Nolan's Villian Formula = Next Villains

[timwang2k]

So after watching TDK I noticed that Nolan has a "formula" for the villains he uses. In BB it was Ra's and ScareCrow. Ra's was the primary villain, a man who commited himself to cause bigger than him, like Batman. He wanted to end the moral decay in humanity. This cause came into direct conflict with Batman when he tried to destroy Gotham city, the same city that Batman was trying to save from corruption. Scarecrow was the secondary villain working with Ra's for power or money, but his aspirations were selfish and simple.

In TDK there was Joker and Two-Face. Joker was the primary villain and once again tried to be something more than just a man, like Batman. He was a self described agent of chaos. This was in direct conflict with Batman's goal of bringing order to Gotham. Two-Face was the secondary villain and his motives were selfish like ScareCrow's, he was out for revenge.

Looking at Nolan's formula, who will be the next primary villain? Who , like Batman, has goals that extend beyond him/herself? What villain can be cast as a symbol? What about secondary villain?


***Note: This thread isn't for ideas on who you think should be the next villains, we have enough of those already. This is a thread for sounding off on who you think Nolan will use considering his previous choices and how they relate to the formula above.

[timwang2k]

I'll bite. In another thread CryticOne hypothesizes that Batman himself will be the next villain...

Look at it like this, who did we know was going to be the villian in TDK at the end of Begins? The Joker.

Now, at the end of TDK, who was the "villain?" Batman.

Him against the city of Gotham. We don't need a villain like The Riddler, Catwoman, Clayface, or any other to headline the third movie.


I think the idea of Batman being the villain is sound. Looking at it like this it does parallel the end of the first movie with Gordan and Bats on the rooftop. But I would like to expand upon CrypticOne's idea.

Batman's questionable acts presented in TDK (the Brother Eye/cell phone thing) show that he is capable of going to extremes he never imagined. If the idea of escalation is continued then Batman will only be doomed to temporarily suspending his ethical code again. By the time we next see Batman he could've been tested and pushed for so long that he no longer notices that he is becoming more and more like the villains he faces. Hell, who knows how he's gonna hold up now that Rachel is gone?

In this sense I believe that Batman's primary source of conflict would be himself as CrypticOne describes. He will be fighting his own actions, thoughts, and motivations. If Batman is used as a villain he would fit into Nolan's primary villain role, since he would be the one who symbolizes something bigger than himself. Perhaps the Batman we see next would symbolize order at the cost of freedoms, privacy, etr? In fact now that I think about it, his whole plan to scare criminals is now gonna be turned into him scaring everybody.

The only problem I see with this is that Batman v. Batman is internal conflict. Internal Conflict being the primary source of conflict is fine for a drama, but not an action oriented movie.

I do agree with CrypticOne's idea that Gotham will be a source of conflict, I think the city could serve as the secondary antagonist.

[CrypticOne]

I like the thread.

Well, having Batman as the "villain" in the third movie, is the only way I can see the third movie being made. After having The Joker explode in TDK, what villain would be able to top his actions and Heath's performance? No one. And no villain. The Joker is Batman's yang to his ying.

Now Batman would still be a hero, just not in the public's eyes. Everybody would hate him and the cops will, now more than ever, be after him. That'd be the top priorty in Gotham. Capture the Batman.

The mob would be the secondary villain, from where I stand. And Batman will be wanting to put them down for good.

By the end of the third movie, Batman would be seen as Gotham's Knight.

[christpunchers]

Kevin Spacey as the Riddler!

[Venom 1988]

Kevin Spacey as the Riddler!

I don't think you got the point of this thread....>_>

[timwang2k]

After having The Joker explode in TDK, what villain would be able to top his actions and Heath's performance? No one.

Yes, we might be going back to Begins where it was really Batman centric. I almost feel bad that Joker was used in the second act of the trilogy instead of the final one. But I think that must mean that Nolan has an even bigger threat in store for the caped crusader....


Now Batman would still be a hero, just not in the public's eyes. Everybody would hate him and the cops will, now more than ever, be after him.

I think Batman would still be the hero, I just think that also Batman would be a threat to himself. For part 3 we need the biggest threat Batman is going to face, and I think that title belongs to Batman himself. These threat could be paranoia, the distrust of those who are close to him, the ability to go as far as he needs to fight evil (save for the one rule). A darker Batman also fits the bill for Nolan's preference of a villain whose goals extend beyond himself.

I don't want to compare this movie with Empire Strikes Back like I've seen some people do, but I do see the potential and foreshadowing for Batman to go down a darker path like Luke and find himself looking more and more like the criminals he's sworn to fight against.


The mob would be the secondary villain, from where I stand.

I'm sure the mob will be in there once again. hmmm...

hmmm....so for you it's
Batman vs Gotham and
Batman vs Mob?

For me it's
Batman vs Batman and
Batman vs Gotham

Gotham would be represented by the police and para-military units as well as the citizens. They would be acting out of fear and necessity to bring Batman to justice. These goals fall close to Two-Face and ScareCrow's in that they are relatively simple in nature, their mission is accomplished once Batman is behind bars.

Although the mob does meet Nolan's requirements for a secondary villain, my concern is that the mob would not offer enough of a challenge for Batman, and would be somewhat old hat since Nolan's used them twice already. Also I think there needs to be some kind of face for the mob, someone who is synonymous with organized crime in Gotham.

Thanks for stopping by!

[batboy99]

Batman being a ''villain'' to the rest of the city sounds good. But i dont think that should go on for the whole movie. Batman needs of villain of his own. so it will basically be Gotham vs Batman vs The villain

And i like the whole Nolan formula thing. And riddler would fit right in. He would be the scarecrow/two face. Maybe he can set up riddles for batman and every riddle, he gets one step closer to revealing who Batman really is. He can do this for his own selfishness maybe trying to make himself ''famous'' per say. Becoming a famous name to the people of gotham because he revealed batmans identity and he is no longer frowned upon or ''bullied'' the way he was before he became the riddler. Maybe when he was just Edward Nygma, alot like BF, he would come up with crazy ideas, but no one believed they would work and/ or just thought he was crazy...

[CrypticOne]

I'm actually glad The Joker was used in TDK. The story Nolan is telling, he would need a character like The Joker, in TDK. To really test Batman's limits, and now Batman knows his limits. Now Batman is The Dark Knight we all know.

I really don't think Bruce/Batman would be a threat to himself. You're forgetting one character that makes Bruce stay in the line, and that is Alfred. Plus, Bruce will be looking for ways to make Batman be loved by Gotham in this next movie, a way to clear Batman's name.

Well, in the third movie, I think Batman will face all of Gotham, cops, the mob, the general public wanting him captured.

The mob, still has a face, Sal Maroni.

Assuming that he isn't dead.

I just think the mob is a big part of Nolan's Batman and his story.

[batboy99]

He isnt, it didnt show anything to show that he might have died anyways.

[CrypticOne]

Batman being a ''villain'' to the rest of the city sounds good. But i dont think that should go on for the whole movie. Batman needs of villain of his own. so it will basically be Gotham vs Batman vs The villain

And i like the whole Nolan formula thing. And riddler would fit right in. He would be the scarecrow/two face. Maybe he can set up riddles for batman and every riddle, he gets one step closer to revealing who Batman really is. He can do this for his own selfishness maybe trying to make himself ''famous'' per say. Becoming a famous name to the people of gotham because he revealed batmans identity and he is no longer frowned upon or ''bullied'' the way he was before he became the riddler. Maybe when he was just Edward Nygma, alot like BF, he would come up with crazy ideas, but no one believed they would work and/ or just thought he was crazy...

Why does Batman need a villain like The Riddler though? Don't get me wrong, he is a great character, but in the Nolan universe and what has happened in Begins and TDK, I just don't see Nolan adding another villain.

[CrypticOne]

He isnt, it didnt show anything to show that he might have died anyways.

Did you miss the car crash?

[timwang2k]

And i like the whole Nolan formula thing. And riddler would fit right in. He would be the scarecrow/two face. Maybe he can set up riddles for batman and every riddle, he gets one step closer to revealing who Batman really is. He can do this for his own selfishness maybe trying to make himself ''famous'' per say. Becoming a famous name to the people of gotham because he revealed batmans identity and he is no longer frowned upon or ''bullied'' the way he was before he became the riddler. Maybe when he was just Edward Nygma, alot like BF, he would come up with crazy ideas, but no one believed they would work and/ or just thought he was crazy...

I don't see how the riddles bring riddler one step closer to Batman's identity. Although I think it would be interesting if Riddler figured out Batman's secret and he broadcasted his Riddles to everyone so that with each riddle solved the public would come closer and closer to knowing the truth. And of course at the same time he would be screwing with Batman.

Yeah, I definitely agree that Riddler isn't capable of being the main villain. Him wanting to outsmart Batman just isn't enough.

[Venom 1988]

Yes, we might be going back to Begins where it was really Batman centric. I almost feel bad that Joker was used in the second act of the trilogy instead of the final one. But I think that must mean that Nolan has an even bigger threat in store for the caped crusader.... I agree because this way we could see the city evolved into a totally new character. And I'm actually glad Joker was used in the "second act" of the trilogy. Why? because if the next movie is indeed Batman centric, the Joker could be seen as the transition between the old Gotham and the new Freak Gotham.

[timwang2k]

I really don't think Bruce/Batman would be a threat to himself. You're forgetting one character that makes Bruce stay in the line, and that is Alfred. Plus, Bruce will be looking for ways to make Batman be loved by Gotham in this next movie, a way to clear Batman's name.

Yes, Alfred is a rock in Bruce's life. At this point I think he is the ONLY thing in the movies that is keeping him sane (or close enough to sane). But that's putting a big burden on Alfred's shoulders and frankly he needs something else because Alfred won't be around forever. I have to wonder what kind of ramifications will Rachel's death have in Bruce's life beside just not having a love interest.



I just think the mob is a big part of Nolan's Batman and his story.

Me too. I want the mob to still be around, but I'd prefer at the level of TDK where they weren't a major enemy in the movie.

[FaT_tONle]

I don't think Riddler would work in that Batman won't be working with the cops and only with Gordon... not that he works with police... but he can't even share a scene with cops at a crime scene involving the Riddler... that's a problem. The guy is wanted for MURDER... I find it hard to believe that he is tracking down the city's most cunning villains without coming into contact with law enforcement. On the otherhand... Catwoman would work because Batman wouldn't be trying to bring her down necessarily. Plus I don't want a throw away love interest like Vickie Vale or someone. Catwoman still makes perfect sense even if she's the main villain. The primary conflict however is the mob getting stronger while Batman tries to regain the city's trust. I could live with a bunch of villains that are hitmen for the mob. I wouldn't mind if the mob along with hired guns were the main threat. No need for Riddler unless they write him in as the mob's new mastermind... which doesn't fit the bill for his character.

[batboy99]

Did you miss the car crash?
oh ya, forgot about that
Why does Batman need a villain like The Riddler though? Don't get me wrong, he is a great character, but in the Nolan universe and what has happened in Begins and TDK, I just don't see Nolan adding another villain.it coul work. Maybe not as the main villain, but i think the riddler would bring something really cool to the table

I don't see how the riddles bring riddler one step closer to Batman's identity. Although I think it would be interesting if Riddler figured out Batman's secret and he broadcasted his Riddles to everyone so that with each riddle solved the public would come closer and closer to knowing the truth. And of course at the same time he would be screwing with Batman.

Yeah, I definitely agree that Riddler isn't capable of being the main villain. Him wanting to outsmart Batman just isn't enough.no, no. Not riddler getting one step closer to knowing batmans identity. I would do it that he already knows batmans identity(dont know if he would know if it was the right person tho) and he would have these riddles broadcast on tv like you said, and with every riddle, the riddler gets one step closer to revealing batmans identity to the public.

[TLH]

Batman as the villain is fine and I see what is being driven at with this idea. However, you need a villain to draw people in. Batman Begins was a fantastic film, but you can't revert back to a film that only features Batman...it's a regress.

You at least need SOME villain in the third that provides some cool action sequences or a plot line. I have never seen a superhero film without a villain before, and much as the idea is original and truly interesting, I don't think one would hold up without a villain.

[He-Man]

There is going to be a villain. No villain = Superman Returns. The idea of Batman vs the mob and just trying to clear his name isn't going to do it. There has to be a primary antagonist.
Not a knock on SR but people wanted to see more than Supes flying around saving people.
People will want to see more than Batman vs avereage job mobster and trying to clear his name.

[giggs11uk]

I like IGN.com's idea of having the Riddler work with the police to bring down batman

This gives u the Batman vs. Batman inner conflict and the Batman vs. Gotham external conflict and it also gives WB a villain to promote without compromising the story

[Brian2887]

The beloved philanthropist Roman Sionis can be the villain.

Batman is hated, hunted. What could turn Gotham on him even more than going after the city's favorite son?

Sionis could be what people wish Bruce Wayne was. He's wealthy, but he uses his money to help Gotham, not bed a troupe of Russian ballet dancers. But, of course, behind the scenes, Sionis rules Gotham's underbelly as Black Mask.

Meanwhile, Selina Kyle is out for vengeance on the mob and Sionis, taking their money, maybe even killing them. Her cat burglar persona could be a test for Batman on his limits. Why is he still being a hero when he's despised. Like Catwoman, he could use his skills for personal gain. She's a temptation on many different levels.

In the end, of course, Batman keeps his standards and reveals Sionis to be a villain. Batman / Bruce Wayne is redeemed.

[Juggernaut423]

Options for the next film that I think all could be viable with Batman turning into a wanted vigilante

#1: Traditional Penguin Mobster + hired hitman (Bane / Deadshot)
#2: Holiday Killer for more Two-Face material.
#3: Talia al Ghul and Lady Shiva for Ra's al Ghul material
#4: Black Mask (mobster introduction)
#5: Hush
#6: The Riddler
#7: The Red Hood
#8: Hugo Strange (Bruce Wayne gets therapy and sets up his intro)

[66 Face]

Something that I was really hoping for was for the 3rd film to be about Two Face. There's just so much that can be done with that character.

Another thing that I would love to see covered would be for the Joker to go on trial and be given the death sentance. I would love to see Batmans reaction to that.

Also maybe The Penguin can come to Gothem and kind of group together the broken pieces of the mob. Unifying them and making them stronger while attacking Wayne Industries and Bruce Wayne.

All I really know is that I want to see a community of villians instead of the "your turn" merry-go-round.

[giggs11uk]

this thread is getting off topic

[CrypticOne]

Batman as the villain is fine and I see what is being driven at with this idea. However, you need a villain to draw people in. Batman Begins was a fantastic film, but you can't revert back to a film that only features Batman...it's a regress.

You at least need SOME villain in the third that provides some cool action sequences or a plot line. I have never seen a superhero film without a villain before, and much as the idea is original and truly interesting, I don't think one would hold up without a villain.

Good point.

You see, people these days don't have the attention span to just deal with a great, amazing story. They need a villain.

If there is a villain in BB3, the only thing I see working is Two Face. You can't just throw Catwoman, The Riddler in. How can they fit into Nolan's real ongoing story? People really need to watch Batman Begins and The Dark Knight and really understand these movies. This is Batman's story. His beginning. His transformation into Gotham's Knight. His tear through organized crime. His rebuilding of Gotham.

[CrypticOne]

There is going to be a villain. No villain = Superman Returns. The idea of Batman vs the mob and just trying to clear his name isn't going to do it. There has to be a primary antagonist.
Not a knock on SR but people wanted to see more than Supes flying around saving people.
People will want to see more than Batman vs avereage job mobster and trying to clear his name.

Not true. You can do it, you just have to do it right. Singer didn't do it right.

Plus, you're dealing with a genius like Nolan.

[amazingfantasy15]

I could see Riddler as a good villian, but not in the normal sense. I'd like to see him trying to figure out what exactly happened with Harvey Dent, which brings Batman into the conflict to protect his and Gordon's "secret", that would be a secondary villian. We could also have Catwoman as the temptation to go further with Batman as an outcast. Then the main villian of Bane, Bane comes to Gotham realizing with all the mobs being in disarray that he can basically take over Gotham's underworld. It stays with the same idea of Batman trying to save Gotham, only this time the villian wants to rule it, not destroy it.

[giggs11uk]

This topic is supposed to be about the countinuation of Nolans formula

1. A Villain with a purpose greater than his self
2. A Villain with selfish motivations

Try and keep your posts relevant to this idea

[ross2287]

Batman vs. Himself would be hard to market, methinks.

[Gotham22]

I say Catwoman. I havent seen the TDK yet but what i have read it seems it doesnt end good for Batman and Catwoman who's another vigilante is sort of the opposite of him.

[giggs11uk]

I say Catwoman. I havent seen the TDK yet but what i have read it seems it doesnt end good for Batman and Catwoman who's another vigilante is sort of the opposite of him.

There are other threads for that type of speculation

Like I said before this thread is about the countinuation of Nolan's formula

1. Villain with motives larger then him self
2. Villain with a selfish motivation

With that being said I believe that this would be the best approach for a sequel

1. The Riddler: He should be working with the police to discover Batmans identity. His motives are greater than his self he wants to save Gotham by taking down the Bat but he doesnt have the same moral compass as Batman and his obsession ends up hurting the citizens he is trying to protect
2. Catwoman: She only cares about herself and she seeks thrills such as stealing from the wealthy and running into the Batman

[Tel Aviv]

It's an interesting idea to have a city and it's many factions turn on a single man. It's like Fritz Lang's M... without so much of the child killing.

[ThatDamnNinja]

The third movie needs villains, and you guys are crazy if you think they're not going to have a villain.

They need one because Batman needs to redeem himself somehow. He needs to become a symbol of hope again and get the city behind him, and he can't do that without an opponent.

Regarding the formula, the villain with a higher principle, and I do think we need one, because a main villain just pursuing selfish ends wouldn't carry the dramatic weight of Joker or Ra's, is going to be the toughie.

For the selfish villain, I'd throw the names of Riddler or Hush into the ring. I'd say Riddler and Hush if one of them can be given that greater dramatic weight, and more specifically, can be the threat to the public necessary to allow Batman to return to a position as its protector.

[FaT_tONle]

1. The Riddler: He should be working with the police to discover Batmans identity. His motives are greater than his self he wants to save Gotham by taking down the Bat but he doesnt have the same moral compass as Batman and his obsession ends up hurting the citizens he is trying to protect
2. Catwoman: She only cares about herself and she seeks thrills such as stealing from the wealthy and running into the Batman

I don't know where you read this idea again... IGN or whereever... but it's trash straight from that type of source. I mean you go that route and it's Harvey Dent part 2.... REALLY original thinking on their part. Either way... if the guy is going to be a contributor and advisor for the mob then he's another Joker... if you go the route you laid out he's pretyt much Harvey Dent. Obviously there would be differences but it doesn't really matter because a rehash is a rehash. The problem is the mob is virtually NO THREAT to Batman at this point. I mean Sionis would be a good fit story wise but you'd be developing a villain and wasting a movie on a villain no one really cares about. Catwoman is a must IMO. But the main villain... I am just leaning towards a mob boss and hitmen to be honest. No villain compares to the Joker anyhow. I'll have to get back to you.

[DieSmiling]

I just don't necessarily buy into the "formula" presented in this thread. I think it could end up going in an entirely different direction than two villains, one with a greater purpose and one with selfish motivations.

In fact, I think that the transition to "freak Gotham" will be cemented and we'll see lots of cameos and smaller villain roles... I think it's possible we won't even get one centerpiece primary antagonist like the Joker... Let's be honest, NO one villain they can use could ever top Joker... But awesome performances in smaller roles by many rouges could be really cool and intriguing.

[Mako]

1 .the reaper- he's there to bring down batman for killing Harvey and the cops , he's willing to break batmans one rule to rid the city of criminals , it would awesome be a
Good conflict for Bruce seeing another vigilante willing to cross the line to bring gth back.

2.Catwoman -not sure yet as far as story but the studio is going to want a female
Lead some maybe just selina

3.bane - not to sure either but a real pyshical presance and advisonsary for batman , he doesn't care about who's under the mask he just wants to break and beat the batman simple but threatning

3.the riddler haven't figure out yet

Sorry bout the spelling damn Iphone keyboard

[Marvolo]

Personally, I don't want just some random villain to pop up in the third film. I want the third film to be the culmination of what's happened in the first two. So the villain needs to be a result of what's happened. I, also, don't want a retread.

As far as true villain goes, I only like The Joker, because I can buy him. Yes, he is over the top, but it's his nature. He is Batman's opposite, and he is insane. And to an extent he was a result of Batman. He is not just some dude bent on taking over. Ra I don't see as a villain. He was an idealist. Yes, he was a threat, but not a villain. I want the third film to keep with this idea, because it fits the whole "real" feel Nolan seems to want. The villain needs to be believable.

Most villains I just don't believe, and I don't take seriously.

[christpunchers]

The true goal of the 3rd movie would be to correct the flaws of TDK, to improve upon them, and to top the grandness of it. Even though Riddler would make a great villain, how can he make the 3rd film even BETTER than TDK? It's just too difficult.

[SPIDERMAN117]

The Mob should be finished off in this film by the main villain for good. But whos left though?

[spiderfan970]

Many have said the third theme should be redemption with batman seen as the primary villain. Well, I was thinking that Catwoman could possibly be the temptress taking batman away from his redemption and into the darkness, making his quest to walk the moral path even harder.

Either that, or Catwoman could become more of an anti-hero by the end of the film and somewhat redeem herself, similar to Batman to the city? And because Two-Face's demise is so questionable...Maybe bring him back for a third, Eckhart was such a good addition to the cast.

[returntovoid]

Options for the next film that I think all could be viable with Batman turning into a wanted vigilante

#1: Traditional Penguin Mobster + hired hitman (Bane / Deadshot)
#2: Holiday Killer for more Two-Face material.
#3: Talia al Ghul and Lady Shiva for Ra's al Ghul material
#4: Black Mask (mobster introduction)
#5: Hush
#6: The Riddler
#7: The Red Hood
#8: Hugo Strange (Bruce Wayne gets therapy and sets up his intro)

I think Scarecrow can be the main villain and Hush or Black Mask can be the 2nd villain. Also i think there should not be too many villains in the third film or it will end up like Spiderman 3.

Scarecrow

Scarecrow can be a bigger threat this time around.

Hush or Black Mask

Both want revenge on Bruce Wayne.

[Doc Samson]

I dont think Batman will be a villain per se, but I do think he could take on a more "The Dark Knight Returns" persona, waging a war against the criminals and cops. I also think they should incorporate the fake Batmen, like he had the Sons of the Bat in TDKR, it'd be interesting IMO. Whatever the case, I do believe there will be some sort of real villain, and whoever it is will have to play into his redemption, and becoming the true hero of Gotham...

[Rishi]

The thing about not having a "villain" villain is the movie will also cost less money to make, and consequently the WB might not need that push for marketing as much.

Having a more personal, dramatic story could work fine. Throw in the Penguin as a mob boss or Catwoman and you got a good final chapter.

As a side note... how can Batman possibly redeem his name without the people finding about about Dent?

[Grommers]

Batman can only have internal conflict, riddler will obviously be the bad guy, because riddler could make his riddles seem like its batman doing the killing.

I picture the riddler, and killer croc (killer croc being the crazed psycho who sharpened hsi teeth and has a skin disease). Croc would be good as a crazed killer, and Riddler to really mess with him.

I trust Nolan into finding someone that can play the riddler the way the comic books depict him. Its obvious that nolan can't top dark knight but he can probably come helluva close.

[jmc]

This topic is supposed to be about the countinuation of Nolans formula

1. A Villain with a purpose greater than his self
2. A Villain with selfish motivations

Try and keep your posts relevant to this idea

How about a Villain with obsessive intentions, an unintentional villain, The Riddler, he's not a bad person per se, he's just an intelligent man who has to know who Batman is, similar in the way in the movie Unbreakable where (SPOILER ALERT) Samuel L. Jackson's character was trying to find Bruce Willis' character via causing major accidents and killing hundred or people. The obsession become so bad that Nygma goes to extreme lengths to find out Batman's identity. I'd add Catwoman as the backbone being the criminal who becomes the anti-heroin, both Selina and Bruce being each others light in their darkest hours. I think redemption should be the theme for film three, but the great irony is the Batman would be the hardest one to redeem.

[Lauryn2000]

This topic is supposed to be about the countinuation of Nolans formula

1. A Villain with a purpose greater than his self
2. A Villain with selfish motivations

Try and keep your posts relevant to this idea


Hmmmmm........heck...I'm thinking this "non seen" villian would put a bounty for the Batman's head....but I'm at lost for who this villain would be...Batman has to be taken out....he's gotten bigger than the myth...anyone that dresses up as a giant rat w/wings has some serious issues...he should be locked up and sent to the Asylum....the City Of Gotham must wake up and see Batman for what he really is.......:brucebat:......ramplings of a madman.....Ah...The Mad Hatter???

[Nathaniel Essex]

People need to remember that Nolan likes to touch on the "since Batman is around, the freaks will come out"

[Juggernaut423]

Here's my ideal situation for the 3rd film.

Batman is on the run and this is when the Red Hood shows up in Gotham as the new "hero" of choice. Red Hood vows to catch Batman and take down villains for Gotham like Batman never could. In comes Penguin and his henchmen Bane who are set to rule the underworld of crime within Gotham.

Now this is where it gets interesting. I'd introduce Selina Kyle as a love interest but I wouldn't have her turn into Catwoman. I'd also introduce Edward Nygma, Tommy Elliot, Roman Sionis and Hugo Strange but they wouldn't be more than supporting roles. Nygma would be helping out the cops trying to find Batman and Hugo would be Bruce's therapist. As for Elliot, he would be there as someone who is hired by Bruce for his company since they were old time friends and Sionis would be a new mobster that is working with the Penguin but not much screentime.

The main storyline would encompass Gotham City eventually wanting Batman back because The Red Hood is actually killing his enemies in front of crowds of many which doesn't please the cops nor the citizens of Gotham. When The Red Hood fails to capture Batman and loses to Bane in a fight, this is when Batman is called back with the Batsignal to take down Penguin and Bane's criminal underworld.

For the sake of this thread
Penguin = Villain with gigantic goal to make the mob scene rule Gotham and take it over as an overrule of sorts. He would be regal and I'd envision Phillip Seymour Hoffman
Bane = selfish villain who is out to only crush Batman. For him, I'd envision someone the size of Daniel Cudmore (Colossus from X-Men).

The theme would be redemption. Two-Face would be found alive and working with Penguin at the end of the film. Red Hood would eventually turn into Robin but not the traditional Robin. He would just take the moniker and help serve Gotham, but wouldn't be a sidekick or anything (this is real iffy).

All of this would set up for a fourth film if its possible where Selina turns into Catwoman, Hugo Strange teams up with The Riddler to expose Batman since he's now adored again and the rising power of the Black Mask as a mobster. Hush could also show up as he stumbles upon Batman's armory and takes his weapons and becomes a vigilante himself.

[timwang2k]

There are other threads for that type of speculation

Like I said before this thread is about the countinuation of Nolan's formula

1. Villain with motives larger then him self
2. Villain with a selfish motivation

With that being said I believe that this would be the best approach for a sequel

1. The Riddler: He should be working with the police to discover Batmans identity. His motives are greater than his self he wants to save Gotham by taking down the Bat but he doesnt have the same moral compass as Batman and his obsession ends up hurting the citizens he is trying to protect
2. Catwoman: She only cares about herself and she seeks thrills such as stealing from the wealthy and running into the Batman

Thanks for trying to keep this thread somewhat on topic. You're choices for villains work although I'm having trouble seeing Catwoman stand toe to toe with Batman and it looking somewhat realistic.

[Clayface]

1. Hugo Strange
2. Bane
3. Clayface.

Hugo Strange discovers Batman's identity. He sells it to the vigilante Bane, who makes a deal with the cops to bring Batman in. At the same time, Strange hires a hitman with the alias 'Clayface' to frame Bruce Wayne for murder.

For Hugo Strange...Erick Avari.
http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/73088260.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABBA1B27B08C3F4F23C A40A659CEC4C8CB6

For Clayface...Crispin Glover.
http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/crispinglover001.jpg

For Bane...?

[timwang2k]

I just don't necessarily buy into the "formula" presented in this thread. I think it could end up going in an entirely different direction than two villains, one with a greater purpose and one with selfish motivations.


It COULD go in any direction Goyer and Nolan decide to take, so I decided that the best way to figure out who will be in the 3rd movie was to look at who they have used in previous movies and figure out their roles.

Do you disagree or find some fault with the formula, or do you accept it and just not buy into it being able to help figure out whom are going to be used as villains next?

Because really, if someone knocked on your door and punched you in the face when you opened it, then did it again the next day, what do you think will happen on the third? He could just give you a box of chocolates, the possibility for that to happen exists, but you're probably just gonna get punched in the face.

[timwang2k]

So I decided to list Batman's A-B list foes in the two categories and see who is left, thank you to the internet for helping compile the list. Villains in Begins and TDK are not included, I also left out KGBeast because I don't think he is relevant. Poison Ivy is listed in both categories.


Primary (Villain with motives larger then him self)
-Talia al Ghul
-League of Assassins
-Poison Ivy







Secondary (Villain with a selfish motivation)
-Catwoman
-Bane
-Black Mask
-Clayface
-Firefly
-Hush
-Killerr Croc
-MadHatter
-ManBat
-Mr Freeze
-Penguin
-Poison Ivy
-Riddler
-Hugo Strange
-ScarFace/Ventriloquist
-DeadShot

[Asteroid-Man]

I think you're missing a third villain. The Mob-Lord.
Falcone->Maroni->BLACK MASK

I don't know how it should be done but I would like Joker to come back in half way through and have Two-Face in it at somepoint too.

What would I prefer?

Primary->The Ridler his ideas of questioning peoples every act in a sort of autocratic society could be against everything Batman stands for.
Secondary-> The Joker and his selfish desire is to tell the world of how Two-Face did kill everyone just to really stick it to gotham that their white knight is really evil and show Batman that he broke his one rule with Two-Face.

I'm hoping however that in the end of Batman 3, we find out that Two-Face is still alive in a very subtle fashion.

[strikerbatman2]

Black mask!! he's big enough of a villian, with Gothams underworld deteriated he culd take over, and plunge the city into chaos(again). idk who the secondary villian would be?

[GenesisBeyond]

I think you're missing a FOURTH Villian(geez how many are there really?) The Corporate Rat.

William Earle -> Lau -> Cameron Van Cleer

Thus clearing the way for Killer Moth to make his big Screen Debut!

Ok mostly kidding about the Killer Moth...but the Corporate Bad Guy has also been in both films...maybe the Blask Mask can play the Dual Role of Mob Boss and Corporate Rat.

[batboy99]

Id have either one of these.

Keep going the Mob boss route and add either Penguin or Black mask. Riddler as primary villain.

Or

Batman as the ''villain'' against the cops etc, riddler as batmans villain and Ivy as a secondary villain.

[DorkyFresh]

you can't use black mask...




...the word 'black hole' comes to mind, hehe....j/m

[CinematicESP]

I like the idea that Batman is the "villain" in the public's eye while the true villain, the Riddler, is almost seen as a new hero to Gotham, helping to hunt the Batman. Gordon, knowing the truth behind Harvey and Batman, sees through the Riddler and works with Batman in secret to expose him.

Catwoman could be there to help. I think giving Bats an extra hand would be the next logical step in Nolan's films. With the escalation of "freaks" comes the need for recruitment, and if they aren't doing Robin, Catwoman is the best possibility. She's also the kind of anti-hero that Gotham believes Batman to be, so she can relate to him. New love interest? Check.

[VII7]

catwoman is overrated jesus i cant believe how many people actually want catwoman... i dont mind the riddler but catwoman LOOOL...

also i think they should use a villain we havent seen before on screen like hush and the black mask. that would be cool hush and the riddler maybe

[lixdexia]

my thoguhts? (though no one asked i'll share anyway)

main thing of the movie is batman going over the edge. he's lost rachel, his symbol for hope, he's lost the battle for harvey to the joker. he's serriously doubting himself and is constantly pushing ever closer to the edge, taking greater chances and being unnesicarily brutal. the riddler (who has ban as a sidekick, but bane has no lines, just muscle because a batman v. riddler fight would be boring) has begun siphoning off money from gotham's big businesses, most notably wayne enterprizes leaving clues to his identity and how to stop him along the way. batman figures out these clues and stops him leading to a rivalry with the riddler. riddler gets batman's identity from reese and start's breaking him down from that front. penguin is begining a slow take over of the mob. bruce meets catwoman mid theft in the movies opening scene, and later selina at some fancy party. selina is the love intrest, catwoman meets up with batman a couple of times throughout the movie and at the climax shows up to stop him from going too far with nigma. there also should be a nice batman v. cops foot chase ala year one. the movie is still batman centric with the "main villian" nigma only getting about as much screen time as scarecrow had in begins and penguin just getting a couple of scenes to show him as the emerging head of the mob (no big knock down drag outs for penguin)

[Viper81]

Originally Posted by CryticOne
Look at it like this, who did we know was going to be the villian in TDK at the end of Begins? The Joker.

Now, at the end of TDK, who was the "villain?" Batman.

Him against the city of Gotham. We don't need a villain like The Riddler, Catwoman, Clayface, or any other to headline the third movie.

How about irony...

Batman is the villain, and one of the known villains is actually the "hero"?

At least in the eyes of Gotham.

How frikin cool of a movie would THAT be?

The question, then, is who has the potential to be "heroic" in the next film? What villain do we have in the Batman arsenal that could be a "hero" in Gotham's eyes, but still be a Villain?

Also, bear in mind, that I've heard the comment that Nolan would like to do a villain who hasn't made it to the screen yet.

[VII7]

How about irony...

Batman is the villain, and one of the known villains is actually the "hero"?

At least in the eyes of Gotham.

How frikin cool of a movie would THAT be?

The question, then, is who has the potential to be "heroic" in the next film? What villain do we have in the Batman arsenal that could be a "hero" in Gotham's eyes, but still be a Villain?

Also, bear in mind, that I've heard the comment that Nolan would like to do a villain who hasn't made it to the screen yet.

didnt we already see this: batman returns?

[Lightning54SC]

Options for the next film that I think all could be viable with Batman turning into a wanted vigilante

#1: Traditional Penguin Mobster + hired hitman (Bane / Deadshot)
#2: Holiday Killer for more Two-Face material.
#3: Talia al Ghul and Lady Shiva for Ra's al Ghul material
#4: Black Mask (mobster introduction)
#5: Hush
#6: The Riddler
#7: The Red Hood
#8: Hugo Strange (Bruce Wayne gets therapy and sets up his intro)

what about Azreal...??? have him find Bruce, and get chummy only to have bruce find out that Azreal has been killing people why is why batman is looked at as a killer!

have a scene in which batman goes to visit the joker for advice on stopping this only to find out joker replaced himslef with a decoy and have someone else dress up as ledger running out of arkyum with what looks to be harley quinn with ledgers voiceover laughing in the background...

then have batman and Azreal battle it out and have bruce hand areal over to gordon and gotham to clear his name? how does that sound?

[Juggernaut423]

well your post is hard to follow, but Azrael would fit well into the series as would The Phantasm.

[spideymouse]

As a side note... how can Batman possibly redeem his name without the people finding about about Dent?
That's just it. The public eventually needs to know the truth about Harvey. Where in the comics does Gotham continue thinking that Batman is a villain and that Harvey Dent died as a hero? As many have said before, "redemption" would be a great theme for the third movie, and the revelation of Two-Face's villainry and the restoration of Batman's name would be a great turning point of the film. In TDK, Batman is willing to be anything that Gotham needs him to be, and the third film should reflect Gotham's need, as a city full of freaks, to embrace the Dark Knight as its true champion of justice.

Okay, okay, I'll respond to what this thread was supposed to be about. Given my opinion stated above, I believe a gamut of villains should be in play, although perhaps not in focus. Taking center stage could be a "rehabilitated" Harvey Dent/Two-Face and Catwoman in the supposed two villain "formula":

1.) Batman's primary adversary actually is bigger than one person, but it could be embodied by Two-Face. (I'd like to see Aaron Eckhart in the role again.) Imagine "the white knight" turning all of Gotham against the Dark Knight; the citizenry, the cops, and the "freaks," who now rule the mob and the underworld thanks to the Joker. A falsely "Arkham-rehabilitated" and facially-reconstructed Harvey Dent posing as Gotham's fallen and risen hero would lead the city against Batman while leading a double life as a criminal and/or vigilante. A hesitant Gordon would lead an angry police department, and a minor "freak" (Penguin or Ventriloquist) would lead the mob, with Dent letting the mob take over the city again.

2.) Batman's secondary adversary could be his own temptation towards self-preservation, possibly embodied in Selina Kyle (not sure if I see her as Catwoman yet). Although he intended it, perhaps he fears or feels that the "legend" of Batman actually can't handle the way the city turned on him, and seeks escape inhttp://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=ann+arbor+mi+48103
weather Bruce Wayne's life, which Selina has just entered. Selina could tempt him to reject the city who first rejected him.

The beginning of the film would show Gotham in its truly worst times before its getting any better (reflecting Alfred's words). "Things are worse than ever" has now been said in the first two films (Rachel in BB, and some random guy in TDK), but this could take the cake. A city that collectively decides that it's against its hero and for its villain would truly be worse than a city gripped in fear of the mob/a madman. A Gotham that needs its hero to save it from itself could top TDK, in terms of scope--when people say "Batman as the villain," we're actually saying "Gotham as the villain AND victim." Back to the story, Batman would have to reveal Dent to Gotham for who he is (maybe with Gordon's help) while overcoming the mob (no thanks to the police) and winning back the city in a dark but redemptive victory.

[spideymouse]

How about irony...

Batman is the villain, and one of the known villains is actually the "hero"?

At least in the eyes of Gotham.

How frikin cool of a movie would THAT be?

The question, then, is who has the potential to be "heroic" in the next film? What villain do we have in the Batman arsenal that could be a "hero" in Gotham's eyes, but still be a Villain?
There was a movie where one of the villains was actually the "hero": The Dark Knight. And yes, i'd say it was quite "frikin cool of a movie."
A "rehabilitated" Harvey Dent DEFINITELY has the potential to be "heroic" in the next film; in fact, he already fulfilled that potential. A villainous Harvey Two-Face double-dealing behind the "heroic" Harvey Dent could work this out perfectly. Batman is given a choice: allowing Gotham to go on believing the lie, or bringing it to true justice. (see my post above)

didnt we already see this: batman returns?
Yes. Again, we see this in The Dark Knight: Harvey Dent "died a hero", but the truth is that he "lived long enough to see himself become the villain." See my above post to show how the third movie could use this pretty well.

[wrhssaxensemble]

what about Azreal...??? have him find Bruce, and get chummy only to have bruce find out that Azreal has been killing people why is why batman is looked at as a killer!

have a scene in which batman goes to visit the joker for advice on stopping this only to find out joker replaced himslef with a decoy and have someone else dress up as ledger running out of arkyum with what looks to be harley quinn with ledgers voiceover laughing in the background...

then have batman and Azreal battle it out and have bruce hand areal over to gordon and gotham to clear his name? how does that sound?

But Azrael is not a villain... sure he has been more violent etc. than Bruce is, but he has never, to my recollection actually been a villain

[nOvAkAiNe]

i see nolan (assuming he takes the mantle again, with the sick money its made...warner will def. persuade him.) bringing in catwoman. its simply goes with what TDK built up, Bats is alone now, he doesnt have gordon or the city on his side. catwoman although she usually works to her advantage she helps batman now and then. i believe Catwoman has always been batman's connection with humanity. (at least when jeph loeb is writing her and it looks like they are taking his and franks "early" batman arcs as reference for the movies) On the other hand, we have a plot line open where someone knows his identity. It seems to me that this is an open play for the Riddler character, i can see him threatening or blackmailing the guy who knows bats identity (forgot his name) and using that leverage to make alot of money off of the mob to bring down batman once and for all. He'll attack batman and Bruce wayne at the same time, he'll use his past and his secrets to dismantle the batman. I cant see the Riddler telling anyone batmans secret because what good is a riddle everyone knows the answer to? (nod to Hush) I dont see batman fighting to clear his name, if that were the case he wouldnt have volunteered to take the blame after harveys fall from grace. but somehow he'll get the city and the law back on his side, but it'll be a kind of "dark victory". (thats the route i think they'll take next)

[zenith16]

sorry nOvAkAiNe both nolan and oldman said no to cat woman cause she is lame. they said no catwoman, bat girl, robin and peguin . cause their all lame to them. it's all in here video link:Christopher Nolan talks about the next Batman film.
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=307244

[nOvAkAiNe]

i just saw a video where nolan said he isnt even thinking about the 3rd movie yet. so i take what is said with a grain of salt. i guess we wont know until something is said.

[chamber-music]

They have lots of villains to choose from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Batman_Family_enemies

[chamber-music]

EXCLUSIVE: David Goyer Says He Knows The Theme For ‘Batman 3’


“I think that’s the scariest thing – to think, could we come up with a third movie that was as good as the first two? Can we top ourselves?” screenwriter David Goyer asked aloud, almost rhetorically, in a recent conversation with MTV News. “Doing it a third time would be a big proposition.”

Make no mistake about it, though, a third film HAS been discussed, Goyer confessed, revealing that, while nothing is concrete, both a villain and a theme have been bandied about.

“We’ve only talked loosely about it, though, Chris [Nolan] and I,” Goyer said.

Interestingly, it’s the theme, and not the villain, that most interests me, especially given how the latter seems inexorably tied to the former in this new modern Batman universe. (Fear the predominant issue in “Begins” precipitating the introduction of Scarecrow, escalation in “Knight” similarly calling for The Joker.

The fact that Goyer has a theme he wants to keep in mind for a possible “Batman 3” means he also has a direction, a crisis, and, yes, a villain.

So what is it?

“I have one,” Goyer said laughing. “But I’m not going to tell you. Chris is very particular about that.

“I do think, though, that if there’s not a third film – these two movies stand on their own,” he added. “I think it could go either way.”

[TheRumbleDragon]

Posssible villains for the Nolan Batman (besides Joker and Two-Face):

Black Mask
Hush
Talia Al Ghul
Catwoman
Riddler
Ellen Yindel
Dr. Bartholomew Wolper

I can picture Bane as a huge thug. He does not don the mask, but wears a hood and the shape of the eyes on his mask (in the comics) is on the side of it, huge thug not a big villain but a nod.

[CrypticOne]

You see, people these days don't have the attention span to just deal with a great, amazing story. They need a villain.

If there is a villain in BB3, the only thing I see working is Two Face. You can't just throw Catwoman, The Riddler in. How can they fit into Nolan's real ongoing story? People really need to watch Batman Begins and The Dark Knight and really understand these movies. This is Batman's story. His beginning. His transformation into Gotham's Knight. His tear through organized crime. His rebuilding of Gotham.

[jackshea]

i think black mask would work very well, make him obsessed with masks, start a gang war, tie him to catwoman like in the comics, i think he could also be merged w/ aspects of hush. masks would be the theme, i think he should also have a silent, deadly girlfriend named pamela isley, and the terrible trio as his main men. The trio could wear masks that are like the death eater masks in hp, but designed after their animals. the gang war would be a great overall story.

[BatJokerFace]

EXCLUSIVE: David Goyer Says He Knows The Theme For ‘Batman 3’

I think it's pretty easy to delineate the thematic direction for these movies. Fear (Batman Begins) -> Escalation (The Dark Knight) -> Redemption (Third Movie)

So the question Batfans should ask themselves: Who needs redeeming? Short answer: Harvey Dent. Long answer: Batman's ultimate purpose, to Bruce, in addition to his reputation for Gotham.

That leads us to a Gotham City now benighted by a rash of masked villains and civil war in the mafia realm. The third film needs someone to fill the major villain role, and someone (according to this thread's purported formula) who represents an idea bigger than himself/herself.

But who says the major villain needs to be an idealist like Ra's al-Ghul or true believer like The Joker? I think the film needs someone who doesn't intend to represent a bigger goal but does so anyway - and that immediately selects an entire host of villains.

I think Bane is a perfect fit. Bane represents the escalation theme and, if his purpose in the film, as in the comic books, should be only to challenge Batman and rule the underworld, what is Batman's purpose, if he only inspires masked villainy? Batman "inspired" the fake Batmans and, at least according to The Joker, "complete[d]" him and gave him purpose.

Now Batman would seem to give Bane equal purpose. So Batman and Gotham have to answer the question: What is Batman's purpose if, instead of turning fear on those who prey on the fearful, his role in Gotham inspires madness, lawlessness, anarchy? Wouldn't it be better if Batman weren't around?

It doesn't add a new layer of depth like The Joker, but rather elaborates on what The Joker and TDK's fake Batmans postulated. If the third film introduced a new District Attorney, that position would be ripe to be anti-Batman (and I suggest it be helmed by a woman, since the past two positions were by men) and come into conflict with Gordon's supportive role.

The way Batman responds to this crisis redeems his role and reputation. Which role Harvey Two-Face plays, if any, could support the redemption theme.

So my answer to the formula:

Primary villain: Bane

Secondary villains:

Black Mask (by day, well-received philanthropist; by night, mafia leader of the underworld)
The Penguin (as an arms/drugs dealer)
The Ventriloquist
Catwoman (partial ally to Batman)
The Riddler
Harley Quinn (inspired by The Joker, like one of the fake Batmen)

I also think, in this capacity, that Catwoman could serve as more an informant and hinted-at romantic interest to Batman than as an actual villain. Criminal? Sure. Villain? Nah.

Ideas? Thoughts?

[korrupt]

i dont think it necessarily has to follow that formula. would get repetitive i think. why can't the main villian have a selfish motivation?
i think the next villian should be mr. freeze, but done more realistically. with his motivation being vengeance for his wife.

[CFE]

I think the majority of the third film should be Gotham City vs. Batman, but then a villain comes along that forces Gotham to call on Batman to save the day...thus putting everything right once more.

CFE

[Joker's Lackey]

*On topic: I don't believe in this formula. I just can't see it. Sorry to disagree. I just feel each villain represents the theme of the movie. Ra's using of Scarecrow's drug to spread Fear, so Gotham would rip itself to shreds. Joker being a new type of villain, where the Freaks are taking Gotham over from the old Mob families and yes that theme would be Escalation. So to figure out the next villain(s) are, we need to know the theme. So if Redemption is the speculated theme, Two-Face would more than likely be the main threat. Also don't forget the Joker was set to appear in the third movie, he could have easily have been the main threat again. Just my two cents.

[Starscreamer]

Warner Brothers will demand a villain! They have toys to sell and marketing campaigns to wage. A story about Batman running from the police is NOT going to be enough for the whole movie. You are going to see another of Batman's rogues. One thing about Nolan's formula he HAS used the villains in these movies.

BB- Ra's and Scarecrow
TDK- Scarecrow, Joker, Two Face

I think it will be The Riddler. Batman will have to redeem himself somehow. I believe prior to Ledger's death they planned on having him redeem himself by battling the Joker and saving Gotham in part 3 but now they need someone else, a new threat and it has to be bigger than the mob. The mob is crippled at the end of TDK, Two Face and Joker killed the big boys and the little crooks are in jail and will stay there thanks to Batman keeping Dent a hero. Wasn't that the point of him being the villain?

[RonStoppablefan]

EXCLUSIVE: David Goyer Says He Knows The Theme For ‘Batman 3’

So he has plans already for a third one eh? Cool. I just hope there is one, but if not I understand, the second film was pretty freakin cool :woot:

[Spider-Man '92]

I don't know where people get off saying Clayface should be in the next one. He's a cool villain, but honestly, he's one of the last characters I want in, because of the fact that these movies are supposed to be more realistic. Clayface just wouldn't work people.

Now Riddler could work. Perhaps extend on the Joel Shumacher Riddler, making him much more maniacal, and crazy. Riddler could work. Penguin could work as well (going for the more gangster Penguin).

However, I think the best "new" villain (not necessarily the main villain) would be SCARFACE and the VENTRILOQUIST (capitals so people can see it scrolling down). They could fill up the slot for mob leader, as well as villain. It's very realistic (a guy who's skitzo). It would work. Just think of it people. It would work.

[jmc]

I think trying to beat the Joker in terms of insane and over the top villain would be the wrong approach, I think there needs to be a 180 turn with a film three villain/s, something a bit more subtle to contrast the previous villain, The Riddler is probably the best villain for it because he's intelligent, he's not insane in the same way as the Joker, he's smart and therefore doesn't need to cause outlandish and cataclysmic events in order to gain Batman's attention, it's a battle of wits (that's not to say there can't be cool action sequences).

[Mike059jig]

I would like a villain that threatens Bruce Wayne himself....a rich smart clever one that comes to Gotham and steals the spotlight.....batman will be more in stealth mode with Gordon.....Riddler could he work? he would be the brains....recruits scarecrow to tell him about the batman....Bane would be as a big Russian muscle guy for the mobster....

[BatJokerFace]

My suggestions for main villains: Bane, Black Mask, and The Riddler should all be the next film's major villains.

Bane seeks to challenge Batman and secretly rule the underworld, making Bruce Wayne question the benefits Batman brings to Gotham.
Black Mask rules the mafia remnants by night and challenges Bruce Wayne by day as a wealthy industrialist and respected philanthropist. He feeds Bane the Venom steroid he needs.
The Riddler wants to learn Batman's true identity and spends the movie doing it. Bane beats The Riddler for this information.A new District Attorney, Ellen Yin, marshals Gotham against Batman and challenges Commissioner Gordon's ability to work with Batman.

Harvey Two-Face's role is never clear and he remains a wild-card. Only in the end should he redeem himself.

Thoughts?

[Lightning54SC]

hate to say this but this is liek the Star Wars trilogy.

Begins = The start and the hero saves the day

TDK = Empire strikes back, ends on a downer, LIKE REAL LIFE DOES

Next? = must be Return of the Jedi, they need the biggest showdown of all time.. meaning joker and batman like luck and vadar... so recast ledger with depp or someone and FINISH IT RIGHT!

[timwang2k]

*On topic: I don't believe in this formula. I just can't see it. Sorry to disagree. I just feel each villain represents the theme of the movie. Ra's using of Scarecrow's drug to spread Fear, so Gotham would rip itself to shreds. Joker being a new type of villain, where the Freaks are taking Gotham over from the old Mob families and yes that theme would be Escalation. So to figure out the next villain(s) are, we need to know the theme. So if Redemption is the speculated theme, Two-Face would more than likely be the main threat. Also don't forget the Joker was set to appear in the third movie, he could have easily have been the main threat again. Just my two cents.

I agree that the main villains represent the theme, but I still think the way the villains were used was deliberate. In both movies Nolan makes sure to bring up what Batman stands for and sets up a villain to counter that stance.

On another note, I don't get the whole redemption idea. Why does Batman need to be redeemed? I don't think the citizens of Gotham need to love or respect him to do his job. That's pretty much why he was able to take the fall for Harvey.

If he is redeemed what does that accomplish? A happy Batman? He's not donning the suit to get the adoration of the public. He doesn't care what people think about him.

[Batty Belfry]

I'd prefer to see villains that have not been used before in a movie, like Black Mask and Deadshot.

Or if they go with somebody like the Riddler, build the film's structure in a different way, maybe like Memento or something. That could be very engaging.

I don't think they have to "top" TDK. I believe that they just have to come up with a good compelling story. It's obvious that they can't top The Joker, so they should try something a little different.

[Gianakin_]

As the days pass, I wouldn't really mind Black Mask. But I have my mind set on Catwoman so much that my soul will rest only when they confirm or outright deny her existence in the 3rd film.

[BobJM]

I don't think a mob war with Black Mask and Penguin is a great idea for main antagonists. The mob has always played second fiddle in these films, and its served them well.

Then we have Riddler, but I don't think he can carry a movie on his own. And Catwoman, for me, is more antihero than villain.

So, until I hear a good concept that ties them all together, in BB3 we're stuck with a bunch of villains that can't carry a film.

[BatJokerFace]

I agree that the main villains represent the theme, but I still think the way the villains were used was deliberate. In both movies Nolan makes sure to bring up what Batman stands for and sets up a villain to counter that stance.

On another note, I don't get the whole redemption idea. Why does Batman need to be redeemed? I don't think the citizens of Gotham need to love or respect him to do his job. That's pretty much why he was able to take the fall for Harvey.

If he is redeemed what does that accomplish? A happy Batman? He's not donning the suit to get the adoration of the public. He doesn't care what people think about him.

It's not that Batman needs to be happy. The redemption theme goes hand-in-hand with Batman's questions about his own role in Gotham. Look at the questions TDK posed in lieu of fake Batmen, The Joker ("you complete me"), and Rachel's criticism of Bruce needing Batman: Does Batman accomplish more good than evil, or does he attract all these "crazies" to Gotham?

So, logically, Batman will be critical about the good he can accomplish. He'll need to redeem his own role in Gotham -- to himself especially -- so he can continue doing his job.

It makes sense because:

-In Batman Begins, Bruce Wayne wants to accomplish good by becoming Batman
-In The Dark Knight, Batman is confronted by the consequences of his extralegal actions against crime
-In the third installment, Batman will need to see for himself why Gotham needs Batman

This could play into a lot of friction between Batman and Gotham, particularly if a new District Attorney is as rigorously anti-Batman as the new villain. The villain -- maybe Roman Sionis or Bane, or both? -- could initially win public favor for trying to bring Batman to justice.

[jackshea]

black mask is tied to catwoman, infact, she kills him, which would be a good way of showing how she's not batman. also black mask was set to be in TDK, but was written out, i suppose as a gang leader, showing that nolan isn't opposed to him.

[jackshea]

i think if you want a big strong guy, do soloman grundy, if they want to keep w/ the long halloween, don't have him be a zombie, just a masssive, albino patient in Arkham.

[BatJokerFace]

Quote:
Originally Posted by timwang2k http://forums.superherohype.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=15353307#post15353307)
I agree that the main villains represent the theme, but I still think the way the villains were used was deliberate. In both movies Nolan makes sure to bring up what Batman stands for and sets up a villain to counter that stance.

On another note, I don't get the whole redemption idea. Why does Batman need to be redeemed? I don't think the citizens of Gotham need to love or respect him to do his job. That's pretty much why he was able to take the fall for Harvey.

If he is redeemed what does that accomplish? A happy Batman? He's not donning the suit to get the adoration of the public. He doesn't care what people think about him.

It's not that Batman needs to be happy. The redemption theme goes hand-in-hand with Batman's questions about his own role in Gotham. Look at the questions TDK posed in lieu of fake Batmen, The Joker ("you complete me"), and Rachel's criticism of Bruce needing Batman: Does Batman accomplish more good than evil, or does he attract all these "crazies" to Gotham?

So, logically, Batman will be critical about the good he can accomplish. He'll need to redeem his own role in Gotham -- to himself especially -- so he can continue doing his job.

It makes sense because:

-In Batman Begins, Bruce Wayne wants to accomplish good by becoming Batman
-In The Dark Knight, Batman is confronted by the consequences of his extralegal actions against crime
-In the third installment, Batman will need to see for himself why Gotham needs Batman

This could play into a lot of friction between Batman and Gotham, particularly if a new District Attorney is as rigorously anti-Batman as the new villain. The villain -- maybe Roman Sionis or Bane, or both? -- could initially win public favor for trying to bring Batman to justice.

[Frank Noir]

Good point.

You see, people these days don't have the attention span to just deal with a great, amazing story. They need a villain.

If there is a villain in BB3, the only thing I see working is Two Face. You can't just throw Catwoman, The Riddler in. How can they fit into Nolan's real ongoing story? People really need to watch Batman Begins and The Dark Knight and really understand these movies. This is Batman's story. His beginning. His transformation into Gotham's Knight. His tear through organized crime. His rebuilding of Gotham.

I liked reading that. Because I'm a big fan of Two-Face coming back.

Another thing I was thinking of: why can't the Nolan brothers come up with their own villain? I think The Riddler, The Penguin, Catwoman, Killer Croc, Mad Hatter etc are not fit for these films. Leave it up to Nolan to come up with something relevant and intelligent.

[Batty Belfry]

Another thing I was thinking of: why can't the Nolan brothers come up with their own villain?

I had considered this before as well, I think it's cool. The Nolans could pull that off. It would be unique.

[Cunning Stunts]

There is going to be a villain. No villain = Superman Returns. The idea of Batman vs the mob and just trying to clear his name isn't going to do it. There has to be a primary antagonist.
Not a knock on SR but people wanted to see more than Supes flying around saving people.
People will want to see more than Batman vs avereage job mobster and trying to clear his name.

Very true... I think you can really play on how The Joker was used in TDK.

He became someone for the mob to follow (reluctantly, but nonetheless, they followed him), and he ultimately took the mob over. The same should be done for a new villain, except now, he/she should lead Gotham against Batman.


I'm still not ready to believe Two-Face is dead. They had a memorial for Harvey Dent at the end of TDK, not Two Face. Plus, look at gag from The Long Halloween that Gordon played on everybody in TDK.

[LightningFlash]

Batman Begins took a lot of elements from Year One and The Dark Knight took a lot of elements from The Long Halloween and it only makes sense for the third Batman movie to take elements from Dark Victory.

Now, for BB, the villains, or the main villain needed to be apart of Batman's origin, i.e. Ra's Al Ghul, and then for the big villain that is based on Gotham, it was Scarecrow.

TDK and TLH had a lot of same elements; Joker, Two-Face and dealt more within the mob trying to control Gotham.

Now Sal Maroni SHOULD still be alive, and he was in DV, so I think one villain that could be much like Hangman would be the Phantasm. A female villain would be perfect for the third movie. The third movie needs at least one female cast, and also as a love interest for Batman, but having a villain kill members of the mob would make Batman come out of the shadows even with the police after him.

Just my opinions.

But a second villain to have could be Black Mask, not as a mass-murdering villain, but as a mob boss, trying to figure out who the Phantasm is. And a cool Batman/Phantasm/Black Mask fight would be nice to see and something very different.