Discussion: Gay Rights

[DBM]

I was listening to the Rush Limbaugh show on my way back from lunch and he had a caller on the made what I think is an interesting point.

The caller stated that homosexuals have the exact same rights as heterosexuals when it comes to marriage. They just choose not to use it.

Basically, she was saying that heterosexuals have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex. Homosexuals have this exact same right but they choose to not exercise it. She claimed that there was no discriminatory behavior going on because everyone has the same rights even if the homosexuals don’t use it. She claimed that homosexuals don’t want equal rights, they want new rights.

I don’t agree with her but I have to say that she makes an interesting argument.

What do other people think?

[Evolution]

Originally posted by Outsiderzedge
First , let us define what is marriage.

Marriage has a very specific meaning that has developed over thousands of years among many cultures. The meaning is the lawful uniting of a man and a woman, and it constites in many ways a legally binding agreement. While there have been some slight variations among cultures, the basic foundation has remained unchanged and even developed independantly: marriage is the legal (and/or religious) union of man and woman.

The founders of the United States of America very likely never had the thought cross their minds as they created the Constitution that the very definition of marriage would ever come into question. It was a given. The momentum of history made it unthinkable that someone in a later generation would attempt to redefine it.

Now some in this forum have complained about "legislating morality" -- I'm sorry, but ALL LAWS are legislation of morality. Every single one. The very basis of civilation is what the civilization as a whole agrees constitutes the basic acceptable level of morality for that civilization.

That said, I was disappointed to hear of the Supreme Court's recent overturning of laws against sodomy, and suspect that it indeed will lead to more attempts to redefine marriage into something new and in my opionion, detrimental to society.

I would gladly throw my support behind a constitutional amendment to clearly define marriage as the legal and lawful union of a man and woman, just so that the apparently growing segment of our society whose morals are slipping ever downward will have it made abundantly clear what marriage is, and what it always has been.

I'm sorry to see that the modern U.S. religion, Secular Humanism, which claims to not be a religion, is trying to force it's immorality on the rest of society. If society as a whole decides to amend the definition of marriage downward, I can confidently predict over the long term, an increase in lasciviousness and an increase in societal problems. History has made it quite clear that the civilization that rejects a foundation of morality, will inevitably be destoryed, from within.

So stand up for what is right. Yes, there is such thing as "what is right", and even those who disagree, in the quiet moments of humility, few though they may be, know it themselves.

:rolleyes:

[Evolution]

Originally posted by DBM
I was listening to the Rush Limbaugh show on my way back from lunch and he had a caller on the made what I think is an interesting point.

The caller stated that homosexuals have the exact same rights as heterosexuals when it comes to marriage. They just choose not to use it.

Basically, she was saying that heterosexuals have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex. Homosexuals have this exact same right but they choose to not exercise it. She claimed that there was no discriminatory behavior going on because everyone has the same rights even if the homosexuals don’t use it. She claimed that homosexuals don’t want equal rights, they want new rights.

I don’t agree with her but I have to say that she makes an interesting argument.

What do other people think?

Syntax.

Irrelevant.

Try again.

[DBM]

Originally posted by Evolution
Syntax.

Irrelevant.

Try again.

I think you meant semantics. And they are very relavent

Semantics are very important when it comes to legal matters. The interpretation of laws deals with semantics constantly.

What this lady was saying was correct according to the way the laws are written and how we enforce the laws. Everyone has an equal opportunity to marry. Some don't like the options but they still have the opportunity. That's what laws is meant to guarantee, that everyone has the same opportunity.

The semantics of the written laws are what we used to determine their meaning. This caller on the show interprets it one way and other people interpret it another.

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally posted by Demogoblin
No one said everyone has to agree with us. We just want to get our opinions heard, just like everyone else. Thats what I'm trying to say. We have a right to our opinion, just like you do. This is the nature of democracy. Some people win, the others lose. You are saying that the religious have to accept rulings that they dont like, but the non religious dont have to live with decisions that THEY dont like. but why do you think your thoughts on marriage matter to others? why should people decide that for others? its there own buisness... and if people say its to keep the sanctity of marriage somthing special they should be shot... why? because divorce rate now is higher then it has ever been... and look what was it.. like 3 weeks ago or so brittany speares got married for a day and then enulled it... it was a joke to her... i think at least homosexuals would put it to better use.

[C. Lee]

Originally posted by spideyboy_1111
but why do you think your thoughts on marriage matter to others? why should people decide that for others? its there own buisness... and if people say its to keep the sanctity of marriage somthing special they should be shot... why? because divorce rate now is higher then it has ever been... and look what was it.. like 3 weeks ago or so brittany speares got married for a day and then enulled it... it was a joke to her... i think at least homosexuals would put it to better use.
Hmmmmm......you say you think that people's decision on this should be thier own business....but then you say that people witha certain opinion should be shot......nice way to cover all the bases.

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally posted by Mindworm
I fail to see the humor in the situation.Let us go back and read the story of Sodom and Gommorha in the book of Genesis,cities so wicked in the eyes of God he literally nuked them from the planet.That's pretty much the way God sees it.He is quoted as saying " It is an abomination ",and those that participate in such lustful sins will not see heaven.That I consider serious.Joke all you like,but one day the realization that the truth was before you will dawn on you, and you will have no excuse.What will you say ? Nothing.You cannot.Man has always held his future in his own hands.Whether an individual wishes to wrap a rope around it and strangle himself is his/her decision.Forever and a day man has constantly tried to change the will of God to suit his/her needs.God doesnt work that way.It's his way or the highway.What's worse is if you dont even consider God the facts about homosexuality still are as follows : It produces nothing beneficial whatsoever.Nothing but disease.Man + Woman = Child while in homosexuality Man + Man or Woman + Woman = nothing.Nada,zippo,zilch.Still,beliefs are a personal choice.3/4 of Americans do not believe in homosexuality,but we believe that is also a personal decison between you and the creator......but just as as any other sexual addiction goes....do not expect it to be condoned by a society based on God.Dont expect your everyday joe to let homosexuality acheive the validity of true marriage,that between a man and a woman.Like I have said above,this is my belief,and you might not agree with it - but you will never see homosexual couples acheive the same standard as heterosexual couples.Never.Now most of America has been rather tolerant of this all out assault on our morality through television and the liberal media....dont take this for validity.Also I have heard the homosexual cause compared to that of what African Americans went through.....Do not DARE compare this to slavery or what the African American suffered through during the early days of this country either.If you wish to live that lifestyle,so be it,just do not " rub it " in our faces.This tends to anger most people.There are plenty of homosexuals who realize this and keep to themselves,are happy,and live their life in peace.The two guys that lhave a hair salon down the street from the courthouse here are like that.I respect them for it,and although I do not agree with their choice it's ultimately up to them now isnt it ?Your typical American wishes no malice toward homosexuals, ( or anyone else for that matter ) but we also do not wish to see homosexuals march toward Washington like Dr.Martin Luther King proclaiming homosexuality as a valid cause..Dr.King was a man of God and a true American prophet.Freedom is a beautiful thing,but when you wish to bring about something considered by the majority of Americans as unhealthy to the general masses,expect legislation to be passed to deal with what is perceived by all aside from homosexuals as a problem.What I'm saying is,keep to yourself and you have no problem.This can be said of all people and sexual lifestyles.I dont want to know each individuals lifestyle nor do I care - unless it's pushed in my face.This is a battle that advocates for homosexuality can never win.If there are those of you that wish to engage in a lifestyle clearly labeled bizzare by most of this country thats fine and dandy.You are just as much a part of this country as Joe Schmoe live in peace and live with your decsion - yet I advise you to do as all others including heterosexuals do in their relationships - keep you personal beliefs to yourself.God Bless,may God be with you all - Da Worm

dude... lets see... what else has been proven not what the bible has said... adam and eve were most likely black do to the region they lived in... jesus doesnt look a thing like what we see... he was jewish and lived in the middle east! hed be darker complected! and they belive he never had a beared!, mary magdalin and jesus may have had a child, the great flood was not the whole world flooding but caused by either the caspian or black sea flodding.. i cant remember, and one of the most amazing was the ten plagues... ironically it happened around the same time as pompai arrupting... wich still to day is known as one of the biggest vulcano erruptions... any way....from all the ash... the sky was covered and many belive the aftermath efecct most of those around the medateranian sea. thus blocking out the sun in egypt, the nile turned red.. well that not uncommon even with todays standards.. ash sediments have been found in the nile that could have been from pompai and the nile has high iron in it.. so chances are that was bilogical.. the animal plagues would have been a part of the sun being blocked out since half of the animal species would have been thrown off. the bible dipicts woman horribly.. why? because were woman treated with respect during that time period? no.. they werent. whether gays marry or not does not mean a thing to what ur reffeing to with Sodom and Gommorha why? because lust and sex still goes on... and old men are gonna screw kids.. gays will have sex with eachother...women will do women and teen will have sex at younger ages and have bastard children... having gays marry will not bring ne more disaster to the world...

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally posted by C. Lee
Hmmmmm......you say you think that people's decision on this should be thier own business....but then you say that people witha certain opinion should be shot......nice way to cover all the bases. its the people who think this effects them.. when there not the ones getting married!

[spideyboy_1111]

for all those who are so against homosexuality i would have you know that majority of men have had sexual or "curious" thoughts about another guy in some part of there life aproximately 83%... those who block it out block it out because they are afraid... those who dont explore it becomming bi... or even homosexual. this isnt the case with everyone... but majority of stait men have had a homosexual thought.. or slight attraction to another man.. many wont admit it but its true. here is an abundance on that subject

http://www.jackinworld.com/library/articles/strfant.html

so wether u think it or not chances are a thought has popped into ur head at some time

[Hattie79]

What I wanna know is what all these religious types would say if homosexuality was proven to be biological rather than societal...

[spideyboy_1111]

and heres some interesting tidbits on a survey taken


17. Imagine that you're masturbating in front of two TV screens. One TV can show images of naked women. The other TV can show images of naked men. You can watch only one TV while you masturbate, but you must watch one of them. Which would you more likely choose?
• The one showing women: 52.5%
• The one showing men: 47.5%

18. Imagine that you're masturbating with two books. One book is devoted to pictures of female genitals; the other is devoted to pictures of male genitals. You can look at only one of the books while you masturbate, but you must look at one of them. Which would you more likely choose?
• The one showing female genitals: 44.8%
• The one showing male genitals: 55.1%

21. How would you react if your best (male) friend offered to masturbate you to orgasm in exchange for you masturbating him to orgasm?
• I'd definitely go for it: 52.2%
• I'd have to think about it: 27.5%
• I wouldn't be interested: 20.3%

22. If you were told you could masturbate and be masturbated by any male of your choice whom you personally know (including friends, acquaintences, and relatives), with no negative consequences, how would you react?
• I'd definitely go for it: 63.4%
• I'd have to think about it: 19.5%
• I wouldn't be interested: 17.1%

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally posted by Hattie79
What I wanna know is what all these religious types would say if homosexuality was proven to be biological rather than societal...

they would say its not true.. just like they dont aggre with evolution even though its proven

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by spideyboy_1111
but majority of stait men have had a homosexual thought.. or slight attraction to another man.. many wont admit it but its true. here is an abundance on that subject

so wether u think it or not chances are a thought has popped into ur head at some time
But that's irrelevant.

Most of the curiousity happens during puberty. However, it doesn't determine homosexuality.

[spideyboy_1111]

no it doesnt... but my question is that when most have had thoughts.. why do they still oppose it? personaly its because i think people are scared

[slipalong]

Every human being should be entitled to the same rights. No matter what their sexual preference.

A right to marry is one of those rights. Homosexual relationships might go against the design of mother nature (or whatever) but a lot of things we've done go against nature, look at the ozone layer, the rainforests. I'm sure nature's 'design' never intended for these things to be so messed up so screw that argument!!

It should be up to the two consenting adults as to how they want to live their life. Each government shouldn't just be condoning but encouraging people who want to live out their lives peacefully. Basically, whatever floats your boat!!

[spideyboy_1111]

exactly.. i think we sould be more worried about north korea and the ozone and the fact we have approx. 10 yrs or so left of fuel oil!

[Cosmic]

Originally posted by DBM
What this lady was saying was correct according to the way the laws are written and how we enforce the laws. Everyone has an equal opportunity to marry. Some don't like the options but they still have the opportunity. That's what laws is meant to guarantee, that everyone has the same opportunity.

The semantics of the written laws are what we used to determine their meaning. This caller on the show interprets it one way and other people interpret it another.

Yeah, but...gays don't simply want the opportunity to marry; they want to marry each other, and enjoy the same rights and benefits as straight couples. So, they're only asking for the rights they feel they should have had all along, while some of their opponents want to establish new laws in order to ban same-sex marriage altogether.

[Doomed_hero]

I wish we can get past this damn issue and start to focus on other problems that sould really be issues.

[USMC]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mindworm
What's worse is if you dont even consider God the facts about homosexuality still are as follows : It produces nothing beneficial whatsoever.Nothing but disease.

STD's in the world are spread more through heterosexual contact then homosexual contact.

Man + Woman = Child while in homosexuality Man + Man or Woman + Woman = nothing.Nada,zippo,zilch.

Man + Man, Woman + Woman = a loving relationship... something the 52% of divorced heteros could learn something about.

3/4 of Americans do not believe in homosexuality

That's an erroneous statistic.

Dr.King was a man of God and a true American prophet.

Dr. King was an adulterer. He showed us all just how sanctimonious marraige is.

keep you personal beliefs to yourself

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[spideyboy_1111]

go usmc!

[USMC]

Where? :confused: :p

[spideyboy_1111]

haha

[DBM]

Without rereading the whole damn thread, I'll comment. Starting off by saying that I think homosexuals should be allowed to marry but I just like to argue.

Originally posted by USMC
STD's in the world are spread more through heterosexual contact then homosexual contact.

Of course they do, there are more heterosexuals therefore they obviously would pass on more.

Man + Man, Woman + Woman = a loving relationship... something the 52% of divorced heteros could learn something about.

Why do people think that homosexual's would be less likely to divorce? They're people just that same as heteros. Do homosexuals never break up with significant others? I have seen no evidence that would indicate that homosexuals would be less likely to divorce.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

I never really understood this. I understand the meaning of course but not really the saying itself. Does anyone out there have black pots? All of mine are silver or copper colored.

[Jigsaw]

Mindworm, in the words of rollins, you need to SHUT THE F-CK UP AND SIT THE F-CK DOWN!!

Christians piss me off to the point where I'm almost ashamed to be one... :eek:

[guy-spidey]

I don't understand why people are so afraid of two individuals wanting to marry.

I got an idea, get over it.

What gives anyone the right to tell someone else that they are wrong about their personal decisions?

And the answer "I find it icky" does not count.

[DeadWeight]

wow, ive heard about the mindworm guy......now i've seen his religious zealotism in all it's, erm, glory......

gay marriages.......hmm. who came up with the idea of marriage in the first place? if some guy decided that it was simply to agree over land/property ownership, then carry on, marry your kitchen table if you like, but if marriage was born out of some religions then i would stick to the original idea, ie man/woman. but i think marriage was invented for shared ownership, so what do I know really.

[C. Lee]

Quote from DBM
______________________________________

Pot. Kettle. Black.

I never really understood this. I understand the meaning of course but not really the saying itself. Does anyone out there have black pots? All of mine are silver or copper colored.

_______________________________________

This is from when you cooked predominately from open fires, not gas or electric stoves, the soot from the flames turns things black.

[DeadWeight]

Originally posted by slipalong
Every human being should be entitled to the same rights. No matter what their sexual preference.

A right to marry is one of those rights. Homosexual relationships might go against the design of mother nature (or whatever) but a lot of things we've done go against nature, look at the ozone layer, the rainforests. I'm sure nature's 'design' never intended for these things to be so messed up so screw that argument!!

It should be up to the two consenting adults as to how they want to live their life. Each government shouldn't just be condoning but encouraging people who want to live out their lives peacefully. Basically, whatever floats your boat!!

erm, some people's sexual preference is 'children'. which makes me wonder: are paedophiles actually sexually attracted towards children - in which case they have an may have an illness - or are they just very twisted evil people? i know it sounds daft but i do wonder. sorry, carry on with the original topic please :o

[spideyboy_1111]

the only reason paedophiles wont be considered in this conversation is because its illegal to have sex if ur over 18 with an underage person.

[logansoldcigar]

Originally posted by DeadWeight
erm, some people's sexual preference is 'children'. which makes me wonder: are paedophiles actually sexually attracted towards children - in which case they have an may have an illness - or are they just very twisted evil people? i know it sounds daft but i do wonder. sorry, carry on with the original topic please :o

Paedophiles are no more ill than the rest of us. However, where the line is drawn is innocence. thats why we have ages of consent. ages when it is considered that the majority are mentally/physically mature enough to deal with the consequences of sex.

and just to say, when in a thread about homosexuality, its a bit iffy to bring up nonces..especially when most nonces are heterosexual.(i once found a study and linked to it..i cant be assed to find it again)

[WDTSF]

Originally posted by logansoldcigar
Paedophiles are no more ill than the rest of us.
I beg to differ.

[logansoldcigar]

Im not defending them. I dont believe its an illness. all we can do is teach them that they have to supress the urge..i dont believe a paedophile can be cured any more than I believe a homnosexual can be cured. Its what they are.

the difference between the two is innocence. consenting adults, generally, can make up their own mind about exactly what they are. children cant.

[WDTSF]

exactly. two male adults in a relationship are obviously consenting to the relationship, so you can't compare them to a 40 year old man taking advantage of a 10 year old boy.

[logansoldcigar]

I dont believe that i did compare them.

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by logansoldcigar
Im not defending them. I dont believe its an illness. all we can do is teach them that they have to supress the urge.. it's easier to give them lethal injection.

[Mindworm]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by USMC
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Mindworm -
What's worse is if you dont even consider God the facts about homosexuality still are as follows : It produces nothing beneficial whatsoever.Nothing but disease.

STD's in the world are spread more through heterosexual contact then homosexual contact. Started by homosexual practices,which involve anal intercourse,which is like sticking your penis in a vial of baterica.When are you people going to understand your anus is an EXIT, not an entrance ! Natural intercourse doesnt start diseases.They come about from bad practices,like homosexuality,beastiality,and other unclean sexual deviance.Do heterosexuals contribute ? Yes,those that frequent hookers,do not use condoms,and live a life of sexual promiscuity.They are wrong too.

Man + Woman = Child while in homosexuality Man + Man or Woman + Woman = nothing.Nada,zippo,zilch.

Man + Man, Woman + Woman = a loving relationship... something the 52% of divorced heteros could learn something about. Yes,divorce is too high because people are selfish and wish their partner to change for them,which rarely occurs....but DO NOT dare to compare that to homosexuality,which is nothing but lust.Even in a bad relationship God can bring about something worthwhile,while in a homosexual relationship all you have is lust,which is a purely selfish desire.Nothing is gained in such a relationship.That's the truth and you know it.

3/4 of Americans do not believe in homosexuality

That's an erroneous statistic. Then why is it illegal almost everywhere ? Not just America ? It's illegal because it's disgusting and promotes disease.

Dr.King was a man of God and a true American prophet.

Dr. King was an adulterer. He showed us all just how sanctimonious marraige is. Men make mistakes.Look at King David.The difference is he knew where his bread was buttered and asked forgiveness.He was forgiven.Homosexuals dont recognize ( due to their delusions ) that it's wrong to begin with.No recognition + ignorance = no forgiveness.

keep you personal beliefs to yourself

Pot. Kettle. Black. So I should just let my fellow man condemn himself when in my heart I realize he is wrong ? If I sit by and do nothing,if I fail to testify,I am just as guilty....for there are Watchmen posted to notify when an enemy appears.He has appeared and twisted God's word to bring about a justication of Homosexuality,condemned in Leviticus as well as other chapters of ther Bible.Know you this : this word ,which was given to you,shall leave you with no excuse on judgement day.Believe,repent,and be saved,ignore,and chance the danger of condemning your immortal soul.It's your choice,although it dearly saddens me.

[Dorian Gray]

MW, long time no see

http://www.evilmonkey.tv/gallery/S02E02/images/PDVD_010.jpg

Still at it I see


:(

[Mindworm]

Originally posted by Dorian Grey
MW, long time no see

http://www.evilmonkey.tv/gallery/S02E02/images/PDVD_010.jpg

Still at it I see


:( Someone needs to be,and I suppose I'm the only person who comes to bat most of the time.It hurts my heart,but I shall always stand ready.

[Sandman138]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
it's easier to give them lethal injection.

Isn't it generally a rule in most religions that the easy path is almost never the path of the rightous?

[Fib Shady]

Originally posted by Sandman138
Isn't it generally a rule in most religions that the easy path is almost never the path of the rightous?

does that mean they have to cut their lawn with a pair of scissors :confused:

[GammaBeast]

Originally posted by Sandman138
Isn't it generally a rule in most religions that the easy path is almost never the path of the rightous?


That's one of my major problems with religions, I read about one religion that believed anything that was even remotely enjoyable was a sin. So all they ever did was work and read their bibles. It's kinda hard to believe, there is a god who LOVES you, yet does not want you to be happy.

The main thing that gets me is the concept of hell. God LOVES you and is ALL FORGIVING, yet he has this list of 10 things he doesn't want you to do, and if you do any of these 10 things, he has a special place for you where you can burn and suffer for eternity.

Tell me, exactly what punishment constitutes a never ending horrible torment? Whoever came up with this didn't think the concept of eternity over too well.

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
That's one of my major problems with religions, I read about one religion that believed anything that was even remotely enjoyable was a sin. So all they ever did was work and read their bibles. It's kinda hard to believe, there is a god who LOVES you, yet does not want you to be happy.

The main thing that gets me is the concept of hell. God LOVES you and is ALL FORGIVING, yet he has this list of 10 things he doesn't want you to do, and if you do any of these 10 things, he has a special place for you where you can burn and suffer for eternity.

Tell me, exactly what punishment constitutes a never ending horrible torment? Whoever came up with this didn't think the concept of eternity over too well.

Did anyone here ever consider the possibility that God is a sadistic sick f***? I mean, sure, he created the universe a zillion years ago, but what has he done for us lately? Except making our lives miserable, that is. Besides, he's probably an old rich ultra-conservative white guy, like Donald Rumsfeld. God sucks. ;)

[Hooligan32]

Originally posted by Sandman138
Isn't it generally a rule in most religions that the easy path is almost never the path of the rightous? Your sig rocks. Howard Zinn is brilliant.:)

[Hooligan32]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
The main thing that gets me is the concept of hell. God LOVES you and is ALL FORGIVING, yet he has this list of 10 things he doesn't want you to do, and if you do any of these 10 things, he has a special place for you where you can burn and suffer for eternity.
Long live George Carlin.;)

[GammaBeast]

Originally posted by Hooligan32
Long live George Carlin.;)


YES!!!! Carlin Rules.

[Mindworm]

Well It's about time ! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,112314,00.html

[Mr.Furious]

Yeah, I read this. It’s all a load of crap I think. I can't help but roll my eyes when I hear these politicians talking about protecting the "sanctity of marriage." Jon Stewart brought up a good question last night on The Daily Show. He asked if in order to protect the "sanctity of marriage" are we obligated to make adultery illegal also?

[PLAS]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
Yeah, I read this. It’s all a load of crap I think. I can't help but roll my eyes when I hear these politicians talking about protecting the "sanctity of marriage." Jon Stewart brought up a good question last night on The Daily Show. He asked if in order to protect the "sanctity of marriage" are we obligated to make adultery illegal also? as long as them conservatives get things done the way they should be done

... their way

[guy-spidey]

President Bush said Tuesday that the Constitution must be amended to bar gay marriage becuase he said the nation must defend "the most fundamental instutition of civilization."

The most fundamental institution of civilization?
What does marriage have to do with civilization?

I wonder if one the Bush daughters were a lesbian, would he tuck them away in a different institution.

[bluejake01]

While we are at it let's ban everything. Every act, no matter how innocent will offend at least one person, so the perfect answer is to ban everyone from living their lives. All activity should now be illegal...especial any act which is a loving act between people that want to commit their lives to one another.

[TheArtofShadow]

http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1567690.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/19/opinion/polls/main589551.shtml

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/02/22/majority_in_mass_poll_oppose_gay_marriage/

Here are three sources for your viewing pleasure. All three of these polls suggest that the majority of American public is opposed to gay marriage. One of them shows support for civil unions, but not marriage. This is a democracy. The people make the desicions. If a majority wants civil unions, then thats what it'll be.

As President, you still have the right to give your own personal opinion. It just so happens that the presidents personal opinion is the voice of majority. I see this as nothing more than another way to Bash Bush into oblivion.

*Note: I am not opposed nor for gay marriages. I am not gay, so this subject doesn't affect me one way or the other. I am simply pointing out that you're bashing the president for doing something the majority of the American public similarly feels on this issue. To bash the president on this issue is to bash the American people.

[bluejake01]

Marriage as it stands today, is a religious term. All governement recognized marriages should be termed Civil Unions. Then it can be up to each individual church to decide if they will perform a marriage between same sex couples. The government should have nothing to do with that...lets re-seperate church and state people.

[Man-Thing]

Go BUSH!:up:

[TheArtofShadow]

Originally posted by bluejake01
Marriage as it stands today, is a religious term. All governement recognized marriages should be termed Civil Unions. Then it can be up to each individual church to decide if they will perform a marriage between same sex couples. The government should have nothing to do with that...lets re-seperate church and state people.

I disagree. I think that the Federal government should leave it up to state governments to make that desicion. It would solve most of the controversy in this issue.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by TheArtofShadow
http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1567690.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/19/opinion/polls/main589551.shtml

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/02/22/majority_in_mass_poll_oppose_gay_marriage/

Here are three sources for your viewing pleasure. All three of these polls suggest that the majority of American public is opposed to gay marriage. One of them shows support for civil unions, but not marriage. This is a democracy. The people make the desicions. If a majority wants civil unions, then thats what it'll be.

As President, you still have the right to give your own personal opinion. It just so happens that the presidents personal opinion is the voice of majority. I see this as nothing more than another way to Bash Bush into oblivion.

*Note: I am not opposed nor for gay marriages. I am not gay, so this subject doesn't affect me one way or the other. I am simply pointing out that you're bashing the president for doing something the majority of the American public similarly feels on this issue. To bash the president on this issue is to bash the American people.

As usual we are being asked to live under the tyranny of the majority. This majority is not always right. You can look at segregation and Jim Crow laws as example of this.

I’ve seen those polls you’re talking about, and I’ve also seen polls that show the even while opposed to gay marriage people are not opposed to people being homosexual. I don’t get this. We’re alright with people being gay, but they can’t have the same legal rights as heterosexual people? Let them have their marriages or civil unions or whatever you want to call them. Homosexuals are people too.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by TheArtofShadow
I disagree. I think that the Federal government should leave it up to state governments to make that desicion. It would solve most of the controversy in this issue.

Normally I would agree that this should be left up to the states, and that probably is still the best answer to this, but leaving it up to the states as problems. If same-sex couples are legally allowed to marry in lets say California for example, they’re marriage could not be considered valid in Nevada or Oregon. I see that as a problem.

[TheArtofShadow]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
As usual we are being asked to live under the tyranny of the majority. This majority is not always right. You can look at segregation and Jim Crow laws as example of this.

WTF?? How exactly would you like it to work??? This issue is a matter of personal opinions. You can't say the the majority is right or wrong based on your own views, because everyone has one voice! Your voice is only one. It just so happens that more people think that gay marriages are wrong. Thats how democracy works! :rolleyes:

[Evolution]

Originally posted by TheArtofShadow
I disagree. I think that the Federal government should leave it up to state governments to make that desicion. It would solve most of the controversy in this issue.

I think that government should have nothing to do with "defining" things like marriage.

Take my money, pay for a military, pave my roads, but don't tell me what or who I can or can't do.

[Evolution]

Originally posted by TheArtofShadow
WTF?? How exactly would you like it to work??? This issue is a matter of personal opinions. You can't say the the majority is right or wrong based on your own views, because everyone has one voice! Your voice is only one. It just so happens that more people think that gay marriages are wrong. Thats how democracy works! :rolleyes:

Yeah, and people used to think that black people constituted 3/5 of a man and no more.

The majority thought there was nothing wrong with keeping slaves.

:)

[TheArtofShadow]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
Normally I would agree that this should be left up to the states, and that probably is still the best answer to this, but leaving it up to the states as problems. If same-sex couples are legally allowed to marry in lets say California for example, they’re marriage could not be considered valid in Nevada or Oregon. I see that as a problem.

Why would it be a problem? You'd have to live in one of the states that legalizes it. End of story. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by TheArtofShadow
WTF?? How exactly would you like it to work??? This issue is a matter of personal opinions. You can't say the the majority is right or wrong based on your own views, because everyone has one voice! Your voice is only one. It just so happens that more people think that gay marriages are wrong. Thats how democracy works! :rolleyes:

And it just so happened that more people thought Blacks and African-Americans were inferior. Thats how democracy works! :rolleyes:

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by TheArtofShadow
Why would it be a problem? You'd have to live in one of the states that legalizes it. End of story. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

so like cattle we force them to stay in one spot. :up:

[Man-Thing]

homosexuality is a choice.

being black isn't.

not the same thing.

[TheArtofShadow]

Originally posted by Evolution
Yeah, and people used to think that black people constituted 3/5 of a man and no more.

The majority thought there was nothing wrong with keeping slaves.

:)

What's your point? That was slavery. Slavery caused suffering. I don't see gay people suffering. As a matter of fact, my sister is gay, and she had a civil union and she thinks gay marriage is stupid. There's a reason they call it an "alternative" lifestyle. Her words, not mine.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
homosexuality is a choice.

being black isn't.

not the same thing.

the idea that homosexuality is a choice is just an idea. ask yourself, if it truly was a choice why would people choose to be gay in a society that fears and hates them?

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
I wonder if one the Bush daughters were a lesbian, would he tuck them away in a different institution.

Dick Cheney's daughter is a lesbian. :D Bush is dumb/evil, which is far worse than being smart/evil, because smart/evil is solely motivated by his own ambition, and he usually knows when to quit, but dumb/evil is motivated by blind faith, and he'll keep going ahead even if it ends up destroying himself and the nation he is supposed to represent. Bye bye, America.

[TheArtofShadow]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
so like cattle we force them to stay in one spot. :up:

We're not forcing them to do anything! They have the right to go to any state they want. There's just certain benefits involved. That would be like me saying "I wanna smoke weed, so I'm forced to live in Amsterdam and I live like a cow because the US is forcing me to stay over here because it's illegal over there". Your statement just makes no sense to me.

[hippie_hunter]

Ban Gay Marriage. If I was 18 I would vote for that amdendment. I am not agaist Homosexuality nor am I religious (I am an athiest) I just beleive that marriage should stick to a man and woman not a man and man or a woman and woman

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
the idea that homosexuality is a choice is just an idea. ask yourself, if it truly was a choice why would people choose to be gay in a society that fears and hates them? everyone chooses to have sex. (except those who are raped ofcourse, I'm not talking about them). A homosexual chooses to have homosexual sex.

Homosexuality is a choice.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by TheArtofShadow
We're not forcing them to do anything! They have the right to go to any state they want. There's just certain benefits involved. That would be like me saying "I wanna smoke weed, so I'm forced to live in Amsterdam and I live like a cow because the US is forcing me to stay over here because it's illegal over there". Your statement just makes no sense to me.

my statement made perfect sense. you just choose not to give it any real thought.

[SpideyInATree]

Well, what do you expect from a guy with the last name of Bush?

:p

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by hippie_hunter
Ban Gay Marriage. If I was 18 I would vote for that amdendment. I am not agaist Homosexuality nor am I religious (I am an athiest) I just beleive that marriage should stick to a man and woman not a man and man or a woman and woman

If you believe that gay people are not entitled to the same fundamental human rights as everybody else simply because of their alternate lifestyle, then you are against homosexuality, period.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
everyone chooses to have sex. (except those who are raped ofcourse, I'm not talking about them). A homosexual chooses to have homosexual sex.

Homosexuality is a choice.

i'm not talking to you anymore.

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
i'm not talking to you anymore. :(

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
If you believe that gay people are not entitled to the same fundamental human rights as everybody else simply because of their alternate lifestyle, then you are against homosexuality, period.

exactly.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
If you believe that gay people are not entitled to the same fundamental human rights as everybody else simply because of their alternate lifestyle, then you are against homosexuality, period.

I beleive that homosexuals deserve every human rights they deserve. The only things I do not think they should be entitled to are:

1. Joining the military (The US is a conservative country especially with the military its for their own good)

2. Donating blood (AIDS is still sterotyped as a homosexual disease my mother who is all for gay rights even marriage beleives in this one)

3. Marriage (marriage is a tradition, not a government sanction)

[hippie_hunter]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
exactly.

Mr.Furious so we meet again:batman:

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by hippie_hunter
2. Donating blood (AIDS is still sterotyped as a homosexual disease my mother who is all for gay rights even marriage beleives in this one)

:confused: you use the word stereotype. stereotypes are not true. you are aware of that, right?

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
everyone chooses to have sex. (except those who are raped ofcourse, I'm not talking about them). A homosexual chooses to have homosexual sex.

Homosexuality is a choice.

Being homosexual doesn't mean that you choose to have sex with people of the same gender, it means that you are sexually attracted to people of the same gender. We can choose not to have sex, but we cannot choose who we are attracted to. A member of the KKK could be attracted to a black woman, it would not be a choice, it would be an involuntary biological imperative. Gay people do not choose to be gay, they are simply born that way. Saying that they should remain virgins or remain celibate is ridiculous.

[GunBlade]

Sexual Orientation and Race are two different things. :)

[hippie_hunter]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
:confused: you use the word stereotype. stereotypes are not true. you are aware of that, right?

Most of the time they are not true

[hippie_hunter]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
Being homosexual doesn't mean that you choose to have sex with people of the same gender, it means that you are sexually attracted to people of the same gender. We can choose not to have sex, but we cannot choose who we are attracted to. A member of the KKK could be attracted to a black woman, it would not be a choice, it would be an involuntary biological imperative. Gay people do not choose to be gay, they are simply born that way. Saying that they should remain virgins or remain celibate is ridiculous.

Homosexuality is a choice, one is not born gay

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by GunBlade
Sexual Orientation and Race are two different things. :)

Not in the sense that gay people do not choose to be gay, just as black people do not choose to be black.

[hippie_hunter]

Nick McDonald who is sitting next to me says gays should be shot

Some of the things Nick says are stupid and pointless he is often an *********

[SpideyInATree]

It's reasons like this why I don't vote, but I should vote. I'd like my president to be open minded and willing to do what's best for the country and human rights. Isn't that what he's supposed to do?

Well, if you're backing an amendment to not give people the right to get married because it's of the same sex...that kind of sounds ridiculous if you just came to this earth today. I'm not gay and never will be, but if I were and couldn't get married to the person I love because some greasy politicians were telling me I couldn't...well, pissed off would be an understatement. The problem with the world today? Nobody is willing to step into another persons shoes for even one minute to understand what it's like. Everybody goes through crap in life but if you can't get married to the love of you're life because it's the same sex...it's obsurd. This is a free country...we should be FREE. But once again the government throws it in the publics face that, apparently, we don't really matter. I guess it's, "You can do it your own way, but you have to do it how I say!" That's not free.

[TheArtofShadow]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
my statement made perfect sense. you just choose not to give it any real thought.

I've given it plenty of thought. So, in your logic, you're basically saying that individual states should all have the same benefits. You think it's wrong that a gay couple would be recognized in marriage by California and wouldn't in let's say, um....Deleware. But you probably think it's ok that Deleware has no sales tax, but California does.

Besides, how many states do you live in at one time? How many times have you been "forced" to move to a state that you really didn't like because of job opportunity or family? If you let yourself be controlled by your outside family or your company, you really need to stop b*tching about the government "forcing" you to do anything.

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by hippie_hunter
Homosexuality is a choice, one is not born gay

How would you know? If a man has NEVER been attracted to women, but has ALWAYS been attracted to other men, regardless of how he was raised, then he was simply born that way. It might not be a matter of genetics, but it remains true nonetheless.

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
Not in the sense that gay people do not choose to be gay, just as black people do not choose to be black.
The society makes people gay.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by hippie_hunter
Most of the time they are not true

right. but you also see the fault in believing that only gays have HIV, right?

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
Being homosexual doesn't mean that you choose to have sex with people of the same gender, it means that you are sexually attracted to people of the same gender. We can choose not to have sex, but we cannot choose who we are attracted to. A member of the KKK could be attracted to a black woman, it would not be a choice, it would be an involuntary biological imperative. Gay people do not choose to be gay, they are simply born that way. Saying that they should remain virgins or remain celibate is ridiculous. i'm sorry, but I don't agree. A murderer isn't a murderer until he murders. A painter isn't a painter until he paints. Someone may have scuicidal tendancies, but that doesn't mean they have killed themselves.
People may have homosexual tendencies, but that doesn't make them homosexual. All of this is my opinion ofcourse, you have every right to disagree.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
right. but you also see the fault in believing that only gays have HIV, right?

Yes I do see the fault


Holy Crap I am actually agreeing with Mr.Furious:eek:

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
i'm sorry, but I don't agree. A murderer isn't a murderer until he murders. A painter isn't a painter until he paints. Someone may have scuicidal tendancies, but that doesn't mean they have killed themselves.
People may have homosexual tendencies, but that doesn't make them homosexual. All of this is my opinion ofcourse, you have every right to disagree.

and a baby isn't a baby until it's born. lets keep abortions legal!

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
How would you know? If a man has NEVER been attracted to women, but has ALWAYS been attracted to other men, regardless of how he was raised, then he was simply born that way. It might not be a matter of genetics, but it remains true nonetheless.
Hmm..

For example, if all humans were born gay : men with men, women with women, wouldn't YOU be gay? Please answer that for me.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
and a baby isn't a baby until it's born. lets keep abortions legal!

Stop making statements that I agree with:mad:

[hippie_hunter]

Originally posted by GunBlade
Hmm..

For example, if all humans were born gay : men with men, women with women, wouldn't YOU be gay? Please answer that for me.

If that happened we would not be born

[TheArtofShadow]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
and a baby isn't a baby until it's born. lets keep abortions legal!

This is another issue I'm neutral on, but good point.

I am a republican, but I am also pro choice. to an extent

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
and a baby isn't a baby until it's born. lets keep abortions legal! how do you figure? It uses oxygen, it grows, it breaths It eats how is it not a baby?

All the instances I gave were of people making choices, not interfering with Gods natural order.

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by GunBlade
Hmm..

For example, if all humans were born gay : men with men, women with women, wouldn't YOU be gay? Please answer that for me.

I probably wouldn't exist in a world like that, because I'm straight. I mean, a gay version of myself probably would be there, but it wouldn't really be me.

[DBM]

Originally posted by SpideyInATree
It's reasons like this why I don't vote, but I should vote. I'd like my president to be open minded and willing to do what's best for the country and human rights. Isn't that what he's supposed to do?

You are making what I see as a common mistake here. You assume that because the President doesn't hold the same views as you or others that he is not open-minded. This is an argument that I've seen many, many people use.

He's not close-minded. He just has different opinions. All too often when people say that a person is "not open-minded" what they really mean is "he doesn't agree with me."

The definition of open minded is:

Open-minded
Function: adjective
: receptive to arguments or ideas

The President may be receptive to ideas and arguments but that doesn't mean he will come to same conclusion as you or I. I think Bush is very open-minded but that doesn't mean he'll do what we want.

While I don't support a consitutional amendment to limit marriage, I must applaud the President for taking a stand. It would have been all too easy for him to ignore the issue or give vague statements. He's got balls to make this stand and I respect him for that.

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
All the instances I gave were of people making choices, not interfering with Gods natural order.

ENOUGH with GOD already! Don't bring your personal religious beliefs into a rational sociological discussion! Unless you're not able to have an opinion of your own without checking with your Bible first...

[Honey Vibe]

I don't like the phrase "banning gay marriage". That really does sound like an infringement on liberty. Rather, the act should be described exactly as it is: your liberty is absolute when you're free to form a romantic union with whomever you love. But, it's another matter entirely to seek a valid license from the state.

Being "consenting adults" does not cut it for incest, polygyny, or homosexualism. Your liberty is not being infringed upon, simply because the state will not issue you a marriage license.

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
Being "consenting adults" does not cut it for incest, polygamy, or homosexuality.

I didn't know there was such a thing as CONSENTUAL incest?! :eek:

[SpideyInATree]

Well, maybe he is open minded, but is he doing what's best for human rights and the country?

And I know what the word open minded means, I don't need you to give me a definition, plus I have my own dicitionary. But anyhoo....

I don't like politicians...any of them. Why? Because I have some serious trust issues going on. Does an old man from Texas know what's really good for me as an American? Does an old man from Wyoming know what's good for me? I don't know. And until I know for sure I'm not trusting any of those guys. :)

All I'm really saying is that gay and lesbians are people just like anybody else. Whether it's a choice or whether it's something genetic they should have the right to marry each other, just like people who are straight. So, what is being said is this really, "You can get married but it has to be the opposite sex, and you should act like you enjoy the opposite sex." Does nobody get the chance to be free anymore? Guess not.

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by hippie_hunter
If that happened we would not be born
Duh. :rolleyes:

Let's say reproduction is possible.

[El Diablo]

but polygymy is immoral because of the way it affects the partners, incest is gentically protected against in several ways yet homosexuality in fact occurs in other animals ,particularly birds it has no effect on the population and is between consenting adults would you also deny rights to hetero-sexual couples that practice anal or oral sex?

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
ENOUGH with GOD already! Don't bring your personal religious beliefs into a rational sociological discussion! Unless you're not able to have an opinion of your own without checking with your Bible first... So every opinion you have came from your mind and your mind alone? None of your opinions were influenced by any teacher? What about friends? What about your parents.
You see your opinion and my opinion what ever they may be are influenced by something we have read, or something we were taught.
Could it be that you are under so much conviction from God, that the mere metion of his name brings anger to you? Could it be that you realize your sins have seperated you from him? I think the only people who know this are you and God. If this is true, I hope you get it worked out before it's too late.

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
I probably wouldn't exist in a world like that, because I'm straight. I mean, a gay version of myself probably would be there, but it wouldn't really be me.
Answer the damn question, would you be gay or not?

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by GunBlade
The society makes people gay.

if you have the time maybe you could explain this idea of yours.

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
Could it be that you are under so much conviction from God, that the mere metion of his name brings anger to you? Could it be that you realize your sins have seperated you from him? I think the only people who know this are you and God. If this is true, I hope you get it worked out before it's too late.

I don't hate God, I hate people who use God to justify their discrimination. If God loves everyone and made everyone the way they are, then he loves gay people and he made them gay to start off with.

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by GunBlade
Answer the damn question, would you be gay or not?

I'd be a lesbian. :D

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
how do you figure? It uses oxygen, it grows, it breaths It eats how is it not a baby?

All the instances I gave were of people making choices, not interfering with Gods natural order.

maybe when you get to the 9th grade they'll tell you that while in the womb of it's mother a baby is not a baby it's a fetus.

[reggiebar]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
Your liberty is not being infringed upon, simply because the state will not issue you a marriage license.

Sure it is....what about the lost benefits that a spouse can not provide to their potential spouse in a gay marriage...if a husband or wife in a heterosexual marriage can be on their spouses health benefits, etc... and we deny marriage to gay couples, their liberty to enjoy the same benefits of a heterosexual marriage is certainly an issue.

There is much more to the issue of gay marriage than simply having the State recognize the union as there are numerous benefits (work related - i.e. health insurance and tax breaks for married couples) that are being denied to gay couples who want to get married.

If there were NO benefits to marriage except for the State merely recognizing the union, there would be no liberties being infringed upon. However, since the union of marriage, by law, gives certain liberties, benefits, etc... to those in a marriage, there is an issue at hand.

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
I don't hate God, I hate people who use God to justify their discrimination. If God loves everyone and made everyone the way they are, then he loves gay people and he made them gay to start off with. I didn't say you hated him. You right God does love everyone, but he didn't make them gay.
I just wanted to point out that I have the right to bring God into any conversation I want. I am very respectable to peoples beliefs. I have never once on this board used a word like "queer" "***" or even "homo" to degrade homosexuals. I don't use those words in real life either.

But, you have every right to disagree, and I will respect your decision to disagree.

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
I'd be a lesbian. :D
Then you're gay, yes?

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
maybe when you get to the 9th grade they'll tell you that while in the womb of it's mother a baby is not a baby it's a fetus. Oh I forgot, all teachers, all scientist are always right.:rolleyes:

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
I have never once on this board used a word like "queer" "***" or even "homo" to degrade homosexuals. I don't use those words in real life either.

You don't have to use those words to discriminate, all you have to do is deny them basic civil rights.

[SpideyInATree]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
Oh I forgot, all teachers, all scientist are always right.:rolleyes:

No. But about the baby being a fetus they are right. :p

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by reggiebar
Sure it is....what about the lost benefits that a spouse can not provide to their potential spouse in a gay marriage...if a husband or wife in a heterosexual marriage can be on their spouses health benefits, etc... and we deny marriage to gay couples, their liberty to enjoy the same benefits of a heterosexual marriage is certainly an issue.

There is much more to the issue of gay marriage than simply having the State recognize the union as there are numerous benefits (work related - i.e. health insurance and tax breaks for married couples) that are being denied to gay couples who want to get married.

If there were NO benefits to marriage except for the State merely recognizing the union, there would be no liberties being infringed upon. However, since the union of marriage, by law, gives certain liberties, benefits, etc... to those in a marriage, there is an issue at hand.

lets add social security benifets being passed on to the surviving partner, hospital visitations, medical decissions for partners, joint child custoday ( if a partner with a child [don't ask me how he or she got it] dies they can leave it to the surviving partner....etc...

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
I'd be a lesbian. :D
Oh and thanks for proving my point. :)

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by GunBlade
Then you're gay, yes?

No, I'm a straight guy who is solely attracted to beautiful women. But in a world where only gay people would exist, I'd probably be a lesbian, and therefore a woman (hopefully a very attractive one), since I'm only turned on by pretty girls.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
Oh I forgot, all teachers, all scientist are always right.:rolleyes:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[SpideyInATree]

If Gay Marriage gets banned, and I were gay, I'd start a coalition of gay people and have them all march to Washington making out with each other. :)

Not really, but the media would love it.

[The Lizard]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
maybe when you get to the 9th grade they'll tell you that while in the womb of it's mother a baby is not a baby it's a fetus.

Situational semantics.

When's the last time you've heard a pregnant woman say "Oh, the fetus is kicking!"?

(This has NOTHING to do with Bush's opposition of gay marriage, BTW! :p )

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
You don't have to use those words to discriminate, all you have to do is deny them basic civil rights. But there has to be some line we draw for "civil rights". (Before you read this next sentance please realize that I am in no way comparing homosexuality and pedophilia.) What if we pass this, and a pedophile says he has the right to have sex with a child as long as he is consenting? Sounds crazy doesn't it. Sadly it is not. The ACLU is current representing the NAMBLA organization, because they say it is their right to have sex with a child, if the child consensts. This is one of the main reasons we need to draw the line, banning gay marriage. Recognize marriage between a man and woman, but make civil unions legal.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by The Lizard
Situational semantics.

When's the last time you've heard a pregnant woman say "Oh, the [B]fetus[/B\] is kicking!"?

just last week

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you talked to me. I love you.:)

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by The Lizard
Situational semantics.

When's the last time you've heard a pregnant woman say "Oh, the fetus is kicking!"?

(This has NOTHING to do with Bush's opposition of gay marriage, BTW! :p ) good point.:up: :D

[The Lizard]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
just last week

Liar

[guy-spidey]

What are you anti-homosexual marriage people so afraid of?
Seriously, I don't get it.

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
No, I'm a straight guy who is solely attracted to beautiful women. But in a world where only gay people would exist, I'd probably be a lesbian, and THEREFORE A WOMAN (hopefully a very attractive one), since I'm only turned on by pretty girls.

Exactly, why? Because it's a choice.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
But there has to be some line we draw for "civil rights". (Before you read this next sentance please realize that I am in no way comparing homosexuality and pedophilia.) What if we pass this, and a pedophile says he has the right to have sex with a child as long as he is consenting? Sounds crazy doesn't it. Sadly it is not. The ACLU is current representing the NAMBLA organization, because they say it is their right to have sex with a child, if the child consensts. This is one of the main reasons we need to draw the line, banning gay marriage. Recognize marriage between a man and woman, but make civil unions legal.

you keep on saying we should make civil unions legal. i don't understand why you're arguing with some of us then.

[SpideyInATree]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
What are you anti-homosexual marriage people so afraid of?
Seriously, I don't get it.

Because they are all secretly gay and don't want to be exposed for what they really are!!!!! :eek:

Or not...but I was just taking a wild guess.

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
What are you anti-homosexual marriage people so afraid of?
Seriously, I don't get it. Don't get mad at me, you asked.

Romans 1

God's Wrath Against Mankind

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
you keep on saying we should make civil unions legal. i don't understand why you're arguing with some of us then. that's the first time I posted that I believe civil unions should be legal. I just don't want it recognized as marriage.

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
But there has to be some line we draw for "civil rights". (Before you read this next sentance please realize that I am in no way comparing homosexuality and pedophilia.) What if we pass this, and a pedophile says he has the right to have sex with a child as long as he is consenting? Sounds crazy doesn't it. Sadly it is not. The ACLU is current representing the NAMBLA organization, because they say it is their right to have sex with a child, if the child consensts. This is one of the main reasons we need to draw the line, banning gay marriage. Recognize marriage between a man and woman, but make civil unions legal.

That's one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. A child cannot consent under any circumstances until he/she has reached the age of consent (which is 16 in Canada).

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
if you have the time maybe you could explain this idea of yours.
I never liked the color red when I was 1. I like it now because it's red and it matches my streaks.

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
That's one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. A child cannot consent under any circumstances until he/she has reached the age of consent (which is 16 in Canada). tell that to the ACLU.

[SpideyInATree]

You can't bring God in on this, no way. Everybody has different religious beliefs in this country and bring God into the discussion will only complicate it all the more. Or is that what you're looking to do, complicate the conversation?

[Pirateking]

Originally posted by Bloody Mary
i hope bush has gay children. and im glad his dog died



Not nice

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
tell that to the ACLU. http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/Rage/NAMBLARAGEPAGE.html

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
that's the first time I posted that I believe civil unions should be legal. I just don't want it called marriage.

i thought it was you you said something about it earlier. oh well. i myself have uded the term marriage, but only because i forget that it is often tied into a religious aspect. so i don't care if the church wants to keep marriage between a man and a women. they can go to hell. i agree that civil unions should be legal for all, and that the government should not be involved in saying who can and cannot be together.

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by SpideyInATree
You can't bring God in on this, no way. Everybody has different religious beliefs in this country and bring God into the discussion will only complicate it all the more. Or is that what you're looking to do, complicate the conversation? If you are refering to me, you should re read my post. Someone asked why I was afraid of gay marriage becoming legal, and I gave my response. I in no way said that the Government should pass laws based on Christian beliefs. He asked for personal reasons, so I gave mine.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by GunBlade
I never liked the color red when I was 1. I like it now because it's red and it matches my streaks.

wow, that totally makes me see the bigger picture.

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by GunBlade
Exactly, why? Because it's a choice.

No, because it's NOT a choice. If I had a choice, I'd probably want to have sex with Christian Bale or Johnny Depp, but I DON'T, because I was born hetero. If I was born homo, then I couldn't be attracted to Nicole Kidman or Angelina Jolie (whom I absolutely wanna f***), no matter how hard I tried.

[The Lizard]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
Romans 1
23 And exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

I'd just like to point out here that although reptiles seem to get a bum rap in the Bible (the serpent, the great dragon, etc), that's all just metaphoric imagery, and God loves the little lizards as much as any other animals in creation. Thank you.

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
i thought it was you you said something about it earlier. oh well. i myself have uded the term marriage, but only because i forget that it is often tied into a religious aspect. so i don't care if the church wants to keep marriage between a man and a women. they can go to hell. i agree that civil unions should be legal for all, and that the government should not be involved in saying who can and cannot be together. the thing about civil unions is that alot of realitives live together their whole lives, because one of them is handicapped. They need this, (moreso than homosexuals IMO.)

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
Don't get mad at me, you asked.

Romans 1

God's Wrath Against Mankind

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


Footnotes

This is not anger...
What does any of that have to do with federally or state sanctioned marriages. One of the US's founding key principles was the seperation of church and state.
I understand the above are your beliefs and you are afraid of them (eternal damnation, yada yada yada).
But you are not the gay man being married. Why would you care if he is eternally damned?

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by The Lizard
I'd just like to point out here that although reptiles seem to get a bum rap in the Bible (the serpent, the great dragon, etc), that's all just metaphoric imagery, and God loves the little lizards as much as any other animal in creation. Thank you. lol:up:

[TheSumOfGod]

According to Hindu faith, it is perfectly acceptable for an old man to get married to and have sex with a 12 year-old girl. If we involve religion into this topic, then it's going straight to hell for sure.

[SpideyInATree]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
This is not anger...
What does any of that have to do with federally or state sanctioned marriages. One of the US's founding key principles was the seperation of church and state.
I understand the above are your beliefs and you are afraid of them (eternal damnation, yada yada yada).
But you are not the gay man being married. Why would you care if he is eternally damned?

That's what I'm saying. You can't bring God in on something like this.

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
This is not anger...
What does any of that have to do with federally or state sanctioned marriages. One of the US's founding key principles was the seperation of church and state.
I understand the above are your beliefs and you are afraid of them (eternal damnation, yada yada yada).
But you are not the gay man being married. Why would you care if he is eternally damned? you asked for my reasoning, I in noway said the Federal Government should base laws on Christianity.

The reason I apply this scripture to my beliefs concerning gay marriage is that I believe God will judge countrys as well as individuals. This is present throughout the old testament, with God punishing the Israelites good and bad. The rightous in Israel didn't stand up in the face of immorality, so they were guilty as well. Of course this is just my opinion, you don't have to like it.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
you asked for my reasoning, I in noway said the Federal Government should base laws on Christianity.

The reason I apply this scripture to my beliefs concerning gay marriage is that I believe God will judge countrys as well as individuals. This is present throughout the old testament, with God punishing the Israelites good and bad. The rightous in Israel didn't stand up in the face of immorality, so they were guilty as well. Of course this is just my opinion, you don't have to like it.

...and we don't like it.

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
According to Hindu faith, it is perfectly acceptable for an old man to get married to and have sex with a 12 year-old girl. If we involve religion into this topic, then it's going straight to hell for sure. If you are refering to me, you should re read my post. Someone asked why I was afraid of gay marriage becoming legal, and I gave my response. I in no way said that the Government should pass laws based on Christian beliefs. He asked for personal reasons, so I gave mine.

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
...and we don't like it. you have that right.:up:

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
No, because it's NOT a choice. If I had a choice, I'd probably want to have sex with Christian Bale or Johnny Depp, but I DON'T, because I was born hetero. If I was born homo, then I couldn't be attracted to Nicole Kidman or Angelina Jolie (whom I absolutely wanna f***), no matter how hard I tried.
So in that case, I was born to like beef or cheeseburgers?

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
you asked for my reasoning, I in noway said the Federal Government should base laws on Christianity.

The reason I apply this scripture to my beliefs concerning gay marriage is that I believe God will judge countrys as well as individuals. This is present throughout the old testament, with God punishing the Israelites good and bad. The rightous in Israel didn't stand up in the face of immorality, so they were guilty as well. Of course this is just my opinion, you don't have to like it.

That's the problem with religious people in general. They can't be reasonned with. Every single one of their "personal opinions" is based upon the mythology of some primitive and barbaric tribe that lived in the middle of the desert thousands of years ago.

[Evolution]

Originally posted by TheArtofShadow
What's your point? That was slavery. Slavery caused suffering. I don't see gay people suffering. As a matter of fact, my sister is gay, and she had a civil union and she thinks gay marriage is stupid. There's a reason they call it an "alternative" lifestyle. Her words, not mine.

Your sister doesn't speak for the gay community.

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
wow, that totally makes me see the bigger picture.
You should. ;)

[Evolution]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
homosexuality is a choice.

being black isn't.

not the same thing.

So when did you choose to **** girls instead of guys?

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by Evolution
So when did you choose to **** girls instead of guys?

rocking the hype as usual. we love you evolution.

[Morg]

Stupid, nice to see are beloved president cares about the people
doesn't use bias in his ruling. :rolleyes:

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by GunBlade
So in that case, I was born to like beef or cheeseburgers?

Are you actually comparing being attracted to Johnny Depp or Angelina Jolie to liking fast food? One is a matter of environmental/genetic predisposition, the other is a simple question of taste.

[Doomed_hero]

yep, first step to a dictator ship is denying people there civil rights.

[USMC]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hippie_hunter
I beleive that homosexuals deserve every human rights they deserve. The only things I do not think they should be entitled to are:

1. Joining the military (The US is a conservative country especially with the military its for their own good)

You shouldn't speak of something you know nothing about. Tens of thousands of gays have served this country honorably in the military, alot of them making the rank of General, other countries allow gays to serve with absolutely no problems... for their own good? You ignorant child.

2. Donating blood (AIDS is still sterotyped as a homosexual disease my mother who is all for gay rights even marriage beleives in this one)

Blood is thoroughly screened nowadays to prevent any erroneous infections. If you think for a moment that heterosexuals do not carry AIDS, then you are a fool. AIDS is HARDLY considered a homosexual disease anymore, only by the uneducated and ignorant... such as you and your mother.

3. Marriage (marriage is a tradition, not a government sanction)

If marraige is not a government sanction, then why have the government involved in saying who can and who can't get married? As far as tradition goes, there have been same-sex marraiges in many societies since the beginning of mankind. Just because they are not in front of a Christian minister, then they have no validity? Wrong.

Educate yourself.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
everyone chooses to have sex. (except those who are raped ofcourse, I'm not talking about them). A homosexual chooses to have homosexual sex.

Homosexuality is a choice.

So the only reason homosexuals are together is to have sex? That is the most ignorant comment I have ever heard. They can have sex without being married. The idea of marriage is a LOVE issue, not a SEX issue. You don't choose who you love...it just happens.

[USMC]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
I don't like the phrase "banning gay marriage". That really does sound like an infringement on liberty. Rather, the act should be described exactly as it is: your liberty is absolute when you're free to form a romantic union with whomever you love. But, it's another matter entirely to seek a valid license from the state.

Being "consenting adults" does not cut it for incest, polygyny, or homosexualism. Your liberty is not being infringed upon, simply because the state will not issue you a marriage license.

So then invalidate all marraiges liscenses to heterosexual couples, since it's not that big of a deal.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by USMC
[QUOTE]Originally posted by hippie_hunter
I beleive that homosexuals deserve every human rights they deserve. The only things I do not think they should be entitled to are:

1. Joining the military (The US is a conservative country especially with the military its for their own good)

You shouldn't speak of something you know nothing about. Tens of thousands of gays have served this country honorably in the military, alot of them making the rank of General, other countries allow gays to serve with absolutely no problems... for their own good? You ignorant child.

2. Donating blood (AIDS is still sterotyped as a homosexual disease my mother who is all for gay rights even marriage beleives in this one)

Blood is thoroughly screened nowadays to prevent any erroneous infections. If you think for a moment that heterosexuals do not carry AIDS, then you are a fool. AIDS is HARDLY considered a homosexual disease anymore, only by the uneducated and ignorant... such as you and your mother.

3. Marriage (marriage is a tradition, not a government sanction)

If marraige is not a government sanction, then why have the government involved in saying who can and who can't get married? As far as tradition goes, there have been same-sex marraiges in many societies since the beginning of mankind. Just because they are not in front of a Christian minister, then they have no validity? Wrong.

Educate yourself.

boo-yah! i was wondering when you were gonna get in here and represent.

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
Are you actually comparing being attracted to Johnny Depp or Angelina Jolie to liking fast food? One is a matter of environmental/genetic predisposition, the other is a simple question of taste.

Taste. Taste as in preferring dark haired guys than blondes...Or short than tall?

Yes, it's my logic is quite similar to yours.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by GunBlade
Taste. Taste as in preferring dark haired guys than blondes...Or short than tall?

Yes, it's my logic is quite similar to yours.

just because you chose to be gay doesn't mean that all have made it a choice. some people are born that way. wait, i don't know why there is an argument over if its a choice or not...

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by GunBlade
Taste. Taste as in preferring dark haired guys than blondes...Or short than tall?

Yes, it's my logic is quite similar to yours.

What's your point? That sexual orientation is entirely dependant upon individual taste? Then, if that's the case, you'd PREFER to have sex with Sarah Michelle Gellar, but you'd SETTLE for Freddy Prinze Jr, if you didn't have any other option.

[USMC]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
just because you chose to be gay doesn't mean that all have made it a choice. some people are born that way. wait, i don't know why there is an argument over if its a choice or not...

Because GunBlade sees what she wants to see, that way her flimsy argument can hold water.

[bluejake01]

BTW...is Romans 1 old, or new testament?

[The Lizard]

New. Right after Acts and before 1 Corinthians.

[TheSumOfGod]

GunBlade's a GIRL? Ah, jeez. I've been talking to her as if she was a guy all along.

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by Man-Thing
you asked for my reasoning, I in noway said the Federal Government should base laws on Christianity.



But this is exactly what Bush is doing based on HIS Christian Fundamentalist beliefs.

So once again I'm in the dark.

Tell me why it is wrong.

[bluejake01]

Funny little book the Bible is..I wonder why it is relevent to a debate taking place today?

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by bluejake01
Funny little book the Bible is..I wonder why it is relevent to a debate taking place today?

Because Bush becoming President was the first sign of the Apocalypse.

[Shifty]

I would not count out Edwards, and I’ll tell you why: Janet Jackson – that whole freakout over nothing, and the fact that we have the time and luxury to care about gay marriage, tells me 9/11 really never happened, which means people don’t really care about a “wartime” president, which is Kerry’s strong suit since he went to war – they want another Clinton, a smooth guy who’s easy to look at for four years, feels their pain and is thinking mostly about the economy and jobs. If 9/11 was really being remembered, Clark would still be in it. - Bill Maher

[War Lord]

There's no proof that homosexuality is nature.

[bluejake01]

A debate about law no less...which should have nothing to do with religion. Laws should be made to stop things that harm the community...how does it harm the community for same-sex, monogomous couples to have the same rights as other couples? The last time I checked, homosexuality wasn't harmful or contagious.

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by jonty30
There's no proof that homosexuality is nature.

and there is no proof to say it's not.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by jonty30
There's no proof that homosexuality is nature.

Homosexuality does exist in nature, and has existed in the human species since the dawn of man.

[Honey Vibe]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
if you have the time maybe you could explain this idea of yours. I lived in other societies, and I can say for certain that the gay identity is a complete fabrication of the West.

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by bluejake01
The last time I checked, homosexuality wasn't harmful or contagious.

The Republicans believe that being gay IS contagious. The ultra-conservative religious zealots in this country seem to think that if gay marriage were to be legalized, then EVERYONE would spontaneously become gay, and get married to members of their own immediate family, or to a goat.

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
What's your point? That sexual orientation is entirely dependant upon individual taste?
Individual taste thus choice.

Then, if that's the case, you'd PREFER to have sex with Sarah Michelle Gellar, but you'd SETTLE for Freddy Prinze Jr, if you didn't have any other option.
I would prefer to do Ryan Phillippe AND I would settle with him. :o

[USMC]

Originally posted by jonty30
There's no proof that homosexuality is nature.

http://www.rnw.nl/lifestyle/html/gayanimals000808.html

http://www.subversions.com/french/pages/science/animals.html

http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm

"There's clearly a wide range of homosexual behaviors in the animal kingdom. It's widespread, common and impossible to deny or explain away any longer.

Homosexuality is natural as green grass in summer, and it's high time we accepted that fact.

The birds do it. It's been described in 130 species of birds. The southeastern blueberry bees do it. Same sex pairs of animals kiss and caress each other with obvious affection and tenderness. Male pairs and female pairs form long-lasting pair-bonds and reject, threaten, even fight off potential opposite sex partners when they are presented with them. Same sex partners engage in almost every conceivable means of sexual expression throughout the animal kingdom. "


I can post more. Or you can continue to babble on...

[Mixairian]

Originally posted by TheArtofShadow
http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1567690.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/19/opinion/polls/main589551.shtml

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/02/22/majority_in_mass_poll_oppose_gay_marriage/

Here are three sources for your viewing pleasure. All three of these polls suggest that the majority of American public is opposed to gay marriage. One of them shows support for civil unions, but not marriage. This is a democracy. The people make the desicions. If a majority wants civil unions, then thats what it'll be.

As President, you still have the right to give your own personal opinion. It just so happens that the presidents personal opinion is the voice of majority. I see this as nothing more than another way to Bash Bush into oblivion.

*Note: I am not opposed nor for gay marriages. I am not gay, so this subject doesn't affect me one way or the other. I am simply pointing out that you're bashing the president for doing something the majority of the American public similarly feels on this issue. To bash the president on this issue is to bash the American people.

Now these polls you're citing. Are they actually polling most of the country or just a specific genre of folks who attend their sites?

Like does the Boston poll count for all of Boston or just those who read the paper... Does it also count for New York? Or Texas? Or any other state?

[Honey Vibe]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
The Republicans believe that being gay IS contagious. That is absolutely ridiculous. Republicans don't think anything of the sort!

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
just because you chose to be gay doesn't mean that all have made it a choice.
Yeah because infants know what gay is.

[bluejake01]

I am telling you...we should just ban everything and become a totalitarian society. Why the hell not right? The american government is systematically removing civil rights in the name of Security. Why not just remove all civil rights, from everyone? That way they won't have to worry about anyone being different, or fighting for their rights...It will be completely fair.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Mr.Furious
and there is no proof to say it's not.

So, if it's not nature than why treat it as if it is?

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by GunBlade
Yeah because infants know what gay is.

Infants don't know what straight is either.

[Mixairian]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
The Republicans believe that being gay IS contagious.

Next to Bush trying to Ban Gay Marriages... This is the dumbest statement I've ever read.

[Mr.Furious]

i'm out all.

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by Mixairian
Next to Bush trying to Ban Gay Marriages... This is the dumbest statement I've ever read.

I was simply being sarcastic, attempting to ridiculize their homophobic views. JEEZ! Do I have to use a :D or ;) EVERY time?!

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
I am telling you...we should just ban everything and become a totalitarian society. Why the hell not right? The american government is systematically removing civil rights in the name of Security. Why not just remove all civil rights, from everyone? That way they won't have to worry about anyone being different, or fighting for their rights...It will be completely fair.

Ummm. Marriage is not a civil right, because it's not in the bill of rights nor in the constitution. A right is something one can do regardless of what others think. Not everybody who wants to marry can do so.

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by bluejake01
Infants don't know what straight is either.
Exactly, no one is born straight or gay. You just proved my point. :o

[Mixairian]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
I was simply being sarcastic, attempting to ridiculize their homophobic views. JEEZ! Do I have to use a :D or ;) EVERY time?!

When you use sarcasm in person most folks have a tone to their voices. When you shift that forum to a message board that tone is lost. For all we knew, you could have very well be serious.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
Homosexuality does exist in nature, and has existed in the human species since the dawn of man.

It doesn't mean it's not developmental.

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by GunBlade
Exactly, no one is born straight or gay. You just proved my point. :o

"Straight"= attracted only to members of the opposite gender.

"Gay"= attracted only to members of the same gender.

[Honey Vibe]

Originally posted by USMC


The birds do it. It's been described in 130 species of birds. The southeastern blueberry bees do it. Same sex pairs of animals kiss and caress each other with obvious affection and tenderness. Male pairs and female pairs form long-lasting pair-bonds and reject, threaten, even fight off potential opposite sex partners when they are presented with them. Same sex partners engage in almost every conceivable means of sexual expression throughout the animal kingdom. "


I can post more. Or you can continue to babble on... This is a great example of pseudo-science trying to validate a cultural trend.

Same sex cats will rub up against each others sides -- are they gay? "Kissing" is not a form of sexual intimacy in any animal besides homo sapiens -- why construe it as if it is?

And I'm sure there's something hokey to be found in the other statements in this paragraph as well, with minimal investigation.

[Mixairian]

Main Entry: mar·riage
Pronunciation: 'mer-ij, 'ma-rij
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Anglo-French, from marier to marry
1 a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage> b : the mutual relation of married persons : WEDLOCK c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage
2 : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities
3 : an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry -- J. T. Shawcross>

[USMC]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
I lived in other societies, and I can say for certain that the gay identity is a complete fabrication of the West.

http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/1812.html

"Must reading for serious investigators of sex and gender. . . . This documentation of several societies where homosexual relations among men are both universal and obligatory challenges a number of medical, biological, and psychological theories of homosexuality."--Barry D. Adam, American Journal of Sociology


"Today, ritualized homosexual behavior is present in roughly 20% of the 700 to 1000 cultures of Melanesia (the region has over 2000 languages) "

Homosexuality has been a wide accepted way of life in many cultures throughout history. This is but one example.

[gildea]

well just read through all of this

MAJOR props to USMC for the facts he presented and pretty much under cutting every argument.



And really what is with homosexuality being equated with paedophillia and incest they're completely different, there is no victim for starters and no harm to genetics for seconds.

[Mixairian]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
"Straight"= attracted only to members of the opposite gender.

"Gay"= attracted only to members of the same gender.

Straight:

Main Entry: 1straight
Pronunciation: 'strAt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English streght, straight, from past participle of strecchen to stretch -- more at STRETCH
1 a : free from curves, bends, angles, or irregularities <straight hair> <straight timber> b : generated by a point moving continuously in the same direction and expressed by a linear equation <a straight line> <the straight segment of a curve>
2 a : lying along or holding to a direct or proper course or method <a straight thinker> b : CANDID, FRANK <a straight answer> c : coming directly from a trustworthy source <a straight tip on the horses> d (1) : having the elements in an order <the straight sequence of events> (2) : CONSECUTIVE <12 straight days> e : having the cylinders arranged in a single straight line <a straight 8-cylinder engine> f : PLUMB, VERTICAL <the picture isn't quite straight>
3 a : exhibiting honesty and fairness <straight dealing> b : properly ordered or arranged <set the kitchen straight> <set us straight on that issue>; also : CORRECT <get the facts straight> c : free from extraneous matter : UNMIXED <straight whiskey> d : marked by no exceptions or deviations in support of a principle or party <votes a straight Democratic ticket> e : having a fixed price for each regardless of the number sold f : not deviating from an indicated pattern <writes straight humor> <a straight-A student> g (1) : exhibiting no deviation from what is established or accepted as usual, normal, or proper : CONVENTIONAL; also : SQUARE 5f (2) : not using or under the influence of drugs or alcohol h : HETEROSEXUAL
4 : being the only form of remuneration <on straight commission>
- straight·ish /'strA-tish/ adjective
- straight·ly adverb
- straight·ness noun

Gay:

Main Entry: 1gay
Pronunciation: 'gA
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French gai
1 a : happily excited : MERRY b : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits
2 a : BRIGHT, LIVELY <gay sunny meadows> b : brilliant in color
3 : given to social pleasures; also : LICENTIOUS
4 a : HOMOSEXUAL b : of, relating to, or used by homosexuals <the gay rights movement> <a gay bar>
synonym see LIVELY
- gay adverb
- gay·ness noun

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by jonty30
Ummm. Marriage is not a civil right, because it's not in the bill of rights nor in the constitution. A right is something one can do regardless of what others think. Not everybody who wants to marry can do so.

Then why should opposite sex couples be allowed to marry? If it is not a right, and is only given to a certain population, based on gender...then that is preferential, and discriminatory in it's current form. The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is a civil right.

[USMC]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
That is absolutely ridiculous. Republicans don't think anything of the sort!

However, the heavily conservatives believe it's an infection to the heterosexual community.

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
"Straight"= attracted only to members of the opposite gender.

"Gay"= attracted only to members of the same gender.
And? :confused:

[War Lord]

Originally posted by USMC
http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/1812.html

"Must reading for serious investigators of sex and gender. . . . This documentation of several societies where homosexual relations among men are both universal and obligatory challenges a number of medical, biological, and psychological theories of homosexuality."--Barry D. Adam, American Journal of Sociology


"Today, ritualized homosexual behavior is present in roughly 20% of the 700 to 1000 cultures of Melanesia (the region has over 2000 languages) "

Homosexuality has been a wide accepted way of life in many cultures throughout history. This is but one example.

I heard from an expert (I don't remember his name) that while homosexuality was common in ancient Greek culture, it was almost nonexistent in the contemporary Jewish society.

[USMC]

Originally posted by GunBlade
Yeah because infants know what gay is.

They don't know what "straight" is, either. It's called adolescence, GB. You know, that one day when you woke up and realized you want a man's genitals instead of a woman's breasts next to you in bed. Oh, that's right... you simply chose men over women...:rolleyes:

[USMC]

Originally posted by jonty30
So, if it's not nature than why treat it as if it is?

http://www.rnw.nl/lifestyle/html/gayanimals000808.html

http://www.subversions.com/french/p...ce/animals.html

http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm

"There's clearly a wide range of homosexual behaviors in the animal kingdom. It's widespread, common and impossible to deny or explain away any longer.

Homosexuality is natural as green grass in summer, and it's high time we accepted that fact.

The birds do it. It's been described in 130 species of birds. The southeastern blueberry bees do it. Same sex pairs of animals kiss and caress each other with obvious affection and tenderness. Male pairs and female pairs form long-lasting pair-bonds and reject, threaten, even fight off potential opposite sex partners when they are presented with them. Same sex partners engage in almost every conceivable means of sexual expression throughout the animal kingdom. "


I can post more. Or you can continue to babble on...

[USMC]

Originally posted by jonty30
Ummm. Marriage is not a civil right, because it's not in the bill of rights nor in the constitution. A right is something one can do regardless of what others think. Not everybody who wants to marry can do so.

So soon, it WILL be a civil right... for a certain group of the population, that is...

[Honey Vibe]

Originally posted by USMC
However, the heavily conservatives believe it's an infection to the heterosexual community. That's the same stupid statement, and the same villain: those People Over There that don't agree with you.

[USMC]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
This is a great example of pseudo-science trying to validate a cultural trend.

Same sex cats will rub up against each others sides -- are they gay? "Kissing" is not a form of sexual intimacy in any animal besides homo sapiens -- why construe it as if it is?

And I'm sure there's something hokey to be found in the other statements in this paragraph as well, with minimal investigation.

Do try, then. These are but a few examples.

"Kissing" is hardly the only form of sexual communication.

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by USMC
They don't know what "straight" is, either. It's called adolescence, GB. You know, that one day when you woke up and realized you want a man's genitals instead of a woman's breasts next to you in bed. Oh, that's right... you simply chose men over women...:rolleyes:
Yeah, just like you, USMC. :)

[Honey Vibe]

Originally posted by USMC
They don't know what "straight" is, either. It's called adolescence, GB. You know, that one day when you woke up and realized you want a man's genitals instead of a woman's breasts next to you in bed. Oh, that's right... you simply chose men over women...:rolleyes: So a pedophile who chooses children over adults is a victim of society's misunderstanding?

[USMC]

Originally posted by jonty30
I heard from an expert (I don't remember his name) that while homosexuality was common in ancient Greek culture, it was almost nonexistent in the contemporary Jewish society.

So? Homosexuality was and is common in several societies throughout history, and not common in several.

BTW, I gauruntee you that homosexuality was as common among Jews way back when as it is today... the difference being the religious oppression that prevented people from openly being gay.

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by USMC
They don't know what "straight" is, either.
Again, that was MY POINT!!

[TheSumOfGod]

Okay, I'm GAY, allright?! I wanna make that elf-guy from LOTR my b****! Are you all happy, now?! ;)

[Mixairian]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
So a pedophile who chooses children over adults is a victim of society's misunderstanding?

That is a bit of jump there HV. He merely pointed out that GB chooses one gender over another. That sexuality is a matter of choice to an individual... When a pedophile takes a child it is still that persons choice of action.

[USMC]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
That's the same stupid statement, and the same villain: those People Over There that don't agree with you.

Actually, I was referring to the heavy conservative idea that having gay marraige will somehow harm the "institution" of heterosexual marraige... which it will not in any way.

[Mixairian]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
Okay, I'm GAY, allright?! I wanna make that elf-guy from LOTR my b****! Are you all happy, now?! ;)

Good for you. I could seriously not care less about your sexual preference.

[gildea]

"So a pedophile who chooses children over adults is a victim of society's misunderstanding?"


Thats a terrible argument there is a victim (of a terrible crime) in that scenario.

Major Difference

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
So a pedophile who chooses children over adults is a victim of society's misunderstanding?

Right there is where I lost complete and total respect for a damned thing you have to say! That is the epitome of ignorance. Pedophiles victimize people! Homosexuality between two consenting adults does not victimize people.! Over 90% of pedophiles are heterosexual males. You equating homosexuality to pedophlia puts you in a ctegory of stupid I won't even bother to debate with.

[USMC]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
So a pedophile who chooses children over adults is a victim of society's misunderstanding?

No. Why would he/she be?:confused:

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by Mixairian
Good for you. I could seriously not care less about your sexual preference.

I was kidding, dubmass.

Aragorn is way hotter. :D

[Honey Vibe]

Originally posted by USMC
Do try, then. These are but a few examples.

"Kissing" is hardly the only form of sexual communication. These pseudo-science reports will take ANY interaction between same-sex animals that isn't violent as "homosexual tendencies". I don't know what's more revolting: the way these interactions are misconstrued by human filters, or the fact that there's well-sized audience who buys into it.

[GunBlade]

Originally posted by Mixairian
That is a bit of jump there HV. He merely pointed out that GB chooses one gender over another. That sexuality is a matter of choice to an individual...
And I was clearly explaining myself to Mr.Furious and TheSumofGod.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
Then why should opposite sex couples be allowed to marry? If it is not a right, and is only given to a certain population, based on gender...then that is preferential, and discriminatory in it's current form. The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is a civil right.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/003/660zypwj.asp

This is what is in store for Western society as it approves homosexual marriages. I am not predicting good things to come for our society.

Granted, if heteros really cared about the institution they wouldn't divorce at the rate of 50 to 60 percent, abandon their families, and they would really work on the marriages they were in.

[Honey Vibe]

Originally posted by bluejake01
Right there is where I lost complete and total respect for a damned thing you have to say! That is the epitome of ignorance. Pedophiles victimize people! Homosexuality between two consenting adults does not victimize people.! Over 90% of pedophiles are heterosexual males. You equating homosexuality to pedophlia puts you in a ctegory of stupid I won't even bother to debate with. If sexuality is a choice, where do you stop supporting alternative sexuality?

[Mixairian]

Originally posted by TheSumOfGod
I was kidding, dubmass.

Aragorn is way hotter. :D

It is dumbass... And I again... I'm not sure if I could care less. ^_^

Originally posted by GunBlade
And I was clearly explaining myself to Mr.Furious and TheSumofGod.

I missed most of the arguement so I've been slowly easing myself into it.

I believe that a homosexual male or female should be able to marry someone as they please.

[TheSumOfGod]

Originally posted by GunBlade
And I was clearly explaining myself to Mr.Furious and TheSumofGod.

Admit it, baby, you want me. I know you do. Unless you're a lesbian?! ;)

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
If sexuality is a choice, where do you stop supporting alternative sexuality?

The same place you stop supporting any activity...when it causes harm to another human being...

[War Lord]

Originally posted by USMC
http://www.rnw.nl/lifestyle/html/gayanimals000808.html

http://www.subversions.com/french/p...ce/animals.html

http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm

"There's clearly a wide range of homosexual behaviors in the animal kingdom. It's widespread, common and impossible to deny or explain away any longer.

Homosexuality is natural as green grass in summer, and it's high time we accepted that fact.

The birds do it. It's been described in 130 species of birds. The southeastern blueberry bees do it. Same sex pairs of animals kiss and caress each other with obvious affection and tenderness. Male pairs and female pairs form long-lasting pair-bonds and reject, threaten, even fight off potential opposite sex partners when they are presented with them. Same sex partners engage in almost every conceivable means of sexual expression throughout the animal kingdom. "


I can post more. Or you can continue to babble on...

My point is that just because it happens in nature, it doesn't mean it's nature. For all we know, animals are also subject to the same psychological conditions that we are.

[gildea]

"If sexuality is a choice, where do you stop supporting alternative sexuality?"


where there is a victim and manipulations involved, otherwise how would you argue against rape?

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
If sexuality is a choice, where do you stop supporting alternative sexuality?

Stating that pedophilia is an alternative sexuality is akin to saying the same of rape.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by jonty30
My point is that just because it happens in nature, it doesn't mean it's nature. For all we know, animals are also subject to the same psychological conditions that we are.

OK, so heterosexuality is a choice as well, based on your arguments. If it isn't nature, then it is environment. So, heterosexuals choose to be what they are, so why do they get preferential treatment?

[Mixairian]

So where exactly do people in this thread stand? I'm not quite sure by the tone of most of the arguements.

[Honey Vibe]

Originally posted by gildea
"So a pedophile who chooses children over adults is a victim of society's misunderstanding?"


Thats a terrible argument there is a victim (of a terrible crime) in that scenario.

Major Difference You guys are making assumptions about pedophiles. Often the couple (a legal adult and a teen) are only separated by 5-10 years in age.

So the law is against their union, let alone a legal marriage.

[Evolution]

Originally posted by jonty30
So, if it's not nature than why treat it as if it is?

And if it's not a choice, why treat it as if it is?

[War Lord]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
Stating that pedophilia is an alternative sexuality is akin to saying the same of rape.

Most pedo's were molested as kids. From the homo's (just short, not derogatory) I've talked to, there does seem to be a thread of being unloved that runs through many of their lives, could be a contributing factor.

[Honey Vibe]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
Stating that pedophilia is an alternative sexuality is akin to saying the same of rape. Not true. Most teen-to-adult sex is completely consentual.

[USMC]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
These pseudo-science reports will take ANY interaction between same-sex animals that isn't violent as "homosexual tendencies". I don't know what's more revolting: the way these interactions are misconstrued by human filters, or the fact that there's well-sized audience who buys into it.

I'm a little put off here, HV. Basically, science is just plain wrong because it doesn't jive wityh your beliefs? We're talking about well-educated biological sceintist who study animals and behavior for a living. What makes their conclusions less valid to you? Why does it all of the sudden become "pseudo-science"? You simply have no argument to back up that opinion.

Animals of the same sex copulate with each other. They form bonds with each other not unlike homosexual humans. They even raise offspring together. There are MANY documented cases of this occurring in nature.



http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1143549,00.html


"As gays go, Roy and Silo are not unusual. They cohabit, are affectionate in public and have been inseparable for years. Only their species marks them out. The New York pair are chinstrap penguins.
Every day at Manhattan's Central Park Zoo the two males entwine necks, vocalise to each other and have, er, sex. When offered female companionship, they decline.

Roy and Silo have even displayed urges to procreate, and once tried to hatch a rock. Finally their keeper, Rob Gramzay, gave them a fertile egg from another brood. Tango, their chick, was born later. The pair raised it lovingly. 'They did a great job,' admits Gramzay.

But being gay is not just a New York penguin thing. In fact, scientists are discovering homosexuality everywhere they look. The lessons for humans are profound, say scientists.

Bruce Bagemihl, author of Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity, says homosexual behaviour has been noted in more than 450 species and more often in wild animals than captive ones. The question is: why? Some researchers say it helps a species' survival. By not producing offspring, homosexuals can help to support relatives' young. 'That's a contribution to the gene pool,' says Professor Marlene Zuk of University of California, Riverside.

Sexuality means more than just procreation, says Zuk. 'In animals like the bonobo, you see expressions of sex outside the period when females are fertile. It means more than making babies. "


Your argument hold little water, other than your own personal opinion.

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
Not true. Most teen-to-adult sex is completely consentual.

How do you figure that?

There cannot be consent if one is a minor.

[Evolution]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
I lived in other societies, and I can say for certain that the gay identity is a complete fabrication of the West.

Ah yes, Honey Vibe's fantastic empirical life. . .just because she's read Hamlet she's a master of Shakespear's works. . .

. . .just because she's Christian she knows God's will. . .

. . .just because she opens her trap her opinion is unwavering truth. . .

When will you learn, Honey Vibe?

:)

[bluejake01]

I feel that no marriage should be recognized by the government, and everyone should be subject to Civil Union legislation. The special treatment reserved for marriage, should be given to couples of all gender pairings. I believe that the decision to call a civil union a "Marriage" should be left in the hands of individual churches and institutions that would perform a spiritual union. This will never happen, so at least I hope that we will see a day when Civil Unions carry the same benefits as marriage.

[gildea]

"You guys are making assumptions about pedophiles. Often the couple (a legal adult and a teen) are only separated by 5-10 years in age."


Um no if you are under the age of consent then u simply aren't mature enough to make those decision the law is there for PROTECTION after all.

Any proof for that statistic by the way?


"Not true. Most teen-to-adult sex is completely consentual."

That comes under manipulations. People agree to take heroin that don't make it right.

Again any actual proof of this statement?

[Mixairian]

Originally posted by Evolution
Ah yes, Honey Vibe's fantastic empirical life. . .just because she's read Hamlet she's a master of Shakespear's works. . .

. . .just because she's Christian she knows God's will. . .

. . .just because she opens her trap her opinion is unwavering truth. . .

When will you learn, Honey Vibe?

:)

m0d be nice...

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
OK, so heterosexuality is a choice as well, based on your arguments. If it isn't nature, then it is environment. So, heterosexuals choose to be what they are, so why do they get preferential treatment?

The biological norm is to reproduce, anything that varies from that probably has overriding drives involved. I've seen studies that show that under the right circumstances and influences, people who are normally quite hetero can be drawn into homo relations.

[Honey Vibe]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
How do you figure that? It's usually a parent that files suit against the adult male or female, on behalf of their son or daughter. The son or the daughter describes their lover as the best thing that ever happened to them, or a true friend and guide through life.