The Fate of Two Face

[DeGenerate10]

Trust me, more than likely he'll be alive. I don't think a fall of that height would be enough to kill anyone, especially since it wasn't on hard ground. Afterall, Batman got right back up after his fall.

Batman had the body armor to protect him plus his body hadn't gone through what Harvery's went through.

[Mr. Joker]

Still, Harvey had made some sort of recovery when in the hospital & I still doubt that even in his condition he'd die. There was still no hard ground.

[Mangelo]

I just saw it for the second time tonight. You can see Harvey's chest moving. I saw it with 4 other people, and they all said the same thing. As far as the citizens of Gotham City know, Harvey was unaccounted for when Gotham General Hospital exploded, and was presumed dead. That's why Gordon has a memorial for him. Did they lock him up in Arkham? That I don't know. But if Nolan wasn't thinking about bringing Eckhart back for another movie, why would he make the fate of Dent so ambiguous? Everyone has the right to their opinions, but as a Batman fan, I'm puzzled that so many people on here want Dent to be dead because his story arc was complete.

[Reflectionist]

But what can they do with him in the third movie? Have him shoot more corrupt cops? There really isn't too much more to tell with his story, and certainly not enough for him to be a main villain.

I believe he is not dead. Containing this theory to TDK alone has been done here already, with very valid points brought up (Maroni's Fall compared to Harvey's, for instance...also the vague dialogue about it). The case for him returning for the next movie, however, is this: psychology. Like everything else in these movies, the movie is held up, by psychology. The theme of the movies. Redemption should clearly play a big part in the next one. If Harvey is alive, then his efforts will be continuing his vengeance on namely Batman and Gordon. He's already shown himself (Maroni's Driver, Gordon's Family) to not let anyone else stand in the way of his (a)venging Rachel's Death. Also, with his continued attacks on Gordon, and by extension the GPD, he puts Batman in an awkward ethical position: Attempt to rehabilitate and reign in Harvey with forgiveness and compassion, or attempt to stop him with brute force (after all, the Joker did a great job of convincing Harvey to "Introduce a little Anarchy")? This plays into Harvey's theme of chance and fairness as well. It's a dichotomy Harvey couldn't possibly pass up. If Batman focuses his efforts on rehabilitating Harvey, Harvey may react with a sort of kindness (*shudder* a la Forever's "You've always been a good friend to me, Bruce."), especially if he finds out that Batman is Bruce Wayne. Harvey respects Bruce, and can identify with him, but hates Batman. The reveal there would throw Bats into a new light. However, to do so would be, in Batman's eyes, to appear to be condoning his attacks on Gordon, Gordon's Family and the GPD. Batman cannot tolerate that, and has to protect them too. Even if Batman is the GPD's priority--in fact, no matter what the police think of him, Batman still has his ethics. He protects the police, and he has immense respect for Gordon. That wouldn't fly well with Harvey at all. Trying to reconcile that, and redeem all parties (especially while balancing the Mob, continuing to round up the Arkham inmates, and reassuring the public after the pure anarchy of the Joker) will be a big theme, and the efforts could lead to an expansion, or filling out of Harvey's Two-Face persona. In TDK, he comes off as a Big Bad Harv kind of character, at least after his scarring. But if things work out as above, it comes off as very Dark Victory-esque.


There's plenty of story to tell.

[Spider-Fan]

Mangelo, I saw it again today, and his chest wasn't moving.

[EagleVision]

Guarantee he's not dead. I thought so when I watched it the 1st time. But the second time around watching it, I'm convinced he's not. If Batman survived that fall then so did Dent without question. The main thing was that the public not know about his fall from grace so that hopelessness wouldn't consume Gotham. Guarantee he'll be the main villain in the third film. Bet on it!

[Mr. Joker]

I didn't pay attention, but even so, I still think he was only unconscious.

[JP]

So I guess since people have so little intelligence, from now on when a director kills a character in a movie they have to have in big bold subtitles "THIS CHARACTER IS DEAD"

Because having a character laying dead on the ground followed by a funeral just isn't enough. :huh:

[Mr. Joker]

You are one to talk about intelligence.

[Spider-Fan]

Guarantee he's not dead. I thought so when I watched it the 1st time. But the second time around watching it, I'm convinced he's not. If Batman survived that fall then so did Dent without question. The main thing was that the public not know about his fall from grace so that hopelessness wouldn't consume Gotham. Guarantee he'll be the main villain in the third film. Bet on it!

What do you mean if Batman survived it, Dent did? Was Dent wearing body armor? Did Dent fall from Wayne's penthouse, land on a car, and live?

Batman living is not proof of Harvey living. Different cases. There is no reason to keep him around, and his death and cover up was used as a symbol. Him living makes the symbolism of the film much weaker.

Let's also remember Dent had no reaction when Batman moved his face. No facial movement, breath, graon, etc. Also no chest movement. He is dead.

[Parquagh]

So be it. :ninja:

While we seem to have hit a lull in the exchange, allow your Not-So-Friendly Neighborhood Psychotic Comedian to take opinion on the matter:
I say dispense with all the flighty ambiguity options and cut to the chase. Harvey Dent/Two Face/The Dude Who Batman Tackled Off the Ledge, whatever you want to call him: Dead or Alive?

...or need it be more complex than that?

thanks Mr. J!

mmm interesting, I love the diversity of ideas and points in this thread, even if we have a "will Lucious keep on working for Wayne" thread we would find many points saying yes and no...:woot:

[immilesaway]

commissioner gordan said that harvey didn't take any of the pain killers to numb the pain. so throughout his entire screentime as two-face, harvey was in a considerable amount of pain... i mean just look at his face! that ish looks like it hurts like crazy. i'm pretty sure, alittle bit more pain, would've put him into shock, or killed him... he's most liekly dead from the fall, not becuase of the height of the fall, but probably because he was already in agonizing pain, and the fall was the last straw on teh camels back.

and i agree with earlier comments, he wouldn't be able to carry on an entire movie, he's villian-agenda is too small, especially in this movie.

[I Am The Knight]

Anything goes...I hope he's alive...And apparently the majority of you are hoping for the same...Looking at the poll...

[JP]

What do you mean if Batman survived it, Dent did? Was Dent wearing body armor? Did Dent fall from Wayne's penthouse, land on a car, and live?

Batman living is not proof of Harvey living. Different cases. There is no reason to keep him around, and his death and cover up was used as a symbol. Him living makes the symbolism of the film much weaker.

Let's also remember Dent had no reaction when Batman moved his face. No facial movement, breath, graon, etc. Also no chest movement. He is dead.

:up:

[immilesaway]

commissioner gordan said that harvey didn't take any of the pain killers to numb the pain. so throughout his entire screentime as two-face, harvey was in a considerable amount of pain... i mean just look at his face! that ish looks like it hurts like crazy. i'm pretty sure, alittle bit more pain, would've put him into shock, or killed him... he's most liekly dead from the fall, not becuase of the height of the fall, but probably because he was already in agonizing pain, and the fall was the last straw on teh camels back.

and i agree with earlier comments, he wouldn't be able to carry on an entire movie, he's villian-agenda is too small, especially in this movie.

[rogue trooper]

..something I wish Nolan would have done is to have shown the coin laying around nearby, and depending which side it landed on, that would hint if Harvey died or not. Maybe if it had landed on the non-marked side, it meant that there was a chance he lived.

[SuperBatman]

Well the Coin did land on the Clear side.

[Spider-Fan]

The coin was not determining his fate at the time. He was flipping for Gordon when Batman bull rushed him.

[SuperBatman]

The coin was not determining his fate at the time. He was flipping for Gordon when Batman bull rushed him.

Actually he was flipping for Gordon's Son if you want to get Technical.

[Spider-Fan]

Actually he was flipping for Gordon's Son if you want to get Technical.

Whatever. Point is he wasn't flipping for himself when the coin flip was disrupted, thus the result is immaterial regarding Dent's fate.

[bullets]

..something I wish Nolan would have done is to have shown the coin laying around nearby, and depending which side it landed on, that would hint if Harvey died or not. Maybe if it had landed on the non-marked side, it meant that there was a chance he lived.



The coin actually did land on the "lives" side. I think it makes more sense that Two-Face would die though .

With that kind of burn damage you can't really survive without medical attention . It would puss and be infected.

Harvey was in agonizing pain and death would be a release.

Gordon basically gave a eulogy saying he died a hero . I think he wouldn't do that if he knew Dent might debunk this by making a reappearance . Especially when Gordon can't trust many people in his unit or in any of the gotham crime fighting departments.

The police had the whole place surrounded and Dent was out of his mind. I dont think they[Batman and Gordon] could of negotiated something in such little time .

[Vile]

The coin landed on 'good heads' for Gordon's son, yes.

Dent himself landed scarred side up...death? No to mention that after seeing it 6 times I still havent seen his chest moving...the guy is dead, folks. We have a corpse.

Unless you really believe, for the sake of believing, he held his breath for about 10 mins then managed to sneak away amidst a hundred cops. Oh, and Gordon never noticed there was no body in casket...

And besides, what would the cover up be if he were alive? They gave the man a funeral! What? Did they ship him off to Mexico? Alaska? The moon? "Please Harvey, dont come back to Gotham anytime soon..."

[Spider-Fan]

The coin landed on 'good heads' for Gordon's son, yes.

Dent himself landed scarred side up...death? No to mention that after seeing it 6 times I still havent seen his chest moving...the guy is dead, folks. We have a corpse.

Unless you really believe, for the sake of believing, he held his breath for about 10 mins then managed to sneak away amidst a hundred cops. Oh, and Gordon never noticed there was no body in casket...

And besides, what would the cover up be if he were alive? They gave the man a funeral! What? Did they ship him off to Mexico? Alaska? The moon? "Please Harvey, dont come back to Gotham anytime soon..."

Agreed. But, there was a lot of denial about Ra's dying in BB, so it doesn't shock me that people are in denial.

It is after all, the first stage of grief :cwink:

[Vile]

Agreed. But, there was a lot of denial about Ra's dying in BB, so it doesn't shock me that people are in denial.

It is after all, the first stage of grief :cwink:

LOL! too true.

But hey...I can somewhat understand Ra's. The camera didnt hover over his corpse for 10 mins like it did Dent!

[chaseter]

Wouldn't Two Face being alive, specifically for the 3rd movie, somewhat tarnish the end of TDK?
Yes it would.

Two Face symbolized what happens to good men who go to far. Batman saw this and it realized it took a good man, Harvey Dent, to die before him and Gordon realized this. Two Face dying summed up the entire movie's theme and message.

[Spider-Fan]

LOL! too true.

But hey...I can somewhat understand Ra's. The camera didnt hover over his corpse for 10 mins like it did Dent!

True, but the giant explosion doesn't help his cause much :oldrazz:

Dent would almost had to have been some kind of olympic level swimmer to not breath as long as he was on the ground in the movie :woot:

[Vile]

Don't get me started on Doctor Octopus... =)

[JP]

LOL! too true.

But hey...I can somewhat understand Ra's. The camera didnt hover over his corpse for 10 mins like it did Dent!

lol :oldrazz:

[JP]

Characters fans refuse to believe are dead:

Doc Ock
Venom
Toad
Sabretooth
Cyclops
Ra's

And now Two Face

[Yr Blues]

This is a triumph. I'm making a note here: HUGE SUCCESS.

[kevin2323]

The coin landed on 'good heads' for Gordon's son, yes.

Dent himself landed scarred side up...death? No to mention that after seeing it 6 times I still havent seen his chest moving...the guy is dead, folks. We have a corpse.

Unless you really believe, for the sake of believing, he held his breath for about 10 mins then managed to sneak away amidst a hundred cops. Oh, and Gordon never noticed there was no body in casket...

And besides, what would the cover up be if he were alive? They gave the man a funeral! What? Did they ship him off to Mexico? Alaska? The moon? "Please Harvey, dont come back to Gotham anytime soon..."



Saw this movie 3 times alread and:

1. Joker basically says that he wouldnt let batman capture him without having someone to do his work for him.

2. Two face fell from about the same height as maroni. Maroni landed on his feet and broke them, two face could have easily landed and became unconscious. Also if you want to say thew whole 10 minute thing look at maroni he basically broke both legs and was walking around using a cane? are you kidding? so they could have him sitting there for howhever long the dialoge was for.

3.harvey didnt die a hero he lived long enough to become the villain hence why they cover it up and make it seem he died a hero.

4. It is a memorial for harvey not a funeral there is a differece and their is no casket.

5. The dialogue between batman and gordon at the end by two face mentions nothing about two face being dead they only talk about how to cover up his murders without changing his whote knight appeal to gotham.

6.batman tells gordon to call it in. So the entire squad that was there were re-directed to go after batman instad of helping gordon which means none pf them see two faces body.Gordon also tells two face that he only set a perimeter and that the cops only know that there is a situation not who or what the situation is.

7. If Two face dies batman breaks his one rule and it defeats the whole morality aspect of the movie. Basically making Joker the winner.Batman doesnt kill period. If not he wouldve killed joker from the start but he doesnt that is how it is in the comics joker wants him to break his rule and kill but he doesnt break it. Even the Joker says that batman is incorruptable at the end of the movie.

oh and jp your intelligence is far more than any of ours since your actually going to watch dragon ball the movie.

Goku with a mohawk/dinosaur lookin haircut=greatness.

[Legion]

I think it would take away from the ending if Two Face is still alive. It could have been interesting to see Harvey getting help to become his old self again only to have a relapse. But I thought the movie was great the way it was so im happy.

[VII7]

wait wait wasnt eckhart signed on for 2 films?

[Vile]

Dude. He's dead. He wasnt breathing.

I'm sorry, but he's dead. A corpse is a corpse.

Does that mean the writer's cant bring him back? Of course not! Writers can do anything they want!

But that doesnt change the fact that Harvey Dent DIED.


And while yes I agree with the whole 'one rule' thing...again, take a look at the Joker goon in the garbage truck Batman hit head on, then slammed into a concrete ceiling.

[kevin2323]

harvey dent died two face didnt.

Ok so people that are knocked unconscious or in a coma are automatically dead.

Wow amazing insight to the human body.

[kevin2323]

double post giggles.

[NewYorkSpider]

wait wait wasnt eckhart signed on for 2 films?

No. I don't even think anyone is signed for a third movie.

[kevin2323]

I thing someone had a link of eckhart saying he was signed on for 2 films. hmmm dammit I need to find it.

[Legion]

harvey dent died two face didnt.

Ok so people that are knocked unconscious or in a coma are automatically dead.

Wow amazing insight to the human body.

Well... if you can drop from a certain height and break your legs when you land on them, knowing you're about to be dropped; what happens when you're unexpectedly thrown from the same height and land on your head, neck, or back?

[Vile]

You're right. The man wasnt breathing, but thats cool Gordon and Bats will chat about the good that was Harvey and not worry about the lack of oxygen getting to his brain. Then Bats will run off and Gordon will continue talking...still not worried about Harvey...ya know...needing air to live.

Then they ship him to Mexico or someplace and hope and pray he doesnt decide to come back...since they give him a fond farewell in Gotham and golly gee Harvey turning back up would sure make a mess of things.

But for the sake argument and Harvey's oxygen starved brain, lets assume he did come back! What would he do? Nolan's Two-Face is NOT going to start a crime family NOR commit crimes that have to do with the number 2! So he's go for revenge...again...but considering he knocked off pretty much everyone that he wanted too...well, hopefully Man-Bat will make an appearance to fill-in some time.

[Hamill-Joker]

Ok, saw the movie again today. I can debunk the breathing.

It is a trick of the eye and camera. As the camera moves in slightly closer to the body, it looks as if he is breathing, but it is just the movement of the camera in on the scene. The light shirt against the dark background doesn't help any either.

[kevin2323]

I agree you can die as well. I just hate that everyone is saying he is definitively dead. They don't reference him as being dead at all in the final dialogue with batman. IMO there are more indication that he is alive then dead.

[Hamill-Joker]

What indicates he is alive?

[Vile]

They do reference him being dead - WITH THE CORPSE.

[StevieNicks1988]

I haven't posted in forever but I just thought I'd put in my thoughts. So....Two-Face died. They made him badass as hell, looked badass and acted badass and he died within' what? Thirty minutes? Okay, so even in just those thirty minutes he put the Schusucker Two-Face to shame, but still, it's Two-Face! Alongside Joker, one of the best badasses in Batman lore. I liked the way they handled everything, even the transformation which fit the movie perfectly, but the end? C'mon. I say it's possible he can come back and I hope they find a way, but I'm betting on him staying dead. Nolan's pretty good and keeping some sense of realism with everything in these movies and bringing people back from the 'dead' would ruin all that, imo.

[AnorexicBatman]

Maroni... DEAD
Gambol... DEAD
The Russian... DEAD
Crime families... BROKEN BY INTERNAL CONFLICT

Who better to take control of the mob than Harvey Two-Face and slowly making them destroy each other inside out. At the same time, a new charecer calling himself Black Mask appears wanting to rid Gotham of "freaks" and return it to the Pre-Batman Begins situation

[Venom 1988]

Maroni... DEAD
Gambol... DEAD
The Russian... DEAD
Crime families... BROKEN BY INTERNAL CONFLICT

Who better to take control of the mob than Harvey Two-Face and slowly making them destroy each other inside out. At the same time, a new charecer calling himself Black Mask appears wanting to rid Gotham of "freaks" and return it to the Pre-Batman Begins situation

Except Black Mask would be doing the opposite....he would be embracing the freak takeover...

[Rogzilla]

They do reference him being dead - WITH THE CORPSE.
The body never established as dead or alive. The body that I saw breathing and my fiancee saw the eye move under its lid when Batman flipped his head.

Dude, relax. Its just a difference of opinion. There is plenty of evidence for both sides of the argument.

Besides, don't you think this is what Nolan wants? Ambiguity? The ability and freedom to take a third film anyway he (or another director) wants? If Two-Face died and they thought of a great story for him, they are screwed. If he lived but they can't think of what to do with him, wouldn't people be disappointed? The only person who truly knows is Nolan.

[kevin2323]

They do reference him being dead - WITH THE CORPSE.

Did batman check his pulse and say he is dead Gordon now what?


NO

therefore it is not a corpse.

[Hamill-Joker]

Yep, a bunch of criminals will join up with an Ex-DISTRICT ATTORNEY

Plus, they can't join a dead man.

Two-Face... DEAD

[Hamill-Joker]

Did batman check his pulse and say he is dead Gordon now what?


NO

therefore it is not a corpse.

When did they check anyone's pulse in this movie?

You could make an argument for a ton of characters in the movie that they are not dead if you wanted to go with checking pulses.

I could argue that Rachel, Maroni, Gambol, The Judge, etc... are all alive if I wanted to.

[kevin2323]

lol I am not even going to waste my time.

[Vile]

Did batman check his pulse and say he is dead Gordon now what?


NO

therefore it is not a corpse.

Did they honestly really need to? When there is a corpse at your feet, do you REALLY need both characters poking at it with a stick? Was it REALLY so ambiguous a scene that it NEEDED both Gordon and Batman breaking out the BatLife Detector and plugging Harvey in?

Gordon and Bats speeches, ALL of 'em were proof enough if you just accept the fact that NOLAN KILLED OFF TWO-FACE.

If you dont...well, thats fine but the evidence in support of his death vastly outweighs that of his magically being alive.

People are seeing what they want to see - be it an eye-movement, breathing, a magical musical number, whatever. Doesnt change the fact that he's dead.

[Hamill-Joker]

If you want to have an ambiguous death, you do what they did with Ras in Batman Begins. Off-screen death/no body.

If you want to show that a villain died, you have him laying there with Batman or Gordon showing no sign of helping him. He was their friend once you know, Batman wouldn't just turn his head and do nothing else.

He wouldn't turn his dead period cause he might have a big time neck injury if he was still alive.

And I already debunked the breathing. It was a trick the camera plays on the scene.

[Boom]

Let's put it this way:

Let's say Dent survived. He would be held accountable for his crimes. He would be tried, and people would find out what he had become. I mean, what else would happen?

*Gordon walks into Harvey's hospital room*

Gordon: Okay, Harvey. The public cannot know that you've completely lost it. So Batman's going to take the rap for your murders. Just pretend to be sane again.

The ending only works if Dent is dead. Only then would people never know what he did. If he survived, you'd bet your ass he'd go to court and the whole thing would go public.

[AnorexicBatman]

Correction, Harvey Dent... DEAD
The rest is ambiguous but Harvey is DEAD!

Plus, this is Gotham pal, thugs will work for SATAN or SANTA provided they are paid in buckets of cash!

[kevin2323]

my points have nothing to do with breathing eye twitching or anything else. No the the death arguments do not outweigh the alive ones here is proof:

There's a clear conflict here. Both sides have valid points:

HARVEY IS DEAD:
-A three story fall is lethal for most people. Batman was wearing armor.
-Batman had to act quickly, even if it meant going against his rule and killing Harvey
-Why would Batman sacrifice his name if Harvey weren't dead? If he came back to life, that'd make Batman's sacrifice a little pointless
-Technically, Harvey's story has been wrapped up. He has undergone his transformation, and we can see that the Joker made his point. Rachel is gone, and Harvey experienced his downfall as a result of his corruption. What further motives can he possibly have if he returns in a sequel? Is he just going to claim revenge the entire time?

HARVEY IS ALIVE:
-We never see his casket/body at a funeral
-We never get confirmation of his death
-Batman never actively breaks his rule thus far in terms of premeditated killing
-We don't know how Harvey landed. Maroni fell from a few stories and just suffered some broken legs. Why should Harvey be an exception?
-It is possible that Harvey is locked away somewhere with no public exposure
-"Madness is like gravity -- all it needs is a little push." Perhaps this alludes to how Two-Face may return in a sequel as someone with more motives than merely revenge. Perhaps now he has become even more deadly, killing for the sake of being an agent of chaos. Like the Joker said, "chaos is fair" -- and we know that Harvey is all about chance, as it is "unbiased and unprejudiced."


Basically, either side here could be right. I think Nolan left these points up in the air to give himself options. And these options do not, in any way, harm The Dark Knight's quality. So really, it's a smart move. Nolan isn't one to make obviously glaring mistakes (I'd hope). He dealt with Two-Face this way for a reason. It's only a matter of time before we get any clarity from this ambiguity. I'm anxious to hear from Nolan himself what he intended the audience to get from Two Face's demise.


mine:

Saw this movie 3 times alread and:

1. Joker basically says that he wouldnt let batman capture him without having someone to do his work for him.

2. Two face fell from about the same height as maroni. Maroni landed on his feet and broke them, two face could have easily landed and became unconscious. Also if you want to say thew whole 10 minute thing look at maroni he basically broke both legs and was walking around using a cane? are you kidding? so they could have him sitting there for howhever long the dialoge was for.

3.harvey didnt die a hero he lived long enough to become the villain hence why they cover it up and make it seem he died a hero.

4. It is a memorial for harvey not a funeral there is a differece and their is no casket.

5. The dialogue between batman and gordon at the end by two face mentions nothing about two face being dead they only talk about how to cover up his murders without changing his white knight appeal to gotham.

6.batman tells gordon to call it in. So the entire squad that was there were re-directed to go after batman instad of helping gordon which means none pf them see two faces body.Gordon also tells two face that he only set a perimeter and that the cops only know that there is a situation not who or what the situation is.

7. If Two face dies batman breaks his one rule and it defeats the whole morality aspect of the movie. Basically making Joker the winner.Batman doesnt kill period. If not he wouldve killed joker from the start but he doesnt that is how it is in the comics joker wants him to break his rule and kill but he doesnt break it. Even the Joker says that batman is incorruptable at the end of the movie.

oh and jp your intelligence is far more than any of ours since your actually going to watch dragon ball the movie.


pretty much what I stated a couple pages ago. Argue all you want his "death" is not definitive and left WIDE OPEN.

[Hamill-Joker]

Correction, Harvey Dent... DEAD
The rest is ambiguous but Harvey is DEAD!

Plus, this is Gotham pal, thugs will work for SATAN or SANTA provided they are paid in buckets of cash!

No, Two-Face is dead. He kind of fell out of a building, down 4 floors. Like 40 feet.

And my name isn't pal. :)

[Nirvana]

He's dead.

[kevin2323]

Let's put it this way:

Let's say Dent survived. He would be held accountable for his crimes. He would be tried, and people would find out what he had become. I mean, what else would happen?

*Gordon walks into Harvey's hospital room*

Gordon: Okay, Harvey. The public cannot know that you've completely lost it. So Batman's going to take the rap for your murders. Just pretend to be sane again.

The ending only works if Dent is dead. Only then would people never know what he did. If he survived, you'd bet your ass he'd go to court and the whole thing would go public.


Have you ever heard of Arkham Asylum?

[Hamill-Joker]

He's dead.

QFT

[kevin2323]

He's dead.


you convinced me....


OH WAIT!


-_-

[Vile]

Have you ever heard of Arkham Asylum?


So they are going to lock up Dent and ...what? Throw away the key? Tie him to a radiator in the basement? Concrete the door closed...brick it up?

Dude.

[burnerswitch]

I actually bought the book that has the concept art and the script and it clearly says:

"Dent lies at the bottom of the hole, his neck broken. DEAD."

I really don't think that can swing any other way.

[Boom]

Have you ever heard of Arkham Asylum?
He'd still have to be tried in court, with a ruling of insanity.

[combusticator]

my points have nothing to do with breathing eye twitching or anything else. No the the death arguments do not outweigh the alive ones here is proof:

There's a clear conflict here. Both sides have valid points:

HARVEY IS DEAD:
-A three story fall is lethal for most people. Batman was wearing armor.
-Batman had to act quickly, even if it meant going against his rule and killing Harvey
-Why would Batman sacrifice his name if Harvey weren't dead? If he came back to life, that'd make Batman's sacrifice a little pointless
-Technically, Harvey's story has been wrapped up. He has undergone his transformation, and we can see that the Joker made his point. Rachel is gone, and Harvey experienced his downfall as a result of his corruption. What further motives can he possibly have if he returns in a sequel? Is he just going to claim revenge the entire time?

HARVEY IS ALIVE:
-We never see his casket/body at a funeral
-We never get confirmation of his death
-Batman never actively breaks his rule thus far in terms of premeditated killing
-We don't know how Harvey landed. Maroni fell from a few stories and just suffered some broken legs. Why should Harvey be an exception?
-It is possible that Harvey is locked away somewhere with no public exposure
-"Madness is like gravity -- all it needs is a little push." Perhaps this alludes to how Two-Face may return in a sequel as someone with more motives than merely revenge. Perhaps now he has become even more deadly, killing for the sake of being an agent of chaos. Like the Joker said, "chaos is fair" -- and we know that Harvey is all about chance, as it is "unbiased and unprejudiced."


Basically, either side here could be right. I think Nolan left these points up in the air to give himself options. And these options do not, in any way, harm The Dark Knight's quality. So really, it's a smart move. Nolan isn't one to make obviously glaring mistakes (I'd hope). He dealt with Two-Face this way for a reason. It's only a matter of time before we get any clarity from this ambiguity. I'm anxious to hear from Nolan himself what he intended the audience to get from Two Face's demise.


mine:

Saw this movie 3 times alread and:

1. Joker basically says that he wouldnt let batman capture him without having someone to do his work for him.

2. Two face fell from about the same height as maroni. Maroni landed on his feet and broke them, two face could have easily landed and became unconscious. Also if you want to say thew whole 10 minute thing look at maroni he basically broke both legs and was walking around using a cane? are you kidding? so they could have him sitting there for howhever long the dialoge was for.

3.harvey didnt die a hero he lived long enough to become the villain hence why they cover it up and make it seem he died a hero.

4. It is a memorial for harvey not a funeral there is a differece and their is no casket.

5. The dialogue between batman and gordon at the end by two face mentions nothing about two face being dead they only talk about how to cover up his murders without changing his white knight appeal to gotham.

6.batman tells gordon to call it in. So the entire squad that was there were re-directed to go after batman instad of helping gordon which means none pf them see two faces body.Gordon also tells two face that he only set a perimeter and that the cops only know that there is a situation not who or what the situation is.

7. If Two face dies batman breaks his one rule and it defeats the whole morality aspect of the movie. Basically making Joker the winner.Batman doesnt kill period. If not he wouldve killed joker from the start but he doesnt that is how it is in the comics joker wants him to break his rule and kill but he doesnt break it. Even the Joker says that batman is incorruptable at the end of the movie.

oh and jp your intelligence is far more than any of ours since your actually going to watch dragon ball the movie.


pretty much what I stated a couple pages ago. Argue all you want his "death" is not definitive and left WIDE OPEN.

I do think it's funny how set in stone those that "know" he's dead. I really agree that Nolan left it open for options, and optimism makes me hope he'll be back (because they COULD do something more with his story...last time I checked comic book stories had MULTIPLE HIGH-QUALITY stories about different characters, not just ONE), but realism makes me assume they probably WOULDN'T bring him back.

But to say I know for sure he'll be back, is kinda...ridiculous!

I never once thought Doc Ock somehow survived, or Venom or even Ras, but this is the first time I was really confused.

[kevin2323]

He'd still have to be tried in court, with a ruling of insanity.


Have you seen the movie??? Batman takes the blame for his killings so he wouldn't go to court.

[Vile]

Le sigh.

[Gianakin_]

Have you seen the movie??? Batman takes the blame for his killings so he wouldn't go to court.

What??? Is that new levels of reaching I'm being witness of?

[Vile]

It's getting pretty deep, dude.

[Hamill-Joker]

Ugh, this thread has become a joke.

This is like the bickering between The Dark Knight camp and The Godfather camp on IMDB.com, which is quite hilarious and recommended checking out.

Also, does anyone know how deluded the beginning of Batman 3 would be if they had to explain the whole Dent is alive theory.

[StrainedEyes]

I am surprised at the amount of people that require a casket, someone saying "He's gone", or someone checking a pulse, to believe a character is dead.

Nolan is a smart director, he doesn't need to stoop to such mediocre methods to say a character has died.

[JP]

This thread is ridiculous.

[Vile]

Indeedy.

[JP]

This was seriously the least ambiguous comic book movie death I've ever seen next to the Green Goblin and Harry Osborn.

[StrainedEyes]

This was seriously the least ambiguous comic book movie death I've ever seen next to the Green Goblin and Harry Osborn.

But.. But the breathing!!! :csad: :o

[JP]

I see no breathing. :cmad:

[Spider-Bat]

you didn't see a body in the coffin. I think he's still alive. He was too good, and was finally brought to life the right way to just let him die. He should return in 3. He looked beautiful, Eckhardt is Two-Face, he is great as Face. Dent/Face just jumped off the page it was so cool to see his bulging eye and how evil it looked when he got mad. It would be a total waste to let Two-Face die.

[StrainedEyes]

you didn't see a body in the coffin. I think he's still alive. He was too good, and was finally brought to life the right way to just let him die. He should return in 3. He looked beautiful, Eckhardt is Two-Face, he is great as Face. Dent/Face just jumped off the page it was so cool to see his bulging eye and how evil it looked when he got mad. It would be a total waste to let Two-Face die.

Oh... My... God... :whatever:

I didn't see Bruce's parents in a coffin, or Chill, or Loeb, or Lau, or the guy Joker sent to be fed to the dogs, or the pencil trick guy, or Ra's, or the DA from Begins, or any number of other characters killed in these two movie. Maybe they are all planning a big reunion in the 3rd one, with Harvey doing the organizing.

[kevin2323]

This thread is ridiculous.


Your sig is rediculous

[JP]

:huh:

[JP]

Also, if he was alive not only would the pain of his wound be so unbearably excruciating, but his face would be open to so many infections, and his eye would dry out for lack of any lids.

Realistically someone with that bad an injury would not survive long without medical attention.


But of course, Batman and Gordon didn't check his pulse and then say "Yup, he's dead" and we didn't see a coffin with his body in it. So he must have been taken to the Asylum were no one, not even the many people who work there would know. Nope, just Bats and Gordon. Those silly tricksters.

And then he can come back in the third movie and take even more revenge on the people who did him wrong for 2 more hours!

[kevin2323]

Also, if he was alive not only would the pain of his wound be so unbearably excruciating, but his face would be open to so many infections, and his eye would dry out for lack of any lids.


lol mr realistic guy, he wouldnt have been able to last at all without medical help, even with the little screentime he got.

oh and I can make the same point about Maroni. How does he walk with a cane after gettting his legs snapped?


yea it's still a comic book movie get use to unrealstic things even in a "NOLAN" film.

[JP]

What? His legs were snapped? Sorry I didn't hear him cry out "Ow my legs are snapped" or Batman say "Yup, you're legs are definitely snapped". So there is no proof.

[kevin2323]

What? His legs were snapped? Sorry I didn't hear him cry out "Ow my legs are snapped" or Batman say "Yup, you're legs are definitely snapped". So there is no proof.

lol @ your comebacks.

Did your theatres not have speakers. I think the sound of bones snapping in half and the entire audience going AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW DAMNNNNNNNN was suffice.

[The Battousai]

Sarcasm - "I like that..."

EDIT: d-bag posted before me :cmad:

[kevin2323]

Sarcasm - "I like that..."

EDIT: d-bag posted before me :cmad:

"giggles"

[JP]

lol @ your comebacks.

Did your theatres not have speakers. I think the sound of bones snapping in half and the entire audience going AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW DAMNNNNNNNN was suffice.

Yup and I also saw Harvey's cold dead motionless corpse. :)

[kevin2323]

Yup and I also saw Harvey's cold dead motionless corpse. :)

I see what you did there.:cwink:

[Gianakin_]

Also, if he was alive not only would the pain of his wound be so unbearably excruciating, but his face would be open to so many infections, and his eye would dry out for lack of any lids.

Realistically someone with that bad an injury would not survive long without medical attention.

Let's not go THAT far with the realism stuff. There were many unrealistic (in terms of physics) things in TDK.

[kevin2323]

Let's not go THAT far with the realism stuff. There were many unrealistic (in terms of physics) things in TDK.

thank you for that..

[bell110]

Anyone who thinks that Two-Face's death is FACT is wrong, and might not know what the difference between the words "fact" and "opinion" are.

Where are people getting this idea that they are trying to cover up Two-Face's death? They are only covering up his murders, which supposedly only Gordon and Batman know he committed. SO, they take an unconscious to the ICU and publicly state that Batman is wanted for the murders. Not that big of a stretch to imagine.

How can ANYONE sit there and say the can tell definitively between a funeral, memorial, or a press conference, especially when the defining feature of a funeral, a casket, is never shown.

If Nolan wanted Two-Face to be DEAD, he would have made that clear. He obviously left it ambiguous for a reason.

[Spider-Fan]

So? That doesn't change anything. Dent is dead. I have no idea why this is a discussion. At least with Cyclops and few others, they were killed off screen, so I can maybe see the speculation. Here, we have a friggin corpse and people are brushing it off cause they want Two-Face to still be alive.

Well he isn't. Look at the theme in the movie and the fact (especially that whole ending narrative) he is motionless and not breathing. Covering up him being alive would be IMPOSSIBLE, thus what was the point of faking he was dead if people would find out?

Sorry guys, get out of the denial stage. Dent is dead. Start moving to acceptance.

[Spider-Fan]

Anyone who thinks that Two-Face's death is FACT is wrong, and might not know what the difference between the words "fact" and "opinion" are.

Where are people getting this idea that they are trying to cover up Two-Face's death? They are only covering up his murders, which supposedly only Gordon and Batman know he committed. SO, they take an unconscious to the ICU and publicly state that Batman is wanted for the murders. Not that big of a stretch to imagine.

How can ANYONE sit there and say the can tell definitively between a funeral, memorial, or a press conference, especially when the defining feature of a funeral, a casket, is never shown.

If Nolan wanted Two-Face to be DEAD, he would have made that clear. He obviously left it ambiguous for a reason.

HE WAS GIVING A EAULOGY AT THAT FUNERAL FOR DENT!!! I'd say it was a friggin funeral. Much like the one Loeb got. Saying "Dent DIED a hero" says that he is telling people he's dead. If he were still alive, it would have to be a cover up, which would be impossible to maintain and makes no sense.

DEAD!!!!

[Aidan2209]

He's dead until he's brought back (this may or may not happen). It was open enough for a revelation that he, in fact, survived, and that his death was part of keeping his hero-image alive, to be believable. As I've said before, it would take a third film to confirm or disconfirm this, and no such film currently exists, and may never. Thus, at least for now, he is dead.

[Nathaniel Essex]

Anyone who thinks that Two-Face's death is FACT is wrong, and might not know what the difference between the words "fact" and "opinion" are.

Where are people getting this idea that they are trying to cover up Two-Face's death? They are only covering up his murders, which supposedly only Gordon and Batman know he committed. SO, they take an unconscious to the ICU and publicly state that Batman is wanted for the murders. Not that big of a stretch to imagine.

How can ANYONE sit there and say the can tell definitively between a funeral, memorial, or a press conference, especially when the defining feature of a funeral, a casket, is never shown.

If Nolan wanted Two-Face to be DEAD, he would have made that clear. He obviously left it ambiguous for a reason.

HE FELL AND DIDN'T BREATHE, FOR THAT WHOLE TIME HE WAS NOT BREATHING. HE WASN'T HOLDING HIS BREATH, HE WAS DEAD, DEAD AS A DOORNAIL. WHICH ALSO DON'T BREATHE. HIS NOSTRILS WERE NOT FLARING, HIS CHEST WAS NOT MOVING.. THIS ISN'T OPINION, THIS IS FACT.

[Gianakin_]

Anyone who thinks that Two-Face's death is FACT is wrong, and might not know what the difference between the words "fact" and "opinion" are.

Well, you're wrong. Oh, see what I did there?

[Gianakin_]

Nathaniel, I agree with you, but no need for the caps man, come on, the page is getting effed up.

[ryan dube]

Just as I knew that Gordon was still alive, I know Two-Face is still alive. Ra's is the only death that I am not sure if he survived or not. He could have been taken back to the Pit and survive, but we will probably never know for sure. Joker is alive, Scarecrow is alive, Maroni is alive, and Two-face is alive, he was just knocked unconscious by the fall.

The funeral was a ceremony set to deliver hope to the Gothamites...

[Gianakin_]

Just as I knew that Gordon was still alive, I know Two-Face is still alive.

Yes, because all comic book fans were going to buy that Gordon's death was final. Because villains don't die in the Bat-franchise at all.

[Nathaniel Essex]

Nathaniel, I agree with you, but no need for the caps man, come on, the page is getting effed up.

sorry but sometimes the only way for people to realize the truth is to slap them in the face with big black capitalized words

[ryan dube]

My position for that is that Nolan would not spend the whole movie about Batman's one rule concerning not killing people, and then all the sudden at the end, he tackles Two-Face and kills him in doing so?

That would discredit the whole film...

[Spider-Fan]

I think the Joker lived in the 89 movie. Anyone could survive that fall. And The Penguin was just resting his eyes.

You guys are right. A corpse and a funeral are not enough to show me someone is dead. Maybe Norman's alive? Or Harry? I HAVE HOPE NOW!!!

Now, if some guy would have ran onto the scream and started singing "he's dead" maybe it would've been believable. But all they gave us was a corpse and funeral. What was I thinking? :whatever:

[ryan dube]

Tim Burton didn't give Michael Keaton's Batman a code.

"I will not be his executioner"

jeez, you guys need to pay attention to the films when you watch them

[Nathaniel Essex]

I think the Joker lived in the 89 movie. Anyone could survive that fall. And The Penguin was just resting his eyes.

You guys are right. A corpse and a funeral are not enough to show me someone is dead. Maybe Norman's alive? Or Harry? I HAVE HOPE NOW!!!

Now, if some guy would have ran onto the scream and started singing "he's dead" maybe it would've been believable. But all they gave us was a corpse and funeral. What was I thinking? :whatever:

don't forget Two-Face in Batman Forever, he didn't die. Either did Tony Montana at the end of Scarface

[ryan dube]

wow, you guys are confusing franchises', how amazing that your arguements are losing validity/focus

[Nathaniel Essex]

Damn. While watching The Dark Knight I thought it was Scarface.. My bad

but in all seriousness, I would love for Two-Face to have survived the fall, but he doesn't breathe at all, there are no signs of life, no nostril flares, no nothing. The only way to bring him back is to bring R'as back and introduce the Lazarus Pit

[ryan dube]

but guys, if there were "nostril flares" then there would be other arguing that he just couldn't hold his breathe during the shoot, and blah blah blah

you know what I mean... ;)

[Nathaniel Essex]

but guys, if there were "nostril flares" then there would be other arguing that he just couldn't hold his breathe during the shoot, and blah blah blah

you know what I mean... ;)

But Two-Face is dead. Do you really think that if a high budget Hollywood film would just let someone who is meant to be dead not hold their breath because they couldn't? They would re-sculpt the face, CGI it or even put in a dummy.

Two-Face is dead.

Accept it.

[ryan dube]

So are you telling me that they spent the whole of BB and TDK professing how Btaman will not take a life, and then break that rule at the end of the flick???

Makes no sense, accept that

[Aidan2209]

Two-Face falling to his death was an unfortunate byproduct of Batman's attempt to save Gordon's son from having his brains blown out. He didn't intentionally kill him, and thus did not break his one rule.

[Nathaniel Essex]

So are you telling me that they spent the whole of BB and TDK professing how Btaman will not take a life, and then break that rule at the end of the flick???

Makes no sense, accept that

We didn't see what Batman did. For all we know, he could have went for the kid, bumped into Harvey and he tumbled over the side. We didn't see Batman run, pick him up and dump him off the side, Batman could have even tried to grab onto Harvey over the edge but couldn't hold on, he had a few finger tips hanging off a piece of wood, not to mention he was shot in the stomach, which would weaken him greatly. We didn't see that at all. However, we did see Harvey Dent laying on the ground motionless, not breathing, no signs of breathing, no nothing.

You are saying because Batman MIGHT have killed, which he is against, Harvey Dent should be alive.. That makes no sense

[Gianakin_]

Two-Face falling to his death was an unfortunate byproduct of Batman's attempt to save Gordon's son from having his brains blown out. He didn't intentionally kill him, and thus did not break his one rule.

QFFT

[Gianakin_]

So are you telling me that they spent the whole of BB and TDK professing how Btaman will not take a life, and then break that rule at the end of the flick???

Makes no sense, accept that

"I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you".

In TDK, he just jumped to save Jim jr. 2Face was killed in the process. What, Bats was gonna wait for the kid to die so that he won't indirectly off a dangerous man?

[kevin2323]

If nolan wanted to, he would have made two faces death obvious and no, it is not obvious. Stop with all the oh he wasnt breathing crap or his nostrils didnt flare. He fell from a short distance and the funeral or w.e you want to call it was for harvey dent and was a cover up. two face can easily be put into arkham asylum with another name and no one would notice because of his disfigured face( it's a comic book movie get over your realistic fantasies). How in the hell is batman suppose to redeem himself and get his image back in the next film? By catching the new bad guy that comes into the picture? He still would be known as the person who killed gothams white knight and no one would forgive him no matter how many villains he caught. He needs two face to be the main villain in the next one so he can be the definitive protector of gotham. IMO (which everyone forgets to use)


nubs

[Gianakin_]

If nolan wanted to, he would have made two faces death obvious and no, it is not obvious. Stop with all the oh he wasnt breathing crap or his nostrils didnt flare. He fell from a short distance and the funeral or w.e you want to call it was for harvey dent and was a cover up. two face can easily be put into arkham asylum with another name and no one would notice because of his disfigured face( it's a comic book movie get over your realistic fantasies).

I won't stop just because you say so. They're all valid points whether you like it or not. And when a filmmaker goes out of his way to show you the body (or not show it), it means something.

How in the hell is batman suppose to redeem himself and get his image back in the next film? By catching the new bad guy that comes into the picture? He still would be known as the person who killed gothams white knight and no one would forgive him no matter how many villains he caught. He needs two face to be the main villain in the next one so he can be the definitive protector of gotham. IMO (which everyone forgets to use)

I agree, which is why I'm upset he's dead and why the rumors about Nolan not returning started to rise. Because it would be too difficult to pull it off.

[RakuMon]

I don't know if this has been stated yet, but I think the Nolans put in a little foreshadowing with the Maroni scene where he says "From this height, the fall won't kill me."

I know that was just an example of Batman being a badass, but from a screen writing POV, I wonder if that line was put there as an explanation for how Dent could've survived the fall at the end. The distance from where they were to the ground didn't seem that far (at least no farther than where Batman pushed Maroni). I think it's possible that Dent survived and was carted off somewhere (Arkham maybe?) This only matters if Nolan and co. come back for Part 3. As it stands, if they never make another Batman movie, Dark Knight will do just fine as the last (and ultimate) Batman movie for me.

[kevin2323]

yea sorry for my venting everyone has valid points on both sides but it is not a fact on either side. Hopefully Nolan will come out and say if he'll do a third and or if two face is dead.

[Ironfan72]

It's not out of the realm of possiblity Two-Face is very much alive, take into consideration that Arkham is around and they aren't exactly full up of Batman's villians yet, so to say that Gordon and Batman decided for the citizens to remember Harvey Dent as Gotham's white knight and sending Two-Face to Arkham to be locked away is a very good possiblity, Gothoms under world is very dark and dangerous, a guy like Two-Face would thrive in that without the general public knowing he was around for along time, and when he does re-appear, year or two later and makes a big splash, the Police would say we were fooled, we thought he was dead, and couldn't find a body.
Now, this is speculation and a possible story that could be used if they wanted to bring back Two-Face for the thrid film, which is unlikely as it's rare in any movie to bring back a villian like Two-Face, they did it with scare crow, but for me at least, Two-face would make a great stand alone villian, something the character as never received in the two films he has appeared in.

[CaptainClown]

I feel that Two-face might appear thus proving Batmans innocence. I have a feeling a third one would basically be like Dark Victory. Two-face leading the freaks against the mob.

[Rincewind]

He fell from a short distance and the funeral or w.e you want to call it was for harvey dent and was a cover up. two face can easily be put into arkham asylum with another name and no one would notice because of his disfigured face

Do you actually believe in what you're saying?

Nobody would notice him BEACUSE of the scars? That's the exactly f'n reason why EVERYBODY would know it's him. There can be many blond men in Gotham who look a bit like Dent, but how many of them miss half a face?

Please, that "Two-Face is alive" thing is becoming stupid, stop embarrasing yourselves.

[kevin2323]

Yea your thinking skills impress me. OH WAIT! no they don't. Just stop acting like you wrote the movie and know exactly what they were thinking. It's called an opinion GOOGLE it, it might help you out a bit.

please leave this thread unless you know how to think or have an opinion.

please stop embarrasing yourself.

[woahwoahwoahwha]

I want to say he's dead, but I think that's just me projecting the fact that I was concerned he wasn't a strong enough villain for an entire Batman 3 to be made about him. I especially am not sure I'd be too thrilled with the final one in the series being reserved for Two-Face. But now I'm pretty psyched because we have to play wait-and-see for whatever large-scale finale they could be planning for the series (Nolan and Bale said they're stopping at three, right?)

[Ironfan72]

:whatever:Man alot of people are embarrassing themselves, almost 900 replies, people must hate themselves to keep talking about what happened to Two-Face.

[CaptainClown]

dude who cares if we are wrong, its just major geekdom. If we had self respect we would all be doing something better right now.

[kevin2323]

:whatever:Man alot of people are embarrassing themselves, almost 900 replies, people must hate themselves to keep talking about what happened to Two-Face.


seriously stop using your brain. You can't have an opinion without embarrassing yourself:whatever::oldrazz:(sarcasm). I guarentee that if you didnt know anything about batman you would have thought Gordon was really dead(just like my gf did). Guess what even after they showed his "corpse" laying there breathless he came back. Two face had minimal screen time and IMO is alive.

[Rincewind]

please leave this thread unless you know how to think or have an opinion.


So, the opinion that Two-Face is dead and done doesn't classify, right? What a surprise :whatever:

[kevin2323]

who said that? I want the debate to go on but people coming in here stating that it is FACT that he is dead is embarrassing and dumb on their part. There is a reason why "IMO" exist. Use it.

[metalhead971]

I would like to believe that he's alive only because I don't like the idea of major villains being killed off, but it did look like he was pretty much dead at the end. However, it's important to remember that the memorial scene for Dent was not actually taking place, it was somewhat of a "foreshadowing" of what would happen in the days and weeks to come, with the signal being destroyed and all that. It could be that the memorial took place with an image of Dent overhead only because the body could not be found after the incident at the blown-up building. Who knows? I'm sure there's a way they could pull off keeping him alive, but in the context of the story, you can't fault them too much for killing him off. It took the direction of the tragedy of Harvey/Two-Face to it's final destination, and the ride along the way was amazing, no doubt.

[kevin2323]

I would like to believe that he's alive only because I don't like the idea of major villains being killed off, but it did look like he was pretty much dead at the end. However, it's important to remember that the memorial scene for Dent was not actually taking place, it was somewhat of a "foreshadowing" of what would happen in the days and weeks to come, with the signal being destroyed and all that. It could be that the memorial took place with an image of Dent overhead only because the body could not be found after the incident at the blown-up building. Who knows? I'm sure there's a way they could pull off keeping him alive, but in the context of the story, you can't fault them too much for killing him off. It took the direction of the tragedy of Harvey/Two-Face to it's final destination, and the ride along the way was amazing, no doubt.

AMEN TO THAT BROTHER!

[Paradyme]

I think it could swing either way but to do that would be sorta lame. Harvey's arc began and ended in The Dark Knight so there is no point to revive him. That's not what Nolan is about. Remember he said he does one movie at a time and treats it as it's own and doesn't try to make it a cliffhanger.

[Gianakin_]

I would like to believe that he's alive only because I don't like the idea of major villains being killed off, but it did look like he was pretty much dead at the end.

Now, that's the most honest argument I've read in this thread.

[Rincewind]

who said that? I want the debate to go on but people coming in here stating that it is FACT that he is dead is embarrassing and dumb on their part. There is a reason why "IMO" exist. Use it.

Look, it would be IMO, to say that... Tommy Lee Jones did a better job as Two-Face than Eckhart, for example (not that it's mine - or anyone's, I believe - opinion, it's just the type of thing that can be waved as a opinion, y'see).
However, it was plain and clear that in TDK Two-Face died at the end. I can understand why all of the supporters of the idea that he's alive want him back in the possible third movie - Eckhart did a wonderful job and Two-Face is one of the most important and capable to hold a movie on their own villains. To me, the fact that he died was the biggest disappointment from the movie - I even said so in the thread about them.
However, there is nothing in the movie that suggest that he is alive, other than your wishful thinking. Sorry, if that offends you, but it is a fact, I am absolutely sure about it. It's like when some folks claim that in BB they saw how Ra's jumps out from the exploding train.

[Nathaniel Essex]

Look, it would be IMO, to say that... Tommy Lee Jones did a better job as Two-Face than Eckhart, for example (not that it's mine - or anyone's, I believe - opinion, it's just the type of thing that can be waved as a opinion, y'see).
However, it was plain and clear that in TDK Two-Face died at the end. I can understand why all of the supporters of the idea that he's alive want him back in the possible third movie - Eckhart did a wonderful job and Two-Face is one of the most important and capable to hold a movie on their own villains. To me, the fact that he died was the biggest disappointment from the movie - I even said so in the thread about them.
However, there is nothing in the movie that suggest that he is alive, other than your wishful thinking. Sorry, if that offends you, but it is a fact, I am absolutely sure about it. It's like when some folks claim that in BB they saw how Ra's jumps out from the exploding train.

Ex-act-ly.


The only way Two-Face can come back is if they introduce Talia and then R'as and then the Lazarus Pit and Batman uses Two-Face in it, which cures him physically and mentally and then he breaks down again and does the scars himself.

[Rincewind]

The Lazarus Pit? In Nolan's version?

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I wish he was still alive, but in my heart I know hes not, which is a shame though the story did call for it to happen that way!

[Nathaniel Essex]

The Lazarus Pit? In Nolan's version?

Exactly. If you can't have the Lazarus Pit in Nolanverse then you cannot bring Two-Face back from the dead. People need to remember, he is dead, not coming back

[woahwoahwoahwha]

I feel like any ambiguity that was left was simply due to the fact that for a series like Batman you need to keep all your possibilities open. Short of seeing someone completely minced you never really "see" anyone die. I mean, you don't "see" Rachel die, technically, but you can safely assume she's dead. By this Christopher Nolan is keeping his options open to either begin the next movie with Two-Face or have him in it if other plans fall through, but I do feel like there was a pretty good indication he was gone.

[MegaGeek]

If this has already been said then I appologize, but I think they just locked him up in Arkum. I mean think about it, just tell the public he's dead (because in many ways Harvey Dent really is) and lock the physco up with all the other nuts. The whole sweep it under the rug thing. Honestly if he IS dead ill be pretty disapointed with how they handled his death in TDK.

[kevin2323]

Frankly I don't want Two face back. I much rather see other villains used but to say that it is fact that he is dead is rediculous. It is not wishful thinking. If I were two face's #1 fan and couldn't live with him dying then yes, IT'S WISHFUL THINKING. Nolan is known for twist and this movie had plenty so why not two face? IMO


I can say the same for people who sit here and say oh he is definately dead and never ever coming back blah blah blah. It is an opinion not wishful thinking not anything other than an opinion with really good evidence to back it up on both sides.

plain and simple Nolan left it open and it will be till he says something.

[Knightsaber Priss]

i say he made this move so he could decide over time wether he wants him alive or dead
so 50/50
theres more than enough evidence saying that its a cover making it look ambiguos

I think Nolan might have done what he did to Two Face because at the time he wasn't sure if Warners would welcome him back for a third movie. So in order to retain his vision of Two Face he had to make the decisions he made to keep the character's integrity. I'm thinking that given huge Box Office numbers this will show Warners that Nolan's talent is irreplaceable if the third movie is to be as good as the previous two movies.

[kevin2323]

If this has already been said then I appologize, but I think they just locked him up in Arkum. I mean think about it, just tell the public he's dead (because in many ways Harvey Dent really is) and lock the physco up with all the other nuts. The whole sweep it under the rug thing. Honestly if he IS dead ill be pretty disapointed with how they handled his death in TDK.

yea whats arkham asylum for then? everyone but two face? lol give me a break.

[MegaGeek]

wouldnt it be cool if Rachel didnt die, she just had the right side of her body blown offand she came back in Batman 3 as B*%&-face, then Two-face and B*%^-face could live happily together and have ugly disfigured babies. cooooooooooooooooool!

[kevin2323]

wouldnt it be cool if Rachel didnt die, she just had the right side of her body blown offand she came back in Batman 3 as B*%&-face, then Two-face and B*%^-face could live happily together and have ugly disfigured babies. cooooooooooooooooool!


Best Rachel's still alive argument everrrrrrrr!!!!:brucebat:

[Ironfan72]

This debate can go back and fouth, both sides make great points, for me, I like Two-Face and hope he is still alive, is he, only Nolan and the writers know for sure. I truely believe that given a chance, Two-Face would make a great stand alone villian, he more than fits Nolan's vision of Batman, I can see arguments made for other villains being used for the thrid film and I'm sure that all are valid, I just believe Two-Face is a great, under used Batman foe that has a deeper history that can be explored.

[NHawk19]

Rule No 1 Batman doesnt kill.

Both Harvey and Ra's "endings" were written and shot the way they were on purpose, and it's no accident that we are having this arguement. Nolan and the writers are leaving themselves room, where in previous movies there was none. It's because of that this movie works both as a stand alone or lead into another in the series. If they feel compelled to bring Harvey or Ra's back in order to move the story they have the space.

[THE MR. TERRIFIC]

I think he is still alive. They had a funeral but it could be a farce. He could be locked away in Arkhym somewhere. Batman is taking the fall for Harvey because it is the best thing for the city. We may see Harvey again.

[Matt]

who said that? I want the debate to go on but people coming in here stating that it is FACT that he is dead is embarrassing and dumb on their part. There is a reason why "IMO" exist. Use it.

But using IMO is not a substitute for fact in debate. All debate is rooted in fact. Otherwise you are ranting, not debating. There is nothing factual within the context of the movie to support Two Face being alive. Therefore you are not debating. You are ranting about your pipe dream.

[Nathaniel Essex]

or not, because he wasn't breathing at all and had no signs of breathing

[DraXXXen]

While I would have loved to see more Two-Face in the third film, it seemed fairly obvious, IMO, to me that he died. Harvey fell straight out the window, full speed and onto his back, however Batman fell out and held on until falling (from a slightly less height then Harvey) and his decent was slowed down by the wood he hit as well as some of the impact being absorbed by the suit, hence why Batman lived.

Really would have liked to see much more Two-Face, but the ending worked and wrapped up the character in the publics eye perfectly.

[bell110]

HE WAS GIVING A EAULOGY AT THAT FUNERAL FOR DENT!!! I'd say it was a friggin funeral. Much like the one Loeb got. Saying "Dent DIED a hero" says that he is telling people he's dead. If he were still alive, it would have to be a cover up, which would be impossible to maintain and makes no sense.

DEAD!!!!

Did you read anything I wrote? No, he was giving a speech. There was NOTHING to indicate a funeral at all. I don't remember him saying he was dead. As a matter of fact, I remember the entire ending purposefully dancing around the fact if he was dead or not.

And of course covering up is life would be impossible and makes no sense. That's only something these "Dent is dead" people made up. As I said, the only thing they were covering up was the fact that Dent murdered people. Since Gordon and Batman are supposedly the only one's that know Dent killed people, Batman decided to take the blame.

HE FELL AND DIDN'T BREATHE, FOR THAT WHOLE TIME HE WAS NOT BREATHING. HE WASN'T HOLDING HIS BREATH, HE WAS DEAD, DEAD AS A DOORNAIL. WHICH ALSO DON'T BREATHE. HIS NOSTRILS WERE NOT FLARING, HIS CHEST WAS NOT MOVING.. THIS ISN'T OPINION, THIS IS FACT.


Dude, grow up.

You know who else was lying around motionless showing no signs of breathing? Gordon, the Joker, and Batman, all in the same movie.

[Mr. Para-Normal]

I would like to believe that he's alive only because I don't like the idea of major villains being killed off, but it did look like he was pretty much dead at the end. However, it's important to remember that the memorial scene for Dent was not actually taking place, it was somewhat of a "foreshadowing" of what would happen in the days and weeks to come, with the signal being destroyed and all that. It could be that the memorial took place with an image of Dent overhead only because the body could not be found after the incident at the blown-up building. Who knows? I'm sure there's a way they could pull off keeping him alive, but in the context of the story, you can't fault them too much for killing him off. It took the direction of the tragedy of Harvey/Two-Face to it's final destination, and the ride along the way was amazing, no doubt.

I think that those scenes at the end that show dents memorial and Gordon breaking the bat signal are the Actual events that follow after batman runs (not just imaginary scenes that just elude to what might happen). Even though I hate to say it I think that dent is dead. I saw the movie two times over the weekend. On my first viewing I fell into the hype of some people who said they saw dent still breathing after batman knocks him over the building. But I looked hard on my second viewing and he is not breathing, he looks pretty dead to me. And the reason you do not see his body on the ground in the last shot with gordon talking is because the shot is from a different angle its a close up of gordon so you don't see the ground. Besides if dent just got up and ran off don't you think gordons wife or gordon himself hear/see him get up and walk off? Or aleast we would have seen his shadow walk off in the scene or something. O and one more thing I realize that the fall did not look like it could kill somone but who's to say that dent/two-face did'nt land on his neck or something?

[TheCaptain]

besides, he was definitely breathing when they first showed a close-up on him after the fall. i don't know if that was intentional or not.

[Mr. Para-Normal]

Dent was not breathing in the last scene it may have look like it for a second. It least to me he was not.

[bell110]

Look, it would be IMO, to say that... Tommy Lee Jones did a better job as Two-Face than Eckhart, for example (not that it's mine - or anyone's, I believe - opinion, it's just the type of thing that can be waved as a opinion, y'see).
However, it was plain and clear that in TDK Two-Face died at the end. I can understand why all of the supporters of the idea that he's alive want him back in the possible third movie - Eckhart did a wonderful job and Two-Face is one of the most important and capable to hold a movie on their own villains. To me, the fact that he died was the biggest disappointment from the movie - I even said so in the thread about them.
However, there is nothing in the movie that suggest that he is alive, other than your wishful thinking. Sorry, if that offends you, but it is a fact, I am absolutely sure about it. It's like when some folks claim that in BB they saw how Ra's jumps out from the exploding train.

Apparently, it's not plain and clear because only 22% voted that he is dead, no interpritation.

[Rincewind]

Apparently, the other 35 % are just a fine example of wishful thinking.

[ThePheonix22]

Ok,So,I dont want to start a fight or anything,But a heres a clue that could specify him living;
1:His coin flipped on the un-scratched side when he fell.
And why in the world would he die when he died in Joel Schucamander's movie?That would almost be like Chris Nlan copying Joel.

So theres a chance he's alive,But he could be dead.

[Gianakin_]

The coin was flipped for Jim Gordon jr. and it falling good side up symbolizes that the kid lived/ justice was served.

[Dark Knight]

If Nolan wanted Two-Face to be DEAD, he would have made that clear. He obviously left it ambiguous for a reason.



Exactly...plus I believe Eckhart was signed to do another film. :woot:

[Mr. Joker]

I think that since the Joker can't return, Two-Face will instead. That would be best.

[Dark Knight]

Ohh the beauty of open ended endings of films. :joker:

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Exactly...plus I believe Eckhart was signed to do another film. :woot:

Where did you get those facts from?

[Dark Knight]

Man, some of you really need to get a grip or get a life.....:o

[Gianakin_]

I think that since the Joker can't return, Two-Face will instead. That would be best.

Agreed.

[Triple Skeet]

Hmmmm Batman takes the same exact fall as Dent, yet he lives and Dents dead. That doesnt sound right.

If they make another movie it wont have the Joker, I cant see it not having 2 Face either.

[Dark Knight]

Where did you get those facts from?



Never said it was a "fact" I said I BELIEVE.

I don't have a link or anything like that, but I have some peeps that mentioned it to me that I trust. We'll see though....anything can happen between now and 2010-2011.

[blightsbiohazar]

double post

[blightsbiohazar]

I think it seemed pretty clear the first time we saw him fall that he was dead. Think about it: when Gordon heard the hospital blew up he KNEW dent was scarred and effed up in the head and yet he told them to tell the public he was safe. He didn't know the extent of how effed up he was but he knew he was effed up. He didn't tell the public he was dead. Once he fell off the building, he told the public Dent was dead. He wouldn't flat out lie to them if he knew for sure.

[Rayne]

in the third movie (if there will be one, because frankly how TDK ends they could just stop with that), the truth has to come out that Batman didnt kill any of Two-Face's victims. what i think the 3rd film will eventually achieve is that Batman is the right kind of hero for Gotham, the hero that trully represents the city, not the idealized White Knight version that Harvey Dent was. the theme of having the spirit of Gothamites be unbroken must carry over from Harvey Dent to Batman.

what this film showed very clearly was that there was a memorial for "Harvey Dent", the idealized White Knight of Gotham. what Nolan and crew are probably hoping for is the natural assumption of audiences to think that when there is a memorial, that character is dead. in the next film they could very easily show the real truth of Two-Face imprisoned/ under treatment in Arkham, with maybe an allusion of Joker being there as well.

what i'd like to know is what Nolan's plans are for the 3rd film-- if there is a 3rd film of course. i couldnt help get the feeling that the 2nd film seemed to have ended in such finality because Nolan is pissed off at WB and is his way of saying "I quit."

Why would Nolan be pissed at Warners??

[Dark Knight]

Hmmmm Batman takes the same exact fall as Dent, yet he lives and Dents dead. That doesnt sound right.

If they make another movie it wont have the Joker, I cant see it not having 2 Face either.



Batman has the suit to protect him...the only reason Bats didn't die or get knocked out is because of the suit. Plus he had a gun shot wound or bruise....

[TheGary]

Hmmmm Batman takes the same exact fall as Dent, yet he lives and Dents dead. That doesnt sound right.

Dent was pushed with force, and was already going fast when he took the fall. Batman was holding on with his feet closer to the ground before he fell.

Also, if Dent was alive, then it would have been pointless to have Batman take the fall to to preserve Harvey Dent's "White Knight". If he just got up and started walking around, then people would know something was up. Especially when he continued killing people. It just seems like he's dead to me.

[bell110]

The coin was flipped for Jim Gordon jr. and it falling good side up symbolizes that the kid lived/ justice was served.

Nope. The last flip was for Gordon. Two-Face was going to kill the son. Then Batman and Gordon talked Two-Face into only punishing those envolved, ie, Batman, Gordon and Dent. The first flip was for Batman, the second for Dent, the third for Gordon.

[bell110]

Dent was pushed with force, and was already going fast when he took the fall. Batman was holding on with his feet closer to the ground before he fell.

Also, if Dent was alive, then it would have been pointless to have Batman take the fall to to preserve Harvey Dent's "White Knight". If he just got up and started walking around, then people would know something was up. Especially when he continued killing people. It just seems like he's dead to me.

What? He took the blame for Dent's killings to preserve his public prespective. Dent being alive or not has nothing to do with it.

[StrainedEyes]

Nope. The last flip was for Gordon. Two-Face was going to kill the son. Then Batman and Gordon talked Two-Face into only punishing those envolved, ie, Batman, Gordon and Dent. The first flip was for Batman, the second for Dent, the third for Gordon.

No, the flip was for Gordon's son. Batman only talked him into including Harvey and himself into the equation. Two-face still wanted to punish Gordon by making him lose the person he loved the most. That's why he told Gordon to tell his son he would be alright, the flip was for his son.

[Lauryn2000]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just like we thought Scarecrow was locked away some where,and he gets some early Batman "face time" in The Dark Knight.I'm pretty sure Two-Face will show up again,if only to seek revenge on the police department more than Batman,Commissioner Gordon and the Joker.

[StrainedEyes]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just like we thought Scarecrow was locked away some where,and he gets some early Batman "face time" in The Dark Knight.I'm pretty sure Two-Face will show up again,if only to seek revenge on the police department more than Batman,Commissioner Gordon and the Joker.

Who thought Scarecrow was locked away somewhere? It's pretty clear at the end of Begins that he escaped after he was zapped.

[DoesItDepressU]

I'm not convinced Dent is dead. I think when Gordon is distracted at watching Batman running and talking to his son, Dent slips away unnoticed. Batman gets hit with the blame and the memorial service comes well afterwards.

[Rincewind]

Well, if you thought that Scarecrow was locked away somewhere, it's your problem - in the end of BB it was said straightforward that he was on the run after the events in the Narrows.

The case with Two-Face here is completely different story.

[Raiden]

I don't think Dent is dead, although it's hard to see how he survived that fall (and Batman's body armor was what saved him). Gordon also talked about Dent as if he was dead, but that may be to preserve the honor and integrity of him and keep the Two Face away from the knowledge of the public.

[Gianakin_]

Nope. The last flip was for Gordon. Two-Face was going to kill the son. Then Batman and Gordon talked Two-Face into only punishing those envolved, ie, Batman, Gordon and Dent. The first flip was for Batman, the second for Dent, the third for Gordon.

Nope. Gordon said "Punish me, Harvey", Dent says "I'm about to" and he's going to punish him by letting him live and by making him witness the death of his son. 2Face tried to make Gordon feel how it is to lose a loved one. It was crystal clear, hence the "Say to your son that everything's going to be ok. Lie to him.".

[bethehero7404]

At that scene after Batman fell too I was staring at Dent hoping he was breathing. He wasn't. I was like..."He'll pop up soon enough, watch...come on, don't be dead...he'll get up...he's faking...come on, don't be dead..."

He didn't get up.

[mikey09]

Nope. Gordon said "Punish me, Harvey", Dent says "I'm about to" and he's going to punish him by letting him live and by making him witness the death of his son. 2Face tried to make Gordon feel how it is to lose a loved one. It was crystal clear, hence the "Say to your son that everything's going to be ok. Lie to him.".
The original poster was correct.

The flip was for Gordon.

He says to lie to his son because he is about to kill Gordon, but obviously could also be used for the son.

In the end, he flipped three times, for Batman, Gordon, and himself.

[Grommers]

I loved how Harvey told bruce wayne he didnt understand losing someone because him and gordon didnt lose someone. I honestly thought he was going to take off his mask, and be like YOU HAVE NO IDEA. But i was even happier when he didn't.

[S.A.A.D.]

At this point,I think Two Face is dead.

[Gianakin_]

The original poster was correct.

The flip was for Gordon.

He says to lie to his son because he is about to kill Gordon, but obviously could also be used for the son.

In the end, he flipped three times, for Batman, Gordon, and himself.

Disagreed. He especially wanted Gordon to taste the same s**t Dent himself had tasted. Watch the thematic arc of 2Face after Rachel.

[Mrs.J]

IMO dent is not dead.
Just like in the middle of the movie--Gordon dies--we all new he didnt--(atleast he better not have or else there woulda been TONS of angry fans :P)

IMO his death is faked. He needs to be rehabilitated--and yes he commited murders---BUT they could be blamed due in part to his "other" side coming through--AND to the fact that he had just endured mental and emotional anguish.

Plus he was manipulated by the Joker.
IMO for this to fly he must forget ever becoming Two Face---ever having his face burnt off. So--maybe he had memory loss due to the fall? And during his rehabilitation he gets cosmetic surgery and is nearly peachy
keen.


Yea--very stretched--lol--but I dont want him dead. I think a movie can be pulled off with just him.
Why not? He is a very strong and complicated character like the Joker.

Joker can come back--but not in the next movie. It is going to be EXTREMELY hard to replace heath ledger. He was PERFECT in the movie. Best Joker

[MegaGeek]

Hmmmm Batman takes the same exact fall as Dent, yet he lives and Dents dead. That doesnt sound right.

If they make another movie it wont have the Joker, I cant see it not having 2 Face either.

yea but hes got the invincible suit of invincibility which also alows him to free fall from a penthouse and land on car roof with Rachel on top of him and be perfectly fine.

oh and dont forget he hit a couple of beems on the way down with Harvey, surely that broke some of the fall. (insert sarcasim)

[rizzo51]

it definitly left it open for the possiblilty he is alive. They could have easily "staged" the memorial service so that Gotham dosnt know the true fate of their white knight which is probally that of being locked up in Arkham.

[Venom 1988]

Disagreed. He especially wanted Gordon to taste the same s**t Dent himself had tasted. Watch the thematic arc of 2Face after Rachel.

At first he did yes, but when Batman came in with his little mini-speech about the 3 of them and Two-Face says something to the ffect of ok lets settle this then. Flips and shoots Batman, Flips and doesn't shoot himself, then he started to flip for Gordon.

[Gianakin_]

At first he did yes, but when Batman came in with his little mini-speech about the 3 of them and Two-Face says something to the ffect of ok lets settle this then. Flips and shoots Batman, Flips and doesn't shoot himself, then he started to flip for Gordon.

Then why's he still holding the son?

[Gianakin_]

yea but hes got the invincible suit of invincibility which also alows him to free fall from a penthouse and land on car roof with Rachel on top of him and be perfectly fine.

oh and dont forget he hit a couple of beems on the way down with Harvey, surely that broke some of the fall. (insert sarcasim)

Oh, I see what you did there. :dry:

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I'm not convinced Dent is dead. I think when Gordon is distracted at watching Batman running and talking to his son, Dent slips away unnoticed. Batman gets hit with the blame and the memorial service comes well afterwards.

Im glad your so hopeful with your theory with no facts, its noble.

[Venom 1988]

Then why's he still holding the son?

2 reasons, He was using the son as a hostage and didnt want Batman to jump him and stop him from what he was doing(tho he did end of doing it at the end). The second was so his son could see Gordon possibly die.

[Gianakin_]

2 reasons, He was using the son as a hostage and didnt want Batman to jump him and stop him from what he was doing(tho he did end of doing it at the end). The second was so his son could see Gordon possibly die.

Fair enough. I still insist that thematically it made sense for him to kill the son. Anywho, even if you're right, the bottomline stays the same.

[Venom 1988]

Fair enough. I still insist that thematically it made sense for him to kill the son. Anywho, even if you're right, the bottomline stays the same. Yea regardless either way, Harvey Dent got knocked the **** out lol, which leads to the other topic here..which i'm not gonna get into :oldrazz:

[Frosty81]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype]what i'd like to know is what Nolan's plans are for the 3rd film-- if there is a 3rd film of course. i couldnt help get the feeling that the 2nd film seemed to have ended in such finality because Nolan is pissed off at WB and is his way of saying "I quit."

Where do you get the info that Nolan is pissed at the WB?

[Figs]

2 reasons, He was using the son as a hostage and didnt want Batman to jump him and stop him from what he was doing(tho he did end of doing it at the end). The second was so his son could see Gordon possibly die.

What would the point be for Two Face to kill Gordon in front of his son?? He's trying to teach Gordon a lesson.That's why he tells Gordon to lie to his son by telling him it's going to be alright. Dent/Two Face wanted Gordon to feel the situation/loss that he felt when Rachel died.He wasn't really using the son as a hostage, otherwise he could have grabbed Gordon's daughter first since that's who he pointed his gun at after pointing it at Gordon's wife. He pointed the gun at Gordon's son last and picked him because he was trying to find out which one of the three meant the most to Gordon.When he aimed the gun at the son that's when Gordon really started to yell and get anxious for him to leave them alone.

[Venom 1988]

What would the point be for Two Face to kill Gordon in front of his son?? He's trying to teach Gordon a lesson.That's why he tells Gordon to lie to his son by telling him it's going to be alright. Dent/Two Face wanted Gordon to feel the situation/loss that he felt when Rachel died.He wasn't really using the son as a hostage, otherwise he could have grabbed Gordon's daughter first since that's who he pointed his gun at after pointing it at Gordon's wife. He pointed the gun at Gordon's son last and picked him because he was trying to find out which one of the three meant the most to Gordon.When he aimed the gun at the son that's when Gordon really started to yell and get anxious for him to leave them alone. Hence why I said in thee post before that yes that was originally Two-Face's goal before Batman showed up with his "3 of us" min-speech.....:dry:

[chaseter]

He is dead...get over it. His arc is completed and done.

[Sun_Down]

He is dead. Period. Given the cirumstances, there is no logical way to have faked his death.

[StrainedEyes]

Hence why I said in thee post before that yes that was originally Two-Face's goal before Batman showed up with his "3 of us" min-speech.....:dry:

No, that speech didn't change anything in regards to Gordon, it just made Harvey include himself and Batman. His goal was to punish Gordon by making him lose the person he loved most. His plan never change. Harvey had the gun to the kid's head and told Gordon to say everything would be alright.

The flip was for Gordon's son, still. Harvey did not want to kill Gordon, he wanted to make him suffer.

[chaseter]

Gordon and Batman wouldn't keep Two Face locked up somewhere alive and putting him in Arkham as someone mentioned is dumb as word would get out he is in there. They buried his body and had a memorial service...the end. Two Face is now playing with Venom, Lady Deathstrike, Cyclops, Green Goblin, Doc Ock, and Professor Xavier until he pooned out and left the party for a comatose body.

[chaseter]

No, that speech didn't change anything in regards to Gordon, it just made Harvey include himself and Batman. His goal was to punish Gordon by making him lose the person he loved most. His plan never change. Harvey had the gun to the kid's head and told Gordon to say everything would be alright.

The flip was for Gordon's son, still. Harvey did not want to kill Gordon, he wanted to make him suffer.
This is correct, then Gordon said don't hurt him, hurt the people who did this to you which was Batman, Gordon, and Two Face himself hence the first flip for Batman who was shot, the second flip for Two Face who put the gun up to his head, and the last flip was for Gordon but Batman took him off the building.

[Venom 1988]

This is correct, then Gordon said don't hurt him, hurt the people who did this to you which was Batman, Gordon, and Two Face himself hence the first flip for Batman who was shot, the second flip for Two Face who put the gun up to his head, and the last flip was for Gordon but Batman took him off the building.

Thank you

[Savage]

I think he's dead (no reason to bring him back) but I'm hopeful about the possibility of a comeback. The ending just felt so...surreal. It was like no-one cared that he was dead. Batman and Gordon didn't really mourn him. It was strictly down to business and "How are we going to cover this up?". Much in the same way that Gordon was shot and assumed dead only to come back with a good enough explanation I think it is POSSIBLE that Two-face can be brought back with a suitable enough explanation like "All his bones are broken but we've kept him in our finest cell. No-one must know of this." Maybe have the character be visited from time to time.

Another example is Ra's. We saw him die. He friggin' blew up. There has been no mention of the Lazarus Pits though so they can always bring that in (although I predict they'll just make Talia the new Ra's Al Ghul in some kind of twist on Bruce Wayne...God, I hope they don't fuse her and Catwoman like they did with Ducard and Ra's).

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

The kid didn't seem very traumatized considering he was about to be shot in the head by a man with half a face left. Oh, look, batman's running, why?

[Eagle_23]

I just hope he's alive. He's too pivotal of a character in the comics to have gotten so little screen time as Two Face. I just can't imagine that was the last of Two Face. BRING HIM BACK!

[Bim]

Well i voted for "Ambiguous (writers could swing either way): I think he's still alive", but i should probably rephrase it to "Ambiguous: I HOPE he's still alive" :cwink: :hehe:

[Bim]

Sorry, double post

[NewYorkSpider]

I just hope he's alive. He's to pivotal of a character in the comics to have gotten so little screen time as Two Face. I just can't imagine that was the last of Two Face. BRING HIM BACK!

This post reminds me of Spider-Man fans and Venom.

[batmaluco]

''Ambiguous (writers could swing either way): I think he's still alive''

:fingers crossed:

[JP]

The thing is, unlike Venom, Two-Face was given a decent amount of screen time and a satisfying conclusion to his story ark.

[chaseter]

The thing is, unlike Venom, Two-Face was given a decent amount of screen time and a satisfying conclusion to his story ark.
Yeapers...and was given better CGI:woot: and a better actor:woot:

[Doc Holliday]

This post reminds me of Spider-Man fans and Venom.

Except that Venom wasn't left ambiguous at all, he was clearly done for.

With Two Face, there's no "Oh, he's definitely dead" moment. Sure, they have a memorial service for Harvey, but if he was still alive (and let's say he is for the sake of argument) they would have to pretend he's dead to let Batman take the fall for his crimes. They obviously can't let people see the living Harvey Dent with half a face who has become a murderer, so they have to hide him and tell everyone he died while he was still the shining white knight of Gotham. And then Batman is there to take the fall for the unexplained deaths, since Dent couldn't have done it, he was a good guy.

And in response to the argument that Two Face coming back would ruin the end of TDK, I disagree. True, short-term it would take away the power of what Batman has to do, but in the comics he's not always hated by everyone in Gotham. At some point they start liking him again. And the easiest way for his name to be cleared would be for Two Face to resurface again in the third movie, and claim responsibility for the killings. He would probably then proceed to target Batman and Gordon if not others as well. Long story short, Two Face is defeated somehow, Batman's name is cleared, and we're left with a picture much like the comics about Batman's later years.

[StrainedEyes]

Except that Venom wasn't left ambiguous at all, he was clearly done for.

With Two Face, there's no "Oh, he's definitely dead" moment. Sure, they have a memorial service for Harvey, but if he was still alive (and let's say he is for the sake of argument) they would have to pretend he's dead to let Batman take the fall for his crimes. They obviously can't let people see the living Harvey Dent with half a face who has become a murderer, so they have to hide him and tell everyone he died while he was still the shining white knight of Gotham. And then Batman is there to take the fall for the unexplained deaths, since Dent couldn't have done it, he was a good guy.

And in response to the argument that Two Face coming back would ruin the end of TDK, I disagree. True, short-term it would take away the power of what Batman has to do, but in the comics he's not always hated by everyone in Gotham. At some point they start liking him again. And the easiest way for his name to be cleared would be for Two Face to resurface again in the third movie, and claim responsibility for the killings. He would probably then proceed to target Batman and Gordon if not others as well. Long story short, Two Face is defeated somehow, Batman's name is cleared, and we're left with a picture much like the comics about Batman's later years.

I'd say Venom evaporating is just as, if not more ambiguous then Harvey obviously lying motionless for a 5 minute scene.

[chaseter]

^Venom blew up and Harvey fell to his death...what more do you want?

[JAWS]

Here is my question.


Sorry about the big print I just hope to get an answer.

How did Gordon say Harvey Dies? Meaning how do they cover it up?


Did Batman take the blame for that death also? I don't recall that being mentioned.

Did they say he was just never found after the Hospital blew up? Of course that would open the same can of worms about the cops being at the site of Havey's death.

Did they try to say that he just happend to be at the same place as Gordon's family and he took a bad step.

Unless Batman took the blame for that death also, I think there is no question he is still alive and in Arkham. Because covering up his fake death would be just as hard as covering up his real one. So why not be alive.

[JP]

The was nothing ambiguous about the death of Two-Face.

[Hamill-Joker]

^Venom blew up and Harvey fell to his death...what more do you want?

I want your avatar.

[StrainedEyes]

^Venom blew up and Harvey fell to his death...what more do you want?

I want people to accept that Harvey is a goner. :cwink:

[Dark Knight]

Hmm...I wonder what the novelization officially says?

[StrainedEyes]

Hmm...I wonder what the novelization officially says?

The novelization says that he breaks his neck and dies. But, that's not really anything official.

[JAWS]

Again I ask.


How did Gordon say Harvey Dies? Meaning how do they cover it up?



Did Batman take the blame for that death also? I don't recall that being mentioned.

Did they say he was just never found after the Hospital blew up? Of course that would open the same can of worms about the cops being at the site of Havey's death.

Did they try to say that he just happend to be at the same place as Gordon's family and he took a bad step.

Unless Batman took the blame for that death also, I think there is no question he is still alive and in Arkham. Because covering up his fake death would be just as hard as covering up his real one. So why not be alive

[NewYorkSpider]

I hope they don't bring Harvey back. He got his revenge and that's all he wanted. I don't think he would commit more crimes. It wouldn't make much sense. Right? Eckhart did a tremendous job in the role. As much as I would love too see his character in a sequel, I think it's best to leave it be.

[Dark Knight]

The novelization says that he breaks his neck and dies. But, that's not really anything official.


Guess he is dead then...

[Tron5000]

Man, the "Harvey is dead; GET OVER IT" crowd is becoming quite tiresome. The ending was ambiguous. Get over yourselves, unless you happen to have spoken with Chris Nolan.

Seen the film 3 times. Ending inconclusive. But if you really need to keep presenting your interpretation as fact in order to feel good about yourselves, go right on ahead.

[StrainedEyes]

Again I ask.


How did Gordon say Harvey Dies? Meaning how do they cover it up?



Did Batman take the blame for that death also? I don't recall that being mentioned.

Did they say he was just never found after the Hospital blew up? Of course that would open the same can of worms about the cops being at the site of Havey's death.

Did they try to say that he just happend to be at the same place as Gordon's family and he took a bad step.

Unless Batman took the blame for that death also, I think there is no question he is still alive and in Arkham. Because covering up his fake death would be just as hard as covering up his real one. So why not be alive

You watched the same movie we did. We can't guess anymore than you can about what exactly they will say happened to Harvey.

[JAWS]

I get the 'hidden agenda' stretch people are claiming could lead to Two Face just being locked up in Arkham, but how does that work? There was a battalion of GCPD around the perimeter of that locale. Wouldn't someone say "where's the body"? The cops had that place surrounded and were fastly closing in (even though they didn't know Dent was there). How much time would Gordon have to hide the body, quarter off that section to keep people from looking there, ran back upstairs and tell Barbara and the kids not to mention anything about Harvey being there and whatever else it would take to pull this ruse off? Did Two Face just eventually get up and run off on his own? How does this 'he's still alive' argument work? :huh:

This is why I have the question. Unless Batman takes the blame for Harvey's Death Gordon would have to do almost all of that anyways.

[BATS N' HORNETS]

i'm not even sure if the next film will involve the same people????????????

maybe we'll see new director/ writer/ actors

[Savage]

Considering he fell from about the same height as Maroni I think it's possible that he survived but if they say he's dead, he's dead...Funny enough, they never actually said he's dead. :huh:

For now I'll accept he's dead and if they show otherwise I'll just be pleasantly surprised.

[Dark Knight]

Man, the "Harvey is dead; GET OVER IT" crowd is becoming quite tiresome. The ending was ambiguous. Get over yourselves, unless you happen to have spoken with Chris Nolan.

Seen the film 3 times. Ending inconclusive. But if you really need to keep presenting your interpretation as fact in order to feel good about yourselves, go right on ahead.



I agree.....

[I Am The Knight]

Man, the "Harvey is dead; GET OVER IT" crowd is becoming quite tiresome. The ending was ambiguous. Get over yourselves, unless you happen to have spoken with Chris Nolan.

Seen the film 3 times. Ending inconclusive. But if you really need to keep presenting your interpretation as fact in order to feel good about yourselves, go right on ahead.

I agree...But it works both ways. :o

[JAWS]

You watched the same movie we did. We can't guess anymore than you can about what exactly they will say happened to Harvey.



Well That's why I asked. I could not remember if Batman took the fall for Harvey's Death. I assume he did not. And that is why I really believe now that Harvey is not dead.

If Gordon does not blame Batman he has to do a ton of covering up, Just as much as he would have to do to if to cover up a fake death. So if you can believe he can pull off one you should believe he can pull off the other. Unless of course he blames the Bat.

But then how do you get out of that sickey situation. How do you explain that Batman did not do any of those things? If they fake a death and say he just was never found after the Hospital blew up, well then when Harvy shows up in 3 then problem solved. Otherwise Gordon has to admit that he lied about everything to protect Gothom which just wouldnt fly.

Now some have said that Batman won't be cleared and will go on the villian in Gothem eyes. I just don't believe that. Bob Kane would roll over in his grave. No more Bat signal, No more Batman and Gordon meetings. Just can't accept that.

Add to that all the other clues

Maroni's fall, Batmans fall, Eyes closed, no metion of Harvey being dead by gordon or Batman, no casket.


Two Face LIVES

[Tron5000]

I agree...But it works both ways. :o

I don't see many people presenting the "Harvey is alive" theory as fact. It's ambiguous and open to interpretation.

[Figs]

No, that speech didn't change anything in regards to Gordon, it just made Harvey include himself and Batman. His goal was to punish Gordon by making him lose the person he loved most. His plan never change. Harvey had the gun to the kid's head and told Gordon to say everything would be alright.

The flip was for Gordon's son, still. Harvey did not want to kill Gordon, he wanted to make him suffer.


Exactly!

[I Am The Knight]

I don't see many people presenting the "Harvey is alive" theory as fact. It's ambiguous and open to interpretation.

I know. I personally believe Dent is alive :word: But will accept his death if the director comes forward...

[millennium movies]

I'm not gonna read every single page of this topic as there's too many but i'm thinking the reason Rachel & Batman didn't die in the first fall was because he slowed down the fall with his cape, you can see it flapping open briefly a few times but he never gets it to fully open, so therefor only making the impact less violent. I mean come on, with all that "realism" Nolan seem to be stuck on, i doubt a rubber suit can protect you from such falls. Think about it, if a metal object falls from the same height, its pretty destroyed once on the ground, now how could this material that's much thinner than that and not to mention less solid as well, withstand such a fall/impact. It doesn't make sense, you guys are digging way to deep. Harvey is alive and they better bring him back!

[Spider-Fan]

Did you read anything I wrote? No, he was giving a speech. There was NOTHING to indicate a funeral at all. I don't remember him saying he was dead. As a matter of fact, I remember the entire ending purposefully dancing around the fact if he was dead or not.



Gordon says Harvey Dent died a hero in the speech. You can hear him. It is a funeral.

[millennium movies]

It's called a memorial service people...there's no funerals in the middle of downtown.

[Hamill-Joker]

I mean come on, with all that "realism" Nolan seem to be stuck on, i doubt a rubber suit can protect you from such falls. Think about it, if a metal object falls from the same height, its pretty destroyed once on the ground, now how could this material that's much thinner than that and not to mention less solid as well, withstand such a fall/impact. It doesn't make sense, you guys are digging way to deep. Harvey is alive and they better bring him back!

How about, Harvey was not prepared to fall and Batman was.

Batman was hanging down when he fell, Harvey fell off the floor.

Batman's cape could have like in the original fall you talked about, slowed his decent.

His suit helped to protect him.

[Spider-Fan]

It's called a memorial service people...there's no funerals in the middle of downtown.

Same thing! Just one is more of a spectacle. Both are held for the same thing. Mourning DEAD people!

[magus]

Gordon says Harvey Dent died a hero in the speech. You can hear him. It is a funeral.

1. It was a memorial service

2. Dent died with Rachel. Two-Face could very well still be kicking around.

[Savage]

Same thing! Just one is more of a spectacle. Both are held for the same thing. Mourning DEAD people!

Exactly. Something they wanted the world to believe. Harvey Dent died Harvey Dent. There was no Two-face. That's the cover up.

[Superman4ever]

Edit!

[Ratatat]

Man, the "Harvey is dead; GET OVER IT" crowd is becoming quite tiresome. The ending was ambiguous. Get over yourselves, unless you happen to have spoken with Chris Nolan.

Seen the film 3 times. Ending inconclusive. But if you really need to keep presenting your interpretation as fact in order to feel good about yourselves, go right on ahead.

LOL!

[Spider-Fan]

1. It was a memorial service

2. Dent died with Rachel. Two-Face could very well still be kicking around.

Dent is dead. This whole cover up thing everyone is proposing makes NO sense. Even if it were possible he lived after falling 4 stories when he's not prepared for it, you guys fail to see the big picture. Dent beiing alive makes hiding Two-Face really hard. If he is dead, it is easy. If he were alive and got out, Batman's sacrifice at the end of TDK is not nearly as impactful. In fact, it loses most of its impact since people would then see the Joker is right (thus he wins).

Not to mention 0 signs of life and a memorial service.

Exactly. Something they wanted the world to believe. Harvey Dent died Harvey Dent. There was no Two-face. That's the cover up.

EXACTLY!!! Dent being locked up somewhere is not the cover up, and if it were, it would be really hard to maintain. Dent dying was very symbolic, and many people on this site are ignoring the symbolism of his death.

[Savage]

No-one's saying that. They're just saying it's possible that he's still alive. Just like halfway through the movie it was possible that Gordon was still alive.

The cover up is what Harvey did as Two-face. It's why Batman took the fall for him. Two-face could be dead but he could also be alive and incarcerated somewhere (after spending a long time in the infirmary anyway).

It's just a possibility. The only one speaking in absolutes here are you and that millenium guy.

[millennium movies]

Same thing! Just one is more of a spectacle. Both are held for the same thing. Mourning DEAD people!

Memorial service, downtown, just like Loeb's memorial. Funerals are actual burying of the casket, have you seen that done in the middle of a city? I haven't...

[Spider-Fan]

No-one's saying that. They're just saying it's possible that he's still alive. Just like halfway through the movie it was possible that Gordon was still alive.

The cover up is what Harvey did as Two-face. It's why Batman took the fall for him. Two-face could be dead but he could also be alive and incarcerated somewhere (after spending a long time in the infirmary anyway).

It's just a possibility. The only one speaking in absolutes here are you and that millenium guy.

Believe me, I am not the only one saying he is absolutely one way or the other. I am all for open to interpretation, but here I just don't see it.

[the_monk]

Was Harvey wearing a partially burned suit after the hospital? I vaguely remember this.