Tombstone and The Big Man. One in the same?

[Valorman]

I know this has been discussed abroad the other boards in this particular forum, and I'm aware that creating a thread on this may seem redundant or unnecessary for many, but I've run into many people who still hold some confusion about the subject of L. Lincoln and i thought those who came here looking for an answer or clarification would find it easier to just find this title among the others rather than searching through 80-some pages for a clear idea.

(Also, i have to admit I'm not among the most popular forum members here, and i tend to be overlooked in some cases, and i thought this particular message deserved more attention)

So, the big question is: Is Tombstone really the big man?

My answer? No.L. Thompson Lincoln AKA. Tombstone is a high level enforcer, one to take on formal matters of business and empire rather than, say, getting his hands dirty or making his presence in the "family" all too obvious- That's hammerheads job. Tombstone is the physical presence of The Big man's empire, but he is not the true "Big Man" himself, this is obvious once we look at a few key points:

-Tombstone never once refers to himself as the big man, in fact, he only speaks of the big man in third person,"His empire, etc." going so far as to refer to his own lack of knowledge when it comes to his employer. I.E."The Big Man... Whomever he might be, has nothing against heroes"
-Tombstones only references to himself are when making the deal with spider-man. the offer to work "for him" may be one of three things, either A: tombstone is switching narratives to create confusion, B: He is attempting to thwart Big Man by buying Spidey out himself, or C: he is referring to working under him, as another branch of the Big Mans empire. The third seems the most likely.
-The character of Mr. Foswell is definetly more than a simple cameo. Foswell, as many of you are already aware, is the identity of The Big Man in the comic books. Some have argued that Foswell has been made a journalist or bugle employee in contrast with the character change ala Montana to shocker, i argue that this simply doesint make sense. Montana was made the shocker in order to create a coherent story for the characters origins, and Greg Weisman has stated that they would never change characters or throw in twists to the original spider-man canon if they were found unnecessary. Foswell would not be introduced, and then left aside, by the creative team we have right now, his introduction is designed to be much more than it currently is.

-Foswell, as well, is an obvious prop for foreshadowing, you can see so in the cinematography of the show, as in some of his lines. For example, Foswells introduction to us is the elevator scene in which rhino needs to get to the 22nd floor to find peter parker. Foswell, standing in center of the elevator, is enveloped in the silhouette of the rhino... a small man masked by a giant figure, an exact depiction of the big man's true nature. Later on, during foswells conversation with peter, he says himself "If their is a big man out there, his name isint Lincoln."

All of this is a dramatic set up, little clues designed to be unseen by the common viewer, but once they're examined it becomes quite clear where the writers are going with this.


That being said, i want to commend the staff who've brought this show to us, I'm 18 now and i have no shame in telling my friends i jump out of my bed every Saturday morning, giddy like a child at Christmas, right before the show. i think we've all gotten a chance to believe in spidey again and I'm grateful that I'm a part of this fan base.

[Sarcastic Fan]

To those confused over the way Tombstone spoke of the Big Man, well... have you ever met a real figure involved in Organized Crime? Well, the smart ones do talk like that. Vague and through innuendo. Even to other members of Organized Crime.

Why? In case of wiretaps. Or so their subordinates can't say under oath "he specifically told me to kill this guy."

[Spiderine]

I know this has been discussed abroad the other boards in this particular forum, and I'm aware that creating a thread on this may seem redundant or unnecessary for many, but I've run into many people who still hold some confusion about the subject of L. Lincoln and i thought those who came here looking for an answer or clarification would find it easier to just find this title among the others rather than searching through 80-some pages for a clear idea.

(Also, i have to admit I'm not among the most popular forum members here, and i tend to be overlooked in some cases, and i thought this particular message deserved more attention)

So, the big question is: Is Tombstone really the big man?

My answer? No.L. Thompson Lincoln AKA. Tombstone is a high level enforcer, one to take on formal matters of business and empire rather than, say, getting his hands dirty or making his presence in the "family" all too obvious- That's hammerheads job. Tombstone is the physical presence of The Big man's empire, but he is not the true "Big Man" himself, this is obvious once we look at a few key points:

-Tombstone never once refers to himself as the big man, in fact, he only speaks of the big man in third person,"His empire, etc." going so far as to refer to his own lack of knowledge when it comes to his employer. I.E."The Big Man... Whomever he might be, has nothing against heroes"
-Tombstones only references to himself are when making the deal with spider-man. the offer to work "for him" may be one of three things, either A: tombstone is switching narratives to create confusion, B: He is attempting to thwart Big Man by buying Spidey out himself, or C: he is referring to working under him, as another branch of the Big Mans empire. The third seems the most likely.
-The character of Mr. Foswell is definetly more than a simple cameo. Foswell, as many of you are already aware, is the identity of The Big Man in the comic books. Some have argued that Foswell has been made a journalist or bugle employee in contrast with the character change ala Montana to shocker, i argue that this simply doesint make sense. Montana was made the shocker in order to create a coherent story for the characters origins, and Greg Weisman has stated that they would never change characters or throw in twists to the original spider-man canon if they were found unnecessary. Foswell would not be introduced, and then left aside, by the creative team we have right now, his introduction is designed to be much more than it currently is.

-Foswell, as well, is an obvious prop for foreshadowing, you can see so in the cinematography of the show, as in some of his lines. For example, Foswells introduction to us is the elevator scene in which rhino needs to get to the 22nd floor to find peter parker. Foswell, standing in center of the elevator, is enveloped in the silhouette of the rhino... a small man masked by a giant figure, an exact depiction of the big man's true nature. Later on, during foswells conversation with peter, he says himself "If their is a big man out there, his name isint Lincoln."

All of this is a dramatic set up, little clues designed to be unseen by the common viewer, but once they're examined it becomes quite clear where the writers are going with this.


That being said, i want to commend the staff who've brought this show to us, I'm 18 now and i have no shame in telling my friends i jump out of my bed every Saturday morning, giddy like a child at Christmas, right before the show. i think we've all gotten a chance to believe in spidey again and I'm grateful that I'm a part of this fan base.
Ummm....yep.

[Webhead2006]

Yea good post valorman i been saying this in the episodes thread. I still think foswell is the big man and tombstone is as u said either working for him or he is trying to take him on and take over his empire and all that. And yea this is a different sitution then the shocker one since they didnt include herman schultz and made montana shocker for a more organic feel for the show. But since they have foswell in the show and he was big man in the comics i dont see why they would put him in the show as cameo/nods to the comics and make him just a reporter character when they could have used other bugle reporters like ben urich or others(cant think of any others off top of head). So i really hope they are just tricking us/others into thinking tombstone is big man but then later it is revealed to be foswell which would make it a bigger shock to the viewers and to peter and other bugle characters.

[Venom 1988]

While I wouldn't be surprised if Tombstone is just a front and Foswell is the real deal, I would give the creators serious props if Tombstone was indeed the real Big Man. This in a sense is just a different universe, so of course they have to change things up. We were all expecting the big reveal to be Foswell and the producers knew that but BAM they threw us off and showed us Tombstone ugly mug instead. :up:

I'm hoping they do the same for Hobgoblin, when they reveal who he is I want to be surprised and not expect Kingsly. Otherwise whats the point of the mystery, if we know whos under the mask?

[Webhead2006]

True they can do what they want with the show but why put foswell in just for being a red herring/cameo-nod appearance for comics fans to notice. It is a waste to his character then if he doesnt become who he really is. And i have said this a few times i dont want to see people keep getting mergered together. And about voice its the same dam voice actor playing him and all that so maybe if he isnt the same two characters he just wasnt doing a variety to his voice for them.

[Superhero 101]

But why would a guy like Toombstone be working for Foswell i mean he is more powerful then him and he beat the crap out of Spidey.

[Venom 1988]

True they can do what they want with the show but why put foswell in just for being a red herring/cameo-nod appearance for comics fans to notice. Simple to throw us off.

[Webhead2006]

Yea it could be to just throw us off but then if u look at its a waste to his character if thats all he is there for. They as i said before could have just as easily used any other bugle reporter characters from the comics.

[spider-neil]

to be honest I hope tombstone isn't the big man, the reveal was way too easy and too early.

[Webhead2006]

yea that is what i hope to why would they reveal big man this soon i hope it is just to throw us off for now. We just have to wait and see what they plan to do with big man and all that.

[Sarcastic Fan]

I love how everyone ignores what I say about mobster talk.

[Valorman]

To those confused over the way Tombstone spoke of the Big Man, well... have you ever met a real figure involved in Organized Crime? Well, the smart ones do talk like that. Vague and through innuendo. Even to other members of Organized Crime.

Why? In case of wiretaps. Or so their subordinates can't say under oath "he specifically told me to kill this guy."

Theirs mis-direction, and theirs purposeful narrative. I believe Tombstone wasint simply referring to himself for the duration of his conversation because he would, then, have switched through three narratives within the five minutes of his introduction (His income/Whenever I chose/ Assaulted my person)

The idea of Tombstone being the big-man is a cover, another layer meant to keep those lucky enough to get that high up the ladder intimidated, and those under them working like good pawn. I'd argue that hammerhead doesint even know Lincoln isint the big man, obviously Osborn doesint know the difference either. If hammerhead knew a skinny creep like foswell was running the show, I'm pretty sure he'd try to overthrow him, but TOMBSTONE? nah, that's someone you respect.

It all comes down to Brains and Brawn working hand in hand. foswell's created this whole, foolproof ruse, but doesint have the real muscle to carry it out, and foswell desires this, it's as easy as realising he creates an alias named "The Big Man". Tombstone, while smart in his own right, faces so much prejudice over his appearance and the like that beginning with a plan like this would be near impossible... but put the two together? moonlighting as one, the other hidden in plain sight? that's how you run an organization as shifty as the big man empire.

[Valorman]

I love how everyone ignores what I say about mobster talk.


Haha, i just typed everything i did up there while you posted about being ignored.

How the web weaves huh?

[Sarcastic Fan]

Haha, i just typed everything i did up there while you posted about being ignored.

How the web weaves huh?

Heh, no worries.

But the thing is, John Gotti walked around openly as a crime lord. Everyone knew who and what he was. Didn't mean they could arrest him.

[Spider-ManHero12]

As I have said a few times, I do think that Tombstone really isn't the Big Man. I mean, nobody expects Frederick Foswell to be the Big man and nobody did expect him to be the Big Man in the comics either. So that's one of the reasons I think Foswell is the Big Man.

[Valorman]

Heh, no worries.

But the thing is, John Gotti walked around openly as a crime lord. Everyone knew who and what he was. Didn't mean they could arrest him.

And foswells gone a step above that. He has a figure walking around, an "alleged" crime lord, only dismissed to us by foswells word, while he walks around laughing at everyones back.

[Venom 1988]

I mean, nobody expects Frederick Foswell to be the Big man We do though :oldrazz:and nobody did expect him to be the Big Man in the comics either. Of course, back in the 60s.

[Webhead2006]

Ok ok you know who is really the big man, its aunt may lol.

[CaptainCanada]

But why would a guy like Toombstone be working for Foswell i mean he is more powerful then him and he beat the crap out of Spidey.
Because Foswell is smarter/a better criminal mastermind?

I think it's a feint; the kids who are the show's intended audience will be stunned when the villain isn't the intimidating, voiced-by-FauxKeith David guy, but the nerdy reporter. And it'll throw older fans for a loop.

[vinny2]

Ok ok you know woh is really the big man, its aunt may lol.

Oh please. Everyone knows that she's really Carnage :cwink:.

[Valorman]

i hope she is.

Edit: I'm KIDDING.

[Spider-ManHero12]

We do though :oldrazz: Of course, back in the 60s. Indeed. :hyper:

[Venom 1988]

Aunt Carnage strikes again

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/FlawlessVictory_photos/auntcarnage.jpg

[vinny2]

Aunt Carnage strikes again

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/FlawlessVictory_photos/auntcarnage.jpg

I said it then and I'll say it now: Aunt Carnage looks raw!

[Superhero 101]

Aunt Carnage strikes again

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/FlawlessVictory_photos/auntcarnage.jpg

HAHAHAHA
:spidey: MY Spider Senses Are Tingling

[Prefix]

I know this has been discussed abroad the other boards in this particular forum, and I'm aware that creating a thread on this may seem redundant or unnecessary for many, but I've run into many people who still hold some confusion about the subject of L. Lincoln and i thought those who came here looking for an answer or clarification would find it easier to just find this title among the others rather than searching through 80-some pages for a clear idea.

(Also, i have to admit I'm not among the most popular forum members here, and i tend to be overlooked in some cases, and i thought this particular message deserved more attention)

So, the big question is: Is Tombstone really the big man?

My answer? No.L. Thompson Lincoln AKA. Tombstone is a high level enforcer, one to take on formal matters of business and empire rather than, say, getting his hands dirty or making his presence in the "family" all too obvious- That's hammerheads job. Tombstone is the physical presence of The Big man's empire, but he is not the true "Big Man" himself, this is obvious once we look at a few key points:

-Tombstone never once refers to himself as the big man, in fact, he only speaks of the big man in third person,"His empire, etc." going so far as to refer to his own lack of knowledge when it comes to his employer. I.E."The Big Man... Whomever he might be, has nothing against heroes"
-Tombstones only references to himself are when making the deal with spider-man. the offer to work "for him" may be one of three things, either A: tombstone is switching narratives to create confusion, B: He is attempting to thwart Big Man by buying Spidey out himself, or C: he is referring to working under him, as another branch of the Big Mans empire. The third seems the most likely.
-The character of Mr. Foswell is definetly more than a simple cameo. Foswell, as many of you are already aware, is the identity of The Big Man in the comic books. Some have argued that Foswell has been made a journalist or bugle employee in contrast with the character change ala Montana to shocker, i argue that this simply doesint make sense. Montana was made the shocker in order to create a coherent story for the characters origins, and Greg Weisman has stated that they would never change characters or throw in twists to the original spider-man canon if they were found unnecessary. Foswell would not be introduced, and then left aside, by the creative team we have right now, his introduction is designed to be much more than it currently is.

-Foswell, as well, is an obvious prop for foreshadowing, you can see so in the cinematography of the show, as in some of his lines. For example, Foswells introduction to us is the elevator scene in which rhino needs to get to the 22nd floor to find peter parker. Foswell, standing in center of the elevator, is enveloped in the silhouette of the rhino... a small man masked by a giant figure, an exact depiction of the big man's true nature. Later on, during foswells conversation with peter, he says himself "If their is a big man out there, his name isint Lincoln."

All of this is a dramatic set up, little clues designed to be unseen by the common viewer, but once they're examined it becomes quite clear where the writers are going with this.


That being said, i want to commend the staff who've brought this show to us, I'm 18 now and i have no shame in telling my friends i jump out of my bed every Saturday morning, giddy like a child at Christmas, right before the show. i think we've all gotten a chance to believe in spidey again and I'm grateful that I'm a part of this fan base.
My sentiments exactly.

[ReggieWhiteJr]

At first I thought Tombstone was the Big Man as well until I read some posts at the Toon Zone forum that got me thinking otherwise.

Mad props to Greg W and co. for making our brains think about a mystery like this on a Saturday morning cartoon. I can't remember the last time I felt like this about a show. :word:

[storyteller]

I think even Tombstone knows that physical strength is irrelevant. I mean Rhino could probably take on Tombstone but he doesnt have the brains to run an organization. Tobstone in this series isnt just some lackey but he isn't at the very top.

[Spiderine]

While I wouldn't be surprised if Tombstone is just a front and Foswell is the real deal, I would give the creators serious props if Tombstone was indeed the real Big Man. This in a sense is just a different universe, so of course they have to change things up. We were all expecting the big reveal to be Foswell and the producers knew that but BAM they threw us off and showed us Tombstone ugly mug instead. :up:

I'm hoping they do the same for Hobgoblin, when they reveal who he is I want to be surprised and not expect Kingsly. Otherwise whats the point of the mystery, if we know whos under the mask?
Many of us die hard comic book readers may know how the "Big Man" saga played out and those of us who go to these boards to discuss these endless scenarios on a daily basis may know but many casual viewers and fans of the show would have no earthly idea that Foswell would be the real man behind the scenes so its still a mystery twist to them. How many of these posters come on the boards and never even knew about the Big Man. Besides, if it was Foswell which we know in the comics it is still interesting to see it play out for the first time on an animated show. Either way, whether it's Tombstone, Foswell or perhaps someone else it is interesting to say the least.

[IamProdigy]

Tombstone is the guy that pretends to be the Big Man, only to keep Foswell hidden in secrecy, and Hammerhead is he guy that work for the Big Man in the way that he hired new muscles. I have an idea that we won't see the revelation of Foswell as the Big Man until season two sometime.

[Webhead2006]

Yea i still hope tombstone is just the front to keep us thinking who is really big man.

[ReggieWhiteJr]

Considering Tombstone could easily snap Foswell in two, I think Foswell must pack a lot of neurons if he indeed is the Big Man. In any case, if Tombstone is a cover, props to Big Man thinking to provide such. If he had one back in the comics, he probably wouldn't have been busted so easily.

[Farren]

I -Tombstone never once refers to himself as the big man, in fact, he only speaks of the big man in third person,"His empire, etc." going so far as to refer to his own lack of knowledge when it comes to his employer. I.E."The Big Man... Whomever he might be, has nothing against heroes"
-Tombstones only references to himself are when making the deal with spider-man. the offer to work "for him" may be one of three things, either A: tombstone is switching narratives to create confusion, B: He is attempting to thwart Big Man by buying Spidey out himself, or C: he is referring to working under him, as another branch of the Big Mans empire. The third seems the most likely.
The third person stuff was very suspicious to me as well. I really hope Foswell is the Big Man, because at some point I'd like to see an adaption of the ASM #51-52 story whereJJJ gets saved by Foswell.

[Spider-ManHero12]

The third person stuff was very suspicious to me as well. I really hope Foswell is the Big Man, because at some point I'd like to see an adaption of the ASM #51-52 story whereJJJ gets saved by Foswell. Agreed, that arc was fantastic and I'm sure if it was adapted in the show, it would be fantastic in the show as well.

[The Lizard]

I've always thought Tombstone was a cool villain who could have made a great secondary enemy in one of the Spidey movies.

First, he's an organized crime strongarm, so you have the great scenario of Spidey up against the Maggia (Mafia) types who aren't supervillains themselves until Tombstone walks into the room.

Second, Tombstone isn't a flashy, costume-wearing crazy supervillain. He just wears expensive suits, but his size and creepy Solomon Grundy-type look makes him a total badass.

Third, even though he looks like an albino zombie, Tombstone is African-American. I noticed that both of his thugs in the Rhino episode of Spectacular were black, so I'm sure that the writers of the show are aware of this. Since I'm guessing that the Kingpin won't be black (or around at all for now) in this series, Tombstone makes a good African-American supervillain to fill that gap.

No disrespect to the Hypno-Hustler intended. :woot:

[IamProdigy]

Another reason why the Spider-Man movies were awful...if Raimi liked the classic villains, he could've have some sort of crime-wave in NYC while Spidey was there...battling super-villains and also people like Hammerhead, Tombstone, Enforcers, et cetera. Would've also been cool if in the movie, Osborn was working alongisde them too and just keep that storyline to movie number two, and possibly three. IMO.

[sauronthegreat]

I think that this mystery will finally be revealed in "The Uncertainty Principle". The title suggests it. If we take in consideration that Chameleon is cast for this season, the logical way for him to appear, judging by the title, is in that episode. Maybe there is some connection between Foswell and Chameleon, not that I would want that, but maybe Chameleon runs all the criminal activities from the shadows and Foswell is his public identity. Definitely, if not now but in the future, would love to see Chameleon as a criminal mastermind, not a petty crook or an enforcer with shapeshifting abilities.
But all we can do is speculate and derive our own conclusions, and that's what makes this show so rich and abundant. We may forge our own scenarios, but I have no doubt that in the end theirs will prevail. By now the writers proved that, and not only the writers but the whole team involved in this project.

[Webhead2006]

I thought chameleon wasnt in season 1.

[Spider-ManHero12]

I thought chameleon wasnt in season 1. I think he was assuming judging by the title of the episode.

[Webhead2006]

Yea cause i remember reading he isnt due to be in the show yet maybe season 2 or if not 2 3 because we know who is in the rest of the season. goblin, ock, black cat/ quetin beck, sinster 6, venom, i believe are rest of season 1 foes right.

[Spiderine]

I wonder who is in Episode 9 The Uncertainty Principle?

[Webhead2006]

yea i too, i thought it was to be kraven and the chick calscipo(spelling) but they are showing up in two right? or are they still confirmed for season 1?

[Spider-ManHero12]

I think the 9th episode may just deal with Peter getting Symbiote. I mean, it is a Villian afterall.

[Webhead2006]

Well that isnt likely to happen greg as said the final arch which is episode ep10-13 will be about the symboite and venom and alot figure peter will have it for two episode and then venom for 12 and 13. Or peter has it for 3 episodes and venom just for 1 in ep 13.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Well that isnt likely to happen greg as said the final arch which is episode ep10-13 will be about the symboite and venom and alot figure peter will have it for two episode and then venom for 12 and 13. Or peter has it for 3 episodes and venom just for 1 in ep 13. Very true, I guess we will just have to wait and see.

[Web-Head]

yea i too, i thought it was to be kraven and the chick calscipo(spelling) but they are showing up in two right? or are they still confirmed for season 1?
I thought Kraven and Calypso we're confirmed for season 2, weren't they?

[Spider-ManHero12]

I thought Kraven and Calypso we're confirmed for season 2, weren't they? Yeah, I think they were confirmed for the first episode of season 2. I'm not 100% sure though.

[Webhead2006]

yea thats what i was wondering at first i thought they were confirmed for season one but its probably one of the episodes in the second 13.

[ReggieWhiteJr]

With the summary for "The Catalyst" we should see more of Tombstone and get more on this mystery. I sure hope we do. I'm thinking about this stuff while I'm at work and laying in bed at night! :woot:

[Styleshift]

Excellent insight...
I must admit I've noticed all those things as well. (minus the shadow)
these writers are very clever...and that only adds to the reason I believe Harry will be revealed as the goblin next ep. if not theres nothing wrong with being...well...wrong. lol.

[MattXG]

The Big Man is the Kingpin. :D

[Spiderine]

Kingpin is a Big Man. But he ain't The BigMan.

[Webhead2006]

How many times do we have to have this talk. The big man is not king pin they dont have the rights to use the king pin due to he is tied up under the daredevil license which is still under fox's control. The big man is an early mob boss from the comics who appeared over 10 years before kingpin ever did. In the comics big man's id was revealed to be fredrick foswell a reporter for the bugle.(he is seen in the show small guy with orange hair and mustafe(spelling?)). For the show right now we are lead to believe they are having tombstone be the id of the big man but i am still hoping he is just the cover for foswell and we get it revealed at a later date.

[Styleshift]

I'm the big man...