Atheist Soldier Claims Harassment

[C.F. Kane]

Link (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/26/atheist.soldier.ap/index.html)

JUNCTION CITY, Kansas (AP) -- Like hundreds of young men joining the Army in recent years, Jeremy Hall professes a desire to serve his country while it fights terrorism.
Soldier Jeremy Hall says the pressure to believe in God is so strong "I was ashamed to say that I was an atheist."

But the short and soft-spoken specialist is at the center of a legal controversy. He has filed a lawsuit alleging he's been harassed and his constitutional rights have been violated because he doesn't believe in God. The suit names Defense Secretary Robert Gates.
"I'm not in it for cash," Hall said. "I want no one else to go what I went through."
Known as "the atheist guy," Hall has been called immoral, a devil worshipper and -- just as severe to some soldiers -- gay, none of which, he says, is true. Hall even drove fellow soldiers to church in Iraq and paused while they prayed before meals.
"I see a name and rank and United States flag on their shoulder. That's what I believe everyone else should see," he said.
Hall, 23, was raised in a Protestant family in North Carolina and dropped out of school. It wasn't until he joined the Army (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/u_s_army) that he began questioning religion, eventually deciding he couldn't follow any faith.
But he feared how that would look to other soldiers.
"I was ashamed to say that I was an atheist," Hall said.
It eventually came out in Iraq in 2007, when he was in a firefight. Hall was a gunner on a Humvee, which took several bullets in its protective shield. Afterward, his commander asked whether he believed in God, Hall said.
"I said, 'No, but I believe in Plexiglas,"' Hall said. "I've never believed I was going to a happy place. You get one life. When I die, I'm worm food."
The issue came to a head when, according to Hall, a superior officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, threatened to bring charges against him for trying to hold a meeting of atheists in Iraq. Welborn has denied Hall's allegations.
Hall said he had had enough but feared he wouldn't get support from Welborn's superiors. He turned to Mikey Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.
Weinstein is the foundation's president and a U.S. Air Force Academy graduate. He had previously sued the Air Force for acts he said illegally imposed Christianity on students at the academy, though that case was dismissed. He calls Hall a hero.
"The average American doesn't have enough intestinal fortitude to tell someone to shut up if they are talking in a movie theater," Weinstein said. "You know how hard it is to take on your chain of command? This isn't the shift manager at KFC."
Hall was in Qatar when the lawsuit was filed on September 18 in federal court in Kansas City, Kansas. Other soldiers learned of it and he feared for his own safety. Once, Hall said, a group of soldiers followed him, harassing him, but no one did anything to make it stop.
The Army told him it couldn't protect him and sent him back to Fort Riley (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/fort_rileyU.S.). He resumed duties with a military police battalion. He believes his promotion to sergeant has been blocked because of his lawsuit, but he is a team leader responsible for two junior enlisted soldiers.
No one with Fort Riley, the Army or Defense Department would comment about Hall or the lawsuit. Each issued statements saying that discrimination will not be tolerated regardless of race, religion or gender.
"The department respects [and supports by its policy] the rights of others to their own religious beliefs, including the right to hold no beliefs," said Eileen Lainez, a spokeswoman for the Department of Defense. (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/u_s_department_of_defense)
All three organizations said existing systems help soldiers "address and resolve any perceived unfair treatment."
Lt. Col. David Shurtleff, a Fort Riley chaplain, declined to discuss Hall's case but said chaplains accommodate all faiths as best they can. In most cases, religious issues can be worked out without jeopardizing military operations.
"When you're in Afghanistan and an IED blows up a Humvee, they aren't asking about a wounded soldier's faith," Shurtleff said.
Hall said he enjoys being a team leader but has been told that having faith would make him a better leader.
"I will take care of my soldiers. Nowhere does it say I have to pray with my soldiers, but I do have to make sure my soldiers' religious needs are met," he said.
"Religion (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/religion) brings comfort to a lot of people," he said. "Personally, I don't want it or need it. But I'm not going to get down on anybody else for it."
Hall leaves the Army in April 2009. He would like to find work with the National Park Service or Environmental Protection Agency, anything outdoors.
"I hope this doesn't define me," Hall said of his lawsuit. "It's just about time somebody said something."

[The Geek Vault]

Wow, you don't hear about that everyday!

[ForestAflame]

You want JUSTICE?!? There is no justice. The earth is a meaningless piece of matter in the middle of the universe and we all live meaningless lives until we cease to exist! So don't come here askin' for justice!

[Addendum]

There were atheists in foxholes during WW1 and WW2, so I'm not surprised there's some during the Iraq war. I hope he wins this case :up:

[Superhobo]

Known as "the atheist guy," Hall has been called immoral, a devil worshipper and -- just as severe to some soldiers -- gay, none of which, he says, is true.

Shades of my time being schooled in the boonies, ha.

[Metal Spidey]

I guess he finally found a way to leave the Army with some extra cash.

[spideyboy_1111]

*claps... i have alot of respect for this guy.. sure suing is dumb but just because your American does not mean you have to believe in god or any god. And the fact soldiers harassed him about it was horrible

[Manic]

You want JUSTICE?!? There is no justice. The earth is a meaningless piece of matter in the middle of the universe and we all live meaningless lives until we cease to exist! So don't come here askin' for justice!
Talk about nihilism...

[Metal Spidey]

*claps... i have alot of respect for this guy.. sure suing is dumb but just because your American does not mean you have to believe in god or any god. And the fact soldiers harassed him about it was horrible

He had to have said something to make people talk bad about him. I doubt he said "I'm an atheist" and a swarm of troops jumped on his case. Not only that but I believe he isn't the only atheist in the army. There's more to this case, much more.

[kainedamo]

He had to have said something to make people talk bad about him. I doubt he said "I'm an atheist" and a swarm of troops jumped on his case. Not only that but I believe he isn't the only atheist in the army. There's more to this case, much more.

Not necasserily.

[Poetic Chaos]

the internet has negatively skewed my views of 2 groups of people: athiests and batman fans. this story doesn't bother me.

[The Chairman]

Speaking from the perspective of a Christian, I think taking this to court is a stretch, but he didn't deserve to be persecuted. A person's religion (or in this case, lack thereof) has no effect on your skills as a soldier.

the internet has negatively skewed my views of 2 groups of people: athiests and batman fans. this story doesn't bother me.

You shouldn't let the internet affect your overall views on a particular group of people. While it is true that many atheists on the internet and especially here can be incredibly arrogant and disrespectful, I'm friends with several atheists and one of my closest relatives is one as well. They're great people, they just hold a widely held and widely unaccepted belief. Again, I strongly believe in God, but I don't judge someone if they don't, unless they impose their beliefs upon me.

Also, it sounds like Hall was very respectful of his fellow soldiers who were Christian. He should've been given the same respect.

[terry78]

This sounds like the setup to a joke.

"What did the atheist soldier say to the Iraqi soldier?"

[Arcturus]

Personally, I don't believe in God or religion in general. But I have nothing against people who do have beliefs. However, I do find this story to be sad. The soldiers are bickering/fighting amongst themselves rather then concentrating on the enemy. I hope he wins the case.

[huskerwebhead]

He had to have said something to make people talk bad about him. I doubt he said "I'm an atheist" and a swarm of troops jumped on his case. Not only that but I believe he isn't the only atheist in the army. There's more to this case, much more.

The swarm of troops came about after the lawsuit was filed.

[huskerwebhead]

Speaking from the perspective of a Christian, I think taking this to court is a stretch, but he didn't deserve to be persecuted. A person's religion (or in this case, lack thereof) has no effect on your skills as a soldier.

I don't think it's a stretch at all. Had this been a christian or muslim this not only would have been warranted but front page news and crowds of people supporting the guy.

You shouldn't let the internet affect your overall views on a particular group of people. While it is true that many atheists on the internet and especially here can be incredibly arrogant and disrespectful, I'm friends with several atheists and one of my closest relatives is one as well. They're great people, they just hold a widely held and widely unaccepted belief. Again, I strongly believe in God, but I don't judge someone if they don't, unless they impose their beliefs upon me.

Also, it sounds like Hall was very respectful of his fellow soldiers who were Christian. He should've been given the same respect.

The same could be said of many of the Christians on this site.

[Leto Atrides]

Personally, I don't believe in God or religion in general. But I have nothing against people who do have beliefs. However, I do find this story to be sad. The soldiers are bickering/fighting amongst themselves rather then concentrating on the enemy. I hope he wins the case.

It's bad what they specifically are doing, but they can't concentrate on the enemy all the time, they'd go insane.

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

the internet has negatively skewed my views of 2 groups of people: athiests and batman fans. this story doesn't bother me.

lol

[C.F. Kane]

Speaking from the perspective of a Christian, I think taking this to court is a stretch, but he didn't deserve to be persecuted. A person's religion (or in this case, lack thereof) has no effect on your skills as a soldier.



You shouldn't let the internet affect your overall views on a particular group of people. While it is true that many atheists on the internet and especially here can be incredibly arrogant and disrespectful, I'm friends with several atheists and one of my closest relatives is one as well. They're great people, they just hold a widely held and widely unaccepted belief. Again, I strongly believe in God, but I don't judge someone if they don't, unless they impose their beliefs upon me.

Also, it sounds like Hall was very respectful of his fellow soldiers who were Christian. He should've been given the same respect.

Well, in the defense of other internet atheists like myself, it's a lot easier to disregard people's feeling when you're simply leaving messages around for other people to read. When talking to friends who are religious I always try not to offend them.

Plus, we rarely get a chance to honestly vent about our religious beliefs in real life. So, for better or worse, a lot of what you hear from atheists online is unfiltered venting.

[sithgoblin]

Man, what a champ. I hope it turns out well for him.

[Backdrifter]

Makes me sad to hear this kind of stuff. You wonder if these people are skipping over Mark 12:29-31

29"The most important one (commandment)," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

I don't always agree with with my atheist friends, but I do love them and genuinely care for them. I respect any man's right to chose what they want to believe in. That is the real beauty of being human as opposed to an animal. Free will. God has given us choice.

[spideyboy_1111]

alot of "Christians" skip over alot of stuff *yawn*

[Aristotle]

29"The most important one (commandment)," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."Please, credit where it's due: Jesus was quoting the great Rabbi Hillel, who said that those two commandments were the whole of the Torah; all the rest is commentary.

[Aristotle]

*claps... i have alot of respect for this guy.. sure suing is dumb but just because your American does not mean you have to believe in god or any god. And the fact soldiers harassed him about it was horribleI'm sorry, could you clarify that for me? It appears to me that you just said suing is dumb. What, in any context? The law is what keeps this country anything close to honest, anything close to a democracy! Judicial review and the independent courts and the rule of law are the last chance we have.

[Backdrifter]

Please, credit where it's due: Jesus was quoting the great Rabbi Hillel, who said that those two commandments were the whole of the Torah; all the rest is commentary.

Hillel didn't convince that idea on his own. That is a biblical truth. He may have preached it, sure. But it was not his teaching. It is truth and truth comes from God. In addition, if you look at the story in context:

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

Jesus was being tested by a teacher of the law, he often would answer their questions and use common phrases and sayings. This not only spoke to the audience at the time in a specific way, but it also speaks to audiences throughout the ages in another way. Christ's teachings are multi-layered which is why they continue to be relevant today.

[spideyboy_1111]

I'm sorry, could you clarify that for me? It appears to me that you just said suing is dumb. What, in any context? The law is what keeps this country anything close to honest, anything close to a democracy! Judicial review and the independent courts and the rule of law are the last chance we have.

well typically when people sue the US gov, esp something like this, there reasoning gets lost with the money, and the people who feel against him tend to be more fueled by his message then actually learning from it. And many would probably be ignorant and consider him unpatriotic for the lawsuit :o

[bullets]

This is hilarious irony . There were probably a bunch of politically incorrect speaking , womanizing , alchoholic guys saying to him " What's your problem ?" "You don't believe in god" , "What are you gay or something"

[C.F. Kane]

^ that's what angers Atheists the most. The erroneous assumption that their moral fiber will collapse in the absence of a dogma.

[Spade]

It eventually came out in Iraq in 2007, when he was in a firefight. Hall was a gunner on a Humvee, which took several bullets in its protective shield. Afterward, his commander asked whether he believed in God, Hall said.
"I said, 'No, but I believe in Plexiglas,"' Hall said.

I shouldn't laugh about a near-death experience, but...his response was classic. :hehe:

[The Senator]

This isn't much of a surprise to me. Atheists continuously get the shaft by the American government. Hell, even George H.W. Bush said that atheists aren't true patriots. This is just another incident in a much longer list of prejudices against atheists in the United States.

[Superhobo]

This isn't much of a surprise to me. Atheists continuously get the shaft by the American government. Hell, even George H.W. Bush said that atheists aren't true patriots. This is just another incident in a much longer list of prejudices against atheists in the United States.

Actually, he said we shouldn't be considered citizens. But, yeah - I agree.

[C.F. Kane]

I shouldn't laugh about a near-death experience, but...his response was classic. :hehe:

Hell yeah! It's like something Joss Whedon would write.

"Zoë: Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killin'?
Book: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

[The Senator]

Actually, he said we shouldn't be considered citizens. But, yeah - I agree.

Well, I believe this was the actual quote:

No, I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God.

[Superhobo]

So, we're both right. Cool. :up:

[Prison Mike]

edit

[bullets]

I'd rather be an athiest than a hypocrite.

[gkokujin]

i'd rather EVERYONE on BOTH SIDE quit whining about getting their feelings hurt and take care of our freaking country.

[The Senator]

i'd rather EVERYONE on BOTH SIDE quit whining about getting their feelings hurt and take care of our freaking country.

I'd rather the government keep religion out of the armed forces as it should every other aspect of American government.

However, since that is not the case as this instance obviously shows us, this is an issue which needs to be thoroughly debated in this country. Atheists should not be treated as second-class citizens, especially when they are sacrificing their lives to protect this country from harm abroad.

[ferret]

It eventually came out in Iraq in 2007, when he was in a firefight.This sounds like he was gay and was forced to come out of the closet. So you need a coming out now when you're an atheist? **** man, then the gay atheists need, like, 2. :wow:

This saddens me as much as some comments here, which imply that EVEN THOUGH people are atheists, they can be "good" people (cue all the "I know atheists, they're really nice" comments), as if we'd throw all our morals over board once we decided we didn't want to believe in "god" anymore.

And I believe in plexiglas, too, religiously, amost. :up:

[moraldeficiency]

I'm not sure about this story, it's kinda fuzzy about how he was harrassed or why he wasn't allowed to form a super athiests' club while in a combat zone. If he was harrassed that's messed up but it could equally be true he's just whining because he feels slighted in some way. Maybe just maybe there was a legitimate reason he was denied the formation of the group (probably because of improper paperwork and failure to obtain proper permission).

I've been in the service and religion never came up except as a punch line. I doubt there were a bunch of these religious types following the guy around all the time. You get messed with in the service, it toughens you up, this isn't daycamp people. A drill sergent finds what's important to you and takes every moment he can to rip that down. It's part of training to find discipline when you're put out.

I saw a lot of messed up things while in like blatant racism and sexism but religious harrassment was definatly not something I saw as mattering (unless they were a muslim).

I'm not saying he wasn't necessarily harrassed but it seems like everyone here just assumes he's in the right without much of an actual story. I mean an unarmed guy gets shot like 50 times by four cops and people are jumping all over each other to explain how the cops might have been in the right but some guy makes vague claims of nonphysical harrassment and he's suddenly rosa parks not giving up her bus seat.

[Docker2.0]

This sounds like the setup to a joke.

"What did the atheist soldier say to the Iraqi soldier?"

Agreed!

But honestly, I don't believe this entire story at all. I'm sure dude is leaving a lot of stuff out. People always say that christians shove things down there throat but atheist do the same thing. There is more to the story than dude is telling. :whatever:

[sithgoblin]

Agreed!

But honestly, I don't believe this entire story at all. I'm sure dude is leaving a lot of stuff out. People always say that christians shove things down there throat but atheist do the same thing. There is more to the story than dude is telling. :whatever:
You know atheists are the most reviled group of people in America, don't you? Even more so than Muslims post 9/11.

[SuperFerret]

You know atheists are the most reviled group of people in America, don't you? Even more so than Muslims post 9/11.

Really? Because honestly, I never hear anything bad being said about them. I hear about the blacks, the jews, the muslims, the asians, the russians, the hispanics, and the whites as being bad people, but atheists are a non-entity when it comes to predjudice around my parts.

[Addendum]

We're the untouchables and unmentionables. One would think the caste system was solely the realm of India

[The Senator]

Really? Because honestly, I never hear anything bad being said about them. I hear about the blacks, the jews, the muslims, the asians, the russians, the hispanics, and the whites as being bad people, but atheists are a non-entity when it comes to predjudice around my parts.

Considering the former President of the United States condemned atheists as non-citizens, I think there's considerable prejudice against atheism in this country. Do you remember the whole uproar over removing "under God" from the pledge? Commentators acted as if atheists are soulless, maniacal manipulators who want to completely uproot all religion and throw it in the trash. Regardless of whether you agreed with that case or not, the fact is, that family was treated as if it was downright un-American.

Moreover, there are few people in this world who are willing to say things like "I honestly don't see how Hispanics can enjoy life" or "it must feel really dull to be an Asian." Few people make outlandish statements like that because they are simply outrageous. Yet people go around, even on this forum, saying things like "It must be dull to be an atheist" or "I don't see how an atheist can enjoy life" (both of which are paraphrased from another thread). And my personal favorite is the belief that atheists don't have morals, which is what Sen. Tom Coburn said during his 2004 re-election campaign, and what has been repeated by one of my favorite posters on this forum.

While I'm not an atheist, I understand the kind of bull **** these people go through. And it does not surprise me one bit that the United States military, which continues to discriminate against homosexuals and once discriminated against members of the Wiccan faith, is acting this way towards an atheist who decided to put his life on the line to serve and defend this country overseas.

[Superhobo]

We're like the Jews.


Waitaminute...




:wink:

[sithgoblin]

"A Gallup poll taken in 1999 asked Americans whether they would vote for an otherwise well qualified person who was a woman (95 per cent would), a Catholic (94 per cent would), a Jew (92 per cent), black (92 per cent), Mormon (79 per cent), homosexual (79 per cent) or atheist (49 per cent)."

From The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins.

[Mister Sinister]

America is messed up when belief in fairy tales is equated with patriotism.

[moraldeficiency]

"A Gallup poll taken in 1999 asked Americans whether they would vote for an otherwise well qualified person who was a woman (95 per cent would), a Catholic (94 per cent would), a Jew (92 per cent), black (92 per cent), Mormon (79 per cent), homosexual (79 per cent) or atheist (49 per cent)."

From The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins.

I'm not sure that shows what you think it does. I believe people tend to vote for the politicians they see as mirroring their own beliefs. If most of the country believes in a higher power then they'd be more likely to vote for a politician that does as well. Maybe I'm wrong but that poll is all over the place. Being a woman, black or homosexual isn't a choice but religion is. If that poll took those out and asked about every major religion on earth including muslims, buddists, hindus, etc then it might be slightly more credible than something that seems to have been formulated at the least arbitrarily or at the most designed to cause uproar.

But to say this means that say blacks are less presecuted than atheists is just silly. Next time you see atheists getting lynched then let's talk until then to have a few people disagree with you and say you're belief is stupid just means you've joined the ranks of any other religious group. Congrats, you now get the same level of **** as most other religions.

Simply put people aren't killed for being athiests or denied same wages or barred from being citizens. When the chinese gov. begins purifing athiests before the next olympics then maybe they can have some say in who's the most persecuted.

[Darthphere]

When someone states that it's not about the money, it's usually about the money.

[C.F. Kane]

You know atheists are the most reviled group of people in America, don't you? Even more so than Muslims post 9/11.

How can you measure "most reviled"?

[Prison Mike]

You know atheists are the most reviled group of people in America, don't you? Even more so than Muslims post 9/11.

There was a poll taken and the majority of Americans feel Atheists are more of a threat to America than gays and lesbians and muslims. lol I don't think any of them are a threat, but I was surprised that atheists are the most hated group in America.

[The Senator]

I'm not sure that shows what you think it does. I believe people tend to vote for the politicians they see as mirroring their own beliefs. If most of the country believes in a higher power then they'd be more likely to vote for a politician that does as well. Maybe I'm wrong but that poll is all over the place. Being a woman, black or homosexual isn't a choice but religion is. If that poll took those out and asked about every major religion on earth including muslims, buddists, hindus, etc then it might be slightly more credible than something that seems to have been formulated at the least arbitrarily or at the most designed to cause uproar.

But to say this means that say blacks are less presecuted than atheists is just silly. Next time you see atheists getting lynched then let's talk until then to have a few people disagree with you and say you're belief is stupid just means you've joined the ranks of any other religious group. Congrats, you now get the same level of **** as most other religions.

Simply put people aren't killed for being athiests or denied same wages or barred from being citizens. When the chinese gov. begins purifing athiests before the next olympics then maybe they can have some say in who's the most persecuted.

I don't know if anyone is saying that atheists have been or are treated worse than blacks or other ethnic minorities in this country.

However, I don't think it matters what the level of intolerance is. What matters is the simple fact that atheists are treated like garbage on a daily basis.

In high school, we had a discussion on religion in politics... the teacher asked us what our religions were, and when someone answered "atheist," he laughed and said "good luck with that."

I mean, that ignorance and intolerance pretty much encompasses the whole debate. Many people reject the idea of atheism as an immoral or hopeless way of life, and some of those people believe that no one can live a reasonable life without believing in a higher power. One of my relatives, who recently died of cancer, was an avid atheist. He did not believe in God whatsoever, but he did far more in his 60 years on this planet than some of the Christians I know. He led a fulfilling life-- who is to say that he died without some sense of meaning? Who can honestly say that he was an immoral, impractical being who had no reason to live because he didn't believe in a higher power?

This happens all the time, even on this forum people are willing to say that atheists can't live a fulfilling life. So really, there is considerable prejudice against atheists which shouldn't be overlooked simply because it does not compare to how other races or creeds were treated before them.

[Venomfan]

its wierd hearing stories from the U.S., relgion is so messed up there. It also seems to be the only country where wacko "christians" are everwhere and get so much publicity. It's also wierd hearing athiests as a minority, i'm in Canada, and barely anyone i know believes in God, i get made fun of all the time for being a Christian and it doesn't bother me. theres definatly more to this story, or else he's just one of those whiny guys where people joke about his 'religion' or in his face atheism and he takes it to heart.

[moraldeficiency]

I don't know if anyone is saying that atheists have been or are treated worse than blacks or other ethnic minorities in this country.

However, I don't think it matters what the level of intolerance is. What matters is the simple fact that atheists are treated like garbage on a daily basis.

In high school, we had a discussion on religion in politics... the teacher asked us what our religions were, and when someone answered "atheist," he laughed and said "good luck with that."

I mean, that ignorance and intolerance pretty much encompasses the whole debate. Many people reject the idea of atheism as an immoral or hopeless way of life, and some of those people believe that no one can live a reasonable life without believing in a higher power. One of my relatives, who recently died of cancer, was an avid atheist. He did not believe in God whatsoever, but he did far more in his 60 years on this planet than some of the Christians I know. He led a fulfilling life-- who is to say that he died without some sense of meaning? Who can honestly say that he was an immoral, impractical being who had no reason to live because he didn't believe in a higher power?

This happens all the time, even on this forum people are willing to say that atheists can't live a fulfilling life. So really, there is considerable prejudice against atheists which shouldn't be overlooked simply because it does not compare to how other races or creeds were treated before them.


The person I was quoting did:
You know atheists are the most reviled group of people in America, don't you? Even more so than Muslims post 9/11.

It certianly matters what the level of intolerance is. There's a difference between say a black guy getting lynched before a crowd of cheering onlookers or a black guy getting denied a bus seat. Sure the bus seat thing sucks but can you really compare those two acts with a straight face?

Maybe some atheists are treated like garbage but I'm sure any group on earth can say the same thing so I'm not sure the point of this. I'm sure there are atheists that treat the religious like they're garbage too. That's a very wide paintbrush you're using to define treatment.

A teacher made a blithe comment once to a highschooler? So? Have you ever been to high school cause you'll get a lot more **** than that for just wearing the wrong style of sneakers, it's high school did you expect everyone to treat everyone with proper respect and understanding?

I never said anything negative about atheists in general, I merely refuted sith's rather callous statements and pointed out that we don't have the full story and this soldier might just be an ******* that didn't follow procedure and decided to go all emo. You have to admit the facts desplayed in the article are very light as to the how, who and why's.

I'm sure your relative was a wonderful person and I'm sorry for your loss, but what does that have to do with anything? Many people believe because he was an atheist he lived an immoral life? But that could be said about any religious belief. Pick any one and there will always be a rather large group that will tell you that choice is immoral and wrong. It doesn't matter your choice, expect to get some level of **** for any belief you have. If it's a strong enough belief it won't matter what others say.

Some people on the internet talk bad about atheists? Again this same thing can be said for any belief. Toughen up. Personally I think athiests can live perfectly fullfilling lives, in fact more so because they get to establish their own moral codes (although I know plenty of sociologists that would debate that). It seems almost like you're reaching for ways to feel blighted and wronged with very little other then the fact that mean people say mean things about your group from time to time. That's just life.

[Mr Sparkle]

I'm sure your relative was a wonderful person and I'm sorry for your loss, but what does that have to do with anything? Many people believe because he was an atheist he lived an immoral life? But that could be said about any religious belief. Pick any one and there will always be a rather large group that will tell you that choice is immoral and wrong. It doesn't matter your choice

uh....that's not true.
that's not true at all.:huh:

[moraldeficiency]

uh....that's not true.
that's not true at all.:huh:

No? When I hear crazy muslims telling people that Allah is the only way to paradise it sounds like the mormons or catholics or (insert the name of fanatic religious group here) that tell people their religion is the only true path to paradise. That would imply that anyone else is wrong and going to hell, right?

If you pick any religious belief or nonbelief there will inevitably be someone telling you you're going to hell or some other such nonsense because you didn't choose their belief.

Or maybe you've found some religion that no one has any problems with, in which case sign me up.

[The Senator]

It certianly matters what the level of intolerance is. There's a difference between say a black guy getting lynched before a crowd of cheering onlookers or a black guy getting denied a bus seat. Sure the bus seat thing sucks but can you really compare those two acts with a straight face?

Maybe some atheists are treated like garbage but I'm sure any group on earth can say the same thing so I'm not sure the point of this. I'm sure there are atheists that treat the religious like they're garbage too. That's a very wide paintbrush you're using to define treatment.

A teacher made a blithe comment once to a highschooler? So? Have you ever been to high school cause you'll get a lot more **** than that for just wearing the wrong style of sneakers, it's high school did you expect everyone to treat everyone with proper respect and understanding?

I never said anything negative about atheists in general, I merely refuted sith's rather callous statements and pointed out that we don't have the full story and this soldier might just be an ******* that didn't follow procedure and decided to go all emo. You have to admit the facts desplayed in the article are very light as to the how, who and why's.

I'm sure your relative was a wonderful person and I'm sorry for your loss, but what does that have to do with anything? Many people believe because he was an atheist he lived an immoral life? But that could be said about any religious belief. Pick any one and there will always be a rather large group that will tell you that choice is immoral and wrong. It doesn't matter your choice, expect to get some level of **** for any belief you have. If it's a strong enough belief it won't matter what others say.

Some people on the internet talk bad about atheists? Again this same thing can be said for any belief. Toughen up. Personally I think athiests can live perfectly fullfilling lives, in fact more so because they get to establish their own moral codes (although I know plenty of sociologists that would debate that). It seems almost like you're reaching for ways to feel blighted and wronged with very little other then the fact that mean people say mean things about your group from time to time. That's just life.

First of all, I'm not an atheist.

Second, no one's faith (or lack thereof) should be trashed by those in government and those who are so self-righteous enough to assume that their faith is the one and only faith worth following. I personally find it to be utterly hypocritical for so-called Christians to turn their back on their lord and savior, who told his followers to love everyone equally, and refer to atheists as non-citizens or treat them as if they shouldn't be allowed to live their lives as "good Christians" do.

You're right, you should expect **** throughout high school. But teachers have a moral obligation to help out all of their students. If they want to mock someone's beliefs or lack thereof in class, that's where they cross the line. There's a difference between calling someone out on their behavior versus their personal creed.

I brought up my relative as an example of someone who has lived a fulfilling life regardless of what anti-atheists like to think.

And I mention this forum to point out that all you have to do is enter a thread on religion where you'll find someone discussing how immoral atheists are.

[moraldeficiency]

First of all, I'm not an atheist.

Second, no one's faith (or lack thereof) should be trashed by those in government and those who are so self-righteous enough to assume that their faith is the one and only faith worth following. I personally find it to be utterly hypocritical for so-called Christians to turn their back on their lord and savior, who told his followers to love everyone equally, and refer to atheists as non-citizens or treat them as if they shouldn't be allowed to live their lives as "good Christians" do.

You're right, you should expect **** throughout high school. But teachers have a moral obligation to help out all of their students. If they want to mock someone's beliefs or lack thereof in class, that's where they cross the line. There's a difference between calling someone out on their behavior versus their personal creed.

I brought up my relative as an example of someone who has lived a fulfilling life regardless of what anti-atheists like to think.

And I mention this forum to point out that all you have to do is enter a thread on religion where you'll find someone discussing how immoral atheists are.

First off it really doesn't matter which group you're in. Though I appologize for assuming that.

Secondly, I agree that's hypocritical but the same can be said for Jews, Muslims, hell even buddists which do the same thing. It's not just one group, it's all religions or nonreligions that participate in this odd spiritual elitism.

Thirdly, you're right that teachers shouldn't do that, but it happens anyway. I can remember many teachers that were just overgrown bullies and to be honest the situation you labled was rather lame in regards to actual bulling.

Again, sorry about your relative, but who cares what some religious zealots think about him/her. If there was a heaven and those asshats got in, that would be the last place I'd want to end up for all eternity.

And all you have to do is enter a religious thread to find some atheist or agnostic talking down to anyone "silly" enough to believe in a higher power. The door swings both ways. It sucks that some people can't help but tell others how wrong they are about everything, but that's life. You also can't enter a hulk thread without some moron telling you how the hulk could beat up galactus as long as he was really really really mad at him or that batman pwns all with 15 minutes of prep. I ignore the raving hulk and bat fans just like the religious nuts.