The Fate of Two Face

[Charlie The Red]

I'm leaning towards Black Mask instead of Penguin, simply because he's never been done before and he's a ruthless bastard in the comics.

Oh and when I say Firefly and Deadshot, I'm talking BIT parts. God knows you couldn't center a whole movie around those guys.

[CaptainClown]

Well I say penguin and Black Mask because I want to see two factions fighting for power. Penguin being the faction that employs mostly "freaks" like in Gotham Underground (which was bad imo)

[Charlie The Red]

Ah ok, now I see where you're coming from.

That might be cool, I just don't see how they could make the Penguin believable. I've never really been a fan of that character.

It'd be great to see a scene where Black Mask and his gang are having a dining room meeting, feasting on a roasted penguin haha. That guy is vicious.

[Keyser Soze]

MAYBE The Riddler if they handle him like they did in Hush.

I think, if they use The Riddler, it should be like Dini is currently using him in Detective Comics. As in, rather than being an out-and-out supervillain, he's a sleazy private investigator who's an antagonist for Batman without being outside the law. With the police hunting Batman, Edward Nigma could be brought in as an outside "expert liason" to solve the puzzle of Batman's identity, and how to hunt him down.

[CaptainClown]

Well all the penguin is, is a boss tweed like character who happens to look like a penguin since he dresses in a tux. Simply get a portly mob boss with a nickname. The penguin is genuinely not a freak but more like a business man. It could be quite easy to make a mob character who rose through the ranks because of all the turmoil in TDK because he isn't bias and hires freaks to get the job done.

[CaptainClown]

I think, if they use The Riddler, it should be like Dini is currently using him in Detective Comics. As in, rather than being an out-and-out supervillain, he's a sleazy private investigator who's an antagonist for Batman without being outside the law. With the police hunting Batman, Edward Nigma could be brought in as an outside "expert liason" to solve the puzzle of Batman's identity, and how to hunt him down.
I do love how Riddler was chatting online with Batman, Oracle, Fox (I think) etc. about the case in Batman Detective. (the story about the revenge plot against riddler)

[Charlie The Red]

I was daydreaming the other day about a prologue to the third film, where Batman catches The Riddler (with ease) as he tries to pull some small time bank heist. This in turn humiliates him.

It would be a great way to setup a third act twist if no one suspects just how intelligent the Riddler actually is, and we don't see him again until...

He's manipulated everything up until that point to outsmart Batman, controlling everything behind the scenes a la Hush

[makkerskilap]

That coin flip was for Gordon's son :cwink:


doesn't he flip it two times?

[Da_Joka]

He's neither because Nolan doesn't want to kill anyone off just in case.

[Keyser Soze]

Over on Empire, they have an interview with Aaron Eckhart. And when they ask him about who should be the villain in the next film, he says they should bring in The Riddler or The Penguin. So even he isn't holding too much stock in the survival of Two-Face. :csad:

[Johann Krauss]

pretty sure he's dead

[Da_Joka]

If Two-Face is dead, then it's just a pointless waste. I liked the idea of Scarecrow + Joker working together.

[Viper81]

The question shouldn't be whether or not he's DEAD.

The question should be, why the hell would you want him alive? What purpose would he serve to a sequel at this point? To clear Batman's name? Ok, but at what cost?

If he is alive, and he returns in the next movie, then they are going to destroy the entire premise of THIS movie that they spent 2.5 hours to build.

Whether he's dead or alive is immaterial. For the sake of continuity, let's all hope he IS dead.

I'd just like to reiterate this point.

[dario2739]

Saw the film last night in the first UK preview screenings - loved Two-Face and was disappointed they killed him off! It's not the point of whether he'd be in a third film, I just think it's a big mistake to kill off a major character like that, like Burton did with the Joker!
Would've been nice to have a scene in Arkham in a third film where Batman goes past the Joker and Two-Face in adjoining cells.

[jackjack924]

He would have been a great villan in the third film (if they convince Nolan to make a third one) I believe that his story was over in this one. It's not about what we want, it's what the story needs. The story needed him to die because his character's story arc was over. Harvey was dead, Two Face had won, the Joker had won. Gotham's soul would have been owned by the Joker if he lived. "Harvey Two Face the child/cop killer." Batman could not let that happen. He threw himself over a ledge, pretty much killed Two Face to save the child, and ultimatly to save Harvey's reputation as the white knight. All for Gotham because he is what ever Gotham needs him to be.

[typeorocks]

Nobody checked his pulse... he was just lying there. Maybe the gordon fake death was somewhat of a hint about what the risk's police would take to protect people.

[EddieNashton]

Maroni made a statement earlier about how that particular fall wouldn't kill him and that one was longer than Dent's. Also, they made sure Harvey "died" a hero. He'll be back.

[ShadowBoxing]

I'd just like to reiterate this point.
Why, because it's not a very good one? Movies that are separate from each other can have totally separate adgendas. Movies only have to be complete within themselves. Technically Alien 3 negates the purpose of Aliens, as Terminator 2 negates Terminator. Each movie undoing endings and events from the one prior. As many point out, no one checked his pulse, no one said the word "dead", and no one even showed a casket. Furthermore the coin landed "life face" up as he fell, which in and of itself is ominous. Even this movie seems to throw away multiple aspects of Batman's character from the previous Batman Begins, and truly not all of it can be chaulked up to character growth.

[Two-Face]

I think he's dead but I do want to see him back in 3rd movie.

[Keyser Soze]

He would have been a great villan in the third film (if they convince Nolan to make a third one) I believe that his story was over in this one. It's not about what we want, it's what the story needs. The story needed him to die because his character's story arc was over. Harvey was dead, Two Face had won, the Joker had won. Gotham's soul would have been owned by the Joker if he lived. "Harvey Two Face the child/cop killer." Batman could not let that happen. He threw himself over a ledge, pretty much killed Two Face to save the child, and ultimatly to save Harvey's reputation as the white knight. All for Gotham because he is what ever Gotham needs him to be.

Really good post.

[chaseter]

He's dead. Batman was able to brace himself for the fall because he was hanging on to the edge before hand, whereas Harvey just plummeted instantly. Bats also clipped those planks of wood, and had the added protection of his suit.

Of course, you can argue that Two Face's absolute fate was ambigious because we didn't see his body in a casket - but we didn't see Loeb's or Rachel's* for that matter - but I don't think they will be coming back! Besides, as mentioned, if he does come back it will feel like a cheap twist and will tarnish the ending of The Dark Knight.

I was really disappointed that Two Face died; I was really hoping that we'd get to see him again in another film and that he would be a constant reminder of Batman's failiure. Also, I may be alone here, but I think it would have been a greater tragedy for him to still be alive because it means he becomes the symbol for everything that he stood against as "the white knight" and that to me is worse because the old Harvey Dent is dead anyway.

In hindsight, we have now lost two great villains, because I very much doubt we'll have another Joker.

*Just realised, they didn't have a funeral or anything for Rachel, but I suppose that Two Face's events happened just a day or so after, so they didn't have time.
OMG Rachel and Lao and the Russian and the fat guy with the phone in his stomach are all still alive because we didn't see them in a casket.

[chaseter]

all these things....the coin landing face up, not hearing the actual words "he's dead" and the maroni quote about not dying from that height is Nolan just screwing with us.We'll just have to wait and see!!:woot:
The coin was not for Dent for the last time:o It was a flip for Harvey's son and it symbolically landed on the live side. Maroni fell from 2 stories high, Dent fell from 4-5 stories high.

[Hypestyle]

two-face should come back as a gangster..

[GhostPoet]

I doubt he's coming back...it'll be the Riddler.

but if he did...I bet he'd take over the mob, since they are kind of without a leader right now.

[ShadowBoxing]

The coin was not for Dent for the last time:o It was a flip for Harvey's son and it symbolically landed on the live side. Maroni fell from 2 stories high, Dent fell from 4-5 stories high.
I've survived a fall like that when I was young, he wasn't that high up. He'd be laid up for quite a while, but not dead. If they wanted him dead they should've picked a higher window, but they didn't. Now with Joker actually dead, it's quite possible they'll use the villain from the last one. Especially if their using The Long Halloween and Dark Victory for inspiration, as there are multiple events in those stories where Harvey seemingly dies, even one where he falls off a cliff after being shot by the Joker.

[chaseter]

I've survived a fall like that when I was young, he wasn't that high up. He'd be laid up for quite a while, but not dead. If they wanted him dead they should've picked a higher window, but they didn't. Now with Joker actually dead, it's quite possible they'll use the villain from the last one. Especially if their using The Long Halloween and Dark Victory for inspiration, as there are multiple events in those stories where Harvey seemingly dies, even one where he falls off a cliff after being shot by the Joker.
I am all for bringing back Two Face...don't get me wrong. But this was all shot before Heath's death who was signed on for 2 movies. After his death as you said, they lost their villian for the 3rd movie so now they are considering bringing back Eckhart. However, this was after everything was written and shot. So, in the context of TDK, Two Face is dead. Sure they can bring him back with some lame excuse or line. Two Face's arc just was opened and closed in TDK. He lost everything, even his life.

[Sunburned Hand]

Um... If Two Face is dead, doesn't that mean Batman killed him - which goes against something that has been hammered home about a million times in both TDK and BB, namely that Batman doesn't kill. If Two Face is dead, then Batman killed him, and everything that proceeded those final scenes in both TDK and BB is rendered meaningless. THAT is why it is almost guaranteed that Dent will be back.

[ShadowBoxing]

I am all for bringing back Two Face...don't get me wrong. But this was all shot before Heath's death who was signed on for 2 movies. After his death as you said, they lost their villian for the 3rd movie so now they are considering bringing back Eckhart. However, this was after everything was written and shot. So, in the context of TDK, Two Face is dead. Sure they can bring him back with some lame excuse or line. Two Face's arc just was opened and closed in TDK. He lost everything, even his life.
Emma Thomas already said the ending for Harvey was purposefully ambiguous, you can read whatever retroactive post-Ledger death logic into that, but that is what she said. Also, most of my friends who saw the movie didn't think he died at all, actually. They said as much to me, assuming he would be the next movie villain. Now maybe they are wrong, but it certainly indicates that they didn't do a very good job of convincing the audience of his death. Obviously comic nerds are going to debate this to no end because it's what we do, and I'd bet Nolan knows that already, but as far as the general public I've talked to is concerned, that wasn't his finale. Furthermore, I've been internet restricted for the past two weeks, and I didn't even realize people were even discussing his death until, well, yesterday. It wouldn't take phenomenally unbelievable writing to bring him back either, what with Arkham Aslyum and Gordon's willingness to lie to the public.

[chaseter]

Um... If Two Face is dead, doesn't that mean Batman killed him - which goes against something that has been hammered home about a million times in both TDK and BB, namely that Batman doesn't kill. If Two Face is dead, then Batman killed him, and everything that proceeded those final scenes in both TDK and BB is rendered meaningless. THAT is why it is almost guaranteed that Dent will be back.
Think about one of the themes of the movie...kill or be killed. Do you think Batman was going to sit by and watch Gordon Jr. die? Batman killed him and became the hero Gotham needed him to be...not the one he wanted or everyone wanted him to be...and that is a killer.

[chaseter]

Emma Thomas already said the ending for Harvey was purposefully ambiguous, you can read whatever retroactive post-Ledger death logic into that, but that is what she said. Also, most of my friends who saw the movie didn't think he died at all, actually. They said as much to me, assuming he would be the next movie villain. Now maybe they are wrong, but it certainly indicates that they didn't do a very good job of convincing the audience of his death. Obviously comic nerds are going to debate this to no end because it's what we do, and I'd bet Nolan knows that already, but as far as the general public I've talked to is concerned, that wasn't his finale. Furthermore, I've been internet restricted for the past two weeks, and I didn't even realize people were even discussing his death until, well, yesterday. It wouldn't take phenomenally unbelievable writing to bring him back either, what with Arkham Aslyum and Gordon's willingness to lie to the public.
No, they didn't do a good job as by the number of pages in this thread:woot: But then again they couldn't get gorey due to the rating restrictions and pushing them as far as they could go. Like I said, I would love Two Face to be back now that Heath is gone but I don't want a lame return either. I think Emma's quote is after Heath's death and looking forward to the future of the franchise. But thematically speaking in context for TDK, Two Face's arc is complete.

[ShadowBoxing]

No, they didn't do a good job as by the number of pages in this thread:woot: But then again they couldn't get gorey due to the rating restrictions and pushing them as far as they could go. Like I said, I would love Two Face to be back now that Heath is gone but I don't want a lame return either. I think Emma's quote is after Heath's death and looking forward to the future of the franchise. But thematically speaking in context for TDK, Two Face's arc is complete.I seriously don't think they'd need a bunch of pointless explanation as to why or why not he is back, though. One thing I liked about this movie is that it returned the mystique back to the Bat-franchise, something they tried to do away with in Batman Begins.

[Sunburned Hand]

Think about one of the themes of the movie...kill or be killed. Do you think Batman was going to sit by and watch Gordon Jr. die? Batman killed him and became the hero Gotham needed him to be...not the one he wanted or everyone wanted him to be...and that is a killer.

No, that goes against EVERYTHING preceding, both in this film and BB. Not only that, it goes against decades of comic tradition. Batman is not a killer. This was one of the main, most explicit points of the film - weren't you paying attention? Why didn't Batman kill the Joker when he was trying to detonate the barges - isn't that a clear example of 'kill or be killed,' in fact, a better one as more lives were at stake? Because he doesn't kill. If Batman killed Harvey just to save Gordon's son, then why shouldn't he kill the villain in the next film, wouldn't that save a lot of time and hassle? And if Dent is dead, my question is, where does that leave the relentlessly laid on references to the fact that Batman 'has one rule?'

[Sunburned Hand]

Also, 'kill or be killed' is not exactly one of the themes of this movie. I take it you're referring to the barges, which actually is more like 'kill or don't kill.' The passengers on both decide not to kill, which ultimately defeats the Joker, who wanted, indeed assumed they would kill. So like Batman, who praises their actions, they show themselves to be good in the fact that they choose not to kill. Like Batman. Which separates them from criminals like the Joker, who do kill. See?

[chaseter]

I guess you missed the entire Gordon prologue.

[chaseter]

Also, 'kill or be killed' is not exactly one of the themes of this movie. I take it you're referring to the barges, which actually is more like 'kill or don't kill.' The passengers on both decide not to kill, which ultimately defeats the Joker, who wanted, indeed assumed they would kill. So like Batman, who praises their actions, they show themselves to be good in the fact that they choose not to kill. Like Batman. Which separates them from criminals like the Joker, who do kill. See?
Joker's tryouts, Joker's explanation to Dent, Joker's explanation to the mob, Joker's bank robbery, the barge, etc. etc. etc. It shows how much Joker rubbed off on Batman. He was going to quit after seeing what he had to become to stop men like him. And in the end, he became that man he didn't want to become just like Dent became the man he didn't want to become...at the master plan of whom? Joker. You see, the movie runs deeper than what you are hinting at.

[Sunburned Hand]

I guess you missed the entire Gordon prologue.

I guess I did, can you explain it to me - which bit was that?

[chaseter]

I guess I did, can you explain it to me - which bit was that?
Explaining how Batman became the hero Gotham needed him to be, not the hero that Gotham wanted. Batman became the killer so that Dent's reputation and work would not be tarnished.

[Sunburned Hand]

Joker's tryouts, Joker's explanation to Dent, Joker's explanation to the mob, Joker's bank robbery, the barge, etc. etc. etc. It shows how much Joker rubbed off on Batman. He was going to quit after seeing what he had to become to stop men like him. And in the end, he became that man he didn't want to become just like Dent became the man he didn't want to become...at the master plan of whom? Joker. You see, the movie runs deeper than what you are hinting at.

How is Joker's explanation to the mob 'kill or be killed'? - unless they kill Batman, they will be arrested and tried under due process, not killed. Moreover, they are killers already. How is the barge kill or be killed - as I explained the ultimate choice that was made there was one of not killing over killing . How is the bank robbery 'kill or be killed'? Joker just killed his goons. The tryouts, I'll give you that, but that in no way constitutes a theme.

So, by your reading of the film, Batman is now a killer. He has become 'the man he didn't want to be' (i.e. a killer). So how do you see the next film progressing? I suppose you're expecting Batman to go on a rampage slaughtering criminals, because now he has no rules. Now he's a killer, and he does what he has to in order to stop men like, well you know who.

[Sunburned Hand]

Explaining how Batman became the hero Gotham needed him to be, not the hero that Gotham wanted. Batman became the killer so that Dent's reputation and work would not be tarnished.

No, this explained that Batman would take the blame for [I]Harvey's[I] murders - this does not mean he killed Harvey, for reasons my earlier post outlines. Also, if anything this would be an epilogue, not a prologue, but it's not really that either.

[chaseter]

So, by your reading of the film, Batman is now a killer. He has become 'the man he didn't want to be' (i.e. a killer). So how do you see the next film progressing? I suppose you're expecting Batman to go on a rampage slaughtering criminals, because now he has no rules. Now he's a killer, and he does what he has to in order to stop men like, well you know who.
Kill or be killed, dog-eat-dog, yada yada. Batman is now a killer in his own eyes and the public's eyes and the next movie will be about him redeeming himself. How dumb was your last sentence:o

[chaseter]

No, this explained that Batman would take the blame for [i]Harvey's[i] murders - this does not mean he killed Harvey, for reasons my earlier post outlines. Also, if anything this would be an epilogue, not a prologue, but it's not really that either.
Epilogue...yes excuse me.:cwink:

[Sunburned Hand]

Batman is now a killer in his own eyes and the public's eyes and the next movie will be about him redeeming himself.

How dumb is that sentence? If Dent is dead, Batman is a killer... period. Not just 'in his own eyes.' So, aside from jail time, how will Batman redeem himself?

[chaseter]

How dumb is that sentence? If Dent is dead, Batman is a killer period. Not just 'in his own eyes.' So, aside from jail time, how will Batman redeem himself?
Find Jesus Christ:o

If by your thinking, then Batman killed Ra's in the first movie because he created a situation in which Ra's could not get out of.

[Sunburned Hand]

Find Jesus Christ:o

If by your thinking, then Batman killed Ra's in the first movie because he created a situation in which Ra's could not get out of.

Perhaps, but there was still the opportunity for Ra's to save himself. Also, it is clear from all the 'one rule' stuff in TDK that Batman himself doesn't think he 'killed' Ra's. Still, the distinction is clear, on the one hand Batman did not have to intervene and 'save' someone who may well have been able to save themselves, on the other, he pushes someone off a ledge. There's no way he could justify that with all this 'but I don't have to save you' stuff. If Dent is dead, it's because of Batman shoving him over the edge, just as if Batman had let the Joker fall, the Joker's death would've directly been because of him. But Batman didn't let him fall, because he's not a killer. And that's why Dent will turn out to be alive. If he doesn't then this film is a total mess both thematically and narratively.

[chaseter]

Perhaps, but there was still the opportunity for Ra's to save himself. Also, it is clear from all the 'one rule' stuff in TDK that Batman himself doesn't think he 'killed' Ra's. Still, the distinction is clear, on the one hand Batman did not have to intervene and 'save' someone who may well have been able to save themselves, on the other, he pushes someone off a ledge. There's no way he could justify that with all this 'but I don't have to save you' stuff. If Dent is dead, it's because of Batman shoving him over the edge, just as if Batman had let the Joker fall, the Joker's death would've directly been because of him. But Batman didn't let him fall, because he's not a killer. And that's why Dent will turn out to be alive. If he doesn't then this film is a total mess both thematically and narratively.
Now do you think Batman thinks he killed Harvey?

[Sunburned Hand]

Now do you think Batman thinks he killed Harvey?

Perhaps, but it's irrelevant. I think it will be revealed fairly early on in the next film that Harvey is still in action. Or at least, it better be...:yay:

[chaseter]

Perhaps, but it's irrelevant. I think it will be revealed fairly early on in the next film that Harvey is still in action. Or at least, it better be...:yay:
It is totally relevant. He thinks he killed Harvey Dent and now will live with it. But yeah, after Heath's death, Eckhart will be back:cwink: They will write him in.

[RakuMon]

Emma Thomas already said the ending for Harvey was purposefully ambiguous, you can read whatever retroactive post-Ledger death logic into that, but that is what she said. Also, most of my friends who saw the movie didn't think he died at all, actually. They said as much to me, assuming he would be the next movie villain. Now maybe they are wrong, but it certainly indicates that they didn't do a very good job of convincing the audience of his death. Obviously comic nerds are going to debate this to no end because it's what we do, and I'd bet Nolan knows that already, but as far as the general public I've talked to is concerned, that wasn't his finale. Furthermore, I've been internet restricted for the past two weeks, and I didn't even realize people were even discussing his death until, well, yesterday. It wouldn't take phenomenally unbelievable writing to bring him back either, what with Arkham Aslyum and Gordon's willingness to lie to the public.

When and where did Emma Thomas say that? I'd like to know because even though I walked out of the theater firmly believing Dent was still alive (and having a heated debate w/ my brother about it), I just finished reading Jonah Nolan's script, and in the script at least, it clearly states that Dent broke his neck in the fall.

While I hope Harvey comes back, according to the script, he's dead Jim.

[chaseter]

When and where did Emma Thomas say that? I'd like to know because even though I walked out of the theater firmly believing Dent was still alive (and having a heated debate w/ my brother about it), I just finished reading Jonah Nolan's script, and in the script at least, it clearly states that Dent broke his neck in the fall.

While I hope Harvey comes back, according to the script, he's dead Jim.
He is dead in the context of TDK like I have been saying because it was written that way:o Heath was going to reprise his role and be one of the main villians again in 3 but with his early demise, the people involved are looking to put Dent back in to replace Joker. So now, Two Face might still be alive. But in retrospect, if Heath would have lived to be Joker, Dent would still be dead.

[Keyser Soze]

While I'd be happy to see Two-Face return, I have no objection to him being dead either. Like with The Joker, I don't NEED Two-Face in another movie, as I have him in THIS one, and he was great.

[Spider-Fan]

I don't think Two-Face will end up being in the next one. Even if the wanted Heath back for the 3rd movie. I just don't get the impression that Nolan is going in that direction (especially since I am a staunch defender of him being dead).

[Dr. Crane]

do you think they filmed a less ambiguous ending?... they finished filming last fall... so even if the death of heath led them to start thinking for the third film, and perhaps using two-face... it would have had to be filmed months earlier..

i know a lot of people are using the script to give them the answer.. but the script could have been written that way with intention... i'd be curious to see if they filmed an ending to the film with a definitive answer...

[Spider-Fan]

I think maybe they edited this in such a way where he could be brought back if absolutely neccessary (he still dies in the context of the film, but is not beyond being brought back). I still don't feel they intend to use him again, though.

["V"]

do you think they filmed a less ambiguous ending?... they finished filming last fall... so even if the death of heath led them to start thinking for the third film, and perhaps using two-face... it would have had to be filmed months earlier..

i know a lot of people are using the script to give them the answer.. but the script could have been written that way with intention... i'd be curious to see if they filmed an ending to the film with a definitive answer...

The script/art book has not been released in England yet. What does it say in there regarding the "death" of Two Face? Does it say Gordon is at his funeral?

[chaseter]

^I believe it says Two Face broke his neck and died.

[JP]

I read the script today. Says: DEAD.

[Two-Face]

That kinda sucks then huh?

[Spider-Fan]

That kinda sucks then huh?

Why does it suck? At least Two-Face was portrayed and used to near perfection in this movie. Him dying I think is stronger for the franchise as a whole.

[Two-Face]

No I was just asking a question anyway after seeing TDK I don't think he will appear in Batman 3.

[Darkknight14]

The fact that he's signed on for another is probably the same kind of thing that happened with spiderman. Dafoe was signed on for more than the one movie, but he was only really used in flashback/crazy mirror scenes. Could be the same way with harvey dent. flashbacks of him doing stuff on other cases that might arise in the next movie.

["V"]

Thanks for the info, guys. So, I guess their original intentions were for him [Two Face] to remain dead; although the actual film they shot can be construed as ambigious. Personally I think he's gone for good and any twist about him still being alive would cheapen The Dark Knight and I think it's too easy for someone of Nolan's character to use such a device. I wonder if they ever considered changing the ending after Heath's death, because now we have lost two great villains.

[Dr. Crane]

say they do a third film.. perhaps with different villains. say the dialogue in the third film is crafted in such a way to continue the ambiguity... how do you think people would react to that... everyone likes to have an opinion about it... but without resolve... will they feel about the ending of dark knight?

[Sam_Cooksey]

say they do a third film..

They do a third film

say the dialogue in the third film is crafted in such a way to continue the ambiguity...

The dialogue in the third film is crafted in such a way to continue the ambiguity

:D

[mojo-x]

If they were going to bring 2face back I would not use him in the next movie. I would use new villains but at the very end after batman stops the villain and sends him to Arkum have a very brief cameo just to let U know he is alive. Kind of a tease for Batman 4

[bullets]

Eckhart Agrees To Third Batman Film23 July 2008 9:10 AM, PDT | From wenn.com | See recent WENN news

Aaron Eckhart would reprise his role from The Dark Knight - because working with Christian Bale is "phenomenal".

Eckhart, who plays District Attorney Harvey Dent in the sequel, confesses he "absolutely" would star in a third Batman film.

He tells WENN, "To work with Christian (Bale) all over again, and the cast, would be phenomenal. I think this movie is a movie of a lifetime."




This doesn't really confirm or deny anything but it leads to some type of hope

[Mister Reese]

When and where did Emma Thomas say that? I'd like to know because even though I walked out of the theater firmly believing Dent was still alive (and having a heated debate w/ my brother about it), I just finished reading Jonah Nolan's script, and in the script at least, it clearly states that Dent broke his neck in the fall.

While I hope Harvey comes back, according to the script, he's dead Jim.



scroll back a few pages.. its is posted.. from an ign article..


i dont get how so many people are so dense to believe he is definitely dead..

emma already confirmed they left it ambiguous... that ends the argument..

[hegele]

Emma confirmed to IGN that it was left ambiguous.

[Nepenthes]

Eckhart Agrees To Third Batman Film23 July 2008 9:10 AM, PDT | From wenn.com | See recent WENN news

Aaron Eckhart would reprise his role from The Dark Knight - because working with Christian Bale is "phenomenal".

Eckhart, who plays District Attorney Harvey Dent in the sequel, confesses he "absolutely" would star in a third Batman film.

He tells WENN, "To work with Christian (Bale) all over again, and the cast, would be phenomenal. I think this movie is a movie of a lifetime."




This doesn't really confirm or deny anything but it leads to some type of hope

LINK

[Voyeur]

I'd be ecstatic if Two Face came back...but if he doesn't, I'm still incredibly satisfied with TDK's finale!

[bosef982]

This is directly from the shooting script I purchased:

DENT
I'm about to. Tell your son it's going to be
all right, Gordon. Lie. Like I lied.

Gordon looks up. Pained. Locks eyes with his son.

GORDON
It's going to be all right, son.

Dent FLIPS the coin. High. Dent's eyes FOLLOW the coin up -- Batman
HURLS himself at Dent and the boy.

All three of them VANISH over the edge. A TERRIBLE CRASH -- then silence, but for the sound of DENT'S COIN, SPINNING on the floor at the edge of the hole.

Gordon, horrified, RUNS to the edge -- peers down --

Dent lies at the bottom of the hole, his neck broken. DEAD.

The coin stops spinning, GOOD SIDE UP.

[Va3H]

I guess we will just bicker and argue over it until Batman 3 comes out.

[upsincefour]

The fact that he's signed on for another is probably the same kind of thing that happened with spiderman. Dafoe was signed on for more than the one movie, but he was only really used in flashback/crazy mirror scenes. Could be the same way with harvey dent. flashbacks of him doing stuff on other cases that might arise in the next movie.

this is entirely possible, but what I know and have heard about Nolan is that he strives to do everything in as much a linear fashion as he can. I think that this is one of those things that we just won't know for sure until the third film comes out, which of course they will do. So far it has broken nearly every record on the books, so a third is just about guaranteed. As far as several endings being filmed, I think that is a definite possibility, considering the untimely death of Mr. Ledger; that could have thrown a massive wrench in the spokes of dozens of potential arcs. Just my opinions..

[Cunning Stunts]

I refuse to believe he's dead for a few reasons:

1: After the stunt Jim Gordon pulled (the one straight out of The Long Halloween), I can't believe that a major villain in the Batman mythos would die so easily.

2: The memorial at the end of the movie was for Harvey Dent, not Two-Face.

3: Two-Face is a major villain in the Batman mythos.

[bosef982]

Guys, the script speaks for itself.

[chaseter]

Emma confirmed to IGN that it was left ambiguous.

This is directly from the shooting script I purchased:


DENT

I'm about to. Tell your son it's going to be
all right, Gordon. Lie. Like I lied.

Gordon looks up. Pained. Locks eyes with his son.


GORDON

It's going to be all right, son.

Dent FLIPS the coin. High. Dent's eyes FOLLOW the coin up -- Batman
HURLS himself at Dent and the boy.

All three of them VANISH over the edge. A TERRIBLE CRASH -- then silence, but for the sound of DENT'S COIN, SPINNING on the floor at the edge of the hole.

Gordon, horrified, RUNS to the edge -- peers down --

Dent lies at the bottom of the hole, his neck broken. DEAD.

The coin stops spinning, GOOD SIDE UP.

Emma didn't read the shooting script then.

[DeGenerate10]

I refuse to believe he's dead for a few reasons:

1: After the stunt Jim Gordon pulled (the one straight out of The Long Halloween), I can't believe that a major villain in the Batman mythos would die so easily.

2: The memorial at the end of the movie was for Harvey Dent, not Two-Face.

3: Two-Face is a major villain in the Batman mythos.


Of course it was for Dent because they won't have a memorial for Two-Face.

3. The Joker, Penguin, and Two Face are MAJOR villains in the Batman mythos but that didn't stop them from dying in the last franchise.

[Cunning Stunts]

Of course it was for Dent because they won't have a memorial for Two-Face.

3. The Joker, Penguin, and Two Face are MAJOR villains in the Batman mythos but that didn't stop them from dying in the last franchise.

Yes, but I've learned that with comic characters, you have to take it by who they're directly referencing. Especially with Harvey Dent. Take the Hush storyline for example, he returns as Harvey Dent and

"kills" Hush.

However, in stories like The Dark Knight Returns, Harvey Dent gets constructive surgery,

But Two-Face takes over his mind.

Also, the old series of movies just mowed through villains, and I didn't really care for the fact that they killed off a villain in each of the first three movies. They didn't stay completely true to the running mythos of Batman, and that series would have died out much more quickly than this series has the potential to (although this series, I think, should be kept rather short and sweet).

[Nepenthes]

I refuse to believe he's dead for a few reasons:

1: After the stunt Jim Gordon pulled (the one straight out of The Long Halloween), I can't believe that a major villain in the Batman mythos would die so easily.

2: The memorial at the end of the movie was for Harvey Dent, not Two-Face.

3: Two-Face is a major villain in the Batman mythos.

you're 1st and 2nd reasons are the same :cwink:. And really by now it should be clear that the comics and movies differ in major ways. Ra's is a major villain, didn't he die as well?

Two-Face being dead is central to the resolution of TDK and the entire story leading up to it. That to me is the most important reason why he will stay dead.

[K.B.]

He is dead there is no seeing past it. I've seen it twice now and both times:

DEAD!

[Cunning Stunts]

you're 1st and 2nd reasons are the same :cwink:. And really by now it should be clear that the comics and movies differ in major ways. Ra's is a major villain, didn't he die as well?

Two-Face being dead is central to the resolution of TDK and the entire story leading up to it. That to me is the most important reason why he will stay dead.

Did you mean my first and third? If so, I kind of did that on purpose, just to stress Two-Face's importance in Batman's stories.


I wouldn't mind his death one bit, actually. In fact, I'm with you 100%, that if Two-Face really is dead, that it served as the resolution to the TDK storyline. However, I just can't believe him to be dead given my reasons.

And while, yes, I realize Ra's is dead, Ra's is also known for his use of the Lazarus pits... While I highly doubt he'll be back, it's always left open, which I'm sure Nolan intended to do... Even if it's just to mess with the viewers' minds.

[kevin2323]

He is dead there is no seeing past it. I've seen it twice now and both times:

DEAD!

nubsauces don't know how to use the phrase "IMO".

[K.B.]

What the f**k is "nubsauces"?!?

Friggin' kids can't speak english these days....

[The son becomes]

Finally got to see it here in the UK and I hope he's not dead. I think he is but for me he was way underused and I felt a little short changed by killing him off so quickly, though it wasn't anywhere near enough to spoil the best film I've seen in a very long time.

[Rogzilla]

Emma didn't read the shooting script then.

Well, I am sure she did. Do you not know what it means to be "shot ambiguously?" It doesn't matter what was in the shooting script. That was only the one part of the creative process and does not always reflect what the director shot and how he edited it.

I am going to help everyone out and remind them (and teach them if they didn't properly know) what the term ambiguous means.

From dictionary.com

1-open to or having several possible meanings or interpretations

SO, when we are saying (including the films producer) that his death scene was shot ambiguously, then we are saying Nolan shot it on that day and edited it so that it could be open to multiple interpretations. Meaning that, no matter what the script, novelization (which is never canon) or anything outside of the final film says, if people want to believe he is alive, then that is perfectly acceptable. If people want to believe he died, then that too is perfectly acceptable. It is all about what your opinion is. I mean, its like the creative team wanted to create...I dunno, something stupid like discourse!

The only way it will be confirmed one way or the other is if Chris Nolan says so (and he wont, he doesn't strike me as the type who likes to over explain his work...also, Emma Thomas has a pretty good idea what he was thinking as she is his wife) or in a sequel it is firmly established.

Also, KB, relax, nubsauce is just another term for noob, as in newbie. All that person was saying was that MAYBE you shouldn't state opinion as fact. So take a breather and remember...its just a movie.

[Nepenthes]

I feel like some nubsauce now

[Jokers_Wild]

^exactly. it really is open to interpretation, and Chris filmed it that way. even if they don't bring him back for the third, someone could still believe Two-Face was locked up in Arkham...not likely, but they could believe that.

[CJWilkie]

he could be in a coma...

no?

just throwing that out there...

having said that I don't know that I'd want to see him return. he served his purpose. he served it very well. but maybe time to move on. goddamn if only Heath hadn't died...

[Keyser Soze]

I do think people would be a lot more accepting of the prospect of Two-Face dying, if Heath Ledger was still around to reprise The Joker in the next film.

["V"]

I do think people would be a lot more accepting of the prospect of Two-Face dying, if Heath Ledger was still around to reprise The Joker in the next film.

I think this is the main reason why I couldn't work out whether I liked or loved The Dark Knight. I was so disappointed to see Two Face die because it meant that we have now lost two great villains rather than just one. I mean, I personally still would have been a bit disappointed to see Two Face die regardless, but knowing that the Joker's not going to break out of Arkham and wreak more havoc in a sequel just compounds it. I wonder if, in hindsight, Nolan regrets killing him?

[JAWS]

Well, I am sure she did. Do you not know what it means to be "shot ambiguously?" It doesn't matter what was in the shooting script. That was only the one part of the creative process and does not always reflect what the director shot and how he edited it.

I am going to help everyone out and remind them (and teach them if they didn't properly know) what the term ambiguous means.

From dictionary.com

1-open to or having several possible meanings or interpretations

SO, when we are saying (including the films producer) that his death scene was shot ambiguously, then we are saying Nolan shot it on that day and edited it so that it could be open to multiple interpretations. Meaning that, no matter what the script, novelization (which is never canon) or anything outside of the final film says, if people want to believe he is alive, then that is perfectly acceptable. If people want to believe he died, then that too is perfectly acceptable. It is all about what your opinion is. I mean, its like the creative team wanted to create...I dunno, something stupid like discourse!

The only way it will be confirmed one way or the other is if Chris Nolan says so (and he wont, he doesn't strike me as the type who likes to over explain his work...also, Emma Thomas has a pretty good idea what he was thinking as she is his wife) or in a sequel it is firmly established.

Also, KB, relax, nubsauce is just another term for noob, as in newbie. All that person was saying was that MAYBE you shouldn't state opinion as fact. So take a breather and remember...its just a movie.


Well said. I am amazed at the whole "It's fact he is dead" or "It's fact he is alive" statements. I have seen this film twice now and the filmakers could go either way. I tend to feel that if Nolan returns Two face will be dead but if they have to use another director then I think they will bring him back so that the films will have more continuity since they lost their original director. But who knows.

I saw this film with with several friends who's occupations are a guidance counselor, a politcal science major, a research scientist, two bartenders, and a social worker. Non of us are idiots and we are big movie fans. We all thought the death was in question. Three of us never even considered he was dead and the rest thought it could go either way.

I was one of the ones who never considered his death until I started reading this site and thats why I posted it. Thats when I went back and asked my friends what they thought. I also never for a second thought that Doc Ock, Raz, Venom, or any of the original Batman villians were still alive. So it's not like I hold onto this idea of bringing back villians for future films. I do think it's a poor choice to kill all the villians.

And now with the films producer/wife of the director saying it was ambiguous and well over 80% of the readers here feeling it was. Then what's the argument?

[JAWS]

double post

[The Rizzler]

Harvey Dent = Dead

but

Two-Face = Not Dead

[bethehero7404]

I forget the person who said this in an article I read but the end of TDK with Two-Face was left ambiguous. So he could be dead or alive.

I have heard opinions of Jett from Batman-on-film as well as others here in the forum.

I did not like the fact that we saw Two-Face's death AGAIN on screen. It was my only gripe of the movie. I walked out mad at that part of the movie. I was so mad, I wanted to redeem myself so I saw it the next night and re-thought about it. I accepted the fact he was dead. I stared at him lying on the ground in that scene...no breathing. So, bring on the third chapter with Riddler, Catwoman and Rupert Thorn/Roland Daggat (since it seems we have Major villian, Minor villain and mob boss pattern shaping up).

[bethehero7404]

Harvey Dent = Dead

but

Two-Face = Not Dead

Curiouser and Curiouser

[magus]

It is ambiguous. The script saying Harvey is dead does not definitively make him dead for the entire series; it makes him dead in the context of this film. They put it in the script so Eckhart knows what he is doing and so if Nolan doesn't decide to use Two-Face again, he is dead. But the ending is definitely ambiguous enough that if they wanted bring him back in the next one, they could. The script saying that Dent is dead in no way prevents him from coming back nor make the ending any less ambiguous; it simply means that in the context of this movie Harvey Dent is to be thought of as dead. That's it.

[The son becomes]

In both films Nolan employed multiple villains, all used to create an increasing threat to Batman, without competing for screen time. In the Schumacher films multiple villains were used because ideas where short and it was deemed that two, three or even four are better than one. Nolan is far too clever to sink to that level.

I was disappointed that one of the great Batman villains was killed off so quickly but as was pointed out, we don't know that he's dead just that Harvey Dent is. No matter what Nolan's intention is or was at any point, he hasn't ruled anything out. After all, Gordon was dead for a short while. Often when we watch a film we can adapt ambiguities to meet our own expectations and write our own endings in order to be satisfied. If we choose to believe Two Face is alive, because it improves our enjoyment of the movie, then I think it's OK to do that.

[Dark Victory]

I think he's still alive. We didn't see a coffin only a huge picture of him. He might be locked up in Arkham under a fake name or something like that.

["V"]

How does everybody think that Gordon 'sneaked' Two Face into Arkham? Would the cops on the scene not have seen his body? Surely somebody admitted him at Arkham? Somebody would treat him. Someody would medicate him. Gordon can't exactly keep him in one room off limits and show up every day to give him some food and fill up his water. They'd never be able to keep that secret and it would eventually leak out and damage the public's faith even further.

Do we know the "five" people Gordon reported the Batman as killing? Isn't Dent one of those he 'murdered'? Even if we never get a sequel to The Dark Knight will people still believe that Harvey Two Face is alive and locked up in Arkham?

[November Rain]

I'm happy with Two face apparently dying becaue people can still believe he died in the accident the joker had for him and rachel

two face could have been locked up secretly with joker and there is where his proper two face indecisive persona could manifest, with the absence of his coin to make decisions with

it'd be a shame if he died, he could easily hold another film on his own. Dude needs a proper black and white suit though

he also needs to see his own face, to my knowledge he has yet to see it with his two eyes

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/btas/episodes/twofacep2/27.jpg

he also needs some dual berretta action

[carver55]

My opinion - Nolan's original plan was to have two face die as he served his purpose in the story line as both he and Batman "live long enough to become the villian". On top of the fact that the Joker is not killed off, so my suspicion is that Nolan was planning on having the Joker as the main villian again in the 3rd movie.

Sure it is a bit weird given Nolan's thought process on not killing everyone off, but I think the ambiguity of dent's death is people seeing what they want to see ("How could they kill off two face so quickly?"). And I agree that a "shooting script" isn't the end all be all, but isn't it likely that it is what the director intends to show on screen?

But now that Ledger is gone, I can see Nolan possibly substituting two face for the Joker as the main villian in the 3rd (the whole recast issue is another thread...) It certainly would be easy enough to say two face lived and they just sent him to Arkham. Though the one problem I see in that is how Gordon and Batman were trying to protect Harvey's reputation. I'm pretty sure people of Gotham would still recognize two face as Harvey if he's running around in the 3rd movie.

So I say two face is dead and either the joker comes back or Nolan is forced to go in a different direction with the 3rd film than he had planned...

[GhostPoet]

I think it's wishful thinking on peoples par that the Joker is coming back for the next movie. It ain't gonna happen...you can quote me...and when the 3rd movie comes out, you'll see.

I will bet you anything that it will be The Riddler. I think there's a slim chance we'll see Two-Face again...but not the Joker.

[carver55]

I just think the original intent was to have the Joker come back (hence two face's death becomes acceptable to Nolan). Like I said, the whole recasting issue is another thread. Ledger's death obviously means there are choices that Nolan now has to make that he originally wasn't going to have to...

[GhostPoet]

Batman already defeated the Jokers plot...there's no reason for him to show up a second time just so Batman has to deal with ANOTHER plot from the Joker.

[Magma Dragon]

Sorry if this has been asked before but I wanted to clarify this. I remember reading that Nolan had Eckhart perform a scene twice (once as dent, once as two face). I believe from that info that we all thought his voice or demeaner would shift around, or it would be morphed together or something. Did anyone else think this did not happen or was it so seamless we didn't notice.

[carver55]

But hasn't Batman already stopped Two Face as well? I'll give that the Joker's story line was more developed in TDK compared to Two Face, but a villian who appears to die is more likely to appear than a villian who we know for sure didn't die? A villian who is Batman's greatest enemy and has lines like "we're destined to do this forever". Or are you basing that the Joker isn't coming back simply based on Ledger's death? That I can see.

Just curious - are you a believer in the Mr. Reese theory for the Riddler? I'm of two minds - it seems too hokey for Nolan, but at the same time an obvious bridge.

[Compi716]

Sorry if this has been asked before but I wanted to clarify this. I remember reading that Nolan had Eckhart perform a scene twice (once as dent, once as two face). I believe from that info that we all thought his voice or demeaner would shift around, or it would be morphed together or something. Did anyone else think this did not happen or was it so seamless we didn't notice.
It "was it so seamless we didn't notice."

[IAmBatman]

He's alive. His chest was beating at the end.

No one else knew he was alive except Gordon, Batman, Gordon's family, and The Joker. Everyone else knew he was in the hospital. The public didnt know he survived the hospital explosion. So Gordon told everyone at the end he died, so all the criminals he put away wouldn't be freed. That's what Gordon told the Mayor in his office.

[IAmBatman]

If The Dark Knight was equal to "The Killing Joke" in most aspects, then, Nolan needs to derive from "Dark Victory" for the 3rd film.

[Keyser Soze]

I'm leaning on thinking he's dead. Thematically, it just wraps up the whole movie beautifully, and makes for a really tragic, bittersweet ending. However, there are just a bunch of little things peppered throughout the movie that serve to make his death ambiguous:

- They don't show Two-Face's death. It essentially occurs off-screen, with him already dead when the camera reveals him.

- They then have Batman fall from that height too. They could just as easily have had Batman climb back up to safety with Gordon's son. But they made a point of showing HIM fall too... and not only survive, but quickly recover from the fall.

- Maroni making a point of saying "this fall won't kill me" when he is dropped from a similar height.

- Two-Face survives the car crash, which seemed far more life-threatening than the fall.

- Gordon lying about Dent's whereabouts to prevent public panic sets a precedent of Gordon lying about what's happened to Dent in order to preserve public morale

So, while I can accept him being dead, it certainly seems like they've left it open enough to "resurrect" him, should they choose to do so. If he does return, great! More Two-Face! But if he doesn't return, I feel Harvey Dent had a great emotional journey in this film, enough to make a lasting impact without a return being necessary.

[batman11]

he also needs to see his own face, to my knowledge he has yet to see it with his two eyes

I'd think Harvey has seen his face, as it was stated in Gordon's conversation with him at the hospital that he refused skin grafts, and Harvey demanded that Gordon say his nickname. After Gordon spoke the words "Harvey Two-Face", Dent replied saying "Why should I hide who I really am?" (or something to that effect) Therefore, based on his acceptance of the nickname, I feel he's seen his new face.

[Isildur´s Heir]

He is dead, more than that is just wishful thinking.
And to be honest, i was expecting for him to blow his head off when realizing what he had become.
That fall was just.....meh

[CJWilkie]

I'm leaning on thinking he's dead. Thematically, it just wraps up the whole movie beautifully, and makes for a really tragic, bittersweet ending. However, there are just a bunch of little things peppered throughout the movie that serve to make his death ambiguous:

- They don't show Two-Face's death. It essentially occurs off-screen, with him already dead when the camera reveals him.

- They then have Batman fall from that height too. They could just as easily have had Batman climb back up to safety with Gordon's son. But they made a point of showing HIM fall too... and not only survive, but quickly recover from the fall.

- Maroni making a point of saying "this fall won't kill me" when he is dropped from a similar height.

- Two-Face survives the car crash, which seemed far more life-threatening than the fall.

- Gordon lying about Dent's whereabouts to prevent public panic sets a precedent of Gordon lying about what's happened to Dent in order to preserve public morale

So, while I can accept him being dead, it certainly seems like they've left it open enough to "resurrect" him, should they choose to do so. If he does return, great! More Two-Face! But if he doesn't return, I feel Harvey Dent had a great emotional journey in this film, enough to make a lasting impact without a return being necessary.

All fair points. I definitely picked up on the Maroni thing while watching it, though I considered Batman's armour *might* have helped him somehow...
I agree: I accept his death as a means to making a "complete film", but it sure does look like they've put in enough safety measures should they want to bring him back...

[Finlandman]

I believe that Harvey survived. Batman survived the same fall quicly with a BULLET wound. Also, I don't want to see Batman killing his enemies. I know, he had no choice, but still...

[Nepenthes]

I'm leaning on thinking he's dead. Thematically, it just wraps up the whole movie beautifully, and makes for a really tragic, bittersweet ending.

Yep. this is really all that mattes....



However, there are just a bunch of little things peppered throughout the movie that serve to make his death ambiguous:

- They don't show Two-Face's death. It essentially occurs off-screen, with him already dead when the camera reveals him.

- They then have Batman fall from that height too. They could just as easily have had Batman climb back up to safety with Gordon's son. But they made a point of showing HIM fall too... and not only survive, but quickly recover from the fall.

- Maroni making a point of saying "this fall won't kill me" when he is dropped from a similar height.

- Two-Face survives the car crash, which seemed far more life-threatening than the fall.

- Gordon lying about Dent's whereabouts to prevent public panic sets a precedent of Gordon lying about what's happened to Dent in order to preserve public morale

So, while I can accept him being dead, it certainly seems like they've left it open enough to "resurrect" him, should they choose to do so. If he does return, great! More Two-Face! But if he doesn't return, I feel Harvey Dent had a great emotional journey in this film, enough to make a lasting impact without a return being necessary.

...until you start considering the next film.

These are pretty good points, I now believe that Nolan did film TDK with the intention it would be ambiguous, that said the bold part is pretty much how I feel right now as well ^.

Question is, is there anything THAT interesting left to explore with Two-Face? TDK already did it throughout the whole movie. They were all his themes. All that would be left in B3 would be to repeat it all again just longer and fleshed out. There's no point using Two-Face if you're getting away from the themes that comprise him; and using them again is just retreading old ground.

I think the next movie needs to be vastly different once again. And best way to that is to just move on

Would normal people rather see Two-Face again over a reinterpreted Catwoman, Riddler, Bane, whoever? I think not

[COMPO]

If Dent did come back I think he'd try and target Batman and Gordon and the lie they've made because I think to him they'd have broken the system they'd lied to the people and taht would kind of block out the good it did.

[GUNSLINGER]

He is alive, Batman easily survived the fall so did Dent (Dent got the crap knocked out of him clearly) In the comics they even suggest he is dead while trying to hide him before he escapes. As far as using him in a third movie there is a whole lot of potential for Two-Face. He could really cross the line and hit rock bottom clearing Batman's name. Yet Batman will try to redeem & save him, bring Harvey back from the brink of insanity. Batman does this in the books why not in a movie.

[KILLING JOKER]

Yep. this is really all that mattes....




...until you start considering the next film.

These are pretty good points, I now believe that Nolan did film TDK with the intention it would be ambiguous, that said the bold part is pretty much how I feel right now as well ^.

Question is, is there anything THAT interesting left to explore with Two-Face? TDK already did it throughout the whole movie. They were all his themes. All that would be left in B3 would be to repeat it all again just longer and fleshed out. There's no point using Two-Face if you're getting away from the themes that comprise him; and using them again is just retreading old ground.

I think the next movie needs to be vastly different once again. And best way to that is to just move on

Would normal people rather see Two-Face again over a reinterpreted Catwoman, Riddler, Bane, whoever? I think not

I would, without a doubt.

[VII7]

i think he could be alive or dead i dont know really after seeing this movie a third time its actually quite hard to say. even though i wanna say hes alive i dont know...i mean the man survived massive burns and a freaking car crash and dies from falling off a building not even that high doubtful but ok i guess. but i voted for hes alive even though yea..

[Finlandman]

How are you (those who believe that Harvey is dead ) being so cool that Batman (maybe) killed Two-Face? No one is writing anything about that.

[Rogzilla]

He is alive, Batman easily survived the fall so did Dent (Dent got the crap knocked out of him clearly) In the comics they even suggest he is dead while trying to hide him before he escapes. As far as using him in a third movie there is a whole lot of potential for Two-Face. He could really cross the line and hit rock bottom clearing Batman's name. Yet Batman will try to redeem & save him, bring Harvey back from the brink of insanity. Batman does this in the books why not in a movie.

I personally see Two-Face, if he does come back, finishing what he started as DA, destroying the mob. As this happens, other freaks start filling the void. Penguin and the Ventriloquist. These wouldn't need to be major characters, just enough to show what Gotham is becoming and that Batman is no longer just the hero they deserve, but the hero they NEED.

[malicoire]

This movie had a ton of setups and callbacks.

Detective Ramierez's mother being put back in the hospital leads to her eventual betrayal.

Fox's use of the cellphone sonar in Lau's building in Tokyo leads to the surveillance system.

Maroni claiming that the fall wasn't high enough to kill him leads to the precedent for Harvey potentially surviving a similar fall.

I see the next film however dealing with the Joker pulling the strings from Arkham, maybe an addition of a Harley Quinn or Riddler, hell if Batman has all those copycats, think about the Joker's stable.

I also see us getting something of a Robin, but in the form of Jim Gordon's son, leading to the death of Robin stories, though I doubt they'll ever name him.

[COMPO]

hey did Fox quit at the end? or did he stay once the sonar machine blew up?

[Spider-Fan]

I would, without a doubt.

But you are not Joe Blow America. You're a comic geek. The average person by now expects new Batman villains each film, and would rather see that.

Also, I'd rather see other villains than Joker and Two-Face. They were greatin the movie, but I don't want the next movie to be a repeat of this one essentially. New them. New plot. New villains.

Plus, him dying is thematically stronger.

[Vengeance of Bane]

In the script in the art of TDK book, it says that Dent lies dead on the ground with a broken neck.

["V"]

Two Face had the force of Batman push him straight over the edge. Batman had time to brace himself; his fall was from a shorter height with less force, and he hit wooden planks which slightly broke his fall. Plus, he was in body armour!

I don't recall Maroni's fall being as high up, and we could actively see that he survived the fall because he was conscious and actually breathing and talking!!!

How would Gordon get Two Face into Arkham and keep it a secret? He'd need to transport him there (and I doubt he'd leave his family after what's just happened to go and do that); he'd need somebody to admit and care for Two Face while he's in Arkham. Gotham is corrupted; somebody would easily sell the story that Harvey Dent is still alive and residing in the local asylum.

And about Batman being responsible for Two Face's death... it wasn't intentional. He just tried to stop him from flipping the coin that would decide whether or not he'd shoot Gordon, but it sent them over the edge.

[Spider-Fan]

Maroni also landed on his legs. The script saying he had a broken neck would indicate he landed on his shoulders or head. Thus, a fall from that height would easily kill him.

Not to mention the other points V brought up. Also, Batman's body armor is obviously strong enough to allow him to live from a fall MUCH higher (see the fall he survived from the Penthouse).

[Vile]

Maroni claiming that the fall wasn't high enough to kill him leads to the precedent for Harvey potentially surviving a similar fall.


This is, by far one of the biggest 'reaches' the Not-Dead Camp employs.

[BatSpider]

In the script in the art of TDK book, it says that Dent lies dead on the ground with a broken neck.
Bin the script its says hes lying there, DEAD

[Parquagh]

Two Face had the force of Batman push him straight over the edge. Batman had time to brace himself; his fall was from a shorter height with less force, and he hit wooden planks which slightly broke his fall. Plus, he was in body armour!

I don't recall Maroni's fall being as high up, and we could actively see that he survived the fall because he was conscious and actually breathing and talking!!!

How would Gordon get Two Face into Arkham and keep it a secret? He'd need to transport him there (and I doubt he'd leave his family after what's just happened to go and do that); he'd need somebody to admit and care for Two Face while he's in Arkham. Gotham is corrupted; somebody would easily sell the story that Harvey Dent is still alive and residing in the local asylum.

And about Batman being responsible for Two Face's death... it wasn't intentional. He just tried to stop him from flipping the coin that would decide whether or not he'd shoot Gordon, but it sent them over the edge.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2787/seriousmanclappingbn8.gif
You said it all man:oldrazz:

[BatSpider]

Two Face had the force of Batman push him straight over the edge. Batman had time to brace himself; his fall was from a shorter height with less force, and he hit wooden planks which slightly broke his fall. Plus, he was in body armour!

I don't recall Maroni's fall being as high up, and we could actively see that he survived the fall because he was conscious and actually breathing and talking!!!

How would Gordon get Two Face into Arkham and keep it a secret? He'd need to transport him there (and I doubt he'd leave his family after what's just happened to go and do that); he'd need somebody to admit and care for Two Face while he's in Arkham. Gotham is corrupted; somebody would easily sell the story that Harvey Dent is still alive and residing in the local asylum.

And about Batman being responsible for Two Face's death... it wasn't intentional. He just tried to stop him from flipping the coin that would decide whether or not he'd shoot Gordon, but it sent them over the edge.
Well put :yay:

[The Guard]

He's probably dead. But Batman didn't MEAN to kill him...

:)

[GUNSLINGER]

I personally see Two-Face, if he does come back, finishing what he started as DA, destroying the mob. As this happens, other freaks start filling the void. Penguin and the Ventriloquist. These wouldn't need to be major characters, just enough to show what Gotham is becoming and that Batman is no longer just the hero they deserve, but the hero they NEED.

MY POINT EXACTLY!!!

[batmaluco]

I had voted for "Ambiguous (writers could swing either way): I think he's still alive".

Today, after having watched the movie for the second time, I would go with "Ambiguous (writers could swing either way): but he's probably dead".

[GUNSLINGER]

I also believe that yes, the death of Harvey brings about the deviousness of the Joker's plans. By accidentally killing Two-Face Batman has inadvertently full filled the Joker's prediction that "Tonight you will break your one rule!" This show's the cleverness of the Joker's plan and how he had everything planned out from the start. It is more climatic that Two-face dies.

Yet the possibility is there for him to live, which is my hopeful thinking.

[TTRuth021]

Dont know if this has been brought up but...
<http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/article/eckhart%20agrees%20to%20third%20batman%20film_1075 154>

[TTRuth021]

Dont know if this has been brought up but...
http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/article/eckhart%20agrees%20to%20third%20batman%20film_1075 154

[rnewbz]

hmmm, i say further proof that he's not dead.

[Finlandman]

Argh! Gordon or Batman should have checked his pulse. But they acted like they were 100% sure that he was dead/alive. Also, script isn't = movie.

[bcgvh]

Wouldn't Two Face being alive, specifically for the 3rd movie, somewhat tarnish the end of TDK?

No because Harvey Dent as Gotham knew him died with Rachel and he became Two Face, especially after a little Joker inspiration. Batman and Gordon don't want Gotham to know what Harvey became and they're trying to cover it up to "keep the hope alive". Even though Gordon and Batman know the Joker really "won" by driving Harvey over the edge, they want to keep it secret so that Gotham nevers finds out. Kind of like after the hospital explosion, when Gordon tells the Mayor they don't know where Dent is, the Mayor responds with "How long can we keep this secret". I think he's thrown into Arkham or something and his transformation into Two Face is covered up to protect what Harvey stood for as a "good guy".

[Spider-Fan]

Dont know if this has been brought up but...
http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/article/eckhart%20agrees%20to%20third%20batman%20film_1075 154

That article clearly says "would", not "will"

All this is saying is Eckhart would do another movie. Even if he were in a third, there is nothing that says it would be as Two-Face. Cliff Robertson and Willem Dafoe both die in SM1, but appear in all 3 Spidey films.

Until Nolan confirms Two-Face for a third film, he is dead to me.

[TTRuth021]

That article clearly says "would", not "will"

All this is saying is Eckhart would do another movie. Even if he were in a third, there is nothing that says it would be as Two-Face. Cliff Robertson and Willem Dafoe both die in SM1, but appear in all 3 Spidey films.

Until Nolan confirms Two-Face for a third film, he is dead to me.

True, but the movie itself isn't set in stone. This article just tells me Eckhart himself doesn't rule out his character as a complete goner. Plus if he were in the film I dont see Nolan using him as a flashback...but we'll have to see.

Random point.. probably been said before, but it seems Nolan has a trend of killing one villain and leaving one alive, if Two-Face is dead.
Ex. Scarecrow lives...Ras dies
Joker lives...Two-Face dies

[Spider-Fan]

Eckhart was asked if he'd come back. He said yes. No one asked him if he thinks he'd be asked back or if Two-Face died. Thus, you can't tell me he thinks he is alive based on him saying he would come back if asked.

[TTRuth021]

Hey, if Eckhart says he would like to come back for the third film, its obivious he saying Two Face is definitely alive and ready for another go around,lol. But really thats what I took from the article, I see your point though I would say he is dead leaving it with this film as it is.

[chaseter]

I can't believe people are still arguing this. In The Dark Knight...Two Face died. If they do a 3rd, Two Face is dead until they decide to bring him back if they do...but he is dead.

[Spider-Fan]

Wanting to be back for a third movie is not the same thing as saying my character lived. Those are two entirely different questions. His experience on the set may have been so great, he wouldn't hesitate to come back. But, if he thinks the character is dead, he won't bank on it. He wasn't asked if he thought his chances at doing another film were good. He was asked if he'd come back. We have no idea how he would answer that second question, cause no one asked it.

I still think the script is a good indicator for his returning prospects.

[chaseter]

Two Face had the force of Batman push him straight over the edge. Batman had time to brace himself; his fall was from a shorter height with less force, and he hit wooden planks which slightly broke his fall. Plus, he was in body armour!

I don't recall Maroni's fall being as high up, and we could actively see that he survived the fall because he was conscious and actually breathing and talking!!!

How would Gordon get Two Face into Arkham and keep it a secret? He'd need to transport him there (and I doubt he'd leave his family after what's just happened to go and do that); he'd need somebody to admit and care for Two Face while he's in Arkham. Gotham is corrupted; somebody would easily sell the story that Harvey Dent is still alive and residing in the local asylum.

And about Batman being responsible for Two Face's death... it wasn't intentional. He just tried to stop him from flipping the coin that would decide whether or not he'd shoot Gordon, but it sent them over the edge.
Keep this on every page. You have summed up and more every point in this thread that others seem to keep skipping over in their effort to type TWO FACE LIVESSSSSSS HAXZORZ:o

Oh and Doc Ock and Venom are still alive:whatever:

[Spider-Fan]

Keep this on every page. You have summed up and more every point in this thread that others seem to keep skipping over in their effort to type TWO FACE LIVESSSSSSS HAXZORZ:o

Oh and Doc Ock and Venom are still alive:whatever:

Not to mention Maroni landed on his feet. At the angle Dent was going over, he would have landed on his back at best, and on his head/shoulder area at worst. Script says he had a broken neck, thus I'd say he landed on the latter.

I don't care if Maroni lived on his fall, if you fall from that height on your head, you die. Period.

[The Squirrel]

I figured this. If the same fall didn't kill Batman, it didn't kill Harvey. And yes, I'm aware Batman had the suit on, but I don't how much that suit protects someone landing flat on your back. I think they put him away without the public knowing.

I think Batman fell on top of Harvey and then rolled off. And Harvey could have snapped his neck or broken his spine...

He is dead.

[Spidro Man]

I'm probably looking too much into this. But when Two Face flipped his coin right when Batman tackled him, it landed GOOD SIDE up. Now I know he was referencing Gordon's fate, but maybe that was a hint? Who knows, just figured it was something to mention that probably has nothing to do with anything but Gordon.

[HarleenQuinzel]

I believe he is dead. Didn't Gordon read the eulogy for Dent? Plus, the character served his purpose, targeting those responsible for Rachel. I don't want him brought back just for the sake of bringing him back and then turn into some cliched villain. There is a great sense of tragedy to the character and I feel that would be lost if he is brought back. He was handled perfectly, IMO. Just leave it be.

Yeah, Gordon did real the eulogy for Dent but that doesn't mean Two Face is dead. If he is, then he is and there's nothing else that can probably be done with the character, but we won't know for sure until the third. (I'm assuming there will be one.) I actually felt sorry for the guy.

[danb26]

-- if there is a 3rd film of course. i couldnt help get the feeling that the 2nd film seemed to have ended in such finality because Nolan is pissed off at WB and is his way of saying "I quit."

I don't understand why you say it ended in 'such finality'?

Don't agree with that! It's a continuing story regardless of ending, BB ended with the card but it wasn't necessarily going to continue, this ended the same.

AS a good old story outside of the story context, very openly!

[Finlandman]

I can't believe people are still arguing this. In The Dark Knight...Two Face died. If they do a 3rd, Two Face is dead until they decide to bring him back if they do...but he is dead.

What makes you so sure that he died? They never confirmed it.

[KILLING JOKER]

But you are not Joe Blow America. You're a comic geek. The average person by now expects new Batman villains each film, and would rather see that.

Also, I'd rather see other villains than Joker and Two-Face. They were greatin the movie, but I don't want the next movie to be a repeat of this one essentially. New them. New plot. New villains.

Plus, him dying is thematically stronger.

I'm a comic geek? Oh really? And you know this because I'm on this board with you. Hmmmm...Well, anyways the point of Nolan and this franchise has been to not DO what every other Batman movie has done and as far as what the general public is expecting.....who the hell cares? TDK was made for true BAtman fans and yes, comic geeks too.

And don't talk to me about WB wanting to make money cause, as I'm sure you've heard TDK is doing pretty good.

The fact is that bringing Two-face back for a third would be a risk but it also brings back a character that the audience is familiar with therefore bringing depth and a deeper story.

Now I don't know if Two-face is alive or dead but the point I'm making is this. It would be a smarter move on the part of Nolan and the writers to bring back Two-face who is a fascinating and richly developed character than to try and follow TDK with a character like Riddler or Catwoman. Those characters simply cannot contain the power of the Two-face story or the Joker. They are destined to fail and let's face it. Both characters are a little silly no matter how you slice it. I mean after the power and drama of TDK we're supposed to be alarmed by a woman in a catsuit or a guy in green that writes riddles? I'm certain that Nolan won't touch those characters.

[KILLING JOKER]

But you are not Joe Blow America. You're a comic geek. The average person by now expects new Batman villains each film, and would rather see that.

Also, I'd rather see other villains than Joker and Two-Face. They were greatin the movie, but I don't want the next movie to be a repeat of this one essentially. New them. New plot. New villains.

Plus, him dying is thematically stronger.

I'm a comic geek? Oh really? And you know this because I'm on this board with you. Hmmmm...Well, anyways the point of Nolan and this franchise has been to not DO what every other Batman movie has done and as far as what the general public is expecting.....who the hell cares? TDK was made for true BAtman fans and yes, comic geeks too.

And don't talk to me about WB wanting to make money cause, as I'm sure you've heard TDK is doing pretty good.

The fact is that bringing Two-face back for a third would be a risk but it also brings back a character that the audience is familiar with therefore bringing depth and a deeper story.

Now I don't know if Two-face is alive or dead but the point I'm making is this. It would be a smarter move on the part of Nolan and the writers to bring back Two-face who is a fascinating and richly developed character than to try and follow TDK with a character like Riddler or Catwoman. Those characters simply cannot contain the power of the Two-face story or the Joker. They are destined to fail and let's face it. Both characters are a little silly no matter how you slice it. I mean after the power and drama of TDK we're supposed to be alarmed by a woman in a catsuit or a guy in green that writes riddles? I'm certain that Nolan won't touch those characters.

[KILLING JOKER]

Sorry double post

[Karem-Knight]

I think it would be ideal to bring Two-Face back, as the main villain for the third movie. Gathering; Scarecrow, Riddler, the inmates of Arkham, Riddler (?), Catwoman (?) and even maybe the Joker (I would rather Joker stay in Arkham in the next movie. And stay in the shadows with archive voice clips of Ledger.)

The only way they can even HOPE of matching TDK, would be with an explosive finale about redemption. Now, it might not be as good as The Dark Knight, but may just be as good or possibly better then Begins. If Nolan plays his cards right, seeing a more twisted and demented Two-Face as the third movie progresses towards a massive fight against the Mob, with Batman caught in the middle.

[Karem-Knight]

I think it would be ideal to bring Two-Face back, as the main villain for the third movie. Gathering; Scarecrow, Riddler, the inmates of Arkham, Riddler (?), Catwoman (?) and even maybe the Joker (I would rather Joker stay in Arkham in the next movie. And stay in the shadows with archive voice clips of Ledger.)

The only way they can even HOPE of matching TDK, would be with an explosive finale about redemption. Now, it might not be as good as The Dark Knight, but may just be as good or possibly better then Begins. If Nolan plays his cards right, seeing a more twisted and demented Two-Face as the third movie progresses towards a massive fight against the Mob, with Batman caught in the middle.

[Karem-Knight]

I think it would be ideal to bring Two-Face back, as the main villain for the third movie. Gathering; Scarecrow, Riddler, the inmates of Arkham, Riddler (?), Catwoman (?) and even maybe the Joker (I would rather Joker stay in Arkham in the next movie. And stay in the shadows with archive voice clips of Ledger.)

The only way they can even HOPE of matching TDK, would be with an explosive finale about redemption. Now, it might not be as good as The Dark Knight, but may just be as good or possibly better then Begins. If Nolan plays his cards right, seeing a more twisted and demented Two-Face as the third movie progresses towards a massive fight against the Mob, with Batman caught in the middle.

[Karem-Knight]

Sorry- Triple post.

[COMPO]

to be honest I'd love for Black Mask to come a sort of do a War Games film with him recruiting loads of villians and gangs to take over Gotham... bring the copycat batmen back and have a sort of Dark Knight Returns ending with Batman rallying them up to round up the villains just as Gotham is losing ho[pe with the current gang war.

I mean, a gang war is when Batman will be truly needed.

[summersgod]

If Nolan were to make another film I ghink he'd b dead if someone else did it I think he'd still be alive

[Spider-Fan]

I'm a comic geek? Oh really? And you know this because I'm on this board with you. Hmmmm...Well, anyways the point of Nolan and this franchise has been to not DO what every other Batman movie has done and as far as what the general public is expecting.....who the hell cares? TDK was made for true BAtman fans and yes, comic geeks too.

And don't talk to me about WB wanting to make money cause, as I'm sure you've heard TDK is doing pretty good.

The fact is that bringing Two-face back for a third would be a risk but it also brings back a character that the audience is familiar with therefore bringing depth and a deeper story.

Now I don't know if Two-face is alive or dead but the point I'm making is this. It would be a smarter move on the part of Nolan and the writers to bring back Two-face who is a fascinating and richly developed character than to try and follow TDK with a character like Riddler or Catwoman. Those characters simply cannot contain the power of the Two-face story or the Joker. They are destined to fail and let's face it. Both characters are a little silly no matter how you slice it. I mean after the power and drama of TDK we're supposed to be alarmed by a woman in a catsuit or a guy in green that writes riddles? I'm certain that Nolan won't touch those characters.

Were Dent and the Joker familiar to audiences prior to TDK (in the context of Nolan's universe...not Burton Schumacher movies included)? Answer, no. They were developed in movie to play out a specific story, and they played it out to perfection. Scarecrow was only in it as a cameo villain for Batman to defeat.

We don't need villains we've seen for a 3rd film. New theme. New story. New villains. Nolan did it for TDK, so why should he rehash a villain whom's best aspect of his story as already been covered. I see no reason BB3 would benefit from Dent's return. If anything, TDK benefits more from his death.

[regwec]

I don't think anyone has decided whether he is dead or alive, but I think he could certainly be either, and I hope he is the latter.

I think the glaring, rictus eye on the scarred side of the face was a visual cue to suggest the appearance of death where it need not be the case, like a patient reptile.

Gordon's tribute to Dent does not presuppose the surrender of his cadaver and its burial or cremation.

A single line in a sequel about the disappearance of the body would let us know that he could still be around.

His surprise re-introduction could be a brilliant psychological weapon against Batman when used by a cerebral enemy such as Ra's al Ghul or Hush.

[Spider-Fan]

Well Ra's is dead, so that would leave Hush for your scenario.

Though I think the next movie will have nothing to do with Two-Face personally. I just don't see a reason Nolan would bring him back.

[regwec]

Ra's is dead? Presumably we can say that with the same surety with which we can all assume that Dent is dead? Oh, wait.

[Spider-Fan]

I think Dent is dead, so to me, they are sitting at a table together in the afterlife cursing Batman. I think both are clearly dead and won't be used again. Nolan has no reasons to bring either back.

[regwec]

But we can't be sure of that, and Nolan won't be directing Batman films forever, I think he has quite deliberately left a "get out clause" for either character.

[Infinity9999x]

But we can't be sure of that, and Nolan won't be directing Batman films forever, I think he has quite deliberately left a "get out clause" for either character.


That was my feelings as well. I was of the mind that they're probably dead, but it wasn't made clear enough for a writer to not write them back into another Bat story if they wanted to. It's not like in B89 where Joker fell a hight that you knew there was no way a man could survive it, with a gargoyle attached to his leg, and then see his corpse embedded into the concrete.

[chaseter]

I'm probably looking too much into this. But when Two Face flipped his coin right when Batman tackled him, it landed GOOD SIDE up. Now I know he was referencing Gordon's fate, but maybe that was a hint? Who knows, just figured it was something to mention that probably has nothing to do with anything but Gordon.
The coin flip was not for Dent, it was for Gordon's son...it showed he would have lived.

What makes you so sure that he died? They never confirmed it.
The shooting script and common sense.

[DACrowe]

I saw the movie a second time today and I have to say I hope Two-Face is dead. Just because the ending was so much more powerful on the first viewing when Two-Face was dead to me. On the second viewing I watched it like it was ambiguious and it just doesn't have the emotional punch or power.

[Spider-Fan]

This Batman franchise probably has 4 movies tops before they do a reboot at some point. I don't see this version of Bats going past 4 films.

In the next two films, I see no reason to use these characters again. We have enough Batman villains to fill 2 films. My campaign slogan for BB3 is new story, new theme, new villains. New movie!

I see no reason for Ra's or Two-Face to return in this franchise. None. Perhaps when they reboot it, they will return. But in the Nolan-verse, they are dead until confirmed otherwise by Nolan himself.

[chaseter]

Two Face had the force of Batman push him straight over the edge. Batman had time to brace himself; his fall was from a shorter height with less force, and he hit wooden planks which slightly broke his fall. Plus, he was in body armour!

I don't recall Maroni's fall being as high up, and we could actively see that he survived the fall because he was conscious and actually breathing and talking!!!

How would Gordon get Two Face into Arkham and keep it a secret? He'd need to transport him there (and I doubt he'd leave his family after what's just happened to go and do that); he'd need somebody to admit and care for Two Face while he's in Arkham. Gotham is corrupted; somebody would easily sell the story that Harvey Dent is still alive and residing in the local asylum.

And about Batman being responsible for Two Face's death... it wasn't intentional. He just tried to stop him from flipping the coin that would decide whether or not he'd shoot Gordon, but it sent them over the edge.

Keeping this on every page...

[LostGuy]

Well, if Two-Face is alive he at least had several injuries when hitting the ground. So, I don't see him just standing up and running away so we can say "he's at large". If he survived, he was probably taken to a hospital and then to Arkham, but it would be difficult to keep it a secret. On second thought, it doesn't have to be a secret. There could be rumors of Dent being in Arkham, but most people would believe Gordon's word that Dent is dead.

[Spider-Fan]

Keeping this on every page...

Keep doing it :up:

[LostGuy]

The coin flip was not for Dent, it was for Gordon's son...it showed he would have lived.


Actually, Dent would have caught the coin while it was still in the air, so we cannot know for sure if Gordon's son would have lived or died. I guess that when we see the good side up, it just means that Jimmy lived, but because Batman caught him (as it is shown a second later) and not because Two-Face would not have killed him.

[chaseter]

Keep doing it :up:
You just made a new page:cmad:

http://forums.superherohype.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=15367790#post15367790)
Two Face had the force of Batman push him straight over the edge. Batman had time to brace himself; his fall was from a shorter height with less force, and he hit wooden planks which slightly broke his fall. Plus, he was in body armour!

I don't recall Maroni's fall being as high up, and we could actively see that he survived the fall because he was conscious and actually breathing and talking!!!

How would Gordon get Two Face into Arkham and keep it a secret? He'd need to transport him there (and I doubt he'd leave his family after what's just happened to go and do that); he'd need somebody to admit and care for Two Face while he's in Arkham. Gotham is corrupted; somebody would easily sell the story that Harvey Dent is still alive and residing in the local asylum.

And about Batman being responsible for Two Face's death... it wasn't intentional. He just tried to stop him from flipping the coin that would decide whether or not he'd shoot Gordon, but it sent them over the edge.

[chaseter]

Actually, Dent would have caught the coin while it was still in the air, so we cannot know for sure if Gordon's son would have lived or died. I guess that when we see the good side up, it just means that Jimmy lived, but because Batman caught him (as it is shown a second later) and not because Two-Face would not have killed him.
Then why show the coin:huh: It is called symbolism.

[Spider-Fan]

You just made a new page:cmad:

[/I]

At least I gave you another excuse to repost it :cwink:

[Keyser Soze]

I think Harvey Dent's journey was so powerful, so dramatic, just beautifully executed. What it really reminded me of, is the arcs of the great Shakespearian tragic heroes: Hamlet, Macbeth, Othello. Of course, what do all these guys have in common? They die at the end.

If you're viewing this strictly in franchise terms, already looking forward to part three - which all of us are tempted to do from time to time, I'm sure - then as comic fans many of us would love to see more Two-Face action. But if you view "The Dark Knight" as a standalone piece of cinema - as Nolan has said he does - then Harvey Dent dying, as tragic as it is, really is the perfect conclusion, thematically speaking.

[regwec]

I agree with that, but I like the preservation of doubt. Even a "Jason Todd" moment, where someone appeared to be the (presumably) deceased character, only to be exposed as a fraud, could be quite powerful.

[Keyser Soze]

I agree with that, but I like the preservation of doubt. Even a "Jason Todd" moment, where someone appeared to be the (presumably) deceased character, only to be exposed as a fraud, could be quite powerful.

I absolutely agree that there is ambiguity in the fate of Two-Face, much like with Ra's al Ghul. Even if, for the purposes of the story, they are dead, and they don't appear in future films... they can feasibly go on living if you choose them to do so. Nolan has talked about how he likes his audience to continue the story of his movies in their heads after they leave the cinema, after all...

[LostGuy]

Then why show the coin:huh: It is called symbolism.

Yes, it is called symbolism, and IMHO that symbolism shows that Batman intervened, so Jimmy lived. Two-Face never had the chance to catch the coin, so we don't know what Jimmy's fate would be. But Batman jumped in, and when he did so, things ended up fine for Gordon's son. Hence the good side up.

But that is my interpretation of what I saw. I am not here to pose as the guardian of the one and only truth.

[Quoink]

Personally I don't understand why people think he survived.
My reasons for him being dead are:


1) Why the hell would Gordon or Batman leave a severely injured man (and he surely would be after such a fall) lying on the ground and keep having a "nice chat" instead of calling the ambulance right away?!

2) Why don't they even check if he is dead? They must be sure about that!

3) There is not one indication that Harvey is alive. He doesn't breathe either. Batman turns his head to the other side, I think you wouldn't neccessarily do that if you knew someone just fell down several floors, broke all kinds of bones but probably still was alive. So hey, come on, let's turn his head and brake his spine probably too, who cares? *lol*

4) Harvey said himself in the last scene: "You think I wanna escape from this? There is no escape from this!"


As much as I would have loved to see him in a third movie again, I am completely sure he is dead. Anything else just wouldn't make sense for me, plus, it gives the storyline of the movie a logical and powerful ending.

[Vile]

4) Harvey said himself in the last scene: "You think I wanna escape from this? There is no escape from this!"



Bingo. The quote from Harvey sums up Nolan's version of Two-Face - he's not going to create a mob family (freak run or not) or commit crimes that have to do with the number 2.

He wanted revenge for his disfigurement AND Rachel...and guess what, folks! He got 99% of that revenge what with Maroni, and the crooked cops.

Bringing him back would be silly and stupid, not to mention cheapen his character in The Dark Knight - what are we gonna do? Watch him go after Gordon's family again? Maybe he'll blame the auto company that made the car that Ramirez picked Rachel up in? Gimme a break.

He's dead. It's not ambiguous IN the least unless YOU want it to be...and you certainly can see it that way but that doesnt change the fact that a corpse IS a corpse and he....is....DEAD. Can the writers bring him back? Of course. They can do whatever they want! But that doesnt mean that Harvey is NOT dead.

[Finlandman]

In the end, I'd like to know that Harvey is in Arkham secretly, but I don't wan't to see him in third one, especially if main antagonist is Riddler.

[Superman4ever]

Well based on the script Harvey/Two-face is dead.

Dent lies at the bottom of the hole, his neck broken. Dead.

[Superman4ever]

I think Harvey Dent's journey was so powerful, so dramatic, just beautifully executed. What it really reminded me of, is the arcs of the great Shakespearian tragic heroes: Hamlet, Macbeth, Othello. Of course, what do all these guys have in common? They die at the end.

If you're viewing this strictly in franchise terms, already looking forward to part three - which all of us are tempted to do from time to time, I'm sure - then as comic fans many of us would love to see more Two-Face action. But if you view "The Dark Knight" as a standalone piece of cinema - as Nolan has said he does - then Harvey Dent dying, as tragic as it is, really is the perfect conclusion, thematically speaking.

Wonderful post.

[DACrowe]

I was thinking those who say that Batman shouldn't have tackled Harvey as the coin came up on the good side. Well,

1) We don't know if it would have landed like that in Harvey's hand or if he'd flip it over afterwards and

2) Two-Face would've probably just done the coin flip again for his daughter, then his wife and then Jim until he gets to kill one of them by the odds of it. Remember he didn't get Maroni so he flipped again for his driver's life and when it came up bad he still got Maroni. He would have done the same thing to Jim's entire family, I bet.

[SuperZer0]

How can Dent survive a crazy car crash without buckling his seatbelt, and not survive a fall from a few feet?

Sigh, movies don't make sense sometimes.

[BATS N' HORNETS]

i dunno the answer, it's ambiguous, but if he was alive i'm pretty sure Gordon & Batman could tell...

if alive, they probably wouldn't have a funeral for him

[chaseter]

Thank God more reasonable people are coming in here and looking beyond wanting Two Face in the next film.

[Vile]

How can Dent survive a crazy car crash without buckling his seatbelt, and not survive a fall from a few feet?

Sigh, movies don't make sense sometimes.


...Dent put his seatbelt on before he shot the driver.

You DID watch the movie, right?

[regwec]

Bringing him back would be silly and stupid, not to mention cheapen his character in The Dark Knight - what are we gonna do? Watch him go after Gordon's family again? Maybe he'll blame the auto company that made the car that Ramirez picked Rachel up in? Gimme a break.
You don't have to worry about your lack of imagination; that's what Jonathan Nolan is paid to have for you.

[Jack O Lantern]

He doesn't have to be come back if he is alive. My concern about his apparent death is that I feel that it cheapens the Batman/Joker story about how Batman won't cross that line, but then he does kill Dent by diving at him.

[Keyser Soze]

He doesn't have to be come back if he is alive. My concern about his apparent death is that I feel that it cheapens the Batman/Joker story about how Batman won't cross that line, but then he does kill Dent by diving at him.

Batman doesn't kill Harvey Dent. He merely fails to save him.

Batman, Two-Face and Gordon's son all go tumbling over the edge. Batman saves Gordon's son, but this leaves him unable to stop Dent from falling.

[The Joker]

Batman doesn't kill Harvey Dent. He merely fails to save him.

Batman, Two-Face and Gordon's son all go tumbling over the edge. Batman saves Gordon's son, but this leaves him unable to stop Dent from falling.

I'm curious to know how Batman expected to save both Dent and Gordon's son by diving into both of them and knocking them over the edge. I mean he couldn't even stop himself from falling.

[LostGuy]

1) We don't know if it would have landed like that in Harvey's hand or if he'd flip it over afterwards and

Thank you. I said that a few posts above.

I'm curious to know how Batman expected to save both Dent and Gordon's son by diving into both of them and knocking them over the edge. I mean he couldn't even stop himself from falling.

I don't think he was expecting anything but to save Gordon's son. Two-Face shots Batman. We don't see if he is pretending to be hurt, if he is really hurt, but he is temporarily out of action. Two-Face throws the coin, it flips in the air and Batman, recovering from the shot, has no time to think. He just jumps from where he is to knock Two-Face down. If you ask me, I don't even think he was considering the edge; he was just thinking that if Two-Face caught the coin and the bad side was up, the guy would just pull the trigger.

[FoJacob]

I'm really open to either interpretation of Dent's fate and I'm not arguing for one way or the other. But seeing the movie again yesterday I did notice something interesting in Gordon's conversation with Batman at the end. He says something to the effect of "everything we've done for this city dies with Harvey's reputation." I thought it was interesting that he didn't just say "dies with Harvey".

Probably nothing, but very cleverly done to leave just that edge of ambiguity.

I also listened to "Creative Screenwriting"'s interview with Jonah Nolan and I didn't get anything from that to conclusively prove that Harvey is really stone cold dead.

I wonder if perhaps if he did return in the third film (not saying he will or should, just if) they could continue the theme of exploring Batman's steadfast "no-kill" rule by basically showing that had he just out-and-out killed Harvey, he could have saved a lot of lives and pain that Harvey causes now that he's made the full transition over to crime. Of course, they could have explored that theme with the Joker had he been able to return, but Harvey could wreak enough havoc himself to have audiences questioning whether or not Batman's rule is really all that noble in the long run.

[Saint]

A lot of people have suggested Harvey being in Arkham, but the logistics of that just don't work. More likely is that Batman/Gordon would have him holed up in an Asylum in another city (more likely: another country) under a false identity, or as a John Doe. Similar to what Batman did to Ra's Al Ghul recently (except Ra's was in Arkham, since nobody there would ever recognize him, anyway).

[Seditionary]

Isn't the whole friggin idea of this two face character, a man that relies on a coin to make decisions based on chance or fate to sort out what is fair or right and not what is legal, is exactly where they could go with a third movie?

Batman is now public enemy number one, hes doing the right thing but hes breaking the law. Maybe catwoman is in it, and shes breaking the law but she isn't causing any harm besides stealing expensive ****. Sounds like the line between right and wrong is getting blurry.

There is plenty to use two face for...his arch isn't over. Just because he shot batman, doesn't mean he "lost it all" or that he paid the consequences he was responsible for. They are not even. And he spoiled two faces judgement on gordons son. Ramirez is alive, who also broke the law and accepted money for her mothers hospital fees. Hes got alot of unfinished business.

The joker also "dragged him down" to his and batman's level. Like a freak, or a superhero/supervillain, hero, anti-hero.

And batman's ****en parents died and he didnt get "Revenge" and hes on this life long quest...Maybe two face will never really know whos responsible and could go on a quest of his own.

Heads up.

[M.O.Steel]

funny story, as i was walking out of the theater, i was telling my friends how the only thing i didn't like was dent dying, and the first thing they said was, dent died?

it is open to interpretation, and it is legit to go both ways. first time i watched it, he obviously died, but when i watched it again, it doesn't have to be. all the cops were after batman, so gordon had harvey to himself. the fake death was to show gotham that he "died" a hero...even though he actually ends up living long enough to become the villain.

[M.O.Steel]

for those who thinkg harvey can't be a good villain...i think there is an amazing theme of duality that they can reflect with batman...as in, who is the real you. especially since two-face was a friend/good guy that ends up becoming evil, and how his revenge story against batman and gordon isn't complete, i'm sure they ample amount of story to tell with him.

[Finlandman]

Now that I have thinked about it, I really don't want to see him return. Nolan and others managed to do so much with him in TDK, that making his return more interesting than his original vengeance in TDK would be very hard. But I'm not ready to say that he is dead.

[KILLING JOKER]

for those who thinkg harvey can't be a good villain...i think there is an amazing theme of duality that they can reflect with batman...as in, who is the real you. especially since two-face was a friend/good guy that ends up becoming evil, and how his revenge story against batman and gordon isn't complete, i'm sure they ample amount of story to tell with him.

Exactly, there's so much dramatic potential there. More than they can get from a new villan. I mean sure add a new villan in there but keep the drama of what they started in TDK going.

[ronny]

Here's the thing, if Gordon simply locked Two-Face away what would happen? I mean, I think Harvey became pretty self pitying, I doubt he would ever really calm down.

[hemparea51]

Saw this today on IMBD. It's from WENN so I don't know how reliable it is. If it has already been posted my bad.

Eckhart Agrees To Third Batman Film

23 July 2008 9:10 AM, PDT | From wenn.com (http://www.wenn.com/) | See recent WENN news (http://www.imdb.com/news/ns0000002/)
Aaron Eckhart (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001173/) would reprise his role from The Dark Knight (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468569/) - because working with Christian Bale (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000288/) is "phenomenal".
Eckhart, who plays District Attorney Harvey Dent in the sequel, confesses he "absolutely" would star in a third Batman film.
He tells WENN, "To work with Christian (Bale) all over again, and the cast, would be phenomenal. I think this movie is a movie of a lifetime."

I know it's not a confirmation but the fact he's talking about it may be something

[J-Sentius]

To me, Two Face was what he was, only because of The Joker..

Without him, it's Meh..

A third part for this franchise, feels very 50/50 to me..normally I like sequels no matter what, but this time it's different for some weird reason...

[bell110]

It's still blows my mind how many people got the interpretation that Gordon is hiding Dent from the public. I don't get how anybody thinks that's a realistic option.

[returntovoid]

I think that Commissioner Gordon made it seem that he's dead because he didn't want the people of Gotham to know what he has transformed into but I won't be sure whether Two-Face is dead or alive, until the third film comes out (that is if there's is a third film).

[hegele]

If anyone knows how to keep the public thinking someone is dead, its Gordon.

[yeahhtrue]

My opinion is this..the writers have no idea what direction they plan to go in with the 3rd film, if they even decide to go through with one. They left Joker's fate up to speculation, just as they did with Two Face. Obviously, everybody assumes that Joker is put into Arkham, but who knows. He's the Joker..anything can happen between the time he is left hanging there and the time he actually makes it to Arkham. They wanted to have his fate completely open so that they have plenty of options for the next film. They did the same with Two Face. He looked pretty dead, but there's still all this speculation about sneaking him into Arkham, getting him treatment, etc. They just wanted to keep their options open while still tying up loose ends. If Joker or Two Face never make another appearance, we'll know why. But at the same time, its believable if they do show up again. That's just my take.

[knifeedgedave]

I think the third film will open as TDK ended- at the warehouse, with Batman running to his Batpod but seeing Dent rise up and Gordon calling an ambulence in.

[knifeedgedave]

I think the third film will open as TDK ended- at the warehouse, with Batman running to his Batpod but focusing in as we see Dent rise up and Gordon calling an ambulence in.

[Ratatat]

It's still blows my mind how many people got the interpretation that Gordon is hiding Dent from the public. I don't get how anybody thinks that's a realistic option.

Maybe because they are? How does that blow someone's mind? It's not far-fetched.

[Seditionary]

I keep thinking about the conversation gordon had with the mayor...The last conversation he had with anyone about harvey dent, except of course with Batman at the end.

The mayor asks him if he got dent out of the hospital and gordon says that hes missing. the mayor than asks "How long can you keep this secret" or something along those lines...and the camera is just at gordon staring at him until the scene ends.

[regwec]

A lot of people have suggested Harvey being in Arkham, but the logistics of that just don't work. More likely is that Batman/Gordon would have him holed up in an Asylum in another city (more likely: another country) under a false identity, or as a John Doe. Similar to what Batman did to Ra's Al Ghul recently (except Ra's was in Arkham, since nobody there would ever recognize him, anyway).
I can imagine Batman keeping Dent imprisoned in a small but lavishly furnished suite built within the confines of the Batcave. It would raise certain questions about Bruce's own psychology, but would tally with his control/domination impulses.

[regwec]

My opinion is this..the writers have no idea what direction they plan to go in with the 3rd film, if they even decide to go through with one
I think you're absolutely right about that.

Could it even be a clause in the Nolan bros. contracts that they cannot kill off any trade marked character for definate?

[combusticator]

I think you're absolutely right about that.

Could it even be a clause in the Nolan bros. contracts that they cannot kill off any trade marked character for definate?

That is an interesting thought, in that they really don't want to use him again, so they left it ambiguous but wont' use him again

[bell110]

Maybe because they are? How does that blow someone's mind? It's not far-fetched.

That's what blows my mind. Why do people think they are. They don't mention anything like that. I can understand why people think he's dead, but it seems like everybody that think he's alive think they're hiding him and faking his death. :huh: The cover up was only for his crimes, not his death.

And it is far-fetched to think that they're going to place him in Arkham and creating a cover up so nobody knows. Gordon's a good guy, remember.

[Spider-Fan]

That's what blows my mind. Why do people think they are. They don't mention anything like that. I can understand why people think he's dead, but it seems like everybody that think he's alive think they're hiding him and faking his death. :huh: The cover up was only for his crimes, not his death.

And it is far-fetched to think that they're going to place him in Arkham and creating a cover up so nobody knows. Gordon's a good guy, remember.

STOP MAKING SENSE RIGHT NOW!!!

Also to reply to someone else's point: The idea of Nolan being unable to kill off trademarked characters I feel is just flat out wrong. Especially since he has done it twice already, but everyone just wants to deny it.

[Dark Knight]

The Nolans and Goyer can go a number of different ways people remember that.

Originally from what was stated last year of the year before by Goyer I believe, is that 2nd film would introduce Two Face and in the 3rd film Two Face would be the main baddie/mob boss. Rumors also were circulating that the plan was to use Joker as a Hannibal Lecter type character from Arkham. Now with the passing of Ledger,it may change things for the 3rd film or it may not. They may recast the Joker for Arkham scenes and may show Two Face alive but locked up secretly in Arkham and he breaks free and then he takes control of the mob? Or if they keep Two Face alive perhaps he can take the place of Joker for Arkham scenes? If they killed off Harvey, then who do they bring in as the main baddie? Seeing a more true interpretation of Selina Kyle/Catwoman would be nice to see (FINALLY) and it would bring some sexiness and sassiness to the franchise, but would she be considered a main baddie? She crosses both lines. A more true interpretation of Riddler may be a possibility also with someone like Law or Depp in the role. Regardless, and even though Nolan has said that Penguin may not fit into this world. I think he can fit. Having him be a seedy underground club owner/mob boss or british arms dealer would be nice way to include him. Bob Hoskins would be perfect and he would be able to keep the cockney british accent. He doesn't need to look freakish.....just give him the removable eyeglass and have him smoke the cigarrete with the elongated holder from time in a tux or black and white suit in some scenes and it would work. He can possibly replace Maroni. They can even show a KGBeast tyoe of body guard for Oswald.

What I really would like to see in the next film is a character who will physically be able to challenge and go toe to toe with Batman in fight scenes....even hurt him physically. I think they can do Bane in a realistic and plausible way also if Goyer and the Nolans really wanted to.

[Batman_316]

In the long halloween at the end they have dent rapped up in arkham so nobody can reconise him...maybe that's what they are gonna do in the third movie!

[returntovoid]

Originally Posted By Dark Knight
What I really would like to see in the next film is a character who will physically be able to challenge and go toe to toe with Batman in fight scenes....even hurt him physically. I think they can do Bane in a realistic and plausible way also if Goyer and the Nolan really wanted to.

They can introduce David Cain instead of Bane.

[CaptainClown]

The Nolans and Goyer can go a number of different ways people remember that.

Originally from what was stated last year of the year before by Goyer I believe, is that 2nd film would introduce Two Face and in the 3rd film Two Face would be the main baddie/mob boss. Rumors also were circulating that the plan was to use Joker as a Hannibal Lecter type character from Arkham. Now with the passing of Ledger,it may change things for the 3rd film or it may not. They may recast the Joker for Arkham scenes and may show Two Face alive but locked up secretly in Arkham and he breaks free and then he takes control of the mob? Or if they keep Two Face alive perhaps he can take the place of Joker for Arkham scenes? If they killed off Harvey, then who do they bring in as the main baddie? Seeing a more true interpretation of Selina Kyle/Catwoman would be nice to see (FINALLY) and it would bring some sexiness and sassiness to the franchise, but would she be considered a main baddie? She crosses both lines. A more true interpretation of Riddler may be a possibility also with someone like Law or Depp in the role. Regardless, and even though Nolan has said that Penguin may not fit into this world. I think he can fit. Having him be a seedy underground club owner/mob boss or british arms dealer would be nice way to include him. Bob Hoskins would be perfect and he would be able to keep the cockney british accent. He doesn't need to look freakish.....just give him the removable eyeglass and have him smoke the cigarrete with the elongated holder from time in a tux or black and white suit in some scenes and it would work. He can possibly replace Maroni. They can even show a KGBeast tyoe of body guard for Oswald.

What I really would like to see in the next film is a character who will physically be able to challenge and go toe to toe with Batman in fight scenes....even hurt him physically. I think they can do Bane in a realistic and plausible way also if Goyer and the Nolans really wanted to.
This just sounds like fan boy rumors.

[Spider-Fan]

The Nolans and Goyer can go a number of different ways people remember that.

Originally from what was stated last year of the year before by Goyer I believe, is that 2nd film would introduce Two Face and in the 3rd film Two Face would be the main baddie/mob boss. Rumors also were circulating that the plan was to use Joker as a Hannibal Lecter type character from Arkham. Now with the passing of Ledger,it may change things for the 3rd film or it may not. They may recast the Joker for Arkham scenes and may show Two Face alive but locked up secretly in Arkham and he breaks free and then he takes control of the mob? Or if they keep Two Face alive perhaps he can take the place of Joker for Arkham scenes? If they killed off Harvey, then who do they bring in as the main baddie? Seeing a more true interpretation of Selina Kyle/Catwoman would be nice to see (FINALLY) and it would bring some sexiness and sassiness to the franchise, but would she be considered a main baddie? She crosses both lines. A more true interpretation of Riddler may be a possibility also with someone like Law or Depp in the role. Regardless, and even though Nolan has said that Penguin may not fit into this world. I think he can fit. Having him be a seedy underground club owner/mob boss or british arms dealer would be nice way to include him. Bob Hoskins would be perfect and he would be able to keep the cockney british accent. He doesn't need to look freakish.....just give him the removable eyeglass and have him smoke the cigarrete with the elongated holder from time in a tux or black and white suit in some scenes and it would work. He can possibly replace Maroni. They can even show a KGBeast tyoe of body guard for Oswald.

What I really would like to see in the next film is a character who will physically be able to challenge and go toe to toe with Batman in fight scenes....even hurt him physically. I think they can do Bane in a realistic and plausible way also if Goyer and the Nolans really wanted to.

Two-Face was supposed to be created in the third film at Joker's trial, then he was to be done like Lecter. Now that he was included in the 2nd one, they basically combined the two stories into one. Two-Face was not set up in this movie, he was used. Now they are done, and we no longer need Two-Face. There is no reason to keep him alive, and we clearly see they intended to have him die going into filming. Since the scene otherwise remains unchanged from the script from what I saw, I say that same intent applies and he is dead. Notice how he showed no signs of life in that scene?

I think fanboys who want him alive are over analyzing the scene and really going far when they try to make up something bogus like they locked him up in Arkham.

["V"]

Just watched it a second time. Gordon speaks about Dent in the past tense at his 'funeral' - "needed", "deserved" - so that rules out a vigil as some have suggested. If Two Face really was alive why didn't they call in help for him? They just left him laying there!!!!!

And I'm not just wishing him dead for the sake of it - I love Two Face and I'm disappointed he was killed off - but some of these ideas like "Gordon's just keeping him in Arkham" are clutching at straws. We didn't see Rachel's body or her funeral, but she's dead. We actually see Two Face's body laying motionless AND we see his funeral : (

[Fitzwilliam]

I think the third film will open as TDK ended- at the warehouse, with Batman running to his Batpod but focusing in as we see Dent rise up and Gordon calling an ambulence in.


But the film ended a few days after the warehouse scene, with Dent's funeral. Why would they spell it out like that? They would be so so subtle about it, it's the Nolans for crying out loud! They didn't spell out that Gordon wasn't actually dead!

[I Am The Knight]

Maybe Two-Face is secretly living with the Gordons.

"Pass the salt."

[regwec]

STOP MAKING SENSE RIGHT NOW!!!

Also to reply to someone else's point: The idea of Nolan being unable to kill off trademarked characters I feel is just flat out wrong. Especially since he has done it twice already, but everyone just wants to deny it.
No he hasn't.

[up2nogood316]

i remember the same is he / isnt he dead when begins was out with Ras.... and he never resurfaced..

funny thing was tho i remember nolan saying something like its a mistake to kill people (villains wasent it?) in movies, or something like that.. basically he didnt like the idea of killing people so the viewer could believe these people could still be out there doing stuff.. just not focused on. then he kills quie a few people including 2face, loeb, rachel etc lol

[Quinzel]

i remember the same is he / isnt he dead when begins was out with Ras.... and he never resurfaced..

funny thing was tho i remember nolan saying something like its a mistake to kill people (villains wasent it?) in movies, or something like that.. basically he didnt like the idea of killing people so the viewer could believe these people could still be out there doing stuff.. just not focused on. then he kills quie a few people including 2face, loeb, rachel etc lol

That's what I was sayin!!! lol.

[slevinkelevra]

Maybe Two-Face is secretly living with the Gordons.

"Pass the salt."

this made me laugh. thank you. :up:

[slevinkelevra]

the script says dent died from the fall. i just came back from my 4th viewing and paid close attention to that scene, and as i came up with all 4 times, dent is dead.

the franchise is d*cked with the death of ledger. he was so good people dont want a recast, and dent is dead so no two face for another film.

as much as i would like to see a third installment, the options are slim.

and im sure nolan wants to get to work on some other projects. but, the ending of tdk left things open for anything to happen. batman is back as the guiding force.

[Manosman]

the script says dent died from the fall. i just came back from my 4th viewing and paid close attention to that scene, and as i came up with all 4 times, dent is dead.

the franchise is d*cked with the death of ledger. he was so good people dont want a recast, and dent is dead so no two face for another film.

as much as i would like to see a third installment, the options are slim.

and im sure nolan wants to get to work on some other projects. but, the ending of tdk left things open for anything to happen. batman is back as the guiding force.

I agree with the bold, and even if the script says he is dead that doesn't really mean squat, I mean it is nolan here, he may want us all to think harvey is dead, even if he himself says harvey is dead, i won't fully believe him until he doesn't show up in a third movie, if there is one. Nolan, always keeping us on our toes.

[M.O.Steel]

Just watched it a second time. Gordon speaks about Dent in the past tense at his 'funeral' - "needed", "deserved" - so that rules out a vigil as some have suggested. If Two Face really was alive why didn't they call in help for him? They just left him laying there!!!!!

And I'm not just wishing him dead for the sake of it - I love Two Face and I'm disappointed he was killed off - but some of these ideas like "Gordon's just keeping him in Arkham" are clutching at straws. We didn't see Rachel's body or her funeral, but she's dead. We actually see Two Face's body laying motionless AND we see his funeral : (

Rachel's face was in flames. so technically you did. While you have good points, i just wouldn't put it past the writers to do something like that. there have many many cases where dead people came back to life...elektra, that dude from PotC, and these were literally dead. even in the movie, batman survived the same fall (yeah i know there are other issues), and gordon was "dead" for a period of time.

But the film ended a few days after the warehouse scene, with Dent's funeral. Why would they spell it out like that? They would be so so subtle about it, it's the Nolans for crying out loud! They didn't spell out that Gordon wasn't actually dead!

well technically the film ended with the dent's death scene. the future speeche was cut into that, but the final scene was batman riding off from the scene of the death.

[Mangelo]

I've seen the movie three times myself. It's ambiguous. You could argue either side. With Ledger dying in real life, I think they might bring Two-Face back. Like I've suggested on these boards, and as knifeedgedave mentioned, they could open the third film back outside the warehouse. Gordon has given his Dark Knight speech to James Jr., when he turns around and finds that Harvey's body is gone. All the cops on the perimeter were chasing Batman at the time, so Dent could've slipped by. Gorden decides to go on with the memorial, realizing that the Harvey Dent he knew is "dead," and his alter-ego, Two-Face, has taken over. The public believed Harvey died in the hospital explosion anyway, so there's not a whole lot of cover-up to be done. And no, I'm not grasping at straws. The 70 years worth of comic books that this film is based upon have a long history of "killing off villains." In that light, why is it so difficult to grasp that the end of The Dark Knight could go either way? My answer: it's not, and it could.

[CaptainClown]

Maybe Two-Face is secretly living with the Gordons.

"Pass the salt."
Gordon - Barbra its great to see you and the kids.

Two-Face - I had a family once...
(awkward silence)

[Spider-Fan]

the script says dent died from the fall. i just came back from my 4th viewing and paid close attention to that scene, and as i came up with all 4 times, dent is dead.

the franchise is d*cked with the death of ledger. he was so good people dont want a recast, and dent is dead so no two face for another film.

as much as i would like to see a third installment, the options are slim.

and im sure nolan wants to get to work on some other projects. but, the ending of tdk left things open for anything to happen. batman is back as the guiding force.

Joker and Two-Face are not Batman's only villains. That is one of his prime cinematic advantages.

The fact so many people want to limit this series to just using 2 or 3 villains to me is amazing. Batman has so many other interesting villains, yet we act like he doesn't because two of the stronger ones were used.

To paraphrase TDK: Well, then we'll have to make due with the others.

You guys may have given up on the Riddler, Catwoman, and others. But me, nevah!

[nogster]

two face is not dead.
i never for one second believed he was dead..

to me..the fall was the symbolic death of harvey dent
the "fall from grace"..

you can see where the 3rd film is going..

batman takes the fall so that gothams "white knight" and his legacy can live on..
but in the sequel. the role will be reversed and the people will come to realize that the "dark knight" is the real hero, as batman saves the city from harvey twoface, ironically the man that was meant to be the saviour.

[Vile]

Joker and Two-Face are not Batman's only villains. That is one of his prime cinematic advantages.

The fact so many people want to limit this series to just using 2 or 3 villains to me is amazing. Batman has so many other interesting villains, yet we act like he doesn't because two of the stronger ones were used.

To paraphrase TDK: Well, then we'll have to make due with the others.

You guys may have given up on the Riddler, Catwoman, and others. But me, nevah!


QFT!

Personally, I want Black Mask. I dont need to see Two-Face suddenly alive and kicking again.

[combusticator]

Gordon - Barbra its great to see you and the kids.

Two-Face - I had a family once...
(awkward silence)

Oh MAN LOL! That is the funniest thing I've seen on these boards in several months LOL!!!

[Finlandman]

My opinion on Two-Face's fate has changed again. This time I WANT him be dead, but I can't say that he's dead. It could still go either way.

[carver55]

My original instinct was that he's dead. And even though I think that was the intent, I can see Nolan bringing him back with Ledgers death. I think in the third, they'll add the Riddler (who everyone seems to think Reese or Engle becomes) with both Dent and Batman both trying to bring him to justice in their own competing styles (which would even come back to the difference between Wayne and Ras)

[.Rorschach.]

One reason I think he is still alive is Gordon faked his death,why couldn't Gordon do the same for Harvey and let him go out like a hero.Not letting the public know the monster he had become.

[Gilda]

One reason I think he is still alive is Gordon faked his death,why couldn't Gordon do the same for Harvey and let him go out like a hero.Not letting the public know the monster he had become.

And everyone is forgetting, when saying "But Batman got his armor!"
is that:

-whatever protection the batsuit gives it is not important, when considering a fall. That it physics: the heavier an object is, the grater an impact. (Elephants can die from an 1m fall, wherelse mice can life thru falling 5m, whats equal for falling from an skyscaper for a human).
If this suit isnt antigravity it does nothing to protect him if he falls. Also he can still break his neck, just because he can still turn his head.
So Batman did have exactly the same situation as Harvey had.

[Closerframe]

Two-Face served his purpose, Nolan made him a guy bent on revenge only. Not a villain who lives to fight another day, he only wanted to kill Batman and Gordan because of Rachel. What would be his motive to come back in the third film? Just trying the same thing over and over again.

[returntovoid]

On the wikipedia page for Two-Face, it is said that The Dark Knight/Batman Begins producer and Nolan's wife Emma Thomas said the fall was ambiguous enough to suggest that he might still be alive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Face

[Congo Jack]

Ambiguous (writers could swing either way): but he's probably dead.

[Finlandman]

I have thought up an idea of Harveys return in a third film. ( If he's alive that is.)

Gordon puts him into Arkham, with help of young psychiatrist Harleen Quinnzell. (A nod to the fans. ) Quinnzell helps Harvey secretly in Arkham's basement, where he is locked up for obvious reasons. After a year or so, Harvey escapes.
He tracks down his father who beated him as a child, and Harvey kills him. During this time, Harvey learns what Gordon and Bats did to keep his actions secret. Harvey starts to think Gordon as a ultimate force of good in Gotham, and decides that it, just like everything in Harvey's mind, must have an opposite force. Harvey also decides that third wheel is too much, and that Batman must be offed ASAP.
As a Two-Face, he starts building his anti-police. During this time, Two-Face's crimes will be revealed, and Batman is cleared. But city falls into a depression and suicide-and crime-rates grow.
Two-Face and his army of criminals have Gotham at their mercy. Just as Gordon's Police start attacking Two-Face's hideout, Batman arrives to stop a war of good and evil that would kill hundreds of people. Batman confronts Two-Face and pleads him to stop the madness and give himself in. Two-Face decides to flip a coin. After this, Harvey and his mob, who heared whole conversation via radio, surrender.
In the end, it is revealed that coin landed evil side up.

Keep in mind that this is only Two-Face part of my final part of current Bat films.

Sorry for Off-Topic.

[DIRECTOR]

There is no clear or concise evidence that TWO-FACE is Dead. We see a memorial for HARVEY DENT. The whole ending was to conceal the identity of Two-Face from the general public, Batman and Gordon does not want the Joker to win, which is why they are keeping the secret of Two Face and Batman takes the blame for all the killings that Two-Face has done.

Plus, RIP Heath Ledger, there will be no Joker, so all the more reason that Two-Face is in the third movie in some way shape or form, and plus they can have another villian as well...... say The Riddler.

I can see that happening. There is alot more to Two-Face's character than just taking revenge for Rachel's death. There is that whole double personality issue that Two-Face goes through, I can see that in Nolan's vision, that inner strugglings with between Harvey and Two Face, we see a preview of that when "Harvey Dent" was interrogating that goon in the alley, but Nolan didn't get into the dark side of Harvey Dent.