Discussion: Healthcare

[Malice]

This along with cap and trade are some of the dumbest things I have seen in awhile.

Noone is saying Healthcare doesn't need work.
The US's Healthcare is the best in the world. That does not mean, our coverage is the best or its too damn expensive....

GO AFTER THE DEFICIENCIES...NOT THE PROFICIENCY

Go after Tort reform....amongst other things (I have heard em a 100 times, but they are eluding me)

To me its dumb to redesign the entire car, when a few parts go bad...fix the parts...

[Hobodeluxe]

If there is a "Public Option", can I opt out of paying for it through my taxes?

yeah if you choose to keep what you have then you shouldn't pay anything unless you make over a million a year(household). and then it will be a 5.4% increase.

over 350k sees a 1% increase.

or at least that's what it was a few days ago. I don't think any of that changed with the compromise they made today.

[chaseter]

Making someone pay $54,000 a year extra, on top of other taxes, that makes 1 million is stupid. Punishing the succesful and rewarding failure is one of the most stupid mentalities to have and this government is pushing that metality full steam ahead.

[BlackestNight]

Never mind

[chaseter]

If there is a "Public Option", can I opt out of paying for it through my taxes?
No. If that were so, then all the people with healthcare wouldn't want to pay additional taxes to be put on crappy government healthcare, especially the wealthy. The wealthy are going to be taxed the highest to pay for this crap so more than likely, they will be paying additional taxes for government healthcare and then keeping their own healthcare plan. Which, is extremely stupid on our government's behalf.

[Hobodeluxe]

Making someone pay $54,000 a year extra, on top of other taxes, that makes 1 million is stupid. Punishing the succesful and rewarding failure is one of the most stupid mentalities to have and this government is pushing that metality full steam ahead.


you do realize that the top tax rate is the lowest it's ever been and has been at that rate for a while now right? sorry but the privilege of living in the land of plenty and reaping it's bounty isn't free. You pay back into the society that has enabled you to make that money. it's infrastructure,it's defense and it's general welfare.

[Malice]

you do realize that the top tax rate is the lowest it's ever been and has been at that rate for a while now right? sorry but the privilege of living in the land of plenty and reaping it's bounty isn't free. You pay back into the society that has enabled you to make that money. it's infrastructure,it's defense and it's general welfare.

Welfare has its limits ...and frankly...I have had my limits with welfare.

Tax the rich more, they will start leaving, and remember, the rich are the ones that employ people. That is the truth of the matter.

Look at New York and California...people with money are leaving left and right to go places that have lower taxes...

Why not actually put together a HelthCare bill that is not astinine and actually does something other than bankrupt the country.

[chaseter]

you do realize that the top tax rate is the lowest it's ever been and has been at that rate for a while now right? sorry but the privilege of living in the land of plenty and reaping it's bounty isn't free. You pay back into the society that has enabled you to make that money. it's infrastructure,it's defense and it's general welfare.
So doing nothing and reaping benefits from the wealthy is the American way? Is it the American dream to come to this country, not have a job, have 14 kids, and live off of welfare and free handouts:huh:

The top tax rate has been lowered by Bush, it will be raised now that Obama is on a spending spree and wanting the wealthy to pay for his handout programs.

It is fine to have an adjusted tax rate per income level. That pays for defense and infrastructure. But, mega taxing the wealthy/succesful to pay for programs that give to the poor only enables that behavior. Not everyone can be succesful, not everyone can be rich, not everyone can own a house. If you tax to death the wealthy, they will leave and the wealthy are who employ people.

[Hobodeluxe]

okay where do you guys get the "doing nothing" and "living off the rich" ideology at?
it's a symbiotic relationship. they need workers and customers. they don't create that money themselves. they depend on the sweat of others. so in essence don't they leech off us? and really. it's not the end of the world. they had a good ride under Bush but the time has come to pay the bills. taking back his tax cuts isn't going to kill them.

[BlackLantern]

just because someone has more money than YOU doesn't mean they have disposable income

[Hobodeluxe]

okay where do you guys get the "doing nothing" and "living off the rich" ideology at?
it's a symbiotic relationship. they need workers and customers. they don't create that money themselves. they depend on the sweat of others. so in essence don't they leech off us? and really. it's not the end of the world. they had a good ride under Bush but the time has come to pay the bills. taking back his tax cuts isn't going to kill them.

[Malice]

I say cut em more..taxes that is

[BlackLantern]

I say we suspend tax cuts across the board for the next 4-6 years and use that money to start paying down this deficit

[Hobodeluxe]

just because someone has more money than YOU doesn't mean they have disposable income

No it just means they have to pay 5.4% more tax on their million dollar a year plus income. But chances are they own a business. And chances are their insurance prices would go down because of the competition. and this is one million adjusted income. if they are smart and have a good accountant they could make lots more than that and still not have to pay. I'm not worried that they'll be suffering. And lots more people won't be because of them. They should feel good about being able to provide for their fellow Americans.
Not everyone is poor by choice. It's a bad stereotype. Shiat happens. People get old, they get hurt, they get sick, it's indiscriminate.
I find it repulsive that that is some people's default attitude.

[BlackLantern]

then why don't you just donate 50 percent of your paycheck to charity, every time you get paid...and then try to get by on what you have left??

[The Guard]

I think it's somewhat amusing that people insist on believing they really have any degree of control, or believe that they do in our current system, to any extent. The industry is what it is. There are and will be no guarantees with this or any system.

The way some of you think this system is going to work/not work is just...I don't know, is "cynical" the word?

PATIENT: "Please help my son, his leg is broken in eighteen places!"

SYSTEM: "No, it's not life threatening. Come back in a month".

Come on, people.

No sir, they are not in "breach" of anything. They do have a right to deny any claim if they deem it necessary to maintain their profit margins.

Per legal standards, insurers have a legal right to deny a claim if they feel they do not owe it, be that because it is not a covered loss, the loss is not owed period, for whatever reason, the policy was not in force, other insurance applies, etc.

Companies who deny claims simply because they don't want to take the loss, etc...are guilty of bad faith claim handling, and usually subject to massive fines and punitive and special damages.

Of course this is not the reason they actually give to you or anyone else. If you feel it's unfair then you are welcome to go thru the lengthy beaucracy that is the "appeals" process after you've gotten the run around on the phone. If you fail your first two appeals you can request your state conduct an external review, that is if you are even aware of this to begin with. After which time you may or may not be granted an approval of your claim. If it's approved the insurance pays up; if not then they just lucked out. It's a win win situation for them. This is all in the contract which you agreed upon, except that last part about the external review. Sure they may have to fight the claim but they do that anyway on a daily basis.

So you believe that insurance is essentially a scam...designed to deny appropriate claims that are owed and hope that no one hires a lawyer?

A majority of claims are paid promptly and fairly. The ones that aren't, there are any number of reasons for that.

It's all part of doing business. They're gambling that a high enough portion of ppl will either not bother appealing, not appeal more than once after losing, or give up after losing a second appeal. So I ask you how are they not fullfilling their end of the contract, which you agreed upon when you signed?

They're gambling that they're usually right about what they paid and didn't pay. And it's not a gamble, really. It's usually very highly regulated.

If they do not pay for what the contract states they will pay for...they are in breach of contract. It's pretty simple. Is it up to the insured, after the insurance company finishes assessing, adjusting, and attempting to settle a claim, whether they want to go "Hey, they screwed me over"? Yes, should it be otherwise?

I mean, I'd love it if we lived in a world where the oh, I'd say 35-40 percent of people who aren't happy with the settlement they received could just say "I am not pleased" and get immediate satisfaction, but it just doesn't work that way. Nor, based on what I've seen in just a few years, should it.

If in a company is working to please stockholders like they should, then it's pretty obvious that have to show a profit, correct? How do you do that, by paying up claims when they should? Come now, that would be silly wouldn't it? Alot of these companies have yearly caps to maintain on top of everything else. They're not going to dole out money everytime there's a legitimate claim. That's why they have the appeals process.

No, what would be silly is a company ASKING for lawsuit after lawsuit by lying to your customers, who are also a key source of investment income, and then treating them unfairly.

A company that makes profit by breaching their contract is quickly going to lose that profit in damages and god knows what other fines.

Investors in an insurance company should be worried about the insurers investments and returns from those investments, not just the amount of claims that were paid out, though that's obviously a concern.

The appeals process is for occassions where people or corporate entities feel they've been treated unfairly. A lot of people lose appeals the first and second time for the same reason a lot of lawsuits, period, get thrown out. Because quite frankly, most of the time, by the letter of the law, the insurer DID treat them fairly. Some people just don't think "fair" is "fair".

So you're automatically assuming that a person that every person who has a pre existing condition does it to themselves? How narrow minded can you be?

No...I'm saying: Why would THIS industry suddenly take on more risk than any other business?

[StorminNorman]

you do realize that the top tax rate is the lowest it's ever been and has been at that rate for a while now right? sorry but the privilege of living in the land of plenty and reaping it's bounty isn't free. You pay back into the society that has enabled you to make that money. it's infrastructure,it's defense and it's general welfare.

You do realize the wealthy pay the overwhelming majority of taxes, yes?

okay where do you guys get the "doing nothing" and "living off the rich" ideology at?
it's a symbiotic relationship. they need workers and customers. they don't create that money themselves. they depend on the sweat of others. so in essence don't they leech off us? and really. it's not the end of the world. they had a good ride under Bush but the time has come to pay the bills. taking back his tax cuts isn't going to kill them.

If it costs more to operate in America than it does overseas - they will move their jobs, causing damage to the economy in several ways. This is why FairTax would be a huge boost economically.

[The Overlord]

I like the fact that the GOP and Fox News portray the Canadian Health Care system as a Soviet style nightmare system, its not perfect, but neither is the current American system. I find the system is fine up here.

Either Fox and the GOP are trying disinformation about he Canadian system or they just ignorant of it and talking out of their butts.

[chaseter]

You find it fine because you are young and healthy.

Canada's healthcare system isn't as bad as the GOP are making it out to be. But, their system isn't perfect either so modeling a new system off of that is dumb. Our system works, it just has a few kinks. Fixing those kinks is better than throwing it away and starting fresh, only to find new kinks.

I find it more disturbing that the Democrats and Obama are lying through their teeth about their health care reform when days later we find out that what they said were complete lies more so than I find it disturbing that the GOP is exaggerating Canada's health care system.

[chaseter]

No it just means they have to pay 5.4% more tax on their million dollar a year plus income.
Why don't you pay an additional 5.4% then? If UHC is so important, then what is another measly 5.4% off of your income right! I mean it won't be much if you don't make much:whatever:

But chances are they own a business. And chances are their insurance prices would go down because of the competition. and this is one million adjusted income.
Chance are that they do own a business. The chances are even greater that if they are getting taxed out the ***, they will move their business to a place where it is cheaper. That means cutting jobs. So, was it that important in the long run?

If the government makes you pay for a plan, what is the point of health insurance companies then? If the government is forcing you to pay into their system, health care insurance wouldn't even need to exist. I am sure a very small portion would still exist to accomodate the wealthy but for the middle class that are now paying into a government system, why would they keep their plan? So, that means we cut more jobs! YAY! So far this sounds exciting.

if they are smart and have a good accountant they could make lots more than that and still not have to pay. I'm not worried that they'll be suffering.
If the lower class were smart, they wouldn't be the lower class. Instead, they drop out of high school, they get felonies, they have tons of kids that they can't pay for, they spend their money on drugs, they make bad choices, etc...whatever their case may be. I just love your attitude about UHC! It's so Robin Hood-esque. Let the wealthy make their money and then just hang out in the forest, drinking meade, and then rob them! Once again, punishing success and rewarding failure is stupid. If the poor had a good accountant, maybe they could make lots more than that!:dry:

They should feel good about being able to provide for their fellow Americans.
Welcome to Socialism! Class, today we will be dividing up our lunches so that little Timmy, Suzy, John, and Samantha in the back can eat. Also, we will be making you give half of your clothes to them as well so that they can have nice things.

We have programs that already give the lower class what they need and we are all already paying into that. Compounding more and more programs to give them more and more stuff is leading us into Socialism and what country out there that follows the Socialism program is doing great out there?

Not everyone is poor by choice. It's a bad stereotype. Shiat happens. People get old, they get hurt, they get sick, it's indiscriminate.
I find it repulsive that that is some people's default attitude.
That is correct. Sometimes you are born into a bad situation. But, like you just said, **** happens. We aren't a froofroo utopia where everyone gets a car, dog, house, and kids. Some people make bad choices, some people are born into bad choices, and some people choose not to overcome those obstacles. America is the land of opportunity, nobody is holding these people back. And guess what, children that are born into bad choices get free meals, a free education, and the opportunity to break free of that. But, some choose not to do that. Some choose to live off of welfare and suck the people dry that actually do something.

[SuBe]

From Neal's Nuze

We have heard a lot about obesity this week, thanks to the revelation that almost 10% of Americans' healthcare spending is due to blubberbutts. Then the Democrats promise that their healthcare bill will fund "the fight" against obesity. Then I read a story like this (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1202767/I-afford-live-healthily-says-600-month-benefits-woman-lost-weight-free-gastric-band-surgery.html), from the UK, and I can't help but think, "Coming soon to the United States."

A 25-year-old woman by the name of Laura Ripley was such a lardass that the government considered her disabled. So the taxpayers fork over $15,000 so she can have a weight loss surgery. She loses enough weight to the point where the government no longer considers her disabled. Now Laura Ripley is throwing a fit. Do you know why? Because the government reduced her welfare checks because she is no longer disabled. Now she says that she can't afford healthy food and she is starting to gain weight.
Consider this ... this woman has never held a job in her life. She is a mooch. She is a looter. She is a welfare broodmare. She gets paid by the taxpayers to sit on her fat ass and contribute NOTHING to society. With that, she goes to the National Health Service to get this weight loss surgery. Then after she loses the weight, she complains because now she has less moocher money to pay for her bon bons and tea biscuits. She says, 'I can't afford to buy Weight Watchers crisps and cereal bars any more so I eat Tesco's chocolate bars and packets of Space Invaders crisps, sometimes four of each a day ... People ask why I don't snack on an apple - they're cheap, but emotionally I don't always feel like an apple.'

Not only that, but she blames the government for treating her unfairly and causing her to gain weight again. 'It's heartbreaking that after all my hard work losing this weight someone's come along and ruined it.' That's right. It's not her personal responsibility. It is the government's fault.

[SuBe]

you do realize that the top tax rate is the lowest it's ever been and has been at that rate for a while now right? sorry but the privilege of living in the land of plenty and reaping it's bounty isn't free. You pay back into the society that has enabled you to make that money. it's infrastructure,it's defense and it's general welfare.
I want to see proof of this, please. As in, an IRS Report or something that references an IRS Report.

[SuBe]

okay where do you guys get the "doing nothing" and "living off the rich" ideology at?
it's a symbiotic relationship. they need workers and customers. they don't create that money themselves. they depend on the sweat of others. so in essence don't they leech off us? and really. it's not the end of the world. they had a good ride under Bush but the time has come to pay the bills. taking back his tax cuts isn't going to kill them.
No, they Invest in their Service or Products, they PAY their Employees or Vendors. They don't "Leech" off on anyone. Those that Use Government to FORCE money from someone is the Leech.

[Hobodeluxe]

No, they Invest in their Service or Products, they PAY their Employees or Vendors. They don't "Leech" off on anyone. Those that Use Government to FORCE money from someone is the Leech.

Like I said it's symbiotic. The only leeches you have are those who are on welfare for extended periods of time for no good reason. who never pay any taxes and abuse the system. and those at the top who take the money and don't reinvest it but send it overseas or use fancy accounting to hide from the taxman. Who make money without producing jobs. Just from money swapping hands in a financial shell game done at high speed by a computer with proprietary software on the market's mainframe.

Obama and Holder are cracking down on some of them and they're turning themselves in. Check out the WSJ today.

[The Overlord]

You find it fine because you are young and healthy.

Canada's healthcare system isn't as bad as the GOP are making it out to be. But, their system isn't perfect either so modeling a new system off of that is dumb. Our system works, it just has a few kinks. Fixing those kinks is better than throwing it away and starting fresh, only to find new kinks..

My grandmother is 88 and she's fine with the Health Care system too, are you an expert on Canadian Health Care now? You know more about then people who live here?

Its not a perfect system, but neither is the American one, there is no such thing as a perfect system. There never will be one.

None of this changes the fact the GOP are either lying about the health care system in Canada or they are talking out of their butt about it. It pisses off people up here, this people in other countries don't like the GOP, they demand absolute respect for America, but bash every other country on the planet.

The GOP is making claims that don't make up at all, it seems like spreading disinformation to me.. Saying the governemnt cuts off treatemnt for people considered too old (when did that happen) and talking friends of friends (but don't give a name or location), its impossible to validate any of these claims. That is very dishonest to me.

[chaseter]

Are you an expert on the American healthcare system now? You know more than the people who live here? What political party in the history of every country doesn't spread misinformation. Their entire campaigns are nothing but misinformation and lies.

Your healthcare system isn't perfect, it has flaws. Our health care system isn't perfect either. But, that doesn't mean we should tear it down and start over. I am perfectly fine with our healthcare system and so is my 92 year old great grandmother. That doesn't make my argument valid.

btw, I know about the pros and cons of the single payer system. Do I want the system that Canada has, nope.

[The Overlord]

Are you an expert on the American healthcare system now? You know more than the people who live here?

I have several immediate family members who live in America and have gone through the Health Care system, I'm half American after all.

Can you say the same?

Besides let me ask this, waht makes you think that the Canadian system so bad? What evidence do you have to prove it.

What political party in the history of every country doesn't spread misinformation. Their entire campaigns are nothing but misinformation and lies.

Fine, but keep in mind the reason very few people in other countries like American conservatives is because of stuff, where they bash other countries and spread misinformation about them.

[chaseter]

I have posted tons of articles in here. No I don't have family in Canada but that doesn't make my argument invalid and you having people in America doesn't make your's valid. I have friends in Canada that hate waiting in line so they don't go. Does that make me the winner!? Or, are we going to start a pissing contest to see who has more contacts in either country:dry: If you think that your system doesn't have flaws, then you are in deep water.

I know the US system has flaws and I have said what needs fixing. Your system has flaws too. Single payer systems have flaws and they have been outlined in extensive detail on the interwebz for your convenience. But, do you think that since your system has a few flaws that it should be thrown away and some rushed system should be used in its place?

Universal Health Care right now is not right for our country, and I doubt ever. The GOP pointing flaws at a system that they don't want isn't wrong. I am sure politicians in Canada have done the same thing about our system, amongst other issues.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I hear you, but the GOP isn't helping when it continually lies.

Well...they're helping themselves, but that's to be expected.

[The Overlord]

I have posted tons of articles in here. No I don't have family in Canada but that doesn't make my argument invalid and you having people in America doesn't make your's valid. I have friends in Canada that hate waiting in line so they don't go. Does that make me the winner!? Or, are we going to start a pissing contest to see who has more contacts in either country:dry: If you think that your system doesn't have flaws, then you are in deep water.

That doesn't prove anything, not everyone is going to be happy with any system, you cannot please everyone, I can find examples of people who are happy with the system and I can find examples of people in America who are unhappy with their system, that doesn't a prove trend. Of course the caandian system, because any health Care system would have flaws, there no such things as a perfect system, that doesn't mean its a Stallinist nightmare like the GOP claim it is. That's why they are being dishonest.


I know the US system has flaws and I have said what needs fixing. Your system has flaws too. Single payer systems have flaws and they have been outlined in extensive detail on the interwebz for your convenience. But, do you think that since your system has a few flaws that it should be thrown away and some rushed system should be used in its place?.

Do you want to find articles from this country that praise our system? Do you want to get into that type of pissing contest? You can't a prove a trend here.


Universal Health Care right now is not right for our country, and I doubt ever. The GOP pointing flaws at a system that they don't want isn't wrong. I am sure politicians in Canada have done the same thing about our system, amongst other issues.

Spreading innuendo about another country is wrong, that's the worst kind of dishonesty, where you spread falsehoods, but are still cowardly to make a statement that have to take responsibility for. That is what the GOP are doing and that is wrong.

[StorminNorman]

I have several immediate family members who live in America and have gone through the Health Care system, I'm half American after all.

Can you say the same?

Besides let me ask this, waht makes you think that the Canadian system so bad? What evidence do you have to prove it.

Canada has 2.3 doctors for 1,000 citizens. Among OCED countries, only Turkey, Japan, the United Kingdom and Finland have fewer doctors.

The Fraser Institute - a Canadian Think Tank organization, did a comprehensive study on the Canadian healthcare system. Their findings:

The comparative evidence is that the Canadian health care model is inferior to those that are in place in other countries of the OECD. It produces inferior age-adjusted access to physicians and technology, produces longer waiting times, is less successful in preventing deaths from preventable causes, and costs more than any of the other systems that have comparable objectives. The models that produce superior results and cost less than Canada’s monopoly-insurer, monopoly-provider system have: user fees; alternative, comprehensive, privately funded care; and private hospitals that compete for patient demand. The overwhelming evidence is that, in comparative terms, Canada’s system of health care delivery under-performs and needs to emulate the more successful models available elsewhere in those countries that offer their citizens universal
access to health care.

[Mad Ones]

This is a good link with a lot of statistics comparing Canadian health care to other countries.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/33/38979719.pdf

[The Overlord]

Canada has 2.3 doctors for 1,000 citizens. Among OCED countries, only Turkey, Japan, the United Kingdom and Finland have fewer doctors.

The Fraser Institute - a Canadian Think Tank organization, did a comprehensive study on the Canadian healthcare system. Their findings:

You do realize the Fraser Institute is hardly an unbaised organization, I might as well use ACLU studies to make findings about the American legal system, if you are going to use them as evidence.

You want to go this route, allow to post counter examples:

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2004/05/04/compare040504.html

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/concepts/jcuhs-ecces/index-eng.htm

Regardless no one is saying the Canadian system is perfect, but the innuendo spread about it by the GOP is false. Because if you are going to use Fraser Institute, I'm going to use very political web sites then: http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/reality-check-shona-holmes-holmes-brain-tu

[Malice]

Like I said it's symbiotic. The only leeches you have are those who are on welfare for extended periods of time for no good reason. who never pay any taxes and abuse the system. and those at the top who take the money and don't reinvest it but send it overseas or use fancy accounting to hide from the taxman. Who make money without producing jobs. Just from money swapping hands in a financial shell game done at high speed by a computer with proprietary software on the market's mainframe.

Obama and Holder are cracking down on some of them and they're turning themselves in. Check out the WSJ today.

You also do realize...1 in 6 people right now don't even pay taxes right?

[SuBe]

You also do realize...1 in 6 people right now don't even pay taxes right?
97.2% of all taxes paid are by people earning over 50% of the income.

[Hobodeluxe]

You also do realize...1 in 6 people right now don't even pay taxes right?

you mean they don't earn enough to owe any income taxes.
I did know that. you do realize that 1 in 9 are unemployed too right?
more than that actually because they only count those receiving benefits.

most of these people pay a large portion of their income on medicare and social security though. sales tax for them is the same. the price of fuel and food is the same. percentage wise they still get cleaned worse than the rich when you add it all up. but I suppose if you think you can get blood from a turnip go ahead and squeeze brother.

[Hobodeluxe]

this is interesting (http://www.rollcall.com/news/37284-1.html)

[Hobodeluxe]

97.2% of all taxes paid are by people earning over 50% of the income.

and the top 1% own 40% of ALL the wealth in the country.
and most of their income is as capital gains or some other lower taxed form of income.
you act as though people who make a million a year (in taxable adjusted income) can't afford a 5% tax hike.
I say poppycock.

[SentinelMind]

I'm not entirely opposed to raising taxes in some instances when its absolutely necessary, but I'm really bothered by this whole "let's raise taxes, they can afford it" class warfare rhetoric from the Left.

You make $200,000 a year, 5% of that is $10,000. I know some medical students who will be making that much money when they get out of school, they had to take out $100,000+ of debt....and by that time...they're at the age when they want to get married, have kids, start settling down, buy a house, get kids enrolled in good school. Plus doctors have to buy lawsuit insurance if they start a practice and don't want to get sued millions of dollars for making a mistake. I think its ignorant for anyone to assume that people who make that much money have any disposable income sitting around they can give up. Many people making that much money cannot afford to give up an extra $10,000 as easily as Leftists here can think.

[Hobodeluxe]

I'm not entirely opposed to raising taxes in some instances when its absolutely necessary, but I'm really bothered by this whole "let's raise taxes, they can afford it" class warfare rhetoric from the Left.

You make $200,000 a year, 5% of that is $10,000. I know some medical students who will be making that much money when they get out of school, they had to take out $100,000+ of debt....and by that time...they're at the age when they want to get married, have kids, start settling down, buy a house, get kids enrolled in good school. Plus doctors have to buy lawsuit insurance if they start a practice and don't want to get sued millions of dollars for making a mistake. I think its ignorant for anyone to assume that people who make that much money have any disposable income sitting around they can give up. Many people making that much money cannot afford to give up an extra $10,000 as easily as Leftists here can think.

It's only class warfare when the rich get their taxes hiked.
but never when social programs get cut back to pay for them.
or jobs are lost so they can move them to somewhere they can pay less.
or they lobby with all the power their money can buy to keep us from having something. that's not class warfare?

and at 200k per yr you would not be in the bracket that got the hike. for single people that's 350k yr adjusted income for a 1% increase.
If you made over a million a year again adjusted income it would be 5.4%
with a good accountant you could make a lot more and not have to pay.

[chaseter]

If you believe that we will never have a tax increase to pay for all of this crap then you are being led in the right direction...to slaughter.

[Hobodeluxe]

If you believe that we will never have a tax increase to pay for all of this crap then you are being led in the right direction...to slaughter.

We? You and I don't make enough to qualify for the hike.
I wish we did. I wouldn't mind making a million a year. I wouldn't biatch about the taxes either.

[chaseter]

They will tax them first. Then, our taxes will be raised. If you think that the top 1-5% are going to pay for all of these programs and get us out of trillions and trillions in debt, then you are a bit naive. Our taxes will be raised before his first 4 years are up...I will bet on that.

[Paradyme]

House Health Rundown
By Jamie Dupree @ July 30, 2009 11:57 PM

I will assume for this blog entry that you weren't sitting around last night watching The Deuce and its coverage of the health reform debate in the U.S. House Energy and Commerce Committee.


So I'll try to fill in some of the blanks for you.

With four of the committee's seven Blue Dogs on board, Democrats were able to fend off a series of Republican amendments that sought to do away with the public insurance option and more.

You can see the vote on striking the public option at http://bit.ly/QpvQT

Democrats also knocked down an effort to make members of Congress use the public insurance option if it goes into effect, ruling it out of order because the GOP amendment wrongly infringed on the jurisdiction of the House Administration Committee.

You can see a copy of that amendment at http://bit.ly/k2v6n

Also defeated was an amendment dealing with Section 102 - the infamous Page 16 that we have discussed on this blog a number of times.

Rep. Cliff Stearns (R-FL) offered an amendment that would have replaced the language in that section with a simple sentence:

"Nothing in this division shall prevent or limit individuals from keeping their current health benefit plan."

That was defeated on a 32 to 26 vote, with three Blue Dogs supporting the amendment. http://bit.ly/TRE92

On a 29-28 vote, Democrats narrowly defeated an amendment from Rep. Nathan Deal (R-GA) that would have required more substantive ID verification for new Medicaid enrollees under the bill.

Deal and other Republicans argued that with millions of people under this plan would be automatically enrolled in Medicaid, without any guarantee that these new people are US citizens or legal residents. http://bit.ly/uo1FQ

On the issue of abortion, the committee at first provided a victory to Republicans and conservative Democrats, as they joined to approve a plan that would not require coverage of abortions in the health reform bill.

The first vote was a 31-27 victory for the amendment http://bit.ly/19MuFr - but Democrats twisted some arms not long before midnight and overturned that, defeating it the second time on a 30-29 tally.

The committee adjourned just before midnight, and returns at 10am for what should be a final day of action.


Approval of the bill will give Democrats something positive on health care reform, unlike over in the Senate Finance Committee, where no bill will be produced by that panel until after Labor Day.

http://wsbradio.com/blogs/jamie_dupree/2009/07/house-health-rundown.html


I can't believe people still think this is a good bill.

[SuBe]

and the top 1% own 40% of ALL the wealth in the country.
and most of their income is as capital gains or some other lower taxed form of income.
you act as though people who make a million a year (in taxable adjusted income) can't afford a 5% tax hike.
I say poppycock.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/250.html

Here's where I got my information, where do you get yours? 1% owning 40%?

[SuBe]

We? You and I don't make enough to qualify for the hike.
I wish we did. I wouldn't mind making a million a year. I wouldn't biatch about the taxes either.
Yeah, good idea. Lets tax the people who provide the jobs, that'll teach them!

[BlackLantern]

and then when those people cut jobs to save money, we can just tell the unemployed that it's going to be ok

[SuBe]

and then when those people cut jobs to save money, we can just tell the unemployed that it's going to be ok
Rinse, Wash, Repeat.

[Kelly]

Yeah, good idea. Lets tax the people who provide the jobs, that'll teach them!

and then when those people cut jobs to save money, we can just tell the unemployed that it's going to be ok

That is where my problem lies.....where does it say that people who make $250,000/year are rich? Especially those that ARE small business owners, that do provide employment for the vast majority of the people in the US, ACTUALLY bring home $250,000/year and don't put a good portion of that BACK into their business.

ALSO, one year they may make 200,000, the next year 250,000, the next year 300k and the next year less than 150,000.....thats how small business goes. But right now, they may be in a 150,000 year, need loans to be paid back in that 300K year....AND THEY CAN'T GET THOSE LOANS, so they are either laying off workers, or going under themselves. So, yeah, lets tax the hell out of those guys in their personal income, as well as every other tax we can think of.

I just do not understand that line of thinking. It goes against everything in economics that spurs growth. Amazing....

[Hobodeluxe]

That is where my problem lies.....where does it say that people who make $250,000/year are rich? Especially those that ARE small business owners, that do provide employment for the vast majority of the people in the US, ACTUALLY bring home $250,000/year and don't put a good portion of that BACK into their business.

ALSO, one year they may make 200,000, the next year 250,000, the next year 300k and the next year less than 150,000.....thats how small business goes. But right now, they may be in a 150,000 year, need loans to be paid back in that 300K year....AND THEY CAN'T GET THOSE LOANS, so they are either laying off workers, or going under themselves. So, yeah, lets tax the hell out of those guys in their personal income, as well as every other tax we can think of.

I just do not understand that line of thinking. It goes against everything in economics that spurs growth. Amazing....

I'll bet the 80 and 90% top tax rates back during the boom of the 40's and 50's just blow your mind then.

[chaseter]

What are you talking about?

[Hobodeluxe]

If you were asking me then it was this (http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php).

If not then nevermind.

but here's a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwGLdYBm1bY) to watch for your enjoyment.

[hippie_hunter]

Sicko is not a reliable source. Michael Moore tends to spin the truth in all of his documentaries to "prove" his point. He makes Fox News look like a saint.

[Hobodeluxe]

Sicko is not a reliable source. Michael Moore tends to spin the truth in all of his documentaries to "prove" his point. He makes Fox News look like a saint.


umm dude it's direct video of a congressional hearing. take the blinders off.

[hippie_hunter]

umm dude it's direct video of a congressional hearing. take the blinders off.

Except Moore tends to edit and manipulate stuff like congressional hearings and interviews to where they are taken out of context.

That is why he spins and stretches the truth. He takes things that people have said and puts them in a different context. Is there another direct video of that hearing that hasn't been taken from a segment of Sicko.

[Hobodeluxe]

Except Moore tends to edit and manipulate stuff like congressional hearings and interviews to where they are taken out of context.

That is why he spins and stretches the truth. He takes things that people have said and puts them in a different context. Is there another direct video of that hearing that hasn't been taken from a segment of Sicko.

My name is Linda Peeno, and although the witness list does not reflect this, I am a physician. I am a former medical director and medical reviewer. I did the job that was referred to repeatedly in the first panel as a physician manager for three health care organizations. I currently, though, primarily work in medical and health care ethics.

I am here primarily today to make a public confession. In the spring of 1987, as a physician, I denied a man a necessary operation that would have saved his life and thus caused his death.
No person and no group has held me accountable for this because, in fact, what I did was I saved the company a half a million dollars for this.
And furthermore, this particular act secured my reputation as a good medical director, and it ensured my advancement in the health care industry&emdash;in little more than a year, I went from making a few hundred dollars per week to an annual six-figure income.
In all my work, I had one primary duty and that was to use my medical expertise for the financial benefit of the organization for which I worked and according to the managed care industry... it is not an ethical issue to sacrifice a human being for a savings, no matter how that savings occurs. And I was repeatedly told that I was not denying care. I was simply denying payment.
I am not an ethicist whose primary background has come from the books. For me, the ethical issues were born in the trenches and pit of the pain that I have come to realize that I cause. And if I am an expert here today, it is because I know how managed care maims and kills patients.
So I am here to tell you about the dirty work of managed care and this is the kind of straight talk that I wish Ms. Ignagni [President and CEO of the American Association of Health Plans] could hear now.
Now, let me explain to you the ways that I was a good medical director. I was regularly consulted by marketing on ways to change expensive benefits or change the language to give me loopholes to make denials when requests came.
For example in one plan, we were able to structure our investigational language exclusion so that I was often able to use it to deny almost anything that was expensive, and particularly out-of-network requests.
I turned preexisting exclusions into a game as I tried to connect almost any prior medical complaint or visit as a reason to deny payment.
There are many more thing that I could tell you about, but, ultimately I was only as good&emdash;and I put that in quotation marks&emdash;as the doctors in my network, for it was their numbers that I needed to prove that I was doing my job.
That meant that I did whatever it took to control them: intimidation, hassling, humiliation, I have done it all. I have used inadequate and inaccurate data to create reports to get doctors to make their numbers better, in other words, decrease their usage.
I have used "economic credentialling" to select the best inexpensive physicians and rarely correlated these with quality factors.
I have helped design contract provisions to ensure our payment and monitoring schemes got the results we wanted at the plan, and I have threatened deselection to numerous physicians who were especially difficult or costly.
However, there is one last activity that I think deserves a special place in this list. This is what I call the "smart bomb" of cost containment and that is medical necessity denials.
Let me take you to the heart of managed care.
Even if a plan denies using all the other things that I could list, it is impossible for them to deny their use of this practice because it is vital to managed care; that is making medical decisions about access, availability, and use.
And even when medical criteria is used, it is rarely developed in nay kind of standard traditional clinical processes. It is rarely standardized across the field. The criteria is rarely available for prior review by physicians or the members of the plan. So, even if a a plan has a clear benefit package and has all the perks, like free eye exams or free screening tests for cancer, other marketing ploys, the member's physician will never be the final authority on what his or her patient will get.
This might go unnoticed for simple needs, like a regular office visit or a bout of the flu, but I can tell you that when something unexpected or expensive happens, it is like a bucolic pasture turned battlefield. The land mines will start exploding everywhere.
And somewhere in every coverage booklet for every managed care plan is a claim that establishes the plan as the final authority for medical necessity. What that means is that there is some physician at some plan doing what I did.
That person rarely is continuing a clinical practice. They are sitting behind a desk making decisions about a patient they will never see or touch, completely removed from the consequence of their decisions. They are getting paid by someone to make decisions for the benefit of the plan and not for the benefit of the members.
I would like to conclude by saying, what kind of system have we created when a physician can receive a lucrative income for adding to the suffering of patients? I became a physician to care for, not bring harm to my patients, and I am haunted by the thousands of pieces of paper on which I have written that deadly word, "denial." Thank you. [I]In her prepared written testimony which was long and detailed, Dr. Peeno concluded with the following statement:
I contend that managed care, as it has become, can exist only through serious ethical transgressions against individuals and society. Furthermore, I contend that a health plan's resistance to ethical correctives is proportionate to its reliance on ethical transgressions for its "success." Disclosure and exposure would present serious disadvantages in competition for cost-cutting and profit making. In summary, it is a fair assessment to claim that managed care's "success" depends upon the following:

Use of non-medical agendas to drive medical policies and practice;
Collapsing of the rights of individuals for purported greater collectivist goals;
Supersession of the care of the individual by the care of the collective;
Creation of ill relations between professional ambitions and the absence of moral inhibitions;
Reliance upon righteous ideologies about reform and societal benefits coupled with cost-cutting policies;
Disparagement of the "weaker" (i.e. costly) groups within society;
Linkage of economic imperatives and professional self-interest;
Direction of medical professionals by parameters set by health care and financial administrators;
Establishment of quotas and internal processes for control with little regard for the physical and psychological cost of their effects;
Selection of professionals who are ideological converts and "good" practitioners of its goals;
Enticement of physicians as agents of an organization, such that organizational goals are supplied with medical validation;
Facilitation of unethical professional practice by financial rewards and bonuses, as well as job security and advancement;
Generation of moral void by use of propaganda;
Degradation of moral expressions of compassion and sympathy for persons who have been designated costly or needy;
Induction of guilt into those who are made to feel a drain on resources or a threat to the collectivist goals.


The list could go on, however, there is enough here to suggest drastic needs for change. Of course, each of these would be vehemently contested by the managed care industry. If they are inaccurate, then it seems that the industry should have no reservations about supporting transparent and publicly accountable activities.
We know, though, they do object to this. Why? Because control of patients and doctors depends upon unethical practices. To this, at least, we should object. Manipulation and exploitation for any reason, even beneficence, is unethical and destructive of social good.
We have enough experiences from history to demonstrate the consequences of secretive, unregulated systems which go awry. The list above is not new. In fact, it comes from a book detailing the characteristics of a dire period of recent history.3
The last time this combination of forces worked in concert, over 200,000 individuals lost their lives in Nazi Germany (even before the Final Solution). Most of these persons were German citizens sacrificed for medical reasons set by economic and social agendas. I find the parallels chilling. One can only wonder: how much pain, suffering and death will we have before we have the courage to change our course?
Personally, I have decided even one death is too much for me.

* Dr. Peeno delivered an oral statement along with written testimony for a Congressional hearing on "Contract Issues and Quality Standards for Managed Care." Her testimony was heard on May 30, 1996 by the Subcommittee on Health and Environment of the House of Representative's Committee on Commerce. Her entire testimony can be found at the National Coalition of Mental Health Professionals and Consumers." (http://www.nomanagedcare.org/DrPeenotestimony.html) (http://www.nomanagedcare.org/DrPeenotestimony.html).
Now tell me where in that video did Moore distort and twist and spin her words or intent?

[hippie_hunter]

Thank you.

[Bob ROARman!]

Why do people doubt it? I don't get it. There won't be solution that appeals to everyone, that much is obvious, but with the government involved one way or another with any said solution, it will never NEVER be anything but profit first, people second. It's always been that way, with everything. We are expendable. They will do anything. They care only as much as it takes to make a profit and keep in control. There's nothing to really look forward to, we have absolutely no control over the outcome of it.

[SuBe]

Government is POWER first, Votes Seconds, People Dead, Dead Last. I don't understand how anyone can thing the Government really loves you.

[chaseter]

I don't understand how anyone can think the government is going to do an outstanding job running healthcare when they don't do an outstanding job running anything else.

[BlackLantern]

because people are greedy and it's something they can get without paying for it

[Nivek]

I don't understand how anyone can think the government is going to do an outstanding job running healthcare when they don't do an outstanding job running anything else.

Come on, can't you come up with a legitimate complaint other than repeating such an ignorant statement?

[BlackLantern]

its the truth, the economy is in shambles, education and NCLB is a joke, infrastructure is laughable and inefficient, not to mention all the waste in the DoD...so with all that why are people suddenly wetting themselves for government run healthcare

[Hobodeluxe]

I don't understand how anyone can think the government is going to do an outstanding job running healthcare when they don't do an outstanding job running anything else.

really? have you looked at the medicare satisfaction levels vs private coverage?

or are you just making a broad generalization that doesn't reflect the actual facts?

[Hobodeluxe]

its the truth, the economy is in shambles, education and NCLB is a joke, infrastructure is laughable and inefficient, not to mention all the waste in the DoD...so with all that why are people suddenly wetting themselves for government run healthcare

the reason everything is in shambles is for the last 30 years our govt has been shifting the wealth into fewer and fewer hands. oh sure you get a few hundred of your taxes a year to keep a year. but the guys on top are keeping billions. The Bush tax cuts would have more than covered the costs of health care reform for a decade. The Iraq war would have paid for it twice over. The medicare part D plan would have come close to paying for it (would pay for it if they got it down another 100 billion or so)

and it's not all of a sudden that people have been wanting this. this has been needed for decades. the only problem is that our govt is owned by the corporate lobbyists and their influence trumps that of the people.

[BlackLantern]

the reason everything is in shambles is for the last 30 years our govt has been shifting the wealth into fewer and fewer hands. oh sure you get a few hundred of your taxes a year to keep a year. but the guys on top are keeping billions. The Bush tax cuts would have more than covered the costs of health care reform for a decade. The Iraq war would have paid for it twice over. The medicare part D plan would have come close to paying for it (would pay for it if they got it down another 100 billion or so)

and it's not all of a sudden that people have been wanting this. this has been needed for decades. the only problem is that our govt is owned by the corporate lobbyists and their influence trumps that of the people.

and you want to put this countrys' healthcare into those same hands

[Malice]

I agree....things could have been done for years. Noone did it...Yes I am blaming everyone in congress and the white house going back 20-30 years.

But I just don't like the idea of America and a govt run healthcare system. Seems counter to what we are imo...

[Malice]

When it comes down to it.
I would love to have healthcare for everyone.

It would be nice....

But the realities, the Government is a bunch of manegerial morons, they cant manage their way out of a paper bag...UNLESS it benefits them over someone else...then they get creative.

I dont want them anywhere near my healthcare.

[Bob ROARman!]

Government is POWER first, Votes Seconds, People Dead, Dead Last. I don't understand how anyone can thing the Government really loves you.

Votes also make almost no impact whatsoever. We don't live in a democracy. We like to think we do, but we don't. Elections of pretty much every kind in this country, especially presidential elections, are just illusions of control we think we have. These people in government, not all of them are morons, they just play morons. The over arching plan is genius. It's genius and it has completely worked. Just take a look at the last presidential election.

[SuBe]

the reason everything is in shambles is for the last 30 years our govt has been shifting the wealth into fewer and fewer hands. oh sure you get a few hundred of your taxes a year to keep a year. but the guys on top are keeping billions. The Bush tax cuts would have more than covered the costs of health care reform for a decade. The Iraq war would have paid for it twice over. The medicare part D plan would have come close to paying for it (would pay for it if they got it down another 100 billion or so)

and it's not all of a sudden that people have been wanting this. this has been needed for decades. the only problem is that our govt is owned by the corporate lobbyists and their influence trumps that of the people.

And what exactly is wrong with keeping what you earn? Or, is it only ok to keep YOUR money, but it is fine to take someone else's?

[Hobodeluxe]

It's not going to be government run healthcare. the hospitals,doctors,etc are still private operators. all they are doing is offering a basic insurance coverage.

[Hobodeluxe]

And what exactly is wrong with keeping what you earn? Or, is it only ok to keep YOUR money, but it is fine to take someone else's?

tell that to the guy who had to file medical bankruptcy and lost it all because he couldn't get coverage.

[BlackLantern]

tell that to the guy who had to file medical bankruptcy and lost it all because he couldn't get coverage.

tell me how that's my problem??.....im barely getting by as it is, and, if this crap passes, within 3 to 4 years, Im going to be paying for other peoples health care, using a system that I wouldn't go near....so Ill be back to living on ramen and barely affording gas, but other people will have healthcare

[danielisthor]

tell that to the guy who had to file medical bankruptcy and lost it all because he couldn't get coverage.

That didn't answer the question asked.

[hippie_hunter]

It's not going to be government run healthcare. the hospitals,doctors,etc are still private operators. all they are doing is offering a basic insurance coverage.

Except private operators hate government insurance coverage because the government has a hard time and takes too long to pay.

I used to have military insurance from my family and unless you lived in a military area, it was a pain in the ass because it wasn't accepted for that very reason. I was forced to go to a freaking ghetto clinic for crying out loud.

[chaseter]

Come on, can't you come up with a legitimate complaint other than repeating such an ignorant statement?
You can't come up with a legitimate rebuttal other than snipe from the sidelines:huh:

It isn't an ignorant statement. The government is not efficient, it isn't that hard of a statement to comprehend. Please, tell me a government run institution that is doing just fantastic. Oh yeah, we already went through this and someone said the USPS and got lol'd at.

[The Guard]

I used to have military insurance from my family and unless you lived in a military area, it was a pain in the ass because it wasn't accepted for that very reason. I was forced to go to a freaking ghetto clinic for crying out loud.

Interesting. Supposedly, military insurance is the best there is. They have the best customer satisfaction numbers apparently.

[hippie_hunter]

Interesting. Supposedly, military insurance is the best there is. They have the best customer satisfaction numbers apparently.

It's totally awesome when you're in a military area. Excellent medical care and whatnot. Sure you don't get your own doctor, but oh well. Can't complain. It's free and good medical care. It doesn't hurt when the hospitals were run by the military either.

However in Upstate New York it has been nothing but a hassle and practically useless. For the very reason that they hate government insurance. They're apparently too much of a hassle and don't pay right away.

[chaseter]

It's not going to be government run healthcare. the hospitals,doctors,etc are still private operators. all they are doing is offering a basic insurance coverage.
It is sort of sad that you believe that. I want to believe it too, but I am not naive or blind. It won't happen. Obama said he doesn't want to run auto companies. Guess what, he is still doing it and increasing legislation against them. The government will take over health care and the democratic congress running this country will make it so. Obama was spouting things he thought about the health care bill that were complete lies because he didn't write it. If that 1000 page bill flopped onto his desk, you can bet you ass he won't read it and will just sign it and BOOM, everything he said wouldn't happen will happen. He has already done that sooooo.

tell that to the guy who had to file medical bankruptcy and lost it all because he couldn't get coverage.
I think you said it best, **** happens. Just because someone's tire explodes on the road doesn't mean that the first rich person that drives by is forced to give them money to go buy a new one.

The country is in debt like crazy, lets fix that before we start to tackle health care that will put us further in debt.

[chaseter]

tell me how that's my problem??.....im barely getting by as it is, and, if this crap passes, within 3 to 4 years, Im going to be paying for other peoples health care, using a system that I wouldn't go near....so Ill be back to living on ramen and barely affording gas, but other people will have healthcare
The American way! People who work hard get taxed to death and the people that don't work get free stuff from our paycheck!

[The Overlord]

I don't understand how anyone can think the government is going to do an outstanding job running healthcare when they don't do an outstanding job running anything else.

What about the military, is that run well by the government?

[danielisthor]

Truth be told, the Military is probably the only Government Institution that we the tax payers, get our money's worth.

What happens when nobody want's to buy the newer unsafer more fuel effecient vehicles Government Motors puts out. How's the government going to force us to buy them?

What happens when doctor's refuse to accept the Government Health Insurance Plan or drops it when payments come slowly or not at all. What happens when some government agent decides to deny treatment or denies payment for service.

[The Overlord]

Truth be told, the Military is probably the only Government Institution that we the tax payers, get our money's worth.

What happens when nobody want's to buy the newer unsafer more fuel effecient vehicles Government Motors puts out. How's the government going to force us to buy them?

What happens when doctor's refuse to accept the Government Health Insurance Plan or drops it when payments come slowly or not at all. What happens when some government agent decides to deny treatment or denies payment for service.

Ok, but people have argued that this Health care plan curtails freedom because it takes away people's tax dollars and spends on things they don't want. Ok that's a valid point of view.

But what about people don't support the Iraq war, by the same logic isn't spending their money on things they don't approve, like the war, curtailing their freedom?

It seems like a double standard, its ok for the government to spend tax dollars on anything related to the military, even if some people don't approve of how their money is spent, but its wrong for the government to spend money on things like Health care, because some people might disapprove.

[SuGarRush]

Hey guys, I know I'm late jumping in, but I just wanted to share a few thoughts.

I've gotta make this brief because I have to be up for labs at 6 butttt....


as a medical student, this proposal sequence scares the pants off of me and everyone else at my school.

NO ONE has a RIGHT to health care. Life, Liberty, and the PURSUIT of Happiness. Not the guarantee. That's the first thing to remember. Second thing should be the founding fathers intention to create a country based on states rights. Remember, they were rebelling AGAINST the British Empire, they founded a country based on the idea that a large centralized government CANNOT fairly govern it's people. That's why the original central government only had the right to maintain an army and print money. (and a few other things here and there ;) )

Lets fast forward a couple hundred years. We now have a President who says we HAVE to provide healthcare to EVERYONE, because it's a RIGHT of a U.S. citizen?
Who is going to provide said healthcare? The same people who brought us the IRS and the DMV? Anyone remember getting their drivers license? Yeah, that was a fun 6 hour wait...

Let me share some anecdotes with all of y'all.

When my aunt lived in England, the family pediatrician advised her flying all 3 kids to the U.S. for medical treatment, because standard, routine treatments would take months to receive there. (I'm not talking massive thoracic surgery here, this is basic immunizations and such)

My friend from Canada, lets call her Karen, LOVES socialized medicine. She'd have to, she's been taught how wonderful it was since before she could walk. She threw shot put in highschool , highly competitive. Competitive enough that she was being watched by college scouts from across the U.S. and Canada. And then she blew out her knee. Bad.
So she went to get it fixed.

Canadian Socialized Medical system timeframe : 6 MONTHS for basic radiography, an additional 12 to 18 months following that before surgery.

American Privatized Medicine: Scans (MRI, radiography, whatever) within 24 hours, surgery next week with a top notch orthopedist.

Which do you think she chose?


The point is, everyone brags on how great universal healthcare is, but when it's time to put up or shut up, everyone turns to the U.S.


Doctors HATE the large HMO's, and government intervention (medicare/medicaid) is hated as well.
Imagine providing a service, and then waiting YEARS to be paid. That happens now, to many many Doctors across the country, thanks to care&caid.

Now imagine how much worse it would get...

Speaking for myself (the only person I'm qualified to speak for) it isn't fair to the Medical community. By the end of my four years in school, I will have accumulated almost a quarter million dollars in debt, not counting undergrad, just to become a certified doctor. Just a few years ago, it wasn't at all unusual to see residents working 36 hour shifts, 70+ hour weeks.

And now you're going to FORCE us to recognize further government payment?

let me present a hypothetical situation,

You drive up to Bob's auto repair because you need your brakes completely overhauled.
Now, Bob does the work, and the cost is 400 dollars. That 400 dollars goes toward covering Bob's rent, the parts he used, his other overhead costs, and he pockets some to help put his kids in braces.
400 dollars is a fair price.

Now lets say you decide to only pay him 50, and he HAS to take it.

Sucks doesn't it?
It's not really fair is it?
That's the steps the government is moving towards.
In every other profession in the world, the person who provides the service determines the price. But not in Medicine.

And now the government wants to stick its tentacles in even deeper?
Is it any wonder we're seeing a mass exodus of our best medical talent to Hong Kong and other free-market areas of the globe?

I'm off to bed, I have to be up in 5 hours.

Thanks for your time.

[Malice]

It's not going to be government run healthcare. the hospitals,doctors,etc are still private operators. all they are doing is offering a basic insurance coverage.

and I have some Ocean Front Property in Arizona I would like to sell you...

[metr0man]

NO ONE has a RIGHT to health care. Life, Liberty, and the PURSUIT of Happiness. Not the guarantee. That's the first thing to remember.

I don't think supporters of this plan equate Health care with Happiness. You make it sound like Health Care = the pleasure from getting an HDTV or loving a season of LOST or something.

If you're sick, getting care isn't happiness, it's physical well-being and survival. They think of health care more akin to police or firefighters, general basic necessity for an orderly society.

I certainly understand the argument, vis a vis the government controlling healthcare. I think there has to be some sort of middle ground between what the liberals want and the Repubs, but the two things I don't want to hear from opponents are:

-Dismissing the necessity of health care in every day life
-Trying to spin how great the current insurance system is. I'm sorry but there's a reason something like 70+ want to reform the health care system even if they dont support this plan. Insurance companies are NIGHTMARES, they play and **** with people's lives on a regular basis. The two industries that make me DREAD dealing with them if anything ever goes wrong are the airline industries and heath insurance. *shudders* Ironically, I didnt realize how had bad it was going to be going into 'private life', because growing up, i had good health care from my dad's gov't job.

[Hobodeluxe]

so if this thing does pass hippie hunter maybe then there will be no military area only access? they'll be able to use any facility. and you guys are not going to get the tax hike. you don't make that kind of money. I doubt many, if any of us here on the board make a million a year. so quit saying it's going to cost you.

[BlackLantern]

so if this thing does pass hippie hunter maybe then there will be no military area only access? they'll be able to use any facility. and you guys are not going to get the tax hike. you don't make that kind of money. I doubt many, if any of us here on the board make a million a year. so quit saying it's going to cost you.

but it will eventually...maybe not right at this moment, but give it 3 or 4 years and you'll probably see a sizable increase due to this across the board, on top of inflation....not even considering the possibility of that is foolish

[Paradyme]

Obama officials: No guarantee taxes won't go up
2 Obama administration officials can't guarantee middle-class Americans won't see tax hike

WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Barack Obama's treasury secretary said Sunday he cannot rule out higher taxes to help tame an exploding budget deficit, and his chief economic adviser would not dismiss raising them on middle-class Americans as part of a health care overhaul.

As the White House sought to balance campaign rhetoric with governing, officials appeared willing to extend unemployment benefits. With former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan saying he is "pretty sure we've already seen the bottom" of the recession, Obama aides sought to defend the economic stimulus and calm a jittery public.

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and National Economic Council Director Larry Summers both sidestepped questions on Obama's intentions about taxes. Geithner said the White House was not ready to rule out a tax hike to lower the federal deficit; Summers said Obama's proposed health care overhaul needs funding from somewhere.

"There is a lot that can happen over time," Summers said, adding that the administration believes "it is never a good idea to absolutely rule things out, no matter what."

During his presidential campaign, Obama repeatedly vowed "you will not see any of your taxes increase one single dime." But the simple reality remains that his ambitious overhaul of how Americans receive health care -- promised without increasing the federal deficit -- must be paid for.

"If we want an economy that's going to grow in the future, people have to understand we have to bring those deficits down. And it's going to be difficult, hard for us to do. And the path to that is through health care reform," Geithner said. "We're not at the point yet where we're going to make a judgment about what it's going to take."

Selling that proposal, however, has proved tricky.

On Friday, the government released a report that suggested the worst recession in the United States since World War II appears on the verge of ending. The economy dipped only slightly in the second quarter of this year -- falling at a 1 percent annual pace, better than expected.

The president cautioned against instant turnaround, though.

"Well, as I've said, I think we maybe are beginning to see the end of the recession, but it's still going to be some time before we are seeing companies hiring again. That's usually the last thing that happens," Obama said in an interview with Univision that aired on Sunday.

"So I think we are still going to have a tough remainder of the year -- probably until next year -- but, you know, at least what we are seeing -- we've pulled back from the possibility of a depression. That's not the danger."

Many analysts think the economy is starting to grow again in the current quarter, setting up a long-awaited recovery.

"Most private forecasters -- and let's use their judgment -- suggest you're going to see unemployment start to come down maybe beginning in the second half of next year," Geithner said, adding those same economists predict positive growth during the second half of this year.

At the same time, Geithner and other administration officials are contemplating how to ask Congress to extend -- again -- unemployment benefits for the millions of Americans who have lost their jobs in recent months. The proposal drew measured support from Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., as long as the benefits are drawn from the already approved economic stimulus package.

"We need to take care of those who are unemployed, but we also need to make sure they get jobs," he said.

Those jobs, though, are still elusive. Greenspan said the economy is slowly coming back.

"Collapse, I think, is now off the table. We were teetering for a while," he said.

Greenspan said he doesn't think the Federal Reserve should be considering raising interest rates to ward off inflation, although he added that the Fed will have to rein in credit and raise rates at some point.

Obama's opponent for the presidency, Sen. John McCain, questioned whether the administration's actions will prove beneficial for the country.

"I think it's pretty clear, if you pump trillions of dollars into the economy, you will see some recovery," the Arizona Republican said while giving Obama credit for the improvement. "But the long-term consequences, I think, are going to be, unfortunately, devastating unless we do something about it."

......

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/2-Obama-officials-No-apf-2491158742.html?x=0&.v=7



Crowd Explodes When Arlen Specter Urges That We "Do This Fast"
J-Bpshk5nX0


Couple links.

[SuBe]

tell that to the guy who had to file medical bankruptcy and lost it all because he couldn't get coverage.
Just because you have to file Bankruptcy, it gives you the Right to use Government to steal money from people that earn it?

[hippie_hunter]

so if this thing does pass hippie hunter maybe then there will be no military area only access? they'll be able to use any facility. and you guys are not going to get the tax hike. you don't make that kind of money. I doubt many, if any of us here on the board make a million a year. so quit saying it's going to cost you.

First of all, I never talked about myself paying more. However, since you bring that up, you are freaking delusional if you think that you won't be paying more.

There aren't enough rich people to pay for this plan and you can only tax them so much. They along with the middle class are the driving factors of the economy. Saying that taxing the rich will pay for everything is flat out wrong and inaccurate. But let's say that that the rich can pay for this plan, however Obama does not want to reform Social Security but keep it the way it is by taxing the rich, or for anything else he wants to do that's expensive he says that taxing the rich will pay for it all. Sorry, but for all that he wants to do, you're going to have to do more than just tax the rich. Already he's attempting to make us pay more in taxes through the Waxman-Markley bill that would increase our energy costs through taxation. And his administration is currently discussing on taxing the middle class to pay down the deficit and health care plans.

Second, the military hospitals would still be military only access because they are property of the US military and they generally don't allow regular civilians on military bases. They have nearby civilian hospitals.

So yeah, why don't you quit drinking the Kool-Aid and wake up to reality and see that President Obama is spending way too much money in general to not raise taxes on the general populace. Because they're talking about it right now
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090803/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_economy

[chaseter]

What about the military, is that run well by the government?
Imo, it isn't run great. The military does an oustanding job and I applaud the men and women that do their job to defend this country. But, the military has a long history of bad management because people in a comfy chair back here in the states think they know what is going on. But, it is probably, if not definitely the best run institution we have here and the military does a pretty damn good job. However, government run institutions like USPS, Amtrak, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, Education, etc... All of those are failures on behalf of the government and you can now add GM and Cash for Clunkers as well as banks. And people want them to run our Healthcare?

Here is a nice little article from Wall Street Journal columnist John Gordon:



Governments are run by politicians, not businessmen
Politicians need headlines
Governments use other people’s money
Government does not tolerate competition
Government enterprises are almost always monopolies
Government is regulated by government
Overall, the government is going to get into healthcare. They are going to offer insurance, a public option, to anybody that wants it. They are going to tax at first people that make over 250 grand. Well, that includes small businesses and large businesses. Since they are going to be paying into the government run system, why would they also pay for private insurace for their employees? Their employees would then be on the government's system and that will begin to put insurance companies out of business and decrease competition. Then, they will tax the middle class because the top 5% cannot pay for the whole system to run and also work on getting us out of the massive debt we are in. So, middle class families will be paying for the government run healthcare if they aren't already on it from their employers. So, why would they pay for two forms of health coverage? They will drop out of their private insurance and that will be the final nail in the coffin for most insurance companies, which equals thousands to millions more jobs lost. In the end, we have total government control over our health care. Why would anybody want that:huh:

[Hobodeluxe]

and I have some Ocean Front Property in Arizona I would like to sell you...

show me in the bill where they take over hospitals and private doctor's practices then.

[BlackLantern]

the government doesn't pay on time like private insurance companies do....if a doctor doesn't get paid, they can't staff properly, buy quality supplies and provide a decent level of care

[Bob ROARman!]

show me in the bill where they take over hospitals and private doctor's practices then.

You just can't trust the government with anything. That's about as simple as it gets. They don't care.

[SuBe]

show me in the bill where they take over hospitals and private doctor's practices then.
Who does the Private Doctors answer to? The people paying the Bill. Who pays the bill? GOVERNMENT.

[Compi716]

Hey guys, I know I'm late jumping in, but I just wanted to share a few thoughts.

I've gotta make this brief because I have to be up for labs at 6 butttt....


as a medical student, this proposal sequence scares the pants off of me and everyone else at my school.

NO ONE has a RIGHT to health care. Life, Liberty, and the PURSUIT of Happiness. Not the guarantee. That's the first thing to remember. Second thing should be the founding fathers intention to create a country based on states rights. Remember, they were rebelling AGAINST the British Empire, they founded a country based on the idea that a large centralized government CANNOT fairly govern it's people. That's why the original central government only had the right to maintain an army and print money. (and a few other things here and there ;) )

Lets fast forward a couple hundred years. We now have a President who says we HAVE to provide healthcare to EVERYONE, because it's a RIGHT of a U.S. citizen?
Who is going to provide said healthcare? The same people who brought us the IRS and the DMV? Anyone remember getting their drivers license? Yeah, that was a fun 6 hour wait...

Let me share some anecdotes with all of y'all.

When my aunt lived in England, the family pediatrician advised her flying all 3 kids to the U.S. for medical treatment, because standard, routine treatments would take months to receive there. (I'm not talking massive thoracic surgery here, this is basic immunizations and such)

My friend from Canada, lets call her Karen, LOVES socialized medicine. She'd have to, she's been taught how wonderful it was since before she could walk. She threw shot put in highschool , highly competitive. Competitive enough that she was being watched by college scouts from across the U.S. and Canada. And then she blew out her knee. Bad.
So she went to get it fixed.

Canadian Socialized Medical system timeframe : 6 MONTHS for basic radiography, an additional 12 to 18 months following that before surgery.

American Privatized Medicine: Scans (MRI, radiography, whatever) within 24 hours, surgery next week with a top notch orthopedist.

Which do you think she chose?


The point is, everyone brags on how great universal healthcare is, but when it's time to put up or shut up, everyone turns to the U.S.


Doctors HATE the large HMO's, and government intervention (medicare/medicaid) is hated as well.
Imagine providing a service, and then waiting YEARS to be paid. That happens now, to many many Doctors across the country, thanks to care&caid.

Now imagine how much worse it would get...

Speaking for myself (the only person I'm qualified to speak for) it isn't fair to the Medical community. By the end of my four years in school, I will have accumulated almost a quarter million dollars in debt, not counting undergrad, just to become a certified doctor. Just a few years ago, it wasn't at all unusual to see residents working 36 hour shifts, 70+ hour weeks.

And now you're going to FORCE us to recognize further government payment?

let me present a hypothetical situation,

You drive up to Bob's auto repair because you need your brakes completely overhauled.
Now, Bob does the work, and the cost is 400 dollars. That 400 dollars goes toward covering Bob's rent, the parts he used, his other overhead costs, and he pockets some to help put his kids in braces.
400 dollars is a fair price.

Now lets say you decide to only pay him 50, and he HAS to take it.

Sucks doesn't it?
It's not really fair is it?
That's the steps the government is moving towards.
In every other profession in the world, the person who provides the service determines the price. But not in Medicine.

And now the government wants to stick its tentacles in even deeper?
Is it any wonder we're seeing a mass exodus of our best medical talent to Hong Kong and other free-market areas of the globe?

I'm off to bed, I have to be up in 5 hours.

Thanks for your time.
Thank you.

[Malice]

show me in the bill where they take over hospitals and private doctor's practices then.

I am not insulting your intelligence, so please forgive me if it sounds that way.

But what part do you not understand?
Like the FBI or police say....FOLLOW THE MONEY.

The Government is the end result in the payments here.
They then set prices...and set coverage...

Lets say, they allow anyone to have a completely independent healthcare.
This coverage is going to cost far more, because thru taxes, you are already paying down the cost of government healthcare.

No real healthcare provider will be able to live if the government does this as far as I can see. They will not be able to compete in prices. They will have far better coverage, just will cost far more. So they will end up going under, except a few independent coverages for the filthy rich, where it does not matter anyways.

[chaseter]

Obama and the Democratic mob congress are the reason I decided not to apply to medical school and instead pharmacy school. I would not want to be a physician on government payroll and I would not want my practice run by them either. Universal Health Care is going to happen. And, if Obama is elected for a second term, I believe we will begin transitioning to the single payer system before he is out of office in year 8. Medicare and Medicaid are already nightmares, now imagine that if it were the entire system. It would just suck to work so hard to become a physician and then have your salary capped by the pay czar and be told how to run your business by the government that is in total control of your profession. Good luck with your studies Sugarush and I wish you the best.

[chaseter]

Lets say, they allow anyone to have a completely independent healthcare.
This coverage is going to cost far more, because thru taxes, you are already paying down the cost of government healthcare.

No real healthcare provider will be able to live if the government does this as far as I can see. They will not be able to compete in prices. They will have far better coverage, just will cost far more. So they will end up going under, except a few independent coverages for the filthy rich, where it does not matter anyways.
Exactly what I have said:bh: High five.

Now, I will drive down to Houston and we can go patrol the border together because we are ignern't Texuns that dun't know nuthin.

[Hobodeluxe]

so you guys think that the insurance companies are your best bet? of course most of you are young and have no family. that's when they hit you. you have no idea how much it costs. 6-800 a month in most cases unless your employer is pitching in a little and even then it's 4-600.
you have any idea what kind of "tax" that is.
and you pay for years then they drop you if you have something they don't cover. or if they find a loophole in the contracts their lawyers write.
or if it runs above their ceiling.
and heaven forbid you get sick then lose your job. you're farked. you lose everything you could possibly ever have.

but hey there's no downsides to what you got right?

[Hobodeluxe]

so you guys think that the insurance companies are your best bet? of course most of you are young and have no family. that's when they hit you. you have no idea how much it costs. 6-800 a month in most cases unless your employer is pitching in a little and even then it's 4-600.
you have any idea what kind of "tax" that is.
and you pay for years then they drop you if you have something they don't cover. or if they find a loophole in the contracts their lawyers write.
or if it runs above their ceiling.
and heaven forbid you get sick then lose your job. you're farked. you lose everything you could possibly ever have.

but hey there's no downsides to what you got right?

[chaseter]

Once again and again and again, we need insurance reform. The system we have isn't perfect. But, throwing everthing away for government run health coverage is dumb. Why not fix what isn't working instead of trying to fix what already works? If one of your light bulbs goes out on a fixture like a ceiling fan, do you replace the other 2 or 3 bulbs as well? How does that make sense?

[chaseter]

Once again and again and again, we need insurance reform. The system we have isn't perfect. But, throwing everthing away for government run health coverage is dumb. Why not fix what isn't working instead of trying to fix what already works? If one of your light bulbs goes out on a fixture like a ceiling fan, do you replace the other 2 or 3 bulbs as well? How does that make sense?

[Hobodeluxe]

Once again and again and again, we need insurance reform. The system we have isn't perfect. But, throwing everthing away for government run health coverage is dumb. Why not fix what isn't working instead of trying to fix what already works? If one of your light bulbs goes out on a fixture like a ceiling fan, do you replace the other 2 or 3 bulbs as well? How does that make sense?

the public option will pass. even if Reid has to pull a procedural reconciliation and get it by with 51 votes.

[Kelly]

Hey guys, if you don't want to waste time listening to your Congressman (Democratic Congress) here are their talking points....might save you some time, because I have a feeling they will answer every question using this memo.

It will be interesting for me to have this out, as I watch them do their interviews. Should be entertaining....



http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2009/07/democrats-over-august-insurers-are-the-enemy.php?page=1


I hope all the NBC networks, CBS, ABC, and CNN have done their homework on the Health Care Reform, so they can ask some good solid, informative questions that can get some real answers.

[SuBe]

the public option will pass. even if Reid has to pull a procedural reconciliation and get it by with 51 votes.
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

Alexander Tyler on the Fall of Greece

[Kelly]

the public option will pass. even if Reid has to pull a procedural reconciliation and get it by with 51 votes.


You are right, it probably will, in that manner...

Because, THAT'S WHAT THE U.S. CITIZEN WANTS....*insert a massive amount of sarcasm here....*





Such Bulls***!

[Hobodeluxe]

You are right, it probably will, in that manner...

Because, THAT'S WHAT THE U.S. CITIZEN WANTS....*insert a massive amount of sarcasm here....*

Such Bulls***!

It's what this citizen wants.

it's time the insurance lobbyists didn't get their way for once.

[Hobodeluxe]

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

Alexander Tyler on the Fall of Greece

Nice quote. I saw a lot of posts like that when Bush got elected. Then when he decided to do Iraq. They were really effective.

[Kelly]

Yeah....right.....ok...sure.


Let's talk that "Lawyer Up Lobby"....yeah.....let's make sure they don't get what they want. WAIT, BUT THEY ARE......oh my.

[Marlboro Man]

If there is a public option, then doesn't that mean people won't have to give up their private insurance if they don't want to? That's what the word "option" means, that there is a choice between the two.

I don't like the idea of government-run healthcare. I have good insurance through my employer right now, with great benefits, so if I am told that I have to give that up for some mediocre program, then I'm going to be pissed. But, if this is something which gives people a choice between programs, a choice which could be economically viable for the lower-middle class, then I can probably support it. From what I can tell, the people who will be taxed are those who already make more than enough money anyway.

[Kelly]

If there is a public option, then doesn't that mean people won't have to give up their private insurance if they don't want to? That's what the word "option" means, that there is a choice between the two.

I don't like the idea of government-run healthcare. I have good insurance through my employer right now, with great benefits, so if I am told that I have to give that up for some mediocre program, then I'm going to be pissed. But, if this is something which gives people a choice between programs, a choice which could be economically viable for the lower-middle class, then I can probably support it. From what I can tell, the people who will be taxed are those who already make more than enough money anyway.

Unless you want to "change" your private insurance....then that option kinda falls flat.

There's this tiny little difference between "keep" and "change".....seems to have fallen through the cracks....its a pesky little devil of a difference...

[Marlboro Man]

Unless you want to "change" your private insurance....then that option kinda falls flat.

There's this tiny little difference between "keep" and "change".....seems to have fallen through the cracks....its a pesky little devil of a difference...

From what I understand the option to change to a private insurer still exists under this plan.

[Kelly]

From what I understand the option to change to a private insurer still exists under this plan.

There is a "Limitation On New Enrollment" section of the bill. Pg. 16 of the bill....if people want to change their private health care insurer they better do it before the bill becomes law.


And some other interesting thoughts...

z-1ZfFBMf8s

[SentinelMind]

http://www.breitbart.tv/uncovered-video-obama-explains-how-his-health-care-plan-will-eliminate-private-insurance/

Obama claims he supports single payer universal healthcare.
This video shows Obama saying a public option will likely put private insurance out of business in about 15 to 20 years.

Out of the man's mouth. President Obama is not a fool, he knows what he's doing.

[Kelly]

Ouch......I hate it when my words come back and bite me in the ass....

Obama lost some booty with that one.

[SuBe]

How can a Private Insurers compete against a Government plan with no regard for profit, if they run in the red, they just increase taxes? They will only care if they keep political power, that is it. So, they use focus groups and say that the opposition only wants to take "your" health care away. They will remain in power forever. They don't care about YOU, they only care about their power over YOU!

[SentinelMind]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-Bpshk5nX0

Democratic Senator Arlen Specter defending rushing through bills that have not been read thoroughly...pertinent to healthcare.

[Hobodeluxe]

bullcrap on the rushing through without reading it crap. the damn thing hasn't even been reconciled yet. the things in it have been knocked around for months. there's something like 120+ republican added amendments to it. they're stalling. letting the corporate media and their "grassroots" teabagging protesters form the national narrative and intimidate the legislators.

don't let them kid you that they don't know what is in it.

[BlackLantern]

well they never read the Patriot Act, so why should I think they would read this??

[chaseter]

Nobody read the Patriot Act, nobody read the Stimulus Bill, and nobody will read this if it is too long. They make bills long for a reason; so nobody will read them and they can sneak in whatever they want.

[chaseter]

bullcrap on the rushing through without reading it crap. the damn thing hasn't even been reconciled yet. the things in it have been knocked around for months. there's something like 120+ republican added amendments to it. they're stalling. letting the corporate media and their "grassroots" teabagging protesters form the national narrative and intimidate the legislators.

don't let them kid you that they don't know what is in it.
Then why does our own president not know what is in it? He is saying (insert Republican scare tactic) won't happen and promises us that (insert false promise) will happen when the friggin bill he didn't write says different. He won't read it and he will sign on the dotted line. Remember when he said the stimulus bill had no pork in it? Just look back in this thread, he has been proven wrong on numerous occasions on things he has said being directly contradicted in the healthcare bill that didn't get passed. I applaud some of those bluedog Dems and Republicans putting their foot down on that stupid pile of partisan crap.

Obama also was trying to rush it through. What's the hurry? Do you think they can tackle such a comprehensive system like healthcare in a couple of months? Let me answer for you....No.

[Hobodeluxe]

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb33/hobodeluxe/8-3-09.gif

[BlackLantern]

too bad that isn't time lapse...the government won't pay doctors, providers, etc on time....then hospitals and doctors can't pay their staff, which means quality of service suffers....etc

[hippie_hunter]

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb33/hobodeluxe/8-3-09.gif

That comic is horribly inaccurate on account that private insurance pays the doctor much faster than government insurance. Again, I had government insurance, I know this from personal experience.

[Kelly]

My hope is that the news stations really do their homework on this, and ask solid questions. I want some answers during August.

[Bob ROARman!]

You're setting yourself up for a massive let down if you expect that. All media is owned by corporations. And the government, both political parties, are essentially owned by a lot of those same corporations. They are all one big family. News stations, or channels like CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, you cannot rely on any of them for actually questioning the government seriously. All they do is repeat what's told to them to us.

[Paradyme]

Here’s a Second Opinion

By Scott W. Atlas

Medical care in the United States is derided as miserable compared to health care systems in the rest of the developed world. Economists, government officials, insurers, and academics beat the drum for a far larger government role in health care. Much of the public assumes that their arguments are sound because the calls for change are so ubiquitous and the topic so complex. Before we turn to government as the solution, however, we should consider some unheralded facts about America’s health care system.

1. Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers. Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the United Kingdom and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

2. Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians. Breast cancer mortality in Canada is 9 percent higher than in the United States, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher, and colon cancer among men is about 10 percent higher.

3. Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries. Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit from statin drugs, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease, are taking them. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons, and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

4. Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians. Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate, and colon cancer:

•Nine out of ten middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to fewer than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).


•Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a Pap smear, compared to fewer than 90 percent of Canadians.


•More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a prostatespecific antigen (PSA) test, compared to fewer than one in six Canadians (16 percent).


•Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with fewer than one in twenty Canadians (5 percent).

5. Lower-income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report “excellent” health (11.7 percent) compared to Canadian seniors (5.8 percent). Conversely, white, young Canadian adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower-income Americans to describe their health as “fair or poor.”

6. Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the United Kingdom. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long—sometimes more than a year—to see a specialist, have elective surgery such as hip replacements, or get radiation treatment for cancer. All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada. In Britain, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.

7. People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and British adults say their health system needs either “fundamental change” or “complete rebuilding.”

8. Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the “health care system,” more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared with only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).

9. Americans have better access to important new technologies such as medical imaging than do patients in Canada or Britain. An overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identify computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade—even as economists and policy makers unfamiliar with actual medical practice decry these techniques as wasteful. The United States has thirty-four CT scanners per million Americans, compared to twelve in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has almost twenty-seven MRI machines per million people compared to about six per million in Canada and Britain.

10. Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations. The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other developed country. Since the mid- 1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to U.S. residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined. In only five of the past thirty-four years did a scientist living in the United States not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.

Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and care for the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html


Enjoy the read.

[Shifty]

No.2 is related to low levels of vitamin D. There have been studies that the more north you go in North America the higher the cancer rates are. More so in the larger cities. This is due to lack of sunlight, not enough milk or not taking vitamin D supplements. Those in rural areas tend to be outdoors more than those living in cities.
A vitamin D deficiency leads to poor health and a greater risk of cancer (breast, prostate and colon being the main three). The vast majority of Canadians should be taking a vitamin D supplement everyday (and Americans north of Texas should be too). A bottle costs $4 and will last about 9 months, take one very small tablet a day. The provincial and federal governments should get their act together and promote this.

[Kelly]

They have also found that people who are obese also have a major Vitamin D deficiency....

[Kelly]

No.2 is related to low levels of vitamin D. There have been studies that the more north you go in North America the higher the cancer rates are. More so in the larger cities. This is due to lack of sunlight, not enough milk or not taking vitamin D supplements. Those in rural areas tend to be outdoors more than those living in cities.
A vitamin D deficiency leads to poor health and a greater risk of cancer (breast, prostate and colon being the main three). The vast majority of Canadians should be taking a vitamin D supplement everyday (and Americans north of Texas should be too). A bottle costs $4 and will last about 9 months, take one very small tablet a day. The provincial and federal governments should get their act together and promote this.

That's as far as the cause, sure.....but #2 is talking about surviving cancer not reasons for getting cancer....and that probably goes to better prevention here than in Canada...

[Hobodeluxe]

That comic is horribly inaccurate on account that private insurance pays the doctor much faster than government insurance. Again, I had government insurance, I know this from personal experience.

how is it inaccurate if it said nothing about the speed of payment in any regard? sure it didn't weigh every factor (on either side of the argument) but that wasn't the point that you're attempting to deflect from was it?

what the comic was demonstrating was that ....oh look a shiny...everybody look at the shiny.

[Hobodeluxe]

Enjoy the read.

ooh another right wing lobbyist funded think tank paper.

I'm sure it will be totally objective.

[chaseter]

ooh another right wing lobbyist funded think tank paper.

I'm sure it will be totally objective.
Kind of like how you post political cartoons from farleftside.com:huh:

[Julio Alejandro]

http://www.redstate.com/jeff_emanuel/2009/08/04/call-for-informants-if-you-oppose-obamacare-the-white-house-wants-to-know-about-it/

[Hobodeluxe]

Kind of like how you post political cartoons from farleftside.com:huh:

mine wasn't presented as an objective view. it was presented as one side of the argument to address a specific inaccurate talking point. a counter point.

not as an "independent study" written by so called "authorities" on the payroll of the corporations who are one of the participants in the argument.

it's pretending to be something it's not. it doesn't operate under the name of the corporation or groups it represents. it tries to pretend it's something it's not.

I doubt thefarleft.com is a trillion dollar a year industry. but go ahead and equivocate. my source is at least honest in what they are. a liberal cartoonist's blog who's cartoon I thought made a good counter-point in a simple way.
Not a huge industry that is spending millions a day to misinform you and retain their choke hold on our economy.

[SentinelMind]

Anyone who performs research or writes and article on this controversial topic is going to have bias. I'd rather read a biased article with facts than a ridiculous cartoon that asserts that insurance companies "pay mistresses's dog."

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Gotta say, though...the Healthcare companies creait faux grassroots...Astro-turf...at anything remotely Democratic, to creat false anger protests...is pretty ****ing vile.

Like, below the belt vile...something we all know a douche bag would do.

[chaseter]

mine wasn't presented as an objective view. it was presented as one side of the argument to address a specific inaccurate talking point. a counter point.

not as an "independent study" written by so called "authorities" on the payroll of the corporations who are one of the participants in the argument.

it's pretending to be something it's not. it doesn't operate under the name of the corporation or groups it represents. it tries to pretend it's something it's not.

I doubt thefarleft.com is a trillion dollar a year industry. but go ahead and equivocate. my source is at least honest in what they are. a liberal cartoonist's blog who's cartoon I thought made a good counter-point in a simple way.
Not a huge industry that is spending millions a day to misinform you and retain their choke hold on our economy.
I would rather read an informative article than look at a cartoon.

There are lobbyist groups on both sides. Both sides do research and present it as fact to push an agenda. You have posted numbers/facts from biased sources in here yourself. The left side of the aisle had it's hands in more media outlets in the 08 election than anything I have seen before and they skewed facts and made Obama look like the second coming of Christ.

Now with healthcare, the right is making UHC look like it is all bad and the left is making it look like it will solve every problem. The single payer system is not the right answer to solve our health care problems. A single payer system will make things worse. When you have people that don't have coverage and they suddenly get it, they will flock to doctors to be seen because they will be getting FREE healthcare. People that normally couldn't afford to have expesive tests like MRIs each year because their insurance didn't cover it will now be getting every test they can think of. After each appointment, the patient leaves and the government gets billed. They will first off set salaries of all healthcare workers because they will be considered government employees. The government will take forever to pay those doctors and they already take forever with Medicare and Medicaid. If a doctor won't give you an MRI, you now can't go to another doctor and offer to pay to have an MRI because that is bribing a public official. The wait to get surgery, tests, and even see a doctor will be long.

What in that system sounds great? What in that system makes you think it is fair that people that don't have jobs deserve to get free things and send the bill to the rich? This is the land of opporunity, not the land of handouts. How is all of that going to be paid for when we are already trillions in debt? The top 5% cannot pay for UHC to run properly and they cannot pay to get us out of debt. So, what do they do? Tax everyone. FairTax is the way to go and single payer is not.

[hippie_hunter]

how is it inaccurate if it said nothing about the speed of payment in any regard? sure it didn't weigh every factor (on either side of the argument) but that wasn't the point that you're attempting to deflect from was it?

what the comic was demonstrating was that ....oh look a shiny...everybody look at the shiny.

Except the comic did say that. It was saying that all these people (insurance executives, advertising, etc) all got paid and then eventually the doctor. All while the government directly paid the doctor. So not only did it horribly mischaracterize how private medical insurance works, it implied that the government was faster at paying insurance than private insurance, which is flat out wrong.

That was the point that the comic was trying to make to criticize the insurance industry and capitalism over government run health care. Seriously, it flat out said that.

[Hobodeluxe]

Except the comic did say that. It was saying that all these people (insurance executives, advertising, etc) all got paid and then eventually the doctor. All while the government directly paid the doctor. So not only did it horribly mischaracterize how private medical insurance works, it implied that the government was faster at paying insurance than private insurance, which is flat out wrong.

That was the point that the comic was trying to make to criticize the insurance industry and capitalism over government run health care. Seriously, it flat out said that.

no it said that they get paid but the rest don't.
the 30+% of every dollar spent that goes toward their overhead.

[danielisthor]

Here's a fact...

Today while processing insurance payments, most insurance payments posted were from services rendering in the last 45 to 90 days. Medicare payments that I posted were from services in 2007. Not just some of them, ALL OF THEM.

[hippie_hunter]

no it said that they get paid but the rest don't.
the 30+% of every dollar spent that goes toward their overhead.

No it was saying that through private insurance that you have a whole bunch of greedy people getting paid before the doctor because that's how greedy the insurance companies are. It word for word said that.

It said that the doctor eventually will get paid after a large group of people. Which not only shows how greedy the insurance companies are, but they're also inefficient, unlike government health care which is plain and simple in how it works.

There's no symbolism here. It just flat out tells you the message that insurance companies are greedy and inefficient and that is why we need the public option to combat those problems.

[chaseter]

What happens when health care professionals go on strike in this country for getting their salaries set, being payed extremely late, having to go through government schtick, and having to see 100 people a day instead of seeing 25 and getting less money? What in the world would Obama do?

[danielisthor]

What happens when health care professionals go on strike in this country for getting their salaries set, being payed extremely late, having to go through government schtick, and having to see 100 people a day instead of seeing 25 and getting less money? What in the world would Obama do?

My belief is that within 20yrs, all doctors and nurses will be federal employees and won't be able to strike. There won't be any private practices anymore.

Since the Obama Admin has plans for students with federal student loans to work for the government for 10years and have those loans disappear, why wouldn't a med student with upwards of $250,000 in these student loans not become a federal doctor for 10years. The government will start taking over hospitals so these med students have places to work.

[chaseter]

That sounds so Grim:(

[Paradyme]

Gotta say, though...the Healthcare companies creait faux grassroots...Astro-turf...at anything remotely Democratic, to creat false anger protests...is pretty ****ing vile.

Like, below the belt vile...something we all know a douche bag would do.

Unless I'm misreading what you typed you're saying you believe the White House spin that all the people angry about this bill are 'false anger protests' put on by Healthcare companies?

Kinda like this article is saying


Angry Protesters Confront Democratic Lawmakers at Health Care Town Halls
The debate over President Obama's top domestic priority is escalating as Congress takes a month-long recess. Several lawmakers have been booed, jeered, and occasionally cheered by protesters on their home turfs at town hall meetings on health care reform.

The White House said Tuesday that some of the anger that Democratic lawmakers have encountered at town hall meetings over the past several days is "manufactured."

"In fact, I think you've had groups today, Conservatives for Patients Rights, that have bragged about organizing and manufacturing that anger," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said.

The debate over President Obama's top domestic priority is escalating as Congress takes a month-long recess. Several lawmakers have been booed, jeered, and occasionally cheered by protesters on their home turfs at town hall meetings on health care reform.

Gibbs singled out Rick Scott, chairman of Conservatives for Patients' Rights, as the ringleader.

"I think you've got somebody who's very involved, a leader of that group that's very involved in the status quo, a CEO that used to run a health care company that was fined by the federal government $1.7 billion for fraud. I think that's a lot of what you need to know about the motives of that group."

Scott said no needs to "manufacture" anger or concern "when 86 percent of Americans are happy with their current health care and they feel that it is threatened by a massive government take over."

"It is a shame that Mr. Gibbs chooses to dismiss these Americans and their very real concerns instead of opting to level personal attacks," he said in a statement. "The simple fact is that the more Americans learn about the president's public options plan, the more they realize it is a massive government takeover plan that will mean higher taxes, bigger deficits and interfere with their current coverage resulting in delayed or denied medical care for them and their families. That is why support for his plan is plummeting like a rock."

....
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/04/angry-protesters-confront-democratic-lawmakers-health-care-town-halls/

[Hobodeluxe]

My belief is that within 20yrs, all doctors and nurses will be federal employees and won't be able to strike. There won't be any private practices anymore.

Since the Obama Admin has plans for students with federal student loans to work for the government for 10years and have those loans disappear, why wouldn't a med student with upwards of $250,000 in these student loans not become a federal doctor for 10years. The government will start taking over hospitals so these med students have places to work.

yes heaven forbid someone not from a rich family should ever get a good solid shot at being a physician. not saying it hasn't happened. but here in the states it's not a common occurrence. you have to have the grades and some really good luck with the scholarship lottery. or join the military. this is just another option to serve the country and get something back.

quit demonizing it.

[BlackLantern]

Im all for the right to protest, but when its a meeting about something completely unrelated and you're just shouting into the middle of proceedings?? really??

[dnno1]

Then why does our own president not know what is in it? He is saying (insert Republican scare tactic) won't happen and promises us that (insert false promise) will happen when the friggin bill he didn't write says different. He won't read it and he will sign on the dotted line. Remember when he said the stimulus bill had no pork in it? Just look back in this thread, he has been proven wrong on numerous occasions on things he has said being directly contradicted in the healthcare bill that didn't get passed. I applaud some of those bluedog Dems and Republicans putting their foot down on that stupid pile of partisan crap.

Obama also was trying to rush it through. What's the hurry? Do you think they can tackle such a comprehensive system like healthcare in a couple of months? Let me answer for you....No.

He might not know word for word what is exactly in the bill, but the President does have a general idea of what the bill does and he does know what he wants to see in it. He has threatened to veto it if he doesn't see those things that he wants in it. The whole not knowing what's in it is a scare tactic in itself.

[chaseter]

Then how has he been proven wrong numerous times from what he promises and what was actually in the bill?

[chaseter]

yes heaven forbid someone not from a rich family should ever get a good solid shot at being a physician. not saying it hasn't happened. but here in the states it's not a common occurrence. you have to have the grades and some really good luck with the scholarship lottery. or join the military. this is just another option to serve the country and get something back.

quit demonizing it.
They can take out loans, they can enlist in the army, they can work and save money, etc...

Social healthcare shouldn't be an easy way for lower income kids to become doctors. That is one of the most asanine arguments I have heard in here.

[Kelly]

He might not know word for word what is exactly in the bill, but the President does have a general idea of what the bill does and he does know what he wants to see in it. He has threatened to veto it if he doesn't see those things that he wants in it. The whole not knowing what's in it is a scare tactic in itself.

That I can believe, other than....I really don't think he knows what is in this bill. Which seems to be a problem with his Spending/Stimulus Bill as well.....he seems to be finding **** in it that he probably didn't want in it...as in pork.

[Compi716]

Good read regarding healthcare: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204619004574324361508092006.html

[Kelly]

Yeah, I read that article....it is very good.

And the one thing that I think could do ALOT to take care of the "wedge" is tort reform.....something that is not found in the Health Care Reform running around Washington D.C. at the moment.



Some information on what I'm talking about...

Excess litigation has fostered an epidemic of defensive medicine, wherein doctors order more procedures than they ordinarily would to protect themselves from lawsuits. Defensive medicine increases annual medical costs by 10 percent, or $214 billion.

About 83 percent of physicians practice defensive medicine, and over a quarter of tests, procedures, referrals, and consultations are ordered out of fear of lawsuits.

Further, malpractice abuse causes physicians to leave riskier medical fields like obstetrics, neurosurgery, and emergency medicine.


http://www.tortreform.com/node/533

[dnno1]

I hope there aren't people posting here who work for these guys (http://www.politicsandtechnology.com/2007/07/make-no-mistake.html).

[The Guard]

the GOP doesn't NEED to pay people to blog attack. Many will do it for free.

[chaseter]

I hope there aren't people posting here who work for these guys (http://www.politicsandtechnology.com/2007/07/make-no-mistake.html).
Goooooooo Sarah Palin!!!


That gets me $5. You should join!

[BlackLantern]

that's just frightening....Trolls For Hire

[chaseter]

I would post like a 12 year old girl if I got paid for it.

[Kelly]

I hope there aren't people posting here who work for these guys (http://www.politicsandtechnology.com/2007/07/make-no-mistake.html).


And you don't think that the Dems do the same thing........please.


And no I don't think we do, we pretty much got rid of our one Republican troll....


As far as I'm concerned, the anger showing against this Health Care has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats.......its about spending MORE money, and really not doing alot of reforming....

There is no reform in this bill, there is more spending.......and I'm just as angry as the people at the town hall meetings, and I can assure you....NO ONE is paying me.

IT IS AMAZING TO ME, that we are looking for the "oh this is who they are", "oh they don't count because they belong to this group"...

That is ********.....how about looking and listening to these people as to WHY they are angry.

It's ridiculous......and I'm sick of it.

[BlackLantern]

thank you kel...it is NOT about party, its about spending money on a plan that isn't practical and is going to be more trouble than it's worth in the long run

[Kelly]

I don't agree with those that start screaming as soon as the Senator or whoever begins to speak. Listen to what they have to say, respect that.....and if you disagree with something they say, or they put you off, which is happening alot in these town hall meetings, then yeah.....let'um know it......let them know you are angry. CALL, WRITE, GO TO THESE MEETINGS.....and don't let them simply regurgitate talking points.....they need to answer these people's questions....and if they can't they need to say so....and if they can't, they need to wonder WHY......

[Paradyme]

thank you kel...it is NOT about party, its about spending money on a plan that isn't practical and is going to be more trouble than it's worth in the long run

It just goes to show you that they are so out of touch with regular folk that they try to convince themselves that if they aren't praised its the other side attacking them and its all a massive conspiracy brought on by the insurance companies or other entities.

[Paradyme]

I don't agree with those that start screaming as soon as the Senator or whoever begins to speak. Listen to what they have to say, respect that.....and if you disagree with something they say, or they put you off, which is happening alot in these town hall meetings, then yeah.....let'um know it......let them know you are angry. CALL, WRITE, GO TO THESE MEETINGS.....and don't let them simply regurgitate talking points.....they need to answer these people's questions....and if they can't they need to say so....and if they can't, they need to wonder WHY......

You are talking as if these politicians have a conscience. :cwink:

[Kelly]

There will be no reform if Tort Reform is not a part of it....

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3276/medicaltortcosts.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/i/medicaltortcosts.jpg/)

[SentinelMind]

yes heaven forbid someone not from a rich family should ever get a good solid shot at being a physician. not saying it hasn't happened. but here in the states it's not a common occurrence. you have to have the grades and some really good luck with the scholarship lottery. or join the military. this is just another option to serve the country and get something back.

quit demonizing it.

God forbid you get good grades to get a scholarship...or have to work or serve for your degree, or have the freedom to take out a private loan. Every degree, service, and resource should be allocated for free...:whatever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdx_2cuPgQQ

Furthermore, here are the "elective" surgeries with long waits that you and government-run healthcare supporters believe are acceptable.
And foriegn leaders that come here for our healthcare to avoid the long waits in their own government-run nightmares.

[danielisthor]

yes heaven forbid someone not from a rich family should ever get a good solid shot at being a physician. not saying it hasn't happened. but here in the states it's not a common occurrence. you have to have the grades and some really good luck with the scholarship lottery. or join the military. this is just another option to serve the country and get something back.

quit demonizing it.

I'll stop demonizing it when you stop hyping it as the best thing since sliced bread.

Your little cartoon left out some things as well in between the Government and the Doctor getting paid. How about the slew of government employees that will touch that claim before it gets paid 2 years later. Here's how it'll work. Doctor sends claim to goverment. Claim will sit in a pile waiting for somebody to look at it. Claim will be approved at the Medicare rate, which means that from an initial amount of lets say $100, the doctor will receive anywhere from $12 to $30 depending on what that service was. So, a young doctor who lets say is at least a hundred grand in debt, has to pay his self, his staff, rent and utilities, malpractice insurance, etc. etc. etc and has to do it knowing that every claim he sends out, the government cuts a majority of his bill out and then the doctor has to wait 2 years to get paid for that claim. Yeah, I can see why i should stop demonizing it.

[chaseter]

Stop demonizing demonizing.

[danielisthor]

I love demonizing, plucking souls from little kittens and turning them into demonkitties.

[Paradyme]

Ark. crowd mocks lawmakers over Obama health plan

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) - An unruly Little Rock crowd heckled and shouted at two Arkansas Democratic congressmen Wednesday, accusing them of supporting a government-backed health plan that would take away Americans' personal choice and freedom.
At one point, U.S. Rep. Mike Ross sat with his head in his hands while the crowd shouted. He and fellow Democratic Rep. Vic Snyder told audience members at a forum at Arkansas Children's Hospital that they wouldn't support a completely government-run, single-payer health insurance plan.

"But that's what Obama wants!" an audience member shouted, leading to more heckling.

Ross, who represents south Arkansas, sits on the Energy and Commerce Committee and has led his fellow Blue Dog Democrats in delaying a vote on the health care overhaul until at least September. Ross is chairman of the Blue Dogs' health care task force.

The Blue Dogs—a group of mostly Southern, fiscally conservative Democrats—have not committed to supporting or opposing the bill yet. A deal reached last week calls for exempting more small businesses from a requirement to offer coverage, cutting subsidies to help people buy health insurance and making any government-sponsored insurance plan negotiate payment rates with medical providers.

Lawmakers across the country are encountering growing public doubts about President Barack Obama's push to remake the system for providing medical care, evident in polls that find confidence in Obama's handling of the issue has fallen since January. Concerns are growing about government-run health plans, a growing federal deficit, and the impact on small businesses and end-of-life provisions.

"I've said this several times but let me see if I can make it a little more clear," Ross said. "I don't represent Speaker (Nancy) Pelosi or President Obama or (House Finance Committee Chairman) Barney Frank. I represent the people of Arkansas and I'm not voting for any bill that forces any one plan on anyone, period."

Many audience members cheered loudly when Ross said he wouldn't back anything that would provide federal funding for abortions or pay for health insurance for illegal immigrants.

But some were skeptical about the intentions of President Obama and Democrats in Congress.

Colleen Shoemaker of Bauxite apologized to the congressmen for being "out of line" and heckling them during the forum. She said the government was taking away Americans' rights.

"At this point in my life I have never seen my America turn into what it has turned into," she said. "And I don't think that representatives and senators are going to be able to (pass a plan that preserves personal freedom). I'm scared."

Though much of the crowd opposed Obama's plan, there were a few supporters.

"I'm a huge Obama fan," college student Jacob Kauffman told the crowd, which responded with a smattering of applause and a few chants of "Get a job."

Kauffman continued, "I was at mad at (Ross and Snyder) for not standing up for stronger health care reform. But after seeing this crowd tonight, I'm pleased with seeing what you have done. I've rather have you two overlook my health care plan than any private insurance bureaucrat any day."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99T32G00&show_article=1



Tempers flare in South Florida over healthcare overhaul

Confrontation over a national healthcare overhaul reached South Florida on Wednesday, when routine office hours for the staff of a Broward-area congressman turned into a raucous protest.

The incident is like others that reflect nerves frayed by the nationwide debate. Democrats decry what they describe as a mob rule orchestrated by special interests trying to protect the status quo; Republicans call it genuine grass-roots concern over a costly government takeover.

Though only a handful of constituents typically show up at the Lighthouse Point public library once a month with questions for U.S. Rep. Ron Klein's staffers -- often questions about Social Security checks or passport applications -- this time about 100 people packed the room for two hours.

The group was rowdy, rude and fired up about healthcare.

``Where the hell is Klein?'' demanded Republican activist Ana Gomez-Mallada, even though the congressman was not scheduled to be there. Others branded him a ``coward'' and a ``communist.''

From Texas to Pennsylvania, protesters have disrupted town halls. In North Florida, an effigy of a congressman, Allen Boyd, was tarred and feathered; in New York, a congressman had to be escorted to his car by police.

The rally on Wednesday in Klein's 22nd congressional district office was orchestrated by a Republican campaign rival.

The public outcries are likely to continue while Congress is in recess and members make the rounds in their hometowns.

Klein plans to hold a healthcare forum in his district this month -- via telephone.

He brushed off suggestions that he is trying to duck face-to-face encounters.

``I will compare my record on town hall meetings with anyone in the Congress,'' Klein said. ``I've always been very out there and willing to meet with people, and we're going to continue to do that.''

Klein argued that ``tele-town halls'' allow him to reach more people. He said he also will make numerous public appearances. A June meeting at Boca Raton Community Hospital drew about 75 people, his office says, while about 2,600 participated in a phone call on homeowners insurance last month.

Democratic Reps. Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Weston and Kathy Castor of Tampa are also planning tele-town halls on healthcare this month.

......

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/top-stories/v-fullstory/story/1173602.html


OMG, Its the crazies that are being paid off by insurance companies!:whatever:


Pelosi: Town Hall Protesters Are "Carrying Swastikas"

Nancy Pelosi claims protesters are "carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on healthcare."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/08/05/pelosi_town_hall_protesters_are_carrying_swastikas .html



GOP Senator: White House Encroaching on First Amendment

ABC News’ Rick Klein reports:

A Republican senator is calling for the White House to suspend a new project that asks members of the public to flag “fishy” claims about President Obama’s health care plans, arguing that it raises privacy concerns and will serve to chill free speech.

Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, is sending a letter to the White House today asking the president to “cease this program immediately” -- or to explain how Americans’ privacy will be protected if e-mails are forwarded to the White House as requested.

“I am not aware of any precedent for a President asking American citizens to report their fellow citizens to the White House for pure political speech that is deemed ‘fishy’ or otherwise inimical to the White House’s political interests,” Cornyn writes

“I can only imagine the level of justifiable outrage had your predecessor asked Americans to forward emails critical of his policies to the White House. I suspect that you would have been leading the charge in condemning such a program -- and I would have been at your side denouncing such heavy-handed government action.”

Yesterday, White House director of new media Macon Phillips wrote a blog posting urging readers to flag questionable claims about health care proposals.

“There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.”

Cornyn specifically asks whether those who quote the president’s past statements -- such as his 2003 statement that he was a “proponent” of single-payer care -- qualifies as “disinformation.” He also asks what actions the White House would take against those engaging in “fishy” speech.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/08/gop-senator-white-house-encroaching-on-first-amendment.html


I can't believe more people aren't talking about this.

[Kelly]

Yep, they got them some snitches....AND a new "Fight the Negative Media" Czar.


*shakes head*.....it's amazing.

[chaseter]

Carrying swastikas....umk.

[Kelly]

Yeah, the Swastikas in the room kinda wiped out the roar of the legitimate people wanting their voices to be heard. I mean, ya know....you see a swastika and automatically go deaf.

[BlackLantern]

Yeah, the Swastikas in the room kinda wiped out the roar of the legitimate people wanting their voices to be heard. I mean, ya know....you see a swastika and automatically go deaf.

Big smile!!! Big smile!!!!

[Paradoxium]

There will be no reform if Tort Reform is not a part of it....

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3276/medicaltortcosts.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/i/medicaltortcosts.jpg/)One of the reason why medical cost is as high as they are, is the over percaution not to screwup and get a lawsuit. Sometimes to the point of excessive. One of the ways Obama's plan to "save money" is to cut down on these precautions. So medical tort costs will inevitable sky rocket no matter what they say they will do.

[Kelly]

One of the reason why medical cost is as high as they are, is the over percaution not to screwup and get a lawsuit. Sometimes to the point of excessive. One of the ways Obama's plan to "save money" is to cut down on these precautions. So medical tort costs will inevitable sky rocket no matter what they say they will do.

Exactly, that is what the article states that I posted before the chart. I found the chart later after the article.

They are ordering tests that may not actually be needed......of course along with malpractice insurance. Texas just made some huge changes in Tort Reform....and it is already bringing specialists back to Texas and lowering costs as we speak. It was almost immediate.

[chaseter]

Yay Texas:up:

[Hobodeluxe]

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[marcofthebeast]

I can't believe more people aren't talking about this.

Reason.tv posted a pretty good video about it.

r9bWqcZnrDg

[Kelly]

Yeah, that's the new "Fight the Negative Media" czar.

[marcofthebeast]

Yeah, that's the new "Fight the Negative Media" czar.

Here is the original video that they were going off of.
fubrjxYMzeM

I'm not a conspiracy minded person, but this is just strange. Its some kind of passive aggressive authoritarianism.

[Kelly]

Hmmmmm....that's one way to describe it.

[chaseter]

Yeah...I heard about this on Sirius. It made me laugh so hard that idiots can get elected and make 6 figures a year from us paying them to be idiots.

You can go ahead and report this post to the whitehouse. God I hate politicians.

[chaseter]

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So is this one of those left wing lobbyist funded think tank things?

I'm sure it will be totally subjective. See what I did there! That site supports Michael Moore and he is a cherry picking, misinformation hack.

HAHA I love how a site/person complains that another site is biased when they are spewing biased tripe as well. Hypocrisy at its best:up:

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Unless I'm misreading what you typed you're saying you believe the White House spin that all the people angry about this bill are 'false anger protests' put on by Healthcare companies?



They are.

The Republicans useage of the "shouting down" of people pretty much backs it up. Comments on the "anger" by Republicans themselves, kinda makes it look like they were armed and ready to go the day after these things began.

It's quite pathetic, actually.

I believe there are a people who are scared, and angry. But...over losing the election, I think.

The angry mobs aren't helping themselves with strung up dolls of politicians, and looking like they're going to burst a vein. It's all helping the dems, I think.

[Kelly]

I disagree totally....I've watched many of these, and whether they are bussed in or not....which happens all the time. They are angry, they have a right to be angry, and they are passionate about it. Are you going get looneys with these things? Yes, anytime you have a microphone and the media you have loons.

I think we are passed the "they are angry about losing" schtick....its getting old. Most of the interviews that I've seen, the people were not Republicans, some were Democrats most were Independents......I'm an Independent, and I'M PISSED.....very angry with all of this, and I could very well be one of those people questioning my Representatives....and it has NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, to do with losing. The candidate I voted for....WON.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Where was this anger before, though? This outrage at the government?

It just seems to reinforce the perception that some of these people are just sore losers.

[Kelly]

Has this happened yet?

YPsU-kSBnwI


Loons are everywhere...

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I think we are passed the "they are angry about losing" schtick....its getting old. Most of the interviews that I've seen, the people were not Republicans, some were Democrats most were Independents......I'm an Independent, and I'M PISSED.....very angry with all of this, and I could very well be one of those people questioning my Representatives....and it has NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, to do with losing. The candidate I voted for....WON


So...are you going to the protests?

And, my understanding is that they shout down people and prevent discussion from other citizens wanting to speak matters. Which is ****ed up, I think.

[Kelly]

Where was this anger before, though? This outrage at the government?

It just seems to reinforce the perception that some of these people are just sore losers.


You had people protesting the war....

You had people, hell protesting Bush everywhere he went....ARE YOU KIDDING?

And when the "decisions were being made", except for TARP, at the time the decisions were made, the US citizen, according to polls were agreeing to the decisions, it wasn't until later that people began to be angry, and the protests began....

I CAN ASSURE YOU, WITH OUT ANY DOUBT.....that had there been these types of townhall meetings BEFORE the decision to go into Iraq, Democrats, Republicans and Independents would have been happy, happy....lets go. 2 years in, have town hall meetings and noooooo way....a different meeting would have been seen. We just didn't have those...BUT, every speech Bush made, protesters yelled and screamed.

TARP, hell on Fox people were PISSED, AND PISSED ROYALLY.....had we had town hall meetings you would very likely have seen the same thing.

Chris, you are talking about changing something that 75% of Americans are happy with.......THEY DO BELIEVE that costs need to come down, and this bill is not looking like that is the main thing. SO OF COURSE THEY ARE PISSED. ....are you kidding me, you can't see that?

In the beginning of the Iraq war, when the Congress voted, the majority of Americans were ok with it....so comparing these two things is wrong.

TARP, is more of something to look at, AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WERE PISSED.......if you didn't see that, you were asleep...lol

[ChrisBaleBatman]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/07/pelosi-protesters-includi_n_253762.html

You think that baby knows what a Nazi is?

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Loons are everywhere...


Quite a different thing, though.

Coulter, purposely, says things to rile people up and incite them.

Quite different from what's supposed to be a debate about OUR future.

And, I'm not saying there aren't lefty loons, mind you. Just that the loons on the right are pretty much standing out right now, with sings that says Obama is a Nazi (as if they even know what a Nazi is...), etc.


You had people protesting the war....

You had people, hell protesting Bush everywhere he went....ARE YOU KIDDING?



Do you think they're the same people "afraid that America is dead", that are protesting at these Democratic meetings?


And when the "decisions were being made", except for TARP, at the time the decisions were made, the US citizen, according to polls were agreeing to the decisions, it wasn't until later that people began to be angry, and the protests began....

I CAN ASSURE YOU, WITH OUT ANY DOUBT.....that had there been these types of townhall meetings BEFORE the decision to go into Iraq, Democrats, Republicans and Independents would have been happy, happy....lets go. 2 years in, have town hall meetings and noooooo way....a different meeting would have been seen. We just didn't have those...BUT, every speech Bush made, protesters yelled and screamed.

TARP, hell on Fox people were PISSED, AND PISSED ROYALLY.....had we had town hall meetings you would very likely have seen the same thing.

Chris, you are talking about changing something that 75% of Americans are happy with.......THEY DO BELIEVE that costs need to come down, and this bill is not looking like that is the main thing. SO OF COURSE THEY ARE PISSED. ....are you kidding me, you can't see that?

In the beginning of the Iraq war, when the Congress voted, the majority of Americans were ok with it....so comparing these two things is wrong.

TARP, is more of something to look at, AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WERE PISSED.......if you didn't see that, you were asleep...lol


So, do you think this is about OTHER stuff? And not just health care?

But anger over other things?

[Kelly]

And so you are going to judge everyone there, that is angry about their health care being "changed" in a way they do not believe is right by that?

Well I guess I need to judge the 1.5 billion Muslims around the world, by the .000000005 that are terrorists....



Ridiculous.

[Compi716]

Listen, people do crazy things when they get angry. Just goes to show you, government run ANYTHING goes against the fundamentals of this country.

[Kelly]

Quite a different thing, though.

Coulter, purposely, says things to rile people up and incite them.

Quite different from what's supposed to be a debate about OUR future.

And, I'm not saying there aren't lefty loons, mind you. Just that the loons on the right are pretty much standing out right now, with sings that says Obama is a Nazi (as if they even know what a Nazi is...), etc.



Do you think they're the same people "afraid that America is dead", that are protesting at these Democratic meetings?



So, do you think this is about OTHER stuff? And not just health care?

But anger over other things?


These are not Democratic Meetings.......what the heck? Wouldn't be much of a debate about our future, if all that comes out of these "democratic meetings" as you call them is one side. These people finally have a chance to voice their opinions, to the faces of their representatives....of course they are going to...because apparently their phone calls, emails and letters aren't getting through. 75%......seventy-five percent of Americans are happy with their health care......and you don't think some of that 75% is angry enough to say something about it when given a chance...?

And yes, there is anger over the spending......hell I've been angry about that since TARP..... do you also realize that the majority of Americans are not happy with "Cash For Clunkers" (http://www.examiner.com/x-13600-Phildadelphia-Opinion-Polls-Examiner~y2009m8d5-Poll-Public-remains-leery-as-consumers-line-up-for-Cash-for-Clunkers).... WE ARE TIRED OF THE SPENDING.....and they feel like now that they are talking to brick walls...I can understand that.

Look, I'm not saying that these signs, loons, screaming morons are right....I believe both sides should listen and be respectful. But, I do not have a problem with the passion, and anger that I see at these meetings.....I think it is heartfelt, I think it is real, and I think Congress needs to take them seriously, instead of trying to find every way they can to not take them seriously.....

[ChrisBaleBatman]

And so you are going to judge everyone there, that is angry about their health care being "changed" in a way they do not believe is right by that?

Well I guess I need to judge the 1.5 billion Muslims around the world, by the .000000005 that are terrorists....



Ridiculous.


That's not even remotely the same thing, though.

Not even remotely.

Listen, people do crazy things when they get angry. Just goes to show you, government run ANYTHING goes against the fundamentals of this country.


Government run anything? Certainly not everything.

Things like this, kinda makes the White House spin stick.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/06/health-care-protester-exp_n_253579.html

[Kelly]

Well, then let me put it this way....


Generalizations equal ignorance IMO.

[Paradyme]

They are.

The Republicans useage of the "shouting down" of people pretty much backs it up. Comments on the "anger" by Republicans themselves, kinda makes it look like they were armed and ready to go the day after these things began.

It's quite pathetic, actually.

I believe there are a people who are scared, and angry. But...over losing the election, I think.

The angry mobs aren't helping themselves with strung up dolls of politicians, and looking like they're going to burst a vein. It's all helping the dems, I think.

You really need to take off your blinders. Neither side is FOR YOU. The longer you continue to trust them the more rights you will lose. Its time to start doing things that is correct for our country not by what your party believes to be correct.

This is NOT a good bill.

I'm glad these people are yelling at their representatives. They have a right to do it and in fact I think it is even more understandable since these politicians haven't been listening to the people for quite some time now.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, then let me put it this way....


Generalizations equal ignorance IMO.


Ever heard of "if you smelt it, you dealt it"?

I think that's the concept being used in painting a broad picture of these protests.

Besides, it's the same thing as trying to pain it as an "American uprising to take back America" or something. It's, in a nutshell, the same thing as trying to paint all of those protesters as honest, hard working, ordinary joes who don't want America "gone".

As for ignorance, that is quite abundant I believe:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/get-your-goddamn-governme_b_252326.html

"I got a letter the other day from a woman. She said, 'I don't want government-run health care. I don't want socialized medicine. And don't touch my Medicare.'"


Someone reportedly told Inglis, "Keep your government hands off my Medicare."
"I had to politely explain that, 'Actually, sir, your health care is being provided by the government,'" Inglis told the Post. "But he wasn't having any of it."




It's no wonder with "very serious" analysts like Arthur Laffer are appearing on CNN and saying things like this:

"If you like the post office and the Department of Motor Vehicles and you think they're run well, just wait till you see Medicare, Medicaid and health care done by the government."

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I have an honest question.

Hillary and Hussein want to have government sponsored healthcare.

Anyone know any possible way they are going to do this without having our income taxes be 50% or more?


I did it just to see reactions...I for one dont care...



You should have gone with Diane and Hussein.

Would have been 100% funnier.

[Kelly]

I won't generalize the protesters as all good ole' hard working Americans, any more than I will generalize that they are there simply because they are pissed that their candidate didn't win.

Generalizing is generalizing as far as I'm concerned.

[StorminNorman]

People that are trying to argue that these protests about government Healthcare are purely staged demonstrations by Republican manipulators needs to take a look at the polling. The fact is that the Democrats vision for Healthcare reform isn't wanted by Americans.

Now are their Republicans using that for political means? Absolutely, just like Democrats used the Iraq War against Republicans.

[Marlboro Man]

Anyone see the image of the teabagger in Maryland hanging Rep. Kratovil in effigy outside of his office? Or hear about the person who said that Rep. Brad Miller "could lose his life" if he voted for healthcare? There are extremists on the fringe who are threatening violence against elected officials over this bill. I think it's something to be concerned about. And if I was an elected official, I certainly wouldn't stand for this kind of B.S.

[StorminNorman]

What would you do if you were an elected official? Tell them to stop politely?

[Paradyme]

Black Conservative Activist Beaten at Town Hall Meeting

By Rizzuto

Fri Aug 07, 2009 - This turns the narrative we’ve been hearing for the past few weeks on its head doesn’t it? St. Louis Post-Dispatch:

Kenneth Gladney, a 38-year-old conservative activist from St. Louis, said he was attacked by some of those arrested as he handed out yellow flags with “Don't tread on me” printed on them. He spoke to the Post-Dispatch from the emergency room of the St. John's Mercy Medical Center, where he said he was waiting to be treated for injuries to his knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face that he suffered in the attack. Gladney, who is black, said one of his attackers, also a black man, used a racial slur against him before the attack started.

“It just seems there's no freedom of speech without being attacked,” he said.
Question: Is this a teachable moment? Perhaps the president can have Mr. Gladney and his assailants over to the white house for a few whisky sours. Or does that offer only stand for Harvard professors?

h/t Patterico

Update Here's the video of the incident. Notice the SEIU thugs in the purple shirts. Is this Obama's idea of "Punching back twice as hard?"

Update II The attorney of Kenneth Gladney, the man who was attacked by the thugs, has released a statement claiming race was a factor in the beating.
August 7, 2009

Dear Mr. Hennessy:

I am Kenneth Gladney’s attorney. Kenneth was attacked on the evening of August 6, 2009 at Rep. Russ Carnahan’s town hall meeting in South St. Louis County. I was at the town hall meeting as well and witnessed the events leading up to the attack of Kenneth. Kenneth was approached by an SEIU representative as Kenneth was handing out “Don’t Tread on Me” flags to other conservatives. The SEIU representative demanded to know why a black man was handing out these flags. The SEIU member used a racial slur against Kenneth, then punched him in the face. Kenneth fell to the ground. Another SEIU member yelled racial epithets at Kenneth as he kicked him in the head and back. Kenneth was also brutally attacked by one other male SEIU member and an unidentified woman. The three men were clearly SEIU members, as they were wearing T-shirts with the SEIU logo.

Kenneth was beaten badly. One assailant fled on foot; three others were arrested. Kenneth was admitted to St. John’s Mercy Medical Center emergency room, where he was treated for his numerous injuries. Kenneth was merely expressing his freedom of speech by handing out the flags. In fact, he merely asked people as they exited the town hall meeting whether they would like a flag. He in no way provoked any argument or altercation, as evidenced by the fact that three assailants were arrested.

We hope that Kenneth fully recovers from his injuries; however, he is in great pain at this time. We will be pursuing legal action at our discretion. This was a truly senseless hate crime carried out by racist union thugs. Regretfully, Representative Carnahan’s statements blaming Kenneth for being a disruptive force are wholly untrue and slanderous. We would like to think that an elected official in Representative Carnahan’s position would gather accurate information before carelessly rushing to judgment.

Kenneth supports conservative ideals, although he subscribes to no particular political party. We are calling on the SEIU, Representative Carnahan, and President Obama to condemn the racist actions of these union thugs. In the days to come, we will be investigating whether these thugs are working at the behest of Representative Carnahan and how strong their alliances to various organizations–such as ACORN–may be.

We hope the St. Louis Tea Party and tea party organizations around the country will protest Representative Carnahan’s offices and also protest SEIU offices in every major city across the U.S. These Democratic strong-arm tactics must end now.

Regards,

Attorney David B. Brown

http://conservativepunk.com/articles/2150/


....

[Kelly]

Yeah, one of those that was arrested was a reporter....lmao.

[chaseter]

So does Kenneth get to have a beer with Obama? Someone probably e-mailed the White House what he was doing like a good patriot!

Ridiculous that a) Union thugs were hired to be crowd control, b) that he was beaten for no reason, and c) that people that have a dissenting opinion are labeled as trouble makers. I guess that Civil Rights activists were trouble makers for protesting? I guess that Gays are trouble makers for protesting prop 8?

[Marlboro Man]

For an attorney, Mr. Brown certainly doesn't mind politicizing this attack and turning it against Rep. Carnahan, even though he didn't have anything to do with it.

[chaseter]

I guess Carnahan was there???

[Malice]

I find this insane and fascinating at the same time

[Marlboro Man]

Carnahan can't control his spectators. If conservatives think Democrats have control over their crowds, then I want Mike Castle to apologize for letting that crazy woman babble on about the birth certificate at his town hall last month.

[Kelly]

Well, I guess both sides are trying to stack the deck at these town hall meetings...

[Marlboro Man]

Ann Kirkpatrick really sums up how I feel about these disruptions: "These 'chats' are meant to give people a chance to let me know what they need and what's important to them, and today's disruptions meant that a lot of folks did not get that chance. I look forward to more public events, but more importantly I look forward to a return of civility and respectful dialogue where the focus is on the people and not scoring political points."

If they want to protest, fine. But they should be respectful, not jackasses.

[Franklin Richards]

Town meetings are not sporting events.



:thing: :doom: :thing:

[chaseter]

Carnahan can't control his spectators. If conservatives think Democrats have control over their crowds, then I want Mike Castle to apologize for letting that crazy woman babble on about the birth certificate at his town hall last month.
It was Union thugs that did this and I am guessing they hired them to be crowd control. I don't know the procedures for hiring at events like that and who was ultimately in charge but when stuff like that happens, of course you are going to get in trouble.

Someone getting physically beaten is not the same thing as someone babbling.

[Marlboro Man]

It was Union thugs that did this and I am guessing they hired them to be crowd control. I don't know the procedures for hiring at events like that and who was ultimately in charge but when stuff like that happens, of course you are going to get in trouble.

Someone getting physically beaten is not the same thing as someone babbling.

He's still not responsible for their actions. His office probably requested them to show up, but he's not responsible for how they acted, therefore it's not his responsibility to apologize.

[chaseter]

He's still not responsible for their actions. His office probably requested them to show up, but he's not responsible for how they acted, therefore it's not his responsibility to apologize.
So when a concert venue hires crowd control and one of the workers severely beats someone then they are not liable? If you hire someone, then you are also liable for their actions.

If it didn't matter, why didn't he just hire some rapist and molesters if it doesn't matter how they act:huh: I would sure shut up if I had a convicted murderer threatening to rape me or murder my family!!!:dry: The next step is to hire guys with assault weapons!

[Marlboro Man]

I'm pretty sure Carnahan didn't hire the SEIU, and I doubt he asked them volunteer to act the way they did.

[Franklin Richards]

Altamont Free Concert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamont_Free_Concert)



:doom: :doom: :doom:

[chaseter]

Altamont Free Concert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamont_Free_Concert)



:doom: :doom: :doom:
Except that the guy was giving out free flags and not running to the stage with a weapon:huh: I don't think anybody would fault the SEIU if they stopped a potential murder.

[chaseter]

I'm pretty sure Carnahan didn't hire the SEIU, and I doubt he asked them volunteer to act the way they did.
If they just showed up on their own accord then it isn't Carnahan or anybody else's fault. If an agreement for the SEIU to handle crowd control happened, then it is the SEIU and Carnahan or whoever else's fault.

It is common sense. The people you hire or get to volunteer are under you and you are directly responsible for them and their actions.

[Marlboro Man]

Except that the guy was giving out free flags and not running to the stage with a weapon I don't think anybody would fault the SEIU if they stopped a potential murder.

No, the conservative groups who ask these protestors to be disruptive would say Carnahan and the SEIU were trying to take their guns away and limit free speech.

[chaseter]

No, the conservative groups who ask these protestors to be disruptive would say Carnahan and the SEIU were trying to take their guns away and limit free speech.
So passing out flags outside of the center is disruptive?

[redfirebird2008]

So passing out flags outside of the center is disruptive?

No but this is:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/images/SEIUTweet.png

[Marlboro Man]

So passing out flags outside of the center is disruptive?

You know, conservatives have a right to cry foul at this event, because someone was injured.

But they really don't have any ground to stand on when they publish ONE instance of a conservative protester being injured or shouted down, when these groups are calling on their followers to be disruptive at similar events across the country.

And when they are called out for being jackasses, these same groups turn around and say that they have a right to free speech, they have a right to ask questions... except that they are acting irrationally and aren't achieving anything aside from explimifying their wing nut status and preventing intelligent, concerned individuals from asking legitimate questions.

I would also think that this isn't the whole story, because with conservative groups lately, they always leave out some big chunk of information. They talk about these groups being so huge and successful, even though they're only made up of a few loud-mouthed idiots who can't locate the state they live in on the map. I'd think that this guy wasn't just handing out flags, that he probably said or did something provocative. It doesn't justify the response he got, but if he's acting like a jerk, sometimes this stuff happens.

[chaseter]

Who the hell is that? And, why is Twitter relevant to anything???

[chaseter]

So Marlboro, were the Civil Rights activists that were doing sit-ins and walking/picketing deserving of being beaten? They were after all being "disruptive".

[Marlboro Man]

I agree, Twitter is irrelevant. It's not like Twitter is a form of media people can use to incite hate and call for violence.

[redfirebird2008]

So Marlboro, were the Civil Rights activists that were doing sit-ins and walking/picketing deserving of being beaten? They were after all being "disruptive".

What about the health care protestors who assaulted a Democratic congressman? Do you support their behavior?

[Marlboro Man]

So Marlboro, were the Civil Rights activists that were doing sit-ins and walking/picketing deserving of being beaten? They were after all being "disruptive".

This isn't nearly the same thing. These protesters are showing up, interrupting Congressmen, inciting hate and spewing ignorance. It's one thing to be a respectful protester, like the folks at the sit-ins years ago. It's another thing for Larry the Cable Guy to show up and yell at his elected representative for wanting to socialize their Medicare and accusing the President of being a foreign-born radical.

[chaseter]

What about the health care protestors who assaulted a Democratic congressman? Do you support their behavior?
Did I say that I did:huh: Did I say that I support these protesters unruly actions:huh:

Oh wait, I said I was against a Union thug group singling out someone and senselessly beating them because of the actions of others. You hit the nail on the head!!!

[chaseter]

This isn't nearly the same thing. These protesters are showing up, interrupting Congressmen, inciting hate and spewing ignorance. It's one thing to be a respectful protester, like the folks at the sit-ins years ago. It's another thing for Larry the Cable Guy to show up and yell at his elected representative for wanting to socialize their Medicare and wanting to know where the President's birth certificate is.
So nobody protested anything the previous administration did:huh: I quite even remember Democrats calling the shoe throwing guy a hero and they thought it was hilarious.

Some of the blatant hypocrisy in here smells horrible.

[Franklin Richards]

At what point do the people who went after Tiller become the people who went after a congressman or a senator or the President?


:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Marlboro Man]

So nobody protested anything the previous administration did:huh: I quite even remember Democrats calling the shoe throwing guy a hero and they thought it was hilarious.

Some of the blatant hypocrisy in here smells horrible.

I didn't justify their actions. But then again I don't recall any democrat protest groups going to Republican townhalls and shouting out their congressman.

But I take it you're of the mind that since the Democrats may have been unruly years ago, they deserve to see their Congressmen assaulted, hanged in effigy, threatened, and shouted at by a bunch of ignorant twits?

[redfirebird2008]

This isn't nearly the same thing. These protesters are showing up, interrupting Congressmen, inciting hate and spewing ignorance. It's one thing to be a respectful protester, like the folks at the sit-ins years ago. It's another thing for Larry the Cable Guy to show up and yell at his elected representative for wanting to socialize their Medicare and accusing the President of being a foreign-born radical.

Yeah, it's a poor comparison. There's a lot of misinformation flying around about end-of-life care (this is just an outright lie that's being spread through email propaganda), Medicare (many do not realize that it is run by the government), and Obama's public option (many think it's the same as single payer when it really is not). I feel bad for the protesters because they are lobbying for the insurance companies to be able to continue screwing them over. They're just pawns in the game being misled by corporate misinformation.

[chaseter]

I didn't justify their actions. But then again I don't recall any democrat protest groups going to Republican townhalls and shouting out their congressman.

But I take it you're of the mind that since the Democrats may have been unruly years ago, they deserve to see their Congressmen assaulted, hanged in effigy, threatened, and shouted at by a bunch of ignorant twits?
I am of the mind that when the shoe is on the other foot, you have no right to ***** and whine when you did the exact same thing for the last 8 years. That is called hypocrisy, I call out hypocrisy.

At the end of the day from the news that we have, a peaceful protester outside of the town hall meeting was beaten by the SEIU. You seem to be justifying that beating and pointing the finger at others' actions.

[chaseter]

Yeah, it's a poor comparison. There's a lot of misinformation flying around about end-of-life care (this is just an outright lie that's being spread through email propaganda), Medicare (many do not realize that it is run by the government), and Obama's public option (many think it's the same as single payer when it really is not). I feel bad for the protesters because they are lobbying for the insurance companies to be able to continue screwing them over. They're just pawns in the game being misled by corporate misinformation.
Corporate misinformation to government misinformation...YAY FOR US!

[Marlboro Man]

I am of the mind that when the shoe is on the other foot, you have no right to ***** and whine when you did the exact same thing for the last 8 years. That is called hypocrisy, I call out hypocrisy.

At the end of the day from the news that we have, a peaceful protester outside of the town hall meeting was beaten by the SEIU. You seem to be justifying that beating and pointing the finger at others' actions.

I'm not justifying the beating. I said that they didn't have a right to attack him and that he has a right to be pissed about it. I also said that I doubt we're getting the full story here. All we have for a source is a letter written by the obviously biased attorney for this guy posted on a conservative website.

Also, no, I don't think Democrats interrupted Republican congressmen. I don't think liberal groups sent emails to their followers asking them to go to townhalls and shout their representatives out, or accuse the president of being involved in some conspiracy to destroy the country.

[Franklin Richards]

Conservatives don't want to solve the problem. They want to win.



:thing: :doom: :thing:

[redfirebird2008]

I don't think liberal groups sent emails to their followers asking them to go to townhalls and shout their representatives out, or accuse the president of being involved in some conspiracy to destroy the country.

Actually that's exactly what they are doing now with these counter-protest groups at town hall meetings. And there are plenty of people on the left who believe Bush was in on a conspiracy to destroy the country. And then there's people like me, who think both mainstream parties are in on a conspiracy to destroy the country. There's more evidence on my side of things than for either the liberal or conservatives who think their side is the only correct side on every issue. When I see both parties screwing the public and financial oligarchs always benefiting at the expense of the American people, I can't help but think we have all been sold down the river by the two parties.

[StorminNorman]

Yes. All conservatives. They don't care about fixing the Health care system at all.

[Franklin Richards]

Do I really have to say "most" or "alot" in every sentence I write? It's like having to say, "In my opinion" after everything.


Some things are given.



:thing: :doom: :thing:

[chaseter]

Conservatives don't want to solve the problem. They want to win.



:thing: :doom: :thing:
Kind of like Democrats:huh: Who want to do things their way only and will spit in their opponents faces to win and then begin to slowly silence the opposition to stay in power. They are both the same thing, they only differ in policy.

[StorminNorman]

Do I really have to say "most" or "alot" in every sentence I write? It's like having to say, "In my opinion" after everything.


Some things are given.



:thing: :doom: :thing:

Are Conservative groups using this for political means? Absolutely. Just like Democrats used the Iraq War for political means in 2006. Does that mean they are wrong? Absolutely not.

Democrats want to win, just like Conservatives want to. It goes beyond just issue and everything about politics.

[Franklin Richards]

I don't remember this kind of discourse during the Bush Regime. Even during the buildup to the War.


I do remember the Dixie Chicks being silenced however.



:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Franklin Richards]

I don't remember this kind of discourse during the Bush Regime. Even during the buildup to the War.


I do remember the Dixie Chicks being silenced however.



:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Marlboro Man]

Kind of like Democrats:huh: Who want to do things their way only and will spit in their opponents faces to win and then begin to slowly silence the opposition to stay in power. They are both the same thing, they only differ in policy.

That makes sense. Because if someone came to one of my speaking engagements and started shouting at me, accusing me of wanting to kill old people, and claiming that the President was born in Kenya and is a terrorist and that I'm enabling some kind of Marxist/ Hitler-like plot, I wouldn't want them to shut up either.

You can't have a civil discussion with people are too loaded up on crazy to carry out a rational conversation.

[redfirebird2008]

Kind of like Democrats:huh: Who want to do things their way only and will spit in their opponents faces to win and then begin to slowly silence the opposition to stay in power. They are both the same thing, they only differ in policy.

And even then they do not differ in policy very much. The end game, even with slight differences in policy, is still the same: American people get screwed over. And if I'm right, the sovereignty of the people and the nation will be dissolved in the near future. At that point they will truly own us, especially once they get everyone using RFID chips with their credit cards, bank accounts, etc. all linked to it.