The Fate of Two Face

[JAWS]

Is he dead or Alive?

I have read opinions on this in a few post and thought I would start it's own thread.


I feel he is still alive and has been secretly put into Arkham Asylum. It would be the perfect way to clear Batman's name in the next film. I mean you just see him lying there as Gorden and Bats talk about the importance of what he stood for. Fake his death Blame it on Batman and his message lives on. Allow people to know he is alive, what he looks like, and what he has become and Gothem falls.

Other opinions?

[StrainedEyes]

Batman doesn't want his name cleared.

[Oryon]

Wouldn't Two Face being alive, specifically for the 3rd movie, somewhat tarnish the end of TDK?

[Nightwatcher11]

This is like the Ra's death in BB. We actually don't see him take his last breath and die we just assume he's dead. And I'm sure he is.

[JAWS]

Wouldn't Two Face being alive, specifically for the 3rd movie, somewhat tarnish the end of TDK?


Oh I don't know. I mean does that mean the end of the Bat signal as we know it. Gorden can never be seen again with Batman. His name must get cleared at some point.

I know that Batman may not want his name cleared but if it's out of his hands then......

Plus Two Face deserves more screen time IMO. He is one of the top Bat villians and he only gets to run around Gothem for a day?

[In a Pickle]

He's dead and frankly, I'm glad he is. I didn't think he was strong enough as a villain to carry his own movie.

[namtaB]

The premise is that Batman took the fall for Dent so that his image as an incorruptible public servant remains intact. If Dent came back it would ruin this premise, something they spent the whole movie trying to build. Plus he was deader than a doornail.

[FlawlessVictory]

I believe he is dead. Didn't Gordon read the eulogy for Dent? Plus, the character served his purpose, targeting those responsible for Rachel. I don't want him brought back just for the sake of bringing him back and then turn into some cliched villain. There is a great sense of tragedy to the character and I feel that would be lost if he is brought back. He was handled perfectly, IMO. Just leave it be.

[FlawlessVictory]

The premise is that Batman took the fall for Dent so that his image as an incorruptible public servant remains intact. If Dent came back it would ruin this premise, something they spent the whole movie trying to build. Plus he was deader than a doornail.

Absolutely.

[FlawlessVictory]

Plus Two Face deserves more screen time IMO. He is one of the top Bat villians and he only gets to run around Gothem for a day?

Yea, how long could you possibly survive with such a half rotten face. Plus, what else you want Two-Face to do? Who do you want him to target and why?

[Steelsheen]

in the third movie (if there will be one, because frankly how TDK ends they could just stop with that), the truth has to come out that Batman didnt kill any of Two-Face's victims. what i think the 3rd film will eventually achieve is that Batman is the right kind of hero for Gotham, the hero that trully represents the city, not the idealized White Knight version that Harvey Dent was. the theme of having the spirit of Gothamites be unbroken must carry over from Harvey Dent to Batman.

what this film showed very clearly was that there was a memorial for "Harvey Dent", the idealized White Knight of Gotham. what Nolan and crew are probably hoping for is the natural assumption of audiences to think that when there is a memorial, that character is dead. in the next film they could very easily show the real truth of Two-Face imprisoned/ under treatment in Arkham, with maybe an allusion of Joker being there as well.

what i'd like to know is what Nolan's plans are for the 3rd film-- if there is a 3rd film of course. i couldnt help get the feeling that the 2nd film seemed to have ended in such finality because Nolan is pissed off at WB and is his way of saying "I quit."

[Nightwatcher11]

I think people forget that this movie was about the rise of the Joker, not Two-Face. And I can understand why someone would be upset with the amount of time they get to see of him... but he was still kick ass IMO... Especially with Maroni in the car. :D

[Jericho1987]

The premise is that Batman took the fall for Dent so that his image as an incorruptible public servant remains intact. If Dent came back it would ruin this premise, something they spent the whole movie trying to build. Plus he was deader than a doornail.

If Dent came back it would shake the foundation of people's trust in that Gotham City lied to them. Instead of him being dead, he was actually locked away.

And that if even the most incorruptible person can be corrupt then what faith does Gotham have?

I'm not saying he will be back. But there is a way to shape it.

[DeGenerate10]

I think he was dead. I hope he was dead. I liked Two Face but I didn't think he was a strong character like he should have been. I'd personally rather see a new villain. I'm sure The Joker will be back in the 3rd but they could use a new side villain.

[Jericho1987]

I think he was dead. I hope he was dead. I liked Two Face but I didn't think he was a strong character like he should have been. I'd personally rather see a new villain. I'm sure The Joker will be back in the 3rd but they could use a new side villain.

Personally I wouldn't want Joker back after the performance Ledger put on.

Well, it's not exactly I wouldn't want Joker back, so much as it's I don't want another actor playing him because I think Heath did such an amazing job and it shouldn't be transformed.

[FaT_tONle]

I don't see what the problem is if they just conceal his death. He'll be dead in the public eye. He'd be a behind the scenes criminal only known as Two-Face... the public would never have to know except the ones who knew Dent best... Batman and Gordon and the Joker of course.

[JAWS]

Yea, how long could you possibly survive with such a half rotten face. Plus, what else you want Two-Face to do? Who do you want him to target and why?


Well would he not target Batman and Gordon??? He blames them both.


I don't feel it will be the end of the world if Two Face does not return but there is a side of me that hates the idea that for such a major villian the new Gothem World will never know that Two Face existed.

[StrainedEyes]

I don't see what the problem is if they just conceal his death. He'll be dead in the public eye. He'd be a behind the scenes criminal only known as Two-Face... the public would never have to know except the ones who knew Dent best... Batman and Gordon and the Joker of course.

Or anyone that sees him. Dent was a public figure and everyone knows his face.

[Oryon]

I think it's pretty unimaginative if Two-Face ends up being alive just for the sake of Batman redeeming himself. I would hope and expect Nolan to delve deeper than that.

[War Party]

I figured this. If the same fall didn't kill Batman, it didn't kill Harvey. And yes, I'm aware Batman had the suit on, but I don't how much that suit protects someone landing flat on your back. I think they put him away without the public knowing.

[Compi716]

I think Two-Face's death was ambiguous at best. He fell a height, sure...but Batman survived the same fall.

I think he's been put away. Eckhart signed on for two movies, and I think we will get to see Two-Face again (hopefully). I hope that he will come back 'Dark Victory' style.

[Mister J]

Why is it that we, as a fan community, do this with practically every death? :dry:

Doc Ock, Venom, Ra's, now Two Face. I'm near certain that if I had have been around shortly after Spider-Man, people would have been claiming the Green Goblin was still alive.

When Gordon was speaking at a function, surrounded by police officers and (what looked to be) city officials, with two big ass pictures of Harvey in the shot and said "He was the hero Gotham needed, but didn't deserve", is it me or was that supposed to be a funeral?

I get the 'hidden agenda' stretch people are claiming could lead to Two Face just being locked up in Arkham, but how does that work? There was a battalion of GCPD around the perimeter of that locale. Wouldn't someone say "where's the body"? The cops had that place surrounded and were fastly closing in (even though they didn't know Dent was there). How much time would Gordon have to hide the body, quarter off that section to keep people from looking there, ran back upstairs and tell Barbara and the kids not to mention anything about Harvey being there and whatever else it would take to pull this ruse off? Did Two Face just eventually get up and run off on his own? How does this 'he's still alive' argument work? :huh:

[DeGenerate10]

Personally I wouldn't want Joker back after the performance Ledger put on.


I completely agree with you but I just think Joker will be back.

[StrainedEyes]

I figured this. If the same fall didn't kill Batman, it didn't kill Harvey. And yes, I'm aware Batman had the suit on, but I don't how much that suit protects someone landing flat on your back. I think they put him away without the public knowing.

Batman's first suit protected him when he jumped out of a window, while on fire, and smashed into a car several stories below, in Begins.
His second suit protected both him and Rachel when they fell off the building.
That suit is built to withstand a fall. It obviously protected Bruce in that last scene.

Harvey is dead.

[War Party]

Why is it that we, as a fan community, do this with practically every death? :dry:

Doc Ock, Venom, Ra's, now Two Face. I'm near certain that if I had have been around shortly after Spider-Man, people would have been claiming the Green Goblin was still alive.

When Gordon was speaking at a function, surrounded by police officers and (what looked to be) city officials, with two big ass pictures of Harvey in the shot and said "He was the hero Gotham needed, but didn't deserve", is it me or was that supposed to be a funeral?

I get the 'hidden agenda' stretch people are claiming could lead to Two Face just being locked up in Arkham, but how does that work? There was a battalion of GCPD around the perimeter of that locale. Wouldn't someone say "where's the body"? The cops had that place surrounded and were fastly closing in (even though they didn't know Dent was there). How much time would Gordon have to hide the body, quarter off that section to keep people from looking there, ran back upstairs and tell Barbara and the kids not to mention anything about Harvey being there and whatever else it would take to pull this ruse off? Did Two Face just eventually get up and run off on his own? How does this 'he's still alive' argument work? :huh:

I completely forgot about the cops being around the perimeter. But weren't they all chasing after Batman instead of heading to the scene? I don't know. It just seems there's more to it, especially when it comes to Nolan.

[FaT_tONle]

Or anyone that sees him. Dent was a public figure and everyone knows his face.

Well I don't think he'll be back IMO unless its a mention or perhaps a cameo... but I think he can return in the next interpretation which may use the Nolan series as loose continuity/background. He can definitely be a behind the scenes villain assuming he escapes from Arkhum. It really doesn't work for a Nolan movie... but maybe a future film maker will change that. This is Doc Ock all over again except it's so much more deeper and poetic.

[StrainedEyes]

Why is it that we, as a fan community, do this with practically every death? :dry:

Doc Ock, Venom, Ra's, now Two Face. I'm near certain that if I had have been around shortly after Spider-Man, people would have been claiming the Green Goblin was still alive.

When Gordon was speaking at a function, surrounded by police officers and (what looked to be) city officials, with two big ass pictures of Harvey in the shot and said "He was the hero Gotham needed, but didn't deserve", is it me or was that supposed to be a funeral?

I get the 'hidden agenda' stretch people are claiming could lead to Two Face just being locked up in Arkham, but how does that work? There was a battalion of GCPD around the perimeter of that locale. Wouldn't someone say "where's the body"? The cops had that place surrounded and were fastly closing in (even though they didn't know Dent was there). How much time would Gordon have to hide the body, quarter off that section to keep people from looking there, ran back upstairs and tell Barbara and the kids not to mention anything about Harvey being there and whatever else it would take to pull this ruse off? Did Two Face just eventually get up and run off on his own? How does this 'he's still alive' argument work? :huh:

Obviously Batman was carrying Dent's still-alive body when he ran off, Duh. :o Didn't you see his moving eye and breathing? Dude is alive.

[War Party]

Batman's first suit protected him when he jumped out of a window, while on fire, and smashed into a car several stories below, in Begins.
His second suit protected both him and Rachel when they fell off the building.
That suit is built to withstand a fall. It obviously protected Bruce in that last scene.

Harvey is dead.

I forgot about him and Rachel falling on the car. This is what happens when you see a movie at midnight. I went to bed and forgot about these minor details.

[DeaDheaD]

I think Two-Face's death was ambiguous at best. He fell a height, sure...but Batman survived the same fall.

I think he's been put away. Eckhart signed on for two movies, and I think we will get to see Two-Face again (hopefully). I hope that he will come back 'Dark Victory' style.
Batman's not gonna die, so "because Batman survived it" doesnt work......plus we dont know how much a suit like that would help or if Batman landed on Harvey or on the ground

[namtaB]

If Dent came back it would shake the foundation of people's trust in that Gotham City lied to them. Instead of him being dead, he was actually locked away.

And that if even the most incorruptible person can be corrupt then what faith does Gotham have?

I'm not saying he will be back. But there is a way to shape it.

There's always a way to shape it. Its just counterintuitive to create a film about the people's hope and faith in an incorruptible individual with Batman being the metaphorical sewer who takes the fall and then have said individual be revealed as being corruptible.

It devalues the whole point of Batman taking the fall to support the ideal of incorruptibility which as Alfred points out is one of the inherent functions of Batman. He can be the outcast, he can make the choice that no one else has to face.

[Majic Walrus]

I think he was dead. I hope he was dead. I liked Two Face but I didn't think he was a strong character like he should have been. I'd personally rather see a new villain. I'm sure The Joker will be back in the 3rd but they could use a new side villain.

Anyone but Heath Ledger playing the joker would simply ruin the film for me. Add to that the fact that repeating baddies make the story seem too similar and then they're not exciting. I liked the amount of time Scarecrow was in TDK. That's fine for a returning character.

The new villian should be completely different from the old villian and should help the movie explore new themes and idea. Obviously BB focused heavily on the nature of fear and justice. TDK focused heavily on the nature of a hero and to a lesser degree chaos.

The new movie should focus on something completely different. I'm hoping for Poison Ivy with subtle appearances by Catwoman (now that Rachel is dead Bruce/Batman needs a new love in his life.)

[metalhead_dave]

If they DO bring Two Face back for the third movie... I figure this could be a good dynamic in a nutshell.

Harvey(escaping from Arkham) would be on the warpath becoming a total monster that Batman has to take down. Upon the end, it's revealed Harvey purposefully becomes a monster to restore Batman's image because Batman never got corrputed and Dent did.

It would be a reversal of the Dark Knight's ending.

[FaT_tONle]

If they DO bring Two Face back for the third movie... I figure this could be a good dynamic in a nutshell.

Harvey(escaping from Arkham) would be on the warpath becoming a total monster that Batman has to take down. Upon the end, it's revealed Harvey purposefully becomes a monster to restore Batman's image because Batman never got corrputed and Dent did.

It would be a reversal of the Dark Knight's ending.

But then the Joker wins... a lot of the public wanted Batman out in the first place... so he really isn't an incorruptible figure at any point like Dent was.

[Mister J]

I completely forgot about the cops being around the perimeter. But weren't they all chasing after Batman instead of heading to the scene? I don't know. It just seems there's more to it, especially when it comes to Nolan.
They're not all going after Batman. They knew Gordon was in trouble and he just called in a bulletin that Bats is a murderer. Somebody's going to check on the new Commish, regardless if he says 'he went thataway' or not.

Even the officers giving pursuit on foot are going to give up when they see that Batman has hauled ass away on a vehicle. They're going to double back to the scene. It wasn't that far off and what happens when the dogs start sniffing around and get a whiff of Half Crispy Harvey?

[Joker8906]

Personally I wouldn't want Joker back after the performance Ledger put on.

Well, it's not exactly I wouldn't want Joker back, so much as it's I don't want another actor playing him because I think Heath did such an amazing job and it shouldn't be transformed.

I had the exact convo with my friends when we were leaving this morning and I agree with you 100% DO NOT RECAST even Danial Day Lewis as much respect and love he had for Heath couldn't come CLOSE 2 what Ledger accomplished.

[War Party]

Yeah, I guess you're right. But in all honesty, it's not definite either way.

[JAWS]

Why is it that we, as a fan community, do this with practically every death? :dry:

Doc Ock, Venom, Ra's, now Two Face. I'm near certain that if I had have been around shortly after Spider-Man, people would have been claiming the Green Goblin was still alive.

When Gordon was speaking at a function, surrounded by police officers and (what looked to be) city officials, with two big ass pictures of Harvey in the shot and said "He was the hero Gotham needed, but didn't deserve", is it me or was that supposed to be a funeral?

I get the 'hidden agenda' stretch people are claiming could lead to Two Face just being locked up in Arkham, but how does that work? There was a battalion of GCPD around the perimeter of that locale. Wouldn't someone say "where's the body"? The cops had that place surrounded and were fastly closing in (even though they didn't know Dent was there). How much time would Gordon have to hide the body, quarter off that section to keep people from looking there, ran back upstairs and tell Barbara and the kids not to mention anything about Harvey being there and whatever else it would take to pull this ruse off? Did Two Face just eventually get up and run off on his own? How does this 'he's still alive' argument work? :huh:


Well I feel that Two Faces Death is a little more ambiguous then the others you have mentioned.

And if he is dead

Well then let me be the first to complain that Two Face death sucked. Yet another villian falls to his death. And not that far of a fall either. Just like Two face in Batman Forever. Only he had a higher fall. If he is dead that will be my one complain of the Dark Knight. Death by falling.

It's not a big complaint but if that is his death I wish they could have come up with something a little more original.

[frosty714]

Doesn't he have to still be alive??

This has been bothering me, sorry if it has been explained somewhere else.

If Tommy Lee Jones plays him in a 'future' Batman movie, then doesn't he still have to be alive for continuity sake??

[War Party]

Doesn't he have to still be alive??

This has been bothering me, sorry if it has been explained somewhere else.

If Tommy Lee Jones plays him in a 'future' Batman movie, then doesn't he still have to be alive for continuity sake??

Are you serious?

[Roy Raymond]

I don't think Two-Face is dead. Harvey Dent is, sure, and they had a memorial for him and probably even buried him.

Two-Face is alive. I think he is. Based on what we saw in the movie -- which wasn't much -- it's entirely possible and even likely. This aside from the fact that Nolan and company seem to realize that definitively killing off major villains is wasteful and foolish, especially when a compelling narrative can be built around the unexpected return of a deadly enemy.

But really, to assume that Harvey is dead because he fell, what, three, maybe four stories? People in the real world have survived falls of thousands of feet... so it is hardly a stretch of the imagination to believe that Harvey lived.

Look, yes, there were cops surrounding the place. Lots of them were chasing Batman. It's a safe bet to assume that some of them went to see after the hostages and make sure the Commish was okay. Which proves... nothing really, because there's no way to know what happened there because we weren't there to see it. The action followed Batman as he escaped the police. We didn't see Harvey Dent stand up, dust himself off, and skulk into the night, but neither did we see them zip Harvey into a body bag and cart him off in a meat wagon.

And frankly, given the themes of the movie, and the extraordinary lengths that Batman was willing to go to in order to save Gotham City -- let's see... kidnapping a foreign national, illegal surveillance, beating information out of suspects, and so forth... is it really so unbelievable that certain government figures in Gotham might <gasp> lie to the public in order to maintain the appearance of that government's integrity?

As for Harvey not being a strong enough character to carry his own film... well, actually he is strong enough to be the central villain in the next film. I believe in Harvey Dent!

[frosty714]

Are you serious?

Yes..I'm serious.

Stupid Question?? :P

Am I missing something????

[FlawlessVictory]

Anyone but Heath Ledger playing the joker would simply ruin the film for me. Add to that the fact that repeating baddies make the story seem too similar and then they're not exciting. I liked the amount of time Scarecrow was in TDK. That's fine for a returning character.

The new villian should be completely different from the old villian and should help the movie explore new themes and idea. Obviously BB focused heavily on the nature of fear and justice. TDK focused heavily on the nature of a hero and to a lesser degree chaos.

Totally agreed, especially with the bold. Plus, it was necessary to bring Scarecrow back because he was still on the loose. No need to bring Joker back, he was captured.

I had the exact convo with my friends when we were leaving this morning and I agree with you 100% DO NOT RECAST even Danial Day Lewis as much respect and love he had for Heath couldn't come CLOSE 2 what Ledger accomplished.

Agreed. Leave it alone. I am confident if Nolan comes back he would not recast Joker. He has so much respect and fondness for Ledger and the hard work he put in.

[GregComicFan]

Two-Face is dead.

There's nothing NEW for him to do in Batman 3. Really... all he would do is continue to seek revenge, but we already saw him do that....

Also...

the best way to discover movie secrets is to look at reality.....did Aaron Eckhart sign on for one film or two? If he only signed on for one film, then Two-Face is dead. Actors typically sign multi-picture deals at the same time.....not on a film-to-film basis.......so if Eckhart only signed on for one film, then Two-Face is certainly a goner..... unless Nolan all of a sudden has a bright idea and seriously thinks Two-Face should come back in B3.

[War Party]

Yes..I'm serious.

Stupid Question?? :P

Am I missing something????

Nolan's movies aren't in continuity with the previous films.

[Tron5000]

Nolan's movies aren't in continuity with the previous films.

What? And here I was waiting for someone to refer to Joker as "Jack." :whatever:

[Roy Raymond]

There's nothing NEW for him to do in Batman 3. Really... all he would do is continue to seek revenge, but we already saw him do that....

By that rationale, there's nothing new for Batman to do in Batman three. Really, all he would do is fight crime, but we already saw him do that.

[Minneapolis Ace]

I just don't think Two Face can strike fear in Gotham like the Joker did, I don't think he's a strong enough character to carry a movie on his own. I think there will be 2 villians in the 3rd movie if they make one.

[ChicageauxTiger]

I want Two Face to be alive, but (unfortunately) I think he's dead. I thought there could have been more story to tell in the 3rd movie, but his overall arc in this one was pretty complete.

And besides, that exposed face would eventually get SO FREAKIN' INFECTED! I mean, jeez, how much longer could he have lived without medical aid?

So, bring on the next villian ... you know Nolan won't disappoint. ;)

[Va3H]

[quote=GregComicFan;15312666]Two-Face is dead.

There's nothing NEW for him to do in Batman 3. Really... all he would do is continue to seek revenge, but we already saw him do that....quote]

I disagree, I feel 2Face adds and deepens the narrative by porgressing Batman as a symbol of hope and further drives his character. Yes, his only purpose might be to exact revenge, but his overarching theme still carries weight in the 3rd film.

[Tron5000]

I just don't think Two Face can strike fear in Gotham like the Joker did, I don't think he's a strong enough character to carry a movie on his own. I think there will be 2 villians in the 3rd movie if they make one.

Well, there were 2 in each of the first 2 films of the series. You may be on to something there. Excellent work, Inspector Clouseau!

[DarkReflections]

my friend and my uncle thought he died but i knew he lived. because nolan would never kill one of batmans greatist foes.

[Tron5000]

I want Two Face to be alive, but (unfortunately) I think he's dead. I thought there could have been more story to tell in the 3rd movie, but his overall arc in this one was pretty complete.

And besides, that exposed face would eventually get SO FREAKIN' INFECTED! I mean, jeez, how much longer could he have lived without medical aid?

So, bring on the next villian ... you know Nolan won't disappoint. ;)

Bruce gave him some Bacteria Repellent Bat Spray.

[ChicageauxTiger]

Bruce gave him some Bacteria Repellent Bat Spray.

Ah. :woot:

Then yeah, why the hell did Nolan kill him off then? :hehe:

[ChicageauxTiger]

Bruce gave him some Bacteria Repellent Bat Spray.

Ah. :woot:

Then yeah, why the hell did Nolan kill him off then? :hehe:

[hegele]

I think he can be very much alive. If Harvey is tough enough to get up and walk away the same day he recieved that bloody scar and not only survive, but survive without morphine, then he is tough enough to survive the fall. ALSO--- Right before he falls, the camera pans to his coin, which is heads up (heads ofcourse to Harvey is usally the sign that someone will live). This might be Nolan forshadowing that he survives.

If they put him in the third one. He should show up half way though. Everyone still think he is dead, including Batman when in fact he is not. After Batman escapes at the end of TDK, paramedics get to Dent, he is unconscience, Gordon could send him to Arkham under an alias. Gordon wants desperately for Harvey to restore faith in Justice and Humanity, perhaps something happens in the story that would need Batman or Bruce to see Harve. Gordon tells him. Batman does what he can to keep Dent's name as a symbol for Gotham, but when he finds out he is still alive it presents a question as to what Gordon and Batman will do (undertones of polititians).

[Jericho1987]

I think he can be very much alive. If Harvey is tough enough to get up and walk away the same day he recieved that bloody scar and not only survive, but survive without morphine, then he is tough enough to survive the fall. ALSO--- Right before he falls, the camera pans to his coin, which is heads up (heads ofcourse to Harvey is usally the sign that someone will live). This might be Nolan forshadowing that he survives.


I totally forgot about that part. Good call.

[NoSrslyWHYSOSRS]

umm....didn't nolan specifically come out and say that the "trilogy" is set up to be the story of two-face. That the Joker was just a median to get to two-face and that batman is going to have to come to terms with a new struggle of here's dent again killing criminals it's bad and batman hates the means to an end but he sees it's doing no good locking people up because they get out in a corrupt system. I mean we see some of this in this movie where he is constantly faced with the idea of killing the joker and everything will be over.

You guys act like there has to be a new villian in every comic book movie... I feel like christopher nolan has made multiple references to star wars and I feel that ending the "trilogy" with a full fledged developed two face and batman honing his skills would be an ending. Did no one else feel that batman wasn't quite on his game in this movie? He still fumbling trying to learn his enemies trying to learn the "rules" of the game. I feel in the comics batman always has plan for any situation...and with this movie we get a glimps of it, but we don't get THE batman. I feel like the third one is going to be the luke skywalker of return of the jedi, like here's batman he's super pro like his ideals are in order, his plans are in order, he has his life where he realizes he needs it and he can now stop crime and be the hero gotham deserves etc etc

WIth the cop out batman saving the joker very VERY similiar to batman '89 I feel that Nolan wouldn't just up and kill two face, plus batman threw two face essentially of the ledge, you're telling me batman doesn't try to save him at all? he just lets him die...this isn't a ra's alghul i don't have to save you this is a i just tackled you off the ledge saved the kid and let you die...batman always makes an attempt. I'm not saying OMG I WANT TWOFACE BACK I am just saying Nolan said the trilology is the building blocks for two-face and Nolan is so right on with the batman doesn't kill that I don't see him just killing two face and not attempting to save him

[hegele]

woa, sorry guys for the tripple posts, my computer at work went nuts.

[Tron5000]

Wow Tron is a turd...

No name-calling until 100 posts. 300 gets you an avatar, and so on. You gotta work up to it, man. Don't just jump right in. Feel the water first.

[Minneapolis Ace]

I've been reading the board here for 2 years, and no way I'm going to take any crap from a dork like you. RAS wasn't much of a villian in the first one, so I only consider 1 in each of the 2 movies thus far.

[Tron5000]

I've been reading the board here for 2 years, and no way I'm going to take any crap from a dork like you. RAS wasn't much of a villian in the first one, so I only consider 1 in each of the 2 movies thus far.

How about toning it down there a little bit. We're all friends here. Just stay away from the Politics forum.

Edit: And despite the fact there were 2 villains in each movie (actually, 3 if you count the original Ra's as well as Ducard), you only "consider" 1? Awesome.

[Fenrir]

It's very much possible Two Face is alive. Like many others have stated already, the fall wasn't big enough to kill someone immediately. And if Batman could be up and running after the fall, I'd wager Dent to survive as well, being unconscious at most.

And no, letting Harvey live does not in any way tarnish the film's ending. It was all about Batman bearing the load of Harvey's sins so that Gotham could still have some hope left. It can effortlessly play into the idea that Harvey lives and Batman and Gordon deliberately suppress the truth about his fate (especially Two-Face). They'd rather have Gotham's white knight end up a celebratory martyr than a living monster.

[Nathaniel Essex]

People, as much as I wan't Harvey Dent/Two-Face to be alive. I've seen the film 4 times now and each time (except the first) I had my eyes on Harvey Dent when he is on the ground, he isn't breathing at all, no movements in his chest, you don't see his nostrils flare or anything

[luke1234]

I think keeping Two Face alive would do plenty of justice to TDK, TDK was about the tragedy of Harvey, thats Why Batman blamed everything on himself for Harvey(the turning of the head part). I think bringing him back from the dead in the 3rd movie would be a good move on The Nolans Part, and itll bring up the questions can we trust our athourities? And it can reestablish Batman of becoming the Superhero he deserves to be

[JayTee]

Did no one else feel that batman wasn't quite on his game in this movie? He still fumbling trying to learn his enemies trying to learn the "rules" of the game. I feel in the comics batman always has plan for any situation...and with this movie we get a glimps of it, but we don't get THE batman.

Dude, did you fall asleep during the Hong Kong scene where he escapes in a plane? Or the Bat Pod weaving in and out of the lampposts to flip the truck? Or the sonar-enhanced stuff at the end where all the SWAT team guys went dangling one by one out the side of the building?

This Batman was more BATMAN than I'd ever seen!!!:brucebat::brucebat::brucebat::brucebat:

[Roy Raymond]

I just don't think Two Face can strike fear in Gotham like the Joker did...

Nor would he particularly want to. Two-Face's motivations are completely different from the Joker's, whose motivations are completely different from The Scarecrow's, and Ra's Al Ghul's.

These are not cookie-cutter villains. What you say would be true if Nolan were concocting "freak of the moment" characters, like the Joker, Penguin, Two-face and the rest from the 90's franchise, but Nolan's baddies are much more complex and layered... it seems more likely that these characters exist as an end unto themselves, and not as simply as the bad guy Batman has to defeat in this movie or that movie. That sort of thinking is what was wrong with comic-book movies; Nolan is showing us another, better way.

[hegele]

People, as much as I wan't Harvey Dent/Two-Face to be alive. I've seen the film 4 times now and each time (except the first) I had my eyes on Harvey Dent when he is on the ground, he isn't breathing at all, no movements in his chest, you don't see his nostrils flare or anything

don't you mean nostril? ;)

Like i said, Nolan has created a more believable universe than any other batman movie, but in a world were a guy could survive that scar on his face and walk around without morhpine, where batman could fall off a building with a girl and land on a car safely... anything is possible.

[Tron5000]

People, as much as I wan't Harvey Dent/Two-Face to be alive. I've seen the film 4 times now and each time (except the first) I had my eyes on Harvey Dent when he is on the ground, he isn't breathing at all, no movements in his chest, you don't see his nostrils flare or anything

Well then by all means, he MUST be dead. Nolan wouldn't dare to anything as tricky as showing an unconscious guy laying on the ground without breathing.

Look, unless they definitively showed Harvey being proclaimed dead, or unless it was otherwise firmly established that he was, then we just don't know, do we? We're all free to make up our own theories until we find out whether or not Eckhart is signed for another one. If he is, Two Face is alive. If he's not, well, then we'll still have to see the movie to know for sure.

[luke1234]

Dude, did you fall asleep during the Hong Kong scene where he escapes in a plane? Or the Bat Pod weaving in and out of the lampposts to flip the truck? Or the sonar-enhanced stuff at the end where all the SWAT team guys went dangling one by one out the side of the building?

This Batman was more BATMAN than I'd ever seen!!!:brucebat::brucebat::brucebat::brucebat:


hahah agreed!

[DeGenerate10]

People, as much as I wan't Harvey Dent/Two-Face to be alive. I've seen the film 4 times now and each time (except the first) I had my eyes on Harvey Dent when he is on the ground, he isn't breathing at all, no movements in his chest, you don't see his nostrils flare or anything

I kept a close eye on Dent also. I didn't seen him breathing at all. But who knows.

[NoSrslyWHYSOSRS]

Dude, did you fall asleep during the Hong Kong scene where he escapes in a plane? Or the Bat Pod weaving in and out of the lampposts to flip the truck? Or the sonar-enhanced stuff at the end where all the SWAT team guys went dangling one by one out the side of the building?

This Batman was more BATMAN than I'd ever seen!!!:brucebat::brucebat::brucebat::brucebat:

hahaha touche touche

[jtfaria]

Why is it that we, as a fan community, do this with practically every death? :dry:

Doc Ock, Venom, Ra's, now Two Face. I'm near certain that if I had have been around shortly after Spider-Man, people would have been claiming the Green Goblin was still alive.

When Gordon was speaking at a function, surrounded by police officers and (what looked to be) city officials, with two big ass pictures of Harvey in the shot and said "He was the hero Gotham needed, but didn't deserve", is it me or was that supposed to be a funeral?

I get the 'hidden agenda' stretch people are claiming could lead to Two Face just being locked up in Arkham, but how does that work? There was a battalion of GCPD around the perimeter of that locale. Wouldn't someone say "where's the body"? The cops had that place surrounded and were fastly closing in (even though they didn't know Dent was there). How much time would Gordon have to hide the body, quarter off that section to keep people from looking there, ran back upstairs and tell Barbara and the kids not to mention anything about Harvey being there and whatever else it would take to pull this ruse off? Did Two Face just eventually get up and run off on his own? How does this 'he's still alive' argument work? :huh:

Yeah, I know. First, they should not have had Two-Face die. He could have just been severely injured, sent to a hospital and hope for the best. That would have been closure enough and Batman STILL would have had reason to take the rap. That would also have left the door open for Harvey himself, in some future installment, to show that he was the one who killed those cops.

So Nolan et al missed the boat there.

At the end of the day, though: Joker DIED in Burton's film. Now he's back. One way or another, these characters always come back. The discontinuity disturbs us, but it does not seem to disturb the filmmakers. So I think the reasons we look for alternatives to these great villains' deaths is because we want to see them again, but we don't want to wait until there's a 'series reboot' for that to happen.

[trueblues]

Nor would he particularly want to. Two-Face's motivations are completely different from the Joker's, whose motivations are completely different from The Scarecrow's, and Ra's Al Ghul's.

These are not cookie-cutter villains. What you say would be true if Nolan were concocting "freak of the moment" characters, like the Joker, Penguin, Two-face and the rest from the 90's franchise, but Nolan's baddies are much more complex and layered... it seems more likely that these characters exist as an end unto themselves, and not as simply as the bad guy Batman has to defeat in this movie or that movie. That sort of thinking is what was wrong with comic-book movies; Nolan is showing us another, better way.

Word.

[3eyes]

At the end of the day, though: Joker DIED in Burton's film. Now he's back. One way or another, these characters always come back. The discontinuity disturbs us, but it does not seem to disturb the filmmakers. So I think the reasons we look for alternatives to these great villains' deaths is because we want to see them again, but we don't want to wait until there's a 'series reboot' for that to happen.

and the batsuit used to have nipples, the lack of continuity is just eating away at me from the inside, how could they move to a batsuit that doesn't have nipples. Why would a complete restart of the franchise that has explicitly said it has nothing to do with the other films not have continuity with those films?

[hegele]

in responce to Mr. J... You do realize that in the same film everyone thought Gordon was dead. Even his family. Multiple people were in on it. Why in the world do you think its impossible for Harv?

[StrainedEyes]

Let's keep in my folks.

Harvey had half of his face and upper body burnt. We aren't talking "Ow I burnt my finger on the spoon" burnt, we're talking you can freaking see bone burnt. So, let's take the blood loss, the infections, the pain, all of that into account. Now toss this guy from at least a 3 story drop, who knows how he landed, presumedly on his back but it could have been on his neck, either way he f'd his spine up. Which will either kill you or paralyze you.

Add to that, that neither Batman nor Gordon looked at all interesting in saving the man's life, if he was alive after the impact. I'm pretty sure both of them know what signs to look for, pulse is not the only way to tell if someone is dead. And if they knew he was alive, I think they would have done something to help the man, not just monologue while the other runs away.

Add to that, that if he was alive, how did he get away? I'm pretty sure we see his body for most of the remaining scene. He wasn't sneaking off. If they were going to sneak him off into Arkham, Gordon can't just do that. He'd have to do it secretly, in a town where everyone is crooked. He'd need to smuggle the living body out of the scene, without the cops knowing he's alive and somehow explain to the people at Arkham that this guy, who looks like Harvey Dent, is not Harvey Dent, and don't ask questions, just lock his unconscious near-dead body away forever.

Add to that Gordon's family, particularly his wife, being there. I highly doubt she would "see the good" in Harvey after what he put her and her family through and help her husband stash his live body in the trunk in order to secretly keep him alive in their basement.

Add to that the funeral and we have one dead character.

Batman survived the fall because he was in a suit that already proved itself able to stand up to such falls and impacts. Harvey was already weak and died when he hit the ground.

I realize there is no one saying "ZOMG Harvey is Dead? Noooo.." But that's because Nolan hopes his audience isn't a bunch of idiots and doesn't want to spell every (obvious) thing out.

[Tron5000]

Let's keep in my folks.

Harvey had half of his face and upper body burnt. We aren't talking "Ow I burnt my finger on the spoon" burnt, we're talking you can freaking see bone burnt. So, let's take the blood loss, the infections, the pain, all of that into account. Now toss this guy from at least a 3 story drop, who knows how he landed, presumedly on his back but it could have been on his neck, either way he f'd his spine up. Which will either kill you or paralyze you.

Add to that, that neither Batman nor Gordon looked at all interesting in saving the man's life, if he was alive after the impact. I'm pretty sure both of them know what signs to look for, pulse is not the only way to tell if someone is dead. And if they knew he was alive, I think they would have done something to help the man, not just monologue while the other runs away.

Add to that, that if he was alive, how did he get away? I'm pretty sure we see his body for most of the remaining scene. He wasn't sneaking off. If they were going to sneak him off into Arkham, Gordon can't just do that. He'd have to do it secretly, in a town where everyone is crooked. He'd need to smuggle the living body out of the scene, without the cops knowing he's alive and somehow explain to the people at Arkham that this guy, who looks like Harvey Dent, is not Harvey Dent, and don't ask questions, just lock his unconscious near-dead body away forever.

Add to that Gordon's family, particularly his wife, being there. I highly doubt she would "see the good" in Harvey and help her husband stash his live body in the trunk in order to secretly keep him alive in their basement.

Add to that the funeral and we have one dead character.

Batman survived the fall because he was in a suit that already proved itself able to stand up to such falls and impacts. Harvey was already weak and died when he hit the ground.

I realize there is no one saying "ZOMG Harvey is Dead? Noooo.." But that's because Nolan hopes his audience isn't a bunch of idiots and doesn't want to spell every (obvious) thing out.

So are you saying that those who believe Harvey is alive are "idiots"? That won't win you too many brownie points.

[StrainedEyes]

So are you saying that those who believe Harvey is alive are "idiots"? That won't win you too many brownie points.

Who said I wanted brownie points?

[hegele]

Did you see the same movie? Just because you are announced dead doesn't mean you are dead ;)

[StrainedEyes]

Why is it that we, as a fan community, do this with practically every death? :dry:

Doc Ock, Venom, Ra's, now Two Face. I'm near certain that if I had have been around shortly after Spider-Man, people would have been claiming the Green Goblin was still alive.



I think I remember people claiming there was a scene cut out of the film, where a group of hooded mystery people took Norman's body, which was supposed to lead to his return.

[Why So Serious?]

Harvey Dent is Dead.

You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

That scene just about sums up the ending perfectly.

Batman willingly took the blame for the murders Harvey commited. He did this so Harvey could die as the hero that Gotham needed. At the same time, becoming the villain himself.

Harvey Dent dies a hero.
Batman lives long enough to see himself become the villain.

It couldn't have ended more perfectly. So anyone saying otherwise, please stop trying to screw with it by saying that Harvey survived.

-WsS?

[StrainedEyes]

Harvey Dent is Dead.

You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

That scene just about sums up the ending perfectly.

Batman willingly took the blame for the murders Harvey commited. He did this so Harvey could die as the hero that Gotham needed. At the same time, becoming the villain himself.

Harvey Dent dies a hero.
Batman lives long enough to see himself become the villain.

It couldn't have ended more perfectly. So anyone saying otherwise, please stop trying to screw with it by saying that Harvey survived.

-WsS?

:up:

[Tron5000]

Harvey Dent is Dead.

You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

That scene just about sums up the ending perfectly.

Batman willingly took the blame for the murders Harvey commited. He did this so Harvey could die as the hero that Gotham needed. At the same time, becoming the villain himself.

Harvey Dent dies a hero.
Batman lives long enough to see himself become the villain.

It couldn't have ended more perfectly. So anyone saying otherwise, please stop trying to screw with it by saying that Harvey survived.

-WsS?

Perhaps it is we who should be asking you, "Why So Serious?"

[hegele]

Harvey Dent is Dead.

You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

That scene just about sums up the ending perfectly.

Batman willingly took the blame for the murders Harvey commited. He did this so Harvey could die as the hero that Gotham needed. At the same time, becoming the villain himself.

Harvey Dent dies a hero.
Batman lives long enough to see himself become the villain.

It couldn't have ended more perfectly. So anyone saying otherwise, please stop trying to screw with it by saying that Harvey survived.

-WsS?

I completely disagree and i think you are confusing the theme. I'm happy with Harv being dead, but i'm not foolish enough to rule out the possibility.

Besides, "Die a hero or live long enough to be a villain" is for public perception, not truth. Truth equels= harvey turning into a villain and batman becoming a hero. public perception= Harvey becoming a hero and batman becoming a villain. Thus you can't use the quote to define what you believe to be true; that harvey is dead. Harvey is dead to the public.

[Roy Raymond]

Harvey Dent is Dead.
It couldn't have ended more perfectly. So anyone saying otherwise, please stop trying to screw with it by saying that Harvey survived.


No... I don't think I shall.

The perfect ending here is to have batman and Gordon further define the ambiguity of their position by conspiring to conceal the truth about what Harvey Dent ultimately became for the greater good of saving Gotham City. In other words, by making the choices that no one else could.

And have you considered, in the beautiful duality of Harvey Dent's character -- that if he lives, he will have both died a hero and lived long enough to see himself become the villain? Both sides of the coin... embodied in one man.

Perfect Two-Face...

[DarkReflections]

Bruce gave him some Bacteria Repellent Bat Spray.

*smacks head* why didnt i think of that before.

[Comicfilmer]

After seeing the film, it's clear that Harvey Dent is dead. What isn't clear is whether or not Two-Face is dead. I'm going to bank on the fact that he might not be. I think Nolan left it open so that he could bring him back if he wanted to or keep him dead if he so chooses. It's all a little ambiguous.

[Tron5000]

No... I don't think I shall.

The perfect ending here is to have batman and Gordon further define the ambiguity of their position by conspiring to conceal the truth about what Harvey Dent ultimately became for the greater good of saving Gotham City. In other words, by making the choices that no one else could.

And have you considered, in the beautiful duality of Harvey Dent's character -- that if he lives, he will have both died a hero and lived long enough to see himself become the villain? Both sides of the coin... embodied in one man.

Perfect Two-Face...

I like that. Harvey, the hero, has died. Two Face, the villain, lives on.

And I really can't see Nolan offing such an important character in such a nonchalant manner. I just really have difficulty with that one.

Then, add in the fact that Batman does not kill. Had he actually killed Harvey, I think we would've seen more emotion from him, perhaps even him trying to save Harvey's life. He wouldn't let the Joker create a monster that would result in Bactman breaking his "one rule" without fighting for Harvey's life.

As I said before, guess we don't really know for certain. But I'm sure we will very soon.

[hegele]

Does anyone know if Eckhart was singed for more than one picture? If he was then that would answer it. They would put it in his contract if the script already indicated his character passed.

[Roy Raymond]

By the same token, if they do in fact plan to bring him back, then that information would be carefully guarded...

[hegele]

By the same token, if they do in fact plan to bring him back, then that information would be carefully guarded...

true story. Lets hope if there is a third and if Nlan directs it and if he does live, he'll have more to do than Crane in TDK (though i loved his scene)

[Mikelus]

Let's keep in my folks.

Harvey had half of his face and upper body burnt. We aren't talking "Ow I burnt my finger on the spoon" burnt, we're talking you can freaking see bone burnt. So, let's take the blood loss, the infections, the pain, all of that into account. Now toss this guy from at least a 3 story drop, who knows how he landed, presumedly on his back but it could have been on his neck, either way he f'd his spine up. Which will either kill you or paralyze you.

Add to that, that neither Batman nor Gordon looked at all interesting in saving the man's life, if he was alive after the impact. I'm pretty sure both of them know what signs to look for, pulse is not the only way to tell if someone is dead. And if they knew he was alive, I think they would have done something to help the man, not just monologue while the other runs away.

Add to that, that if he was alive, how did he get away? I'm pretty sure we see his body for most of the remaining scene. He wasn't sneaking off. If they were going to sneak him off into Arkham, Gordon can't just do that. He'd have to do it secretly, in a town where everyone is crooked. He'd need to smuggle the living body out of the scene, without the cops knowing he's alive and somehow explain to the people at Arkham that this guy, who looks like Harvey Dent, is not Harvey Dent, and don't ask questions, just lock his unconscious near-dead body away forever.

Add to that Gordon's family, particularly his wife, being there. I highly doubt she would "see the good" in Harvey after what he put her and her family through and help her husband stash his live body in the trunk in order to secretly keep him alive in their basement.

Add to that the funeral and we have one dead character.

Batman survived the fall because he was in a suit that already proved itself able to stand up to such falls and impacts. Harvey was already weak and died when he hit the ground.

I realize there is no one saying "ZOMG Harvey is Dead? Noooo.." But that's because Nolan hopes his audience isn't a bunch of idiots and doesn't want to spell every (obvious) thing out.

Lets say some people are just freaking delusional and don't want to accept reality as it is every time a character dies but is not "officially declared dead". :o

[Ratatat]

This is starting to piss me off when people are in complete denial about a character. Harvey IS DEAD! Get it? HE DIED! He's not ever coming back. Did some of you not see the movie? There is no way in hell Two-Face will be in the third. Get over it NOW!

[Tron5000]

This is starting to piss me off when people are in complete denial about a character. Harvey IS DEAD! Get it? HE DIED! He's not ever coming back. Did some of you not see the movie? There is no way in hell Two-Face will be in the third. Get over it NOW!

You need to chill out there, little homey.

It's one thing for people to have differing opinions / interpretations of what they saw on screen. It's quite another to start talking down to people and ordering them to do things, like "Get over it NOW!"

CTFO.

[Ratatat]

Harvey Dent is Dead.

You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

That scene just about sums up the ending perfectly.

Batman willingly took the blame for the murders Harvey commited. He did this so Harvey could die as the hero that Gotham needed. At the same time, becoming the villain himself.

Harvey Dent dies a hero.
Batman lives long enough to see himself become the villain.

It couldn't have ended more perfectly. So anyone saying otherwise, please stop trying to screw with it by saying that Harvey survived.

-WsS?

Thank you!

[Ratatat]

You need to chill out there, little homey.

It's one thing for people to have differing opinions / interpretations of what they saw on screen. It's quite another to start talking down to people and ordering them to do things, like "Get over it NOW!"

CTFO.

What does this post have to do with Two-Face?

Oh.

CTFO.

[DeaDheaD]

I completely disagree and i think you are confusing the theme. I'm happy with Harv being dead, but i'm not foolish enough to rule out the possibility.

Besides, "Die a hero or live long enough to be a villain" is for public perception, not truth. Truth equels= harvey turning into a villain and batman becoming a hero. public perception= Harvey becoming a hero and batman becoming a villain. Thus you can't use the quote to define what you believe to be true; that harvey is dead. Harvey is dead to the public.
But the public is never going to find out the truth.

[Perdition]

why are you guys getting so pissed off about other peoples opinions on what happened lol. unless one of you is nolan as a ninja, none of your opinions or thoughts about what happened to him matter. he could be dead, he could be alive, but none of your fanboy OH MY GOD HE'S DEAD JUST LEAVE IT BE or HE'S ALIVE I SAW HIS NOSTRIL MOVE posts matter.

[TheBat812]

in the third movie (if there will be one, because frankly how TDK ends they could just stop with that), the truth has to come out that Batman didnt kill any of Two-Face's victims. what i think the 3rd film will eventually achieve is that Batman is the right kind of hero for Gotham, the hero that trully represents the city, not the idealized White Knight version that Harvey Dent was. the theme of having the spirit of Gothamites be unbroken must carry over from Harvey Dent to Batman.

what this film showed very clearly was that there was a memorial for "Harvey Dent", the idealized White Knight of Gotham. what Nolan and crew are probably hoping for is the natural assumption of audiences to think that when there is a memorial, that character is dead. in the next film they could very easily show the real truth of Two-Face imprisoned/ under treatment in Arkham, with maybe an allusion of Joker being there as well.

what i'd like to know is what Nolan's plans are for the 3rd film-- if there is a 3rd film of course. i couldnt help get the feeling that the 2nd film seemed to have ended in such finality because Nolan is pissed off at WB and is his way of saying "I quit."
That's what I was seeing as well. It's a funeral for what was supposed to be a more noble/legal way of right (white knight). But what Gotham needs is Batman (dark knight). Such great symbolism in this movie put in a 'realistic' context.

[Mister J]

in responce to Mr. J... You do realize that in the same film everyone thought Gordon was dead. Even his family. Multiple people were in on it. Why in the world do you think its impossible for Harv?
What does one have to do with the other? Whether or not Gordon's 'death' was planned in advance or made up on the fly, it makes sense because it was to accomplish something in the relatively short term; drawing out the Joker for possible capture. There's a readily identifiable endgame there.

How exactly does this work with Dent? What, Gordon ordered everyone on site to go along with his plan about Dent being dead, while they usher him off the some remote hospital or Arkham and keep that all on the hush? If Dent's alive, doesn't this whole thing blow up at some point when he starts yapping? Do they hope to rehabilitate him and eventually get him to go along with the deal or just keep him in isolation forever and out of the public eye? Are they just stalling for time until they hope the city is strong enough to deal with their white knight being as corruptible as anyone else?

The point of trying to protect Harvey's reputation gets kinda shot if there's practically an entire police force that knows he eventually became a villainous rogue. I don't believe they were to be excluded when Batman said "people need to have their faith rewarded". Two Face was pretty adamant about "not wanting to escape this" because "there was no escape". In the context of using dialogue to frame a scene, that sounds pretty final to me.

No one can truly prove or disprove anything, unless it's unambiguously stated (and even that doesn't stop some people). If they want to bring Two Face back they will, because movies operate on their own rules and logic. However, that hardly means such a conclusion is likely or worth entertaining, especially if it seems haphazard. You could spin situations like these all day long. Who's to say Batman doesn't run out of gas at the end of the film, gets apprehended and unmasked and is in Arkham when/if the third film begins. Sure, it's possible and there's nothing citing otherwise, but how much sense does it make?

Overall, my problem with fostering any real belief that Dent is still alive is because I see no plausible way that it makes sense. Can anyone lay out a scenario that makes sense of such?

[Tron5000]

What does this post have to do with Two-Face?

Oh.

CTFO.

The fact that you are ranting about Two Face's so obvious death, when in fact, it was left ambiguous so that the viewer may infer as to his fate. You don't know for certain that Harvey is dead, since you didn't write, direct or star in the film. You're basing your belief on what you saw on screen. Well, guess what? Those who believe Harvey lived do so for the same reason as you: based on their interpretation of what they saw on the screen. You condescending to others by stating that you, in all your wisdom and knowledge, know the truth about what happened, and also telling people to stop discussing it because it is "pissing [you] off." So take a pill if you need to, have a drink, and let us know when you feel like discussing things in an adult, logical, rational manner.

[kevin2323]

Batman's first suit protected him when he jumped out of a window, while on fire, and smashed into a car several stories below, in Begins.
His second suit protected both him and Rachel when they fell off the building.
That suit is built to withstand a fall. It obviously protected Bruce in that last scene.

Harvey is dead.

You mean harvey is dead IMO.

Harvey isn't dead IMO. Joker basically says he is the next villain when he is hanging upside down. Two face doesnt fall off 7 stories. And it is an easy cover up so the people of gotham don't see what their white knight became so they don't lose hope. Also the obvious fact that they don't talk about him being dead and he looked knocked out and no casket at the memorial. Oh and ussually when villains die they have a couple of last words especially in the end of a movie. If this was two-face's last moment he would've said his last words.

IMO of course

[TaterSalad]

So... Batman killed Harvey. He shoved him off the ledge, and "died" as a result.

Wouldn't that make Jokers' "break your one rule" a reality?

[Jericho1987]

Harvey Dent wasn't in a casket from what I saw.

Until I see something like that, the door is left open I'd imagine (to go either way). Which is a reason why there is any argument in the first place.

[Ratatat]

The fact that you are ranting about Two Face's so obvious death, when in fact, it was left ambiguous so that the viewer may infer as to his fate. You don't know for certain that Harvey is dead, since you didn't write, direct or star in the film. You're basing your belief on what you saw on screen. Well, guess what? Those who believe Harvey lived do so for the same reason as you: based on their interpretation of what they saw on the screen. You condescending to others by stating that you, in all your wisdom and knowledge, know the truth about what happened, and also telling people to stop discussing it because it is "pissing [you] off." So take a pill if you need to, have a drink, and let us know when you feel like discussing things in an adult, logical, rational manner.

lol, are you still trying to argue? :rolleyes:

Get over it....... now.

[DeaDheaD]

So... Batman killed Harvey. He shoved him off the ledge, and "died" as a result.

Wouldn't that make Jokers' "break your one rule" a reality?
Batman's one rule is that he won't kill someone in cold-blood......."He's no excutioner"

[DeaDheaD]

You mean harvey is dead IMO.

Harvey isn't dead IMO. Joker basically says he is the next villain when he is hanging upside down. Two face doesnt fall off 7 stories. And it is an easy cover up so the people of gotham don't see what their white knight became so they don't lose hope. Also the obvious fact that they don't talk about him being dead and he looked knocked out and no casket at the memorial. Oh and ussually when villains die they have a couple of last words especially in the end of a movie. If this was two-face's last moment he would've said his last words.

IMO of course
:lmao:

[Mister J]

Some of this antagonism in here is going to have to go, regardless of what side you fall on. It's all opinion and speculation and no one can prove jack one way or the other. If the fact that people hold the opposite belief as you do troubles you, leave.

[Vaako]

No two-face. No joker. If they are to going to appera in #3 it will probably be in an asylum where you only hear their voices. I'm looking forward to new villains. particularly black mask or firefly now that's interesting.

[Roy Raymond]

This is starting to piss me off when people are in complete denial about a character.

Well, that's what I was trying to do. Obviously.

Harvey's alive. You know it, deep inside your guts... that when Christopher Nolan's "Shadow of the Batman" premieres in theaters in, what, 2011? -- That Two-Face will be present and accounted for.

[hegele]

But the public is never going to find out the truth.

Thats exactly my point, and thats why using the quote "you either die a hero or live long enough to become a villain" to thematically justify harvey being 100% dead is illogical. Truth equels= harvey turning into a villain and batman becoming a hero. public perception= Harvey becoming a hero and batman becoming a villain. Thus you can't use the quote to define what you believe to be true; that harvey is dead. Harvey is dead to the public. Thats all you can use that quote for in terms of thematic elemets.

[NoSrslyWHYSOSRS]

plausible two face story line:

i think it boils down to the fact that all of this happened in like a couple days a week at the most...you're telling me batman/gordon didn't see the good in two face from before, they just right him off b/c he is doing insane things...you don't think they are going to try and rehabilitate him? sending an even stronger message that good can prevail even under the worse circumstances. Look we took harvey dent, his life is ruined but we can get him back out there, cleaning up the streets, we can use him to save gotham again, he represents a new face for fighting, a face that's been through hell and still on the good side

a plausible way of getting harvey dent out of there? if batman has been killing people why not set it up so batman had gordon's family under hostage, no one knows other wise, harvey dent comes to the rescue and is subsequently thrown from a couple floors it's not really that high, by batman and he gets knocked unconscious...batman then runs away as he realizes gordon's task force is closing in...bam they get harvey to an institute to treat him and try to bring him back...the start of the next movie...a very plausible way to get harvey back on track

[DeaDheaD]

Thats exactly my point, and thats why using the quote "you either die a hero or live long enough to become a villain" to thematically justify harvey being 100% dead is illogical. Truth equels= harvey turning into a villain and batman becoming a hero. public perception= Harvey becoming a hero and batman becoming a villain. Thus you can't use the quote to define what you believe to be true; that harvey is dead. Harvey is dead to the public. Thats all you can use that quote for in terms of thematic elemets.
But to the public, their perception about Harvey being the Hero and Batman being the Villain is the truth, to them, because they will never know the real truth, that motto still applies

[J.Howlett]

Harvey's dead for the simple fact that the film looses all it's thematic weight it's been building for two and a half hours if all of sudden we open to the next film and Harvey's actually alive.

His death was the death of hope, the death of pure symbol of good. Hence, Gordon's speech at the end, ending it with "a dark knight."

That's why Harvey's really dead. Screw the actual details. Thematically, Nolan had no choice but to kill him.

[hegele]

But to the public, their perception about Harvey being the Hero and Batman being the Villain, because they will never know the real truth, that motto still applies

It does, i agree. I disagree with the poster who used the line to thematically justify the "truth in Dent being dead". The line can only be used to emphesise the publics perception of his death. Not the actuality of his death.

[Minneapolis Ace]

Bring on The Penguin and Riddler!

[toenexx]

Harvey Dent is dead. Two-Face is alive. Here are some clues that might support him being alive:

- Two fake deaths, Joker and Gordon. We all know Nolan likes repeating ideas in his movies. Why not with Dent?
- Maroni being thrown off a building and not dying.
- Batman doesn’t kill, otherwise the Joker would of gotten his wish of making Batman break his rule.
- No coffin, no mention of his death.. only a speech by Gordon.
- Also, right after we see Dent flip the coin, Batman charges at him, they go over the ledge, then there is a cut to the coin flipping to heads… a possible indication to Dent’s life?

You have to remember Christopher Nolan likes to put twists in his movies, so I don’t think it’s a far-fetched idea that Two-Face is alive. I like how Nolan left it open, that in case he needed Two-Face for the third, he's there. But it also wouldn’t surprise me that he is dead, considering that Two-Face’s only interesting aspect is his transformation.

[hegele]

Harvey Dent is dead. Two-Face is alive. Here are some clues that might support him being alive:

- Two fake deaths, Joker and Gordon. We all know Nolan likes repeating ideas in his movies. Why not with Dent?
- Maroni being thrown off a building and not dying.
- Batman doesn’t kill, otherwise the Joker would of gotten his wish of making Batman break his rule.
- No coffin, no mention of his death.. only a speech by Gordon.
- Also, right after we see Dent flip the coin, Batman charges at him, they go over the ledge, then there is a cut to the coin flipping to heads… a possible indication to Dent’s life?

You have to remember Christopher Nolan likes to put twists in his movies, so I don’t think it’s a far-fetched idea that Two-Face is alive. But it also wouldn’t surprise me that he is dead, considering that Two-Face’s only interesting aspect is his transformation.

Correcto mundo, especially in your last point, which not a lot of people want to acknowledge. It was placed there for a reason.

I'm not definatively saying he is alive, im not at all opposed to the idea of him being dead but to ignore the idea that it is left open for interpertation is ignorant of what Nolan accomplished.

If you feel like Dent died, fine. Just don't be like "OMG he diedz its sooo obvious!!! idiot!!"

[Untilteld]

- Also, right after we see Dent flip the coin, Batman charges at him, they go over the ledge, then there is a cut to the coin flipping to heads… a possible indication to Dent’s life?


Damn good point, totally forgot about that. It was Heads save a life and Tails lose one wasn't it for all his other victims? Maybe the coin judged his own fate.

[StrainedEyes]

Harvey Dent is dead. Two-Face is alive. Here are some clues that might support him being alive:

- Two fake deaths, Joker and Gordon. We all know Nolan likes repeating ideas in his movies. Why not with Dent?
- Maroni being thrown off a building and not dying.
- Batman doesn’t kill, otherwise the Joker would of gotten his wish of making Batman break his rule.
- No coffin, no mention of his death.. only a speech by Gordon.
- Also, right after we see Dent flip the coin, Batman charges at him, they go over the ledge, then there is a cut to the coin flipping to heads… a possible indication to Dent’s life?

You have to remember Christopher Nolan likes to put twists in his movies, so I don’t think it’s a far-fetched idea that Two-Face is alive. But it also wouldn’t surprise me that he is dead, considering that Two-Face’s only interesting aspect is his transformation.

-Two planned fake deaths. Unless Batman, Gordon, and Two-Face got together and decided how they'd save Harvey prior to the incident, it wasn't planned.
-Maroni landed on his feet. Two-face on his spine.
-Batman doesn't kill in cold blood. He saved a child's life.
-Do you seriously need a coffin or someone saying "He's dead :csad:" for you to believe a character is dead? Do you think the guy Joker said would be cut up and fed to the dogs is dead? You never see his coffin or have anyone say "Boss we killed that dude and fed him to the dogs." So he must be alive, right?
-The coin flip was for the boy. It was his fate to be chosen next.

[DeaDheaD]

It does, i agree. I disagree with the poster who used the line to thematically justify the "truth in Dent being dead". The line can only be used to emphesise the publics perception of his death. Not the actuality of his death.
My keyboard started to hate me halfway through my post....
My opinion(and its really just my opinion) is that it doesn't matter what the truth is, we all know Batman is really the "White Knight" and "Dark Knight" of Gotham, Batman and Gordon are the only "Knights" Gotham has....but the people of Gotham BELIEVE that Harvey was their saviour, everybody BELIEVED it, and if Batman has to take the "pr hit" then he's willing........as long as people believe in something, it doesn't matter if its true or not.

Harvey died a hero and Batman becomes the villain because Gotham City believes it to be true...Harvey has to be dead to have died as the hero.

But us moviegoers know the truth ;), we just got to keep a secret

[hegele]

My keyboard started to hate me halfway through my post....
My opinion(and its really just my opinion) is that it doesn't matter what the truth is, we all know Batman is really the "White Knight" and "Dark Knight" of Gotham, Batman and Gordon are the only "Knights" Gotham has....but the people of Gotham BELIEVE that Harvey was their saviour, everybody BELIEVED it, and if Batman has to take the "pr hit" then he's willing........as long as people believe in something, it doesn't matter if its true or not.

Harvey died a hero and Batman becomes the villain because Gotham City believes it to be true...Harvey has to be dead to have died as the hero.

But us moviegoers know the truth ;), we just got to keep a secret

That i totally agree with.

[Roy Raymond]

Well...

Frankly, the fact that there was no coffin doesn't have to mean that he's not dead. Harvey was hideously scarred, and in such cases, a closed casket is not unusual. But a memorial service is usually held when there is no body to be found....

Since they had a body, why a memorial service instead of a closed-casket funeral?

Just thinking out loud...

[StrainedEyes]

Well...

Frankly, the fact that there was no coffin doesn't have to mean that he's not dead. Harvey was hideously scarred, and in such cases, a closed casket is not unusual. But a memorial service is usually held when there is no body to be found....

Since they had a body, why a memorial service instead of a closed-casket funeral?

Just thinking out loud...

That was more like a public memorial about Harvey's death, I don't think that was his actual funeral.

[DeaDheaD]

That i totally agree with.
Minus the fact that Nolan is running out of villains for a third Batman, if he can really take whats left of TDK and mold Batman 3 into being the movie where Batman becomes "The White Knight" as far as public perception.

[toenexx]

-Two planned fake deaths. Unless Batman, Gordon, and Two-Face got together and decided how they'd save Harvey prior to the incident, it wasn't planned.
-Maroni landed on his feet. Two-face on his spine.
-Batman doesn't kill in cold blood. He saved a child's life.
-Do you seriously need a coffin or someone saying "He's dead :csad:" for you to believe a character is dead? Do you think the guy Joker said would be cut up and fed to the dogs is dead? You never see his coffin or have anyone say "Boss we killed that dude and fed him to the dogs." So he must be alive, right?
-The coin flip was for the boy. It was his fate to be chosen next.

-Planned yes, but the whole idea of fake deaths is totally not out of the question.
-They never showed the fall.
-He lunged at him, he is direct fault of Dent's life which is why I don't think he's entirely dead. Batman had to make a choice in attempting to fatally hurt both the child and Dent, but he knew what he did, neither of them would of been killed. Batman's attempt for the child wasn't to avoid death, but injury.
-The ambigiuity of deaths in the movie is the only thing that's keeping the "Dent is dead" theory going on. However, Rachael and Leob's death was said by the characters.
-Of course, the coin was for the boy... but why cut to the coin then? Why not show the fall? There has to be some sort of meaning in showing the coin's outcome.

Again, it can go either way. Nolan made it very ambigous, if he needs Two-Face in the third... he's there.

[Dark Globe]

Nolan kinda left it at a huge opening. It could go either way. Maybe he's just trying to figure out what he wants to do next?

[MaskedManJRK]

I can really see it going either way.

On one hand, I find it somewhat hard to believe that Nolan, in an attempt in creating a "realistic" universe would have someone who had half his body burned almost to the bone, with no painkillers, running around, potentially getting his wounds infected, get into a car accident, and then finally fall several stories on his spine and living to see the sequel.

On the other hand, I would think that if they do a sequel, they would probably restablish Batman's hero status, and that's either done by someone exposing what Harvey did or having him come back and doing it himself.

[StrainedEyes]

It's amazing to me that this discussion comes up after every single comic book movie. Yet it has never been true, no bad guy has ever been dead in one movie and come back in the next. Someday, right? Someday the far fetched clues will be true.

[Tron5000]

Correcto mundo, especially in your last point, which not a lot of people want to acknowledge. It was placed there for a reason.

I'm not definatively saying he is alive, im not at all opposed to the idea of him being dead but to ignore the idea that it is left open for interpertation is ignorant of what Nolan accomplished.

If you feel like Dent died, fine. Just don't be like "OMG he diedz its sooo obvious!!! idiot!!"

^I'm with this guy. Don't know if he's alive or not, but I'd be kinda disappointed if he's dead. Kind of a chump way to go out.

[StrainedEyes]

^I'm with this guy. Don't know if he's alive or not, but I'd be kinda disappointed if he's dead. Kind of a chump way to go out.

Going out as a hero in the eyes of the entire city is a chump way to go?

[toenexx]

I can really see it going either way.

On one hand, I find it somewhat hard to believe that Nolan, in an attempt in creating a "realistic" universe would have someone who had half his body burned almost to the bone, with no painkillers, running around, potentially getting his wounds infected, get into a car accident, and then finally fall several stories on his spine and living to see the sequel.

On the other hand, I would think that if they do a sequel, they would probably restablish Batman's hero status, and that's either done by someone exposing what Harvey did or having him come back and doing it himself.

Yea, good point. I can't wait til the third! UGHHHH

[JAWS]

Again I say If Two face is dead then I am a tad dissapointed with the writters that this was the best they could come up with. The same way Two face dies in Batman Forever? Blah! And not even that far of a fall. I just don't buy it.


Oh well. I just want a 3rd Batman film. I have read on here that Nolan is Mad at Warner. What is the story behind that?

[Tron5000]

Going out as a hero in the eyes of the entire city is a chump way to go?

No, living through the explosion and burns and dying after a short fall. Especially one caused by Batman.

[The Guard]

He's dead. Batman killed him and he's dead. Apparently the writers forgot that Batman has...

Shooting batblades
Batarangs
A grappling gun
A number of martial arts moves and holds

He just had to tackle them all over the edge.

[Screwpa!]

I'm pissed he's dead too and hoping they staged a funeral to keep the "white knight" image up. Then I start to think, what would they do with Dent in the next movie?

I know that all of us fanboys have a zillion plots in our heads for another movie, but Nolan loves to show the journey of a character. This looks like a complete journey for a character to me.

[The Guard]

That wasn't a funeral. It was just a memorial service. And I'm pretty sure that's just because ending the movie with a funeral would be a downer, whereas a public memorial service serves the themes better.

[DeaDheaD]

He's dead. Batman killed him and he's dead. Apparently the writers forgot that Batman has...

Shooting batblades
Batarangs
A grappling gun
A number of martial arts moves and holds

He just had to tackle them all over the edge.
Other than Harvey, who did he tackle over the edge?

[Rorschach II]

The thing is, if Batman tackles Harvey Dent off a building and kills him, it would defeat the purpose of the entire movie (his struggle to not kill the Joker, even hurting himself when he careens into a truck on the Batpod to avoid killing him). And Harvey was clearly breathing. I know you could say that maybe Aaron Eckhart was breathing by accident or something, but with big movies like this that doesn't happen. Two-Face is alive, in Arkham, and his death has been faked. I can't believe anyone even THINKS Two-Face is dead.

[ShadowoftheBird]

Nolan kinda left it at a huge opening. It could go either way. Maybe he's just trying to figure out what he wants to do next?

Exactly. The ambiguity is present here (with ALL the details listed by toenexx presented as disposable clues) solely so we can choose to end the movie on the assumption he died and there was no cover up, or we can choose to continue the movie with Two-Face returning in order to dispense justice on a grand scale.

The movie doesn't FOR SURE end with Harvey's death, nor does it FOR SURE imply that he is alive. Like I said, disposable clues -- each can have a double meaning if we look for it. Harvey could've died from the fall (third times the charm) or the previous falls could've implied that he will not die. The coin could be heads up to show that the boy would've survived anyways, or it could be heads up to show that after Batman intervened, the question of chance fell on Harvey himself, and the coin turned right side up to show that chance chooses for him to live again. Keep in mind, when he flipped the coin for himself, it landed face up as well.

As far as theme goes, consider that Nolan said "things have to get worse before they can get better." this could've been a reflection on Gotham improving by the end of the film or a reflection on Batman having to be outlawed before he can be accepted.

Thematically, Harvey can live and it doesn't destroy the message of the story. His return can be written a LOT of different ways that are all credible.

Then again, it could be completely ignored and his assumed death becomes the established truth. Right now, the only changes we are definitely carrying into this next movie are (IMHO):

-Lucius and Bruce are more explicitly working together.
-Bruce's secret, unless Reese is an ungrateful ass, is preserved.
-Rachel Dawes is dead.
-Harvey Dent's memory as a hero is preserved.
-If not dead, Harvey is at least in custody/hospitalized.
-The police are chasing Batman, but Gordon now trusts him more than ever.
-The Joker is caught.
-Alfred is protecting Rachel's secret from Bruce, presumably because the pain of that truth might destroy him while the pain of her death will keep him pursuing justice.

[CloseYourEyes]

My question is whether or not the second corrupt cop (Ramirez I think) is dead or not. She gets a lucky coin flip and he knocks her out, but Gordon at the end says five are dead, two of them being cops, which would indicate he killed her unless there is a cop Im missing. But if she is alive, then she knows about 2Face, but no one knows she was the corrupt one since everyone else that knew is dead. If she is alive and knows then she could spill the beans on the entire cover up (about who really did the other killings)

[The Guard]

Other than Harvey, who did he tackle over the edge?

The kid. Why else would Batman be hanging there with the kid? Harvey certainly didn't throw the kid over the edge.

[DeaDheaD]

The kid. Why else would Batman be hanging there with the kid? Harvey certainly didn't throw the kid over the edge.
What would you have done after getting shot in the stomach?

[emj2006]

I personally believe Harvey is still alive. I believe in Harvey Dent. If you guys noticed, before he took the fall with Batman, the coin landed on heads(maybe indicated he would still be alive) and he kinda "smiled" when he was on the ground. We don't see his body or anything so he MUST be ALIVE!! Plus Eckhart signed a 2 movie deal didn't he??

[Phoenix2088]

I have read on here that Nolan is Mad at Warner. What is the story behind that?

Not sure where you heard that, because I sure have not.

[StrainedEyes]

I personally believe Harvey is still alive. I believe in Harvey Dent. If you guys noticed, before he took the fall with Batman, the coin landed on heads(maybe indicated he would still be alive) and he kinda "smiled" when he was on the ground. We don't see his body or anything so he MUST be ALIVE!! Plus Eckhart signed a 2 movie deal didn't he??

You see his body a lot after he hits... and he does not smile.

[Taiwarriorz21]

Is he dead or Alive?

I have read opinions on this in a few post and thought I would start it's own thread.


I feel he is still alive and has been secretly put into Arkham Asylum. It would be the perfect way to clear Batman's name in the next film. I mean you just see him lying there as Gorden and Bats talk about the importance of what he stood for. Fake his death Blame it on Batman and his message lives on. Allow people to know he is alive, what he looks like, and what he has become and Gothem falls.

Other opinions?

exactly on the dot what i was think. man this movie freaking pwn!

[The Guard]

What would you have done after getting shot in the stomach?

Exactly what are you referring to?

[emj2006]

You see his body a lot after he hits... and he does not smile.
Sorry not exactly smiling, but there was somewhat of a grin on his non-scarred face. And on the body, I was trying to say we don't see his body on a casket or anything when Jim Gordon is doing that speech

[StrainedEyes]

Sorry not exactly smiling, but there was somewhat of a grin on his non-scarred face. And on the body, I was trying to say we don't see his body on a casket or anything when Jim Gordon is doing that speech

Man, what is with you people and needing to see a body in a casket? Is that the only way to indicate death in a movie?

[raider34r]

the answer to many of these questions is pretty obvious to me, two face has to be alive

hes probably in arkham

two face didnt die in the long halloween

and besides harvey dent just barely became two face

and this is just the beggining

[Sam_Cooksey]

This may have been pointed out already...I'm too lazy to go through all six pages :P

But remember Sal's line about how high up Batman was holding him, and that everyone knows you won't die from a fall like that.

Well, Maroni's fall looked to be about the same height as Harvey's fall.

Hmmm...

[Dark Jaguar]

i don't think he's dead. I think Harvey Dent is dead. But not Two-Face. I remember something in the comics along these lines. Them covering up Dent by claiming he was dead, and Bruce having him put through a failed rehabilitation.

I just think that Nolan left it open in case he does do a 3rd film (i can help resolve any issues he has with Warner. . .)

I mean, he didn't fall that far. And yes, he was badly injured to begin with, but that was on his face. It wouldn't have been as severe over the rest of his body.
And god knows the Joker could've pumped him full of a few chemicals (he's sneaky like that)...

but we never see a casket or a grave. and i didn't feel like they were definitively talking about him like he was dead. Nor do I remember hearing them say "he's dead, Jim" (pardon the star trek pun)...
It felt like they gave a memorial to Dent to cover up what he did as Two-Face.

And whoever said that it was all about the rise of the Joker, and not Two-Face... you weren't paying enough attention, i think...
It was all about Dent's rise and fall(good pun)

[StrainedEyes]

the answer to many of these questions is pretty obvious to me, two face has to be alive

hes probably in arkham

two face didnt die in the long halloween

and besides harvey dent just barely became two face

and this is just the beggining

Ok? :huh:

[TheDarkJoker]

If he survived the facial damage, why not the fall?

[StrainedEyes]

If he survived the facial damage, why not the fall?

Because burning half of your face isn't lethal? :huh: A fall from any height could kill you if you land the wrong way.

[Dark Globe]

Because burning half of your face isn't lethal? :huh: A fall from any height could kill you if you land the wrong way.
Harvey landed on his back, which is the safest way you can survive a fall. If you land on your stomach, you could severely damage your organs.

[StrainedEyes]

Harvey landed on his back, which is the safest way you can survive a fall. If you land on your stomach, you could severely damage your organs.

The spine is a very delicate area. You land on that the wrong way and you could easily be paralyzed or killed.

[Slipeor]

I think it made sense to kill him. The character was different from the classic comic book character (in a good way) and his storyline needed to be wrapped up. For those that have seen it, the speech at the very end by Gordon at the funeral and to his son were incredible moments that sent chills up everyone's spines. That would not have worked without Harvey Dent/Two-Face dying.

BUT, they can easily bring him back for a third. All the need to do is say that the fall did not kill him and to keep up his image they spirited him away to Arkham and held a phoney funeral. Then presto, you have a villain to reuse for the third move.

That said, I hope they don't. The sad thing is, we only want to see Two-Face back because we think the Joker is out of the third sequel due to the death of Heath Ledger. And really that's true. No one will ever live up to that role. They can try, but will fail.

Which leads me to my conclusion. Stop the franchise now. Christopher Nolan needs to say that this is his last Batman film and DC and Warner need to take a break from Batman for a while. This movie was perfect. It can't be topped and all it will bring is another Spider-Man 3, Godfather Part Three, Return of the Jedi, Terminator 3, etc. If you ever make a top notch sequel that meets or surpasses the original (like Spider-Man 2, Godfather Part Two, Empire Strikes Back or Terminator 2) then you should stop. They need to do this here.

It's not a question of whether or not they can bring back Don't bring back Two-Face. They can. It's a question of should they. They shouldn't. And same with the franchise. Go out on top.

[TheDarkJoker]

He might land on his head, but we're looking too much into it..

[Knightsaber Priss]

This may have been pointed out already...I'm too lazy to go through all six pages :P

But remember Sal's line about how high up Batman was holding him, and that everyone knows you won't die from a fall like that.

Well, Maroni's fall looked to be about the same height as Harvey's fall.

Hmmm...

That's what I was thinking when I saw the movie. If Maroni could survive his fall Two Face should at the very most have been knocked unconscious from that very same height.

[samsnee]

He's dead. When Batman turned his head at the end, he wasn't breathing.

[Dark Jaguar]

You can't top this movie. To try would be absurd. Instead of trying to top it, they need to finish the story. You can't end it with The Batman being seen as a villian in the public eye. It's just not a good way to leave a major hero like The Batman... You need Two-Face, the crime boss, to fix The Batman's public image.

I've been thinking about this since Tuesday. And I've finally decided The Riddler/Edward Nygma would be the perfect villian to do it.

I actually have come up with a good story idea for it... but i'm not about to post something that long here without being asked... or having a thread for it.

[Pirate Queen]

My (and my friends') theory:

The whole thing about Harvey was the Bat and Gordon trying to protect his honor- to make him seem like a hero even though he had become a villain. We think they faked his death and are keeping him somewhere (Arkham?), never to be seen again. They hope.

And hey...clearly they're not above the whole "faking someone's death" angle in this series, because they've done it twice.

[Beanjuice]

This may have been pointed out already...I'm too lazy to go through all six pages :P

But remember Sal's line about how high up Batman was holding him, and that everyone knows you won't die from a fall like that.

Well, Maroni's fall looked to be about the same height as Harvey's fall.

Hmmm...


maroni landed on his feet,dent landed o his back and head. i personally am fine with the death of two face, he did what he was supposed to do, he had a good story arc and was portrayed very well, i see no reason to bring him back

[Dr. Crane]

two face is alive....harvey is gone...nolan loves to do that in his films.. like in "the prestige".. it started off with "are you paying attention?"...
in the film itself we were told a fall from that high would not kill you. i guess a lot people only go by what they see... two-face looked dead... must be dead...
this reminds me of "the empire strikes back" in a way.... i remember being a kid and seeing that movie in the theater...and then wondering for three years if Han-solo was still alive... that was a long wait... a guess we will have a similar wait with this one..

[samsnee]

How could they hide him in Arkham without anyone knowing? Someone working there would squeal.

[Brisco]

I'll say it one more time...

HARVEY DENT IS DEAD!!!! TWO-FACE IS ALIVE!!!
Harvey flipped flop between Harvey/Big Bad Harv/Two-face. Two-Face does not flipflop... his coin does though, lol. HAVERY IS DEAD!!! TWO-FACE IS ALIVE!!! A.E. WILL BE BACK!!!
WB saw the mistake they made in killing The Joker off in 1989 - biggest boneheaded move in movie history.
WB will not be doing it again. This isn't just Nolan's universe - it's DC's/WB's money!

Besides, has it been confirmed by the cast and Nolan yet?

JDG

[Golgo-13]

I think most are right; he's alive and in Arkham. Athough, the ending made it seem as though he was dead....by way of Gordon's speech about him. I think they have just hidden him out of Gotham somewhere to get psychological help for him.

[Beanjuice]

As i said before the movie was even out..two face is gonna be venom all over again

[Brisco]

Anyone that reads the comics should know that DENT is different than TWO-FACE!

DENT is a hero, TWO-FACE is a villain! END OF STORY! GAH!

JDG

[P.F. Geraci]

Sigh.

I'm not even going to argue or anything. I think he's dead. I'm not gonna fight back and forth about it. But I do wanna say this: please stop using the coin on the ground as some kind of symbol for him still being alive. It was from the flip to decide whether or not Gordon's son lives. The reason they focused on the coin was that if Batman had just waited and not knocked him over the ledge, the son would have lived no matter what. However, after seeing what waiting and trying to do things his way got him, he reacted. He had to react and this is what happened. So no, the coin does not prove anything other than the son would have lived regardless.

[Doc Samson]

I think he's dead and I also think that's the only problem with this movie. Even though he didn't get the short end of the stick like say....I dont know... Venom maybe, he still deserved his own movie IMO. They should've just ended with the bar scene when he shows up, because honestly, unless they bring the Joker back (and if they can't get Daniel Day-Lewis to do it, they shouldn't) I dont see what other villain can work in Nolan's "vision" and still make an interesting adversary for Batman. The Joker & Two-Face are the best ones for that, the Riddler could work I guess, but he's like the Penguin, weird guys no doubt, but nowhere close as visually or mentally intricate as these two madmen we got...

[samsnee]

I can start to see why Darth Maul was cut in half at the end of the Phantom Menace.

[Beanjuice]

Anyone that reads the comics should know that DENT is different than TWO-FACE!

DENT is a hero, TWO-FACE is a villain! END OF STORY! GAH!

JDG



this has nothing to do with the comics, we are perfectly aware that he has two sides to him,but we are sure that both sides...are dead

[Voyeur]

Hmm...you know, I'm okay with the death. But I'm very intrigued by the idea he might still be alive.

[I Am The Knight]

I don't think he died at all.

[Shingato]

Harvey: Did you really think that fall would kill me? That wasn't high enough!
Batman: I counted on it.

[Visionary]

He may be a little dead...but not by much.

Great, now I've confused myself. :dry:

[Capt Throbberson]

I think they did it brilliantly. They wrote his fate in a way where they can either use him again or not without it being too predictable.

[raider34r]

Ok? :huh:


The Dark Knight was alot like Batman the long halloween (graphic novel) and in the end of the book two face is locked up in arkham

So TWO FACE IS ALIVE

this is not like the old batman movies were the villains die at the end.

I believe he's alive and if they want to bring back two face for part 3, they will.

[I Am The Knight]

He was unconscius. That's how I took it. If that was Two-Face's death, that would be lame as hell.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I think they did it brilliantly. They wrote his fate in a way where they can either use him again or not without it being too predictable.

exactly and thats the way I thought of it too after my second viewing this morning.

[Brisco]

this has nothing to do with the comics,
LOL! It doesn't?

we are perfectly aware that he has two sides to him
LOL! People are? He is no longer DENT. He is TWO-FACE.

but we are sure that both sides...are dead
Sure? Sure?! SURE?! How so?

JDG

[StrainedEyes]

The Dark Knight was alot like Batman the long halloween (graphic novel) and in the end of the book two face is locked up in arkham

So TWO FACE IS ALIVE

this is not like the old batman movies were the villains die at the end.

Umm.. Just because the films take nods from several comic sources, doesn't mean those sources are somehow the end all be all of unanswered questions.

Harvey being alive in Long Halloween means absolutely nothing in context with the movie.

[FaT_tONle]

If Nolan does a third he will explain Dent... it could be a grave scene... it could be his faked death... it could be Arkhum and a coverup... the only people who know is basically Gordon. All he has to do is dial up a few favors over at Arkhum to have him transferred there. If they do that, I think eventually the news will get out of course... but they don't necessarily have to show that. If the manhunt is going to stop the public needs to get to the bottom of the truth. See you guys can't look on it as "Oh that would spit all over TDK"... no it wouldn't... because all three movies are one story. And the story would have a new outcome at the end. They had to do what they did since the third isn't penciled in but I am confident it will happen and Two Face will be alive and have a supporting role.

[Ibn]

He's dead. Like someone pointed out earlier, he was not breathing on the ground. It's cool to be optimistic and all, but he's pretty dead I think.

[StrainedEyes]

LOL! It doesn't?


LOL! People are? He is no longer DENT. He is TWO-FACE.


Sure? Sure?! SURE?! How so?

JDG

You are aware that, if Harvey's body is paralyzed or dead, that Two-face is paralyzed or dead too right? He doesn't magically get a new body when he goes from one mind to the other. Hell, this movie didn't even go into the split personalities, so in the reality of the movie there was no break between the characters, just a guy who snapped.

[raider34r]

Umm.. Just because the films take nods from several comic sources, doesn't mean those sources are somehow the end all be all of unanswered questions.

Harvey being alive in Long Halloween means absolutely nothing in context with the movie.

yea i know but there was no funeral

so hes alive

[Venom 1988]

As i said before the movie was even out..two face is gonna be venom all over again

Except it wasent, Two-Face was done justice lolz :oldrazz:

[I Am The Knight]

Harvey Dent, the public persona is dead allright. That's what the public needs to know. He needed to die a hero so hope could shine through in the end (Poor choice of cliched words, I know) But Two-Face? I really doubt he's dead.

[StrainedEyes]

yea i know but there was no funeral

so hes alive

So what? There was no funeral for Rachel, is she still alive?

I can not believe the obsession in this thread with funerals and caskets. There are much smarter, more subtle ways to say someone is dead.

[FaT_tONle]

Well wouldn't half of Harvey Dent be dead only? I mean is he ever an outright villain anywhere? I get he is two face now but there is still Harvey on one half.

[raider34r]

Harvey Dent, the public persona is dead allright. That's what the public needs to know. He needed to die a hero so hope could shine through in the end (Poor choice of cliched words, I know) But Two-Face? I really doubt he's dead.


i agree, i really think two face is still alive

but harvey dent the hero is dead

[Brisco]

You are aware that, if Harvey's body is paralyzed or dead, that Two-face is paralyzed or dead too right? He doesn't magically get a new body when he goes from one mind to the other. Hell, this movie didn't even go into the split personalities, so in the reality of the movie there was no break between the characters. Just a guy who snapped.

If = you have doubt too.

JDG

[P.F. Geraci]

The Dark Knight was alot like Batman the long halloween (graphic novel) and in the end of the book two face is locked up in arkham

So TWO FACE IS ALIVE

this is not like the old batman movies were the villains die at the end.

I believe he's alive and if they want to bring back two face for part 3, they will.

Actually, The Dark Knight was very loosely like The Long Halloween. There were some themes like the Harvey's transformation and the mafia being intermixed with the rogues. But other than that, it's really not like it at all, the differences are quite vast. Just because Two-Face didn't die in The Long Halloween does not mean he didn't die here. This movie was not an adaptation of The Long Halloween.

[I Am The Knight]

So what? There was no funeral for Rachel, is she still alive?

I can not believe the obsession in this thread with funerals and caskets. There are much smarter, more subtle ways to say someone is dead.

She was blown to bits :huh: Dent was not.

[raider34r]

So what? There was no funeral for Rachel, is she still alive?

I can not believe the obsession in this thread with funerals and caskets. There are much smarter, more subtle ways to say someone is dead.


but rachel blew up, the building blew up into pieces, shes obviously dead

two face fell but it wasnt a bad fall, he could of survived it.

[Dark Globe]

Thinking about it, it seems pretty obvious Nolan left it open so he could figure out what to do next. Either that, or he wants to watch batman fans eat each other and lose their minds.

[StrainedEyes]

but rachel blew up, the building blew up into pieces, shes obviously dead

two face fell but it wasnt a bad fall, he could of survived it.

But we didn't see Rachel afterwards, maybe it was a trick? Since Nolan loves to trick his audience, and since there was no funeral held for her, she must be alive.

What about Lao? He was burning on top of that money, but we never saw his body afterwards, he must also be alive too, right?

You argued that Two-Face was alive because he wasn't in a casket and didn't have a funeral. I am just pointing out how ridiculous of an argument that is.

[I Am The Knight]

It was open ended. And they can get very creative with it for the next one if they want to.

[raider34r]

Actually, The Dark Knight was very loosely like The Long Halloween. There were some themes like the Harvey's transformation and the mafia being intermixed with the rogues. But other than that, it's really not like it at all, the differences are quite vast. Just because Two-Face didn't die in The Long Halloween does not mean he didn't die here. This movie was not an adaptation of The Long Halloween.

yes i know the dark knight isnt really an adaption of the long halloween. The long halloween had several villains like poison ivy,catwoman, but the dark knight really reminded me of that book, but i just think its too early in the series to kill off two-face just like its too early to kill off the joker

[StrainedEyes]

If = you have doubt too.

JDG

I was talking about the character of Two-Face, from the comics.

[MattBearPig]

I really hope Two-Face isn't dead. If he is 100% dead, this will be my only gripe with the film.

[Dark Globe]

There were a bunch of lines took from TLH. Also, there were a couple ideas took from TMWL and the first batman comic.

[StrainedEyes]

yes i know the dark knight isnt really an adaption of the long halloween. The long halloween had several villains like poison ivy,catwoman, but the dark knight really reminded me of that book, but i just think its too early in the series to kill off two-face just like its too early to kill off the joker

The series? Just how many movies are you expecting to be made?
Green Goblin 1 and 2, Doc Ock, and Venom were all killed off in the Spider-man franchise. You act like it's an impossible thing to do.

[samsnee]

In my opinion, while there are definitely plot points left open for another sequel (the Joker card in BB, Batman on the run in TDK), Nolan doesn't seem like the type to leave something so ambiguous. I know he did that in Memento, but this movie seemed to be as much about the rise and fall of Harvey Dent as it was Batman vs. the Joker. And from a storytelling perspective, it makes more sense to have the rise and fall of a character end in his death, and not something so ambiguous.

[Voyeur]

I wonder how they're gonna get Batman off the hook for Dent's murders!

[jmc]

Dent's dead guys, time accept it and to move on.

[StrainedEyes]

I wonder how they're gonna get Batman off the hook for Dent's murders!

Batman wants to be responsible for Dent's murder. To get people to fear him, to think he's capable of anything.

[P.F. Geraci]

Okay, imagine everyone's standing on the street. And there's an airplane about to pass over everyone's heads. Now imagine that airplane is the purpose of the end of The Dark Knight. Woosh! This is seemingly what has happened here.

[FaT_tONle]

Dent's dead guys, time accept it and to move on.

Can we accept that we need to wait at least another three years to reserve judgement? Seriously for every fanboy that wants characters back there is a fanboy that insists they are dead. These type of comments get us no where.

[raider34r]

But we didn't see Rachel afterwards, maybe it was a trick? Since Nolan loves to trick his audience, and since there was no funeral held for her, she must be alive.

What about Lao? He was burning on top of that money, but we never saw his body afterwards, he must also be alive too, right?

You argued that Two-Face was alive because he wasn't in a casket and didn't have a funeral. I am just pointing out how ridiculous of an argument that is.


rachel dawes was blowned up, shes dead.


just like VENOM from SM3, he was blowned up, hes dead.

two face was not blowned up, he is still in ONE PIECE and i think he could of easily survived the fall therefore i think hes alive but the public thinks harvey dent is dead.

[StrainedEyes]

rachel dawes was blowned up, shes dead.


just like VENOM from SM3, he was blowned up, hes dead.

two face was not blowned up, he is still in ONE PIECE and i think he could of easily survived the fall therefore i think hes alive but the public thinks harvey dent is dead.

Blowned up? How old are you?

[P.F. Geraci]

Blowned up? How old are you?

Was wondering myself.

[Dark Globe]

Dent's dead guys, time accept it and to move on.
Your arrogance is showing.

[jmc]

Your arrogance is showing.

No, just my logic, he was clearly dead.

Can we accept that we need to wait at least another three years to reserve judgement? Seriously for every fanboy that wants characters back there is a fanboy that insists they are dead. These type of comments get us no where.

Can't we accept that that Dent's death had a point? And FYI I'm no fanboy.

[I Am The Knight]

I will not accept his death. I wont! Two-Face is my favorite Batman villain... :csad:

Well, even if he's dead, I'm satisfied with what we got from the character (for now) But I don't think he's dead...Call me delusional if you will. I guess I just need to see him really dead to accept it. :oldrazz:

[raider34r]

The series? Just how many movies are you expecting to be made?
Green Goblin 1 and 2, Doc Ock, and Venom were all killed off in the Spider-man franchise. You act like it's an impossible thing to do.


the nolan series is not like burton/schumacher series
were the joker died in the first movie, penguin in the second, and two face in the third

the first movie of the nolan series was Batman BEGINS, keyword BEGINS

so batman is still YOUNG in the dark knight, the joker is young in the the dark knight and harvey dent was the NEW D.A in the beggining of the movie. im not saying its impossible, what im trying to say is it doesnt make sense to kill off some vilains this early

[StrainedEyes]

Ok, IF Harvey Dent was alive, and both Gordon and Batman knew this. Why did they show absolutely no concern for an obviously severely injured and unconscious friend laying in the dirt? There barely paid him any attention.

Don't you think, if they wanted to keep him alive and hide him, they would have at least made sure he was ok? All they did was turn his head before Gordon monologued and Batman ran away.

[I Am The Knight]

If Two-Face is dead, doesn't that mean Batman broke his "one rule" ? Which was a big plot point during the movie?

Of course, you could say the same about the monorail situation in BB, but just for argument's sake...

[StrainedEyes]

the nolan series is not like burton/schumacher series
were the joker died in the first movie, penguin in the second, and two face in the third

the first movie of the nolan series was Batman BEGINS, keyword BEGINS

so batman is still YOUNG in the dark knight, the joker is young in the the dark knight and harvey dent was the NEW D.A in the beggining of the movie. im not saying its impossible, what im trying to say is it doesnt make sense to kill off some vilains this early

That means nothing. Batman Begins is a new series, but that doesn't give the villains immunity from being killed off. This series will have one more movie, maybe 2 if they stretch it. It's not like this will go on forever. Harvey only being in one movie is entirely possible.

[Dark Globe]

No, just my logic, he was clearly dead.


How the hell was he clearly dead? He suffered from one of lowest falls in the history of batman films and he's automatically dead?

[raider34r]

Ok, IF Harvey Dent was alive, and both Gordon and Batman knew this. Why did they show absolutely no concern for an obviously severely injured and unconscious friend laying in the dirt? There barely paid him any attention.

Don't you think, if they wanted to keep him alive and hide him, they would have at least made sure he was ok? All they did was turn his head before Gordon monologued and Batman ran away.


well gordon was probably worried about his son and batman fell as well , but look i just think two face could of easily survived the fall, he didnt fall from the 50th floor of a tall building, the fall was not that bad

[StrainedEyes]

well gordon was probably worried about his son and batman fell as well , but look i just think two face could of easily survived the fall, he didnt fall from the 50th floor of a tall building, the fall was not that bad

ANY fall can be bad. It's all about how you land.

[Dark Globe]

You see, this is what Nolan wanted. He wanted fans fighting about it. He knew this would happen! Nolan, you bastard! You set us up! Did you get this idea from the Joker!?!?!?

[FaT_tONle]

Can't we accept that that Dent's death had a point? And FYI I'm no fanboy.

So what? Maybe Nolan feels the story is not complete and he reworks it in the next film to prove Batman's innocence. As of now he is presumed dead I'll give you that. But it's still open to speculation. So I don't think it's fair to be telling people to move on when there is no clear evidence accept a theme that may have played itself out only to be changed in the future.

[raider34r]

How the hell was he clearly dead? He suffered from one of lowest falls in the history of batman films and he's automatically dead?


THATS THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE!!!!!


THATS WHY I THINK TWO FACE IS ALIVE

[Voyeur]

Well, I think it's kinda fun to leave the idea open that Dent may be alive. I mean, why so serious about this anyway?

I can't remember, does anyone besides Gordon's inner circle and Maroni even know that Dent survived the hospital bombing?

[SHHSFW]

Look folks, the answer lies in 2 very careful and conscious decisions made by Nolan when dealing with Dent's fall:

1) The good eye was closed. Simple rule as a filmmaker - you wanna show a dead body and let people know he's good and dead? Keep the unblinking, open eye. Nolan chose to have Harvey's eye closed. If he wanted to say "look he's dead" he would've had the dead stare going on.

2) Gordon's line about not being able to let the city's hope (or something) die with Dent's reputation (or something) was carefully written. Notice he didn't say that the city's hope can't die WITH DENT. If you think about it, the line naturally flows "Gotham's hope cannot die with Dent", so why the careful inclusion of something else that had died?

Really the first point is stronger of the two but my guess is Nolan wanted to leave himself some wiggle room.

[I Am The Knight]

ANY fall can be bad. It's all about how you land.

So, he could be alive.

Ah...The Joker would approve of these kind of debates.

[jmc]

So what? Maybe Nolan feels the story is not complete and he reworks it in the next film to prove Batman's innocence. As of now he is presumed dead I'll give you that. But it's still open to speculation. So I don't think it's fair to be telling people to move on when there is no clear evidence accept a theme that may have played itself out only to be changed in the future.

So Gordon speaking at what was clearly a memorial service isn't proof enough? Rachel's body was never found, maybe she somehow survived. Or maybe the guy who Joker did the pencil trick survived, I mean we didn't see him lie dead on the floor, maybe he survived too. I honestly can't see how people can see Dent is still alive, people can't be that blinded by their love of Two Face.

[Ruseri]

True that they didn't really check the body.. didn't even feel his pulse or anything. if they were concerned he was dead, this seems like something they would do. perhaps they saw that he was breathing, and didn't bother to worry all that much since, for one, Batman seemed fine after taking the same fall, and two, Harvey had just toyed with the idea of murdering Gordon's child. Not something that would generate much sympathy for someone's well-being.

I'm not saying he's alive, and I'm not saying he's dead. This does seem almost purposefully set up to have either option available for whatever they decide to do with the inevitable sequel, though. If they decide they want to use Harvey again, it wouldn't be much of a stretch. If they decide not to, they can just leave him "dead" where a lot of people assume he is. I must say, though, that the general public seems just as mixed as any fans I've heard squabbling about this. It is certainly not a definite "yes" or "no" kind of question, because for every random jo I heard jumping to the conclusion that Harvey was dead, there was another who simply assumed he'd be alive in the sequel. Arguing about it now is moot. We will all just have to be patient and wait to see what direction Christopher Nolan (assuming he returns--and I pray he does) takes his masterfully crafted universe in next.

[Taiwarriorz21]

Here's how I see it....When Joker wanted Batman to take off his mask in the public Harvey took the blame as the so called "batman" to keep wayne hidden. it makes total sense that wayne and gordon wanted to keep Harvey's downfall on the down low, so Gotham wouldn't become unstable due to the fact that their "white knight" was weak falling victim to a mad clown's test on him. think about it. it's just way too easy of a death and a villain like Two-Face isn't going to go down like that. Harvey is lost, but Two-Face has surfaced he's prolly lockup in a secret part on arkham away from the rest of the criminally insane, just like the joker is as well. both under tight guard awaiting their freedom from their bound imprisonment.

[StrainedEyes]

2) Gordon's line about not being able to let the city's hope (or something) die with Dent's reputation (or something) was carefully written. Notice he didn't say that the city's hope can't die WITH DENT. If you think about it, the line naturally flows "Gotham's hope cannot die with Dent", so why the careful inclusion of something else that had died?


Because Gotham's hope won't die with Dent, it will die if anyone finds out what he became when he died.

[FaT_tONle]

So Gordon speaking at what was clearly a memorial service isn't proof enough? Rachel's body was never found, maybe she somehow survived. Or maybe the guy who Joker did the pencil trick survived, I mean we didn't see him lie dead on the floor, maybe he survived too. I honestly can't see how people can see Dent is still alive, people can't be that blinded by their love of Two Face.

Stop throwing Rachel into this mess and all these other pointless examples... it has nothing to do with Dent's "death". But secondly... WE DON'T KNOW if that memorial service is not a staged event for a cover up... which was already done with Gordon of all people. So stop... maybe you aren't reading me correctly... as of now... Dent is PRESUMED dead... just like Jack Sparrow... but if Nolan wants to bring him back he can bring him back in a heart beat.

[NinjaTurtleFan]

It makes sense to kill him off in the sense that Dent is alot like a Greecian or Shakespearean tragedy. Here you have a guy who could've really saved Gotham without donning a mask, yet he gets disfigured, Joker messes with his psychosis, and with already obtaining the coin and putting things to chance---he ultimately became what he sought out to destroy: a criminal, a no-down dirty villain.

I'm sad and disappointed that he had to die because I would've loved to see him in appear in a future sequel in a black and white double-breasted suit but if he is dead than bring on Riddler or someone new.

[Browncoat]

Not going to get into any debate (because it's pointless, plain and simple...the movie is what it is, and all we're left with is whether we like it or not, not a "well, he could still be alive if..." scenario). I'm a big Two-Face fan...he was my favorite Bat-villain until I got old enough to read "The Killing Joke." It's too bad we won't see him again, but I'm very satisfied with his role in The Dark Knight and in his place in Nolan's version of the Batman mythos.

[StrainedEyes]

Stop throwing Rachel into this mess and all these other pointless examples... it has nothing to do with Dent's "death". But secondly... WE DON'T KNOW if that memorial service is not a staged event for a cover up... which was already done with Gordon of all people. So stop... maybe you aren't reading me correctly... as of now... Dent is PRESUMED dead... just like Jack Sparrow... but if Nolan wants to bring him back he can bring him back in a heart beat.

To a groaning general audience who would think Nolan is running out of Batman ideas, so he has to pull a fake death to bring back a character most people presume to be long gone.

[StrainedEyes]

"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
Harvey was able to experience both. He lived to become a villain but died a hero. It's the perfect end to the character.

[FaT_tONle]

To a groaning general audience who would think Nolan is running out of Batman ideas, so he has to pull a fake death to bring back a character most people presume to be long gone.

All I am saying is that if he's making a third he won't let the ambiguous ending continue... close the arc... show a grave or something. Something like that will be done to definitively close the book. The third film will have a mention of Dent's fate if Nolan eventually makes it. He's too important a character to completely ignore.

[Ruseri]

To a groaning general audience who would think Nolan is running out of Batman ideas, so he has to pull a fake death to bring back a character most people presume to be long gone.

No need for the snide remarks, especially since you're speaking for a large group of people you have no right to speak for. A lot of the average joes I've spoken with about the movie, thus far, assume he's still alive. It just depends on how you look at it. Obviously, you believe he's dead, clear as day. It's not so black and white to others. To me, the situation seems carefully crafted, in order to leave some options open in case they do decide to use the character again.

[jmc]

Stop throwing Rachel into this mess and all these other pointless examples... it has nothing to do with Dent's "death". But secondly... WE DON'T KNOW if that memorial service is not a staged event for a cover up... which was already done with Gordon of all people. So stop... maybe you aren't reading me correctly... as of now... Dent is PRESUMED dead... just like Jack Sparrow... but if Nolan wants to bring him back he can bring him back in a heart beat.

Stage memorial service? For what reason? Dent was a tragic character who's story arc resulted in how all tragic characters end, his death had reason. People really are clutching at straws here, it's more out of hope than anything else.

[Beaverific]

Nolan left it open for a reason... With the Heath Ledger dead, they can't bring back the Joker very easily, and we're kind of running out of "realistic" villains in the Batman universe. If he needs/wants Two-Face for a third movie, he could "resurrect" him without much effort. If he doesn't, then he could just as easily say he died. Nothing is what it seems throughout the movie. So why is it so hard to believe that he could be alive? All this ambiguity was planned from the start... That's what I got out of it anyway.

[StrainedEyes]

No need for the snide remarks, especially since you're speaking for a large group of people you have no right to speak for. A lot of the average joes I've spoken with about the movie, thus far, assume he's still alive. It just depends on how you look at it. Obviously, you believe he's dead, clear as day. It's not so black and white to others. To me, the situation seems carefully crafted, in order to leave some options open in case they do decide to use the character again.

I'd love to see those surveys.

[Mr. Joker]

I doubt that he's dead, he's probably going to pop up in the third movie as a bigger villain.

Does anyone have pics of Two-Face?

[P.F. Geraci]

Stage memorial service? For what reason? Dent was a tragic character who's story arc resulted in how all tragic characters end, his death had reason. People really are clutching at straws here, it's more out of hope than anything else.

Thank you. Thank you. A lot of people are using "Oh but he wouldn't kill The Joker, why would he kill Two-Face?" as an excuse. For starters, it's not like he maliciously killed Two-Face, it was more like a split decision to save the kid and it resulted in Two-Face taking the plunge. And when it all comes down to it, it's arc, just like you said. Nolan said from the start that The Joker had no story arc (so his death really wouldn't be necessary) and Harvey had a tragic story arc. While I wish he didn't have to die, I believe in the end it was pertinent to the story and the reason why Harvey was "the back-bone of the film."

[FCEEVIPER]

I like to believe that Gordon and his men covered it up, and Harvey is in Arkham under the name of John Doe.

But that's just me.

[NinjaTurtleFan]

Thank you. Thank you. A lot of people are using "Oh but he wouldn't kill The Joker, why would he kill Two-Face?" as an excuse. For starters, it's not like he maliciously killed Two-Face, it was more like a split decision to save the kid and it resulted in Two-Face taking the plunge. And when it all comes down to it, it's arc, just like you said. Nolan said from the start that The Joker had no story arc (so his death really wouldn't be necessary) and Harvey had a tragic story arc. While I wish he didn't have to die, I believe in the end it was pertinent to the story and the reason why Harvey was "the back-bone of the film."

Agreed with everything you said.

[Ruseri]

I'd love to see those surveys.

Once again, no need for the (implied) tone. I heard people talking and I duscussed it with people I know. A lot of them think he is alive, as clearly as you believe he's dead. It was general speculation, not an organized survey of opinions. Everyone sees things differently, and there's no reason to get your panties in a bunch if people disagree with you. Your opinion is no more guaranteed than anyone else's.