I am now a Minority

[Malice]

I wanted to bring this up and see what people thought.

In Houston, whites are now the Minority. Hispanics are not at a 50% majority.
Does this mean I can now "minority benefits" to colleges/scholorships and other things of that nature?

[Tag279]

I wanted to bring this up and see what people thought.

In Houston, whites are now the Minority. Hispanics are not at a 50% majority.
Does this mean I can now "minority benefits" to colleges/scholorships and other things of that nature?

Hey give it a shot.

I know for a fact that you could get a minority [student] scholarship to Jackson State, Missississippi Valley State, Alcorn State University, Alabama State University, Florida A & M University (FAM-U), or Moorehouse, among other HBCU's.

The colleges and universities I just mentioned are historically black colleges and universities. Meaning at one time they were the only places that a black person could go to college.

Now they historically have predominantly black student populations and non-black students are welcomed. The problem is many people that are not black consider them to be sub-standard when that is not the case.

[Johnny Drama]

I wanted to bring this up and see what people thought.

In Houston, whites are now the Minority. Hispanics are not at a 50% majority.
Does this mean I can now "minority benefits" to colleges/scholorships and other things of that nature?

Come on over to Florida. Over here, we were a minority when Clinton was president. Not that that bothers me, I just hate the word "minority" because it is completely inaccurate in the 21st century.

[Kelly]

Come on over to my side of Houston Malice, I've been the minority for the past 17 years....

[SuBe]

Welcome to the Club, Mally.

[Aleena]

I also am in that club. I just want some of the benefits the club offers.

[SuBe]

The Fees are too high, I don't pay them.

[Aleena]

I agree. I seem to be paying a hell of a lot and it looks like the higher I climb, the more I pay for the fees but reap none of the rewards.

[Tag279]

I also am in that club. I just want some of the benefits the club offers.

Yeah sure the KKK and Neo-Nazis want to kill you, People don't want you working for them because of your color, Your viewed as arrogant if you are intellegent and articulate, you want to be viewed as a foreigner or an outsider.

Welcome to the club:cwink:

[Aleena]

..and how many years do we have to hear this. If you are the majority then be it. How about the gangs that would kill us just for being white? How long do you think I would survive walking in your neighborhood? Yet, you are ready and waiting for the benefits I work to give you.

[Kelly]

*sighs*


here we go

[Tag279]

..and how many years do we have to hear this. If you are the majority then be it. How about the gangs that would kill us just for being white? How long do you think I would survive walking in your neighborhood? Yet, you are ready and waiting for the benefits I work to give you.

Excuse me maam what are you insinuating?

I have three degrees I own my home pay my taxes work every and raise my children in my home with my wife who helped me make them.

I never recived a minority scholarship to go to college I payed my way through by working and student loans.

You have not given me anything. I have had to overcome the negative perceptions held by you and others about black people.

You have not given me or mine anything...

[Johnny Drama]

Excuse me maam what are you insinuating?

I have three degrees I own my home pay my taxes work every and raise my children in my home with my wife who helped me make them.

I never recived a minority scholarship to go to college I payed my way through by working and student loans.

You have not given me anything. I have had to overcome the negative perceptions held by you and others about black people.

You have not given me or mine anything...


Oh snap!

[Matt]

Both of you cool it or you can both take a couple days off.

[Johnny Drama]

Neither of them did anything wrong...

[Matt]

I cannot even begin to express how wrong Aleena's comments were and where they were going to lead. As for Tag, I know him well enough to know if he does not walk away from this conversation, pandora's box is going to be open and he's going to say something that get him banned.

Furthermore, its not for you to decide.

[Johnny Drama]

And it's yours to decide why? Because your name is red?

[moraldeficiency]

People make this out as more than it is. Overreactions abound. Really who cares? The only people basing judgements on race alone are *******s and should be avoided regardless of who they are. Now it sucks when someone you have to deal with is like say a cop or something, but life isn't always fair and won't always go your way no matter what skin color or beliefs you have.

Malice welcome to being a minority, things change and the population grows. No one stays the majority forever, that's just life.

Being in either camp has it's advantages and disadvantages socially. But think of it in this way, would you really have wanted to be in the majority for your whole life? Diversity and other cultures (muted as they are in the States) don't hurt, actually it can make you into a better stronger person if you see this as a positive in terms of personal growth or you can try and get some of those minority rights you spoke about and keep this cycle going.

[Aleena]

Well I would like to apologize for my remarks. I think he thought i was directing them at him and it does look like it but I actually was just talking about people that can work but choose not to and that does bother me. I also agree this topic can not be discussed and I am sorry I even tried. Please forgive me.

[Matt]

It can and has been discussed on the Hype. You just have to approach it with some sensitivity. Tag and I have discussed race relations on numerous occassions and though we do not always see eye to eye, we have done it in both a civil and intelligent manner. When you say something like "Yet, you are ready and waiting for the benefits I work to give you,"...well...its just not going to end well.

[Varient]

I also am in that club. I just want some of the benefits the club offers.

Yeah sure the KKK and Neo-Nazis want to kill you, People don't want you working for them because of your color, Your viewed as arrogant if you are intellegent and articulate, you want to be viewed as a foreigner or an outsider.

Welcome to the club:cwink:

..and how many years do we have to hear this. If you are the majority then be it. How about the gangs that would kill us just for being white? How long do you think I would survive walking in your neighborhood? Yet, you are ready and waiting for the benefits I work to give you.

Excuse me maam what are you insinuating?

I have three degrees I own my home pay my taxes work every and raise my children in my home with my wife who helped me make them.

I never recived a minority scholarship to go to college I payed my way through by working and student loans.

You have not given me anything. I have had to overcome the negative perceptions held by you and others about black people.

You have not given me or mine anything...

I'm laughing.
I almost wish Matt would see how deep the hole gets and how much dirt gets thrown.

This thread has been exposed as hate-based and should be closed.

V.

[jaguarr]

When I first read the thread title I was almost certain that Malice had gotten sexual reassignment surgery. I was fully prepared to call him Alice from now on. I still might. :hehe:

jag

[Marx]

I was actually just reading about this - By the year 2042, all caucasians will be the minority.

It's pretty interesting to think about it...

[The Senator]

Well I would like to apologize for my remarks. I think he thought i was directing them at him and it does look like it but I actually was just talking about people that can work but choose not to and that does bother me. I also agree this topic can not be discussed and I am sorry I even tried. Please forgive me.

The topic can be discussed if it is done with tact.

[rdh007]

I was actually just reading about this - By the year 2042, all caucasians will be the minority.

It's pretty interesting to think about it...

Since I'll be 68, I want all people who look different from me to know that taking care of seniors is the most important thing we do.

[Marx]

The topic can be discussed if it is done with tact.

Unfortunately, some here lack tact.

[moraldeficiency]

Unfortunately, some here lack tact.

the goddamn ****ing *****uckers!!!

[Varient]

Being a minority:

Meh - True happening.

This morning I got up an hour earlier because it was Friday, and a Payday, and I thought I deserved a breakfast @ dennys.

So I arrived @ denny's 45 minutes before I had to be at work. When I walked in there There were 4 truckers at another table talking and eating and one waitress in sight.

She saw me come in and continued to clean behind the counter.

I stood and waited at the counter to be seated, reading from the book I'd brought in.

After the first glance when I walked in she ignored me.

With 40 minutes before I had to be at work, I asked : "Should I sit anywhere?"

The waitress turned very fast and motioned toward the rest of the place saying "Sit anywhere, your waiter will be with you shortly."

I sat down, she continued to clean.

I was patient, I kept revising my order mentally to give me time to eat and go.

@ 30 minutes before I had to be at work I was well past "to go" and decided to do fast food during the ten minute drive to work from there.

As I got up to leave (I made no sound other than the jingle of picking up my keys) and headed for the door.

At that point a waiter got up from the tables next to the door and met me halfway with his face completly blank and started to make motions to direct me back to a seat while opening his mouth to say something.

He didn't because I said "I no longer have time" as I stepped around him and headed out the door.

He shrugged and headed over to the waitress behind the counter where they put their heads together and talked as they watched me walk to my car.

I watched them watch me as if I had attempted to rob them.


Now of course its NORMAL to go into an almost empty Denny's @ 0445 am and have to wait five minutes to be seated and ten minutes to be waited on by someone who didn't show up until his tip was out the door,....

And of course I'm simply TOO SENSITIVE that both were white people and that in other denny's if the dedicated waiter is not present, the first waitress on scene at least seats you and brings coffee after asking.

This is still SOP for me. If you raise a fuss these type of people throw up their hands and ask what the big deal about behavior they wouldn't tolerate in my place but believe I need to just ignore it.

MEH.

[moraldeficiency]

I think the real question is what type of suicidal bastard are you to be eating at denny's in the first place? And then to expect good service? You must have been high.

[jaguarr]

V, first....NO ONE deserves breakfast at Denny's. :hehe: Second, I've had similarly beyond poor service at a Denny's before and I'm a white-boy. I think that's just par for the course in some places, to be honest. I'm not trying to underplay your experience by any means and of course there could have been some prejudice at play, there. But Denny's probably isn't the best example of a place where service is king, IMHO. :o

jag

[Varient]

I think the real question is what type of suicidal bastard are you to be eating at denny's in the first place? And then to expect good service? You must have been high.

No,.. used to military food,... Denny's is a step up.


V, first....NO ONE deserves breakfast at Denny's. :hehe: Second, I've had similarly beyond poor service at a Denny's before and I'm a white-boy. I think that's just par for the course in some places, to be honest. I'm not trying to underplay your experience by any means and of course there could have been some prejudice at play, there. But Denny's probably isn't the best example of a place where service is king, IMHO. :o

jag

My irritation is that while this can happen to you,... it USUALLY doesn't. (No I don't personally know your schedule,.. I'm talking colored stats.)

It never matters as to whether I look for it or instigate an incident,... my life is full of my running into enough of this silliness to not wonder why weaker minds turn to violence after a few years of it.

I had been to this place many times before and this was the first time these two were alone together when I came in.

People take the tude that those of us who complain want "special" treatment when the reality is we just want equal treatment.

So many whites get "tired" of hearing it,... but they can't be bothered to hold their own to task for it.

In this case I voted with my wallet.

But I HATE depriving myself of something simply because someone else feels it's okay to be rude.

V.

[jaguarr]

My irritation is that while this can happen to you,... it USUALLY doesn't. (No I don't personally know your schedule,.. I'm talking colored stats.)

Usually, no, it doesn't happen to me. However, when places like Denny's are involved, all bets are off. :o


It never matters as to whether I look for it or instigate an incident,... my life is full of my running into enough of this silliness to not wonder why weaker minds turn to violence after a few years of it.

I had been to this place many times before and this was the first time these two were alone together when I came in.

People take the tude that those of us who complain want "special" treatment when the reality is we just want equal treatment.

So many whites get "tired" of hearing it,... but they can't be bothered to hold their own to task for it.

In this case I voted with my wallet.

But I HATE depriving myself of something simply because someone else feels it's okay to be rude.

V.

I don't doubt that people of color encounter prejudice and racism. My own wife is Dominican and we've had a few instances where I've had to put someone in their place for saying something idiotically racist to her or in front of her. Everyone absolutely does deserve equal treatment but sadly, humans are quite often petty, phobic, small, selfish little creatures when it comes down to the crux of it all. Not all are like that, but enough for it to be a problem.

jag

[BlackLantern]

I do not frequent Denny's there really aren't a lot of them here in the northeast...we have a lot of diners run by the Greeks, which are pretty good....as for the minority thing, Malice if all else fails you can write a manifesto about The Man keeping you down....

[Kelly]

The thing about Houston is, it's large enough that there are actually areas where there are few if any hispanic (majority), therefore they really aren't the majority. In my area, YES, hispanics and blacks are the majority. I have awesome neighbors, blacks as well as hispanic, there are a few more teachers who are white that live in the same apartments who are white like me, none of us want to live anywhere else. I love my neighbors, they feed me well.....:hehe:

[Malice]

I just hate the minority label now.
It so empowers people in a very6 negative way now.

[The Senator]

One of the things I wonder is, in thirty-five years or so when whites will be in the minority, will there be a need for things like affirmative action and orchestrated diversity expansion efforts by public schools? Because once non-whites are in the majority, then shouldn't they not be at a disadvantage?

I personally feel that affirmative action should start to be waned out. I am in favor of it, I really am, but I think that within the next twenty years or so it will not be a necessity. During the past twenty years, it has been a necessity, simply because it has given many African Americans/ other non-whites a chance to pursue an education they may not have been granted otherwise. It gave many of them a chance at success (even if, grade-wise, they didn't necessarily deserve to go to Princeton). But we're seeing improvements in test scores among minorities in most cities across the country, we're seeing more and more minorities graduate high school and go off to college. Many of them are getting their feet in the doors, so-to-speak, which was really a fundamental goal of affirmative action to begin with.

So hopefully we can do away with affirmative action entirely within the next decade or so. Hopefully we won't need "minority scholarships" or things like that (side question: is that what they'll call those scholarships once non-whites are in the majority?). Hopefully we can end the epilogue to our society's great big race problem.

[Tag279]

I just hate the minority label now.
It so empowers people in a very negative way now.

I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say but I don't think being a minority empowers you.

Now there is empowerment in accepting one's self. Blacks used to deny their blackness. If a black person could pass for white they often tried to do so.

Now more people that try to identify with their blackness instead of denieing it.

The sad fact is being black or hispanic in the eyes of some is a strike against you.

We have come so far to not have gone anywhere.:csad:

[The Senator]

I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say but I don't think being a minority empowers you.

Now there is empowerment in accepting one's self. Blacks used to deny their blackness. If a black person could pass for white they often tried to do so.

Now more people that try to identify with their blackness instead of denieing it.

The sad fact is being black or hispanic in the eyes of some is a strike against you.

We have come so far to not have gone anywhere.:csad:

You will always have that to deal with, though. There will always be some white guy in the middle of Mississippi who hates black people with a passion, who teaches his children to hate black people and then they teach his grandchildren what they were taught. But the thing to remember is that most people don't think or act that way, at all, and that doesn't give people an excuse to put a label over the 'white man' for a few idiots' actions.

[Tag279]

One of the things I wonder is, in thirty-five years or so when whites will be in the minority, will there be a need for things like affirmative action and orchestrated diversity expansion efforts by public schools? Because once non-whites are in the majority, then shouldn't they not be at a disadvantage?

I personally feel that affirmative action should start to be waned out. I am in favor of it, I really am, but I think that within the next twenty years or so it will not be a necessity. During the past twenty years, it has been a necessity, simply because it has given many African Americans/ other non-whites a chance to pursue an education they may not have been granted otherwise. It gave many of them a chance at success (even if, grade-wise, they didn't necessarily deserve to go to Princeton). But we're seeing improvements in test scores among minorities in most cities across the country, we're seeing more and more minorities graduate high school and go off to college. Many of them are getting their feet in the doors, so-to-speak, which was really a fundamental goal of affirmative action to begin with.

So hopefully we can do away with affirmative action entirely within the next decade or so. Hopefully we won't need "minority scholarships" or things like that (side question: is that what they'll call those scholarships once non-whites are in the majority?). Hopefully we can end the epilogue to our society's great big race problem.

Jman it would be great if there was no need for affirmative action but like I said in my earlier post being non-white is veiwed as a detriment or a mark of inferiority by some.

However, I do think AA is on the way out the thing is now there is a level of legal recourse in many areas in responding to racial discrimination in employment, housing, and education.

Quotas have been gone for a long time now and it seems that socio-economic status plays more of a factor in "allowing a foot in the door" moreso than race. Because in most parts of the country racial discrimination is not tolerated; but, it is still out there alive and kicking.

[Matt]

I was actually just reading about this - By the year 2042, all caucasians will be the minority.

It's pretty interesting to think about it...

In all fairness though, isn't that a statistic that has been around since like, the 60s, people saying "in such and such time...whites will be a miniority?"

[Tag279]

You will always have that to deal with, though. There will always be some white guy in the middle of Mississippi who hates black people with a passion, who teaches his children to hate black people and then they teach his grandchildren what they were taught. But the thing to remember is that most people don't think or act that way, at all, and that doesn't give people an excuse to put a label over the 'white man' for a few idiots' actions.

Jman I agree with you completely.

It just seems those idiots you referred to are concetrated into various assorted small pockets around the country.

[The Senator]

Jman it would be great if there was no need for affirmative action but like I said in my earlier post being non-white is veiwed as a detriment or a mark of inferiority by some.

However, I do think AA is on the way out the thing is now there is a level of legal recourse in many areas in responding to racial discrimination in employment, housing, and education.

Quotas have been gone for a long time now and it seems that socio-economic status plays more of a factor in "allowing a foot in the door" moreso than race. Because in most parts of the country racial discrimination is not tolerated; but, it is still out there alive and kicking.

By some.

It is viewed as a mark of inferiority by some. Not by all, or even the bulk of society, which is why I feel affirmative action is becoming less and less relevant. In most cases, the racists who still have something against minorities are not in a position of power to determine the fates of these students anymore. We have set high standards and we have laws which prevent people like that from having a say in these sort of decisions.

I especially don't see why there will be a need for affirmative action once whites are in the minority. It is a minority-based program; but once the minority is no longer the minority, how is it relevant?

[Kelly]

By some.

It is viewed as a mark of inferiority by some. Not by all, or even the bulk of society, which is why I feel affirmative action is becoming less and less relevant. In most cases, the racists who still have something against minorities are not in a position of power to determine the fates of these students anymore. We have set high standards and we have laws which prevent people like that from having a say in these sort of decisions.

I especially don't see why there will be a need for affirmative action once whites are in the minority. It is a minority-based program; but once the minority is no longer the minority, how is it relevant?


Exactly, perfect example........the President of Texas A&M University (arguably the whitest, male college around) is a Hispanic Woman.........times are achangin'

[jaguarr]

By some.

It is viewed as a mark of inferiority by some. Not by all, or even the bulk of society, which is why I feel affirmative action is becoming less and less relevant. In most cases, the racists who still have something against minorities are not in a position of power to determine the fates of these students anymore. We have set high standards and we have laws which prevent people like that from having a say in these sort of decisions.

I especially don't see why there will be a need for affirmative action once whites are in the minority. It is a minority-based program; but once the minority is no longer the minority, how is it relevant?

<Devil's Advocate>Hmm...well, theoretically speaking, when whites become the minority, they would potentially need affirmative action to ensure that they are given equal opportunities for education and employment that they might not otherwise be afforded.</Devil's Advocate>


jag

[Marx]

In all fairness though, isn't that a statistic that has been around since like, the 60s, people saying "in such and such time...whites will be a miniority?"

Possibly, I don't know. I just thought it was an interesting point to add to the conversation.

[Tag279]

I especially don't see why there will be a need for affirmative action once whites are in the minority. It is a minority-based program; but once the minority is no longer the minority, how is it relevant?

It's not. But, what it comes down to is to who has the most power and influence.

[Matt]

<Devil's Advocate>Hmm...well, theoretically speaking, when whites become the minority, they would potentially need affirmative action to ensure that they are given equal opportunities for education and employment that they might not otherwise be afforded.</Devil's Advocate>


jag

I do not think so. Whites will be a minority, but if I'm not mistaken, that is only if you add up all other ethnicities, for example...say 49 % of the population is white, and then 51 % Latino, Asian, black, American Indian, etc. It really is a misleading statistic. Furthermore, whites will still have the power. Even if white people make up 49 % of the population, what will it matter if 75 % of the new majority live below the poverty line? Numbers will not equal power.

[Tag279]

I do not think so. Whites will be a minority, but if I'm not mistaken, that is only if you add up all other ethnicities, for example...say 49 % of the population is white, and then 51 % Latino, Asian, black, American Indian, etc. It really is a misleading statistic. Furthermore, whites will still have the power. Even if white people make up 49 % of the population, what will it matter if 75 % of the new majority live below the poverty line? Numbers will not equal power.

Matt although this is a bit disturbing...:woot:

You are exactly right numbers don't equal power unless the playing field is leveled.

Florida won the National championship because they had 12 skill players including both sides of the ball that had 4-4 speed or better.

[jaguarr]

I do not think so. Whites will be a minority, but if I'm not mistaken, that is only if you add up all other ethnicities, for example...say 49 % of the population is white, and then 51 % Latino, Asian, black, American Indian, etc. It really is a misleading statistic. Furthermore, whites will still have the power. Even if white people make up 49 % of the population, what will it matter if 75 % of the new majority live below the poverty line? Numbers will not equal power.

Then whites won't REALLY be a minority, then, will they? ;)

jag

[BlackLantern]

maybe you can get some guv'mint cheese out of the deal....

[jaguarr]

maybe you can get some guv'mint cheese out of the deal....

I'll make grilled cheese with my clothes iron. :up:

Of course, Matt's thoughts on the subject operate on the assumption that in the next thirty years, as people of color become the majority, there will be absolutely NO change in the wealth, education and power distribution; whites will retain all of those things in the next three decades.

jag

[Matt]

I'll make grilled cheese with my clothes iron. :up:

Of course, Matt's thoughts on the subject operate on the assumption that in the next thirty years, as people of color become the majority, there will be absolutely NO change in the wealth, education and power distribution; whites will retain all of those things in the next three decades.

jag

Its hard to picture such a massive change in about one generation's time.

[jaguarr]

Its hard to picture such a massive change in about one generation's time.

A massive change? Like, say...white's no longer being the majority in the country anymore? ;)

jag

[Tag279]

I'll make grilled cheese with my clothes iron. :up:

Of course, Matt's thoughts on the subject operate on the assumption that in the next thirty years, as people of color become the majority, there will be absolutely NO change in the wealth, education and power distribution; whites will retain all of those things in the next three decades.

jag

Its hard to picture such a massive change in about one generation's time.

But the perception is out there that when and if the population distribution changes that the country will be changed negatively. God forbid majority rule.

[Spider-Bite]

I wanted to bring this up and see what people thought.

In Houston, whites are now the Minority. Hispanics are not at a 50% majority.
Does this mean I can now "minority benefits" to colleges/scholorships and other things of that nature?

Your misunderstanding it. Your not the minority. You are still the largest group. It's just that when you add all of the smaller groups together, they add up to being bigger than the whites.

[Spider-Bite]

No,.. used to military food,... Denny's is a step up.




My irritation is that while this can happen to you,... it USUALLY doesn't. (No I don't personally know your schedule,.. I'm talking colored stats.)

It never matters as to whether I look for it or instigate an incident,... my life is full of my running into enough of this silliness to not wonder why weaker minds turn to violence after a few years of it.

I had been to this place many times before and this was the first time these two were alone together when I came in.

People take the tude that those of us who complain want "special" treatment when the reality is we just want equal treatment.

So many whites get "tired" of hearing it,... but they can't be bothered to hold their own to task for it.

In this case I voted with my wallet.

But I HATE depriving myself of something simply because someone else feels it's okay to be rude.

V.

You know I have a lot of african american friends. I'm white by the way. but whenever I'm out in public with them, my black friends, in a crowded place where my friends turn out to be the only non white people in the area, I always notice them getting stared at. Like evil hateful suspicous looks. It's easy to notice when your standing next to somebody, if people are staring at them.

It really pisses me off. I always knew there was a lot of racism in the world, but untill rescent years, I don't think I quite knew it, or realized 100% of what blacks go through even today. And it's not just old people. When I went back with one of my black friends to visit his home city, we went to a pool hall. It was crowded with about a hundred customers who ranged in age from late teens to early 20's. All of them white. Two of the people with me were black. And I kept noticing them getting stared at. Nobody said or did anything to them, and when people stared it was like they were trying not to let my friends see that they were staring, but they were.

This is EXACTLY why we need a more diverse America. Hell the whole world needs to be diversified. Exposure promotes tolerance, and makes people accustomed to others being different. My school is extremely diverse. It's about 40% white and 30% black, and the rest is a mixture of hispanics, muslims(yes the obvious head scarf wearing muslimsfemales covered from head to toe, asians, people with accents, and people without them. And the social environment is a mixed pot. Yeah you see whites hanging with whites and blacks hanging with blacks, but for the most part you also see diversified friend groups and circles. Everybody there is much more tolerant and accepting than in any other environment I've ever seen. I remember in my politics class when the teacher wanted a show of hands to see who supported gay marriage, and who didn't. A class of 30 kids. One of them raised their hand in protest to gay marriage. One out of 30. I also get the impression that gays there don't feel the need to stay in the closet. I know so many of them, who are just completely open about it. Not just girls, but gay guys can live without fear of being persecuted or picked on.

Diversity is the way to go. It's beuatiful!

[The Senator]

Tangent:

Gay people ought to learn to fend for themselves... a little muscle and the willingness to fight back never hurt.

Now back to our regularly-scheduled programming.

[Spider-Bite]

Tangent:

Gay people ought to learn to fend for themselves... a little muscle and the willingness to fight back never hurt.

Now back to our regularly-scheduled programming.

I truly believe that gays should not stay in the closet. It might be hard to come out, but they should, because as I said, exposure promotes tolerance. They are only letting the conservatives win, when they hide in secret.

Doesn't mean us straight folk, can't take their side and stand up for them though, afterall part of being liberal means standing up for those that need standing up for, and when the oppressors outnumber the oppressed at such a high rate as comparing the number of homosexuals to the number of religous nutsos in America, it's clear that gays will need our support.

[Marx]

I truly believe that gays should not stay in the closet. It might be hard to come out, but they should, because as I said, exposure promotes tolerance. They are only letting the conservatives win, when they hide in secret.

Doesn't mean us straight folk, can't take their side and stand up for them though, afterall part of being liberal means standing up for those that need standing up for, and when the oppressors outnumber the oppressed at such a high rate as comparing the number of homosexuals to the number of religous nutsos in America, it's clear that gays will need our support.

I think there's a little more to it than that Spider.

[Spider-Bite]

I think there's a little more to it than that Spider.

Well I know it can be hard, and I'm not saying they should be judged for not coming out, or accused of not helping the cause by staying in the closet.

but I think should. I know many feel like they can't, and I'm sure there are instances where the ramifications will simply be too severe, but for the most part I would encourage them to come out.

And I know there is more to promoting acceptance than just exposure, but it's an important part of the solution.

[The Senator]

I truly believe that gays should not stay in the closet. It might be hard to come out, but they should, because as I said, exposure promotes tolerance. They are only letting the conservatives win, when they hide in secret.

Doesn't mean us straight folk, can't take their side and stand up for them though, afterall part of being liberal means standing up for those that need standing up for, and when the oppressors outnumber the oppressed at such a high rate as comparing the number of homosexuals to the number of religous nutsos in America, it's clear that gays will need our support.

What you would like to see, and what gay people actually go through, is a lot more difficult than what you describe. I would love more than anything for straight America to accept gays unanimously. And even if that was the case, if every gay person could come out of the closet knowing they would have no opposition, that still wouldn't make it any easier for these men and women. Coming out is about discovering who you are, realizing that you are like this and that there is nothing you can do about it. People have to be ready to come out to themselves first and foremost, and that is really the hardest part of the entire process.

Once they do come out, they can take solace in knowing that while there are whack jobs out there who will try to prevent them from living the lives they want, they still have the freedom to live the way they want to. Nothing prevents two gay men from walking down a street, holding hands or kissing in public. Nothing. And that's what I really love about this country, is that morons can say things and try to get laws passed, but nothing prevents these people from living the lives they want to live except for their own inhibitions.

[Marx]

What you would like to see, and what gay people actually go through, is a lot more difficult than what you describe. I would love more than anything for straight America to accept gays unanimously. And even if that was the case, if every gay person could come out of the closet knowing they would have no opposition, that still wouldn't make it any easier for these men and women. Coming out is about discovering who you are, realizing that you are like this and that there is nothing you can do about it. People have to be ready to come out to themselves first and foremost, and that is really the hardest part of the entire process.

Once they do come out, they can take solace in knowing that while there are whack jobs out there who will try to prevent them from living the lives they want, they still have the freedom to live the way they want to. Nothing prevents two gay men from walking down a street, holding hands or kissing in public. Nothing. And that's what I really love about this country, is that morons can say things and try to get laws passed, but nothing prevents these people from living the lives they want to live except for their own inhibitions.

I think those inhibitions are well founded. True acceptance, and the ability to do as you describe, largely depends on your location in the country.

[The Senator]

I think those inhibitions are well founded. True acceptance, and the ability to do as you describe, largely depends on your location in the country.

No, it does not. Not entirely, at least.

People can and have come out all over this country. Many gay people have lived happily ever after in places like Mobile, Alabama and Jackson, Mississippi. The problem is your own willingness to say "Screw these ass holes, I'm living for myself."

If you come across a gay basher who physically assaults you, have him arrested. If it still happens, punch him back. If you continue to have extreme problems, MOVE. I've always said that the dumbest thing a gay person can do is live in a place where he or she will not be accepted by more than just a quiet minority.

Moreover, the idea that if we continue to pass laws or promote acceptance of gays will serve as an instant cure is downright laughable. It has been sixty years since the Civil Rights Movement, and African Americans are still being treated like inhumane monsters in certain parts of the country. And that was over a silly, unpreventable thing called 'skin color.' What makes anyone thing that people who hate gays or are against homosexuality are going to change their views instantaneously? It isn't going to happen. But again... that's beside my point, which is coming out to oneself and deciding to live life despite what your opponents think is the most important part of being a gay American.

[Spider-Bite]

[quote=jmanspice;15491594]What you would like to see, and what gay people actually go through, is a lot more difficult than what you describe. I would love more than anything for straight America to accept gays unanimously. And even if that was the case, if every gay person could come out of the closet knowing they would have no opposition, that still wouldn't make it any easier for these men and women. Coming out is about discovering who you are, realizing that you are like this and that there is nothing you can do about it. People have to be ready to come out to themselves first and foremost, and that is really the hardest part of the entire process.

No if every American was accepting it would make a difference in a lot of situations, such as my sister's gay friend who's brother beat his ass for coming out of the closet. I'm not gay, and I know I haven't personally witnessed the worse of what gays go through, but I have seen some difficult stuff. My sister is a lesbian. While growing up in secret, she listened to members of her own family talk about how they should all be lined up and shot, and how they will all burn in hell, they aren't natural and so on. She is now an adult, and she has a lot of problems. I don't want to share the personal details, but this definitely had a negative effect on her, and I was witness to it all.


A person with a secular family surrounded by secular class mates and peers, is going to have an easier time than somebody who thinks everybody is going to hate them. Hell a few years ago in texas gay men were getting charged with sex crimes and thrown in prison for having gay sex with each other. It's definitely easier to admit your gay, when your admission wont be held against you in a court of law.



Once they do come out, they can take solace in knowing that while there are whack jobs out there who will try to prevent them from living the lives they want, they still have the freedom to live the way they want to. Nothing prevents two gay men from walking down a street, holding hands or kissing in public. Nothing. And that's what I really love about this country, is that morons can say things and try to get laws passed, but nothing prevents these people from living the lives they want to live except for their own inhibitions.

Not quite. A few years ago, if two men were walking down the streets holding hands in Texas, they'd have been investigated and handcuffed. Gays do not get to marry in most states, and look at the Don't ask Don't tell policy in the military. There is a lot more than inhibitions holding them back. In fact the overwhelming majority of gays are not legally allowed to live their life as they choose, when it comes to adoption and marriage.

the country is getting there, but it's about 20 years away from it.

[Marx]

No, it does not. Not entirely, at least.

People can and have come out all over this country. Many gay people have lived happily ever after in places like Mobile, Alabama and Jackson, Mississippi. The problem is your own willingness to say "Screw these ass holes, I'm living for myself."

I know people have come out all across the country. I'm just saying that there are parts of this country where you can't be as open as you would like to be. You could be severely beaten or killed by showing an ounce of affection.


If you come across a gay basher who physically assaults you, have him arrested. If it still happens, punch him back. If you continue to have extreme problems, MOVE. I've always said that the dumbest thing a gay person can do is live in a place where he or she will not be accepted by more than just a quiet minority.

I would agree with you...but up and leaving isn't the easiet thing to do.


Moreover, the idea that if we continue to pass laws or promote acceptance of gays will serve as an instant cure is downright laughable. It has been sixty years since the Civil Rights Movement, and African Americans are still being treated like inhumane monsters in certain parts of the country. And that was over a silly, unpreventable thing called 'skin color.' What makes anyone thing that people who hate gays or are against homosexuality are going to change their views instantaneously? It isn't going to happen. But again... that's beside my point, which is coming out to oneself and deciding to live life despite what your opponents think is the most important part of being a gay American.

Again, I couldn't agree more.

[Spider-Bite]

No, it does not. Not entirely, at least.

People can and have come out all over this country. Many gay people have lived happily ever after in places like Mobile, Alabama and Jackson, Mississippi. The problem is your own willingness to say "Screw these ass holes, I'm living for myself."

If you come across a gay basher who physically assaults you, have him arrested. If it still happens, punch him back. If you continue to have extreme problems, MOVE. I've always said that the dumbest thing a gay person can do is live in a place where he or she will not be accepted by more than just a quiet minority.

Moreover, the idea that if we continue to pass laws or promote acceptance of gays will serve as an instant cure is downright laughable. It has been sixty years since the Civil Rights Movement, and African Americans are still being treated like inhumane monsters in certain parts of the country. And that was over a silly, unpreventable thing called 'skin color.' What makes anyone thing that people who hate gays or are against homosexuality are going to change their views instantaneously? It isn't going to happen. But again... that's beside my point, which is coming out to oneself and deciding to live life despite what your opponents think is the most important part of being a gay American.

dude it is extremely difficult to just pack up your life and leave. It's difficult and costly to travel back and forth to get a place to live and a job set up for when you get there, not to mention leaving everything you ever knew behind. It's way difficult.

And they shouldn't have to, and they shouldn't be expected to. I do not expect them to run from those people. They should stay. The super conservative people need to be exposed to different kinds of people. They should stay there and say "I'm different, but I don't deserve to be treated differently" Make friends and promote acceptance there to help gays from future generations have an easier life.

I don't think anybody here is claiming that there is any isntant cure. It's going to be a very gradual and generational process as it has been. Promoting acceptance and passing equality laws will help. It's very neccessary and just.

[The Senator]

[QUOTE]

No if every American was accepting it would make a difference in a lot of situations, such as my sister's gay friend who's brother beat his ass for coming out of the closet. I'm not gay, and I know I haven't personally witnessed the worse of what gays go through, but I have seen some difficult stuff. My sister is a lesbian. While growing up in secret, she listened to members of her own family talk about how they should all be lined up and shot, and how they will all burn in hell, they aren't natural and so on. She is now an adult, and she has a lot of problems. I don't want to share the personal details, but this definitely had a negative effect on her, and I was witness to it all.


A person with a secular family surrounded by secular class mates and peers, is going to have an easier time than somebody who thinks everybody is going to hate them. Hell a few years ago in texas gay men were getting charged with sex crimes and thrown in prison for having gay sex with each other. It's definitely easier to admit your gay, when your admission wont be held against you in a court of law.

I never said that gays don't have severe problems like that. But you know what? They have to deal with it. And one way to deal with an abusive family, who won't accept who you are, is to rid your life of them. Maybe I'm lucky I have never been in that situation. Maybe this is just the Brian Kinney (forty gazillion bonus points for whoever gets that) in me talking-- but never the less, it is more important for gay men and women to take matters into their own hands when dealing with situations which will cause more pain than it is worth.

People can spend years worrying why their parents or family won't accept them, spending nights alone crying about it. But at the end of the day, increasing the awareness of homosexuals won't change a thing. I support educating the world about the plight of GLBT individuals. But all the education and awareness in the world won't change someone's opinion of somebody on the basis of skin color, gender, nationality or sexual orientation. So, what you do is say "screw them" and move on. It will be difficult, trying, exhausting-- but it will be worth it, in the end, to rid oneself of the misery caused by others.



Not quite. A few years ago, if two men were walking down the streets holding hands in Texas, they'd have been investigated and handcuffed. Gays do not get to marry in most states, and look at the Don't ask Don't tell policy in the military. There is a lot more than inhibitions holding them back. In fact the overwhelming majority of gays are not legally allowed to live their life as they choose, when it comes to adoption and marriage.

the country is getting there, but it's about 20 years away from it.

I am perfectly aware of the laws which were on the books in Texas a few years back. And I would like the repeat a crucial point in that sentence: were. They no longer exist, which means a gay man can walk down the street in Austin and give his boyfriend the biggest kiss ever imaginable and there is n.o.t.h.i.n.g. which can be done to stop it.

The Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy sucks tremendously, but a gay man does not need the military to be perfectly happy. A gay man does not need marriage to be perfectly happy, or adoption. And if they do, there are states he can move to to fulfill those last two dreams.

I wish DADT would be off the books, but I highly doubt that will be a priority by any president or Congress until it is too late.

[The Senator]

dude it is extremely difficult to just pack up your life and leave. It's difficult and costly to travel back and forth to get a place to live and a job set up for when you get there, not to mention leaving everything you ever knew behind. It's way difficult.

And they shouldn't have to, and they shouldn't be expected to. I do not expect them to run from those people. They should stay. The super conservative people need to be exposed to different kinds of people. They should stay there and say "I'm different, but I don't deserve to be treated differently" Make friends and promote acceptance there to help gays from future generations have an easier life.

I don't think anybody here is claiming that there is any isntant cure. It's going to be a very gradual and generational process as it has been. Promoting acceptance and passing equality laws will help. It's very neccessary and just.

I told you that gay men and women across this country have lived happy, serene lives in places you wouldn't expect them to live. And I just told you that, regardless of where they live, people will hate them regardless of how many public service announcements are put up or how many high schools teach children about GLBT lifestyles. Nothing can be done to change these peoples' opinions.

And, as far as I'm concerned, the super conservative people have just as much a right to hate gays as gays have a right to hold hands in public. Awareness has already started to spread, each generation is getting more and more liberal as we speak and I expect near universal tolerance by the time I'm on my death bed. But again, nothing can be done to change the way some people think and gays have to take action upon themselves to change how they react to this hatred and how they are going to deal with it. If it means packing up and moving from Tupelo to Denver, so be it. I was able to move from a conservative area to the District several years ago, and after two years out I was able to say "**** that, I'm not going back." If it gets to be too much, they may have no choice in the matter, because those people are not going to accept them regardless of what kind of laws or awareness campaigns are launched.

[Spider-Bite]

[quote=Spider-Bite;15491684]

I never said that gays don't have severe problems like that. But you know what? They have to deal with it. And one way to deal with an abusive family, who won't accept who you are, is to rid your life of them. Maybe I'm lucky I have never been in that situation. Maybe this is just the Brian Kinney (forty gazillion bonus points for whoever gets that) in me talking-- but never the less, it is more important for gay men and women to take matters into their own hands when dealing with situations which will cause more pain than it is worth.

People can spend years worrying why their parents or family won't accept them, spending nights alone crying about it. But at the end of the day, increasing the awareness of homosexuals won't change a thing. I support educating the world about the plight of GLBT individuals. But all the education and awareness in the world won't change someone's opinion of somebody on the basis of skin color, gender, nationality or sexual orientation. So, what you do is say "screw them" and move on. It will be difficult, trying, exhausting-- but it will be worth it, in the end, to rid oneself of the misery caused by others.




I am perfectly aware of the laws which were on the books in Texas a few years back. And I would like the repeat a crucial point in that sentence: were. They no longer exist, which means a gay man can walk down the street in Austin and give his boyfriend the biggest kiss ever imaginable and there is n.o.t.h.i.n.g. which can be done to stop it.

The Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy sucks tremendously, but a gay man does not need the military to be perfectly happy. A gay man does not need marriage to be perfectly happy, or adoption. And if they do, there are states he can move to to fulfill those last two dreams.

I wish DADT would be off the books, but I highly doubt that will be a priority by any president or Congress until it is too late.

the thing is here that I don't think you truly understand the challenges that exist in different circumstances, or how difficult it is to just turn your back on your family. once she came out of the closet many members of the family did accept her, but that was years too late. Not to mention a lot of times people are forced to stick with their families for financial reasons. and if you stick with one family member, such as your parent, than your bound to run into the rest of the family on a regular basis.

but looka t what you said about don't ask don't tell. what if somebody actually wants to serve in the military? I'm just saying they can't simply live their life however they want to, as you put it. there are things holding them back. I know you don't want them to be oppressed, but they are.

One thing I simply admit to myself, which I find very valuable, is that it's simply hard to adequately put yourself in somebody else's shoes, therefore we should be less judgemental, about what that person "could have, should have or didn't do" or what we think we would have done.

I think some of your feeling towards gays, are kind of like juding a teenager for not sending their father to prison for molesting her when she was a kid, even though she might have had thousands of thoughts running through her head, about it tearing up the family, or her mother and siblings not having a place to live, without him bringing home the bacon, or what if people don't believe her, or even the fact that she might still care about the person, because it's the only father she ever had. People might say the girl is stupid for not hating the sick man, but the girl can't help it.

And then when the girl gets older and turns to drugs, everybody calls her a loser, and says it's her own damn fault, even though being molested makes you a lot more likely to be a abuser, drug addict, prostitute, drop out, or an inmate.

basically I'm saying life is hard, and I don't say "get over it" I say were all in this together, and we all need to take care of each other.

[Spider-Bite]

[quote=jmanspice;15491769]I told you that gay men and women across this country have lived happy, serene lives in places you wouldn't expect them to live. And I just told you that, regardless of where they live, people will hate them regardless of how many public service announcements are put up or how many high schools teach children about GLBT lifestyles. Nothing can be done to change these peoples' opinions.


I agree with all almost all of that. I admit some people are stubborn and will never change, however many will change. You know I used to be a pretty religous person, and I did accept the whole "gays are sinners just for being gay" thing, even though I always had doubts about that, even as a very young child. When I was 16, and I was learning about evolution, that first got me questioning the bible. At 17 I had a gay teacher, who I became good friends with. He was a good man who really cared about his students.

The combination of education, including health class, science, exposure, and people making convincing preachy arguments about acceptance, as well as the morality I picked up from star trek when I was younger, definitely had a liberal effect on me. It worked. Learning about how hormones effect a person is really enough for a lot of people to know, this is not a choice for them. It's nature.

[Marx]

I agree with all almost all of that. I admit some people are stubborn and will never change, however many will change. You know I used to be a pretty religous person, and I did accept the whole "gays are sinners just for being gay" thing, even though I always had doubts about that, even as a very young child. When I was 16, and I was learning about evolution, that first got me questioning the bible. At 17 I had a gay teacher, who I became good friends with. He was a good man who really cared about his students.

The combination of education, including health class, science, exposure, and people making convincing preachy arguments about acceptance, as well as the morality I picked up from star trek when I was younger, definitely had a liberal effect on me. It worked. Learning about how hormones effect a person is really enough for a lot of people to know, this is not a choice for them. It's nature.

I'm glad to hear that you changed your views on that.

[The Senator]

the thing is here that I don't think you truly understand the challenges that exist in different circumstances, or how difficult it is to just turn your back on your family. once she came out of the closet many members of the family did accept her, but that was years too late. Not to mention a lot of times people are forced to stick with their families for financial reasons. and if you stick with one family member, such as your parent, than your bound to run into the rest of the family on a regular basis.

but looka t what you said about don't ask don't tell. what if somebody actually wants to serve in the military? I'm just saying they can't simply live their life however they want to, as you put it. there are things holding them back. I know you don't want them to be oppressed, but they are.

One thing I simply admit to myself, which I find very valuable, is that it's simply hard to adequately put yourself in somebody else's shoes, therefore we should be less judgemental, about what that person "could have, should have or didn't do" or what we think we would have done.

I think some of your feeling towards gays, are kind of like juding a teenager for not sending their father to prison for molesting her when she was a kid, even though she might have had thousands of thoughts running through her head, about it tearing up the family, or her mother and siblings not having a place to live, without him bringing home the bacon, or what if people don't believe her, or even the fact that she might still care about the person, because it's the only father she ever had. People might say the girl is stupid for not hating the sick man, but the girl can't help it.

And then when the girl gets older and turns to drugs, everybody calls her a loser, and says it's her own damn fault, even though being molested makes you a lot more likely to be a abuser, drug addict, prostitute, drop out, or an inmate.

basically I'm saying life is hard, and I don't say "get over it" I say were all in this together, and we all need to take care of each other.

I understand the challenges which exist in different circumstances. But none of the examples you listed are good enough reasons to deal with abusive surroundings.

Finances? Grow up and take care of yourself. It is blunt, it is insensitive, but that is what you do when you get older. In my twenties, I have yet to ask my parents for money. I have yet to need money from them. And no, my experiences are not the sole example in the world to live by. People need money, people need assistance from their parents... but then, at that point, if they're going to hold you on a leash made of money, what does it help? Cutting that leash may be the worst thing you can do momentarily. It could create years of pain and start a chain reaction which would send you on the worst downward spiral imaginable. But at the same time, would staying in such a situation be beneficial, at all?

As I said, if it is intolerance you have to deal with, there may be no easy answer. You can live a life in misery conforming to the standards set by others or spend a life in misery knowing that you have peace of mind. It isn't an easy choice-- it is a difficult process and a difficult decision to make. And sometimes misery isn't twofold, sometimes you can be perfectly happy deciding to live a life of lies or perfectly happy without the company of those you love. And you can even be happy in the first scenario and thereby get rid of the second.

As for the military... you don't need the military to be happy. You don't need to be open about it. I want gays to be able to serve openly so they don't have to live years shrouded by a lie. But again, if a gay person adamantly wants to defend this country, right now they simply have to be dishonest to their peers. Considering dishonesty has plagued the military for the past six years, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary.

And again, I will be insensitive for a moment and say that the girl who was molested by her father was an idiot. She doesn't want to destroy the family? Well, that's her choice to make. She can put herself in a situation to be abused for years and years, but ultimately the prolonged pain and suffering which fell on to herself was her fault considering there was a way to put an end to it.

NEXT... "get over it" isn't a philosophy I hold true to my heart. It is the backdrop for a much greater philosophy of mine, which involves finding oneself and making decisions. Decisions are not intended to be easy all of the time, and if you go your entire life making easy decisions you will not learn a damn thing. Some times it takes a difficult decision to release you from all the problems you face. Cutting ties with people, confronting their ignorance head on, living the life the way you want to-- those are difficult decisions which ultimately may have amazing consequences.

[imdaly]

Man, I remember when only a few hundred years ago the Native Americans were the majority...

[rdh007]

Man, I remember when only a few hundred years ago the Native Americans were the majority...
Wait a tick, you can remember a few hundred years ago? You must look like this:
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee144/rdh007/richard_alpert.jpg

[imdaly]

Shhhhhhh.... ;)

[Spider-Bite]

I understand the challenges which exist in different circumstances. But none of the examples you listed are good enough reasons to deal with abusive surroundings.

Finances? Grow up and take care of yourself. It is blunt, it is insensitive, but that is what you do when you get older. In my twenties, I have yet to ask my parents for money. I have yet to need money from them. And no, my experiences are not the sole example in the world to live by. People need money, people need assistance from their parents... but then, at that point, if they're going to hold you on a leash made of money, what does it help? Cutting that leash may be the worst thing you can do momentarily. It could create years of pain and start a chain reaction which would send you on the worst downward spiral imaginable. But at the same time, would staying in such a situation be beneficial, at all?

As I said, if it is intolerance you have to deal with, there may be no easy answer. You can live a life in misery conforming to the standards set by others or spend a life in misery knowing that you have peace of mind. It isn't an easy choice-- it is a difficult process and a difficult decision to make. And sometimes misery isn't twofold, sometimes you can be perfectly happy deciding to live a life of lies or perfectly happy without the company of those you love. And you can even be happy in the first scenario and thereby get rid of the second.

As for the military... you don't need the military to be happy. You don't need to be open about it. I want gays to be able to serve openly so they don't have to live years shrouded by a lie. But again, if a gay person adamantly wants to defend this country, right now they simply have to be dishonest to their peers. Considering dishonesty has plagued the military for the past six years, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary.

And again, I will be insensitive for a moment and say that the girl who was molested by her father was an idiot. She doesn't want to destroy the family? Well, that's her choice to make. She can put herself in a situation to be abused for years and years, but ultimately the prolonged pain and suffering which fell on to herself was her fault considering there was a way to put an end to it.

NEXT... "get over it" isn't a philosophy I hold true to my heart. It is the backdrop for a much greater philosophy of mine, which involves finding oneself and making decisions. Decisions are not intended to be easy all of the time, and if you go your entire life making easy decisions you will not learn a damn thing. Some times it takes a difficult decision to release you from all the problems you face. Cutting ties with people, confronting their ignorance head on, living the life the way you want to-- those are difficult decisions which ultimately may have amazing consequences.
One thing to keep in mind is that often times, when a child grows up thinking their family hates them, it has a severely negative impact on who they grow up to be, so while one person might do just fine in life, be very productive, go on to college and be an upstanding member of society, a person who is mentally damaged might grow up to be quite different, where their daily life is consumed by depression, which holds them back from moving up in the world or doing anything good with their life.

That is why not being prejudice in the first place makes such a strong difference in somebody's life. That is why diversity can be so valuable as well, because it can help people fit in, and find comfort in their life.

[The Senator]

One thing to keep in mind is that often times, when a child grows up thinking their family hates them, it has a severely negative impact on who they grow up to be, so while one person might do just fine in life, be very productive, go on to college and be an upstanding member of society, a person who is mentally damaged might grow up to be quite different, where their daily life is consumed by depression, which holds them back from moving up in the world or doing anything good with their life.

That is why not being prejudice in the first place makes such a strong difference in somebody's life. That is why diversity can be so valuable as well, because it can help people fit in, and find comfort in their life.

But that is besides the point. It doesn't matter how many public service announcements are put out, or what is taught to high school students... if people are going to hate gays, they will no matter what. Parents who strongly object to homosexuality are unlikely to change their views if they're stubborn about it. Education isn't going to magically change things, neither is having a gay son or daughter.

And again, it is up to that person to conquer their own depression. That is where the ball is in their court. Nothing they will ever do will change what other people think of them. They have to figure out how to get over it, and do what is necessary to combat their emotional failings. I've had tumultuous times in my family and I sought counseling and drugs to get over it. But I also made a series of difficult decisions along the way to help me get through it, and I rose above abuse to get where I am today. So I think that if I can do it, with little money and very few resources, anyone can.

[Kelly]

But that is besides the point. It doesn't matter how many public service announcements are put out, or what is taught to high school students... if people are going to hate gays, they will no matter what. Parents who strongly object to homosexuality are unlikely to change their views if they're stubborn about it. Education isn't going to magically change things, neither is having a gay son or daughter.

And again, it is up to that person to conquer their own depression. That is where the ball is in their court. Nothing they will ever do will change what other people think of them. They have to figure out how to get over it, and do what is necessary to combat their emotional failings. I've had tumultuous times in my family and I sought counseling and drugs to get over it. But I also made a series of difficult decisions along the way to help me get through it, and I rose above abuse to get where I am today. So I think that if I can do it, with little money and very few resources, anyone can.


I worked for a church in Downtown Dallas for 2 years. Our pastor counseled many people who wanted to tell their parents that they were homosexual, but were afraid. I typed many, many letters, and held hands during phone calls. This church, BTW, was a Methodist church, that happened to be in the middle of the 2nd largest homosexual community in the country. That is why they came to this church. We did not have ONE family that turned their son/daughter away, and several, several let them know that they would do what they needed to do to welcome them home....some of these people kept in touch with us, and many of those families idea of homosexuality was indeed changed. Some, said they loved their child, no matter what. But, many spoke of how their families changed in their thinking. Does it happen all the time, no......but we could say that on several issues with families, not just homosexuality.

[BlackLantern]

...but for every story of a family being welcoming, there is a story of someone who comes out and spends the rest of their lives ostracized by their family....or cast out all together...

[Kelly]

...but for every story of a family being welcoming, there is a story of someone who comes out and spends the rest of their lives ostracized by their family....or cast out all together...

I agree, but not in my personal history of these issues...

[Asteroid-Man]

Well, would you be a minority to the school you'd apply for a scholorship with? A minority to the workplace you want a discount off of? I think that's the main concern.

[Varient]

Deep convo.

[Tag279]

Well, would you be a minority to the school you'd apply for a scholorship with? A minority to the workplace you want a discount off of? I think that's the main concern.

Your going to clarify that one. :huh:

Like I said on an ealier post HBCU's regularly award and offer scholarships to non-black students.

We all need to work toward the day that a person's color will not be held or used against them. We may never get there but we need to continue to work toward that end.

[Kelly]

Your going to clarify that one. :huh:

Like I said on an ealier post HBCU's regularly award and offer scholarships to non-black students.

We all need to work toward the day that a person's color will not be held or used against them. We may never get there but we need to continue to work toward that end.


Don't hold your breath for clarification. He's a hit and run poster here....:cwink:

[Spider-Bite]

[quote=jmanspice;15494627]But that is besides the point. It doesn't matter how many public service announcements are put out, or what is taught to high school students... if people are going to hate gays, they will no matter what. Parents who strongly object to homosexuality are unlikely to change their views if they're stubborn about it. Education isn't going to magically change things, neither is having a gay son or daughter.

It's less about changing the views of old people alive today. by protesting and voicing your support for people, you effect the youth, who are the future. Young people are not old and set in their ways.

And having a gay son or daughter, teacher, friend, or even grandaughter can change people. When I mentioned my sister who is a lesbian, and the things her family said, well one of the people saying those awful things about lesbians was her grandmother. When she saw the depression, and suffering that bigotry caused her grandaughter whom she had loved for 18 years, she realized that was she had been doing was wrong, and that innocent people do suffer because of it. Today she still loves her granddaughter, temporarily gave her a place to live, and even voted in favor of same sex marriage in 06, when the marriage ammendmant was on the ballot.

Now if only I could convince her that there is nothing wrong with a woman being President.


And again, it is up to that person to conquer their own depression. That is where the ball is in their court. Nothing they will ever do will change what other people think of them. They have to figure out how to get over it, and do what is necessary to combat their emotional failings. I've had tumultuous times in my family and I sought counseling and drugs to get over it. But I also made a series of difficult decisions along the way to help me get through it, and I rose above abuse to get where I am today. So I think that if I can do it, with little money and very few resources, anyone can.
It is up to that person to conquer their own depression, although she can't do it on her own. She will need help, but first she has to be willing to accept it, and make the changes in her life necessary, to move forward, which she is not doing at the moment. She is basically trapped in a cycle of depression, with an abusive partner.

However what a person does and how they cat, can effect what other people think of them, just as the Bush policies have effected what many muslims think of Americans. Our own Intelligence agencies said a while back that Alquida was using resentment over the Iraq war as a way to recruit jihadists. That just goes to show that actions do have an effect on prejudice.

sometimes it helps to reach out with kindness to those who hate you, and show them that you are not all that bad. Just like Martin Luther King stood up and said protest peacefully, and not violently. I don't doubt that Malcom X's actions only made whites who were just coming into their own, still unsure to be accepting or go with their parents generation, more likely to be prejudice.

Decades later, who got a holiday named after him?

[The Senator]

But you keep missing my point, that people can live a life in happiness without having to rely on other people. There is no need for a member of the GLBT community to spend years of his or her life whining about the prejudices he or she faces, when they can go out and meet people who share the same lifestyle they do and not have a reason to worry about it. They can say "**** the world, I don't care what they think" which is what most gay people have been doing for decades. It is essential that someone can do that, that is the most essential part of the coming out process and everything else is secondary to that crucial first step. Education, extended rights, etc. is not as important as realizing that 1) many people out there hate you, and 2) it doesn't matter what they think as long as you are happy.

[Tag279]

[quote]

It's less about changing the views of old people alive today. by protesting and voicing your support for people, you effect the youth, who are the future. Young people are not old and set in their ways.

And having a gay son or daughter, teacher, friend, or even grandaughter can change people. When I mentioned my sister who is a lesbian, and the things her family said, well one of the people saying those awful things about lesbians was her grandmother. When she saw the depression, and suffering that bigotry caused her grandaughter whom she had loved for 18 years, she realized that was she had been doing was wrong, and that innocent people do suffer because of it. Today she still loves her granddaughter, temporarily gave her a place to live, and even voted in favor of same sex marriage in 06, when the marriage ammendmant was on the ballot.

Now if only I could convince her that there is nothing wrong with a woman being President.


It is up to that person to conquer their own depression, although she can't do it on her own. She will need help, but first she has to be willing to accept it, and make the changes in her life necessary, to move forward, which she is not doing at the moment. She is basically trapped in a cycle of depression, with an abusive partner.

However what a person does and how they cat, can effect what other people think of them, just as the Bush policies have effected what many muslims think of Americans. Our own Intelligence agencies said a while back that Alquida was using resentment over the Iraq war as a way to recruit jihadists. That just goes to show that actions do have an effect on prejudice.

sometimes it helps to reach out with kindness to those who hate you, and show them that you are not all that bad. Just like Martin Luther King stood up and said protest peacefully, and not violently. I don't doubt that Malcom X's actions only made whites who were just coming into their own, still unsure to be accepting or go with their parents generation, more likely to be prejudice.

Decades later, who got a holiday named after him?

Good post :up:

However, Malcom X changed his views to be more tolerant and accepting the last 2-years of his life before he was assasinated in 1965.

He was assasinated by members of the Nation of Islam that he separated from three years earlier.

[Arkady Rossovich]

I wanted to bring this up and see what people thought.

In Houston, whites are now the Minority. Hispanics are not at a 50% majority.
Does this mean I can now "minority benefits" to colleges/scholorships and other things of that nature?

For the first time since America was founded by the English in the 1600's whites are not the majority race. Some might be scared by this,because I have heard that the whites as a whole..will be a minority by 2042.

Personally..I don't like it. If the Americans had the boarder at Mexico,this could have been dampered somewhat. I can imagine there will be some die hard white people who will try to stop this.

[Spider-Bite]

But you keep missing my point, that people can live a life in happiness without having to rely on other people. There is no need for a member of the GLBT community to spend years of his or her life whining about the prejudices he or she faces, when they can go out and meet people who share the same lifestyle they do and not have a reason to worry about it. They can say "**** the world, I don't care what they think" which is what most gay people have been doing for decades. It is essential that someone can do that, that is the most essential part of the coming out process and everything else is secondary to that crucial first step. Education, extended rights, etc. is not as important as realizing that 1) many people out there hate you, and 2) it doesn't matter what they think as long as you are happy.

I prefer activism over saying f the world, I don't care what they think. Even if you are happy, you can still fight for the happiness of others.

And this is a republic/democracy, if you want laws passed your going to have to do something about it. A lot of people are like rocks, but a lot of people are capable of change and thinking.

A really good example from my personal life, is my mother. She used to be very racist against blacks, but we lived in the ghetto. I had no white friends. Eventually we moved out of the ghetto, but my two best friends were still black. These guys protected me. There were a lot of instances where I would have gotten hurt, but these guys protected me. That definitely had a big impact on my mother. A few years later, when we moved again, my half mexican sister was the only non white kid in her grade level, and she actually got picked on, and called pocahontas, and all kinds of racial taunting.

That was enough for my mother to realize how stupid it was to be prejudice against a race.

Awareness, campaigns to promote acceptance, and exposure do have a very positive effect on social progress. Mostly exposure, because you then end up with friends from that group, which open your eyes and make it hard to remain prejudice. But awareness and education do help people learn from the mistakes of previous generations.

A really good thing to take into consideration is that if I had been born in texas 50 years ago, chances are I'd have a completely different outlook on things, because the people around me would have influenced how I grew up.

[Spider-Bite]

For the first time since America was founded by the English in the 1600's whites are not the majority race. Some might be scared by this,because I have heard that the whites as a whole..will be a minority by 2042.

Personally..I don't like it. If the Americans had the boarder at Mexico,this could have been dampered somewhat. I can imagine there will be some die hard white people who will try to stop this.

What don't you like about it? Personally I could care less about the color make up of America.

Well actually I do care about it, because I want it to be more diverse. I don't believe this is the land of the whites, with supreme ownership over this country.

[Tag279]

For the first time since America was founded by the English in the 1600's whites are not the majority race. Some might be scared by this,because I have heard that the whites as a whole..will be a minority by 2042.

Personally..I don't like it. If the Americans had the boarder at Mexico,this could have been dampered somewhat. I can imagine there will be some die hard white people who will try to stop this.

I guess they want us to get on a boat and leave? My family has been in this country since the late 1700s. They were slaves but they were still Natural Born U.S. citizens.

What don't you like about it? Personally I could care less about the color make up of America.

Well actually I do care about it, because I want it to be more diverse. I don't believe this is the land of the whites, with supreme ownership over this country.

You posted a page-full well said.:up:

[The Senator]

I prefer activism over saying f the world, I don't care what they think. Even if you are happy, you can still fight for the happiness of others.

And this is a republic/democracy, if you want laws passed your going to have to do something about it. A lot of people are like rocks, but a lot of people are capable of change and thinking.

A really good example from my personal life, is my mother. She used to be very racist against blacks, but we lived in the ghetto. I had no white friends. Eventually we moved out of the ghetto, but my two best friends were still black. These guys protected me. There were a lot of instances where I would have gotten hurt, but these guys protected me. That definitely had a big impact on my mother. A few years later, when we moved again, my half mexican sister was the only non white kid in her grade level, and she actually got picked on, and called pocahontas, and all kinds of racial taunting.

That was enough for my mother to realize how stupid it was to be prejudice against a race.

Awareness, campaigns to promote acceptance, and exposure do have a very positive effect on social progress. Mostly exposure, because you then end up with friends from that group, which open your eyes and make it hard to remain prejudice. But awareness and education do help people learn from the mistakes of previous generations.

A really good thing to take into consideration is that if I had been born in texas 50 years ago, chances are I'd have a completely different outlook on things, because the people around me would have influenced how I grew up.

SIGH.

You are missing the point, yet. again. I did not ever say that activism wasn't important or that education wasn't important; I said that realizing who you are is the most important step which a member of the GLBT community can ever take. There are no guarantees in this world, none. Hoping that a law will be changed can waste years of one's life; and as a result, you have to face the possibility that you might lose and that things will stay the way they are now. Which is why you have to be willing to understand yourself, be willing to say "**** this, I don't care what they think" before you can do anything else. Otherwise your life has the potential to be filled with disappointment after disappointment. People who are so naive as to think that everything will be a bouquet of pretty flowers and that queers and bigots will get along swimmingly in [x] number of years are going to crash hard once a pin goes through that little hope-filled balloon they've been living on.

That's why self-realization is the most important step in the coming out process, that's why being able to turn your back on the world outside of your people is the best thing anyone in that situation can offer themselves. Yes, extending a hand to those away from the GLBT community is essential also, it is almost as important as self-realization; but people cannot go around thinking that things are going to be swell, otherwise they will end up more hurt when they are forced to face the cold hard realities of the world outside.

[Varient]

Don't hold your breath for clarification. He's a hit and run poster here....:cwink:

We have a slew of Sybils on SHH,... Posters who have second and third logins they use when they want to stir stuff up,.. or come out with the unpopular.

[moraldeficiency]

For the first time since America was founded by the English in the 1600's whites are not the majority race. Some might be scared by this,because I have heard that the whites as a whole..will be a minority by 2042.

Personally..I don't like it. If the Americans had the boarder at Mexico,this could have been dampered somewhat. I can imagine there will be some die hard white people who will try to stop this.

Well if were talking world wide whites aren't the majority now. But really, who cares? I think the term whites in itself is kind of funny. Like all white people can be one group. I've always found beliefs especially religious ones to be far more devisive than skin color. I'm white, there are a lot of black people in my family, but we're all catholic (or at least started that way). I could date a chick of any skin color without problem but if I brought a protestant home to my family in ireland her ass would get stabbed.

No matter what, people will make up their silly little groups and exclude others to feel safer about themselves. It's actually based on the evolutionairy reaction to disinclude outsiders for fear of disease, so it's human nature to circle your wagons for one reason or another. If it wasn't skin color you'd have people being *******s about something else.

What's your problem with mexicans?

[BlackLantern]

We have a slew of Sybils on SHH,... Posters who have second and third logins they use when they want to stir stuff up,.. or come out with the unpopular.

I don't consider the Hype worthy of that type of effort to create another login

[Varient]

I don't consider the Hype worthy of that type of effort to create another login

Doesn't stop it from happening.

The best one can do is figure out who the losers are and just keep track.

They slip up regular,... answering with the wrong handle on the same thread for example.

(Sad Sigh)

[jaguarr]

Doesn't stop it from happening.

The best one can do is figure out who the losers are and just keep track.

They slip up regular,... answering with the wrong handle on the same thread for example.

(Sad Sigh)

It does happen and there are people sad enough to have multiple logins just for the purpose of arguing and "ganging up" on someone they disagree with or for stirring the s**t. The mods do frown on it and when they catch people doing it they usually ban them and all their usernames outright or at least all but one and tell them if they do it again they're gone permanently. Especially posters that are viewed as problem-children to begin with. I have a feeling that if Asteroid-Man had multiple usernames the mods would have pimp-slapped him for it already by now as he's not one of their faves. He is rather famous for entering threads, making an inane comment or two and the disappearing, though.

jag

[BlackLantern]

It does happen and there are people sad enough to have multiple logins just for the purpose of arguing and "ganging up" on someone they disagree with or for stirring the s**t. The mods do frown on it and when they catch people doing it they usually ban them and all their usernames outright or at least all but one and tell them if they do it again they're gone permanently. Especially posters that are viewed as problem-children to begin with. I have a feeling that if Asteroid-Man had multiple usernames the mods would have pimp-slapped him for it already by now as he's not one of their faves. He is rather famous for entering threads, making an inane comment or two and the disappearing, though.

jag

Because everyone could use a good pimp-slappin' now and again....There should be PSA's for it....

[Tag279]

Drive by posting...gotta love it :woot:

[Varient]

It does happen and there are people sad enough to have multiple logins just for the purpose of arguing and "ganging up" on someone they disagree with or for stirring the s**t. The mods do frown on it and when they catch people doing it they usually ban them and all their usernames outright or at least all but one and tell them if they do it again they're gone permanently. Especially posters that are viewed as problem-children to begin with. I have a feeling that if Asteroid-Man had multiple usernames the mods would have pimp-slapped him for it already by now as he's not one of their faves. He is rather famous for entering threads, making an inane comment or two and the disappearing, though.

jag

I'm sure of at least two people who have at least two handles apiece. They gave themselves away by both posting /referencing something in their unique style, or answered the questions not directed toward them in a tone that they were the one addressed.

Asteroid-Man could be Me for all you know - And I take out that handle and blow the dust off every few months or so.

[The Senator]

I'm sure of at least two people who have at least two handles apiece. They gave themselves away by both posting /referencing something in their unique style, or answered the questions not directed toward them in a tone that they were the one addressed.

Asteroid-Man could be Me for all you know - And I take out that handle and blow the dust off every few months or so.

and who would those posters be?

[jaguarr]

I'm sure of at least two people who have at least two handles apiece. They gave themselves away by both posting /referencing something in their unique style, or answered the questions not directed toward them in a tone that they were the one addressed.

Asteroid-Man could be Me for all you know - And I take out that handle and blow the dust off every few months or so.

Asteroid-Man posts on a pretty consistent basis and if you're really him then you may be a borderline savant.

jag

[Varient]

and who would those posters be?

I believe it serves my purposes better to keep such to myself,.... the LAST time I exposed one,... he was banned immedietly ,.... then I noticed he was back within a week posing as someone else,... Kinda a waste of time.

Back when I cared,... one could track IP addresses,.............

Sometimes you can't hide who / what you are,....


V.

[Varient]

Asteroid-Man posts on a pretty consistent basis and if you're really him then you may be a borderline savant.

jag

no.
I use myself as an example.
I personally think it's pretty chicken-**** to have to resort to multiple handles.
V.

[jaguarr]

no.
I use myself as an example.
I personally think it's pretty chicken-**** to have to resort to multiple handles.
V.

Hey, whatever you say, Asteroid-Man. :oldrazz:

jag

[BlackLantern]

back on topic....I've never been a fan of things like affirmative action and the like....the most qualified student or person should get the job, scholarship, whatever...

It reminds me of how NASCAR is trying to get minorities to get interested in car racing....why they care about such things, I'll never know....maybe it's because a good chunk of their fan base still refers to some people as "darkies" ...I don't know

[jaguarr]

I can tell you why NASCAR wants to get persons of color into their scene: MONEY. NASCAR is all about the money. Race tickets. Merchandise. Sponsorships. They make so much money it's almost criminal. Getting more and more people into their product means more money, pure and simple.

jag

[BlackLantern]

Yes...NASCAR has permeated everywhere...even here in Connecticut...I remember stopping at a gas station....I saw a car outside that had a Dale Jr. plate....the souvenir one that has the car and the drivers signature on it....so I walk inside and the cashier had a proper mullet and actually had a tattoo of the signature of Dale Jr across their neck.....it frightened me....

if people don't like NASCAR...they don't like NASCAR....take a hike....

[Varient]

back on topic....I've never been a fan of things like affirmative action and the like....the most qualified student or person should get the job, scholarship, whatever...

It reminds me of how NASCAR is trying to get minorities to get interested in car racing....why they care about such things, I'll never know....maybe it's because a good chunk of their fan base still refers to some people as "darkies" ...I don't know

You remain SCARY.

You are supposed to be "black" yet seem UNAWARE of the original premise of "Affirmative Action".

It was originally created so BLACKS HAD A CHANCE TO COMPETE as the "most qualified".

Scary,.. and sad. Those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it.

You make these kind of unthinking comments quite often "BlackLantern" Always clowning at Black expense in one liners w/o consideration of the impact of your words.

Prior to Affirmative action A BLACK PERSON WAS AUTOMATICALLY PREVENTED OR BLOCKED FROM THINGS IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE THAT YOUR SILLY BEHIND TAKES FOR GRANTED.

Which is ANOTHER point. Having never fought for anything,.. you are too fast to discount whether something is worth fighting for TODAY.

Meh,... This actually pissed me off MR. :"I've never been a fan of things like affirmative action and the like....the most qualified student or person should get the job, scholarship, whatever..."

:whatever::whatever::whatever:

[The Senator]

Meh,... This actually pissed me off MR. :"I've never been a fan of things like affirmative action and the like....the most qualified student or person should get the job, scholarship, whatever..."

:whatever::whatever::whatever:

So you don't think that the most qualified people should be allowed to get a job, a scholarship, or attend a school of their choice? :huh:

[Varient]

So you don't think that the most qualified people should be allowed to get a job, a scholarship, or attend a school of their choice? :huh:

Don't go there with me,... You read the paragraph above it where I typed that Affirmative Action was all about giving blacks the chance to compete.

This translates to the most Qualified getting the position contrary to the suburban myth that all Blacks assisted by Affirmative action are naturally LESS than the whites that could've had the same position,.. because in MOST cases the Black has more to gain and works harder at it to get there.

I used to marvel at the mindset that would ***** about a black getting into college EVEN with better grades than the white they replaced - WITH THE ATTITUDE that the education was wasted on the black sight unseen.

I remain irritated.

[BlackLantern]

Let me clarify....Affirmative Actions original intent was to make sure black and other minority candidates were provided a fair shake with any other applicant (school, work, etc.cc)

But I feel, in certain situations, it can get out of hand when a company or school might overlook the most qualified candidate in order to bring in a minority candidate....

I'd like to think we have advanced beyond having to institute these types of policies, but I am not so sure

[Kelly]

Let me clarify....Affirmative Actions original intent was to make sure black and other minority candidates were provided a fair shake with any other applicant (school, work, etc.cc)

But I feel, in certain situations, it can get out of hand when a company or school might overlook the most qualified candidate in order to bring in a minority candidate....

I'd like to think we have advanced beyond having to institute these types of policies, but I am not so sure


We have come a long way, and I do not think affirmative action should be trashed......BUT I do think major, major reforms need to be made.

[Tag279]

back on topic....I've never been a fan of things like affirmative action and the like....the most qualified student or person should get the job, scholarship, whatever...

It reminds me of how NASCAR is trying to get minorities to get interested in car racing....why they care about such things, I'll never know....maybe it's because a good chunk of their fan base still refers to some people as "darkies" ...I don't know

Do you even truly understand how affirmative action works?

Affirmative action does not have the intent to put black people in positions that are unqualified or ill equipped to hold said position.

Affirmative Action is a foot in the door for a look not a come on in.

Consider the NFL. Because of an Affirmative action policy adopted by the NFL; teams have to interview minorities for coaching and front office positions.

Is Tony Dungy of the Colts, Luvie Smith of the Bears, Coach Tomlinson of the Steelers, or Herman Edwards of the Chiefs ill-equipped black people.

Interview not give jobs to.

[Varient]

Let me clarify....Affirmative Actions original intent was to make sure black and other minority candidates were provided a fair shake with any other applicant (school, work, etc.cc)

But I feel, in certain situations, it can get out of hand when a company or school might overlook the most qualified candidate in order to bring in a minority candidate....

I'd like to think we have advanced beyond having to institute these types of policies, but I am not so sure
Poor save. Your words were "NEVER A FAN OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION."
If it had never occured - Unless the black was part of the 3 percent of the black population - there would be NO even MID PAYING JOBS,(let alone high level), No HIGHER ACREDITED EDUCATION, No POLITICAL POSITIONS @ Mayor and above.

So to "clarify" an absolute like NEVER is pandering as you once again say stuff that you obviously know little about and the ignorance is insulting to myself as a black person.

What? Your parents made a point to NOT teach you the history of this country?
(No doubt,.. I'm offended - tsk - I have to walk away from this nonsense.)



We have come a long way, and I do not think affirmative action should be trashed......BUT I do think major, major reforms need to be made.
Which is what most people say,... that even twenty years after it started there is a large group that tries to sabotage it when it works right and whine w/o offering solutions when it works wrong.

Do you even truly understand how affirmative action works?

Affirmative action does not have the intent to put black people in positions that are unqualified or ill equipped to hold said position.

Affirmative Action is a foot in the door for a look not a come on in.

Consider the NFL. Because of an Affirmative action policy adopted by the NFL; teams have to interview minorities for coaching and front office positions.

Is Tony Dungy of the Colts, Luvie Smith of the Bears, Coach Tomlinson of the Steelers, or Herman Edwards of the Chiefs ill-equipped black people.

Interview not give jobs to.

I submit that you are the better man,... I find it hard to stay civil with "Black Lantern"
Not only did he claim to get through life w/o racial strife, and claim that he couldn't relate to people who do, and state that he was able to avoid racial incidents that MOST of us run into face first - (among much more silliness that would take up the rest of this posted page.)

But now he adds that he was NEVER a fan of the ONE THING that brought the playing field from the vertical.

It's like a black saying:
"Oh,... slavery wasn't that bad,... I was never a fan of freedom,.. I think sometimes blacks need to be worked to death and whipped for wanting more."


MEH.

[BlackLantern]

^^^^That's a bit much....as for my parents, my father always impressed upon me that because I am black, I have to do things better, cleaner, and smarter than anyone else because there will always be someone waiting to attempt to trip me up....I have applied that thinking to my schooling, my job....from my time in the military(4 years right out of HS), to college...to the job I am in today...(the company I work for now was founded by a minority and has been named one of the fastest growing tech companies in Connecticut)....I go to work everyday with the mindset that I can be yanked into my boss office at anytime and be cut loose...it's not healthy, but it keeps me motivated...

in any case, it's a bit off-putting when I see a job posting and it says "women and minorities are encouraged to apply"....is the company simply putting that there make it seem like they are an equal opportunity employer or is it just there for appearances so they can show they interview minority candidates?? has Affirmative Action lost its way or is it just being used now as a way for companies to keep the advocacy groups quiet by just interviewing minority candidates for the hell of it.....?

[StorminNorman]

You remain SCARY.

You are supposed to be "black" yet seem UNAWARE of the original premise of "Affirmative Action".

It was originally created so BLACKS HAD A CHANCE TO COMPETE as the "most qualified".

Scary,.. and sad. Those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it.

You make these kind of unthinking comments quite often "BlackLantern" Always clowning at Black expense in one liners w/o consideration of the impact of your words.

Prior to Affirmative action A BLACK PERSON WAS AUTOMATICALLY PREVENTED OR BLOCKED FROM THINGS IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE THAT YOUR SILLY BEHIND TAKES FOR GRANTED.

Which is ANOTHER point. Having never fought for anything,.. you are too fast to discount whether something is worth fighting for TODAY.

Meh,... This actually pissed me off MR. :"I've never been a fan of things like affirmative action and the like....the most qualified student or person should get the job, scholarship, whatever..."

:whatever::whatever::whatever:

:lmao:

[StorminNorman]

Do you even truly understand how affirmative action works?

Affirmative action does not have the intent to put black people in positions that are unqualified or ill equipped to hold said position.

Affirmative Action is a foot in the door for a look not a come on in.

Consider the NFL. Because of an Affirmative action policy adopted by the NFL; teams have to interview minorities for coaching and front office positions.

Is Tony Dungy of the Colts, Luvie Smith of the Bears, Coach Tomlinson of the Steelers, or Herman Edwards of the Chiefs ill-equipped black people.

Interview not give jobs to.

That rule is equally stupid. Basically its stating that the most important part of racial equality is LOOKING like you are considering all races, rather than actually doing so. I remember when the Lions hired Steve Mariucchi a few years back - he was their first choice, he agreed to be their coach, it was a done deal - the Lions were fined for not interviewing a coach they did not want. They did not want him because he was black, but because they had their coach.

I think laws that work under the assumption that Americans are going to make evil decisions are at their core foul.

I do not know a single white person (even though I do know, sadly, several racial people) that would say a black person who has higher grades deserves a college spot over a white kid. The problem comes in when a black student is given points simply for being black - that's not fair.

Of course I will be lambasted for being white and not understanding...

[BlackLantern]

well Norman....according to V up there.....I'm black and I don't understand....it's not that I am making light of it....I grew up in the Northeast...the racial climate is a bit different here than it is down South where V is from....the only time I've experienced serious racial tension and issues was when I was in the Navy....

[Tag279]

That rule is equally stupid. Basically its stating that the most important part of racial equality is LOOKING like you are considering all races, rather than actually doing so. I remember when the Lions hired Steve Mariucchi a few years back - he was their first choice, he agreed to be their coach, it was a done deal - the Lions were fined for not interviewing a coach they did not want. They did not want him because he was black, but because they had their coach.

I think laws that work under the assumption that Americans are going to make evil decisions are at their core foul.

I do not know a single white person (even though I do know, sadly, several racial people) that would say a black person who has higher grades deserves a college spot over a white kid. The problem comes in when a black student is given points simply for being black - that's not fair.

Of course I will be lambasted for being white and not understanding...

I don't agree with giving anyone points because they are black, hispanic, asian, or anything else either. That component of Aff-A has been widely removed and quotas were declared unconstititional several years ago. Blacks that get positions today the vast majority of the time get them because they got the best score.

I got promoted at the FD from Fire Fighter to Fire Inspector/ Investigator because I had the highest test score 99.66% out of 100% the nearest person to me was 10 points behind. I got the job based on Merit not my color.

The vast majority of other blacks in corporate or professional America have done the same.

well Norman....according to V up there.....I'm black and I don't understand....it's not that I am making light of it....I grew up in the Northeast...the racial climate is a bit different here than it is down South where V is from....the only time I've experienced serious racial tension and issues was when I was in the Navy....

All I think varient is trying to get you to understand is that your reaility is not the same for all balcks in this country. Aff-A exsists because there are still those people that do not wan't a black person to have the opportunity to do anything and would not be fair unless they are forced to.

[BlackLantern]

I understand that....so does that make my experiences any less valid...? I don't think so

[Tag279]

I understand that....so does that make my experiences any less valid...? I don't think so

No it does not but your situation does not invalidate our experiences either.

[Marx]

I understand that....so does that make my experiences any less valid...? I don't think so

I don't think so either BL.

[Varient]

I don't agree with giving anyone points because they are black, hispanic, asian, or anything else either. That component of Aff-A has been widely removed and quotas were declared unconstititional several years ago. Blacks that get positions today the vast majority of the time get them because they got the best score.
People Don't get it. You say "Affirmative action" and you get white people painting you a picture of the most unqualified black person in the world being given a job over a fully qualified white - and that simply isn't so.


[I got promoted at the FD from Fire Fighter to Fire Inspector/ Investigator because I had the highest test score 99.66% out of 100% the nearest person to me was 10 points behind. I got the job based on Merit not my color.
Props.
When I passed my Chiefs test the FIRST TIME over four others who had taken it many times before - I had to listen to their Marveling over and over about "How could I pass it." Musta been a fluke.

Years of this attitude wears on a person over time.


[The vast majority of other blacks in corporate or professional America have done the same.



All I think varient is trying to get you to understand is that your reaility is not the same for all blacks in this country. Aff-A exsists because there are still those people that do not wan't a black person to have the opportunity to do anything and would not be fair unless they are forced to.
No.
Varient is not trying. Varient is saying his reality is twisted if he is disconnected enough to "Never have been a fan of Affirmative action".

Because if there had been no affirmative action I will bet you dollars to donuts that he wouldn't be where he is today,... the company he works for wouldn't exist, and his job choices in the military would have been extremely limited.

One of the biggest issues Affirmative action had to hurdle was getting blacks to even TRY to go in those directions that were closed to them for the most part since the end of Slavery. So I expect that the wording had to be specific,.. otherwise they wouldn't apply.

Meh.

V.

[Varient]

:lmao:

I am comforted that you find my irritation amusing.

[Varient]

I understand that....so does that make my experiences any less valid...? I don't think so

Obviously not.

I'm not even touching on invalidating your experiences - I'm touching on the enourmous paint brush you wield in areas you have already admitted having no knowledge or experienced.

If you understood the concepts behind a lot of the stuff you regularly discount or dismissed,.... you definetly wouldn't phrase them in absolutes like you do.

V.

[Tag279]

Obviously not.

I'm not even touching on invalidating your experiences - I'm touching on the enourmous paint brush you wield in areas you have already admitted having no knowledge or experienced.

If you understood the concepts behind a lot of the stuff you regularly discount or dismissed,.... you definetly wouldn't phrase them in absolutes like you do.

V.

Good point :up:

[Arkady Rossovich]

What don't you like about it? Personally I could care less about the color make up of America.

Well actually I do care about it, because I want it to be more diverse. I don't believe this is the land of the whites, with supreme ownership over this country.

I have no prefrence for it. But some may do,maybe even some you know..but they won't say it openly. If they did,they would be called a Racist or someone who is ignorant of what the world is now.

America was ment to be diverse as it was now,when it was first founded. But when you have people comming from mostly Europe for over 200 years,then it gets..a bit one sided.

I guess they want us to get on a boat and leave? My family has been in this country since the late 1700s. They were slaves but they were still Natural Born U.S. citizens.

I can't say much,because I don't know your situation. Are you black? If so,then even if your family was in America since that time..it still says your from Africa. If you were to tell others this,chances are they will say the same thing.

Well if were talking world wide whites aren't the majority now. But really, who cares? I think the term whites in itself is kind of funny. Like all white people can be one group. I've always found beliefs especially religious ones to be far more devisive than skin color. I'm white, there are a lot of black people in my family, but we're all catholic (or at least started that way). I could date a chick of any skin color without problem but if I brought a protestant home to my family in ireland her ass would get stabbed.

No matter what, people will make up their silly little groups and exclude others to feel safer about themselves. It's actually based on the evolutionairy reaction to disinclude outsiders for fear of disease, so it's human nature to circle your wagons for one reason or another. If it wasn't skin color you'd have people being *******s about something else.

What's your problem with mexicans?

The term whites and blacks,came from a time when people were defined by classes. Even now,that system still exists. Your white or asian,your respected..you have a good job and family. Black or hispanic,your shunned..and live in the slums. It may not always be like this,but the "image" is that.

I have no problems with the Azetcs,which they really are. I just said that so people can have a better thought of things,I can't say Europe..because then no one can understand what I am posting.

[The Senator]

Oh, man, Arkady vs. Spider-Bite... now this is something! :yay:

[Tag279]

I can't say much,because I don't know your situation. Are you black? If so,then even if your family was in America since that time..it still says your from Africa. If you were to tell others this,chances are they will say the same thing.

The term whites and blacks,came from a time when people were defined by classes. Even now,that system still exists. Your white or asian,your respected..you have a good job and family. Black or hispanic,your shunned..and live in the slums. It may not always be like this,but the "image" is that.


I am black and I don't live in slums or projects I live in an 1800 sqft home that I own.

The vast majority of members of my family are professionals from almost every discipline and they don't live in slums.

Black people or whatever you choose to call us are not the dregs of this nation. Most of us go to work every day and try to make a positive contribution to society.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I wanted to bring this up and see what people thought.

In Houston, whites are now the Minority. Hispanics are not at a 50% majority.
Does this mean I can now "minority benefits" to colleges/scholorships and other things of that nature?

No.

Unfortunately. :dry:

[moraldeficiency]

The term whites and blacks,came from a time when people were defined by classes. Even now,that system still exists. Your white or asian,your respected..you have a good job and family. Black or hispanic,your shunned..and live in the slums. It may not always be like this,but the "image" is that.

I have no problems with the Azetcs,which they really are. I just said that so people can have a better thought of things,I can't say Europe..because then no one can understand what I am posting.

Actually I think whites and blacks are a related to skin color, not classes.

That's a very narrow world view. There are many places in which asians (an extremely broad term to describe multi-ethnicities which are not any more related than geographically) are little more than slaves. Hispanics in areas have a far greater level of cloat than a standard white or asian ever could have. Blacks get the short end of the stick in respect to places where skin color alone can be highly influential. And there are plenty of places where being white is in no way an advantage. You're "image" is extremely racist and reflects very little understanding of the world or people in it.

You say the Aztecs but leave out the Mayans and discount the spanish decendents which now dominate the area. You also don't mention the original settlers the Aztecs and Mayans slaughtered. You should probably research or travel to an area before you make baseless claims that seemed fostered in the very worst prejudices available.

[Varient]

Actually I think whites and blacks are a related to skin color, not classes.

That's a very narrow world view. There are many places in which asians (an extremely broad term to describe multi-ethnicities which are not any more related than geographically) are little more than slaves. Hispanics in areas have a far greater level of cloat than a standard white or asian ever could have. Blacks get the short end of the stick in respect to places where skin color alone can be highly influential. And there are plenty of places where being white is in no way an advantage. You're "image" is extremely racist and reflects very little understanding of the world or people in it.

You say the Aztecs but leave out the Mayans and discount the spanish decendents which now dominate the area. You also don't mention the original settlers the Aztecs and Mayans slaughtered. You should probably research or travel to an area before you make baseless claims that seemed fostered in the very worst prejudices available.

... And people PTM to tell ME I'm too hard,......

V.

[BlackLantern]

Well...my intent is not to be dismissive....I would just like to live in place where your skin tone isn't part of what qualifies or doesn't qualify you for something...

[Tag279]

Well...my intent is not to be dismissive....I would just like to live in place where your skin tone isn't part of what qualifies or doesn't qualify you for something...

I would too BL, I would too. We as a nation are starting to move in that direction...but we still have a long way to go.

[BlackLantern]

Yes...we aren't as civil as we'd like to think we are....

[Mr Sparkle]

I have no problems with the Azetcs,which they really are. I just said that so people can have a better thought of things,I can't say Europe..because then no one can understand what I am posting.



woah! what an Imbecile.
we are "aztecs" now? gee, thanks for the info, seeing as Mexico was made up of several different native tribes, some including even cherokee.
Pai Pai? none of those ring a bell?
plus, almost no one is pure indian nowadays, especially in Mexico. you'd do well to at least make sense when you posts utterly idiotic stuff like that.

aztecs?
jesus dude, did you know that Sinaloa had great big colonies of Germans and thus to this day there are 6' 4" blonde blue eyed Mexicans walking around all over the place?
I'm 1/8 Irish 1/8 portuguese myself.
Aztecs?
:huh:

seriously dude? aztects?

[jaguarr]

Sparkle, I've been patiently waiting for you to pimpslap Jourmugand for that Aztec comment. It was worth the wait. :D

jag

[BlackLantern]

Indeed

[Mr Sparkle]

well Matt just gave me an infraction for doing so. because Matt is a great, great Mod.

[BlackLantern]

it was probably for calling him an imbecile....Matt's pretty tough on name calling....he whacked me once for insulting philly sports fans in general....

[Mr Sparkle]

an unbiased and totally non-petty mod who hasn't overlooked stuff like this for people he "likes" :up: I am glad he was modded, I really am.

[jaguarr]

well Matt just gave me an infraction for doing so. because Matt is a great, great Mod.

You've got to be kidding me? :huh: What Jourmugand wrote was pure ignorance if not borderline racist. You just gave him a history lesson. Lame, if he did.

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

I am still glad he is a Mod, he rocks both ass a mod and person in general. he is the best, I hope he brings us all gifts for xmas.

[Mr Sparkle]

Don't question his will Jag, for he is jealous Mod.

[jaguarr]

Don't question his will Jag, for he is jealous Mod.

If he's doling out infractions without explaining WHY to the people he is giving them to then he is doing the same thing people get so pissed off at Morg for and it will make him despised as a mod if that's how he's going to roll. (I know you're reading this, Matty. Seriously, infractions for petty stuff, especially with no explanation, is going to work against you in the long run. Don't sweat the small stuff, mate.)

jag

[Matt]

Arkady is being handled, Sparkle insulting him only throws fuel into the fire so he was slapped as well.

[The Senator]

Interesting how Arkady is still here, though, yet Sparkle has been banned...

[BlackLantern]

I think things are just being stockpiled till Arkady can be banned permanently

[jaguarr]

Interesting how Arkady is still here, though, yet Sparkle has been banned...

Especially since I've seen people pull far, far, far, far, far worse around here and not even get a slap on the wrist or even a mention of wrongdoing at all for it.

jag

[Matt]

Sparkle was a staff decision, not mine. Arkady was infracted. His posts (not limited to these ones) are being reviewed to see if further action is necessary. Sparkle has an extensive record. If we are done, feel free to get back on topic.

[Marx]

SO how 'bout that caucasian minority statistic? :cwink:

[The Senator]

Sparkle was a staff decision, not mine. Arkady was infracted. His posts (not limited to these ones) are being reviewed to see if further action is necessary. Sparkle has an extensive record. If we are done, feel free to get back on topic.

Well this is a thread on minorities, and one of the things which seems to come up with minorities is racial slurs/ bias.

The Mexicans are referred to as "Aztecs" by a poster with a history of making strange, if not entirely misinformed, statements. And one of our Mexican posters decided to put him in his place for referring to them as such.

I think Sparkle was justified in what he said, nothing he said was more out of line than what Arkady said.

If a poster called gays a bunch of "French fairies" I would certainly have something to say about it, perhaps on the same level as Sparkle.

I find it "strange punishment," really, especially since it's obvious that Sparkle isn't most beloved by the staff...

[BlackLantern]

Jman....you French fairy you.....j/k....Well the person would be minority within the city of Houston but that's about it....drive outside of Houston and you are THE MAN again

[Matt]

Well this is a thread on minorities, and one of the things which seems to come up with minorities is racial slurs/ bias.

The Mexicans are referred to as "Aztecs" by a poster with a history of making strange, if not entirely misinformed, statements. And one of our Mexican posters decided to put him in his place for referring to them as such.

I think Sparkle was justified in what he said, nothing he said was more out of line than what Arkady said.

If a poster called gays a bunch of "French fairies" I would certainly have something to say about it, perhaps on the same level as Sparkle.

I find it "strange punishment," really, especially since it's obvious that Sparkle isn't most beloved by the staff...

Which is why the staff is currently having a discussion on whether we should probate or ban Arkady. Arkady is not being ignored. Sparkle on the other hand is not a moderator, it is not his job to call another poster names and in essence throw fuel into the fire. He has a record, so yes, the staff does keep him on a tighter leash. If you did it, the penalty would not be as severe, just as the penalty for a one time DUI offender would not be as severe as the penalty for a five time DUI offender.

[The Senator]

Which is why the staff is currently having a discussion on whether we should probate or ban Arkady. Arkady is not being ignored. Sparkle on the other hand is not a moderator, it is not his job to call another poster names and in essence throw fuel into the fire. He has a record, so yes, the staff does keep him on a tighter leash. If you did it, the penalty would not be as severe, just as the penalty for a one time DUI offender would not be as severe as the penalty for a five time DUI offender.

Understandable, mostly. Back on topic then.

[kainedamo]

Seems so minor. Surely handing out infractions for minor stuff causes more drama and trouble than necassary.

If Sparkle has an "extensive history", I probably have one too. My infraction points keep building up! Funny though, I never really had any problems with mods until a couple of months ago, and since then I've been slapped with infractions left and right.

[Matt]

Your record is not nearly as extensive as Sparkle. As for it being minor, it was. Infractions are nothing more than official warnings. Sparkle on the other hand felt the need to blow it out of porportion and that is when the staff decision was made to give him three days to cool off.

[Varient]

Sparkle was a staff decision, not mine. Arkady was infracted. His posts (not limited to these ones) are being reviewed to see if further action is necessary. Sparkle has an extensive record. If we are done, feel free to get back on topic.

damn.

[Varient]

Is SHH following some sort of warning/banning number count?

And is there a sticky for it?

V.

[BlackLantern]

I don't think being a minority in one city is enough for one to be walking around calling themselves a minority....

[jaguarr]

Which is why the staff is currently having a discussion on whether we should probate or ban Arkady. Arkady is not being ignored. Sparkle on the other hand is not a moderator, it is not his job to call another poster names and in essence throw fuel into the fire. He has a record, so yes, the staff does keep him on a tighter leash. If you did it, the penalty would not be as severe, just as the penalty for a one time DUI offender would not be as severe as the penalty for a five time DUI offender.

So it is the job of moderators, then, to call other posters names and throw fuel onto fires? :huh:

jag

[Marx]

SO how 'bout that caucasian minority statistic guys?

[BlackLantern]

SO how 'bout that caucasian minority statistic guys?

like I said above...I don't think you can consider yourself a minority if it's only in one localized area..

[The Senator]

like I said above...I don't think you can consider yourself a minority if it's only in one localized area..

I agree with this. If I moved to Castro Street, I'd be considered a part of the majority. But if I traveled outside of that neighborhood, I'd once again be a minority. I would say that a white person could call himself a minority if he lived in a state in which the majority of the population was some other ethnicity(ies), but if you live in a large metropolitan area you are hardly a minority in the greater scheme of things. Many cities in this country are dominated by groups which, at the national level, are considered minorities. Look at Miami, DC, Baltimore or Philadelphia, for example.

[Marx]

like I said above...I don't think you can consider yourself a minority if it's only in one localized area..

I agree BL.

[terry78]

Any of you minorities call me a porch monkey, it's on.



....I just wanted to be part of the crowd, I haven't said anything for a while. :csad:

[BlackLantern]

Terry is taking it back....

[jaguarr]

Terry is taking it back....

Haha! He can have it! :D

jag

[Superman4ever]

Which is why the staff is currently having a discussion on whether we should probate or ban Arkady. Arkady is not being ignored. Sparkle on the other hand is not a moderator, it is not his job to call another poster names and in essence throw fuel into the fire. He has a record, so yes, the staff does keep him on a tighter leash. If you did it, the penalty would not be as severe, just as the penalty for a one time DUI offender would not be as severe as the penalty for a five time DUI offender.

EDIT: nevermind!

[Metal Spidey]

I wanted to bring this up and see what people thought.

In Houston, whites are now the Minority. Hispanics are not at a 50% majority.
Does this mean I can now "minority benefits" to colleges/scholorships and other things of that nature?

I'm guessing those things apply to being the minority of the whole country, not a city.

[Varient]

First of ten.

RUNNING FROM RACISTS Fleeing threats of violence, a black family in Phoenix sinks its savings into an expensive move.

By SUZANNE SEIXAS
July 1, 1991
(MONEY Magazine) – Joann Long thought it was a prank at first. At 2:45 p.m. on Dec. 18, 1989, her son Ray Jr. -- then a 14-year-old 10th-grader at Barry Goldwater High in Phoenix -- came pounding on the back door, shouting, ''Let us in! The skinheads are after us!'' When Joann slid open the bolt, Ray and a black schoolmate darted past her to the front window, obviously terrified. Peering over their shoulders, Joann saw about 30 white youths, some carrying baseball bats and many sporting the shaved scalps and paramilitary dress of neo-Nazi ''skinheads,'' advancing on the Longs' three-bedroom stucco home in the mostly white, middle-class neighborhood of Deer Valley. The mob kept yelling, ''We're gonna get you ******s!'' as it searched yard to yard for the teens. Breathlessly, Ray Jr. explained that the gang had ambushed them after he challenged one of the ''skins'' for making fun of a planned rally marking the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday. After quickly locking the doors and closing the drapes, Joann phoned the police and then her husband Ray, a $41,900-a-year sales manager for the cellular-telecommunications equipment maker Celwave. ''I drove like a bat out of hell,'' recalls Ray, now 45. ''But by the time I got home, the skinheads had been scared off by the police sirens.'' Although no one was hurt, the Longs were deeply shaken. They are not alone: bias crimes are on the rise nationwide. Klanwatch, an arm of the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Ala., recorded 291 race- related incidents in 41 states last year, ranging from threats to arson, bombing and even murder (the count includes only crimes where bias is known to be the main motive and thus understates the problem). The total was up 20% from the year before and fully five times higher than in 1986. Five of the 20 murders, the biggest fraction attributed to any single group, were committed by skinheads -- loosely organized gangs with 3,000 members across the country that ape the style and sometimes the racist politics of Great Britain's immigrant-bashing youths of the 1970s. In Arizona, skins have been active in the state's emotional debate on whether to become the 49th state to honor King's Jan. 15 birthday with a holiday. Some skins joined an anti-King rally last January, for example, to celebrate the defeat of the proposal by Arizona's 81%-white electorate two months earlier. For their part, the Longs found that though their son escaped from the mob, the incident left financial scars as well as emotional ones. Specifically, they were so unsettled by the harassment that they felt compelled to move last August, even though the decision left their finances in shambles. They had to spend all their $2,300 savings to buy an $88,000, three-bedroom house in another section of Deer Valley three miles from their old home. And now their $840 monthly mortgage payment alone is 34% higher than their old $625-a-month rent. On the emotional side, they want to repair the fragile sense of belonging that the attack shattered. The Longs have always prided themselves on being black pioneers: they were one of the first African-American families in Deer Valley, and Ray Jr., now 16, and sister Tasha, 18, were among only three dozen blacks in the 2,045-student Barry Goldwater High School. But the family had no desire to contend with racist toughs -- especially since their third child, 12-year-old Reggie, is so profoundly retarded by Down's syndrome that he cannot read, write or even talk. Ray and Joann, 39, worried that Reggie might wander away from home and run into a group of violent skinheads. The Longs now need advice on how to budget, boost savings and provide for . Reggie's future. ''He'll be with Joann and me all our lives,'' says Ray. ''But what happens after we're dead?'' In addition, they need to build a solid base of diversified investments so that if they cannot flee from racism entirely, they at least won't go broke along the way. Ray Long already has much to be proud of. Born the eighth of nine children on a family farm outside Houston, he finished high school and spent four years in the Navy before enrolling at Laney College in Oakland, Calif. in 1968. When his widowed mother fell ill two years later, he headed back to Houston and got a $12,000-a-year job as a moving-company salesman. After his mother's death, Ray married Joann Rogers, a teacher's aide from Brenham, Texas. And in 1975, the couple put $1,000 down and borrowed $18,500 at 8.5% to buy a three-bedroom house in northeast Houston. Ray held a succession of sales jobs for local firms until he was hired by Marlboro, N.J.-based Celwave for $25,000 a year in 1984. Celwave moved the Longs to Phoenix and put Ray in charge of developing accounts in the western half of the U.S. (''Not bad for a black farm boy who never finished college,'' he jokes). But since Houston's housing market was already headed downhill, Ray and Joann rented out their old home rather than sell it at a loss. The strategy worked. The roughly $3,600 annual rent more than covers the $2,400 a year they pay on the mortgage, and the property has doubled in value to about $40,000. In Phoenix, the Longs moved into Deer Valley at the suggestion of one of Ray's white co-workers. All seemed to go well. Tasha became the first black cheerleader in the local Pop Warner Football League. Ray Jr. integrated marching bands as a drummer and won a roomful of softball trophies. Best of all, Reggie entered the district's highly regarded program for the mentally handicapped. As more blacks moved into Deer Valley, though, racial tensions surfaced at Barry Goldwater High. At least two students proclaimed themselves skinheads. And four black youths began dressing in the trademark reds and blues of the Bloods and the Crips, the ghetto-bred Los Angeles street gangs that have been spreading nationwide. The incident involving Ray Jr. began when one of the skinheads gave Tasha a ''Heil, Hitler!'' salute after hearing her mention an upcoming King rally. ''I was shocked,'' she remembers. ''I knew the skinheads were at school, but we'd never had much trouble from them.'' Ray Jr. confronted the white | youth in the schoolyard at lunch. Name-calling swiftly escalated into threats, reinforcements arrived on both sides, and finally security guards hauled the chief antagonists off to assistant principal Wayne Kindall. ''I issued warnings and thought that was the end of it,'' Kindall says. ''But later that day the police called to say Ray Jr. had been chased.'' Ray could identify many of his attackers, and Kindall gave one baldpated white student a two-week suspension the following day. The police subsequently took the same boy into custody briefly but then released him, saying the case was not serious enough to warrant formal charges. ''He had not committed a particularly heinous crime,'' explains Sgt. Kevin Robinson, ''and we didn't think he was a danger to himself or others.'' Galvanized into action, Joann organized a group of 20 black parents that urged the school board to ban organized gangs. The board wouldn't go that far. But in May 1990, it called for a program to encourage sensitivity to minorities (7.2% of the district's 16,000 pupils are either black or Hispanic). A black social worker directs the effort, which has since sponsored five weekend retreats attended by a total of 200 students, parents and staffers. Still, the Longs continued to feel uncomfortable at home -- especially since several of Ray Jr.'s assailants lived less than a block away. ''It scared the hell out of me to hear them hanging out until 2 a.m. in their backyards,'' admits Ray Sr. ''For a while there, I wouldn't even let our kids go to the store.'' So as soon as their lease expired, the Longs put $4,000 down -- $2,300 in savings plus $1,700 from Ray's earnings -- and assumed an $84,000, 9.5% fixed-rate mortgage to buy the home they now inhabit. Moving and closing costs totaled $1,200, and Joann spent another $1,100 on bedroom furniture. Those outlays tightened a family budget that was already stretched by $300- a-month payments on their '83 Toyota, bought used in the spring of 1990, and the $5,400 they had spent in the previous 12 months to travel to Houston and keep up the property there. And Ray will make that budget even tighter if he goes ahead with his plan to buy a second car after his current auto loan is paid off this fall. Already, he can only afford to pay about $25 a month on outstanding charge-card balances of $900, and add a scant $150 in paycheck deductions to the $4,000 in his 401(k). That $4,000, the family's only savings, is spread among stock, fixed-income and government-obligation funds. Considering the Longs' lack of cash, it's fortunate that both Tasha and Ray Jr. have their eyes on inexpensive Glendale Community College near Phoenix, where the tuition is only $650 a year. Tasha plans to enroll this fall, and her brother will be ready to join her in 1992. Racial tension at Goldwater, meanwhile, has mostly dropped out of sight. ''I may overhear the word ****** when I pass some white kids,'' says Ray Jr., ''but it's not directed at me.'' Yet his mother worries her son may be downplaying the situation. ''When I organized the black parents,'' says Joann, ''my kids told me, 'Hey, Ma, the teachers tell us you're causing trouble.' Now my son won't say anything, because he doesn't want me going up to school and raising a ruckus.'' But she hasn't forgotten that day in December 1989. ''As long as we live in this district and pay taxes, I'll watch the schools. We've run as far as we're going to go.''

[Varient]

Second of ten
(2003)

By BILL TORPY
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Several members of Georgia law enforcement agencies may belong to a "dangerous" white supremacist group, an FBI agent testified Wednesday he was told by an informant who infiltrated the group.

FBI Special Agent Joseph Thompson's testimony came at a bond hearing for the group's state leader, who is being held on gun charges.

A federal magistrate denied bond to Chester James Doles, 42, a Dahlonega man who authorities say was the Georgia organizer of the National Alliance and a longtime Ku Klux Klan activist.

Doles was charged with being a felon who illegally possessed a number of rifles and handguns.

Thompson, a member of a Joint Terrorism Task Force that had investigated Doles since July 2001, said, "Mr. Doles is a very active member of a group the FBI considers a terrorist group. That group is known commonly in law enforcement as the most dangerous group in the United States."

Thompson testified that William Pierce, who founded the National Alliance and whose book "The Turner Diaries" is believed to have inspired Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, met with Doles in Dahlonega. Thompson said Doles, who has a swastika tattoo on his right hand, picked up Pierce at Hartsfield International Airport.

Thompson also testified that a confidential informant who met with Doles starting in 2001 told authorities Doles bragged of having law enforcement members in his group.

"That shows that Mr. Doles has a support network including law enforcement" members, said Thompson. "You vastly increase the capacity of the network," by having authorities as members. They "can look the other way."

U.S. Magistrate Linda Walker also mentioned the reputed law enforcement connections when denying bond.

"Who better to help you flee or get around law enforcement than law enforcement?" asked Walker.

No names were mentioned in court, and federal authorities declined after the hearing to say whether they believed the claim.

"[The agent] was under oath; he was testifying in good faith to what he was told.," said Special Agent Joe Parris, an FBI spokesman. "We can speculate all day long if what he was told was hyperbole or the gospel truth."

Former Assistant U.S. Attorney Buddy Parker said evidence introduced in bond hearings has a lower level of veracity than in a trial. Still, "if someone is lying, then you don't repeat what you know not to be true."

"Clearly, a federal judge relied on that info" as a reason to deny Doles bond, said Parker.

Frank V. Rotondo, executive director of the Georgia Police Chiefs Association, said larger departments have rules prohibiting officers from belonging to "subversive groups." But, he said, "it becomes difficult if you don't have a specific policy in place."

The judge discounted defense contentions that Doles was being prosecuted for his involvement with the white supremacist group. She pointed to Doles' 1993 Maryland assault conviction for an attack on a interracial couple and a 1997 burglary conviction in a case in which Doles beat a homeowner.

"It doesn't matter if he's a member of the National Alliance or the National Peacekeeping Association," she said.

Upon leaving the courtroom, Doles asked to hug his wife, Theresa. His request was denied.

Walking out, he looked at his two teenage sons, saying, "You know what's on trial here. Step up to the plate. You boys got to."

His wife replied, "They will."

[Varient]

Three of Ten
(2005)
"Mississippi in 2005 is protecting white, racist murderers"
That's how Diane Nash put it this past Sunday at the 41st Annual James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner Memorial Service, which I attended in Neshoba County, Mississippi (more on the service coming soon...). Ms. Nash has a real knack for stating the truth of things. I've been asking repeatedly, Why only Killen? But it is really more to the point to ask, Why is Mississippi protecting white, racist murderers? If you've been following the news on the trial at all, you know that the jury is deadlocked, 6-6. There is a whole lot to say in the why is Mississippi protecting racist murderers department about how the case has been pursued, but this bit from a recent article (via The Arkansas Delta Peace And Justice Center) about the deadlocked jury also speaks volumes:

"These people, and I'm not just talking about the jurors but just about everyone involved in this case, are acting like they have non-refundable tickets for a cruise later in the week and they don't intend to let a murder trial get in the way of their travel plans," CBS News Legal Analyst Andrew Cohen said.

"I have never seen a case seem so rushed as this one as been," Cohen added. "From the 15-minute opening statements to the jury coming back after only a few hours and declaring themselves deadlock. There is a reason they call it 'deliberations.' It is supposed to be a slow, thoughtful process. Not a rush for the doors.

"If this isn't the quickest deadlock in legal history it's got to be close."
The same article also provides a handy contrast between the image Philadelphia, MS is trying to promote about itself by having this trial and the reality of what still exists there:

"That's not the Neshoba County I know," Duncan said in contrasting today's community with the violence and hatred of 1964. "People here don't treat people that way."

Prosecutors said that while there was no testimony putting the murder weapon in Killen's hands, the evidence showed he was a Klan organizer and had played a personal role in preparations the day of the murders.

"He was in the Klan and he was a leader," Attorney General Jim Hood said.

Killen was tried in 1967 along with several others on federal charges of violating the victims' civil rights. The all-white jury deadlocked in Killen's case, with one juror saying later she could not convict a preacher. Seven others were convicted but none served more than six years.

The defense rested Monday after a former mayor testified that the Klan was a "peaceful organization." Harlan Majure, who was mayor of this Mississippi town in the 1990s, said Killen was a good man and that the part-time preacher's Klan membership would not change his opinion.

Majure said the Klan "did a lot of good up here" and said he was not personally aware of the organization's bloody past.

"As far as I know it's a peaceful organization," Majure said. His comment was met with murmurs in the packed courtroom.

Between the time when I started this post and when I'm finishing it now, the Killen verdict came in: guilty on three counts of manslaughter, not murder. That is, he is guilty of kidnapping them and that they died after they were kidnapped, not for murdering with intent. As both Ben Chaney and Rita Schwerner Bender said in the news conference that I caught on TV, it is a significant first step that Killen has been convicted and held responsible for Chaney, Schwerner and Goodman's deaths, and for that I am happy. But it is only a small first step.

Why is Mississippi protecting white, racist murderers?

[jaguarr]

I know the skinhead movement hit kind of a fever-pitch in the mid to late 80's. How active is it now? (I honestly don't know, so I'm asking).

jag

[moraldeficiency]

song one of one:

Killing in the name of!
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Huh!

Killing in the name of!
Killing in the name of

And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
But now you do what they told ya
Well now you do what they told ya

Those who died are justified, for wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
You justify those that died by wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
Those who died are justified, for wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
You justify those that died by wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites

Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Uggh!

Killing in the name of!
Killing in the name of

And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control (7 times)
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya!

Those who died are justified, for wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
You justify those that died by wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
Those who died are justified, for wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
You justify those that died by wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
Come on!

Yeah! Come on!

**** you, I won't do what you tell me
**** you, I won't do what you tell me
**** you, I won't do what you tell me
**** you, I won't do what you tell me
**** you, I won't do what you tell me
**** you, I won't do what you tell me
**** you, I won't do what you tell me
**** you, I won't do what you tell me
**** you, I won't do what you tell me!
**** you, I won't do what you tell me!
**** you, I won't do what you tell me!
**** you, I won't do what you tell me!
**** you, I won't do what you tell me!
**** you, I won't do what you tell me!
**** you, I won't do what you tell me!
**** you, I won't do what you tell me!
Mother****er!
Uggh!

[BlackLantern]

Because according to some in Mississippi, black people are not considered equal human beings...so aren't worth actual deliberation in a murder trial

[terry78]

Because according to some in Mississippi, black people are not considered equal human beings...so aren't worth actual deliberation in a murder trial

Well, with our rapin' and murderin' of white women every other weekend as part of our scheduled fun, of course they'd think that. :o :whatever:

[jaguarr]

Well, with our rapin' and murderin' of white women every other weekend as part of our scheduled fun, of course they'd think that. :o :whatever:

How you find time to do that rapin' and murderin' of white women AND rap about your money and *****es, pour Cristal all over skeezer's booties and lounge in your pool while your homies jump the hydraulics and play with the spinner rims on your fleet of cars at poolside is beyond me, Terry. You're a prime specimen of energy and planning.

jag

[BlackLantern]

well I will usually delegate the pouring of Cristal to one of my entourage....

[jaguarr]

well I will usually delegate the pouring of Cristal to one of my entourage....

Oooh, ooh! Can I do that!? That's like....the BEST job! :up:

jag

[Varient]

Four of Ten
(2007)
Racist Banter Behind Closed Doors
At a large Midwestern university, several white friends get together for drinks. One person makes a racial joke, another starts singing a song filled with derogatory words. A student makes a greeting card with the ‘N-word’ written on it and passes it around the room, despite objections from a few others. No one outside the group hears the banter or sees the card.

This scene comes courtesy of a student who participated in a scholarly study in which he was asked to observe conversations happening around him that involved race. In a forthcoming book, a researcher at the University of Dayton identifies hundreds of these journal entries describing what she considers to be racist conversations or events that are often tolerated when the white students are talking among themselves.

The results might help shed light on the controversial parties at numerous colleges that involved white students wearing blackface and dressing in stereotypical ghetto garb on Martin Luther King Jr. Day.

“What strikes me is how common these antics are and how casually students say the ‘N-word’,” said Leslie H. Picca, one of the book’s co-authors and an assistant professor of sociology at Dayton. “What the MLK parties show is that there isn’t an awareness among white students that their actions are problematic, even if black students aren’t around to hear.”

Picca’s research shows that while many white students are prone to making derogatory comments in a “backstage” setting (a private gathering of friends), they are unlikely to start such a conversation when in a “frontstage” situation (a public setting where people of color might be present.) The research is featured in the book, “Two-Faced Racism: Whites in the Backstage and Frontstage,” scheduled for release from Routledge Publishing in April.

For her dissertation at the University of Florida, Picca asked students at a number of institutions to keep the journal of conversations over a period of a few weeks during the 2002-3 academic year. More than 1,000 students participated, and Picca looked at entries of 626 white students who provided first-person accounts of interactions with others, mostly in the 18-to-25 age group. Students were instructed not to initiate the conversations or interview anyone about the topic.

Nearly 70 percent of students whose journals were viewed were white women, and the vast majority of students attended one of five colleges in either Florida or Georgia or a large university in the Midwest. Some of the colleges represented have very few black students enrolled.

Picca said she found that not only did white students stay away from conversations about race in the “frontstage,” but many went out of their way to be polite to people of color when in public.

Joe. R. Feagin, a professor of sociology at Texas A&M University and co-author of the book, called the journals “pretty disturbing material.” Feagin, who has spent much of his career studying white attitudes toward people of color, explored the issue of how white people discuss race in a public and private setting in his book, White Racism: The Basics. (Picca was a graduate student of Feagin’s.)

Feagin said Picca is building on an argument backed by some sociologists that white racist thought hasn’t disappeared but rather moved largely to the backstage setting.

“It’s extremely common for white college students, guys especially, to start competing with each other, telling anti-Semitic jokes or anti-black jokes,” he said.

Picca received journal entries from non-white students but is saving the information for a later report. Feagin said that the black students tended to write about what their white friends say in private and how it feels to be a “token” member of a group.

Picca’s research suggests that white students keep their conversations secret by whispering or using code words and vague language to make racial descriptions. She writes that white women appear more likely to object to the racist language and jokes, even though they might face insults for the objections.

She said the derogatory terms used to describe people of color are being recycled from previous generations.

In the journals, few students admitted to being a principal actor in the derogatory conversation, but some admitted to participating.

“For many white students, they felt bad [hearing this talk] and wrote that they wanted to confront their friends but didn’t have the courage,” Picca said. “There is a glimmer of hope for raised awareness of what’s problematic here.”

[BlackLantern]

They only felt bad because they were caught out.....behind closed doors is where people are their true selves

[jaguarr]

They only felt bad because they were caught out.....behind closed doors is where people are their true selves

I would agree with that. It's not something I will tolerate from my friends and I've pooped on more than a few parties when someone decided to start up with that kind of thing. There's no need for it and doing it just demonstrates small-mindedness that I'd rather not be exposed to.

jag

[SuBe]

I would agree with that. It's not something I will tolerate from my friends and I've pooped on more than a few parties when someone decided to start up with that kind of thing. There's no need for it and doing it just demonstrates small-mindedness that I'd rather not be exposed to.

jag
Did you really poop on some parties?

That's gross.

[jaguarr]

Did you really poop on some parties?

That's gross.

If you throw a Fairtax party I'm TOTALLY crashing it.

jag

[Varient]

While I REALLY want things to change,.... The fact that it's "still OK" to do overly racist stuff as long as the rest of the world doesn't notice still raises the hair on the back of my neck.

[BlackLantern]

it's a culture of ignorance that allows that type of thing to continue....it's easier to ignore than it is to actually put in the work to change

[SuBe]

If you throw a Fairtax party I'm TOTALLY crashing it.

jag
You'll be invited. :word:

[T'Jai]

While I REALLY want things to change,.... The fact that it's "still OK" to do overly racist stuff as long as the rest of the world doesn't notice still raises the hair on the back of my neck.
You know what's funny as long as it's done in front of me racists jokes don't bother me. To tell them in front of the "offended party" devalues them as remarks and lends them to amusing antedotes, as long as there funny...

[Varient]

You know what's funny as long as it's done in front of me racists jokes don't bother me. To tell them in front of the "offended party" devalues them as remarks and lends them to amusing antedotes, as long as there funny...

Okay.

Different strokes.

I can't sit and smile at "N" jokes that have the white boys rolling. I have similar issues when it's "B" and "Ho" jokes by any male.

"Funny" doesn't really come into it for me,... I have busted chops on blacks telling Polish jokes - so I'm sure that my sense of humor (What little I have) doesn't roll that way.

It will be a century before I can accept such as easily as I might a Golfing Joke or a Rabbi/Minister/Pope joke,....

Meh.

[T'Jai]

Fair enough I find human stupidity amusing in all it's forms, it keeps the stress levels down and keeps a lot of people from getting hurt...
if they aren't laughing with you they're laughing at you, and that's not at all about race...

then again I take a military attitude about people, you are all worthless maggots until you prove otherwise... ;)

[Varient]

Five of Ten:
(2008)
Black/Red View
Racism and terror
By John Alan

Jena, Louisiana, was an unknown Southern town until a year ago. On the campus of Jena's high school there was a tree called a "white tree," because only white students at Jena's high school were sitting under its branches. When a Black student asked to sit under it, nooses were hung on the tree by three white students.

This noose-hanging by Jena's white students was passed off as a joke. But it is not a joke and every Black person knows that. New noose incidents keep popping up all over the country. When tens of thousands attend demonstrations against this, as occurred on Nov. 16 in Washington, D.C., they are mostly ignored.

The present atmosphere echoes back to a practice of racism in American history when a noose over the head of a Black person meant an actual lynching by a mob of whites. Lynching was a form of all-American terrorism to keep the Black population enslaved after legal emancipation. Racism was and continues to be integral to American capitalism. This theme from my column from May 2002, "Racism and Terror," reprinted below, is as relevant as ever.

--J.A.

* * *

President Bush has declared a war on "terrorism and evil." But his war totally ignores the racist terrorism which is alive and active in this nation today and has been for several centuries.

Many Americans are well aware of the fact that racism is an evil and often violent force in this country. Newspapers print exposes on how the police profile and kill innocent African Americans with impunity. They also point to the race disparity in prison sentencing. A recent documentary on public television revealed that the Miami, Florida police force had systematically framed African Americans by planting guns on them after they were arrested.

However any exposure of racist terrorism in this country today will not by itself cause the two old capitalist parties to seriously oppose it. Both parties feed on it, since the vital source of this terrorism is racism, which is at the very foundation of the social structure of American capitalism.

A racist specter of "evil" African Americans ready and able to spring from their impoverished urban communities to commit crimes against whites has long been used by politicians. President George Bush Sr., the father of President George W. Bush, won his 1988 presidential victory by playing the race card. He accused his Democratic opponent Michael Dukakis of being soft on Black crime because he furloughed an African-American prisoner, Willie Horton, who later raped and murdered a white woman.

New York City's former Mayor Giuliani began his rise by permitting the New York police to terrorize, torture and kill innocent African Americans. Giuliani's police force constructed a regime of terror in the name of combating crime.

Former President Clinton, in a political sense, practiced terrorism. His clap-trap about a crisis in Black "morality" boiled down to getting Congress to enact punitive crime laws, such as the "three strikes and you're out" law--a mandatory life sentence if one is convicted of a third felony--as well as mandatory minimum sentences for minor drug offenders and the construction of more prisons. The result of those punitive laws are two million in jail and prison of which African-American men and women compose 50%.

U.S. LEGAL AND 'ILLEGAL' TERROR

Imprisonment of such a large number of African Americans, by the political action of a supposedly liberal president, says more about the depth of racism in American society than about actual or alleged crimes committed by those African Americans. In many parts of this nation, the very presence of African Americans implies crime in the thinking of white Americans and gives the police a reason to profile or shoot African Americans.

What history has clearly shown is: legal equality and political freedom do not, in themselves, abolish the practices of racism, sexism and classism in America's "democratic" capitalist society.

African Americans have been engaged in a ceaseless struggle against racist terrorism. Once freed from chattel slavery, they discovered they were not at all free, but landless people existing under the terrorism of lynch mobs. The Tuskegee Institute's conservative numbers show 3,426 African Americans were lynched between 1882 and 1947. Lynching was a brutal and a dehumanizing affair. Before hundreds and even thousands of spectators the victim was often stripped naked, mutilated and burned alive. No president of the United States ever intervened to stop those grisly affairs, even when the victim was the African-American postmaster of Lake City, S.C.

NO REPARATIONS YET FOR TULSA

May 31 is the anniversary of one of the many race riots against African Americans, in Tulsa, Oklahoma. In 1921 deputy sheriffs and national guardsmen carried out one of the most violent acts of terrorism, killing 300 and making 10,000 homeless. To this day there has been no official acknowledgment of this state-sponsored terror, not to mention reparations for the still-living survivors. That is true even though Congress appropriated $29 million, after Timothy McVeigh blew up the Murrah Federal Building, to fund the Oklahoma City National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism.

One cannot help but recognize that the long struggle against racist terrorism has both put American civilization on trial and given a greater dimension to the idea of freedom than the founding fathers were able to recognize or imagine. Then, as now, the fundamental issue is not pompous declarations about the evil of terrorism, but everyday human relationships.

[Varient]

Six of Ten
(2008)
Source: http://blog.frivolousmotion.com/2008/02/election-2008-racism-still-exists.html
Election 2008: Racism Still Exists
This morning, two of my coworkers asked me who I voted for in last night’s primary. Upon hearing that my support went to Barack Obama, they responded with absolute horror. No, not just incredulity. Horror. Shock. Disgust. I’m serious.

“What do you think is going to happen to America if that guy...you know he’s black...you kids don’t know...you don’t know what it was like...when that black guy was Mayor of New York - Dinkins - do you think that was good...I’m telling you right now, white people are going to have a hard time...I would never vote for him...” and on and on.

Effectively what they were saying was that electing Barack Obama as President would turn the United States of America into the United States of African-America, a place where blacks hold uncompromising power over whites and other minorities.

To which I say, quite frankly, “What the ****?!”

These women - one is from Russia and the other from Peru - both U.S. Citizens now (interesting, perhaps, though I’m sure that has less than nothing to do with their feelings) - just shook my faith in the American electorate. Not because they want someone other than Obama to win (one of them didn’t even vote, and hundreds of thousands of other people want someone else, too), but their (lack of) reasoning for it. I mean, I’m not asking other people to carefully consider the policies and qualifications of the candidates. I guess all I’m looking for is a shred of rationality - even merely a little excitement about one candidate in particular - a sense that the motivation is rooted in something other than being strongly against (and especially for racist, sexist, or related reasons) the others.

I tried to argue that just because they didn’t like New York City under Mayor Dinkins (and here my other coworker piped up to say that he liked Dinkins), that didn’t mean that America under Obama would be remotely similar. The assertion that not all black people are exactly the same, just as not all white people are exactly the same (duh) fell on deaf ears.

One of these women actually indicated that if Hillary Clinton did not win the Democratic race, she would, without a doubt, vote for “that other guy” - a politician on the “other side” whose name she didn’t even know.

I have never - never, not once, ever, in my entire life - personally experienced the expression of sentiments like those to which I was a witness this morning. Never.

How naive of me to think that we had somehow moved past this kind of hateful, hurtful stuff. The way they said to me, “You want a black man to be President?” with such disregard for the possibility that I might have black relatives or close friends - just an assumption that I was somehow betraying my “race” - really hurt. And it was really disappointing. I really hurt for them, too.

One thing I agreed with: “You kids don’t know what it’s like.”

Nothing could be more true.

And, given the taste I got this morning, nothing could be more welcome.

[BlackLantern]

Ok...I've been hearing that here in Connecticut ever since it was whispered that Obama might run for President....

[Varient]

Seven of Ten:
Playing Through the Pain - Part one

Ask sports fans from across the country to describe Boston, and you'll hear this: "City of Champions." Ask athletes themselves the same question, and you'll hear it described in very different terms: as a city of racists. If it's not a fair label anymore, as so many of us insist, then why won't it go away?
By John Gonzalez
Illustration by Thomas Fuchs.Page 1 of 5

A quarter of the way into his first season in Boston, things are going as well as anyone could have expected for Kevin Garnett. He’s got the Celtics off to one of their best starts ever, and after years of futility the team is considered a genuine championship contender. In the process, Garnett has been embraced by the city—fawned over and bragged about by fans and journalists alike. It’s been a pretty smooth ride. But it didn’t begin that way.

Just six short months ago, news of Garnett’s supposed feelings about Boston had the city cringing. I was in my car when it happened, listening as Michael Wilbon, the Washington Post columnist and cohost of ESPN’s Pardon the Interruption, spoke on Dan Patrick’s national ESPN radio show, putting the city on the defensive. Again. It was the day of the 2007 NBA draft, and Garnett was said to have opposed any trade from the Minnesota Timberwolves to the Celtics. This was before KG relented, of course, and people were imagining all kinds of reasons for his refusing to come here, chief among them the fact that the Celtics had been dreadful in recent seasons. But Wilbon was pretty sure there was more to it than that.

“First of all, it’s a bad team,” Wilbon opined. “Second of all, you have this history of bigotry against African-American people in Boston. The only place I’ve ever been confronted, multiple times, and been called the n-word to my face, is specifically the Boston Garden.... The fact is, Boston has that history, and black players know that, and they do not want to go voluntarily to Boston.” When asked by Patrick whether he thought that perception factored into Garnett’s unwillingness to be traded here, Wilbon said, “I know it does. Yeah. Sure. Absolutely.” He later added that racism “might have been our issue at one point, but now it’s [Boston’s] issue.”

There were qualifiers before and after those comments. Wilbon credited the Celtics for being one of the first teams in the NBA to feature black players. And he stipulated that he didn’t think Boston today is much different from other major cities. But that didn’t matter. All anyone heard was Wilbon calling Boston racist. And that’s all anyone needed to hear.

Not long after, Angels outfielder Gary Matthews Jr. weighed in with commentary of his own. “They’re loud, they’re drunk, they’re obnoxious,” Matthews told the Los Angeles Times, referring to Sox fans, and added that Fenway is “one of the few places you’ll hear racial comments.” It was an extemporaneous remark, one the reporter never asked him to elaborate on or provide specifics for—and as casually as it was thrown out, it was just as readily accepted as fact, with other national outlets, once again, quickly picking up the story. In that way, it smacked of a familiar pattern: Every few years, someone in the sports world comes along and says something similar. (Back in 2004, it was Barry Bonds telling reporters he wouldn’t play here because “it’s too racist.”)

Months after making his inflammatory comments, Wilbon tells me, “I wasn’t saying that Boston is a racist place. I was saying that this is a conversation that black people have. How separate are the worlds of black and white people for white people not to know that black people have this conversation? And not just black people but people of color. This conversation has been going on forever.” But that’s where Wilbon is wrong. We know the conversation goes on. It’s just that most people around here would rather not join in. Some recuse themselves entirely, some angrily dismiss the assertions, and still others run the other way, tossing denials over their shoulders: That’s not us. They don’t know us. I won’t dignify that. None of which is very effective when it comes to changing anyone’s impressions. Accordingly, just as people “know” it rains in Seattle, they’re certain Boston is racist.

So whatever you may think about Wilbon’s comments on the radio that day, he was right about one thing: It is Boston’s issue.

[Varient]

Seven of ten - Part two (Playing Through the Pain - continued)

The Wilbon situation reminded me of what a friend from Dallas said before I moved here a few years ago. He’s a fairly big sports personality down in Texas. He also happens to be black, and he told me to watch myself in Boston, warning that anyone with “brown skin” isn’t welcome.

More than anything, we have busing to thank for that reputation. There’s no getting around it. Instead of inspiring racial harmony, the experiment failed miserably as white parents threw stones at busloads of frightened black children without compunction. Boston has been known ever since as the racist city of segregated enclaves like Southie and Charlestown.

Of course, other cities have been plagued by race problems, too. L.A. suffered the Watts riots in 1965, and those that followed the Rodney King verdict in 1992. Just last May, cops there violently broke up a peaceful immigration rally by using what the police chief later termed “inappropriate” force. In New York City, officers pumped 41 shots into unarmed immigrant Amadou Diallo in 1999.

More recently, the NYPD killed an 18-year-old mentally ill black man when officers mistook his hairbrush for a gun. And yet the issue of racism plagues Boston more than most. Somehow, it has become a part of the city’s identity.

As is so often the case in Boston, the incidents most passionately recalled are tied to sports. There’s the one about the Sox giving Jackie Robinson a tryout, then running him out of town, supposedly at the request of owner Tom Yawkey. The Red Sox were, infamously, the last team in the majors to integrate when they finally signed Pumpsie Green—12 long years after Robinson became a Dodger and, more important, a powerful symbol of change. Bud Collins, the legendary sportswriter who started out at the Herald in the 1950s, was once scolded for even suggesting that someone at the paper write about the Sox and racism. In his brilliant, brutally honest book Shut Out: A Story of Race and Baseball in Boston, ESPN’s Howard Bryant, who grew up here and worked as a sports columnist for the Herald, details the rebuke Collins received from his bosses: “‘They told me I had a lot to learn about their town,’ Collins remembered.”

The animus toward black athletes wasn’t exclusive to the Red Sox. Celtics Hall of Famer Bill Russell may have been named one of the NBA’s 50 greatest players, but that didn’t shield him from bigotry during his playing days. Russell, who once called Boston a “flea market of racism,” even had vandals break into his home just to defecate in his bed. His teammates also felt the hatred. “We were living in Framingham when I was a player,” recalls Celtics Hall of Famer K. C. Jones. “I went to buy a house about five blocks away.... The neighbors said they didn’t want any blacks to move into the house.” Another time, Jones applied for membership at a country club, only to be told they weren’t fond of “entertainers.” Still, Jones is quick to point out that he enjoyed his time in Boston, and that things have changed. He even calls me back to make sure I note that he harbors no ill will. He stresses this. But he also knows that the city’s racism didn’t end with him or Russell.

Red Sox outfielder Tommy Harper had an experience similar to Jones’s. In 1973, during spring training in Winter Haven, Florida, he and other black players were not invited to dinners his white teammates attended at a segregated local club. Twelve years later, while working as a member of the Sox coaching staff, he described the incident to the Globe. Within a year he was fired. He eventually brought a discrimination lawsuit against the club that resulted in a settlement. Not long afterward, Jim Rice—for years the lone black Sox player—supposedly told a young Ellis Burks to leave the city as fast as he could.

“Having gone to school up there for three years, it was always an issue, and there were places where you were told, ‘Don’t go,’” says NBA Hall of Famer Julius “Dr. J” Erving, who starred at UMass before becoming a Celtics antagonist with the New York Nets and Philadelphia 76ers. “Jim Rice and I were friendly, and we had racial discussions. It was this undertone more than anything blatant. It was rough up there for athletes.”

Even as late as the 1980s, the symbol for sports in Boston—and, really, the city as a whole—was Larry Bird’s Celtics. A team of predominately white superstars, the Celtics were seen as a counterbalance to Magic Johnson’s “Showtime” Lakers. That white fans in Boston and across the country rallied so passionately behind those Celtics, that they privately loved seeing a white team excel in a league consisting mostly of black players, rankled many African Americans. Former Detroit Pistons star Isiah Thomas drew the ire of many in Boston when he said that had Bird been black, he would have been just another good player.

Then there is former Celtic Dee Brown, who, after being drafted in 1990, was driving through Wellesley when he was pulled from his car by the police and held face-down on the pavement at gunpoint. The cops were looking for a bank robber. A black man.

And yet, like K. C. Jones, Brown doesn’t want anyone to get the wrong idea: He loves Boston. “One incident happens and people dwell on it. It happens in every city, but Boston is stigmatized by it,” Brown says. He repeatedly tells me that he has nothing but fond memories of playing here, that he wishes people would know the whole story before so quickly judging the city. “If you go back in history, especially with the Celtics, they had the first black player. The first black coach. There are a lot of things people forget to put in there. There are racial problems in every city. You go to the wrong neighborhood in any city and you’re black or you’re white or Hispanic or Italian or Irish, you might be in the wrong place.”

Despite defending Boston to anyone who will listen, and especially to me, Brown acknowledges that altering the perception of the city is a difficult task. He knows because he’s tried, making his case to players and journalists alike. He hasn’t gotten very far. Most of the bitterness toward Boston is so deeply rooted now that it feels almost impossible to change anyone’s mind. A lot of it goes back decades, festering for as long as some people have been alive. “People think the core of Boston is Italian and Irish,” Brown says. “The Celtic. The Patriot. The Tea Party. Paul Revere. It’s that history.... Being from Florida or the South, people would say to me, ‘Boston’s just like Up South.’ That’s what they called it: Up South.”

[Varient]

Seven of ten - Part three (Playing Through the Pain - continued)


Some people still call it that. Some players call Boston much worse. And because the athletic community is very much a fraternity, those sentiments harden and are passed from one person to the next. The effect is rote learning, a unified belief that the city is racially intolerant.

“From the African-American athletes I speak to, it’s accurate to say that the perception is out there,” says Stephen A. Smith, ESPN’s volatile but well-sourced NBA analyst. “There are the Paul Pierces of the world, and they rave about Boston. But, from the outside looking in...it’s extremely prevalent and pretty much common that athletes think Boston is not that receptive to improving race relations. Understand something: When this city celebrates its tradition, what they’re saying—at least in the eyes of some in the African-American community—is ‘Those were the good old days. We liked the way it was.’ Well, black people didn’t. We had a problem with the way it was.”

And those problems eventually hurt Boston teams where it counted most—on the field. Early on, Yawkey and the Sox didn’t want anything to do with black players. But in time, the reverse became true and black athletes didn’t want anything to do with Boston. In his book, Bryant reports that there have been plenty of great black baseball players who either said they were reluctant to come to Boston or had language written into their contracts specifically preventing them from being traded here: superstars like Ken Griffey Jr., Albert Belle, David Justice, Tim Raines, Dave Winfield, and Gary Sheffield. Ultimately, it wasn’t some abstract curse that kept the Sox from winning a World Series for 86 years. It was their refusal, and then their inability, to put the best athletes in uniform.

It probably doesn’t help Boston’s reputation among black players that when they’re here, they are not often surrounded by people who look like them.

Boston’s suburbs are the country’s third whitest, which contributes to the fact that the metro area has about half the black population of cities of comparable size. As Guy Stuart, a lecturer in public policy at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, notes, Boston’s black population is also disproportionately foreign-born: Where the national average is about 7 percent, Stuart says, here it’s closer to 26 percent. “They’re more likely to be Haitian or Cape Verdean in Boston,” he explains.

The notion that Boston isn’t a “black city”—that it doesn’t have the same African-American presence as, say, Atlanta or DC—is something that I heard several times while reporting this story. Several people told me they’d conducted their own informal sociological observations while in Boston, and the results made them uncomfortable. “I’ve traveled all over the world, all over the country, and I never look around in most cities and see how many black people are in a place,” says Jerome Solomon, who covered the Pats for the Globe before moving to the Houston Chronicle. “But when I was in Boston, I was like, ‘Man, I’m always the only black guy here’.... The perception when it comes to athletes is that same thing.” To Solomon, that Boston is a racist city is less a matter of conjecture than of reality. “I’ll say this, if you talk to an athlete—and I talk to dozens every week—if you bring up Boston, racism is always the first thing that comes up, regardless of the sport they play.

Basketball and football especially.... With guys who have recently left, they’ll talk about it freely. Guys that I’ve talked to, they’ll say, ‘Oh, man, I thought you were in Boston.’ When I say I’m in Houston, the response is always ‘You had to get away from those racists in Boston, huh?’ And I’ll say, ‘Well, it was cold, too.’”

[Varient]

Seven of ten - Part four (Playing Through the Pain - continued)

There is an undeniable paradox in a New England city ostensibly filled with progressives, located in a state run by the nation’s second black governor, being repeatedly described as bigoted. Because in some ways things have changed, and so has Boston. Where once the town’s heroes were white men named Yaz and Larry, today the biggest stars, along with Tom Brady, are unquestionably Papi and Manny, KG and Randy Moss—men who defy old stereotypes about who Boston will or won’t embrace.

“In the case of Boston, what’s interesting is that it’s known for certain ethnicities—Irish and Italian,” says University of Southern California professor Todd Boyd, one of ESPN’s go-to experts on matters of race. “But it’s never been seen as a black city. On the other hand, it has a reputation for being a liberal city. That’s ironic, and I think, for some people, that’s a bit of a contradiction that’s caused some confusion. Well, how can a city with such a liberal history be racist? These are the things that need to be discussed. We need to talk about it openly.”

During his three seasons in Boston, Celtics center Al Jefferson was willing to discuss the issue of racism, though he never quite understood what the big deal was. “People always ask me if it’s true, if Boston’s like that,” says Jefferson, 22, a Mississippi native. “The only thing I have bad to say about Boston is it’s cold. I never experienced anything bad about Boston. Never. The only time I ever hear about it is when I go back home and the older cats ask me about Boston. Tell you the truth, I didn’t even know it was a big issue.” Jefferson, of course, was traded from Boston to Minnesota in the deal that made Garnett the Hub’s latest crush. “Kevin Garnett is in for the most glorious experience of his life,” says Bill Walton, who spent three years in a Celtics uniform, and who now does NBA commentary for ESPN.

So yes, some things have changed, because it’s hard to imagine Garnett or anyone else getting a warmer reception from such a chilly place. Which makes it all the more curious that Boston has been unable to shed its nasty reputation. “Have racist things happened in Boston? Not to me, but they’ve happened,” says Charles Barkley, who regularly visited the city as a member of the Philadelphia 76ers, and who is now an NBA studio analyst for TNT. “But racist things have happened to me in Philly and Arizona. The media always uses race. It’s one of their aces in the hole.... It’s easy. If you say something about race, you’re going to get people to respond.” Barkley adds that racism in general isn’t as big a problem for athletes today as it used to be. Insulated by wealth and fame, the current generation has been spared the hard experiences of those who came before them, as well as of the average black person. It’s a difficult point to argue. Unfortunately, though, that’s really not the issue. How racist Boston is perceived to be is far less important than the fact that the perception continues to exist at all.

What also continues is Boston’s visceral reaction whenever someone so much as hints that the city is prejudiced. Some of Boston’s anger may be caused by guilt over its previous wrongs, and some of it may be a genuine belief that the city’s identity should no longer be tied to its ugly past. Either way, it’s self-defeating. Because in Boston’s haste to defend itself—to deny, deny, deny—it simply perpetuates the perception. It’s automatic now, like a child who puts his fingers in his ears or his hands over his eyes in an attempt to avoid something unpleasant. But we all know that never makes the bad thing go away.

[Varient]

Seven of ten - Part five (Playing Through the Pain - continued)


Consider what happened with Gary Matthews Jr. After his observations about Fenway fans, he was shouted down here in Boston, angrily dismissed as a “steroid abuser” on one notable Sox fan site, and called an idiot on local radio shows. There was no discussion—only derision. However ill-informed Matthews may have been, the more effective way to have dealt with his comments would have been to rationally discuss them, to win the debate by the preponderance of evidence. Instead, he was told, essentially, to just shut up, which made it look as if Boston had something to hide. By the time the Angels arrived at Fenway a few weeks later, he refused to speak to me about what he’d said.

As for Garnett, he contended that Wilbon had never talked to him. In any case, when Garnett first arrived, he said, he’d asked around and been convinced that the city’s reputation was outdated. But like a lot of locals, he hasn’t really had much to say about racism since then. And so instead of the wound being healed, it remains raw. That’s a shame, because an ask-me-anything session with KG at the time of Wilbon’s comments might have prevented the media frenzy. More important, it would have been cathartic for the city. It’s hardly surprising, however, that it didn’t happen.

While reporting this story, I reached out to the Celtics, Red Sox, and Patriots, asking for interviews with current players, coaches, and front office members. The Celtics gave me the runaround before ultimately passing. The Red Sox and Patriots failed to do even that much; they simply didn’t acknowledge the requests. An attempt to speak with Mayor Tom Menino, who made improved race relations a key issue during the Boston Miracle, was met with similar stonewalling. Countless e-mails and phone calls to the mayor’s public relations office yielded platitudes from his flacks, but no interview.

The city’s reputation for racism endures because we don’t want to talk about it, because the press seems more interested in reporting on the controversy than in initiating a useful dialogue, because athletes are more careful today than they’ve ever been. There aren’t many Bill Russells anymore—someone who speaks his mind because his conscience demands it. Russell once told me he thought of himself as a man first and a basketball player second. These days, with millions riding on endorsement contracts and a capricious media to navigate, candor is seen as bad business. In a way, that’s understandable, but it would be a powerful thing to hear from more of today’s athletes. Because what Russell realized that so many current players still don’t is this: The best way to move forward is often to deal with the past.

To that end, the city itself could probably learn something from the experiences of Guy Stuart, the Kennedy School lecturer. Before he came to Boston, Stuart, who is white, spent a decade working in black communities in Chicago. It was there that he learned a useful lesson: If you want to improve race relations, “don’t go around simply saying you’re not racist.”

[BlackLantern]

Garnett and the Celtics won, that is the only reason Boston has been so 'receptive'....let Boston have a couple bad seasons and see how 'receptive' Boston is....you'll see nooses in the Garden

[Varient]

Eight of Ten (2008)
Racist Joke at Obama's Expense Leaves Banquet Crowd Gasping
Posted by Melissa McEwan, Shakesville at 5:51 AM on January 18, 2008.



Did ya get the "joke" there? Obama is black. And the White House is white. And they don't...match. Good one.
Haw Haw! Bein' Black is Funny! And I'm a big dumb cracker!


A Greeley businessman apologized Wednesday after a joke about Illinois Sen. Barack Obama fell flat during the National Western Stock Show's annual Citizen of the West banquet.


William R. Farr was pretending to read telegrams congratulating this year's award recipient, University of Colorado President Hank Brown, when he pulled out a piece of paper and said, "I have a telegram from the White House."


Then he added, "They're going to have to change the name of that building if Obama's elected."


Witnesses said they could hear people gasp in the ballroom of the Adam's Mark Hotel.


"I gasped," said Gov. Bill Ritter, who was sitting at the table with Farr.

Did ya get the "joke" there? Obama is black. And the White House is white. And they don't...match.

Good one.

Farr strikes me as one of those white people who just. can't. talk about a person of color (or to a person of color) without being uncomfortably hyper-aware of that person being a different color than he is. So a black presidential candidate is his worst nightmare; he can't talk about, or even think about, the guy without being overwhelmed by thoughts about his race. He has to mention it. If he didn't have "jokes" like these, he'd be reduced to blurting out: "Did you all know a BLACK GUY is running for president?!" every time it crosses his mind.

And, frankly, he might as well. It wouldn't be any less awkward.

[Varient]

Nine of Ten :
The 2008 Definition of Racism (By a Black Man.)

I was not going to talk about this stuff any more, but Louis Gray’s post on the “racist underbelly” of the web struck a deep chord. He describes how two black bloggers, Wayne Sutton and Corvida, had a live Yahoo video chat to discuss Loren Feldman and the Tech ***** incident, and the anonymous overtly racist chatter in the video’s text chat room. It was painful to read, but I realized it provided me an opportunity to talk about what I think is a really big important issue.

Unlike in 1964, the year I was born, today few people are comfortable being labeled as racist. The successful tactics of protesting, boycotting, and social and pressure have been incredibly effective in applying shame to the label.

Unfortunately, in demonizing, racism, we have done two things. First we have driven the unrepentant racists underground, and into anonymity. And second, we have sanded down the meaning of the term so substantially that almost no acts committed by those outside the underground anonymous can be categorized as such.

The difficulty in fighting an anonymous invisible enemy is obvious. But what I really want to discuss is the issue of how we have defined racism and how, in the future, we should define it.

Today, racism’s definition is so circumscribed, that for many it is almost impossible to find a valid use case. For many, it would require calling a black man a ****** or saying, I hate black people, or doing something equivalently overt. Of course, for some, even the use of the word ****** does not warrant the racism label, since black people use it amongst themselves. It’s not fair, defenders say, to give a word to black people that white people can’t use.

Interestingly, for many, it’s also not valid to label language as racist if it not in the form of a statement. It’s a bit like Jeopardy. Any potentially racist language is not racist if you change the form to a question, or in Loren Feldman’s case, a joke. Then you can, apparently, say absolutely anything.

And so by these measures, there are many who feel that Loren Feldman’s Tech ***** was not racist. And while it is true that the majority of people are not supportive, there are many people who are, some aggressively so.

Within this supportive group, first there are, of course, the folks that are openly though anonymously racist. I don’t have statistics but my sense is that, when hiding behind anonymity, this is not a small group. I say this based on purely anecdotal evidence such as exit polling in democratic primaries in Apalachia, support on discussion forums for Michael Richards, and, indeed, response to the Corvida/Wayne Sutton chat.

But the most troubling group to me, as I discussed on Monday, are the ones that just don’t think this kind of material is a big deal. They believe blacks are too “thin skinned” about this stuff. “What’s the big deal, it’s all in fun.” Or to protest is violating Feldman’s right to free speech. This group fascinates me, and as far as I can tell, it a not inconsequential percentage of the tech blogosphere.

Then, there is another part of the tech blogosphere that is either afraid to speak up, or feels the discussion is beneath them. I have several prominent and/or powerful friends who are bloggers who have said this. Or they have said, “I don’t want to get involved.” I have to say hearing this hurts.

And so, given how hurtful and damaging all of this stuff is, at least to us black folks, I thought I would explain why.

For many of you who are in your twenties of early thirties, there is no context for the civil rights movement. For example I have been having a discussion with Tom from TomsTechBlog, and yesterday he actually stated, in defense of the argument that protesting Loren Feldman was immoral, that threatening boycotts was actually illegal. I really don’t mean to pick on Tom because despite the fact that I think he is really ignorant of the facts and the social context of these issues, I truly believe he is a decent person.

But the fact that he holds such views, and many of you do, means there is still more that needs to be said. And so, a little context.

As background, I was born in Harlem, in the midst of the civil rights movement. My father was an active participant in that movement. His best friend was Congressman Adam Clayton Powell, to whom he served as counselor. Adam (as he was affectionately known to everyone in Harlem) is, to this day, the most productive legislator in the history of congress as well as the most powerful black legislator in congressional history. He is revered in Harlem, the community I grew up in, and to which I have returned to live.

As a child I was present as amazing things were happening. I observed as great people planned and fought so that I would have opportunities that they did not. Despite having a master’s degree in education and before getting his law degree, the best job my father could get was as a sorter in the post office. The civil rights movement mattered on so many levels. Not that I fully understood what was going on, but it was happening all around me, and I could not miss its import. They fought the evil ideas, and the evil people. And they won. And in so doing they helped to change the country.

Admittedly and thankfully, this country is far, far better today. And the reason my father was able to go from being a mail sorter to practicing law and later to become a judge, and the reason that I can write this blog, and do the work I do, is because of the many great people, white and black, leaders and followers who protested, boycotted, and resisted. I view peaceful resistance and dissent, as not only a right, but a responsibility for those of us who value decency, and indeed democracy.

To suggest that the right thing to do is to be silent in the face of racist words, or worse, to suggest that not being silent, or that protesting or boycotting or threatening boycotts is wrong, is to wipe away and invalidate what, for me, is the part of American history that has made my life possible, that is, peaceful protest. And what is apparent to me is that there is a current, younger generation that has in many cases never known about things that are recent enough for me to actually remember.

And so the point is, context is important. Damaging words can and do lead people to bad places, and to do bad things and to feel bad thoughts. Adam Powell’s instituting a prohibition on members of congress from using the word ****** on the floor of the house was important because words really do matter. And bad words and ideas cannot just lay unaddressed.

Coming back to Tech *****, there are those that say that its all just words, and that words are just, well, words. It’s just jokes, and so how harmful could it be.

To those who would diminish the significance of the hurt caused by such words, I would ask that you trust me when I say that you are mistaken.

Words matter.

Words influence minds. Minds influence mouths. And hearts. And fists. And paychecks. And guns.

Words matter. In fact almost nothing matters more than words, simple though they are.

And so if words matter, and words can hurt and do damage, how do we define that damage. And how do we define when we are participating in that damage. In short, the definition of racism needs a refresh.

What is racism in 2008?

It is more than just calling someone a ******, or a *****. It is more than shooting someone 51 times. It is more than just skipping a resume because someone has a “black sounding” name. And it is indeed more than having hate in your heart.

In 2008, racism is appeasing the evildoers. It is making jokes that no one finds funny, or even that a few misguided ones do. It is categorizing large swaths of people with words and language that hurt them, even if you have no idea why. It is questioning the morals of people when they stand up to defend themselves against language that seeks to further diminish an already weak social standing. In 2008, racism does not require a white hood, or a lynch mob. It does not require that you hate. Yes, the lack of such obvious indicia does not mean there is no racism. Indeed, I know racism when I see it, and I hope you do too.

[terry78]

Yeah, I agree with the above, that racism has become extremely shielded under the veil of "quit being so p.c." or "I don't care if they were black, white, purple, etc." Nowadays the person has blatantly say something for it to be deemed racist, yet so much of it is under the table, no one believes it exists anymore.

[jaguarr]

Yeah, I agree with the above, that racism has become extremely shielded under the veil of "quit being so p.c." or "I don't care if they were black, white, purple, etc." Nowadays the person has blatantly say something for it to be deemed racist, yet so much of it is under the table, no one believes it exists anymore.

This is one of the issues I have with the whole Politically Correct movement. To a certain degree, it's necessary just so folks will be civil and all, but it gets taken wayyyyy too far most of the time. And anyone who thinks that it actually changes people's thinking and eliminates bigotry and racism (and there are a lot of people who think that it does), is delusional. It just makes it fly under the radar more, that's all.

jag

[Varient]

Ten of Ten
racism in 2008 (By a White Man.)

[I swear there's a better update coming on Vanessa, Abigail and all of us. I just wanted to respond to something I read without littering on my friend's blog. :-) ]

Mark Veerman writes about Al Sharpton throwing his weight around and trying to stir the pot WRT Kelly Tilghman's ill-advised comments about Tiger Woods. Alan commented and I think I disagree quite a bit with his comments. This post intends to respond to those comments without sending the deluge to Mark's blog. :-)


Alan, while I respect your experience WRT race relations (which is first-hand and, presumably, more extensive than my own), I have to disagree with your statements, if only on principle. Namely, your assertion that "we are all recovering racists" and pointing to the "broken world" as a manner of justifying that statement is, curiously, prejudiced. You assume that the world's brokenness ensures that each individual is a racist. However, that's no more logical than assuming that the world's brokenness means everyone is a misogynist, or a thief, or disobedient to one's parents, or anything else. True, we are all guilty of breaking the whole of the Law in that we have broken any one part of it, but it's fallacious to insist that we have all broken that one part of it.

Frankly, that sort of attitude inevitably leads to — almost requires — interpreting various actions as racist when, in fact, they might not be. When everyone's a racist at heart, racism ends up driving everything.

I believe that racism still exists. I believe that saying something like "lynch" to or about a black person is probably never the right thing to say. I also believe that it's hardly an appropriate response to treat use of the word "lynch" in the same way you'd respond to an actual lynching. (Perhaps it wasn't quite that bad, but the reaction didn't seem to fit the "crime".) I believe that "the cause" has been largely harmed, especially for American blacks, by Al Sharpton and his ilk, hysterically screaming racism at every turn. When the wolf of racism really does come 'round, the townspeople are too tired of listening to the irresponsible shepherd's false complaints.

Since you mentioned Jesus as a model, let's look at who Jesus called out. The one and only group that Jesus put the screws to were the religious leaders: those who said one thing with their lips, but did another thing, oppressing the masses and living their lives far from God's heart. The funny thing about applying that to this story is that SHARPTON deserves to be called out by every Christian in the world for his shenanigans. Google '"al sharpton" racist' and see the myriad examples of his forked tongue. THAT is who Jesus would call out: a "leader" who does not protect the "flock" he is claiming to represent and care about. (Seriously, just read something like this and see where you think Jesus would come down on the topic.)

Am I just a crazy, ignorant white boy?

[Varient]

Yeah, I agree with the above, that racism has become extremely shielded under the veil of "quit being so p.c." or "I don't care if they were black, white, purple, etc." Nowadays the person has blatantly say something for it to be deemed racist, yet so much of it is under the table, no one believes it exists anymore.

I posted this because this board is FULL OF PEOPLE WHO TAKE THE VIEW THAT YOU SHOULDN'T PROTEST OR COMPLAIN whan someone does something racist.

[Varient]

Garnett and the Celtics won, that is the only reason Boston has been so 'receptive'....let Boston have a couple bad seasons and see how 'receptive' Boston is....you'll see nooses in the Garden

Nine of ten is pointed directly at you.

Your viewpoint is exactly what he speaks of. You promote NOT confronting the issues as they come up, and take pride in having the position that you can't relate because you didn't have to fight for what you have.


V.