Discussion: Gay Rights

[USMC]

Originally posted by E. Bison
Yes, pretty much. You stay away from bars if you are a recovering alcoholic and away from crack houses if you are a recovering drug addict. Homosexuality of course is the most hardest behavior to change because sexuality in humans is extremely strong and because of media bombardment of sex makes it even harder to reverse but not impossible.

The reason for change though must be a logical one. If you are doing it for the sake of society or family, then you have no reason to change for society and family is not worth changing at all. Only if you are doing it for Jehovah God or for your own benefit from continuing on a downward spiral of sexual perversion.

So, basically, you stay away from gays because you have been tempted to have sex with men? You've been attracted to men and decided to change that for God?

[War Lord]

Originally posted by E. Bison
http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Bane_Lily/bison-yah.gifThe cure for homosexuality does not come in expensive research and medical development, expensive psychoanalysis and research, or genetic and chemical manipulation. The cure only comes with the least expensive of solutions. A strong will to change and the humility and bravery to admit that you had made a mistake.

I disagree with that with just a strong will, humility, and bravery one can change. That hasn't been the experience of many homosexuals who did their best to change on their own and failed. The causes aren't well understood and I don't personally believe that one is born gay myself. I don't hate them, even if I disagree with their choices. The fact that tens of thousands of them have made a successful transition suggests that treatment is not impossible, even if it's very difficult. Does this mean that every homosexual can make a successful transition?

No, just as not every drug addict, alcoholic, sexaholic, etc, etc can be successfully treated. As I said on an earlier thread, if a sanctified marriage is not possible for a person (regardless of the reason and I am a person who probably won't have the privilege of a marriage relationship, anyone can enjoy the deepest relationships and not sin, as long as it's not erotic in nature.

[The Lizard]

Originally posted by E. Bison
[IMG] Only if you are doing it for Jehovah God or for your own benefit from continuing on a downward spiral of sexual perversion.

Spiderrasmon? Dat you?

[War Lord]

Originally posted by The Lizard
Spiderrasmon? Dat you?

I've been told that he's the reincarnation of monkeychow, though I cannot confirm this.

[SpideyInATree]

Originally posted by Hooligan32
Sounds like a severe case of apathy to me. Just bend over and take it in the ass. That doesn't sound like any of the Americans I know. The ones who stand up for what they believe in.

I love my country and I would never live elsewhere. And I can tell that you feel the same way about America. I'm not telling you that it sucks. I'm telling you that you guys have the power to change it. Are Americans not known around the world for being a strong, free people who have constantly fought for the things they believed were right? I never thought of them as a people who would just sit back and say "Oh, well. We're getting ****ed. It'll pass."

That sounds French to me.

Don't accuse me of that, man. Don't. It's not apathy, I'm just telling you like it is. Did I say that I wasn't trying to do something about it? No, I didn't. I was just letting you know that some of us can try as hard as we want and we don't even make a dent. That's what I was trying to get across. But apparently you'd rather try and make me look like I'm less than everybody else by comparing it to The French. If you're just gonna sit there and find something wrong with every statement I say then don't bother to reply to this or anything at all.

You live in Canada, not America. I can appreciate the fact that maybe you want to help out America, that's cool. But the fact remains that if you're gonna sit there and bad mouth America either live in this country or keep you're mouth shut. And if you really do want to make a change then move down to America. You love you're country? That's great, wonderful...grand. Just don't bad mouth things here when you DON'T EVEN LIVE HERE!! Once again, I'm not being mean...I'm just letting you know how I feel about it.

[The Lizard]

Originally posted by jonty30
I've been told that he's the reincarnation of monkeychow, though I cannot confirm this.

Oh that makes sense. The JW-speak threw me for a minute there.

[Franklin Richards]

Originally posted by E. Bison
http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Bane_Lily/bison-yah.gifThe cure for homosexuality does not come in expensive research and medical development, expensive psychoanalysis and research, or genetic and chemical manipulation. The cure only comes with the least expensive of solutions. A strong will to change and the humility and bravery to admit that you had made a mistake.

There is no "cure" for homosexuality.
There is no "cure" for being Jewish.
There is no "cure" for being Christian.
There is no "cure" for being a mutant.
There is no "cure" for being a man.
There is no "cure" for being a woman.
There is no "cure" for being a facist idiot.

If homosexuality is a neurosis then Christianity is a neurosis. That quote offends me so much I'm literally shaking. I can't believe you close minded people.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[sylvia plath]

I don't hate them, even if I disagree with their choices.

Originally posted by jonty30
That hasn't been the experience of many homosexuals who did their best to change on their own and failed.

If you believe homosexuality is a choice then changing shouldn't be difficult at all. Yr argument by default is contradictory.

You mention addictions to drugs, alcohol and sex--diseases individuals suffering from those addictions cater to a craving they can not control or want, but I'm more than content with my homosexuality. From my experiance queers ashamed of their sexuality comes from being shunned by society, specifically their families and school.

So the real problem isn't homosexuals, it's the world at large who do not and choose not to understand what they're passing judgement on, so in essense this is all yr problem, not ours.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
There is no "cure" for homosexuality.
There is no "cure" for being Jewish.
There is no "cure" for being Christian.
There is no "cure" for being a mutant.
There is no "cure" for being a man.
There is no "cure" for being a woman.
There is no "cure" for being a facist idiot.

If homosexuality is a neurosis then Christianity is a neurosis. That quote offends me so much I'm literally shaking. I can't believe you close minded people.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

The fact that there have been thousands of homosexuals who've made a successful transition proves that statement that there's no cure to be a lie. However, not much research is being done to find the most effective and least painful treatment because it's too controversial.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
If you believe homosexuality is a choice then changing shouldn't be difficult at all. Yr argument by default is contradictory.

You mention addictions to drugs, alcohol and sex--diseases individuals suffering from those addictions cater to a craving they can not control or want, but I'm more than content with my homosexuality. From my experiance queers ashamed of their sexuality comes from being shunned by society, specifically their families and school.

So the real problem isn't homosexuals, it's the world at large who do not and choose not to understand what they're passing judgement on, so in essense this is all yr problem, not ours.

Let me be clear, I am not saying that those who don't want treatment should be in anyway punished for their choice. If you're happy, then I'm happy for you.

However, considering that many don't want to be homosexual (for various reasons), if a way can be found to make that happen, then it should be allowed to happen without condemnation either.

Although many Christians have treated homosexuals badly because they don't understand the commandment of love. Christianity is not about instant victory over sin, it's all about following Jesus and allowing Him to lead you where He chooses.

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
The fact that there have been thousands of homosexuals who've made a successful transition proves that statement that there's no cure to be a lie. However, not much research is being done to find the most effective and least painful treatment because it's too controversial.

This bodes down to homosexuals who have been made to feel guilty for their sexuality enough by society to want to change. Does it surprise that an unacceptable behavior by a large body of people is going to make some people uneasy about their person? Tell a person enough times they are wrong and they'll start to believe it. Maybe one day we'll cure you.

[SpideyInATree]

Originally posted by jonty30
The fact that there have been thousands of homosexuals who've made a successful transition proves that statement that there's no cure to be a lie. However, not much research is being done to find the most effective and least painful treatment because it's too controversial.

If they made a transition then apparently they weren't gay in the first place or maybe they just wanted to give a front that they changed, because lets face it...it's hard to be an out in the open homosexual these days.

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by jonty30
Let me be clear, I am not saying that those who don't want treatment should be in anyway punished for their choice. If you're happy, then I'm happy for you.

However, considering that many don't want to be homosexual (for various reasons), if a way can be found to make that happen, then it should be allowed to happen without condemnation either.

Although many Christians have treated homosexuals badly because they don't understand the commandment of love. Christianity is not about instant victory over sin, it's all about following Jesus and allowing Him to lead you where He chooses.


http://electronicintifada.net/al-bassaleh/blackfall2001/images/sheep.jpg

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
This bodes down to homosexuals who have been made to feel guilty for their sexuality enough by society to want to change. Does it surprise that an unacceptable behavior by a large body of people is going to make some people uneasy about their person? Tell a person enough times they are wrong and they'll start to believe it. Maybe one day we'll cure you.

Regardless whether it's due to personal guilt, pressure from others or some other cause - change is change.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by SpideyInATree
If they made a transition then apparently they weren't gay in the first place or maybe they just wanted to give a front that they changed, because lets face it...it's hard to be an out in the open homosexual these days.

You can't say that, since there's no concrete research to either back up that statement or deny it. Any official research into the possiblity is more or less verboten.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by jonty30
The fact that there have been thousands of homosexuals who've made a successful transition proves that statement that there's no cure to be a lie. However, not much research is being done to find the most effective and least painful treatment because it's too controversial.

If people want to change, they can change...but that doesn't make changing a cure. Homosexuality is not a disease...For ****s sake grow up.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
http://electronicintifada.net/al-bassaleh/blackfall2001/images/sheep.jpg

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

I'm sorry I don't speak sheep. What were you trying to say in your native tongue?

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
Let me be clear, I am not saying that those who don't want treatment should be in anyway punished for their choice. If you're happy, then I'm happy for you.

You're not paying attention to what I am saying. I did not decide to be sexually attracted to women. While growing up and reaching puberty I started noticing girls, not boys.


However, considering that many don't want to be homosexual (for various reasons), if a way can be found to make that happen, then it should be allowed to happen without condemnation either.

Yeah, various reasons. Here's a few: rejected by family and society, being made feel guilty of their desires, condencension and ignorance like yours.

Since this is a geek forum I'm going to speak to you like a geek, in X-Men 2 Nightcrawler asks Mystique if she has the ability to look like every one else, why doesn't she do it. Her respond was, "Because we shouldn't have to."


Although many Christians have treated homosexuals badly because they don't understand the commandment of love. Christianity is not about instant victory over sin, it's all about following Jesus and allowing Him to lead you where He chooses.

Religion has no place in this discussion.

[SpideyInATree]

Originally posted by jonty30
You can't say that, since there's no concrete research to either back up that statement or deny it. Any official research into the possiblity is more or less verboten.

I can say whatever I want, I'm a human being just like a homosexual. There isn't any concrete research to prove that homosexuals have been "changed". I'm just thinking like a regular person instead of a scientist. You are homosexual or you're not. There is no changing about it. Those who have changed either weren't gay or they put on a front...that's what I think and you can't change it sucka. :p

[USMC]

Originally posted by jonty30
Regardless whether it's due to personal guilt, pressure from others or some other cause - change is change.

So, again, the problem lies with you. You admonish homosexuality, and treat it as something that is wrong. You are burdening those who may otherwise be happy in their lives with your own belief on the subject. You are pressuring others to change their lives because you do not agree with it.

Change for the sake of change is a waste.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
If people want to change, they can change...but that doesn't make changing a cure. Homosexuality is not a disease...For ****s sake grow up.

I never said that Homosexuality was a disease. If you're going to accuse me of something, then be accurate please.

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by jonty30
I'm sorry I don't speak sheep. What were you trying to say in your native tongue?

Let me translate.

You are a bigoted buffoon, who follows a religion supposedly founded on love, but focuses on hate.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by jonty30
I never said that Homosexuality was a disease. If you're going to accuse me of something, then be accurate please.

Then how else did you mean the word "cure"?

[sylvia plath]

And compare it to alcoholism, sex, and drug addiction.

[sylvia plath]

jonty's in a corner, fried like an englishman. we win. :o

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
1. You're not paying attention to what I am saying. I did not decide to be sexually attracted to women. While growing up and reaching puberty I started noticing girls, not boys.



2. Yeah, various reasons. Here's a few: rejected by family and society, being made feel guilty of their desires, condencension and ignorance like yours.

3. Since this is a geek forum I'm going to speak to you like a geek, in X-Men 2 Nightcrawler asks Mystique if she has the ability to look like every one else, why doesn't she do it. Her respond was, "Because we shouldn't have to."

1. There could be many reasons for that, not necessarily inborn.

2. I am well aware of the lack of love that many homosexualities get from their families. It could very well be one of the causitive reasons for homosexuality in the first place.

3. If you don't want to make any attempt to change, than don't. Just don't say that it can't be done.



Religion has no place in this discussion. [/B]

[USMC]

Originally posted by jonty30
I never said that Homosexuality was a disease. If you're going to accuse me of something, then be accurate please.

You said there is a cure for homosexuality and treatment is warranted. You also compared it with treating alcoholism, drug addiction, and sexual addiction... which are forms of diseases. How else did you mean "cure" and "treatment"?

[War Lord]

Originally posted by SpideyInATree
I can say whatever I want, I'm a human being just like a homosexual. There isn't any concrete research to prove that homosexuals have been "changed". I'm just thinking like a regular person instead of a scientist. You are homosexual or you're not. There is no changing about it. Those who have changed either weren't gay or they put on a front...that's what I think and you can't change it sucka. :p

I have talked to a few who say that they no longer even have a desire for the same gender. I have to take their word for it. Does this mean that all can be changed to that degree? No, but I support any efforts in this direction for those who choose to go in this direction.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by USMC
So, again, the problem lies with you. You admonish homosexuality, and treat it as something that is wrong. You are burdening those who may otherwise be happy in their lives with your own belief on the subject. You are pressuring others to change their lives because you do not agree with it.

Change for the sake of change is a waste.

You're assuming that there isn't anything wrong with it. Just as I'm assuming that anything that falls short of our potential in humanity as created by God is wrong. I pressure nobody, if people don't want to change, than don't.

[sylvia plath]

jonty's dead, now relying on invisible sources to make up for his contradictions.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
Let me translate.

You are a bigoted buffoon, who follows a religion supposedly founded on love, but focuses on hate.

One can be focused on Love and still say that an activity or choice is wrong.

[bluejake01]

OK...guess what Jonty...I can be physically attracted to both men and women. I have always been this way as far as I remember. I have no desire to change. I choose to be bi-sexual and a polyamorist, because it is what makes me and my partners happy. This hapiness does not interfere with anyone elses right to live, and does not hurt anyone. I have the civil right to the pursuit of hapiness. That is a constitutional right. Marriage is a privilege in this country, not a right...so we are denying a portion of the population a privilege, based on sexual preference...and without use of religion, or without a debate about the cause of homosexuality, and definitely without resorting to the assinine argument that if we allow homosexuals to marry that we need to allow marriages between people that aren't consenting adults...I challenge you to show me why that isn't discrimination.

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by jonty30
One can be focused on Love and still say that an activity or choice is wrong.

Wrong according to who?

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
Then how else did you mean the word "cure"?

There is probably a continuum definition. Ranging from not being able to do what is necessary to change to wrestling with desire, but living contentedly to a total change. Just like anything else.

[Franklin Richards]

Can you prove that humanity was created by "god"? And if so how can you interpret his will from a book that a few men decided on 1700 years ago? You have a neurosis and I believe that you can be "cured" of this god delusion you have.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
Can you prove that humanity was created by "god"? And if so how can you interpret his will from a book that a few men decided on 1700 years ago? You have a neurosis and I believe that you can be "cured" of this god delusion you have.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

Amen.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by USMC
You said there is a cure for homosexuality and treatment is warranted. You also compared it with treating alcoholism, drug addiction, and sexual addiction... which are forms of diseases. How else did you mean "cure" and "treatment"?

I'll give you that.:)

Like I said, if a person isn't at a point of desiring change, I have no arguement with him/her. However, if that same person wants to change, why shouldn't there be the best research available to see how it can be done and done effectively?

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
One can be focused on Love and still say that an activity or choice is wrong.

So all this lack of scientific research to prove or disprove the causes of homosexuality just flew out the window, now it's considered "wrong" by jonty almighty. ANOTHER CONTRADICTION.

Hide yr prejudices with thicker lies, jonty. You're not fooling anyone anymore. You're just another Mindworm, exalted, spiderrasmon/e. bison. Yr argument is now impotent.

[USMC]

Originally posted by jonty30
You're assuming that there isn't anything wrong with it. Just as I'm assuming that anything that falls short of our potential in humanity as created by God is wrong. I pressure nobody, if people don't want to change, than don't.

I know there's nothing wrong with it because it does not in any way adversly affect anyone else. The only one's that seem to have a problem with it are the one's who have never been confronted with it, are afraid of things that are different and they don't understand, or that are clinging to thier religion as a reason to not have to understand it. How does loving another person fall short of our potential in humanity as created by God? If anything, being able to love other people expands our potential.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
Can you prove that humanity was created by "god"? And if so how can you interpret his will from a book that a few men decided on 1700 years ago? You have a neurosis and I believe that you can be "cured" of this god delusion you have.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

I love you.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
OK...guess what Jonty...I can be physically attracted to both men and women. I have always been this way as far as I remember. I have no desire to change. I choose to be bi-sexual and a polyamorist, because it is what makes me and my partners happy. This hapiness does not interfere with anyone elses right to live, and does not hurt anyone. I have the civil right to the pursuit of hapiness. That is a constitutional right. Marriage is a privilege in this country, not a right...so we are denying a portion of the population a privilege, based on sexual preference...and without use of religion, or without a debate about the cause of homosexuality, and definitely without resorting to the assinine argument that if we allow homosexuals to marry that we need to allow marriages between people that aren't consenting adults...I challenge you to show me why that isn't discrimination.

That's fine if you don't want to change, I have no arguement with you. However, if you look at the article on what is happening in Scandinavia that I posted, it's quite alarming and I am very concerned about which direction North America is heading. Scandinavia has always been ahead of everybody else in such trends and we've always followed them.

[bluejake01]

Oh and much love and mad uhm...I think the kids call it props...for you USMC, Sylvia, guy-spidey and spidey in a tree. Jonty, I have no personal beef with you, but you can't seem to fomr a cohessive argument, or stay on topic.

[USMC]

Originally posted by jonty30
I'll give you that.:)

Like I said, if a person isn't at a point of desiring change, I have no arguement with him/her. However, if that same person wants to change, why shouldn't there be the best research available to see how it can be done and done effectively?

Then you should consider "why" a person would desire to change. The oppression of the majority will NOT bring about a healthy desire to change. The change would not be healthy for that individual person.

If a group of people confronts your daughter and tells her living a life of abstinence is wrong and stupid and begins to fill her head with the idea that sex for money is a good thing, will that bring about a healthy change?

Change for the sake of change is a waste.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
So all this lack of scientific research to prove or disprove the causes of homosexuality just flew out the window, now it's considered "wrong" by jonty almighty. ANOTHER CONTRADICTION.

Hide yr prejudices with thicker lies, jonty. You're not fooling anyone anymore. You're just another Mindworm, exalted, spiderrasmon/e. bison. Yr argument is now impotent.

I don't believe my arguement is without merit. I've said that if a person wants to change it can probably be done, but if they don't I have no arguement with them. It's you that has said that change is not possible. Absolutes are usually a sign of an arguement without merit.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by jonty30
That's fine if you don't want to change, I have no arguement with you. However, if you look at the article on what is happening in Scandinavia that I posted, it's quite alarming and I am very concerned about which direction North America is heading. Scandinavia has always been ahead of everybody else in such trends and we've always followed them.

Marriage is already in the ****ter, and us **** had nothing to do with that.

[bluejake01]

Oh and Jonty...you still didn't adress the actual topic of this debate, and you can't show any of us a convincing argument as to why this ban on gay marriages woouldn't be discriminatory, or wrong based on the laws and principles of this country...not based on your biasis and religious beliefs.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by USMC
Then you should consider "why" a person would desire to change. The oppression of the majority will NOT bring about a healthy desire to change. The change would not be healthy for that individual person.

If a group of people confronts your daughter and tells her living a life of abstinence is wrong and stupid and begins to fill her head with the idea that sex for money is a good thing, will that bring about a healthy change?

Change for the sake of change is a waste.

Perhaps some people desire a change for their own sake as opposed outside influence. If a person wants to change for their own sake, why shouldn't such help be available? That's no threat to those that don't want to change. I haven't said that such change is mandatory.

[Franklin Richards]

How can marriage be sanctified when Heterosexuals don't even consider it sacred? Divorce is rampant. It's just hetero's being elitists.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
Marriage is already in the ****ter, and us **** had nothing to do with that.

I agree with that. It grieves my heart that society in general doesn't consider marriage sacred. We are all, as a society, going to pay a price for that. Believe me.

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
I don't believe my arguement is without merit. I've said that if a person wants to change it can probably be done, but if they don't I have no arguement with them. It's you that has said that change is not possible. Absolutes are usually a sign of an arguement without merit.

I never said change is not possible, I gave reasons to why some homosexuals would want to change.

You're the one who kept bringing up this scientific research babble, that there wasn't enough research for a full understanding of homosexuality. Or is that argument no longer valid now that you've contradicted yrselves no less than three times?

lies and deceit, you're probably a republican, too.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
Oh and Jonty...you still didn't adress the actual topic of this debate, and you can't show any of us a convincing argument as to why this ban on gay marriages woouldn't be discriminatory, or wrong based on the laws and principles of this country...not based on your biasis and religious beliefs.

If I thought that marriage was simply a social contract between two people, there wouldn't be any arguement from me. However, marriage is a holy sacrement between a man and a woman sanctified by God. There isn't an alternative to this, imo.

Considering that Homosexuals can live together by their choice anywhere in the country, your concern about your rights in this is unfounded. After all, if marriage is just a social contract, your purpose has been achieved.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
How can marriage be sanctified when Heterosexuals don't even consider it sacred? Divorce is rampant. It's just hetero's being elitists.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

I am much grieved about how people in general treat marriage. Believe me.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by jonty30
I agree with that. It grieves my heart that society in general doesn't consider marriage sacred. We are all, as a society, going to pay a price for that. Believe me.

And you know what? Homosexuals wouldn't fight so damned hard for legal marriage status, if they didn't cherish the institution of marriage and commitment. SO how could that destroy marriage? The heterosexual community has lost respect for marriage as a whole, and yet the homosexual community hold it on a pedestal...put two and two together. I may be poly, but I am faithful and honest to my two signifigant others. I have never, and never will betray them, like a majority of married couples betray eachother.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
I never said change is not possible, I gave reasons to why some homosexuals would want to change.

You're the one who kept bringing up this scientific research babble, that there wasn't enough research for a full understanding of homosexuality. Or is that argument no longer valid now that you've contradicted yrselves no less than three times?

lies and deceit, you're probably a republican, too.

I can't be a republican, because I'm Canadian. A lack of scientific research in allowing homosexuals to change isn't proof that they can't change. A lack of willingness to research the topic is much behind it because if such treatment was widely available and was proven highly effective, then it would turn the subject on its head.

[Franklin Richards]

...so what about Atheists? ...what about Buddhists <sp?>? is it okay for them to get married? ....how bout a ship's captain? can he legally marry someone without god even mentioned?

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
If I thought that marriage was simply a social contract between two people, there wouldn't be any arguement from me. However, marriage is a holy sacrement between a man and a woman sanctified by God. There isn't an alternative to this, imo.

ahem. ..

Originally posted by sylvia plath
But this argument has a lot to do with what the Bible says, but what does it say about marriage? Not much. the Old Testament suggests polygamy as a model for marriage. Solomon had two-hunded wives and six-hundred-plus concubines. Abraham had his first child by his wife's slave. The New Testiment is even iffier. Jesus didn't say much about marriage, and both John and Paul were single men, and Paul recommended chastity and about marriage he said, "Marriage is not a sin but it is better to be unmarried."


Considering that Homosexuals can live together by their choice anywhere in the country, your concern about your rights in this is unfounded. After all, if marriage is just a social contract, your purpose has been achieved.

Civil unions is another version of seperate but equal. Even with the law you have no argument.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by jonty30
If I thought that marriage was simply a social contract between two people, there wouldn't be any arguement from me. However, marriage is a holy sacrement between a man and a woman sanctified by God. There isn't an alternative to this, imo.

Considering that Homosexuals can live together by their choice anywhere in the country, your concern about your rights in this is unfounded. After all, if marriage is just a social contract, your purpose has been achieved.

Then you just said it...marriage is a holy sacrement...and shouldn't have any place in the government at all. So there shouldn't be a constitutional ban on something that is a church issue. Thanks for proving my point...good day.


PS some churches, in fact quite a few perform homosexual commitment ceremonies...shouldn't it be up to each church, and their religious beliefs as to which ones will sanctify a gay marriage?

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
And you know what? Homosexuals wouldn't fight so damned hard for legal marriage status, if they didn't cherish the institution of marriage and commitment. SO how could that destroy marriage? The heterosexual community has lost respect for marriage as a whole, and yet the homosexual community hold it on a pedestal...put two and two together. I may be poly, but I am faithful and honest to my two signifigant others. I have never, and never will betray them, like a majority of married couples betray eachother.

Read the article on Scandinavia that I posted earlier on in this thread. Perhaps you'll understand my concerns, even if you disagree with me.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
...so what about Atheists? ...what about Buddhists <sp?>? is it okay for them to get married? ....how bout a ship's captain? can he legally marry someone without god even mentioned?

:thing: :doom: :thing:

If the athiests and buddhists and others were married according how the Bible describes marriage, it's just as holy as any Christian marriage. It's the obedience of the act that makes it holy, not who gets married.

[Franklin Richards]

Originally posted by jonty30
I can't be a republican, because I'm Canadian. A lack of scientific research in allowing homosexuals to change isn't proof that they can't change. A lack of willingness to research the topic is much behind it because if such treatment was widely available and was proven highly effective, then it would turn the subject on its head.

I'm sure lobotomies and electric shock therapy would work...

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Franklin Richards]

Originally posted by jonty30
If the athiests and buddhists and others were married according how the Bible describes marriage, it's just as holy as any Christian marriage. It's the obedience of the act that makes it holy, not who gets married.

says who?

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[bluejake01]

Jonty...give up...you have even gone so far as to prove my argument for me...Just go play somewhere...maybe drink one of those really smooth Canadian beers for me eh?

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
If the athiests and buddhists and others were married according how the Bible describes marriage, it's just as holy as any Christian marriage. It's the obedience of the act that makes it holy, not who gets married.


Originally posted by sylvia plath
But this argument has a lot to do with what the Bible says, but what does it say about marriage? Not much. the Old Testament suggests polygamy as a model for marriage. Solomon had two-hunded wives and six-hundred-plus concubines. Abraham had his first child by his wife's slave. The New Testiment is even iffier. Jesus didn't say much about marriage, and both John and Paul were single men, and Paul recommended chastity and about marriage he said, "Marriage is not a sin but it is better to be unmarried."

When are you going to quit, jonty? :p

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
ahem. ..





Civil unions is another version of seperate but equal. Even with the law you have no argument. [/B]

Like I said, if marriage is simply a social contract, than I have no arguement. However, if marriage is a holy sacrement between a man and a woman before God, than any deviation from that isn't going to be a holy union, regardless how permanent or valued it may be. It doesn't matter if it's even done before a priest. God defines what makes something holy, not you or I.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
I'm sure lobotomies and electric shock therapy would work...

:thing: :doom: :thing:

Don't know about that. EST seems to help with depression though.

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
Like I said, if marriage is simply a social contract, than I have no arguement. However, if marriage is a holy sacrement between a man and a woman before God, than any deviation from that isn't going to be a holy union, regardless how permanent or valued it may be. It doesn't matter if it's even done before a priest. God defines what makes something holy, not you or I.


Originally posted by sylvia plath
But this argument has a lot to do with what the Bible says, but what does it say about marriage? Not much. the Old Testament suggests polygamy as a model for marriage. Solomon had two-hunded wives and six-hundred-plus concubines. Abraham had his first child by his wife's slave. The New Testiment is even iffier. Jesus didn't say much about marriage, and both John and Paul were single men, and Paul recommended chastity and about marriage he said, "Marriage is not a sin but it is better to be unmarried."

When are you going to quit, jonty? :p

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
says who?

:thing: :doom: :thing:

If the Bible is the Word of God and there's much proof for those interested that it is, than whatever it says goes.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by jonty30
Like I said, if marriage is simply a social contract, than I have no arguement. However, if marriage is a holy sacrement between a man and a woman before God, than any deviation from that isn't going to be a holy union, regardless how permanent or valued it may be. It doesn't matter if it's even done before a priest. God defines what makes something holy, not you or I.

So why are you claiming to know God's will on the subject? What are you basing that on? Certainly not the bible, since the definition of marriage changes radically throught the text. And certainly you don't claim to be the voice of god...so...contribute to the debate and explain to us all why there is a legal call for a ban on gay marriage...show where in the American legislative structure there is room for religious legislation. We have something called seperation of church and state.

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
If the Bible is the Word of God and there's much proof for those interested that it is, than whatever it says goes.


Originally posted by sylvia plath
But this argument has a lot to do with what the Bible says, but what does it say about marriage? Not much. the Old Testament suggests polygamy as a model for marriage. Solomon had two-hunded wives and six-hundred-plus concubines. Abraham had his first child by his wife's slave. The New Testiment is even iffier. Jesus didn't say much about marriage, and both John and Paul were single men, and Paul recommended chastity and about marriage he said, "Marriage is not a sin but it is better to be unmarried."

When are you going to quit, jonty?

You've given up the bibilical, lawful, and personal side to yr arguments. All have fallen flat. You have nothing.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
When are you going to quit, jonty? :p

The Old Testament doesn't say that polygamy is the way to go. It just simply says that's what the ancient Hebrews did. Just as it said that child sacrifice was performed doesn't mean that it approved of it. Jesus didn't have to say much about marriage nor many subjects, because that wasn't his mission.

Actually Paul was commenting that being single is better because it allows one to serve God better without being bound by marriage. He wasn't anti marriage.

[sylvia plath]

To top it off the guy isn't even an American. A complete joke.

[Franklin Richards]

Originally posted by jonty30
Like I said, if marriage is simply a social contract, than I have no arguement. However, if marriage is a holy sacrement between a man and a woman before God, than any deviation from that isn't going to be a holy union, regardless how permanent or valued it may be. It doesn't matter if it's even done before a priest. God defines what makes something holy, not you or I.


would you tell god to give me a call? I'd really like to ask him what the hell he's been doing for the last 6000 years. Sure as hell hasn't been on this planet. Is god running for office? I don't think I'd vote for a god of love that demands the blood of innocents and won't allow people into his heaven because they we're born in South America and never heard of Jesus Christ. I wonder if people got married BC? I'm sure Zeus might be interested.
You need to come out of the dark ages and stop promoting black magic and superstition.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[bluejake01]

Ms. Plath...what say we quit playing this silly little game? It's losing it's fun for me, since he is not listening. He will keep his beliefs, and you can't argue with faith. You can lead the blindly faithful to logic, but you can't make them think.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
would you tell god to give me a call? I'd really like to ask him what the hell he's been doing for the last 6000 years. Sure as hell hasn't been on this planet. Is god running for office? I don't think I'd vote for a god of love that demands the blood of innocents and won't allow people into his heaven because they we're born in South America and never heard of Jesus Christ. I wonder if people got married BC? I'm sure Zeus might be interested.
You need to come out of the dark ages and stop promoting black magic and superstition.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

I just fell in love with you again

[Franklin Richards]

"You can lead the blindly faithful to logic, but you can't make them think."
good one...

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by jonty30
If the Bible is the Word of God and there's much proof for those interested that it is, than whatever it says goes.

Holy crap!!!:eek:

The bible is a racist, sexist, elitest and not to mention contradictory, document.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
Ms. Plath...what say we quit playing this silly little game? It's losing it's fun for me, since he is not listening. He will keep his beliefs, and you can't argue with faith. You can lead the blindly faithful to logic, but you can't make them think.

You guys haven't answered my question. If a person wants to stop being homosexual of his own free will, why shouldn't there be research done to find out how to do it effectively?

[War Lord]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
Holy crap!!!:eek:

The bible is a racist, sexist, elitest and not to mention contradictory, document.

Where are the contradictions?

How is it racist?

How is it elitest?

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by jonty30
You guys haven't answered my question. If a person wants to stop being homosexual of his own free will, why shouldn't there be research done to find out how to do it effectively?

According to you and your tens of thousands of people that have done it, and all the research you "qouted" it's already taken care of...

[Franklin Richards]

because of this little word...













you ready?
















EVIL



:thing: :doom: :thing:

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by jonty30
You guys haven't answered my question. If a person wants to stop being homosexual of his own free will, why shouldn't there be research done to find out how to do it effectively?

Then the same could be said of some hetero guy wanting to stop being straight?:confused:

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by jonty30
Where are the contradictions?

How is it racist?

How is it elitest?

If you aren't aware of the racial prejudices and ethnic cleansing portrayed in the bible, or the contridictions found throughout the text....you aren't nearly as familiar with theology as you claim to be...sitting here telling everyone how you know for sure what god's will is. Please...I am so done fighting with an unarmed man like yourself.

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by jonty30
Where are the contradictions?

Every other page.

How is it racist?

Well for one, somewhere in there it says something like black men are 4/5 human.

How is it elitest?

Let's see. If you do not read this thing and follow it, or if you are not of our mindset you are going straight to hell.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
According to you and your tens of thousands of people that have done it, and all the research you "qouted" it's already taken care of...

Any web search can prove this enough.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/917138/posts

http://www.sbministries.org/

It can happen.

[sylvia plath]

Moses, "Let my people go." Hello, jonty? god, an imbecile to boot.

[DocStrange516]

Originally posted by jonty30
If the Bible is the Word of God and there's much proof for those interested that it is, than whatever it says goes.


The Bible is not the word of God, it is God's words INTERPRETED by the authors of the Bible, mainly white, heterosexual, older males. BTW God wouldn't see homosexuality as evil, because "He" is neither male nor female IMO.


Bottom Line: Bush is an ass, gays should be able to marry, and the majority is ignorant.


"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[War Lord]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
Then the same could be said of some hetero guy wanting to stop being straight?:confused:

You ever hear of prison?

Unfortunately prison rape is all too common.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by jonty30
Any web search can prove this enough.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/917138/posts

http://www.sbministries.org/

It can happen.

So then the research is done, and those that want to change can...no one denied that...so your question is answered, and it looks like everything is all square...you are still ignorant for equating homosexuality with addiction and disease.

[DocStrange516]

Originally posted by jonty30
You ever hear of prison?

Unfortunately prison rape is all too common.

It is homosexual, but not Homosexuality. It's also a good deterrent for would be criminals.

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
You ever hear of prison?

Unfortunately prison rape is all too common.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

He's got nothing, do you see that? Nothing.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by guy-spidey


Name some contradictions and I'll show you why they are not.

It doesn't say anywhere that Black men are 4/5 human. You either misunderstood something (though I don't have a clue as to what that could be) or some racist is pulling your leg.

It isn't elitest. The fact that anybody can choose to be saved or not choose to be saved is proof of that. The only thing is that you need to make a choice. That is hardly elitest.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
So then the research is done, and those that want to change can...no one denied that...so your question is answered, and it looks like everything is all square...you are still ignorant for equating homosexuality with addiction and disease.

I equate it with addiction, but I never said it was a disease. Disease is a physical condition, addiction is mental.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by DocStrange516
It is homosexual, but not Homosexuality. It's also a good deterrent for would be criminals.

I differentiate between desire and the physical act. One might be tempted to have sex with somebody of the same gender, but as long as it's not done that person isn't a homosexual. Just as a murderer is somebody who actually kills people, not simply think about it.

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by jonty30
Name some contradictions and I'll show you why they are not.

It doesn't say anywhere that Black men are 4/5 human. You either misunderstood something (though I don't have a clue as to what that could be) or some racist is pulling your leg.

It isn't elitest. The fact that anybody can choose to be saved or not choose to be saved is proof of that. The only thing is that you need to make a choice. That is hardly elitest.

It's in there.

Listen to what you are saying. It is not elitest becuase anybody can choose to be saved. WTF! That in itself is elitest.

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30

It isn't elitest. The fact that anybody can choose to be saved or not choose to be saved is proof of that. The only thing is that you need to make a choice. That is hardly elitest.

Anything or anyone proclaiming themselves to be the be all or end all entity is extreamly elitist. Frankly, the god protrayed in the bible is one arrogant SOB. "WORSHIP ME AND ONLY ME!" He also created humanity for the sole purpose of worshiping HIM. That's one arrogant ****.

[Franklin Richards]

Originally posted by jonty30
Name some contradictions and I'll show you why they are not.

It doesn't say anywhere that Black men are 4/5 human. You either misunderstood something (though I don't have a clue as to what that could be) or some racist is pulling your leg.

It isn't elitest. The fact that anybody can choose to be saved or not choose to be saved is proof of that. The only thing is that you need to make a choice. That is hardly elitest.

what about a baby that has never accepted Jesus Christ into their heart?

what about an Australian Bushman who never heard of Jesus?

Do they get to go to Christian Heaven?

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
I differentiate between desire and the physical act. One might be tempted to have sex with somebody of the same gender, but as long as it's not done that person isn't a homosexual. Just as a murderer is somebody who actually kills people, not simply think about it.

You said prison is an institute for heterosexuals who do not wish to be. You're just grasping at straws. You have nothing. :o

You also said [ in the quote above ] that you differentiate between desire and physical act, yet the following sentence contradicts the one that preceeded it yet again. That's the FOURTH CONTRADICTION.

Anyway, even if a person has the desire to have sexual realtions with a person of the same sex, yr precious bible says that a man commits sin in his heart by simply thinking it. FIFTH CONTRADICTION.

I'm starting to enjoy this. jonty, say something else so i can devistate yr argument.

[Franklin Richards]

Originally posted by jonty30
I differentiate between desire and the physical act. One might be tempted to have sex with somebody of the same gender, but as long as it's not done that person isn't a homosexual. Just as a murderer is somebody who actually kills people, not simply think about it.

but doesn't Matthew 5:28 say...
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. "

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[El Diablo]

Originally posted by jonty30
I differentiate between desire and the physical act. One might be tempted to have sex with somebody of the same gender, but as long as it's not done that person isn't a homosexual. Just as a murderer is somebody who actually kills people, not simply think about it.

so a virgin is not a heterosexual?

[War Lord]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
It's in there.

Listen to what you are saying. It is not elitest becuase anybody can choose to be saved. WTF! That in itself is elitest.

How is having a choice between being saved and unsaved elitest?

State some contradictions. You made the claim, now support it in some way.:)

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
Anything or anyone proclaiming themselves to be the be all or end all entity is extreamly elitist. Frankly, the god protrayed in the bible is one arrogant SOB. "WORSHIP ME AND ONLY ME!" He also created humanity for the sole purpose of worshiping HIM. That's one arrogant ****.

Christianity is not a worshipping religion, it's a relationship one.

[bluejake01]

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." -- Exodus 20:8

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." -- Romans 14:5

[bluejake01]

"... the earth abideth for ever." -- Ecclesiastes 1:4

"... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." -- 2Peter 3:10

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
Christianity is not a worshipping religion, it's a relationship one.

That's not in the bible I read. All God kept saying is "WORSHIP ME AND ONLY ME!" If you're denying that then say hello to contradiction number six. :o

[bluejake01]

"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
what about a baby that has never accepted Jesus Christ into their heart?

what about an Australian Bushman who never heard of Jesus?

Do they get to go to Christian Heaven?

:thing: :doom: :thing:

As I understand it, we will be judged by the light that we knew. An Australian Bushman may not have heard of Christ, but he knows not to murder. A baby has no understanding, so I suspect that the baby is automatically saved.

[Franklin Richards]

Originally posted by jonty30
How is having a choice between being saved and unsaved elitest?

State some contradictions. You made the claim, now support it in some way.:)

ON THE SABBATH DAY
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." -- Exodus 20:8

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." -- Romans 14:5




ON THE PERMANENCY OF THE EARTH
"... the earth abideth for ever." -- Ecclesiastes 1:4

"... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." -- 2Peter 3:10




ON SEEING GOD
"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18




ON HUMAN SACRIFICE
"... Thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God..." -- Leviticus 18:21

[In Judges, though, the tale of Jephthah, who led the Israelites against the Ammonoites, is being told. Being fearful of defeat, this good religious man sought to guarantee victory by getting god firmly on his side. So he prayed to god] "... If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering" (Judges 11:30-31).

[The terms were acceptable to god -- remember, he is supposed to be omniscient and know the future -- so he gave victory to Jephthah, and the first whatsoever that greeted him upon his glorious return was his daughter, as god surely knew would happen, if god is god. True to his vow, the general made a human sacrifice of his only child to god!] -- Judges 11:29-34




ON THE POWER OF GOD
"... with God all things are possible." -- Matthew 19:26

"...The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." -- Judges 1:19




ON DEALING WITH PERSONAL INJURY
"...thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. " -- Exodus 21:23-25

"...ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." -- Matthew 5:39




ON CIRCUMCISION
"This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." -- Genesis 17:10

"...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." -- Galatians 5:2




ON INCEST
"Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of this mother..." -- Deuteronomy 27:22

"And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter...it is a wicked thing...." -- Leviticus 20:17

[But what was god's reaction to Abraham, who married his sister -- his father's daughter?] See Genesis 20:11-12

"And God said unto Abraham, As for Sara thy wife...I bless her, and give thee a son also of her..." -- Genesis 17:15-16




ON TRUSTING GOD
"A good man obtaineth favour of the LORD..." -- Proverbs 12:2

Now consider the case of Job. After commissioning Satan to ruin Job financially and to slaughter his shepherds and children to win a petty bet with Satan. God asked Satan: "Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause." -- Job 2:3




ON THE HOLY LIFE-STYLE
"Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart..." -- Ecclesiastes 9:7

"...they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not..." -- 1 Corinthians 7:30




ON PUNISHING CRIME
"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." -- Ezekiel 18:20

"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." -- Exodus 20:5




ON TEMPTATION
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." -- James 1:13

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1




ON FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS
"Honor thy father and thy mother..."-- Exodus 20:12

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. " -- Luke 14:26




ON RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
"...he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. " -- Job 7:9

"...the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth...." -- John 5:28-29




ON THE END OF THE WORLD
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. " -- Matthew 16:28

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. " -- Luke 21:32-33

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light." -- Romans 13:11-12

"Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." -- James 5:8

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." -- 1 John 2:18

"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." -- 1 Peter 4:7

These words were written between 1800 and 1900 years ago and were meant to warn and prepare the first Christians for the immediate end of the world. Some words are those supposedly straight out of the mouth of the "Son of God." The world did not end 1800 or 1900 years ago. All that generation passed away without any of the things foretold coming to pass. No amount of prayer brought it about; nor ever so much patience and belief and sober living. The world went on, as usual, indifferent to the spoutings of yet another batch of doomsday prophets with visions of messiahs dancing in their deluded brains. The world, by surviving, makes the above passages contradictions.


want some more?

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[bluejake01]

"...thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. " -- Exodus 21:23-25

"...ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." -- Matthew 5:39

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by bluejake01
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." -- Exodus 20:8

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." -- Romans 14:5 I'm not taking sides, just reading along. But that's not a fair comparisson. A lot changed between the Old and New Testament. God actually changed some things (like in the Old Testament, only the Jews are the chosen people, but in the New Testament, we all are, etc.). It's a bad comparisson, that's all.

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
A baby has no understanding, so I suspect that the baby is automatically saved.

jonty30, spokesman for god, ladies and gentlemen. We should feel honored to have such an esteemed collegue of the almighty in our company.

it's easier for you to admit you don't know, instead of talking out of yr cleaner mouth.

[Franklin Richards]

Originally posted by jonty30
As I understand it, we will be judged by the light that we knew. An Australian Bushman may not have heard of Christ, but he knows not to murder. A baby has no understanding, so I suspect that the baby is automatically saved.

I and the Father are one. I AM the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by Me.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." -- Exodus 20:8

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." -- Romans 14:5

Ahhh, the contradictions.

Biblical scholars recognized that the word Sabbath simply means day of rest. However, there were two types of sabbaths. The first is the day that was sanctified day by God. The others were significant days in the Jewish life to commemorate important dates, such as the Passover.

Paul was dealing with Jewish Christians who believed that Gentile Christians had to be like them and keep the same days as Jews. Paul was simply saying, in regard to those lesser sabbaths, that if you think it's an important day to keep than do so. However, if you don't have that same conviction, than don't.

[Franklin Richards]

How is it that an atheist knows more about your religion than you do? You really should read the dogma you espouse.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[bluejake01]

God can do anything - Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37
God is limited in what he can do - Judges 1:19, Mark 6:5-6




God wants everyone to be saved - 1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:9
God does not want everyone to be saved - Prov 16:4, Mark 4:11-12, Rom 9:18, 2 Thess 2:11




The returnees from Babylonian exile in 537/536 BCE.
42,360 in Ezra 2:64, but 9,818 in Ezra 2:3-60 and 31,089 in Nehemiah 7:7-65.




God is not angry for long - Psa 30:5, 103:9, Micah 7:18
God is angry for a long time - Num 32:13, Rev 14:11, 20:10




God never lies and hates lying - Ex 23:1, Num 23:19, Prov 12:22, Titus 1:2
God himself lies - 1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chron 18:22, 2 Thess 2:11




God does not repent (ie. regret an action/change his mind) - Num 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29, Mal 3:6
God does repent (ie. regret an action/change his mind) - Gen 6:6-7, Ex 32:14, 1 Sam 15:35, 2 Sam 24:16, 1 Chron 21:15, Jer 18:8,10, 26:3,13,19, 42:10, Ezek 24:14, Joel 2:13, Amos 7:3, Jonah 3:10




The earth has no foundation - Job 26:7
The earth does have foundations - 1 Sam 2:8, Psa 104:5




God feeds and cares for all life - Psa 145:15-16
God does not feed and care for all life - Deut 28:48, Isa 5:13, 8:21, 50:2




God is warlike - Ex 15:3, Psa 24:8, Rev 19:11,13
Man should be peaceful as God is - Matt 5:9, John 14:27, Rom 15:33, 2 Thess 3:16




Graven images not to be made - Ex 20:4
Graven images are to be made - Ex 25:18




The earth is God/Jesus' - Psa 24:1, 1 Cor 10:26, Rev 1:5
The earth is the devil's - John 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4




God dwells in light - Psa 104:1,2, 1 Tim 6:15-16, 1 John 1:5
God dwells in darkness - 1 Kings 8:12, 2 Chron 6:1, Psa 18:11, Psa 97:1-2




Jesus is God - John 1:1, John 20:288
Jesus is inferior/subordinate to God - John 14:28, 1 Cor 11:3, 15:28

[Tukiluka]

Tukiluka is thy one true God.

Tukiluka 14:3

[Franklin Richards]

I think we made our point. You wanted examples of contradictions and elitism. There ya go...

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
You said prison is an institute for heterosexuals who do not wish to be. You're just grasping at straws. You have nothing. :o

You also said [ in the quote above ] that you differentiate between desire and physical act, yet the following sentence contradicts the one that preceeded it yet again. That's the FOURTH CONTRADICTION.

Anyway, even if a person has the desire to have sexual realtions with a person of the same sex, yr precious bible says that a man commits sin in his heart by simply thinking it. FIFTH CONTRADICTION.

I'm starting to enjoy this. jonty, say something else so i can devistate yr argument.

I said that prison is a place where some heterosexuals have performed homosexual acts. So yes, some heteros have chosen to perform homosexual acts.

There's no contradiction, I believe that it's not necessarily the thoughts that make a person, but their acts. AFAIC, a homosexual is a person that does the act, not simply having the desire.

A sinful thought is simply that, a thought. It doesn't make it a sinful act. All sins are forgiveable at any rate.

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by jonty30
How is having a choice between being saved and unsaved elitest?

State some contradictions. You made the claim, now support it in some way.:)

I just got back and there above me I see a plethora of contradictions.

By saying that choosing to be saved by believing in what you believe in, would indicate that if I chose not to believe I will not be saved.

Our way or the highway.

Therefore, elitest.

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
I think we made our point. You wanted examples of contradictions and elitism. There ya go...

:thing: :doom: :thing: Are you talking to me or Jonty?

[guy-spidey]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
Tukiluka is thy one true God.

Tukiluka 14:3

Tukiluka loves HM Murdock.

guy-spidey 12:10

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
Tukiluka loves HM Murdock.

guy-spidey 12:10 No! I don't like him. :( Well, sometimes I guess...:(

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
but doesn't Matthew 5:28 say...
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. "

:thing: :doom: :thing:

As a principle, yes because the goal of a Christian is to align their thoughts to holy thoughts. This can take beyond a lifetime. God knows that as far as I have come as a Christian, I have a lifetime to go. I'm thankful that God will forgive all my sins, whether thought or action. Sins are sins and it's unfortunate that some in the church have treated homosexuals as lepers. It breaks my heart.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
I'm not taking sides, just reading along. But that's not a fair comparisson. A lot changed between the Old and New Testament. God actually changed some things (like in the Old Testament, only the Jews are the chosen people, but in the New Testament, we all are, etc.). It's a bad comparisson, that's all.

In all fairness god didn't write any of the text...people did, and people are fallable. No man is perfect, and the authors of the bible had their own perceptions of events and spirituality. The point I am trying to make is that the Bible is not an infallable document. Not only that, it is full of holes where church leaders through out the ceturies removed text they didn't like. The apocraphy is the most interesting part of the bible. I myself am a Pagan, but I came to that through my own searching and spiritual investigation. The higher power found it's way to speak to me, and that is what works for me. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but the laws should not be based on those beliefs...that is not how this country is meant to work. Jonty dodges the issues, because he has no answers fro the actual debate at hand.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by El Diablo
so a virgin is not a heterosexual?

A virgin is simply a person who hasn't experienced sex. God's will for sexual matters is that unless you're in a sanctified marriage relationship, celebacy is an acceptable option.

[Honey Vibe]

Originally posted by logansoldcigar
well, ive got some stats for ya

lookie here (http://www.australianparentsformeganslaw.com/docs/impact.tpl) It didn't load, but, Australia???

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
"... the earth abideth for ever." -- Ecclesiastes 1:4

"... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." -- 2Peter 3:10

You can't destroy the earth. The Earth will be on fire, perhaps to the point where it will be a liquid plasma floating in space, but Revelation mentions that it will be created.

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by bluejake01
In all fairness god didn't write any of the text...people did, I AM NOT a Jesus freak...but how exactly do you know that the men who wrote it were not touched by divine guidance?

So in all fairness, you can't say that.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
That's not in the bible I read. All God kept saying is "WORSHIP ME AND ONLY ME!" If you're denying that then say hello to contradiction number six. :o

You're right that God says worship is only for Him, because He is a jealous God. However, nothing else is worthy of worship. No contradiction there. However, worship is not mindless tripe. It's based in a relationship.

[guy-spidey]

I worship cotton swabs.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
I AM NOT a Jesus freak...but how exactly do you know that the men who wrote it were not touched by divine guidance?

So in all fairness, you can't say that.

But you can't say that they were...and even if they were people are fallable, and subject to dishonesty. Then you have to account for centuries of imporoper translation and editing. So I am not saying it isn't possible that god spoke through someone...I am saying it is probable that the documents have been changed and altered to a point where incorrect interpretaion of gods word is almost a certainty.

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by bluejake01
In all fairness god didn't write any of the text...people did, and people are fallable. No man is perfect, and the authors of the bible had their own perceptions of events and spirituality. The point I am trying to make is that the Bible is not an infallable document. Not only that, it is full of holes where church leaders through out the ceturies removed text they didn't like. The apocraphy is the most interesting part of the bible. I myself am a Pagan, but I came to that through my own searching and spiritual investigation. The higher power found it's way to speak to me, and that is what works for me. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but the laws should not be based on those beliefs...that is not how this country is meant to work. Jonty dodges the issues, because he has no answers fro the actual debate at hand. On a further note, it is good that you have found a way to express your spirituality. And yes, the Bible has given me pause for thought more times than I'd like to remember. I haven't read a lot of the Apochrapha (some Enoch), but I agree...very interesting.

I think Jonty is wrong to argue this from a religious standpoint. But I also think the counterarguement of bashing his religion is just as fruitless.

[Franklin Richards]

Well... I think I'm done beating this dead horse. Toodles!

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
I said that prison is a place where some heterosexuals have performed homosexual acts. So yes, some heteros have chosen to perform homosexual acts.

No, someone asked you if there was a place where a heterosexual wanted to be cured of his heterosexuality, you said prison. That's idiotic. And now you've changed yr argument again.


A sinful thought is simply that, a thought. It doesn't make it a sinful act. All sins are forgiveable at any rate.

You're not following the word of god. The bible says a man who thinks of another woman other than his wife has already sinned in his heart. A sin is a sin or are you making up new rules for what makes really big sins and not so damaging ones? And by saying "All sins are forfiveable at any rate" then why the chip on yr shoulder? If god forgives everything why wouldn't he forgive homosexuals? I'll tell you why, because it deflates yr argument to nothing yet AGAIN.

You've spoken for god, made up rules for him and regarded sins as "little ones" and "big ones" but it doesn't matter since they're all forgiven. You're dead, again.

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by Tukiluka


I think Jonty is wrong to argue this from a religious standpoint. But I also think the counterarguement of bashing his religion is just as fruitless.

I have not bashed any religion.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18

At least quote in context, not just portions of quotes.


John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
NIV

In other words, nobody has seen God the father. God the Son has been seen throughout the Old and New Testament.

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by bluejake01
But you can't say that they were...and even if they were people are fallable, and subject to dishonesty. Then you have to account for centuries of imporoper translation and editing. So I am not saying it isn't possible that god spoke through someone...I am saying it is probable that the documents have been changed and altered to a point where incorrect interpretaion of gods word is almost a certainty. Oh, I don't say they were. I say "I don't know." There is no way I'm ever going to know, unless God tells me himself, and I'm not holding out hope there.

Have the texts been changed, undoubtedly. Do I think they still pretty much hold the meaning they started out with...yeah. But I'm with you...the Bible is a confusing *****. It's also one of the greatest pieces of literature (true or not) ever written.

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by bluejake01
I have not bashed any religion. No, not you. ;)

[Brodie Bruce]

Billiam is so wise:eek:

[The Lizard]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
Oh, I don't say they were. I say "I don't know." There is no way I'm ever going to know, unless God tells me himself, and I'm not holding out hope there.

Have the texts been changed, undoubtedly. Do I think they still pretty much hold the meaning they started out with...yeah. But I'm with you...the Bible is a confusing *****. It's also one of the greatest pieces of literature (true or not) ever written.

Too bad God doesn't still speak through his mouthpieces, the Prophets, to clarify all this stuff, eh? ;)

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
Oh, I don't say they were. I say "I don't know." There is no way I'm ever going to know, unless God tells me himself, and I'm not holding out hope there.

Have the texts been changed, undoubtedly. Do I think they still pretty much hold the meaning they started out with...yeah. But I'm with you...the Bible is a confusing *****. It's also one of the greatest pieces of literature (true or not) ever written.

I whole heartedly agree. It's great literature, and has some incredible things to say about human nature and spirituality. I respect all religions, but get rather fed up witgh people that use the name of God and Jesus to deny groups of people the same freedom to live how they will and believe what they will that they themselves take advantage of.

[GunBlade]

So..are we all getting along now? :confused:

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by jonty30
You're right that God says worship is only for Him, because He is a jealous God. However, nothing else is worthy of worship.

Perhaps to you, however there's several other religions and followers who follow their own paths, that may or may not directly go against the rules of yr religion and feel just as confident about their faith as you do of yours.

But if you give me a few moments, Mr. Press Secretary, I would really like to know what's in the mind of god. You being his spokesperson and all, I think I and billions of others would benefit from knowing just what the ole boy is thinking. Something along the lines of, oh, i dont know. ..disease, famine, war, rape, murder, price of gasoline. . you know, for starters.

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by The Lizard
Too bad God doesn't still speak through his mouthpieces, the Prophets, to clarify all this stuff, eh? ;) Different rooms call for different arguements! :D I start whipping out faith and prophets, I'll be taken for a zealot! :D

[bluejake01]

Originally posted by The Lizard
Too bad God doesn't still speak through his mouthpieces, the Prophets, to clarify all this stuff, eh? ;)

Kinda funny how no one would believe someone that says God was talking through them if they were standing face to face with them, but they believe a book that has been butchered by time without question or reason.

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
I AM NOT a Jesus freak...but how exactly do you know that the men who wrote it were not touched by divine guidance?

So in all fairness, you can't say that.

Sure, he can. Because god doesn't exist. :o

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
Sure, he can. Because god doesn't exist. :o Sure he does. You've known him for 2 years in June. :o

[Spider-Nerd]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
Sure, he can. Because god doesn't exist. :o i'm on my cell with him right now.......



















































no? no one get it?

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
Sure he does. You've known him for 2 years in June. :o

meh. i have a bigger ego and positive self-image than yours. though if i were god allison wolfe who totally be my jesus.

[bluejake01]

I know god, she is one sexy lady.

[Honey Vibe]

Jonty30, this thread has degenerated into ad hominem remarks. You don't have to defend your religious beliefs in this circumstances, and I would suggest that you don't.

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
meh. i have a bigger ego and positive self-image than yours. though if i were god allison wolfe who totally be my jesus. Are we still splitting the world 50-50 when we take over? :p

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
Jonty30, this thread has degenerated into ad hominem remarks. You don't have to defend your religious beliefs in this circumstances, and I would suggest that you don't.

He does if he's using it as the foundation for his belief that queers can be cured and should not be granted the right to marry.

Get away, you. :p

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
1. ON HUMAN SACRIFICE
"... Thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God..." -- Leviticus 18:21

[In Judges, though, the tale of Jephthah, who led the Israelites against the Ammonoites, is being told. Being fearful of defeat, this good religious man sought to guarantee victory by getting god firmly on his side. So he prayed to god] "... If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering" (Judges 11:30-31).

[The terms were acceptable to god -- remember, he is supposed to be omniscient and know the future -- so he gave victory to Jephthah, and the first whatsoever that greeted him upon his glorious return was his daughter, as god surely knew would happen, if god is god. True to his vow, the general made a human sacrifice of his only child to god!] -- Judges 11:29-34




2. ON THE POWER OF GOD
"... with God all things are possible." -- Matthew 19:26

"...The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." -- Judges 1:19




3. ON DEALING WITH PERSONAL INJURY
"...thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. " -- Exodus 21:23-25

"...ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." -- Matthew 5:39




4. ON CIRCUMCISION
"This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." -- Genesis 17:10

"...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." -- Galatians 5:2




5. ON INCEST
"Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of this mother..." -- Deuteronomy 27:22

"And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter...it is a wicked thing...." -- Leviticus 20:17

[But what was god's reaction to Abraham, who married his sister -- his father's daughter?] See Genesis 20:11-12

"And God said unto Abraham, As for Sara thy wife...I bless her, and give thee a son also of her..." -- Genesis 17:15-16




6. ON TRUSTING GOD
"A good man obtaineth favour of the LORD..." -- Proverbs 12:2

Now consider the case of Job. After commissioning Satan to ruin Job financially and to slaughter his shepherds and children to win a petty bet with Satan. God asked Satan: "Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause." -- Job 2:3




7. ON THE HOLY LIFE-STYLE
"Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart..." -- Ecclesiastes 9:7

"...they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not..." -- 1 Corinthians 7:30




8. ON PUNISHING CRIME
"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." -- Ezekiel 18:20

"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." -- Exodus 20:5




9. ON TEMPTATION
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." -- James 1:13

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1




10. ON FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS
"Honor thy father and thy mother..."-- Exodus 20:12

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. " -- Luke 14:26




11. ON RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
"...he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. " -- Job 7:9

"...the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth...." -- John 5:28-29




12. ON THE END OF THE WORLD
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. " -- Matthew 16:28

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. " -- Luke 21:32-33

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light." -- Romans 13:11-12

"Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." -- James 5:8

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." -- 1 John 2:18

"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." -- 1 Peter 4:7

These words were written between 1800 and 1900 years ago and were meant to warn and prepare the first Christians for the immediate end of the world. Some words are those supposedly straight out of the mouth of the "Son of God." The world did not end 1800 or 1900 years ago. All that generation passed away without any of the things foretold coming to pass. No amount of prayer brought it about; nor ever so much patience and belief and sober living. The world went on, as usual, indifferent to the spoutings of yet another batch of doomsday prophets with visions of messiahs dancing in their deluded brains. The world, by surviving, makes the above passages contradictions.


want some more?

:thing: :doom: :thing:

1. Again, much of the Old Testament is like a camera, showing events that happened without commenting on whether they are good or bad. The Bible definitely condemns child sacrifice, but it wasn't saying that Jephthah's act was acceptable, but the fact that he kept his vow was acceptable to God.

2. I can see several possiblities. Among them that it wasn't God's will at that time to drive the inhabitants at the valley.

3. The Israelites were a desert people and the eye for an eye was meant to deliver justice without the blood code that was so common in the desert. With the blood code, even the slightest insult or injury often meant wiping out entire families or have generations of war. It was always God's purpose to take the Israelites where they were to where He wanted them to be. Considering that Jews are among the most peaceful on Earth as a people, I'd say it's been a success.

4. again, Paul was arguing against Jewish Christians who were trying to make Gentile Christians be like them. Circumcision is a sign between God and the Jewish people, but it meant nothing for people who were not Jewish.

5. Although I couldn't find the information, Sarah was actually either a step sister or half sister. a. the command to not marry a brother or sister didn't come until the Israelites were a people, which was long after Abraham. b. again the Old Testament often simply tells what happened, not give comment for good or bad about events.

6. Favour of the Lord doesn't necessarily mean wealth. Besides, God allowed Job to become quite rich after his tribulations.

7. Partial verses taken out of context doesn't mean anything.

8. No contradiction. Ezekiel is saying that the sons cannot be considered guilty for the sins of the father. In Exodus, it's a warning that our actions could have multi-generational consequences.

9. No contradiction. One verse says that God cannot be tempted, the other says that God did not tempt man.

10. The new Testament reference is actually a bad translation. The original Greek actually means "loves less" which many translations use instead.

11. What contradiction? One verse refers to natural death and the other to the resurrection of the saved.

12. The first two verses came immediately before Christ was transfigured in all his glory. The second two verses, in context of eternity, is not much time even if another thousand years pass. The next verse, you missed "the" in front of the main antichrist. AntiChrist has two meanings - instead of and against. During the New Testament times, after Christ had been taken to heaven, many people claimed to be the Messiah returned. However there is a time coming when the main Antichrist shall reveal himself.


One can take verses out of context post half verses, it doesn't prove his point. The only way to really understand the Bible is to study the Bible, taking things within context.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
I'm not taking sides, just reading along. But that's not a fair comparisson. A lot changed between the Old and New Testament. God actually changed some things (like in the Old Testament, only the Jews are the chosen people, but in the New Testament, we all are, etc.). It's a bad comparisson, that's all.

Also when one understands what is meant, it's not a contradiction.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
jonty30, spokesman for god, ladies and gentlemen. We should feel honored to have such an esteemed collegue of the almighty in our company.

it's easier for you to admit you don't know, instead of talking out of yr cleaner mouth.

I'm just answering your questions based on what I understand. As I read the Bible, we will be judged based on what we understood. Christ's death was unconditional gift to mankind, even though that one has the right to refuse the gift.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
I and the Father are one. I AM the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by Me.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

Uhhh, yes. What's your point?

All that's saying is that salvation is through Christ. Since Christ's death is an unconditional gift to mankind, it means that all who wish to be saved can be saved.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Aunt Petunia
How is it that an atheist knows more about your religion than you do? You really should read the dogma you espouse.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

I think I know my Bible fairly well. thanks for asking.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
God can do anything - Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37
God is limited in what he can do - Judges 1:19, Mark 6:5-6




God wants everyone to be saved - 1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:9
God does not want everyone to be saved - Prov 16:4, Mark 4:11-12, Rom 9:18, 2 Thess 2:11




The returnees from Babylonian exile in 537/536 BCE.
42,360 in Ezra 2:64, but 9,818 in Ezra 2:3-60 and 31,089 in Nehemiah 7:7-65.




God is not angry for long - Psa 30:5, 103:9, Micah 7:18
God is angry for a long time - Num 32:13, Rev 14:11, 20:10




God never lies and hates lying - Ex 23:1, Num 23:19, Prov 12:22, Titus 1:2
God himself lies - 1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chron 18:22, 2 Thess 2:11




God does not repent (ie. regret an action/change his mind) - Num 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29, Mal 3:6
God does repent (ie. regret an action/change his mind) - Gen 6:6-7, Ex 32:14, 1 Sam 15:35, 2 Sam 24:16, 1 Chron 21:15, Jer 18:8,10, 26:3,13,19, 42:10, Ezek 24:14, Joel 2:13, Amos 7:3, Jonah 3:10




The earth has no foundation - Job 26:7
The earth does have foundations - 1 Sam 2:8, Psa 104:5




God feeds and cares for all life - Psa 145:15-16
God does not feed and care for all life - Deut 28:48, Isa 5:13, 8:21, 50:2




God is warlike - Ex 15:3, Psa 24:8, Rev 19:11,13
Man should be peaceful as God is - Matt 5:9, John 14:27, Rom 15:33, 2 Thess 3:16




Graven images not to be made - Ex 20:4
Graven images are to be made - Ex 25:18




The earth is God/Jesus' - Psa 24:1, 1 Cor 10:26, Rev 1:5
The earth is the devil's - John 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4




God dwells in light - Psa 104:1,2, 1 Tim 6:15-16, 1 John 1:5
God dwells in darkness - 1 Kings 8:12, 2 Chron 6:1, Psa 18:11, Psa 97:1-2




Jesus is God - John 1:1, John 20:288
Jesus is inferior/subordinate to God - John 14:28, 1 Cor 11:3, 15:28

Although I don't have time anymore to dealing with these, since I work nights. Suffice to say that one can make the Bible say just about anything when you pick and choose verses out of context or in partial. Doesn't mean there are any actual contradictions.

[The Prisoner]

Originally posted by jonty30
The fact that there have been thousands of homosexuals who've made a successful transition proves that statement that there's no cure to be a lie. However, not much research is being done to find the most effective and least painful treatment because it's too controversial. There is no cure for something that isn't a disease.:)

[War Lord]

Originally posted by guy-spidey
I just got back and there above me I see a plethora of contradictions.

By saying that choosing to be saved by believing in what you believe in, would indicate that if I chose not to believe I will not be saved.

Our way or the highway.

Therefore, elitest.

Fine, than everybody who would chose to be saved can join the elite club. Not exactly elitest, since everybody could join if they wanted to.

My definition of an elitest club is one where not everybody can join, even if they wanted to. To each his own however.

[The Prisoner]

I also still stand by the "I wasn't aware that The United States had an official religion"

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath


1. No, someone asked you if there was a place where a heterosexual wanted to be cured of his heterosexuality, you said prison. That's idiotic. And now you've changed yr argument again.



2. You're not following the word of god. The bible says a man who thinks of another woman other than his wife has already sinned in his heart. A sin is a sin or are you making up new rules for what makes really big sins and not so damaging ones? And by saying "All sins are forfiveable at any rate" then why the chip on yr shoulder? If god forgives everything why wouldn't he forgive homosexuals? I'll tell you why, because it deflates yr argument to nothing yet AGAIN.

You've spoken for god, made up rules for him and regarded sins as "little ones" and "big ones" but it doesn't matter since they're all forgiven. You're dead, again. [/B]

1, As I understood the question, it asked if a person could choose to become homosexual if they were hetero. That's the question I answered. Many Christian ministries can help those who want to change from homo to hetero.

2. Sin is is and it's all forgiveable upon repentence.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by bluejake01
I whole heartedly agree. It's great literature, and has some incredible things to say about human nature and spirituality. I respect all religions, but get rather fed up witgh people that use the name of God and Jesus to deny groups of people the same freedom to live how they will and believe what they will that they themselves take advantage of.

I respect all religions and believe very much in religious freedom. Doesn't mean all are equal though.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
Perhaps to you, however there's several other religions and followers who follow their own paths, that may or may not directly go against the rules of yr religion and feel just as confident about their faith as you do of yours.

But if you give me a few moments, Mr. Press Secretary, I would really like to know what's in the mind of god. You being his spokesperson and all, I think I and billions of others would benefit from knowing just what the ole boy is thinking. Something along the lines of, oh, i dont know. ..disease, famine, war, rape, murder, price of gasoline. . you know, for starters.

If you want to know what He's thinking, just read His word.:)

[E. Bison]

Originally posted by USMC
So, basically, you stay away from gays because you have been tempted to have sex with men? You've been attracted to men and decided to change that for God?
http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Bane_Lily/dialog-vega1.gif I stay away from gay people not because of the stereotype that gays will lure you into homosexual sex, but because they may try to influence me to accept their lifestyles and justify them as well. I have met ex-gays and they now live happy normal lives now. Sure once in a while some of them stumble and desire the same sex, but it's something that they must fight if they mean to either satisfy God or just live a clean lifestyle. Like I said earlier, you shouldn't change because society, family, and mankind says so. You should only do it for your own benefit or to satisfy God. No other reason. If you don't believe in God than you have no reason to change for homosexuality is not illegal.

http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Bane_Lily/Vega_9.gif I am not homosexual, but if I chose to I could embrace the gay lifestyle or bisexual lifestyle if I chose too. I don't have to be inclined to it already, any heterosexual can become homosexual, bisexual, pedophile, and learn to embrace it if they don't like it first. Anyone can expirament back and forth and change their sexual inclination just the same as you can teach yourself to like food or music you never liked before. You can also teach yourself to hate something you've liked before as well. Although there is no genetic evidence of homosexuality, even if there was, genes only define a "function" but do not control a person what so ever. It's still up to you to decide whether you'll abide by that genes function or not.

[The Prisoner]

Originally posted by jonty30
If you want to know what He's thinking, just read His word.:) Yes, because I'm sure that The price of Gas is in the bible somewhere.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Honey Vibe
Jonty30, this thread has degenerated into ad hominem remarks. You don't have to defend your religious beliefs in this circumstances, and I would suggest that you don't.

Although, I'd rather discuss this matter in a civil matter. I've often found that those who make fun of religion are often very curious about it nevertheless. I think that most of the people here, if they knew the truth about scripture would respond and that's always my prayer for them that they give the Bible half a chance.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
He does if he's using it as the foundation for his belief that queers can be cured and should not be granted the right to marry.

Get away, you. :p

I'm not forcing anybody to agree with me, but I'm simpy stating my beliefs, which includes freedom from all manner of sin.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by The Prisoner
There is no cure for something that isn't a disease.:)

I don't believe that people who want to be free from homosexuality cannot be treated. To say those makes a lie about those who changed.

[Evolution]

Originally posted by E. Bison
http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Bane_Lily/dialog-vega1.gif I stay away from gay people not because of the stereotype that gays will lure you into homosexual sex, but because they may try to influence me to accept their lifestyles and justify them as well. I have met ex-gays and they now live happy normal lives now. Sure once in a while some of them stumble and desire the same sex, but it's something that they must fight if they mean to either satisfy God or just live a clean lifestyle. Like I said earlier, you shouldn't change because society, family, and mankind says so. You should only do it for your own benefit or to satisfy God. No other reason. If you don't believe in God than you have no reason to change for homosexuality is not illegal.

http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Bane_Lily/Vega_9.gif I am not homosexual, but if I chose to I could embrace the gay lifestyle or bisexual lifestyle if I chose too. I don't have to be inclined to it already, any heterosexual can become homosexual, bisexual, pedophile, and learn to embrace it if they don't like it first. Anyone can expirament back and forth and change their sexual inclination just the same as you can teach yourself to like food or music you never liked before. You can also teach yourself to hate something you've liked before as well. Although there is no genetic evidence of homosexuality, even if there was, genes only define a "function" but do not control a person what so ever. It's still up to you to decide whether you'll abide by that genes function or not.

I want to shoot you through your forehead and skull-**** your lifeless bigoted body.

:)

[War Lord]

Originally posted by The Prisoner
Yes, because I'm sure that The price of Gas is in the bible somewhere.

If it's not there, he probably wasn't thinking it was important.

[Evolution]

Originally posted by jonty30
I don't believe that people who want to be free from homosexuality cannot be treated. To say those makes a lie about those who changed.

How do YOU know how these people feel? How do YOU know what their motivations are?

Nobody but them can know why they did what they did.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Evolution
I want to shoot you through your forehead and skull-**** your lifeless bigoted body.

:)

That's quite the hostile smile.:)

[Tukiluka]

I don't know Karate...but I know ka-razy! I'm mad! I want revenge! :mad:

[Evolution]

Originally posted by jonty30
That's quite the hostile smile.:)

Well, I try to be pleasant when I can.

:up:

[Evolution]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
I don't know Karate...but I know ka-razy! I'm mad! I want revenge! :mad:

You're dumb.

:)

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Evolution
How do YOU know how these people feel? How do YOU know what their motivations are?

Nobody but them can know why they did what they did.

Change is change, regardless of the why or how. I'm simply saying that homosexuals can change, even if it's difficult to do so, doesn't matter the motivation.

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by Evolution
You're dumb.

:) You have no idea what I'm talking about...Warhol. ;)

[The Prisoner]

Originally posted by jonty30
If it's not there, he probably wasn't thinking it was important. I guess the fact that Dinosaurs existed and the earth is older than 10,000 years wasn't too important either.

[akut401]

man, this changed into a bible thread fast....

[Evolution]

Originally posted by jonty30
Change is change, regardless of the why or how. I'm simply saying that homosexuals can change, even if it's difficult to do so, doesn't matter the motivation.

I see. So you're saying that a gay person can get to a certain point in their life when they choose to have only heterosexual sex, while on the inside they desire the gay lifestyle but feel pressured, even threatened, to live contrary to their own true feelings of how they should live their lives. . .and this means they're not gay anymore?

How about people who go to church every Sunday, say the words that get them "saved" and can recite the Bible backwards and forwards. . .yet deep within their hearts they have not truly accepted Jesus Christ and believe Christianity is bogus. On the outside they're true Christians.

On the outside, jonty, you see deception and you THINK it's true.

Unless, of course, you still believe change is change, and thus the gay person who only has heterosexual sex is no longer gay and the false Christian is no longer damned.

How do you KNOW the truth, jonty?

:)

[Evolution]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
You have no idea what I'm talking about...Warhol. ;)

Hey, William, I don't particularly care to what you are referring in your previous post. I just wanted to tell you that you're dumb.

Logic, Will. Learn to use it.

:)

[E. Bison]

Originally posted by Evolution
I want to shoot you through your forehead and skull-**** your lifeless bigoted body.

:)
http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Bane_Lily/dialog-vega4.gif This is why I never revealed before who I used to be because people would take my post out of context and turn it on me and make me look as if I was a bigot. I nevers said I hate homosexuals. It would make me a hypocrite to hate homosexuals because God doesn't hate them, he only hates what they do.

http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Bane_Lily/th_bison-snk00.gif If you want to know where I stand with the whole Gay Marriage Issue I will tell you. You see, I am neither for nor against it in any way, shape, or form. I am completely nuetral when it comes to political matters of anykind. I really don't care whether it's legalized or not because I do not believe in human government.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by The Prisoner
I guess the fact that Dinosaurs existed and the earth is older than 10,000 years wasn't too important either.

Not from a salvation standpoint, no.

Not all creationists believe that Earth is only 10 thous or so. Life on it may or may not be, but Earth could have been floating around for aeons before God decided to use it. Let's get back to topic.

[The Lizard]

The subject has departed somewhat into the realm of apparent Biblical contradictions. To be fair, there are MANY apologist sites and publications that deal with and answer the apparent contradictions that occur in the Bible. Some can be found here:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm

Lots of links here:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/contralinks.html


Since the actual topic that is being discussed here (Gay Marriage) is now a legal matter, not a faith-based one ----Back on topic!

[Evolution]

Originally posted by E. Bison
http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Bane_Lily/dialog-vega4.gif This is why I never revealed before who I used to be because people would take my post out of context and turn it on me and make me look as if I was a bigot. I nevers said I hate homosexuals. It would make me a hypocrite to hate homosexuals because God doesn't hate them, he only hates what they do.

So God hates?

:confused:

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by Evolution
Hey, William, I don't particularly care to what you are referring in your previous post. I just wanted to tell you that you're dumb.

Logic, Will. Learn to use it.

:) A brain Ruben, learn to use it for things other than shouting down religious children on a comic book board. Don't get me started on you...you'll lose...and I have not the time nor the desire to see you broken hearted again.

;)

[The Prisoner]

Originally posted by The Lizard
The subject has departed somewhat into the realm of apparent Biblical contradictions. To be fair, there are MANY apologist sites and publications that deal with and answer the apparent contradictions that occur in the Bible. Some can be found here:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm

Lots of links here:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/contralinks.html


Since the actual topic that is being discussed here (Gay Marriage) is now a legal matter, not a faith-based one ----Back on topic! Yes, but the only reason it is being discussed in lay is because of bible thumpers.

[GunBlade]

THIS is awesome.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Evolution
I see. So you're saying that a gay person can get to a certain point in their life when they choose to have only heterosexual sex, while on the inside they desire the gay lifestyle but feel pressured, even threatened, to live contrary to their own true feelings of how they should live their lives. . .and this means they're not gay anymore?

How about people who go to church every Sunday, say the words that get them "saved" and can recite the Bible backwards and forwards. . .yet deep within their hearts they have not truly accepted Jesus Christ and believe Christianity is bogus. On the outside they're true Christians.

On the outside, jonty, you see deception and you THINK it's true.

Unless, of course, you still believe change is change, and thus the gay person who only has heterosexual sex is no longer gay and the false Christian is no longer damned.

How do you KNOW the truth, jonty?

:)

A gay person can come to the point where he doesn't want to live that lifestyle anymore, yes. I'm sure there is a continuum of response to treatment, from utter failure to complete success. Steve Bennet is an example of a complete success. Not all want to change because of outside pressure, many sincerely want to change because they don't want to do it anymore.

Salvation comes through Christ, not anythiing we do. That's a misunderstood point about Christianity. Many people believe that if somebody is good enough, they're saved, but that's not what the Bible teaches.

I know a few pastors who live as you describe, but since the Christian life is a progressive one, I can't make any judgements about what happens to people who don't follow Christ but claim to be Christian.

We're all tempted to sin, all kinds of sin. Homosexual sin is not any different than any other sin. Yes, people fall, all the time. Several times a day sometimes. However, God has promised forgiveness for every sin that we commit. I can't emphasize that enough.

[Evolution]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
A brain Ruben, learn to use it for things other than shouting down religious children on a comic book board. Don't get me started on you...you'll lose...and I have not the time nor the desire to see you broken hearted again.

;)

Yes, William, I fear you "breaking me in half."

Lose? Lose how? You think USMC was able to get me to give half a **** about what he was saying during that three month long ****fest we had a while back?

Lose? How would you quantify my "losing" anything? How would you judge it?

Please. . .I'll toss back some shots with you, yeah, but you won't "beat" me at ANYTHING.

;)

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Evolution
So God hates?

:confused:

God hates sin, but not the sinner. I know how tripe that sounds, but it's true.

[E. Bison]

Originally posted by Evolution
So God hates?

:confused:

http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Bane_Lily/dialog-vega3.gif If he didn't would he have destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Would he have flooded the world and destroyed those unnatural abominations known as Nephlim? Yes, God can hate judging that we are created in his image of course. But his primary characteristic is love. For if it wasn't for his love we wouldn't have even existed right now to begin with. He could have easily destroyed Adam and Eve after they sinned and created new humans, but because he still loved them, even after what they did, he let them live and reproduce imperfect humans. He also sent is only begotten son to die for us.

[Evolution]

Originally posted by jonty30
I can't make any judgements about what happens to people who don't follow Christ but claim to be Christian.

So by that rationale, how can you justify yourself judging people who have heterosexual sex, but inside scream to be gay?

[Evolution]

Originally posted by E. Bison
http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Bane_Lily/dialog-vega3.gif If he didn't would he have destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Would he have flooded the world and destroyed those unnatural abominations known as Nephlim? Yes, God can hate judging that we are created in his image of course. But his primary characteristic is love. For if it wasn't for his love we wouldn't have even existed right now to begin with. He could have easily destroyed Adam and Eve after they sinned and created new humans, but because he still loved them, even after what they did, he let them live and reproduce imperfect humans. He also sent is only begotten son to die for us.

. . .but I don't believe in the Bible.

Can you convince me otherwise?

[Evolution]

Originally posted by jonty30
God hates sin, but not the sinner. I know how tripe that sounds, but it's true.

So you're saying an ever-loving, ever-benevolent, infinitely compassionate God is capable of hate?

How strange...

[Mr.Furious]

Originally posted by Evolution
. . .but I don't believe in the Bible.

Can you convince me otherwise?

the bible sucks.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Evolution
So by that rationale, how can you justify yourself judging people who have heterosexual sex, but inside scream to be gay?

I'm not judging anybody, just behaviour. The Bible is clear that unrepented sin cannot be forgiven, but all repented sin can be forgiven.

I gotta go soon, because I gotta sleep.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Evolution
So you're saying an ever-loving, ever-benevolent, infinitely compassionate God is capable of hate?

How strange...

Just like an earthly loving father. He might hate the fact that his son does drugs and is a criminal, but would still give his son a kidney if required.

[akut401]

Originally posted by Evolution
So you're saying an ever-loving, ever-benevolent, infinitely compassionate God is capable of hate?

How strange...

God can dislike the thing being done, but forgive the person that does them.....

[Evolution]

Originally posted by jonty30
Just like an earthly loving father. He might hate the fact that his son does drugs and is a criminal, but would still give his son a kidney if required.

Where did you come to the conclusion that God hates?

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by Evolution
Yes, William, I fear you "breaking me in half."

Lose? Lose how? You think USMC was able to get me to give half a **** about what he was saying during that three month long ****fest we had a while back?

Lose? How would you quantify my "losing" anything? How would you judge it?

Please. . .I'll toss back some shots with you, yeah, but you won't "beat" me at ANYTHING.

;) Not even Monopoly, m0d?

And your failure to put USMC away was tragic. :( I think that's when I saw that you had lost something. It was just whining back and forth. I still love you, but you know you sucked on that.

And why does it delight you to bust the balls of people YOU KNOW you are probably more intelligent than (because of age, education, life experience, etc). Does it make you feel superior?

I dunno, I guess yer bored or something, and trashing people is how you get off. Oh well.

[E. Bison]

Originally posted by Evolution
. . .but I don't believe in the Bible.

Can you convince me otherwise?
http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Bane_Lily/dialog-vega1.gif If you don't believe in the bible, why would you care about the qualities of God? His qualities are clearly listed in detail in the bible. Like I said earlier, If you don't believe in God, you don't have any reason to change because this system of things as we know it doesn't condemn homosexuality. If you don't believe homosexuality is wrong and corrupt then you have no reason to change neither.

[Evolution]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
Not even Monopoly, m0d?

And your failure to put USMC away was tragic. :( I think that's when I saw that you had lost something. It was just whining back and forth. I still love you, but you know you sucked on that.

And why does it delight you to bust the balls of people YOU KNOW you are probably more intelligent than (because of age, education, life experience, etc). Does it make you feel superior?

I dunno, I guess yer bored or something, and trashing people is how you get off. Oh well.

How touching.

[Superman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Let's try to get back to the original subject of this thread, Can we?

In so trying to get us back I'm going to post the latest news on this subject.



Congress Not Rushing Gay Marriage Ban
Wed Feb 25, 7:32 AM ET


By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - President Bush (news - web sites) wants quick election-year enactment of a constitutional amendment prohibiting gays from marrying each other, but Republicans in Congress are not rushing to heed his call.


After Bush's announcement Tuesday, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said it would take time to gauge the level of support in Congress for a constitutional amendment. He suggested the difficulty of passing one may cause lawmakers to take a different approach to preserving marriage as a solely man-woman union.


"We don't want to do this in haste," DeLay said.


The front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites) of Massachusetts, and his leading rival, Sen. John Edwards (news - web sites) of North Carolina, struggled to make their opposition to Bush's stance clear as they carefully tiptoed around politically sensitive turf.


Kerry said he supports civil unions, "and I think that that is permissible within state law and it ought to be."


"If he really wants to help married couples, what he should be doing is helping them resolve their economic problems, their health care problems," Edwards said while campaigning in Georgia.


Meeting long-held expectations of his most conservative supporters, Bush argued that same-sex weddings threaten the institution of marriage — and thus society — and that actions by several local jurisdictions allowing gay marriage make federal intervention the only recourse.


"If we are to prevent the meaning of marriage from being changed forever, our nation must enact a constitutional amendment to protect marriage in America," the president said. "Marriage cannot be severed from its cultural, religious and natural roots without weakening the good influence of society."


Bush called on Congress "to promptly pass and to send to the states for ratification" an amendment to define marriage as a union of a man and a woman. He had opposed legalizing civil unions as governor of Texas, but Bush left the door open for states to do so now — an alternative gay rights groups find insufficient.


Bush's conservative supporters who view prohibiting gay marriage as a priority were thrilled.


"We are delighted the president has stepped forward on this issue and his announcement serves as a critical catalyst to energize and organize those who will work diligently to ensure that marriage remains an institution between one man and one woman," said Jay Sekulow, chief counsel of the American Center for Law and Justice, a law firm founded by the Rev. Pat Robertson.


A majority of Americans — sometimes by as much as a 2-1 margin — oppose legalizing gay marriages. Still, Bush's move could hold political risks, especially if voters see him as intolerant or question his self-description as a "compassionate conservative."


Democrats promised to fight the amendment and criticized Bush for wanting to use the Constitution to take away rights. They said he is trying change the subject from questions on his leadership, the economy, his Vietnam-era military service and the failure to find the weapons of mass destruction he had alleged were in Iraq (news - web sites).


"President Bush is tinkering with America's most sacred document in a shameful attempt to turn our attention away from his record as president," said Democratic National Committee (news - web sites) Chairman Terry McAuliffe.


Several GOP lawmakers said they would prefer to see Congress take a different route rather than amend the Constitution.


Rep. David Dreier, R-Calif., a co-chairman of Bush's campaign in California in 2000, said he doesn't support a constitutional amendment. "I believe that this should go through the courts, and I think that we're at a point where it's not necessary," he said.


Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said the matter should be left to the states, and Rep. Jerry Lewis, R-Calif., said changing the Constitution should be a last resort on almost any issue.





With some conservatives wanting a broader approach than Bush supports, and others opposing federalizing the issue, DeLay said it's "going to take some time" to unify those groups and examine other options.

"Constitutional amendment — I believe that is the ultimate remedy left for the Congress," he said. "We are looking at other ways of doing it."

The Log Cabin Republicans (news - web sites), a gay GOP group, worried that Bush risks alienating the 1 million gays and lesbians who voted for him in 2000 by pushing for the constitutional amendment.

"We believe that this is a move to start a culture war, fueled and pushed by the radical right, that will end up in George Bush's defeat, and defeat for a lot of good Republicans who are with us on equality," Mark Mead, the group's political director, said in an interview with AP Radio.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040225/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_gay_marriage_5


Now go forth and descuss.:)

[Tukiluka]

Originally posted by Evolution
How touching. How macho.

[The Prisoner]

"We don't want to do this in haste," DeLay said.
That's cute...:)

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Evolution
Where did you come to the conclusion that God hates?

Let's be clear, it's not the person God hates under any circumstances. It simply means that sin cannot exist in the presence of God.

[Evolution]

Originally posted by jonty30
Let's be clear, it's not the person God hates under any circumstances. It simply means that sin cannot exist in the presence of God.

So are you saying God doesn't hate then?

[Evolution]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
How macho.

:rolleyes:

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Evolution
So are you saying God doesn't hate then?

Not people that is.

[Bud Dwyer]

Originally posted by Mind(less)worm
Well It's about time ! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,112314,00.html
*cocks shotgun* Why don't you run that by me one more time? *aims shotgun at Mindworm's extremist and ugly face*

[Bud Dwyer]

Originally posted by Tukiluka
How macho.
True.

[USMC]

Originally posted by Evolution

Lose? Lose how? You think USMC was able to get me to give half a **** about what he was saying during that three month long ****fest we had a while back? ;)

I wasn't really trying. :p

























:(

[USMC]

GOP isn’t united behind ban on gay marriage

Congressional leaders cautious on Bush's call for amendment.

MSNBC staff and news service reports
Updated: 7:17 p.m. ET Feb. 25, 2004WASHINGTON - President Bush wants quick election-year enactment of a constitutional amendment prohibiting gays from marrying each other, but Republicans in Congress are not rushing to heed his call.

After Bush’s announcement Tuesday, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said it would take time to gauge the level of support in Congress for a constitutional amendment. He suggested the difficulty of passing one may cause lawmakers to take a different approach to preserving marriage as a solely man-woman union.

“We don’t want to do this in haste,” DeLay said.

The front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts, and his leading rival, Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina, struggled to make their opposition to Bush’s stance clear as they carefully tiptoed around politically sensitive turf.

Democratic candidates register opposition
Kerry maintained his recent daily criticism of Bush on Wednesday, contending in television interviews that his backing of a constitutional amendment forbidding same-sex marriages was a “wedge issue” intended to distract people.

“I think he’s a president in trouble and he’s just looking for a political change of subject,” Kerry told “Good Morning America” on ABC. “He doesn’t want to talk about the real issues in front of the nation.”

Kerry has said he opposes gay marriage while supporting civil unions, but believes the matter is an issue that should be left to the states.

“If he really wants to help married couples, what he should be doing is helping them resolve their economic problems, their health care problems,” Edwards said while campaigning in Georgia.

Meeting long-held expectations of his most conservative supporters, Bush argued that same-sex weddings threaten the institution of marriage — and thus society — and that actions by several local jurisdictions allowing gay marriage make federal intervention the only recourse.

“If we are to prevent the meaning of marriage from being changed forever, our nation must enact a constitutional amendment to protect marriage in America,” the president said. “Marriage cannot be severed from its cultural, religious and natural roots without weakening the good influence of society.”

Bush called on Congress “to promptly pass and to send to the states for ratification” an amendment to define marriage as a union of a man and a woman. He had opposed legalizing civil unions as governor of Texas, but Bush left the door open for states to do so now — an alternative gay rights groups consider insufficient.

Bush’s conservative supporters who view prohibiting gay marriage as a priority were thrilled.

“We are delighted the president has stepped forward on this issue and his announcement serves as a critical catalyst to energize and organize those who will work diligently to ensure that marriage remains an institution between one man and one woman,” said Jay Sekulow, chief counsel of the American Center for Law and Justice, a law firm founded by the Rev. Pat Robertson.

Majority opposed to gay marriage
A majority of Americans — sometimes by as much as a 2-1 margin — oppose legalizing gay marriages. Still, Bush’s move could hold political risks, especially if voters see him as intolerant or question his self-description as a “compassionate conservative.”

Democrats promised to fight the amendment and criticized Bush for wanting to use the Constitution to take away rights. They said he is trying change the subject from questions on his leadership, the economy, his Vietnam-era military service and the failure to find the weapons of mass destruction he had alleged were in Iraq.

“President Bush is tinkering with America’s most sacred document in a shameful attempt to turn our attention away from his record as president,” said Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe.

Several GOP lawmakers said they would prefer to see Congress take a route other than amending the Constitution.

Rep. David Dreier, R-Calif., a co-chairman of Bush’s campaign in California in 2000, said he doesn’t support a constitutional amendment. “I believe that this should go through the courts, and I think that we’re at a point where it’s not necessary,” he said.

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said the matter should be left to the states, and Rep. Jerry Lewis, R-Calif., said changing the Constitution should be a last resort on almost any issue.

DeLay says time needed to unify conservatives
With some conservatives wanting a broader approach than Bush supports, and others opposing federalizing the issue, DeLay said it’s “going to take some time” to unify those groups and examine other options.

“Constitutional amendment — I believe that is the ultimate remedy left for the Congress,” he said. “We are looking at other ways of doing it.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4360783/

[Spider-Nerd]

Originally posted by jonty30
However, God has promised forgiveness for every sin that we commit. I can't emphasize that enough. Then why do people get sent to hell?:confused:

[Spider-Nerd]

Originally posted by jonty30
Suffice to say that one can make the Bible say just about anything when you pick and choose verses out of context or in partial. Which is exactly what has happened in the past and is happening now.

[Ol' Horn-Head]

Congratulations America, the civilised world is now ashamed of you.

[Emilio's Mom]

Originally posted by Ol' Horn-Head
Congratulations America, the civilised world is now ashamed of you. When were they not?:confused: More importantly...when did we care?:confused:

[Spider-Nerd]

Originally posted by Emilio's Mom
When were they not?:confused: More importantly...when did we care?:confused: don't use the word we to represent all americans, use I to represent yourself.

[Alf]

Originally posted by Spider-Nerd
don't use the word we to represent all americans, use I. you want her to use ''I'' to represent all Americans?:confused: that makes no sense at all:o

[Emilio's Mom]

Originally posted by Spider-Nerd
don't use the word we to represent all americans, use I to represent yourself. we we ****ing we :rolleyes:

It's obvious that WE don't, or WE would've changed a long time ago, deal with it. The majority of America doesn't support gay marriage but the number goes down a little when it comes to an Amendment banning it....curious indeed.

[Emilio's Mom]

Originally posted by Alf
you want her to use ''I'' to represent all Americans?:confused: that makes no sense at all:o I made a mistake then and ofcourse by "I", I mean "we".:o

[frank rook]

Yeah so what happens if a american gay couple comes to canada and gets married? Are they not welcome back? Man your pres is a goon......

[Emilio's Mom]

Originally posted by frank rook
Yeah so what happens if a american gay couple comes to canada and gets married? Are they not welcome back? Man your pres is a goon...... To my understanding, they just don't recognize the marriage as legally binding.


No, actually, you're right, they beat them and then use tasers on them. Ya see, we put little tracking devices on all gay people and when they go somewhere and get married then try to return, they get an electric shock.

[Ol' Horn-Head]

I think denying the right to prove your love to someone, no matter their gender is
one of the most degrading things i've ever heard.

[Carcharodon]

Originally posted by Ol' Horn-Head
I think denying the right to prove your love to someone, no matter their gender is
one of the most degrading things i've ever heard. Well, I agree to an extent. Do you really need marriage to prove your love to someone?

Admittedly, that is beside the point. Still...

[frank rook]

I support the gay registration act, so register your gays so they cant get married in Canada!

[Ol' Horn-Head]

Originally posted by Wall_Crawler_2003
Well, I agree to an extent. Do you really need marriage to prove your love to someone?

Admittedly, that is beside the point. Still...

Well, I don't really believe in marriage, but if other see it as a way to prove their love, then they should be given that basic right.

[Spider-Nerd]

Originally posted by Alf
you want her to use ''I'' to represent all Americans?:confused: that makes no sense at all:o yeah, i saw what i wrote and added to it. My bad.:)

[USMC]

Originally posted by Emilio's Mom
we we ****ing we :rolleyes:

It's obvious that WE don't, or WE would've changed a long time ago, deal with it. The majority of America doesn't support gay marriage but the number goes down a little when it comes to an Amendment banning it....curious indeed.

You know what's cool...

The slim majority doesn't support gay marriage. But out of 18-24 year olds polled, 75% DO.


See, everyone? Evolution DOES exist... and soon the minority will become the majority. :)

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by USMC
You know what's cool...

The slim majority doesn't support gay marriage. But out of 18-24 year olds polled, 75% DO.


See, everyone? Evolution DOES exist... and soon the minority will become the majority. :) Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains. - Winston Churchill

[USMC]

Read a book to find out what happened to Churchill after WWII. :)

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by USMC
Read a book to find out what happened to Churchill after WWII. :) i just always thought that was a funny quote.

[E. Bison]

Originally posted by USMC
You know what's cool...

The slim majority doesn't support gay marriage. But out of 18-24 year olds polled, 75% DO.


See, everyone? Evolution DOES exist... and soon the minority will become the majority. :)
http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Bane_Lily/Bison_Butterfly.gifKeep dreaming butterfly boy!

[USMC]

I like the one in my sig better. :)

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by USMC
I like the one in my sig better. :) what happened to the one with our famous humanist founding father? ps(That bush one is funny)

[Emilio's Mom]

Originally posted by USMC
You know what's cool...

The slim majority doesn't support gay marriage. But out of 18-24 year olds polled, 75% DO.


See, everyone? Evolution DOES exist... and soon the minority will become the majority. :) People change as they get older, you know this.

[USMC]

I like to change 'em every now and then... but I really like the Dr. Seuss one.

[USMC]

Originally posted by Emilio's Mom
People change as they get older, you know this.

Not all of them. Our history has shown us that people only get smarter and more tolerant.

[Emilio's Mom]

Originally posted by USMC
Not all of them. Our history has shown us that people only get smarter and more tolerant. Believe what you need to to get by.

[USMC]

I do.

[USMC]

And so do you, it seems. :)

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by Emilio's Mom
Believe what you need to to get by.

No witty or otherwise playful rebuttle. .. mombies must be in one of her moods. Emilio's going to be getting an earful tomorrow.

[Emilio's Mom]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
No witty or otherwise playful rebuttle. .. mombies must be in one of her moods. Emilio's going to be getting an earful tomorrow. Too tired to be witty.

[sylvia plath]

Originally posted by Emilio's Mom
Too tired to be witty.

You should be. It's the middle of the night over there in, uh, Fresno. :o

[USMC]

lol. :D

[Alf]

it's 4 am over here in...uh...florida

[Emilio's Mom]

Originally posted by sylvia plath
You should be. It's the middle of the night over there in, uh, Fresno. :o it's the middle of the night in lots of places :) not tired tonight, tired in general. I'll be going south about 2500 miles today, shouldn't take long. :)

[Man-Thing]

Originally posted by Alf
it's 4 am over here in...uh...florida HA!:mad: