The New Catwoman Casting Thread

[batboy99]

I could only see her as Lana Lang. But in general, I do adore her so. That Borat's a lucky S.O.B.


http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9246/75216525.jpg
I think shes a cutie, but I just dont see her fitting into any superhero movies. Maybe she would work as Lana though.

I hate the suggestion of her as Ivy though. When I picture Ivy, I picture this uber hot sex bomb, and though Isla is adorable, shes definetly not Ivy.

[KalMart]

Get Malin Ackerman as Poison Ivy.


I once had this dream where I was watching Isla Fisher and Christina Ricci play Twister in French Maid outfits...and there were bubbles....lots of bubbles........but that's another story....

[batboy99]

Id rather not have someone who was already in a comic book movie.

Emily Blunt or Christina Hendricks are the best choices for Ivy IMO.

[Alex Logan]

I think it's fair to say you don't want them because they are black. It's not racist. It's just because Selina Kyle isn't black.

Thank you.

[WeaponXProject]

if we're going to go that route, i'd rather see rosario dawson.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x41/crononaut/mailedD8.jpg

I support this as well.

[Two-Face]

I don't mind Rasio Dawson at all, I don't see it as a problem.

[Cunning Stunts]

I think it's fair to say you don't want them because they are black. It's not racist. It's just because Selina Kyle isn't black.

Racist. :o

I honestly don't see the big deal. Who cares if she's black? Her skin color really isn't part of her character.

Besides, Rosario isn't even fully black. She's a mixture of a ton of different heritages (including white and hispanic). I think she'd be good for the role.

(Eva Green would be better :cmad:)

[Ace of Knaves]

:hehe: I wouldn't have a problem with Rosario, I think she is a decent actress.

But I'm just saying it's not racist because you don't want a black person playing a white person from the comics.

(Winona Ryder would be even better) :D

[Cunning Stunts]

Communist!

[Ace of Knaves]

:hehe:

[Crook]

I honestly don't see the big deal. Who cares if she's black? Her skin color really isn't part of her character.

Depends how you look at it. When you're referring to iconic characters, can we really just focus on their personality traits? Aren't their appearances just as valid?

If not, then accessories such as the Batmobile, Superman's cape, and Wonder Woman's breast plate are easily disposable. Since technically, they're not "part of their characters".

[Johnny Drama]

No Crook, Race is different because people here are pretending to be PC.

[Crook]

Perhaps. But I don't mind addressing it directly. I've got proof of ex-gf's just in case someone wants to pull the race card on me. :o

[Ace of Knaves]

Pretending to be PC?

[Laderlappen]

I think its a little important that the character that playes the character looks somewhat like the character. I wouldnt want a black batman or an asian Harvey Dent. It has nothing to do with racism.
Honestly I wouldnt want Rosario even if the character was black.

[Crook]

Weren't you in favor of a black Harvey or Riddler? Or maybe I'm mistaking you for someone else. :huh:

[Johnny Drama]

Pretending to be PC?

Not you, good sir :o

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Is there anything funnier than a race debate?

I'm just going to say that I didn't think that Catwoman was a bad movie because Halle Berry is (half) black and she wasn't wrong for the role because she was black. The movie was bad because the script and director were terrible and Berry is too cutesy for Catwoman.

That being said I'm not going to call somebody racist for perfering a white women be Catwoman in the next Batman movie if Nolan and crew decide to use the character.

I don't dislike Dawson but she is overmentioned on these boards and Patton is too cutesy for Catwoman.

If I were choosing a black chick I would choose Naomie Harris.

[CaptainClown]

I see i have dropped in on the catwoman thread where it is going through the black cycle. Typically triggered by Rosario Dawson. Glad this hasn't changed.

[Laderlappen]

Weren't you in favor of a black Harvey or Riddler? Or maybe I'm mistaking you for someone else. :huh:No you must be misstaken.

[KalMart]

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6925/se6280407.jpghttp://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3866/20roselynsanchez.jpg

How about Roselyn Sanchez for Catwoman?

[Alex Logan]

Racist. :o

I honestly don't see the big deal. Who cares if she's black? Her skin color really isn't part of her character.

Besides, Rosario isn't even fully black. She's a mixture of a ton of different heritages (including white and hispanic). I think she'd be good for the role.

(Eva Green would be better :cmad:)

There's always one in the bunch.

And you couldn't be more wrong.

[Alex Logan]

I think its a little important that the character that playes the character looks somewhat like the character. I wouldnt want a black batman or an asian Harvey Dent. It has nothing to do with racism.
Honestly I wouldnt want Rosario even if the character was black.

Exactly.

[The Major]

I'm just going to say that I didn't think that Catwoman was a bad movie because Halle Berry is (half) black and she wasn't wrong for the role because she was black. The movie was bad because the script and director were terrible and Berry is too cutesy for Catwoman.

Catwoman wasn't exactly Halle's best performance. Nor is she an innocent bystander behind the scenes. IIRC she is an actress with power in Hollywood. She had no problem using it to make a ****** movie.

[The Major]

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6925/se6280407.jpghttp://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3866/20roselynsanchez.jpg

How about Roselyn Sanchez for Catwoman?
She'd make a good Renee Montoya.

[Cunning Stunts]

For starters, I was kidding by calling him a racist. Ace is my boy, and he knows I don't find him racist for thinking that.

Secondly, I just don't see the skin color as being representative of the character. Superman's cape, Wonder Woman's breast plate, etc. are trademarks of the character (I was not referring to personality). I'm not opposed to keeping Catwoman white, even for the sake of the fact that she's white in the comics (hell, my top choices for her are all white), but I just think it's hilarious that someone mentions a black Catwoman and everyone else JUMPS to say the character shouldn't be black because he/she isn't in the comics.

I'm not "pro-black" or "pro-ethnicity change", but I'm not opposed to the idea of a black black or hispanic woman playing Catwoman.

[Crook]

Secondly, I just don't see the skin color as being representative of the character. Superman's cape, Wonder Woman's breast plate, etc. are trademarks of the character (I was not referring to personality).
How isn't it? Conceivably, removing any of those "trademarks" would immediately illicit some sort of response in the vein of "something's changed here", right? You change the race or skin color of those characters and you'd get the same exact response.

I'd say with any of these famous characters, every aspect of their look from their size, shape, color, accessories, etc. are all trademarks in some form.

[RachelDawes]

For starters, I was kidding by calling him a racist. Ace is my boy, and he knows I don't find him racist for thinking that.

Secondly, I just don't see the skin color as being representative of the character. Superman's cape, Wonder Woman's breast plate, etc. are trademarks of the character (I was not referring to personality). I'm not opposed to keeping Catwoman white, even for the sake of the fact that she's white in the comics (hell, my top choices for her are all white), but I just think it's hilarious that someone mentions a black Catwoman and everyone else JUMPS to say the character shouldn't be black because he/she isn't in the comics.

I'm not "pro-black" or "pro-ethnicity change", but I'm not opposed to the idea of a black black or hispanic woman playing Catwoman.

That's pretty much how I feel about the topic, but we should also broaden our view and look to Asian or Indian women who can play the role. Blacks, whites, and Latinos shouldn't have all the fun.

[Blackman]

I dont think a character should have their race changed just for sake of it?
Black Catwoman okay, White Catwoman okay but why make the character a different race that has ever been adapted before. I was even against Billy Dee WIlliams as Harvey Dent

NO Black Captain America
No Hispanic/Asian/Indian Catwoman
No Black James Bond

Hair color (Bale as Batman, Craig as Bond) is the only thing that should change

[Crook]

Why is a black Catwoman ok, but another minority isn't? :huh:

[KalMart]

She'd make a good Renee Montoya.

That's what I said from the outset, but some thought she was too sexy. Now she's sexy enough for Catwoman, but is she 'white' enough?

[Blackman]

Why is a black Catwoman ok, but another minority isn't? :huh:
Because Catwoman has been African American in the comics. Year One, Nine Lives,

[batboy99]

No black,asian,indian, hispanic ETC Catwoman! Shes white for christ sakes! Show me one comic where she is black. And Y1 doesnt count because in alot of the panels, she was the same colour as the white characters.

And dont give me the Eartha Kitt and Halle Berry ********.
One, neither of them were Selina Kyle.
Two, they were both made for film and tv
Three,there was alot in the 60's show that was added that wasnt in the comics
Four, Catwoman the movie was complete ****.

[Crook]

Because Catwoman has been African American in the comics. Year One, Nine Lives,
Arguable she was black in them. But that's another discussion. Assuming you are right though, what of the significance when they first came out? Was it alright then, when there was no previous black Catwoman in the comics?

[batboy99]

I couldnt comment on Nine Lives as I havnt read it, but she wasnt black in Y1. She was in alot of the panels, the same skin colour as the white characters. And her hair cut does not make her black.

[Blackman]

Arguable she was black in them. But that's another discussion. Assuming you are right though, what of the significance when they first came out? Was it alright then, when there was no previous black Catwoman in the comics?
You make a good point
Personally I just want a white Catwoman
but i'm saying if she was black I wouldnt have as much of a problem
Just make her white. I Love all races of women but just keep her white

[batboy99]

Is Catwoman nine lives that mini seires released in 1992?

[Blackman]

I couldnt comment on Nine Lives as I havnt read it, but she wasnt black in Y1. She was in alot of the panels, the same skin colour as the white characters. And her hair cut does not make her black.
I think that she was definitely Black or at least mixed

[Johnny Drama]

Still on the Catwoman race debate I see.

[Blackman]

Ya we should end it.

[batboy99]

I think that she was definitely Black or at least mixed
I dont think so. If i had pics i would show you that in most panels, shes the same colour as Bruce and others.

[Blackman]

Last comment on RaCE
I'm looking at the panels right now and she isn't the same color as Bruce and the others

[KalMart]

So if race won't be an issue, does that mean we should only propose Caucasian actresses, or can we propose actresses of any race and not bring it up in judging their suitability?

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Catwoman wasn't exactly Halle's best performance. Nor is she an innocent bystander behind the scenes. IIRC she is an actress with power in Hollywood. She had no problem using it to make a ****** movie.I'm not really into Halle bashing as I'm not a fan or a hater of hers and I never said that she was an innocent bystander. She chose to play in a movie with a bad script, that alone negates an innocent bystander defense. I believe most of the blame belongs to WB though. As big as Halle is/was she was still a black woman in hollywood so I seriously doubt that she had all that much power.

I'm bored of this race debate. My choice is Weisz anyhow so I'm not even advocating a Black actress for Catwoman.

[batboy99]

Last comment on RaCE
I'm looking at the panels right now and she isn't the same color as Bruce and the others
I was just giving an example off the top of my head, I dont know if It was Bruce really, but I do remember she was the same colour as somone else.

And arent most of her scenes in a dark setting? That could totally play on the colour of her skin.

[Laderlappen]

For starters, I was kidding by calling him a racist. Ace is my boy, and he knows I don't find him racist for thinking that.

Secondly, I just don't see the skin color as being representative of the character. Superman's cape, Wonder Woman's breast plate, etc. are trademarks of the character (I was not referring to personality). I'm not opposed to keeping Catwoman white, even for the sake of the fact that she's white in the comics (hell, my top choices for her are all white), but I just think it's hilarious that someone mentions a black Catwoman and everyone else JUMPS to say the character shouldn't be black because he/she isn't in the comics.

I'm not "pro-black" or "pro-ethnicity change", but I'm not opposed to the idea of a black black or hispanic woman playing Catwoman.None of us have really jumped at anybody. Not now atleast. Alex who was the one that said he didnt like Rosario and the other actress didnt even mention their race.

I personally want a white Catwoman. But I have no problem with people suggesting actresses that are none-white. Its honestly isnt the most important thing. If I had to chose between a black actresses that can act and a talentless white actress, I would chose the black one. But I would still prefer the actresses to be white.

[Cunning Stunts]

How isn't it? Conceivably, removing any of those "trademarks" would immediately illicit some sort of response in the vein of "something's changed here", right? You change the race or skin color of those characters and you'd get the same exact response.

I'd say with any of these famous characters, every aspect of their look from their size, shape, color, accessories, etc. are all trademarks in some form.

Well look at it this way... If you saw a black man dressed up in a full Batman costume, I'd bet you'd probably think, "He's Batman- Black, but Batman."

If you saw a white man dressed in a grey suit with a cape, minus the cowl or insignia, or other specific modifications that Batman's costume has, you'd more times than not probably ask, "Who is he pretending to be? New superhero?" The only ones I see causing any sort of race conflict are characters like Black Manta, Black Panther, the Green Lanterns (with one of John Stewart's trademarks, arguably, being that he is the sole black Green Lantern/prominent Justice League member), etc.

That's pretty much how I feel about the topic, but we should also broaden our view and look to Asian or Indian women who can play the role. Blacks, whites, and Latinos shouldn't have all the fun.

Yeah, same here, I just tossed a couple ethnicities out there. Didn't mean to leave any out, just using some examples.

I say may the best actress win, whatever color she is.

[Crook]

Well look at it this way... If you saw a black man dressed up in a full Batman costume, I'd bet you'd probably think, "He's Batman- Black, but Batman."
Well that fits with my previous comparisons; "He's Superman---no cape, but Superman". Or "She's Wonder Woman---, no breastplate, but still WW".

I'm not talking about changing every aspect of the appearance so that they're unrecognizable. Just one little detail that no matter how minuscule, will be immediately noticeable to anyone familiar with the traditional iconography. That's all.

And I apologize for anyone being tired of the race debate. But the fact is, every argument in this thread has been recycled over and over again. So kindly spare your fingers an extra scroll or two if you don't wish to read this discussion. :o

[Cunning Stunts]

Well that fits with my previous comparisons; "He's Superman---no cape, but Superman". Or "She's Wonder Woman---, no breastplate, but still WW".

I'm not talking about changing every aspect of the appearance so that they're unrecognizable. Just one little detail that no matter how minuscule, will be immediately noticeable to anyone familiar with the traditional iconography. That's all.

And I apologize for anyone being tired of the race debate. But the fact is, every argument in this thread has been recycled over and over again. So kindly spare your fingers an extra scroll or two if you don't wish to read this discussion. :o

I agree in that certain aspects are just as disposable or indisposable (whichever you prefer) as race, but that's the thing, I don't really see specific costuming and symbols to be on the same grounds as race. It sounds messed up of me, but I feel like the people who can't get past looking at a black/asian/hispanic/character of any other race that it doesn't match up to in the comics are just too ignorant to enjoy the performance of a great character instead of a minor detail. As I stated before, I'm all for keeping it 100% in line with the comics, but if there's a better actor/actress out there who can knock the role out of the park, but isn't the same ethnicity as his or her character, so be it. Again: May the best actor/actress win, regardless of color.

[Crook]

Theoretically, I agree. But realistically, can anyone here honestly name a minority actor/actress whose skill level can't be matched by a caucasian equivalent? In ANY Hollywood era? I think that's the conundrum of "may the best actor win, despite race".

[The Major]

That's what I said from the outset, but some thought she was too sexy.

That's the argument? She's to sexy to be the character? :hehe: Sanchez would make a great Renee IMO.

Now she's sexy enough for Catwoman, but is she 'white' enough?
She is sexy enough. No, she isn't white enough. Not when Hollywood is filled with enough better actresses who are white. That's the biggest hurdle Sanchez for the role, something which wouldn't be anywhere near as hard as with Renee.

[KalMart]

Theoretically, I agree. But realistically, can anyone here honestly name a minority actor/actress whose skill level can't be matched by a caucasian equivalent? In ANY Hollywood era?
I challenge anyone of any race/era to try and fill Toshiro Mifune's shoes. So there's one.

I think that's the conundrum of "may the best actor win, despite race".

Or the conundrum of declaring gold standards and/or defaults, for that matter. :O

[Two-Face]

I can't believe Kate Beckinsale is leading the polls....

[RachelDawes]

I can't believe Kate Beckinsale is leading the polls....

Technically "Other" leads the polls.

[Cunning Stunts]

Theoretically, I agree. But realistically, can anyone here honestly name a minority actor/actress whose skill level can't be matched by a caucasian equivalent? In ANY Hollywood era? I think that's the conundrum of "may the best actor win, despite race".

Good point. Honestly, I don't think I can honestly say that that isn't true...

[Ongie]

I know this isn't going to be a popular choice - but to me, it's obvious.
Catwoman needs to be raw, unpredictable and feral - and there's only one woman who fits the bill for me...


Lori Beth Denberg, ladies and gentlemen.

Lori. Beth. Denberg.

[Ibn]

There's really no point in getting into it because my reason is perosonal. I've seen others get into THIS type of debate and it ALWAYS goes the same way. I don't care to be labeled something I'm not simply because I don't want either of these actresses to play Catwoman.

I hope this make sense. If it doesn't then PM me and I'll tell you.

I hope then, that you were dissapointed when Ra's al Ghul turned out to be white. And please, don't make this "personal". That is kinda inappropriate for her skin tone to be that big of a deal for anyone (as I've said countless times). And Ace of Knaves and Crook are right. If that's the case just say it. As long as you say it in a non ********-racist way, I doubt anyone will judge you. I'm a strong advocate for a black catwoman, and I wouldn't judge you:woot:.

:hehe: I wouldn't have a problem with Rosario, I think she is a decent actress.

But I'm just saying it's not racist because you don't want a black person playing a white person from the comics.

(Winona Ryder would be even better) :D

:up:

Perhaps. But I don't mind addressing it directly. I've got proof of ex-gf's just in case someone wants to pull the race card on me.

:hehe:



I don't dislike Dawson but she is overmentioned on these boards and Patton is too cutesy for Catwoman.

If I were choosing a black chick I would choose Naomie Harris.

Overmentioned? Come on now. And Heath Legder was supposedly too pretty to play the Joker. He turned out pretty good.




For starters, I was kidding by calling him a racist. Ace is my boy, and he knows I don't find him racist for thinking that.

Secondly, I just don't see the skin color as being representative of the character. Superman's cape, Wonder Woman's breast plate, etc. are trademarks of the character (I was not referring to personality). I'm not opposed to keeping Catwoman white, even for the sake of the fact that she's white in the comics (hell, my top choices for her are all white), but I just think it's hilarious that someone mentions a black Catwoman and everyone else JUMPS to say the character shouldn't be black because he/she isn't in the comics.

I'm not "pro-black" or "pro-ethnicity change", but I'm not opposed to the idea of a black black or hispanic woman playing Catwoman.

THANK GOD!! I feel like somebody is actually sticking up for me because that's EXACTLY how it ALWAYS goes down.


So if race won't be an issue, does that mean we should only propose Caucasian actresses, or can we propose actresses of any race and not bring it up in judging their suitability?

Thank you man. Because I'm so tired of having this turn into an arguement. It really pisses me off. I'm through arguing.

[batlovescatDC]

The fact is it's not even about the fact of "OMG! A black Catwoman! She's not black in the comics.... this is gonna be another CINO!". No, it's about the fact that there has never been a faithful, straight-forward, true adaptation of Selina Kyle or Catwoman. So, for once, we want an adaptation like that. If an actress that was of other race than caucasian was cast then it wouldn't be a true adaptation.

[batboy99]

I think its time Catwoman had a faithful adaptation. I dont think we have gotten one yet.

Dont get me wrong, I loved Burtons Catwoman ,but thats what it was, BURTON's Catwoman. Not the Catwoman from the comics.

[RachelDawes]

I think its time Catwoman had a faithful adaptation. I dont think we have gotten one yet.

Dont get me wrong, I loved Burtons Catwoman ,but thats what it was, BURTON's Catwoman. Not the Catwoman from the comics.

Most of Nolan's other villains have been comics-perfect so I wouldn't expect Catowoman to be either.

[Figs]

Most of Nolan's other villains haven't been comics-perfect so I wouldn't expect Catowoman to be either.

Fixed. :)

[Alex Logan]

I hope then, that you were dissapointed when Ra's al Ghul turned out to be white. And please, don't make this "personal". That is kinda inappropriate for her skin tone to be that big of a deal for anyone (as I've said countless times). And Ace of Knaves and Crook are right. If that's the case just say it. As long as you say it in a non ********-racist way, I doubt anyone will judge you. I'm a strong advocate for a black catwoman, and I wouldn't judge you:woot:.

Exactly what "color" do you think Ra's Al Ghul is? In the comics he looks white, but clearly he's not American so really what we're talking about here is race and not color. When I thought Ra's was being played by Ken Watanabe I was not very happy. Liam Neeson was perfect for that role, he even looks like Ra's.

And HOW DARE YOU SIR!!! HOW DARE YOU!! Don't tell me not to make this personal, I love the character so I have the right to do so. :woot:

That's the problem though, I shouldn't have to announce the fact that I'm not a racist. Anybody who thinks I am just because I don't want an african american actor playing a character that's been portrayed as a caucasian for over fifty years is an idiot.

Who are you kidding man? People won't judge me? Come on. You say you won't and I believe you, but judging others is what people do, that's the world my friend.

Look, here's the deal... I don't like it when they change the race of major characters. A good example is Black Mask. During the mid nineties he wore a mask and from the way he talked I was sure he was african. Today that's the not the case, he's caucasian. Now maybe he was always caucasian, but from the way they wrote the character back then I was sure he was african. Stuff like that kinda bugs me.

[Alex Logan]

Most of Nolan's other villains have been comics-perfect so I wouldn't expect Catowoman to be either.

I assume you mean their costumes.

[The Major]

Exactly what "color" do you think Ra's Al Ghul is? In the comics he looks white, but clearly he's not American so really what we're talking about here is race and not color. When I thought Ra's was being played by Ken Watanabe I was not very happy. Liam Neeson was perfect for that role, he even looks like Ra's.

And HOW DARE YOU SIR!!! HOW DARE YOU!! Don't tell me not to make this personal, I love the character so I have the right to do so. :woot:

That's the problem though, I shouldn't have to announce the fact that I'm not a racist. Anybody who thinks I am just because I don't want an african american actor playing a character that's been portrayed as a caucasian for over fifty years is an idiot.

Who are you kidding man? People won't judge me? Come on. You say you won't and I believe you, but judging others is what people do, that's the world my friend.

Look, here's the deal... I don't like it when they change the race of major characters. A good example is Black Mask. During the mid nineties he wore a mask and from the way he talked I was sure he was african. Today that's the not the case, he's caucasian. Now maybe he was always caucasian, but from the way they wrote the character back then I was sure he was african. Stuff like that kinda bugs me.
Ra's may been drawn white in the comics but I always got the impression he was Middle Eastern ethnically. In Batman:TAS he definitely didn't look caucasian IMO.

[batboy99]

To be fair, alot of arabic people are actually white. I know a few arabic people and though they are middle eastern, they are still white in colour.

[KalMart]

Exactly what "color" do you think Ra's Al Ghul is? In the comics he looks white, but clearly he's not American so really what we're talking about here is race and not color. When I thought Ra's was being played by Ken Watanabe I was not very happy. Liam Neeson was perfect for that role, he even looks like Ra's.

And HOW DARE YOU SIR!!! HOW DARE YOU!! Don't tell me not to make this personal, I love the character so I have the right to do so. :woot:

That's the problem though, I shouldn't have to announce the fact that I'm not a racist. Anybody who thinks I am just because I don't want an african american actor playing a character that's been portrayed as a caucasian for over fifty years is an idiot.

Who are you kidding man? People won't judge me? Come on. You say you won't and I believe you, but judging others is what people do, that's the world my friend.

Look, here's the deal... I don't like it when they change the race of major characters. A good example is Black Mask. During the mid nineties he wore a mask and from the way he talked I was sure he was african. Today that's the not the case, he's caucasian. Now maybe he was always caucasian, but from the way they wrote the character back then I was sure he was african. Stuff like that kinda bugs me.

How did he talk?

[RachelDawes]

Fixed. :)

What'd you fix?

I assume you mean their costumes.

Ra's - Changed to Henri Ducard.
Scarecrow - A younger man (I was always under the impression that Crane was middle-aged in the comics) who runs Arkham.
Joker - Painted face with scars.
Two-Face - Not scarred with acid in a court room, but burned in a warehouse fire.

As far as I know, these are significant deviations from the comics that have been embraced by fans because they worked out well. Catwoman's race could simply be another one of Nolan's changes.

[Cunning Stunts]

The fact is it's not even about the fact of "OMG! A black Catwoman! She's not black in the comics.... this is gonna be another CINO!". No, it's about the fact that there has never been a faithful, straight-forward, true adaptation of Selina Kyle or Catwoman. So, for once, we want an adaptation like that. If an actress that was of other race than caucasian was cast then it wouldn't be a true adaptation.

"Adaptation" is just that, an adaptation. Not 100% the same as comics, but fixed enough to suit the medium it's being portrayed in. If it takes Nolan bringing in Rosario Dawson to do that, I'm fine with it. She would be a nice "stfu" for everyone, since she's black, white, AND hispanic. :hehe:

[Cunning Stunts]

Ra's - Changed to Henri Ducard.
Scarecrow - A younger man (I was always under the impression that Crane was middle-aged in the comics) who runs Arkham.
Joker - Painted face with scars.
Two-Face - Not scarred with acid in a court room, but burned in a warehouse fire.

As far as I know, these are significant deviations from the comics that have been embraced by fans because they worked out well. Catwoman's race could simply be another one of Nolan's changes.

QF MF'in T. :up:

[JokerLedger]

I know this isn't going to be a popular choice - but to me, it's obvious.
Catwoman needs to be raw, unpredictable and feral - and there's only one woman who fits the bill for me...


Lori Beth Denberg, ladies and gentlemen.

Lori. Beth. Denberg.

I guess that's some vital information right there...

[Sky Captain]

For our everyday lives.

Sorry.

[RachelDawes]

"Adaptation" is just that, an adaptation. Not 100% the same as comics, but fixed enough to suit the medium it's being portrayed in. If it takes Nolan bringing in Rosario Dawson to do that, I'm fine with it. She would be a nice "stfu" for everyone, since she's black, white, AND hispanic. :hehe:

I hadn't thought of that. You know, all Nolan's supervillains so far have been white so maybe Catwoman will be a compensation.

[Crook]

Yeah, that'd be nice. A lil' affirmative action to balance the equation.

[KalMart]

"Adaptation" is just that, an adaptation. Not 100% the same as comics, but fixed enough to suit the medium it's being portrayed in. If it takes Nolan bringing in Rosario Dawson to do that, I'm fine with it. She would be a nice "stfu" for everyone, since she's black, white, AND hispanic. :hehe:
I hadn't thought of that. You know, all Nolan's supervillains so far have been white so maybe Catwoman will be a compensation.
Yeah, that'd be nice. A lil' affirmative action to balance the equation.

For what? Is there a quota now? Favoring someone for their ethnicity is as much of an issue of race as excluding them. If we really want to remove the issue of race, neither should come into play. If Dawson happens to be cast as Catwoman...or anyone...I hope it's because she's considered the best actress (that they could get) for the role, and not because they want to make a statement with her ethnicity. After all, racial equality means not having to justify being different.

[Cunning Stunts]

Did you miss half our other posts?

I said specifically I'm not pro-ethnicity change, but I'm not at all opposed to the idea.

[KalMart]

Did you miss half our other posts?

I said specifically I'm not pro-ethnicity change, but I'm not at all opposed to the idea.
Did you read my response? How about this....if they were to change the ethnicity...or more aptly, if the chosen actor happened to not be the same ethnicity as the comic character, do you think they'd have to justify it...or that it needs to be a 'stfu', as you put it? Or is okay that they cast who they think is best, and not concern themselves with the ethnicity?

Basically, are there conditions to your (and anyone's) not being opposed to it aside from the actor's skill?

[Cunning Stunts]

Did you read my response? How about this....if they were to change the ethnicity...or more aptly, if the chosen actor happened to not be the same ethnicity as the comic character, do you think they'd have to justify it...or that it needs to be a 'stfu', as you put it? Or is okay that they cast who they think is best, and not concern themselves with the ethnicity?

I did read your response, but I can't tell whether your just picking apart our opinions or if you're just curious as to why we believe what we believe. Not trying to be an *******, it's just hard to tell.

I don't think they'd have to justify it at all, really. I think they would justify it anyway, given that probably 80% of the fanbase would give Nolan a big "WTF?!"

I don't think it needs to be an "stfu" (so much net-lingo here :p), I was kidding by that statement. I do however, realize that it would likely play out like that anyway given Rosario Dawson's numerous ethnic backgrounds.

I say choose the best actress, but as Crook said (which I agree with), for every black, asian, hispanic (or any other ethnicity) actress that could pull off Catwoman, there are probably just as many white actresses that would be chosen, even if not for the fact that Catwoman is indeed white in most of her comic portrayals.

[KalMart]

I did read your response, but I can't tell whether your just picking apart our opinions or if you're just curious as to why we believe what we believe. Not trying to be an *******, it's just hard to tell.
I'll make it easier...it's the former.

I don't think they'd have to justify it at all, really. I think they would justify it anyway, given that probably 80% of the fanbase would give Nolan a big "WTF?!"
I agree, and I also agree that people will attach 'motives' anyway, even if there aren't any. So the issue might be if they would be concerned with that or not. I would think not, if the film itself is good.

I don't think it needs to be an "stfu" (so much net-lingo here :p), I was kidding by that statement. I do however, realize that it would likely play out like that anyway given Rosario Dawson's numerous ethnic backgrounds.
Depends on who's making the fuss and needs to STFU. :cwink:

I say choose the best actress, but as Crook said (which I agree with), for every black, asian, hispanic (or any other ethnicity) actress that could pull off Catwoman, there are probably just as many white actresses that would be chosen, even if not for the fact that Catwoman is indeed white in most of her comic portrayals.
Well, in general, there are more white people in movies than non-whites. What if...for sake of argument...they audition 5 actresses...one black, four caucasian. And the black actress impresses them the most. Should she not be the leading choice?

At the same time....sticking closely to how the source material portrays the ethnicities shouldn't be seen as exclusivity, if you will, either. Heck, if they're looking for white males to play Superman or Batman without making a fuss as to why not a black or Asian, there really shouldn't be a problem or calls of foul play if they're doing the same with everyone else.

[Cunning Stunts]

If the black actress is the best and most suited for the role, then most definitely. I don't care of she's as black as outer space, so long as she can knock the role out of the park. I think that there's just too much racism throughout the fanbase (whether they're hardcore about it or not), and whether anybody would like to admit it, saying "Catwoman can't be black" is racist.

Those motives you mentioned will always be attached- by the media, by the fanboys/girls, and most likely by an overwhelming percentage of the population would as well. As much as I'd like to see what Nolan could do with an actress like Rosario (pertaining to Catwoman, or any other character she would be placed into), I think even with her the fanbase would be way too jaded to allow it to go unnoticed that she's not 100% white. Hell, look what we're doing to Obama. :p

[Crook]

I think that there's just too much racism throughout the fanbase (whether they're hardcore about it or not), and whether anybody would like to admit it, saying "Catwoman can't be black" is racist.
What if we say, "Catwoman has to be white"? :o

As I see it, it's merely being faithful to the source material. I can only speak for myself, but this discussion is honestly not about race at all. A racial change is as much of an alteration to me as a Selina who is husky-sized, unattractive, and tall. And trust me, I would be just as vocal about it.

But I doubt someone here would say I hate fat, tall, and ugly people because I have certain requirements for a fictional character who has preordained traits.

[Cunning Stunts]

That's racist as well, to be honest. But, we've been there. No need to go through it as well.

I just want Eva Green. :up:

[Crook]

Did you just completely gloss over the part of my post that was serious, in order to respond to a joke? :funny:

[regwec]

I just don't see Catwoman as a character whose race is at all important, unless her blood connections to the Falcone's is to be stressed. Even in that scenario, she could be the illegitimate daughter of a pure Sicilian father and a black mother. That would go someway to explaining why Falcone kept her secret.

[Laderlappen]

Im getting really offended here being called a racist for wanting an actor to look somewhat like the character. I would feel the same about black characters or asian characters.

[jmc]

Nice to see the race debate has reared its ugly head again.

The equation is simple, if Caucasian comic characters are open to being played by actors of any race, then it must go for all comic characters. Those in support of a Selina Kyle of any race have to be open to race not being a factor for all characters. Let's put it this way, Storm in the X-men films could easily have been played by a Caucasian actress because neither her race or where she came from was essential to the overall story.

[Ace of Knaves]

Bane-I would want a Latin actor, not a white actor.

Croc-I would want a black actor, not a white actor.

Catwoman-I would want a white actress, not a black, or latin, etc actress,

That isn't racist, that's accuracy to source material.

[Ace of Knaves]

Nice to see the race debate has reared its ugly head again.

The equation is simple, if Caucasian comic characters are open to being played by actors of any race, then it must go for all comic characters. Those in support of a Selina Kyle of any race have to be open to race not being a factor for all characters. Let's put it this way, Storm in the X-men films could easily have been played by a Caucasian actress because neither her race or where she came from was essential to the overall story.

Well with Storm it's different. She has to be black because she originates from Africa and that is part of her character.

[regwec]

Bane-I would want a Latin actor, not a white actor.

Croc-I would want a black actor, not a white actor.

Catwoman-I would want a white actress, not a black, or latin, etc actress,

That isn't racist, that's accuracy to source material.

Indeed, but in some of these cases, the departure from the source material would be rather superficial; about as significant as Batman wearing all black rather than black or blue and grey; and a lot less significant than The Joker wearing face paint.

As you have pointed out, race is a more important element for some characters than others. Bruce Wayne needs to be seen to be part of the old establishment; he therefore needs to be white. Apart from being a glamorous socialite, Catwoman is much less culturally specific. Casting an actress with brown skin in the role would, to me, be no less acceptable than a blonde Harvey Dent or James Bond: it looks different, but that's it.

I don't want anyone to think that I am accusing them of racism over this issue- I just don't understand why this purely visual change would be less acceptable than any of the others made by Chris Nolan.

[itsthebatman]

I don't want anyone to think that I am accusing them of racism over this issue- I just don't understand why this purely visual change would be less acceptable than any of the others made by Chris Nolan.
And it wouldn't be. If Rosario Dawson, or any non-Caucasian, was cast as Catwoman, there would be a brief backlash, and then most people will accept it (those who cared in the first place). We will, of course, have the usual people claiming they agreed with Nolan's decision all along, and then the die-hards who will rail against it forever.

[jmc]

Well with Storm it's different. She has to be black because she originates from Africa and that is part of her character.

Tell me how her being from Africa is essential to any of the plots in the X-men movies.

[WeaponXProject]

Tell me how her being from Africa is essential to any of the plots in the X-men movies.


Tell me why Storm shouldn't be a black actress/character in the movie and why? She always was and always should be.


As for Catwoman being black potentially...I'm fine with it as long as there is talent behind it.

[Two-Face]

Double post, I didn't even click twice. Strange.

[Two-Face]

I'm fine with black Catwoman but we have this discussion every year and same with Harvey Dent before Eckhart was cast so I don't know why there is argument.


Sad really.

[Ace of Knaves]

Indeed, but in some of these cases, the departure from the source material would be rather superficial; about as significant as Batman wearing all black rather than black or blue and grey; and a lot less significant than The Joker wearing face paint.

As you have pointed out, race is a more important element for some characters than others. Bruce Wayne needs to be seen to be part of the old establishment; he therefore needs to be white. Apart from being a glamorous socialite, Catwoman is much less culturally specific. Casting an actress with brown skin in the role would, to me, be no less acceptable than a blonde Harvey Dent or James Bond: it looks different, but that's it.

I don't want anyone to think that I am accusing them of racism over this issue- I just don't understand why this purely visual change would be less acceptable than any of the others made by Chris Nolan.

I wouldn't really have a problem if a black woman or any other ethnicity woman was cast as Selina. I wouldn't start moaning about it because I trust Nolan.

But I mean, Selina Kyle/Catwoman is white, she has always been white, why change it? What purpose is there in changing her skin colour?

Tell me how her being from Africa is essential to any of the plots in the X-men movies.

It isn't important to the story or plots, but that is irrelevant. Storm is a powerful African woman, that is who she is.

And the X-Men is all about racial equality, and standing in the way of discrimination. The fact is if Storm was a white girl from Iowa or something it wouldn't be Storm and it wouldn't be the X-Men.

[Laderlappen]

I think most of us that want a white Selina arent saying 'Selina has to be white'. Its more like 'We want(or prefer) a white actress'. This discussion is ridiculous and we have had it before. Nobody is trying to convince anybody that Selina has to be white. It has nothing to do with racism. Some people just care more about the actress looking like the character from the comic than others. If you dont care, it doesnt make you wrong. But neither is it wrong if you do.

[Figs]

LOL

I wouldn't like Rosario in the role, but that's because I don't think she can act well. Ever film I've seen her in she is almost always the same.

As for the whole race argument, I'm not getting involved with that, especially when a person or two just contradicted themselves when trying to explain why it doesn't matter if Catwoman is not played by a white actress.

Personally, I don't mind as long as the actress can act...which I don't think Rosario can.

[Venomfan]

guys JMC is playing devils advocate with Storm. he isn't actually suggesting she be white. he's saying that if we can change one characters race we can change others, especially when its not important to the FILM. By his example, Storm being from Africa wasn't important to the film, so one could argue that they could cast her as any other race. going by that logic you could, but it would also be stupid and a pointless change. thats his point. didn't seem like people were getting that.

[WeaponXProject]

And the X-Men is all about racial equality, and standing in the way of discrimination. The fact is if Storm was a white girl from Iowa or something it wouldn't be Storm and it wouldn't be the X-Men.
It has been said by Stan Lee that the X-Men has a lot of relations to the civil rights movement.

Like you said in the movies they didn't focus on her African heritage. Infact Singer got rid of the african accent after the first movie. But, the character's persona in the comics and what should have been in the film is how strong-willed an African woman fighting adversity should be.


None of Catwoman's history has to do with black heritage but that doesn't necessarily mean she can't be played by a black actress or any other race as long as she fits into the Nolan-verse. People wouldn't be used to it but I was fine with Billy Dee's Harvey back in the day.

[KalMart]

Come to think of it, you'd be hard-pressed to find a more racially-diverse and PC movie out there than TDK. Think about it....


Black people who have reached a position of power, like a commisioner or judge or CEO.......killed or forced to resign.

A hispanic special crimes unit cop.....traitor.

Italians, Russians, Chinese....gangsters, drug dealers, extortionists, money-launderers.

The DA...the white knight...the symbol of hope...a very aryan Eckhart, and the character's still a hero after he's killed for his sins.


Perfect platform to introduce a black Catwoman. But why stop there....heck, they should make her retarded, too.



:grin::woot::oldrazz:

[Ace of Knaves]

Well yea, I've seen people say TDK was subtly racist. Which I think is ridiculous, but the things you mention are worth thinking about.

[Ace of Knaves]

guys JMC is playing devils advocate with Storm. he isn't actually suggesting she be white. he's saying that if we can change one characters race we can change others, especially when its not important to the FILM. By his example, Storm being from Africa wasn't important to the film, so one could argue that they could cast her as any other race. going by that logic you could, but it would also be stupid and a pointless change. thats his point. didn't seem like people were getting that.

No, Storm HAS to be black. Whether that ties into the story is irrelevant.

[RachelDawes]

If the black actress is the best and most suited for the role, then most definitely. I don't care of she's as black as outer space, so long as she can knock the role out of the park. I think that there's just too much racism throughout the fanbase (whether they're hardcore about it or not), and whether anybody would like to admit it, saying "Catwoman can't be black" is racist.

I don't think it's racist so much as it is purist. Whenever anyone suggests a deviation from what's familiar in the comics there's always a fan uproar until it's proven it works. Look at the permawhite thread. The permawhite supremacists (:hehe:) weren't discriminating against people who wear makeup, they just thought the change was unnecessary and detracted from the Joker's character. They didn't embrace the change until it was proven that makeup worked well in the context of the movie.

I can't jump on anyone for not wanting a nonwhite Catwoman because I have my preferences too. I wouldn't want a black Batman, or an Asian Superman. Now why that would be so terrible when I'm willing to accept a black Catwoman or an Asian Lois Lane I couldn't easily tell you. It's just how I feel. I'm sure that's how some people feel about a possible racial change to Catwoman.

[regwec]

You aren't comparing like with like. Several key story lines alluding to The Joker's genesis and history suggest that the moment of his "unholy chemical baptism" and the permanent ruination of his face and skin were the hinge on which his mental explosion swung. Translating this into a madman who wears makeup is effective in its own right, but fails to capture that particular drama.

When I say I do not mind whether Catwoman is white or black, I am not advocating an alteration of her character or history. I simply do not see what difference the tincture of her skin makes to either.

[CB Fan]

When I say I do not mind whether Catwoman is white or black, I am not advocating an alteration of her character or history. I simply do not see what difference the tincture of her skin makes to either.

Thats exactly how I feel. A change in her Skin color really doesn't change her character's history or personality it's not like she's gonna be running around the screen snapping her fingers and saying 'Oh no you didn't', and robbing popeye's chicken, not all black people are like that, LOL.

[jmc]

It isn't important to the story or plots, but that is irrelevant. Storm is a powerful African woman, that is who she is.

And the X-Men is all about racial equality, and standing in the way of discrimination. The fact is if Storm was a white girl from Iowa or something it wouldn't be Storm and it wouldn't be the X-Men.

And Selina Kyle is a powerful Caucasian woman, that's who she is. If you admit that Storms race is of no relevance the story of any of the X-men films, then you can't say she has to be African, simple as that, if it makes no difference to the story then it's up for grabs for anyone. guys JMC is playing devils advocate with Storm. he isn't actually suggesting she be white. he's saying that if we can change one characters race we can change others, especially when its not important to the FILM. By his example, Storm being from Africa wasn't important to the film, so one could argue that they could cast her as any other race. going by that logic you could, but it would also be stupid and a pointless change. thats his point. didn't seem like people were getting that.

Thank you, if race isn't a factor in the story, then they can cast any one to play any role. You can't say Caucasians characters are open to being played by people of different races and not have it the other way around, it has to go both ways. But that will just end in endless arguments. You know what the easiest solution is in all of this? Simple, cast someone who matches the basic criteria of the character.

[CB Fan]

I believe that in X3 there was supposed to be a conversation between Storm and Xavier where she mentions being from Africa but Ratner cut it for time purposes.

[Alex Logan]

How did he talk?

After reading over the comic again, I was mistaken. I blam it on the fact that I was young the first time I read it.

Ra's - Changed to Henri Ducard.
Scarecrow - A younger man (I was always under the impression that Crane was middle-aged in the comics) who runs Arkham.
Joker - Painted face with scars.
Two-Face - Not scarred with acid in a court room, but burned in a warehouse fire.

As far as I know, these are significant deviations from the comics that have been embraced by fans because they worked out well. Catwoman's race could simply be another one of Nolan's changes.

Ra's - This really bothered me at first, that is until I looked at it from the point of view that Ra's Al Ghul is a title and not a really a name.
Scarecrow - I didn't care for Crane being middle-aged in the comics and I thought what Nolan did impoved on the character.
Joker - This didn't bother me at all because I understood why it was done.
Two-Face - Same here, Aaron was so good it didn't matter.

The problem with Catwoman's race it that most fans would not embrace a change. And let's be honest here, there's no reason to change it.

I think that there's just too much racism throughout the fanbase (whether they're hardcore about it or not), and whether anybody would like to admit it, saying "Catwoman can't be black" is racist.

Are you totally clueless or are you just trying to pick to fight? When you go LOOKING for racism you're bound to find it.

[Timstuff]

They should make Catwoman white just for the sake of distancing themselves from the abysmal CINO Halle Berry vehicle. Being accurate to the comics as well certainly doesn't hurt, though.

[Ledlunar]

I believe that in X3 there was supposed to be a conversation between Storm and Xavier where she mentions being from Africa but Ratner cut it for time purposes.

yeah he probably cut it for a really bad scene... wait...

thats the whole movie

[Ledlunar]

They should make Catwoman white just for the sake of distancing themselves from the abysmal CINO Halle Berry vehicle. Being accurate to the comics as well certainly doesn't hurt, though.

though it really doesn't matter I do get what you mean...

[Cunning Stunts]

I don't think it's racist so much as it is purist. Whenever anyone suggests a deviation from what's familiar in the comics there's always a fan uproar until it's proven it works. Look at the permawhite thread. The permawhite supremacists (:hehe:) weren't discriminating against people who wear makeup, they just thought the change was unnecessary and detracted from the Joker's character. They didn't embrace the change until it was proven that makeup worked well in the context of the movie.

I can't jump on anyone for not wanting a nonwhite Catwoman because I have my preferences too. I wouldn't want a black Batman, or an Asian Superman. Now why that would be so terrible when I'm willing to accept a black Catwoman or an Asian Lois Lane I couldn't easily tell you. It's just how I feel. I'm sure that's how some people feel about a possible racial change to Catwoman.

I wouldn't go so far as to call the fanbase a bunch of Nazis, but I think (from hearing this firsthand, too) that maybe some of the fanbase may not be necessarily attracted to black women, and thus that could be part of what fuels why they don't want a white Catwoman- they want Catwoman to be as sexy as can be (in their opinions), like she is in the comics. My past post probably came off more harshly than I intended, but just because you're not out there burning crosses in front yards doesn't mean you're not being discriminatory.

This question arose when I suggested (I wasn't the first to suggest this, so credit goes out to whoever did) Don Cheadle for The Riddler. I wasn't doing it to try to "blacken" this Batman series (as I was accused), I just think Don Cheadle's a phenomenal actor, and would blow the role out of the park. As someone else posted her before, I don't think Catwoman's skin color should matter so much (especially if it's freakin' Rosario Dawson) unless her ties to Falcone are touched on in these movies... Even then, I could totally see Dawson still playing the part.

[Cunning Stunts]

Are you totally clueless or are you just trying to pick to fight? When you go LOOKING for racism you're bound to find it.

Racism: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race.

"Catwoman can't be black."

That = discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race.

[Crook]

It's discriminatory (which isn't necessarily a bad thing in this case), but it's not racist. You can put me in the "I want her to be white" camp, but I can assure you I'm fully attracted to black women.

Think of these roles as certain jobs that have prerequisites. NASA and FBI, for example, have very strict guidelines for their positions. People have to jump through hoops just to be seriously considered. And yes, they do screen people for physical attributes as well as special skills. Under this guise, it's discriminatory. But with reason. They're looking for specific qualities, as we all are for characters who have set appearances and traits.

An off-hand character like Ramirez is akin to a fast-food worker. Pretty much anyone can fulfill that job.

But here's another question; if I say "Harvey Dent can't be a girl", is that sexist? If not, why?

[Laderlappen]

I cant speak for others, but I AM attracted to black women. Asians too.
We just want the character to look somewhat like the one from the comics. I wouldnt want a woman with a BMI above 25 or somebody that is really tall. I have nothing against overweight people or tall people, its just not the character I know. Race is obviously a very touchy subject and thats why we get stuck on it. I hate the fact that we cant talk about race in any topic without anybody getting accused of racism.

[Ace of Knaves]

^Completely agreed.

[CB Fan]

yeah he probably cut it for a really bad scene... wait...

thats the whole movie

I wouldn't doubt that he chose to off it for some more action scenes. That movie had too much action and not enough drama/character development, but that's an argument for the x-men side of the fourms. :)

[WeaponXProject]

I have a feeling we are going to see a completely different take on Catwoman in Nolan's version than the one we have seen in the comics. Like Rachel showed us earlier that there have been many discrepancies and variations of characters in Nolans that are accepted adn I think Catwoman, if she is in the movie, will be a very dark individual with conviction rather than a playful and overtly sexy character. That's just me but I'm looking at the first two movies and do not see her character being light what so ever.

[Crook]

The character isn't light. :huh:

Have you read her series? She has plenty of dark demons and convictions. All that you need is in the source material. Rachel is irrelevant as she had no guidelines being an original character.

[KalMart]

How sure are we that they'll be going with Catwoman, anyway?

[Figs]

How sure are we that they'll going with Catwoman, anyway?

We're not sure at all.

It's all just wishfull thinking and speculation at this point. It mainly has to do with Rachel being killed in TDK so a lot of people assume Nolan(if he returns)will bring in Catwoman as the new love interest...or to have a female element at least.

[KalMart]

I don't think they need a love interest at this point. But we'll see.

[RachelDawes]

The character isn't light. :huh:

Have you read her series? She has plenty of dark demons and convictions. All that you need is in the source material. Rachel is irrelevant as she had no guidelines being an original character.

I think he was referring to my post a couple pages back where I pointed out how Nolan's altered villains from the comics.

[WeaponXProject]

The character isn't light. :huh:

Have you read her series? She has plenty of dark demons and convictions. All that you need is in the source material. Rachel is irrelevant as she had no guidelines being an original character.


No, I've read her series and I do think she, though has demons in the closet, is too playful and i don't see Nolan incorporating it. I see her as less sassy and more serious in Nolan's movies. That's what I meant.


Rachel isn't irrelevant considering I was referencing the "RachelDawes" who posts in this thread. Not the movie character. :oldrazz:

[Crook]

No, I've read her series and I do think she, though has demons in the closet, is too playful and i don't see Nolan incorporating it. I see her as less sassy and more serious in Nolan's movies. That's what I meant.
Well that would be heartbreaking, truly. I don't mind a more serious take on the character. But the slinky seductress is practically an archetype Catwoman created. To do away with it completely is unnecessary. Burton kept it in tact, but I doubt anyone saw Michelle's performance as being lighthearted. If they want to reinterpret what Catwoman is known for, as they did with Joker, then go for it. But I'm not for reinvention.

Rachel isn't irrelevant considering I was referencing the "RachelDawes" who posts in this thread. Not the movie character. :oldrazz:

I think he was referring to my post a couple pages back where I pointed out how Nolan's altered villains from the comics.
My statement still stands. Rachel is irrelevant. :huh:









:funny:

[RachelDawes]

My statement still stands. Rachel is irrelevant. :huh:









:funny:

You came very close to making me post a :cmad: face. :nono:







:cwink:

[Alex Logan]

Racism: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race.

"Catwoman can't be black."

That = discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race.

Again, if you go LOOKING for racism, you will find it. And that's not racism. This is racism:

THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE!!! I AM NOT SAYING THIS!!!!

If I said: "A (insert word here) can't play Catwoman!" Then that would be racism. You are choosing to see racism in that comment and that makes you a fool.

It's discriminatory (which isn't necessarily a bad thing in this case), but it's not racist. You can put me in the "I want her to be white" camp, but I can assure you I'm fully attracted to black women.



Think of these roles as certain jobs that have prerequisites. NASA and FBI, for example, have very strict guidelines for their positions. People have to jump through hoops just to be seriously considered. And yes, they do screen people for physical attributes as well as special skills. Under this guise, it's discriminatory. But with reason. They're looking for specific qualities, as we all are for characters who have set appearances and traits.



An off-hand character like Ramirez is akin to a fast-food worker. Pretty much anyone can fulfill that job.



But here's another question; if I say "Harvey Dent can't be a girl", is that sexist? If not, why?

Agreed.

I cant speak for others, but I AM attracted to black women. Asians too.

We just want the character to look somewhat like the one from the comics. I wouldnt want a woman with a BMI above 25 or somebody that is really tall. I have nothing against overweight people or tall people, its just not the character I know. Race is obviously a very touchy subject and thats why we get stuck on it. I hate the fact that we cant talk about race in any topic without anybody getting accused of racism.

Agreed.

[Cunning Stunts]

It's discriminatory (which isn't necessarily a bad thing in this case), but it's not racist. You can put me in the "I want her to be white" camp, but I can assure you I'm fully attracted to black women.

Think of these roles as certain jobs that have prerequisites. NASA and FBI, for example, have very strict guidelines for their positions. People have to jump through hoops just to be seriously considered. And yes, they do screen people for physical attributes as well as special skills. Under this guise, it's discriminatory. But with reason. They're looking for specific qualities, as we all are for characters who have set appearances and traits.

An off-hand character like Ramirez is akin to a fast-food worker. Pretty much anyone can fulfill that job.

But here's another question; if I say "Harvey Dent can't be a girl", is that sexist? If not, why?

A character like Ramirez, yeah, I could see that role being played by either male or female (obviously changing the first name :p). But Two-Face... I mean, that would change up the whole dynamic of the movie. Women and men in such a position that Harvey was in during The Dark Knight would likely operate differently and would most likely be operated differently by script writers. Changing a person's skin color... It's aesthetic. Changing their sex could bring about a number of changes. Again, not opposed, so long as it's done well, although that would be significantly weirder to grasp than seeing a racial change to any particular character.

[Cunning Stunts]

Again, if you go LOOKING for racism, you will find it. And that's not racism. This is racism:

THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE!!! I AM NOT SAYING THIS!!!!

If I said: "A (insert word here) can't play Catwoman!" Then that would be racism. You are choosing to see racism in that comment and that makes you a fool.

You either have it out for me, or just you just can't wrap your head around the true meaning of an idea.

Racism is discriminating against someone because of their particular race. Stating that a black person cannot play Catwoman is racist.

Why can't she play Catwoman in that situation? Because she's black. Without argument, that is discriminating.

Calling a black person the 'n' word is the other half of the definition, "abusive behavior toward...". I'm not choosing to see racism, and I'm not calling anyone a Nazi, but there are elements of racism present (and these are going to be brought up anyway) when someone says, "If you're (insert race here), you cannot play (insert character here)," mostly so with characters who races don't really matter in the first place. I.e., Catwoman.

The real foolish thing is name-calling, then not having a half-decent argument to back yourself up.

[Crook]

A character like Ramirez, yeah, I could see that role being played by either male or female (obviously changing the first name :p). But Two-Face... I mean, that would change up the whole dynamic of the movie. Women and men in such a position that Harvey was in during The Dark Knight would likely operate differently and would most likely be operated differently by script writers.
But conceptually it does not have to. There wasn't anything Harvey did in TDK that could only be performed by a man. The dynamics change only if the writer intends for it to be so. I'm not denying that a gender alteration would most likely result in a different arc. At the same time I am positive there would be no fundamental difference between a male and female Dent, had their stories remain identical.

Changing a person's skin color... It's aesthetic. Changing their sex could bring about a number of changes.
Actually, I can argue this point in a myriad of ways. But then we'd be going in an entirely different discussion with nature vs nurture. I digress.

As I said, it'd only change things if you want the altered factor to be of significance. Be it race, gender, sexual orientation, physical stature, what-have-you. It all depends on what you want out of that character.

Again, not opposed, so long as it's done well, although that would be significantly weirder to grasp than seeing a racial change to any particular character.
If people felt differently though, is it sexist?

[Cunning Stunts]

But conceptually it does not have to. There wasn't anything Harvey did in TDK that could only be performed by a man. The dynamics change only if the writer intends for it to be so. I'm not denying that a gender alteration would most likely result in a different arc. At the same time I am positive there would be no fundamental difference between a male and female Dent, had their stories remain identical.


Actually, I can argue this point in a myriad of ways. But then we'd be going in an entirely different discussion with nature vs nurture. I digress.

As I said, it'd only change things if you want the altered factor to be of significance. Be it race, gender, sexual orientation, physical stature, what-have-you. It all depends on what you want out of that character.


If people felt differently though, is it sexist?

Again, no, because I still don't agree that things could have been done 100% the same, mainly because of the love interest factor. I'm all for some girl-on-girl, but I really couldn't have seen those writers putting Rachel between a male and a female. Rachel is arguably what drove a lot of the plot points in that story. Outside of that, I could definitely see most, if not all, of the story staying the same. The two sexes operate differently, although not saying at all that we can't operate the same way, and even less so that a female couldn't have been written into the part. With a female Two-Face, I think we'd have had an entirely different movie. With a black one, nothing would have had to change.

[Crook]

Not denying it would have been different, just playing devil's advocate by saying it could have stayed exactly the same.

You keep avoiding my question, though. I presume you've known the right answer all this time? :p

[Laderlappen]

Exactly. Changing Dent's sex or race doesnt chance anything. But the Dent we know is white and a man so obviously some people would want Dent to be white and a man because thats the dent we know. Its not sexist or racist.

[Cunning Stunts]

Not denying it would have been different, just playing devil's advocate by saying it could have stayed exactly the same.

You keep avoiding my question, though. I presume you've known the right answer all this time? :p

Haha, I thought I did answer it the first time. Yes, I guess you could argue there are sexist elements to that. I don't feel it's as overtly discriminatory as the race issue, given the circumstances of the storyline that I already explained. So, I agree on some points and I disagree on others, to put it loosely.

Just to be an *******, I say the next Batman director pulls what I saw a theatre did with a showing of Othello once. They hired Patrick Stewart to play Othello, and filled every other role with black actors. Pulled the ol' switcheroo. :o

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Can the race talk be put to bed already!

[Zephyr Alexian]

Since Rebecca Romijn's was one of the poll choices, technically, she played a better Catwoman in the X-men series than Michelle Pfieffer or Halle Berry ever did.:o

If Catherine Zeta Jones(40+) was 25, she would be the perfect Catwoman. Her charisma, ability to perform, and screen presence would make her the no-brainer. Her character in 'Entrapment' had a lot of similar elements to what would be required of catwoman. This role would've fit for Demi Moore as well, if the Hollywood double standard of age was not a factor.

As for the perfect casting choice, that's contingent upon the script. Each actress in the poll brings something unique that could benefit the role, but it all comes down to the writer's interpretation. What type of personal arc will she have?

I do not believe that Natalie Portman is right for the role, but her worldly background is the kind that I feel is vital for the performance. I think the actress must have multi-cultural knowledge to incorporate into a performance about a woman who travels the globe on various heists. The South African Charlize Theron would have been perfect for the part if she had not done 'Aeon Flux'. Due to that, Nolan would/will never cast her, but she would be my choice.

Concerning race, I'm not sure that it would really matter for this part. Selina Kyle's iterations have never personally struck me as the prototypical stylings of an all american girl. She seems exotic or foreign in a way, possibly bi-racial <european/asian, perhaps?>.

[Crook]

Since Rebecca Romijn's was one of the poll choices, technically, she played a better Catwoman in the X-men series than Michelle Pfieffer or Halle Berry ever did.:o
By saying lines that don't even fill up a page, and barely naked? :huh:

[The Major]

A character like Ramirez, yeah, I could see that role being played by either male or female (obviously changing the first name :p). But Two-Face... I mean, that would change up the whole dynamic of the movie. Women and men in such a position that Harvey was in during The Dark Knight would likely operate differently and would most likely be operated differently by script writers. Changing a person's skin color... It's aesthetic. Changing their sex could bring about a number of changes. Again, not opposed, so long as it's done well, although that would be significantly weirder to grasp than seeing a racial change to any particular character.
Changing a character's ethnicity can have an effect on how they interact with the world.

[Cunning Stunts]

Changing a character's culture can have an effect on how they interact with the world.

Fixed. Big difference. :o

[The Major]

Fixed. Big difference. :o
The two can be closely related. Changing the ethnicity risks changing the culture. Depending on the character it can alter them into something else. If Superman were black the Kent's would have some explaining to do when they bought him to Smallville. That Martha being pregnant during a snow storm for months story isn't going to work.

[Laderlappen]

I dont think I've ever seen anybody being so incredibly offensive like this on SHH.

Oh and Rebecca Romjin was the worst actor in the whole Xmen trilogy.

[Cunning Stunts]

... Are you referring to me?

[Majik1387]

Oh and Rebecca Romjin was the worst actor in the whole Xmen trilogy.
Wrong.

[batboy99]

How can you say she was one of the worst when there was hardly anything to base that on?

[Ace of Knaves]

I thought Mystique was one of the best things about the X-Men movies. She even got her own little theme!

[regwec]

Could those of you who are against any black actress being considered for the role point out exactly which aspects of Catwoman's characrer would have to be changed if she were played by an actress with black skin?

Thank you.

[Ace of Knaves]

I wouldn't have a problem if a black woman was cast as Catwoman, but I'd prefer that not to happen. Why?

Same reason I would want a black man playing Croc if he was in the film.

Same reason I would want a Hispanic man playing Bane if he was in the film.

So basically, it's because she is a white woman in the comics. Why change that for absolutely no reason? What purpose is there in changing Selina Kyle's race?

[Crook]

Could those of you who are against any black actress being considered for the role point out exactly which aspects of Catwoman's characrer would have to be changed if she were played by an actress with black skin?

Thank you.
Could you point out where we said it did? As I recall, it's simply a matter of looking faithful to the source.

[Laderlappen]

Im not against her being black. I just prefer her to be white.

[WeaponXProject]

Well that would be heartbreaking, truly. I don't mind a more serious take on the character. But the slinky seductress is practically an archetype Catwoman created. To do away with it completely is unnecessary. Burton kept it in tact, but I doubt anyone saw Michelle's performance as being lighthearted. If they want to reinterpret what Catwoman is known for, as they did with Joker, then go for it. But I'm not for reinvention.




My statement still stands. Rachel is irrelevant. :huh:









:funny:

We'll have to wait and see...I would like to see a Catwoman that is playful but with how serious Nolan takes his movies I wouldn't be surprised if she was a mirror of BruceWayne/Batman on the opposite side of the law.

And i still don't think it matters what skin color she is in Nolan's universe...the source material has been tampered with already with no problem whatsoever, IMO.

[Laderlappen]

We'll have to wait and see...I would like to see a Catwoman that is playful but with how serious Nolan takes his movies I wouldn't be surprised if she was a mirror of BruceWayne/Batman on the opposite side of the law.

And i still don't think it matters what skin color she is in Nolan's universe...the source material has been tampered with already with no problem whatsoever, IMO.Not that much really. The actors still looks somewhat like the characters from the comics.

[Blackman]

I wouldn't have a problem if a black woman was cast as Catwoman, but I'd prefer that not to happen. Why?

Same reason I would want a black man playing Croc if he was in the film.

Same reason I would want a Hispanic man playing Bane if he was in the film.

So basically, it's because she is a white woman in the comics. Why change that for absolutely no reason? What purpose is there in changing Selina Kyle's race?

:up:

[elgato]

ya, I agree with Laderlappen on that, my opinion on the race of the characters is that it shouldn't be changed in anyway. It's like mantaining the character the most accurate to the original version that it can. What do you guys would think of a blonde Mary Jane? or a Chinese Storm, it would be changing the character completely.

[Blackman]

I think we should have an indian Bruce Wayne in a Batman series after Nolan leaves

[elgato]

yay!! and a german superman!!! ^^

[Blackman]

^^^^even better a German Captain America

[elgato]

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo281/Gato-Chico/catwomancasting00.jpg

Guys I was sooo bored that I made this u-u...

Eliza Dushku manip- batboy99

Keri Russell manip- jmc

Rachel Weisz manip- Arsh

Charlize Theron manip- bunk

[Crook]

Awesome job, man. Cotillard and Jolie look the best there. Nice to show the "Selina" side as well. :up:

[DarkKnight88]

I agree. Cotillard especially looks the best here.

[jmc]

^ It's the eyes, both Jolie and Cotillard have very cat like eyes compared to the rest of them.

[knockout]

I rather see Harley than Catwoman or even love interest in Batman 3. Nolan messes up his characters especially female ones in most of his works.
And just because its Catwoman or some character part of the Batman mythos Nolan will aced it? The women in Superman Returns,Iron Man,Ghost Rider,Spiderman,Hulk,X-Men were not really all that. Margot Kidder and Michelle Pheiffer were great but scriptwise they do get cartooney and annoying.

[knockout]

I meant no love interest in the third Batman installment.

[Alex Logan]

You either have it out for me, or just you just can't wrap your head around the true meaning of an idea.

Racism is discriminating against someone because of their particular race. Stating that a black person cannot play Catwoman is racist.

Why can't she play Catwoman in that situation? Because she's black. Without argument, that is discriminating.

Calling a black person the 'n' word is the other half of the definition, "abusive behavior toward...". I'm not choosing to see racism, and I'm not calling anyone a Nazi, but there are elements of racism present (and these are going to be brought up anyway) when someone says, "If you're (insert race here), you cannot play (insert character here)," mostly so with characters who races don't really matter in the first place. I.e., Catwoman.

The real foolish thing is name-calling, then not having a half-decent argument to back yourself up.

Why would I have it out fo you? Have done something that you feel quilty for? :whatever:

I never stated a black person cannot play Catwoman, I don't think anyone else did either.

I have plunty to back up my argument. I don't WANT a african american actress to play her because she's caucasian in comics. It has nothing to do with being racist, I want her to be as faithful to the source as possible.

What I can't figure out is why YOU are fighting SO hard for this subject. I've yet to hear one single reason, let alone a good argument, of why her race should be changed from you or anyone else. What's YOUR point? Why do YOU care so much?

Changing a character's ethnicity can have an effect on how they interact with the world.

Thank you.

Could those of you who are against any black actress being considered for the role point out exactly which aspects of Catwoman's characrer would have to be changed if she were played by an actress with black skin?

Thank you.

The fact that she's been portrayed in the comics as a caucasian woman. :cwink:

Could you point out where we said it did? As I recall, it's simply a matter of looking faithful to the source.

Yes, please.

[RachelDawes]

It's kind of embarrassing for me to admit this, but the main reason I jumped on the Cotillard bandwagon was a manip elgato made of her. She just looked so perfect in the catsuit. *buries face in hands*

[Alex Logan]

It's kind of embarrassing for me to admit this, but the main reason I jumped on the Cotillard bandwagon was a manip elgato made of her. She just looked so perfect in the catsuit. *buries face in hands*

Shouldn't you have a better reason then that? :p

[RachelDawes]

Shouldn't you have a better reason then that? :p

That's why I buried my face in my hands. :funny:

I was actually leaning towards her because I'd heard she was a really good actress, plus I thought she had the Catwoman look. It was the manip that pushed me over the edge.

[annie.j88]

as a batman fan, i would rather see a white catwoman (as that is how she is portrayed in the comics) but maybe they should include some more black characters and maybe flesh them out more.

an example of this is the wonderfull morgan freeman.

[david icke]

Could those of you who are against any black actress being considered for the role point out exactly which aspects of Catwoman's character would have to be changed if she were played by an actress with black skin?



The fact that she's been portrayed in the comics as a caucasian woman. :cwink:


Hypothetical scenario...

The casting process of Catwoman has boiled down to two actresses, one is obviously better than the other, all the casting agents and the director agree. So why are they still dilly dallying over giving the final say on who gets the role?

Casting agent1 : "She's obviously far better ...but she's black?! Catwoman in the comics is caucasian. The fans won't like it. There was that Halle Berry film as well, we don't want people associating it with that film."

Casting agent2: " But there's nothing in the script that would have to be changed one iota if she were to be played by a black woman. Why not have the better actress play the role?
As for the Halle Berry film, it's a Chris Nolan film, no-one thought of Batman and Robin when they were watching Batman Begins, that terrible Catwoman film won't be associated with it at all."

Casting agent1 : "But she's caucasian in the comics."

Casting agent 2: "Ok, you're right, let's have a film of a lesser quality to placate comicbook fans over a detail that in the final analysis means absolutely nothing."

Changing a character's ethnicity can change how they interact with the world

Yeah, and it's usually due to prejudice that that happens. If anything that aspect could make the character more interesting. But it doesn't have to be touched on at all if they don't want to.

[Ace of Knaves]

Well that is a nice scenario you have presented. But there is no black actresses out there that are better and more suited to the role than the likes of Marion Cotillard or Winona Ryder IMO. So it's irrelevant.

[Laderlappen]

Hypothetical scenario...

The casting process of Catwoman has boiled down to two actresses, one is obviously better than the other, all the casting agents and the director agree. So why are they still dilly dallying over giving the final say on who gets the role?

Casting agent1 : "She's obviously far better ...but she's black?! Catwoman in the comics is caucasian. The fans won't like it. There was that Halle Berry film as well, we don't want people associating it with that film."

Casting agent2: " But there's nothing in the script that would have to be changed one iota if she were to be played by a black woman. Why not have the better actress play the role?
As for the Halle Berry film, it's a Chris Nolan film, no-one thought of Batman and Robin when they were watching Batman Begins, that terrible Catwoman film won't be associated with it at all."

Casting agent1 : "But she's caucasian in the comics."

Casting agent 2: "Ok, you're right, let's have a film of a lesser quality to placate comicbook fans over a detail that in the final analysis means absolutely nothing."
Do you think its a coincidence that the actors are looking like the characters they are playing and of all major roles the one black character is played by a black actor?

[david icke]

Do you think its a coincidence that the actors are looking like the characters they are playing and of all major roles the one black character is played by a black actor?

Not exactly true. Ras Al Ghul isn't exactly western-caucasian, he's from the Middle East, Arabian. Further to that casting, before people knew of the twist in Batman Begins, I didn't notice any fans on the web up in arms about Ras being announced as being played by a Japanese actor in Ken Watanabe.
For the most part I imagine they will go for the ethnicity of the character in the comics, but if an actor auditions better who is not of that ethnicity I don't imagine they would rule it out.

edit: I hated the fact that they made Jessica alba look awful with those de-humanising blue contacts in FF2 to make her look more blue eyed caucasian like sue storm in the comics. I'd have rather they played Sue as how Jessica alba normally looks, her own ethnicity. but then, that role was not cast on acting ability imo, more that she was flavour of the month. so they wanted her for that reason and they also wanted to be wanting to placate comic book fans, and it all turned out wrong.

I liked MCD as the Kingpin, I hardly think of that fact he's black when I'm watching DD. The kingpin's defining feature is his size, that was a more important factor in portraying teh comic book character than his ethnicity.

[david icke]

Well that is a nice scenario you have presented. But there is no black actresses out there that are better and more suited to the role than the likes of Marion Cotillard or Winona Ryder IMO. So it's irrelevant.

Irrelevant to you as you know who you want for the role, and you feel no-one on Earth is more suited to the role than those women. But not irrelevant to your argument that there is absolutely no reason to cast non-caucasian. There may in fact be an actual reason to cast someone non-caucasian, ie if someone came along and blew all the caucasian actresses out of the water.

[Crook]

Not exactly true. Ras Al Ghul isn't exactly western-caucasian, he's from the Middle East, Arabian. Further to that casting, before people knew of the twist in Batman Begins, I didn't notice any fans on the web up in arms about Ras being announced as being played by a Japanese actor in Ken Watanabe.
Up in arms, no. But there was definitely "talk" regarding the ethnicity change. But it wasn't that much of a ruckus because Ra's was from that region. Didn't matter in the end, for obvious reasons.

Irrelevant to you as you know who you want for the role, and you feel no-one on Earth is more suited to the role than those women. But not irrelevant to your argument that there is absolutely no reason to cast non-caucasian. There may in fact be an actual reason to cast someone non-caucasian, ie if someone came along and blew all the caucasian actresses out of the water.
It is still a hypothetical scenario that is unlikely to happen. Hence the irrelevance. If there is a black actress who can do those things you say, then bring her up. Otherwise, it's putting faith in someone you don't know exists.

[david icke]

It is still a hypothetical scenario that is unlikely to happen. Hence the irrelevance. If there is a black actress who can do those things you say, then bring her up. Otherwise, it's putting faith in someone you don't know exists.

I don't see why it's so unlikely considering we've had two black women playing Catwoman in the past. Ok, they weren't the best(I've only seen a couple of clips of Eartha Kitt but don't imagine her being better than Julie Newmarr) but that was down to acting ability not ethnicity.

edit: Ok, Halle wasn't playing Selina Kyle, but the change in character name was made before she was cast I imagine. It was caucasian actresses that were always brought up in the years after a 'spin-off' was announced. HB being cast along the same lines as alba in Ff, for popularity sakes other than acting ability.

My argument was more to do with the fact that some folk were saying there is no Earthly reason why they should acst non-caucasian, when there is.
In the poll I voted Angelina Jolie, but who knows, the one black actress that has been crossing my mind during this debate has been Rosario Dawson, I think she could give any causasian actress a run for her money in the audition process.

[Ace of Knaves]

There is also no earthly reason why they SHOULDN'T cast a Caucasian woman.

Give some examples of black women who you believe are more suited to the role than Marion Cotillard and co.

[Crook]

I don't see why it's so unlikely considering we've had two black women playing Catwoman in the past. Ok, they weren't the best(I've only seen a couple of clips of Eartha Kitt but don't imagine her being better than Julie Newmarr) but that was down to acting ability not ethnicity.
And that was my point. Unless you can bring up a black actress that stands above and beyond the white actresses, then I'd be open to her. But at the moment not only do we not have that, but we have a great wide of choices from caucasian women alone.

My argument was more to do with the fact that some folk were saying there is no Earthly reason why they should acst non-caucasian, when there is.
And the answer to that hypothetical is "very unlikely". That's where my point is, from what Hollywood has given us.

In the poll I voted Angelina Jolie, but who knows, the one black actress that has been crossing my mind during this debate has been Rosario Dawson, I think she could give any causasian actress a run for her money in the audition process.
...based on what roles? Jolie, Theron, Cotillard, all have Academy-Award winning performances. Not to say that Oscars validate talent, but I haven't seen Rosario done anything anywhere near the caliber of roles they've done. :huh:

[david icke]

...based on what roles? Jolie, Theron, Cotillard, all have Academy-Award winning performances. Not to say that Oscars validate talent, but I haven't seen Rosario done anything anywhere near the caliber of roles they've done. :huh:

Yeah, I don't go by Oscar wins, look at Halle Berry and her Catwoman.

I don't know who Marion C is.

In the poll I voted AJ because she is a good actress, has the attitude and a good look for Catwoman.
Rosario Dawson has attitude and a playfulness to her that would suit Catwoman. The last thing I saw her in was 'Deathproof' and I liked her in that a lot. Her character was forced into going from a everyday person to one who would kick some arse when the chips where down in a dangerous situation, and I believed it.
A scenario not unlike the one Selina Kyle went through in Batman Returns.

The thing is, saying this in response to you as well Ace of knaves, we can balance up actresses past performances, how they look etc, but the only thing that counts for the actual movie is the audition. That's why I think it would be a shame if they advertised the role as being 'caucasian', as it could rule out a good actress, perhaps the best actress for this particular role, getting to show her chops.

They made Billy Dee Williams Harvey Dent in Batman, I thought he was good as Dent but I didn't like the casting as I couldn't see him being a good Two-Face, I wouldn't have minded a black Two-Face as long as he was the best man in the room for the job.

[Crook]

Nolan is unique in that he doesn't go for auditions. From what I've seen, asides from the role of Batman, he's basically offered the roles to actors he feels is fit for the role. In a way, filmography IS the audition.

That's why I don't feel Rosario, or any of the aforementioned black actresses hold a candle to their caucasian counterparts. The latter have simply accomplished more and have shown varying range in their parts.

You don't need to go "outside the box" here, there's plenty of choices available. There are no slim pickings.

[david icke]

Nolan is unique in that he doesn't go for auditions. From what I've seen, asides from the role of Batman, he's basically offered the roles to actors he feels is fit for the role. In a way, filmography IS the audition.

That's why I don't feel Rosario, or any of the aforementioned black actresses hold a candle to their caucasian counterparts. The latter have simply accomplished more and have shown varying range in their parts.

You don't need to go "outside the box" here, there's plenty of choices available. There are no slim pickings.

I didn't know that about him eschewing auditions for all the roles except Batman. Brave way of doing it, he may miss out on someone. Oldman was 2nd choice for Gordon, can't imagine Chris Cooper being better in that role, although he is very good in what I've seen him in so who knows.

[Crook]

I imagine Nolan watches plenty of film on his own time. His own way of scouting the talent without having to directly confront them. Explains how he got Cotillard and Page on his next flick.

[Laderlappen]

Doesnt most actors that has somewhat of a resume not audition? Because what you'll see in an audition, is very different from what you'll see in the movie?

[flickchick85]

I think it's pretty common for roles of this magnitude to not have auditions, because they want established actors for them. If they do hold auditions, it's usually because A.) They're purposefully going for an unknown, or B.) they have to convince the studio. I seriously doubt they'll do A., and I think Nolan's earned enough trust with WB that B. won't be an issue. With the case of Catwoman, though, my guess is that they'll probably do screentests (not auditions - they'll have their top choices already picked out and ask them to come test) to see who works best with Bale. Unless they've already worked with him, I suppose.

[david icke]

Doesnt most actors that has somewhat of a resume not audition? Because what you'll see in an audition, is very different from what you'll see in the movie?

I think it depends on the situation. Some actors will say they are so seasoned that they are past the stage of auditioning, but then if some legend of a director insists they want an audition they will do it if they want the role badly enough.
Also, auditions are good to see if there is chemistry between two leads. Although, if they do rehersals before shooting they can see if there is chemistry or not between two leads.

edit: flickchick: oh yeah, screentests are what i was thinking of when talking about testing for chemistry. i was thinking of teh screentests you see on the SR dvd.

[Illuminata]

MY LIST OF SELINA PROSPECTS:

Rachel Weisz
Anna Paquin
Selma Blair

[regwec]

Those of you making the predictable jibes about having an Indian Bruce Wayne or a German Superman are either hopelessly ignorant, or are deliberately missing the point.

Bruce Wayne is a character who's cultural identity- an American version of an aristocrat, of a clubbable background a member of Gotham's historical first family- forms one half of his story. That makes him a white American, by extension.

Superman is Superman because his pod landed in Kansas. If it had landed in Bavaria, his story would have been different.

Selina Kyle has a sort of apocryphal background. She is a woman with a difficult early life, who mixes with high society, and steals. She might have a blood connection to a Mafioso, who does not aknowledge her. The shade of her skin just doesn't have any baring on this.

It is alright to want a white woman to play Catwoman because Catwoman is a white woman. I have no objection to that sentiment, in particular. But let's not pretend that it is anything other than a matter of race and aesthetics.

[The Major]

Hypothetical scenario...

The casting process of Catwoman has boiled down to two actresses, one is obviously better than the other, all the casting agents and the director agree. So why are they still dilly dallying over giving the final say on who gets the role?

Casting agent1 : "She's obviously far better ...but she's black?! Catwoman in the comics is caucasian. The fans won't like it. There was that Halle Berry film as well, we don't want people associating it with that film."

Casting agent2: " But there's nothing in the script that would have to be changed one iota if she were to be played by a black woman. Why not have the better actress play the role?
As for the Halle Berry film, it's a Chris Nolan film, no-one thought of Batman and Robin when they were watching Batman Begins, that terrible Catwoman film won't be associated with it at all."

Casting agent1 : "But she's caucasian in the comics."

Casting agent 2: "Ok, you're right, let's have a film of a lesser quality to placate comicbook fans over a detail that in the final analysis means absolutely nothing."

What if the white actress is as talented or more then the black actress? They do have good white actresses in Hollywood.


Yeah, and it's usually due to prejudice that that happens. If anything that aspect could make the character more interesting. But it doesn't have to be touched on at all if they don't want to.
Depends on the character. Some are more effected then others. You can't change Steve Rogers or Superman's race without huge differences with their peronalities and mythos.

[The Major]

edit: Ok, Halle wasn't playing Selina Kyle, but the change in character name was made before she was cast I imagine.

They didn't just change Selina's name they changed everything about the mythos in the movie.

It was caucasian actresses that were always brought up in the years after a 'spin-off' was announced.

There were a few. Ashley Judd was a contender.

HB being cast along the same lines as alba in Ff, for popularity sakes other than acting ability.

Halle is a good actress. She is a good Catwoman on paper, it's just they failed to execute it properly. The script was the beginning and it just got worse from there.

[Majik1387]

Casting agent2: " But there's nothing in the script that would have to be changed one iota if she were to be played by a black woman. Why not have the better actress play the role?
As for the Halle Berry film, it's a Chris Nolan film, no-one thought of Batman and Robin when they were watching Batman Begins, that terrible Catwoman film won't be associated with it at all."
Umm, yes people did.

[Cunning Stunts]

Those of you making the predictable jibes about having an Indian Bruce Wayne or a German Superman are either hopelessly ignorant, or are deliberately missing the point.

Bruce Wayne is a character who's cultural identity- an American version of an aristocrat, of a clubbable background a member of Gotham's historical first family- forms one half of his story. That makes him a white American, by extension.

Superman is Superman because his pod landed in Kansas. If it had landed in Bavaria, his story would have been different.

Selina Kyle has a sort of apocryphal background. She is a woman with a difficult early life, who mixes with high society, and steals. She might have a blood connection to a Mafioso, who does not aknowledge her. The shade of her skin just doesn't have any baring on this.

It is alright to want a white woman to play Catwoman because Catwoman is a white woman. I have no objection to that sentiment, in particular. But let's not pretend that it is anything other than a matter of race and aesthetics.

Why is that I have said exactly this like five times, but NOBODY seems to get it? Everyone's too concerned with the fact that I said there are racist undertones to denying an actress because she's black.

Oh, and QFT, btw.

Catwoman's skin has NO correlation to her character. Period. It's an aesthetic value alone.

[Cunning Stunts]

Doesnt most actors that has somewhat of a resume not audition? Because what you'll see in an audition, is very different from what you'll see in the movie?

Eh, really it depends on the actor and his or her relation to the creative team, and/or their skill. They all go through some form of audition, whether it's giving their ideas for a character, or doing a traditional audition (reading a monologue, doing cold reads, etc.). It depends on a few factors, but you're right: higher class actors like Christian Bale or Johnny Depp probably won't have to do the same kinds of auditions as actors like John Heder (ugh).

[Alex Logan]

Hypothetical scenario...

The casting process of Catwoman has boiled down to two actresses, one is obviously better than the other, all the casting agents and the director agree. So why are they still dilly dallying over giving the final say on who gets the role?

Casting agent1 : "She's obviously far better ...but she's black?! Catwoman in the comics is caucasian. The fans won't like it. There was that Halle Berry film as well, we don't want people associating it with that film."

Casting agent2: " But there's nothing in the script that would have to be changed one iota if she were to be played by a black woman. Why not have the better actress play the role?
As for the Halle Berry film, it's a Chris Nolan film, no-one thought of Batman and Robin when they were watching Batman Begins, that terrible Catwoman film won't be associated with it at all."

Casting agent1 : "But she's caucasian in the comics."

Casting agent 2: "Ok, you're right, let's have a film of a lesser quality to placate comicbook fans over a detail that in the final analysis means absolutely nothing."

Yeah, and it's usually due to prejudice that that happens. If anything that aspect could make the character more interesting. But it doesn't have to be touched on at all if they don't want to.

I don't really think that scenario would happen. I can't think of an african american actress in Hollywood today that would give a bettter performance then a caucasian actress.

Not exactly true. Ras Al Ghul isn't exactly western-caucasian, he's from the Middle East, Arabian. Further to that casting, before people knew of the twist in Batman Begins, I didn't notice any fans on the web up in arms about Ras being announced as being played by a Japanese actor in Ken Watanabe. For the most part I imagine they will go for the ethnicity of the character in the comics, but if an actor auditions better who is not of that ethnicity I don't imagine they would rule it out.

edit: I hated the fact that they made Jessica alba look awful with those de-humanising blue contacts in FF2 to make her look more blue eyed caucasian like sue storm in the comics. I'd have rather they played Sue as how Jessica alba normally looks, her own ethnicity. but then, that role was not cast on acting ability imo, more that she was flavour of the month. so they wanted her for that reason and they also wanted to be wanting to placate comic book fans, and it all turned out wrong.

I liked MCD as the Kingpin, I hardly think of that fact he's black when I'm watching DD. The kingpin's defining feature is his size, that was a more important factor in portraying teh comic book character than his ethnicity.

Ras Al Ghul mostly resides in the Middle East, but I'm not sure if he's Arabian. And can you honestly tell me that Liam doesn't look just like Ras?

I agree with you about Jessica Alba. She looked freakish in FF2.

[RachelDawes]

MY LIST OF SELINA PROSPECTS:

Rachel Weisz
Anna Paquin
Selma Blair

Why do you want Anna Paquin?

[Alex Logan]

Why do you want Anna Paquin?

OMG! I didn't even see that. Please GOD no!! :csad:

[elgato]

Guys why having this discution when we all know Marion Cotillard will get casted? xD j/k

I wouldn't be angry with a black Catwoman, but I prefer a caucasian one because that's the original character

[The Major]

Eh, really it depends on the actor and his or her relation to the creative team, and/or their skill. They all go through some form of audition, whether it's giving their ideas for a character, or doing a traditional audition (reading a monologue, doing cold reads, etc.). It depends on a few factors, but you're right: higher class actors like Christian Bale or Johnny Depp probably won't have to do the same kinds of auditions as actors like John Heder (ugh).
High profile actors don't have to audition at all IIRC. They just talk to the producers and directors then sign the contract.

[Alex Logan]

High profile actors don't have to audition at all IIRC. They just talk to the producers and directors then sign the contract.

Don't bother telling him anything about film or Hollywood because he already knows it all. :cwink:

[Cunning Stunts]

High profile actors don't have to audition at all IIRC. They just talk to the producers and directors then sign the contract.

That's what I was getting at by "non-traditional" auditions. Basically, like Crook said, their past movies count.

[Cunning Stunts]

Don't bother telling him anything about film or Hollywood because he already knows it all. :cwink:

:facepalm

My ass must feel great, because you sure like to ride it a lot.

[zeptron]

MY LIST OF SELINA PROSPECTS:

Rachel Weisz
Anna Paquin
Selma Blair

:dry:

[WeaponXProject]

Not that much really. The actors still looks somewhat like the characters from the comics.


Looks are the least of my worries in this series...its the persona of the character that stays but how they act in every scene and there origin isn't as important to me as how the story would unfold.

Consider the Joker, he had no origin what so ever and didn't need one in TDK.

[Laderlappen]

Oh ok. Looks was the topic of discussion so I assumed you were reffering to that.

[david icke]

What if the white actress is as talented or more then the black actress? They do have good white actresses in Hollywood.

The point of my post was to create a real life scenario whereby it would make sense to cast a black Catwoman.

Depends on the character. Some are more effected then others. You can't change Steve Rogers or Superman's race without huge differences with their peronalities and mythos.

Yeah, I thought that was obvious so didn't bring it up, merely said that if aspects the script didn't call for a white Catwoman why would it be a big deal to have her ethnicity non-caucasian?

I don't think that scenario would happen. I can't think of an african american actress that would give a better performance than a caucasian actress.

Since Crook came forward with the info that Nolan has only held auditions for the role of Batman, it's an even more unlikely scenario than I thought when I posted it.
But that was not the point of my post. My point was to illustrate a scenario to the many posters who were all chiming in that they wanted her caucasian because she was caucasian in the comics.
That was the argument I was responding to and quoted. Of course Hollywood is full of umpteen caucasian actresses who have had much more opportunity to get the top jobs and show their chops , I mean we've only had the first black woman win best actress in the last couple of years.

It would just blow my mind a little if folk would prefer a caucasian woman to play Catwoman, as 'that's the way the comics are', over a superior black actress, if in fact one existed, or got the chance, for the job.

The discussion then took the turn of ' there's none in existence who could outdo a caucasian actress.' But that still didn't answer the question of whether these posters, who want comics canon, would rather have a white actress for the sake of looks over a more talented black actress, if the situation were there.
If indeed that were so, we would have a situation where sticking to the comicbooks, a notion we have waited for along time in comicbook movies, would be detrimental to the art, big mistake.
I was more talking along those lines, hypothetical. I was asking if any of these guys would rather stick to the comics in that situation and get a lesser actress and therefore, movie. But I didn't get an answer to that question, maybe I should have been clearer, or maybe it was an uncomfortable question.

Ras al Ghul mostly resides in the middle East, but I'm not sure if he is Arabian. And can you tell me Liam didn't honestly look like Ras

I have been reading Batman comics with Ras al Ghul since I was 3 yrs old, and I couldn't have told you if he was Arabian, I looked it up on wiki, I knew he was from the Middle East though.
Thing is, both Ken Watanabe and Liam looked enough like Ras, and look how different in appearnace those two guys are, never mind ethnicity. For Ras all you need is some robes, some whiskers in the right places and an air of mystery/authority. For Catwoman, what do you need for her to look like Catwoman? A good looking chick in a Catwoman outfit, and some whiskers in the right places, or else she might pass for Ras Al Ghul.
doesn't matter what colour skin she has.

[Crook]

Since Crook came forward with the info that Nolan has only held auditions for the role of Batman, it's an even more unlikely scenario than I thought when I posted it.
But that was not the point of my post. My point was to illustrate a scenario to the many posters who were all chiming in that they wanted her caucasian because she was caucasian in the comics.
That was the argument I was responding to and quoted. Of course Hollywood is full of umpteen caucasian actresses who have had much more opportunity to get the top jobs and show their chops , I mean we've only had the first black woman win best actress in the last couple of years.

It would just blow my mind a little if folk would prefer a caucasian woman to play Catwoman, as 'that's the way the comics are', over a superior black actress, if in fact one existed, or got the chance, for the job.

The discussion then took the turn of ' there's none in existence who could outdo a caucasian actress.' But that still didn't answer the question of whether these posters, who want comics canon, would rather have a white actress for the sake of looks over a more talented black actress, if the situation were there.

If indeed that were so, we would have a situation where sticking to the comicbooks, a notion we have waited for along time in comicbook movies, would be detrimental to the art, big mistake.
I was more talking along those lines, hypothetical. I was asking if any of these guys would rather stick to the comics in that situation and get a lesser actress and therefore, movie. But I didn't get an answer to that question, maybe I should have been clearer, or maybe it was an uncomfortable question.
Well let's hold on here. Now that you've clarified your hypothetical, I feel it's a bit leading and one-sided. Let's assume for a moment that a young and gorgeous, talented black actress were to come along. And she's absolutely phenomenal in both looks and acting. And given that there were auditions, she did come out on top as the best.

The question is then; how better is she? And would it be worth it, considering this variance? To give an analogy to phones, say there was a 2009 and 2010 model. You have the former and it's quite perfectly capable and suitable for your needs. But then the latter comes out with a few new features. Overall however, it isn't a complete overhaul over yours. Just a year newer with some novel bells and whistles. Is it worth dishing out the money for something only slightly better?

Both actresses look the part (asides from color), and are generally the same on the acting scale. But the black woman edges her out only a tad on the acting side. There really going to be a difference between a 9 and a 9.5?

There's also the situation where the black woman above and beyond outperforms all the white actresses by a substantial amount. Which I can only say....improbable. Hollywood is dominantly white and that allows for a number of young talent to show off their skill. I don't think there will ever be a time where we're in short supply of talented white actors, in spite of race, age, or sex.

And one last point. I wouldn't suppose that a role can only be performed by one actor, despite different levels of talent and qualifications for the role. I can point out 2 distinct examples from this franchise, for example. Daniel-Day Lewis was offered the part of Ra's first, before it went to Neeson. Ditto for Matt Damon as Harvey Dent. If I'm to be perfectly honest, looks-wise I think Neeson and Eckhart were the better choices. Acting-wise, I think it's the complete opposite. Not even remotely a close competition. Despite not having the best look for the respective roles, I actually would have preferred DDL and Damon. Did it change much? No, not really. We still got good performances and that's WITH "settling" for actors who weren't the first choice or maybe even the best for the role. Though as a plus, they did look like their comic book counterparts more.

So as you see, I really do not think it's so B&W or as easy you imagine it to be. Talent-wise, there's just too much out there to be concerned with "the very best of the best". In the end I do not think it matters given whomever's chosen is capable in their own right. Especially for a young to middle aged, beautiful white female, which is the second easiest type of actor to find. To answer my own question of "is it worth it to change race?", given the variables; I don't think it is.

[The Major]

The point of my post was to create a real life scenario whereby it would make sense to cast a black Catwoman.

A real life scenario that is very unlikely to happen considering how many talented white actresses there are in Hollywood.

Yeah, I thought that was obvious so didn't bring it up, merely said that if aspects the script didn't call for a white Catwoman why would it be a big deal to have her ethnicity non-caucasian?

There should be some difference if the ethnicity is altered. Even if its subtle. Like making her real accent French or something to hide it and when she's Catwoman she's got an American accent.

The discussion then took the turn of ' there's none in existence who could outdo a caucasian actress.' But that still didn't answer the question of whether these posters, who want comics canon, would rather have a white actress for the sake of looks over a more talented black actress, if the situation were there.
If indeed that were so, we would have a situation where sticking to the comicbooks, a notion we have waited for along time in comicbook movies, would be detrimental to the art, big mistake.
I was more talking along those lines, hypothetical. I was asking if any of these guys would rather stick to the comics in that situation and get a lesser actress and therefore, movie. But I didn't get an answer to that question, maybe I should have been clearer, or maybe it was an uncomfortable question.

A situation which doesn't need to happen since it ignores how many good a white actresses there are in Hollywood. Especially for a high profile role like Catwoman.

[Alex Logan]

:facepalm

My ass must feel great, because you sure like to ride it a lot.

Who's riding anyone's ass? I was just stating facts... right?

Since Crook came forward with the info that Nolan has only held auditions for the role of Batman, it's an even more unlikely scenario than I thought when I posted it.

But that was not the point of my post. My point was to illustrate a scenario to the many posters who were all chiming in that they wanted her caucasian because she was caucasian in the comics.

That was the argument I was responding to and quoted. Of course Hollywood is full of umpteen caucasian actresses who have had much more opportunity to get the top jobs and show their chops , I mean we've only had the first black woman win best actress in the last couple of years.

It would just blow my mind a little if folk would prefer a caucasian woman to play Catwoman, as 'that's the way the comics are', over a superior black actress, if in fact one existed, or got the chance, for the job.

The discussion then took the turn of ' there's none in existence who could outdo a caucasian actress.' But that still didn't answer the question of whether these posters, who want comics canon, would rather have a white actress for the sake of looks over a more talented black actress, if the situation were there.

If indeed that were so, we would have a situation where sticking to the comicbooks, a notion we have waited for along time in comicbook movies, would be detrimental to the art, big mistake.

I was more talking along those lines, hypothetical. I was asking if any of these guys would rather stick to the comics in that situation and get a lesser actress and therefore, movie. But I didn't get an answer to that question, maybe I should have been clearer, or maybe it was an uncomfortable question.

I understand were you're coming from, but why even bring it up when it won't happen?

I have been reading Batman comics with Ras al Ghul since I was 3 yrs old, and I couldn't have told you if he was Arabian, I looked it up on wiki, I knew he was from the Middle East though.

Thing is, both Ken Watanabe and Liam looked enough like Ras, and look how different in appearnace those two guys are, never mind ethnicity. For Ras all you need is some robes, some whiskers in the right places and an air of mystery/authority. For Catwoman, what do you need for her to look like Catwoman? A good looking chick in a Catwoman outfit, and some whiskers in the right places, or else she might pass for Ras Al Ghul.

doesn't matter what colour skin she has.

That's a pretty early age to be reading comics my friend. :cwink: I also wouldn't trust Wiki.

I don't think Ken Watanabe looked like Ra's. I guess it depends on how you see the character in the comics.

As for Catwoman, same goes here, it depends on how you see the character in the comics. Who do I think looks most like Catwoman on our list? Kate Beckinsale.

[Cunning Stunts]

No, you're not. You're making gross generalizations and ignoring what I've blatantly said and admitted to.

[Alex Logan]

No, you're not. You're making gross generalizations and ignoring what I've blatantly said and admitted to.

Just like the race issue, you can see it anyway you want, but the fact remains that when you say things like this:

But the fact of the matter is, I know what I'm talking about, hence why I'll sound like an ******* whenever I debate with someone who doesn't.

I'd get the impression that whoever I'm debating with is an ******* because he knows more than I do and is correcting me when I'm wrong.

You will get called out as being a "know-it-all smart ass". :cwink:

[Cunning Stunts]

Just like the race issue, you can see it anyway you want, but the fact remains that when you say things like this:

You will get called out as being a "know-it-all smart ass". :cwink:

Nice to know that you're still obsessed with that. I figured it would have sunk into your brain by now that someone who does a certain trade for a living will naturally learn a bit more about it than those who don't. God forbid anyone admit he/she does so. :whatever:

I guess the Hype should add a new rule to its FAQ: Don't ever speak well of yourself.

[Alex Logan]

Nice to know that you're still obsessed with that. I figured it would have sunk into your brain by now that someone who does a certain trade for a living will naturally learn a bit more about it than those who don't. God forbid anyone admit he/she does so. :whatever:

I guess the Hype should add a new rule to its FAQ: Don't ever speak well of yourself.

I'm obsessed with nothing, obsession is a weakness that can and will lead to one's down fall. You just know how to leave a lasting impression... and a bad one at that. :cwink:

Didn't we already go over this? You don't do this trade for a living.

Those that are good at what they do don't need to speak highly of themselfs because they are humble. Do you think Chris Nolan runs around correcting people and telling them how good of a film maker he is?

You could benefit from some martial arts training.

[Cunning Stunts]

I'm obsessed with nothing, obsession is a weakness that can and will lead to one's down fall. You just know how to leave a lasting impression... and a bad one at that. :cwink:

Didn't we already go over this? You don't do this trade for a living.

Those that are good at what they do don't need to speak highly of themselfs because they are humble. Do you think Chris Nolan runs around correcting people and telling them how good of a film maker he is?

You could benefit from some martial arts training.

So somebody who admits he's good at what he does automatically isn't good at what he does? Besides, it's not like I run around telling everyone, "I'm the next Heath ****ing Ledger." The situation came up where I was being accused of not knowing what I was speaking about, and I delivered why I do. Again, assumptions. And for the record, I'd like to see where I said, "I'm a great actor."

Good luck finding that one, because I never said that, just that I know what I'm talking about considering I make my living doing just that- acting.

Second of all, since when were you able to decide what I do and don't have as a job? I make money acting. That's what I do. It's how I make my living. Sure, it's not enought to support myself completely and totally, but it's what I do.

Thirdly, I've got eight years of martial arts training, four years of it as a black belt. Again, thanks for the assumptions. So am I a terrible martial artist now too, because I admit I have a black belt?

[Cunning Stunts]

Yeah, we're overrunning the entire Catwoman thread. If you've got a problem with me, take it up with me in PM's or on my wall, or report me to the mods. If not, then we're done.

[WeaponXProject]

The race issue continues on but I am considering what most aren't: Does Nolan care about what race the actress may be?


In all sincerity I don't think that matters to him what so ever...he is first concerned with making a good movie and then concerned with what actress he thinks should play the part and I doubt he is shallow enough to say that the character must or must not be a certain race when ultimately that does not matter to who the character is.

It's a pointless discussion when we the fans think we are casting a movie like this.

To me it is all how the story plays out. If it fits...I don't care. Let's see a good movie first before we worry about precise details.

[Crook]

I doubt race is at the forefront of his mind, but I don't doubt he'll subconsciously cast according to how the character has been portrayed for the great majority of her appearances.

It's more of an instinctive, natural (but selective) process rather than the mechanical method of carrying around a checklist of requirements, if that makes sense.

[Laderlappen]

We just want the actress to look like the character!!! Its not just the bloody race! I dont understand why some of you dont care about anything looking like the comics, and it bothers me that it bothers you that some of us do. Its based on the comic, not losely based on it.

[david icke]

Well let's hold on here. Now that you've clarified your hypothetical, I feel it's a bit leading and one-sided. Let's assume for a moment that a young and gorgeous, talented black actress were to come along. And she's absolutely phenomenal in both looks and acting. And given that there were auditions, she did come out on top as the best.

The question is then; how better is she? And would it be worth it, considering this variance? To give an analogy to phones, say there was a 2009 and 2010 model. You have the former and it's quite perfectly capable and suitable for your needs. But then the latter comes out with a few new features. Overall however, it isn't a complete overhaul over yours. Just a year newer with some novel bells and whistles. Is it worth dishing out the money for something only slightly better?

Both actresses look the part (asides from color), and are generally the same on the acting scale. But the black woman edges her out only a tad on the acting side. There really going to be a difference between a 9 and a 9.5?

There's also the situation where the black woman above and beyond outperforms all the white actresses by a substantial amount. Which I can only say....improbable. Hollywood is dominantly white and that allows for a number of young talent to show off their skill. I don't think there will ever be a time where we're in short supply of talented white actors, in spite of race, age, or sex.

And one last point. I wouldn't suppose that a role can only be performed by one actor, despite different levels of talent and qualifications for the role. I can point out 2 distinct examples from this franchise, for example. Daniel-Day Lewis was offered the part of Ra's first, before it went to Neeson. Ditto for Matt Damon as Harvey Dent. If I'm to be perfectly honest, looks-wise I think Neeson and Eckhart were the better choices. Acting-wise, I think it's the complete opposite. Not even remotely a close competition. Despite not having the best look for the respective roles, I actually would have preferred DDL and Damon. Did it change much? No, not really. We still got good performances and that's WITH "settling" for actors who weren't the first choice or maybe even the best for the role. Though as a plus, they did look like their comic book counterparts more.

So as you see, I really do not think it's so B&W or as easy you imagine it to be. Talent-wise, there's just too much out there to be concerned with "the very best of the best". In the end I do not think it matters given whomever's chosen is capable in their own right. Especially for a young to middle aged, beautiful white female, which is the second easiest type of actor to find. To answer my own question of "is it worth it to change race?", given the variables; I don't think it is.

Yeah, sorry, wish I hadn't said the 'uncomfortable' thing, but I appreciate your thorough answer Crook. I get more where you are coming from.
Acting abilities is down to taste and opinion as well, for instance, I'm very glad Matt Damon didn't get the role of Harvey/Two-face, I think he's a fine actor but I can't imagine him doing better than Ekhart. As for DDL, well, he is amazing, but I think it was better to have Ras as an older mentor figure other than a contemporary in age so would have probably cast Liam Neeson over DDL. Although, part of me wonders what he would've been like, so I may have cast him and worried about getting him to look like Ras later and cast aside notions of him being an older mentor, just a more experienced mentor.

To answer your question, yeah, I would cast the 9.5 model in this case, her skin colour is not that big a deal to me lookswise when it comes to Catwoman. I totally understand all your points, it's just that for Catwoman in particular, it wouldn't bother me to have that change. She would still look like Catwoman to me, so to me it's not a case of 'is it worth it?' as you say, I just don't think anything would be lost in translation in this instance.

I understand where you're coming from, but why bring it up when it won't even happen?

Because I wasn''t satisfied withe the answer that she should only be caucasian 'because it's like that in the comics.' I didn't think it was that important for that character and I thought it was an interesting question, would you sacrifice some of the details of the source for the better actor. As sais, I didn't know nolan didn't do auditions for any roles but Batman, so I didn't think it was that outlandish a proposition. who knows what nolan would be thinking for the role anyway, some non-caucasian actress might catch his eye in something, there's still a couple of years to go.

That's a pretty young age to be reading comics my friend. I also wouldn't trust wiki

Well, 'reading' was perhaps the wrong word or phrase, 'looking at the pictures', or 'having them read to me' would've been more accurate. My older brother got me that Giant sized collection of the first Ras al Ghul stories when I was 3. My sister told me I woke up from a nightmare in a kind of trance one night repeating the name 'Ras al Ghul..Ras al ghul..', pretty funny.

The Major: I think I answered your queries in this response too.

[Laderlappen]

Should only? Has ANYBODY said she should only be white?

[WeaponXProject]

We just want the actress to look like the character!!! Its not just the bloody race! I dont understand why some of you dont care about anything looking like the comics, and it bothers me that it bothers you that some of us do. Its based on the comic, not losely based on it.

I'm saying I don't think he cares.


God...can't we get back to candidates already.

[regwec]

Okay: Rosario Dawson.


;)

[Cunning Stunts]

I doubt race is at the forefront of his mind, but I don't doubt he'll subconsciously cast according to how the character has been portrayed for the great majority of her appearances.

It's more of an instinctive, natural (but selective) process rather than the mechanical method of carrying around a checklist of requirements, if that makes sense.

I completely agree here. I know the first instinct would likely be to look at white actresses, but I'm sure Nolan's if the situation arose, he'd just as soon keep a black, asian, hispanic (etc.) actress in mind. Same for most other roles.

We just want the actress to look like the character!!! Its not just the bloody race! I dont understand why some of you dont care about anything looking like the comics, and it bothers me that it bothers you that some of us do. Its based on the comic, not losely based on it.

It's not that we don't care, it's just that some of us feel that a skin color change is minute enough no to care whether or not it happens to a character. I mean really, simpe skin-color change doesn't alter character; It's not like making Catwoman black means she has to speak in ebonics and shoot people instead of use her whip and/or claws. Images change from comic to comic, even skin color every now and then, so I don't think "staying true to source material" requires that we don't have any skin-color alterations.

It's all about portrayal for me, really. I'm sure whatever Nolan does will be fine, whether or not Catwoman is white. Hell, as I said before, my top choices for the role are white.

[Laderlappen]

When I say you dont care, I mean its not important to you. Its not important at all to you that the actors look like the characters from the comics. You're not wrong for thinking that, thats just your opinion. For some of us it IS important. Its far from the most important thing in the world or ever in the movie. But cant you understand that its not completely unimportant to some people.
If there's one white actress that looks exaclty like the character and a black acterss that looks nothing like the character but is 0.001% better, cant you understand that some of us would prefer the white one?!!

[Cunning Stunts]

When I say you dont care, I mean its not important to you. Its not important at all to you that the actors look like the characters from the comics. You're not wrong for thinking that, thats just your opinion. For some of us it IS important. Its far from the most important thing in the world or ever in the movie. But cant you understand that its not completely unimportant to some people.
If there's one white actress that looks exaclty like the character and a black acterss that looks nothing like the character but is 0.001% better, cant you understand that some of us would prefer the white one?!!

None of us argued that. As a matter of fact, I even agreed with that statement, and you and I have opposing views on the matter.

[regwec]

We all understand that. But it is a matter of degree. I would say that Thandie Newton is a better physical representation of Selina Kyle than Scarlett Johanssen, for instance. She might be black, but she is an able respresentation of a feity, feline brunette.

It may be moot, but Harvey Dent, The Joker, Jonathan Crane, Alfred and Thomas Wayne looked little like their comicbook counterparts.

[Cunning Stunts]

We all understand that. But it is a matter of degree. I would say that Thandie Newton is a better physical representation of Selina Kyle than Scarlett Johanssen, for instance. She might be black, but she is an able respresentation of a feity, feline brunette.

It may be moot, but Harvey Dent, The Joker, Jonathan Crane, Alfred and Thomas Wayne looked little like their comicbook counterparts.

Especially Harvey, for me. I read a bunch of Two-Face-related comics prior to seeing The Dark Knight, and was shocked to see how his "Apollo Dent" deal wasn't touched on. Not that Aaron Eckhart's a bad-lookin' dude, but he just didn't look like Harvey.

Although, I feel he's got one of the most underrated performances of last year. The man amazed me.

[Laderlappen]

I cant speak for the other people so I'll just speak for myself. I think many of you think that its more important for me than it actually is. Its really a pretty small thing. Talent is much more important than the looks. I have complained about the Beckinsale suggestion many times but I can honeslty say she looks like the character. Im not a big fan of Thandie Newton but if she and Scarlett was equally talanted Id pick Newton because even if she's black, she still looks more like the character than Scarlett.

The reason there has been sucha big discussion is because 1) You think its more important to us than it actually is, 2) Race is a taboo topic and some of you thought it was because of racism.

[WeaponXProject]

Okay: Rosario Dawson.


;)

I am behind that pick as well.

I have complained about the Beckinsale suggestion many times but I can honeslty say she looks like the character. Im not a big fan of Thandie Newton but if she and Scarlett was equally talanted Id pick Newton because even if she's black, she still looks more like the character than Scarlett.


One of the more talented actresses selected, IMO, is Thandie Newton and I think she is a legitimate candidate. She's one of my top five no matter what people say about her looks.

[david icke]

Should only? Has ANYBODY said she should only be white?

Well, a couple of people have said she should only be white as there is no reason to deviate from the comics, due to there being an abundance of top class caucasian actresses fit for the job, and that there isn't that much of a degree of skill between a lot of actors for it to make a difference between some.
I was a little confused about some comments blanking out the possibility of a non-caucasian actress but am now fully clued up on their reasoning.

[KalMart]

Holy crap, we're still discussing ethnicity? :wow::oldrazz:

[Figs]

I find Thandie Newton very attractive and all but I think she's a little too skinny.

I'm not saying I want some actress with comic book cliche female curves, just someone with a little more meat on their bones...healthier I guess you could say.

Looking at pics of Newton as well as seeing her in movies, she's hot but too damn skinny.

[Crook]

I find Thandie Newton very attractive and all but I think she's a little too skinny.

I'm not saying I want some actress with comic book cliche female curves, just someone with a little more meat on their bones...healthier I guess you could say.
Why the hell not? :cmad:

[Figs]

Why the hell not? :cmad:

I always put that out there in prepared defense because their is always some sensitive type that will complain that it's unrealistic and even sexist. But in telling you that, I basically explained that was the only reason I said that and in all seriousness I would prefer a woman with a nice rack and a nice ass. Woot.

[Crook]

I always put that out there in prepared defense because their is always some sensitive type that will complain that it's unrealistic and even sexist. But in telling you that, I basically explained that was the only reason I said that and in all seriousness I would prefer a woman with a nice rack and a nice ass. Woot.
Haha, right on! Girls get the chiseled male leads, I think we deserve some eye-candy of our own. Especially with this franchise. We went from the likes of this:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9302/kimbasingergallery5.gif http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9239/basinger4b.jpg

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2763/michellepfeiffer3p.jpg http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3576/michellepfeiffer3.jpg

...to this:

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/7613/maggiegyllenhaal.jpg http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/5107/hotmaggie15s.jpg


No offense to anyone that's a fan of Maggie, but there's a huge, how shall I say it--- discrepancy in the female lead area? Personally I would just like to know wtf happened and if this will be corrected. :o

[Laderlappen]

The first 3 Batman movies(Burton, Shoemaker) had maybe THE 3 most goodlooking women of the late 80's and 90's. (if Winona was cast, THE imo 4 most goodlooking women of the 90's would have played Batman loveinterests).

The character Rachel Dawes was never supposed to be a "hottie". Many people complain about Maggie's looks, but honestly Katie was not much more goodlooking.
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/452/rd1t.jpg http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6595/rd2y.jpg

[[A]]

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6595/rd2y.jpg:heart:

[WeaponXProject]

I find Thandie Newton very attractive and all but I think she's a little too skinny. Looking at pics of Newton as well as seeing her in movies, she's hot but too damn skinny.

Well Newton looks the same as Pfieffer did in BR and I am okay with that.

[Ace of Knaves]

Pfieffer wasn't that skinny was she? Newton is waif-like.

[Crook]

The character Rachel Dawes was never supposed to be a "hottie".
Well, that's really only because they cast Katie. In a way, she "defined" how the character looked rather than the other way around.

Many people complain about Maggie's looks, but honestly Katie was not much more goodlooking.
In the film, you're right. But I think Katie is infinitely more beautiful than Maggie ever was. Katie has that cute and classy beauty look to her:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4765/katieholmesphotocoatemo.jpg http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6310/katieholmesinstylephoto.jpg

Pfieffer wasn't that skinny was she? Newton is waif-like.
Michelle was pretty damn thin:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1276/catwomanmichellepfeiffe.jpg

[Brian Braddock]

Pfieffer wasn't that skinny was she? Newton is waif-like.

Burton infamously insisted that Pfeiffer was given padding to give her an ass.

:hehe:

[Figs]

I guess it's been awhile since I've seen Batman Returns, I forgot that Pfeiffer was pretty thin herself.

Anyways, I don't have anything against Winona Ryder...I just don't think she's right at all for the part.

I've honestly seen most of the movies she's been in and although I've liked her since Beetlejuice and Heathers I don't see her acting range as being all that great. Even under a great director like Nolan I just don't see her bringing the maturity and sexual desire that Catwoman/Selina should have. I think the last few films I saw Winona in was A Scanner Darkly and The Darwin Awards...she still seems like a young cutey than a sexy 'woman'.

[RachelDawes]

Haha, right on! Girls get the chiseled male leads, I think we deserve some eye-candy of our own. Especially with this franchise. We went from the likes of this:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9302/kimbasingergallery5.gif http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9239/basinger4b.jpg

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2763/michellepfeiffer3p.jpg http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3576/michellepfeiffer3.jpg

...to this:

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/7613/maggiegyllenhaal.jpg http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/5107/hotmaggie15s.jpg


No offense to anyone that's a fan of Maggie, but there's a huge, how shall I say it--- discrepancy in the female lead area? Personally I would just like to know wtf happened and if this will be corrected. :o

Those are great pictures of Maggie, but I'm sure Catwoman will be more conventionally beautiful. If nothing else, I would think the studio would insist on it.

[WeaponXProject]

If nothing else, I would think the studio would insist on it.


The studio better have nothing to do with this movie that conflicts with what Nolan wants to do. He just made them 1 billion dollars! It should be up to him.

I do hope the actress is sexy or atleast beautiful behind to go with her acting ability.

I still have a hunch that Selina Kyle will just be introduced in this movie and begin to show her slide to crime by the end of the movie. I don't know I got a million different ideas on how this next movie will play out. I pretty much called the last movie besides no origin to the Joker and I didn't think Harvey would die...

[Laderlappen]

Well, that's really only because they cast Katie. In a way, she "defined" how the character looked rather than the other way around.


In the film, you're right. But I think Katie is infinitely more beautiful than Maggie ever was. Katie has that cute and classy beauty look to her:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4765/katieholmesphotocoatemo.jpg http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6310/katieholmesinstylephoto.jpg
Maybe Katie is a little cuter, but I really dont think she's all that. She's cute, but I wouldnt call her beautiful. The difference in looks between Maggie and Katie is VERY little if compared to Katie and Nicole/Michelle/Kim.
I think either Maggie dont care much about her looks, or she is terrible at styling herself. I can honestly say Katie is better at that.



Anyways, I don't have anything against Winona Ryder...I just don't think she's right at all for the part.

I've honestly seen most of the movies she's been in and although I've liked her since Beetlejuice and Heathers I don't see her acting range as being all that great. Even under a great director like Nolan I just don't see her bringing the maturity and sexual desire that Catwoman/Selina should have. I think the last few films I saw Winona in was A Scanner Darkly and The Darwin Awards...she still seems like a young cutey than a sexy 'woman'.I've always thought Winona was extremely sexy. I remember from when I was very young I thought Winona was her generations Marilyn Monroe.

[Figs]

Maybe Katie is a little cuter, but I really dont think she's all that. She's cute, but I wouldnt call her beautiful. The difference in looks between Maggie and Katie is VERY little if compared to Katie and Nicole/Michelle/Kim.
I think either Maggie dont care much about her looks, or she is terrible at styling herself. I can honestly say Katie is better at that.

I've always thought Winona was extremely sexy. I remember from when I was very young I thought Winona was her generations Marilyn Monroe.

Don't get me wrong, I think Winona Ryder is attractive. I just don't find her on that sexy because she's a 'mature woman' level. Not saying she isn't mature(shoplifting incident not withstanding...lol), just she still seems young in a visual sense. I guess that's a good thing for her that she is aging well though.

[Laderlappen]

I think I know what you mean Figs. She was very young when she was in her prime career-wise, and have always had that "young" look. Many believe that the reason her career has gone downhill is because she needs her youth.
But she has that personality that reminds me alot of Selina.

[Crook]

The studio better have nothing to do with this movie that conflicts with what Nolan wants to do. He just made them 1 billion dollars! It should be up to him.
It should be up to him how sexy Selina is? If at all? That shouldn't even be an option, let alone a decision. :o


I've always thought Winona was extremely sexy. I remember from when I was very young I thought Winona was her generations Marilyn Monroe.
Whoa, hey now. Marilyn was something else entirely. I think the only person that's come close to her status is Jolie and Stone. Winona was never really a symbol of anything from what I recall.

[RachelDawes]

The studio better have nothing to do with this movie that conflicts with what Nolan wants to do. He just made them 1 billion dollars! It should be up to him.

I would prefer it if WB just let Nolan work his magic too but if he were to cast say, Hilary Swank as Catwoman someone should step in...

[Cunning Stunts]

I think Nolan and WB both have people watching the internet and the fanbase enough to have an idea who would be at least somewhat accepted. I think if someone as questionable as Eliza Dushku, for example, were on their table- given our ready-made lack of reception for her- they'd push her out (not that she'd be in the running anyway).

[jmc]

I think Nolan and WB both have people watching the internet and the fanbase enough to have an idea who would be at least somewhat accepted. I think if someone as questionable as Eliza Dushku, for example, were on their table- given our ready-made lack of reception for her- they'd push her out (not that she'd be in the running anyway).

I think everyone knows Angelina Jolie is always going to come out on top of any Catwoman so I don't see what point it is having someone browsing the boards when the answer is pretty much already a given. Still I'm doubtful they'd be bothering to read what a bunch of fans think in the first place.

[Cunning Stunts]

Well, I never said they'd look for the answer on the internet. Just that they're gauging reception based on internet speculation. I think Angelina's out of the question, honestly. Nolan obviously recognizes real unique talent, and I don't think I've ever seen Angelina do anything that a million other actresses couldn't do.

[Lucid]

----

[Cunning Stunts]

Nolan clearly doesn't care about matching his actors to the comic. Heath Ledger's bone structure looks nothing like the Joker in any incarnation. The Joker has always had long, pointy features and Ledger has soft, round features. Nolan doesn't care about looks. The arguments in this thread like "she's not sexy enough" or "she's not tough enough" are pointless. There's no way that Nolan is being as picky as us fans would be. He's casting general physicality and then the big one, acting ability (as he sees it).

Also, may I just add, why the hell are we talking about this? This movie's like 5 years away.

QF 100% T! :up:

Unfortunately, nobody here ever seems to accept that...

[Laderlappen]

Nolan clearly doesn't care about matching his actors to the comic. Heath Ledger's bone structure looks nothing like the Joker in any incarnation. The Joker has always had long, pointy features and Ledger has soft, round features. Nolan doesn't care about looks. The arguments in this thread like "she's not sexy enough" or "she's not tough enough" are pointless. There's no way that Nolan is being as picky as us fans would be. He's casting general physicality and then the big one, acting ability (as he sees it).

Also, may I just add, why the hell are we talking about this? This movie's like 5 years away.I think thats a little different. I dont think we can compare different bone structure with color of skin. H still made Heath look like the Joker. He gave him the white face, red lips and green hair. There is nothing that really says the Joker has to have green hair. few clowns have green hair, and I dont think Ive seen a jokercard with green hair. He added it because thats the Joker we know, not because its important to the character. My honest opinion I think the Joker from the comics often looked ridiculous, it didnt bother me at all. Of course Nolan cares about looks. If he wouldnt we would see Kate Winslet, Naomi Watts or Amy Adams in the next movie. Is he as picky as some fans are lookwise? No, because they are way too picky about the looks and very little picky about the acting.