Conservatives are Happier than Liberals

[SuBe]

Why Conservatives Are Happier Than Liberals

Wednesday, May 07, 2008
By Jeanna Bryner


Individuals with conservative ideologies are happier than liberal-leaners, and new research pinpoints the reason: Conservatives rationalize social and economic inequalities.

Regardless of marital status, income or church attendance, right-wing individuals reported greater life satisfaction and well-being than left-wingers (http://www.livescience.com/health/080310-liberal-seniors.html), the new study found.
Conservatives also scored highest on measures of rationalization, which gauge a person's tendency to justify, or explain away, inequalities.
The rationalization measure included statements such as: "It is not really that big a problem if some people have more of a chance in life than others," and "This country would be better off if we worried less about how equal people are."

To justify economic inequalities, a person could support the idea of meritocracy, in which people supposedly move up their economic status in society (http://www.livescience.com/health/071220-cultural-elite.html) based on hard work and good performance (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354424,00.html#).



In that way, one's social class attainment, whether upper, middle or lower, would be perceived as totally fair and justified.
If your beliefs don't justify gaps in status, you could be left frustrated and disheartened, according to the researchers, Jaime Napier and John Jost of New York (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354424,00.html#) University. They conducted both a U.S.-centric survey and a more internationally focused one to arrive at the findings.
"Our research suggests that inequality takes a greater psychological toll on liberals than on conservatives," the researchers write in the June issue of the journal Psychological Science, "apparently because liberals lack ideological rationalizations that would help them frame inequality in a positive (or at least neutral) light."
The results support and further explain a Pew Research Center survey (http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/060315_happiness_pew.html) from 2006, in which 47 percent of conservative Republicans in the U.S. described themselves as "very happy," while only 28 percent of liberal Democrats indicated such cheer.
The same rationalizing phenomena could apply to personal situations as well.
"There is no reason to think that the effects we have identified here are unique to economic forms of inequality," the researchers write. "Research suggests that highly egalitarian women are less happy in their marriages compared with their more traditional counterparts, apparently because they are more troubled by disparities in domestic labor."
The current study was funded by the National Science Foundation.
Copyright © 2008 Imaginova Corp.

Pretty Interesting.

[Excel]

What about those in the middle??

[SuBe]

They are just "Meh".

[rdh007]

I would think so. "Rationalizing" or as we in the real world call it, "Not Caring About" the problems we have and have created would be a wonderful way to live.

[Superhobo]

:up:

[Marx]

When your party has pretty much run the country unchecked for the last seven years, yeah, I would imagine you would be happier than your left-leaning counterparts.

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/icon13.gif

[Franklin Richards]

That's like saying "Liberals are smarter than Conservatives."


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Darkdd]

Ignorance is bliss.

[Handsome Rob]

I would think so. "Rationalizing" or as we in the real world call it, "Not Caring About" the problems we have and have created would be a wonderful way to live.

There's a difference between being happy while still caring about the problems of the world and allowing oneself to be weighed down by those same problems, especially when you can't effectively solve them. It's called maturity.

[Handsome Rob]

When your party has pretty much run the country unchecked for the last seven years, yeah, I would imagine you would be happier than your left-leaning counterparts.

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/icon13.gif

Actually, I wonder if they considered that in their study. It's definitely a potential control issue.

[rdh007]

There's a difference between being happy while still caring about the problems of the world and allowing oneself to be weighed down by those same problems, especially when you can't effectively solve them. It's called maturity.
^
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee144/rdh007/1164405050299.jpg

[The Senator]

I guess it's easier to be happy when you don't acknowledge all the people you've helped get killed in the past five years and all the people you've helped oppress over an even longer time period :huh:

[Handsome Rob]

^
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee144/rdh007/1164405050299.jpg

Nah . . . it's just what real grown-ups realize. Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% of how you choose to deal with it. We can both help the poor, but if you want to waste your time wringing your hands over the "injustice" in the world, go ahead. I've decided that there are better and more joyful things to focus on.

[Handsome Rob]

I guess it's easier to be happy when you don't acknowledge all the people you've helped get killed in the past five years and all the people you've helped oppress over an even longer time period :huh:

More generalities. I could paint with the same broad brush and say that you're less happy because of unacknowledged guilt over the millions of unborn babies your policies have allowed to be slaughtered and of the problems you've created in the inner cities by keeping minorities on the "government plantation."

But, I think we'd both be wrong.

[The Senator]

More generalities. I could paint with the same broad brush and say that you're less happy because of unacknowledged guilt over the millions of unborn babies your policies have allowed to be slaughtered and of the problems you've created in the inner cities by keeping minorities on the "government plantation."

But, I think we'd both be wrong.

Well it was designed to be a jestful one-liner, but if we want to get into more broad brush strokes, we certainly can...

[The Senator]

Nah . . . it's just what real grown-ups realize. Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% of how you choose to deal with it. We can both help the poor, but if you want to waste your time wringing your hands over the "injustice" in the world, go ahead. I've decided that there are better and more joyful things to focus on.

Again, it's easier for people like you because you probably haven't been on the receiving ends of many of these injustices.

[Handsome Rob]

Well it was designed to be a jestful one-liner, but if we want to get into more broad brush strokes, we certainly can...

You need to add a :oldrazz: or :woot: or something like that on the end. I thought you were being serious. My internet "read" is poor, at best. :o

[SuperT]

Well of course conservatives are happier then libs right now. They've head their big conservative leader in power for the past eight freakin years.

That's like a really "duh" statement.

[The Senator]

You need to add a :oldrazz: or :woot: or something like that on the end. I thought you were being serious. My internet "read" is poor, at best. :o

Ah, well, it's no problem. I usually don't speak in generalizations like most people do and I'm usually quick to correct myself if it appears that way. I usually type through my posts so fast I forget to add a 'winking' smiley face of some sort.

[SentinelMind]

LOL...I swear I literally came to superherohype today with the ingrained in my mind objective of posting this EXACT thread topic....to rub it in the face of the liberals. You stole my dream SuBe!!!!! :grin:


I guess I'll have to settle with this....Republicans have happier SEX LIVES than Democrats......

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/News/story?id=180291




But yeah, the overall gist of SuBe's posted article makes sense. Liberals are always worryied about changing the world, they tend to lack an understanding how the world works, how economies work...and lack basic understanding of human nature. They then get discouraged when their policies produce undesirable results or their policies don't even get implemented. They also worry about making everything equal when they don't realize that certain things aren't equal FOR A REASON.....and its better to have consistency, stability where you put the effort in changing your life is better than relying on government to solve all your problems.

I read a lot of books by Thomas Sowell (Vision of the Anointed which puts the ultimate smackdown on liberal political ideology)...it helped cement my outlook on life and put lot of my past experiences dealing with money, finance, liberal friends, conservative friends in perspective and it makes intrinsic and logical sense. I've found myself much happier moving more center right in lot of issues then when I was more left-of-center or liberal on wide range of issues.

[Matt]

To an extent, I agree with Handsome Rob. Liberals do tend to be more...I dunno, empathetic than conservatives...almost empathetic to a fault. It is great to care, and be able to see a problems, but you can't always act like the weight of the world is on your shoulders either, and I do find that liberals tend to do that.

[Handsome Rob]

Again, it's easier for people like you because you probably haven't been on the receiving ends of many of these injustices.

I misread.

[Marx]

Actually, I wonder if they considered that in their study. It's definitely a potential control issue.

I wonder...


Well of course conservatives are happier then libs right now. They've head their big conservative leader in power for the past eight freakin years.

That's like a really "duh" statement.

That was my reaction. It's the same thing as saying that all of the Republicans were largely miserable during the 90's.

I wonder why...hmm. :whatever:

[SentinelMind]

Well of course conservatives are happier then libs right now. They've head their big conservative leader in power for the past eight freakin years.

That's like a really "duh" statement.


Nope,...conservatives are happier than liberals even when a Democrat is in White House....

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/conservatives-are-happier-than-liberals-discuss/

I find it intriguing liberals define happiness by the agenda and occupation of a federal government...:o

[Marx]

Nope,...conservatives are happier than liberals even when a Democrat is in White House....

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/conservatives-are-happier-than-liberals-discuss/

I find it intriguing liberals define happiness by the agenda and occupation of a federal government...:o

If that is true, I could go as far to say that it's because Conservatives are really only concerned with themselves and no one else.

[The Senator]

LOL...I swear I literally came to superherohype today with the ingrained in my mind objective of posting this EXACT thread topic....to rub it in the face of the liberals. You stole my dream SuBe!!!!! :grin:


I guess I'll have to settle with this....Republicans have happier SEX LIVES than Democrats......

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/News/story?id=180291




But yeah, the overall gist of SuBe's posted article makes sense. Liberals are always worryied about changing the world, they tend to lack an understanding how the world works, how economies work...and lack basic understanding of human nature. They then get discouraged when their policies produce undesirable results or their policies don't even get implemented. They also worry about making everything equal when they don't realize that certain things aren't equal FOR A REASON.....and its better to have consistency, stability where you put the effort in changing your life is better than relying on government to solve all your problems.

I read a lot of books by Thomas Sowell (Vision of the Anointed which puts the ultimate smackdown on liberal political ideology)...it helped cement my outlook on life and put lot of my past experiences dealing with money, finance, liberal friends, conservative friends in perspective and it makes intrinsic and logical sense. I've found myself much happier moving more center right in lot of issues then when I was more left-of-center or liberal on wide range of issues.

You generalize thoroughly.

I'm quite happy right now with my life. The only exception I can really think of is the fact that I can't get married to my boyfriend in the state I want to live in because the Christian right passed a referendum banning gay marriage there. I have a pretty good grasp on my finances, I will have a decent career lined up in a few years, and I certainly don't want everything to be equal in the socialist sense. I keep my politics out of my personal life and I think that's important to realize.

At the same time, I understand why many liberals are angry and bitter. Maybe it's because they recently lost their house. Maybe it's because they can't afford college. Maybe they've lost a loved one in an endless war they thought never should have been waged in the first place. I don't know if their political beliefs account for the reasons why they are unhappy. Maybe they have a personal connection to an ongoing crisis... the poll didn't really say whether the respondents were unhappy because of applied political beliefs or because of external circumstances... so I have to question the accuracy, as well as the partisan nature, of this poll...

[Handsome Rob]

Well, I honestly think it would be foolish to believe that either party as a general rule does not care about the problems of the world. I can't argue against the desire to help people, even as I vehemently disagree with how the left believes it should be done. But, I honestly do see a problem when people get themselves over-involved in broad societal problems to the point it gets them all depressed--especially when they can't really effect a solution.

[SentinelMind]

You have to generalize whenever you produce a model about data or observations. Nonetheless, I still stand by most of what I said.

The polls did not suggest that their voting patterns (or if they do vote, or their party affiliation) had anything to do with their happiness. Interesting how liberals think in terms of government, party affiliation in defining this happiness. The studies were testing how one's self-identification as a liberal or conservative correlated with their self-identification of happiness. Yes, it most likely is the case that other external circumstances that causes the unhappiness, not the occupant in the White House. I think that one's outlook on life, value system will have an impact on how happy you are more than whether one votes for some policy A or B.

[Marx]

You have to generalize whenever you produce a model about data or observations. Nonetheless, I still stand by most of what I said.

The polls did not suggest that their voting patterns (or if they do vote, or their party affiliation) had anything to do with their happiness. Interesting how liberals think in terms of government, party affiliation in defining this happiness. The studies were testing how one's self-identification as a liberal or conservative correlated with their self-identification of happiness. Yes, it most likely is the case that other external circumstances that causes the unhappiness, not the occupant in the White House. I think that one's outlook on life, value system will have an impact on how happy you are more than whether one votes for some policy A or B.

But you have to admit that when you have a President whom you fully support, and who represents your views, and those views are reflected into law, you don't have a whole lot to complain about.

[SentinelMind]

If that is true, I could go as far to say that it's because Conservatives are really only concerned with themselves and no one else.

and you could still be wrong.....as conservatives are more charitable than liberals....even in same income brackets....

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/204/story_20419_1.html

[SuBe]

I'm very happy with where I am at in life, but I also know I did everything to get myself here and wasn't waiting for a hand out. Maybe that's why More liberals were unhappy, the unhappy ones don't know how to work for their own merits instead of waiting to be given things. If you wait for something, you might not ever get it, if you work for it, it is guarenteed to get you closer to what you desire.

[Marx]

and you could still be wrong.....as conservatives are more charitable than liberals....even in same income brackets....

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/204/story_20419_1.html

What you are saying is debatable, just like anything else. I said that I could go there, but I chose not to. I'm not about to set off that fire storm.

[Marx]

I'm very happy with where I am at in life, but I also know I did everything to get myself here and wasn't waiting for a hand out. Maybe that's why More liberals were unhappy, the unhappy ones don't know how to work for their own merits instead of waiting to be given things. If you wait for something, you might not ever get it, if you work for it, it is guarenteed to get you closer to what you desire.

Wow...this thread is quickly turning into nothing but a bunch of partisan generalizations.





Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the political HATE thread.

[SentinelMind]

What you are saying is debatable, just like anything else. I said that I could go there, but I chose not to. I'm not about to set off that fire storm.

oh, I know you didn't want to make and stand by that claim and instead suggest that you "could" :cwink: make that claim, which is why I bolded "could." If you had chosen to make that claim you typed ,.....the one you were "liberally":oldrazz: throwing around....but I knew you weren't making such an absurd claim. you're smarter than that. :cwink:

Wow...this thread is quickly turning into nothing but a bunch of partisan generalizations.

maybe he should have put a "could" in front of the those dreaded hateful statements such as suggesting that working hard and achieving success is the key to happiness.

[Marx]

oh, I know you didn't want to make and stand by that claim and instead suggest that you "could" :cwink: make that claim, which is why I bolded "could." If you had chosen to make that claim you typed ,.....the one you were "liberally":oldrazz: throwing around....but I knew you weren't making such an absurd claim. you're smarter than that. :cwink:


I usually try to stay middle of the road in politics. Obviously there are some things that I am liberal on, but there are also things that I am quite conservative on.

So yeah. That's alot of smiley's you got there in that message. :hehe:


maybe he should have put a "could" in front of the those dreaded hateful statements such as suggesting that working hard and achieving success is the key to happiness.

That would have sounded better than saying "unhappy liberals are waiting for handouts and don't know how to work to better themselves."

[Arc-Light]

Nah . . . it's just what real grown-ups realize. Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% of how you choose to deal with it. We can both help the poor, but if you want to waste your time wringing your hands over the "injustice" in the world, go ahead. I've decided that there are better and more joyful things to focus on.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd45/INBuckeye/epicfailqi1ig2.gif

[Arc-Light]

LOL...I swear I literally came to superherohype today with the ingrained in my mind objective of posting this EXACT thread topic....to rub it in the face of the liberals. You stole my dream SuBe!!!!! :grin:


I guess I'll have to settle with this....Republicans have happier SEX LIVES than Democrats......

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/News/story?id=180291




But yeah, the overall gist of SuBe's posted article makes sense. Liberals are always worryied about changing the world, they tend to lack an understanding how the world works, how economies work...and lack basic understanding of human nature. They then get discouraged when their policies produce undesirable results or their policies don't even get implemented. They also worry about making everything equal when they don't realize that certain things aren't equal FOR A REASON.....and its better to have consistency, stability where you put the effort in changing your life is better than relying on government to solve all your problems.

I read a lot of books by Thomas Sowell (Vision of the Anointed which puts the ultimate smackdown on liberal political ideology)...it helped cement my outlook on life and put lot of my past experiences dealing with money, finance, liberal friends, conservative friends in perspective and it makes intrinsic and logical sense. I've found myself much happier moving more center right in lot of issues then when I was more left-of-center or liberal on wide range of issues.


You need to try harder.....

[SentinelMind]

^nope, I don't have to if you can't put together any cohesive argument.

[Arc-Light]

Wow...this thread is quickly turning into nothing but a bunch of partisan generalizations.





Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the political HATE thread.

It is obvious........

[Arc-Light]

^nope, I don't have to if you can't put together any cohesive argument.

Yes you have to..........

[Handsome Rob]

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd45/INBuckeye/epicfailqi1ig2.gif

Right . . . so could you maybe actually offer any substantive criticism of what I said? Or, would you rather hide behind an admittedly humorous pic?

[Arc-Light]

Right . . . so could you maybe actually offer any substantive criticism of what I said? Or, would you rather hide behind an admittedly humorous pic?

If you can't see it.....then i can't help you.

[Marx]

If I were a betting man...I would have to say that the "LOCK " countdown on this thread has begun.

10...

9...

8...

7...

[SentinelMind]

Yes you have to..........

ok, if I must help mods find trolls like you...:whatever:

[SuBe]

This has nothing to do with Hate. This is about Political Ideologies. I don't hate many people, and no one on the Hype. The word "Hate" tends to be thrown around too much when someone doesn't have a leg to stand on in a discussion. You CAN talk in Generalities, it doesn't hurt anything.

Conservatives tend to place a higher emphisis on the Individual, Liberals tend to place a higher emphisis on the Group. I don't see why we can't have an honest dialouge on the differences.

Oh, and stop using the word "hate" if you can't back up why.

[Arc-Light]

ok, if I must help mods find trolls like you...:whatever:

Hmmm i am a troll....because:

1) You cant/don't understand what i say

2) Don't like the way i say it

3) You can be to sensitive

4) all of the above

Of course this proves this article is BS, the conservatives are a negative bunch.

[The Senator]

I think everyone needs to take a giant step back. The liberals who are trying to make an argument are failing miserably. You're only making yourselves seem desperate and you really aren't doing anything to refute the idea that liberals are miserable. Meanwhile, the conservatives seem a bit general in some of their claims.

This isn't really turning into a debate, but rather a giant finger pointing contest. Instead of making generalizations and accusing the other side of hate, can we actually start debating this?

[Marx]

This has nothing to do with Hate. This is about Political Ideologies. I don't hate many people, and no one on the Hype. The word "Hate" tends to be thrown around too much when someone doesn't have a leg to stand on in a discussion. You CAN talk in Generalities, it doesn't hurt anything.

Conservatives tend to place a higher emphisis on the Individual, Liberals tend to place a higher emphisis on the Group. I don't see why we can't have an honest dialouge on the differences.

Oh, and stop using the word "hate" if you can't back up why.

This thread baits people into insults and accusations. It's one thing to discuss political ideology respectfully and intelligently, it's quite another to just fling ridiculous generalizations. (I'm not saying that you are doing it, I'm saying that it is taking place, on BOTH sides of the topic.)

[rdh007]

Nah . . . it's just what real grown-ups realize. Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% of how you choose to deal with it. We can both help the poor, but if you want to waste your time wringing your hands over the "injustice" in the world, go ahead. I've decided that there are better and more joyful things to focus on.

Your condescending nature makes me wonder why you would call yourself Handsome, it just seems so ugly.

As for what you said and not how you said it, this seems to be the conservative line from conservative types that I know. There's nothing we can do so let's do nothing. I can't see it that way.

[rdh007]

I'm very happy with where I am at in life, but I also know I did everything to get myself here and wasn't waiting for a hand out. Maybe that's why More liberals were unhappy, the unhappy ones don't know how to work for their own merits instead of waiting to be given things. If you wait for something, you might not ever get it, if you work for it, it is guarenteed to get you closer to what you desire.

I think that's a huge part of it. All the white male conservatives I know (I am a white male myself) seem to believe that they've earned everything in life. They also seem so very unquestioning of what is black and what is white that their simplistic nature makes them content. The world is certainly easier to navigate when one never questions, when one hardly ever thinks.

[SuBe]

This thread baits people into insults and accusations. It's one thing to discuss political ideology respectfully and intelligently, it's quite another to to just fling ridiculous generalizations. (I'm not saying that you are doing it, I'm saying that it is taking place, on BOTH sides of the topic.)
Fair enough. I really would like an honest debate on WHY you believe what you believe, and the debate should be as pressuasive (sp?) as possible. I personally find it difficult to think like a liberal, but I'm sure you have good reasons why you think the way you do. (Not talking about TheMarx, just Liberals in general). Let's discuss the differences in ideology, not people.

[Arc-Light]

Fair enough. I really would like an honest debate on WHY you believe what you believe, and the debate should be as pressuasive (sp?) as possible. I personally find it difficult to think like a liberal, but I'm sure you have good reasons why you think the way you do. (Not talking about TheMarx, just Liberals in general). Let's discuss the differences in ideology, not people.

And that is where the problem lies with most conservatives..........

[The Senator]

And that is where the problem lies with most conservatives..........

Well, can you think like a conservative? I think that's a problem everyone on both ends have. I rarely think like a right-wing conservative, and many conservatives rarely think like left-wing liberals. But why should they have to, to be honest? They have their own convictions and their own beliefs. They shouldn't have to see the other side the way they see it.

[Superhobo]

and you could still be wrong.....as conservatives are more charitable than liberals....even in same income brackets....

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/204/story_20419_1.html


Well, even disregarding the fact that your story comes from a site called Beliefnet, generally it's been found that nonreligious types have, on the whole, been more charitable than any staunchly religious sect. Now, I'm generalizing, sure, but I'm almost certain (and I'm probably wrong) that the majority of said nonreligious types aren't Conservative.

:o

[The Senator]

Fair enough. I really would like an honest debate on WHY you believe what you believe, and the debate should be as pressuasive (sp?) as possible. I personally find it difficult to think like a liberal, but I'm sure you have good reasons why you think the way you do. (Not talking about TheMarx, just Liberals in general). Let's discuss the differences in ideology, not people.

I am very liberal on social issues, and pretty conservative on economic issues. Throughout my life, I have been the subject of several hot-button issues. Most prominently, I am a homosexual. I have witnessed discrimination towards gays, lesbians and transgendered individuals and being a part of that community, I understand how difficult it is to be misconceived by those who are opposed to the LGBT community. Most of us don't want people to change their beliefs. I don't care if some folks are personally opposed to gay marriage or gay adoption. I understand why they are opposed to those issues, and I respectfully disagree with their opinions as long as they are within reason. However, our argument is, we simply want to live our lives, and that typically includes prospects for marriage and the ability to raise a family-- which for two men (at least) includes adoption.

I think gay marriage should be a decision left up to the church, not to the federal government. I support the separation of church and state; however, I recognize that many politicians oppose gay marriage on religious principles. And while that's fine, I feel the need to point out that there are faiths-- Christian faiths, too-- which have decided to recognize gay marriage. So I am opposed to the constant attempts by this president and the past congress to write discrimination into the constitution by denying gay men and women the ability to marry.

My family has also been on the receiving end of welfare, and because we were in a dire financial crunch and were forced to live in rather poor communities, I know families who have been on welfare. Most of these people are not simply living on the government's expense. My mother wasn't. She had no choice-- my father was getting his master's degree, and in New York, he wasn't allowed to teach without the degree in his hand. So she relied on welfare, and he qualified for unemployment under New York state law. But my father worked for his degree, received it, and we were off welfare within a two year period.

As for the other people I knew, many were forced to float between jobs. Many of them didn't have high school degrees, and since, they've got their GED, or they've received a steady job. We also lived in an industrial area which started to cut jobs... Kodak was the prime employer in my area, and I saw many families lose jobs because the company was falling apart at the turn of the century... and many of them had to rely on unemployment or some other welfare benefits between jobs. So I don't support cutting welfare benefits. I think they are important and crucial. I do, however, think that many people should have to work for their welfare, or show proof that they are actively seeking employment to receive such benefits. I support a public works program, and I also think it would be an excellent way to restore some of the deteriorating infrastructure in this country.

Now, I'm also a college student. And I have accrued a huge amount of debt in a short amount of time, which I knew I would get into and I'm not all that worried about. But I think the federal government should do more to aid good students in their quest for a high quality education. I have a pretty high GPA, I had one in high school as well... yet I didn't receive much aid from the federal government, despite the fact that my parents couldn't afford to pay for my education out of pocket. And because we lived in a crappy part of the country, I didn't have many employment opportunities in high school, so saving for my education was almost out of the question. I did have some money, but none of it has gone towards my education because it's really a minuscule amount.

As for health care... I think people should be able to make their own decisions on that one, but I do think the government should open Medicaid up to allow folks to buy into the system. Those who are financially able should be able to pay a certain amount for coverage under that system. And I think the government should help people find the best coverage for them, via health care markets, as John Edwards proposed during his campaign.

With Social Security, I support its gradual privatization. There's no way we'll be able to fund everyone's retirement in fifty years or less. So why not force the wealthiest 25% of Americans to search for a private option? There are cut offs which would have to be enforced, obviously, but I think that's the best way to solve the problem rather than to dip into our already growing and expanding deficit.

And I support affirmative action, I think diversity is needed in many schools and I feel that as long as the applicants are qualified (which they usually are), then there's no immediate need to end the practice. I support increasing diversity in city and suburban schools. I came from a school with few minorities, and I think a larger minority population in the school community would have at least served to educate some of the white, redneck idiots who felt it necessary to use the n-word or other racial epithets on a regular basis.

As for foreign policy and defense, I tend to be more conservative. I feel Israel has just as much a right to exist as Palestine does, and I support the creation of a Palestinian state, but I do not think the Israelis have an obligation to see that such a state is created. I support pre-emptive war when its justified and there's probable cause, and I do not think that the war in Iraq was justified at all. The removal of Saddam Hussein was justified, but not the complete annihilation of that country's resources and infrastructure. We need to keep a watchful eye on Iran, and if there is any indication that they will act in an aggressive manner towards any nation, particularly Israel, then the United States should send troops to combat the Iranian guard.

I do not support the PATRIOT Act, I do not support warrantless wiretapping, and I do not support waterboarding because I believe all three violate certain civil liberties and amendments guaranteed in the Constitution. We have the right to privacy and I feel the PATRIOT Act and warrantless wiretapping violate that right, while waterboarding violates the eighth amendment and terms we signed on to in the Geneva Convention.

There are other beliefs I have, but those are the most crucial at this point.

[SentinelMind]

Well, even disregarding the fact that your story comes from a site called Beliefnet, generally it's been found that nonreligious types have, on the whole, been more charitable than any staunchly religious sect. Now, I'm generalizing, sure, but I'm almost certain (and I'm probably wrong) that the majority of said nonreligious types aren't Conservative.

:o

And you certainly have a link to back up this claim? Or is just the way you hope things are?

[SentinelMind]

Hmmm i am a troll....because:

1) You cant/don't understand what i say

you haven't made one point in this entire thread. so yeah, you're a troll.


2) Don't like the way i say it

I don't like mindless trollish behavior.

3) You can be to sensitive

does your top 4 reasons to my one observation say so, huh? :whatever:

4) of the above

Of course this proves this article is BS, the conservatives are a negative bunch.

because it contradicts your emotional beliefs. gotcha.

[rdh007]

Well, can you think like a conservative? I think that's a problem everyone on both ends have. I rarely think like a right-wing conservative, and many conservatives rarely think like left-wing liberals. But why should they have to, to be honest? They have their own convictions and their own beliefs. They shouldn't have to see the other side the way they see it.
If we want to work together and accomplish things, then, yes we do. Of course, that's more for the people in power than Joe Citizen.

[SentinelMind]

Your condescending nature makes me wonder why you would call yourself Handsome, it just seems so ugly.

As for what you said and not how you said it, this seems to be the conservative line from conservative types that I know. There's nothing we can do so let's do nothing. I can't see it that way.

Typically conservatives or libertarians view the world as follows: its a hard world out there, but if you work hard, you can succeed. I won't discuss life outside the United States, but if you live here you can obtain happiness in time. The turtoise can win the race.

It's not that we should never solve problems, but that the best way to solve a problem is through self-reliance, not coercing others to give up their time, effort, resources for others. We all have our limits and the best way to use our own personal talents and strengths is helping solve problems within our own sphere of influence, such as community or charities that you trust or value... not by creating some centralized structure that sets out to micromanage every thing else. As George Will said it, liberals put forward these vast radical policy changes, but they ignore the Law of Unintended Consequences, which is you change something here, it creates an undesirable change over there...and you do something to solve that problem, and the cycle continues. The best way to create happiness in your own life is worrying about your own problems and tending to them at a proper pace, not acting jealous of that rich, white prep kid over there.

[Handsome Rob]

Your condescending nature makes me wonder why you would call yourself Handsome, it just seems so ugly.

As for what you said and not how you said it, this seems to be the conservative line from conservative types that I know. There's nothing we can do so let's do nothing. I can't see it that way.

Using "grown-ups" was condescending and inappropriate . . . I apologize.

But, in my example, I said, "We can both help the poor." People need to realize that there are always going to be poor people in the world. There will always be sick people. There will always be political/religious/societal oppression going on somewhere in the globe. Just because someone is not sad or depressed about it, however, doesn't mean that they don't care. Nor does it mean that they don't do "their part" to help those in need. And, I do believe that learning to not let the problems of the world you can't solve weigh you down is one aspect of maturity. I won't back down on that (but don't believe I've "mastered" it, either).

[Handsome Rob]

If you can't see it.....then i can't help you.

Come on . . . use words. Give it the old college try. :up:

[rdh007]

Using "grown-ups" was condescending and inappropriate . . . I apologize.

But, in my example, I said, "We can both help the poor." People need to realize that there are always going to be poor people in the world. There will always be sick people. There will always be political/religious/societal oppression going on somewhere in the globe. Just because someone is not sad or depressed about it, however, doesn't mean that they don't care. Nor does it mean that they don't do "their part" to help those in need. And, I do believe that learning to not let the problems of the world you can't solve weigh you down is one aspect of maturity. I won't back down on that (but don't believe I've "mastered" it, either).

Thanks for the apology.

I don't personally get depressed over the amount of poor people and I personally understand there will always be those people around. For instance, welfare reform in the 90's I was okay with, but NAFTA I'm not. But we're talking about generalities here (for better or worse), and as Matt said, liberals are probably empathetic to a fault. There really are bleeding hearts in the left leaners of our country, and I can understand where they're coming from, but I don't see it. For me, anyway, I consider myself a moderate leftist because I simply want government to do what it says it's going to do. If we're going to have schools, then let's do it right. If we're going to have roads, then let's do it right. The problem is, that costs money. My problem with many people who vote Republican is that they live in a land of daisies and rainbows where they can have something for nothing.

This is about general happiness, so I think that people that aren't trying to change things (and are therefore conservative) should be pretty happy with the status quo, that is perfectly logical. Though we're going to have to agree to disagree on how important not letting things drag you down is to being considered mature.

[C.F. Kane]

Conservatives are Happier than Liberals

So? Drunk men are happier than sober ones. Dogs are happier than philosophers.

[SuBe]

So? Drunk men are happier than sober ones. Dogs are happier than philosophers.
Did you just call Conservatives a bunch of Drunk men and Dogs? Not Nice.

[Humpty Dumpty]

I'm very happy with where I am at in life, but I also know I did everything to get myself here and wasn't waiting for a hand out. Maybe that's why More liberals were unhappy, the unhappy ones don't know how to work for their own merits instead of waiting to be given things. If you wait for something, you might not ever get it, if you work for it, it is guarenteed to get you closer to what you desire.

Conservatives tend to place a higher emphisis on the Individual, Liberals tend to place a higher emphisis on the Group. I don't see why we can't have an honest dialouge on the differences.
Conservatives see nothing wrong in the individual being subsumed into tyrannical private hierarchies and being treated in them as economic agents no different than mere tools serving the interests of their corporate masters. People on the left believe in everyone participating in the economy democratically. This notion is at the root of why the left opposes inequality. It has nothing to do with resenting people who worked hard to get where they are. If a fascist dictator worked hard to get where he was, does that give him the right to be a dictator, or is it that you would be categorically opposed to the idea of dictators because of your moral convictions?

[zenile]

So the term "Angry White Male" was just a myth?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_white_male

[SuBe]

Conservatives see nothing wrong in the individual being subsumed into tyrannical private hierarchies and being treated in them as economic agents no different than mere tools serving the interests of their corporate masters. People on the left believe in everyone participating in the economy democratically. This notion is at the root of why the left opposes inequality. It has nothing to do with resenting people who worked hard to get where they are. If a fascist dictator worked hard to get where he was, does that give him the right to be a dictator, or is it that you would be categorically opposed to the idea of dictators because of your moral convictions?
Have you ever heard of the Dollar Vote? That is as Democratic as our Economy needs to be. It's called Free Market, you are free to spend your money and Make Decisions, even if those decision could lead to Financial Loss. Your Philosophical Skills are no Match for my Free Market Skills!

You seem to falsely believe in this "Eloi" Class of people and we are all to "Morlocks" in their great Game of Oppression. Wake up, Corporations are not Slave Drivers of the Masses, you do not seem to understand your place is the lubrication of the economy. You can't make the machine work with hope. You spend money on goods and services you desire, the Government allows you to keep the money you earn to spend how you see fit. No one is Making you spend your money on what you want. That is Freedom. Bondage is the theft of your Earning to fuel programs you don't desire. Bondage is you being a statisic in a Government Record, Bondage is the Ignorance of the Masses to believe that Goverment has the Answers. The Experiment you seem to be fond of failed.

[Matt]

Okay, this thread seems to be getting awfully heated, so I'm just going to go ahead and ask everyone to take it down a notch, please.

Thank you.

[Humpty Dumpty]

Have you ever heard of the Dollar Vote? That is as Democratic as our Economy needs to be. It's called Free Market, you are free to spend your money and Make Decisions, even if those decision could lead to Financial Loss. Your Philosophical Skills are no Match for my Free Market Skills!

You seem to falsely believe in this "Eloi" Class of people and we are all to "Morlocks" in their great Game of Oppression. Wake up, Corporations are not Slave Drivers of the Masses, you do not seem to understand your place is the lubrication of the economy. You can't make the machine work with hope. You spend money on goods and services you desire, the Government allows you to keep the money you earn to spend how you see fit. No one is Making you spend your money on what you want. That is Freedom. Bondage is the theft of your Earning to fuel programs you don't desire. Bondage is you being a statisic in a Government Record, Bondage is the Ignorance of the Masses to believe that Goverment has the Answers. The Experiment you seem to be fond of failed.
If you’re saying that the market is a democracy in the sense that we vote with our dollars, then why is it that some people have billions of votes and others virtually none? You’re not making sense. The people and organizations with billions of votes are going to have the power to control those with very few as the few will be dependent on them for all of life’s necessities. If you think someone can be a free man because their indentured servitude has acquired for them the boon of having a choice between Cheerios and Corn Flakes, then you’re seriously deluding yourself.

[SuBe]

If you’re saying that the market is a democracy in the sense that we vote with our dollars, then why is it that some people have billions of votes and others virtually none? You’re not making sense. The people and organizations with billions of votes are going to have the power to control those with very few as the few will be dependent on them for all of life’s necessities. If you think someone can be a free man because their indentured servitude has acquired for them the boon of having a choice between Cheerios and Corn Flakes, then you’re seriously deluding yourself.
You earn your Dollar Vote by one of three ways, 1. Earning through labor, 2. Earning through Profitable Ideas, 3. Inheritance from someone who followed either 1 or 2. Dollars are spent via Free Choices made by the individual. It's not that difficult to understand, Free Market is a system where you have the Freedom to earn on your labor or ideas. If you work and earn a billion Dollar Votes, good for you, if your Earn just a few thousand, you were free to do so.

[Humpty Dumpty]

You earn your Dollar Vote by one of three ways, 1. Earning through labor, 2. Earning through Profitable Ideas, 3. Inheritance from someone who followed either 1 or 2. Dollars are spent via Free Choices made by the individual. It's not that difficult to understand, Free Market is a system where you have the Freedom to earn on your labor or ideas. If you work and earn a billion Dollar Votes, good for you, if your Earn just a few thousand, you were free to do so.
A democracy means "rule by the people," not "rule by the rich," which would be more accurately described as oligarchy. It's very simple. Markets are not democratic.

[SuBe]

A democracy means "rule by the people," not "rule by the rich," which would be more accurately described as oligarchy. It's very simple. Markets are not democratic.
And it doesn't need to be, it needs to be free, freedom of choice on the Market level. You are FREE to make money and FREE to keep your earnings and FREE to spend it how you wish. If we spread the wealth evenly (as in the Government doing so) that is COMMUNISM. Not exactly desirable.

[Humpty Dumpty]

And it doesn't need to be, it needs to be free, freedom of choice on the Market level. You are FREE to make money and FREE to keep your earnings and FREE to spend it how you wish. If we spread the wealth evenly (as in the Government doing so) that is COMMUNISM. Not exactly desirable.
Ever since when was an oligarchy described as being "free"?

[SuBe]

Dollar Vote doesn't mean actually political vote. Dollar Vote means if that corporation stays afloat or fails, you have a choice with your dollar, or Vote with your dollar whether that happens. For help on this see the below link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_voting

[Humpty Dumpty]

Dollar Vote doesn't mean actually political vote. Dollar Vote means if that corporation stays afloat or fails, you have a choice with your dollar, or Vote with your dollar whether that happens. For help on this see the below link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_voting
You used the "dollar vote" principle to draw an analogy between capitalism and democracy. I have already explained why that doesn't hold up.

[SuBe]

You used the "dollar vote" principle to draw an analogy between capitalism and democracy. I have already explained why that doesn't hold up.
You didn't explain anything other then your opinion. I was stating that if those "evil rich" people are rich it is because they have a marketable trait, whether be it labor, or ideas, they earned their money, it wasn't given to them. Capitalism works. Free Market Works.

[Humpty Dumpty]

You didn't explain anything other then your opinion. I was stating that if those "evil rich" people are rich it is because they have a marketable trait, whether be it labor, or ideas, they earned their money, it wasn't given to them. Capitalism works. Free Market Works.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never called anyone "evil." None of this contradicts the fact that the market system is an oligarchy. Sure, the market works, but for whom?

[SuBe]

Don't put words in my mouth. I never called anyone "evil." None of this contradicts the fact that the market system is an oligarchy. Sure, the market works, but for whom?
And to whom would the opposite work for? Where I can't earn based on my skills?

[rdh007]

One of the concepts we seem to be misunderstanding in this country is that an economy, a market, exists to serve us. Not we it.

Thom Hartmann is so much smarter than me. (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0312-08.htm)

[SuBe]

One of the concepts we seem to be misunderstanding in this country is that an economy, a market, exists to serve us. Not we it.

Thom Hartmann is so much smarter than me. (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0312-08.htm)
The Market is a 2 fold machine, it cannot exist without both parts. Supply and Demand. One without the other has no purpose.

[Humpty Dumpty]

And to whom would the opposite work for? Where I can't earn based on my skills?
I don't exactly know the specific opposite to which you refer as there have been a number of alternatives to capitalism proposed, but an economy will only work for the people if everyone gets to decide democratically how the economy works. If a small group of people gets a disproportionate say in what the "demand" is and how it is to be "supplied," then the economy is compelling everyone else to defer to those people's judgments and serve their needs and wants.

[SuBe]

I don't exactly know the specific opposite to which you refer as there have been a number of alternatives to capitalism proposed, but an economy will only work for the people if everyone gets to decide democratically how the economy works. If a small group of people gets a disproportionate say in what the "demand" is and how it is to be "supplied," then the economy is compelling everyone else to defer to those people's judgments.
Please go onto further detail. How can an economy be "democratic"? I don't think you understand how a Capitalistic Economy works. "Few" don't decide the "demand". Everyone decides the demand based on how they spend their money.

[Humpty Dumpty]

Please go onto further detail. How can an economy be "democratic"? I don't think you understand how a Capitalistic Economy works. "Few" don't decide the "demand". Everyone decides the demand based on how they spend their money.
Research the Spanish anarchist movement. Another good place to start would be a system developed by radical economist Michael Albert called Participatory Economics.

When 1% of the population possesses 40% of the wealth, they are going to have a disproportionate effect on what the economy determines to be important.

[C.F. Kane]

Did you just call Conservatives a bunch of Drunk men and Dogs? Not Nice.

The line about drunk men comes from Nietzche, responding to the argument that people with religion are happier than people without it. The line about dogs is an adaptation of John Stuart Mill's maxim "better Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied".

I'm simply saying that "happiness" is not a way to assert the superiority of your argument. Simply because group one is "happier" than group two does not make them superior.

[Superhobo]

And you certainly have a link to back up this claim? Or is just the way you hope things are?

Well, the two largest acts of charity in American history, $30 billion and $11 billion respectively, were made by Warren Buffett and Bill Gates, who're both atheists - that's gotta count for something.

Robert W. Wilson, another wealthy nonreligious philanthropist ("We shoulda' nevah' gave you n***az money!'), just gave $22 million away - to a Catholic School!

Here's (pressesc.com/news/80931072007/atheist-doctors-more-likely-care-poor-religious-ones) an interesting link you might like as well.


Ho hum.

[MaskedManJRK]

In a similar study for this, that has the same results, they also concluded that:

So much for right versus left. Mr Brooks also finds that extremists of both sides are happier than moderates. Some 35% of those who call themselves “extremely liberal” say they are very happy, against only 22% of ordinary liberals. For conservatives, the gap is smaller: 48% to 43%. Extremists are happy, Mr Brooks reckons, because they are certain they are right. Alas, this often leads them to conclude that the other side is not merely wrong, but evil. Some two-thirds of America's far left and half of the far right say they dislike not only the other side's ideas, but also the people who hold them.

http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10924082

Just throwing it out there. :o

[DACrowe]

:whatever:

This seems like a dubious "study."

With that said being blissful in your ignorance does not mean you are happier, it means you revel in closing your eyes. I find it is very easy to enjoy life, but stil lwant to better it for everyone. But when you just htink of your own wallet, that's fine.

I mean Scrooge had accepted the world at the beginning of "A Christmas Carol" and was fine with just paying his taxes for the prisons and workhouses, therefore he is happier than those darn progressives trying to help the poor and at the end his bleeding heart will only hurt him. Mr. Potter in "It's A Wonderful Life" was much happier with accepting the world as is and using it to his advantage than George Bailey who tried to save everyone and almost killed himself. I suppose we should model ourselves after Potter who had the wonderful life, then.

:rolleyes:

[BlackLantern]

For the record..I hate "It's a Wonderful Life" I think a good chunk of life is what you make of it and learning to live within your means. You don't "need" that new SUV...you don't "need" to buy new clothes every month...I think as a society we have gotten soft...we think we are entitled to so much without having to do anything whatsoever....We had an all employee meeting at my job today and we had this one obnoxious woman who thinks she knows it all...while she was going on about stress, vacation time, and all that...I looked at her and thought "People like you are part of the reason American companies are outsourcing"....Management is getting tired of people who aren't happy with what they have and think they are entitled to more for no good reason and are going to places where people are grateful to have a paying job.

[DACrowe]

Hey I was just saying, baby. ;)

The only point of contention I had btw with your post was that It's A Wonderful Life is great. To each their own. :p

[Marx]

One of the concepts we seem to be misunderstanding in this country is that an economy, a market, exists to serve us. Not we it.

Thom Hartmann is so much smarter than me. (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0312-08.htm)

Another major problem in this country is the fact that the politicians (OF ALL PARTIES) seem to forget who they work for. They work for the us, not the special interests and lobbyists.

[terry78]

I'd be happy too if I didn't have **** to worry about.

[SuBe]

Another major problem in this country is the fact that the politicians (OF ALL PARTIES) seem to forget who they work for. They work for the us, not the special interests and lobbyists.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had a system in place that would get rid of the Special Interests and Lobbyists? Man, I wish I knew of a way...


FAIRTAX!!!

[Marx]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had a system in place that would get rid of the Special Interests and Lobbyists? Man, I wish I knew of a way...


FAIRTAX!!!

Plug that thread! :funny::cwink:

[Franklin Richards]

I bet Jesus wasn't very happy.


:doom: :doom: :doom:

[BlackLantern]

lobbyists will always exist because companies and industry will always want special treatment and favorable legislation....so no the Fairtax doesn't fix greed and favoritism

[SuBe]

lobbyists will always exist because companies and industry will always want special treatment and favorable legislation....so no the Fairtax doesn't fix greed and favoritism
But, the only power a politician has at his disposile that Corporations want is Favortism with the Tax Code, if you REMOVE that weapon from their arsenal, then they don't have a reason to want that favortism. Make Sense? Remove the Corporate Taxes, relieve yourself of Lobbyists FOR the Corporations.

[SuBe]

Plug that thread! :funny::cwink:
:up:!!!:grin:

[BlackLantern]

But, the only power a politician has at his disposile that Corporations want is Favortism with the Tax Code, if you REMOVE that weapon from their arsenal, then they don't have a reason to want that favortism. Make Sense? Remove the Corporate Taxes, relieve yourself of Lobbyists FOR the Corporations.

I was also referring to things like guidelines regarding waste disposal, eminent domain, and employment regulations....none of which have anything to do with taxes.

[SuBe]

I was also referring to things like guidelines regarding waste disposal, eminent domain, and employment regulations....none of which have anything to do with taxes.
Yes, that is true, but, under the FairTax, the only way they can get re-elected is if they do the job that the People want, not pander with the Tax Code. No more "I'll Tax these people more, so you don't get taxed more", or "Read my Lips, No new Taxes" crap. That's all pandering, so if a politician wants to keep their job, they have to make corporations keep clean and all that, or they CAN get fined. Eminent Domain, again, would be good reason to get rid of the Tax Code Pandering that Politicians do, it'll open more eyes of the Voting Public if that was in the News instead of "Politicians Promise to Lower Taxes on [Insert Group Here]" that we see every week.

[Superhobo]

I bet Jesus wasn't very happy.


:doom: :doom: :doom:


Oh, pish. Sure he was.

http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/bushbeat/archive/images/jesus-with-rifle.jpg

[BlackLantern]

so how does the Fairtax fix illegal labor practices, improper waste disposal, zoning and land regulation? its OK...I can wait.

[Marx]

Yes, that is true, but, under the FairTax, the only way they can get re-elected is if they do the job that the People want, not pander with the Tax Code. No more "I'll Tax these people more, so you don't get taxed more", or "Read my Lips, No new Taxes" crap. That's all pandering, so if a politician wants to keep their job, they have to make corporations keep clean and all that, or they CAN get fined. Eminent Domain, again, would be good reason to get rid of the Tax Code Pandering that Politicians do, it'll open more eyes of the Voting Public if that was in the News instead of "Politicians Promise to Lower Taxes on [Insert Group Here]" that we see every week.

so how does the Fairtax fix illegal labor practices, improper waste disposal, zoning and land regulation? its OK...I can wait.

BL won't back down. Watch it SB. I love a good debate! :yay:

[SuBe]

so how does the Fairtax fix illegal labor practices, improper waste disposal, zoning and land regulation? its OK...I can wait.
Illegal Labor Practices: (I'm assuming Illegal Aliens, Correct me if I'm wrong) Illegals would still be paying the FairTax, where as today they don't pay Income Taxes, and they wouldn't receive the Prebate (which pays you back for the Expected Taxes on Foods and Necessities up to the Poverty Level, See FairTax Thread for more Info) So Illegals would have more of an incentive to go the Legal Route, because they would lose at least $200 a month in Spending Power.

Improper Waste Disposal: EPA Fines, just like today.

Zoning: Handled exactly like today.

Land Regulation: Handled Exactly like Today.

But, of the Three above, again, you won't see headline with anything to do with a politician making new promises with Taxes, so, what else will they be doing with their time? Try to keep their Jobs by making the Voters happy, so if the voters want them to make sure Companies clean up after themselves, they can tell their representative to increase the fines to make sure the company won't make any more messes. The Zoning and Land Regulation, you may have to explain this a little more to me, but I don't see what these two things really have to do with Lobbyists.

[BlackLantern]

Aren't most illegals paid under the table, and usually in cash? So how does Fairtax apply to them??

[Marx]

Aren't most illegals paid under the table, and usually in cash? So how does Fairtax apply to them??

You're on a roll BL! I'm curious to know the answer to that one as well.

[BlackLantern]

Improper Waste Disposal: EPA Fines, just like today.

Zoning: Handled exactly like today.

Land Regulation: Handled Exactly like Today.

But, of the Three above, again, you won't see headline with anything to do with a politician making new promises with Taxes, so, what else will they be doing with their time? Try to keep their Jobs by making the Voters happy, so if the voters want them to make sure Companies clean up after themselves, they can tell their representative to increase the fines to make sure the company won't make any more messes. The Zoning and Land Regulation, you may have to explain this a little more to me, but I don't see what these two things really have to do with Lobbyists.

Lobbyists try to get politicians to change regulations, laws, and such so those EPA fines aren't as stiff or to get rid of them all together. The same with zoning and land regs, to make it easier for their interests to build plants on the cheap...pay off inspectors...There is more to lobbyists than just taxes.

[StorminNorman]

Aren't most illegals paid under the table, and usually in cash? So how does Fairtax apply to them??

Do you know the basic premises of the Fairtax at all? This is not an insult nor me being an ******* - an honest question. The Fairtax is a consumption tax- thats the radically different aspect about it. If an illegal goes to buy a TV - then the TV's price already includes the tax fee's in it. So just the act of buying the TV pays the tax.

Illegals could **** gold and silver and still be taxed under the Fairtax.

[SuBe]

Aren't most illegals paid under the table, and usually in cash? So how does Fairtax apply to them??
Stormy's got it right, With the FairTax, you only pay taxes as you purchase new goods and Services. Which means no withholdings. You are not Taxed on your Income, Corporations are not Taxes, No more Federal Taxes, except the FairTax. Which would be a 23% tax on all new goods and services. There is a Prebate (See FairTax Thread for More Info) which off-sets the Tax Liability up to the Poverty Level. To Ensure that no Non-American Cititzen Receives this Prebate, you have to supply a valid SSN, and it is verified. Those that have a Valid SSN get a Prebate. Today, Illegals do not pay income tax as they are paid in cash, off the books. But, they are going to spend that money. They have to supply food, pay gas, or whatever, that money is being spent. So, since they do not have a valid SSN, they are not going to receive the Prebate. So, in today's Tax Code vs FairTax, they end up losing $2,400 in spending power per individual per year, until they get a Valid SSN. Now, that is an enticment for Immigrants to come here the legal way, or end up spending more on their Tax Liability.

[rdh007]

Can we please call it a regressive sales tax? Then everyone will know what we're talking about.

[SuBe]

Can we please call it a regressive sales tax? Then everyone will know what we're talking about.
But it is not, it is the Most Progressive Tax Plan ever presented to Congress as those in Poverty do not pay any taxes at all, and the farther removed from the Poverty Level, the more Taxes you pay, due to the Prebate.

[rdh007]

You're right about the super-poor. But I'm talking about the middle class. If you work for a living and spend more, you will pay more.

[SuBe]

You're right about the super-poor. But I'm talking about the middle class. If you work for a living and spend more, you will pay more.
Again, your choice to spend more, but you receive @ $200 a month for yourself and and extra @$200 for every dependant. If you decide to spend more on Goods and Services then above the poverty level than what you can afford, it's up to you, but it guarentees you do not pay anything in Taxes up to the Poverty level. So, if you are middle class, and have a Wife and 2 Kids, you receive $6,440 a year extra to offset your Tax Liability. That's on top of the 100% paycheck you are already receiving. So, if you want to send your kids to school and pay your mortage, you can save up with what would be considered today as "pre-taxed" dollars, (plus under the FairTax Education is considered an investment, so it isn't taxed, and un-New Homes are not taxed) so the Middle-Class will have an easier time than today due to 100% Untaxed Paycheck, Prebate, AND Untaxed Eduacation and Used Homes. Plus, if you are in the lower-Middle-class, you will still be getting the Prebate which still off-sets your Taxes on Goods and Services, so you will what, pay 1-10% in Taxes as opposed to the 33% today? FairTax wins, sorry.

[BlackLantern]

The Fairtax is nothing more than a liberal jerk off fantasy....the current system is too profitable to those in power....IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN....

[SuBe]

The Fairtax is nothing more than a liberal jerk off fantasy....the current system is too profitable to those in power....IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN....
And that sir is the Very reason to discuss and support it. There are more Congressman that are co-sponsering this Bill (HR 25) than any other bill (72). There are millions of people that support this Tax Plan, there are $22 Million Privately invested in research. This can happen, all we need to do is make our Politicians make it happen! It starts slow, but the more we talk about it, the more we educate others the better chance this has to happen! Just like the American Revolution, this can happen.

[BlackLantern]

I don't want it to happen....I'd rather pay income taxes than have to pay more for goods and services....so does my voice and opinion not count? How dare you presume to speak for everyone?

[SuBe]

I don't want it to happen....I'd rather pay income taxes than have to pay more for goods and services....so does my voice and opinion not count? How dare you presume to speak for everyone?
So, you would rather spend 33% on what you earn than 23% on what you spend, even when those items you would spend it on is only on average 1% more than the cost of goods today. You would rather have the government confiscate 33% of what you earn without a say, than paying 23% when you choose? You would rather Lobbyists have more say on Tax Policy than you? You would rather to continue to pay 15% on your investments than pay NO taxes on them? You would rather Drug Dealer and Prostitutes not pay taxes on their Income and Tax people their honestly earned income, than everyone pay an equal Rate based on when you choose?

Who do I speak for? I speak for all the people that would rather save their money than have it confiscated from them. I Speak for all the people that want more choice in their Government. I speak for the next Generation of people that will benefit from a better Economy due to $11-13 Trillion returning to our economy that is currently sitting in off-shore accounts not working to supply more jobs. I'm speaking for all the people that has already lost jobs due to our Tax Code. I speak for all the people that want to see Freedom for oppression of our Tax Code.

[BlackLantern]

So, you would rather spend 33% on what you earn than 23% on what you spend, even when those items you would spend it on is only on average 1% more than the cost of goods today. You would rather have the government confiscate 33% of what you earn without a say, than paying 23% when you choose? You would rather Lobbyists have more say on Tax Policy than you? You would rather to continue to pay 15% on your investments than pay NO taxes on them? You would rather Drug Dealer and Prostitutes not pay taxes on their Income and Tax people their honestly earned income, than everyone pay an equal Rate based on when you choose?

Who do I speak for? I speak for all the people that would rather save their money than have it confiscated from them. I Speak for all the people that want more choice in their Government. I speak for the next Generation of people that will benefit from a better Economy due to $11-13 Trillion returning to our economy that is currently sitting in off-shore accounts not working to supply more jobs. I'm speaking for all the people that has already lost jobs due to our Tax Code. I speak for all the people that want to see Freedom for oppression of our Tax Code.

I'm not living paycheck to paycheck so it doesn't really bother me

[SuBe]

I'm not living paycheck to paycheck so it doesn't really bother me
That's great you are not living paycheck to paycheck. But, that has little to do with it, how about the fact your ARE paying the Government without choice? How about the Fact that you are paying the government just to live? Where under the FairTax, you would receive a Prebate so NO-ONE ever pays the Government just to live. Why do you think it is Fair for people to live tax free when you have to pay the taxes for the services they enjoy? Why would you want to stagnate our economy with a horrible tax code that is not helping our country? Don't you want the Next Generation to have a better country than the one you currently live in?

[BlackLantern]

That's great you are not living paycheck to paycheck. But, that has little to do with it, how about the fact your ARE paying the Government without choice? How about the Fact that you are paying the government just to live? Where under the FairTax, you would receive a Prebate so NO-ONE ever pays the Government just to live. Why do you think it is Fair for people to live tax free when you have to pay the taxes for the services they enjoy? Why would you want to stagnate our economy with a horrible tax code that is not helping our country? Don't you want the Next Generation to have a better country than the one you currently live in?

My standard of living is just fine....as for taxes, its a part of life....it would take a massive movement to change the current system and you do know that tons of government jobs would be lost if the IRS ceased to exist? If you are ok with walking into an IRS building and telling a secretary, who is a struggling mother of 2, that she no longer has a job....then have at it.

[SuBe]

My standard of living is just fine....as for taxes, its a part of life....it would take a massive movement to change the current system and you do know that tons of government jobs would be lost if the IRS ceased to exist? If you are ok with walking into an IRS building and telling a secretary, who is a struggling mother of 2, that she no longer has a job....then have at it.
So you are going to allow our Current Tax Code to exist for 1 mother of 2 kids?

There is a provision in the FairTax Act that allows for the IRS to exist for up to 2 years to collect all the back taxes. 1/3 of the IRS will be converted or absorbed into the Sales Tax Bureau, the Rest will easily find jobs due the increase in all the Jobs moving from overseas to the United States. Most of these people have higher eductions and will easily get jobs as financial planners and CFOs or accountants for all the Jobs moving here. And if you want to talk about H&R Block, they make more money from investments with less effort today than Personal Income Tax Filings. The President of H&R Block supports the FairTax and states that if Investments are untaxed, more people will do so, increasing their job load, needing more people, as the main reason for supporting it. Not counting the $11-13 TRILLION from coming back to the United States that will most likely be invested creating even MORE Jobs. Not only that, but the Federal Government tends to give nice Severance Packages, I worked for them for 9 months and received nearly $3,500 in serverance. What would someone who worked for Many Years make? And, a recent report states that 50% of people that work in the IRS are within 5 years of retirement, not a concern really.

So, jobs are not a concern.

Again, are your really going to think that 10,000 people jobs are worth keeping a Tax Code than removes jobs from our Country instead of supporting a plan that will bring jobs here?

[Mr Sparkle]

I find it Ironic that SB's position here is far closer to my own in the Healthcare thread, and he is arguing for basically the same system.

I just found it weird.

[SuBe]

How's that Sparky? I'm for Choice when it comes to Healthcare, you are for Government Control. I'm for Choice when you pay taxes. How is this the same?

[Mr Sparkle]

How's that Sparky? I'm for Choice when it comes to Healthcare, you are for Government Control. I'm for Choice when you pay taxes. How is this the same?

I'm not for government control at all :huh: you're not that bad at reading are you? in fact my stance on it is pretty choice oriented.
plus, hate to break it to you, but even your "fair tax" would be government controlled, it is a "tax" regardless of it's "fair" name.
I could call the Hanta virus the " sweet nectar of the gods" and it would still be the Hanta virus.

plus, I have this vision of you walking one day and seeing a large crowd, someone inside it screams

"help! he is having a heart attack!"

you part your way through the crowd and finally get to the slumped figure of a man frantically grabbing at his chest
you smile confidently

"relax everyone.....I know about the fair tax!"

[SuBe]

I'm not for government control at all :huh: you're not that bad at reading are you? in fact my stance on it is pretty choice oriented.
plus, hate to break it to you, but even your "fair tax" would be government controlled, it is a "tax" regardless of it's "fair" name.
I could call the Hanta virus the " sweet nectar of the gods" and it would still be the Hanta virus.

plus, I have this vision of you walking one day and seeing a large crowd, someone inside it screams

"help! he is having a heart attack!"

you part your way through the crowd and finally get to the slumped figure of a man frantically grabbing at his chest
you smile confidently

"relax everyone.....I know about the fair tax!"
Are you going to answer the question. Are you Not for Government Health Care?

[Mr Sparkle]

Are you going to answer the question. Are you Not for Government Health Care?

uh...your question was if I was for government control when it comes to health care, which I am not.
hence I already answered.:cwink:

[SuBe]

Then what are we talking about?

[BlackLantern]

Back on topic...I think some Conservatives are happier than liberals because conservatives are more apt to live within their means.

[SuBe]

Agreed.

[BlackLantern]

I'd love to see a politician or someone in high authority point the finger at the American people for once....personal debt is astronomical right now and as easy as it seems to point the finger at taxes, at the war, at whatever...no one seems to want to look in the mirror....not saying its the whole problem, but it is definitely a contributing factor

[SuBe]

It is a huge factor. People in this country tend to want to give the Federal Government too much power over our lives, like with Healthcare and Social Security. Why can't people fend for themselves opposed to letting the Government control everything?

[Mr Sparkle]

Back on topic...I think some Conservatives are happier than liberals because conservatives are more apt to live within their means.

but...the article already....

eh, nevermind.

[BlackLantern]

but...the article already....

eh, nevermind.

I know....just restating the original topic of the thread...SB got all Fairtax happy and the thread was derailed

[Mr Sparkle]

anyway, if conservatives are so damned happy, how come some of them seem so damned angry all the time?
sure, PETA and all those nuts seem like they need some mercy ****s, but overall, the conservative side always seems so damned outraged.

[Marx]

I know....just restating the original topic of the thread...SB got all Fairtax happy and the thread was derailed

Threads never get hijacked around here BL! :oldrazz::cwink:

[SuBe]

Threads never get hijacked around here BL! :oldrazz::cwink:
I was just doing my duty. :woot:

[ForestAflame]

Ignorance is bliss.

[SuBe]

I am

Your Political Profile: http://blogthings.cachefly.net/howliberalorconservativeareyouquiz/politics.jpg Overall: 85% Conservative, 15% Liberal

Social Issues: 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal

Personal Responsibility: 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal

Fiscal Issues: 100% Conservative, 0% Liberal

Ethics: 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal

Defense and Crime: 100% Conservative, 0% Liberal
http://www.blogthings.com/howliberalorconservativeareyouquiz/

[Marx]

I am

http://www.blogthings.com/howliberalorconservativeareyouquiz/

That is a very interesting personality profile test SB. Thanks for posting it!

[SuBe]

Your welcome, I found a bunch today. I had an average of 80% Conservative with 3 different Tests. But I'm a Libertarian/Conservative so that's why I didn't get 100%. :grin:

[The Chairman]

Your Political Profile: http://blogthings.cachefly.net/howliberalorconservativeareyouquiz/politics.jpg Overall: 35% Conservative, 65% Liberal

Social Issues: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Personal Responsibility: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Fiscal Issues: 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal

Ethics: 0% Conservative, 100% Liberal

Defense and Crime: 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal

[The Chairman]

I think it represents my views pretty well, though the fact that I'm 100 % liberal on ethics scares me.

[StorminNorman]

Overall: 70% Conservative, 30% Liberal

Social Issues: 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal

Personal Responsibility: 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal

Fiscal Issues: 100% Conservative, 0% Liberal

Ethics: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Defense and Crime: 100% Conservative, 0% Liberal

[The Chairman]

Overall: 70% Conservative, 30% Liberal

Social Issues: 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal

Personal Responsibility: 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal

Fiscal Issues: 100% Conservative, 0% Liberal

Ethics: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Defense and Crime: 100% Conservative, 0% Liberal

I guess you're happier than me.

[Superhobo]

"Your Political Profile:
Overall: 15% Conservative, 85% Liberal

Social Issues: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Personal Responsibility: 0% Conservative, 100% Liberal

Fiscal Issues: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Ethics: 0% Conservative, 100% Liberal

Defense and Crime: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal"


Of course, I'm not really a liberal; but it seems that those are the only two choices.

[SuBe]

I agree, Like I said, I'm libertarian, so I really don't like the 2 sided stuff. Whatever though. I'm 80% Happy :)

[Addendum]

Overall: 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal

Social Issues: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Personal Responsibility: 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal

Fiscal Issues: 100% Conservative, 0% Liberal

Ethics: 0% Conservative, 100% Liberal

Defense and Crime: 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal

[BlackLantern]

I say we start hunting the poor and homeless for sport....

[Addendum]

The poor and homeless aren't much of a challenge. Now, hunting politicians and pop stars for sport could be interesting

[rdh007]

Overall: 70% Conservative, 30% Liberal

Social Issues: 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal

Personal Responsibility: 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal

Fiscal Issues: 100% Conservative, 0% Liberal

Ethics: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Defense and Crime: 100% Conservative, 0% Liberal

Overall, you and I are two sides of the same coin.

Overall: 30% Conservative, 70% Liberal

Social Issues: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Personal Responsibility: 0% Conservative, 100% Liberal

Fiscal Issues: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Ethics: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Defense and Crime: 75% Conservative, 25% Libera

[rdh007]

The poor and homeless aren't much of a challenge. Now, hunting politicians and pop stars for sport could be interesting

Yeah, at least they try to stay in shape and eat well.

[StorminNorman]

Overall, you and I are two sides of the same coin.

Overall: 30% Conservative, 70% Liberal

Social Issues: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Personal Responsibility: 0% Conservative, 100% Liberal

Fiscal Issues: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Ethics: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Defense and Crime: 75% Conservative, 25% Libera

Thats quite amusing.

[Memphis Slim]

Liberals are freaking out over global warming....er... climate change.:whatever:

Conservatives are not. So I guess we are happier!!!:woot::woot::woot:

[Superhobo]

Liberals are freaking out over global warming....er... climate change.:whatever:

"Liek, its szo totally not tah same tihng, stupid libbers lol!!"


Conservatives are not. So I guess we are happier!!!:woot::woot::woot:

You also die earlier, too. But, no one's mentioned that yet. :o

[SentinelMind]

^when exactly are we all going to die because of global warming?

[BlackLantern]

It burns when I pee....I think I have global warming

[Superhobo]

^when exactly are we all going to die because of global warming?

I'm far from an expert on all of that, so - :o.

But, to elaborate - "you guys" are far more likely to die in your thirties and forties from heart attacks or the like than "we" are (if you want to play into that kind of mentality).

[Handsome Rob]

I'm far from an expert on all of that, so - :o.

But, to elaborate - "you guys" are far more likely to die in your thirties and forties from heart attacks or the like than "we" are (if you want to play into that kind of mentality).

You have any surveys or studies to back that up? Honestly, I would think people who vote Republican probably tend to have higher incidences of heart disease . . . but that's just the opinion of a guy who eats right and exercises regularly.

And one who calls himself a conservative. :huh:

:yay:

[rdh007]

It burns when I pee....I think I have global warming

You have what is generally referred to as Hilton-itis. Other strains include Tila-itis and the Winehouse Tremors.

[Matt]

My results :o

Overall: 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal

Social Issues: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Personal Responsibility: 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal

Fiscal Issues: 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal

Ethics: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Defense and Crime: 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal

Though in all fairness, I could only select which was closest to my beliefs as most of those choices were just two extremes of each side.

[The Senator]

Overall: 30% Conservative, 70% Liberal

Social Issues: 0% Conservative, 100% Liberal

Personal Responsibility: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal

Fiscal Issues: 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal

Ethics: 0% Conservative, 100% Liberal

Defense and Crime: 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal

Like Matt, my only problem with this is that every answer is the choice between one extreme or another...

[Matt]

Yeah, I felt the same way.

These two questions really bothered me:

Social Security:
Is simply a transfer payment that should be replaced by personal accounts
Can easily be fixed by making the rich and employers pay more

Taxes should be...
Cut to stimulate the economy and give people more of their money back.
Something the rich pay more of. They can afforded.

Like, just two huge extremes.

[BlackLantern]

One of the questions in there should be:

Do you love America?

Do you think America eats babies and kittens?

[Marx]

My results :o



Though in all fairness, I could only select which was closest to my beliefs as most of those choices were just two extremes of each side.

Like Matt, my only problem with this is that every answer is the choice between one extreme or another...

I agree guys. There really is no middle ground in that survey...

[Superman]

Hell, It's easy being happy when you're brain dead.:cwink::oldrazz::woot:

[SuBe]

That's not nice...

[LuiECuomo]

Hell, It's easy being happy when you're brain dead.:cwink::oldrazz::woot:

Well, I wouldn't be too happy being brainless! ;)

[rdh007]

I agree guys. There really is no middle ground in that survey...

I "fourth" the motion. Though I wouldn't say it was completely inaccurate.

[Marx]

I "fourth" the motion. Though I wouldn't say it was completely inaccurate.

I wouldn't say that it was entirely inaccurate either. I would still prefer to have some middle ground when trying to answer some of those questions though.

[The Chairman]

Liberals are freaking out over global warming....er... climate change.:whatever:

Conservatives are not. So I guess we are happier!!!:woot::woot::woot:

You've once again proved how superhumanly ignorant you truly are.

Hell, It's easy being happy when you're brain dead.:cwink::oldrazz::woot:

That...kinda wasn't necessary.

[comicgirl]

When your party has pretty much run the country unchecked for the last seven years, yeah, I would imagine you would be happier than your left-leaning counterparts.

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/icon13.gif
:word::word::grin:Oh, that's all about to change.

[Marx]

:word::word::grin:Oh, that's all about to change.

We can only hope...

[BlackLantern]

:word::word::grin:Oh, that's all about to change.

well....when I can stand in a grocery store and hear Hilary referred to as a **** and Obama referred to as a Muslim ******, I have a tough time believing that

[Marx]

well....when I can stand in a grocery store and hear Hilary referred to as a **** and Obama referred to as a Muslim ******, I have a tough time believing that

Same here BL.

[Superman]

Well, I wouldn't be too happy being brainless! ;)Touche. :woot: :up: :woot:

[Atlantis]

What's the difference between conservatives and liberals?

[BlackLantern]

What's the difference between conservatives and liberals?

Conservatives like the missionary position?

[Atlantis]

Ha! Really? I know conservatives are mostly Republicans and liberals are mostly Democrats, but I don't know the main difference.

[BlackLantern]

Ha! Really? I know conservatives are mostly Republicans and liberals are mostly Democrats, but I don't know the main difference.

Lots of it has to do with stances on taxes, small government vs big government, immigration, foreign and domestic policy, business practices, religion....its a lot of different things

[SuBe]

So, if I think Taxes are lower and goverment needs to be smaller, I'm a conservative. Cool. I'm happy 80% then! What about the FairTax???

[BlackLantern]

So, if I think Taxes are lower and goverment needs to be smaller, I'm a conservative. Cool. I'm happy 80% then! What about the FairTax???

Can you go 3 posts in a row without bringing that up?

[Mr Sparkle]

he can't.

[SuBe]

Can you go 3 posts in a row without bringing that up?
I have a condition. sorry...:csad:

[Marx]

I have a condition. sorry...:csad:

I'd believe that SB :cwink:

[Atlantis]

I have a condition. sorry...:csad:
You might want to find some help for that.