Discussion: Gay Rights

[Outsiderzedge]

... ...

Hello there.

[Mr Sparkle]

I do not mean slavery was intended as such, but merely that it was as such and should be taken for what it was and not what it was intended for.

ignore the intent and cherish the one positive effect?
nah, if a guy rapes a girl, then this gir has to get a rape kit and examination and they find a treatable form of melanoma the guy should still go to jail, even if the girl would've died from untreated skin cancer.

but yeah, I get your point now.

[vibeke_T]

what. that made no sense.

[Kevin]

Hola, what's your views on this? After a while, I kinda glazed over because "the book" was brought up.

[Cyclops]

The question of this thread seems to me to be a very silly one. While yes, it is true that there are similarities between the ways black people and homosexuals have been treated over time, the same can be said of any minority group in any population. There are similarities between and amongst all of them.

However, the differences are vast and noticeable enough not just between blacks and homosexuals but across the entire minority spectrum that they cannot be compared beyond the most base surface comparisons.

[Mr Sparkle]

Computers are conducive to the further development of the human race.

Homosexuality is not.


really? how on earth could you possibly know that?
oh, BTW Plato was a flaming homosexual.
go figure.

[Colossal Spoons]

I do not mean slavery was intended as such, but merely that it was as such and should be taken for what it was and not what it was intended for.

You'd like all African americans to ignore the intent of slavery?

[Outsiderzedge]

ignore the intent and cherish the one positive effect?
nah, if a guy rapes a girl, then this gir has to get a rape kit and examination and they find a treatable form of melanoma the guy should still go to jail, even if the girl would've died from untreated skin cancer.

but yeah, I get your point now.

Allowing rape would have detrimental effect on a society.

Enslaving a people has no effect except on the people that is enslaved. They are not important to the people whom are enslaving them.

Human civlization can thrive with slavery. It can not with rape.

[Outsiderzedge]

really? how on earth could you possibly know that?
oh, BTW Plato was a flaming homosexual.
go figure.

I see...

He was a great philosopher and him being homosexual was one of the reasons he was...

You may be an idiot.

[Addendum]

So where's the offspring of a computer and a woman?

[Kevin]

Sparky, Addendum, that will be brought up later. Right now, I just want to hear how people think Homos are basically pointless.

[Outsiderzedge]

So where's the offspring of a computer and a woman?

I think you may need to work on reading comprehension.

[Mr Sparkle]

I see...

He was a great philosopher and him being homosexual was one of the reasons he was...

You may be an idiot.

no, I NEVER said that did I? I didn't even Imply it since I was merely stating the fact that a Homosexual had helped or had been "conductive" (sic) to the development of the human race (completely invalidating your poor "shocking for the sake of shocking" argument)
I did however ask how in the world you KNEW homosexuality is not conducive to the further development of the human race.
I hope that you can answer this.

nice edit BTW.

[Outsiderzedge]

no, I NEVER said that did I? I didn't even Imply it since I was merely stating the fact that a Homosexual had helped or had been "conductive" (sic) to the development of the human race (completely invalidating your poor "shocking for the sake of shocking" argument)
I did however ask how in the world you KNEW homosexuality is not conducive to the further development of the human race.
I hope that you can answer this.

nice edit BTW.

Homosexuality does not mean homosexual people.

Work on your reading comprehension.

[Outsiderzedge]

Homosexuality is not conducive to development because it serves no function in any field of development.

It is simply, as one person put it, a "defect," that a small portion of the population is inflicted with.

[Mr Sparkle]

Homosexuality does not mean homosexual people.

Work on your reading comprehension.

LOL, no...work on your sentence construction within a given context (if we're being strict about meanings here) again, how could you possibly know that Homosexuality is NOT conducive to the further development of the human race, how on earth could you hope to know it's role in the development, or if it even plays a role? to summarily dismiss it given nature and natural processes is the height of both arrogance and stupidity.

[vibeke_T]

Allowing rape would have detrimental effect on a society.

Enslaving a people has no effect except on the people that is enslaved. They are not important to the people whom are enslaving them.

Human civlization can thrive with slavery. It can not with rape.

ok. WTF.

[Kevin]

Defect... people are now actually calling it Fu**ing defect...

[Outsiderzedge]

We know the prerequisites to every technology, science, art and philosophy and the cause or likely cause behind every discovery and great event and homosexuality was not a prerequisite or cause for any of them and I would venture to guess that it will not be a prerequisite or cause for any positive development of humanity in the future.

[Bat Attack]

Legalize it. What's the big deal? It's not like it's physically killing someone if two homosexuals get married. I honestly don't see what the problem is. Two people who love eachother should be able to get married if they wish.

[Mr Sparkle]

We know the prerequisites to every technology, science, art and philosophy and the cause or likely cause behind every discovery and great event and homosexuality was not a prerequisite or cause for any of them and I would venture to guess that it will not be a prerequisite or cause for any positive development of humanity in the future.

see, there is where your argument is fatally flawed.
art and phylosophy are shaped by the individual thoughts, experiences and observations of those who bring forth their works.
who they are is integral to how these works develop and where they develop
sexuality has shaped the ideas of men and women, both heterosexuality and homosexuality have been INTEGRAL in the development of mankind in those areas.
so, no....you're wrong.

[Outsiderzedge]

see, there is where your argument is fatally flawed.
art and phylosophy are shaped by the individual thoughts, experiences and observations of those who bring forth their works.
who they are is integral to how these works develop and where they develop
sexuality has shaped the ideas of men and women, both heterosexuality and homosexuality have been INTEGRAL in the development of mankind in those areas.
so, no....you're wrong.

Only the arts and philosophy directed influenced by sexuality would have had any influence from something as unimportant to human thought as which sex of the human race one is attracted to.

Coincidentily, no productive art or philosophy is influenced by sexuality. A previous school of thought was the influence behind each major art and philosophy.

You seem to be under the impression that one's sexual preference has any relevance to serious thought.

[Mr Sparkle]

Allowing rape would have detrimental effect on a society.
Enslaving a people has no effect except on the people that is enslaved. They are not important to the people whom are enslaving them.
Human civlization can thrive with slavery. It can not with rape.

no, again, you're wrong because you manipulate the meaning of "society"
enslaving a people has an effect on "society" an obvious one, look at the cultures that have had slaves and tell me it had no "effect" on them.
both are detrimental, and in some cases could prove nearly catastrophic.

[Mr Sparkle]

Only the arts and philosophy directed influenced by sexuality would have had any influence from something as unimportant to human thought as which sex of the human race one is attracted to.

Coincidentily, no productive art or philosophy is influenced by sexuality. A previous school of thought was the influence behind each major art and philosophy.

You seem to be under the impression that one's sexual preference has any relevance to serious thought.


no, you're astoundingly wrong, and should work a bit on that "reading comprehension" you hold so dear.
none of what you just wrote, I repeat NONE of what you just wrote is true.
some science is sexless and discoveries made in those areas are rarely affected by the human element of sex. I can accept this.
but you cannnot however hope to remove the human component from arts and phylosophy.
these works are shaped by the individual, the individual who is a sum of his experiences and tendencies.
including his sexual orientation.
if you can't see this T.S.

[Outsiderzedge]

no, you're astoundingly wrong, and should work a bit on that "reading comprehension" you hold so dear.
none of what you just wrote, I repeat NONE of what you just wrote is true.
some science is sexless and discoveries made in those areas are rarely affected by the human element of sex. I can accept this.
but you cannnot however hope to remove the human component from arts and phylosophy.
these works are shaped by the individual, the individual who is a sum of his experiences and tendencies.
including his sexual orientation.
if you can't see this T.S.

Art serves only as entertainment so it is not important anyway what influences it. Philosophy, on the other hand, are schools of thought. No important philosophy has been the result of sexual thought; those concerning logic, ethics, politics, and metaphysics. Aesthetics is the only branch of philosophy that would be influenced by something as meaningless as sexuality and, not coincidentily, is as important as art to the development of mankind.

[Outsiderzedge]

no, again, you're wrong because you manipulate the meaning of "society"
enslaving a people has an effect on "society" an obvious one, look at the cultures that have had slaves and tell me it had no "effect" on them.
both are detrimental, and in some cases could prove nearly catastrophic.

It has an effect in so much that it causes discussion of ethics within a society, but it does not have the deblitating effect that allowing rape would have on that same society.

Again, slavery has virtually no effect on a society. It is only if they choose to be effected that they are.

[AndThePickles]

It has an effect in so much that it causes discussion of ethics within a society, but it does not have the deblitating effect that allowing rape would have on that same society.

Again, slavery has virtually no effect on a society. It is only if they choose to be effected that they are.

:eek: Please tell me you're joking.

[Mr Sparkle]

Art serves only as entertainment so it is not important anyway what influences it. Philosophy, on the other hand, are schools of thought. No important philosophy has been the result of sexual thought; those concerning logic, ethics, politics, and metaphysics. Aesthetics is the only branch of philosophy that would be influenced by something as meaningless as sexuality and, not coincidentily, is as important as art to the development of mankind.

LOL, no, it was you who cited it as part of human development, don't backtrack now because it's not working out the way you want.
but see? now you're (rather desperately) picking and choosing what's "important to development" so it fits your argument.
No, sorry.
you're still wrong.
(and again, you keep saying "sexual thought" I don't think you're getting the idea i'm trying to convey, who's fault that is I don't know)

[vibeke_T]

:eek: Please tell me you're joking.

yes...he's confused

[Kyalesyin]

If art holds no importance, what do you consider to be art?

Some of the great works of literature? Some of the buildings that have lasted over 1000 years and are still beautiful now? Plays and theatre productions that have served as much to make people think as entertain them?

Beauty and sexuality are inseperable. Without a sex drive, we would have no concept of beauty.

[Outsiderzedge]

:eek: Please tell me you're joking.

You do not know what you replied to.

[vibeke_T]

You do not know what you replied to.

are you male or female?

[Outsiderzedge]

If art holds no importance, what do you consider to be art?

Some of the great works of literature? Some of the buildings that have lasted over 1000 years and are still beautiful now? Plays and theatre productions that have served as much to make people think as entertain them?

Beauty and sexuality are inseperable. Without a sex drive, we would have no concept of beauty.

Beauty may inspire, but inspiration is not necessary to the sufficiently clever.

Inspiration is the crutch for those whom lack the intelligence and ability to invent and discover of their own will. We should move away from needing inspiration and art and towards being capable of improvement autonomously.

[AndThePickles]

You do not know what you replied to.

How do I not know what I replied to? :huh: I disagree with your statement; I think regardless of your idea that people have to "choose" to let it affect the society that the society gets affected by something as horrible as slavery.

[Outsiderzedge]

Female.

[Mr Sparkle]

It has an effect in so much that it causes discussion of ethics within a society, but it does not have the deblitating effect that allowing rape would have on that same society.

Again, slavery has virtually no effect on a society. It is only if they choose to be effected that they are.

a society where rape (like slavery) is common practice tend to nulify the "ill" effects, look at the middle ages.

[blind_fury]

It has an effect in so much that it causes discussion of ethics within a society, but it does not have the deblitating effect that allowing rape would have on that same society.

Again, slavery has virtually no effect on a society. It is only if they choose to be effected that they are.
ok let's enslave the white middle class for the next 400 years.

I can't wait to feed you my scraps and beat your family for working too slow! :up:

good times.

[Outsiderzedge]

How do I not know what I replied to? :huh: I disagree with your statement; I think regardless of your idea that people have to "choose" to let it affect the society that the society gets affected by something as horrible as slavery.

If you have ever wondered why women have never been able to become the rulers of the world, you have just answered that question.

Compassion is not necessary to progress.

[vibeke_T]

a society where rape (like slavery) is common practice tend to nulify the "ill" effects, look at the middle ages.



explain

[Kyalesyin]

Inspiration isn't autonomous. If it was, we'd have run out of things to discover ages ago. If it wasn't for a silk moth pupae landing in a teacup, we wouldn't have silk. The randomest things can inspire you. Spontanaety is one of our most powerful assests. Without inspiration and spontanaety, we'd be little more than robots, because they are the foundation for imagination.

Is imagination a bad thing? Your post seems to imply thus. Art and imagination is what sets us apart from animals.

[vibeke_T]

ok let's enslave the white middle class for the next 400 years.

I can't wait to feed you my scraps and beat your family for working too slow! :up:

good times.



and dont forget to tell them that they are less than a whole man...what was it...like 3/5 or less than a normal human?

oh and break up families...sending to them as far away from each other as possible.

[Outsiderzedge]

Inspiration isn't autonomous. If it was, we'd have run out of things to discover ages ago. If it wasn't for a silk moth pupae landing in a teacup, we wouldn't have silk. The randomest things can inspire you. Spontanaety is one of our most powerful assests. Without inspiration and spontanaety, we'd be little more than robots, because they are the foundation for imagination.

Is imagination a bad thing? Your post seems to imply thus. Art and imagination is what sets us apart from animals.

I meant that our improvement should be autonomous instead of depending on what happens to purposelessly influence us.

Art and imagination are products of our limitations and should not be considered important aspects to preserve.

[blind_fury]

If you have ever wondered why women have never been able to become the rulers of the world, you have just answered that question.

Compassion is not necessary to progress.
Progress?

who cares if there are flying cars and space travel if the human race is shameful and sadistic?

[Kyalesyin]

Imagination? A limitation? Hardly. Without an imagination we would still be living in caves. If it wasn't for some guy looking at a fire and wondering 'how do I make that', nothing we are even vaguely familiar with would have happened.

Imagination is limitless. It was one of the few things we cannot quantify, cannot trap, control or measure. You like music, movies, comics, whatever. Thats all the product of someones imagination. You wanna do away with that?

[AndThePickles]

If you have ever wondered why women have never been able to become the rulers of the world, you have just answered that question.

Compassion is not necessary to progress.

You didn't say the PROGRESS of society in your previous statement. And in that sense I will agree- no, compassion isn't necessary to ECONOMICAL progress of society. However, being that we are human beings, I think it is important to have ethics involved in our world.

What you were saying before is that slavery doesn't have any effect on society, correct? I don't see how that could possibly be true.

[jono11]

the "best" way, would to simply accept each other, openly without so much prejudice from BOTH sides.I don't accept Nazis. Sorry. Call me closed-minded, I guess.

[jono11]

I see that. I even consider myself lucky to be here in the advanced country of America as opposed to anywhere in Africa really; but I'd NEVER go so far as to say "I'm lucky b/c of slavery". That's just a tactless thing to say.

It's not like the slaves took a cruise over here ans stayed in a hotel for 400 years.Are you trying to reason with an individual who would rather you were dead, or enslaved?

[Union Jack]

i can't get what the problem here is...its gone way of gay marriage..i never said gays were defective at all...i said they have a chemical make up different to hetrosexual people..which is fair comment as we all chemically diffent somewhere down the line to make us what we are..
i just dont think the gay folk should get married in a church...quoting bible stuff is no good as some bilble have it changed to suit modern times...by right it says no man should lay down with another man...but it also says one should lays with his neighbours wife...that happens all the damn time!!!

i have nowt against gays getting married...just i personally dont think it should be in a church.

in fact some of the worlds best entertainers have been gay....freddie mercury,elton john,george michael...robbie williams (just wait for it!!) so i have nowt against gays at all...

[jono11]

Allowing rape would have detrimental effect on a society.

Enslaving a people has no effect except on the people that is enslaved. They are not important to the people whom are enslaving them.

Human civlization can thrive with slavery. It can not with rape.For centuries, marriage was basically rape. Society worked just fine.

[Mr Sparkle]

explain

it becomes run of the mill, common and while looked down upon "acceptable" in a perverse way, doesn't mean it's right though.

[Mr Sparkle]

I don't accept Nazis. Sorry. Call me closed-minded, I guess.

I don't think you understood what i was saying.

[Mr Sparkle]

Art and imagination are products of our limitations and should not be considered important aspects to preserve.

actually they are the product of our present limitations, and the means by which to break them.
so they are more the product of our potential.

[Kevin]

Defective - Imperfect, Flawed, Faulty.... :cmad: *sigh*

[Union Jack]

i dont get why so many black folk hate white folk for slavery...it was a long time ago since the english and co did that sort of thing...its like english hating german for ww 1 and 2..we dont it was a long time ago..

nowadays their own people are worse at slavery and corruption etc than the white folks are...

[Union Jack]

comicboy..if you dont mind me asking..are you homosexual then??...

no offensive meant of course...just trying to fathom why folks seems to be getting so offended so quick.

[USMC]

I meant that our improvement should be autonomous instead of depending on what happens to purposelessly influence us.

Art and imagination are products of our limitations and should not be considered important aspects to preserve.


LOL, I was actually getting interested in your POV, then suddenly realized you want the human race to become robots!!!

HAHAHA, nevermind, nothing you say can be taken seriously anymore, you're like something out of a Bradbury novel!!! :D

[USMC]

comicboy..if you dont mind me asking..are you homosexual then??...

no offensive meant of course...just trying to fathom why folks seems to be getting so offended so quick.


Tiptoeing around the question of someone's sexuality out of fear that it will offend them is part of the problem, I imagine. :o

[Mr Sparkle]

i can't get what the problem here is...its gone way of gay marriage..i never said gays were defective at all...i said they have a chemical make up different to hetrosexual people..which is fair comment as we all chemically diffent somewhere down the line to make us what we are..
i just dont think the gay folk should get married in a church...quoting bible stuff is no good as some bilble have it changed to suit modern times...by right it says no man should lay down with another man...but it also says one should lays with his neighbours wife...that happens all the damn time!!!

i have nowt against gays getting married...just i personally dont think it should be in a church.

in fact some of the worlds best entertainers have been gay....freddie mercury,elton john,george michael...robbie williams (just wait for it!!) so i have nowt against gays at all...


I'm going to say this once.....just once.
gay marriage is about legal marriage not religious marriage as the governent wouldn't be able to regulate that anyway.

thanks.

[Kevin]

Yes I am, and it took me a long time to accept it. Now to actually realize how some people feel.... I mean, you actually already know how some people feel, but still...

[Union Jack]

well,yeah....but again the sexuality shouldnt matter...its an open debate...its always the most hardcore advocates are generally ones involved in it tho...if you get my meaning.

but tiptoeing round someones sexuality shows you care tho,or you could come out with some nasty comments...

it always puzzles me why the ones with the biggest problems with stuff are always the minorties...whether it be a the gay community,muslim community etc etc...folk generally dont care whether ones black,white,gay straight...but the ones in the circle are soo over sensitive that its us without a problem have to tiptoe round everything we say...we have that problem in spades in britain at the moment

[USMC]

Yes I am, and it took me a long time to accept it. Now to actually realize how some people feel.... I mean. you actually already know how some people feel, but still...

Welcome to the world of minorities.:csad:

[Erzengel]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there some bitterness between Scots, Irish and England to this day?

[USMC]

but tiptoeing round someones sexuality shows you care tho,or you could come out with some nasty comments...

Only by homophobic people who are probably hiding something.

[Kevin]

I'm black as well:(

[Union Jack]

I'm going to say this once.....just once.
gay marriage is about legal marriage not religious marriage as the governent wouldn't be able to regulate that anyway.

thanks.


ah sorry right...alot has been spoken on the religous aspects and stuff...

if the thread is simply about a legalk wedding i have no gripes...why should only straight men be miserable...

[Union Jack]

damn double post

[Mixairian]

Wasn't this done a few dozen times already? Oh well.

Homosexuals have the same right to be just as miserable as Heterosexuals. Who are we to deny them their share of misery?

[the_joker]

It escapes me how there are 26 idiots on the hype who wish to constitutionally ban it all?! Fair enough if you prefer it not to be recognised as a marriage, but banning homosexuals their right to civil unions as well, which is their only chance of cementing their love is a low blow. Shame on you 26 hypers.

[Kevin]

And the simple fact of the matter is that most of the world consider "Straight and White" people to be the only "normal" people. I mean, wth? but this is the wrong thread for that.

[vibeke_T]

i dont get why so many black folk hate white folk for slavery...it was a long time ago since the english and co did that sort of thing...its like english hating german for ww 1 and 2..we dont it was a long time ago..

nowadays their own people are worse at slavery and corruption etc than the white folks are...


discrimination did NOT stop when slavery in america ended...chances are most black people went through tons of things just as bad as slavery up until maybe the 70s and still there were incidents that were horrible.

thats why.

[Mixairian]

It escapes me how there are 26 idiots on the hype who wish to constitutionally ban it all?! Fair enough if you prefer it not to be recognised as a marriage, but banning homosexuals their right to civil unions as well, which is their only chance of cementing their love is a low blow. Shame on you 26 hypers.

It shames me that there is one idiot posting who chooses not to respect another person's right to a personal opinion. Bloody hypocrite.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

discrimination did NOT stop when slavery in america ended...chances are most black people went through tons of things just as bad as slavery up until maybe the 70s and still there were incidents that were horrible.

thats why.Still, distrusting/hating all White people because of the actions of some is just like distrusting/hating all Black people because of the actions of some.....racist.

[Union Jack]

hey a guy can be tartan coloured for me (thatd be interesting)..i have no gripes in colour or sexuality...

sometimes its hard to be the "straight and white" guy believe it or not...its not roses for us either....

[jono11]

i dont get why so many black folk hate white folk for slavery...None of this is about hating anybody. It's just paying what's owed.

nowadays their own people are worse at slavery and corruption etc than the white folks are...Because everybody with dark skin is one unified "people"?

[Union Jack]

but why should we ,this generation pay for the actions or the other generation...

basically it wasnt this generation that did any thing so why do we owe anything to anyone???

oh and jono11...dont get too het up...i didnt mean black people as one people...it stretches into all races....we all all as bad as each other as being crappy to each other at some point or other..

[Kevin]

But it's a hell of a lot easier for you. But don't get me wrong, I am the least racist or anti-straight person you'll ever meet. I'm not concerned about eqaullness like everyone else, but What i want people to Realize is that we are humans as well. We have feelings, and as long as we respect you, we deserve the same.

[Mr Sparkle]

Still, distrusting/hating all White people because of the actions of some is just like distrusting/hating all Black people because of the actions of some.....racist.

yes.

[the_joker]

It shames me that there is one idiot posting who chooses not to respect another person's right to a personal opinion. Bloody hypocrite.

Yawn. There's a difference between having an opinion and forcing your opinion upon the rest of the nation.

[Mixairian]

Straight, Gay. "Colored", "White".

The only true difficulty is dependent upon the community that you come from as well as your family and friend structure.

If you're in a grouping of people that are not open minded in the field of homosexuality it will be a difficult lifestyle no matter what.

Saying it is more difficult being gay and "not white", is a pretty bad way to stereotype people and does nothing towards the unity of gay rights.

[Union Jack]

yeah im all for that..i (this is gonna sound soooo cliche'!!) have a few friends who are gay..don't bother me (did when one made a pass...but thats a different story)

but you also have to get that we as white and straight always have to tiptoe round every damn subject..

basically nowadays if you are a white,young,male...you are either a yob,a snob,a homophobe a racist and all the other predjudices there are out ther...

we say anything at all we get strung up for it...

maybe its time for both sides to just get on with it and stop hurting,killing and basically being crap to each other....

but its like anything..youll get extremists on both sides...which will always keeps the balance flopping all over the place.

[Mixairian]

Yawn. There's a difference between having an opinion and forcing your opinion upon the rest of the nation.
Those 26 believe it should be constitutionally banned. How do you know those 26 people are out right now, going door to door and trying to force people to follow their opinions? You're making the assumption that all people against gay marriages are out crusading with their opinions towards others as opposed to just having an opinion and sharing it with others here.

[USMC]

Paid what's owed? Please...
:whatever:

I don't owe anyone anything. People need to just get off their rearends and take responsibility for their own selves and stop blaming their miserable "plight" on everyone else.

[jono11]

but why should we ,this generation pay for the actions or the other generation...

basically it wasnt this generation that did any thing so why do we owe anything to anyone???Because this generation, and all generations since slavery, have perpetuated institutional racism.

[USMC]

Those 26 believe it should be constitutionally banned. How do you know those 26 people are out right now, going door to door and trying to force people to follow their opinions? You're making the assumption that all people against gay marriages are out crusading with their opinions towards others as opposed to just having an opinion and sharing it with others here.


More likely they're just armchair quarterbacks with no real idea of how the world works. Aside from what they see on TV or what mommy and daddy taught them, that is.

[Kevin]

Straight, Gay. "Colored", "White".

The only true difficulty is dependent upon the community that you come from as well as your family and friend structure.

If you're in a grouping of people that are not open minded in the field of homosexuality it will be a difficult lifestyle no matter what.

Saying it is more difficult being gay and "not white", is a pretty bad way to stereotype people and does nothing towards the unity of gay rights.Not grouping being both. Just trying to say if it's not one thing, then it's the other.

[Mixairian]

More likely they're just armchair quarterbacks with no real idea of how the world works. Aside from what they see on TV or what mommy and daddy taught them, that is.
The same could be said for most of the 122 who posted for the legalization of the act. It's just a tad disgusting how a person could crusade for civil rights, equality and acceptance but not hold those same ideals for the people who don't agree with them.

[the_joker]

Those 26 believe it should be constitutionally banned. How do you know those 26 people are out right now, going door to door and trying to force people to follow their opinions? You're making the assumption that all people against gay marriages are out crusading with their opinions towards others as opposed to just having an opinion and sharing it with others here.

I never said that they were out crusading on their high horses forcing their opinions upon people, what I am saying is that they support the idea of constitutionally banning it. Which would involve the government intervention of inflicting their opinions on the rest of the nation. Fair enough if you don't support it, but to actually go as far banning the whole thing altogether is, in my view, wrong. Whatever next, perhaps the reclassfication of homosexuality being a mental illness. Yeah, I'm sure the Right wing christians will love that one. The real question here is, who decides whether, mental illness is wrong, or whether gay people should get married or not? In my, not-so-humble opinion, I believe that nobody has that right. Not even God himself.

[Kevin]

yeah im all for that..i (this is gonna sound soooo cliche'!!) have a few friends who are gay..don't bother me (did when one made a pass...but thats a different story)

but you also have to get that we as white and straight always have to tiptoe round every damn subject..

basically nowadays if you are a white,young,male...you are either a yob,a snob,a homophobe a racist and all the other predjudices there are out ther...

we say anything at all we get strung up for it...

maybe its time for both sides to just get on with it and stop hurting,killing and basically being crap to each other....

but its like anything..youll get extremists on both sides...which will always keeps the balance flopping all over the place.DUDE!! you should be HAPPY that he made a pass at you (you don't actually have to be happy,. Understandable if it freaked you out.) But get this, a lot of gay guys are worst than girls. There most be SOMETHING about you that there is to like. (not saying that you're unlikeable, though)

[Union Jack]

you do realsie that not only white people can be racist???

there are areas of a town not too far from me that if i walked down at 11pm..they would just come out and beat on me cos im white...does that make me a racist for walking through an asain dominant area???


it seems that as far as people go they think only white folk are racists..everyone else is just a rights fighter!!

and i have never done anything for slavery..i give to charities to help the poor are helpless is these down rodden countires....

so the comment before is rubbish.

[USMC]

The same could be said for most of the 122 who posted for the legalization of the act. It's just a tad disgusting how a person could crusade for civil rights, equality and acceptance but not hold those same ideals for the people who don't agree with them.

I don't consider it a crusade for equality to allow those who don't believe in equality to have a say. That's just ass backwards and counter-productive.

Might not be PC of me, but I don't really give 2 ****s what homophobic unintelligent rascist hicks think about anything. They can all **** off and die for all I care.

[Kevin]

...

[Union Jack]

DUDE!! you should be HAPPY that he made a pass at you (you don't actually have to be happy,. Understandable if it freaked you out.) But get this, a lot of gay guys are worst than girls. There most be SOMETHING about you that there is to like. (not saying that you're unlikeable, though)


um ok..thanks i think!?!

it did kinda freak me out tho...plus i got taken to a gay bar by some folks who didnt know where they were going...i got asked a few times then...

it was weird in there...i kinda felt like superman without his cape..

one thing il give it tho...music was ok!!!

[USMC]

Because this generation, and all generations since slavery, have perpetuated institutional racism.


No, past generations that owned slaves and/or brought blacks here as slaves have perpetuated institutional rascism. So have people who want to dwell on it forever.

My ancestors had nothing to do with slavery in this country. Nothing. So I don't owe anyone anything. Take responsibility for your own life and how it turns out, many succesful "black" people will probably tell you the same thing. But I guess cause they got the "short end of the stick" then it was just too hard to actually make something of their lives. Please.:whatever:

[gdw]

Homosexuality is not conducive to development because it serves no function in any field of development.

It is simply, as one person put it, a "defect," that a small portion of the population is inflicted with.


Are you sure? It certainly could be considered to be a helping hand in PREVENTING over-population.

[Erzengel]

Paid what's owed? Please...
:whatever:

I don't owe anyone anything. People need to just get off their rearends and take responsibility for their own selves and stop blaming their miserable "plight" on everyone else.

You owe me $2.00. :cmad:

http://img247.echo.cx/img247/3503/paperboy1gv.jpg

[Erzengel]

you do realsie that not only white people can be racist???

there are areas of a town not too far from me that if i walked down at 11pm..they would just come out and beat on me cos im white...does that make me a racist for walking through an asain dominant area???


I'm distrustful of you round eyes. :cmad:

[USMC]

You owe me $2.00. :cmad:

http://img247.echo.cx/img247/3503/paperboy1gv.jpg


It's in the mail!!! :wow:

[Union Jack]

and it free's up more women!!!

[Union Jack]

I'm distrustful of you round eyes. :cmad:


don't be,they are nice round eyes!

[Kyalesyin]

Are you sure? It certainly could be considered to be a helping hand in PREVENTING over-population.

And considering the population problem in the world today, thats hardly a bad thing.

[Mixairian]

I never said that they were out crusading on their high horses forcing their opinions upon people, what I am saying is that they support the idea of constitutionally banning it. Which would involve the government intervention of inflicting their opinions on the rest of the nation. Fair enough if you don't support it, but to actually go as far banning the whole thing altogether is, in my view, wrong. Whatever next, perhaps the reclassfication of homosexuality being a mental illness. Yeah, I'm sure the Right wing christians will love that one. The real question here is, who decides whether, mental illness is wrong, or whether gay people should get married or not? In my, not-so-humble opinion, I believe that nobody has that right. Not even God himself.

Here is my point. We are crusading for the legalization of the act which in turn is forcing our view and opinions on the country as a whole. We are doing the same exact thing. Just because it is our opinion that it is the right thing makes what we do no better than them.

You're putting yourself and your belief on a pedestal of morale superiority. Which is no different than what some of these "Right Wing Christians" do.

My stance is that you shouldn't be here making those 26 feel "ashamed" (which your original comment I responded to was geared towards) but rather either accepting their differences of trying to have an open and earnest dialogue to see if you can change someones beliefs.

I don't consider it a crusade for equality to allow those who don't believe in equality to have a say. That's just ass backwards and counter-productive.

Might not be PC of me, but I don't really give 2 ****s what homophobic unintelligent rascist hicks think about anything. They can all **** off and die for all I care.

You're right. It's not PC. It's also not even rationale. Not all homophobes are unintellgient, racist or hicks.

Break down the word of homophobe.

Phobe, to have a fear of. Fear is not always a rational response but can cloud the judgment of rational minds.

I see no reason for a person to go about and trying to fight for their rights for equal treatment and acceptance (gay marriage) but at the same time not accept that other people have their own opinions.

This topic, gay rights, is all about judgment and who is right. People need to accept that there may be no universal correct morale stance and that neither side is right nor wrong.

If someone is against two men or women being married, so be it. That is their belief. Unless they're a friend or someone close to me, I'll not try to see if I can alter their beliefs. If they are, I'll share my stance and listen earnestly and openly to theirs (as well as accepting the possibility to change my own stance).

On a completely unrelated note. It's good to see you again USMC.

and it free's up more women!!!
Not really. Homosexuality also encapsulates Lesbianism. The ratio to single straight men to women would basically round off about the same.

[Union Jack]

well i guess its up to the straight lads to do double time with the over populating!!
:) :p

[gdw]

Oh, and Duece, all I can say is, thanks you. I am very impressed and appretiative.

Not only did you do a good job formulating your arguments, but you also showed an incredible fortitude being able to do so both involving a source of passion for you, AND exluding it and its influences in your reasonings as to your arguments.

[Union Jack]

Not really. Homosexuality also encapsulates Lesbianism. The ratio to single straight men to women would basically round off about the same.

yeah but you can watch the lesbians tho!!;) :O

[Kevin]

Yeah, we give the women back! you can have them!!:woot:

[Mixairian]

yeah but you can watch the lesbians tho!!;) :O
Technically you can watch gay males as well. As well as straight men and women. ;)

[gdw]

And considering the population problem in the world today, thats hardly a bad thing.


Actually, did you know that you can fiit everyone on the planet into New Jersey in an 8 ft sq area per person.

Obviously we can't live like that, but it gives you an idea of how much space we actually are occupying in the world, and how much space there really is out there. There is so much space that is not used, and/or is unevenly used.

Not that we should be equally everywhere on the plant, but there are plenty of places where there are more of us than should be, and other places where there are less of use than there could be reasonably.

[comicgirl]

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3998&stc=1&d=1164146478

[Union Jack]

true...but i think i'll stick with the lesbians.

even better if they were bi-sexual women.....but thats a whole other story :D

[Kyalesyin]

You wouldn't wanna watch me buddy. Not all us lesbians are pretty lookin

[Mixairian]

You wouldn't wanna watch me buddy. Not all us lesbians are pretty lookin
Warning, cliche line alert:
"Beauty is in the eye of beholder."

::Licks::

[Kevin]

I mean, when the world gets full, "Someone's" gonna be like "uh oh, gotta get rid of some people." Who do you think will be the most likely to go, and the least? Silly, i know, but I believe anything can happen.

[Kyalesyin]

Warning, cliche line alert:
"Beauty is in the eye of beholder."

::Licks::

Very true, and I've often been asked what I see in my wife... I could list but that might get obscene.

[Union Jack]

You wouldn't wanna watch me buddy. Not all us lesbians are pretty lookin


ha ha....yeah porn has really fractured the mans veiw of lesbianism..still its a pleasent thought tho!!

[USMC]

You're right. It's not PC. It's also not even rationale. Not all homophobes are unintellgient, racist or hicks.

Break down the word of homophobe.

Phobe, to have a fear of. Fear is not always a rational response but can cloud the judgment of rational minds.

I see no reason for a person to go about and trying to fight for their rights for equal treatment and acceptance (gay marriage) but at the same time not accept that other people have their own opinions.

This topic, gay rights, is all about judgment and who is right. People need to accept that there may be no universal correct morale stance and that neither side is right nor wrong.

If someone is against two men or women being married, so be it. That is their belief. Unless they're a friend or someone close to me, I'll not try to see if I can alter their beliefs. If they are, I'll share my stance and listen earnestly and openly to theirs (as well as accepting the possibility to change my own stance).

On a completely unrelated note. It's good to see you again USMC.

And you as well, Mix! :)

Thanks for responding to my rant in an un-rant like way... sorry to come off so harshly about the subject.

However, I strongly believe that homophobes are un-intelligent, at the very least. Fearing that which you don't understand is simply unintelligent. Maybe not hickish, but I think we can all agree that fear leads to hate, etc. It's cliche, but, IMO, it's very true.

I accept that other people have their own opinions, but I don't think those fearful people should be the ones making the decisions for the country. People throw around the term "morality" so loosely, and I simply don't believe that this is a moral issue. We're talking about the absolute EQUAL rights of everyone in this country, not "special" rights, or an agenda of some kind. Equal treament under the law, that's it. To me, there absolutely is a right side vs. a wrong side. The wrong side is the one that preaches about morality and equality... so long as you fit the mold of the masses. There's nothing right about that.

People that preach so loud against gay equality are the ones who have the most to hide. They're afraid, they're ashamed, and/or they are simply unintelligent.

Or they need to get laid.:heart:

[jono11]

Paid what's owed? Please...
:whatever:

I don't owe anyone anything. People need to just get off their rearends and take responsibility for their own selves and stop blaming their miserable "plight" on everyone else.Oh, hey it's the troop-jocksniffer again.

People can't just pull themselves out of poverty, not when that poverty is the result of systemic impacts and institutional oppression. That's why the poor stay poor.

Or are you just another victim-blamer who thinks the poor are poor because they're lazy and immoral, and that fewer women would be raped if they'd stop dressing ****ty?

[Kyalesyin]

ha ha....yeah porn has really fractured the mans veiw of lesbianism..still its a pleasent thought tho!!

If you ever get a chance to watch in real life, don't ask to join in. We'll probably end up laughing at you and getting on with it. No offense. Just wanted to get that cleared up after the number of guys that have offered me cash.

[Union Jack]

ha ha...i wouldnt offer,would be too shy to ask anyways......i did get the opportunity for a 3some once with 2 girls...but i turned it down cos i was seeing a girl at the time....sigh..the path not taken!!:(

[jono11]

you do realsie that not only white people can be racist???I'm not talking about individual racism. Everybody is racist. Everybody. It's a result of the way the human mind works. It's not OK, but it's a fact.

I'm talking about institutional racism, the stacking of the deck against black people, something that isn't really anybody's fault anymore, it's just built on itself and built on itself and built on itself until blacks have absolutely no chance, as a generality, of improving their situation.

and i have never done anything for slavery..i give to charities to help the poor are helpless is these down rodden countires....Admirable, but futile. Sustainable aid, not charity, is what should be pursued. Donate to Oxfam and Heifer International.

In the meantime, anybody who is white benefits from the legacy of slavery.

As nobody has logically refuted my proof thus far, it stands.

[Kyalesyin]

You probably saved yourself the humiliation. No offense.

[Erzengel]

Oh, hey it's the troop-jocksniffer again.

People can't just pull themselves out of poverty, not when that poverty is the result of systemic impacts and institutional oppression. That's why the poor stay poor.

Or are you just another victim-blamer who thinks the poor are poor because they're lazy and immoral, and that fewer women would be raped if they'd stop dressing ****ty?

And there are white, hispanics etc. in poverty as well? Why should we just help out just blacks?

[Addendum]

You wouldn't wanna watch me buddy. Not all us lesbians are pretty lookin
Which is why I watch the pornos with the hot lesbians.

[Union Jack]

heh...nah i'd have been great!!

i love the way folk can say something derogatory...then use 'no offense' to try polite it up a bit!!:)

[Mixairian]

Very true, and I've often been asked what I see in my wife... I could list but that might get obscene.
Please. By all means, don't let me hold you back. ;)
And you as well, Mix! :)

Thanks for responding to my rant in an un-rant like way... sorry to come off so harshly about the subject.

All good man. I'm in a relatively passive mood today and I do know to degree. So I can just chatty.

However, I strongly believe that homophobes are un-intelligent, at the very least. Fearing that which you don't understand is simply unintelligent. Maybe not hickish, but I think we can all agree that fear leads to hate, etc. It's cliche, but, IMO, it's very true.

I cannot argue, fear is very irrational but on same levels it is fear that protects us. It is a mechanism that both protects and is detrimental to the human condition. For example: To fear a wild animal is rational. It keeps as away from such creatures. Without fear there is the possibility to be bitten, attacked or killed.

I've always wondered if the fear towards homosexuals is one that exists to keep peoples "inner worlds" in tact. Not everyone is capable of taking a life changing event and adapting to it. It may seem minor to those of us who have accepted it as natural of the norm but what if one day you woke up and everyone in the world told you everything you felt or believed was wrong? It would be quite jarring.

For that reason I hold my apathy.

I accept that other people have their own opinions, but I don't think those fearful people should be the ones making the decisions for the country. People throw around the term "morality" so loosely, and I simply don't believe that this is a moral issue. We're talking about the absolute EQUAL rights of everyone in this country, not "special" rights, or an agenda of some kind. Equal treament under the law, that's it. To me, there absolutely is a right side vs. a wrong side. The wrong side is the one that preaches about morality and equality... so long as you fit the mold of the masses. There's nothing right about that.

The problem is this. The masses are those who are the fearful closed minded. Those of us who view our beliefs as enlightened who desire such equal rights are the minority. We just receive more attention on the news and such.

People that preach so loud against gay equality are the ones who have the most to hide. They're afraid, they're ashamed, and/or they are simply unintelligent.

Or they need to get laid.:heart:

Or maybe they have gotten laid and are ashamed, afraid and stupidfied over it. ;)

If you ever get a chance to watch in real life, don't ask to join in. We'll probably end up laughing at you and getting on with it. No offense. Just wanted to get that cleared up after the number of guys that have offered me cash.

Funny side story. There have been many female friends in my life and many I'm very attracted too. The few of my female friends that I consider attractive and I know out right are lesbians, I've not sexual interested invested to them. It's like a switch in my brain says: "not possible." and any idle flirting is just that, nothing of consequence... Sorry side mind wandering.

[Kyalesyin]

Well, I really don't want to offend you, but its probably true...

[USMC]

People can't just pull themselves out of poverty, not when that poverty is the result of systemic impacts and institutional oppression. That's why the poor stay poor.


There's plenty of blacks who've pulled themselves out of poverty to become succesful members of society.

Or are you just another victim-blamer who thinks the poor are poor because they're lazy and immoral, and that fewer women would be raped if they'd stop dressing ****ty?

Absolutely. Those who can, do. Those who can't, ******. Take responsibility for yourself, read a damn book every now and then, and quit putting your own "poor, black" circumstances on the rest of the world. It's undignified.

Everything's a choice. What you choose or don't choose is on you.

[jono11]

No, past generations that owned slaves and/or brought blacks here as slaves have perpetuated institutional rascism. So have people who want to dwell on it forever.You clearly don't understand institutional racism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

My ancestors had nothing to do with slavery in this country. Nothing. So I don't owe anyone anything.My argument has never been about who owned slaves and who didn't. You're ignoring everything I'm saying.

Take responsibility for your own life and how it turns outI do. Most people do. You honestly think there are poor people who LIKE being poor, who just want to sit around all day and ask for a handout? God, how nice it must be to be able to demonize your enemies with such falsehoods. I guess I'd be just as racist as you are if I could convince myself that there are racial groups that are inherently lazy and immoral, and that always beg handouts instead of working.

many succesful "black" people will probably tell you the same thing.Why the quote marks? Are they counterfeit black people?

But I guess cause they got the "short end of the stick" then it was just too hard to actually make something of their lives. Please.:whatever:24.4% of blacks are in poverty. Only 8.something% of whites are. You think that's because blacks just dig poverty? Or could it be something to do with systemic racial oppression?

[Mixairian]

Alright. I'm going to class now. Considering how fast this topic moves, if anyone else is gonna comment to anything more I've said, please PM me the quote and your response and I'll get back here later on. Tata. :)

[the_joker]

Here is my point. We are crusading for the legalization of the act which in turn is forcing our view and opinions on the country as a whole. We are doing the same exact thing. Just because it is our opinion that it is the right thing makes what we do no better than them.

You're putting yourself and your belief on a pedestal of morale superiority. Which is no different than what some of these "Right Wing Christians" do.

My stance is that you shouldn't be here making those 26 feel "ashamed" (which your original comment I responded to was geared towards) but rather either accepting their differences of trying to have an open and earnest dialogue to see if you can change someones beliefs.

Yes, very well. Perhaps I was a bit too hasty to jump on the pedestal of morale superiority, as you so eloquently put it. Point taken.

However, one point I would like to put across is, the people who oppose homosexuality don't have to go to the weddings or even have anything to do with it. I would like to think that a majority of us are liberal minded and support homosexual marriage. And if I am right in my assumption, then there isn't really any harm in legalising it. As like I stated earlier, I may be "wrong" with my opinion, but those who oppose it may also be wrong. Nobody can be fully right, and thus the way I see it, there should be the opportunity for homosexuals to marry. It's up to the individual whether they choose to accept it or not.

Or, a more radical alternative is to get rid of the whole institution of "marriage" altogether. So nobody, straight or gay, can get married and instead, everybody would be forced to use the civil unions thing instead.

[Hades]

you do realsie that not only white people can be racist???

there are areas of a town not too far from me that if i walked down at 11pm..they would just come out and beat on me cos im white...does that make me a racist for walking through an asain dominant area???


it seems that as far as people go they think only white folk are racists..everyone else is just a rights fighter!!

and i have never done anything for slavery..i give to charities to help the poor are helpless is these down rodden countires....

so the comment before is rubbish.

Lol, I live next to a dingy indian reserve.

This guy from town was driving through it to get home late at night.

And, a gang of indians threw something at his window, so he slammed on his breaks, then they dragged him out of his car, and beat on him.

he barely got away, by hiding in the fields. The group of men were standing around deciding if they should kill him or not. Then a woman who was with the group, but was of to the side watching shouted out "KILL THE ****ER"

So they went out looking for him. I'm suprised he survived:huh:

[jono11]

And there are white, hispanics etc. in poverty as well? Why should we just help out just blacks?A clear line of economic dependency can be traced back to slavery and its fallout. We can see why blacks, as a group are disproportionately represented in the ranks of the poor.

But yes, we should also help out the white poor, and the latino poor, and the anything poor. I call it socialism.

[USMC]

In the meantime, anybody who is white benefits from the legacy of slavery.

That's really wierd, because I was a latchkey kid with an absent father, a mother who worked 2 jobs to raise 3 boys, one of which ended up in jail, I went to several mostly black/asian schools as we had to move around alot, I was too poor to have lunch money, I was molested and beat up as a kid, my stepfather sold and did drugs in-between beatings, and I was on welfare for a time.

Yet somehow I actually made a choice to read, go to school (which was hard enough to pay for, since poor whites usually don't get the same financial help that all minorities do get), and make something of myself.

You're a piece of work... no better than those you cry foul against for your own circumstances. You're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

And anyone else that can't take responsibility for themselves is the same way.:whatever:

[jono11]

There's plenty of blacks who've pulled themselves out of poverty to become succesful members of society.It's documented that this is harder to do for blacks than for whites. Furthermore, most of those that are currently not in poverty come from families that have not been in poverty for a long time, same as with any non-poor. There is virtually no upward mobility in this country, and even less with the black community specifically. All this is documented by sociological study after sociological study.

Absolutely. Those who can, do. Those who can't, ******. Take responsibility for yourself, read a damn book every now and then, and quit putting your own "poor, black" circumstances on the rest of the world. It's undignified.

Everything's a choice. What you choose or don't choose is on you.You should go visit a ghetto sometime, and see for yourself all the lazy black people who work three jobs just to provide barely-nutritional food for their children because they were thrown off welfare. Real lazy, they are.

Or you could visit a Palestinian village, and see how lazy all those poor people are. Working almost nonstop, yet unable to get out of poverty because of the same systemic oppression you refuse to believe in. Or go to Africa, and tell them all how easily they could just get over the epidemics of diseases that they can't treat because they can't afford medical care because they don't have any money because there's no laws protecting workers, because of the same systemic oppression that you refuse to believe in. Go on, tell them all. They'd love to hear it, I'm sure, just as long as they could beat you in the face afterward.

Ignorant bastards like you don't get to talk about poverty as if it was something easily solved by its victims. Not until you've been there, not until you've seen it with your own eyes.

You want to feel good about yourself, and your own success, so you tear down those who don't meet your standard of living, so you can feel like you've achieved something. You don't want to feel responsible for anyone's suffering, so you ridicule the idea that you might have a hand in it. You make me sick. You and the rest of this apathetic, bored, racist, hateful, easily amused, easily led, unquestioning, uncaring, irresponsible, failed de-mock-racy.

[USMC]

You clearly don't understand institutional racism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

Dude, go cut and paste you BS to someone who cares.

My argument has never been about who owned slaves and who didn't. You're ignoring everything I'm saying.

As you are doing.

I do. Most people do. You honestly think there are poor people who LIKE being poor, who just want to sit around all day and ask for a handout?

Yes, I do.

God, how nice it must be to be able to demonize your enemies with such falsehoods.

What enemies? What are you talking about?

I guess I'd be just as racist as you are if I could convince myself that there are racial groups that are inherently lazy and immoral, and that always beg handouts instead of working.

I never said poor blacks do that, I said poor PEOPLE WHO DO THIS are a waste. I've already pointed out that people are certainly capable of changing their lives for the better, if they CHOOSE to. Your argument is for blacks, so, ya, I said blacks. But my belief goes to ALL poor people who feel they've gotten the shaft. YOU want to make it a race thing, when it clearly is not.

Why the quote marks? Are they counterfeit black people?

No, to humor you, because you want to keep it as a black issue, instead of a "people" issue.

24.4% of blacks are in poverty. Only 8.something% of whites are. You think that's because blacks just dig poverty? Or could it be something to do with systemic racial oppression?

No, it doesn't have to do with either one. Not everything only has 2 choices. But keep thinkit it does, I'm sure you'll get far in life waiting for Uncle Sam to send you that check you so richly deserve.

[jono11]

Lol, I live next to a dingy indian reserve.

This guy from town was driving through it to get home late at night.

And, a gang of indians threw something at his window, so he slammed on his breaks, then they dragged him out of his car, and beat on him.

he barely got away, by hiding in the fields. The group of men were standing around deciding if they should kill him or not. Then a woman who was with the group, but was of to the side watching shouted out "KILL THE ****ER"

So they went out looking for him. I'm suprised he survived:huh:South Dakota?

[Erzengel]

You make me sick. You and the rest of this apathetic, bored, racist, hateful, easily amused, easily led, unquestioning, uncaring, irresponsible, failed de-mock-racy.
Off topic for a second.....

For someone who initially said that he didn't want to start a flamewar, you're doing a fine job being confrontational, and antagonistic. :huh:

[Union Jack]

You should go visit a ghetto sometime, and see for yourself all the lazy black people who work three jobs just to provide barely-nutritional food for their children because they were thrown off welfare. Real lazy, they are.

Or you could visit a Palestinian village, and see how lazy all those poor people are. Working almost nonstop, yet unable to get out of poverty because of the same systemic oppression you refuse to believe in. Or go to Africa, and tell them all how easily they could just get over the epidemics of diseases that they can't treat because they can't afford medical care because they don't have any money because there's no laws protecting workers, because of the same systemic oppression that you refuse to believe in. Go on, tell them all. They'd love to hear it, I'm sure, just as long as they could beat you in the face afterward.

Ignorant bastards like you don't get to talk about poverty as if it was something easily solved by its victims. Not until you've been there, not until you've seen it with your own eyes.

You want to feel good about yourself, and your own success, so you tear down those who don't meet your standard of living, so you can feel like you've achieved something. You don't want to feel responsible for anyone's suffering, so you ridicule the idea that you might have a hand in it. You make me sick. You and the rest of this apathetic, bored, racist, hateful, easily amused, easily led, unquestioning, uncaring, irresponsible, failed de-mock-racy.

wooo harsh..some one has baggage...

[USMC]

It's documented that this is harder to do for blacks than for whites. Furthermore, most of those that are currently not in poverty come from families that have not been in poverty for a long time, same as with any non-poor. There is virtually no upward mobility in this country, and even less with the black community specifically. All this is documented by sociological study after sociological study.

You should go visit a ghetto sometime, and see for yourself all the lazy black people who work three jobs just to provide barely-nutritional food for their children because they were thrown off welfare. Real lazy, they are.

Or you could visit a Palestinian village, and see how lazy all those poor people are. Working almost nonstop, yet unable to get out of poverty because of the same systemic oppression you refuse to believe in. Or go to Africa, and tell them all how easily they could just get over the epidemics of diseases that they can't treat because they can't afford medical care because they don't have any money because there's no laws protecting workers, because of the same systemic oppression that you refuse to believe in. Go on, tell them all. They'd love to hear it, I'm sure, just as long as they could beat you in the face afterward.

Ignorant bastards like you don't get to talk about poverty as if it was something easily solved by its victims. Not until you've been there, not until you've seen it with your own eyes.

You want to feel good about yourself, and your own success, so you tear down those who don't meet your standard of living, so you can feel like you've achieved something. You don't want to feel responsible for anyone's suffering, so you ridicule the idea that you might have a hand in it. You make me sick. You and the rest of this apathetic, bored, racist, hateful, easily amused, easily led, unquestioning, uncaring, irresponsible, failed de-mock-racy.


**** you, I've been there, I grew up there. Go whine to someone who will send you a check to relieve your suffering.

There's lazy poor people, and there's those who aren't. You're the one lumping everyone in a pile, not me. If that makes it easier for you to "demonize your enemies", more power to ya, pal. But you won't get any sympathy from me.

Take a trip to "All Blacks Who's Lives Have Been Horribly Destroyed By The White Man" boards, if that's how you feel. Your Air-of-Superiority over the rest of us is stinking up the place.

[USMC]

I know, jono, it's taking you so long to post because you're busy typing out some long rant against me and my "racist" views...

Don't bother, I'm not posting against your ridiculous rebuttals anymore... :whatever:

Later.

[jono11]

That's really wierd, because I was a latchkey kid with an absent father, a mother who worked 2 jobs to raise 3 boys, one of which ended up in jail, I went to several mostly black/asian schools as we had to move around alot, I was too poor to have lunch money, I was molested and beat up as a kid, my stepfather sold and did drugs in-between beatings, and I was on welfare for a time.And look at you. You're doing fine. Because you're white. The system is stacked in your favor. Please read up on sociology before you come around tell me there's no such thing as institutional racism.

Yet somehow I actually made a choice to read, go to school (which was hard enough to pay for, since poor whites usually don't get the same financial help that all minorities do get)Because whites don't need it as much. Being favored by the system and all. But I do support class-based affirmative action, because all poor people deserve a fair chance at education, and not all of them can just up and defeat poverty like you and your Jesus-like self did.

I know you don't care about actual facts and proof, but I'll list it anyway: The Population Study Center of the University of Michigan has determined that whites have significantly greater upward mobility than blacks do. The Journal of Social Issues reported similar findings. The Center for Economic and Policy Research, in the article, "Horatio Alger is dead," found the same thing, saying that one of the key reasons for the last 30 years' decrease in upward mobility is race.

You're a piece of work... no better than those you cry foul against for your own circumstances. You're part of the problem, not part of the solution.My circumstances? I'm a white middle-class ethnic half-Jew/half-Mennonite. Few people stand to gain a whole lot less than me from reparations. Why doesn't anybody notice that? I keep saying it over and over again, but people still want to think I'm black. Does it **** with your head that much that a white person would support equality?

And anyone else that can't take responsibility for themselves is the same way.:whatever:What's funny is, I agree with you on this point. Personal responsibility is paramount to an effective society. One of my biggest pet peeves is parents who can't take responsibility for their children, and insist on governmental regulation of our lives so that their precious children, who aren't allowed to be children anymore, won't be negatively affected. You're so afraid that your child will grow up gay? Then teach them not to be, whiner. You're afraid your child's at risk for becoming violent? Teach the damn kid not to be. It's your kid, parent it yourself, you know?

I am a huge believer in personal responsibility. A person's actions are ultimately in their own hands. I buy into that particular brand of existentialism wholeheartedly. But only a person's actions are in that person's hands. The reactions of the system, and of other people, are not in the hands of the affected individual.

The poor, despite your misguided, dehumanizing beliefs, don't want to be poor. The actions they take, such as desperately seeking jobs, speak to this. I recognize that perhaps your experience growing up with that minority sliver of the poor may have soured your opinion toward those in poverty, but look beyond your own world. You're not the only person who ever lived.

[Hades]

South Dakota?
Nope.

[jono11]

Off topic for a second.....

For someone who initially said that he didn't want to start a flamewar, you're doing a fine job being confrontational, and antagonistic. :huh:Didn't say I didn't want to start one. I said I was engaged in one, and that it wasn't the place to discuss the intricacies of a potential reparations policy.

That said, I am certainly quite angry. People like him, and the country I live in, do make me sick and depressed.

[USMC]

And look at you. You're doing fine. Because you're white. The system is stacked in your favor. Please read up on sociology before you come around tell me there's no such thing as institutional racism.

Because whites don't need it as much. Being favored by the system and all. But I do support class-based affirmative action, because all poor people deserve a fair chance at education, and not all of them can just up and defeat poverty like you and your Jesus-like self did.

I know you don't care about actual facts and proof, but I'll list it anyway: The Population Study Center of the University of Michigan has determined that whites have significantly greater upward mobility than blacks do. The Journal of Social Issues reported similar findings. The Center for Economic and Policy Research, in the article, "Horatio Alger is dead," found the same thing, saying that one of the key reasons for the last 30 years' decrease in upward mobility is race.

My circumstances? I'm a white middle-class ethnic half-Jew/half-Mennonite. Few people stand to gain a whole lot less than me from reparations. Why doesn't anybody notice that? I keep saying it over and over again, but people still want to think I'm black. Does it **** with your head that much that a white person would support equality?

What's funny is, I agree with you on this point. Personal responsibility is paramount to an effective society. One of my biggest pet peeves is parents who can't take responsibility for their children, and insist on governmental regulation of our lives so that their precious children, who aren't allowed to be children anymore, won't be negatively affected. You're so afraid that your child will grow up gay? Then teach them not to be, whiner. You're afraid your child's at risk for becoming violent? Teach the damn kid not to be. It's your kid, parent it yourself, you know?

I am a huge believer in personal responsibility. A person's actions are ultimately in their own hands. I buy into that particular brand of existentialism wholeheartedly. But only a person's actions are in that person's hands. The reactions of the system, and of other people, are not in the hands of the affected individual.

The poor, despite your misguided, dehumanizing beliefs, don't want to be poor. The actions they take, such as desperately seeking jobs, speak to this. I recognize that perhaps your experience growing up with that minority sliver of the poor may have soured your opinion toward those in poverty, but look beyond your own world. You're not the only person who ever lived.


I'll rebut my rebuttal against not responding to your rebuttals.

You're white, now I know. Thanks.

Doesn't change my opinion one bit.

Later.

[jono11]

Dude, go cut and paste you BS to someone who cares.How sad to be so certain that you are right that you can never listen to someone else.

As you are doing.I'm responding individually to everything you're saying. If I missed something, let me know.

Yes, I do.I guess I probably knew you'd say that.

What enemies? What are you talking about?The poor that you hate with such vitriol.

I never said poor blacks do that, I said poor PEOPLE WHO DO THIS are a waste. I've already pointed out that people are certainly capable of changing their lives for the better, if they CHOOSE to. Your argument is for blacks, so, ya, I said blacks. But my belief goes to ALL poor people who feel they've gotten the shaft. YOU want to make it a race thing, when it clearly is not.When nonwhites are disproportionately represented in the ranks of the poor, it is a race thing.

No, to humor you, because you want to keep it as a black issue, instead of a "people" issue.Racial issues are people issues. Everyone should be concerned about racial equality.

No, it doesn't have to do with either one. Not everything only has 2 choices.So blacks aren't disproportionately poor because they're lazy. But it also has nothing to do with racial oppression? What is it then?

But keep thinkit it does, I'm sure you'll get far in life waiting for Uncle Sam to send you that check you so richly deserve.Again, I'm not black. I don't know where people got that idea. I do not deserve a check from the government, and I don't expect to be getting one unless Bush passes another tax cut for the rich, in which case I'll get a couple hundred bucks, since I'm middle class.

[jono11]

wooo harsh..some one has baggage...You get that kind of baggage when you have to watch homes being bulldozed and three-year-old children being buried because of the actions of people who call you "brother."

[jono11]

**** you, I've been there, I grew up there. Go whine to someone who will send you a check to relieve your suffering.Not suffering. I've got it really easy, actually. But wasn't sending people a check to relieve suffering the entire platform of Bush in 2000?

By the way, do you think that the government has a responsibility to help people in disaster areas, such as post-Katrina New Orleans? Or do you think that they should have to overcome their suffering on their own?

There's lazy poor people, and there's those who aren't. You're the one lumping everyone in a pile, not me.I'm quoting statistics. The majority of the poor are working. The majority of the poor do not want to languish in poverty. The majority of the poor are not lazy.

Take a trip to "All Blacks Who's Lives Have Been Horribly Destroyed By The White Man" boards, if that's how you feel. Your Air-of-Superiority over the rest of us is stinking up the place.I'm not black, so I don't know if I'd fit in at a board for black people.

[jono11]

I know, jono, it's taking you so long to post because you're busy typing out some long rant against me and my "racist" views...

Don't bother, I'm not posting against your ridiculous rebuttals anymore... :whatever:

Later.I know, it's so ridiculous. Me with my silly "facts" and "studies that prove things" and "statistics that demonstrate my points," vs. you with your hateful opinions.

[jono11]

Nope.Huh. Heard the exact same story from one of my buddies who lives in SoDak.

[Hades]

Huh. Heard the exact same story from one of my buddies who lives in SoDak.
Hmmm, strange.

BUt things like that have happend in town before.

Can't go anyway without seeing empy listerine bottles.


Gay, jewish/minonite huh? strange mix. How did that come about

[Batty for Bats!]

..Totally.

[thedeadite]

I'm not black, so I don't know if I'd fit in at a board for black people.

just for reference...watch yourself calling people racists..when the quote above can be considered racist itself.

[SLVRSR4]

This is reminding me of the guilded age. Where god saw poor people unworthy and that is why they are poor. God isn't real but i felt like saying that

[batman7289]

Close

[vibeke_T]

No. Don't close it!

[terry78]

If anybody closes this thread, that just proves that people are too immature to discuss these issues. If that's the case, you may as well close every thread in community.

[thedeadite]

i agree...the thread has tread into some sketchy territory here and there..but has remained a pretty cival discussion throughout.

[Sarge 2.0]

batman7289 is a moron, don't worry about it.

[batman7289]

gay is gay

[thedeadite]

does that even make sense??

[Crowforge]

gay is hot

[Muze]

"Being gay the same as being black?!"

only in the case of a black individual being gay (and there are many). one group is subjected to overt oppression. the other has, nowadays, experienced a more covert form (institutionalized racism). neither group is doing as well as it should be; civil rights-wise. the tougher question to answer would be, "Being black & gay the same as being white & gay?" or even, "being black and gay the same as being black?" black people who stick to their own have a little more insulation from overt racism than do gay black people who are often victimized by people who share their skin color. i can't speak for all black communities but i know certain members of my community who equate homosexuality with pedophilia and both with devil worship. to the black posters who dismiss the gay community as not having suffered enough, imagine if your black skin marked you as a pedophile. how do you think that or having to "wear a mask" all day would affect your self image? who would you be if you could never be yourself?

[jono11]

Gay, jewish/minonite huh? strange mix. How did that come aboutDid I say I was gay? That was a typo, if I did. I'm a fan of the sex-having that doesn't take place in buttholes.

Anyway, Jews and Mennonites have quite a bit in common, actually, and intermarriages were frequent in the old country when they were relegated to the same ghettos. It's why a lot of Mennonites "look Jewish," with prominent noses and dark, curly hair.

Note: don't confuse Mennonite with Amish. The Amish are to Mennonites what Hasidim (the stereotypical New York diamond merchants with the dark clothing, hats, beards, and sidecurls) are to Jews.

just for reference...watch yourself calling people racists..when the quote above can be considered racist itself.The man suggested I go to a board for All Blacks Who Have Been Screwed By White People or something like that.

I reminded him that I'm white. And the fictional board he mentioned was specifically for black people. How is it racist, to say that a white person is not black, and would not fit in at a place that is, by its name, only open to black people?

That's just a little more tolerance than I can tolerate.

gay is gayWell folks, that's the word from the school of Objectivism. Brought to you by Steve Ditko's greatest little-known character, Mr. A, and some nutbag on a message board, Batman7289!

[jono11]

does that even make sense??It makes so much sense, one has to wonder why it needed to be said. I mean, a philosophical discussion of the merits of objectivism, that A is A, and B is B, and that there is no room for relativism and so on and so forth, that's one thing. But to remind us all that you're gay if and only if you are gay, seems unnecessary.

"Being gay the same as being black?!"

only in the case of a black individual being gay (and there are many). one group is subjected to overt oppression. the other has, nowadays, experienced a more covert form (institutionalized racism). neither group is doing as well as it should be; civil rights-wise. the tougher question to answer would be, "Being black & gay the same as being white & gay?" or even, "being black and gay the same as being black?" black people who stick to their own have a little more insulation from overt racism than do gay black people who are often victimized by people who share their skin color. i can't speak for all black communities but i know certain members of my community who equate homosexuality with pedophilia and both with devil worship. to the black posters who dismiss the gay community as not having suffered enough, imagine if your black skin marked you as a pedophile. how do you think that or having to "wear a mask" all day would affect your self image? who would you be if you could never be yourself?Good answer. Which means that it was probably a good question.

Maybe you can explain white privilege to the mindless rabble here. They don't seem to be grasping it.

[Spider-Bite]

It makes so much sense, one has to wonder why it needed to be said. I mean, a philosophical discussion of the merits of objectivism, that A is A, and B is B, and that there is no room for relativism and so on and so forth, that's one thing. But to remind us all that you're gay if and only if you are gay, seems unnecessary.

Good answer. Which means that it was probably a good question.

Maybe you can explain white privilege to the mindless rabble here. They don't seem to be grasping it.

you need to quit blaming the entire race for the actions of part of the race. you have become that which you opposed.

[Erzengel]

No need to get on your high horse or be condescending.

A lot of people here just happen to disagree with some of what you have to say.

[Spider-Bite]

No need to get on your high horse or be condescending.

A lot of people here just happen to disagree with some of what you have to say.

who me or Jono? I just despise racism, and I'm not ashamed of it. This guy is telling me I should be punished for being white and blacks should be rewarded for being black.

I never have nor would own a slave. I had nothing to do with it at all. I never inherited any money from slave owners or from anybody at all. My financial situation is freaking horrible, and he's telling me that blacks should be entitled to take my money. He's no different from the white slave owners or the black slave owners or the chinese slave owners.

[Erzengel]

who me or Jono? I just despise racism, and I'm not ashamed of it. This guy is telling me I should be punished for being white and blacks should be rewarded for being black.

I never have nor would own a slave. I had nothing to do with it at all. I never inherited any money from slave owners or from anybody at all. My financial situation is freaking horrible, and he's telling me that blacks should be entitled to take my money. He's no different from the white slave owners or the black slave owners or the chinese slave owners.

Next time don't get in between my post and the post I'm talking about then. :cwink:

[deemar325]

I think black people have suffered more than gay people...
You can hide your sexuality, but you cant hide your skin color.
Also, sexuality is a BEHAVIOR. Skin color is not. It's not the same. Thanks.
So, do not compare Civil Rights struggles to gay rights. Thats silly. Black people just wanted to go somewhere that their white counterparts went..to the movie theatre and actually see the movie, not sit far away in the balcony. They wanted to drink from a proper water fount and not a bird bath. They wanted to know that they could venture out from their house without being lynched, castrated, raped or burned. They wanted to know that they were human. They wanted to know that they were smart and could get an education and achieve things. They wanted to be treated better than dogs. They wanted to erase the pain of 400 years of bondage. They wanted people to realize that they are not their skin color.

Clap..Clap..

I think that about sums it up to me, you can hide your 'gayness' me? I got a 'All year tan' that ain't washing off.

[deemar325]

"Being gay the same as being black?!"

only in the case of a black individual being gay (and there are many). one group is subjected to overt oppression. the other has, nowadays, experienced a more covert form (institutionalized racism). neither group is doing as well as it should be; civil rights-wise. the tougher question to answer would be, "Being black & gay the same as being white & gay?" or even, "being black and gay the same as being black?" black people who stick to their own have a little more insulation from overt racism than do gay black people who are often victimized by people who share their skin color. i can't speak for all black communities but i know certain members of my community who equate homosexuality with pedophilia and both with devil worship. to the black posters who dismiss the gay community as not having suffered enough, imagine if your black skin marked you as a pedophile. how do you think that or having to "wear a mask" all day would affect your self image? who would you be if you could never be yourself?

I see your point and yeah gays catch crap, (Damn that's a bad phrase..) but at the end of the day gay can conceal their orientation most blacks can't hide their skin (Unless your Vin Diesel).

[chaseter]

Gay people are having a lot more fun that the African American race did back before civil rights. Gays don't sit at the back of the restaurant, only drink from a nasty fountain, don't get a proper education, etc...The only thing homosexuals cannot do in today's society is marry. Other than that, no...being gay is not like being black. The black man/woman has been oppressed for centuries and it is still sadly prevalent. A gay white male probably still has it better off than a black male in certain situations.

[terry78]

I think that's where the main issue with comparisons come from. Unless a gay guy is blatantly flaming, no one will know he's gay unless he outs himself on principle.

[Sarge 2.0]

Gay people are having a lot more fun that the African American race did back before civil rights. Gays don't sit at the back of the restaurant, only drink from a nasty fountain, don't get a proper education, etc...The only thing homosexuals cannot do in today's society is marry. Other than that, no...being gay is not like being black. The black man/woman has been oppressed for centuries and it is still sadly prevalent. A gay white male probably still has it better off than a black male in certain situations.Gays are still ridiculed, abused, and discriminated against in todays society. If you can't see that, you've got blinders on.

[deemar325]

It's not the same.

similiar but the no comparison.

[chaseter]

Gays are still ridiculed, abused, and discriminated against in todays society. If you can't see that, you've got blinders on.
Last time I checked...the gays weren't driven to slavery for over a century and beaten in streets. Sure gays don't have it perfect...but they are no where near where the black society was. If you can't see that...you have blinders on. Hell, even some other races, and sexual orientations are still ridiculed, abused, and discriminated just as the gays are. Gays have it no where near as bad as African Americans did...period.

[Sarge 2.0]

Last time I checked...the gays weren't driven to slavery for over a century and beaten in streets. Sure gays don't have it perfect...but they are no where near where the black society was. If you can't see that...you have blinders on. Hell, even some other races, and sexual orientations are still ridiculed, abused, and discriminated just as the gays are. Gays have it no where near as bad as African Americans did...period.I wasn't aware that it was a competition. Trying to say one evil is more evil than another evil is absurdity of the highest order.

[Muze]

I see your point and yeah gays catch crap, (Damn that's a bad phrase..) but at the end of the day gay can conceal their orientation most blacks can't hide their skin (Unless your Vin Diesel).

some can, sure. but you're telling me that you've never pegged a person for being gay before? conversely, you've never seen a black guy who has confirmed and is totally accepted by white people? either way, not having the freedom to be yourself would suck. i don't think gay individuals should necessarily attempt to identify their movement with the black movement. why? because it's presumptious. better to just let straight black people volunteer their assistance. there are racist homosexuals and homophobic black people, afterall.

I think that's where the main issue with comparisons come from. Unless a gay guy is blatantly flaming, no one will know he's gay unless he outs himself on principle.

you'll know when the guy never marries or gets uneasy when you invite him to a strip joint. you'll know if he accidentally checks out another guy the same way you might accidentally check out a hot woman. right?

Last time I checked...the gays weren't driven to slavery for over a century and beaten in streets.



of course not, on that first point. blacks were only chosen because they were more resistent (than native americans) to specific diseases and more used to working out in the hot sun. gays aren't a group of indivduals from one part of the world. it wouldn't have made sense to look for and enslave them. but, yeah, they were beaten in the streets. i know you've heard about Matthew Shepherd. or how about the origins of the word ******? and, as mentioned, gays were targeted during the holocaust as well. the difference is that they weren't all in one spot where they could be exploited like Africans; convenient to victimize.

[chaseter]

I wasn't aware that it was a competition. Trying to say one evil is more evil than another evil is absurdity of the highest order.
Read the thread title...what does it say?

[Sarge 2.0]

Read the thread title...what does it say?I'm aware of what the thread title says. You're making a competition out of the experiences of the gay community and the past experiences of the African-Americans. I'm sorry if you can't see the stupidity in that.

[chaseter]

I'm aware of what the thread title says. You're making a competition out of the experiences of the gay community and the past experiences of the African-Americans. I'm sorry if you can't see the stupidity in that.
You are saying that gays have had the same experience as the black community has and that they are parallel and comparable...that is stupidity. Lets take it further and say that gays have had it as bad as the Jewish religion has had over the years. Or how about how the gays were driven and murdered on the Trail of Tears like the Native Americans. And how the homosexuals were forced into slavery. The black community has had it far worse than the homosexual community. To say they are the same is ridiculous.

[Colossal Spoons]

Are you trying to reason with an individual who would rather you were dead, or enslaved?

Yeah, guess that was foolish of me. I just don't get her.

[Muze]

Maybe you can explain white privilege to the mindless rabble here. They don't seem to be grasping it.

it's less 'white privilege' than 'black burden.' white people don't usually have to wonder if their mistreatment is race related. they don't have to wonder if they are being hired to fill a quota or unfairly singled out because of ethnicity. there exists some deep psychological scarring because of slavery. white people can say that slavery happened a long time ago but what they are missing is that the slaves didn't forget what happened when they had children. their children didn't forget what happened to their parents. so on and so on. from a young age, many black people are exposed to two different versions of this history; that told by their parents and a sanitized version in school text books. it's hard to grow up as a black kid and not be bothered by the history of your own people. i won't touch upon economic situations because there are plenty of poor white people.

[Sarge 2.0]

You are saying that gays have had the same experience as the black community has and that they are parallel and comparable...that is stupidity. Lets take it further and say that gays have had it as bad as the Jewish religion has had over the years. Or how about how the gays were driven and murdered on the Trail of Tears like the Native Americans. And how the homosexuals were forced into slavery. The black community has had it far worse than the homosexual community. To say they are the same is ridiculous.Jesus Christ.

Evil is evil. Negative experiences are negative experiences. Trying to say the discrimination felt by one community is worse than the discrimination felt by another is just as evil at its core as discrimination itself. Why do you feel the need to proclaim the injustices that were experienced by your ancestors as more worthy of note and sympathy than the injustices that are currently being experienced by the gay community? It shouldn't offend you because

A.) Neither you nor any family members that you currently know are or have been slaves. You did not experience these injustices and horrors, and they are not going on currently.

B.)The discrimination, violence (gay bashing), and ridicule (it has become ingrained in to our culture) directed towards the gay community is STILL AN EVIL. It is no more or less worthy of note or consideration than the hardships experienced by African-Americans before and after the abolition of slavery.

[chaseter]

Jesus Christ.

Evil is evil. Negative experiences are negative experiences. Trying to say the discrimination felt by one community is worse than the discrimination felt by another is just as evil at its core as discrimination itself. Why do you feel the need to proclaim the injustices that were experienced by your ancestors as more worthy of note and sympathy than the injustices that are currently being experienced by the gay community? It shouldn't offend you because

A.) Neither you nor any family members that you currently know are or have been slaves. You did not experience these injustices and horrors, and they are not going on currently.

B.)The discrimination, violence (gay bashing), and ridicule (it has become ingrained in to our culture) directed towards the gay community is STILL AN EVIL. It is no more or less worthy of note or consideration than the hardships experienced by African-Americans before and after the abolition of slavery.
Did I ever once say it wasn't evil. Did I ever once say what the gay community is going through isn't wrong? No. Read the thread title...it says that 'Being gay the same as being black?' I said no, becuase I feel it is not. I feel that the black community has gone through a hell of a lot more sh** that the gay community has, partially because being gay is a growing community and we live in better times. I never once said the gays have it easy...read my post above. More people have died over civil rights than they have over gay rights. Gays are fighting for the right to marriage. African Americans fought for the right to vote, the right to own property, the right to live freely. A gay white man could more than likely get any job he wanted 40 years ago...do you think a black man could? No. Please quit skewing my posts and making them sound like I am preaching against gays.

[Muze]

Jesus Christ.

Evil is evil. Negative experiences are negative experiences. Trying to say the discrimination felt by one community is worse than the discrimination felt by another is just as evil at its core as discrimination itself.

this i agree with

A.) Neither you nor any family members that you currently know are or have been slaves. You did not experience these injustices and horrors, and they are not going on currently.

this is just presumptious of you. segregation was still alive in Lousiana when my parents were growing up. my dad actually got a chance to go to a desegregated school in his senior year with a number of other students. the white kids threw rocks at them as their bus arrived. he was routinely harrassed and attacked by white kids. i've been called "******" on more than one occassion. i grew up among racist white kids (racism is also handed down; go figure). a fourth of my family were around for the Katrina disaster; a race and poverty-based disaster (imo).

B.)The discrimination, violence (gay bashing), and ridicule (it has become ingrained in to our culture) directed towards the gay community is STILL AN EVIL. It is no more or less worthy of note or consideration than the hardships experienced by African-Americans before and after the abolition of slavery.

i agree with this.

[deemar325]

some can, sure. but you're telling me that you've never pegged a person for being gay before? conversely, you've never seen a black guy who has confirmed and is totally accepted by white people? either way, not having the freedom to be yourself would suck. i don't think gay individuals should necessarily attempt to identify their movement with the black movement. why? because it's presumptious. better to just let straight black people volunteer their assistance. there are racist homosexuals and homophobic black people, afterall.

Yeah I have, but there are some 'sensitive' men who seem gay but aren't. Confirmed usually means 'Non-threating/agreeable' black person who is so concerned with pleasing his/her white buddies it's sad.




you'll know when the guy never marries or gets uneasy when you invite him to a strip joint. you'll know if he accidentally checks out another guy the same way you might accidentally check out a hot woman. right?





of course not, on that first point. blacks were only chosen because they were more resistent (than native americans) to specific diseases and more used to working out in the hot sun. gays aren't a group of indivduals from one part of the world. it wouldn't have made sense to look for and enslave them. but, yeah, they were beaten in the streets. i know you've heard about Matthew Shepherd. or how about the origins of the word ******? and, as mentioned, gays were targeted during the holocaust as well. the difference is that they weren't all in one spot where they could be exploited like Africans; convenient to victimize.

True enough.

[Outsiderzedge]

actually they are the product of our present limitations, and the means by which to break them.
so they are more the product of our potential.

Art and imagination are manifestations of out inadequate ability to compute solutions outright.

It is possible to break some present limitations through their use as evident by past example, but is ultimately inefficient and an ineffective way to use intellectual facility.

[Outsiderzedge]

LOL, I was actually getting interested in your POV, then suddenly realized you want the human race to become robots!!!

HAHAHA, nevermind, nothing you say can be taken seriously anymore, you're like something out of a Bradbury novel!!! :D

Our minds are, in essense, computing machines with highly sophisticated, but inefficient programs and a weak processing unit. Art and imagination are products of this limited computational system.

[Outsiderzedge]

Make no mistake. Once the first superhuman artificial intelligence is created and allowed to improve upon itself, it will become very clear how backwards and inefficient the human model of thinking is.

[Mr Sparkle]

Art and imagination are manifestations of out inadequate ability to compute solutions outright.

It is possible to break some present limitations through their use as evident by past example, but is ultimately inefficient and an ineffective way to use intellectual facility.

even if it's inneficient, it's hardly just a manifestation of man's limitations.

[War Lord]

No need to get indignant.

But I'm curious, how would you go about handing out money?

And how much and for how long?

What measures would you recommend so not anybody could go in and get a check?

What do you do for mulattos?

Where would they pick up this money and would it have to be in person?

Is it a one shot deal with the money?

One of my points is the grand scale of this idea is just extremely difficult to do and I think it's a lot of wasted money just to organize this even without the payments to blacks.

Not to mention that if this generation is paid off, why doesn't the next generation receive anything?

Also, when does it stop?

[deemar325]

I'm not worried about reparations, but a nice tax break on buying a home would be nice for African-Americans.

[War Lord]

1) what's a better way of healing the legacy of slavery? I'm open to ideas that would work better.
2) it's not stupid to rationalize slavery if you're a Nazi.

The Jews look bad? Really? I don't feel bad. Is there seriously some kind of trend in the media of blaming Jews for Richards' words? Wow.

The best way for blacks to heal from the legacy of slavery is for them to get their act together and get that education that's available to everybody and any possible lingering effects that slavery might have on the black population will eventually disappear.

[War Lord]

I'm not worried about reparations, but a nice tax break on buying a home would be nice for African-Americans.

And when does that stop?

Why you and not your child?

Why you and your child, but not your grandchild?

[Outsiderzedge]

even if it's inneficient, it's hardly just a manifestation of man's limitations.

Imagination is simply the faculty of forming mental images or concepts of what is not actually present to the senses; the probing of the possible. It's only function is to provide options for further developmental thought for a computing machine (the human mind) that lacks the means to compute the feasibility and usefulness of those possibilities outright.

It is, in fact and by property, a direct manifestation and development of the computing limits of the human model of computing.

[War Lord]

no, not all of them mein freulain (whatever), there's not way to know for sure either way. again, to look upon slavery as a life extending gift for blacks is the height if retardosity.

Actually it's pretty much correct. Europeans didn't have the immunity to go into the heart of Africa to collect slaves themselves and relied on Africans to collect the slaves for them.

[Mr Sparkle]

Imagination is simply the faculty of forming mental images or concepts of what is not actually present to the senses; the probing of the possible. It's only function is to provide options for further developmental thought for a computing machine (the human mind) that lacks the means to compute the feasibility and usefulness of those possibilities outright.

It is, in fact and by property, a direct manifestation and development of computing limits of the human model of computing.

It's PRESENT limits.
and while inneficent like you said, it has proven also conducive to more things and different views that lead to other discoveries.
so again. we disagree on it's importance.
phylosopy and art however, remain colored by the human experience, the human experience includes sexuality.

[Outsiderzedge]

Actually it's pretty much correct. Europeans didn't have the immunity to go into the heart of Africa to collect slaves themselves and relied on Africans to collect the slaves for them.

Someones been reading too much wikipedia... :p

[War Lord]

You'd like all African americans to ignore the intent of slavery?

I think all African-Americans need to get over it and get on with life. Accept that it's part of your past, just like slavery is part of everybody's past and move on.

[War Lord]

Female.

You wanna ****?

[War Lord]

Because this generation, and all generations since slavery, have perpetuated institutional racism.

The best way to cure any inbuilt racism is for those who think they're discriminated against to succeed in life. It's pretty hard to think somebody is inferior when they've made a success in their life.

[War Lord]

Someones been reading too much wikipedia... :p

Thomas Sowell, actually.

[deemar325]

And when does that stop?

Why you and not your child?

Why you and your child, but not your grandchild?

Dude your Canadian!

Why the intense interest?

Anyway, if Native Americans can get casino's why not blacks getting their 40 acres? Plus we'd still be paying for it only at a cheaper rate.

I see your point WL, but honestly for me the 40 acres and a mule was the one thing promised to us yet was denied to us.

It's selfish yes, but hey 300 years of free labor should be worth something even if it's to the current generation.

[War Lord]

Oh, hey it's the troop-jocksniffer again.

People can't just pull themselves out of poverty, not when that poverty is the result of systemic impacts and institutional oppression. That's why the poor stay poor.

Or are you just another victim-blamer who thinks the poor are poor because they're lazy and immoral, and that fewer women would be raped if they'd stop dressing ****ty?

Many people of all stripes have come from disadvantaged backgrounds and because of their talent, drive, and focus have become good successes in society.

[deemar325]

The best way to cure any inbuilt racism is for those who think they're discriminated against to succeed in life. It's pretty hard to think somebody is inferior when they've made a success in their life.

I consider myself fairly successful and I still want cheap land.

So sue me.

[Colossal Spoons]

I think all African-Americans need to get over it and get on with life. Accept that it's part of your past, just like slavery is part of everybody's past and move on.

That's a whole diff point. To expect us all to think of slavery in any way other than what it was is ridiculous.

[Mr Sparkle]

Actually it's pretty much correct. Europeans didn't have the immunity to go into the heart of Africa to collect slaves themselves and relied on Africans to collect the slaves for them.

read my response again jonts your post kinda missed my point.

[Outsiderzedge]

It's PRESENT limits.
and while inneficent like you said, it has proven also conducive to more things and different views that lead to other discoveries.
so again. we disagree on it's importance.
phylosopy and art however, remain colored by the human experience, the human experience includes sexuality.

I agree that they have been and still are important components of human thinking and progress. Unfortunately, with the eventual advent of superintelligence, art and imagination will soon be relegated to a quaint, antiquated and obsolete method of thought and intellectual progress.

[War Lord]

And look at you. You're doing fine. Because you're white. The system is stacked in your favor. Please read up on sociology before you come around tell me there's no such thing as institutional racism.

The system is not stacked in favour of poor whites. If anything, it's as stacked against them as any other ethnic minority.

Because whites don't need it as much. Being favored by the system and all. But I do support class-based affirmative action, because all poor people deserve a fair chance at education, and not all of them can just up and defeat poverty like you and your Jesus-like self did.

If you're poor, you need as much help as any other poor person. Ethnicity doesn't matter here.

I know you don't care about actual facts and proof, but I'll list it anyway: The Population Study Center of the University of Michigan has determined that whites have significantly greater upward mobility than blacks do. The Journal of Social Issues reported similar findings. The Center for Economic and Policy Research, in the article, "Horatio Alger is dead," found the same thing, saying that one of the key reasons for the last 30 years' decrease in upward mobility is race.

[Sloth7d]

i can see some similarities. but overall no, gays are nothing like blacks. close thread.
---

[chaseter]

Dude your Canadian!

Why the intense interest?

Anyway, if Native Americans can get casino's why not blacks getting their 40 acres? Plus we'd still be paying for it only at a cheaper rate.

I see your point WL, but honestly for me the 40 acres and a mule was the one thing promised to us yet was denied to us.

It's selfish yes, but hey 300 years of free labor should be worth something even if it's to the current generation.
The bad thing about that is that they were suppose to pay reparations to the slaves...but how does the government decide which current family member of those slaved people get the reparation? It would be wrong for every single descendent to get the 40 acre and a mule...and with interest that number is just astounding anyways. Back to the point...what do you think would happen if only one person from one side of one slave got the reparations...riots would ensue and havok would break loose. Plus I don't think it is right for someone to get all the rewards for not doing anything. I think they should build a memorial or something with the money...I can't think of one national monument that symbolizes the stuggle those people went through.

[Mr Sparkle]

I agree that they have been and still are important components of human thinking and progress. Unfortunately, with the eventual advent of superintelligence, art and imagination will soon be relegated to a quaint, antiquated and obsolete method of thought and intellectual progress.

yeah, and when I was little I was promised a car with gun turrets and perpetual use of a football helmet which I would use in battles for water, food and women in a toxic post-apocalyptic wasteland.
it never happened.
something tells me the humand mind would reject "superintelligence"
but then, what do I know? not much really.

[Outsiderzedge]

It's PRESENT limits.
and while inneficent like you said, it has proven also conducive to more things and different views that lead to other discoveries.
so again. we disagree on it's importance.
phylosopy and art however, remain colored by the human experience, the human experience includes sexuality.

Sexuality has no relevance in nonaesthetic philosophical endeavors.

As for art and aesthetic philosophy, I could care less what influences them.

[Outsiderzedge]

yeah, and when I was little I was promised a car with gun turrets and perpetual use of a football helmet which I would use in battles for water, food and women in a toxic post-apocalyptic wasteland.
it never happened.
something tells me the humand mind would reject "superintelligence"
but then, what do I know? not much really.

Superintelligence does not have to be human.

[War Lord]

Dude your Canadian!

Why the intense interest?

Anyway, if Native Americans can get casino's why not blacks getting their 40 acres? Plus we'd still be paying for it only at a cheaper rate.

I see your point WL, but honestly for me the 40 acres and a mule was the one thing promised to us yet was denied to us.

It's selfish yes, but hey 300 years of free labor should be worth something even if it's to the current generation.

What are you going to do with a mule?

My interest is in the line of thinking that's involved here. From reading this thread, it's obvious that many blacks blame their lack of success on whites because many blacks think they're being held back by whites in various ways and fashions.

I've learned from experience, that my level of success really isn't due to somebody else, but myself and if I don't have a relative amount of success in life, it's my fault and nobody else's.

If you think about, if whites were to disappear from society, who would blacks blame for their troubles then? It seems to me that the answer to eliminating racism is for blacks to get their act together and succeed, even at all costs to do so.

It's pretty hard to argue with success and claim that anybody is inferior when they are their boss. If it worked for Asians, East Indians, and a host of other people who triumphed despite obstacles, I cannot see why it wouldn't work for blacks as well.

Unless of course, and I say this with respect but it is an obvious line in thinking if blacks are unable to succeed, that they might really be inferior afterall.

[War Lord]

That's a whole diff point. To expect us all to think of slavery in any way other than what it was is ridiculous.

That's the point, blacks in slavery was no different than any other group that had been enslaved. It's really an insult to everybody to effectively say that their enslavement is of miniscule importance, but your's is forever sacrosinct.

[Mr Sparkle]

Sexuality has no relevance in nonaesthetic philosophical endeavors.

As for art and aesthetic philosophy, I could care less what influences them.

1.- wrong.
2.- you cited art and philosophy as part of human advancements.
we covered this yesterday (technically)

Superintelligence does not have to be human.

however since you spoke of it relegating art and imagination as "quaint"there would have to be a qualifier, and to deem something quaint, this qualifier would be human.
you know, the ones I said would reject superintelligence?

[War Lord]

read my response again jonts your post kinda missed my point.

There are too many posts to read to bother. You'll have to repeat it if you want me to respond to it.

[Mr Sparkle]

There are too many posts to read to bother. You'll have to repeat it if you want me to respond to it.

:huh: you quoted it.

[Outsiderzedge]

1.- wrong.
2.- you cited art and philosophy as part of human advancements.
we covered this yesterday (technically)



however since you spoke of it relegating art and imagination as "quaint"there would have to be a qualifier, and to deem something quaint, this qualifier would be human.
you know, the ones I said would reject superintelligence?

A sufficiently intelligent nonhuman entity would be capable of creating and appreciating art as much as we do.

[War Lord]

:huh: you quoted it.

I didn't notice. I'll read that post, but I'm guessing that it's out of context by now.

I just read it again. I was only saying that, from a factual point, Outsider was correct in saying that blacks, as an ethnicity, was just as responsible for slavery as everybody else.

[Mr Sparkle]

A sufficiently intelligent nonhuman entity would be capable of creating and appreciating art as much as we do.

it would appreciate technique, but not soul.
(if you mean an artificial intelligence) it would need experience in order to "appreciate"art.
it would look at a warhol peace and say "wtf it's a soup can LOLz, this guy is a n00b"

[Outsiderzedge]

1.- wrong.
2.- you cited art and philosophy as part of human advancements.
we covered this yesterday (technically)



however since you spoke of it relegating art and imagination as "quaint"there would have to be a qualifier, and to deem something quaint, this qualifier would be human.
you know, the ones I said would reject superintelligence?

I admit I wrong to include art. As for philosophy, know that I refer only to the branches of philosophy that are important; epistemology, ontology, ethics, logic, metaphysics, and law.

I will grant that some elements of law and ethics will inevitably have to deal with sexuality, but they deal with it, not out of advantage or use, but out of necessity, since humans are sexual creatures by nature and any useful development of law and ethics must address all elements that influence our behavior, which coincidentily includes sexuality. Please take note to make that distinction.

[blind_fury]

I didn't notice. I'll read that post, but I'm guessing that it's out of context by now.

I just read it again. I was only saying that, from a factual point, Outsider was correct in saying that blacks, as an ethnicity, was just as responsible for slavery as everybody else.
Ever heard of supply and demand?

Without white demand for slaves their would be no demand in Africa.

and Thomas Sowell is a sell out. No wonder you consider him an expert on blacks betraying other blacks.

[Outsiderzedge]

it would appreciate technique, but not soul.
(if you mean an artificial intelligence) it would need experience in order to "appreciate"art.
it would look at a warhol peace and say "wtf it's a soup can LOLz, this guy is a n00b"

You are assuming that the elements of art that give it meaning can not be understood by intelligence alone.

[War Lord]

Ever heard of supply and demand?

Without white demand for slaves their would be no demand in Africa.

and Thomas Sowell is a sell out. No wonder you consider him an expert on blacks betraying other blacks.

Yes that's right, any successful black is inherently a sell-out, unless he succeeded in athletics or rap.

It wasn't just whites that enslaved blacks. Blacks also enslaved blacks and so did Arabs, and it's a sincere possibility that blacks were also sold into Asia.

But of course, you just blame whites.

[Mr Sparkle]

I admit I wrong to include art. As for philosophy, know that I refer only to the branches of philosophy that are important; epistemology, ontology, ethics, logic, metaphysics, and law.

I will grant that some elements of law and ethics will inevitably have to deal with sexuality, but they deal with it, not out of advantage or use, but out of necessity, since humans are sexual creatures by nature and any useful development of law and ethics must address all elements that influence our behavior, which coincidentily includes sexuality. Please take note to make that distinction.

so sexuality would need to be adressed by thinkers whose own sexuality would color their conclusions, and no doubt has colored their conclusions for a long time.


You are assuming that the elements of art that give it meaning can not be understood by intelligence alone.

that intelligence would need a measure of experience, to fully appreciate the art, like I said before, otherwise it would appreacite technique, accuracy, I think the warhol example covers it well, there are many artists that think warhol was a sham, others don't, superintelligence seems would deal with absolutes since it would be preoccupied with efficiency.

[Mr Sparkle]

dude we sooooo hijacked this thread.

[Mr Sparkle]

It wasn't just whites that enslaved blacks. Blacks also enslaved blacks and so did Arabs, and it's a sincere possibility that blacks were also sold into Asia.

But of course, you just blame whites.

aren't the people asking for reparations U.S. citizens, wouldn't their primary concern be for the people responsible for their enslavement in the U.S.? (which would be white people)

[War Lord]

aren't the people asking for reparations U.S. citizens, wouldn't their primary concern be for the people responsible for their enslavement in the U.S.? (which would be white people)

If you're going to sue the people who were primarily responsible for slavery, then you need to include those whose ancestors got the slaves in the first place.

You can't hold people responsible for what were perfectly legal actions of the time.

[Mr Sparkle]

If you're going to sue the people who were primarily responsible for slavery, then you need to include those whose ancestors got the slaves in the first place.

You can't hold people responsible for what were perfectly legal actions of the time.

I don't think that people for reparations have an issue with legality in the past.
I don't think reparations should be handed out though.
I just don't think that's the issue.

[War Lord]

I don't think that people for reparations have an issue with legality in the past.
I don't think reparations should be handed out though.
I just don't think that's the issue.

If it's legal, there's nothing to correct.

[Mr Sparkle]

If it's legal, there's nothing to correct.

no, it was legal at the time, also it was wrong.
hence the "reparations"

[Kevin]

Yea, you kinda did.

[Sloth7d]

Black people do not need any condolances for something that happened years ago.

[blind_fury]

But blacks do deserve the inheritance they were cheated out of when the US gov't said they're forefathers couldn't own property.

[Majik1387]

But blacks do deserve the inheritance they were cheated out of when the US gov't said they're forefathers couldn't own property.
I'm sorry, call me racist if you want but this is bull to me.:o
Everyone's ancestor had something happen to them long ago. Was it right? Probably not. But I don't believe anyone of any race deserves reperations of any kind, good or bad, to make up for what happened to their ancestors.

[blind_fury]

Yes that's right, any successful black is inherently a sell-out, unless he succeeded in athletics or rap.
hahaha!!! I didn't say that. YOU did!

I consider Sowell a sell-out because he's a black person who attacks the black community.He's a Uncle Tom and a sad excuse for a human being.

It wasn't just whites that enslaved blacks. Blacks also enslaved blacks and so did Arabs, and it's a sincere possibility that blacks were also sold into Asia.

But of course, you just blame whites.
Well let blacks enslave, rape, oppress, humiliate, brutalize, terrorize, disfranchise, dehumanize, and exploit whites for the next 400 years and see how forgiving whites are a few generations afterwords.

[War Lord]

But blacks do deserve the inheritance they were cheated out of when the US gov't said they're forefathers couldn't own property.

You can't inherit anything from the government nor from other people unless they've explicitly spelled it out in their will.

The only inheritance that you deserve is the one that you get from your family.

[Sloth7d]

But blacks do deserve the inheritance they were cheated out of when the US gov't said they're forefathers couldn't own property.
I feel that maybe my ancestors and my grandmother may deserve something, but she isn't asking for it and my ancestors are dead.
I'm glad the native americans got something back, but what happened to them was more severe than what happened to us.

[War Lord]

hahaha!!! I didn't say that. YOU did!

I consider Sowell a sell-out because he's a black person who attacks the black community.He's a Uncle Tom and a sad excuse for a human being.


Well let blacks enslave, rape, oppress, humiliate, brutalize, terrorize, disfranchise, dehumanize, and exploit whites for the next 400 years and see how forgiving whites are a few generations afterwords.


He's black and successful. The fact that he disagrees with Al Sharpton and his ilk is simply a disagreement. You should try heeding Sowell, Williams, Starr, and other conservative blacks. You might learn something.

Whites were already enslaved, remember the Roman empire?

[blind_fury]

I'm sorry, call me racist if you want but this is bull to me.:o
Everyone's ancestor had something happen to them long ago. Was it right? Probably not. But I don't believe anyone of any race deserves reperations of any kind, good or bad, to make up for what happened to their ancestors.
Well if I was enslaved my entire life and never recieved a days pay the least the gov't could do is reimburse my children's children.

America got rich from free slave labor are you saying they should never give those withheld funds to the black community?

If the gov't said I could take your property and all your savings wouldn't you at least want your children's children to eventually get some back?

[blind_fury]

He's black and successful. The fact that he disagrees with Al Sharpton and his ilk is simply a disagreement. You should try heeding Sowell, Williams, Starr, and other conservative blacks. You might learn something.
Those conservative blacks are puppets for white supremacist and they don't even know it.

Whites were already enslaved, remember the Roman empire?
If the Roman Empire still thrived and existed today and the descendents of those slaves were traceable I would say they would be excellent candidates for reparations.

[blind_fury]

You can't inherit anything from the government nor from other people unless they've explicitly spelled it out in their will.

The only inheritance that you deserve is the one that you get from your family.
It was the US government that said slaves couldn't earn wages and own property the same way the German gov't said Nazis could legally sieze whatever Jews owned. Generations later Jews reclamed their grandparents property dispite the lack of wills. Go figure.

[Spider-Bite]

Ever heard of supply and demand?

Without white demand for slaves their would be no demand in Africa.

.

that is so racist man. you'll defend slave owners and slave traders because they are black, but then I owe you money because I have the same skin color as some of the slave owners.

Slavery is wrong no matter who's doing it.

[Spider-Bite]

different groups have been hurting different groups for hundreds of thousands of years. this claim that white people somehow owe black people money is nothing but another example of it.


All of our ancestors have dont horrible things. All of our ancestors. Not just white and not just black. All of our ancestors. Nobody alive today deserves reprimands for slavery because the were never slaves. That would be like me trying to collect disability income because my great aunt was disabled and she never got it.

If I didn't rob your bank account and I didn't do anything to hurt you, then you shouldn't be trying to do it to me. Just because I'm white doesn't mean I don't deserve the same rights as everybody else.

If somebody in America kidnaps somebody and forces them into slavery and they get caught, then they belong in jail, and the slave is entitled to sue the pants off of the slave owner, and they are entitled to win.

[Spider-Bite]

You are saying that gays have had the same experience as the black community has and that they are parallel and comparable...that is stupidity. Lets take it further and say that gays have had it as bad as the Jewish religion has had over the years. Or how about how the gays were driven and murdered on the Trail of Tears like the Native Americans. And how the homosexuals were forced into slavery. The black community has had it far worse than the homosexual community. To say they are the same is ridiculous.

both groups have been the victims of horrible crimes. one was enslaved, raped, murdered, killed, oppressed, tortured, and hated.

the other one had all of the above, minus the slavery part, add the family disowning you part.

[Sloth7d]

both groups have been the victims of horrible crimes. one was enslaved, raped, murdered, killed, oppressed, tortured, and hated.

the other one had all of the above, minus the slavery part, add the family disowning you part.
Well, unless you include sex slave.

[blind_fury]

that is so racist man. you'll defend slave owners and slave traders because they are black, but then I owe you money because I have the same skin color as some of the slave owners.

Slavery is wrong no matter who's doing it.
I'm suggesting a country that got rich off of slavery owes the descendents of slaves. That's all American tax payers not just whites!

[Dan33977]

I'm a slave.

[Kevin]

...for you, I cannot hold it, nor can I control it.