"Persona" Discussion Thread

[PJBoy]

Synopsis:
"Spider-Man -- wearing a new black costume courtesy of an alien Symbiote -- learns the hard way not to judge a book by its cover, when another Spider-Man starts making headlines...as a crook! It's the Chameleon, master of disguise, looting the city and laying the blame at Spidey's feet. The Web-Slinger's forced to team up with another crook, the lovely Black Cat, to stop his foe's faux-Spidey crime spree and clear his name."
Watch the trailer here:
http://www.cw4kids.com/home

[Hurm...]

Yes! Chameleon! Woot! + new suit!

[Joker]

Oh no, Black Cat is coming :down

[Hurm...]

Oh no, Black Cat is coming :downLOL I know what you mean :down but they've improved on a lot of the smaller villains...she can't get worse.






Hopefully.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Sounds awesome! I'm looking foward to seeing them team up. :up:

[Venomfan]

black cat :down
chameleon i've always liked, but he doesnt stand a chance in a fight against Spidey, let alone symbiote spidey

[ReggieWhiteJr]

I can't wait to see what Black Cat and Chameleon will look like. And black suit Spidey! As funny as I thought Peter's dancing was in SM3, I hope they avoid it in this series.

[Webhead2006]

Cool cool bio for the episode i guess people got it wrong thinking were to be in episode 9 when its just gobby again which we know now, the episode sounds good and man poor chameleon shows up after spidey got the symboite he is going to get his butt handed to him. Cant wait to see Chameleon's true look and black cat hopefully some time this week since we are getting a rerun of episodes after this coming saturday's episode right.

[Joker]

LOL I know what you mean :down but they've improved on a lot of the smaller villains...she can't get worse.

With Black Crappy, they can always make her worse. I just hope her role is very small.


chameleon i've always liked, but he doesnt stand a chance in a fight against Spidey, let alone symbiote spidey

Chameleon has never been a physical threat to Spider-Man ever. His intelligence and morphing ability is what makes him dangerous and a challenge.

[sauronthegreat]

WOW! I was waiting for this since the begging of this show. I doubted that this episode may be a letdown, because of the Black Cat... but now... I have no worries. The perfect combination: Black Spidey, Black Cat, Chameleon!

[Venom.X]

A discussion thread already?

So, any mention of Quentin Beck? It seemed like the whole "Frame Spider-Man" angle would have been a Mysterio schtick.

[Spider-ManHero12]

I wonder how Black Cat will act and look like. :up:

[Spiderine]

black cat :down
chameleon i've always liked, but he doesnt stand a chance in a fight against Spidey, let alone symbiote spidey
I doubt if we get some kind of brawl between Spidey and Chameleon. Sounds more like wit against wit as Spidey tries to solve the mystery. Chameleon will likely be impersonating everyone.

[ReggieWhiteJr]

Chameleon has always been one of my fav Spidey villains. Even with his Spider-Sense to warn him of shape shifters, Chameleon is still one tough customer in the brains area. Should be interesting to see how Spidey handles him.

[zeptron]

I hope "Venomized" Peter does something nasty to Flash and Sally(I can't stand that little b****.)

[Spider-ManHero12]

Chameleon has always been one of my fav Spidey villains. Even with his Spider-Sense to warn him of shape shifters, Chameleon is still one tough customer in the brains area. Should be interesting to see how Spidey handles him. I always found Chameleon to be very cool and underrated. Defenitley one of the classics if you ask me.

[Ray-Fu]

Whoo! Thsi is exciting news! I'm looking forward to the designs on these characters. Hope they're justa s good as the ones we've been getting! I also wonder if Felicia will be a teenager or if they'll play her up as someone that is older and crushes on Spidey ala Ultimate Spidey :D

Gonna be great either way :)

[Web-Head]

I don't think you guys should worry about Black Cat, the crew's done a marvelous job reinventing the classic villains, so I'm excited for Black Cat to say the least.

Yes! Chameleon. The first villain to frame Spidey in this show and the comics.

Is it possible for Spidey to get the symbiote at the end of The Uncertainty Principle? They don't mention anything about him getting the suit here.

[Gotham]

Chameleon? Didn't know he'd be showing up this season. Good to know. And I can't wait for this episode! :up:

[Venom 1988]

I don't think you guys should worry about Black Cat, the crew's done a marvelous job reinventing the classic villains, so I'm excited for Black Cat to say the least.

Yes! Chameleon. The first villain to frame Spidey in this show and the comics.

Is it possible for Spidey to get the symbiote at the end of The Uncertainty Principle? They don't mention anything about him getting the suit here.

Hmm its a possiblity, especially since John Jameson is coming back on his shuttle

[SpideyFan85]

Synopsis:



Not that I doubt you, but do you have a source? I haven't seen this Synopsis on any of the sites I look at for news, and I don't know where you could have found that.:huh:

[Venom 1988]

Not that I doubt you, but do you have a source? I haven't seen this Synopsis on any of the sites I look at for news, and I don't know where you could have found that.:huh:
Its PJboy, hes valid. He has his sources and wont reveal them

*shakes fist*

:oldrazz::hyper:

[Spider-ManHero12]

Hmm its a possiblity, especially since John Jameson is coming back on his shuttle Yeah, and I think it just makes for a great ending to this episode, especially because it's the episode before he becomes Black-suit Spidey.

[Webhead2006]

yea watch the episode description is probably going to show up tomorrow or something on CC along with black cat/chameleon pics i bet.

[Ray-Fu]

I want those pics NOWWWW :mad: :D

[MarvelWarrior]

I wonder how revealing her costume will be. And how old she will be.

[Webhead2006]

Well i figure we will get them this week if not definitely next week to peak our interests since there is no new episode next weekend right.

[Sawyer]

Symbiote? Chameleon? Black Cat? ....:up:

[Webhead2006]

i bet they will probably have her in the 18-22 yrs of age so she isnt to much older then peter.

[Gotham]

i bet they will probably have her in the 18-22 yrs of age so she isnt to much older then peter.

More than likely. Though, if she's older, I'd like to see how they handle that.

[spida-man]

arg i'm gonna miss out on the next few episodes seeing as how i am grounded! could u al at least save me some good Black-Suit Spider-Man avvys?(especially since i already called first dibs :) )

[Sawyer]

Well Tricia Helfer is doing Black Cat's voice...I cant really imagine her playing a 19 year old convincingly...

[Anwar]

Well, this is her first VA job.

And the actress who does MJ's voice is 39 or so.

[Sawyer]

Well, this is her first VA job.

And the actress who does MJ's voice is 39 or so.

For serious? Didnt know that. Then again, isnt the one playing MJ a professional voice actor? Thus, wouldnt it be easier for her to sound younger than it would for Helfer?

[Sarcastic Fan]

I love Black Cat. Looking forward to this.

[Spider-ManHero12]

i bet they will probably have her in the 18-22 yrs of age so she isnt to much older then peter. Yeah, I mean, I really don't think a a late 20's or early 30's Black Cat flirting with Spidey would work that well.

[Ray-Fu]

Yeah, I mean, I really don't think a a late 20's or early 30's Black Cat flirting with Spidey would work that well.

It could if she didn't know how old he was under the mask. I think there could be some great moments with the experienced Black Cat and a hormonally charged Spidey :D The hijinx!!

[Spider-ManHero12]

It could if she didn't know how old he was under the mask. I think there could be some great moments with the experienced Black Cat and a hormonally charged Spidey :D The hijinx!! Lol. :woot:

[Webhead2006]

yea that would be funny but i bet they will keep them closer in age.

[Spider-ManHero12]

yea that would be funny but i bet they will keep them closer in age. Yeah, that's what I think as well. :up:

[Visionary]

Is this episode coming on this Saturday?

[zeptron]

^Next Saturday. The Uncertainty Prinicple airs this week.

[Spider-ManHero12]

I doubt there will be much updates to Black Cat's costume. Hell, there really never has been alot of updates to her costume in the comics.

[Visionary]

^Next Saturday. The Uncertainty Prinicple airs this week.That's right...silly me.

[Anwar]

Only thing worse than normal Spidey meeting a hottie like the Cat is symbiote-infected Spidey meeting a hottie like the Cat. He'll be even less inhibited than usual!

[Spider-ManHero12]

I can't wait to see Spidey's reaction when he sees Black Cat for the first time. :up:

[Webhead2006]

yea my guess if they dont have a revealing neckline with the white poofy stuff on it they will probably make it more t-shirt like collar and tighter around her neck with the poofy thing. But if they can get away with what mj wore at the dance then i dont see a problem with revealing neckline for black cat.

[ReggieWhiteJr]

I don't think Cat will have a revealing outfit. They wanted to show MJ's cleavage but the higher ups said no.

[Ratcrawler]

Don't see why. They showed Rogue's & Scarlett Witch's in Evo. Anyway, if Cat is in fact an older woman, it really shouldn't be a problem at all. EsPecially considering Galloway's simplified art style.

[aragen]

I really don't care about anything else but seeing what the black suit will look like. Is it going to be comic based or the movie look? It will somewhat give us a peak at what Venom will look like cause I'm really hoping for the "Twisted Spider-Man" look.

[Anwar]

We see Black Suit Spidey in the opening titles every episode. All that changes is the color, the design is still the same.

So in other words it's the same as the movie: Same design, but now it's black and white.

[Webhead2006]

I really don't care about anything else but seeing what the black suit will look like. Is it going to be comic based or the movie look? It will somewhat give us a peak at what Venom will look like cause I'm really hoping for the "Twisted Spider-Man" look.
Where u been man, we known what the symboite suit and venom look like for a long time. As stated by above poster they are going movie look for symboite suit. As for venom this is what he looks like:
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s79/PJBoySv/VENOM2.jpg

[Anwar]

Still think it's silly that the suit will mess up Brock's proportions so much. I hate it when biceps are that much bigger than a guy's head.

In This case, it's biceps, forearms AND the shoulders that are bigger than his head.

[Webhead2006]

well if the symboite has the shapeshifting powers maybe do to his anger and rage to peter the suit comes up with this look.

[Venomfan]

at least Venoms design stuck close to the comic, can't say the same for symbiote spider-man, he looks like crap

[Webhead2006]

yea i wish they went with the comics look for spidey but they decide to take sm3 route. Hopefully the symboite has all the comics powers/weakness. That was one thing i didnt like in sm3 they skiped out on some of the powers symboite has.

[Anwar]

They really didn't, Symbiote Spidey defeated Sandman while Normal Spidey couldn't.

Also, the real problem in the movie was that in SM2 they had that awesome show of him stopping the train. In order to show the symbiote truly making him more powerful they'd have had to have shown him doing something even bigger than that. What they heck could they have him doing that would be more impressive than that? He'd have to stop a 747 from crashing or something.

[Webhead2006]

no i mean in the comics the symboites powers were enhance strength, organic webbing, shapeshifting powers long with other things. In the movie we didnt see alot of the powers the symboite has in the comics.

[Spider-ManHero12]

no i mean in the comics the symboites powers were enhance strength, organic webbing, shapeshifting powers long with other things. In the movie we didnt see alot of the powers the symboite has in the comics. Actually, we did see alot of it. I mean, we saw the enhanced strength, stronger webbing, etc. I mean, we didn't see everything Venom can do, but we saw a great amount if you ask me.

[Anwar]

Actually in the comics all the symbiote did was mimic clothing and give him a storage place for his camera he didn't have before. The stuff about making him stronger was from the 80s cartoon.

And since he had natural web shooters in the movies that aspect of the suit was unneeded.

Like I said the movie version did make him stronger and stuff, it was just done more subtle (beating Sandman when he couldn't before) and there wasn't any time for him to go around seeing what he could do.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Actually in the comics all the symbiote did was mimic clothing and give him a storage place for his camera he didn't have before. The stuff about making him stronger was from the 80s cartoon.

And since he had natural web shooters in the movies that aspect of the suit was unneeded.

Like I said the movie version did make him stronger and stuff, it was just done more subtle (beating Sandman when he couldn't before) and there wasn't any time for him to go around seeing what he could do. Indeed, but I was talking about the Symbiote bonding with Brock.

[Anwar]

They did show that, look during their fight: Venom was beating Spidey senseless the whole time. It just goes so fast you can hardly tell.

[Spider-ManHero12]

They did show that, look during their fight: Venom was beating Spidey senseless the whole time. It just goes so fast you can hardly tell. I know, but what I meant was in the comics.

[Venom.X]

Actually in the comics all the symbiote did was mimic clothing and give him a storage place for his camera he didn't have before. The stuff about making him stronger was from the 80s cartoon.

There was only one instantance in the comics where the symbiote did give Spidey a boost of strenght & speed. In ASM 254, the Jack-o-Lantern notices, other than Spidey sporting a new costume, that this Spider-Man is stronger than before and faster than before.

[Ratcrawler]

Still think it's silly that the suit will mess up Brock's proportions so much. I hate it when biceps are that much bigger than a guy's head.

In This case, it's biceps, forearms AND the shoulders that are bigger than his head.

Yeah, but if you think about it, Venom appears to have the power to mutate Brock's head, sPlit his cheeks, unhinge his jaws, grow longer, sharper teeth and grow a seven foot tongue. Upper body strength seems awfully plausible compared to that.

[Anwar]

Isn't the mouth, elongated jaw and huge tongue just something the symbiote creates OVER Brock's face? As in, it's pretty much an illusion/mask while inside Brock is the same?

[Spider-ManHero12]

Isn't the mouth, elongated jaw and huge tongue just something the symbiote creates OVER Brock's face? As in, it's pretty much an illusion/mask while inside Brock is the same? In the comics, yes. In the films, we can see that Brock's teeth are sharp, which means that the symbiote could have made his face turn into Venom, instead of covering it. However, I'm not 100% sure about that.

[Valorman]

Isn't the mouth, elongated jaw and huge tongue just something the symbiote creates OVER Brock's face? As in, it's pretty much an illusion/mask while inside Brock is the same?

think of the anatomy of that for a second. their is no way eddies face could fit behind the tonsil area of venoms *fake mouth* if that were the case. it has always been that the suit modifies eddies biological structure, including extending his jaw, tounge, teeth, and overall body proportions. people just tend to throw the logic of that aside because it's hard to swallow, but the suits been doing that to eddie for years.

[Anwar]

Well, in the 90s cartoon it was just an illusion there as well. Remember how when the symbiote came off the jaw split apart and revealed normal Eddie? He was still wearing his clothes from when they first joined!

[Valorman]

90's couldn't portray graphic or extensive animations, you think they'd be able to show eddies jaw retracting?

the simple thing is, no one really talked about this, they just kind of drew it however they thought it could look. the POINT is, logically, their IS no possible way the mask is illusion, it recedes into his throat, and the tounge extends from the inside of his esophagus. how would he perform speech if the symbiote was creating some type of flesh "mask"? not only that, but the damn thing, i repeat, would have to flatten eddies face to the back of his neck to do so. the point is, the mouth can bite and enclose objects like all mouths can, which means theirs nothing in between the teeth, which means either A: it's eddies actual, venom-assisted mouth or B: the head of the suit is all venoms and eddies head is somehow squished in the three inches of space behind the throat.

[Anwar]

Then there was that bizarre and graphic scene in the "Planet of the Symbiotes" comic series where we saw Eddie's face slowly morph into Venom's, beginning with the symbiote coming out of Eddie through his tearducts, and then Venom's tongue coming out of his still normal human mouth...

[Web-Head]

Don't see why they decided to go with webbing on the symbiote suit. Would've provided even sleeker animation on Spidey since the animators wouldn't have needed to draw the webs.

[BleJd]

Some people was complaining about Spidey's Black Suit in this thread and I don't know why, because suit has the classic look, only spider symbol on the chest is smaller. A way better design than movie-black suit.

[Orb]

It has webbing on it like the movie.

[Arcturus]

So the black suited Spider-man will confront the Black Cat & Chameleon, I can't wait to see how this turns out!

[Kal-El 8]

Synopsis:

"Spider-Man -- wearing a new black costume courtesy of an alien Symbiote -- learns the hard way not to judge a book by its cover, when another Spider-Man starts making headlines...as a crook! It's the Chameleon, master of disguise, looting the city and laying the blame at Spidey's feet. The Web-Slinger's forced to team up with another crook, the lovely Black Cat, to stop his foe's faux-Spidey crime spree and clear his name."


I wonder if Peter Parker's appearence will change to Emo Parker . :hehe:

[PJBoy]

I wonder if Peter Parker's appearence will change to Emo Parker . :hehe:
I certainly hope not. :oldrazz:

[Venomfan]

I wonder if Peter Parker's appearence will change to Emo Parker . :hehe:
wouldn't be surprised at all unfortunatly, hopefully they won't go that way, but their taking the look of the symbiote suit from the movie, so who knows what else they'll take. they'll probably want it to be the same as the movie so all the little kids recognize it

[ReggieWhiteJr]

I wonder if Peter Parker's appearence will change to Emo Parker . :hehe:

CRAAAAAWLING IN MY SKIIIIIIIIIIIN!!

[Spider-ManHero12]

Hmm, I wonder if that'll happen. I doubt it though.

[Venom 1988]

CRAAAAAWLING IN MY SKIIIIIIIIIIIN!!

ugh, I threw up a little in my mouth

[Spiderine]

Can't wait to see how Chameleon is portrayed.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Can't wait to see how Chameleon is portrayed. Agreed, in the comics, he was badass and clever, so I really think they will adapt that attitude into the show.

[Webhead2006]

Yea i wonder what take on chameleon will they do classic way where he is just a makeup guy or do something like 90s show did to him. As for symboite peter/spidey i doubt they will do emo.

[ReggieWhiteJr]

I so do not want to see emo Peter. You know, it would be nice if the suit were just a suit, meaning it doesn't enhance aggression.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Yea i wonder what take on chameleon will they do classic way where he is just a makeup guy or do something like 90s show did to him. As for symboite peter/spidey i doubt they will do emo. As I have said, I think they will make him wear masks and such like in the comics. That's just what I think though.

[Webhead2006]

probably right.

[Web-Head]

The suit makes him agressive in the show. Says so on the profile on the back of the symbiote Spidey toy.

[Spider-ManHero12]

The suit makes him agressive in the show. Says so on the profile on the back of the symbiote Spidey toy. Cool, I think I forgot what I read on the back cover. I'll go read it in a little while. Anyway, I think it's cool that it will make him more agressive because it can really make for interesting stories and things like that. I'm also interested in seeing how Peter's friends will act when they see and talk to the more agressive Peter.

[ReggieWhiteJr]

So the black suit is gonna make Peter like Clark in Smallville when he's on red K. Wonder what MJ will think of this Peter.

[Spider-ManHero12]

So the black suit is gonna make Peter like Clark in Smallville when he's on red K. Wonder what MJ will think of this Peter.Well, I think MJ might be a bit freaked out as well.

[spida-man]

So the black suit is gonna make Peter like Clark in Smallville when he's on red K. Wonder what MJ will think of this Peter.
it will aslo make him even more cooler than clark

[spida-man]

double post sorry

[spida-man]

I wonder if Peter Parker's appearence will change to Emo Parker . :hehe:
FOR THE LAST TIME!!!!
PETER WAS NOT EMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
grrr

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/05/01/amd_spidermantobey.jpg'http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/3561/symbspidrvu5.jpg

[ironman29758]

Yeah if dancing is emo I'm in the dark about what is emo :oldrazz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9TIAhEHvwA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TnaBCd_6-k&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3vJfiClwzM&feature=related

[Anwar]

If anything, "Venomized" Movie Peter was an anti-Emo.

[DACrowe]

Already? huh.

I personally like BC when she is well done like in the mid-80s before Peter and MJ got married, TAS and recently Kevin Smith and Mark Millar and Dan Slott have all made her a viable ally and friend to Spidey again.

Hopefully it'll be along those lines and not the late '80s and '90s comic version of her which sucked.

[Web-Head]

http://www.cw4kids.com/home

Preview's up. All I gotta say is damn.:wow: The webs on the black suit don't even bother me. Notice the upside down mirror scene at the end, like in SMTAS and SM3.

[CaptainStacy]

http://www.cw4kids.com/home

Preview's up. All I gotta say is damn.:wow: The webs on the black suit don't even bother me. Notice the upside down mirror scene at the end, like in SMTAS and SM3.

Looks wickid as hell! I love it! :up:

[Arcturus]

Wow!

A preview already? And I'm already digging the black suited Spider-Man! The animation of the symbiote seemed very fluid! I can't wait to see how this episode unfolds.

[ReggieWhiteJr]

Wow! They haven't even aired The Uncertainty Principle and this is up? Man, SWEET!! Suit looks even better in motion.

[Spiderine]

http://www.cw4kids.com/home

Preview's up. All I gotta say is damn.:wow: The webs on the black suit don't even bother me. Notice the upside down mirror scene at the end, like in SMTAS and SM3.
Homages to both TAS and SM3. Cool

[Webhead2006]

Yea promo looks wicked sweet.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Originally Posted by Web-Head http://forums.superherohype.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=14771282#post14771282)
http://www.cw4kids.com/home

Preview's up. All I gotta say is damn.:wow: The webs on the black suit don't even bother me. Notice the upside down mirror scene at the end, like in SMTAS and SM3.
Awesome preview! I can't wait to see what he does with the black suit and oh, I love the homages to S-M:TAS and S-M3. :wow::up:

[Hurm...]

Even the webs he shoots out are black. I'm guessing there going with the whole, no need for webshooters, thing.

[Webhead2006]

yea they better have all the comics powers, organic webbing, and all the other things.

[Joker]

I see the movie's influence with the black costume design. You could see the web patterns from the red and blue Spidey costume on the black one.

[Anwar]

Yeah, they did the same thing the movie did and just had the symbiote change the coloring of the costume but not the design.

Makes sense, why would the symbiote have human fashion design sense? Peter also wasn't thinking of another costume at the time, so...

[Spider-ManHero12]

I'm so glad that the webbingi s black and organic. In the comics, the Symbiote had an unlimited amount of webbing, so I can't wait to see that adapted into this show.

[Anwar]

It didn't have an unlimited amount. Remember how Spidey beat Venom in the first Venom story?

[Spider-ManHero12]

It didn't have an unlimited amount. Remember how Spidey beat Venom in the first Venom story? Oh right, I forgot about that. However, it did have a great amount. More than the webshooters of course.

[Hurm...]

Yeah, or...as the episodes progress, Spidey's attitude will too. Possibly also changing the suit on him. Right now it's the movie costume look, then maybe the comics look which is very similar to Venom's suit, and once Peter is completely nuts, he slowly has a look VERY similar to Venom's look on the show. But before he gets completely hooked on the suit, he takes it off and it lands on Eddie. Eddie has all that anger building up inside him that he goes straight to the psychotic Venom's look.


Kind of explains why the suit suddenly changes from Spidey's costume to Venom's look. It all depends on how much anger builds up inside whoever is in the suit.


Just a thought :oldrazz: It would also explain why Hasbro has a completely different look for there toy? IDk

[Spider-ManHero12]

Yeah, or...as the episodes progress, Spidey's attitude will too. Possibly also changing the suit on him. Right now it's the movie costume look, then maybe the comics look which is very similar to Venom's suit, and once Peter is completely nuts, he slowly has a look VERY similar to Venom's look on the show. But before he gets completely hooked on the suit, he takes it off and it lands on Eddie. Eddie has all that anger building up inside him that he goes straight to the psychotic Venom's look.


Kind of explains why the suit suddenly changes from Spidey's costume to Venom's look. It all depends on how much anger builds up inside whoever is in the suit.


Just a thought :oldrazz: It would also explain why Hasbro has a completely different look for there toy? IDk I really like that idea. It has a great "edge of your seat" feeling to it. :up:

[Cmill216]

Chameleon, Black Cat, and the black suit?

This episode sounds epic. :hehe:

[Joker]

I hope Black Cat doesn't ruin this episode.

I can't stand her.

[Hurm...]

I hope Black Cat doesn't ruin this episode.

I can't stand her.Me-Ow. Your feisty.:oldrazz:

[Spider-ManHero12]

Chameleon, Black Cat, and the black suit?

This episode sounds epic. :hehe: Indeed, there is no doubt that this episode will be intense! :up:

[ReggieWhiteJr]

Pics. NOW! :cmad:

[Spider-ManHero12]

Pics. NOW! :cmad: Agreed! :venom:

[Ray-Fu]

Loving the black costume and I'm soooo stoked to see it next week. Every episode is better and better.

This is the one cartoon that can force me to get up at 8 in the morning to watch :D It's been a long time since any cartoon can do that to me :o

[Silver Spider]

Homages to both TAS and SM3. Cool
I have a feelimg that every incarnation of Spiderman that tells the Venom origin, from now on, will have that scene.:word:
Promo was sweet. My only complaint is that Spidey still shoots webs from his wrists, in the black suit.

[PJBoy]

http://www.cw4kids.com/home

Preview's up. All I gotta say is damn.:wow: The webs on the black suit don't even bother me. Notice the upside down mirror scene at the end, like in SMTAS and SM3.
:wow: Holy crap!!

[AIRWOLF]

It didn't have an unlimited amount. Remember how Spidey beat Venom in the first Venom story?


I hope that's what Spidey will use to beat Venom, staying true to comics a bit.

Also, I hear that symbiote is coming through a meteor, is it true? Well if it is, they could have thought of something better.

Anyways, that's an awesome promo. Can't wait to see the Black Spidey!

[vinny2]

I hope that's what Spidey will use to beat Venom, staying true to comics a bit.

Also, I hear that symbiote is coming through a meteor, is it true? Well if it is, they could have thought of something better.

Anyways, that's an awesome promo. Can't wait to see the Black Spidey!

Symbiote's already here. The meteor hit John Jameson's shuttle and he brought it back on reentry. It kind of a mix between the arrivals in S:TAS and SM:3

[Jick09]

SYMBIOTE!
finally

[PJBoy]

Will Spidey use the symbiote to defeat the Sinister Six?

[Kal-El 8]

http://www.cw4kids.com/home

Preview's up. All I gotta say is damn.:wow: The webs on the black suit don't even bother me. Notice the upside down mirror scene at the end, like in SMTAS and SM3.

Finally the Symbiote arc :sym:

[Farren]

Am I the only one who's not that jazzed for the Black Suit?

I just feel oversaturated with it so soon after the movie, and I'm reallly enjoying these old school villains.

I wonder how old Black Cat is going to be. Will they de-age her to match Spidey? Or will he be jail bait?

[spida-man]

I hate the fat that i am gonna miss the story arc that I have been waiting for since the very first trailer for this animated series, but at least there will be a DVD.

[Silver Spider]

I think Black Cat could work well, if she's like Eddie's age.

[ReggieWhiteJr]

I wonder how Peter will act around Black Cat in his new suit. He'll have it for what, 3 eps?

[Visionary]

The promo is amazingly damn cool. :cool:

[Spider-Gnome]

Am I the only one who's not that jazzed for the Black Suit?

I just feel oversaturated with it so soon after the movie, and I'm reallly enjoying these old school villains.

I wonder how old Black Cat is going to be. Will they de-age her to match Spidey? Or will he be jail bait?

No, I'm with you. I don't have any of that black suit/Venom backlash, but I feel they should have waited to at least the end of the second season. Afterall, Spidey started in the early/mid 60's, and black suit/Venom was the mid/late 80's. Much rather see more classic stuff first then get to Venom.

[Styleshift]

naw...im not too excited for the black suit either.
its too early...feels like they only made that move ENSURE that they'd be green lighted for a 2nd season....

i give them credit though. he was 15 years old fighting a threat like venom in ultimate spidey. now that was stupid. lol.

[Joker]

Will Spidey use the symbiote to defeat the Sinister Six?

I'd love to see Doc Ock fight black suit Spider-Man:


http://www.samruby.com/Series/Webspinners/Large/Webspinners18.jpg

[Spider-ManHero12]

I'd love to see Doc Ock fight black suit Spider-Man:


http://www.samruby.com/Series/Webspinners/Large/Webspinners18.jpg Agreed! That would be badass! :up:

[CBGB]

I hope Black Cat doesn't ruin this episode.

I can't stand her.

They'll make her cool, I have faith :woot:

[Gotham]

I loved that preview. Next week should be awesome.

[SpideyFan85]

Black Cat was in the Uncertainty Principle, during the halloween scene. Don't know if any of you noticed, but she looked like classic Black Cat.

[Silver Spider]

Most people noticed Cat in the Uncertainty Principle. I was so suprised by that scene. For some reason I feel like that wasn't really her.

[SpideyFan85]

Most people noticed Cat in the Uncertainty Principle. I was so suprised by that scene. For some reason I feel like that wasn't really her.
Yeah, I had that thought too, but it could be she's using Halloween as a way to sneak around in costume to steal stuff. Hiding in plain sight?

[Spider-ManHero12]

Most people noticed Cat in the Uncertainty Principle. I was so suprised by that scene. For some reason I feel like that wasn't really her. I knew it was her as soon as I saw her. I mean, why would she be carrying a bag of cash? :yay:

[Silver Spider]

I knew it was supposed to be Black Cat, I just didn't feel like it was the "real" Black Cat.

[CBGB]

I never noticed Black Cat in that episode...

[Spider-ManHero12]

I knew it was supposed to be Black Cat, I just didn't feel like it was the "real" Black Cat. Oh. :yay:

[Anwar]

One thing I don't get is how the symbiote survived. If it's still weak against fire then being on the outer hull of the shuttle would've burned it up.

Unless they've ignored that and made sound it's only weakness.

[varsas]

http://www.cw4kids.com/home

Preview's up. All I gotta say is damn.:wow: The webs on the black suit don't even bother me. Notice the upside down mirror scene at the end, like in SMTAS and SM3.

Perhaps it because I'm in the UK but I get redirected to http://cw4k.com/home which doesn't have a home directory...can some capture the promo and put it on youtube or similar?

[Webzpinner]

Am I the only one who's not that jazzed for the Black Suit?

I just feel oversaturated with it so soon after the movie, and I'm reallly enjoying these old school villains.

I wonder how old Black Cat is going to be. Will they de-age her to match Spidey? Or will he be jail bait?


No, I'm with you. I don't have any of that black suit/Venom backlash, but I feel they should have waited to at least the end of the second season. Afterall, Spidey started in the early/mid 60's, and black suit/Venom was the mid/late 80's. Much rather see more classic stuff first then get to Venom.

All things considered, cartoons these days make just enough episodes to hit syndication. After that, no big deal. Venom and the black suit is a MUST HAVE for the very reason you stated.... the movie. The only reason 60% of people saw that movie was for Venom. He's huge merchandising draw.

Black cat should be a college-age girl... think about the ego-stroker and confusion that would be to both sides... Spidey thinking he's all that, coz he's courting a "real woman" and Black Cat's shock when she finds out Spidey is really a snot-nosed little kid.


naw...im not too excited for the black suit either.
its too early...feels like they only made that move ENSURE that they'd be green lighted for a 2nd season....

i give them credit though. he was 15 years old fighting a threat like venom in ultimate spidey. now that was stupid. lol.

I liked Ultimate Venom arc, except Brock needed a bit more fleshing out to give him a real reason to fuel a hatred. If they did Brock like the movie or this cartoon, he'd have been an awesome character, rather than a scary date-rapist-wannabe. That was unnerving.

One thing I don't get is how the symbiote survived. If it's still weak against fire then being on the outer hull of the shuttle would've burned it up.

Unless they've ignored that and made sound it's only weakness.

easy... it hid under the heat panels after impact, and is now dripping out of the fuselage like an oil leak. Would also explain why no one was concerned until it wiggled at John Jameson.

[Spider-ManHero12]

easy... it hid under the heat panels after impact, and is now dripping out of the fuselage like an oil leak. Would also explain why no one was concerned until it wiggled at John Jameson. Nice, I knew it had to hide somewhere. :up:

[Joker]

They'll make her cool, I have faith :woot:

Unless they do a complete rewrite of the character, she will not be cool.

[PJBoy]

Perhaps it because I'm in the UK but I get redirected to http://cw4k.com/home which doesn't have a home directory...can some capture the promo and put it on youtube or similar?
I would do it but I've deleted my youtube account. :whatever:

[Webzpinner]

Unless they do a complete rewrite of the character, she will not be cool.

Aside from the horrible character in the 90's cartoon, what's wrong with the Black Cat? I liked her as a character (then again, I only read the 80's and early 90's version of the character). Did she eat someone's baby or something recently? Wouldn't surprise me if she did, since I remember hearing something a few years ago about Norman Osborn coming back from the dead and he fathered kids with Gwen and all sorts of other BS.

I always liked Black Cat as a temptation for Peter to give up his "normal" identity and become Spider-Man full time, whereas MJ was tempting for Peter to give up his red-and-blues. Other than that, it's true there isn't much to the character, but she's got a lot more development than Shocker or Rhino, yet few badmouth them.

I swear, you'd think she was Paste Pot Pete or something!

[Web-Head]

I knew it was supposed to be Black Cat, I just didn't feel like it was the "real" Black Cat.
Why? She was holding a bag of cash in her arms.

[Ratcrawler]

Don't see where all the Black Cat hate is coming from. I barely remember her from TAS but I loved her in Ultimate sPidey.

[Venomfan]

Yeah, or...as the episodes progress, Spidey's attitude will too. Possibly also changing the suit on him. Right now it's the movie costume look, then maybe the comics look which is very similar to Venom's suit, and once Peter is completely nuts, he slowly has a look VERY similar to Venom's look on the show. But before he gets completely hooked on the suit, he takes it off and it lands on Eddie. Eddie has all that anger building up inside him that he goes straight to the psychotic Venom's look.


Kind of explains why the suit suddenly changes from Spidey's costume to Venom's look. It all depends on how much anger builds up inside whoever is in the suit.


Just a thought :oldrazz: It would also explain why Hasbro has a completely different look for there toy? IDk
thats funny i was thinking the exact same thing, and i hope it to be the case, because copying the black suit from the movie is lame, that suit sucks compared to the normal one.

hate that he shoots black webs and out of his wrists like normal, not near as cool. its annoying that they take all these lame aspects from the movies

[Venom 1988]

thats funny i was thinking the exact same thing, and i hope it to be the case, because copying the black suit from the movie is lame, that suit sucks compared to the normal one.

hate that he shoots black webs and out of his wrists like normal, not near as cool. its annoying that they take all these lame aspects from the movies

Christ everythings pissing you off huh? :oldrazz:

I liked the suit from the movie, not as cool as the comics, but its still alright. I swear is it really THAT big of a deal, especially the part about where he shoots his webs from and the color of the webs?

[Anwar]

In the movies he never needed webshooters to begin with, they're built into him. So there was no reason to have him shoot the webs any different as Symbiote-Spidey.

[Silver Spider]

thats funny i was thinking the exact same thing, and i hope it to be the case, because copying the black suit from the movie is lame, that suit sucks compared to the normal one.

hate that he shoots black webs and out of his wrists like normal, not near as cool. its annoying that they take all these lame aspects from the movies
While I agree with you about the webs, I personally think the movie's suit was okay. They made a suit for the movie that looked like the comics version, but it didn't work, so they changed it. And if you think about it, why would the suit look like the comic's version. I mean, there's no Spider-woman around.

[Venomfan]

Christ everythings pissing you off huh? :oldrazz:

I liked the suit from the movie, not as cool as the comics, but its still alright. I swear is it really THAT big of a deal, especially the part about where he shoots his webs from and the color of the webs?
lol no not everything does, its just everyone else is always blabbing on about the awesome stuff so i see no need to add to it. and to me the way he shot the webs out of the top of his wrists was always really cool, so ya i think it sucks they didn't do it that way, i thought the same thing about how they did this in the movie too

[Silver Spider]

Hopefully Venom will shoot webs from the back of his hand.

[Joker]

Aside from the horrible character in the 90's cartoon, what's wrong with the Black Cat?

Where to start?

The bad luck powers, the slutty attitude, the ridiculous jealousy of Peter and MJ to the point where she dated Flash just to try and make Peter jealous even though he was happily married to MJ :whatever: , consistently ending up in jeopardy with Spidey having to save her.

The worst part is the whole lame Catwoman rip off: Jewel thief with a cat motif, athletic fighter, romantic interest with the hero etc.

[Sarcastic Fan]

Where to start?

The bad luck powers, the slutty attitude, the ridiculous jealousy of Peter and MJ to the point where she dated Flash just to try and make Peter jealous even though he was happily married to MJ :whatever: , consistently ending up in jeopardy with Spidey having to save her.

The worst part is the whole lame Catwoman rip off: Jewel thief with a cat motif, athletic fighter, romantic interest with the hero etc.

Nothing wrong with a slutty attitude.

[jerky123]

I got to say, I hope they pay with the black suit right cause I don't want to see Peter acting like a retard, trying to take his suit to the limit....:venom:

[Venom.X]

Where to start?

The bad luck powers, the slutty attitude, the ridiculous jealousy of Peter and MJ to the point where she dated Flash just to try and make Peter jealous even though he was happily married to MJ :whatever: , consistently ending up in jeopardy with Spidey having to save her.

The worst part is the whole lame Catwoman rip off: Jewel thief with a cat motif, athletic fighter, romantic interest with the hero etc.

Hey! I like the bad luck powers! The bad luck powers were cool.

Felicia and Flash crossing the street holding each others hand. A car hits Flash and keeps going; Felicia keeps walking, having not realized what happened.

[spida-man]

I don't know about u guys but I am more excited to see What Black-Suited Spider-Man will do to Toombstone.

[Venomfan]

Nothing wrong with a slutty attitude.
haha

anyway don't know if this is true, but i've read that Batman TAS actually updated Catwoman to be more like Black Cat

[Spider-ManHero12]

IMO, Black Cat is a very cool character. So, IMO, as I have said, it's going to be cool seeing her team up with Spidey.

[ReggieWhiteJr]

I've yet to be disappointed with any villain in this show. So I have faith SSM's version of Black Cat will be cool. I want to see what Chameleon will look like.

[Spider-ManHero12]

I've yet to be disappointed with any villain in this show. So I have faith SSM's version of Black Cat will be cool. I want to see what Chameleon will look like. I completely agree and since every Villian has looked great so far, I really think Chameleon's look will be so awesome.

[Ratcrawler]

Yeah, didn't Catwoman used to just commit crimes using big cats before she actually became a cat burgalur(sP?)? Besides, Tricia Frakkin' Helfer is voicing her and the show's had a sPotless track record. Let's see what's new with this pussycat.

[Valorman]

im itching to see black cat in action!

[Spider-ManHero12]

I can't wait to see her confontation with Spidey. :up:

[Valorman]

I can't wait to see her confontation with Spidey. :up:
Man, im in the same place as you, im so excited for this episode!

[ReggieWhiteJr]

Tricia is the Battle Star Galactica chick, right? Saw her pic on Wiki. DAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAANG!!! :wow:

I'm stoked for the dialog we'll hear between Spidey and Cat.

[Web-Head]

I think it's nifty Black Cat is appearing during the symbiote arc since she had a thing for it in the comics.

[Kal-El 8]

I'm not really a huge fan of Black Cat (To me she's basically A Catwoman rip-off character) I also hated when she went after Peter when he was happyly married to Mary Jane .

I do however like the character Felicia Hardy,

[Webzpinner]

Where to start?

The bad luck powers, the slutty attitude, the ridiculous jealousy of Peter and MJ to the point where she dated Flash just to try and make Peter jealous even though he was happily married to MJ :whatever: , consistently ending up in jeopardy with Spidey having to save her.

The worst part is the whole lame Catwoman rip off: Jewel thief with a cat motif, athletic fighter, romantic interest with the hero etc.

Black Cat is no where near being a Catwoman rip off. Sure they are both women with a cat motif, but Catwoman was always obsessed over cats the way Batman was over bats, and her crimes and methods always included a cat angle. Black Cat is just a thief. Nothing more, nothing less. She had bad luck powers for a few months thanks to Kingpin, but other than that, she's been a support character for Spider-Man, and one of the few confidants he's had.

Why is it when a guy acts all machismo and "chick-magnet" no one says anything, but when a girl shows the slightest hint of a confident sexual identity, she's labeled as slut?

As I said before, Black Cat was/is a strong support character in the Spidey Universe, and should therefore get good representation in this cartoon.

thats funny i was thinking the exact same thing, and i hope it to be the case, because copying the black suit from the movie is lame, that suit sucks compared to the normal one.

hate that he shoots black webs and out of his wrists like normal, not near as cool. its annoying that they take all these lame aspects from the movies

I am one of the few lifelong Spider-man fans who actually prefers the movie black costume over the original. From a non-marketing standpoint, it makes more sense, considering in the original comics, the symbiote "ate" the old suit off Peter, it should have replaced the original design. I like the movie's look.

Also, I'm upset that Spectacular went with the webshooters. Sure, they are "core mythos" to spidey, but this Peter Parker doesn't look or act smart enough to design them. Organic webs would have been better, but oh well.

I've loved almost everything this series has done so far, so I'm VERY excited to see Black Cat, Sinister Six, and Venom! For the first time in 20 years, this series has made me respect and appreciate the Shocker (which says something, considering his bad rap in the comics)!

[Webhead2006]

why do u say that about peter, we have seen that he is pretty smart guy.

[Silver Spider]

Black Cat is no where near being a Catwoman rip off. Sure they are both women with a cat motif, but Catwoman was always obsessed over cats the way Batman was over bats, and her crimes and methods always included a cat angle. Black Cat is just a thief. Nothing more, nothing less. She had bad luck powers for a few months thanks to Kingpin, but other than that, she's been a support character for Spider-Man, and one of the few confidants he's had.

Why is it when a guy acts all machismo and "chick-magnet" no one says anything, but when a girl shows the slightest hint of a confident sexual identity, she's labeled as slut?

As I said before, Black Cat was/is a strong support character in the Spidey Universe, and should therefore get good representation in this cartoon.



I am one of the few lifelong Spider-man fans who actually prefers the movie black costume over the original. From a non-marketing standpoint, it makes more sense, considering in the original comics, the symbiote "ate" the old suit off Peter, it should have replaced the original design. I like the movie's look.

Also, I'm upset that Spectacular went with the webshooters. Sure, they are "core mythos" to spidey, but this Peter Parker doesn't look or act smart enough to design them. Organic webs would have been better, but oh well.

I've loved almost everything this series has done so far, so I'm VERY excited to see Black Cat, Sinister Six, and Venom! For the first time in 20 years, this series has made me respect and appreciate the Shocker (which says something, considering his bad rap in the comics)!
:word::yay: Great post.

[hpwiz89]

Well I'm still looking forward to Black Cat even if she may be a rip-off of Catwoman. It will be fun to see how Spider-Man/Peter interacts with her.

[Arcturus]

I definitely like the design of the black suited spider-man in Spider-Man 3. I like the idea of the symbiote saturating and assimilating the design of the original costume. So naturally, I like the idea appearing again in the Spectacular Spider-Man. But my favorite is the original symbiote suit, always will be.

:up:

[Joker]

Black Cat is no where near being a Catwoman rip off. Sure they are both women with a cat motif, but Catwoman was always obsessed over cats the way Batman was over bats, and her crimes and methods always included a cat angle.

Are you serious?

Do you want me to post scans of Catwoman stealing Jewelry and cash from safes, with no cat relatedness at all?

- Selina Kyle is a rich social woman. So was Felicia Hardy.
- Catwoman had a secret identity. So did Black Cat.
- Catwoman is a sexy, athletic fighter. So is Black Cat.
- Catwoman is a cat burglar. So is Black Cat.
- Catwoman has a sexual interest in the hero. So does Black Cat.
- Catwoman and hero knew eachother behind the masks. So did Black Cat and Spidey.
- Catwoman can alternate between goodie and baddie. So does Black Cat.

Do I have to go on?

Black Cat is just a thief. Nothing more, nothing less.

So is Catwoman.

She had bad luck powers for a few months thanks to Kingpin, but other than that, she's been a support character for Spider-Man, and one of the few confidants he's had.

But a very poor one. She's jealous of Peter and MJ, always getting herself put in jeopardy. A hindrance more than a help. Uses Peter's mates to try and make him jealous etc.

Awful character.

Why is it when a guy acts all machismo and "chick-magnet" no one says anything, but when a girl shows the slightest hint of a confident sexual identity, she's labeled as slut?

Ummmm what? When did Spider-Man ever behave like a chick magnet? Black Cat pursued him. He never led her on.

Black Cat on the other hand, threw her feminine wiles around every which way.

As I said before, Black Cat was/is a strong support character in the Spidey Universe, and should therefore get good representation in this cartoon.

Given the character's history, I cannot agree.

[Wobblebobble]

Are you serious?

Do you want me to post scans of Catwoman stealing Jewelry and cash from safes, with no cat relatedness at all?

- Selina Kyle is a rich social woman. So was Felicia Hardy.
- Catwoman had a secret identity. So did Black Cat.
- Catwoman is a sexy, athletic fighter. So is Black Cat.
- Catwoman is a cat burglar. So is Black Cat.
- Catwoman has a sexual interest in the hero. So does Black Cat.
- Catwoman and hero knew eachother behind the masks. So did Black Cat and Spidey.
- Catwoman can alternate between goodie and baddie. So does Black Cat.

Do I have to go on?


I'm not totally convinced. Many characters in comics are rich socialites, Bruce Wayne has probably been to more than his fair share of charity benefit galas. An awful lot of characters have a "sexy, athletic" fighting style, of course who fits this in category really is dependent on personal tastes. The same goes for cat burglars, which at times have been dime a dozen. Ambiguous allegiances are also not uncommon, Magneto has had his streaks of goodieness. A number of character know each others identities, even if this is a recent development as I believe it is with catwoman and batman (hush?).

And as for sexual interest in the hero, well that's just taken for granted especially in the spidey-verse. :D (cough)Electro(cough)

All in all, nothing really conclusively similar about these two that couldn't be said of a myriad of other character, except perhaps the cat-based name. Even then, I was under the impression that until surprisingly recently Catwoman was quite a cheesy cat-themed villain, who became a well-rounded, less-cat-themed character well after the appearance of Black Cat, whose name I always took to be bad-luck themed, rather than out-and-out cat themed.

I don't care for the character a huge amount either, although this is possibly due to not reading the right stories, but saying that she is a total rip-off is quite unfounded.

[Joker]

I'm not totally convinced. Many characters in comics are rich socialites

And how many are sexy female cat burglars with masks and secret identites, who are in love the hero, and can alternate between goodie and baddie, and fight like agile cats?

Bruce Wayne has probably been to more than his fair share of charity benefit galas. An awful lot of characters have a "sexy, athletic" fighting style, of course who fits this in category really is dependent on personal tastes. The same goes for cat burglars, which at times have been dime a dozen. Ambiguous allegiances are also not uncommon, Magneto has had his streaks of goodieness. A number of character know each others identities, even if this is a recent development as I believe it is with catwoman and batman (hush?).

All you've done there is identified one trait from them in several different characters.

By that logic, you might as well say Doc Ock and Green Goblin are the same because they were both scientists who got their powers from a lab accident.

And as for sexual interest in the hero, well that's just taken for granted especially in the spidey-verse. :D (cough)Electro(cough)

Black Cat and Spidey were an item. There is nothing taken for granted there.

All in all, nothing really conclusively similar about these two that couldn't be said of a myriad of other character, except perhaps the cat-based name.

Are you for real? You list me "a myriad of other characters" who share as much in common as Catwoman and Black Cat do, and I'll concede to you.

[Syncos]

Black cat is definitnitely not a Catwoman knockoff.

ahem:
"Felicia Hardy's signature costume, cat burglar profession, and her steady relationship to Spider-Man predate Selina Kyle's similar depiction in comics by almost a decade. Catwoman spent most of her comic life as a purple-dressed female super villain who used big cats to commit anything but subtle crimes. Selina Kyle's modern comic book incarnation as a black suited cat burglar with romantic ties to Batman didn't occur until 1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987) with Frank Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Miller_%28comics%29)'s classic Batman: Year One (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Year_One)."

If anything, new age representations of Catwoman would be based off of Black Cat. But other than being similar, i wouldn't call either a knock off.

They're cat burglars with a cat motif. seems logical. Don't even dare try to tell me that the phrase cat burglar came from Catwoman. Chock it up to coincidence.

[Valorman]

it's all a classic superman V.S. Captain marvel *shazam* scenario, one came first, but the character after it introduced a new status quo that the previous character followed, creating similarities.

[Wobblebobble]

Just to clarify, I'm not defending black cat, I just am not convinced that she's a rip-off.

And how many are sexy female cat burglars with masks and secret identites, who are in love the hero, and can alternate between goodie and baddie, and fight like agile cats?

I'm not saying there aren't similarities, simply that most of these similarities are based on ideas which are found in many characters and as such are not tied to a particular character. There are also substantial differences between the two, e.g. Black Cat's bad luck theme, Selina's use of big cats, Black cat is reformed, Catwoman's whip. Surely these differences are just as important to making up the character as fighting style? And definitely more important than secret identities and masks, which are found practically universal amongst comic heroes and villains.


All you've done there is identified one trait from them in several different characters.

By that logic, you might as well say Doc Ock and Green Goblin are the same because they were both scientists who got their powers from a lab accident.

How is this different from saying that Felicia and Selina are the same because they are mask wearing cat burglars with secret identities? You have just extended the list of similarities slightly to include amiguous loyalties (which I'm not sure apply to felicia anymore but I could be mistaken) and acrobatic "cat-like" fighting style which isn't that rare at all. An awful lot of the other similarities were introduced to catwoman in the late 80/early 90s, and so if anything she turned into a Black cat rip-off.

What I'm trying to say is that you can list the similarities between the two, but most of them seem to be comic book stereotypes that neither character can claim as theirs. The differences on the other hand are much more individual and, I would argue, more important to the character. Except the big cat thing.

Black Cat and Spidey were an item. There is nothing taken for granted there.

Are you for real? You list me "a myriad of other characters" who share as much in common as Catwoman and Black Cat do, and I'll concede to you.

Okay, I admit I got slightly excited here, and was just looking to use the word myriad in a sentence. Still that isn't to say that there aren't some.

Let's see... Man-Wolf and Lizard?

Avid spider-man supporters and all-round nice guys (when normal).
Accidentally turned into bestial monsters.
Heightened strength, stamina, senses.
Don't remember their actions as their monster alter-egos.
Spidey friends turned spidey enemies.

Not the best comparison, but a fair example of how you can build up a good number of similarities between two characters, if you find two that fit a stereotype e.g Jeckell/Hyde or Cat-Burglar (which when women are sexy, but the guys are all elderly and have mustaches?)

The important parts of characters are the details, including their motivations, character and relationships, these often reveal differences from, rather than similarities to, other characters.

[Webhead2006]

hmmm i was just rewatching the promo for next week's episode with the symboite and i noticed the back spider is totally black and not white like any of the crappy looking toys and all that.

[FNSpidey]

Syncos hit the nail in the head. They're both cat burglars with the obvious cat motif, not much to criticize there. But the most important aspect of Felicia as a supporting character is neither her costume, nor her powers (which have varied drastically over the years anyway). It's her special relationship with Spidey.

Sure, not much of it was there during the 90's, with Spidey happily married (until recently, that is :whatever:). But during the 80's storylines, she was a very refreshing character.

Since Spidey's creation, we'd seen the Spider-man persona causing problems for Peter Parker. Black Cat was the catalyst to explore the exact opposite dynamic, Peter Parker as an obstacle to Spidey's life. Throughout their (troubled) relationship, Black Cat was teaching Peter to enjoy his mysterious vigilante persona, prowling the rooftops at night, loving the freedom of masked life and leaving everyday problems behind him. There even was a point when Spidey wondered if Peter Parker was actually necessary and considered a masked life with Felicia.

Those were great stories. Combined with Dr Octopus (epic fights with Cat injured), the Kingpin (and his manipulation of Cat's desire for actual superpowers) and the black suit, the presence of Black Cat gave us a refreshing look at Spidey's life. I'll never forget Felicia's unexpected reaction of disbelief upon seeing Peter's apartment, which then evolved to something like horror upon seeing his real face. For her, Peter was Spidey and only Spidey, while Peter just stripped him of his grandeur and mystery. And through her eyes, the readers experienced that too.

I agree that after Pete got married, Black Cat's uses became quite limited. But since Spectacular Peter is still single and young, Cat's introduction to this show (if handled correctly) can be very exciting indeed.

[Joker]

Black cat is definitnitely not a Catwoman knockoff.

ahem:
"Felicia Hardy's signature costume, cat burglar profession, and her steady relationship to Spider-Man predate Selina Kyle's similar depiction in comics by almost a decade. Catwoman spent most of her comic life as a purple-dressed female super villain who used big cats to commit anything but subtle crimes. Selina Kyle's modern comic book incarnation as a black suited cat burglar with romantic ties to Batman didn't occur until 1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987) with Frank Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Miller_%28comics%29)'s classic Batman: Year One (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Year_One)."

If anything, new age representations of Catwoman would be based off of Black Cat. But other than being similar, i wouldn't call either a knock off.

They're cat burglars with a cat motif. seems logical. Don't even dare try to tell me that the phrase cat burglar came from Catwoman. Chock it up to coincidence.

LMAO! Well, I see that piece of BS came from Wikipedia, one of the most unreliable sites on the net, as anyone can add info to it. I'm going to happily put it to shame. This is from Batman #197, 1967. The earliest Catwoman story I own:


http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/Jokerfan1980/CatwomanpwnsBlackCat.jpg


That's from a Batman comic book in 1967. Black Cat made her debut in 1979. Remind me again, who is based off who? Who predates who by a decade? When did Catwoman's romantic ties with Batman start? :cwink:

I'm not saying there aren't similarities, simply that most of these similarities are based on ideas which are found in many characters and as such are not tied to a particular character. There are also substantial differences between the two, e.g. Black Cat's powers, Selina's use of big cats, Black cat is reformed, Catwoman's whip. Surely these differences are just as important to making up the character as fighting style?

You are ignoring the most obvious fact: The characters share a myriad of similarites. The differences you mentioned are minute. They are not substantial. One uses a whip, one doesn't etc Of course Black Cat doesn't use a whip. She's the Marvel version of Catwoman. In the Marvel universe, you gotta' have super powers if you're going to fight with the big boys.

And definitely more important than secret identities and masks, which are found practically universal amongst comic heroes and villains.

Not in the way they're used. Catwoman and Black Cat's are used to protect their cat burglar activites from the law, and are used as part of the mystery attraction between hero.

How is this different from saying that Felicia and Selina are the same because they are mask wearing cat burglars with secret identities? You have just extended the list of similarities slightly to include amiguous loyalties (which I'm not sure apply to felicia anymore but I could be mistaken) and acrobatic "cat-like" fighting style which isn't that rare at all. An awful lot of the other similarities were introduced to catwoman in the late 80/early 90s, and so if anything she turned into a Black cat rip-off.

As I demonstrated above, Catwoman's were entirely original and predated Black Cat's for YEARS. So, your arguement here is moot.

What I'm trying to say is that you can list the similarities between the two, but most of them seem to be comic book stereotypes that neither character can claim as theirs.

Of course neither character owns all those traits. But Catwoman had them together first long before Black Crappy did. That's why she's a knock off.

Okay, I admit I got slightly excited here, and was just looking to use the word myriad in a sentence. Still that isn't to say that there aren't some.

Let's see... Man-Wolf and Lizard?

Avid spider-man supporters and all-round nice guys (when normal).
Accidentally turned into bestial monsters.
Heightened strength, stamina, senses.
Don't remember their actions as their monster alter-egos.
Spidey friends turned spidey enemies.

Two different animals, two different types of characters - an astronaut and a scientist. One deliberately did it to himself, the other didn't. One is a mentor to Peter, the other isn't, entirely different relationship. One has a family which plays a huge part in the character's arc, the other doesn't. Different motivations between the characters etc.

I could go on and on.....

The important parts of characters are the details, which often reveal differences from, rather than similarities to, other characters.

I agree. But Black Cat and Catwoman share so many important similarities that it's glaringly obvious that Catwoman was an obvious inspiration for Black Cat.

[Webhead2006]

i think when he said predates by a decade was the current black suit look of catwoman compared to black cat who has always been in a black outfit since she was created.

[Joker]

i think when he said predates by a decade was the current black suit look of catwoman compared to black cat who has always been in a black outfit since she was created.

Ok. But I never listed the costume as a rip off. They don't really look alike. I'm talking about character, not appearance.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Are you serious?

Do you want me to post scans of Catwoman stealing Jewelry and cash from safes, with no cat relatedness at all?

- Selina Kyle is a rich social woman. So was Felicia Hardy.
- Catwoman had a secret identity. So did Black Cat.
- Catwoman is a sexy, athletic fighter. So is Black Cat.
- Catwoman is a cat burglar. So is Black Cat.
- Catwoman has a sexual interest in the hero. So does Black Cat.
- Catwoman and hero knew eachother behind the masks. So did Black Cat and Spidey.
- Catwoman can alternate between goodie and baddie. So does Black Cat.

Do I have to go on? Yes, she is alot like Catwoman, but she is still awesome and she adds something to Peter parker's life.

[Syncos]

LMAO! Well, I see that piece of BS came from Wikipedia, one of the most unreliable sites on the net, as anyone can add info to it. I'm going to happily put it to shame. This is from Batman #197, 1967. The earliest Catwoman story I own:


http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/Jokerfan1980/CatwomanpwnsBlackCat.jpg


That's from a Batman comic book in 1967. Black Cat made her debut in 1979. Remind me again, who is based off who? Who predates who by a decade? When did Catwoman's romantic ties with Batman start? :cwink:



I could mention your other points, but since they're ridiculous, i'll pass.
Your comic passage proves nothing.

You're pointing out that she had feelings. Where as the information about black cat said "Steady Relationship". If someone has feelings for someone else, but they can't be together for whatever reason, is vastly different from having an actual relationship.

Thank you, try again.

[Joker]

I could mention your other points, but since they're ridiculous, i'll pass.
Your comic passage proves nothing.

Proves nothing? It proves Catwoman had a romantic interest in Batman loooooooooooooong before Year One in 1987, as your ridiculous Wikipedia article claimed. And long before Black Crappy was created.

You're pointing out that she had feelings. Where as the information about black cat said "Steady Relationship"

See above answer.

And you're splitting hairs here. Batman didn't have a relationship with Catwoman because he didn't trust her. Only difference is that Spidey was foolish enough to trust Black Cat, and it blew up in his face.

If someone has feelings for someone else, but they can't be together for whatever reason, is vastly different from having an actual relationship.

The premise is the same. You're trying to split hair again to make it seem different. Romantic interest in the hero is a romantic interest in the hero.

Thank you, try again.

Oh, I've got plenty more. For example, would you like me to post the scans of where Catwoman was fiercely jealous of Batman seeing Vicki Vale in the early 80's? Something Black Cat ripped off with Spidey seeing MJ in the early 90's.

Just say the word. My scanner is raring to go :cwink:

[Syncos]

Proves nothing? It proves Catwoman had a romantic interest in Batman loooooooooooooong before Year One in 1987, as your ridiculous Wikipedia article claimed. And long before Black Crappy was created.



See above answer.

And you're splitting hairs here. Batman didn't have a relationship with Catwoman because he didn't trust her. Only difference is that Spidey was foolish enough to trust Black Cat, and it blew up in his face.



The premise is the same. You're trying to split hair again to make it seem different. Romantic interest in the hero is a romantic interest in the hero.



Oh, I've got plenty more. For example, would you like me to post the scans of where Catwoman was fiercely jealous of Batman seeing Vicki Vale in the early 80's? Something Black Cat ripped off with Spidey seeing MJ in the early 90's.

Just say the word. My scanner is raring to go :cwink:

You're kidding, right? Being infatuated with someone and having a relationship with them are two completely different ballgames, pal. trust me, i've been in both fields.

I'm not splitting hairs. The fact that batman couldn't trust catwoman, and that black cat had actually reformed to a crime fighter, proves that they're different.

[Cmill216]

Black cat is definitnitely not a Catwoman knockoff.


:funny:

[Joker]

You're kidding, right? Being infatuated with someone and having a relationship with them are two completely different ballgames, pal. trust me, i've been in both fields.

Uhhh, Catwoman was not infatuated with Batman. She genuinely loved him. This was established in dozens of stories. I have scans of that, too. He just didn't trust her. Batman hardly trusts anyone like that.

I'm not splitting hairs. The fact that batman couldn't trust catwoman, and that black cat had actually reformed to a crime fighter, proves that they're different.

But Black Cat didn't reform. She went back to crime several times. It's only in the last decade or so that she reformed. Same as Catwoman. Catwoman even had her own comic book series running for years. Still going, I think.

[Arcturus]

Haha, Joker is on fire!

Fight the good fight.

[Wobblebobble]

You are ignoring the most obvious fact: The characters share a myriad of similarites. The differences you mentioned are minute. They are not substantial. One uses a whip, one doesn't etc Of course Black Cat doesn't use a whip. She's the Marvel version of Catwoman. In the Marvel universe, you gotta' have super powers if you're going to fight with the big boys.

Not in the way they're used. Catwoman and Black Cat's are used to protect their cat burglar activites from the law, and are used as part of the mystery attraction between hero.

As I demonstrated above, Catwoman's were entirely original and predated Black Cat's for YEARS. So, your arguement here is moot.

Of course neither character owns all those traits. But Catwoman had them together first long before Black Crappy did. That's why she's a knock off.

Myriad is a cool word isn't it! I have never really considered black cat's mask to be much of a disguise, it's obvious who she is to anyone, it's a costume. Many costumed characters are dressed the way they are to disguise themselves, heroes and villains. It's not a catwoman thing. As for the relationships with heroes, doesn't batman have the whole "will-they-won't-they" thing with catwoman? While Black Cat's relationship with Spidey was actually official for a while? I don't know too much about this but that's how I saw it. I'm sure others on here could point out differences in their relationships much better than I.

Also we seem to attach different weight to different aspects of these characters. In my mind, catwoman's whip is one of her defining attributes, like spidey's webs. Ditto with the Black Cat-Bad Luck thing, power-based or the products of booby traps. You obviously disagree, attaching more weight some of the similarities. We will probably never agree, but does it matter?

Can we get back to talking about the cartoon? For all any of us know, this incarnation could be mind-bogglingly awesome.

Two different animals, two different types of characters - an astronaut and a scientist. One deliberately did it to himself, the other didn't. One is a mentor to Peter, the other isn't, entirely different relationship. One has a family which plays a huge part in the character's arc, the other doesn't. Different motivations between the characters etc.

I could go on and on.....

The details aren't the point. I was trying to show that, by being selective, you can find a reasonable number of similarities in two characters who no-one would suggest were knock offs of one another, simply that they are based on similar ideas.

As mentioned above it all hinges on what you consider important to the characters, and we obviously have different opinions on that.


I agree. But Black Cat and Catwoman share so many important similarities that it's glaringly obvious that Catwoman was an obvious inspiration for Black Cat.

I don't really see it. The whole "cat-themed-cat-burglar" occurring twice isn't the biggest leap of imagination ever. It could easily be a coincidence. Did anyone else read that the Black Cat's inspiration was from a Tex Avery cartoon?

[Wobblebobble]

Oh, I've got plenty more. For example, would you like me to post the scans of where Catwoman was fiercely jealous of Batman seeing Vicki Vale in the early 80's? Something Black Cat ripped off with Spidey seeing MJ in the early 90's.

Just say the word. My scanner is raring to go :cwink:

I might not agree with you, but you have to appreciate the passion! :D

[Syncos]

Uhhh, Catwoman was not infatuated with Batman. She genuinely loved him. This was established in dozens of stories. I have scans of that, too. He just didn't trust her. Batman hardly trusts anyone like that.



But Black Cat didn't reform. She went back to crime several times. It's only in the last decade or so that she reformed. Same as Catwoman. Catwoman even had her own comic book series running for years. Still going, I think.


Being in love and not having those feelings returned while not having a relationship still counts as being infatuated, pal. She loved him. but they weren't a couple.

Black cat was reformed as of ASM #75. (1969) where they started a relationship. that's not exactly the last decade or so.

[vinny2]

Remind me again. Why does it matter if Black Cat is a rip-off? Catwoman is a good character, right? If Black Cat is a copy, then shouldn't Black Cat also be a good character?

[IamProdigy]

Ehhh....Marvel has copied DC characters for a long time...it's obvious Iron Man is, to some degree, a rip-off of Batman, so why bother arguing about rip-off characters?

What's funny though is that I actually like Marvel much, much better than DC, except for Batman, Superman, Flash and Green Lantern, lol.

[Syncos]

Ehhh....Marvel has copied DC characters for a long time...it's obvious Iron Man is, to some degree, a rip-off of Batman, so why bother arguing about rip-off characters?

What's funny though is that I actually like Marvel much, much better than DC, except for Batman, Superman, Flash and Green Lantern, lol.

That's the thing. every idea originates somewhere. it's where the writing direction takes the characters that makes them good or not. It's like saying Superman Birthright is based on smallville. According to the writers, it's not. but there's no denying that it's very similar. There will be people fighting until the end of fandom for both sides, when the point is actually moot.

[Wobblebobble]

Remind me again. Why does it matter if Black Cat is a rip-off? Catwoman is a good character, right? If Black Cat is a copy, then shouldn't Black Cat also be a good character?

Hear hear!

Can we put the fussin' and the feudin' behind us and turn our minds to more important issues?

Who thinks chameleon is a rip-off? ;)

Seriously though, can we please get back to talking about the cartoon?

[Silver Spider]

Did anyone else read that the Black Cat's inspiration was from a Tex Avery cartoon?
I've heard of that before.

[Joker]

Myriad is a cool word isn't it!

It is. Thanks to you, I might start using it more :cwink:

I have never really considered black cat's mask to be much of a disguise, it's obvious who she is to anyone, it's a costume. Many costumed characters are dressed the way they are to disguise themselves, heroes and villains. It's not a catwoman thing.

I never said the concept of a mask is a Catwoman thing. I said the mask hiding her identity from the hero, adding to the sexual tension and mystery of her relationship with the hero is a Catwoman thing.

As for it being obvious who Black Cat is, alot of heros have obvious identities. In the comic book world, we overlook it because it's fantasy. I mean Clark Kent and his glasses.......LOL!

As for the relationships with heroes, doesn't batman have the whole "will-they-won't-they" thing with catwoman? While Black Cat's relationship with Spidey was actually official for a while? I don't know too much about this but that's how I saw it. I'm sure others on here could point out differences in their relationships much better than I.

As I said above, the concept was the same, it's just that Spidey was foolish enough to trust Black Cat, and it blew up in his face. Batman never let Catwoman into his life like that. Well, not until 2003 in Hush. But, there was special circumstances there.

Also we seem to attach different weight to different aspects of these characters. In my mind, catwoman's whip is one of her defining attributes, like spidey's webs. Ditto with the Black Cat-Bad Luck thing, power-based or the products of booby traps. You obviously disagree, attaching more weight some of the similarities. We will probably never agree, but does it matter?

Again, as I said above to someone, whip, costume etc is not something I'm talking about here. I never listed it in their similarities. I'm talking about the character itself, as in what they do, who they are, how they act, their relationship with the hero etc.

Can we get back to talking about the cartoon? For all any of us know, this incarnation could be mind-bogglingly awesome.

Unless they do a rewrite of Black Cat, I know I wont like her.

The details aren't the point. I was trying to show that, by being selective, you can find a reasonable number of similarities in two characters who no-one would suggest were knock offs of one another, simply that they are based on similar ideas.

I know what you were doing, but the similarites are entirely different to Black Cat's and Catwoman's in that theirs are alot more specific and obvious.

As mentioned above it all hinges on what you consider important to the characters, and we obviously have different opinions on that.

Fair enough.

I don't really see it. The whole "cat-themed-cat-burglar" occurring twice isn't the biggest leap of imagination ever.

No. But making her have a secret identity, be sexy, athletic, romantically interested in the hero, alternate between good and bad etc is.

[IamProdigy]

Haha, that's funny you mentioned Smallville because in the first four seasons, it was pretty much hands-free, but now the latter seasons, you can put many similarities with Birthright or even anything about Superboy; the Clark/Lex friendship and what not. But the news about Doomsday being a human freak or whatever in season eight makes me have this newborn hatred over the series now, lol.

I'm not really a fan of Black Cat, but this series does need a female villain, or at least an anti-hero right now, especially if they have the Sinister Six; even with the symbiote, I bet they will have Black Cat and Spidey team up during that episode.

[Joker]

Being in love and not having those feelings returned while not having a relationship still counts as being infatuated, pal. She loved him. but they weren't a couple.

How is that infatuation? She didn't follow him around, or send him psycho letters, or have shrine of him in her home etc. Unreciprocated love is not infatuation.

Black cat was reformed as of ASM #75. (1969) where they started a relationship. that's not exactly the last decade or so.

That's a miracle, because Black Cat wasn't even created until 1979 :cwink:

[Syncos]

No. But making her have a secret identity, be sexy, athletic, romantically interested in the hero, alternate between good and bad etc is.

That's not a catwoman thing, though. That's a comic book trope to have a secret identity. As for the sexy athetic thing, that's what's related to a cat, is sleek, smooth and agile. as for the romantic interest thing. it's not too hard to think that both characters needed a romantic foil.

The secret identity gives the character depth. She's not black cat. she's not felcia, she's someone who's living a dual life. the difference is, she had an open relationship with peter, where he didn't have to hide his identity. and she -was- reformed.

[spider_man_2]

God, I hope not! I like Black Cat and all, but she doesn't strike me as someone able to hold her own against folks like Ock, Sandman or Electro. Maybe she could keep Vulture busy, though, while Symbiote Spidey pounds on the other five...

[Joker]

Remind me again. Why does it matter if Black Cat is a rip-off? Catwoman is a good character, right? If Black Cat is a copy, then shouldn't Black Cat also be a good character?

No, because they added traits like bad luck powers, trashy behaviour, using Peter's friends to try and make him jealous etc.

Catwoman's not that pathetic.

[IamProdigy]

God, I hope not! I like Black Cat and all, but she doesn't strike me as someone able to hold her own against folks like Ock, Sandman or Electro. Maybe she could keep Vulture busy, though, while Symbiote Spidey pounds on the other five...


Well on wikipedia.org, there's a picture of Black Cat and Spidey facing the Sinister Twelve, so they could have a BC/Spidey team-up. And also, I thought Black Cat would show up for more than "Persona"?

Yes, I know 12 is way more than 6, but still, lol.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/31/SinisterTwelve442.jpg

[Joker]

That's not a catwoman thing, though.

Yes, it is. How many other female characters can you list that had all those traits?

[spider_man_2]

Well on wikipedia.org, there's a picture of Black Cat and Spidey facing the Sinister Twelve, so they could have a BC/Spidey team-up. And also, I thought Black Cat would show up for more than "Persona"?

I remember one occasion in the 90's when she fought Scorpion and didn't do much damage. She did pretty well against Puma, though... So who knows. I'd just like to see Spidey all by himself against the Six, is all. It's a shame that we never got a fight like that in any of the videogames so far.

[spider_man_2]

Well on wikipedia.org, there's a picture of Black Cat and Spidey facing the Sinister Twelve, so they could have a BC/Spidey team-up. And also, I thought Black Cat would show up for more than "Persona"?

Yes, I know 12 is way more than 6, but still, lol.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/31/SinisterTwelve442.jpg

Hey, I have that issue :yay: She really didn't do much, though. The Avengers and F4 came in to round up the bad guys, Spidey went after the Goblin, handed Symbiote Gargan his butt along the way, and watched as a lightning bolt struck both Osborn and Ock as they fought on top of the by-now-cliché bridge. T'was pretty neat.

[Joker]

Hey, I have that issue :yay: She really didn't do much, though.

Electro zapped her early in the fight :hehe:

Spidey went after the Goblin, handed Symbiote Gargan his butt along the way, and watched as a lightning bolt struck both Osborn and Ock as they fought on top of the by-now-cliché bridge. T'was pretty neat.

I was disappointed that we didn't get a real Ock vs Goblin battle. Lightning hitting them was such a cop out.

[spider_man_2]

I was disappointed that we didn't get a real Ock vs Goblin battle.

Me too.

[IamProdigy]

Did Goblin and Ock ever fight? Like, a huge battle?

[Arcturus]

I don't mind the character of Black Cat, she was never really a favorite of mine but if the writers of Spectacular Spider-Man keep up their excellent writing, I'm sure she could work.

[Gotham]

I don't mind the character of Black Cat, she was never really a favorite of mine but if the writers of Spectacular Spider-Man keep up their excellent writing, I'm sure she could work.

Exactly. :up: The writing has been excellent thus far, and they've earned my trust with treating each character with respect. I believe in them.

[vinny2]

No, because they added traits like bad luck powers, trashy behaviour, using Peter's friends to try and make him jealous etc.

Catwoman's not that pathetic.

In that case, the problem is all those other traits that were added, not the fact that she's a rip-off. I think you're arguing about the wrong aspect of the character.

[Spider-ManHero12]

No, because they added traits like bad luck powers, trashy behaviour, using Peter's friends to try and make him jealous etc.

Catwoman's not that pathetic. Well, I must say, they are great characters, evem though of them is knock off of the other. I mean, they do have some differences, even if they are small.

[Web-Head]

Did Goblin and Ock ever fight? Like, a huge battle?
Yeah, the issue that follows the pic you posted above of the Sinister Twelve.

[Venomfan]

Black Cat i think is one character i could care less about if they changed any of her character, never liked her that much, and that she's able to keep up with Spideys villains was always stupid. One thing i wonder though is if she was named something that didn't have anything to do with a cat would people always be yelling rip off?

[Joker]

In that case, the problem is all those other traits that were added, not the fact that she's a rip-off. I think you're arguing about the wrong aspect of the character.

Not at all. I still think the character is so unoriginal in nearly every way. There's literally nothing really stand out unique about her. She reeks of Catwoman wannabe.

Let me cite you an example of similarities that work: take Green Goblin and Hobgoblin. Alot of similarities between them for obvious reasons. But Hobby and Gobby were unique in their personalities, their ambitions, their relationship with Spidey etc.

Hobgoblin really didn't feel like a Norman Osborn knockoff, despite the fact that he swiped Norman's stuff, wore a Goblin like costume, had similar powers to Norman etc.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Did you guys read "Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil that men do"? That story is very cool and interesting. It involves Spidey teaming up with Black Cat and things like that. Personally, that's one of the stories that made Black Cat so awesome. I mean, in her early appearances, she really did rob banks and such, then over time she did more than that. IMO, I think that would work great in the show, but like I said, I'm a fan of Black Cat so that's just how I feel.

[Wobblebobble]

As I said above, the concept was the same, it's just that Spidey was foolish enough to trust Black Cat, and it blew up in his face. Batman never let Catwoman into his life like that. Well, not until 2003 in Hush. But, there was special circumstances there.

Doesn't that make them different then? I mean in terms of their relationship with the hero?


Again, as I said above to someone, whip, costume etc is not something I'm talking about here. I never listed it in their similarities. I'm talking about the character itself, as in what they do, who they are, how they act, their relationship with the hero etc.

But to me the whip is important, she always has a whip and it's kind of her signature weapon/tool thing just as important as her fighting style. Same with Black cat's bad luck themed exploits, originally booby traps, then power-based. To me these are important parts of what they do and how they act. Part of what makes the character who they are. But you seem to disagree, which is cool, who's to say what's right and wrong on something like this?

Out of interest, so many writers have worked on the character over the years, is it possible to assign a single personality to either of these two?


Fair enough.

Shall we agree to disagree then?

No. But making her have a secret identity, be sexy, athletic, romantically interested in the hero, alternate between good and bad etc is.

All superheroines are sexy and athletic. It's the curse they have to bear.

Right back on topic!

Is anyone else concerned that we haven't seen much of Eddie Brock recently? His big transformation is coming up fast but we've barely seen him in the past couple of episodes.

Hopefully he'll make up for it in the next couple.

[Syncos]

How is that infatuation? She didn't follow him around, or send him psycho letters, or have shrine of him in her home etc. Unreciprocated love is not infatuation.



That's a miracle, because Black Cat wasn't even created until 1979 :cwink:

You're right, I confused myself. It was Spectacular #75 in 1983. still more than a decade.

Yes, it is. How many other female characters can you list that had all those traits?

Females who are sexy and agile and have a secret identity?

Black Canary
Batgirl
Harley Quinn
Black Widow
Psylock
Huntress
Tigra
Elektra

need i go on?

[Spider-ManHero12]

Not at all. I still think the character is so unoriginal in nearly every way. There's literally nothing really stand out unique about her. She reeks of Catwoman wannabe. Well, she isn't the greatest and most important character in Spidey's life, so I defenitley agree with that and she hasn't had a big impact, but she is still a character that is worth reading about and putting her in stories. I've always looked at Black Cat as a character could be used in stories when Spidey can't defeat a Villian alone, or something like that. Basically, she's meant to flirt with Spidey, but also to kick butt. Catwoman is a cool character to.

I mean, I haven't really read Batman comics, but I undertstand what her character is like. She has a secret identity (Selina Kyle) and she basically liked Bruce Wayne and flirted with him, then as Catwoman, she sort of flirted, but then fought with him. You are right, Joker, but I have to disagree about her reeking a Catwoman wannabe. As I have said, they defenitley have similarities, but they seem to have differences as well. Also, correct if i'm wrong about Batman and Catwoman fighting after flirting and such.

[jerky123]

Can we all just please just stop fighting about if Black Cat is a ripoff of Catwomen or not!?!?!?! Thank you..... Now, my hope about Black Spidy is that the more he keeps the suit on, the more Venom like he becomes.

[Syncos]

Not at all. I still think the character is so unoriginal in nearly every way. There's literally nothing really stand out unique about her. She reeks of Catwoman wannabe.

Let me cite you an example of similarities that work: take Green Goblin and Hobgoblin. Alot of similarities between them for obvious reasons. But Hobby and Gobby were unique in their personalities, their ambitions, their relationship with Spidey etc.

Hobgoblin really didn't feel like a Norman Osborn knockoff, despite the fact that he swiped Norman's stuff, wore a Goblin like costume, had similar powers to Norman etc.

This is what I don't understand. When the characters debuted, their only similarities where that they were cat burglars with cat motifs, who also had lives as socialites.

They have different motives, they have different styles, (no i'm sorry, being agile and sexy doesn't count as their actions. that's FAR too broad.) and their interactions were completely different with the lead character. which is the case in point.

[Joker]

Doesn't that make them different then? I mean in terms of their relationship with the hero?

The only difference is Peter trusted Black Cat. The premise is the same. Romantic interest with the hero, complicated by the fact of secret identities and the girl often being on the wrong side of the law.

But to me the whip is important, she always has a whip and it's kind of her signature weapon/tool thing just as important as her fighting style.

Actually she didn't always have the whip. In her early appearances it was absent.

But, to answer your point, the fighting style is the same. Catwoman doesn't always use her whip, either. Again, I have scans to prove this.

Same with Black cat's bad luck themed exploits, originally booby traps, then power-based. To me these are important parts of what they do and how they act. Part of what makes the character who they are. But you seem to disagree, which is cool, who's to say what's right and wrong on something like this?

Let me phrase it like this: It'd be like if a scientist villain with six mechanical tentacles debuted in DC. And people were saying he's not the same as Ock because of the simple fact that he has six tentacles rather than four.

Saying one sexy, cat like, athletic fighter is not the same as another because of the simple absence of a whip is silly, IMO.

Out of interest, so many writers have worked on the character over the years, is it possible to assign a single personality to either of these two?

I can't see any dramatic deviations with them. Has Spider-Man changed radically over the years?

Shall we agree to disagree then?

Sure.

All superheroines are sexy and athletic. It's the curse they have to bear.

Do all of them have cat motifs, are cat burglars, secret identities, alternate between being good and bad, have romantic interests with the hero etc? :cwink:

[Silver Spider]

Right back on topic!

Is anyone else concerned that we haven't seen much of Eddie Brock recently? His big transformation is coming up fast but we've barely seen him in the past couple of episodes.

Hopefully he'll make up for it in the next couple.
I've been a little dissappointed by the lack of major Eddie development lately.

[Joker]

You're right, I confused myself. It was Spectacular #75 in 1983. still more than a decade.

She returned to crime again after that. Spidey didn't even know she was Felicia Hardy by then yet.

Females who are sexy and agile and have a secret identity?

And are cat burglars, and alternate between good and bad, and are romantically interested in the hero.

You knew that's what I was asking.

need i go on?

Yes, I'd like to see your list with my above specifications, please.

This is what I don't understand. When the characters debuted, their only similarities where that they were cat burglars with cat motifs, who also had lives as socialites.

When they debuted, yes. We're not in the year where they debuted, are we? We're not ignorant of the facts that didn't exist when they debuted.

They have different motives

How?

they have different styles, (no i'm sorry, being agile and sexy doesn't count as their actions. that's FAR too broad.)

What about cat like, being cat burglars, opening locks and windows etc with their claws.

and their interactions were completely different with the lead character. which is the case in point.

Both characters sexually teased and tried to seduce the hero. Only the result is different.

[Spider-ManHero12]

I can't wait to see Black Suit Spidey web-swing through the night, not knowing that the suit is really an alien substance from space. Oh, it's going to be a great ride and Spider-Man comics have always been normal stories, not too light hearted and not dark, but there were some stories that were dark and when something dark happens in a Spider-Man related thing, it's defenitley going to be interesting. That's one of the reasons I'm really looking foward to this Symbiote arc.

[Syncos]

The only difference is Peter trusted Black Cat. The premise is the same. Romantic interest with the hero, complicated by the fact of secret identities and the girl often being on the wrong side of the law.

Except for the fact that they had a stable relationship, until shenanigans with Felcia and being powerless/getting powers. The premise isn't the same. It's similar.

Cat burglar shows up. Interested in Batman romantically. Batman can't trust her. She continues being a villain, while occasionally teaming up with batman.

Cat burglar shows up. Has a stable relationship with the hero where they're both open about identities. Nearly dies. Fears being a threat to hero. Gets Superpowers. Lies about it. Distrust. Breakup.

They're two different dynamics. There's room for similar characters in literary works without being knockoffs.


Actually she didn't always have the whip. In her early appearances it was absent.

Whether or not she always used her whip, doesn't matter. It is a signature of Catwoman. That most people would associate with her.

But, to answer your point, the fighting style is the same. Catwoman doesn't always use her whip, either. Again, I have scans to prove this.
I don't care if you have scans to prove catwoman didn't always have her whip with her. But show me scans to prove their fighting style is the same. Other than they're agile.

Saying one sexy, cat like, athletic fighter is not the same as another because of the simple absence of a whip is silly, IMO.

I can't see any dramatic deviations with them. Has Spider-Man changed radically over the years?

Saying one sexy, agile Athletic fighter is the same as another because they're sexy and agile, is absurd. Who the hell cares about a whip.

Do all of them have cat motifs, are cat burglars, secret identities, alternate between being good and bad, have romantic interests with the hero etc? :cwink:

The cat buglar with a cat motif is a literary pun. it makes sense. There's plenty of bad girls who have romantic interests with the hero. Some of which even alternate between bad or good.

Drama = comics. Anything to sell a page.

[Wobblebobble]

Actually she didn't always have the whip. In her early appearances it was absent.

But, to answer your point, the fighting style is the same. Catwoman doesn't always use her whip, either. Again, I have scans to prove this.

lol I don't doubt it. But Spidey doesn't always use his webs. Yet I still consider them important to the character.


Let me phrase it like this: It'd be like if a scientist villain with six mechanical tentacles debuted in DC. And people were saying he's not the same as Ock because of the simple fact that he has six tentacles rather than four.

Saying one sexy, cat like, athletic fighter is not the same as another because of the simple absence of a whip is silly, IMO.

There are lots of athletic, sexy fighters. There are a number of "cat" themed characters, it is things like the whip, or the bad luck thing (which is central to the character premise) which make the characters different. Same way that Ock's tentacles (regardless of number) are essential to who he is, separating him from other mad scientists. This is especially relevant with black cat, as the bad luck thing was a founding part of her character, just as much as any "cat" motif, and so is an important part of the character to me.

I can't see any dramatic deviations with them. Has Spider-Man changed radically over the years?

Maybe, just very gradually rather than radically. Is Spidey in Lee/Ditko the same as in Kraven's Last Hunt or in the clone saga or now? I don't know, it was just an idea.


Sure.


Oh good, otherwise I can see this going on for ages without actually getting anywhere!

[Joker]

Except for the fact that they had a stable relationship

I've already said that. The premise is the same, the result is different. Romantic interest in the hero is a romantic interest in the hero. Sexually teasing and seducing the hero. Spidey was just foolish enough to trust her.

They're two different dynamics.

No, they're not. They're the same dynamic with tweaks. Batman still worked with Catwoman many times, he just never committed to her romantically.

Whether or not she always used her whip, doesn't matter. It is a signature of Catwoman. That most people would associate with her.

Yes.....and? I never used the whip as a similarity between the two. The entire whip arguement here is ridiculous.

I don't care if you have scans to prove catwoman didn't always have her whip with her.

Touchy, aren't we? :hehe:

But show me scans to prove their fighting style is the same. Other than they're agile.

Agile, and claws people's faces, and flip and cartwheel, and crawl on buildings like cats.

Gladly. Have them for you later this evening. Watch this space.

Saying one sexy, agile Athletic fighter is the same as another because they're sexy and agile, is absurd.

Why do you keeping saying a half truth? That's not all I said. Do I have to copy and paste the quote? I said sexy, agile, cat like fighter. Fights like cat.

Who the hell cares about a whip.

Exactly what I've been saying all along. A minute difference.

Thank you.

The cat buglar with a cat motif is a literary pun.

I'm dying to hear your explanation for this one. I really hope you're not saying neither of them have any cat like traits, because if you are, you're really killing your arguement here.

There's plenty of bad girls who have romantic interests with the hero. Some of which even alternate between bad or good.

No, there's not. And certainly none that share in myriad of similarities that Black Cat and Catwoman do.

Drama = comics. Anything to sell a page.

In Black Cat's case, that's true.

[Wobblebobble]

I can't wait to see Black Suit Spidey web-swing through the night, not knowing that the suit is really an alien substance from space. Oh, it's going to be a great ride and Spider-Man comics have always been normal stories, not too light hearted and not dark, but there were some stories that were dark and when something dark happens in a Spider-Man related thing, it's defenitley going to be interesting. That's one of the reasons I'm really looking foward to this Symbiote arc.

Considering the amount of drama this show has already shown in its other arcs, this should be special. With Eddie as a close friend to both peter and gwen, this arc should really tug on the drama-strings!

Do you think we'll see evil Peter? If so, how? Moody evil? Violent evil? General d**khead evil?
All of the above?

[Joker]

lol I don't doubt it. But Spidey doesn't always use his webs. Yet I still consider them important to the character.

Because the webbing is a trait to the persona. A spider and webs. Catwoman goes more often without a whip than Spidey does with webbing.

Spidey would be nearly lost without the webbing. How would he get around New York so efficently, for example?

There are lots of athletic, sexy fighters. There are a number of "cat" themed characters

There's lots of athletic, sexy, cat themed characters? Like who?

I am asking you, how many other characters share the number of traits that Black Cat and Catwoman do?

it is things like the whip, or the bad luck thing (which is central to the character premise) which make the characters different.

Huh? The bad luck powers were never central to Black Cat's premise. She didn't even get them until several years after her creation. Hardly central to her character.

Maybe, just very gradually rather than radically. Is Spidey in Lee/Ditko the same as in Kraven's Last Hunt or in the clone saga or now? I don't know, it was just an idea.

His circumstances are different. His ideals and goals are not. They always remained the same.

Oh good, otherwise I can see this going on for ages without actually getting anywhere!

I've just about given up on Syncos. At least you remained respectful.

[Hurm...]

Damn, what a battle LOL

[Spider-ManHero12]

Do you think we'll see evil Peter? If so, how? Moody evil? Violent evil? General d**khead evil?
All of the above? I say a combination of moody evil, full of himself, and d**khead evil, but not being mean to people for no reason. Maybe he'll overreact at somethings and such. I don't think he'll hit a normal person, but I certainly think that he'll yell at anybody, whether it's his friends or not without hesitation.

[jerky123]

Do you think we'll see evil Peter? If so, how? Moody evil? Violent evil? General d**khead evil?
All of the above?
I think we will only see moody-evil Peter, even though he might go overboard and threaten people, I dont expect to see the others....
But I can see him going from :woot: to :angry: to :mad: to :cmad:...

[Silver Spider]

Huh? The bad luck powers were never central to Black Cat's premise. She didn't even get them until several years after her creation. Hardly central to her character.
Okay, I don't really want to get caught in this big debate, but didn't Black Cat always try to make it seem like she had bad luck powers? It's just she used tricks to make it look like that, in her original appearences.

[Syncos]

I'm dying to hear your explanation for this one. I really hope you're not saying neither of them have any cat like traits, because if you are, you're really killing your arguement here.

Giving a Cat burglar a cat motif is a literary pun. Playing on the catlike scheming and stealthy nature of the crime. It's not original to make a play on words like that. of course they both have catlike qualities. it doesn't make Black Cat a catwoman knockoff to be based off of the same pun.

[Joker]

Okay, I don't really want to get caught in this big debate, but didn't Black Cat always try to make it seem like she had bad luck powers? It's just she used tricks to make it look like that, in her original appearences.

According to www.spiderfan.org which is a much more reliable site than Wikipedia for Spidey info:

While Peter was away in Secret Wars, Felicia turned to Kingpin, and made a pact with him in return for his scientists giving her super-powers. She kept the secret from Peter for quite some time. What she didn't realise was that her newly-gained genuine 'bad luck' power was infectious, and that it was permanently jinxing Spider-Man.

Giving a Cat burglar a cat motif is a literary pun. Playing on the catlike scheming and stealthy nature of the crime. It's not original to make a play on words like that. of course they both have catlike qualities. it doesn't make Black Cat a catwoman knockoff to be based off of the same pun.

Ok, I'm going to end this debate here: Tell me this honestly, when the writers were creating Black Cat, and evolving the character, they made her sleek, sexy, cat like, and agile cat like fighter, a cat burglar, have a secret identity, they decided to make her sexually attracted to the hero and try to seduce him and tease him and fall for him, and had her switch between the good side and the bad, do you really believe that they conjured up all this from their own ideas. That none of this came from Catwoman?

I mean seriously, she shares so many traits with Catwoman that it's nearly spelled out in 50 foot high letters.

[Wobblebobble]

There's lots of athletic, sexy, cat themed characters? Like who?

Depending on your preferences, some people may say that of Catman, Wildcat, Black Panther, Cheetah. Not so many in Marvel. Also I just said lots of athletic, sexy characters AND lots of cat themed characters, some overlap shouldn't be unexpected.

Huh? The bad luck powers were never central to Black Cat's premise. She didn't even get them until several years after her creation. Hardly central to her character.

Before the powers, she used booby traps and tricks. It was always a central part of the character, hence the name "Black Cat" as in unlucky. Powers just changed the source to a supernatural basis.


His circumstances are different. His ideals and goals are not.

Fair enough, it was just an idea.

I've just about given up on Syncos. At least you remained respectful.

I don't really like arguing, so I do try to see both sides if possible. We just disagree about a few things which don't matter (really) and to which there is no definite answer. What's to get disrespectful about?

Hell I don't even like Black Cat that much.

[Silver Spider]

.Before the powers, she used booby traps and tricks. It was always a central part of the character, hence the name "Black Cat" as in unlucky. Powers just changed the source to a supernatural basis.
This is what I was saying.

Okay, personally I don't like this debate taking over the board. Can you guys like take it to the PMs, or something?:o