How do you make The Mandarin work for a film?

[GL1]

Potential Problems:


Origin involves aliens and alien technology
Several of the rings are virtually magical, defying even pseudo-science
Mandarin is based on communism, the conflict with which is dated


My thoughts:

Ten Rings are developed by various weapons dealers around the world by the shadowy black market Chinese administrative/strategy genius Khan. One of the rings even comes from Stark Industries.

Tone down and specialize each of the rings. Being able to make hands come up out of the earth is just plain old beyond reasonable.
Left Pinkie was "Ice Blast," give it some kind of high level communications setup, allowing it to jam signals and create communications and such.
Left Ring Finger was "Mental-Intensifier," give it that subsonic paralysis thing that Stane used on Tony and Raja.
Left Middle Finger was "Electro Blast," make it an incredible electrical power source with a taser function for Mandarin's up close attacks.
Left Index Finger was "Flame Blast," make it the intense laser thing.
Left Thumb was "White Light," give it a crazy hologram setup that allows for vivid illusions.
Right Thumb was "Matter Rearranger," make it
Right Index Finger was "Impact Beam," make it a repulsor beam, basically, like Tony's.
Right Middle Finger was "Vortex Beam," make it a gravity distorter thing either for Mandarin's personal levitation or slowing down others.
Right Ring Finger was "Disintegration Beam," make it a matter destabilizer, perhaps via sonics or radiation.
Right Pinkie was "Black Light," give it free range over the electromag spectrum, microwaves, ultraviolet

And on being timely and relevant, if we want to make Mandarin representative of modern rivals/threats to America, then just the fact that he has more functionality is a good start, but our precarious financial situation could be represented by Mandarin being plain old more beloved around the world than Stark. Heck, let Mandarin start a hostile takeover of Stark Industries. Now that's a reason to fight... or drink a lot.

just my thoughts.

http://www.marvel.com/universe3zx/images/thumb/6/68/Mandarin.jpg/440px-Mandarin.jpg

[Danalys]

in the new film don't they have that terrorist orginisation named after the ten rings. so i'm assuming they'll just be some mysterious ancient artifacts that the mandarin will eventually get together. also the ten rings or what ever their name is could be a world wide issue that we just saw one part of.

[ShadowBoxing]

Well, to be fair, in regards to "defying physics" a lot of what's done in Iron Man already defies physics and is borderline magic.

[Leto]

I'm pretty sure the ring Raza the terrorist leader had was symbolic. Not an actual artifact, just a symbol he was a lieutenant of the Mandarin.

And with regards to communism China is now more than ever still an economic powerhouse in the world. Having the Mandarin represent their industrial power could provide subtle political commentary.

I'd keep the alien rings if their tone could be adequately portrayed. Iron Man is going to be interacting with a mythical god in Avengers, he's got to be able to fight larger than life characters in his own flicks.

I'd go with the origin that Gene Khan travelled to a remote valley in China where an alien spaceship crashed thousands of years ago, found flawed or damaged gauntlets or something that controlled the ship, and then set out to build an empire.

Fin Fang Foom is getting a redesign in Iron Man: Viva Las Vegas, and I keep imagining Iron Man zipping around a crazy looking dragon with the Mandarin on its back shooting energy blasts from his rings.

[Knightsaber Priss]

I was just thinking, couldn't the rings just be different mechanisms placed on mechanical gauntlets that give Mandarin the powers he has in the comics?

[Armored Avenger]

Base the Mandarin off his latest appearances in the comics, and he will work brilliantly in the film. The personality, motivation and look of the character were all amazing:

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5261/mandrin1ve0.jpg

[GL1]

I don't think the personality, motivation and look are much of a concern, honestly. I'm just thinking over the origin.

Ten Rings as a worldwide organization? Interesting... and just give Mandarin some gauntlets? or nothing at all? Interesting...

I think the thoughts of "We're breaking physics, might as well break some more" and "He's going to be dealing with magic and aliens later, might as well build his franchise around it" are excuses, despite them being good points.

Genre-bending (especially bringing in aliens and magic) is immersion-breaking. It's one thing to blend genres (AvP, Avengers, etc) when you blend characters who have an established universe, it's a bit more precarious when you take a character who lives in an established tech-based earth-based world and add in aliens, not as a plot point to be explored, but simply as a run-of-the-mill origin... some random aliens out of nowhere, that serve no purpose other than a shortcut to putting Mandarin on IM's level.

I'd much rather they work within the setup of the first film and have the Ten Rings be Mandarin's worldwide organization and give him some funky gauntlets to assist him in some way. I would dare even make Mandarin a hands-off mastermind and have him create Ultimo based off of what he knows of Iron Man.

As for the today's China's economic power, that's what I was going for, but to portray Mandarin as a sleazy, demented China, as he was before, would be silly, and not representative of the current tension... the thing right now is that China has leverage on the US, and lots of it. As I said, the corporate struggle (Mandarin's organization getting all of Stark's contracts) could be interesting, for instance.

[Chris B]

I would say just explain the rings as being inventions of his. I do like GL1's approach to them. But the idea of making them ancient magical artifacts is starting to grow on me.

[Katsuro]

It seems like the rings are just going to be symbolic. There are probably ten leaders of the Ten Rings, with Mandarin either being above all of them, or being one of the ten who makes a grab for power.

[RonStoppablefan]

I just want the rings to be itroduced slowly into the movie and Mandarin as well. They need to do this right. I'm curious who could get the part of Mandarin, in fact I think I'll opean up a discussion about it in the sequal forums. I like the idea of the rings being a world wide type thing this time that would be fun.

[BobJM]

I think that the rings will be mainly symbolic in the films. Raza's ring is a sign of power. Mandarin will wear all ten and run the insurgent group as he continues weapon trafficking throughout the entire world.

No mystical powers or ice blasts or anything like that. If anything, give Mandarin some gauntlets that he can wear on his hands to emit blasts that he perfected from blueprints of the Iron Monger.

[ShadowBoxing]

Genre-bending (especially bringing in aliens and magic) is immersion-breaking. It's one thing to blend genres (AvP, Avengers, etc) when you blend characters who have an established universe, it's a bit more precarious when you take a character who lives in an established tech-based earth-based world and add in aliens, not as a plot point to be explored, but simply as a run-of-the-mill origin... some random aliens out of nowhere, that serve no purpose other than a shortcut to putting Mandarin on IM's level.

Although one of the very, very smart things about this movie was it "genre bent" a little right off the bat. Jarvis mentioning space travel, Stane suggesting technology was their weakness were all attempts to show the universe was more than simply tech.

[The Overlord]

But there is another problem, Mandarin isn't exactly PC and some might he clam he is a just a yellow pearl villain, brining up memories of Christopher Lee in yellow face as Fu Manchu. You have to real careful with him.

[GL1]

The old stereotypical Mandarin was offensive on several levels, yeah, but Mandarin as a badass genius is cool no matter how you slice it, the fact that he happens to be Chinese and love his culture and history is just part of what makes him unique, but if you focus on making a well-motivated capable character based on the modern real world, you won't have to even think about PC-ness.

Although one of the very, very smart things about this movie was it "genre bent" a little right off the bat. Jarvis mentioning space travel, Stane suggesting technology was their weakness were all attempts to show the universe was more than simply tech.

Hm... did notice that. Well said, and that does indeed sound very clever.

I think if they follow aliens or magic as a plot point and explore it, explain it and highlight that conflict of earth tech vs alien tech or tech vs magic, I think that could work... not what I'd do, but it could work. If aliens or magic is used as a one of excuse for unexplainable tech, then it becomes cheap, trite and lazy, imho. I don't think that's acceptable.

And, honestly, I'm not sure that magic vs tech is something that an Iron Man movie needs to be about at this point. I'd much rather see Mandarin with an elite "ten rings" organization, and some multi-multi-function gauntlets for a final battle rather than taking time to explain why the aliens who made the technology are important, why they came to earth, why its diametrically opposed and superior to earth tech, and other things to establish that it's not just a random excuse for heading the plot off in a given direction.

Again, magic or aliens can work, but it has to be integral to the plot, and thus, to the universe, it can't just be a random excuse.

[He-Man]

A long stretch but they’re saying IM2 will be used to introduce Thor. Maybe now the “10 Rings” are only symbolic and somehow something from Asgard give the rings their actual powers in IM2.

[Odin's Lapdog]

magic has a place in this universe, it's essential to confront iron man's rational scientific mind.

As well as doubting the mandarin's magic, i would like for tony to doubt thor's as a sceptic because it may cause some decent friction between them.

magic is a must, somethings aren't meant to be grounded. Magic I believe is an acceptible medium as long as there are limits set up to its extent on screen.

keep the rings as they are...

[Spider-Fan]

I say the gauntlets idea is the best one yet. But, I agree that the Ten Rings are probably a metaphor, and Mandarin is the main person in charge of the group.

Though he might wield something like a 10 Ring gauntlet to show he is the master of all the other divisions of the 10 Rings. I mean, he has to have some kind of power thing, or else he is not an interesting fight for Iron Man.

[GNR]

Base the Mandarin off his latest appearances in the comics, and he will work brilliantly in the film. The personality, motivation and look of the character were all amazing:

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5261/mandrin1ve0.jpg

the current incarnation of Mandarin in the comics is really good and probably the most mature and subtle take on him ever

[S.A.A.D]

If the rings don't come from aliens in Iron Man 2(assuming Mandarin is in it),then I prefer they(the 10 rings) start off as normal rings until Mandarin doe's some crazy stuff that has never ever been tried among his people from his culture that grants the rings the 10 different powers that he has in the comic books. Like Mandarin could have heard something that long ago it was said that if blah blah blah was done with the use of 10 specific rings then they would do 10 different things,I'm sorry if this idea isn't fresh and if it was done before in the comics. So yeah,Mandarin starts off as a bad guy already,finds these 10 special rings,and then you know.

[LadyMoira]

I say make the Mandarin a mixture of technology and some sort of mystical abilities that are never fully explained-that will actually make them easier for audiences to accept and help with the tension that Tony Stark always has with magic; it's not "logical" and he doesn't know how to deal. Like any technical problem, Tony is on top of, but the Mandarin's abilities don't follow the rules to him. I'm counting on the fact that the screenwriters will be smart enough to avoid some of the godawful Asian stereotypes in the early years of Iron Man, and that Favreau will be as successful in casting the Mandarin as he was getting Bridges, Howard, and RDJ on board. The right actor for the villain makes all the difference; look at Ian McKellan as Magneto or Cillian Murphy as Scarecrow and then look at Julian McMahon as Doctor Doom and then slam your head against the wall a few times.

[RockSP]

The right actor for the villain makes all the difference; look at Ian McKellan as Magneto or Cillian Murphy as Scarecrow and then look at Julian McMahon as Doctor Doom and then slam your head against the wall a few times.

:hehe::hehe::hehe:

[steven person]

im sorry to say this,but these are some of the worst ideas i have ever heard of for a movie.no offence,but every idea is just lamer and more stupid then the next.....they kept it kinda close to the comic.granted this place is for people to express their ideas....but come on.im just waiting for someone to say "bring in ironboy....that would be soooo cool" (yes,i know there is no such thing as iron boy).

[Badger]

What the hell is your Grand idea then? Don't just come in and bash everybody without at least giving your idea, you twit.

[Bren]

im sorry to say this,but these are some of the worst ideas i have ever heard of for a movie.no offence,but every idea is just lamer and more stupid then the next.....they kept it kinda close to the comic.granted this place is for people to express their ideas....but come on.im just waiting for someone to say "bring in ironboy....that would be soooo cool" (yes,i know there is no such thing as iron boy).

Err, where did this come from???



Great post. Really.

[BobJM]

Mandarin.....Iron Boy.......Mandarin

I'm not seeing where you're pulling Iron Boy from, steven. People are expressing their ideas on how to modernize a a famous character while remaining true to his characterization and you're bringing up childish ideas about disregarding source material and creating a new character.

Call me crazy, but I don't see what you're going for with this.

[GL1]

And Iron Lad kicked tail, so perhaps you should make sure your point stands out from your attitude. Nothing wrong with attitude... I've got some myself, but your point got lost.

the current incarnation of Mandarin in the comics is really good and probably the most mature and subtle take on him ever

PLEASE give us some details... or at least some issue numbers or trade paperbacks. This may be completely true, but for those of us who aren't keeping up with current IM comics, the comment doesn't really help a lot. It's like answering a question with "The answer exists."

Anyway, magic *can* work, but you can't just throw it around like modern comics do, since they're building on an established foundation, and IM2 would be built on the first movie only. The magic vs tech thing could be good storyline... it could even blend with Tony's personal arc about losing control. The problem is implementing magic is making it so it doesn't seem random... it has to have rules or limitations, or else there's no story tension, it's like listening to a six year old make up magical faeries on the spot.

Add to that the rings themselves and their canonical functions. Matter Rearanger is kind of a game-ender as X3 Phoenix showed us. You might as well send Iron Man up to fight cloud-Galactus. In my humble opinion, the actual abilities and arrangement of the rings are somewhat arbitrary. I don't see any pattern or theme, and a villain with no theme, or with aspects that are unrelated to that theme, lacks relevance, inherently so.

I still propose a more subtle approach. Give him just a few things that Tony can't figure out via tech. Perhaps even going so far as to make one hand tech and the other unexplainable. As long as its a theme that's explored, it can all be grafted into the universe cohesively. If it's just shoved in as a mention, well... I think I've said that enough times.

I think I just want to see someone beat Tony at his own game, I think that'd be an interesting storyline to add to his fall into alcoholism... with a wave of his hand calling forth a massive laser from space to wipe out a given target... with a wave of his hand, hacking the IM armor and making it fritz out or even be taken over. With a wave of his hand, incapacitating a crowd of civillians, with a wave of his hand broadcasting given events worldwide. On top of that, his company or organization or whatever, "Ten Rings" plain old outdoing Stark Industries.

Now if you add magic to that, fine. Just make sure the magic has rules, perhaps charge up or cooldown times for these ring-based projectiles. Perhaps the rings are just mystical power sources for Mandarin's own devices... that could be cool as well.

I'm still a bit skeptical about aliens, because using the comics origin makes Mandarin a sub-boss, really. The real problem is the Makluans... and Mandarin's just a leech, not a self-made man in his own right. I'm not down with that, personally.

As far as actors, I'm kind of a fan of Ken Watanabe. He's pretty boss, and has the presence, charisma and experience to parlay with actors like RDJ, Gwen Paltrow and T Howard.

I'm tired of thinking about this today.

[The Guard]

The Mandarin needs to be the anti-Stark. An evil version of Tony Stark, a man who believes in the power that arms have to control the world. An absolute genius with a secret organization, bent on...whatever, power, world domination, advances in the arms race. He should pit world leaders and terrorist organizations against each other for his services. The rings can be both symbolic and functional. After all, the man's a genius. I say make him an expert in miniaturization and a pioneer in the field of nanotechnology. Give him James Bondlike rings/weapons that mirror the kinds of things Stane was using. Maybe Stane was given some tech from the Mandarin over the years? There are all kinds of possibilities.

There has to be a reason The Mandarin's organization wanted Stark's tech. Perhaps The Mandarin wants to ally with Stark, to combine their genius, etc. It's thin, but it's relevant and it works.

Now, if you want to keep the alien rings/powers angle, and Marvel wants to be really ambitious, the rings can be a gift from an invading alien force, and The Mandarin's role could be to prepare the Earth for their arrival. But that's...not as compelling for some reason.

Although, "alien weapons" could just be altered to "space weapons". That'd be an interesting angle to play up, make it a bit more science fiction.

[steven person]

What the hell is your Grand idea then? Don't just come in and bash everybody without at least giving your idea, you twit.


ok sourpuss.dont get snipy.first.stark ind goes red from tony saying...no more arms..then dive into booze.bad guys pops up....tony falls apart and cant be a good hero anymore due to bozzing.he loses a battle.fury is brought in somehow.rhodes goes to help him by being war machine...he gets messed up.either helping tony in a battle or doing battle alone.tony finds movtation in tokens ass kicking.stops drinking and pops off said villian...now i dont believe the madrian will have a full role in this.....cause then like most marvel movies,they will kill him to piss all of u off.maybe a shadowy figure barking orders to ultran or some killable villian...by the time this movies comes out....this is whats going to happen.quote me.i might be wrong on the minor things.but it will flow like that.its not what anyone likes but hey....its hollywood......they dont work for u.i say give the role of "make im2" to you guys....with actual talkng out ideas and money involved....it would be a good movie.

[TheVileOne]

Why do the rings have to be technological at all? If Iron Man can crossover with an Asguardian God such as Thor, why can he not use that version of Mandarin?

[Bren]

Why do the rings have to be technological at all? If Iron Man can crossover with an Asguardian God such as Thor, why can he not use that version of Mandarin?

Damn straight.

Introduce it, and show it from Stark's perspective. He thinks it must be tech because he cannot admit to the fact that magic exists. Don't ever explain it from Mandarin's perspective, maybe even have Mandarin amused slightly at IM's inability to percieve the true nature of his 'powers' - Stark keeps wondering 'what tech is that, how does it work'?

Then Thor comes around (in Avengers) and Stark is REALLY dumbstruck!

[The Guard]

Why do the rings have to be technological at all?

So they can be thematically relevant. Having the genius to create such items actually makes The Mandarin a more capable and more interesting foe than if he just has magic rings.

[Bren]

So they can be thematically relevant. Having the genius to create such items actually makes The Mandarin a more capable and more interesting foe than if he just has magic rings.

Every magician I've seen or heard of has to be of rather above-average intelligence and wisdom, with massive dedication to their craft. Don't see how having magic at his disposal suddenly makes him less intelligent. It's a different type of intelligence.

Since I'm no expert of the comics, are the rings magical in the comics?
If so;
Having you change them to tech-based, why don't you simply change Thor into an alien from another planet, with a lightly-hammer-looking space age device that has portal and electricity generating capabilities.

Don't have to explain anything and it fits in the real world.
And ruins the character.

I don't want to just see 'plausible technology' films. I want to see Marvel superhero films.

[TheVileOne]

We are talking about Iron Man and Thor co-existing in the same cinematic universe. If that is possible, why can't Iron Man and Mandarin do the same?

[athena]

The racism thing with Mandarin is going to be a problem. Also, China is a huge market for movies so they wont want it to be offensive to moviegoers there.

They would have to make sure there are lots of good Chinese characters to balance things out. Maybe the Mandarin wants to take over the whole world, including China, so the Chinese government asks Stark for help? Just to make it more culturaly sensitive... I think it could work...

[Hectorminator]

We are talking about Iron Man and Thor co-existing in the same cinematic universe. If that is possible, why can't Iron Man and Mandarin do the same?

I think that it's one thing to have Thor and Iron Man co-star in one movie, but another to have a magical character in an Iron Man movie.

I don't know how they plan to do the Avengers, but I'm guessing it's gonna be close to the Ultimates, considering they used Sam Jackson's Nick Fury, and they might want to keep it closer to Sci-Fi than to Fantasy. Thor is introduced into the series as a former mental patient who claims he is the son of Odin, when really he might have stolen a super-suit. Eventually we find out he is Thor, but even then, Loki looks really contemporary, and characters from Thor's world only invade and fight in our world ONCE. The rest of the Thor supporting cast doesn't become a mainstay of the Avengers universe.

They're probably going to go with this angle, and have the audience know that Thor's legit because of his own 'origin' movie that will have already come out. But just because Iron Man can sit and have dinner with Thor (in an Avengers movie) doesn't mean that all Iron Man's villains are going to follow Thor's example, you know? Like in one of the previous Batman movies, Metropolis was mentioned, which begs the question, why didn't Superman just fly over and save Gotham City for Batman?

You gotta keep things somewhat separate. And so far, Iron Man is based on science fiction (which some will argue is as real as fantasy, but it least it TRIES to explain why stuff's happening) so I think the Mandarin should stay in Tony Stark's world.

[athena]

You gotta keep things somewhat separate. And so far, Iron Man is based on science fiction (which some will argue is as real as fantasy, but it least it TRIES to explain why stuff's happening) so I think the Mandarin should stay in Tony Stark's world.

He IS in Stark's world, though. His "magic" rings are alien technology, and Fin Fang Foom is an alien. This is pure science fiction.

It's like the TV series Stargate, where the heroes are battling ancient Egyptian gods -- but the "gods" are really parasitic aliens with psychokinetic powers in human host bodies. There isn't a single thing in Stargate that is magic, it just looks like magic until you get the explanation.

[Armored Avenger]

PLEASE give us some details... or at least some issue numbers or trade paperbacks.

The issues containing the most current (and best) take on the Mandarin were Iron Man: Director Of S.H.I.E.L.D issue 15 - 28

[Flash-er]

****Spoilers for those who haven't seen the movie****





I dont' know how they'd really do it, but it seems they've set it up for the Mandarin to be the main villian in the next film, what with the terrorist group leader of the Ten Rings (nice nod there) being left alive. He'd also amp up the tech he's got since Stane's insult was that of his Achillie's heel.

[chamber-music]

Make Mandarin Emo ..........:funny:
http://i28.tinypic.com/macabc.jpg

[RockSP]

I dont' know how they'd really do it, but it seems they've set it up for the Mandarin to be the main villian in the next film, what with the terrorist group leader of the Ten Rings (nice nod there) being left alive. He'd also amp up the tech he's got since Stane's insult was that of his Achillie's heel.

He could be still alive. I mean Stane told his men to kill everybody. It would be kinda strange to spare him...

[GL1]

The issues containing the most current (and best) take on the Mandarin were Iron Man: Director Of S.H.I.E.L.D issue 15 - 28

Thanks. No details? That's cold blooded. :hehe:

Why do the rings have to be technological at all? If Iron Man can crossover with an Asguardian God such as Thor, why can he not use that version of Mandarin?

Again, because an Iron Man movie is about Iron Man. Anything that doesn't lead back to Iron Man weakens the story. Random magic that isn't dealt with thematically or plot-wise weakens the story. An Avengers movie is about the Avengers coming together, and their individual plots are already established, all you have to do is sew them together. I personally don't think that an Iron Man movie should spend the twenty minutes of screen time necessary to explain rules, origins, and limitations of magic, especially when it still has to relate that to Tony's personal failings of the moment. I don't believe it does any good for the movie.

The problem isn't that magic is tech, the problem is that magic isn't Iron Man.

Damn straight.

Introduce it, and show it from Stark's perspective. He thinks it must be tech because he cannot admit to the fact that magic exists. Don't ever explain it from Mandarin's perspective, maybe even have Mandarin amused slightly at IM's inability to percieve the true nature of his 'powers' - Stark keeps wondering 'what tech is that, how does it work'?

Then Thor comes around (in Avengers) and Stark is REALLY dumbstruck!

Again, points for having a story solution, but I'm not sure having 'what is magic' is a suitable cliffhanger to bridge a sequel into a crossover franchise when 'what is magic' is the principal function behind your villain. What if Lex Luthor never explained how he could grow islands... or Green Goblin just showed up halfway through Spider-Man, laughing at Spidey (and the audience) for not being able to figure out where this random plot element came from?

[The Guard]

Every magician I've seen or heard of has to be of rather above-average intelligence and wisdom, with massive dedication to their craft. Don't see how having magic at his disposal suddenly makes him less intelligent. It's a different type of intelligence.

There's "magic" and there's sorcery. The Madarin is more of a sorcerer than a magician.

Having you change them to tech-based, why don't you simply change Thor into an alien from another planet, with a lightly-hammer-looking space age device that has portal and electricity generating capabilities.

Why not? Better not to explain it at all, in my opinion. Let people wonder.

Don't have to explain anything and it fits in the real world.
And ruins the character.

No it doesn't ruin the character. It makes him more thematically relevant to the franchise. Which makes the STORY more thematically relevant and less "random". Anything that comes in and is just out of left field "fantasy" will not accomplish that.

[yoshimura]

The issues containing the most current (and best) take on the Mandarin were Iron Man: Director Of S.H.I.E.L.D issue 15 - 28

could you please provide some details on Mandarin in this series?

I googled "Iron Man: Director Of S.H.I.E.L.D", but haven't found anything.

[Superhero 101]

I would probably go with the Gaunlet thing and in order for them to work you need like 10 rings to activate it or something. I am pretty sure the writers will come up with something good.

[S.A.A.D]

I would probably go with the Gaunlet thing and in order for them to work you need like 10 rings to activate it or something. I am pretty sure the writers will come up with something good.

Yes,the special 10 rings if he doesn't have them they can be a myth,he could find them and the gauntlet would have to have specific hardware to well have the 10 rings activate perhaps. I think maybe Mandarin should be an evil business man..oh,and if he has a gauntlet with the rings it can make his skin become pea green and deform his ears by making them Spock like.
And boom,an origin that pretty much works..maybe it could be an accident or maybe not because of using the 10 rings on the gauntlet for the first time. Trial and error...

[JokerLedger]

Make Mandarin Emo ..........:funny:
http://i28.tinypic.com/macabc.jpg

HAHAAHHAAHAHAHAH BEST SCENE OF THE MOVIE!

falls just in line with my pick for Lee Byung Hun as Mandarin
http://i0.sinaimg.cn/ent/m/f/p/2008-04-24/46cbe91e5caf4707f5ca541316ef5176.jpg

[Flash-er]

He could be still alive. I mean Stane told his men to kill everybody. It would be kinda strange to spare him...

***Again, possible spoilers for people who haven't seen the movie***



Damn, you're right. Okay then, it would be someone from that terrorist group then. The guy who helped Tony in the beginning said that the people were from all over and one of the languages (I think) was mandarin.

[JDMC13]

I remember Stane telling Raza that technology was always his people's weakness. It would work if you made him the Mandarin and had him take this advice to heart. Instead of seeking out the latest and greatest arms, he would now push away and look deeper into emulating Genghis Khan which might lead him to the rings in some way.

You could keep a magical origin. I mean Iron Man is gonna be in a movie with Thor so it's gonna happen eventually. I think you just need to keep the motivation grounded. This is some muhahaha evil villian plot. He'll use these magical weapons to lead an army of men to world conquest. Also, don't necessarily make him an allegory for communism, but what would be cool is if the people absolutely love him. Like kids acting as willing body shields.

Have Tony be the lone avenger of America and have him be the beloved savior of the third world who isn't in it for himself but for his beliefs. Even if they include genocide.

[Flash-er]

I remember Stane telling Raza that technology was always his people's weakness. It would work if you made him the Mandarin and had him take this advice to heart. Instead of seeking out the latest and greatest arms, he would now push away and look deeper into emulating Genghis Khan which might lead him to the rings in some way.

You could keep a magical origin. I mean Iron Man is gonna be in a movie with Thor so it's gonna happen eventually. I think you just need to keep the motivation grounded. This is some muhahaha evil villian plot. He'll use these magical weapons to lead an army of men to world conquest. Also, don't necessarily make him an allegory for communism, but what would be cool is if the people absolutely love him. Like kids acting as willing body shields.

Have Tony be the lone avenger of America and have him be the beloved savior of the third world who isn't in it for himself but for his beliefs. Even if they include genocide.

Like it was already stated, Stane said to kill everyone, so it couldn't be the one he talked to. I'm thinking it more now, that the group Ten Rings is actually a subgroup for the Mandarin. Like, Mandarin already exists and he's got these groups of followers that do the work he doesn't exactly want to be connected to yet. Sorta like the US' black ops, only not as well funded. Actually, for a small terrorist group, they still had to be rather well funded since Stane didn't give them ALL of the weapons they had... My idea seems to be growing legs. :grin:

[Chris B]

You know, I don't think magic is really an integral part of the Mandarin. His rings are alien technology that are perceived and he wasn't above using technology in the comics from the 60's and 70's. He has never been a sorcerer and shouldn't be.

[Drizzle]

How do you make Mandarin work?

Simple. Get Chow Yun-Fat to play him and everything should fall into place.

[steven person]

I remember Stane telling Raza that technology was always his people's weakness. It would work if you made him the Mandarin and had him take this advice to heart. Instead of seeking out the latest and greatest arms, he would now push away and look deeper into emulating Genghis Khan which might lead him to the rings in some way.

You could keep a magical origin. I mean Iron Man is gonna be in a movie with Thor so it's gonna happen eventually. I think you just need to keep the motivation grounded. This is some muhahaha evil villian plot. He'll use these magical weapons to lead an army of men to world conquest. Also, don't necessarily make him an allegory for communism, but what would be cool is if the people absolutely love him. Like kids acting as willing body shields.

Have Tony be the lone avenger of America and have him be the beloved savior of the third world who isn't in it for himself but for his beliefs. Even if they include genocide.



are u on crack.....thats is the stupidest thing i ever heard.dear god that was bad.....

[Joker's Lackey]

How would I do the Mandarin. First I'll cast Daniel Dae Kim for the role. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0196654/

He should be The Asian equivalent to Tony Stark. But, with a strong religious/mystical belief. He should run the Ten Rings group. But he should have Ten rings that are advanced technology that gives him power. It could be base on plans from Starks miniature reactor that powers his heart, have them stolen. Maybe have a thiner, more flexible, more streamlined Ironman suit that hides inside of Mandarins robes. And have the rings power the suit. And have each ring control a different part of the suits weaponry/devices.

[JokerLedger]

How would I do the Mandarin. First I'll cast Daniel Dae Kim for the role. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0196654/

He should be The Asian equivalent to Tony Stark. But, with a strong religious/mystical belief. He should run the Ten Rings group. But he should have Ten rings that are advanced technology that gives him power. It could be base on plans from Starks miniature reactor that powers his heart, have them stolen. Maybe have a thiner, more flexible, more streamlined Ironman suit that hides inside of Mandarins robes. And have the rings power the suit. And have each ring control a different part of the suits weaponry/devices.

If that happens, The Mandarin will already have made cameos in the Spiderman and Hulk movies heehee

[spiderfan970]

He should be a worldly business man. I like the idea of him being Stark's antithesis. He has to have a real name (either Gene Khan, Zhang Tong, or Tem Borjigin I don't know). Let's go with Zhang Tong for now. Tong announces his new teleportation technology, derived from Makluan science. Tong is the CEO of Prometheus, a corporation specializing in bio-engineered weaponry.

People don't know that Zhang Tong is the leader of the ten rings, The only name they know is Mandarin.

Tong did go the Valley of the Spirits and found the crashed space ship (I like the Stargate idea in terms of logic). But they were just "gems" that had the potential for fantastic abilities, not rings. Tong is the one to harness their power and put them in ring form with his technology, slowly being driven mad by the power of the "gems" and his study of the Makluan science.

He doesn't wear his robe until the end of the movie when he is revealed to be the Mandarin and flips out. He needs his costume to power the gauntlets that the rings are on or something...They would redesign it and make it cool and give it some practical use.

Meanwhile Iron Man would become an alcoholic after something happens in the movie, and Rhodey would become Iron Man to cover for Tony. Mandarin would use his teleportation technology to kidnap Rhodey thinking that he was Iron Man. Then Tony would have to sober up, suit up, and save Rhodey in the Silver Centurion armor. They would both fight the Mandarin in his Volcano base, he would escape, and then the movie would end with them stopping Ultimo.

what do you guys think?

[GL1]

Dang, just lost a good post.

Yes to Chow Yun-Fat
Nix the Mandarin armor under the robes... no more Iron Mongers, please.
Nix the aliens. Paint the Makluans as an ancient Chinese culture who's ruins Mandarin discovers. Make the design odd enough that comics fans can call it an alien influence.
Keep the Ten Rings starting out as jewels.
Keep the spiritual/mystical bent for Mandarin.
Keep the Ten Rings being given to ten generals (ie Raza) who work for Mandarin
Keep the real name.
Keep the Asian Stark/Anti-Stark motif
Nix the capturing of Rhodey. Not a good character for a damsel in distress, and a bad character to paint as "incapable." Use him as backup in a, perhaps more heavily armored/armed/slower War Machine suit, or perhaps do an armor-switcheroo to outwit the villain.

Not sure about what 'evil powerful henchman to use.' Could be Ultimo, could be Fin Fang Foom... my favorite is some space-laser, but that might be a bit too much... but it would be an excuse for the Silver Centurion, imho. If Fin Fang Foom is just so mandatory, put him in the Makluan ruins/crash as a "statue of some sort" and have one of the rings bring him to life. I'd just use him as a dragon, not a speaking character, though he would show signs of great intelligence. Of course, having a dragon demands some questions be answered...

[spiderfan970]

I agree with you, I guess when I saw Rhodey being captured it was kind of along the lines of the Incredibles. You know, it was only like 15-20 minutes of the movie and then the rest of the family came in to break Mr. Incredible out. Something like that.

[Roaring_Hulk!]

Why do the rings have to be technological at all? If Iron Man can crossover with an Asguardian God such as Thor, why can he not use that version of Mandarin?

Not only that, but Stark also cameos in the Incredible Hulkand even though that movie is being set up as realistic, it's still about a puny human who transforms into a big, green monster.And that is a little less realistic than some very advanced suit of armor.

You can compare it with Indiana Jones. It's all quite realistic until they find a mystical Ark that's unleashes spirits and melts everyones faces off.

[protoctista]

I can't believe that anyone is seriously arguing the case of magic rings.

Regardless of the comic-book origins, there are certain elements that must be considered when presenting a story to a mainstream audience. First and foremost of those elements to be considered is genre. The term genre wasnt just invented to aid analysis by categorisation. Its vitally important in selling the product.

This works in a number of ways:
1) If I go into a bookstore, I might quite like Sci-Fi, but I'm not a big fan of erotic novels - so I go to the Sci-Fi section, not the Erotic novels section, because they're largely crass and, frankly, disturbing. In this example, perception of genre has directed me to a product.

2) Once I'm in the Sci-Fi section, I see a book heralded as Erotic-Sci-Fi. Much as I like Sci-Fi, I'm not going to pick up the Erotic-Sci-Fi because firstly, I haven't ventured so much into the Erotic genre and therefore don't want to risk my money on something which could be unenjoyable, secondly, I'm not entirely sure if I can buy the idea of those two genres mixing. I leave well alone.

3) I own a bookstore. I receive from the publishers a book that is heralded as 'the perfect blend between Sci-Fi, Erotica, Horror and Crime'. Where the hell do I put that on the bookshelf?



In the same way that genre definition works for books, aiding both buyer and seller, genre is equally important for films.

Look at the posters for Iron Man: following the conventions of Sci-Fi posters and reminiscient of Star Wars. The Iron Man suit: high-tech, streamlined, futuristic. It may have comic-book roots, but this film is firmly a Sci-Fi movie. That is what it is marketed as, that is what the mainstream cinema goer has bought into.

Not just that, it's bought into a style. Fast cars (suits), Beautiful women, playboy billionaire lifestyle, testosterone, testosterone, testosterone. This is James Bond X100, and its every male fantasy. Its cool. This is what the franchise has established itself as, this is its genre and its angle on the public conscious.




So think about it in terms of a bookstore.



Sci-Fi fans, James Bond fans, adrenalin-seeking group of lads watched the last Iron Man movie and had a lot of fun. They idolised Tony Stark as the man they'd kill to be. They see the trailer, realise it's Iron Man 2, and want more. Half way into the trailer some vague line tries to force into the franchise the concept of magic.

That's a completely different genre, with an entirely different perception, and an entirely different market (Specifically within the geek community...). It's like asking someone to pick up a book that mixes a genre they are familiar with and enjoy, with a genre that they have particular disdain for and see as crass and ridiculous.

Because I promise you now that is how the majority of Iron Man ticket-buyers see magic. They're looking for the grown-up, Man's dream, not the magic they may have had fun with as a kid.

So there's problem 1) that I mentioned earlier. The Sci-Fi/Fantasy mix of the magic rings concept isnt directing the audience into a buy.
Problem 2) as mentioned above, the audience doesnt know what the hell they're getting, and so are confused as to make of the very concept. And problem 3) is the marketing (equivilent to the bookstore finding a suitable shelf). What are you putting on the poster? Which conventions do you use? I.e. who do you sell it to?





So that is why adding magic rings doesnt work as a financial issue. Let alone the thematic issue, design inconsistencies (compare the sleek, futuristic artistic direction of Iron Man, and any Sci-Fi film to the crusty, archaic designs of any fantasy film) and problems with writing (how do you balance the two distinctly different styles? how do you mix the conventionally archaic dialogue in fantasy films to the smooth-talking suave of Tony Stark?)

Mark my words.
If the Iron Man franchise moves into magic, or attempts to cross over the two genres, it wall fall flat on its face and loose its mainstream fan base.

Also, the Avengers movie will herald the end of the superhero movie fad altogether.

[Raiden]

Mark my words.
If the Iron Man franchise moves into magic, or attempts to cross over the two genres, it wall fall flat on its face and loose its mainstream fan base.

Also, the Avengers movie will herald the end of the superhero movie fad altogether.

I think you are overreacting.

[TheVileOne]

Chow Yun Fat should not play The Mandarin. He's already played Sao Feng in Pirates of the Carribbean. And he's Master Roshi in Dragon Ball.

[RockSP]

Chow Yun Fat should not play The Mandarin.

Agreed.

[spiderfan970]

yeah it seems that the only asian actors people are aware of is Chow Yun Fat and Ken Watanabe. Although my preference would be Watanabe...that role could be too close to Ras' Al Ghul.

Also, I'm still not sure which origin would be better...but I still prefer to stay as close to the original as possible.

[ClarkLuther55]

I say just embrace the Mandarin's scifi/fantasy elements, to a reasonable extent.

SPOILERS





Especially when Iron Man was clearly made as the first step to a unified Marvel movie universe, with other superheroes and even the Avengers being mentioned. They'll do Thor, but Mandarin is too much? As long as he's not an offensive yellow-peril stereotype I think he can be done.

[TheVileOne]

Believe it or not, there are Asian actors that exist other than Ken Watanabe and Chow Yun Fat.

[chamber-music]

yeah it seems that the only asian actors people are aware of is Chow Yun Fat and Ken Watanabe. Although my preference would be Watanabe...that role could be too close to Ras' Al Ghul.

Also, I'm still not sure which origin would be better...but I still prefer to stay as close to the original as possible.

Believe it or not, there are Asian actors that exist other than Ken Watanabe and Chow Yun Fat.

I agree just because they played asian villians in a couple of Hollywood movies doesn't mean that have to play Asian villians in every Hollywood movie.

Andy Lau or HIROYUKI SANADA would be a better Mandarian.

[Chris B]

Chow Yun Fat should not play The Mandarin. He's already played Sao Feng in Pirates of the Carribbean. And he's Master Roshi in Dragon Ball.

I disagree. As much as he is the obvious choice, he fits the role. And with the all-star cast they have now, I think they sorta need somebody with a comparable on-screen presence.

[The Guard]

Chow Yun Fat should not play The Mandarin. He's already played Sao Feng in Pirates of the Carribbean. And he's Master Roshi in Dragon Ball.

So...because he's played fantasy characters in the past...

Help me out here.

He seems the obvious choice because Marvel will want a name as a villain.

[spiderfan970]

Believe it or not, there are Asian actors that exist other than Ken Watanabe and Chow Yun Fat.

Yeah, I mean I was just saying which one I would pick...but really it's time for someone else.

[Leto]

I could accept Chow Yun Fat as the Mandarin, but truthfully I feel he and Ken Watanabe a little overplayed in America. There are other asian actors besides them. They're the go-to guys for asian leads.

Favreau has set his sights on two villains. The Mandarin and Fin Fang Foom. Both have a shared origin. Mandarin gets his rings from a crashed alien ship, Fin is an alien.

Now, where the film will depart from the comcis is that FFF will not be some lumbering giant lizard. Looking at Iron Man: Viva Las Vega, a movie tie-in comic written by John Favreau, Favreau is aiming for a nasty, space alien monster.

What I'm guessing is that Mandy's origin will remain mostly the same. As a younger man he goes out looking for treasure in a isolated chinese valley and finds a cave. Searching he discovers the remains of a crashed alien ship that is burried deep in the earth. Exploring, he comes upon the rings and learns that there is another piece of the ship somwhere else.

I'm guessing that any mystical aspect to the character will arise from his meditation in order to use his mentally activated rings, and possibly the Mandarin billing himself as a sorcerer of sorts to superstitious people he meets to intimidate them. The latter I could easily see dropped in favor of the modern businessman look he has donned in his recent comic appearances. Indeed, how much of this gets on screen is debatable, an explanation by the Mandarin might be superior to a flashback or origin scene.

FFF will be a stranded alien bio-weapon that is slumbering in the pacific ocean or something, maybe in the other half of the crashed alien ship or "egg". Mandarin, from his legitimate business and terrorist activites is funding a search for the body of Fin Fang Foom, so that using his rings he can awake and control the dragon to have an unstoppable weapon to control the world.

Works for me. It doesn't have to be more complex than that.

[Kokomo29]

There is this constant debate of whether he could be pulled off as real or not, but I think that if Favreau did add a little magical element, he could do it in a very tasteful way that could be taken seriously. I believe that he could do it in a manner that wouldn't come off as funny or unbelievable, but strong and convincing. The characters don't even have to believe in magic, but when they are faced with it they are a little stunned and taken back. Their reactions and approach to these mystical elements could very easily mirror the audience's reaction and allow for a stronger sense of believability and overall acceptance. Downey and Howard's characters are very "real" characters and I believe that it would be very interesting to see their reactions to a mystical force the likes of which they never even knew could actually exist. Their struggle to believe it and understand would allow the audience to be able to relate to them and allow them to go along the journey as well. Just my two cents...

[Leto]

And yet Mandarin's origin involves alien technology which is "tastefully mystical." He has extraorinairy technology that operates at a level virtually equivalent to magic. That's all you need.

[GoldGoblin]

They should change the powers of the rings a little bit,like:
-Red:Fire,like a flamethrower etc.
-Blue:Ice,freeze blasts,etc.
-Green:Shoots a Anti-Gravity Beam that can pick up things and then throws them.
-Yellow:Walk through walls.
-White:Force Field.
-Purple:Fly.
-Black:Invisible.
-Orange:Super Speed.
-Chrome/Silver Disintegrate Beam,turns living things to dust.
-Shiny Gold:Electromagnetic Compatibility(EMC)able to turn things off that use electricity.

[Leto]

Why? Fav could certainly get away with it, but why have a ring that lets him fly and also a gravity control ring? I'd let him have powers which benefit the script I guess.

[chamber-music]

They should change the powers of the rings a little bit,like:
-Red:Fire,like a flamethrower etc.
-Blue:Ice,freeze blasts,etc.
-Green:Shoots a Anti-Gravity Beam that can pick up things and then throws them.
-Yellow:Walk through walls.
-White:Force Field.
-Purple:Fly.
-Black:Invisible.
-Orange:Super Speed.
-Chrome/Silver Disintegrate Beam,turns living things to dust.
-Shiny Gold:Electromagnetic Compatibility(EMC)able to turn things off that use electricity.

whoops what happened, that totally wasn't what I pasted on here, god I hate the internet sometimes

[RockSP]

^^Surely this $#@t isn't allowed...?

[Iron_Stark]

chamber-music, remove that quickly or be banned.

[spiderfan970]

How'd this die? So what do we have so far?

[GL1]

Also, the Avengers movie will herald the end of the superhero movie fad altogether.

I was with your RIGHT up until then.

As for "where we are"

There seems to be indication that TPTB are going for the alien origin, which sits particularly uncomfortable with me. I'd actually appreciate oblique mysticism if that means keeping the story terrestrial. I could even deal with an alien origin of the rings as long as the aliens, perhaps minus FFF are taken out of the narrative picture.

To me, no matter how closely the franchises are linked, even if they're in the same universe, the Avengers franchise and the Iron Man franchise are different things, with their own internal rulesets and themes. Just because something works in one, doesn't mean it works in the other. Inverse statement as well.

[Uzumaki_Naruto]

the whole genre argument holds weight until you realize that Iron Man falls under a more broad category: Action/Adventure.

when you look at that genre you can see many different paths one can follow. You can break it down into Fantasy Epics like Lord of the Rings, sci-fi like the Terminator franchise, etc. etc.

The other thing to consider is this is the whole reason Marvel Studios was established: so they didn't need to compromise their mythology and characters. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby hit some sort of nerve when they created all these characters in the 60s and 70s, now granted, some things need to be changed for the current world we live in but there is no reason that 10 magical rings cannot work in a world where a reborn Norse god shares the same planet as billionaire industrialist wearing a suit of armor and a man who can climb on walls or a half human/half vampire.

After watching Iron Man, one thing became clear: trust Marvel, they know what they're doing.

[Cinemaman]

I would really like to see the battle between Iron Man and Mandarin as technology versus magic. But I hope there won't be any alien stuff, as it's really irritating. I was disappointed with Indy IV ending, so I hope there won't be any connection with aliens.

What about communism, they just should replace it just like how they did that with Vietnam. It's really unnecessary considering the current political situation.

[Raiden]

I would really like to see the battle between Iron Man and Mandarin as technology versus magic. But I hope there won't be any alien stuff, as it's really irritating. I was disappointed with Indy IV ending, so I hope there won't be any connection with aliens.

What about communism, they just should replace it just like how they did that with Vietnam. It's really unnecessary considering the current political situation.

Well, if Mandarin's rings were alien technology instead of magical, then maybe they can introduce Skulls in the Avengers movie, and explained that those rings came from Skull technology.

[terry78]

In Favreau's last interview, he mentioned that from the 60's version, Mandarin was a little out there and a tad racist, to be honest. I agree with that, but there have been more recent versions that weren't as Fu-Manchu like in their manner, but more of a suave, cold corporate-type. I personally want him in these movies at some point, even as a cameo in the sequel. How would you go about bringing him to life?

[dark_b]

the first movie set a tone. and this tone was very specific. they could have teased something that is not from this world. but they didnt. everything was in a semi realistic vay. of course the technology doesnt exist. but it was still technology.

it will be hard. and people will laugh at magic in an iron man movie.

[Nepenthes]

Maybe the ten rings should be a controlling mechanism for a technologically-based 'magic' of sorts. It's uses nano-tech, magnetic fields, particle streams blah blah blah but essentially he uses the rings to create explosions, air vaccums, temperature differences etc by "writing" the code in the air with his fingers, almost like typing or a sign language. This way it's a technology advanced enough to rival Starks yet it's also quite unique. As Arthur C Clarke says any technology that is advanced beyond our understanding is essentially magic. You could also see how it would have practicle applications so it's not all just mad scientist stuff, he's a leader of industry and innovation and just happens to part of the greatest threat to American interests in all of history.

I wouldn't be afraid of being politically correct, Mandarin has always been about the clash of civilisations and it's the ripest ground for exploration and a superhero film that can also be slightly topical and mature. I'd make the Americans and Chinese just as racist and sterotypical as each other. this can could only add fun and layers and weight to the movie.

[Mal'Akai]

Why do so many want Chow Yun Fat or Ken Wantanabe? These are not the only two asian actors out there. Also, why does Mandarin have to be older? Why not make him ageless? Would go with the more mystical parts of his character.
Try this guy... (Broken Sword from Hero)
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0504897/
Or this guy... (King of Qin from Hero)
http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2004_Hero/2004_hero_006.jpg

[terry78]

I'd go with John Lone for Mandarin. Not so famous that he'd draw attention away, but well known enough for his past roles that he has the chops to do it.

http://www.shinkendo.com/images/shadow.jpg

[fu manchu]

^out of curiosity, which one is Lone? I'm assuming its the one in the right.

[terry78]

^out of curiosity, which one is Lone? I'm assuming its the one in the right.

Left. He was the villain in Rush Hour 2, the villain in the Shadow, and was in a Hong Kong indie flick called Paper Moon Affair, which was very well done.

[fu manchu]

oh yeah, he could be good. although, i'm not sold on that picture.

Btw, where is the picture from?

[Jordacar]

Why do so many want Chow Yun Fat or Ken Wantanabe? These are not the only two asian actors out there. Also, why does Mandarin have to be older? Why not make him ageless? Would go with the more mystical parts of his character.
Try this guy... (Broken Sword from Hero)
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0504897/
Or this guy... (King of Qin from Hero)
http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2004_Hero/2004_hero_006.jpg

There's also Andy Lau (Leo in "House of Flying Daggers" and the evil mole in "Infernal Affairs")
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0490489/
http://www.oneinchpunch.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/warlords-andy-lau.jpg

[The Question]

Mandarin is based on communism, the conflict with which is dated

The Mandarin's origins has ties to the cultural revolution, but he's not communist. He's a staunch anti-communist, actually. His plans have always centered around overthrowing the communist government of China and creating a new Chinese empire.

[The Question]

Anyway, giving mystical aspects to the character, which do exist in the comics, should be done in the film. But don't just say "it's magic, lulz." Put some thought into it. Way I see it: As far as The Mandarin is concerned, magic and science are very much the same thing. It's all a matter of perspective. Science strives for an objective viewpoint, whereas magic strives for a subjective viewpoint. Look into modern day mystical philosophies that cite quantum physics to explain how magic might be real and might not be as far removed from the realms of science as we think. And have that be an aspect of his own personal spiritual philosophies. Basically, do it, but don't half ass it. Make it real, or at least as real as you can.

As for the rings, have them be alien in origin. He found scraps of technology in ruins he stumbled across in the sleeping valley. Nothing that worked, but raw materials (like ten small gems that served as very impressive power sources) and enough broken but intact things to give him ideas. Tie that into his philosophy, too. Have him go on about how, while he's sure they're extra-terrestrial in origin, he still thinks it's a divine gift, showing that he's destined to retake China.

[kyuubijavi1]

I'm pretty sure the ring Raza the terrorist leader had was symbolic. Not an actual artifact, just a symbol he was a lieutenant of the Mandarin.

And with regards to communism China is now more than ever still an economic powerhouse in the world. Having the Mandarin represent their industrial power could provide subtle political commentary.

I'd keep the alien rings if their tone could be adequately portrayed. Iron Man is going to be interacting with a mythical god in Avengers, he's got to be able to fight larger than life characters in his own flicks.

I'd go with the origin that Gene Khan travelled to a remote valley in China where an alien spaceship crashed thousands of years ago, found flawed or damaged gauntlets or something that controlled the ship, and then set out to build an empire.

Fin Fang Foom is getting a redesign in Iron Man: Viva Las Vegas, and I keep imagining Iron Man zipping around a crazy looking dragon with the Mandarin on its back shooting energy blasts from his rings.

Gotta agree with this guy He's going to be teaming up with a god a demi god and a legend Iron Man's gotta step up his game and prove what hes got and hell if Indy can have aligns so can Iron Man I mean it wasnt that realistic lol

[MercuryEnigma]

Potential Problems:

Origin involves aliens and alien technology
Several of the rings are virtually magical, defying even pseudo-science
Mandarin is based on communism, the conflict with which is dated

You're absolutely, positively right G1. The Mandarin is a tough character to use in a contemporary setting. They went with an evil rival as a villain in the first Iron Man and it worked. Why not use that formula again?

How I would do the Mandarin:
First off, forget Communism. It still exists, but it's not as important as good vs. evil.

I would make him a mirror Tony. A wealthy Chinese tech developer and philanthropist as an exterior alter ego, similar to Tony, but beneath it, an greedy evil genius, part of a centuries-old group, that goes back to Ghengis Khan known as the Sleeping Dragon, of which the Mandarin has a tattoo on his stomach. He got the basis of all his technology from that age-old group and turned it into a global terrorist group known as the ten rings. You would leave most of the extra-terrestrial stuff a mystery and hint at it. You don't need to explain everything. Make it part Chinese lore and part centuries-old extraterrestrial contact.

So he has 10 jewels of different unknown elements that when you run a power through, they have different properties (like heat, cold, disintegration, focused electricity, molecular transmutation, etc). At a Global Technologies Gala or something along the lines, Tony is showcasing his arc reactor as a new long-lasting energy source. The Mandarin, who is posing as Zhang Tong, his alter ego is at the Gala, but has his goons steal the arc reactor to eliminate suspicion. He duplicates these reactors and shrinks them down as rings with the jewels in them. BAM! you got his ten rings right there.

[Raiden]

Left. He was the villain in Rush Hour 2, the villain in the Shadow, and was in a Hong Kong indie flick called Paper Moon Affair, which was very well done.

John Lone was also in The Year of the Dragon with Mickey Rouke, and in The Last Emperor with Joan Chan.

[Raiden]

[/LIST]

You're absolutely, positively right G1. The Mandarin is a tough character to use in a contemporary setting. They went with an evil rival as a villain in the first Iron Man and it worked. Why not use that formula again?

How I would do the Mandarin:
First off, forget Communism. It still exists, but it's not as important as good vs. evil.

I would make him a mirror Tony. A wealthy Chinese tech developer and philanthropist as an exterior alter ego, similar to Tony, but beneath it, an greedy evil genius, part of a centuries-old group, that goes back to Ghengis Khan known as the Sleeping Dragon, of which the Mandarin has a tattoo on his stomach. He got the basis of all his technology from that age-old group and turned it into a global terrorist group known as the ten rings. You would leave most of the extra-terrestrial stuff a mystery and hint at it. You don't need to explain everything. Make it part Chinese lore and part centuries-old extraterrestrial contact.

So he has 10 jewels of different unknown elements that when you run a power through, they have different properties (like heat, cold, disintegration, focused electricity, molecular transmutation, etc). At a Global Technologies Gala or something along the lines, Tony is showcasing his arc reactor as a new long-lasting energy source. The Mandarin, who is posing as Zhang Tong, his alter ego is at the Gala, but has his goons steal the arc reactor to eliminate suspicion. He duplicates these reactors and shrinks them down as rings with the jewels in them. BAM! you got his ten rings right there.

That sounds like a very good origin for The Mandarin, and one that won't compromise IM's realism and believability.

[tamron]

[/LIST]I would make him a mirror Tony. A wealthy Chinese tech developer and philanthropist as an exterior alter ego, similar to Tony, but beneath it, an greedy evil genius, part of a centuries-old group, that goes back to Ghengis Khan known as the Sleeping Dragon, of which the Mandarin has a tattoo on his stomach. He got the basis of all his technology from that age-old group and turned it into a global terrorist group known as the ten rings. You would leave most of the extra-terrestrial stuff a mystery and hint at it. You don't need to explain everything. Make it part Chinese lore and part centuries-old extraterrestrial contact.

So he has 10 jewels of different unknown elements that when you run a power through, they have different properties (like heat, cold, disintegration, focused electricity, molecular transmutation, etc). At a Global Technologies Gala or something along the lines, Tony is showcasing his arc reactor as a new long-lasting energy source. The Mandarin, who is posing as Zhang Tong, his alter ego is at the Gala, but has his goons steal the arc reactor to eliminate suspicion. He duplicates these reactors and shrinks them down as rings with the jewels in them. BAM! you got his ten rings right there.

Something along those lines works for me. However, I think that rather than stealing it, Tong is able to analyze, improve, and miniturize the Arc Reactor after seeing it. It would get across the point that this is an intellectual equal to Stark and establish him as a major threat to the audience.

[Hiruu]

It's pretty easy to make the mandarin work imho...just use the comic-based character...period!

Sure, update the character and remove some stereotypes, but Iron Man is the creative product of a super genius, so the rings of the mandarin are so powerful and un-fathomable by our science that it replicates magic, but here's the things, make sure you provide some explanation in the movie about the origin of the rings..."...5000 years ago, alien artifacts crash and the stones where fashioned onto 10 rings of power..." It seems pretty easy to me...in the movie, Iron Man's tech is mind boggling...but he encounters alien technology that makes his look primitive, so it takes his ingenuity and the help of War Machine to finally take down the Mandarin. The key is to NOT kill the Mandarin, but leave him open as a villain to return, for Iron Man 3. The thing about it is that chronologically, it's probably going to be IM2...a whole bunch of other properties to get the Avengers fleshed out....then Iron Man 3. We're talking about 4-5 years between IM2 and IM3 most likely and maybe even longer.

[MercuryEnigma]

Something along those lines works for me. However, I think that rather than stealing it, Tong is able to analyze, improve, and miniturize the Arc Reactor after seeing it. It would get across the point that this is an intellectual equal to Stark and establish him as a major threat to the audience.

Yea, definitely! Good idea.

[Nepenthes]

Anyway, giving mystical aspects to the character, which do exist in the comics, should be done in the film. But don't just say "it's magic, lulz." Put some thought into it. Way I see it: As far as The Mandarin is concerned, magic and science are very much the same thing. It's all a matter of perspective. Science strives for an objective viewpoint, whereas magic strives for a subjective viewpoint. Look into modern day mystical philosophies that cite quantum physics to explain how magic might be real and might not be as far removed from the realms of science as we think. And have that be an aspect of his own personal spiritual philosophies. Basically, do it, but don't half ass it. Make it real, or at least as real as you can.

I would make him a mirror Tony. A wealthy Chinese tech developer and philanthropist as an exterior alter ego, similar to Tony, but beneath it, an greedy evil genius, part of a centuries-old group, that goes back to Ghengis Khan known as the Sleeping Dragon, of which the Mandarin has a tattoo on his stomach. He got the basis of all his technology from that age-old group and turned it into a global terrorist group known as the ten rings. You would leave most of the extra-terrestrial stuff a mystery and hint at it. You don't need to explain everything. Make it part Chinese lore and part centuries-old extraterrestrial contact.


I fully agree with both these posts. Magic works best when it has its own internal logic.....and of course the crossroads of sorcery and technology is a particularly interesting angle for Iron Man. It goes back to Asimovs Law of Magic which is so basic and easy to relate to yet still so compelling even to ordinary people. The idea I posted before would dove-tail well with Mercury's type of origin background. The rings should be technological tools for writing magic, i.e. coding in a language that we simply don't understand. There could be so many cool visuals. E.g. as he signs with his fingers an exotic text language appears suspended in the air and he drags the pieces around like a holographic computer screen a la Minority Report, then he executes the command and the air itself suddenly explodes or freezes or whatever. He's re-writing the laws of physics and reality and it makes Tony Stark look like a cro-magnon waving a blunt stick; a good challenge that also sets up a nice extreme dichotomy of cultures, East VS West etc, both using totally different technologies with the old Orient being presented as more advanced, unknowable, alien. Which is the way Chinese have been perceived by the rest of the world throughout the majority of history

[GL1]

That makes me very, VERY happy. The Rings as a holographic type magic-looking control mechanism for all his devices. That could be unbearably cool.

I still have this image of him taking over (or making) a space laser and using his rings to fry someone with a big giant beam... as well as messing with Tony's armor using the rings. Waving his hands and opening electronic mechanisms... while giving how his philosophy fuses with magic, the visuals of his technology border on magic as well.

Clearly, Mandi needs to be the Anti-Tony... it'd be nice if he out Tony's Tony when Tony's on the bottle. That'd be crazy.

But you've done the impossible, you've given Mandarin his "magics" his rings and made him palatable in a tech-based setting. Applause.

Now... what are you guys gonna do about Fin Fang Foom? A Giant Robotic Dragon seems... overkill. Name the big space laser Fing Fang Foom? Leave him as a dragon carving in a cave? Both of these?

[EternalMaster]

Yeah, in the comics, the rings are tech-based. Alien tech.

I'm not sure why so many people want to change that to "magic" for the movie. If you want true magic, wait for Thor.

Now in Iron Man 2, if Mandarin's tech is described as so advanced that it is practically "magical", that would be fine.

The idea of holographic projections crafted in the air to display the control of the rings is a NEAT concept. The rings would treat nature like Tom Cruise treated the computer in Minority Report. Instead of manipulating something virtual, the rings allow the wearer to manipulate reality itself.

Now of course, the rings are alien tech... so while Mandarin has figured out how to use them, he hasn't figured out how to expand their uses. So the rings can only do very specific things (like freeze objects, release intense heat/fire, unleash electric blasts, etc.).

But I would not play up Mandarin as a typical "I want to take over the world!!!!" type of guy. That's boring and cliche. I'd simply make Mandarin's Stark intellectual rival and business rival.

Stane was a cutthroat businessman. He was relatively smart, but nowhere near Tony's level. He had to STEAL tech from Tony because even the team of scientists he hired couldn't replicate what Stark built in a cave... with a box of scraps.

With mandarin, I'd have him be an incredibly ingenius asian businessman and inventor. Like Stark originally kept his arclight reactor (the heart thing) a secret, Mandarin will keep the ten rings a secret. While a savvy businessman by day (probably working out of Hong Kong, but also helping to industrialize and urbanize mainland China to one day overtake America economically), his side life is running the Ten Rings group.

Raza seemed to go a bit "rogue" last film once he had the Jericho missiles, trying to take over villages and such. I'd have Mandarin's goal be loftier: he wants a unification of Asia similar to how the European Union is making Europe an economic powerhouse. On the legal side, he tries to expand China's political and economic influence over the East. When that fails, he has the Ten Rings reign terror upon those who resist.

And all the while, the Mandarin would his greatest tech, his rings, kept secret... always studying them and learning how to manipulate their power.

The idea of alien technology wouldn't be too much of a stretch. As is, Stark is inventing stuff that is quite futuristic, and audiences have always been willing to accept the idea of alien life in sci-fi movies. Just keep the alien stuff simple here. Mandarin (or his people) find the wreckage of a strange ship somewhere in China (desert, wilderness, countryside, whatever). Maybe some of Mandarin's people believed the ship to be some experimental United States aircraft, but the Mandarin, being the genius he is, sees the ship as far beyond what human hands can construct. And he alone would be the one to learn how to use such powerful technology.

In the movie, I'd definitely play up a company-to-company rivalry between Stark and Mandarin. The stress os battling terrorism AND running a billion-dollar-business each day would start to turn Stark to alcoholism, and unbeknownst to him, Mandarin is the one running him ragged both in the business world and hero world.

Rhodes would take over as Iron Man while his friend gets his act together, and perhaps this would be when Mandarin first steps in and uses his rings. So Jim defeats a Ten Rings cell, only for the real threat to show up and beat him down (after a good fight).

Perhaps the event sobers up Stark, and after much talk with Rhodes, Stark decides the best way to take down Mandarin isn't to outdo him in tech (impossible since the alien tech is so advanced) but instead to out-strategize him.

Stark and Rhodes then plan some kind of doubleteam attack that Mandarin would not anticipate and beat him. I'd definitely hope they keep Mandarin alive though. So even though he's defeated on the hero-side of things, in the end, he released by SHIELD because of some kind of immunity granted to him by the Chinese government.

That's all speculative thinking of course. I'm sure Favreau will come up with something 10 times better because really... I never could've thought up an origin film for Iron Man as good as what Favreau gave us.

[EternalMaster]

Oh, and for the Thor cameo, I'd have Stark relaxing on his couch watching TV as he checks over some new armor designs. On the TV, a reporter talks about a reported sighting of Iron Man battling some kind of villain with "magic rings". Just like Stark corrected the newspapers calling him Iron Man last movie (the part where he says, "Well, the armor is really made of blah blah blah blah alloy, but the name is catchy"), I'd have Stark say something at the TV like, "Magic? The rings had a blah blah blah blah spacial-dilation effect, but that's hardly 'magic'."

Then I'd have the next TV news report show footage a man weilding a war hammer who arrived in New York amid a flurry of lightning to stop a bank robbery.

Stark would pause for a second in disbelief and then say, "Now that's magic."

[GL1]

<<Stumbles after critical hit from wall of text>>

audiences have always been willing to accept the idea of alien life in sci-fi movies.
Many of my ex-Indy fans would disagree. I don't think the existance of alien life has ever been a side-story or subplot either.

Leave the aliens a vague possibility at best. Accentuate the mystical. The conflict between "magic" and technology is infinitely more interesting than the conflict between Earth and the Makluans. No matter how you slice it, the Makluans are a story-killer, and they should not be directly included.

[Gatchamanjp]

First if...The Mandarin is the villain you ditch the Fu Manchu dialogue. Second you cast someone like Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa as Mandarin. Next, instead of his rings being magic, allow them new tech abilities, lasers, gravity rays, electro magnetic pulses etc. Finally, instead of the Mandarin being able to damage Iron Man's armor with kung fu, give him either an energy sword (more alien tech) or an adamantium one.

[EternalMaster]

<<Stumbles after critical hit from wall of text>>


Many of my ex-Indy fans would disagree. I don't think the existance of alien life has ever been a side-story or subplot either.

Leave the aliens a vague possibility at best. Accentuate the mystical. The conflict between "magic" and technology is infinitely more interesting than the conflict between Earth and the Makluans. No matter how you slice it, the Makluans are a story-killer, and they should not be directly included.

"Makluan" should never be mentioned in the movie. Just the discovery of a crashed, advanced ship that the Mandarin realizes is alien in nature.

And Indiana Jones was not really a sci-fi series before the Crystal Skull movie. The first three films dealt with an adventurer in search of magic artifacts that indeed turned out to have true power everytime. Using aliens killed the series for me as well because... well, Indy was never about advanced tech or sci-fi stuff. He was about fantasy adventure... searching for mystic stuff.

Iron Man IS sci-fi in the purest sense. We have advanced, futuristic tech out the whazoo even if the backdrop is a "real world" setting.

Alien tech? Fits right in with the Iron Man world. As I've said, in a SCI-FI setting, audiences never have a problem believing in aliens. Here, the alien stuff wouldn't even be expounded upon. The alien wreckage discovered would simply supply the Mandarin with the technology needed to craft the rings.

No need for alien names or explanations. Just a crashed ship that Mandarin recognizes as having technology (in the wreckage) as beyond human engineering. That's it.

When in use, the rings would almost seem to be "magic" because they are so advanced, but Stark would realize at least the theoretical science behind the rings, knowing they are tech-based rather than some hokey mystic force.

[GL1]

Iron Man IS sci-fi in the purest sense.

No, quite simply, it is not. Iron Man is borderline Sci-fi at best, using a fictional powersource to power otherwise real-world machinery. There is no alien conflict in Iron Man. It is not set in outer space. Not in the future. Definitely not the "purest sense." Definitely not futuristic tech out the wazoo (one suit doing things modern machines already do). Definitely not a Sci-fi setting (present day Earth). Your perception of Iron Man's sci-finess is grossly exaggerated.

So with borderline Sci-Fi, you have to do borderline aliens. These power sources that fell from the sky... are they meteorites? Power sources for alien ships... the ancient Chinese murals seem to think so, but who knows what they think, them and their crazy four-armed dragons. That's all you can do, because clearly defining them as aliens creates a slew of questions (Who were they? Where are they now? Are they coming back? What could they do?) and creates a new conflict (human vs alien) that has to be addressed if included, and thus, takes away time from the important and relevant conflicts of the film. Just like it did for Indy, regardless of the difference in genre.

The jump from one fictional power source to aliens out there running around with super-technology is too big a leap for the mainstream audience that's enjoying Iron Man. The difference between the core conflicts of the storyline and the Aliens vs Humans conflict is too steep to integrate it into the storyline.


No need for alien names or explanations. Just a crashed ship that Mandarin recognizes as having technology (in the wreckage) as beyond human engineering. That's it.

That's the same as saying it's alien. And throwing in the existence of powerful aliens as a one-liner is far worse than saying "magic lulz."

[imnotbatman]

who is margarin? sorry i dont feel like reading all these pages.

[GL1]

Mandarin is the most well-known Iron Man villain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_%28comics%29

[imnotbatman]

Mandarin is the most well-known Iron Man villain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_%28comics%29


he looks kinda hokey. i dont know if that character would work in a movie.

[GL1]

Which is why he has a thread on how to make him work for a film... so we can figure out how to make him not hokey. Welcome to the Hype!

[RockSP]

who is margarin? sorry i dont feel like reading all these pages.

"Margarin"?

:hehe::hehe::hehe:

[EternalMaster]

No, quite simply, it is not.

Yes, quite simply, it is. Feel free to look up definitions for science fiction.

Iron Man is borderline Sci-fi at best, using a fictional powersource to power otherwise real-world machinery.

It's pure science fiction. Take a look at the phrase. "Science"... "fiction". Does Iron Man involve advanced science beyond what the world today can conceive? Yes. Does this of this science take place in a purely fictional way? Yes.

Put 'em together and what do you got? Sci-fi. By your definition, no movie involving timetravel is "sci-fi"... just "borderline sci-fi" because one day people will be able to build that kind of machinery.

I guess "Time Cop" was a nice "borderline" sci-fi movie to you.

No, no. The simple fact is that Iron Man is a piece of machinery that is well beyond anything of this Earth and powered by a source of energy that is likewise far beyond this world's technology. Then, the guy uses this technology PRIVATELY to fight injustice. His home is also decked out with technology that is decades beyond what is possible. I mean, the guy has a computer system with artificial intelligence and robot helpers.

It is science fiction.

There is no alien conflict in Iron Man.

Nor would there be one in the sequel I suggested.

It is not set in outer space. Not in the future. Definitely not the "purest sense."

Isaac Asimov is one of the world's most famous sci-fi writers. His stories were often set on Earth and involved robots. That was the core center of some of his greatest stories. In Iron Man, the idea of intelligent robots and computer programs is just tossed in there. The story basically says, "Stark is so insanely smart, he has all kinds of crazy future tech hanging out in his house as of TODAY."

This is no problem for the audience to accept because (1) it's a sci-fi movie and (2) a decent enough reason is given for why that stuff is there.

Definitely not futuristic tech out the wazoo (one suit doing things modern machines already do). Definitely not a Sci-fi setting (present day Earth). Your perception of Iron Man's sci-finess is grossly exaggerated.

No, it's right on key. To be soldily sci-fi, a movie doesn't need to take place in the future, with aliens, in outer space. It can take place on Earth and just involve crazy fictional science.

Frankenstein, while a horror story, is also a sci-fi story in part. A mad scientist creates life by surgically grafting body parts together and using a machine that harnesses lightning. All of this takes place on Earth. All of this took place during the time period in which the story was written. Now surely, the horror elements of the story were larger, so it's mainly a horror novel. But even today, it is regarded as a founding work in the sci-fi genre.

So with borderline Sci-Fi, you have to do borderline aliens.

I still disagree with you on "borderline sc-fi", but YES, I agree the alien stuff should be "borderline". I've said this all along. Keep it to a minimum, and it will work best.

These power sources that fell from the sky... are they meteorites? Power sources for alien ships... the ancient Chinese murals seem to think so, but who knows what they think, them and their crazy four-armed dragons. That's all you can do, because clearly defining them as aliens creates a slew of questions (Who were they? Where are they now? Are they coming back? What could they do?) and creates a new conflict (human vs alien) that has to be addressed if included, and thus, takes away time from the important and relevant conflicts of the film. Just like it did for Indy, regardless of the difference in genre.

Just like it did for Indy 4? The movie that centered 100% around aliens and alien artifacts? In Indy, the alien stuff WAS the main conflict of the film. Nothing was taken away by showing alien stuff. The alien stuff was the entire focus of the movie (with the side-story of Indy's personal life).

In Iron Man, simply referencing the materials used to create the rings as extraterrestrial is enough. Not only is this a sci-fi movie, it's a superhero movie. Now that doesn't give producers and writers a blank check to do whatever they want.

But a simple implication that aliens exist is not hard for people to accept AT ALL. Especially when people in the general audience already know Iron Man and the Silver Surfer belong to the same company. Sure, FOX owns the rights to Surfer right now, but most people in the audience don't understand that. Most non-comic fans I know can't wait for Wolverine or the X-Men to meet Iron Man.

So to the general audience in a sci-fi movie, the mere SUGGESTION of alien technology being found on Earth is no big stretch at all. Especially if you don't focus on it being "alien". Just something found in old wreckage that a man like Mandarin would recognize as being beyond current human capability. But more specifically to an audience in a Marvel superhero film, the idea of aliens isn't just acceptable... it's readily acceptible.

Still, like I said earlier, I'd play things safe and not hammer the alien stuff. Just introduce it as a way for Mandarin to gain his technological advantage in weaponry. He'd still be the one to use the raw parts of the wreckage to construct the rings, and from that point on, the rings would just be seen as great inventions of the Mandarin.

The jump from one fictional power source to aliens out there running around with super-technology is too big a leap for the mainstream audience that's enjoying Iron Man. The difference between the core conflicts of the storyline and the Aliens vs Humans conflict is too steep to integrate it into the storyline.

There wouldn't be an "alien/human" conflict. The core conflict would revolve around the clash of cultures and philosophies that Mandarin and Stark adhere to. Stark is still an industrialist, but now he believes in making the world better through good old American ingenuity. He'll invent better tech to prevent corrupt people from using to tech/weapons to harm others. Mandarin would be the guy who wants to put Asia in America's position: dominant world superpower. And he'll abuse technology to get his way no matter what.

The fact that he can fight Iron Man due to his weapons is just a cool extra... that their conflict in beliefs can be expressed in a physical battle.

That's the same as saying it's alien. And throwing in the existence of powerful aliens as a one-liner is far worse than saying "magic lulz."

I'd say finding extraterrestrial wreckage that can be used to create new weaponry is easier to swallow for the audience than magic and mysticism.

Magic in Iron Man = alien stuff in Indiana Jones. The same way most people were like, "Alien tech in Indy? YUCK!" they'd say, "Magical stuff in Iron Man? DUMB!"

The only other option is: Mandarin creates the rings from Earth materials and his own genius. Now he's suddenly 10 times smarter than Stark, who is completely incapable of crafting handheld weapons that can do stuff like freeze objects, affect gravity, control wind, etc.

I think if you combo "Mandarin is a genius" with "and he found some advanced technology", people would go, "Ohhhh, so that's how he has an advantage over Stark!"

[Genixx]

please, for the love of god... none of this...
http://underworld.fortunecity.com/blood/201/marvel/mandarin002.JPG

[GL1]

What do I do to deserve these massive tedious walls of text?

Yes, quite simply, it is. Feel free to look up definitions for science fiction.

It's pure science fiction. Take a look at the phrase. "Science"... "fiction". Does Iron Man involve advanced science beyond what the world today can conceive? Yes. Does this of this science take place in a purely fictional way? Yes.

Put 'em together and what do you got? Sci-fi. By your definition, no movie involving timetravel is "sci-fi"... just "borderline sci-fi" because one day people will be able to build that kind of machinery.

I guess "Time Cop" was a nice "borderline" sci-fi movie to you.

No, no. The simple fact is that Iron Man is a piece of machinery that is well beyond anything of this Earth and powered by a source of energy that is likewise far beyond this world's technology. Then, the guy uses this technology PRIVATELY to fight injustice. His home is also decked out with technology that is decades beyond what is possible. I mean, the guy has a computer system with artificial intelligence and robot helpers.

It is science fiction.

Nor would there be one in the sequel I suggested.

Isaac Asimov is one of the world's most famous sci-fi writers. His stories were often set on Earth and involved robots. That was the core center of some of his greatest stories. In Iron Man, the idea of intelligent robots and computer programs is just tossed in there. The story basically says, "Stark is so insanely smart, he has all kinds of crazy future tech hanging out in his house as of TODAY."

This is no problem for the audience to accept because (1) it's a sci-fi movie and (2) a decent enough reason is given for why that stuff is there.

No, it's right on key. To be soldily sci-fi, a movie doesn't need to take place in the future, with aliens, in outer space. It can take place on Earth and just involve crazy fictional science.

Frankenstein, while a horror story, is also a sci-fi story in part. A mad scientist creates life by surgically grafting body parts together and using a machine that harnesses lightning. All of this takes place on Earth. All of this took place during the time period in which the story was written. Now surely, the horror elements of the story were larger, so it's mainly a horror novel. But even today, it is regarded as a founding work in the sci-fi genre.

I still disagree with you on "borderline sc-fi", but YES, I agree the alien stuff should be "borderline". I've said this all along. Keep it to a minimum, and it will work best.

Just like it did for Indy 4? The movie that centered 100% around aliens and alien artifacts? In Indy, the alien stuff WAS the main conflict of the film. Nothing was taken away by showing alien stuff. The alien stuff was the entire focus of the movie (with the side-story of Indy's personal life).

In Iron Man, simply referencing the materials used to create the rings as extraterrestrial is enough. Not only is this a sci-fi movie, it's a superhero movie. Now that doesn't give producers and writers a blank check to do whatever they want.

But a simple implication that aliens exist is not hard for people to accept AT ALL. Especially when people in the general audience already know Iron Man and the Silver Surfer belong to the same company. Sure, FOX owns the rights to Surfer right now, but most people in the audience don't understand that. Most non-comic fans I know can't wait for Wolverine or the X-Men to meet Iron Man.

So to the general audience in a sci-fi movie, the mere SUGGESTION of alien technology being found on Earth is no big stretch at all. Especially if you don't focus on it being "alien". Just something found in old wreckage that a man like Mandarin would recognize as being beyond current human capability. But more specifically to an audience in a Marvel superhero film, the idea of aliens isn't just acceptable... it's readily acceptible.

Still, like I said earlier, I'd play things safe and not hammer the alien stuff. Just introduce it as a way for Mandarin to gain his technological advantage in weaponry. He'd still be the one to use the raw parts of the wreckage to construct the rings, and from that point on, the rings would just be seen as great inventions of the Mandarin.

There wouldn't be an "alien/human" conflict. The core conflict would revolve around the clash of cultures and philosophies that Mandarin and Stark adhere to. Stark is still an industrialist, but now he believes in making the world better through good old American ingenuity. He'll invent better tech to prevent corrupt people from using to tech/weapons to harm others. Mandarin would be the guy who wants to put Asia in America's position: dominant world superpower. And he'll abuse technology to get his way no matter what.

The fact that he can fight Iron Man due to his weapons is just a cool extra... that their conflict in beliefs can be expressed in a physical battle.

I'd say finding extraterrestrial wreckage that can be used to create new weaponry is easier to swallow for the audience than magic and mysticism.

Magic in Iron Man = alien stuff in Indiana Jones. The same way most people were like, "Alien tech in Indy? YUCK!" they'd say, "Magical stuff in Iron Man? DUMB!"

The only other option is: Mandarin creates the rings from Earth materials and his own genius. Now he's suddenly 10 times smarter than Stark, who is completely incapable of crafting handheld weapons that can do stuff like freeze objects, affect gravity, control wind, etc.

I think if you combo "Mandarin is a genius" with "and he found some advanced technology", people would go, "Ohhhh, so that's how he has an advantage over Stark!"

Now... can you honestly tell me that you needed every single one of those paragraphs to state your point?

You seem to have an black-and-white view when it comes to what is Sci-Fi and what is not. I find that interesting for something as flexible as 'genre' but you believe in it so strongly that there's little point in arguing it. You even seem incapable of understanding or characterizing my position, as it is based on shades of grey.

Which leads to our different perception of the audience. You seem to feel all Sci-Fi audiences are equal. That the crowd going to Star Wars is the same going to The Core. I think that's just silly.

Here is the core of our disagreement:
But more specifically to an audience in a Marvel superhero film, the idea of aliens isn't just acceptable... it's readily acceptible.

To that I say: prove it. You seem to believe in this statement inherently and I don't believe that you have a reason to.

As for the essence of the conflict... if the rings, themselves are premade for Mandarin, then it's Alien Tech vs Human Tech that we're seeing, even if the move explores the themes we all agree on. That's bad storytelling. If its Mandarin vs Tony then Mandarin should have an intimate hand in his weaponry.

We agree that aliens should be handled vaguely, but I don't believe your solution is vague enough.

Here's the funniest part of your post:

The fact that he can fight Iron Man due to his weapons is just a cool extra... that their conflict in beliefs can be expressed in a physical battle.

Yes, the final fight scene, that's just a cool extra. :whatever: The fact that you don't see how the weaponry should be an extension and product of their beliefs for this fight... well... that's just :csad:

[The Question]

I wouldn't have The Mandarin be a businessman. That just makes the parallels between him and Tony kind of contrived. Simply have him be the founder and leader of The Ten Rings, who keeps to the shadows as he works his way towards retaking Asia from them damn Commies and putting in their place a new empire. If you want to have a parallel with Tony, make him what he is: An aristocrat who's lost his wealth and social standing and is thus fairly reclusive.

[GL1]

Without a "real-world occupation," Mandarin loses relatability, and even becomes surreal, making the whole mystical angle feel kind of contrived.

I wouldn't go so far as to give him a multi-national corporation, but on some level, he's got to be dealing with the economy and manufacturing, and he's gotta have some income from somewhere. Perhaps, like Tony, his father was a businessman, and he's spent his life in pursuit of Chinese History or some such...

[The Question]

Without a "real-world occupation," Mandarin loses relatability, and even becomes surreal, making the whole mystical angle feel kind of contrived.

I wouldn't go so far as to give him a multi-national corporation, but on some level, he's got to be dealing with the economy and manufacturing, and he's gotta have some income from somewhere. Perhaps, like Tony, his father was a businessman, and he's spent his life in pursuit of Chinese History or some such...

He's a warlord and the leader of a terrorist organization. Giving him a "real world occupation" seems more contrived to me. Make him what he is: The son of a wealthy aristocratic family from China who lost almost everything after the cultural revolution, and while they made back enough of their fortune to survive, The Mandarin was still very much cheated of his birthright.

[GL1]

Yeah, family history stays intact, that all sounds great.

Warlord sounds good, but what war? What terrorist organization? How can having a real world occupation sound contrived whenever everyone on the entire planet has one?

...well... except for unemployed people.

[The Question]

Yeah, family history stays intact, that all sounds great.

Warlord sounds good, but what war? What terrorist organization? How can having a real world occupation sound contrived whenever everyone on the entire planet has one?

...well... except for unemployed people.

A warlord doesn't need to be actively fighting in a war. He or she simply needs to be someone who has military control over a subnational area due to forces loyal to him or her and not the central government. And the organization, we've already got: The Ten Rings.

However, now that I think about it, having the bio-technologies company "Prometheus" from The Mandarin's latest appearance in the comics be how he funds his operations in the film would make some practical sense. But I still don't think he should be this famous inventor and businessman who is secretly the leader of this militia group. The company should just be a front.

[imnotbatman]

"Margarin"?

:hehe::hehe::hehe:

LOL, oops!

[GL1]

A warlord doesn't need to be actively fighting in a war. He or she simply needs to be someone who has military control over a subnational area due to forces loyal to him or her and not the central government. And the organization, we've already got: The Ten Rings.

However, now that I think about it, having the bio-technologies company "Prometheus" from The Mandarin's latest appearance in the comics be how he funds his operations in the film would make some practical sense. But I still don't think he should be this famous inventor and businessman who is secretly the leader of this militia group. The company should just be a front.

Hmmm... okay. I can see the warlord, it's just that a multi-national terrorist organization is, as far as I understand, rediculously fictional, like those multi-ethnic gangs you see on TV, but maybe...

I had this image of Mandarin in a suit for just one scene, but I certainly didn't see him as the inventor-businessman type, so I guess, yeah, I'm thinking its a front too. Nor should he be all that famous... he's been digging around for rings for years, imho.

[The Question]

Hmmm... okay. I can see the warlord, it's just that a multi-national terrorist organization is, as far as I understand, rediculously fictional, like those multi-ethnic gangs you see on TV, but maybe...

The thing is, that was already in the first film. Can't just ignore it now. Plus, all an organization like that needs to unite it is a cause. Hell, from what I can tell, many of the members of The Ten Rings were from countries that got the crap beat out of them by the Communists. Anti-communism is probably The Mandarin's sales pitch.

[GL1]

...

I could actually buy that. I don't recall the movie actually defining what the 'Ten Rings' was, though.

[RockSP]

I don't recall the movie actually defining what the 'Ten Rings' was, though.

Yeah it did. The Ten Rings was the terrorist group who kidnapped Stark. Yensen told him it was made up of people from various countries.

[Anubis Raptor]

The ideas in this thread are awesome.
______________________
Man Of Mass Destruction

[Anubis Raptor]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/dd/Mandrin1.jpg/250px-Mandrin1.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mandrin1.jpg)


-Mass D.

[Rich Santoro]

Not so sure about the Magic angle... even with a "reasonable" explanation (that could effectively suspend disbelief) it may be too long and wordy to "inform" the audience of that phenomenon... I say go with the pure science / tech angle to develop Mandarin. The mystery comes from him as an old world cultural figure (who looks just right, played by by Ken Watanabe... check the rings).

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/warner_brothers/batman_begins/ken_watanabe/begins1.jpg

Now... the story arc comes from the fact that The Ten Rings was mentioned in the first flick. The back story could be that the Mandarin has been colluding with different separatist, rebellion, anti-government, insurrgent groups around the globe, in a master plan to topple the current global power structure (hence the relationship with the Middle Eastern terrorists... but, wait, there are others too... including a secretive Neo-Nazi organization with a disfigured leader sporting a red face... just a mention). Now, Mandarin has been coordinating with these groups to procur arms and technology (the terrorists established the relationship with Obadia Stane by way of the Mandarins machinations)... This could also lead to a tie-in with Hammer as another arms dealer relationship, and to Crimson Dynamo, Ultimo, etc.. There are a lot of ways to create some linkages to broaden the story for more sequels and for cross-overs into Cap, Thor, Avengers... so the Mandarin is a very compelling character.

The rings can be introduced as having been discovered by Chinese Geologists after an Earthquake (originally as individual stones), and the Mandarin got hold of them when he was employed by the Chinese Government in R&D. He is still jaded over the Communist revolution that ended his families status within the "noble" class... and longs to over throw the Communist regime. Now he has evolved into a full-on megalomaniac. The stones can be established as extraterrestrial in origin, but leave it at that (so that we don't get too hokey... no alien ship or tech... he is just a tech genius on his own, along with all the tech he has been acquiring through arms deals, etc). He experiments with the stones to discover that they are composed of a high energy material that respond differently to different kinds of stimulus... He devises gauntlents with the stones embedded into rings, so that he can trigger each stone's power by exposing them to small amounts of electricity, heat, cold, magnetism, chemicals, etc... thereby triggering their effects.

Energy and matter are the same thing, just in different states, so the "high energy" state of the stones is why / how they can propigate specific effects. The gauntlet allows us to depart from the aspect of psychic control over the rings, which could seem a bit too esoteric. The Mandarin, the stones, his relationship with them and his ability to wield them could evolve in subsequent films, or even in the same film... to have the psychic element or the "magical" manipulation concept (ala the previous floating holograms commentary). This just helps the moviegoers "learn" along with the characters in the film, rather than just telling them how it works through ham-handed dailogue, or with no explanation at all...

This could be developed to create a real powerhouse character with genius, resources, minions and personal powers to face any hero and/or team.

ADDED: I also wanted to expand on how the Mandarin can be a physical foil for Ironman as well. Of course he can fire electricity, ice bolts, heat, etc... but in close quarters, he can quickly erect an electromagnatic shield to block energy blasts and physical blows... while being able to enshroud his hand in a sphere of concusive force (which can also be fired) as to deliver a potent hand strike. He can use gravity manipulation bursts from the rings, to temporarily warp the effects of gravity, thus hurling objects or allowing himself to leap or levitate upward quickly. He can even control his direction and decent... he would use kung fu type hand gestures to facilitate the direction of hurled objects or himself... Is that to Crouching Tiger'ish??? With the right CGI energy pulses (like a when heat rises from the pavement on a hot day) it could be clear how it all works.

[The Question]

I still think a small mention of The Mandarin's spiritual beliefs as they relate to his technology, simply to flesh out the character, would be nice. It would give us a better understanding of him and give the audience the ability to see what they want to see when it comes to the mystical aspect of the character.

EDIT: Which is kind of what you said in the second to last paragraph. Nevermind. :O

[ray243]

I want to ask you guys a question...how could they redevelop the mandarin to ensure that chinese fans are not offended?


I mean if the mandarin as a created as a villian who represent the american culture and history...many americans themselves will be offended.

And if you guys want the current political landscape in china to change, offending the chinese as a whole is NOT going to help.

Moreover, if you guys say the mandarin represent the chinese culture...even more people will be offended, people in hong kong, taiwan and even american chinese. There are certain religious belief that has remainded respected among the chinese community until today.


Personally what the film can do is to protray the mandarin as an warlord since the ancient times. Let's have him go against the chinese themselves, the people and the government.

Make him a person who felt that china needs to be redeveloped into what he wants, against the wish of the modern day chinese.

Make him represent a part of china that modern day chinese do NOT want to go back to. Make him the representation of the unwanted past.

This way, it is possible to highlight certain things that is unique in regards to the chinese culture, but ensure that such a figure CAN be hated by the modern day chinese population as well.


BTW, I'm of chinese descent as well...hence I hope to offer some insight on how the average movie goer will think of the villian...

[The Question]

Well, the sole purpose of the villain isn't to be hated. Simply to serve as a foil for the protagonist. I'm not saying that The Mandarin should be a sad little puppy who's really a nice guy deep down, but setting out simply to make your villain hated just makes a one dimensional villain. Just make The Mandarin in the film what The Mandarin is in the comics. A highly intelligent man who commands a small army of followers and wishes to overthrow the Communist government of China. People get so worries about The Mandarin working in a film, and he works just fine. As long as you shy away from his dumber costumes, he's a perfectly viable character for a film. The mystic thing isn't a problem, because the fact of the matter is that people with those kinds of religious beliefs do exist in the real world, and The Mandarin's always been something of a techno-pagan, incorporating science and technology into his belief system in a way that would make him perfectly reasonable for a sci-fi film. He believes that the differences between science and magic aren't as sharply defined as everyone thinks they are. That works just fine. And his religious beliefs aren't even a massive part of the character. And the only way he would be legitimately offensive to the Chinese is if he were a villain simply because he was Chinese. Which he isn't. He's a villain because he opposes the concept of Communism, and the corruption and decadence of the modern world in general, very strongly, and wishes to retake the lands he sees as having fallen into such states by force.

[namenogimmicks]

Will Modok show in this movie?
It is absolutely hard to make his appearance.
A flying big head man?

[Mr. Todd]

IMO, if Raza's alive he should be The Mandarin. Also, couldn't one of the rings paralize people in the comics? I think the second movie should explain that the thing Obidiah used to freeze people was made from parts of one of the rings. That would give The Ten Rings group a lead on where the rings are, and one of them (specifically Raza, if he didn't get shot) would use the rings and become the film's main villian. I also really don't think they should "bring the spirit of The Mandarin back from the dead" or anything like that. Just have someone find and use mysterious and ancient rings to rule the world, or whatever.

[Spider-Fan]

The paralyzer Stane used was a weapon developed by Stark Industries that the military had no use for. Stane says this when he uses it on Stark.

[DoctorJones]

Now... the story arc comes from the fact that The Ten Rings was mentioned in the first flick. The back story could be that the Mandarin has been colluding with different separatist, rebellion, anti-government, insurrgent groups around the globe, in a master plan to topple the current global power structure (hence the relationship with the Middle Eastern terrorists... but, wait, there are others too... including a secretive Neo-Nazi organization with a disfigured leader sporting a red face... just a mention). Now, Mandarin has been coordinating with these groups to procur arms and technology (the terrorists established the relationship with Obadia Stane by way of the Mandarins machinations)... This could also lead to a tie-in with Hammer as another arms dealer relationship, and to Crimson Dynamo, Ultimo, etc.. There are a lot of ways to create some linkages to broaden the story for more sequels and for cross-overs into Cap, Thor, Avengers... so the Mandarin is a very compelling character.


With Dr. Doom in 20th Century Fox's slammer, I concur Marvel Studios should make Mandarin the big bad of its universe.

Anyone seen the trailer for the new cartoon? I like the idea of giving him armor with a Chinese aesthetic.

[NUFFSAID2004]

Well, I suppose the producers of the film could simply have Mandarin resemble some sort of cloud. Just like they did for Galactus in "Rise Of The Silver Surfer". Or have him cause a triangle love affair with Pepper ala Doom or Harry Osborn. Or maybe, just maybe, have Mandarin confess to killing Tony's uncle...err...father and make him a good guy. "UGH"! I don't know. I don't want to appear negative. I only hope they at least use the comic Mandarin as inspiration instead of desperation.

[NUFFSAID2004]

The paralyzer Stane used was a weapon developed by Stark Industries that the military had no use for. Stane says this when he uses it on Stark.
"Spider-Fan". Not to get off the beaten track, but I have a question for you. Of all the motion attachments you could choose to have under your username, why choose this one? The one where Spidey is helplessly unmasked, being handled by the NY rabble. This is the scene which made me cringe in disbelief. Truly, one of the great low points in this, or any other superhero film. "UGH".

[Rich Santoro]

Was that as low as having Ben Stiller perform his own stunts, or that awful "flirting" playground fight scene between him and Garner???

Was it as low as the stretchy dance that Reed Richards did in FF2???

Was it as low as the entire running time of The Hulk???

Was it as low as John Pinette as Frank Castle's portly yet jolly sap of a neighbor???

Was it as low as Nick Cage's entire performance in Ghost Rider???

If it made you cringe, whatever... but your sense of low points needs calibration.

[ThatOneGuy]

Was that as low as having Ben Stiller perform his own stunts, or that awful "flirting" playground fight scene between him and Garner???

Was it as low as the stretchy dance that Reed Richards did in FF2???

Was it as low as the entire running time of The Hulk???

Was it as low as John Pinette as Frank Castle's portly yet jolly sap of a neighbor???

Was it as low as Nick Cage's entire performance in Ghost Rider???

If it made you cringe, whatever... but your sense of low points needs calibration.
I prefer my Ben Stillers to do their own stunts.

[Rich Santoro]

Doh... brain freeze... make that Affleck.

I would have liked DD better if it were Stiller. Then I could've enjoy it as comedy, rather than just being pathetic.

[Spider-Fan]

"Spider-Fan". Not to get off the beaten track, but I have a question for you. Of all the motion attachments you could choose to have under your username, why choose this one? The one where Spidey is helplessly unmasked, being handled by the NY rabble. This is the scene which made me cringe in disbelief. Truly, one of the great low points in this, or any other superhero film. "UGH".

Because I think it is a great shot, scene, movie, etc. Among the best scenes in comic movies period.

It's cool that you disagree though.

[Beanjuice]

so basically you want mandarin to be iron monger 2?

[Spider-Fan]

Making Mandarin an armored villain would be a mistake. We have been down that road and he is one of IM's only villains that is movie material without being armored (I only think him and MODOK are). He needs to retain the power of the rings. Make the rings some kind of high tech weapon. It doesn't have to be mysticism like some think, but I think the rings are essential.

[NUFFSAID2004]

Because I think it is a great shot, scene, movie, etc. Among the best scenes in comic movies period.

It's cool that you disagree though.
Fair enough. Thanks.

[The Question]

Making Mandarin an armored villain would be a mistake. We have been down that road and he is one of IM's only villains that is movie material without being armored (I only think him and MODOK are). He needs to retain the power of the rings. Make the rings some kind of high tech weapon. It doesn't have to be mysticism like some think, but I think the rings are essential.

What I don't understand is why some people are of the believe that The Mandarin's rings are akin to high fantasy and he's some kind of dark sorcerer. His rings are based on technology, that's always been the case. It's his philosophy and other skills not directly related to the origins of the rings that are mystical. He's the type who believes that science has just as much mystical significance and some ancient ritual, and at the same time, that things like Chi and and spirits and whatnot are scientifically quantifiable phenomena. That is his philosophy, and there are plenty of people in this world who share that philosophy. I know a few. It's not hard to pull off. People are just looking for a reason to make it harder than it is.

[Rich Santoro]

^ agreed...

[Spider-Fan]

I think cause deep down, all us fanboys want something to complain about :o

[GL1]

I know I do... right now I'm complaining about introducing Mandarin without introducing aliens... not a real big deal, but I seem to be making quite a biggun out of it.

I would like to see Mandarin draw hologram defenses on the fly. Tony launches a beam attack, Mandarin draws a symbol that dissipates the beam. Tony launches a missile? Mandarin draws something that throws off its navigation system, or just magnetizes it another direction. No armor needed, especially if he's any kind of martial artist.

As for the ring's capabilities... as long as its explainable by tech he could conceivably modify, I think I'll be alright. Not sure we should go into ten different functions of the rings either... perhaps they are all components of the same functionality.

[Rich Santoro]

Believe it or not... to me Aliens are more of a sticking point with suspension of disbelief than a teenager being genetically altered by a genetically enhanced spider bite, or a whole population of humans born with advanced DNA granting them miraculous powers, or a guy who gets irradiated with Gamma and turns into a hulking monster.

I am kind of making fun of myself here, but Alien technology seems like a cop out. It is too easy, too cliche, too convenient. There is some kind of elaborate premise behind the Hulk or Spiderman that puts it within the realm of possiblity and feasibility, but just beyond our current understanding of how things work. Alien or extraterestrial origins for the rings can be implied... but too many foreign elements (like Alien craft, mysticism) may be too much of a departure from the basis of Iron Man. We are not personally invested in Alien technology, but we can be in real modern science which is taken a bit further (this was always the beauty of Star Trek - basing the futurisitc tech on real scientific principles, but pushing the theory to new heights accomplishing amazing things (that seem within our reach).

I would rather see the rings as objects that the Mandarin has learned to manipulate via his own technology and tactics. So IM fires a turbo-blast and Mandarin does a fancy blocking gesture, manifesting an energy field to deflect it (out of one of the rings)... he then follows up with a reverse punch that sends a concussive force at IM.

So he has some custom made gauntlets that he developed, to allow him to trigger the rings' powers through a combination of external stimulus (like little electical charges) and through gestures.

[Raiden]

I think Mandarin should be like a genius inventor, like Stark, and the rings were products of his intelligence. And they can square off using their own inventions (Mandarin's rings vs Stark's armor) to see whose technology is better. However, I think Mandarin should be in the background at first, and have an armored villain like Crimson Dynamo fighting with IM first, then toward the end Mandarin reveals himself and battles IM.

[The Question]

I know I do... right now I'm complaining about introducing Mandarin without introducing aliens... not a real big deal, but I seem to be making quite a biggun out of it.

I would like to see Mandarin draw hologram defenses on the fly. Tony launches a beam attack, Mandarin draws a symbol that dissipates the beam. Tony launches a missile? Mandarin draws something that throws off its navigation system, or just magnetizes it another direction. No armor needed, especially if he's any kind of martial artist.

As for the ring's capabilities... as long as its explainable by tech he could conceivably modify, I think I'll be alright. Not sure we should go into ten different functions of the rings either... perhaps they are all components of the same functionality.

I think that each ring should have a separate function. I was actually thinking at one point that each ring's function could tie into an aspect of the four Chinese elements (Earth, Fire, Water, Wood, and Metal) as each element has dual aspects to them in Chinese philosophy. But I have yet to put a massive amount of thought into that idea.

Also, I like the hologram idea. It kind of reminds me of two things I read once, one being about holograms containing information, and the other about an artificial model that could theoretically tap into the information of the universe. The second I don't remember that well, but regardless, something of a similar concept could be the basis for The Mandarin's technology. The rings all tap into an aspect of the universe's information and manipulate it, maybe in accordance with the five Chinese elements if that idea is used.

[TheVileOne]

I think the main concern is making it so the Mandarin is not a racially insensitive character :) .

[The Question]

I think the main concern is making it so the Mandarin is not a racially insensitive character :) .

I think the most racially insensitive aspect of the character has always been his costumes. In terms of personality, he's a highly intelligent and spiritual Chinese aristocrat who has a great deal of respect for the culture and ways of the China of yesteryear and carries on that China's views of government, military, and sociology. He also hates Communists. There's nothing inherently insensitive about that. He's just a man who hearkens back top the old days before Communism and wishes to see them return, preferably with the Communist leader's heads on pikes. Of course, he's also a ruthless warlord, but then if he wasn't he wouldn't be the villain.

[TheVileOne]

In other words he hates communism because he likes fascism better :D .

[terry78]

Honestly, all the **** we've seen in current Asia now with the dictator types, the big brother-esque things they do, just mold him after that.

[TheVileOne]

Is that racially sensitive though?

That could hurt the film in Asia, which is a big market :D .

[Raiden]

Is that racially sensitive though?

That could hurt the film in Asia, which is a big market :D .

They should just make him into an evil counterpart of Stark, who owns a corporation and invents amazing technology, but protected his identity by referring to himself as The Mandarin (or maybe other people came up with the name instead). Don't make him a commentary on the Chinese government, if they want to make money in China.

[The Question]

Honestly, all the **** we've seen in current Asia now with the dictator types, the big brother-esque things they do, just mold him after that.

Thing is, though, he doesn't have a signifigant power base yet. He's still trying to start the revolution, from the look of the Ten Rings organization.

They should just make him into an evil counterpart of Stark, who owns a corporation and invents amazing technology, but protected his identity by referring to himself as The Mandarin (or maybe other people came up with the name instead). Don't make him a commentary on the Chinese government, if they want to make money in China.

I really think that would be a mistake. The Mandarin isn't corporate. He's aristocratic. While he would use corporations to achieve his gaols, it shouldn't be his origin. Also, I don' think the Chinese government would take much offense to the villain of the story being someone who wants to overthrow the Chinese government.

[Raiden]

I really think that would be a mistake. The Mandarin isn't corporate. He's aristocratic. While he would use corporations to achieve his gaols, it shouldn't be his origin. Also, I don' think the Chinese government would take much offense to the villain of the story being someone who wants to overthrow the Chinese government.

I just think that if the Mandarin is like an evil twin of Stark, it'd made for a better contrast between the two, and their conflicting goals that ultimately put them on a path against each other. Iron Man fighting an aristocrat sounds kind of weird to me, but if IM deals with someone who is just as smart as he is, who also invented the technology he uses against IM it'd create the kind of drama interesting to see on the big screen.

[The Question]

I just think that if the Mandarin is like an evil twin of Stark, it'd made for a better contrast between the two, and their conflicting goals that ultimately put them on a path against each other. Iron Man fighting an aristocrat sounds kind of weird to me, but if IM deals with someone who is just as smart as he is, who also invented the technology he uses against IM it'd create the kind of drama interesting to see on the big screen.

I think, however, that that is an overly simple and easy way to creat a contrast between the two. What makes contrasts between adversaries all the more interesting is when they're more subtle, more psychological. Look at Batman and The Joker, for example. The two are as different as night and day. Nothing in common to the casual reader. But on a very subtle, psychological level, they have enough in common that it makes their personal war against each other all the more interesting. They're both men who, through tragedy, reinvented themselves as symbolic beings to channel their grief. With Batman, he created the symbol of the bat to inspire the people of Gotham city, as well as serve as a (relatively) healthy outlet for his anger and desire to wreak vengeance upon the criminal element of Gotham. With The Joker, he created this persona of the ultimate trickster/performer, and completely closed himself off from reality to hide from the pain of living in the world. Now he does whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and makes a complete spectacle out of it, because to him nothing is really real, and he's just a performer on a stage, playing the role of the comedic trickster/villain with Batman as his straight man. In The Joker, Batman sees just how far he can fall into the abyss if he loses sight of the value of things like order and justice, and in Batman, The Joker sees, through the murkiness of his psychosis, a sense of order than his chaotic mind cannot achieve, and a belief in justice that he has completely abandoned, and thus becomes obsessed with this man who was like him, but still became his opposite number.

With Iron Man and The Mandarin, you have two men, both highly intelligent, who came from money and were largely insulated from the world. Then, they lost everything, and saw the world for the dirty place that it is and decided to do something about it. Tony Stark shifted the focus of his company to help the world instead of hurt it and donned the Iron Man armor to clean up his mistakes and the mistakes of others. The Mandarin formed a network of guerrilla fighters to overthrow the Chinese government, bring back the old ways that have been forgotten by the new, corrupt regime, and recreate the greatest empire in human history. That's where the two are similar.

Also, look at your last sentence. The Mandarin doesn't have to be a corporate tycoon to be as intelligent as Tony and invent his tech. He just needs to be smart.

[Rich Santoro]

double...

[Rich Santoro]

I am with the Question on this... What is important for any character is their motivation (their origin and powers are as well... but the motivation is what writes the stories). Mandarin is more complex than just being Stark's mirror image. He has a past, he has emotions, he has a world view. He is a very compelling character, as he combines a backstory that carries profound historic and social commentary, with some mystery in how his powers are derived from the bizarre stones... along with the process of learning to use them (which delves into the human psyche and the nature of the universe... in terms of the power that the stones draw upon)... and there is some romanticism with the character in looking upon his old world cultural views, and full-on megalomania for his current ambitions.

I like the idea of him working with the terrorists in IM, as well as, the potential of other underground organizations like HYDRA, AIM, Zemo, Red Skull, Justin Hammer, and more conventional separatist, anti-government, insurgent groups around the globe...

[The Question]

One question that's been on my mind is that of The Mandarin's look. Fact is, he has a very bad history when it comes to his attire, often overly extravagant or just downright bizarre. Case in point:

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk318/HexagonSnood/mandarin002.jpg

I think his look should be very classy and old fashioned, but at the same time relaxed and subdued.

[terry78]

The recent comics, he's just dressed in a typical suit. Though when he starts to get a little nuts he goes into the robe garb.

[GL1]

Modern suit please. Aristracrat, yea, yeah... give that man modern day clothes. He pulls out the robe at the end.

I think that each ring should have a separate function. I was actually thinking at one point that each ring's function could tie into an aspect of the four Chinese elements (Earth, Fire, Water, Wood, and Metal) as each element has dual aspects to them in Chinese philosophy. But I have yet to put a massive amount of thought into that idea.

Also, I like the hologram idea. It kind of reminds me of two things I read once, one being about holograms containing information, and the other about an artificial model that could theoretically tap into the information of the universe. The second I don't remember that well, but regardless, something of a similar concept could be the basis for The Mandarin's technology. The rings all tap into an aspect of the universe's information and manipulate it, maybe in accordance with the five Chinese elements if that idea is used.


Hm. Maybe. Your conception of the character is clearly bigger than mine. And while I am SO skeptical of 'cosmic' Mandarin, I think if the theory were... uh... grounded enough and sold well that it could really work. The one concern I have is that it actually, tapping into universe's information and manipulating it... well... that's magic, and instead of inviting the audience to blur the line between science and magic it forces the audience to.

I would still opt for suped up versions of current technology with a holographic control scheme, similar to that Tony used in his lab when testing out his arm design. That's the part that's easily acceptable.

Pushing the envelope, imho, would involve the beginnings of his tapping into the universe, or, perhaps, building up to the kind of reality-warping stuff that tapping into the foundations of the universe could entail. If I were to build on your idea, I would have his manipulation of the four fundamental forces (and a fifth 'mystery' force) have effects mimicing the five chinese elements.

That could by a 'sciency' way of harkening back to his element-happy days.

[The Question]

Modern suit please. Aristracrat, yea, yeah... give that man modern day clothes. He pulls out the robe at the end.




Hm. Maybe. Your conception of the character is clearly bigger than mine. And while I am SO skeptical of 'cosmic' Mandarin, I think if the theory were... uh... grounded enough and sold well that it could really work. The one concern I have is that it actually, tapping into universe's information and manipulating it... well... that's magic, and instead of inviting the audience to blur the line between science and magic it forces the audience to.

I would still opt for suped up versions of current technology with a holographic control scheme, similar to that Tony used in his lab when testing out his arm design. That's the part that's easily acceptable.

Pushing the envelope, imho, would involve the beginnings of his tapping into the universe, or, perhaps, building up to the kind of reality-warping stuff that tapping into the foundations of the universe could entail. If I were to build on your idea, I would have his manipulation of the four fundamental forces (and a fifth 'mystery' force) have effects mimicing the five chinese elements.

That could by a 'sciency' way of harkening back to his element-happy days.

It is magic, but at the same time it's quantum physics (albeit, I will admit, somewhat ******** sci-fi quantum physics). It's where the two meet, which is kind of what the character is about. I do think that simply having him use holograms to control larger machines would be something of a cop out. His rings have a lot of potential to be explored interestingly as they are.

As for the outfit, no modern day business suit. That would kind of go against the whole "bring back the old ways" aspect of the character. I know he wore a suit in his most recent appearance, but the movie will be him early in his career.

[Rich Santoro]

Agreed... he is an unwilling participant in the communist era of China's history. His discovery of the rings, and learning to use them, play into his ambitions of changing the face of his nation BACK to the feudal days of imperial China. His entire psyche would be wrapped in that objective and vision. There is no reason to think that he wouldn't adorn himself in attire complimentary to that vision. It doesn't have to be David Lopan, but it should be something more symbolic than a suit.

Again, about his rings... they are essentially solid energy (energy and matter are the same thing, just in different states). These rings have been constructed... somehow... and are catalysts to tap into and manipulate energy (like heat, light, electricity, magnetism, gravity, dark force, etc...). There are definitely myserious, mystical, esoteric principles at work... The "magic" of it, is like what Lex Luther said, in Superman Returns, of any advanced alien technology... it would look like magic to less advanced people... The rings are extraterrestrial, and the Mandarin (with his genius and obsession) has learned to use the rings... It looks like magic, but it is really just advanced technology.

[The Question]

And I still maintain that The Mandarin's philosophy (and to a certain degree, mine own) is that the difference between advanced technology and magic is all a matter of point of view. Science, at it's core, embraces objectivity. The ability to look at something from the outside and judge and measure it without bias. Mysticism, at it's core, embraces subjectivity. A mystic embraces the idea that the very act of observing something and having thoughts about it effects it, and thus the scientist or sorcerer or whatever is just as much a part of what he is observing as the more obviously related aspects of it. The Mandarin should embrace both objectivity and subjectivity, seeing them as two very effective ways of think that, when used in balance, allows one to reach a certain level of intellectual enlightenment that would be lost by sticking to just one or the other. He's someone who believes that things like modern technology have spiritual significance, and that concepts such as the soul and destiny can be explained scientifically. One could describe his philosophy as being a Techno Pagan (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=techno+pagan), although I doubt he would refer to himself as such as it would still be kind of pigeon holing him. I think, at the end of the day, he would simply describe himself as an intellectual. Someone with both a great deal of scientific training and skill, as well as a spiritual side, which he allows to inter mingle.

[Rich Santoro]

I like it... I'll take two...

[terry78]

It would make sense for his cronies under the Ten Rings to all think he's just giving them what they want via technology and power, only to find out too late that he has much more devious plans for everyone, including his own underlings.

[GL1]

It is magic, but at the same time it's quantum physics (albeit, I will admit, somewhat ******** sci-fi quantum physics). It's where the two meet, which is kind of what the character is about. I do think that simply having him use holograms to control larger machines would be something of a cop out. His rings have a lot of potential to be explored interestingly as they are.

As for the outfit, no modern day business suit. That would kind of go against the whole "bring back the old ways" aspect of the character. I know he wore a suit in his most recent appearance, but the movie will be him early in his career.

That would be a cop out, you're right. Somewhat ???? sci-fi Quantum physics is not an even compromise though. To really balance, to walk the line, between science and technology, you've got to bring magic to real world science, not put scientific explanation on magic. His rings, as is, are a laundry list of elements, thoroughly unbalanced, without order, lending themselves to no narrative that I can conceive of. Not only does their functionality need to be refined in order to bear exploring, but I'm not sure an Iron Man movie should spend and extraordinary amount of time exploring the power source and functionality of its villain.

Bringing the rings down to a conceivable level of science with, say, one excpetion for dramatic and narrative reasons, doesn't interfere with fully displaying this Techno Pagan mindset.

As for the modern clothing... it takes a truly eccentric person, someone typically unrelatable, to totally forsake the time period they live in. Its one thing to see that transformation, its another to meet a person who has, based on their own mindset, decided to pretend they don't live in the 21st century, while still interacting with people who do. Suits aren't communist, I don't think.

[The Question]

Suits aren't communist. But they are very western. And I think one thing that bothers The Mandarin is how Eastern ideals have been abandoned for Western ones (communism, if you recall, was created by a German). I'm not saying he should wear overly extravagant, flowing robes. Just that his clothing style should reflect the culture he respects, not the cultures he's railing against. I've seen fairly plain looking suits that still have a distinctively Chinese cut and style. In fact, the jackets of those suits are referred to as "Mandarin Collars."

As for the rings, you are right, there shouldn't be ten minutes of Stark and The Mandarin talking about quantum physics and collective unconsciousness and religion just to explain how the damn rings work. But, that does not mean that these are things the film makers shouldn't keep in mind when crafting the character. A sign of true dedication to storytelling is how much thought you put into the things that are never explicitly stated. I'm not asking for a Warren Ellis comic with 20 pages of talking heads blabbing about theoretical physics and philosophy. But I do want to see the king of thought that Ellis puts into his sci-fi and fantasy stories.

You are right, though, that their functions are kind of all over the place. They really don't have any linking theme, besides the fact that they do cool **** and are rings. However, I think that a linking theme could be found or added without fundamentally changing what they do through some thorough research.

[Rich Santoro]

The guy is operating in the background currently, so eccentric / stylized clothes would fit well I'd say... (I agree with the concerns over being too eccentic)... Perhaps something like this (still unique and stylish, but not cliche or campy):

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/mk/images/thumb/7/7e/Shangtsung23.png/150px-Shangtsung23.png

http://static.flickr.com/83/227436668_f43c321f52.jpg

On the rings:

It is true, that they are fairly random in their power, and I think that they could use some established cohesion for the sake of the film. An initial encounter could allow Stark to later draw data from sensors on his suit, and analyze what the hell was going on. He finds that the rings each have a unique energy signature that propigates an effect along the scale of different energy types... Use some basis in actual physics (even if the film doesn't explain too much...) rooting the powers in real science... Leave some mystery in there pertaining to how they are triggered and manipulated for specific effects... Leave Stark in the dark as much as us. But make it seem accessible...

[Nepenthes]

I am enjoying this discussion. Though my original view still stands.

[Rich Santoro]

Likewise... it is very stirring and thought provoking. And once everyone realizes that I am right, all will be well :woot:

[Artistsean]

Don't know what anyone else has said, but maybe Mandarin could be like the Uni Bomber.
A man who hates all technology, so he uses technology to attack it.
Iron Man would represent the ultimate weapon to him, and he could be some what of a terrorist.
Just sort of a vague idea.

[The Question]

I don't see why the character should be so fundamentally changed like that.

[Iron Avenger]

do you think they would use Fing Fang Foom?

and, if so, how would they do that?

Would they turn FFF into a giant "mecha" dragon or something????

[terry78]

I know I mentioned FFF, but now I'm thinking even Ultimo would be a little more feasible. But he should be something that comes in later in the game, when it's showcased that Mandarin is basically nuts.

[Arthas]

do you think they would use Fing Fang Foom?

and, if so, how would they do that?

Would they turn FFF into a giant "mecha" dragon or something????


nah, sense they said that thor is going to have a camio in it, then they could make this one more....Mystical

and it would be AWESOME seeing ironman fighting a huge killer dragon that has an overly long name, lol

[K.B.]

I think Mandarin could be done very well in a film and that if they took elements and ideas from the recent "Enter The Mandarin" limited series ( a good read) it'd make a great flick.

[terry78]

Mandarin can be done, the rings don't have to be mystical, but they would have to be integrated weapons that he has on his fingers....the whole point is to show how subtly psychotic Mandarin is.

[L0ngsh0t]

I agree terry

[L0ngsh0t]

for some reason I have a thought of putting Patrick Stewart through a tone of make up and costuming for this role

I realize he is British, but he is damn fine actor haha

Just a thought

[terry78]

LOL, nah, yellowface would definitely not fly.

[K.B.]

Are you kidding?

After black face in the hit tropic thunder, I think Downey should do yellow face next and play Mandarin!

[Chris B]

I've been thinking that since Favreau alluded the other day that the plan is still to make a third solo Iron Man film, and the possibility of saving the Mandarin for that, that may be a better approach to take. And it would make Stark vs. Mandarin more climatic if they don't actually face each other until then.

I'm thinking they should use Count Nefaria and Madame Masque as the villians in IM2 in a variation of the "Demon in the Bottle" storyline. But I think the Mandarin should make an actual appearance in the film in an extended cameo. Just have Chow Yun Fat or whoever is playing the character shoot a few scenes, and end the film with him lamenting about how after the failure of Stane and Nefaria to destroy Tony Stark, he may have to take matters into his own hands.

[Venomaniac]

Despite the fact that Mandrain's rings are alien, aren't they still technically technologically based?

[Iron Avenger]

I just watched the Forbidden Kingdom ( starring Jet Li and Jackie Chan ) and the main baddie in the film, the Jade Warlord, really reminded me of the Mandarin.

[JMalone61]

I'm not too big on Iron Man so I'm not an expert on the origins, but I've read a few comics and definitely seen a lot of shows so be easy on me here but..

Didn't they mention on some dialogue in the DVD commentary that the terrorist cell that kidnapped Stark was one of Mandarin's "Ten Rings".. If that's the case it's not going to be so hard.. Just make his rings of power not actual rings, but rather terrorist cells around the world all specializing in different forms of technology and warfare.. The first 30 minutes could be Iron Man fighting a group trying to attack the states only to find out that the group was only one of "the rings"..

If they did it like that, Fing Fang Foom could exist in a sort of Pirates of the Carribean way.. One of his rings in Asia keeps boasting they have a creature that could handle Iron Man, but it's always sort of a myth until you start discovering he's real.. Actually now that I wrote that out I'm not sure, but definitely the idea that his different rings are just cells of a worldwide organization hellbent on global domination...

Or you could just have MODOK and Mandarin flying around in a spaceship swearing to take Iron Man down all the time but being really stupid when they're supposed to be so smart..

[ThePoisonPuppet]

The beginning of the Iron Man had that nice little introduction to Tony Stark, so do you think it would be too repetitive to do it again for The Mandarin?

The movie opens with an interview with Zhang Tong (The Mandarin), the third richest man in China and the owner of one of the largest and most advanced defense supply companies in the world. In the interview it is explained that Zhang is quite fond of ancient Chinese history and that he is and avid collecter of artifacts. We also learn that a team of archeologists and anthropologists that he finances have just recently discovered what might be one of the greatest archeological finds in history: evidence of the lost city of Shangri La, and that this is actually their 2nd ground breaking discovery in the past few years, the first being the tomb of Genghis Khan.

As we get a more in depth view of The Mandarin, without all the media around, we learn that he is the secret leader of the terrorist group The 10 Rings, and that in addition to using the group as a means to buy/sell/steal technology from the U.S. Military they also exists for the purpose of finding lost archeological sites that might be of use to The Mandarin. However now that the Mandarin has found what he needs in Shangri La, its questionable weather they will continue.

We also learn somewhere in this time that the group is called the 10 Rings because of the 10 Rings that the Mandarin wears that he discovered in Genghis Khan's tomb. We also get an explanation of them.

Originally the 10 rings were simply just that, jewelry. But upon further inspection of the material the rings were made out of, we learn that they some how mysteriously power themselves. Much like a bunch of mini arc reactors. The Mandarin took advantage of this (Maybe even took the idea from Stark himself) and crafted high technology weapons into each ring. In addition to this The Mandarin also uses his mysterious technology (It is implied it might be alien in origin, but not out ride said) to help stay ahead with his arms dealing but always keeping the best things for himself.

As time progresses through the movie and Tony slips into alcoholism (Possibly as a result of another villain or Pepper leaving him for Happy), then the Mandarin's intentions are slowly revealed. The Mandarin was looking for Shangri La because of something he read or saw in Genghis Khan's tomb that revealed to him how to awaken the ancient dragon/alien Fing Fang Foom.

Now from there, its hard how to do Fing Fang Foom. He can literally be made an alien or a dragon or I suppose possibly an ancient mystic Bio Weapon of sorts.

Anyways, the main themes I would present with The Mandarin are basically the shady practices that business can take in places with no regulations (I would really like to see him work with Justin Hammer) and despite the fact that people might seem like philanthropists of sort, that doesn't mean they are clear in name. In addition to this, I think the Mandarin generally represents China's growing position of importance in the world today. To keeps things unracists however I think some where in the story he would have to be disowned by the Chinese People.

Personally I would make the climax of the film fighting Fing Fang Foom and have Iron Man fighting The Mandarin himself be in Iron Man III. But anyways I realize its not the most creative way to do the Mandarin, but thats how I would do it.

[fu manchu]

I just watched the Forbidden Kingdom ( starring Jet Li and Jackie Chan ) and the main baddie in the film, the Jade Warlord, really reminded me of the Mandarin.
yeah, i like him too :up:

he was in my old avatar. http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc300/fumanchu2007/291lz08.gif

[Rich Santoro]

^ He also played Seraph in Matrix 2. He is my pick for the Mandarin:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3013/2363602816_7d43d10238.jpg

His origin should be that he is trapped in a society that he hates (communist China). He is a statesman or scientist (something important in Chinese system) but he wants to return to the days of pre-communist China, in which his family was part of the noble class. He comes across the rings (just stones at the time) that were unearthed by archaelogists. He does some experiments to discover that these are "solidified energy" or some other more appealing psuedo-scientific term. He spends a great deal of time learning the stones' properties, how to trigger the release of energy, and even how to manipulate the effects (via meditation that allows him to merge his consciousness with the rings' energy fields). He fashions them into rings and is able to weild the power of the rings via fluid martial arts movements.

[ThePoisonPuppet]

^ He also played Seraph in Matrix 2. He is my pick for the Mandarin:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3013/2363602816_7d43d10238.jpg

His origin should be that he is trapped in a society that he hates (communist China). He is a statesman or scientist (something important in Chinese system) but he wants to return to the days of pre-communist China, in which his family was part of the noble class. He comes across the rings (just stones at the time) that were unearthed by archaelogists. He does some experiments to discover that these are "solidified energy" or some other more appealing psuedo-scientific term. He spends a great deal of time learning the stones' properties, how to trigger the release of energy, and even how to manipulate the effects (via meditation that allows him to merge his consciousness with the rings' energy fields). He fashions them into rings and is able to weild the power of the rings via fluid martial arts movements.

China is only really Communist in name anymore. And if he were high up in the Chinese government anyways, why would he want a return to the past. This interpretation was fine 25 years ago, but now its a little outdated.

[Jordacar]

As far as the rings being alien technology, it would be easy to suggest by pointing out that, as was said in the first film, Stark makes the most advanced weapons systems on earth, and Mandarin's rings are more advanced, therefore...

[Rich Santoro]

China is only really Communist in name anymore. And if he were high up in the Chinese government anyways, why would he want a return to the past. This interpretation was fine 25 years ago, but now its a little outdated.

I don't think that I fully agree with the first sentence there... Regardless, even if China does not follow the Soviet model, it would be easy to understand why someone fixated on the past, and the ancient traditions of Chinese lore and mysticism, would not be fond of the state based authority that has shut down faith systems, and quash proud traditions... However, if modernization of the Mandarin's motivations are called for, by all means...

[Armored Avenger]

Even though there may be an Iron Man 3 as well as The Avengers, I still think The Mandarin should be introduced Iron Man 2. Having Iron Man's greatest enemy in a film as well as his alcoholism pushes the character to his limits and creates a darkest hour for Iron Man. Then the Mandarin can return in the third film and Tony (now recovering from his alcoholism) can rise up and defeat him creating a heroic climax to the trilogy. I think The Mandarin should a constant throughout the trilogy, with his forshadowing in the first film, his introduction in the second film and his defeat in the third film. Having 2 films of forshadowing and then only one for the actual character himself to finally appear means that the screentime of Iron Man's greatest villain will be minimal compared to his build up.

[Artistsean]

Here is something they could do, don't know if its a good idea though.
The terrorist leader from the 1st Iron Man.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/seanstarrunner/faran.jpg

He is leader of the "10 Rings" and they are a group made of terrorists from around the world right?
He already showed that he is a power, and weapon, hunger man on the verge of becoming a dictator. Spouting history about how various people nearly conquered the world with the weapons they had.
I think he could become the Mandarine.

I guess it would be real easy just to make him into the Mandarin.

[Troy_Parker]

I actually thought he would work well as reality based Mandarin...rather some green dude

[Armored Avenger]

I actually thought he would work well as reality based Mandarin...rather some green dude

The Mandarin is not green. And if you are referring to his classic costume, then they can easily change it or give him a suit like his latest appearance in the comics.

[Superhero 101]

I would make Mandarin a Chinese Businessman who is intrested in Tony Starks Armor and kinda have that power of the suit in rings or something like that I wouldn't make the Rings mystical but technological

[fu manchu]

The Mandarin is not green. And if you are referring to his classic costume, then they can easily change it or give him a suit like his latest appearance in the comics.

i think he's referring to the animated version. see my avatar.

[Antonello Blueberry]

^ He also played Seraph in Matrix 2. He is my pick for the Mandarin:

His origin should be that he is trapped in a society that he hates (communist China). He is a statesman or scientist (something important in Chinese system) but he wants to return to the days of pre-communist China, in which his family was part of the noble class. He comes across the rings (just stones at the time) that were unearthed by archaelogists. He does some experiments to discover that these are "solidified energy" or some other more appealing psuedo-scientific term. He spends a great deal of time learning the stones' properties, how to trigger the release of energy, and even how to manipulate the effects (via meditation that allows him to merge his consciousness with the rings' energy fields). He fashions them into rings and is able to weild the power of the rings via fluid martial arts movements.
What instead if he understood after seeing how Chinese people are being exploited by Western industrialist like Tony Stark, who get rich while people in China (and Pakistan, Turkey, Mexico) work for them for a dollar a day, that a Communist world would be a better place where to live?
A place where people aren't forced to leave their houses because they can't pay their mortgages anymore?
And he uses his alien rings and his followers in the world to spread the idea that communism is the way of the future?

[Troy_Parker]

i think he's referring to the animated version. see my avatar.

Yeah, But I still think Raza would make a good reality based mandarin... :grin:

[The Question]

What instead if he understood after seeing how Chinese people are being exploited by Western industrialist like Tony Stark, who get rich while people in China (and Pakistan, Turkey, Mexico) work for them for a dollar a day, that a Communist world would be a better place where to live?
A place where people aren't forced to leave their houses because they can't pay their mortgages anymore?
And he uses his alien rings and his followers in the world to spread the idea that communism is the way of the future?

But that goes against one of the core aspects of the character: He is fiercely anti-communist.

[ThePoisonPuppet]

Yeah, But I still think Raza would make a good reality based mandarin... :grin:

Raza is clearly an Arab or Persian though. The name Mandarin means something related to China, specifically around Beijing (Where they are very Chinese looking, not like Western China where he might be able to pass) so that doesn't quite work.

The most neutral ground I think would be to make him a Hong Kongese businessman or old Koumintang Nationalist from Taiwan.

[Antonello Blueberry]

But that goes against one of the core aspects of the character: He is fiercely anti-communist.
Then the Mandarin is my enemy.

[BobJM]

I like the idea that Mandarin uses technology to topple technology in the world. Before Communist China, Mandarin's family was the pinnacle of wealth and power. Communism stripped that away from him and now he opposes anything representative of modernization.

So, seeing Tony Stark as a pioneer of the future and a man who is constantly running interference with the Ten Rings, Mandarin seeks control of IM's technology to use it against the world.

His rings represent his ten individual Ten Rings cells throughout the world (Middle East, China, Russia perhaps, etc. etc.) Perhaps a final showdown between him and Stark, Mandarin can acquire repulsor-esque gauntlets?

[TheVileOne]

Here's the thing guys. Ultimately Iron Man has to align with Thor and what not.

So I mean, while I get they probably want to transition everyone into this fantasy world gradually and slowly . . . it's still a fantasy world. So I mean, people are trying very hard to come up with ways to re-write the Mandarin in a realistic manner. Maybe that's not quite as necessary for a future movie.

I mean, once Iron Man starts interacting with Thor, the movies can't contradict each other.

[Rich Santoro]

^ I agree with this view. I think that there is still an opportunity to not get too specific on what the rings are, and how they work... Then, as this new Marvel Universe expands with the likes of Thor... and fantasy enters the cannon... Mandarin will fit right in. It may even be good to hold him off until after the Avengers in IM3 to introduce the Mandarin.

The mandarin and the 10 rings org. can be present in the storyline of IM2, but I would like to see some of Justin's Hammer's tech thugs, like Blacklash, Spymaster, Mach1 (rather than the Beetle) leading up to an encounter with Titanium Man. Again, 10 rings and mabe even "Mandarin" could be mentioned explicitly... but he would remain as an ominous, mysterious figure...

[Infinity9999x]

Here's the thing guys. Ultimately Iron Man has to align with Thor and what not.

So I mean, while I get they probably want to transition everyone into this fantasy world gradually and slowly . . . it's still a fantasy world. So I mean, people are trying very hard to come up with ways to re-write the Mandarin in a realistic manner. Maybe that's not quite as necessary for a future movie.

I mean, once Iron Man starts interacting with Thor, the movies can't contradict each other.

I agree. TDK has shown us how a very good realistic comic book movie can be made, but I think, after the recent TDK craze, too many people want more "realistic" superhero movies.

The "magical" aspect of comics is something that's very prevalent in the mythos, and I for one would like to see some more comic movies that explore this side of the genre more.

[StylishHokie21]

He seems like an interesting villain. I'm sure Favreau will make it work if he is in fact the villain for the sequel. :up:

[Figs]

^ I agree with this view. I think that there is still an opportunity to not get too specific on what the rings are, and how they work... Then, as this new Marvel Universe expands with the likes of Thor... and fantasy enters the cannon... Mandarin will fit right in. It may even be good to hold him off until after the Avengers in IM3 to introduce the Mandarin.

The mandarin and the 10 rings org. can be present in the storyline of IM2, but I would like to see some of Justin's Hammer's tech thugs, like Blacklash, Spymaster, Mach1 (rather than the Beetle) leading up to an encounter with Titanium Man. Again, 10 rings and mabe even "Mandarin" could be mentioned explicitly... but he would remain as an ominous, mysterious figure...

What I put in bold.

In that somewhat recent interview with Favreau(the long one) he was mentioning that this is a an idea they are thinking about using. To hint some more if not show him a little at the end of Iron Man 2 and use him in the third for the ending of a trilogy.

I think it would be great if he does this and uses Titanium Man or Crimson Dynamo for the second film.

[Rich Santoro]

^ That is sweet... thanks for the update. I do think that is the way to go. I believe that there is an opportunity to delve into some interesting social commentary with the Mandarin and his motivations, that is best served as a final act... not a prelude to the Avengers. The Mandarin's view of the world pertains not so much to power (while recognizing it is necessary... like the the Afgani 10 rings guy who mentioned how Ghengis Khan was able to build the largest empire ever, with the bow), but for the Mandarin it is about will and vision. Power is useless without its wielder... Total control is the only means to provide "harmony'... Tony then adds, but what about the wielder's ambition??? Greed??? Arogance??? Lust for dominance??? I know it... it was me once... and now it's you.

It has always comes to an end... Alexander, Attila, Napoleon, Hitler... They all ended in ruin. And now, I won't let people get hurt while you fall down that same path to destruction.

[jokerface89]

I agree. TDK has shown us how a very good realistic comic book movie can be made, but I think, after the recent TDK craze, too many people want more "realistic" superhero movies.

The "magical" aspect of comics is something that's very prevalent in the mythos, and I for one would like to see some more comic movies that explore this side of the genre more.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks that.

[Hectorminator]

What I put in bold.

In that somewhat recent interview with Favreau(the long one) he was mentioning that this is a an idea they are thinking about using. To hint some more if not show him a little at the end of Iron Man 2 and use him in the third for the ending of a trilogy.

I think it would be great if he does this and uses Titanium Man or Crimson Dynamo for the second film.

Yes.

But instead of JUST Titanium Man OR Crimson Dynamo, have Justin Hammer fund a bunch of Iron Man Tech designs that get out, so he has a personal army to protect him when he tries to take over Stark Industries. Just like in Demon in a Bottle. Then you have Tony hit rock bottom and Rhodes has to take over/help out his best friend.

Side-note: I was just thinking this the other day, how bad-ass would it be if the Ten Rings was a division of Hydra? Then SHIELD would have a reason to have a huge presence and request Stark builds them a helicarrier.

I just want to see a helicarrier.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n11/impbianco/07Helicarrier.jpg

[Rich Santoro]

^ I don't think that Ten Rings needs to be with HYDRA... There can be HYDRA, and Ten Rings (Mandarin's private army), AIM. Hammer could be dealing with all or some of these groups, as to become the new weapons provider... putting him in the middle of the action. He sees the success of Ironman (as does the whole world really) and is trying to move his R&D in that direction... coming up with a new power system (not as good as the Arc reactor, but good)... leading to fancy non-projectile energy weapons, flight suits, battle gear, etc... SHIELD is monitoring all...

Now, as has been mentioned, so much is happenning that Tony is bottoming out from the stress... He is trying to track and destroy his illegally sold weapon systems (actually shining a light on these other subversive groups named above), his business in losing global sales because he is shifting to defensive weapons systems, surveilance technology, flight control tech, power technology, etc... his private life is in the tank because he came out as Ironman and the celebrity industialist is not the focus of attention anymore... he is hounded about being Ironman... even targetted because of it. He is starting to lose it... drinking way too much, falling to pieces.

Fury sees this... He proposes to Tony that SHIELD and Stark Industries create an exclusive contract for Stark to provide new age weapons, high tech gear for SHIELD agents, and design the Hellicarrier so they can "uncouple" their global operations from terrestial constraints. This will give Stark new contracts to raise capitol for the "redirect" of his company, and SHIELD agrees to make Ironman's missions, tracking Stark's weapon systems, a new directive for SHIELD operations (this puts more agents in the field, which could lead to new recruits down the road (see Hawkeye, Black Widow, etc).

This new directive amps up the pursuit of the Mandarin as Ironman and SHIELD work their way through Ten Rings affilates (terrorists, guerillas, insurgents, etc).

[CaptainClown]

Each ring can utilize a different type of energy source manderin puts them into some gauntlets which channels that power into blasts.

[FaT_tONle]

SO I just read the complete Favreau interview... seems like they may very well hold off Mandarin for IM3... I didn't even realize the Mummy 3 featured essentially a Mandarin and Fing Fang Foom until Favrea brought it up... maybe it's best to save him. I have no doubt Mandarin will definitely have a presence in the next one... but I am not sure he will be the featured baddie.

[Hectorminator]

^ I don't think that Ten Rings needs to be with HYDRA... There can be HYDRA, and Ten Rings (Mandarin's private army), AIM. Hammer could be dealing with all or some of these groups, as to become the new weapons provider... putting him in the middle of the action...

...his business in losing global sales because he is shifting to defensive weapons systems, surveilance technology, flight control tech, power technology, etc... He is starting to lose it... drinking way too much, falling to pieces.

Fury sees this... He proposes to Tony that SHIELD and Stark Industries create an exclusive contract for Stark to provide new age weapons, high tech gear for SHIELD agents, and design the Hellicarrier so they can "uncouple" their global operations from terrestial constraints. This will give Stark new contracts to raise capitol for the "redirect" of his company, and SHIELD agrees to make Ironman's missions, tracking Stark's weapon systems, a new directive for SHIELD operations (this puts more agents in the field, which could lead to new recruits down the road (see Hawkeye, Black Widow, etc).


I like this. It would definitely be cool to see Black Widow OR Hawkeye in Iron Man II. They totally fit in that world.

And don't forget, we have to see the obvious Thor/Dr. Don Blake cameo in either an emergency room or AA meeting. Or maybe just a pub.

[Rich Santoro]

^ I must admit... the above concept is a amalgam of some of my ideas, and something that others have suggested (which I think are very good ideas). Just don't wan to take full credit (alas I did not retain the IDs of those whose ideas I borrowed from).

But getting cameos of Black Widow and Hawkeye is something that I have been mentioning for a while. I like how future concepts, plots and content are built by small pieces in each progressive film.

[Chris B]

SO I just read the complete Favreau interview... seems like they may very well hold off Mandarin for IM3... I didn't even realize the Mummy 3 featured essentially a Mandarin and Fing Fang Foom until Favrea brought it up... maybe it's best to save him. I have no doubt Mandarin will definitely have a presence in the next one... but I am not sure he will be the featured baddie.

Which leads to the question, who will be the main villain in IM2? I would say Count Nefaria, but I'm not sure if I can see Favreau going the route. Maybe Justin Hammer?

[Hectorminator]

Which leads to the question, who will be the main villain in IM2? I would say Count Nefaria, but I'm not sure if I can see Favreau going the route. Maybe Justin Hammer?

I doubt it will be Count Nefaria. That's kind of a long-shot to me.

Most likely Justin Hammer, 'cause he's the business enemy who can fund an army of lesser Iron Man villains like Crimson Dynamo, Titanium Man, etc.

[thorstone]

Favreau could treat him as a mutant or as in possession of alien technology, but I found it most interestng the way they treated the ten rings in the form of allusion as a real world organization which acts as a foil to S.H.I.E.L.D.

I am confident Favreau will not treat this character as supernatural, and judging from the recent interview on Iron Man's sequels, Thor will not be supernatural either.

[Tony Stark]

Yeah, But I still think Raza would make a good reality based mandarin... :grin:

I agree, we alreay know the character, we already know his history with stark.

What I would do, is take the "10 rings" thing being some sort of fabled myth that the group bases their name on. Now that Raza knows Stark's secret, he used technology to create 10 rings, based on the fabled ones.

[jamesjuhn]

hmmm based on my limited knowledge about the character from Wikipedia(I've just been converted to a fan by the way so pardon my ignorance),

If they are looking to connect the whole franchise with Avengers (which has fantastical characters like Thor as part of the team) saying they are all in the same universe doesn't it sort of defie purpose to ground Mandarin in realism?

I mean, I love TDK (its my favourite film this year, followed by Iron Man), and think what Chris Nolan did to base his franchise in realism was really done well and worked so far, but DC is taking completely opposite approach from Marvel(they are not connecting the solo superhero films at all seeing Nolan's franchise and the Justice League movie project is totally unrelated).
I think a lot of people (well probably not everyone) are still in TDK craze like TheVileOne said and want to see Mandarin reality based, but honestly I don't think that will go too well here(this is my personal opinion).

To me, I see Iron Man as a realism-based hero(his suit technology etc) living in a fantastical world(hence Nick Fury's "bigger universe" comment in after credits), and if they are indeed going through with Avengers, then I'd prefer they'd keep the tone consistent with the Avengers film(Don't know about you guys, but I was disappointed with FF2's Galactus compared to his form in the comics)

[marcvader]

...also the fact that Stark was in TIH and willing to help Ross with his "problem", would tell you that there may be some degree of fantasy in it as well.

[Rich Santoro]

^ but the Hulk doesn't imply "fantasy". He is science based (complex bio-chemistry and bio-physics is at work)... A tie-in with IM would not be inconsistent with Stark's tech world...

And my take on the notion of "reality" in all of this... is to make even the fantastic elements of characters like Thor, seem plausible in the universe as we know it. It can be stated, "The universe is a big place, and we are only able to observe and measure a fraction of it... There are many phenomenon that we don't fully understand - black holes, dark energy, subatomic particles down to string-theory and multiple dimensions, worm-holes, details of the big bang itself... And these are just the things we know about."

This idea lends itself to rooting even other-worldly beings, like Thor, and phenomenon like the ten rings as parts of out universe. They can be left as "beyond our current understanding." but can be drawn into "reality" in this way...

I even favor a comment from Fury to Banner (when trying to recruit him to the Avengers... perhaps in one of the openning scenes of the Avengers film), "You of all people are aware of the kinds of discoveries and technological breakthroughs that lie just over the horizon... and you of all people are aware of what some are willing to do to cross the horizon... and what they would do when they get there." I believe commentary like this can blow things wide open for the radical stuff that could occur in future Marvel films... that we all know and love from the books... new power sources, advanced sci-fi-science, time travel, alien races and worlds, intergalactic beings / entities, supernatural beings and powers, undiscovered Earthly beings (like the Atlanteans), etc...

[MichaelChen]

Raza wouldn't work at all as the Mandarin, because he never displayed the massive level of skill that is the Mandarin's hallmark. He would have been flipping around and kicking the crap out of the mark I if he were the Mandarin. Even without the rings, Mandarin is too high a level villain for the escape scene to have happened.

[American_Hobo]

well im not around this board much so i dont know much clue so help me out..
Is Mandarin confirmed as the main villain in Iron Man2?

[tamron]

Raza wouldn't work at all as the Mandarin, because he never displayed the massive level of skill that is the Mandarin's hallmark. He would have been flipping around and kicking the crap out of the mark I if he were the Mandarin. Even without the rings, Mandarin is too high a level villain for the escape scene to have happened.

Exactly. Raza as Mandarin would basically mean his "Mandarin" is dependent on the rings, because we already saw he's a chump without them.

[DoctorJones]

well im not around this board much so i dont know much clue so help me out..
Is Mandarin confirmed as the main villain in Iron Man2?

Favreau: "Mandarin is still an important figure in the Iron Man universe. We have an interesting take on him that allows us to incorporate the whole pantheon of villains. The whole 10 Rings thing in IM 1 was a good tease for it."
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/herocomplex/2008/10/live-chat-with.html

So not quite there yet. :yay:

[CaptainClown]

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x250/captain_ClownhaHa/Manderin.jpg
Here is some sketch I was doing in my spare time. I think I would have the rings utilize a specific type of energy, each of them different. His armor in a way channels the energy for their specific utility. The one draw back with the suit is he can only channel one ring at a time. (Which could lead to his demise when he utilizes all the gems at once) The suit also isn't a complete suit but more armor along the arm. I think the big goal of Mandarin is that he is not physically capable but powerful enough to stand his own. So he is going to be very vulnerable to physical attacks, but he is going to be powerful enough that its almost impossible to get in a physical attack.

I am really unsure about a helmet but if he is going to do aerial combat then he would need a mask for breathing. I would also have his armor radiate a greenish light against his face to give the look of the traditional Mandarin.

[MichaelChen]

Sorry, but that is a horrible take on the character that shows you completely don't get the character. A huge part of Mandarin's appeal is that he can jump on Iron Man and kung fu the hell out of him. Your take would turn him into a pure ranged nerd instead of the aggressive, macho, super-martial-artist he is in the comics.

Please read the most recent Mandarin/Iron Man story before coming up with ideas for how to translate him into film. Your idea deviates so far from what makes Mandarin cool that it would ruin him.

P.S., the "traditional" Mandarin is not green. That's something from the cartoon only.

[Rich Santoro]

I felt compelled to repeat one of my earlier posts...

His origin should be that he is trapped in a society that he hates (communist China). He is a statesman or scientist (something important in Chinese system) but he wants to return to the days of pre-communist China, in which his family was part of the noble class. He comes across the rings (just stones at the time) that were unearthed by archaelogists. He does some experiments to discover that these are "solidified energy" or some other more appealing psuedo-scientific term. He spends a great deal of time learning the stones' properties, how to trigger the release of energy, and even how to manipulate the effects (via meditation that allows him to merge his consciousness with the rings' energy fields). He fashions them into rings and is able to weild the power of the rings via fluid martial arts movements.


And along these lines... it would be good to see Mandarin dealing some martial arts blows to IM, but depict the scene such that we see the Mandarin encasing his hands in a shroud of energy... thereby doing damage to IM's armor with a Kinetic field, rather than calloused hands. If that armor can repell a tank shell, then no martial artist is going to do damage to it.

[WeaponXProject]

I'm cool with that.^^^^

[CaptainClown]

Sorry, but that is a horrible take on the character that shows you completely don't get the character. A huge part of Mandarin's appeal is that he can jump on Iron Man and kung fu the hell out of him. Your take would turn him into a pure ranged nerd instead of the aggressive, macho, super-martial-artist he is in the comics.

Please read the most recent Mandarin/Iron Man story before coming up with ideas for how to translate him into film. Your idea deviates so far from what makes Mandarin cool that it would ruin him.

P.S., the "traditional" Mandarin is not green. That's something from the cartoon only.
I didn't say you take out the martial arts aspect. Hell you could include it if you wanted. YOu could even fathom that he engineered his own suit. This appeals to me and maybe other people, especially if you are going to keep it grounded like what Favreau seems like he is going to be doing.

While Bruce Lee might be a martial arts bad ass I don't see him cracking open Iron Man like a lobster, he would need some enhancement buddddy.

[Iron_Stark]

I didn't say you take out the martial arts aspect. Hell you could include it if you wanted. YOu could even fathom that he engineered his own suit. This appeals to me and maybe other people, especially if you are going to keep it grounded like what Favreau seems like he is going to be doing.

While Bruce Lee might be a martial arts bad ass I don't see him cracking open Iron Man like a lobster, he would need some enhancement buddddy.

Seeing how Favs is referencing a lot of late 80s early 90s, I wouldn't be surprised if he did give Mandarin a suit similar to the one Michelinie and Layton gave him.

http://i38.tinypic.com/29lhjyx.jpg

[COMPO]

he looks like shredder but blue :S

[MichaelChen]

I didn't say you take out the martial arts aspect. Hell you could include it if you wanted. YOu could even fathom that he engineered his own suit. This appeals to me and maybe other people, especially if you are going to keep it grounded like what Favreau seems like he is going to be doing.

While Bruce Lee might be a martial arts bad ass I don't see him cracking open Iron Man like a lobster, he would need some enhancement buddddy.

The Mandarin isn't Bruce Lee. The Mandarin is more like an evil version of Remo Williams, and him being that way is a huge part of his cool factor. Taking that away is like taking away Doom being a sorcerer, it sucks out a huge part of his cool factor.

[terry78]

he looks like shredder but blue :S

He'll get those wretched reptiles.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

He'll get those wretched reptiles.

Also, we should cast Uncle Phil in the role of the Mandarin if we're looking for Shredder similarities.:grin:

[Thor Odinson]

Some of starks tech. reached the leader of the ten rings "the manderin" b4 he could destroy it. the mandarin fashoned ten rings out of them, each with a different power.

[marcvader]

I really don't want to see Mandarin wearing any kind of suit. It would really cheapen the character for me. Any power or protection he needs should come from the rings and his rings alone.

[Rich Santoro]

i really don't want to see mandarin wearing any kind of suit. It would really cheapen the character for me. Any power or protection he needs should come from the rings and his rings alone.

qft

[terry78]

Has John Cho been cast as Mandarin?

http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/12/iron-man-iis-fa.html

[Chewy]

^ That originated from HERE (http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/2008/12/iron-man-rumor.html).

It's an idiotic joke from a writer who doesn't know the difference between a ridiculous rumor about Batman 3 from a British magazine and a legitimate scoop about Iron Man 2 from LatinoReview.

[terry78]

^I thought so at first, but I googled the thing and there's about 20 other high profile sites all saying the rumor has some merit. So I don't know.

[Chewy]

I know, and I'm honestly dumbfounded that anyone is running this story as legit

EW scoop-hounds nowhere near the development of Iron Man 2 have learned that John Cho has been cast as the Mandarin in Jon Favreau's follow-up to the gold-plated blockbuster. Cho, having appeared as both Harold and Sulu, will make the Asian geek trifecta with this role as the power-ring-wearing, power-mad villain. Other horribly placed sources tell us that Tommy Chong is being eyed to play the Mandarin's father, who claims to be the real genius responsible for the weaponeering success of Howard Stark, Tony's beloved dad.

Does that sound real enough to start a casting rumor? Feels like it to me. After all, was there any more than that to go on when people started talking about Tim Robbins in Iron Man 2, Eddie Murphy as the Riddler in Batman 3, or Rachel Weisz as Catwoman in the same? (Let the record show that I am 100 percent in favor of a Rachel Weisz Catwoman.)

Is it a popularity thing, is that why people feel the need to start these rumors? What purpose do they serve, other to make people think you know more than anyone else? Why do these baseless rumors get any traction at all? Surely, we've got more important things to do with our time.

That said, I really would like to see Rachel Weisz as Catwoman. Which of these rumors do you wish were true? And, hey, wanna start one while you're at it?