben Cardin, the Democrat in the race. I think Steele's loss had to do more with policy differences than any other factor.

Also, Ken Blackwell lost his race for governor in Ohio the same year. He had problems from the start, though, as he was the Secretary of State in a very corrupt Republican administration. Most Ohioans wanted nothing to do with the Taft administration (Taft had a 15% approval rating at the time), and they voted for Ted Strickland by an overwhelming margin. Ohio is a purple state, and had Blackwell not been involved in the Taft administration, he probably would have done much, much better than he did. I don't chalk that up to racism, either.

There are other black candidates who have run and lost in recent history... Carol Mosely Braun was corrupt and deserved to be removed from office; Harold Ford, Jr. came surprisingly close to winning in the Tennessee Senate election two years ago... in both cases, I don't think racism derailed either candidate's chances of winning. People disagreed with who they were as politicians, not their race.

[BlackLantern]

Marion Berry smoked crack and consorted with prostitutes and was REELECTED....that makes no ****ing sense

[EdRyder]

Harold Ford, Jr. came surprisingly close to winning in the Tennessee Senate election two years ago... in both cases, I don't think racism derailed either candidate's chances of winning. People disagreed with who they were as politicians, not their race.


Being from TN I completley agree with that.However I would point out that Ford and his supporters would say it was racism(given some of the outrageously ridiculous ads that aired here ,there is some truth to it)

[The Senator]

Marion Berry smoked crack and consorted with prostitutes and was REELECTED....that makes no ****ing sense

I totally agree. DC is a "minority-majority" city. Race plays a big part in who gets elected and re-elected, though it isn't the only factor. Democrats, regardless of race, get elected with over 90% of the vote on average.

[The Senator]

Being from TN I completley agree with that.However I would point out that Ford and his supporters would say it was racism(given some of the outrageously ridiculous ads that aired here ,there is some truth to it)

There is some truth to that. But he was running in a fairly conservative state, while running to replace one of the most popular and powerful Republicans in the United States Senate. His polling was pretty consistent throughout the election, so there weren't any major surprises there. I would even argue that he fared better than expected there.

Ford stands a strong chance to succeed Gov. Bredesen in 2010, and in an opinion poll I saw a while ago, he is the top choice against some of the more popular Republicans in the state.

[Arach Knight]

One thing I do want to mention (and I'm only using your post as a jumping off point, not as the reason why I'm writing this) is that you cannot blame the loss of a black politician in many states on racism or some other non-political motive.

I realize that you are not directing this comment toward me (since most of the people in this thread are responding to Tag, BlackLantern, Varient and Sentinel Mind...but not myself) but I had to take this opportunity to emphatically disagree with your above sentiment. This should especially touch home for you, since you proclaim yourself to be an Obama supporter. This video is proof of the racism and ignorance that not only exists in general, but that exists within our political system. Do all states have this problem? From what we know...no they do not. But this video is perhaps a rare and candid moment that sheds some light on a very grim and avoided thought. And this was before Hilary's assassination comments in regards to RFK and Obama (not to mention Mike Huckabee was also making assassination jokes about Obama).

/v/c-q4MDQ0cDI&hl=en

[BlackLantern]

but you can't assert the claim that every single time a black politician runs and loses is because of race and ONLY because of race.....

[Arach Knight]

but you can't assert the claim that every single time a black politician runs and loses is because of race and ONLY because of race.....

I am not sure now if you watched the actual video or if you just rapidly responded to denounce me before reading the entire post.

"Do all states have this problem? From what we know...no they do not. But this video is perhaps a rare and candid moment that sheds some light on a very grim and avoided thought."

I already said that not all states have that problem. But there seemed to be an air of denial that such problems could lead to the failure of a Black politician trying to gain greater ground in the political system. I don't want anyone to think that it is unlikely that a Black politician will be held back by racism. That is why I said "from what we know..." Because in all truth, this video is merely showing those willing to express this ugly truth. We don't know how deep or how shallow such sentiments run in this country. I am some what of an optimist though, and hope that this is only a rare affliction upon our great nation.

[BlackLantern]

It really depends on what part of the country you are in....in the Northeast (where I live) its more about economics than about race....Boston probably being the exception....

[The Senator]

I realize that you are not directing this comment toward me (since most of the people in this thread are responding to Tag, BlackLantern, Varient and Sentinel Mind...but not myself) but I had to take this opportunity to emphatically disagree with your above sentiment. This should especially touch home for you, since you proclaim yourself to be an Obama supporter. This video is proof of the racism and ignorance that not only exists in general, but that exists within our political system. Do all states have this problem? From what we know...no they do not. But this video is perhaps a rare and candid moment that sheds some light on a very grim and avoided thought. And this was before Hilary's assassination comments in regards to RFK and Obama (not to mention Mike Huckabee was also making assassination jokes about Obama).

/v/c-q4MDQ0cDI&hl=en

Is racism a factor when you have a minority seeking elected office? Absolutely. There will never be an election with an ethnic candidate where racism doesn't factor into the election. However, racism isn't the sole factor why minority candidates lose. If Obama loses the 2008 election, it will be downright moronic to attribute his loss solely to racism. The mentality which exists among some voters in states like West Virginia and Kentucky is not representative of states like Michigan or Ohio, which have multiple metropolitan areas with large minority populations. It will have everything to do with his policies and whether he can reach out to voters.

And, in my above post, I listed several black candidates who have lost not due to race, but policy differences. I think that will be the case in this election, even though voters will probably scream "racism killed Obama's chances!" and the Democratic Party will refuse to learn from its mistakes of nominating a far-left liberal who is out of touch with the middle class.

[Arach Knight]

Obama is out of touch with Republicans (i'm assuming that you are taking your sentiment from the comments he made about people clinging to guns and religon, which are staples of Republican ideology) in the middle class...which is mostly an oxymoron when you consider the fact that the Republican party is representative of big business spending/interest and not so much on individual relief. But I will make a concession. I agree that racism alone is not a sole factor/obstacle. Some people are merely unfit for the job, regardless of their ethnic association/membership. And that is the type of fair minded activity that this nation needs. But I wouldn't say that racism is a rare factor either. As for the idea of the North East not being about racism...tell that to Sean Bell and Amidaou Diallo. But I am glad to hear that at least in some places, people have learned in the old states, how to just get along.

[BlackLantern]

Obama is out of touch with Republicans (i'm assuming that you are taking your sentiment from the comments he made about people clinging to guns and religon, which are staples of Republican ideology) in the middle class...which is mostly an oxymoron when you consider the fact that the Republican party is representative of big business spending/interest and not so much on individual relief. But I will make a concession. I agree that racism alone is not a sole factor/obstacle. Some people are merely unfit for the job, regardless of their ethnic association/membership. And that is the type of fair minded activity that this nation needs. But I wouldn't say that racism is a rare factor either. As for the idea of the North East not being about racism...tell that to Sean Bell and Amidaou Diallo. But I am glad to hear that at least in some places, people have learned in the old states, how to just get along.

I should have said in most instances.....NYC has a way of bringing out the best in people....from pouring 50 bullets into an unarmed man to an arrest suspect being sodomized with a broom stick.....

[The Senator]

Obama is out of touch with Republicans (i'm assuming that you are taking your sentiment from the comments he made about people clinging to guns and religon, which are staples of Republican ideology) in the middle class...which is mostly an oxymoron when you consider the fact that the Republican party is representative of big business spending/interest and not so much on individual relief. But I will make a concession. I agree that racism alone is not a sole factor/obstacle. Some people are merely unfit for the job, regardless of their ethnic association/membership. And that is the type of fair minded activity that this nation needs. But I wouldn't say that racism is a rare factor either. As for the idea of the North East not being about racism...tell that to Sean Bell and Amidaou Diallo. But I am glad to hear that at least in some places, people have learned in the old states, how to just get along.

Obama is out of touch with more than just the Republicans in the middle class. He is out of touch with every middle class voter who is active in his or her faith and uses firearms for collective or recreational purposes. To say that they "cling" to guns or religion was out of line, and that sort of elitism is a part of the reason why Democrats lost the 1988 and 2004 elections.

[SentinelMind]

I think Harold Ford lost in Tennessee partly due to racism....think back in 2006. That year, Democrats regained the US Senate and regained the US House. Even the Democratic Governor of Tennessee was re-elected by a wide margin....and yet Harold Ford, a popular Democrat from the House, had wider name recognition, lost during the year of the Democrat TakeBack to mayor of Chattanooga, Bob Corker? That racist "we met at the playboy mansion" ad definitely had an impact. No doubt about it.

[The Senator]

I think Harold Ford lost in Tennessee partly due to racism....think back in 2006. That year, Democrats regained the US Senate and regained the US House. Even the Democratic Governor of Tennessee was re-elected by a wide margin....and yet Harold Ford, a popular Democrat from the House, had wider name recognition, lost during the year of the Democrat TakeBack to mayor of Chattanooga, Bob Corker? That racist "we met at the playboy mansion" ad definitely had an impact. No doubt about it.

I don't think racism was the sole reason why he lost. He was consistently losing against Corker, and wound up losing by the same margins he had lost by in opinion polls. Besides, Tennessee is a conservative-leaning state. It doesn't shock me that he lost at all.

[Varient]

And then Varient just pimped away.

(laughing at you)

Here it is Memorial day weekend,... I have a life. I am about to run out to the store for more food but thought I'd scan the boards before leaving.

LOL I read two pages of somewhat intelligent dialog,.... and then you pop on.


awwww were your feelings hurt because on a holiday weekend,.. I have better things to do than let you whine at me for my not spelling correctly?

Sorry,... Life is too short.

Just for your info,... (because you need this sort of comforting), I expect after my guests leave,.. I'll have time to come back and see what else you have whined about while I'm engaging the adults on here in more convo.


TSK.

[Superhobo]

(laughing at you)

Here it is Memorial day weekend,... I have a life. I am about to run out to the store for more food but thought I'd scan the boards before leaving.

LOL I read two pages of somewhat intelligent dialog,.... and then you pop on.


awwww were your feelings hurt because on a holiday weekend,.. I have better things to do than let you whine at me for my not spelling correctly?

Sorry,... Life is too short.

Just for your info,... (because you need this sort of comforting), I expect after my guests leave,.. I'll have time to come back and see what else you have whined about while I'm engaging the adults on here in more convo.


TSK.


I like how my one-line message inspired you to come back with this hateful little spiel. Haha. :o

[Matt]

Just some food for thought, as I notice a lot of commentary on race playing a factor in black politicans losing, what about its positive effect on Obama? He has gotten free passes from the media on a lot of things that would sink a lot of other candidates. Hell, Edwards was torn apart in 2004 for lack of experience when he had double the experience of Barack Obama where as Obama got a free pass from the press. Scandals far less than Wright sunk candidates far better than Obama yet some how a speech that did not even address the issue had the media deeming him the successor to MLK and JFK while no one questioned why he lied when the scandal broke. Do you really believe this is due to "charisma?" Barack Obama has been given a free pass by the media and obtained a lot of votes because of his skin color. Perhaps it works both ways?

[The Senator]

Just some food for thought, as I notice a lot of commentary on race playing a factor in black politicans losing, what about its positive effect on Obama? He has gotten free passes from the media on a lot of things that would sink a lot of other candidates. Hell, Edwards was torn apart in 2004 for lack of experience when he had double the experience of Barack Obama where as Obama got a free pass from the press. Scandals far less than Wright sunk candidates far better than Obama yet some how a speech that did not even address the issue had the media deeming him the successor to MLK and JFK while no one questioned why he lied when the scandal broke. Do you really believe this is due to "charisma?" Barack Obama has been given a free pass by the media and obtained a lot of votes because of his skin color. Perhaps it works both ways?

Matt, you always know how to open up a can of worms :heart:

(Of course, I do agree with you, as I've expressed my opinion on the topic before. I think many people were excited about having the first real mainstream African American candidate that they were willing to overlook many of his noticeable flaws. I don't think race is the sole factor to his success, but I think it's naive to think that it didn't have some effect in hyping his candidacy.)

[Matt]

Matt, you always know how to open up a can of worms :heart:

(Of course, I do agree with you, as I've expressed my opinion on the topic before. I think many people were excited about having the first real mainstream African American candidate that they were willing to overlook many of his noticeable flaws. I don't think race is the sole factor to his success, but I think it's naive to think that it didn't have some effect in hyping his candidacy.)

Hehe, well, whats the point of this thread if not to discuss all aspects of the race?

[EdRyder]

I think Harold Ford lost in Tennessee partly due to racism....think back in 2006. That year, Democrats regained the US Senate and regained the US House. Even the Democratic Governor of Tennessee was re-elected by a wide margin....and yet Harold Ford, a popular Democrat from the House, had wider name recognition, lost during the year of the Democrat TakeBack to mayor of Chattanooga, Bob Corker? That racist "we met at the playboy mansion" ad definitely had an impact. No doubt about it.

Certainly, that **** worked on the uninformed.
Didn't work on me ,still didn't vote for Ford.Ford was a wolf in sheeps clothing.A democrat running on a republican platform.Dont get me wrong,I partially understand the idea behind it"Tell you (red state) what you want to hear,then once I'm in office become the Democrat that I am."
Besides that,He never really had a shot.People love Bob Corker, hell I love Bob Corker.

[The Senator]

Certainly, that **** worked on the uninformed.
Didn't work on me ,still didn't vote for Ford.Ford was a wolf in sheeps clothing.A democrat running on a republican platform.Dont get me wrong,I partially understand the idea behind it"Tell you (red state) what you want to hear,then once I'm in office become the Democrat that I am."
Besides that,He never really had a shot.People love Bob Corker, hell I love Bob Corker.

I would agree with this.

I didn't really care if Ford won or not. He was basically a Republican with a 'D' next to his name. If I were to say that I supported the war in Iraq, was pro-life and supported a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, I don't think most folks would consider me a Democrat. And I think many voters in TN said, "why vote for a fake when I can have the real thing?"

That's why I feel he'd be better off serving as governor of TN. He won't have any national influence there.

[Varient]

No disrespect, I'll reply to rest of comments later, I'm little tired. Too much insomnia.



You mean the tree where the black student in question referred to it as "the white tree" to his own principal....yeah, there was no racial confrontation going on there before that at all. I wouldn't have sat near a tree labelled a "white tree". I wouldn't have been one of the caught dead playing near with the nooses either.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/WireStory?id=3638431&page=2

Understand that it should be pointed out that YOU are saying it's okay for whites to have their own place at a school where others must go?

"Racial confrontation?"

IF we were all to do as you infer,... as in avoid all areas that get staked out by a group or be the ones at fault for starting stuff,... then why have any sort of civil rights?

I'll explain in detail.

Prior to the civil rights movement, Blacks had their places and whites had theirs,.... all determined by whites.

Whites proclaimed that if blacks would simply stay in their areas and work hard and cause no trouble,.. they could have everything that whites enjoy.

"The seperate but equal" myth.

Numerous incidents where whites burned down or destroyed black businesses or communities that had done just that,.... stayed in their place and worked hard - were put up as "unfortunate incidents".

Everything that was above a certain level remained "white only" with any attempt to have those things including higher education being met with unpunished violence.

The lie was obvious. There could never be "equality" because blacks were not to be "allowed" above a certain level socially.

A black man could become a doctor, or an engineer, (strangely enough if an American Black man left the country, he could get higher education w/o too much hassle.), and rarely find work in America.

Don't argue with me, crack a history book.

Enter the civil rights movement.

THE FIRST THING that was said over and over by irritated whites was that if blacks would just "stay" in their place and work hard there would be no trouble,... that patience was needed - If blacks would only wait they would see that things would get better if they would just stop this civil rights nonsense.

Since Blacks in America had been hearing this same thing since the late 1800's It was thought that nothing would change.

Now.

On this thread, I read people saying that it is the fault of black people for the racial injustices that they may encounter. You are saying that because a black child wanted to sit in a place declared "white only" in a school he had to go to,... that HE was wrong.
HE was starting something.

I have seen three handles on this thread argue that if blacks did not seek out confrontation by going/doing where/what whites don't want them,... then there would be no racial incidents. If blacks would simply work hard and avoid all situations that could cause racial confrontations then there would be no problem.

Of course this means that if a group of whites decide to stake out an area, a job, a housing development, anything at all,... Blacks cannot be there or be at fault for causing the racial incident.

GEE.

While I understand responsibility as far as not throwing oneself into danger IE A black going to a KKK rally,.... But WHY do an entire people have to steer clear of another group or be at fault for what happens?

Why is it okay over and over for whites to do dirt and if blacks are obstructed, restricted, impeded, from having what they work hard to earn OUTSIDE of what some whites can accept, That it's OUR FAULT?

[Varient]

SentinelMind it seems you are missing the point Varient was making. Yes hard work, tenacity, ability, and intellect are determining factors in one's ability to be successful. But there are people who work against people because of their color.

In my city about two years ago a black man was found dead hanging from a tree. Yes hanging in 2006. As it turned out two white men hanged the young man because he was about to marry one of the guys' sister. They took him out to have a few beers and by the end of the night he was hanged. And he was found the next morning at about 9:00am.

In Lauderdale County MS (a couple of miles from the city I live in) at Lockheed Martin a man went on a shooting spree and killed seven people and then killed himself. He resented the fact that blacks at the factory were not placed beneath him that was in 2003. He killed 6-black people and one white person he shot several. (the shooter)His girl friend said "He was a victim(the shooter) they tried to make him get along with them black folks."

I am an example that hard work and ability overcomes circumstances but I assure that racism stares me in the face daily. Due to no fault of my own.

In the south racism is present and allowed under the surface.

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1817672&page=1%3Chttp://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1817672&page=1%3E

Don't you feel like we are going in circles?

All I keep reading are excuses for why it's okay for folk to mistreat others.

That any complaint for that mistreatment based on color is "defeatist" behavior that ensures that we will never advance.

Those blacks who have fought for what they wanted regardless of what whites have to say about it can all tell stories of the abuse that we are reading here as being what we can expect and only hold ourselves responsible for.

Scary.

Blacks have a choice:

Do and go only where NO WHITE has a real issue,... and live a life free of racial incidents,

Or strive to do or be whatever they want to,.... and understand that there will be whites who will step in the way. These whites will not be punished for getting in the way because (opinion here.)the blacks are only bringing it on themselves.


What a silly thread.

[Varient]

I like how my one-line message inspired you to come back with this hateful little spiel. Haha. :o

Hateful?

No,... surprised that on a thread with folk debating,... you come off like a child sniping at folk that won't play with you.

Whatever.

[SentinelMind]

I just want to summarize my tangent point on the whole Jena 6, I think my ideas are bit misconstrued, probably due to way I worded it. I'm not saying anyone was wrong for choosing to sit under the tree...its public property on school grounds and you can pretty much go anywhere you want. I'm just saying getting in confrontation with schoolyard racists is not the productive way to spend your time and I was arguing the only reason the tree was even an issue to students was simply because of the territorial racist boundaries it represents, it had no value beyond that, which is why the school even cut it down. I don't see the point in getting in territorial wars with schoolyard bullies who won't be doing anything with their lives afterwards. I stayed away from that crap when I was in middle/high school. "Don't sit at this lunch table with those guys"..."don't sit around the cool bus seats"....."you can't hang with them, you ain't part of the cliche"...etc...all that foolishness. If those are the type of things you want to fight over, ...go ahead, you have a right to. Furthermore, I wasn't really trying to make any big point over this issue, I was initially responding to the claim that the tree was frequented by blacks who were "minding own business",..I was pointing out the racial tension that existed near that tree before the incident.

I'm all for to getting a lucrative job, getting access to public facilities, owning stock, owning company, legally own property....etc...etc...
To me, those rewards are worth fighting for. The best way to succeed in life is picking and choosing your battles, not just fighting for the sake of it.

[SentinelMind]

Just some food for thought, as I notice a lot of commentary on race playing a factor in black politicans losing, what about its positive effect on Obama? He has gotten free passes from the media on a lot of things that would sink a lot of other candidates. Hell, Edwards was torn apart in 2004 for lack of experience when he had double the experience of Barack Obama where as Obama got a free pass from the press. Scandals far less than Wright sunk candidates far better than Obama yet some how a speech that did not even address the issue had the media deeming him the successor to MLK and JFK while no one questioned why he lied when the scandal broke. Do you really believe this is due to "charisma?" Barack Obama has been given a free pass by the media and obtained a lot of votes because of his skin color. Perhaps it works both ways?


I don't really understand this argument....race didn't help Al Sharpton, barely helped Jesse Jackson, Alan Keyes...yeah people want to be associated with the first black <insert> . The media would have been a shill to any Democrat with star power. Do you think the media wanted to spurn the potential first Hispanic Presidential candidate, Bill Richardson? He didn't get much time because he didn't have charisma, the star power. Obama had the charisma, speaking abilities to capture everyone's attention....Obama is on another level of charisma than John Edwards....and certainly Dodd/Richardson/Biden...which is why he stood out. I think its more than than simply race.

Look at Bill Clinton...he had a sex scandal break out during the campaign and he handled it in a way most politicians couldn't, which is why he was able to move forward. I think its the way you handle it does matter.

[Matt]

I don't really understand this argument....race didn't help Al Sharpton, barely helped Jesse Jackson, Alan Keyes...yeah people want to be associated with the first black <insert> . The media would have been a shill to any Democrat with star power. Do you think the media wanted to spurn the potential first Hispanic Presidential candidate, Bill Richardson? He didn't get much time because he didn't have charisma, the star power. Obama had the charisma, speaking abilities to capture everyone's attention....Obama is on another level of charisma than John Edwards....and certainly Dodd/Richardson/Biden...which is why he stood out. I think its more than than simply race.

No one ever saw Jackson, Keyes, Sharpton, or Richardson as real candidates. Even while Jackson exceeded expectations, he was never a contender for anything but third place. Obama was the first mainstream African American candidate for the presidency. I don't really see how such a thing is debatable. I also do not see how you can assert that the media would've given "any Democrat" a free pass. They certainly did not give Hillary one at ANY point, even before Obama entered the race. She may have been considered the persumed nominee by some, but only because polls indicated as much.

And it is not a matter of standing out, it is a matter of the media giving him free passes on issues that are bigger than issues that have sunk numerous candidates in the past.


Look at Bill Clinton...he had a sex scandal break out during the campaign and he handled it in a way most politicians couldn't, which is why he was able to move forward. I think its the way you handle it does matter.

Bill Clinton's sex scandal was during a re-election campaign. Hardly the same.

[Superhobo]

Hateful?

No,... surprised that on a thread with folk debating,... you come off like a child sniping at folk that won't play with you.

Whatever.


Indeed. :whatever:

[Tag279]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag279 http://forums.superherohype.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=14874766#post14874766)
Has CT ever had a black govenor or US senator? How many predominantly Black districts are in the state?

Has a black person ever run for any of those offices I just mentioned?

If not why if they did why did they not win?

There is no competition for power and influence so therefore the tensions are not as apparent.

The racial separations appear to be socioeconomic and it allows detatchment. In my state the white power brokers are dying out and the black population is vieng for power based on the majority.

Things are begining to change and blacks in more and more parts of my state. when something begins to die it fights for life.

One thing I do want to mention (and I'm only using your post as a jumping off point, not as the reason why I'm writing this) is that you cannot blame the loss of a black politician in many states on racism or some other non-political motive.

JMan my point was not what you gleened from above. I was trying to illustrate to BL that it easier for a place to appear progressive when a given group does not make up a percentage of the population to influence elections.

CT does not have the racial confrontations of other states because blacks are outnumbered and the education level is relatively high.

[The Senator]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag279 http://forums.superherohype.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=14874766#post14874766)
Has CT ever had a black govenor or US senator? How many predominantly Black districts are in the state?

Has a black person ever run for any of those offices I just mentioned?

If not why if they did why did they not win?

There is no competition for power and influence so therefore the tensions are not as apparent.

The racial separations appear to be socioeconomic and it allows detatchment. In my state the white power brokers are dying out and the black population is vieng for power based on the majority.

Things are begining to change and blacks in more and more parts of my state. when something begins to die it fights for life.

One thing I do want to mention (and I'm only using your post as a jumping off point, not as the reason why I'm writing this) is that you cannot blame the loss of a black politician in many states on racism or some other non-political motive.

JMan my point was not what you gleened from above. I was trying to illustrate to BL that it easier for a place to appear progressive when a given group does not make up a percentage of the population to influence elections.

CT does not have the racial confrontations of other states because blacks are outnumbered and the education level is relatively high.

Um... that's why I said my point wasn't a direct response to your post...

[Varient]

I just want to summarize my tangent point on the whole Jena 6, I think my ideas are bit misconstrued, probably due to way I worded it. I'm not saying anyone was wrong for choosing to sit under the tree...its public property on school grounds and you can pretty much go anywhere you want. I'm just saying getting in confrontation with schoolyard racists is not the productive way to spend your time and I was arguing the only reason the tree was even an issue to students was simply because of the territorial racist boundaries it represents, it had no value beyond that, which is why the school even cut it down. I don't see the point in getting in territorial wars with schoolyard bullies who won't be doing anything with their lives afterwards. I stayed away from that crap when I was in middle/high school. "Don't sit at this lunch table with those guys"..."don't sit around the cool bus seats"....."you can't hang with them, you ain't part of the cliche"...etc...all that foolishness. If those are the type of things you want to fight over, ...go ahead, you have a right to. Furthermore, I wasn't really trying to make any big point over this issue, I was initially responding to the claim that the tree was frequented by blacks who were "minding own business",..I was pointing out the racial tension that existed near that tree before the incident.

I'm all for to getting a lucrative job, getting access to public facilities, owning stock, owning company, legally own property....etc...etc...
To me, those rewards are worth fighting for. The best way to succeed in life is picking and choosing your battles, not just fighting for the sake of it.


I think the main point that keeps dragging me back has been the premise has been put forth that blacks go looking for this stuff.

Correction: The blacks who run into racist situations that force them to fight for what they work for go looking for this stuff.

My main malfunction with BL for not being able to relate and you believing that any kind of response to such is defeatist in nature is that the majority of blacks who never rise above lower middle class for the most part toe that line and just put their heads down and work harder.

That's great within the framework of running in place.

But if you want more you have no choice but to go to those places/situations/occupations where some ignorant so and so has to step forward and protest your presence.

All great and wonderful to choose your battles,.. but in this case most battles are chosen for you.

Peace.

[Superhobo]

I think the main point that keeps dragging me back has been the premise has been put forth that blacks go looking for this stuff.

Correction: The blacks who run into racist situations that force them to fight for what they work for go looking for this stuff.

My main malfunction with BL for not being able to relate and you believing that any kind of response to such is defeatist in nature is that the majority of blacks who never rise above lower middle class for the most part toe that line and just put their heads down and work harder.

That's great within the framework of running in place.

But if you want more you have no choice but to go to those places/situations/occupations where some ignorant so and so has to step forward and protest your presence.

All great and wonderful to choose your battles,.. but in this case most battles are chosen for you.

Peace.


You sound like a tool. Listen, it's obvious this is something you care very deeply about, and that's great. That's awesome, but making assumptions about other people based on prior misconceptions about them and their writing isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

You are, for lack of anything more eloquent, putting words into his mouth.




And I'm referring to BL here, just so we're, y'know, clear.

[Arach Knight]

Do you really believe this is due to "charisma?" Barack Obama has been given a free pass by the media and obtained a lot of votes because of his skin color. Perhaps it works both ways?

That is an interesting thought...Obama....the media...and his skin color. You mean the same media (partricularly those involved with the Clinton campaign) that portrayed Obama as a darker skinned African American, for the purposes of subconcious association (and there is a subconcious disdain in this country for darker skinned Blacks, even among Black people).

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/2309945448_d1b455e3b5_o.png
Do you really believe that the media is giving Obama a pass because he is Black? Then perhaps you should see what the media (Fox) has done to destroy his image.

ouKJixL--ms

Yep...the media just loves to give Barack Obama a pass....a pass on fairness that is.

"A lie can travel half way around the world, while the truth is still putting on its shoes."
-Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens

[BlackLantern]

so MSNBC, CNN, and the network news outlets are treating Obama SO fair??? I don't watch any cable news with any regularity but it seems like Fox News gets singled out all the time....

[Varient]

That is an interesting thought...Obama....the media...and his skin color. You mean the same media (partricularly those involved with the Clinton campaign) that portrayed Obama as a darker skinned African American, for the purposes of subconcious association (and there is a subconcious disdain in this country for darker skinned Blacks, even among Black people).

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/2309945448_d1b455e3b5_o.png
Do you really believe that the media is giving Obama a pass because he is Black? Then perhaps you should see what the media (Fox) has done to destroy his image.

watch?v=ouKJixL--ms

Yep...the media just loves to give Barack Obama a pass....a pass on fairness that is.

"A lie can travel half way around the world, while the truth is still putting on its shoes."
-Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens

(chuckle)
Nothing new here,... even when it's pointed out - the clinton camp would say something to the effect of "alls fair".

[Arach Knight]

Fox news casters always talk about "fair and balanced" and then some how contradict that with just about every news related program they have. They have created one expectation then delivered something else. That is why they are singled out. But for that matter, most news channels report with a pretty heavy bias.

[Varient]

:word:Fox news casters always talk about "fair and balanced" and then some how contradict that with just about every news related program they have. They have created one expectation then delivered something else. That is why they are singled out. But for that matter, most news channels report with a pretty heavy bias.

duh.:word:

[BlackLantern]

well the media scene in general, from TV to news to films, have a very liberal tilt....so when someone comes along who doesn't parrot that viewpoint I guess it sticks out a lot more....

[Varient]

I remember when OJ was in the news,...
Every magazine and Newspaper showed his police pictures were tweaked to look more sinister,... they darkened them,... shaded around the eyes, made him look real criminal.

A "Liberal" news source (At the time - Newsweek)
Showed an unaltered picture,.. forcing Time Magazine to pull the issue off the shelves and reprint with a different picture.

http://forums.superherohype.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5288&stc=1&d=1211908353

go figure.

[Arach Knight]

That is not the point. The point is that Matt attempted to say that perhaps racial bias works both ways (in favor of and against) for political candidates. He then attempted to merge opinion with reality and by my measure, was unsuccessful. He said that race was not really a factor in the failure of most political candidates. He said that Obama was given a free pass by the media. When questioned as to why no other Black presidential candiates were given the same free pass (Sharpton and Jackson) he said that they were never viewed as serious contenders, unlike Obama.

So I proceeded to correct Mr. Matthew's views on just how fair the media has been to Obama, particularly in the fictional category of race (a Western invention. The rest of the world once operated on ethnicity/culture...a point I proved earlier in the thread). I'm not trying to be a jerk, condescending or arrogant. I just feel like this debate has gone from justified opinion (where my life has me, versus where your life has led me) to an illicit abuse of facts. A gross misrepresentation of reality. From somebody nearly blaming the Jena 6 for their own woe (though he reneged and restated his point). I just couldn't sit back and observe that without commenting.

[Varient]

That is not the point. The point is that Matt attempted to say that perhaps racial bias works both ways (in favor of and against) for political candidates. He then attempted to merge opinion with reality and by my measure, was unsuccessful. He said that race was not really a factor in the failure of most political candidates. He said that Obama was given a free pass by the media. When questioned as to why no other Black presidential candiates were given the same free pass (Sharpton and Jackson) he said that they were never viewed as serious contenders, unlike Obama.

So I proceeded to correct Mr. Matthew's views on just how fair the media has been to Obama, particularly in the fictional category of race (a Western invention. The rest of the world once operated on ethnicity/culture...a point I proved earlier in the thread). I'm not trying to be a jerk, condescending or arrogant. I just feel like this debate has gone from justified opinion (where my life has me, versus where your life has led me) to an illicit abuse of facts. A gross misrepresentation of reality. From somebody nearly blaming the Jena 6 for their own woe (though he reneged and restated his point). I just couldn't sit back and observe that without commenting.

Oh I understood and was past your point posts ago.

I'm just pointing out that it's not a bias because of liberals,.. quite the contrary.

Conservatives seem to exist in a state of denial,... just like liberals appear to exist in touchy-feely land.

Both are flawed in my view because in their own ways,.. both are too rigid.

Considering the amount of minuate(sp) brought up on Obama,.. you'd have to be blind to say he gets a free pass by the media - heck his smoking was a media event,... anyone who he has any kind of contact who is flawed is media news, every mispoken word is held to him whether he said it or not.

Knowing what we know now,... if GW Bush had had THIS much media attention he'd not made it to president the first time.

Peace.

[Arach Knight]

My bad, my brother. I was directing that toward Black Lantern. I should have quoted him. I know that you and I are very much on the same page.

[The Senator]

That is not the point. The point is that Matt attempted to say that perhaps racial bias works both ways (in favor of and against) for political candidates. He then attempted to merge opinion with reality and by my measure, was unsuccessful. He said that race was not really a factor in the failure of most political candidates. He said that Obama was given a free pass by the media. When questioned as to why no other Black presidential candiates were given the same free pass (Sharpton and Jackson) he said that they were never viewed as serious contenders, unlike Obama.

I think there is considerable media bias on both sides, especially over the issue of race. It's undeniable that Obama was hyped because he could be the first black president-- this hype started the night of the convention in 2004, when one pundit said during his analysis that Obama could be the first African American in the White House. When Obama announced his intention to run, the same rhetoric was repeated. And in the process, somewhere, for whatever reason, Obama's lack of experience was virtually ignored until much later in the campaign. Not at the beginning, like Edwards, who was slaughtered by the media for running in 2004 without having completed a full term in office. Obama had a third of the experience Edwards had when he announced his plans to run for office, yet that factor was virtually ignored. I can't say race was the only factor in being over-hyped, but I think it played a huge factor.

And I do think Obama is a candidate unlike Sharpton or Jackson, who ran downright awful campaigns and had zero grasp on the issues. No one took them seriously. Hell, they weren't politicians, they were reverends when they announced their intentions to run. Obama was a Senator and well-known and respected nationwide. I think Obama's national status and 'sensible' positions on the issues saved him from a negative media backlash.

[Superhobo]

well the media scene in general, from TV to news to films, have a very liberal tilt....so when someone comes along who doesn't parrot that viewpoint I guess it sticks out a lot more....

You know, we covered this 'liberal bias' in the media in another thread a couple of threads down. Check that out, it might interest you.

[Midnyte_Sun]

That is an interesting thought...Obama....the media...and his skin color. You mean the same media (partricularly those involved with the Clinton campaign) that portrayed Obama as a darker skinned African American, for the purposes of subconcious association (and there is a subconcious disdain in this country for darker skinned Blacks, even among Black people).

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/2309945448_d1b455e3b5_o.png
Do you really believe that the media is giving Obama a pass because he is Black? Then perhaps you should see what the media (Fox) has done to destroy his image.

ouKJixL--ms

Yep...the media just loves to give Barack Obama a pass....a pass on fairness that is.

"A lie can travel half way around the world, while the truth is still putting on its shoes."
-Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens

Thats just sickening.

[Arach Knight]

Don't let it jade you. The worst thing to do, is to allow such sanguine matters to create a dour mood. I merely want to open the eyes of those who are otherwise asleep to the horrors of this world. But it by no means indicates that such is all there is to this world. It is just better to be vigilant like a guard dog than to be an Ostrich who would rather bury its head to the reality of life.

[SentinelMind]

No one ever saw Jackson, Keyes, Sharpton, or Richardson as real candidates. Even while Jackson exceeded expectations, he was never a contender for anything but third place. Obama was the first mainstream African American candidate for the presidency. I don't really see how such a thing is debatable. I also do not see how you can assert that the media would've given "any Democrat" a free pass. They certainly did not give Hillary one at ANY point, even before Obama entered the race. She may have been considered the persumed nominee by some, but only because polls indicated as much.

Why was Richardson not seen as a real candidate? How was John Kerry, a stale, 20-year US Senator from Massachussets seen as a real candidate...shoot....even Dick Gephardt in 2000.....but Bill Richardson...with comparable if not better experience, not seen as a real candidate? He couldn't stand out, partly because he didn't excite anyone. In this election, it was going to be Hillary Clinton................verse the anti-Hillary Clinton. Richardson, an experienced Department secretary under Clinton wasn't going to break that barrier. He didn't have that much charisma, stage presence, energy, excitement....that's why he wasn't a real candidate. An experienced Hispanic Presidential candidate, ...and the media overlooked him....because he was boring. Alan Keyes entered the GOP nomination,...in 2000, a guy who's a real conservative....his race did squat for him.


And it is not a matter of standing out, it is a matter of the media giving him free passes on issues that are bigger than issues that have sunk numerous candidates in the past.



Bill Clinton's sex scandal was during a re-election campaign. Hardly the same.

Bill Clinton had sex scandals break out during 1992 election, Gennifer Flowers came out and accused him of having an affair. That was only first of a pile of sex scandals. How was he able to push that aside, when similar candidates couldn't push aside smaller scandals. His charisma, his strategy, the way he carried himself allowed people to want to give him the benefit of the doubt. Smaller scandals destroyed other presidential candidates.

While I agree the media (particularly MSNBC) has been throwing a parade for Barack Obama, I don't think the net impact of his race has helped him so much as Matt would have you believe. I really think any Democrat who had been exciting, delivered great speeches, populist, leftist that filled the anti-Hillary void would have been given a parade by the media.

[SentinelMind]

A gross misrepresentation of reality. From somebody nearly blaming the Jena 6 for their own woe (though he reneged and restated his point). I just couldn't sit back and observe that without commenting.

Ok, I just want to reiterate is what bothers me is when people get into stupid confrontations with other people and then use race and cries of racism to protect their stupidity. It dissolves the potency of real racism in this country when it happens, people roll their eyes.

The Duke Lacrosse case.....my gut instinct is that the drunk guys probably sexually groped the stripper, which can't be proven....but when the stripper went around claiming she was raped, ruining the reputation of those players, all these civil rights groups came around to her rescue....but she kept changing her story, and she had a past of lying about sexual adventures. It hurts the civil rights movement when cries of racism is used to defend these stupid conflicts, attempts to exploit power and control over others. That's what this is all about...you want to control your opponent, control others, its not about "morality",.."paying for the crime". The stripper wanted to control the college students she was entertaining, probably did and said things to her that she didn't like and so she made an elaborate story about them.

My opinion of Jena 6 is somewhat similar....race riots left and right in that town. I'm suppose to roll over bed, praying for black youths who got into fist fights over getting in a stupid party, fighting grown men, beating one guy to the point that he was on the floor unconcscious for hours, and I'm suppose to get up and march. Civil rights groups were protesting that the youths should be freed. Freed? For what? Being idiots? The charges should be dropped because they didn't get the last laugh?

When I see that stuff on television, and people crying racism when they get into these stupid, egotistical tit-for-tats that doesn't help blacks move forward, it bothers me.

[Tag279]

Ok, I just want to reiterate is what bothers me is when people get into stupid confrontations with other people and then use race and cries of racism to protect their stupidity. It dissolves the potency of real racism in this country when it happens, people roll their eyes.

The Duke Lacrosse case.....my gut instinct is that the drunk guys probably sexually groped the stripper, which can't be proven....but when the stripper went around claiming she was raped, ruining the reputation of those players, all these civil rights groups came around to her rescue....but she kept changing her story, and she had a past of lying about sexual adventures. It hurts the civil rights movement when cries of racism is used to defend these stupid conflicts, attempts to exploit power and control over others. That's what this is all about...you want to control your opponent, control others, its not about "morality",.."paying for the crime". The stripper wanted to control the college students she was entertaining, probably did and said things to her that she didn't like and so she made an elaborate story about them.

A lot of blacks aound the country thought her story sounded bogus from jump-street. I agree Al howled at the moon on this one.

My opinion of Jena 6 is somewhat similar....race riots left and right in that town. I'm suppose to roll over bed, praying for black youths who got into fist fights over getting in a stupid party, fighting grown men, beating one guy to the point that he was on the floor unconcscious for hours, and I'm suppose to get up and march. Civil rights groups were protesting that the youths should be freed. Freed? For what? Being idiots? The charges should be dropped because they didn't get the last laugh?

Jena started with nooses the DA told the black students at that HS he could end their lives with the stroke of a pen in the general assembly. How could one not see the absurdity of a "white tree?" The black kids had a shotgun pulled on them at a convinience store the night before the school fight.

Do you not have any idea the anger and negative feelings a noose generates in most black people? You might say the black students went looking for trouble asking the principal about the tree.

But my question is, is it not a sad state of affairs that a black student felt that he had to ask? What does that say about the state of affairs of race relations in Jena? It appears that as long as a black person knows their place it's okay..but step out of the box and we'll knock you down a few rungs.

When I see that stuff on television, and people crying racism when they get into these stupid, egotistical tit-for-tats that doesn't help blacks move forward, it bothers me.

Well should we just keep our mouths shut and hope that they change their ways? And because we don't sit and take it we are not being helped? :whatever:

[Arach Knight]

Exactly my point. It is about the fact that those sorts of things should not be a problem in todays society. But people would prefer to just look the other way. It's like the film Fight Club, in which Tyler Durden remarks on people going too far with trying to be non-confrontational. They would attempt passive-aggression at best, but they usually prefer to just not rock the boat. That is not how you get ahead in this world. I believe the old saying is "the squeaky cog gets the oil."

[SentinelMind]

Well should we just keep our mouths shut and hope that they change their ways? And because we don't sit and take it we are not being helped? :whatever:

That is hysterical. You're trying to create a rationalization for the black youths criminal and violent behavior. "Society is to blame for my crime". I don't believe in that crap. There is no reason for you and your friends to sit there and PLOT jumping a guy from behind and beating him to a bloody unconscious state. No reason what so ever. Fighting for self-defense is one thing....fighting to take out a guy you don't like ISN'T one of them.

That's how all violent behaviors escalate. Must I sound like the ending of Batman Begins? One person takes out a knife....the other takes out a gun...the next guy jumps the others with his friends. Yeah, one guy took out a gun....he was being followed by friends who wanted to fight there way into a party. Violent escalation. I'm not sympathetic to that type of behavior, stupid street warfare. And prosecutors should prosecute people based on what they did, based on the cold facts in front of them because its in society's interest to get rid of this type of violent, destructive behavior off the streets. You want the prosecution and police to look the other way because of previous, unrelated racial incidents? "Oh, well...yeah, he did beat the guy to a bloody pulp.....but what about that noose on a tree a couple of days back,...let's drop the case" . You're not treating the culprits as individuals, you're treating people as a collective mob and obscuring the ability to hand down justice. Don't reward that type of decadent behavior.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Don't let it jade you. The worst thing to do, is to allow such sanguine matters to create a dour mood. I merely want to open the eyes of those who are otherwise asleep to the horrors of this world. But it by no means indicates that such is all there is to this world. It is just better to be vigilant like a guard dog than to be an Ostrich who would rather bury its head to the reality of life.

That video with Fox news reminds me of that Documentary / Fake Trailer created about Middle Eastern people and how they're portrayed in the US:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi1ZNEjEarw

[ForestAflame]

That is hysterical. You're trying to create a rationalization for the black youths criminal and violent behavior. "Society is to blame for my crime". I don't believe in that crap. There is no reason for you and your friends to sit there and PLOT jumping a guy from behind and beating him to a bloody unconscious state. No reason what so ever. Fighting for self-defense is one thing....fighting to take out a guy you don't like ISN'T one of them.



Quite frankly...the guy deserved it. :o

The black youth, however, did not deserve the attempted murder charge.

[BlackLantern]

attempted murder NO.....assault YES....

[Tag279]

That is hysterical. You're trying to create a rationalization for the black youths criminal and violent behavior. "Society is to blame for my crime". I don't believe in that crap. There is no reason for you and your friends to sit there and PLOT jumping a guy from behind and beating him to a bloody unconscious state. No reason what so ever. Fighting for self-defense is one thing....fighting to take out a guy you don't like ISN'T one of them. SentinelMind

They did not plot to beat the guy up the guy called him the N-word in mocking him about the incident that happened the night before. So bell slugged him. And then the melee started.

[The Senator]

Everyone involved in that instance deserved to be charged. However, the teens involved in that instance did not deserve an attempted murder charge. That is quite insane.

[Varient]

Meh.

The more things change - the more things stay the same.

Blacks are overcharged in criminal cases,... there is too much obtainable evidence to ignore that.

It's getting better,... but it's still happening.

V.

[BlackLantern]

There are still a ton of people, in every part of the country, who are "afraid" of black people....How to undo that is the question? just wait for all the old bigots who raised their families with that fear to die off??

[Tag279]

There are still a ton of people, in every part of the country, who are "afraid" of black people....How to undo that is the question? just wait for all the old bigots who raised their families with that fear to die off??

Yes and work individually and collectively to dispell stereotypes. The Old bigots will not change for the most part but we have to do our best to teach our children and grandchildren that racism is ignorance.

[Arach Knight]

That solution does not work. Just because the older bigots and racist will eventually pass from this earth, does not mean that their legacy of ignorance and hate will suddenly cease. If that were the case, then neo-nazis would not rise up in modern society. There would not be new and young members of the KKK. You would not have young girls like the members of the hate speech band, Prussian Blue, continuing these misguided philosophies.

[SoulManX]

That solution does not work. Just because the older bigots and racist will eventually pass from this earth, does not mean that their legacy of ignorance and hate will suddenly cease. If that were the case, then neo-nazis would not rise up in modern society. There would not be new and young members of the KKK. You would not have young girls like the members of the hate speech band, Prussian Blue, continuing these misguided philosophies.

I agree with this:o

[Tag279]

That solution does not work. Just because the older bigots and racist will eventually pass from this earth, does not mean that their legacy of ignorance and hate will suddenly cease. If that were the case, then neo-nazis would not rise up in modern society. There would not be new and young members of the KKK. You would not have young girls like the members of the hate speech band, Prussian Blue, continuing these misguided philosophies.

I realize the legacy of bigotry and racism will still be present as the old bigots die off. I'm not that stupid. :cwink:

My point is the root of prejuduce and bigotry is ignorance. The way to combat ignorance is with knowledge.

I was a Line Firefighter for 5-years and I have been a Fire Inspector for six years and counting. When I was a FF we worked 24-hours on and 48-hours off. On my off days I had a side job in the JC Penny mens department.

There was a guy hat I worked with that was taught to be racist. His father and grand parents were bigots; they had some real negative perceptions of black people.

In working together he found that I was not stupid, illiterate, un-principled, angry, or violent. He found that I was not too different from him.

He has told me on more than one occasion that he has found more and more through his own experiences that the negative perceptions and beliefs about black people that were held by some of his family were wrong. And that it is hard to go against with what he has been taught. H has also said that he would do his best not let that type of thinking become part of his children.

It comes down to what we teach our children. We may not be able to do away with racism but maybe we can narrow the racial divide.

[Sloth7d]

I've been pulled over at least 5 times by cops, who, in the end, had to let me go because I didn't do anything wrong.

[Sloth7d]

And after reading through a lot of this, I can see the discussion has strayed very far from being pulled over. I'm always late to the game.

[Hypestyle]

...ingorance is a poison and knowledge will nourish...
Kris Parker, 1987

[Tag279]

Hype nice quote :word:

[Arach Knight]

And after reading through a lot of this, I can see the discussion has strayed very far from being pulled over. I'm always late to the game.

You can never be too late. Your contribution wasn't in line with the current aspect of the topic, but it most certainly was on topic.

[Tron5000]

I hate everybody equally. I'm an equal opportunity hater.

[Varient]

Topic: Foley.

"Retired Judge Larry Irving had been the mediator for awhile now. He even attended every day of the trial as a spectator.

I sat in and watched a bit of Mansker’s testimony and Mansker was horrible. Foley’s attorney, Harry Levine, is a “heavy-hitter” around these parts and was just working him on the stand.

The local opinion was strongly against Mansker. The public felt that he was way out of line, and thus the settlement is no surprise. We’ll know in the coming weeks (if now days), how much the settlement is for, but I’m guessing it’s somewhere in the 10-15m range.

Finally, Mansker is still working as a cop in Coronado and is still on the streets. No, he hasn’t been fired. That is the most unbelievable part to this story."


I could chew rocks,....

[Varient]

Topic: Foley.

"Retired Judge Larry Irving had been the mediator for awhile now. He even attended every day of the trial as a spectator.

I sat in and watched a bit of Mansker’s testimony and Mansker was horrible. Foley’s attorney, Harry Levine, is a “heavy-hitter” around these parts and was just working him on the stand.

The local opinion was strongly against Mansker. The public felt that he was way out of line, and thus the settlement is no surprise. We’ll know in the coming weeks (if now days), how much the settlement is for, but I’m guessing it’s somewhere in the 10-15m range.

Finally, Mansker is still working as a cop in Coronado and is still on the streets. No, he hasn’t been fired. That is the most unbelievable part to this story."


I could chew rocks,....

[moraldeficiency]

I came across this on slate and it made some good points. It's by saletan and I find his logic hit or miss but when I do feel like this emposed banning to be a kinda scary thing.

http://www.slate.com/id/2196397/

Food Apartheid
Banning fast food in poor neighborhoods.
By William Saletan
Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008, at 8:21 AM ET

A cheeseburger
The war on fat has just crossed a major red line. The Los Angeles City Council has passed an ordinance prohibiting construction of new fast-food restaurants in a 32-square-mile area inhabited by 500,000 low-income people.

We're not talking anymore about preaching diet and exercise, disclosing calorie counts, or restricting sodas in schools. We're talking about banning the sale of food to adults. Treating French fries like cigarettes or liquor. I didn't think this would happen in the United States anytime soon. I was wrong.

The mayor hasn't yet signed the ordinance, but he probably will, since it passed unanimously. It doesn't affect existing restaurants, and initially it will impose only a one-year moratorium. But that period is likely to be extended to two years or more, and the prohibition's sponsor hopes to make it permanent.


What we're looking at, essentially, is the beginning of food zoning. Liquor and cigarette sales are already zoned. You can't sell booze here; you can't sell smokes there. Each city makes its own rules, block by block. Proponents of the L.A. ordinance see it as the logical next step. Fast food is bad for you, just as drinking or smoking is, they argue. Community Coalition, a local activist group, promotes the moratorium as a sequel to its crackdown on alcohol merchants, scummy motels, and other "nuisance businesses." An L.A. councilman says the ordinance makes sense because it's "not too different to how we regulate liquor stores."

A few other cities and towns have zoned restaurants for economic, environmental, or aesthetic reasons. But L.A. appears to be the first to do it for health reasons. Last year, a public-interest law group at Johns Hopkins outlined the rationale: "Given the significance of the obesity epidemic in the United States and the scientific evidence and legal basis supporting the zoning of fast food outlets, municipalities have an effective, yet untried, tool to address obesity in their communities."

I assumed this idea would go nowhere because we Americans don't like government restrictions on what we eat. You can nag us. You can regulate what our kids eat in school. But you'll get our burgers when you pry them from our cold, dead hands.

How did the L.A. City Council get around this resistance? By spinning the moratorium as a way to create more food choices, not fewer. And by depicting poor people, like children, as less capable of free choice.

Start with the press release (PDF) issued a week ago by the moratorium's sponsor, Councilwoman Jan Perry. Its subhead says the ordinance will "help spur the development of diverse food choices." In the second paragraph, Perry declares,

This ordinance is in no way attempting to tell people what to eat but rather responding to the need to attract sit-down restaurants, full service grocery stores, and healthy food alternatives. Ultimately, this ordinance is about providing choices—something that is currently lacking in our community.

How does blocking new fast-food outlets provide more choices? It helps local officials "attract grocery stores and restaurants to the area, by preserving existing land for these uses," says the release. And why does the moratorium apply only to the poor part of town, around South-Central L.A.? A fellow council member explains: "The over concentration of fast food restaurants in conjunction with the lack of grocery stores places these communities in a poor situation to locate a variety of food and fresh food." Supporters of the moratorium call this state of affairs "food apartheid."

It's an odd slogan. As the encyclopedia Africana notes, apartheid was a racially discriminatory policy "enforced by white minority governments." Opening a McDonald's in South-Central L.A. is not government-enforced racial discrimination. But telling McDonald's it can open franchises only in the white part of town—what do you call that?

And what about the argument that people in South-Central need the government to block unhealthy food options because they're "in a poor situation" to locate better choices? This is the argument normally made for restricting children's food options at school—that they're more dependent and vulnerable than the rest of us. How do you feel about treating poor people like children?

It's true that food options in low-income neighborhoods are, on average, worse than the options in wealthier neighborhoods. But restricting options in low-income neighborhoods is a disturbingly paternalistic way of solving the problem. And the helplessness attributed to poor people is exaggerated. "You try to get a salad within 20 minutes of our location; it's virtually impossible," says the Community Coalition's executive director. Really? The coalition's headquarters is at 8101 S. Vermont Ave. A quick Google search shows, among other outlets, a Jack-in-the-Box six blocks away. They have salads. Not the world's greatest salads, but not as bad as a government that tells you whose salad you can eat.

Already, the majority leader of New York's city council wants to adopt food zoning, and several cities have phoned L.A.'s planning department to request copies of the ordinance. Hey, I'm all for better food in impoverished neighborhoods. Incentives for grocery stores are a great idea. But telling certain kinds of restaurants that they can't serve certain kinds of people is just plain wrong, even when you think it's for their own good.