best rendition of the symbiote sage

[spider-neil]

opinions please

[spida-man]

opinions please
this is a tough choice. i know people are gonna say TAS because it was the one that inspired the movie and SSM but. I tend to be the rebel when ppl feel that the orgina; is always better(which is sooo not freakin' true). i have never read the original story however i do know how it hapened. I can't really vote on which one i like the best but i'd have to say for me it would be between SM3, SSM and TAS.
It's such a difficult choice. I love all three of those versions.

[November Rain]

you forgot ultimate in your poll....

and it's probably not best to have people vote before nature vs nuture plays out.

[spider-neil]

you forgot ultimate in your poll....

and it's probably not best to have people vote before nature vs nuture plays out.


there's the 'comics' option :cwink:

[November Rain]

you know you messed up, take it like a man.

[spider-neil]

you know you messed up, take it like a man.

:oldrazz:

[MattXG]

The Animated Series was the best. Its why Spectacular Spider-Man copied it.

The Animated Series made the whole thing seem more "epic" to me. Especially when Brock became Venom. The whole dream sequence where Spider-Man and the Symbiote are fighting over Peter Parker was also much better in TAS...

[MattXG]

I think some of you may need to be reminded of just how epic the 90's Animated Series Venom saga was...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t_xd3HF8ys

Wow... BLOWS Spectacular out of the water really. Though I think Spectacular blows TAS out of the water when it comes to out of costume character intereaction....

[Anwar]

The Animated Series was the best. Its why Spectacular Spider-Man copied it.

However, the Animated Series made the whole thing seem more "epic" to me. Especially when Brock became Venom. The whole dream sequence where Spider-Man and the Symbiote are fighting over Peter Parker was also much better in TAS...

Might as well point out that TAS just copied the dream battle where his costumes fight each other from the comics...

[MattXG]

Might as well point out that TAS just copied the dream battle where his costumes fight each other from the comics...
What's your point though?

Both TAS and Spectacular had a "Spider-Man vs. Symbiote" dream sequence battle. TAS was just the better take I feel.

[Sarcastic Fan]

The Animated Series was the best. Its why Spectacular Spider-Man copied it.

Kinda hard to copy it when the guy writing the series never watched it.

The only thing they have in common is the symbiote being brought back by John Jameson, which is, really not that hard of an idea. Can't do Secret Wars, the thing comes from space, and hey, we have an established astronaut character.

[Anwar]

And Peter being changed by the symbiote, mentally and physically. But since TAS was the first to do that (and it was written by Stan Lee) I suppose all subsequent symbiote stories are obliged to follow that guideline.

[MattXG]

Kinda hard to copy it when the guy writing the series never watched it.

The only thing they have in common is the symbiote being brought back by John Jameson, which is, really not that hard of an idea. Can't do Secret Wars, the thing comes from space, and hey, we have an established astronaut character.
LOL

Right...I'm sure the writer never heard of what had been done in the last animated series and just happened to coincidentally write the same exact story... :whatever:

[Sarcastic Fan]

And Peter being changed by the symbiote, mentally and physically. But since TAS was the first to do that (and it was written by Stan Lee) I suppose all subsequent symbiote stories are obliged to follow that guideline.

TAS was written by Stan Lee? News to me.

Source?

[Anwar]

Check the writing credits of "Alien Costume" part one. Story was by Stan Lee and Avi Arad.

[Sarcastic Fan]

LOL

Right...I'm sure the writer never heard of what had been done in the last animated series and just happened to coincidentally write the same exact story... :whatever:

I know Greg Weisman personally, have for several years now, before he got this gig. He's never seen more than a single episode of TAS, and when he got this gig, he intentionally chose not to go back and watch any of the prior shows, so he would approach this one fresh.

And it's not the exact same story.

Let's see, did TAS have Chameleon and Black Cat? No.
Was the symbiote stolen from a lab? No.
Did the Sinister Six appear? No.
Did Aunt May have a heart attack? No.
Did Flash Thompson knock some sense into Pete? No.
Did Spidey make a deal with the Big Crime Lord? No.

Did SSM have Promethium X? No.
Was John Jameson hospitalized? No.
Was John Jameson kidnapped? No.
Did Jameson and Spidey team up? No.
Did the shuttle crash in Manhattan? No.
Did we get the origin story? No.

[Sarcastic Fan]

Check the writing credits of "Alien Costume" part one. Story was by Stan Lee and Avi Arad.

Okay, speaking as someone who's working in the biz. That means they may have contributed ideas, they were Semper's bosses after all. But, Stan's connections were loose at best. Both were credited as Executive Producers. That was mostly Semper.

Stan is an Executive Producer on SSM as well, but he's not writing or in the offices or making decisions or anything.

[Anwar]

Really? I'd have thought the basic reinvention of the symbiote as having been brought back by John Jameson and how it actually does stuff to Peter as being something Stan might think up. It's also a way of retelling ASM 1 where Spidey saved John from his crash.

[spida-man]

I know Greg Weisman personally, have for several years now, before he got this gig. He's never seen more than a single episode of TAS, and when he got this gig, he intentionally chose not to go back and watch any of the prior shows, so he would approach this one fresh.

And it's not the exact same story.

Let's see, did TAS have Chameleon and Black Cat? No.
Was the symbiote stolen from a lab? No.
Did the Sinister Six appear? No.
Did Aunt May have a heart attack? No.
Did Flash Thompson knock some sense into Pete? No.
Did Spidey make a deal with the Big Crime Lord? No.

Did SSM have Promethium X? No.
Was John Jameson hospitalized? No.
Was John Jameson kidnapped? No.
Did Jameson and Spidey team up? No.
Did the shuttle crash in Manhattan? No.
Did we get the origin story? No.
lmao
and really if anything was copied from TAS it would be black suit spidey hanging upside down looking at his reflection. that's about it.

[Anwar]

And they may have just used that because it was in SM3.

[Sarcastic Fan]

Really? I'd have thought the basic reinvention of the symbiote as having been brought back by John Jameson and how it actually does stuff to Peter as being something Stan might think up. It's also a way of retelling ASM 1 where Spidey saved John from his crash.

Now, I don't know for sure. I wasn't there. But, I've read interviews with Semper, he pretty much takes credit for that entire show... bit pompous, I think. Says the only episodes he had no control over were the Hobgoblin episodes in season one.

But, Avi Arad is not a storyteller, and these days Stan Lee is more of a businessman. So, while they may have suggested the idea, that's probably all it was. Happens all the time in this biz.

[hpwiz89]

Well up to right now I like the Spectacular Spider-Mna saga more but there is one more episode to go...

[Anwar]

Now, I don't know for sure. I wasn't there. But, I've read interviews with Semper, he pretty much takes credit for that entire show... bit pompous, I think. Says the only episodes he had no control over were the Hobgoblin episodes in season one.

But, Avi Arad is not a storyteller, and these days Stan Lee is more of a businessman. So, while they may have suggested the idea, that's probably all it was. Happens all the time in this biz.

Well, you're probably right seeing how Semper's name was all over the credits for the other Alien Costume episodes.

[MattXG]

I know Greg Weisman personally, have for several years now, before he got this gig. He's never seen more than a single episode of TAS, and when he got this gig, he intentionally chose not to go back and watch any of the prior shows, so he would approach this one fresh.

And it's not the exact same story.

Let's see, did TAS have Chameleon and Black Cat? No.
Was the symbiote stolen from a lab? No.
Did the Sinister Six appear? No.
Did Aunt May have a heart attack? No.
Did Flash Thompson knock some sense into Pete? No.
Did Spidey make a deal with the Big Crime Lord? No.

Did SSM have Promethium X? No.
Was John Jameson hospitalized? No.
Was John Jameson kidnapped? No.
Did Jameson and Spidey team up? No.
Did the shuttle crash in Manhattan? No.
Did we get the origin story? No.
Tiny details. Who cares?

Did the suit hitch a ride down on the Jameson space shuttle? Yes.

Perhaps your acquaintance didn't WATCH the episodes but that doesn't mean he didn't read about them....

Also, TAS DID have a major point with Flash and Peter and the (sorta) Black Cat.

Peter hits on Flash's then girlfriend Felcia Hardy. Flash gets angry and starts to walk off with Felcia and Peter calls Flash a "bonehead" and Flash goes back to Peter and grabs him saying "When did Peter Parker develop a backbone?" and Peter grabs Flash and says "I've developed a lot more than a backbone, Flash." and as they are walking off Felcia (the Black Cat) tells Peter "You HAVE changed...and it scares me."

Which was a moment Peter reflects on later after he almost kills the Rhino...

[Sarcastic Fan]

Tiny details. Who cares?

Did the suit hitch a ride down on the Jameson space shuttle? Yes.

Perhaps your acquaintance didn't WATCH the episodes but that doesn't mean he didn't read about them....

Also, TAS DID have a major point with Flash and Peter and the (sorta) Black Cat.

Peter hits on Flash's then girlfriend Felcia Hardy. Flash gets angry and starts to walk off with Felcia and Peter calls Flash a "bonehead" and Flash goes back to Peter and grabs him saying "When did Peter Parker develop a backbone?" and Peter grabs Flash and says "I've developed a lot more than a backbone, Flash." and as they are walking off Felcia (the Black Cat) tells Peter "You HAVE changed...and it scares me."

Which was a moment Peter reflects on later after he almost kills the Rhino...

Wow, I cite major plot points and you call them "tiny details."

You cite a tiny detail and turn it into a major plot point.

Cute, my friend. Real cute. I bet you were captain of the debate team.

[spida-man]

Tiny details. Who cares?

Did the suit hitch a ride down on the Jameson space shuttle? Yes.

Perhaps your acquaintance didn't WATCH the episodes but that doesn't mean he didn't read about them....

Also, TAS DID have a major point with Flash and Peter and the (sorta) Black Cat.

Peter hits on Flash's then girlfriend Felcia Hardy. Flash gets angry and starts to walk off with Felcia and Peter calls Flash a "bonehead" and Flash goes back to Peter and grabs him saying "When did Peter Parker develop a backbone?" and Peter grabs Flash and says "I've developed a lot more than a backbone, Flash." and as they are walking off Felcia (the Black Cat) tells Peter "You HAVE changed...and it scares me."

Which was a moment Peter reflects on later after he almost kills the Rhino...
isn't that a tiny detail as well?

anyways Spectacular Spider-Man is a little darker than TAS(except for when rhino alsmost got killed) So far the spectacular version seems a little cooler than TAS.

[spida-man]

Wow, I cite major plot points and you call them "tiny details."

You cite a tiny detail and turn it into a major plot point.
LMAO!!

[Kal-El 8]

1. The 90's Spider-Man : The Animated Series - "The Alien Costume"

2. Spider-Man comics - 616

3. Spider-Man 3

4. The Spectacular Spider-Man

5. Ultimate Spider-man comic

6. Spider-Man : Unlimated

[spida-man]

1. The 90'sanimated Series - "The Alien Costume"

2. Spider-Man comics

3. The Spectacular Spider-Man

4. Spider-Man 3
ok, SM3 does not deserve to be at the bottom, if u just don't think about the dance scenes(I'm sorry but the one in the street was hilarious) the SM3 version of the symbiote was actually kind of cool

[MattXG]

Wow, I cite major plot points and you call them "tiny details."

You cite a tiny detail and turn it into a major plot point.
No.

If someone asks you to summarize the Symbiote story for TAS/Spectacular Spider-Man...

You would say "Well, the Jameson's space shuttle came down with the Symbiote on it. Then, Spider-Man accidently gets the symbiote on him. The symbiote slowly takes him over until Peter finally realizes what it is doing to him. He goes to a church tower, rings the bell, which is the symbiote's weakness and gets the symbiote off of him. The symbiote then joins Eddie Brock who is angry at both Peter Parker and Spider-Man for ruining his life."

You'd have no reason to mention Aunt May's heart attack, you'd have no need to mention the Flash Thompson moment, or the crime lords and so on and so forth because those details don't really do anything for the actual story.

I was simply pointing out that there WAS a Peter/Flash moment in TAS because you said there wasn't....

[CaptainCanada]

At this point, I'd say the 90s TAS is better; Spectacular was on its way to being better, but they seriously dropped the ball with the handling of Eddie Brock, who now just doesn't make sense as a character.

Regarding the relationship between TAS and Spectacular, Spectacular uses the TAS revamp of the symbiote, however they came by it.

[Sarcastic Fan]

I was simply pointing out that there WAS a Peter/Flash moment in TAS because you said there wasn't....

I believe my exact words were: " Did Flash Thompson knock some sense into Pete? No."

Which is true. Not once did I say they didn't have a moment.

Words mean what they mean, not what you want them to mean.

Oh, and your description... that's a premise. Not a story. Did it use a very similar premise, yes.

[MattXG]

Regarding the relationship between TAS and Spectacular, Spectacular uses the TAS revamp of the symbiote, however they came by it.
I know, this guy is just trying to bury his head in the sand and pretend like the writer he met once at a comic-con came up with the whole story on his own...because he sort-of, kind-of knows him in person...:whatever:

[November Rain]

i'll go out on a limb and say spidey 3 is better than spectacular.

infact evil pete in spidey 3 is probably the best evil pete

killing sandman
blowing up best friend
slapping MJ

yeah dude was a proper badass.
it let's up with everything from its creation of venom

evil pete in spec is a saint in comparison. I can't see any reason why he'd want to KILL the symbiote honestly, it put no one's life in danger and it was irresponsible for pete to attempt to do so knowing also how it'd affect brock.

[Anwar]

It made him make a deal with Tombstone, if it can do that to Peter (whose whole raison d'etre is to not look the other way) imagine what it can do to someone who was already not the most stable/moral guy around...like Eddie Brock?

[Sarcastic Fan]

I can't see any reason why he'd want to KILL the symbiote honestly, it put no one's life in danger and it was irresponsible for pete to attempt to do so knowing also how it'd affect brock.

Doc Ock, plus a deal with Tombstone which would have put many lives in danger.

[spida-man]

i'll go out on a limb and say spidey 3 is better than spectacular.

infact evil pete in spidey 3 is probably the best evil pete

killing sandman
blowing up best friend
slapping MJ

yeah dude was a proper badass.
it let's up with everything from its creation of venom

evil pete in spec is a saint in comparison. I can't see any reason why he'd want to KILL the symbiote honestly, it put no one's life in danger and it was irresponsible for pete to attempt to do so knowing also how it'd affect brock.
I totally freakin' agree. the movie should have kept one thing with evil pete that the npvel had:

after harry got his face blown up he crawls around the floor and when he sees his reflection in broken glass he screams. ad black suit spidey pulls his mask on while sitting on a building near by and he hears harry screaming he says to himself: "he deserved worse".

damn

[Kal-El 8]

i'll go out on a limb and say spidey 3 is better than spectacular.

infact evil pete in spidey 3 is probably the best evil pete

killing sandman
blowing up best friend
slapping MJ

yeah dude was a proper badass.
it let's up with everything from its creation of venom

evil pete in spec is a saint in comparison. I can't see any reason why he'd want to KILL the symbiote honestly, it put no one's life in danger and it was irresponsible for pete to attempt to do so knowing also how it'd affect brock.

Word Emo Parker in Spidey 3 was a badass .

[Kal-El 8]

Doc Ock, plus a deal with Tombstone which would have put many lives in danger.

Please in The 90's Black Symbiote Spidey almost killed both Rhino & The Shocker . And he webbed up brock in the bell tower .

As Dark Parker he yelled @ Aunt May, He almost kicked Flash Ass, & He scared Felicia Hardy .

[Sarcastic Fan]

Please in The 90's Black Symbiote Spidey almost killed both Rhino & The Shocker . And he webbed up brock in the bell tower .

As Dark Parker he yelled @ Aunt May, He almost kicked Flash Ass, He scared Felicia Hardy .

Please, he didn't yell at Aunt May, he just whined and left the dinner table.

[November Rain]

Doc Ock, plus a deal with Tombstone which would have put many lives in danger.so it deserves to die for being a bad guy????

I had the same thoughts in spidey 3.

What gives peter parker the right to decide whether the sentient life dies or not. It's different if the lifeform dies from not having anything to join with but to purposely go out and kill it. Why not kill all the other supervillains then?

spidey and the symbiote made a deal with tombstone, it wasn't the symbiote alone, peter can still be held responsible for his actions with the symbiote.

[Syncos]

There's no denying that the Symbiote was based around the revamp of the TAS. The way it came to earth, and the way it interacts with Peter. However it's most certainly not a direct knockoff story.

I voted for the TAS. Mainly because I believe that Brock in the animated series had more motivation. Or at least more believable motivation.

[Sarcastic Fan]

There's no denying that the Symbiote was based around the revamp of the TAS. The way it came to earth, and the way it interacts with Peter. However it's most certainly not a direct knockoff story.

I voted for the TAS. Mainly because I believe that Brock in the animated series had more motivation. Or at least more believable motivation.

As I said, similar premise. Different story.

[November Rain]

Please, he didn't yell at Aunt May, he just whined and left the dinner table.
Sarcastin Fan, I understand you don't like the 90s cartoon but I don't think the people here are complaining for the sake of it.

many believe spectacular dropped some balls on this particular arc but its by no means a reflection of the series as a whole which has been a breath of fresh air.

I think you have a tendency to be too defensive sometimes and quick to judge comments.

[spider-neil]

you guys seriously think the SM3 rendition of the symbiote saga is than the SSM rendition? okay, wow...just...wow...:wow:

[November Rain]

edit

[Venom 1988]

I know, this guy is just trying to bury his head in the sand and pretend like the writer he met once at a comic-con came up with the whole story on his own...because he sort-of, kind-of knows him in person...:whatever:
lmao:whatever:, hey he does know him

[Web-Head]

I'd rate em like this;

1. TSSM

2. SM TAS

3. 616

4. Ultimate

5. SM3

[MattXG]

Sarcastin Fan, I understand you don't like the 90s cartoon but I don't think the people here are complaining for the sake of it.

many believe spectacular dropped some balls on this particular arc but its by no means a reflection of the series as a whole which has been a breath of fresh air.

I think you have a tendency to be too defensive sometimes and quick to judge comments.
Its because he met the writer at a comic convention and now feels the need to defend the show like his best friend made the whole thing...:whatever:

Buubub...Premise!

[spida-man]

you guys seriously think the SM3 rendition of the symbiote saga is than the SSM rendition? okay, wow...just...wow...:wow:
I never said it was better, I just agreed that black suit peter and how evil he was is better than all the rest.

[IamProdigy]

So glad no one chose Spider-Man 3...haha.

[November Rain]

Cool bits about each one

616: Original, very subtle story, venom was fresh and freaky with a decent couple of initial arcs

Tas: Reinvented venom very well, liked how symbiote played with parker from the outset, silent symbiote voice/influence, conners laboratory examination, peter/flash encounter, having brock involuntarily take the symbiote. kept the comic suits, intimidation of eddie

Spectacular: morphing costume is cool, symbiote taking spidey out while sleeping, collects nice snippets from others

ultimate: cancer suit based on father's work was genius, fingertip webbing, taking bullets and shocks, parker going crazy over burglary, eddie going crazy over theft of work, venom design, family interaction and legacy

spiderman 3: badass peter parker, really hardcore out for himself complete ass, villain killing girlfriend stalking and slapping and blowing off harry's face. He owned the bugle, he owned his landlord, he owned everyroom he walked into, This is what movie peter parker would have ended up like IF uncle ben hadn't had died which ultimately what i feel black spidey should be (slightl more arrogance for being a chump for as long as he was though).


I still say there's room for a THE BEST SYMBIOTE SAGA. I don't think I've viewed one that can't be beaten.

[Sarcastic Fan]

Its because he met the writer at a comic convention and now feels the need to defend the show like his best friend made the whole thing...:whatever:

Buubub...Premise!

No, I actually do know him. I live and work in Hollywood, and I have lunch with him about once a month. I've been down to that studio several times.

And yes, I do have photographic proof. And not from a convention, I'm talking about in his studio office.

[spider-neil]

I voted SSM but when you think about it the comics (616) really should get the nod

fisrt off you get the black costume and its cool as heck, it is then revealed as a symbiote that is actually alive by reed richards who uses a sonic gun to remove the costume, the costume then broods in a glass tube for a few issues, then escapes it then forcably tries to bond which peter with peter famously using the church bells to get it off.

they then introduce the ooze bonding with brock with eddie becoming venom. so you have a saga which spans years. this is what annoyed me about SM3 it is a long storyline and they tried to shoe horn it in with TWO other villians and to add insult to injury they are going to do a back to movie with SM4 and SM5 you have to laugh I'm struggling to think of a storyoutside the symbiote saga that takes two movies to tell.

anyway my choice goes like this

1. SSM

2. TAS

3. 616

4. ultimate





5. SM3

[Sarcastic Fan]

Anyway, to get back to the topic at hand. I'd say this has been, maybe not the best, but my favorite version.

Unfortunately, the symbiote saga is one that I've never been much of a fan of. I preferred this series' other arcs more.

[Venomfan]

for me it's
1.TAS - that is one thing that show did to perfection, other than this one wierd animation screw up in it

then i don't really know, all the other ones have big flaws in them. I guess the comics would be number 2, so then

2. 616

3. i guess its a tie between the movie and SSM, but i give the edge to SSM for not making Peter go dancing down the street and emo. They really dropped the ball on Brock i feel, because they totally rushed into his hatred. I mean if you watched episodes 1-10 but missed 11, and then saw episode 12, you'd be like "why does Brock hate Peter so much now? what did i miss in episode 11?" and the answer is "some totally random freakout that seemed totally out of character"

4. Spider-man 3 - Emo dancing Peter and a Brock with less muscle than Peter makes it lose points, as well as totally rushing Venom.

6. Ultimate - just too different, great looking art though

[Webhead2006]

I am not going to rate the saga for SSM untill after this saturday episode airs so we see how venom is treated and all that. But i do have this to say. Only TAS and SM3 went with the evil route for the symboite were as the comics and SSM went different were the symboite was really evil parsay it was just influencing his actions and controling his body. As we know with this show greg has stated many many times they are more based on the classic 616 stuff of the comics but if things from the movies, tas, ultimate can work towards their story they will use it and borrow the ideas and mix things together.

[DACrowe]

I'll wait to see the final act to decide, but right now I know this one beats comics and SM3, now all that is left is to see if it can top TAS, then.

[DACrowe]

double post.

Here is how I rank 'em currently:

1. TAS
2. SM3 (I just ignore the street dancing ;))
3. 616
4. Ultimate

I'm gonna' just say SSM has already topped SM3, 616 and Ultimate. That leaves TAS, but I'll reserve judgement.

[Franklin Richards]

Who is this Sage? Another simbiote? Yeesh.


:whatever:


:venom: :venom: :venom:

[Joker]

1. SSM
2. TAS
3. Ultimate
4. 616
5. SM-3

[Hurm...]

1. SSM
2. TAS
3. Ultimate
4. 616
5. SM-3
Same for me.

[hpwiz89]

Poor SM3 isn't gettimg any love. :hehe:

[FNSpidey]

I honestly believe SM3 had the best symbiote saga (although calling it a saga is a stretch and I believe this is most people's problem with it).

For one, Brock's motivations are the best depicted anywhere (with TAS very close indeed). We see early on he's very egotistical, unethical and really air-headed. And he goes on to lose his job, his reputation and the girl he supposedly "intends to marry", ALL by Peter's DIRECT involvement. Praying to God to kill Peter reaffirms all's not well with this guy, not many people would go that far. So it comes as no surprise that with a little nudge from the symbiote he gets totally maniacal.

Second, the symbiote really does make Peter himself quite bad, selfish and immoral. Here, dark Pete does not throw empty threats and doesn't simply yell at people. We see Peter taking care of all of his problems. He really puts his landlord, JJ, Eddie, Harry, Sandman AND MJ in their respective places. He even goes as far as to try (and basically succeed) and kill Sandman, throw a bomb at his best friend's face and humiliate and back-slap the only woman he ever loved. And the best part is that we can see what led to these actions, it's not that the symbiote simply made him evil. He had reasons to act like this even before the symbiote, which just takes care of any restraints he might have had otherwise.

Third, the central theme of the film about revenge seems the perfect frame for the symbiote story. Peter sees that he himself can get carried away with revenge and maybe go too far. And what is Venom if not the ultimate representation of a revenge-driven guy that just can't let go? Sandman provides Peter's focus for revenge and Harry is somewhere in the middle, going a little too far, but finally being able to redeem himself. It all fits nicely (unlike other random villains in other versions of the story) and gives the story a much deeper meaning than "We are Venom and we are badass"!

I even enjoyed the evolution of looks. Blue and red suit, symbiote covering the suit, adopting all the main characteristics with just a few alterations, and finally Venom's "twisted Spidey" look. It has a logical flow to it and leads to the best Venom look to date. Since Venom is essentially a twisted version of Spider-man, having his appearance clearly reflect that is a stroke of genius. Plus it's still quite faithful to his original look. Great production design.

TAS version is a very close second. It just loses points for making Peter suddenly and stereotypically evil and its overall kiddy and simplistic approach. The random involvement of a vague "prometheum X" and Rhino and Shocker doesn't help either.

SSM version I generally like for its more mature approach and dialogue, but they really dropped the ball with the maybe bad Peter (I know the symbiote affected him, but it was so subtle it didn't really have a point) and the very weak characterization for Brock, who in the end lost nothing at all, but ruined his future by randomly stealing the symbiote for himself.

The comics version didn't have the "behavior adjustment" angle, but I really liked the creepy feeling of a seemingly not alive organism trying to secretly take control. Most other versions (especially SSM) lost this feeling by outright stating the symbiote is alive. Brock's characterization here is also weak and random. Keeping in mind though that this saga was invented as they went and not planned from the beginning, it turned out pretty well.

I think Spider-man Unlimited speaks for itself.:cwink:

I think that's all. You can start getting aggressive now...

[Spider-ManHero12]

I absolutely LOVE the comics version, TAS version, the S-M3 version, and the Spectacular Spider-Man version. However, I think the most realsitic one would have to be The Spectacular Spider-Mans' symbiote story. So here's how I'd rate them.

1.SSM
2.TAS
3.Spider-Man 3
4.616
5.Ultimate version

Now, like I said, I LOVE the 616 Symbiote story alot. The order I put them in is how I see them as most realistic, but my favorites aren't in that order. My favorite Symbiote storyline is the comics version, with SSM, S-M3, and TAS versions following very close behind. :up:

[Captain Planet!]

Should be multiple choice.

[xMaNiAx]

I absolutely LOVE the comics version, TAS version, the S-M3 version, and the Spectacular Spider-Man version. However, I think the most realsitic one would have to be The Spectacular Spider-Mans' symbiote story. So here's how I'd rate them.

1.SSM
2.TAS
3.Spider-Man 3
4.616
5.Ultimate version

Now, like I said, I LOVE the 616 Symbiote story alot. The order I put them in is how I see them as most realistic, but my favorites aren't in that order. My favorite Symbiote storyline is the comics version, with SSM, S-M3, and TAS versions following very close behind. :up:

i like this order Hero..:woot:

[Syncos]

This is how I'd rank symbiote sagas up to this point. unless Nature vs Nurture has something that completely changes my mind, which i don't see happening.

1.TAS
2.SSM
3.616
4.Spider-Man 3
5.Ultimate version

TAS: I loved the handling of Brock. He was shifty even in Night of the Lizard. Spidey really screwed him over. even though it was all his fault. Once he came back, I loved him teaming up with Spidey, as the Symbiote started to take over in their bond. Some would probably say that i'm looking at tas through nostalgic eyes. but since I re watched it a few months ago, that's not the case.

SSM: I love how the symbiote was handled, and how Peter was affected. I do however think that how Brock was handled was poorly done. It's one thing to take a already morally gray character and turn them into a villain. It's another thing to take a good person, and shift them into a bad dude. It takes more building than SSM had time to do.

616: Gets points for being the originator. Not the strongest telling, but still leaps and bounds above some... others.

Spider-Man 3: God, what a pile of rubbish. It's one miracle freak encounter for a dude to get spider powers from a genetically enhanced spider. But for that same person to have a meteor with a power enhancing symbiote attached to it, land right by where he's having a date. That's ridiculous. I wasn't a big fan of the designs of either venom or the suit. I feel that topher grace was poorly cast. And I felt that how the Symbiote altered Peter's actions was just poorly displayed. Maybe it was an issue where Tobey couldn't pull it off properly. I don't know. It just failed, in my opinion.

Ultimate: One of my biggest problems with ultimate Spider-Man is how they butchered the Symbiotes. It's one thing to reimage a story. It's another thing to reinvent the wheel. Maybe had it turned out better, I wouldn't be saying that. But It was just painful, to me. This pain is eased by how much I love Bagley's art.

[Venom.X]

Ummm...the Alien Costume saga hasn't finished yet in SSM. Anywho, TAS wins hands down. This show's interpretation of Eddie Brock is great, but I prefer the original comics interpretation with more details added to it (in other words, TAS). Also, while SSM has some great episodes (Group Therapy) to go along with SSM's Venom arc, it didn't thrill me nearly as much as TAS did and still does. This is the only time TAS > SSM.

[Webhead2006]

AS i said in the other post i have here is i am waiting to the next episode to air so i can judge the arch fully before i say anything more on the arch. Each version has there good parts and their bad parts.

[Silver Spider]

1.SM3
2.TAS
4.616
5.Ultimate

Although depending on how Saturday goes, Spectacular Spider-man could be at the top. I think SM3 and TAS both had their strong points, but I put SM3 above it, because of the scene in the Bugle.

[Venom 1988]

I like how you say this
Ummm...the Alien Costume saga hasn't finished yet in SSM. Then this
Anywho, TAS wins hands down.

[Venom.X]

I like how you say this
Then this

Ha ha ha! Inconsistancy...

[Rincewind]

I voted for SSM.

The thing with the symbiote saga is that there is no absolutely perfect version of it. Each and every one of the renditions have their weak points, which somewhat downgrade the whole thing at the end. Would that be the horrible symbiote-controlled Peter in SM:TAS, the horrible Venom in SM 3, the Joe Shmoe-Eddie Brock in 616 etc. it doesn't matter.

SSM is imperfect as well. And that I can tell safely, without the need to watch the upcoming finale of the saga, because the errors were already done and for them, the next episode is without merit. The things that SSM messed up with the symbiote saga are only two, IMO.
The first one is that they rushed way too much with the whole thing. And no, I'm not saying that they should've waited until Season 2 or 3 to introduce the symbiote, but they should've given much more time to the arc. I mean, Peter only wore the black suit for only three episodes and that wasn't enough. The rejection of the alien was very elaborate and I liked it very much (even with the too-well-known origin of Spidey inside); however, the impact would've been greater if Peter wore the suit longer (I'm gonna take a leap and even say - the entire Season 2, until the last two or three episodes). That way the symbiote could've been presented as a much more seroius threat as it would've had more than enough time to slowly destroy Peter's life.
The second thing they messed up was Eddie Brock. Unlike the symbiote-controlled Peter, he wasn't so much rushed, as he was too... sudden. Up until Episode 11 he was just pissed off and nothing more. And then, out of the blue he became obssesive soon-to-be-maniac, endangering human lives, while brooding over Peter on his bike. No. Just No. Actually, the time I wish they'd given to the symbiote, could've helped here, too. I think that it would've been better if he dropped for real from college after he was fired from Connors' lab; and, for example, he could've tried to steal the money he needs to try and go back to college or something; and be caught by Spider-Man, who turns him over the police, because by the influence of the symbiote he wouldn't make another compromise for his friend after the thing with Harry. That way it could've even be dragged to the church origin of Venom by the end of Season 2, although I don't mind at all the lab one we got.

Still, despite these two mistakes, I think that SSM did a lot of things very good. For example, albeit the time they gave him was short, the SSM's symbiote-controlled Peter is my favorite one. He was not over-the-top-and-out-of-the-blue monstrous as was the one in SM:TAS and that is a great plus. IMHO, the symbiotes should be able to make monsters only from already nasty people aka. Brock or Cassidy; a good and decent guy as Peter should become a complete *******, arrogant, dangerous and completely capable of ruining his own life, but not some murderous beast. And that was handled very well in SSM.
The other thing I liked was that the alien gathered strength from its host's negative emotions. That explains wonderful why it took over Peter when he learned that Aunt May had a heart attack and why Eddie became Venom in a matter of seconds.
It was really nice touch also how the alien took alone the entire Sinister Six, while Peter was sleeping; that made it look really dangerous, especially since Pete couldn't beat them when he was awake and in control.
The rejection of the symbiote was perfectly done as well (tho not so exellent timely-wise as it would've been better to get it later on, but hey - you can't have it all). It was elaborate and precise, and it provided great character development for Peter.

The only thing left is to see the final (but not the last, hopefully) fight between Spidey and Venom. And I'm sure that SSM won't disappoint me with it.

[FNSpidey]

^^ Very well said, Rincewind.

And I love your name. Long time Discworld fan myself.

[spida-man]

1. The 90's Spider-Man : The Animated Series - "The Alien Costume"

2. Spider-Man comics - 616

3. Spider-Man 3

4. The Spectacular Spider-Man

5. Ultimate Spider-man comic

6. Spider-Man : Unlimated
wouldn't spider-Man Unlimited go right next to Spider-Man TAS series since it was bassically a continuation?

[Rincewind]

^^ Very well said, Rincewind.

And I love your name. Long time Discworld fan myself.

:woot:

Hey, I thought I was the only one of these here, glad to know that we can crawl out everywhere :oldrazz:

[Spiderine]

All I am going to say is Spiderman 3 version goes dead last on my list.

[Anwar]

Why? Because he danced for 6 minutes? He still did some really nasty stuff there.

[spida-man]

Why? Because he danced for 6 minutes? He still did some really nasty stuff there.
agreed. why can't ppl ever over look the dancing and the hair? i mean come on now.

[Webhead2006]

Yea and since raimi wasnt a fan of venom and the studio forcing the character into the film fans should be happy he was in there at all. Yes parts of SM3 did stuck but i thought the film was overall enjoyable. I hope SM4 wont get screwed over by the studio and the crew can do what they want to do and go back to only 1 villain maybe 2.

[Spiderine]

Why? Because he danced for 6 minutes? He still did some really nasty stuff there.
No, not really. It's the sym showing up via a meteor crashlanding next to his bike. Then hitching a ride on the back of his bike and all the while coincidentally on the other side of town, the man who shot Uncle Ben magically gets sandlike powers. Didn't particular care for Gopher Grace for several reasons. And the icing on the cake was going all WWE on Spidey tag teaming with ole Sandy. Thats why. If we are talking about overall symbiote saga, this was the worst IMO.

[hpwiz89]

Maybe people didn't like his dance moves. :woot:

[Spiderine]

Maybe people didn't like his dance moves. :woot:
Actually, his dancing was divine.

[Spiderine]

Yea and since raimi wasnt a fan of venom and the studio forcing the character into the film fans should be happy he was in there at all. Yes parts of SM3 did stuck but i thought the film was overall enjoyable. I hope SM4 wont get screwed over by the studio and the crew can do what they want to do and go back to only 1 villain maybe 2.
And maybe that was the problem. A half-hearted attempt to please Avi, the studio and fans instead of puting your best foot forward and reinventing the character of Brock and making a better splash with the Sym arrival.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Yea and since raimi wasnt a fan of venom and the studio forcing the character into the film fans should be happy he was in there at all. Indeed! Sometimes I feel that people can sometimes be very ungrateful.

[Anwar]

Using the John Jameson origin would have taken too much time and money, and caused too many problems.

1) If they brought John back then the audience would want there to be a continuation of the John/MJ thing from SM2 and be mad when there wasn't because the John/MJ thing served its purpose and is done with.

2) The whole sequence of the shuttle finding the symbiote in space and coming back would take like 40 minutes to do and 40 minutes straight. That's 40 minutes wasted on explaining where the friggin goo came from.

3) Too much like what Superman did in "Returns" a year earlier.

And it's just as big a coincidence for the shuttle to crash in NYC instead of Florida.

The Meteor was quick and simple, it's an alien. They just needed to set it up better.

[Syncos]

Why? Because he danced for 6 minutes? He still did some really nasty stuff there.

The fact that he did some bad things, doesn't make up for the rest of the movie. Not to mention the fact that Maguire wasn't believable in those scenes.

Spider-Man 3 didn't hit enough right notes, to be a counted as a song.

[Rincewind]

fans should be happy he was in there at all.

I'm sorry but why, since they didn't do him any justice?

[Syncos]

Using the John Jameson origin would have taken too much time and money, and caused too many problems.

1) If they brought John back then the audience would want there to be a continuation of the John/MJ thing from SM2 and be mad when there wasn't because the John/MJ thing served its purpose and is done with.

2) The whole sequence of the shuttle finding the symbiote in space and coming back would take like 40 minutes to do and 40 minutes straight. That's 40 minutes wasted on explaining where the friggin goo came from.

3) Too much like what Superman did in "Returns" a year earlier.

And it's just as big a coincidence for the shuttle to crash in NYC instead of Florida.

The Meteor was quick and simple, it's an alien. They just needed to set it up better.

Wow. Normally you have a lot of valid and respectable points. But i'm calling BS on this.

1) You're right about one thing. The MJ/Jameson is over. She left him at the alter. The audience is smart enough to accept that he probably wouldn't want anything to do with her, and that she's obviously moved on. People wouldn't expect it to come back up.

2) a 40 minute shuttle sequence? are you insane? The jameson shuttle thing has been done twice, both times as snippets in a 20 minute animated series. I'm sure they can tell the story just as quickly in live action.

3) It's not the same as Superman returns in any way. You're not going to see Spider-Man in the air, trying to stop the shuttle from crashing. but you could certainly see him saving Jameson and crew from the shuttle.

If the core can do that shot with a shuttle landing in the city, with their budget. i'm sure it wouldn't be too costly for a movie with Spider-Man's budget.

[Webhead2006]

Yes there is alot of things SM3 could have done better with the symboite arrival and usage in the film. Really they should have just kepted the original plan of sandman and harry be the film villains. Then also keep brock in the film but then have symboite have the symboite for the full film like it was but just lose it at the end and have venom set up for the next film.

[Spider-Bat]

This new series did a great job with Venom, better than the 90's and way better than the movies. I loved how the suit evolved into all black, first it had the webbing then lost it and the Spider got bigger.

[Webzpinner]

The Animated Series was the best. Its why Spectacular Spider-Man copied it.

The Animated Series made the whole thing seem more "epic" to me. Especially when Brock became Venom. The whole dream sequence where Spider-Man and the Symbiote are fighting over Peter Parker was also much better in TAS...

What I LOVED about SSM was the fact that for the first time, you actually see the internal struggle of Peter with the suit. The actual battle of wills. It portrayed the costume as a sentient being, rather than just angry longjohns.
FAR better than the dream suit eating peter while roaring.

At this point, I'd say the 90s TAS is better; Spectacular was on its way to being better, but they seriously dropped the ball with the handling of Eddie Brock, who now just doesn't make sense as a character.

Brock makes almost perfect sense. Brock shows anger issues and instability before even touching the symbiote. He shows jealousy towards all the things Peter takes for granted (Gwen, Aunt May, the Conners, etc). He lost his parents because his dad was a partner of Pete's dad. So many things were ruined by Parkers. He wants to punish Peter for Peter's blantant disregard. Once the alien takes control and boosts that hatred, Brock wants to kill Peter.

Far better than "wah wah I lost my job! wah wah you must die!" of the comics and TAS.

you guys seriously think the SM3 rendition of the symbiote saga is than the SSM rendition? okay, wow...just...wow...:wow:

It's better than the comics or most of TAS. Brock is given a creepy stalker lovelife, a slimy ego, and shows a bit of an imbalanced mind (asking God to kill Peter). Better development than we got in TAS or the comics.

No, not really. It's the sym showing up via a meteor crashlanding next to his bike. Then hitching a ride on the back of his bike and all the while coincidentally on the other side of town, the man who shot Uncle Ben magically gets sandlike powers. Didn't particular care for Gopher Grace for several reasons. And the icing on the cake was going all WWE on Spidey tag teaming with ole Sandy. Thats why. If we are talking about overall symbiote saga, this was the worst IMO.

Sandman was the only thing I HATED about SM3. He had no use. He should have merely been a "Stepping stone" not a main baddie. Also, the fact that they retconned the 1st movie, and gave Sandman moral ambiguity (by wanting to save his daughter) just seemed dumb. Why must a bad guy have a reason other than just wanting to get rich. Why must movie baddies have some moral reason for their actions? Some people are just bad people. Plain and simple.

[crd1682]

I voted for SSM.

The thing with the symbiote saga is that there is no absolutely perfect version of it. Each and every one of the renditions have their weak points, which somewhat downgrade the whole thing at the end. Would that be the horrible symbiote-controlled Peter in SM:TAS, the horrible Venom in SM 3, the Joe Shmoe-Eddie Brock in 616 etc. it doesn't matter.

SSM is imperfect as well. And that I can tell safely, without the need to watch the upcoming finale of the saga, because the errors were already done and for them, the next episode is without merit. The things that SSM messed up with the symbiote saga are only two, IMO.
The first one is that they rushed way too much with the whole thing. And no, I'm not saying that they should've waited until Season 2 or 3 to introduce the symbiote, but they should've given much more time to the arc. I mean, Peter only wore the black suit for only three episodes and that wasn't enough. The rejection of the alien was very elaborate and I liked it very much (even with the too-well-known origin of Spidey inside); however, the impact would've been greater if Peter wore the suit longer (I'm gonna take a leap and even say - the entire Season 2, until the last two or three episodes). That way the symbiote could've been presented as a much more seroius threat as it would've had more than enough time to slowly destroy Peter's life.
The second thing they messed up was Eddie Brock. Unlike the symbiote-controlled Peter, he wasn't so much rushed, as he was too... sudden. Up until Episode 11 he was just pissed off and nothing more. And then, out of the blue he became obssesive soon-to-be-maniac, endangering human lives, while brooding over Peter on his bike. No. Just No. Actually, the time I wish they'd given to the symbiote, could've helped here, too. I think that it would've been better if he dropped for real from college after he was fired from Connors' lab; and, for example, he could've tried to steal the money he needs to try and go back to college or something; and be caught by Spider-Man, who turns him over the police, because by the influence of the symbiote he wouldn't make another compromise for his friend after the thing with Harry. That way it could've even be dragged to the church origin of Venom by the end of Season 2, although I don't mind at all the lab one we got.

Still, despite these two mistakes, I think that SSM did a lot of things very good. For example, albeit the time they gave him was short, the SSM's symbiote-controlled Peter is my favorite one. He was not over-the-top-and-out-of-the-blue monstrous as was the one in SM:TAS and that is a great plus. IMHO, the symbiotes should be able to make monsters only from already nasty people aka. Brock or Cassidy; a good and decent guy as Peter should become a complete *******, arrogant, dangerous and completely capable of ruining his own life, but not some murderous beast. And that was handled very well in SSM.
The other thing I liked was that the alien gathered strength from its host's negative emotions. That explains wonderful why it took over Peter when he learned that Aunt May had a heart attack and why Eddie became Venom in a matter of seconds.
It was really nice touch also how the alien took alone the entire Sinister Six, while Peter was sleeping; that made it look really dangerous, especially since Pete couldn't beat them when he was awake and in control.
The rejection of the symbiote was perfectly done as well (tho not so exellent timely-wise as it would've been better to get it later on, but hey - you can't have it all). It was elaborate and precise, and it provided great character development for Peter.

The only thing left is to see the final (but not the last, hopefully) fight between Spidey and Venom. And I'm sure that SSM won't disappoint me with it.

Sir, I believe you've nailed it.

How anyone can say that the TAS version beats out SSM is beyond me. So the Brock in this version wasn't perfect (I was actually okay with how he was handled). But I'll tell you this. I've been waiting for a decent animated Spidey vs. Venom fight for a long time and TAS did not deliver. it might have been great 10 years ago, but what we got from that saga were two half-fights and one chase scene. And it is already confirmed that in SSM, Spidey and Venom will actually be...GASP....hitting each other!

I mean TAS did a lot of things right. We got the awesome black costume, Spidey going nuts, a great introduction of Venom, not to mention one of the greatest cliffhanger lines I've ever heard in my life:

"Spider-Man, enjoy your fame...WHILE...IT...LAAAAASSSTS!"

Plus, the TAS saga gets extra bonus points just for nostalgia and being the thing that introduced me to Spidey comics in the first place.

And SSM STILL beats it. Compare what happened in TAS to:


Introduction of Black Cat

MATURE dialogue between Spidey and Black Cat (I mean c'mon. 'My kitty sense is purring?' What the HELL.)

An alien costume that is influenced by the movie and the comics AND changes appearance overtime.

A much better rogue gallery, with Chameleon, Early Tinkerer and Mysterio and the Sinister Six.

A much more subtle influence of the alien costume, which I really appreciated, as apposed to Spidey wanting to kill the Rhino for not telling him where the Prometheum X was before the first ep of the saga was over.

The symbiote using Pete's body to clobber the Sinister Six

Aunt May having a heart attack on a Saturday morning cartoon

A MUCH better 'Spidey must prove his innocence' storyline than in TAS

Doc Ock being the insane badass that he is

A very well written origin story

AND superior writing and action

AND ITS NOT EVEN DONE YET!!!


Now granted, if I were writing on SSM, I would never have had Brock introduced as such a stand up guy. As of now I really don't see the point behind it. He should have been a jerk from the start, but also a friend of Peter's. I still like the SSM Brock though, and I agree that the TAS Brock was handled a bit better.

SM3? Meh. Though I really liked how Peter WILLINGLY put on the costume when he knew it would make all of his morals diminish and headed out to kill Sandman. Venom and Sandman together never should have happened. It should have been Spidey v. Venom for the finale with Harry coming to save Pete.

Just my two cents.

[Anwar]

Wow. Normally you have a lot of valid and respectable points. But i'm calling BS on this.

1) You're right about one thing. The MJ/Jameson is over. She left him at the alter. The audience is smart enough to accept that he probably wouldn't want anything to do with her, and that she's obviously moved on. People wouldn't expect it to come back up.

2) a 40 minute shuttle sequence? are you insane? The jameson shuttle thing has been done twice, both times as snippets in a 20 minute animated series. I'm sure they can tell the story just as quickly in live action.

3) It's not the same as Superman returns in any way. You're not going to see Spider-Man in the air, trying to stop the shuttle from crashing. but you could certainly see him saving Jameson and crew from the shuttle.

If the core can do that shot with a shuttle landing in the city, with their budget. i'm sure it wouldn't be too costly for a movie with Spider-Man's budget.

2) For a live-action movie they'd need to show the shuttle in space, finding the symbiote on that asteroid they went to investigate, have the symbiote attack the crew and then have it crash with Spidey going to save the astronauts and somehow get infected.

In live-action that would take up to 30-40 minutes to do. All that time WASTED on explaining where the friggin goo came from.

Plus all the money sunk into it would be a waste because the space shuttle segment would have no bearing on the story beyond that point. In TAS the whole plot revolved around the prometheum X they brought back, John being used later and the climax with the John Jameson Space Probe. For the movie we'd get the space shuttle crash for the symbiote's origin and NOTHING ELSE. Waste of time.

3) Hero saves out of control shuttle, close enough.

[Anwar]

Brock makes almost perfect sense. Brock shows anger issues and instability before even touching the symbiote. He shows jealousy towards all the things Peter takes for granted (Gwen, Aunt May, the Conners, etc). He lost his parents because his dad was a partner of Pete's dad. So many things were ruined by Parkers. He wants to punish Peter for Peter's blantant disregard. Once the alien takes control and boosts that hatred, Brock wants to kill Peter.

Far better than "wah wah I lost my job! wah wah you must die!" of the comics and TAS.

Brock's anger issues and stuff came out of nowhere. At no point before "Group Therapy" was it shown he was unstable in any way nor did he show any jealousy towards Peter over Gwen/May/Connors. He's mad at Peter for stuff ANYONE would be mad at Peter over, this "Peter must suffer!" stuff is contrived BS.

Now, if they reveal in N vs N all of Brock's issues towards Peter like blaming the Parkers for what happened to the Brocks, being jealous of Peter's family and etc, then I'll like it. As it stands SSM Brock isn't that believable.

TAS Brock still is the best Brock I've watched so far.

[Ratcrawler]

Here's what bugs me about Venom regardless of the version...

Venom's got a huge mouth lined with sharp teeth and a prehensile tongue. Eddie Brock doesn't. So, does the symbiote re-mutate Brock's face back to it's original self when Eddie feels like talking? And how does Venom even make any coherent statements if he talks...

A) with a giant tongue waving around,
B) huge rows of fangs
C) seemingly no lips

I suppose the movie did a pretty good job up until the very end. The way I understood it, the symbiote was still developing while feeding off Parker and he managed to remove the thing just before it permanently bonded itself to him. Having adapted to sPider-Man's physiology, it changes hosts to Eddie Brock who gains a fully mature symbiote endowed with sPidey-powers that can now permanently bond itself to a human host's anatomy. This explains Brock's fangs in human mode and his apparent ability to mutate his own face.

But lo and behold, at the end, Eddie Brock is removed more easily from the Venom suit than Peter originally was. What the hell?

[Anwar]

I think Eddie having fangs while bonded was more an illusion made by the symbiote to show how Eddie's inner demon had been more fully brought out and his Venom face seems to be the symbiote's natural face (it forms a Venom face at the Church when Peter is forcing it off).

They were separated because they had only been bonded for about 24 hours. Less even.

[Syncos]

Here's what bugs me about Venom regardless of the version...

Venom's got a huge mouth lined with sharp teeth and a prehensile tongue. Eddie Brock doesn't. So, does the symbiote re-mutate Brock's face back to it's original self when Eddie feels like talking? And how does Venom even make any coherent statements if he talks...

A) with a giant tongue waving around,
B) huge rows of fangs
C) seemingly no lips

I suppose the movie did a pretty good job up until the very end. The way I understood it, the symbiote was still developing while feeding off Parker and he managed to remove the thing just before it permanently bonded itself to him. Having adapted to sPider-Man's physiology, it changes hosts to Eddie Brock who gains a fully mature symbiote endowed with sPidey-powers that can now permanently bond itself to a human host's anatomy. This explains Brock's fangs in human mode and his apparent ability to mutate his own face.

But lo and behold, at the end, Eddie Brock is removed more easily from the Venom suit than Peter originally was. What the hell?

Interesting points. The TAS had made it apparent that the venom face was basically like a mask, that folded backwards. It wasn't a mutation as much as the symbiote formed around his face. I don't really know what to tell you.

[Anwar]

It was more or less an illusion the symbiote made to show that Brock was more accepting of the changes and was a darker guy than Peter.

[Syncos]

2) For a live-action movie they'd need to show the shuttle in space, finding the symbiote on that asteroid they went to investigate, have the symbiote attack the crew and then have it crash with Spidey going to save the astronauts and somehow get infected.

In live-action that would take up to 30-40 minutes to do. All that time WASTED on explaining where the friggin goo came from.

Plus all the money sunk into it would be a waste because the space shuttle segment would have no bearing on the story beyond that point. In TAS the whole plot revolved around the prometheum X they brought back, John being used later and the climax with the John Jameson Space Probe. For the movie we'd get the space shuttle crash for the symbiote's origin and NOTHING ELSE. Waste of time.

3) Hero saves out of control shuttle, close enough.

2) 5-10 Minutes of showing the shuttle in space and the symbiote attack on the way into the atmosphere is all that was necessary. Anything more than that would be overdoing it.

3) One has a hero pulling people out of wreckage of a crash. the other has a hero trying to stop a plane (not shuttle) from crashing into a stadium, where he's displayed gently resting the plane in a stadium full of people.

Those are drastically different, both in concept, and visuals.

[FNSpidey]

I posted in page 3 several reasons for why I think the SM3 symbiote saga worked. I think they are somewhat more important than the random arrival of the symbiote next to Pete. After all, as previously mentioned, the shuttle crashing in NYC (Spidey's turf) is also quite convenient. Having it brought to earth and immediately sent to Connors (a random scientist, instead of a trained government team), in whose lab Peter just happens to work, is even more a stretch. It's really quite impossible to make a story with so many characters without some coincidences.

Besides, designing, constructing and filming a space shuttle and a sequence involving it, not to mention bringing back (and paying) an actor for its pilot, just to explain how an alien goo ended up on earth is a total waste of money and time. Besides, I quite like the simplicity of it just arriving on a meteorite. Did it plan it? Did it just happen? The symbiote has always been mysterious.

[varsas]

...and immediately sent to Connors (a random scientist, instead of a trained government team), in whose lab Peter just happens to work, is even more a stretch...

Isn't Connors referred to as a leading scientist in a relevant field in the news report in the SSM episode? It's then not a stretch unless you think the government hides away anything to do with aliens.

[spider-neil]

agreed. why can't ppl ever over look the dancing and the hair? i mean come on now.

when peter looked at his reflection in the mirror and then combed his hair over to one side (after the harry fight I think) to show his 'evil' the cinema I was in absolutely cracked up laughing :woot:

[Anwar]

2) 5-10 Minutes of showing the shuttle in space and the symbiote attack on the way into the atmosphere is all that was necessary. Anything more than that would be overdoing it.

3) One has a hero pulling people out of wreckage of a crash. the other has a hero trying to stop a plane (not shuttle) from crashing into a stadium, where he's displayed gently resting the plane in a stadium full of people.

Those are drastically different, both in concept, and visuals.

2) In a live-action movie the audience would demand more. They'd want to know why they were up there to begin with, an explanation of how they found the symbiote and the attack, and then a detailed account of why it crash in NYC and where it crashed.

And like I said, the shuttle would be irrelevant to the plot afterwards unlike TAS where the plot revolved around it.

3) It's still close enough to make the studio nervous.

[Joker]

when peter looked at his reflection in the mirror and then combed his hair over to one side (after the harry fight I think) to show his 'evil' the cinema I was in absolutely cracked up laughing :woot:

And therein lies the problem. We should not be laughing at Peter's dark side. Ever. It evoked more laughter than his nerdy side did, and that is just not right.

The dark side is exactly what it means....dark. Not supposed to be laughing at it.

[November Rain]

For the film I can understand why it was done, it was supposed to mirror his raindrops scenes from spidey 2 which it did.

the symbiote is bound to have a different effect on parker from the origin story (tas) because fundamentally the peter parker's in both universes are very different.

As bad as it sounds, the dancing pete fitted in with raimi's parker more than an evil one would have because he had all this adoration from being spiderman which tas' didn't.

This is highlighted near the end of the series where this spidey meets the iron spidey and he's more like the film spidey who is loved and adored by his public and hence more arrogant which is ultimately what movie spidey is.

[spida-man]

The fact that he did some bad things, doesn't make up for the rest of the movie. Not to mention the fact that Maguire wasn't believable in those scenes.

Spider-Man 3 didn't hit enough right notes, to be a counted as a song.

that's why there is a SM3 Soundtrack:woot:

[spida-man]

when peter looked at his reflection in the mirror and then combed his hair over to one side (after the harry fight I think) to show his 'evil' the cinema I was in absolutely cracked up laughing :woot:
part of me did chuckle when his hair was further down in the sene where he shows up in Harry's doorway

[spida-man]

No, not really. It's the sym showing up via a meteor crashlanding next to his bike. Then hitching a ride on the back of his bike and all the while coincidentally on the other side of town, the man who shot Uncle Ben magically gets sandlike powers. Didn't particular care for Gopher Grace for several reasons. And the icing on the cake was going all WWE on Spidey tag teaming with ole Sandy. Thats why. If we are talking about overall symbiote saga, this was the worst IMO.

uh, isn't almost everything that happens to spidey supposedly a coincident?

[Syncos]

For the film I can understand why it was done, it was supposed to mirror his raindrops scenes from spidey 2 which it did.

the symbiote is bound to have a different effect on parker from the origin story (tas) because fundamentally the peter parker's in both universes are very different.

As bad as it sounds, the dancing pete fitted in with raimi's parker more than an evil one would have because he had all this adoration from being spiderman which tas' didn't.

This is highlighted near the end of the series where this spidey meets the iron spidey and he's more like the film spidey who is loved and adored by his public and hence more arrogant which is ultimately what movie spidey is.

Except that iron spidey was more like Tony Stark than raimi's Spider-man.

[Silver Spider]

And therein lies the problem. We should not be laughing at Peter's dark side. Ever. It evoked more laughter than his nerdy side did, and that is just not right.

The dark side is exactly what it means....dark. Not supposed to be laughing at it.
Just because somebody has a dark side, which everyone does, doesn't mean it's always in effect. He was doing all those nerdy things, because he wasn't angry or agressive at the time. And it was right after he (seemingly) killed Sandman; insulted Harry and blew up his face; and Ruined Eddie's career. He was basically on a symbiote-induced high. Just because a persons dark side is uncovered, doesn't mean they're always consumed by it. And it's clealy shown that Peter wasn't completely consumed by the symbiote, therefore he wasn't by his dark side either. Eddie was consumed by it, so that's why he never did a strut down the street.

[November Rain]

Except that iron spidey was more like Tony Stark than raimi's Spider-man.
tony stark has confidence and years of sucess behind him as well as public adoration. Raimi's dark spiderman had the public's adoration and years of experience but lacked the technical know how to push his abilities further but he didn't need that since the symbiote effectively gave him that.
I think there were plenty of aspects of iron spidey that differ from tony stark, Iron spidey always wanted to lead and had his eye on the prize and well earned sense of overconfidence in his own ability. I could see him celebrating like raimi's symbiote spiderman in a bar after taking down a criminal hard and being the man around town or at least thinking he was.

[November Rain]

Just because somebody has a dark side, which everyone does, doesn't mean it's always in effect. He was doing all those nerdy things, because he wasn't angry or agressive at the time. And it was right after he (seemingly) killed Sandman; insulted Harry and blew up his face; and Ruined Eddie's career. He was basically on a symbiote-induced high. Just because a persons dark side is uncovered, doesn't mean they're always consumed by it. And it's clealy shown that Peter wasn't completely consumed by the symbiote, therefore he wasn't by his dark side either. Eddie was consumed by it, so that's why he never did a strut down the street.
yeah, a symbiote induced nerdy idiot is still going to be a nerdy idiot just slightly darker...

[Joker]

Just because somebody has a dark side, which everyone does, doesn't mean it's always in effect. He was doing all those nerdy things, because he wasn't angry or agressive at the time. And it was right after he (seemingly) killed Sandman; insulted Harry and blew up his face; and Ruined Eddie's career. He was basically on a symbiote-induced high. Just because a persons dark side is uncovered, doesn't mean they're always consumed by it. And it's clealy shown that Peter wasn't completely consumed by the symbiote, therefore he wasn't by his dark side either. Eddie was consumed by it, so that's why he never did a strut down the street.

We've been thru this before in the SM-3 forum.

The simple fact is that Peter's dark side was nothing but camp for 90% of the time. It was stupid, corny, and a complete mockery of a story that should have been alot darker.

There's a reason they never treated it like this in any other medium, comics or cartoon. Because it's stupid. What dark sides of characters have had you laughing or cringing in your seat? None, I bet.

Raimi cheesified it to the max. Simple as that. If you like Peter Parker's dark side as an emo looking, air humping, strutting down the street moron, then SM-3 is for you.

Some of us prefer a more mature approach to a dark story.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Just because somebody has a dark side, which everyone does, doesn't mean it's always in effect. He was doing all those nerdy things, because he wasn't angry or agressive at the time. And it was right after he (seemingly) killed Sandman; insulted Harry and blew up his face; and Ruined Eddie's career. He was basically on a symbiote-induced high. Just because a persons dark side is uncovered, doesn't mean they're always consumed by it. And it's clealy shown that Peter wasn't completely consumed by the symbiote, therefore he wasn't by his dark side either. Eddie was consumed by it, so that's why he never did a strut down the street. Very well said and exactly my thoughts. :up:

[Eddie Brock]

I posted in page 3 several reasons for why I think the SM3 symbiote saga worked. I think they are somewhat more important than the random arrival of the symbiote next to Pete. After all, as previously mentioned, the shuttle crashing in NYC (Spidey's turf) is also quite convenient. Having it brought to earth and immediately sent to Connors (a random scientist, instead of a trained government team), in whose lab Peter just happens to work, is even more a stretch. It's really quite impossible to make a story with so many characters without some coincidences.

Besides, designing, constructing and filming a space shuttle and a sequence involving it, not to mention bringing back (and paying) an actor for its pilot, just to explain how an alien goo ended up on earth is a total waste of money and time. Besides, I quite like the simplicity of it just arriving on a meteorite. Did it plan it? Did it just happen? The symbiote has always been mysterious.
Let me get this straight...

You're complaining about these coincidences with a character who:
1. Just happened to be bitten by a radioactive spider.
2. Just happened to let a man get away - only to have that man just happen to kill his Uncle.
3. Just happened to get superpowers from an event that would probably just poison you in real life.

Glad you're looking for logic, though. :up:

[Anwar]

And he just happens to be best friends with the son of the man who is his greatest foe, his new scientist friend just happens to become his second biggest foe, and the girl he loves just HAS to fall in love with his boss' son, of all people?

[Silver Spider]

We've been thru this before in the SM-3 forum.

The simple fact is that Peter's dark side was nothing but camp for 90% of the time. It was stupid, corny, and a complete mockery of a story that should have been alot darker.

There's a reason they never treated it like this in any other medium, comics or cartoon. Because it's stupid. What dark sides of characters have had you laughing or cringing in your seat? None, I bet.

Raimi cheesified it to the max. Simple as that. If you like Peter Parker's dark side as an emo looking, air humping, strutting down the street moron, then SM-3 is for you.

Some of us prefer a more mature approach to a dark story.
You apparently missed my point. I said that when he air humping and struting down the street, his dark side wasn't showing. That was his arrogance, and assertive nerdiness. if that was the only "bad" things he did, then I'd be with you, but he did so much more then the total 5 minutes of dancing, in the over 2 hour movie.

[Joker]

You apparently missed my point. I said that when he air humping and struting down the street, his dark side wasn't showing. That was his arrogance, and assertive nerdiness. if that was the only "bad" things he did, then I'd be with you, but he did so much more then the total 5 minutes of dancing, in the over 2 hour movie.

Of course it was his dark side. The symbiote was on him and influencing him. He was treating women like sex objects. Making hand gestures at them. Look at how he was with Ursula. "Fetch me milk. Make me cookies with nuts". And the whole dance thing in the jazz club was all to try and humiliate MJ and make her jealous.

As for your claim of 5 minutes of dancing in a 2 hour movie, the symbiote didn't even become a factor in the story until the second hour of the movie. And Peter only had it in a handful of scenes.

[Silver Spider]

The scene in the Jazz club was not as bad as everyone makes it put to be. The only part I thought was unneeded in that scene was his line, "Now dig on this." He was influenced by the dark side, he wasn't being controlled by it. So there are parts where he isn't just going around yelling and violently beating criminals.

[Joker]

The scene in the Jazz club was not as bad as everyone makes it put to be.

That depends on how cheesy you like your movies to be. People were either laughing or cringing at that scene.

Either one is not the response you should be having to seeing someone's dark side.

He was influenced by the dark side, he wasn't being controlled by it. So there are parts where he isn't just going around yelling and violently beating criminals.

Come on, you don't have to be yelling or beating up people to show a dark/bad side. His treatment of women around him showed that. He was on the verge of banging Betty Brant on Jonah's desk in one scene :woot:

[Spider-ManHero12]

Of course it was his dark side. The symbiote was on him and influencing him. He was treating women like sex objects. Making hand gestures at them. Look at how he was with Ursula. "Fetch me milk. Make me cookies with nuts". And the whole dance thing in the jazz club was all to try and humiliate MJ and make her jealous. The "fetch me milk. Make me cookies with nuts." line was just the Symbiote bringing out Peters' wild/goofy/dark side. It made him mean, sarcastic, and it made him flirt alot. The dance scenes were meant to be comedic, but part of the story as well. He also wasn't really treating women like sex objects all too much. What he was doing to them is what he basically didn't have enough guts to do as normal peter Parker. That's basically what it's supposed ot tell us.

[Silver Spider]

That depends on how cheesy you like your movies to be. People were either laughing or cringing at that scene.

Either one is not the response you should be having to seeing someone's dark side.
His intentions were dark, and people weren't laughing at those. Except for the strange people, that thought hitting MJ was funny.


Come on, you don't have to be yelling or beating up people to show a dark/bad side. His treatment of women around him showed that. He was on the verge of banging Betty Brant on Jonah's desk in one scene :woot:
I thought you didn't like those parts. They were coupled with the dancing afterall.

Can we stop debating, I'm getting tired of it. I just had to justify Spectacular Spider-man's Eddie Brock to people yesterday; and they still don't like him. Ya'll know who you are.

[Ratcrawler]

The movies do take the coincidences a bit too far. And the cartoon makes NYC look sParcely populated.

[Joker]

The "fetch me milk. Make me cookies with nuts." line was just the Symbiote bringing out Peters' wild/goofy/dark side. It made him mean, sarcastic, and it made him flirt alot. The dance scenes were meant to be comedic, but part of the story as well. He also wasn't really treating women like sex objects all too much. What he was doing to them is what he basically didn't have enough guts to do as normal peter Parker. That's basically what it's supposed ot tell us.

We don't need the symbiote to bring out Peter's goofy side. That's what regular Peter is all about. And when was he sarcastic?

Of course he was treating women like sex objects. Do you wink, and make hand gestures at all the girls you pass on the street? They were all looking at him like he was a sad idiot. Which he was. And it's not that he didn't have the guts to do that as regular Peter. It's that he would never do that. Just like he would never try to kill a villain.

The rest of what you said is obvious.

His intentions were dark, and people weren't laughing at those. Except for the strange people, that thought hitting MJ was funny.

Those dark intentions were dwarfed by the incredibally campy way they were executed. How can anyone take it seriously with that kind of nonsense?

I thought you didn't like those parts. They were coupled with the dancing afterall.

I don't. Where did I say I did?

Can we stop debating, I'm getting tired of it.

Man, I was never forcing you to reply. You replied to me first.

I just had to justify Spectacular Spider-man's Eddie Brock to people yesterday; and they still don't like him. Ya'll know who you are.

Spectacular's Eddie Brock is leaps and bounds ahead of all the other versions. Especially the comic books.

[Silver Spider]

We don't need the symbiote to bring out Peter's goofy side.
Whether we need it or not, that's what the symbiote does. It amplifies ALL characteristics of it's hosts. But agression is supposed to be amplified the most, which it was.
Those dark intentions were dwarfed by the incredibally campy way they were executed. How can anyone take it seriously with that kind of nonsense?
I'll admit the first part was a little goofy, but not the dance with Gwen at the end.
I don't. Where did I say I did.
You were saying that that was a way to show his dark side.
Man, I was never forcing you to reply. You replied to me first.
When I reply, I don't have the intention to start a drawn out debate. I usually expect a short discussion. But you always how to find flaws in my statements and reply. What's wrong with you?:cwink::woot:
Spectacular's Eddie Brock is leaps and bounds ahead of all the other versions. Especially the comic books.
You want to help us explain that to some of those people?:yay:

[Joker]

Whether we need it or not, that's what the symbiote does. It amplifies ALL characteristics of it's hosts. But agression is supposed to be amplified the most, which it was.

That's what the movie's symbiote did. Which is why it was silly, and the most inferior version of the symbiote saga.

I'll admit the first part was a little goofy, but not the dance with Gwen at the end.

No, the Gwen dance was fine. It was all the shenanigans prior to it that was awful.

You were saying that that was a way to show his dark side.

It was. But they could have showed it in a much less campier manner than that. Like how he talked to Felicia in TAS in his slick suit.

When I reply, I don't have the intention to start a drawn out debate. I usually expect a short discussion. But you always how to find flaws in my statements and reply. What's wrong with you?:cwink::woot:

I don't know, I had this crazy notion to join this message board for discussion :oldrazz:

You want to help us explain that to some of those people?:yay:

Any time.

[Spider-ManHero12]

We don't need the symbiote to bring out Peter's goofy side. That's what regular Peter is all about. I'm not quite sure what you mean about regular Peter being "goofy". Can you explain to me what you mean by that? :huh:

[Spiderine]

uh, isn't almost everything that happens to spidey supposedly a coincident?
Well, I think the whole purpose of this thread was to rate each incarnation of the simbiote sagas in order from first to worst. And out of all the incarnations I felt SM3 had the worst because of the execution of the story and development and motivations of Eddie Brock and it often felt crammed and rushed. And then it climaxed with a tag team of Sandy and Venom. Something I felt was out of character because of the personal hatred Venom has for Spidey so it was quite awkward to join forces with another. I don't dislike SM3 as a whole as I thought it was entertaining but this version of the symbiote saga from start to finish did nothing for me.

[Silver Spider]

That's what the movie's symbiote did. Which is why it was silly, and the most inferior version of the symbiote saga.
What about the comic's symbiote, that did nothing to his emotions at all.

It was. But they could have showed it in a much less campier manner than that. Like how he talked to Felicia in TAS in his slick suit.

I've said, on other boards, that I don't feel the street scene was needed, but I'm okay with it.
I don't know, I had this crazy notion to join this message board for discussion :oldrazz:
Ah man, I was counter-sarcasmed.:woot:
Any time.
cool.:word:

[Joker]

I'm not quite sure what you mean about regular Peter being "goofy". Can you explain to me what you mean by that? :huh:

Always chasing his school bus, sending a bicycle tire flying out his apartment window, forgetting to take the lens cap off his camera before taking a picture, tripping over his own feet walking down the street......need I go on?

[Silver Spider]

Well, I think the whole purpose of this thread was to rate each incarnation of the simbiote sagas in order from first to worst. And out of all the incarnations I felt SM3 had the worst because of the execution of the story and development and motivations of Eddie Brock and it often felt crammed and rushed. And then it climaxed with a tag team of Sandy and Venom. Something I felt was out of character because of the personal hatred Venom has for Spidey so it was quite awkward to join forces with another. I don't dislike SM3 as a whole as I thought it was entertaining but this version of the symbiote saga from start to finish did nothing for me.
Personally the only thing I thought was out of character was the Sandman/Venom team up. I think the symbiote went farther than TAS in darkness, in his fights, which was good. I think Eddie's motivations would have been better, if they hadn't deleted that scene of him at the Stacy home. My favorite scene with Eddie's development, was the one in the Bugle.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Always chasing his school bus, sending a bicycle tire flying out his apartment window, forgetting to take the lens cap off his camera before taking a picture, tripping over his own feet walking down the street......need I go on? Oh, yeah, now I see what you mean. Thanks for explaining. :yay::up:

[Venom 1988]

The "fetch me milk. Make me cookies with nuts." line was just the Symbiote bringing out Peters' wild/goofy/dark side.

Dark =/= Goofy :o

[Arcturus]

Spectacular's Eddie Brock is leaps and bounds ahead of all the other versions. Especially the comic books.

Joker, I was keen on what you thought about the new Venom saga. I'm glad that you think it's good.

:up:

[Spiderine]

Personally the only thing I thought was out of character was the Sandman/Venom team up. I think the symbiote went farther than TAS in darkness, in his fights, which was good. I think Eddie's motivations would have been better, if they hadn't deleted that scene of him at the Stacy home. My favorite scene with Eddie's development, was the one in the Bugle.
Yes, and I can respect that. When I compare all aspects of SM3 version of the saga with other incarnations I just don't find anything about it that was better. To be honest I have always had a problem with the character of Eddie Brock. But from the moment Gopher graced the screen he was just repulsive and I kept saying to myself, Is this the guy thats going to be Venom? Here is the girl he is supposed to care so much for, yet when her life hanged in the balance he didn't seem all to concern. Then the scene where he sees Gwen and Peter together there just was no feeling there because of the lack of a real relationship with Gwen. Her father didn't even know the bomb. I tried to feel for him as a villain with this hatred but it seemed sorely missed because of the lack of development. And perhaps some scenes did get cut, but that doesn't matter because it wasn't in the final product. And as far as the symbiote's arrival, I think there were better ways that could have been written even without the whole dramatic space shuttle crashing. So those were just a few of my thoughts on that version. Not that I don't have problem with others, its just without a doubt the worst IMO.

[Silver Spider]

Yes, and I can respect that. When I compare all aspects of SM3 version of the saga with other incarnations I just don't find anything about it that was better. To be honest I have always had a problem with the character of Eddie Brock. But from the moment Gopher graced the screen he was just repulsive and I kept saying to myself, Is this the guy thats going to be Venom? Here is the girl he is supposed to care so much for, yet when her life hanged in the balance he didn't seem all to concern. Then the scene where he sees Gwen and Peter together there just was no feeling there because of the lack of a real relationship with Gwen. Her father didn't even know the bomb. I tried to feel for him as a villain with this hatred but it seemed sorely missed because of the lack of development. And perhaps some scenes did get cut, but that doesn't matter because it wasn't in the final product. And as far as the symbiote's arrival, I think there were better ways that could have been written even without the whole dramatic space shuttle crashing. So those were just a few of my thoughts on that version. Not that I don't have problem with others, its just without a doubt the worst IMO.
I was under the impression that Eddie was supposed to be a jerk. You're not supposed to feel that sorry for him; I mean he ruins his own life, but blames it on Spider-man/Peter, in every incarnation.

[Anwar]

Movie Eddie was a combo of Eddie Brock and Lance Bannon, who was essentially the "Anti-Parker" in the comics: Peter's photo-rival at the Bugle who was confident and assertive, but also an arrogant prick.

[Spiderine]

I was under the impression that Eddie was supposed to be a jerk. You're not supposed to feel that sorry for him; I mean he ruins his own life, but blames it on Spider-man/Peter, in every incarnation.
I don't think I was necessarily saying feeling sorry for him. Just feeling something for him in his purpose and motivations as a villain. Venom is not a typical villain in that he commits crimes, was a serial killer who was insane, a megamaniacal scientist, or wants power and glory or world domination. The Eddie Brock side of Venom should be someone with a lot of depth because there is an intensity to his hatred for Spidey/Peter. He could have still been a jerk and he would have to be to blame Spiderman for his failure. I felt there could have and should have been more to Gwen and Brock's relationship for us to feel this sense of lost and ultimate desire to kill someone. I felt that was missed and therefore the ultimate transformation to Venom felt rather empty in the end. His manipulation of the Spiderman photo was different from the sin-eater situation in the comics simply because not only is Peter defending "himself" from slander but he is competing with Eddie for the same damn job. Why would he expect Peter to keep that a secret? That Eddie just felt completly flat.

[Anwar]

It may have worked better if Harry secretly enlisted Eddie to take pictures of Spidey doing bad things (really all setups engineered by Harry) to ruin Spidey's reputation (Harry slowly strips Peter of everything, starting with his rep) and Eddie agrees because it furthers his career. Then when he's "Venomized" Peter figures it out (or just because he's mad) and somehow ruins Brock. So now Eddie has a grudge against both.

[Arcturus]

Okay;

I am a fan of each symbiote saga incarnation. Those who know me, already know my stance on the characters as I've rambled one to many times about Venom. So I'll post them up from my favorite to least favorite. The list isn't final, I'll wait until the SSM Symbiote saga is complete before adding it to the list. And so far, I absolutely love the new saga.

Venom saga (Spider-Man TAS)- I feel it takes the 616 saga, and puts a refreshing spin on it. And it doesn't have any of that Secret Wars rubbish.

616 Symbiote saga- 616 Venom is what got me into the Spider-Man mythos in the first place, and comic books in general. My favorite version of Venom was his earliest appearances.

Ultimate Spider-Man- This is an interesting take on the entire saga, and it also has a nice science experiment gone horribly wrong twist.

Spider-Man 3- This takes elements from the other incarnations and I thought it worked very well. Okay, I didn't like the dancing in the streets but other then that, I think the movie saga is fine.

[Grievous]

I'll find out which series had the best symbiote saga once I see the Venom ep tommorow.

[Silver Spider]

I'll find out which series had the best symbiote saga once I see the Venom ep tommorow.
Agreed.:word:

[Webhead2006]

Yea that is what i am waiting for. Once the episode airs then i will rate how i think each where.

[Webzpinner]

I loved the Dark Peter vs Harry fight, and the Dark Spidey vs Sandman fight, but the disco strut, the jazz club, and the telephone call scenes were so stupid. Rather than that, I'd have had Pete yell at Aunt May. Lift JJ up in the air and growl "shut the eff up." And the final black suit scene: I'd like to see Black Suit Spider-Man take on, and whup, an entire gang of bikers or something to really show the costume's influence. You think he was out of his mind, until you see Spidey look up towards the horizon, at the sunrise, and speed away back to the apartment, climb into bed, and the suit crawl off into the closet. Pete wakes up, tired and sore.
He looks towards his closet door, which is open, and notices the suit twitching.

THAT should have been in the SM3 movie. I loved how Raimi handled Brock. It's funny how the character Raimi hated most is the most faithful to the source.

[Grievous]

Yea that is what i am waiting for. Once the episode airs then i will rate how i think each where.
yeah because you can't rate the saga's without seeing all of them.

[Webhead2006]

Yea thats how i been since i seen this thread. We all shouldnt rate all the sagas untill the current one was completed. So after the finale i will then put up my ratings of all of them.

[Spiderine]

That's why i haven't officially rated it however I am somewhat pleased with what i have seen thus far in SSM. Should be a great finish to this arc.

[Webhead2006]

Well we finally got the conclusion to the SSM symboite/venom arch i thought it was pretty dam good. Very good episode and i loved the fights and all that. I will think about it for awhile and then i will do my ratings of the venom sagas.

[Webzpinner]

SSM was hands down the BEST VENOM SAGA EVER. Best fight scene in ANY Spider-Man cartoon. EXTREMELY violent, psychological, and emotional. Wow.

[Arcturus]

IMO, I feel that Spectacular Spider-Man is the best rendition of the symbiote saga. I already posted in this thread, so I would put SSM at the top of the list. I can't wait to see what season 2 brings, in the case of Venom.

[Webzpinner]

Major issues with TAS:

Venom wasn't fierce. He was just a glorified stalker. No rage. Brock seemed more like he just had the giggles than confronting all the ills in his life wrapped up in one red/blue spandexed package.

In SSM, Venom THRASHES Spidey. I was shocked at the brutality of the cartoon. This was more violent than the SM3 movie, and that was PG13!

My 3 year old was in awe, but even he was spooked by the mouth in the Venom tummy. That was shocking, but I saw it as an homage to the Marvel Vs Capcom games, where Venom turns his bodyparts into mouths.

[Anwar]

Well, of course they couldn't have Venom pound on Spidey in TAS. That was the series that wouldn't even let them use the word "Sinister!".

[Joker]

I remember before SSM, the symbiote saga in TAS could do no wrong. It was the best as far as the symbiote fans were concerned. The perfect depiction of the symbiote saga and Venom.

Funny how when something better comes along, and I mean better not new, makes you see the flaws.

[Arcturus]

It's good to see that you liked the SSM Venom saga, Joker.

:up:

[Grievous]

I think SSM has so far had the best symbiote saga.

[Venom.X]

OK...if there was anyone on SSH that had to give his input on the Venom episode of the series, it has to be me.

AS I've already assumed, I like TAS's version of the Alien Costume much more than SSM's. Up til this point (before the finale), I assumed that at the least, the showdown between Venom & Spidey on SSM would surpass TAS's in every way...I was wrong. Now, to clarify things right now, yes, I did like this episode, so that's a good thing. But I only liked it. The Sandman episode...the Lizard episode...the 2 Green Goblin episodes...the Doc Ock episode...Group Therapy...I loved those episodes. This one, I only liked it. It's not my least favorite, but I was left underwhelmed. And at 1st, I did think it had to do with my extremely high expectations. But after watching this episode 3 times (THREE TIMES), I don't think that's the case. Really, I just feel that this episode, being both Venom's limelight episode AND the season finale, AND the most wanted and hyped episode of the season, could have been better. TAS's Venom vs. Spidey episode blew everyone away, and that was only the late-middle of TAS's 1st season!

1st the good. Venom, not surprising, kicked the green, watery $h!t out of Spider-Man. And some of the tricks Venom did here really did it for me; the fact that Venom was using his symbiote to lash out tendrils (ie: tentacles)...yes, I know Venom can and has done this, but he never did it in TAS and he hardly ever did it in the comics. Seeing him take full advantage of this here really rocked! I mean, Eddie is wearing a living costume of aline slime...I think its safe to say we all expect to see him use the slimy costume in slimy ways, damn it! Another very, VERY new trick of Venom's was, of course, the ******ng MOUTH GROWING FROM HIS TORSO! God, that was intense! I actually raised an eyebrow from surprise when I saw that. Granted, I was hoping that when Spidey kept webbing Venom's face, he would have the symbiote (from his neck up) rip it off, revealing Eddie's face like in the comics, but this...THIS was better! Like a Biohazrd/Resident Evil mutant or something! Then we have Gwen. Gwen. Goddamn it, Gwen was the highlight here. She kissed Peter! She kissed him! On (in?) the mouth! Finally! Its about damn time! The fact that Venom went after her and not MJ was an uber-cool twist! You think you know what's gonna happen, and ya know what...it doesn't happen how you think! And instead of being dissapointed, you're thrown in a good way! Gwen!!

And as giddy as I was to see Gwen's role in this episode, I came for Venom. Not Gwen. Gwen's character here should have been the bonus, not the high point. Which brings me to the bad...not the bad, I take that back (I could just delet that statement, but no time to backtrack...I have more to type). Let's say...the disappointing. As much as I loved the fighting between Venom & Spidey, it was really just all physiacl (I'll get into this more later). I was thrilled to see that Venom's defeat here was a referrence to ASM's second Venom arc, with Spidey tricking the symbiote into leaving Brock, but wtf was up with Eddie being left there? Actually, wtf was up with him losing consciousness in the 1st place? The symbiote willing leaves him, and he just passes out...ok, I'll get over this one, and call it a personal nitpick, but still, Spidey leaves with the symbiote, and Eddie is...left there, passed out. Hmmm. Really. And I'm pretty sick and tired of the symbiote being treated like a minor threat. I'm going to blod this because no one else seems bothered by this fact, but when the symbiote, especailly after its hinted that its gone through some evolutions while with Peter, is easily confined to a bucket or a piece of a parade balloon, I have to seriously wonder how in the world could the symbiote be considered a threat to beging with. Then you have the fact that after Venom was defeated in this episode, the final scene overshadowed everything having to do with Venom. Seriously, when we look back on this episode, we will all be talking about Gwen's role more than Venom's, and the last mere four minutes will make the previous 20 minutes seem like filler. Filler! How on earth does a Venom episode lose out to the last few moments with Gwen? You'd think that Venom vs. Spidey would be the highlight of the season, but it loses out to Peter & Gwen's moment of closeness...and while Gwen's development should be a major feat and all, the Venom portions should have still had the focal power of the episode.

Really, Venom in TAS was menacing. He haunted Spidey everywhere. Peter would look at a billboard, and see Venom! Peter would track down MJ and run into Eddie, and as Pete tries to get MJ away from Eddie without telling her that she's in danger of him, Venom would casually follow them. MJ would turn around, and poof...no one! Then Peter would go home, and wouldn't ya know it...Eddie flipping Brock! "Hi, Aunt May! I'm a friend of Peter's", Eddie would say, knowing damn well that his visit here was to "subtly" (sarcasm) deliver a message of fear and intimidation. SSM didn't give us this. Venom would find Peter at his home and attack him, then linger around May's hospital room, and it didn't have the same impact. Seeing Peter try and keep his cool in front of May while Eddie was around was very much so worth seeing. Venom and Spidey fighting outside and near May's hospital room...didn't do it for me.

But the best part of TAS was the battle & chase. TAS did it flawlessly. SSM, not so much. Venom & Spidey went all over the city in TAS fighting each other (although that was because Spidey was trying to lure Venom into a trap), and we all remember what we got out of that...Truck driving Venom. Trucking...Driving...VENOM! The highest point in Spidey and Venom's battle in SSM was at the float parade...it was good...it wasn't Spider-Man: TAS good, nooooooo sir...but it was good. Yeah...

And don't get me started on the mental and physical torment TAS had Venom lash out that, quite frankly, SSM didn't do as well. Actually, it was like SSM chose to give us twice the physical beatdown and no psychological beatdown. Venom (SSM) never got into Spidey's head. That, more than anything, was the toughest bitter pill to swallow.

So, what was the point of this wall of text? To down SSM's "Intervention"? No, but over the past few weeks, I have openly addressed my opinions of TAS's "Alien Costume" saga being better than SSM's, and many people failed to see how the hell I could think so, and after this show arc has ended, and I've gone over the entire arc and compared SSM's four-parter to TAS's three-parter, I feel I was right. This show did it good...TAS did it better. TAS just gave us a better Peter Parker w/ the symbiote development story, and a better Eddie Brock; from bitter angry person to Venom story. Nothing felt rushed, and nothing was wasted. I can't say the same for SSM's Venom arc.

Oh, and one final note...a jab at everyone who has said that this show's interpretation of Eddie Brock and Venom has been the best on yet, comic, movie, or cartoon...really?! Are you serious?!! You guys honestly say this show's Venom and Eddie was better than TAS's Venom and Eddie?! How Eddie's issues were actually waaaay more believable? Where Venom was portrayed as the de facto Spidey-villain, hurting Spidey with brute force, and tormenting Spidey by getting inside his mind?! I mean, I did like this new take on Eddie (I really did. I mean, this Eddie Brock was very refreshing...and I couldn't be any more sincere. This Eddie was very good), but to say this show's Eddie/Venom is the undisputed best version ever...REALLY?!! Oh, ah well...

So...there it is. You can say that some people just aren't ever happy, but I claim to be an unbiased expert on all things Venom (take that bit of bigheadedness anyway you want), and I did watch this show with expecting great things from Venom, but I did not raise my expectations to unrealistic highs (they were high, but not impossibly high). The fact is, this episode was good. It didn't rock, it wasn't the best one ever (The Sandman episode, Green Goblin episodes, and Lizard episode for me, anyway, win that title), and it doesn't make TAS's version look like spit.

Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to go download this episode so I can watch it about three more times. I told you; I did like this episode, afterall. Really.

PS:, I plan on posting this in at least three related threads, so anyone who didn't like my take on this eppy...well, whatever.

[DACrowe]

Glad I watched the whole thing, the final act of SSM while good was nowhere near as epic or iconic as the Venom episode of TAS.

1. TAS
2. SSM
3. SM3
4. Comics
4. Ultimate

[Silver Spider]

And I'm pretty sick and tired of the symbiote being treated like a minor threat. I'm going to blod this because no one else seems bothered by this fact, but when the symbiote, especailly after its hinted that its gone through some evolutions while with Peter, is easily confined to a bucket or a piece of a parade balloon, I have to seriously wonder how in the world could the symbiote be considered a threat to beging with.
The symbiote was severey weakened in those two situations. You could also ask, why was Spider-man able to simply web the symbiote to the shuttle in TAS; when it would normally be able to slither through the webbing.

Really, Venom in TAS was menacing. He haunted Spidey everywhere. Peter would look at a billboard, and see Venom! Peter would track down MJ and run into Eddie, and as Pete tries to get MJ away from Eddie without telling her that she's in danger of him, Venom would casually follow them. MJ would turn around, and poof...no one! Then Peter would go home, and wouldn't ya know it...Eddie flipping Brock! "Hi, Aunt May! I'm a friend of Peter's", Eddie would say, knowing damn well that his visit here was to "subtly" (sarcasm) deliver a message of fear and intimidation. SSM didn't give us this. Venom would find Peter at his home and attack him, then linger around May's hospital room, and it didn't have the same impact. Seeing Peter try and keep his cool in front of May while Eddie was around was very much so worth seeing. Venom and Spidey fighting outside and near May's hospital room...didn't do it for me.
I think they were both done very well, in the subject of torture. In TAS he was just following Peter around, and torturing him with the thought of if he would do anything or not. In SSM he tries to attack him in a more brutal way, by striking at the ones, Peter loves. That made him a little more Green Goblin, which was cool.

And don't get me started on the mental and physical torment TAS had Venom lash out that, quite frankly, SSM didn't do as well. Actually, it was like SSM chose to give us twice the physical beatdown and no psychological beatdown. Venom (SSM) never got into Spidey's head. That, more than anything, was the toughest bitter pill to swallow.
Venom never really got in Pete's head the right way. I mean he would see Venom around, but that was just hullucinations. Attacking Peter's heart was a total pschycological/emotional beatdown. As loosely mentioned above, why do you think the Green Goblin took Gwen Stacy to the bridge, cause he was bored?

I too, feel that both sagas were very good, but I think SSM's is better.

[Webhead2006]

Yea i am going to do my ratings for the sagas soon i need to think things over and a look at all sides of things.

[Sarcastic Fan]

You can discuss the plots all you want, those are debatable, but you can't say TAS had better action. I just watched the TAS Venom episode on YouTube and, well... Venom and Spidey never even laid a hand on each other. There was nothing violent in that episode.

[sauronthegreat]

And all those wrestling moves venom did were horrible. Not to mention the scene with Venom in a truck... that was funny and pathetic.
Venom was handled OK in Spectacular Spider-Man, and the fact I really didn't like is that this episode was during a day... it just doesn't fit with Venom, but it was only his introduction episode. And I am glad that Green Goblin was established as a bigger threat, with the potential yet to become Spidey's arch enemy.

[sauronthegreat]

I was referring to TAS Venom.

[Anwar]

You can discuss the plots all you want, those are debatable, but you can't say TAS had better action. I just watched the TAS Venom episode on YouTube and, well... Venom and Spidey never even laid a hand on each other. There was nothing violent in that episode.

Well, in the first fight after Venom takes out Shocker and Rhino Venom does punch him in mid-air and then put him into a headlock.

[crd1682]

What's up with the guys who say they can't understand why Spidey and Venom fought in the daytime? In the comics, most of their battles took place during the day. The two issues that Nature v. Nurture were bases on, ASM #317 and #374, also had battles fought during the day.

You guys must have TAS and SM3-itis.

[Anwar]

They fought during the day in TAS as well, in the "Venom Returns" story.

[Spider-ManHero12]

I didn't go into my detail with why I think TSSMs' rendition of the Symbiote saga is the best, so here it goes.

The comic nook Venom irgin has always been favorite because it's the original origin of Venom, even though it's not the greatest. There are some unrealistic things about the comic book origin, but there is still alot of good things about it. Brock being humiliated by Spidey, or he supposedly was in his mind atleast. It's still very interesting if you ask me.

Then comes TAS version, which defenitely showed that there could be more added to the origin story of Venom. A guy loses everything such as his job, his apartment, etc, so he's very desperate. Is that a great origin story? It's a very good one.

Then comes Spider-Man 3s' origin, which, if you ask me, is a great rendition because it shows the rise and fall of the Brock. The rise and fall of a guy who was to confident in himself and basically cheated his way into becoming a great photographer. However, when Peter proved him wrong, Brock basically lost everything. He supposedly lost his "girl", though, she never really was his girl to being with, but she was in Brocks' mind. He then asks god to kill Peter parker, which shows how desperate and sad he is, so he basically gets a gift from god with the Symbiote attaching to him and basically holding him up in the air in a god like position.

Now, The Spectacular Spider-Mans' rendition of Eddie Brock/Venoms' origin story shows that Brocks' mind is all there. He is mentally unstable and it shows, especially from "Natural Selection" and on. He starts to basically hate Peter for Peter always taking pictures of the incidents instead of helping out. That's Peters' job though, and that's what Peter needs to do. So, slowsly but surely, Brock starts to lose it and begins to turn against Peter and in "Intervention", Brock lost his whole job, leaving him with nothing. He was probably passionate about his job, earned a great amunt of money, but now that whent all the way down the drain. Then, the Symbiote that is locked up begins to act like a magnet to Brock. Brock puts his hand on the cell (or chamber) and the Symbiote forms a hand shape against Brocks'. Then Venom comes after Spdiey and it's a huge brawl. To top it all off, we got to see the Symbiote actually tlaking ot Brock and showing him all the stuff Peter has done.

So, those are some of the reasons I think the Symbiote rendition in TSSM is the best.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Edit-double post

[Webhead2006]

Yea i still havent decided on my ratings for all the different venom sagas but each have their good points and their bad points.

[Silver Spider]

I didn't go into my detail with why I think TSSMs' rendition of the Symbiote saga is the best, so here it goes.

The comic nook Venom irgin has always been favorite because it's the original origin of Venom, even though it's not the greatest. There are some unrealistic things about the comic book origin, but there is still alot of good things about it. Brock being humiliated by Spidey, or he supposedly was in his mind atleast. It's still very interesting if you ask me.

Then comes TAS version, which defenitely showed that there could be more added to the origin story of Venom. A guy loses everything such as his job, his apartment, etc, so he's very desperate. Is that a great origin story? It's a very good one.

Then comes Spider-Man 3s' origin, which, if you ask me, is a great rendition because it shows the rise and fall of the Brock. The rise and fall of a guy who was to confident in himself and basically cheated his way into becoming a great photographer. However, when Peter proved him wrong, Brock basically lost everything. He supposedly lost his "girl", though, she never really was his girl to being with, but she was in Brocks' mind. He then asks god to kill Peter parker, which shows how desperate and sad he is, so he basically gets a gift from god with the Symbiote attaching to him and basically holding him up in the air in a god like position.

Now, The Spectacular Spider-Mans' rendition of Eddie Brock/Venoms' origin story shows that Brocks' mind is all there. He is mentally unstable and it shows, especially from "Natural Selection" and on. He starts to basically hate Peter for Peter always taking pictures of the incidents instead of helping out. That's Peters' job though, and that's what Peter needs to do. So, slowsly but surely, Brock starts to lose it and begins to turn against Peter and in "Intervention", Brock lost his whole job, leaving him with nothing. He was probably passionate about his job, earned a great amunt of money, but now that whent all the way down the drain. Then, the Symbiote that is locked up begins to act like a magnet to Brock. Brock puts his hand on the cell (or chamber) and the Symbiote forms a hand shape against Brocks'. Then Venom comes after Spdiey and it's a huge brawl. To top it all off, we got to see the Symbiote actually tlaking ot Brock and showing him all the stuff Peter has done.

So, those are some of the reasons I think the Symbiote rendition in TSSM is the best.
Great post. :word::up:

[DACrowe]

You can discuss the plots all you want, those are debatable, but you can't say TAS had better action. I just watched the TAS Venom episode on YouTube and, well... Venom and Spidey never even laid a hand on each other. There was nothing violent in that episode.

You're right the action was visually superior in SSM (at least the fight outside of the hospital), but I thought Peter being scared ****less of Venom in TAS when he got his ass webbed up and unmasked ontop of the Daily Bugle was far more satisfying. The way Brock hinted to kill May and MJ was very effective, moreso than kidnapping Gwen in SSM. And while the fight was more brutal in SSM, Peter never got desperate. Even at the end his attitude was, "Well, I'll just outsmart Venom like so," and while it was nice to see the nod to my favorite Venom story (ASM #319, I believe), the ending was a rehash of the episode before. He gets the symbiote on him and defeats it the same exact damn way he did in the last episode which was more effective the first time. He then fails to kill it again and leaves Brock alone, just begging for a rematch.

Peter's final fight may not have had as many punches thrown in TAS, but Spidey was desperate and at the end of his ropes being cleanly whopped on their last several encounters by Venom. He outsmarted Venom and was still scared ****less. His sending the symbiote back into space was cooler and left Brock for authorities and was still worried about Venom at the end of the episode.
Also not only was Brock trying to kill Gwen kind of lame (I really think it should have been MJ with Gwen trying to save her. Simply because Brock trying to kill Gwen made little sense) and she is so casually cool about her childhood friend trying to murder her later in the episode and doesn't even mention "Our best buddy Eddie tried to kill me, Pete" at the end.

I mean it was a good episode and had great action, but there have been better episodes and this was the weakest episode of the show's symbiote saga, instead of the climactic rush the final one in TAS was.

Also, Venom trying to work for Tombstone at the beginning while a visual nod to SM3 (in one of Venom fans' least favorite scenes :p ) made even less sense than that movie. He bonds to kill Peter and his first desire should be to go **** with Peter and kill him immediately and then worry about money. But him going to get a job with Tombstone and then having to ask for Tombstone's permission to kill Spidey was lame. He should have done that on his own accord and while a cool scene for Tombstone, it made Venom look like a tool. And people complain about SM3 on that one...

[Spiderine]

I didn't think Venom was asking Tombstone for permission or approval to kill Spiderman as Venom had every intention of doing what he wanted anyways. I think since Venom was going to do something he was going to enjoy why not get paid for it at the same time. Kill Spiderman and make money at the same time. Sound financial plan.

[AIRWOLF]

You can discuss the plots all you want, those are debatable, but you can't say TAS had better action. I just watched the TAS Venom episode on YouTube and, well... Venom and Spidey never even laid a hand on each other. There was nothing violent in that episode.

Remember violence was restricted back then so you can't really compare SSM and TAS in all fairness. TAS did a terrific job with Venom as well, with all their restrictions. We really got a sense of how threatened Peter felt by Venom.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Great post. :word::up: Thanks. :word::yay:

[CaptainCanada]

In terms of the interactions between Peter and the symbiote, TAS and SSM both do quite well; SSM, fitting changes in storytelling style, is a bit more subtle about it (though, by the same token, 'Dark Peter' really just doesn't seem that bad, which I think is a minor problem).

However, the second part of the symbiote saga is Eddie Brock, and TAS wins hands-down here; SSM Eddie Brock is quite literally the only thing in the first season that doesn't work, but it's a spectacular misfire at that. The last three episodes completely derail the character built up in the first ten, and ultimately he just collapses under his own nonsensical behaviour.

[red hood 4]

Why? i havnt seen it yet

[Spec Spider-Man]

TAS for me.

[Chris Wallace]

All things considered I give it to Spectacular. Here we got the best of everything; the parasitic nature of the symbiote, the personality changes, the morphing abilities, the benefits of keeping it vs. the cost to his personal life, & just enough elements from the comics. It was pretty much perfect.

[November Rain]

There are always three or four parts to consider with a symbiote saga,

the effects of the symbiote on spiderman
eddie brock's initial motivatioin
venom's total motivation

the problem with spectacular is that it didn't bring anything unique to the table, ultimate spidey, 616 and tas all took respectively different takes and while the movie made peter significantly more evil, itself and spectacular rehashed but didn't do enough of stuff to make it work.

it had a lil of everything but not enough to make it coherent. I mean spidey doesn't even realise he doesn't need webbing till group theraphy nor does the spiderman character show any increased aggravation (instead being mildly shown as pete).

as for the venom character, considering all his problems were over before he got the symbiote, he really had no reason to take it.

[Chris Wallace]

I disagree. I felt the elements all meshed best on Spectacular.
And Eddie's problems were ALL pretty much over by the time Peter got rid of the suit. His motivations were all pretty weak.
Spidey captured a serial killer & inadvertantly debunked a news story that Eddie printed.
Eddie framed Spidey & Spidey cleared his name.
Peter set out to destroy the end result of a failed experiment (And in that one, Eddie just TOOK the suit on. It didn't force itself on him or even offer itself to him. He just said hey, let's see what this thing can do for me.)
Eddie framed Spidey using a photo that Peter had taken, & Peter exposed him.
These were all cases of Brock not taking responsibility for his own actions & projecting his own failings onto Spider-Man.
At least this time around, Eddie's beef with Peter had some semblance of a foundation. He felt betrayed by a longtime friend, & he could actually see where Spidey had hurt him by trying to destroy the symbiote.

[Anwar]

But those "betrayals" weren't real betrayals if you think about it: Eddie got over the Lizard thing, he'd probably have found out from MJ that her and Peter was May's idea (so Eddie can't be mad over that anymore), and the symbiote theft wouldn't have been prevented even if Peter did call the cops.

[Spider-Man '92]

I liked both the comic's and TAS sagas. They're fairly similar, but have unique differences.

[Chris Wallace]

But those "betrayals" weren't real betrayals if you think about it: Eddie got over the Lizard thing, he'd probably have found out from MJ that her and Peter was May's idea (so Eddie can't be mad over that anymore), and the symbiote theft wouldn't have been prevented even if Peter did call the cops.

I never said the betrayals were real. But they felt real to Brock. And the symbiote struck at the moment when he was most vulnerable. I just think that this motivation was a little more plausible, since this time he didn't bring it on himself.

[Anwar]

Yeah he did, he could've just left the symbiote in the tank and called the Connors. Presto, his job is secure and he gets a chance at fame for studying it.

[MrShifty]

SHOCKER! I'LL CHASE YOU TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lmao

[MrShifty]

I was thinking, in spider-man 3,when Eddie stole Pete's photo (which is a bad thing to do) and framed spider-man, is he much worse than Pete. I mean at the beginning, Eddie got his photos of spider-man fair and square, Pete is Spider-Man so he pretty much cheats all the time to get his photos. So was Eddie that much of bad guy (cocky and arrogant albeit but not evil) in the beginning?

[Spider-ManHero12]

SHOCKER! I'LL CHASE YOU TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lmao Lol, still a very cool line. :up:

[Spider-Man '92]

SHOCKER! I'LL CHASE YOU TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



lmao

I love that moment! Especially just before it, when Spidey climbs out of the rubbel:

"Surprised Shocker? Let me tell it to you straight: I . . . am . . . INVINCIBLE!"

[Spider-ManHero12]

I love that moment! Especially just before it, when Spidey climbs out of the rubbel:

"Surprised Shocker? Let me tell it to you straight: I . . . am . . . INVINCIBLE!" That is indeed one of the best lines black suit Spidey said in the Symbiote storyline.

[Anwar]

I liked

"You'll pay for this!"

"The check's in the mail baby!"

Better.

[Silver Spider]

One of the lines that stood out to me, when I was little, was, "Come on, you're supposed to be the good guy; you can't do this."

[Spider-ManHero12]

One of the lines that stood out to me, when I was little, was, "Come on, you're supposed to be the good guy; you can't do this." That line truly was intense because it showed how the Symbiote is affecting Spidey.

[Sarcastic Fan]

I love that moment! Especially just before it, when Spidey climbs out of the rubbel:

"Surprised Shocker? Let me tell it to you straight: I . . . am . . . INVINCIBLE!"

Really? I thought both lines were over the top and very poorly delivered.

[Chris Wallace]

Yeah he did, he could've just left the symbiote in the tank and called the Connors. Presto, his job is secure and he gets a chance at fame for studying it.

He thought it was dead. And he didn't release it; it got out on its own. He hadn't had a chance to call anybody when "Symbi" called out to him.
And that wasn't what I meant anyway. He didn't bring on himself the slights that he felt Peter had inflicted on him.

[Spider-Man '92]

One of the lines that stood out to me, when I was little, was, "Come on, you're supposed to be the good guy; you can't do this."
I like the following moment when he says:

"Why not? I Have the power!" (I'm pretty positive that's what he says)

Even more progression on his transformation. Black Spidey in the 90's was awesome! :)

[Anwar]

Really? I thought both lines were over the top and very poorly delivered.

Yeah, but you hate TAS as a whole.

[Anwar]

He thought it was dead. And he didn't release it; it got out on its own. He hadn't had a chance to call anybody when "Symbi" called out to him.
And that wasn't what I meant anyway. He didn't bring on himself the slights that he felt Peter had inflicted on him.

He clearly saw it as alive, and he WAS the one who let it out. And he could have ignored the call of the symbiote and called Connors up instead.

He wasn't affected by Peter's actions at all aside from the symbiote theft, and he was wrong to blame Peter for that anyways (calling the cops wouldn't have changed anything). The Lizard thing didn't hurt Brock or his career, and boo-hoo Peter went with a girl his Aunt set him up with, major betrayal...

[russttrombone]

He clearly saw it as alive, and he WAS the one who let it out. And he could have ignored the call of the symbiote and called Connors up instead.


You're arguing "could haves" in a world where someone gains powers by getting bitten by a genetically modified spider?

I can give you a million "could have's" for why the whole idea of Spider-Man should have never happened, and a million more for each villain.

Perhaps you've lived in a sheltered bubble all your life, but not all people are as rational or clear thinking as you apparently expect them to be. It's pretty obvious Eddie has abandonment issues - and since he's grown up with no one but himself - he's probably very (surprise!) self-centered. Ever been around really self centered people? Look up "narcissistic personality." It's a pretty interesting read. I know people like him (in my own family no less) - in my frame of reference, his motivation rings true. Just because you may not personally know anyone like him as depicted does not mean that they don't exist.

[Silver Spider]

Perhaps you've lived in a sheltered bubble all your life, but not all people are as rational or clear thinking as you apparently expect them to be. It's pretty obvious Eddie has abandonment issues - and since he's grown up with no one but himself - he's probably very (surprise!) self-centered. Ever been around really self centered people? Look up "narcissistic personality." It's a pretty interesting read. I know people like him (in my own family no less) - in my frame of reference, his motivation rings true. Just because you may not personally know anyone like him as depicted does not mean that they don't exist.
Exactly. Rjecting the symbiote's call, is easier said then done. I mean, you could tell it was manipulating him, and you can't just say no to seduction, unless you have a strong will.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Exactly. Rjecting the symbiote's call, is easier said then done. I mean, you could tell it was manipulating him, and you can't just say no to seduction, unless you have a strong will. Indeed, and I really think peter did have very strong will power, but defenitely not at first when he got the Symbiote.

[November Rain]

Exactly. Rjecting the symbiote's call, is easier said then done. I mean, you could tell it was manipulating him, and you can't just say no to seduction, unless you have a strong will.
If the symbiote is manipulating him on that high a level, then it makes their bond redundant and the symbiote could have formed venom with any real dude.

all it makes eddie is a pawn which is what he turned out to be when the symbiote left him at a moment's notice. He was more upset with leaving the symbiote instead of being angry it wasn't going to destroy their mutual enemy like was originally promised.

[November Rain]

Indeed, and I really think peter did have very strong will power, but defenitely not at first when he got the Symbiote.
Spidey's will power was actually too strong, parker's always been **** scared of joining with the symbiote again incase he couldn't control it, parker has emotional issues with regards to the symbiote and that's supposed to add to venom's psychological arsenal against him.

This spidey has nothing to worry about because he knows he can outtrick venom, deal with psychological taunts and never be tainted by the symbiote's effects ever again. That's like chopping off doc ock's arms, it's a complete emasculation of his so called greatest nemesis.

[Silver Spider]

If the symbiote is manipulating him on that high a level, then it makes their bond redundant and the symbiote could have formed venom with any real dude.

all it makes eddie is a pawn which is what he turned out to be when the symbiote left him at a moment's notice. He was more upset with leaving the symbiote instead of being angry it wasn't going to destroy their mutual enemy like was originally promised.
I didn't mean manipulate, as in controll Eddie into doing whatever it wants. I meant manipulate his emotions, and seduce him with the power to do what they both desire.
Spidey's will power was actually too strong, parker's always been **** scared of joining with the symbiote again incase he couldn't control it, parker has emotional issues with regards to the symbiote and that's supposed to add to venom's psychological arsenal against him.

This spidey has nothing to worry about because he knows he can outtrick venom, deal with psychological taunts and never be tainted by the symbiote's effects ever again. That's like chopping off doc ock's arms, it's a complete emasculation of his so called greatest nemesis.
Well, I might give you that. But Peter was clearly bracing himself for the symbiote when it bonded back onto him. So maybe the symbiote will be able to effect him in times of weakness.

[Sarcastic Fan]

Perhaps you've lived in a sheltered bubble all your life, but not all people are as rational or clear thinking as you apparently expect them to be. It's pretty obvious Eddie has abandonment issues - and since he's grown up with no one but himself - he's probably very (surprise!) self-centered. Ever been around really self centered people? Look up "narcissistic personality." It's a pretty interesting read. I know people like him (in my own family no less) - in my frame of reference, his motivation rings true. Just because you may not personally know anyone like him as depicted does not mean that they don't exist.


THANK YOU!!!!!!

[Anwar]

Too bad Eddie is apparently bipolar as well, which gave the crew the excuse of having him immediately act nutty as soon as it was convenient.

[Silver Spider]

Too bad Eddie is apparently bipolar as well, which gave the crew the excuse of having him immediately act nutty as soon as it was convenient.
He's not bipolar, he has suppressed anger issues. According to Venom, he's seems to have always been jealous of Peter having Aunt May, and Uncle Ben. On top of that, now Peter seems to have everything going his way, and, in Eddie's point of view, doesn't seemto care about the people he steps on, to keep things good for him.

[Anwar]

Yeah, that one line about Eddie being alone really didn't do anything for me. It just seemed like some random thing they threw in there to justify his unstable behavior instead of SHOWING us how Eddie felt he was alone or mentioning earlier how he was at an orphanage or something until he was old enough.

And they still weren't clear on the symbiote deliberately not giving Brock all of Peter's memories so we still don't know if he knew everything and if he just didn't care.

[Silver Spider]

Yeah, that one line about Eddie being alone really didn't do anything for me. It just seemed like some random thing they threw in there to justify his unstable behavior instead of SHOWING us how Eddie felt he was alone or mentioning earlier how he was at an orphanage or something until he was old enough.
This was the start of his torment. That variable can easily be developed in the next season. That could've been their intention the whole time, or you no, not.

[russttrombone]

Yeah, that one line about Eddie being alone really didn't do anything for me. It just seemed like some random thing they threw in there to justify his unstable behavior instead of SHOWING us how Eddie felt he was alone or mentioning earlier how he was at an orphanage or something until he was old enough.

Maybe that would be acceptable for the "Venomous Venom" Animated Series, but this is still a show about Spider Man, and what they included was more than sufficient for a character in a show primarily about Peter/Spidey.

And they still weren't clear on the symbiote deliberately not giving Brock all of Peter's memories so we still don't know if he knew everything and if he just didn't care.

I thought that was pretty obvious. The first montage is quite positive and shows all of the happy shiny people holding hands moments in Peter's life, the second montage that Eddie sees is all shots where Peter appear to be doing the wrong thing and how Eddie sees it affecting people - the tone of the second montage is much more negative.

Sure there's another explanation for Peter's actions in the big picture, but virtually every dramatic story has a huge element of misunderstanding.

[Anwar]

TAS did a fine job of showing why Brock hated Spidey without making it seem the "Eddie Brock show", they did a fine job showing why Harry feels lousy about his dad and where his issues came from but it seems they didn't bother with Brock beyond one line about "I'm ALONE!".

[Sarcastic Fan]

TAS did a fine job of showing why Brock hated Spidey without making it seem the "Eddie Brock show", they did a fine job showing why Harry feels lousy about his dad and where his issues came from but it seems they didn't bother with Brock beyond one line about "I'm ALONE!".

Of course, they did it by making Brock a one dimensional character who had nothing to him besides being a sleezy reporter who hated Spider-Man.

[Anwar]

Yeah, and it still worked out better than 616, Ultimate and what they tried with SSM. All IMO of course.

See, I don't particularly like Brock or Venom as he has been portrayed in any medium. I still think Harry would have been a better choice to give the symbiote to, but I think that this attempt at making Brock "deeper" or more "meaningful" didn't work out.

[November Rain]

Of course, they did it by making Brock a one dimensional character who had nothing to him besides being a sleezy reporter who hated Spider-Man.
nah, they did it by having spiderman directly responsible for people finding out that he was actually a sleezy slimebag and not really giving two hoots about doing it. Spiderman systematically took everything away from him he held dear, his job(s) (three times), reputation, apartment, health and he did it over an extended period that didn't seem unnatural.

and brock's venom wasn't one sided what so ever, he taunted parker because both himself and the symbiote had a general reason to hate him even though they found each other by coincidence.

He went after his girl, his aunt, his spiderman reputation at work, he stalked him and made him unstable and completley paranoid, he chased him across a city. He knew exactly what buttons to press to get pete and spidey wound up.

although always somewhat of a sleaze, tas' brock did show some diversity with his methods and overall motivation.

[Spider-Man '92]

One thing I don't get is why Peter is so calm after defeating Venom. I mean, Eddie still knows his secrets right? Will he use them against him in the future? Why should Peter be relaxed at this point?

[Anwar]

Because apparently he thought that it was 100% the symbiote in control and not Eddie at all so he thinks Eddie will be an okay guy without the symbiote.

Or they just don't like Venom (like most 60s-80s Spidey fans) and wanted him done and out of the way as soon as they could.

[DACrowe]

Nah. They wouldn't give Brock so much build up if they didn't like him. They just made him too much Harry and not enough...well TAS did it best. But they're using Venom again next season. Still, I do think they prefer the classic baddies, as most writers seem to.

[Anwar]

Beh, I don't see why they don't just make Harry into Venom (in the cartoons and comics). He's a better Anti-Parker and it would make his revenge sweeter in that he's defeated peter using Peter's own powers instead of relying on his father's legacy.

[Webhead2006]

Who knows why they never thought of doing that.

[Spider-Man '92]

Beh, I don't see why they don't just make Harry into Venom (in the cartoons and comics). He's a better Anti-Parker and it would make his revenge sweeter in that he's defeated peter using Peter's own powers instead of relying on his father's legacy.
I see your points, but after all these years it'd just be a bastardization to the comics. Plus, I enjoy the Goblin Legacy much better.

[Anwar]

Not really, just have Brock lose the symbiote after his first story and have Harry find it later on and he becomes Venom for a while so we can have a Venom that's competent and interesting. Then when he's beaten it can go back to Brock.

[Spider-Man '92]

It still doesn't seem right. I had nothing wrong with Venom in this series, his story should have been a two-parter, that's all. Harry as Venom isn't my idea of a good idea.

[Anwar]

I just don't like Brock as a char, not even this one. I liked what they tried to do with Brock in SM3 but I still don't like him.

For a char like Venom Harry is the ideal choice. Especially the Harry we saw in the last few JM DeMattis stories.

[Chris Wallace]

Uh-uh. That would be even worse than when they made Gargan Venom. I'm not a big Venom fan in general, I think he's highly overrated. But making the identity, the persona interchangeable was a really bad move.

[Silver Spider]

I love Venom, and he's my personal favorite Spider-man villain; but he is pretty overrated. Some people like him for the wrong reasons, and it's embarassing to the real Venom fans.

[Anwar]

Uh-uh. That would be even worse than when they made Gargan Venom. I'm not a big Venom fan in general, I think he's highly overrated. But making the identity, the persona interchangeable was a really bad move.

It was what Venom's creator had always planned: Brock gets killed and the symbiote would go around bonding to other people and some of Spidey's other villains to continue menacing Spidey.

I just think if they made Harry into Venom then it would make him more separate from his father as a villain so he wouldn't always have the "He's not as good as Norman" comparison, and they could even co-exist as villains.