Discussion: Gay Rights II

[spideyboy_1111]

I've never seen it, actually.

Not because it's about Gay Cowboys.

Just never had the chance to see it. Never even caught it on cable.

I just heard it was a basic story of forbidden love. With, of course, the biggest deal being that it's between two men instead. I did, and still do, continue to hear great things about Heath's perfromance.

it was a great movie, and i think personally impacted the world the most. Which is why it's still ranked as the best gay movie of all time. It was the first main stream film that focused on nothing but 2 men in love.

[spideyboy_1111]

Some of those signs sounds like truth to me.

The problem, is ultimately the Bible. Because people ultimately take the good book to be the be all, end all for everyone...even if they're not "in" the religion.

It shouldn't be up to vote, though.

well the thing that pisses me off are those who "pick and choose" from the bible. In the same exact section where it speaks of a man lying with another man, it mentions how it's a sin to eat shrimp and pork... well guess what, those who are using there book as an excuse to hate us better not have there lips touching any of those meals either :o They also better acknowledge that there walking into a place of sin every Sunday morning considering Jesus specifically says he didn't want buildings built in his name. :whatever:

[Motown Marvel]

but man o man am i happy.. i totally have the hippie in me coming

i hope you made the hippie wear a condom...they get around.

[BlackLantern]

speaking of Brokeback, there is a deleted scene on the 'Knocked Up' dvd where Jonah Hill goes on a rant about the lack of oral in Brokeback Mountain...it's quite funny

[spideyboy_1111]

There hasn't been much coverage here in the northeast....at least on none of the local news here

local news even here varies. try watching CNN ;)

[spideyboy_1111]

i hope you made the hippie wear a condom...they get around.

haha gross

[spideyboy_1111]

speaking of Brokeback, there is a deleted scene on the 'Knocked Up' dvd where Jonah Hill goes on a rant about the lack of oral in Brokeback Mountain...it's quite funny

tiz true.... never thought of that before.

[spideyboy_1111]

I'm trying to find as much news information as i can to see what celebs have joined arm in arm with us at the protests.. so far i have seen/read about...

Janice Dickenson
Rose McGowan
Lance Bass
Wanda Sykes
James Franco
Zachary Quinto

[spideyboy_1111]

small access hollywood celeb bit
http://www.accesshollywood.com/stars-speak-out-against-prop-8s-passing_video_820501

[The Senator]

I will be protesting on Saturday in front of the DC City Hall... I'm looking forward to it.

[Schlosser85]

"Moral indignation is jealousy in a halo."-
H.G. Wells

[Schlosser85]

"Why is that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands?"-
Ernest Gaines

"No government has the right to tell its citizens when or whom to love. The only queer people are those who don't love anybody."
- Rita Mae Brown

[Schlosser85]

Homophobes...don't be jealous just because we have the backbone to say we're gay and you don't ;)

[spideyboy_1111]

I will be protesting on Saturday in front of the DC City Hall... I'm looking forward to it.

awesome :D that will be great. Please tell us all about it :D

[Franklin Richards]

As an atheist, I say the same thing about agnostics.


Get some balls and just admit it. :D


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Backdrifter]

Because religion has taught so many Americans that they have the right to assassinate the character and integrity of so many people simply because they do not live the lifestyle they themselves approve of.

I think it is important to note that I do not live in California, I never voted for or against that proposition.

Now, I am only going to respond to the above quote because I think this is at the heart of the matter. I am going to respond from the point of view of a Christian from the Reformed tradition.

I partially agree with you that religious people are responsible for a lot of hate a bigotry towards those who are not part of their belief system. Who can deny this? But, I do not think it is entirely fair to make the claim that religion, specifically Christianity teaches this. If we look at the world in which Jesus lived and taught in he was in direct opposition to the kind of people that you are describing: self-righteous legalists. There is one scene in New Testament in which Jesus is eating dinner with a group sinners (tax collectors, prostitutes, etc) Along come some of the self-righteous, legalists that we are all so familiar with and they start questioning why Jesus is hanging out with such shady types. Jesus responds to them by saying ""Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." This is a fundamental truth of the Gospel message. Jesus was interested in saving the lost, the broken, the poor, the weak and the forgotten. Later on, Jesus warns his discples to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. Leaven is yeast. When making a loave of bread, all that is need is just a little bit of yeast which is worked through out the entire loaf, causing it to rise. The "leaven" of the Pharisees is hypocrisy. Jesus describes them as putting themselves on public display as righteous individuals, but on the inside they are dead in their own sin and full of hypocrisy. This would have been extremely offensive to the religious leaders of the day.

So, by taking a good look at the teachings of Jesus, I think it becomes very clear that Christianty does not endorse, encourage or allow for what you are describing. In fact, there are several direct warnings about this very kind of behaviour.

I will say what I said before. The problem is not religoin. The problem is people. People are self-centered, prideful, ignorant, jealous, idoloters. A true believer and follower of Jesus will be the first to admit this and never claim to be any better than anyone else.

Another example is communism. Follow me on this one for just a second. Communism, in theory is a great idea. Every one is equal, everyone gets to eat, everyone gets access to healthcare, etc. But, communism, historically, always turns into an oppresive state that exploits its citizens, and props up just a few select people on the shoulders of the masses who are reduced to poverty. The state controls everything. There is no voice of dissent, because freedom of speech is removed. The state simply exists to perpetuate itself. The problem is not communism, the problem is people.

While I don't agree with homosexuality and I believe it to be immoral, I have several friends who are gay. Do I ignore them or scoff at them because of their lifesyle? Absolutley not. In fact, I have experienced a lot of mocking of my own beliefs from them. We all practice hypocrisy on some level. I think the real solution here is humility.

[cerealkiller182]

I think it is important to note that I do not live in California, I never voted for or against that proposition.

Now, I am only going to respond to the above quote because I think this is at the heart of the matter. I am going to respond from the point of view of a Christian from the Reformed tradition.

I partially agree with you that religious people are responsible for a lot of hate a bigotry towards those who are not part of their belief system. Who can deny this? But, I do not think it is entirely fair to make the claim that religion, specifically Christianity teaches this. If we look at the world in which Jesus lived and taught in he was in direct opposition to the kind of people that you are describing: self-righteous legalists. There is one scene in New Testament in which Jesus is eating dinner with a group sinners (tax collectors, prostitutes, etc) Along come some of the self-righteous, legalists that we are all so familiar with and they start questioning why Jesus is hanging out with such shady types. Jesus responds to them by saying ""Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." This is a fundamental truth of the Gospel message. Jesus was interested in saving the lost, the broken, the poor, the weak and the forgotten. Later on, Jesus warns his discples to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. Leaven is yeast. When making a loave of bread, all that is need is just a little bit of yeast which is worked through out the entire loaf, causing it to rise. The "leaven" of the Pharisees is hypocrisy. Jesus describes them as putting themselves on public display as righteous individuals, but on the inside they are dead in their own sin and full of hypocrisy. This would have been extremely offensive to the religious leaders of the day.

So, by taking a good look at the teachings of Jesus, I think it becomes very clear that Christianty does not endorse, encourage or allow for what you are describing. In fact, there are several direct warnings about this very kind of behaviour.

I will say what I said before. The problem is not religoin. The problem is people. People are self-centered, prideful, ignorant, jealous, idoloters. A true believer and follower of Jesus will be the first to admit this and never claim to be any better than anyone else.

Another example is communism. Follow me on this one for just a second. Communism, in theory is a great idea. Every one is equal, everyone gets to eat, everyone gets access to healthcare, etc. But, communism, historically, always turns into an oppresive state that exploits its citizens, and props up just a few select people on the shoulders of the masses who are reduced to poverty. The state controls everything. There is no voice of dissent, because freedom of speech is removed. The state simply exists to perpetuate itself. The problem is not communism, the problem is people.

While I don't agree with homosexuality and I believe it to be immoral, I have several friends who are gay. Do I ignore them or scoff at them because of their lifesyle? Absolutley not. In fact, I have experienced a lot of mocking of my own beliefs from them. We all practice hypocrisy on some level. I think the real solution here is humility.

Jesus clothed the naked, healed the sick, fed the hungry.

If the Christian religion sees homosexuality as immoral (for whatever stupid unfounded reason) that what would Jesus and the "true" followers of Jesus do with a homosexual. "Cure" him/her?

People are discriminating against others and hiding behind the Bible

[The Senator]

Well, then Christians ought to practice a little humility of their own and stop trying to pry the gospel into the lives of those who obviously do not live by the six verses they claim are against homosexuality. And while your religion may not encourage such behavior, the numerous churches and religious organizations which contributed to this proposition's passage shows otherwise. Comparing homosexuality to bestiality is disgusting, and I have zero respect for any ignoramus who is willing to draw the comparison-- especially when an organization which condoned polygamy less than a hundred years ago is the main offender here.

I saw no humility in the passage of this proposition. All I saw were shallow, discriminatory people who hold their religion higher than the compassion they ought to show for their fellow men. And that compassion does not lie in FORCING your beliefs on people, which was so blatantly done the other day.

[ShadowBoxing]

And why is this? Because religion has taught so many Americans that they have the right to assassinate the character and integrity of so many people simply because they do not live the lifestyle they themselves approve of. We can thank the Mormon church especially for this bigotry.

Yet Religion is often at war with itself over this fact. I have a co-worker, who I feel is smart but lacks basic common sense, and is an Evangelical. I forget exactly how this came up, but I remember it had something to do with Christian bands, either way, he said he had just attended a youth meeting where the minister had basically done a sermon about doing away with the word "Christian" because so many "fake-Christians" were using it. From my many conversations I could only imagine who feel into the latter category.

In the fast-paced lifestyle of Americans I find this man, Kurt, to fall into these belief systems of convenience. I don't really find religion all that troublesome, especially since I see it as the most powerful force from bringing unity and human rights in the world. As a advocate for minorities, I always kept coming back to how religion was used to lift them up out of oppression.

I feel like there are two types of beliefs: ones you fight for and struggle with, and ones that are handed to you. For example, I often struggle with my American-ness in the face of the atrocities done in the name of freedom and justice, yet for some Americans it's as if they are in massive denial about them. For those Americans, who developed their American patriotism probably from watching too many Eighties action films, it's easy for them to be manipulated into believing many, many things that just aren't true when someone uses patriotism as a justification for it. Those people will always exist, whether it's because they are opinionated, stupid or just don't care.

Religion isn't much different. Because of the vast swath of people it attracts it's going to have people who struggle with faith like Mother Thearesa and people who simply use it for their own personal gratification, like Fred Phelps. You have to make differentiations within religion, just as you have to in any belief structure, and I, like Socrates, don't believe in taking the worst example of something as the standard. I'd rather make the standard a healthy body, rather than one that is perverted.

Furthermore, I feel more and more that homosexuals will one day turn to religion to lift themselves up. Using the master's tools to dismantle the masters house is ultimately what lifts minorities out of oppression. That is why religion is such a force of good, because when used by the "unwashed masses" it can be used to sway the elites. It leads to a organization of thoughts and ideals, and creates a singular purpose and destiny. It's that shared destiny that unites Civil Right's movements, and while it doesn't have to be Christianity, it certainly needs to be some shared experience. If you don't have that, you have nothing.

[spideyboy_1111]

Day 1 the Rally in west hollywood
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Day 2 the mormon church and west la march
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P4m5yUhrXj0
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bPAymf9xPMw&feature
1oCB_n4IqZc
Day 4 Silverlake and Hollywood
Warning, this one has some language but it's a very powerful speech.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKniiwy_MUY
qYi-vp9Fgb8
XeWxZoQcHQ0
gwWZXv1IoEE

[Backdrifter]

I've said all I can say. I don't think there is much of a point to this thread beyond this.

[Backdrifter]

A lot of wisdom in that post Shadow.

[spideyboy_1111]

I've said all I can say. I don't think there is much of a point to this thread beyond this.

beyond your point of view? i really hope you meant you have no other point to this thread besides the one you offered, because there is quite frankly alot of points to thrive and continue in this thread by everyone else.

[Motown Marvel]

i havent been keeping up with this stuff to well, but i think its horribly depressing that prop 8 passed and such discrimination is still condoned.

i just recently heard about this turning racial, and i think thats equally horrible. i hope those who are affected by prop 8 know that hate is not the answer to hate. if you believe in the equality and acceptance that you feel deserved, then show that same belief in those you share this world with, no matter who they are, friend or foe. no matter the unjust hate you are burdened by, returning the hate does not solve anything. it merely spreads more hate...and thats the root of this problem to begin with.

i implore anyone who attends these rallies that witnesses race inspired hatred to not let it stand. protest this injustice with positivity and love. because thats what your striving for anyways, you're right to share your love how you see fit.

"in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"
-The Beatles

[spideyboy_1111]

i havent been keeping up with this stuff to well, but i think its horribly depressing that prop 8 passed and such discrimination is still condoned.

i just recently heard about this turning racial, and i think thats equally horrible. i hope those who are affected by prop 8 know that hate is not the answer to hate. if you believe in the equality and acceptance that you feel deserved, then show that same belief in those you share this world with, no matter who they are, friend or foe. no matter the unjust hate you are burdened by, returning the hate does not solve anything. it merely spreads more hate...and thats the root of this problem to begin with.

i implore anyone who attends these rallies that witnesses race inspired hatred to not let it stand. protest this injustice with positivity and love. because thats what your striving for anyways, you're right to share your love how you see fit.

"in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"
-The Beatles

I would like to just say ive been at almost EVERY LA rally/protest, and theres been no racial slurs or racial intolerance at all. So i'm not sure where people are getting that. sure we are angry at parts of the black community by seemingly ignored there own past struggles, refusing to relate the with ours, and voting YES on 8... But were definately not mad at the community as a whole and the blacks who are with us would not tolerate that action at all. Now if a black man walks up to us and puts a thumb down or flips us off, they might get a pretty bad reaction (even by there own kind) attacked? no. But he may get called something pretty unfriendly or a big rally of "shame on you" at him, which i believe is ok. If you're going to be an ass, one should expect that reaction.

over all, our protesting has been praised for its peacefulness and that's the message we are trying to get across.

[The Senator]

I've said all I can say. I don't think there is much of a point to this thread beyond this.

Yes, now that Stewie has spoken, we should totally close this thread.

:dry:

[Motown Marvel]

I would like to just say ive been at almost EVERY LA rally/protest, and theres been no racial slurs or racial intolerance at all. So i'm not sure where people are getting that. sure we are angry at parts of the black community by seemingly ignored there own past struggles, refusing to relate the with ours, and voting YES on 8... But were definately not mad at the community as a whole and the blacks who are with us would not tolerate that action at all. Now if a black man walks up to us and puts a thumb down or flips us off, they might get a pretty bad reaction (even by there own kind) attacked? no. But he may get called something pretty unfriendly or a big rally of "shame on you" at him, which i believe is ok. If you're going to be an ass, one should expect that reaction.

over all, our protesting has been praised for its peacefulness and that's the message we are trying to get across.

im quite certain that most people you've protested with are peaceful, which is fantastic and i commend you for. but if someone calls a black man a n****r because he called him a f****t, thats gonna get lots of attention in the media and it does no one any good. nor is it in any ways justified on any level. it will only spread flames that will divide and can not be controlled and will kill your cause. none of this needs to turn racial in any way. i can only assume that this is happening to some degree because i've seen it reported. and im just saying, that is something that should be avoided at all costs, because it will never be appropriate. so if you see it happen, let that person know, behavior like that is unacceptable and not the message you're trying to spread. and if thats how they're going to act, then they are not welcome to protest at your side.

also, having expectations of the black community simply because of their past plight is an unfair expectation. i totally understand how the situations are damn near similar so it makes sense that they'd be sympathetic..but it doesnt work like that. and having that expectation only sets you up for disappointment, which can easily turn to anger.

[spideyboy_1111]

im quite certain that most people you've protested with are peaceful, which is fantastic and i commend you for. but if someone calls a black man a n-word because he called him a f-word, thats gonna get lots of attention in the media and it does no one any good. nor is it in any ways justified on any level. it will only spread flames that will divide and can not be controlled and will kill your cause. none of this needs to turn racial in any way. i can only assume that this is happening to some degree because i've seen it reported. and im just saying, that is something that should be avoided at all costs, because it will never be appropriate. so if you see it happen, let that person know, behavior like that is unacceptable and not the message you're trying to spread. and if thats how they're going to act, then they are not welcome to protest at your side.

also, having expectations of the black community simply because of their past plight is an unfair expectation. i totally understand how the situations are damn near similar so it makes sense that they'd be sympathetic..but it doesnt work like that. and having that expectation only sets you up for disappointment, which can easily turn to anger.

Well i can't speak for everyone, i've yet to see the "was called n-word because he called him a f-word" incident, but it wouldn't surprise me, as peaceful as i am too, my insides would be bursting to say that. I doubt i would, but on the inside i totally would due to the fact douche bags tend to only know how to speak douche.

But you can't judge one incident on an entire group. And I find it appauling that media would even run a story like that due to the fact F-word to us is the exact same as them getting called N-word. Two wrongs def dont make a right, and it was probably only one or 2 people calling that person that, and they were probably shut up fairly quickly. The rest of the crowed most likely would have yelled the "shame on you" chant. We are very peaceful, even when others are not.

as for expectations... i just find it sad that they refuse to related to it... even when we have the NAACP backing us.

[Motown Marvel]

Well i can't speak for everyone, i've yet to see the "was called n!gger because he called him a f@ggot" incident, but it wouldn't surprise me, as peaceful as i am too, my insides would be bursting to say that. I doubt i would, but on the inside i totally would due to the fact douche bags tend to only know how to speak douche.

But you can't judge one incident on an entire group. And I find it appauling that media would even run a story like that due to the fact F@ggot to us is the exact same as them getting called N!gger. Two wrongs def dont make a right, and it was probably only one or 2 people calling that person that, and they were probably shut up fairly quickly. The rest of the crowed most likely would have yelled the "shame on you" chant. We are very peaceful, even when others are not.

yeah, i just know that one negative thing will get ten times the spotlight of anything positive. and i would hate to see this noble cause get dragged down because of incidents like this. i would hope that leaders of these protests would recognize these reported incidents early on and cut it off at the head by making it clear to the protesters that such behavior is unacceptable and counter-productive. once theres a hint of racial tension, things can spiral out of control far too easily.

as for expectations... i just find it sad that they refuse to related to it... even when we have the NAACP backing us.

its understandable you feel this way. i mean, no matter the color of anyones skin or past injustices, its sad that ANYONE would be against this. but what the black community has suffered is something very personal to them, just like this is very personal to you. and despite the similarities, and as ideal as it would seem, you cant expect support from anyone for whatever reasons.

[Paradoxium]

Let's be honest, there is going to be some racial undertones with these protest because of the voting trend of the black and latino community. Some people are going to cross that line. The whole point of posting that article is so people are aware this is happening and if anyone sees it happening, they tell them to cut the ******** out.

[spideyboy_1111]

Let's be honest, there is going to be some racial undertones with these protest because of the voting trend of the black and latino community. Some people are going to cross that line. The whole point of posting that article is so people are aware this is happening and if anyone sees it happening, they tell them to cut the ******** out.

exactly. And i can't stress that enough. there will be A-holes on either side no matter how you much you try to stop it from happening. You can't stop certain people, and we are doing everything in our power to express peaceful protesting. because if not, im sure 50% or more would have stormed the gates of the mormon temple leveled that gaudy eye sore of a cult if they deemed right. But we all know that that just makes us look like the bad guy.. so we remain peaceful


im not sure how the protesting went today, i'm on hiatus for a few days, but they went to the mormon temple this morning with there mouths taped, during what im assuming would be there morning services.

[Franklin Richards]

Rabbits are keen.

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Paradoxium]

mine is already censored to a degree with asterisks (quotation), I asterisked it more to be safe

[spideyboy_1111]

some more good news

http://www.ktla.com/content_landing_page/?Pasadena-Church-Vows-to-Ignore-Same-Sex-=1&blockID=130297&feedID=171


Pasadena Church Vows to Ignore Same-Sex Marriage Ban

Maya Sanchez, KTLA News

November 9, 2008

PASADENA -- 'Although in this election, Proposition 8 passed, it will not succeed.'

That rebuke, preached from the pulpit of All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena. Clergy vowed to ignore California's ban on same sex marriage, passed last Tuesday.

'We will continue to bless same sex unions here until we can once again legally celebrate same gender weddings here,' proclaimed the Reverend J. Edwin Bacon.

Outside, the church underscored its commitment with a symbolic celebration featuring a
wedding cake... and several same sex couples married since June 17th.

'Most people are still under the impression that we can change and we can't. It's in our DNA,' said Gary Dahle.

However, supporters of Prop 8 insist-- the people have decreed-- that marriage is
ordained by God between a man and a woman. Still, opponents highlight the sins of the past.

'They made the same mistakes when they said black people couldn't marry, and when black people sat in the back of the bus and we're not going to sit in the back of the bus and wait for them to make up their minds,' said Vaughan Davies.

'Two, four, six, eight, separate the church and state!'

Across town, in Downtown Los Angeles, angry protesters chanted as they rallied in defiance outside several southland churches including the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels. Demonstrators blast clergy for allegedly perpetuating misinformation about the constitutional amendment.

Back in Pasadena, members of All Saints say they will launch an educational campaign... hoping to convince others to believe, along with people such as 104 year old Lydia Wilkins.

'I think it's great.'

[Motown Marvel]

Guys. Change the N word and the F words in your posts. Don't bypass the sensors.


Change it before you get caught.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

sorry, i forgot that when you just say "the N word" it doesnt mean ******. :o

[Franklin Richards]

Don't forget if you quoted someone.


I'm changing my warning now. :D


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[spideyboy_1111]

were not giving up :D (great news clips)
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=6496925

[UltimateJustin]

Oh well, in the end it doesn't really matter. I guess we all are learning that in our own way.

[spideyboy_1111]

Oh well, in the end it doesn't really matter. I guess we all are learning that in our own way.

huh?

[UltimateJustin]

huh?
I've given up the fight for change. I've given up on myself.

[CaptainClown]

k....so...

[spideyboy_1111]

I've given up the fight for change. I've given up on myself.

your pretty pathetic then...

[UltimateJustin]

your pretty pathetic then...
It's time to grow up and stop dreaming about outerspace and rights and stuff. I need to keep my feet on the ground and shut up all the time. I don't care if gays get the right to marry anymore because I've seen the truth. The machine is too big. The political syndicate wants us all dead. Not even a million marching James Francos can change history, it's all a joke. This entire country is a lie.

[CaptainClown]

sounds like someone discovered the fun of sniffing magic markers.

[UltimateJustin]

sounds like someone discovered the fun of sniffing magic markers.
And the harsh scent of that marker hit me hard like a piece of the moon broke off and landed on my confused head. And that marker smelled like reality. And I was confused no more.

Gay Rights, Gay Wrongs, what's the difference? I literally think none.

[spideyboy_1111]

It's time to grow up and stop dreaming about outerspace and rights and stuff. I need to keep my feet on the ground and shut up all the time. I don't care if gays get the right to marry anymore because I've seen the truth. The machine is too big. The political syndicate wants us all dead. Not even a million marching James Francos can change history, it's all a joke. This entire country is a lie.

Wow... dude grow some balls and stand up for yourself. wtf is wrong with you. about half the country is in support of us and several members of the government are too. The only joke is people like you who are to mentally anguished and self loathing that they don't even think there rights are worth it.

[spideyboy_1111]

And the harsh scent of that marker hit me hard like a piece of the moon broke off and landed on my confused head. And that marker smelled like reality. And I was confused no more.

Gay Rights, Gay Wrongs, what's the difference? I literally think none.

dude stop sniffing stuff and clear your head. stop being so jaded

[Ocramed]

When they allow polygamy in this country, I'll accept homosexual marriages.

O.

[spideyboy_1111]

When they allow polygamy in this country, I'll accept homosexual marriages.

O.

it's funny how polygamy the mormons could accept, but not homosexuality... :o i don't care for the idea of polygamy, but don't denounce the idea... i think if its like higher then a group of 3 or 4 it gets very very very weird and probably damaging mentally on the wives. I think there's alot of psychological damage with polygamy personally. But for some reason i didn't find it odd that hugh heffner pretty much was a polygamist, he just wasn't married to the 3 women.

[spideyboy_1111]

ok so this was like my highlight of saturday night. This girl kicked so much ass with her chanting.... she parodied somewhere over the rainbow, as well as I would walk 500 miles

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=93116010354#/video/video.php?v=93116010354&ref=nf

soo friggin hilarious

[UltimateJustin]

when they allow polygamy in this country, i'll accept homosexual marriages.

O.
Oh, HERE WE GO... Polygamy is practically proven to be really weird.

[Schlosser85]

when they allow polygamy in this country, i'll accept homosexual marriages.



Because two consenting adults pledging their lives to each other makes more of a mockery of the institution of marriage than multiple people who can't make up their minds all getting married to each other?

And it's not up to you to accept it or not accept it. It has nothing to do with you.

[Anubis]

I don't see anything wrong with Polygamy. Most guys got a wife, a girlfriend, and a b***h on the side anyway. :)

It's only when they start marrying 13 and 14 year olds when it starts getting weird.

[tpayer]

I once heard that in the end, it ends up to who is hoggin the sheets and cut one in bed. Gay or straight the same thing ends up. There is no grey area. And I thought the days of taking away civil liberties were over? WTF.

[BlackLantern]

I still maintain a big part of this problem is that there are still a ton of people who simply don't give a **** about this issue

[spideyboy_1111]

I still maintain a big part of this problem is that there are still a ton of people who simply don't give a **** about this issue

most people who don't give a crap are fine with it.. they typically go along with the change, not stop it. So apparently alot of people do care sadly :(

[spideyboy_1111]

Drew Barrymore joins the fight!!
MgfPcGxeDaM

AND SHE was friggin with me and the small couple hundred group and i didnt even notice :(

[Nivek]

I still maintain a big part of this problem is that there are still a ton of people who simply don't give a **** about this issue


I would also like to add that for every 3 people that dont care, there is at one person who is bound and determined to think Gay Marriage will affect them in some life altering way and they will vocally dominate any discussion about it.

[cerealkiller182]

I still maintain a big part of this problem is that there are still a ton of people who simply don't give a **** about this issue

Thats how I got into the issue. Cause I didnt care and i didnt think it would effect me which is why I always said yes because it didnt matter to me either way so I might as well say yes. And the more i heard about opponents reasons why and the supporters reasons why, the supporters reasons why are so much more logical. Im surprised that people arnt more like that.

[The Lizard]

im sure 50% or more would have stormed the gates of the mormon temple leveled that gaudy eye sore of a cult if they deemed right. But we all know that that just makes us look like the bad guy.. so we remain peaceful

Question:

Since 70% of California's African-American voters voted "yes" on Prop 8, are the anti-Prop 8 activists planning on staging big protests in front of NAACP headquarters or any historically black colleges or churches?

[spideyboy_1111]

Question:

Since 70% of California's African-American voters voted "yes" on Prop 8, are the anti-Prop 8 activists planning on staging big protests in front of NAACP headquarters or any historically black colleges or churches?

actually the NAACP is with us. Were not attacking races, that's not what this is about. We have protested more then just the Mormon churches as well. I believe there were a few baptists and catholic churches being protested as well, that donated money to the yes campaign. We targeted the Mormon church cuz it was a ridiculously large contribution to the yes campaign. And for that you can easily protest. You can't go after and protest a black community because you have no idea who in that black community voted yes or no. So your point is moot.

[spideyboy_1111]

Thats how I got into the issue. Cause I didnt care and i didnt think it would effect me which is why I always said yes because it didnt matter to me either way so I might as well say yes. And the more i heard about opponents reasons why and the supporters reasons why, the supporters reasons why are so much more logical. Im surprised that people arnt more like that.

can you rephrase that... it could be cuz i haven't slept yet, but the yes and logical notions got me a bit confused due to "voting yes" means no to gay marriage and "voting no" means yes to gay marriage. And which side are you saying is more logical?

[cerealkiller182]

can you rephrase that... it could be cuz i haven't slept yet, but the yes and logical notions got me a bit confused due to "voting yes" means no to gay marriage and "voting no" means yes to gay marriage. And which side are you saying is more logical?

I meant i was for gay marriage. I was talking about gay marriage not prop 8. I dont even have prop 8 or similar prop.

[Ion Kenshin]

can you rephrase that... it could be cuz i haven't slept yet, but the yes and logical notions got me a bit confused due to "voting yes" means no to gay marriage and "voting no" means yes to gay marriage. And which side are you saying is more logical?
this is not to say that all people who voted for prop 8 did not do so willingly and i am not defending them but have we put into the account the confusion that that causes where yes means no and no means yes. i mean we had a proposition for something or other in NY and i have to read it like 4 times to make sure that i was gonna mark the correct answer. i mean i wonder how many people voted yes expecting it to mean yes to gay marriages and not the other way around

[The Lizard]

We targeted the Mormon church cuz it was a ridiculously large contribution to the yes campaign. And for that you can easily protest. You can't go after and protest a black community because you have no idea who in that black community voted yes or no. So your point is moot.

Actually, the "Mormon Church" organization itself did not donate money to the pro-Prop 8 campaign, it encouraged its individual members to do so, but whatever.

And while we're reviewing some numbers, the anti-Prop 8 movement received more contribution money (approx $38 million) than the pro-Prop 8 movement (about $36 million). Of the pro-Prop 8 money, about $3.6 million, or one-tenth, came from Utah contributions.
(source: CBS) (http://cbs5.com/local/proposition.8.spending.2.855582.html)

Population-wise, Mormons make up about 2% of the California population.

[spideyboy_1111]

I meant i was for gay marriage. I was talking about gay marriage not prop 8. I dont even have prop 8 or similar prop.

ahh ok i was just very confused lol, so you think our side makes more sense then?

[spideyboy_1111]

this is not to say that all people who voted for prop 8 did not do so willingly and i am not defending them but have we put into the account the confusion that that causes where yes means no and no means yes. i mean we had a proposition for something or other in NY and i have to read it like 4 times to make sure that i was gonna mark the correct answer. i mean i wonder how many people voted yes expecting it to mean yes to gay marriages and not the other way around

i felt as long as the person read the description they should understand, but yes i do believe there could easily be a confusion with that issue. on the ballet it said "yes" and "no" and the description said "this would make an amendment to the CA constitution which would define marriage as between a man and woman" so i felt it was pretty clear, but for those who don't take the time to read, then sure it would have been pretty confusing.

[spideyboy_1111]

Actually, the "Mormon Church" organization itself did not donate money to the pro-Prop 8 campaign, it encouraged its individual members to do so, but whatever.

And while we're reviewing some numbers, the anti-Prop 8 movement received more contribution money (approx $38 million) than the pro-Prop 8 movement (about $36 million). Of the pro-Prop 8 money, about $3.6 million, or one-tenth, came from Utah contributions.
(source: CBS) (http://cbs5.com/local/proposition.8.spending.2.855582.html)

Population-wise, Mormons make up about 2% of the California population.

Why does who spent more on what campaign really matter? all that money could have and should have went to something much more worth while. Feeding the homeless, building schools, donating to medical research. Instead it was spent on something that really shouldn't of been an issue.

Together as a whole the Mormon church as a whole (that includes members, not just the church itself) donated over half the money for prop 8. And last i heard they were still estimating the Yes campaign. KTLA reported weds night that the yes campaign spent $40-$70 million on the yes campaign.

[The Lizard]

Why does who spent more on what campaign really matter? all that money could have and should have went to something much more worth while. Feeding the homeless, building schools, donating to medical research. Instead it was spent on something that really shouldn't of been an issue.

I agree, but I'm making a point here. I'll get to it in a second...

Together as a whole the Mormon church as a whole (that includes members, not just the church itself) donated over half the money for prop 8. And last i heard they were still estimating the Yes campaign. KTLA reported weds night that the yes campaign spent $40-$70 million on the yes campaign.

To clarify your data, Utah donated roughly half of the out-of-state money in support of Prop 8, not half of the total amount. Thus about 10% of the total financial support of roughly $40 million came from Utah, not half.

So why am I bringing this info up?

This newly aggressive pro-gay marriage movement needs to widen the focus of the message it's sending. The Mormon Church is an easy target to rail and protest against, but the Mormons aren't really the problem here beyond their usual predictable stance on traditional marriage. As 2% of the CA population, their actual voting power is not that much.

Finances and contributions aren't the problem either, since the anti-8 campaign raised more money than the pro-8 campaign.

The real problem is that total 52% of Californians who voted "yes". The problem is the 70% of black voters who voted "yes". I was being sarcastic about protesting the NAACP of course, but that "racial profiling" aspect of the Prop 8 results is interesting and disturbing.

The message needs to be carried further than just punishing the Mormons, which is admittedly too easy and does nothing anyway since Mormons thrive on the idea that they're persecuted anyway.

[BlackLantern]

...yea...what Lizard said....just focusing on one group isn't going to help....You might have to get ugly and start protesting the black and latino communities...the numbers are simply too obvious not too

[ShadowBoxing]

...yea...what Lizard said....just focusing on one group isn't going to help....You might have to get ugly and start protesting the black and latino communities...the numbers are simply too obvious not too...And I don't think it's just Jesus who is influencing their views, seriously. The rap community has a huge axe to grind with the homosexual community, and somehow I don't think Ludacris and his "bit*hes" end their bumping and grinding sessions with a good ole' trip to the local youth group meeting.

[StorminNorman]

Drew Barrymore joins the fight!!
MgfPcGxeDaM

AND SHE was friggin with me and the small couple hundred group and i didnt even notice :(

If Drew Barrymore joins the fight I may have to question my own stance.

I don't want to be associated with her on any level. :csad:

[The Lizard]

...yea...what Lizard said....just focusing on one group isn't going to help....You might have to get ugly and start protesting the black and latino communities...the numbers are simply too obvious not too

Well, maybe not protest minority communities per se, but mobilize members of those communities to organize rallies on their own.

There's no way the current pro-Gay marriage movement is going to actually protest in African-American communities or in front of black churches, because that's a public-relations nightmare. Particularly when the vast majority of the protesters are not black.

[Anubis]

Well, you gotta do what you gotta do. Nobody said it was gonna be easy. Going to have to try and point out the hypocrisy of it all, and with black people, man. I can tell you as a black person, that's gonna be quite a mine field.

[Schlosser85]

just focusing on one group isn't going to help....You might have to get ugly and start protesting the black and latino communities...the numbers are simply too obvious not too

That has to be about the worst, most counterproductive idea I've ever heard of. Respond to bigotry with bigotry in kind? What's next? Gays harassing blacks, calling them their equivalent of the slurs we're so used to being on the receiving end of, as has already happened a couple times in these protests? Yea, that will help get people to accept us. :whatever:

You don't know which blacks and latinos voted yes on Proposition 8 and which voted no. For that matter, you don't know which blacks and latinos are gay and which ones are straight.

All I can say is, I'm glad I'm not a black gay man, because it sounds like I'd be getting it from both sides. A majority of your own culture is down on you, and some fellow gays who should all be united together against this assume you're one of the homophobes because you're black.

Well, maybe not protest minority communities per se, but mobilize members of those communities to organize rallies on their own.


This is a good idea.

[BlackLantern]

...And I don't think it's just Jesus who is influencing their views, seriously. The rap community has a huge axe to grind with the homosexual community, and somehow I don't think Ludacris and his "bit*hes" end their bumping and grinding sessions with a good ole' trip to the local youth group meeting.

Well...the typical view of the black man is a tough, masculine type....not someone who likes the ****

[ShadowBoxing]

Well...the typical view of the black man is a tough, masculine type....not someone who likes the ****
...which is ironic considering that the bling and fashion of the rap community often comes from the homosexual community.

[Bathead]

From what I've been led to understand, both the black and Latino communities have a long-standing problem with homosexuality. It's what has led to the "being on the down-low" problem that is causing a lot of problems for the black community. The latinos have long been concerned with the concept of Machismo, with a rather narrow concept of what it means to be a man. Both of these attitudes can be again traced back to the church, which has a heavy influence on both groups.

[BlackLantern]

From what I've been led to understand, both the black and Latino communities have a long-standing problem with homosexuality. It's what has led to the "being on the down-low" problem that is causing a lot of problems for the black community. The latinos have long been concerned with the concept of Machismo, with a rather narrow concept of what it means to be a man. Both of these attitudes can be again traced back to the church, which has a heavy influence on both groups.

Pretty much dead on....

[The Lizard]

The word "bigotry" is of course an often used button-pushing tool in today's society, but this issue raises three different types of bigotry.

1. Racial bigotry

2. Sexual orientation bigotry

3. Anti-Religious bigotry

People seem to have drastically differing opinions on the relative severity of these types of bigotry. Thus you have certain members of the African-American community who don't agree that the Gay Rights movement and Civil Rights movement are similar. Thus you have members of the Gay Rights community who have no problem with "hating on the haters", as long as the haters in question are religious types. Thus you have religious folk crying that their Freedom of Religion rights are being attacked, while trying to modify the Constitution to limit the rights of others.

[Anubis]

Hypocrisy, ain't it grand?

[Ion Kenshin]

That has to be about the worst, most counterproductive idea I've ever heard of. Respond to bigotry with bigotry in kind? What's next? Gays harassing blacks, calling them their equivalent of the slurs we're so used to being on the receiving end of, as has already happened a couple times in these protests? Yea, that will help get people to accept us. :whatever:

You don't know which blacks and latinos voted yes on Proposition 8 and which voted no. For that matter, you don't know which blacks and latinos are gay and which ones are straight.

All I can say is, I'm glad I'm not a black gay man, because it sounds like I'd be getting it from both sides. A majority of your own culture is down on you, and some fellow gays who should all be united together against this assume you're one of the homophobes because you're black.



This is a good idea.
That would be me right here
...which is ironic considering that the bling and fashion of the rap community often comes from the homosexual community.
which i always find amusing....most fashion and highly popular music comes from they gay community or with the gay stamp of approval :D . Hell look at a large majority of designers they are almost all gay. And musically at least in the pop scene the gays can make or break or song. Look at some of the major popular pop artists. Madonna, Cher, J-Lo, The Pussycat Dolls etc. while they may or may not be good artists or singers is besides the point, they have huge gay followings.

[UltimateJustin]

Many latinos are catholic and the chruch says don't use birth control, so they don't, and they spill babies down the halls when you walk in areas with a high population of hispanics. But they bang like morons too, out of wedlock, so they really don't care about their religion or following its beliefs. So I don't know why they would care about gay rights other than it's not the image of manliness they agree with. Some people are so prejudice!

[Bathead]

Careful Justin, that is a generalisation that can be percieved as racist.

[Anita18]

Many latinos are catholic and the chruch says don't use birth control, so they don't, and they spill babies down the halls when you walk in areas with a high population of hispanics. But they bang like morons too, out of wedlock, so they really don't care about their religion or following its beliefs.
There are some ways of following your religion while still banging like morons. One of my former housemates is Hispanic and he was telling how many of his friends in HS were already married with kids....at 21. :oldrazz:

I don't think it's necessarily a religious thing, but a cultural thing. You see how many of your classmates get married early then pop out kids, then you accept it as normal.

[BlackLantern]

There are some ways of following your religion while still banging like morons. One of my former housemates is Hispanic and he was telling how many of his friends in HS were already married with kids....at 21. :oldrazz:

I don't think it's necessarily a religious thing, but a cultural thing. You see how many of your classmates get married early then pop out kids, then you accept it as normal.

I never did...and im 1/2 black 1/2 hispanic....I know at least 3 or 4 girls from HS who were pregnant less than a year after graduation....and I was like "WTF??"

[Anita18]

I never did...and im 1/2 black 1/2 hispanic....I know at least 3 or 4 girls from HS who were pregnant less than a year after graduation....and I was like "WTF??"
That's cause you're a maverick like my old housemate. :cwink:

[BlackLantern]

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/09/Calif_gov_We_will_maybe_undo_Prop_8/UPI-22871226279859/

I found this....

[The Senator]

Many latinos are catholic and the chruch says don't use birth control, so they don't, and they spill babies down the halls when you walk in areas with a high population of hispanics. But they bang like morons too, out of wedlock, so they really don't care about their religion or following its beliefs. So I don't know why they would care about gay rights other than it's not the image of manliness they agree with. Some people are so prejudice!

Have you met my friend Kettle?

[CaptainClown]

Have you met my friend Kettle?
I like how his whole post was so hypocritical that it could almost collapse upon itself.

[UltimateJustin]

I like how his whole post was so hypocritical that it could almost collapse upon itself.
Hey, stop being a haterosexual to me.

[CaptainClown]

Hey, stop being a haterosexual to me.
us hateros have rights too.

[The Senator]

Hey, stop being a haterosexual to me.

Soon enough he'll be spilling babies all over the hallways and banging like a moron, so just be patient. :dry:

[The Battousai]

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/09/Calif_gov_We_will_maybe_undo_Prop_8/UPI-22871226279859/

I found this....

:applaud

[spideyboy_1111]

Well, maybe not protest minority communities per se, but mobilize members of those communities to organize rallies on their own.

There's no way the current pro-Gay marriage movement is going to actually protest in African-American communities or in front of black churches, because that's a public-relations nightmare. Particularly when the vast majority of the protesters are not black.

correct, it really is a sticky situation, and i honestly don't have the answer for it.

[spideyboy_1111]

From what I've been led to understand, both the black and Latino communities have a long-standing problem with homosexuality. It's what has led to the "being on the down-low" problem that is causing a lot of problems for the black community. The latinos have long been concerned with the concept of Machismo, with a rather narrow concept of what it means to be a man. Both of these attitudes can be again traced back to the church, which has a heavy influence on both groups.

see the thing i notice is that there is one huge load (no pun intended) of latino gay men... so i've never truly understood that side of the situation. It almost seems like 1 out of 3 latinos are gay... (no joke), least here anyway. But the black community is much more on the DL and they have a hard time with anyone in there group not acting "black enough" let alone viewing there stance on homosexuality.

[spideyboy_1111]

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/09/Calif_gov_We_will_maybe_undo_Prop_8/UPI-22871226279859/

I found this....

yeah i read that last night..


The important thing to me right now, is that this movement has alot of momentum... and i don't want it to stop at just california. Saturday we have a nation wide rally. And i truly believe that the rest of the nation needs equal rights. I really hope californians don't stop and keep fighting for everyone else if prop 8 becomes null in void.

[CaptainClown]

hey spideyboy are you gay? I only ask because I am wondering if that's your reason for being so passionate about this. If not then I admire your dedication.

[danoyse]

Wow, Olbermann is doing a great commentary on this right now. :up:

[Gilpesh]

Wow, Olbermann is doing a great commentary on this right now. :up:

How he can still go through that comment without crying is mind-boggling.

[cyborg ninja 14]

I believe in marriage between a man and a woman but I'm not going to tell gay people not to get married. The only thing I don't really get is that gay marriage sort of defeats the very purpose of marriage which is: have kids, raise them, kick them out, depend on them later in life.

[Addendum]

At first I thought he just had a runny nose, since this is the cold season.

Then I realized, damn he's crying

[Addendum]

I believe in marriage between a man and a woman but I'm not going to tell gay people not to get married. The only thing I don't really get is that gay marriage sort of defeats the very purpose of marriage which is: have kids, raise them, kick them out, depend on them later in life.

But you don't have to be married to have kids and raise them. Gene Simmons is an example of that

[Gilpesh]

I believe in marriage between a man and a woman but I'm not going to tell gay people not to get married. The only thing I don't really get is that gay marriage sort of defeats the very purpose of marriage which is: have kids, raise them, kick them out, depend on them later in life.

:whatever:

Seriously?


You should have stopped after sentence number one.

[spideyboy_1111]

I believe in marriage between a man and a woman but I'm not going to tell gay people not to get married. The only thing I don't really get is that gay marriage sort of defeats the very purpose of marriage which is: have kids, raise them, kick them out, depend on them later in life.

? you know we can still do that right? :huh:

[spideyboy_1111]

At first I thought he just had a runny nose, since this is the cold season.

Then I realized, damn he's crying

really? i hope this is online, id like to see it

[Gilpesh]

cVUecPhQPqY

[Motown Marvel]

I believe in marriage between a man and a woman but I'm not going to tell gay people not to get married. The only thing I don't really get is that gay marriage sort of defeats the very purpose of marriage which is: have kids, raise them, kick them out, depend on them later in life.

so couples who are incapable of having kids, their marriages are pointless? or once a couple has had their kids, raised them, and kicked them out, their marriages are then pointless too?

[cerealkiller182]

The only thing I don't really get is that gay marriage sort of defeats the very purpose of marriage which is: have kids, raise them, kick them out, depend on them later in life.

So women who are barren and men who shoot blanks shouldnt get married?

[Schlosser85]

Wow....Olbermann's Special Comment on Proposition 8 was awesome.

[Bathead]

I found his comments to be in sync with my feelings exactly, but he was much more eloquent about it than I could ever be. Quite frankly, I don't understand all the hate I see directed at this guy.

[BlackLantern]

Olbermann is a liberal bully, no better than O'Reilly...I saw his comments tonight and it was a master stroke on Olbermanns part.....

[spideyboy_1111]

I found his comments to be in sync with my feelings exactly, but he was much more eloquent about it than I could ever be. Quite frankly, I don't understand all the hate I see directed at this guy.

me either, he gave a great speech about it. People just need to stop being so clouded and open there mind and realize that what there doing is exactly like the hate during the civil rights movement in the 60's oppression is never the answer.

[cyborg ninja 14]

Listen all of you, if gays want to marry, let them. There's always going to be that fundamental difference between a man and a woman so I obviously don't see it as equal for obvious reasons. And I was clearly taken too literally with my post.

[CaptainClown]

Olbermann is a liberal bully, no better than O'Reilly...I saw his comments tonight and it was a master stroke on Olbermanns part.....
definitly. He is the polar opposite to O'Reilly. Except Olbermann seems nicer.

[ShadowBoxing]

I find Olbermann to be pretentious and arrogant most of the time. I also find most of his 'moral indignity' to be phoned in, even if he does have a point.

[bunk]

Olbermann is waaaaay more self aware than O'Reilly is. He also tends to use facts to back up his opinions.

[spideyboy_1111]

cVUecPhQPqY

wow, that was actually pretty good and beautifully done.

[Gilpesh]

Olbermann is waaaaay more self aware than O'Reilly is. He also tends to use facts to back up his opinions.

But sometimes... facts don't change jackassness in the delivery.

[Addendum]

I like jackasses with facts

[CaptainClown]

Olbermann is waaaaay more self aware than O'Reilly is. He also tends to use facts to back up his opinions.
That is why I like him. He makes fun of himself and his show even.

[cerealkiller182]

cVUecPhQPqY

I love that he tore down the "redefining marriage" excuse.

[CaptainClown]

I think the only problem with Keith's message is that most people who watch his show probably voted against 8. He is preaching to the chorus.

[redfirebird2008]

I think the only problem with Keith's message is that most people who watch his show probably voted against 8. He is preaching to the chorus.

Not necessarily. 70% of black voters voted against it. 95% of black voters went for Obama. Now, during this election cycle where the rest of the mainstream media has attacked him as a Muslim terrorist, socialist, Marxist, communist, etc. (including CNN...screw you Lou Dobbs), you don't think it's likely that many of his black supporters would watch Olbermann?

[CaptainClown]

Not necessarily. 70% of black voters voted against it. 95% of black voters went for Obama. Now, during this election cycle where the rest of the mainstream media has attacked him as a Muslim terrorist, socialist, Marxist, communist, etc. (including CNN...screw you Lou Dobbs), you don't think it's likely that many of his black supporters would watch Olbermann?
I actually don't think they watch Olbermann. The whole demographic I see for Olberman are young people in college. The more liberal it is, the more I feel it leans towards college demographics and not a race.

[Anita18]

Wow, Olbermann is doing a great commentary on this right now. :up:

At first I thought he just had a runny nose, since this is the cold season.

Then I realized, damn he's crying
It was beautiful, I got close to :waa: too.

But you don't have to be married to have kids and raise them. Gene Simmons is an example of that
Johnny Depp and Vanessa Paradis, along with Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn. And of course, let's not forget Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie.

I find Olbermann to be pretentious and arrogant most of the time. I also find most of his 'moral indignity' to be phoned in, even if he does have a point.
Olbermann is pretentious and arrogant, but at least he comes off nicer and more jokingly than Bill O'Reilly, who seems genuinely ready to blow a gasket every 5 minutes.

[amazingfantasy15]

I believe in marriage between a man and a woman but I'm not going to tell gay people not to get married. The only thing I don't really get is that gay marriage sort of defeats the very purpose of marriage which is: have kids, raise them, kick them out, depend on them later in life.

My dad got remarried after my mom passed away a few years ago. My dad and now step-mom were both in their fifties, got married with absolutely no intention of having kids together, does this mean their marriage is pointless? I mean they're defeating the very purpose of marriage, except for the loving each other for the rest of the lives, in richer and poorer, sickness and heath, good time and bad times, etc, etc....

[Charlie No-One]

I fail to see how having kids is the purpose of marriage. You can do that outside of marriage too.

[Franklin Richards]

Actually it goes against the idea of having kids. One woman and one man is not the best way to propagate the species.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[amazingfantasy15]

I fail to see how having kids is the purpose of marriage. You can do that outside of marriage too.

Because it helps homophobes arguments against gay marriage.

[BlackLantern]

Out of the 6 women I know that have gotten pregnant in the past 2 years, 2 were married

[Hotwire]

I have seen a few arguements against gay marriage. However, none of these had their basis outside that person's own religion or beliefs. Can anyone make a sound arguement against gay marriage, while not only explaining why it's a bad idea, but also keeping your own religion and beliefs out of the argument?

[CaptainClown]

I have seen a few arguements against gay marriage. However, none of these had their basis outside that person's own religion or beliefs. Can anyone make a sound arguement against gay marriage, while not only explaining why it's a bad idea, but also keeping your own religion and beliefs out of the argument?For a company it would be much more expensive for companies with benefits to cover these new found spouses. By allowing gay marriage companies will have an increase in people to cover.

That is the only one I could think of.

[Hotwire]

Noticed a few Olberman fans here. Thought you'd enjoy this.
http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/countdown-with-keith-olbermann/805561/
Love him or hate him, This is the funniest thing I've ever seen Ben Affleck do.

[Schlosser85]

^ I thought that was hysterical.

[Hotwire]

For a company it would be much more expensive for companies with benefits to cover these new found spouses. By allowing gay marriage companies will have an increase in people to cover.

That is the only one I could think of.
With that logic, we should outlaw marriage all together, to keep them from having to pay out these benefits. By allowing marriage they are increasing their benefits cost, regardless of the genders of the employee.

[Paradoxium]

With that logic, we should outlaw marriage all together, to keep them from having to pay out these benefits. By allowing marriage they are increasing their benefits cost, regardless of the genders of the employee.
I'm down with that.

[CaptainClown]

Noticed a few Olberman fans here. Thought you'd enjoy this.
http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/countdown-with-keith-olbermann/805561/
Love him or hate him, This is the funniest thing I've ever seen Ben Affleck do.
amazing hahah

[CaptainClown]

With that logic, we should outlaw marriage all together, to keep them from having to pay out these benefits. By allowing marriage they are increasing their benefits cost, regardless of the genders of the employee.
more or less

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I dunno.

Olbermann seems slightly more slapstick than most. His humor is pretty clear, and he clearly enjoys going at it that way too. I don't really see the arrogance as others do.

He makes excellent points though, either way. His special comment on Prop 8 was fantastic and emotional. Good stuff.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

But sometimes... facts don't change jackassness in the delivery.

Yes they do.

It makes them less jackeassy.

Whereas making things up and still being a jackass...makes that person MORE jackassy.

Olbermann is waaaaay more self aware than O'Reilly is. He also tends to use facts to back up his opinions.

He is. He's funnier too.

His jabs at O'Reily are usually funny pokes at the guy who pretends to act like Olbermann doesn't even exist.

I've never seen Olbermann shout people down, or cut people's mics off...so he get good karma points for that.

[BlackLantern]

There are some people on this planet who should have their mic cut....I'm not an O'Reilly fan, but a lot of these news shows are entirely too polite to people, even people that are visibly retarded

[Addendum]

O'Reilly cut off the mike of a retired colonel who disagreed with O'Reilly back when some British soldiers were being held by Iran.

He cut it off after she told him she has 25 years of service in the military, specifically in the JAG corps, and she asked him if he served or practiced law

[BlackLantern]

I don't watch O'Reilly at all....but I'm guessing they were both being DBags of the highest order...I served in the military and there is nothing more pompous or aggravating than a lifer...

[Addendum]

yDpIAqfWR2g

I got the question wrong. She asked "I served for 29 years. How many did you serve?"

And it's only pompous or aggravating when one's argument doesn't hold muster

[BlackLantern]

Fair enough....I don't watch him at all......They should put him and Olbermann in a room together with a switchblade and lock the door

[BlackLantern]

edit double post

[Doomed_hero]

o'reily once tried to tell John McCain he didnt understand what it was like in a prison camp

[ChrisBaleBatman]

There are some people on this planet who should have their mic cut....I'm not an O'Reilly fan, but a lot of these news shows are entirely too polite to people, even people that are visibly retarded


Like Sarah Palin. If they'd had cut her mic during ANY of her interviews it would have done her wonders.

But...it's rude. And the videos I've seen of the people getting they're mics cut were uncalled for and unfair simply because they disagreed.

When you have to cut more than a few mics every now and again, the problem may not be with the guests...but with the host. Either he/she has no control of they're own show, either they're picking the wrong guests or not vetting them well enough, or the host is a dick. Could be either or all...I dunno.


I don't watch O'Reilly at all....but I'm guessing they were both being DBags of the highest order...I served in the military and there is nothing more pompous or aggravating than a lifer...


The only Dbag was O'Reily.

I mean, notice the change in her title at the bottom end of the screen.

Calling people unamerican because they disagree with him is pretty common from the vids I've seen.

To say Olbermann is a mirror of O'Reily is pretty wrong. O'Reily does things in a whole different way I think. The way he hosts is completely different.

And I'm not being shot **** while watching Olbermann either. I'm not being sold books or other merchandise.

[Heretic]

I support states rights, and believe that the people should be able to decide on these issues.

However, speaking as a Conservative...I see no difference between the love of two gay men and the love of a man and a woman. Its kind of silly for a state to vote to make gay marriage illegal, but i respect the decision of the people and feel it should be upholded. Liberals should work to change hearts and minds, not force their will upon the people through court action.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Fair enough....I don't watch him at all......They should put him and Olbermann in a room together with a switchblade and lock the door


I'd pay money to see that.

I'm afraid it'd be a letdown though, with Olbermann doing all the stabbing while O'Reily's trying to pretend that he's not in the room with him.


o'reily once tried to tell John McCain he didnt understand what it was like in a prison camp


No way.....

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I support states rights, and believe that the people should be able to decide on these issues.

However, speaking as a Conservative...I see no difference between the love of two gay men and the love of a man and a woman. Its kind of silly for a state to vote to make gay marriage illegal, but i respect the decision of the people and feel it should be upholded. Liberals should work to change hearts and minds, not force their will upon the people through court action.


Some changes need to be made with people kicking and screaming.

Otherwise, we'd still be stuck in the mud by people who thought blacks shouldn't get the right to vote or the women should be able to vote or work....changes like that had to be forced down more than a few peoples throats when they were done.

[BlackLantern]

I'd pay money to see that.

I'm afraid it'd be a letdown though, with Olbermann doing all the stabbing while O'Reily's trying to pretend that he's not in the room with him.

from someone who doesn't watch either show....why should O'Reilly even acknowledge Olbermann, from what I've heard Keith uses every opportunity to take a shot at Bill....so why should Bill respond in kind? He probably thinks Olbermann would feel validated or something....I kind of see it as WWE / TNA.....TNA constantly takes shots at WWE, and the WWE basically pretends they don't exist....

[The Senator]

I support states rights, and believe that the people should be able to decide on these issues.

I do not believe that the majority should be able to vote on rights for minorities.

[ShadowBoxing]

I do not believe that the majority should be able to vote on rights for minorities.
It worked well for those black people! Where my brothers at?...anyone...anyone? No....nevermind then:csad:

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Hey....he just likes to pretend that Olbermann doesn't exist. He ignores Olbermann.

I find that funny. I really do.

I thought O'Reily accusing the ratings system of being on the take because his viewer ratings went down and lost out to Olbermann....was beyond petty. I mean, isn't that some wonderous arrogance?

That my ratings are down and so that must mean that corruption is the reason why?

Honestly?

I think that Olbermann started out hitting O'Reily hard because he saw the things most of us saw...things like cutting off an ex-military guest and then calling her unamerican and changing her title during the broadcast...stuff like that, that O'Reily does alot of...I honestly think that Olbermann just called him out on these things because no one else seems to.

Now? He just like to poke him for laughs really. Usually he just mentions O'Reily in funny stuff and not really seriousness.

I think the reason O'Reily doesn't respond is because he's got nothing to respond with.

Clearly both men are on opposite ends of arguements...even the Prop 8. I'm pretty sure O'Reily is totally against gay marriage.

[The Senator]

It worked well for those black people! Where my brothers at?...anyone...anyone? No....nevermind then:csad:

Yeah, I mean, it only took 180 years or so... but hey, at least the majority eventually came around...

[Heretic]

Should the minority be allowed to make laws for the majority???

Youre wanting a single judge to be able to over rule the will of millions of people.

Sure, weve had some hiccups. The mere fact that blacks were EVER considered less than equal is wrong...but still...I feel uncomfortable with a judge altering the decision of the people. Hopefully other states will legalize gay marriage and eventually all states will come around. It really is kind of ridiculous for gays to not have the same marriage rights as straight people.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I think yes, in some cases the minority SHOULD be allowed to decide for the majority...especially when the majority is wrong.

And this decison won't affect the majority. How will it affect the majority?

It'll affect the people who want to marry and can't.

[Charlie No-One]

Should the minority be allowed to make laws for the majority???

Youre wanting a single judge to be able to over rule the will of millions of people.

Sure, weve had some hiccups. The mere fact that blacks were EVER considered less than equal is wrong...but still...I feel uncomfortable with a judge altering the decision of the people. Hopefully other states will legalize gay marriage and eventually all states will come around. It really is kind of ridiculous for gays to not have the same marriage rights as straight people.

Yes, why should a majority vote on a minority issue?

[Heretic]

I think yes, in some cases the minority SHOULD be allowed to decide for the majority...especially when the majority is wrong.

And this decison won't affect the majority. How will it affect the majority?

It'll affect the people who want to marry and can't.

So basically, for every voting issue on earth, we should consult YOU to see what is right and what is wrong??? These are opinions...and you and I both agree that gay marriage should be legal. However, others are entitled to their opinions...and the country apparently is not ready to accept gay marriage.

You state that you believe that the minority should be able to make laws that affect the majority. What specific areas would that be? can you pleas tell me what laws you believe should be passed to restrict the rights of white people that everyone else readily shares?? After all, that is your stated opinion.

[BlackLantern]

This is where we get into 'What does will of the people' really mean? Should we be allowed to vote on some things and not others?

[Heretic]

Yes, why should a majority vote on a minority issue?

Most people dont have sex with children. The members of the National man/Boy Love Association are clearly a minority. Your belief...let me get this straight...is that people who do not rape children should not be allowed to vote on whether or not raping children is legalized???

I am not attempting to compare gays to child molesters...but you simply said "minorities" and minorities can mean many things. Therefore, you should let EVERYONE vote on ALL issues.

[cerealkiller182]

Yes, why should a majority vote on a minority issue?

Before Prop 8, i thought the majority vote would help thinking that there seemed to be so much opposition only because they were more vocal. I truly thought the pro- outweighed anti- but obviously i was wrong.

[Charlie No-One]

Most people dont have sex with children. The members of the National man/Boy Love Association are clearly a minority. Your belief...let me get this straight...is that people who do not rape children should not be allowed to vote on whether or not raping children is legalized???

I am not attempting to compare gays to child molesters...but you simply said "minorities" and minorities can mean many things. Therefore, you should let EVERYONE vote on ALL issues.

Yes but we are talking about something that isn't a crime here. Being homosexual is not a crime where pedophilia is.

[Heretic]

Yes but we are talking about something that isn't a crime here. Being homosexual is not a crime where pedophilia is.

I believe that I am the true God of the universe. I believe that all Americans should pay a hefty tax that goes to line my holy pockets.

According to a recent survey i just did of my house, i am the only person on earth who believes that I am god...and therefore, as a minority, I should be the only person allowe to vote on this issue.

Pay up people! Your god is here!

[Heretic]

Yes but we are talking about something that isn't a crime here. Being homosexual is not a crime where pedophilia is.

Child rape is only a crime because the majority deem it to be so.

yes, you get two responses from one post. You should consider yourself special in the eyes of your God.

[The Senator]

Most people dont have sex with children. The members of the National man/Boy Love Association are clearly a minority. Your belief...let me get this straight...is that people who do not rape children should not be allowed to vote on whether or not raping children is legalized???

I am not attempting to compare gays to child molesters...but you simply said "minorities" and minorities can mean many things. Therefore, you should let EVERYONE vote on ALL issues.

Sigh.

There are legal protections in place in this country which FORBID people from having sex with minors, as determined by the COURTS and legal experts. Gay marriage is banned in several states because the general public decided that they weren't worthy of marriage rights, or non-discrimination laws, or the right to raise a family. Every state in which the gay marriage issue has gone to the courts has resulted in an overturning of such amendments... even in IOWA, of all places, this occurred (though the ruling was stayed until 2009)...

Homosexuals, meanwhile, can only be accused of loving a member of the same sex. People vote against their rights due to BIGOTRY. Much like people voted against giving black Americans rights because they looked different-- those votes were the result of BIGOTRY. That is why you do not let the majority decide rights for the minority, especially when those rights would not violate ANY pre-existing laws as determined by lawyers and the courts.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Making an opinion law is different though.

It's one thing to disagree.

But when that disagreement is causing pain and heartache and is actually taking away rights of others, there's a problem. It shouldn't be up for vote, because it won't affect MOST of the people voting.

The problem I have with this is that people are being treated unfairly. If this was about people needing to be okay with it, or understanding...fine. But it's wrong to hold them back while the rest of the country is trying to catch up.

Btw...when I said Minority voting for the Majority....I didn't know you meant literally White people v. everyone else.

Because, far as I know...the minorities are what got the ban across. Something like 70% of Blacks voted for the ban and something like 59% of Hispanics voted for the ban.

I actually think most white people are more okay with gay marriage than minorities are. I know firsthand that the hispanic community has ALOT of catching up to do with the world.

I imagine that in this case, the minority would be those for gay marriage (doesn't have to be gay people either, mind you...but people like you and me who "approve") and the majority would be those who are against gay marriage.

This country is way too diverse for everything in this country to be drawn down the line with white people at the opposite ends all the time.

[Heretic]

Sigh.

There are legal protections in place in this country which FORBID people from having sex with minors, as determined by the COURTS and legal experts. Gay marriage is banned in several states because the general public decided that they weren't worthy of marriage rights, or non-discrimination laws, or the right to raise a family. Every state in which the gay marriage issue has gone to the courts has resulted in an overturning of such amendments... even in IOWA, of all places, this occurred (though the ruling was stayed until 2009)...

Homosexuals, meanwhile, can only be accused of loving a member of the same sex. People vote against their rights due to BIGOTRY. Much like people voted against giving black Americans rights because they looked different-- those votes were the result of BIGOTRY. That is why you do not let the majority decide rights for the minority, especially when those rights would not violate ANY pre-existing laws as determined by lawyers and the courts.

I believe that your internet free speech has gotten out fo control...and as a minority, I am the sole person who can vote to finally forbid you from speaking your mind on the internet! OBEY YOUR GOD!

[The Senator]

I believe that I am the true God of the universe. I believe that all Americans should pay a hefty tax that goes to line my holy pockets.

According to a recent survey i just did of my house, i am the only person on earth who believes that I am god...and therefore, as a minority, I should be the only person allowe to vote on this issue.

Pay up people! Your god is here!

...and this is why conservatives are no longer taken seriously in this country, because all they can do is mock issues and minority causes...

[CaptainClown]

...and this is why conservatives are no longer taken seriously in this country, because all they can do is mock issues and minority causes...
Ya, like taking the extremes of issues they don't agree with. All issues have to be treated separately and with personal care rather then creating a system for all issues. Some groups need help, others are just insane. People need to actually listen to all the issues rather then creating a system to filter it all out.

[Heretic]

...and this is why conservatives are no longer taken seriously in this country, because all they can do is mock issues and minority causes...

Im not mocking anything. The claim here is that minorities should have the right to decide on issues that affect and restrict the majority.

Note that i specifically worded it that way. The belief here is that the majority should NOT be able to have any say whatsoever in their own futures and that the minorities should be able to decide for them.

Higher taxes?? lets not allow rich people to vote on it!!!


Only welfare recipients should be allowed to vote on whetheer or not welfare is cut or expanded!

It is ridiculous and should be mocked.

okay, so i am mocking it.

[The Senator]

Im not mocking anything. The claim here is that minorities should have the right to decide on issues that affect and restrict the majority.

Note that i specifically worded it that way. The belief here is that the majority should NOT be able to have any say whatsoever in their own futures and that the minorities should be able to decide for them.

Higher taxes?? lets not allow rich people to vote on it!!!


Only welfare recipients should be allowed to vote on whetheer or not welfare is cut or expanded!

It is ridiculous and should be mocked;

Actually, my opinion is that issues pertaining to civil rights should be left to the legal system to decide, and not to the general public. Your hyperbole is not only insulting, but wholeheartedly ignorant.

[Charlie No-One]

I believe that I am the true God of the universe. I believe that all Americans should pay a hefty tax that goes to line my holy pockets.

According to a recent survey i just did of my house, i am the only person on earth who believes that I am god...and therefore, as a minority, I should be the only person allowe to vote on this issue.

Pay up people! Your god is here!

I am not trying to say the minorities should get what they want just because they are minorities. I am trying to say exactly what ChrisBale just did:

Making an opinion law is different though.

It's one thing to disagree.

But when that disagreement is causing pain and heartache and is actually taking away rights of others, there's a problem. It shouldn't be up for vote, because it won't affect MOST of the people voting.

The problem I have with this is that people are being treated unfairly. If this was about people needing to be okay with it, or understanding...fine. But it's wrong to hold them back while the rest of the country is trying to catch up.

Btw...when I said Minority voting for the Majority....I didn't know you meant literally White people v. everyone else.

Because, far as I know...the minorities are what got the ban across. Something like 70% of Blacks voted for the ban and something like 59% of Hispanics voted for the ban.

I actually think most white people are more okay with gay marriage than minorities are. I know firsthand that the hispanic community has ALOT of catching up to do with the world.

I imagine that in this case, the minority would be those for gay marriage (doesn't have to be gay people either, mind you...but people like you and me who "approve") and the majority would be those who are against gay marriage.

This country is way too diverse for everything in this country to be drawn down the line with white people at the opposite ends all the time.

Let's not also forget that banning gay marriage is unconstitutional. Freedom of religion gives me the right to not affiliate with any religion. It also means that the government can't affiliate with one religion and make their religious values the law. So besides going against religious beliefs, what is the harm of gay marriage? There is no harm.

Im not mocking anything. The claim here is that minorities should have the right to decide on issues that affect and restrict the majority.

Note that i specifically worded it that way. The belief here is that the majority should NOT be able to have any say whatsoever in their own futures and that the minorities should be able to decide for them.

Higher taxes?? lets not allow rich people to vote on it!!!


Only welfare recipients should be allowed to vote on whetheer or not welfare is cut or expanded!

It is ridiculous and should be mocked.

okay, so i am mocking it.

I don't see where this is being stated at all. Gay marriage has no impact on the futures of heterosexuals, which would be the majority. No one is saying that minorities should decide on majority subjects.

[rdh007]

Actually, my opinion is that issues pertaining to civil rights should be left to the legal system to decide, and not to the general public. Your hyperbole is not only insulting, but wholeheartedly ignorant.

I'm going to guess that you believe that the legal system will prove to be ahead of the general public where it regards this specific issue. Correct? Maybe not, but I can't believe that civil unions will be illegal for the remainder of my lifetime (another forty years statistically)

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Most people dont have sex with children. The members of the National man/Boy Love Association are clearly a minority. Your belief...let me get this straight...is that people who do not rape children should not be allowed to vote on whether or not raping children is legalized???

I am not attempting to compare gays to child molesters...but you simply said "minorities" and minorities can mean many things. Therefore, you should let EVERYONE vote on ALL issues.

Except you ARE comparing gays to child molesters.

There will never be a vote on child molestation....because it's a crime. It's rape. Rape is illegal. No vote neccessary.

I mean...should Rape be something we get to vote????

No.

Why??

Because people would be hurt and dehumanized. You'd literally, strip away human rights from people. Women mostly.

Which is how I direct my compass usually. If people are being hurt...maybe...just maybe, I should be on the side of the people being unfairly treated.

I believe that I am the true God of the universe. I believe that all Americans should pay a hefty tax that goes to line my holy pockets.

According to a recent survey i just did of my house, i am the only person on earth who believes that I am god...and therefore, as a minority, I should be the only person allowe to vote on this issue.

Pay up people! Your god is here!

one person isn't enough to count as a minority.

It's enough to call them crazy. But not a minority, because the majority would slap you down for it.

Child rape is only a crime because the majority deem it to be so.


No.

It's a crime because it's beyond wrong.

Im not mocking anything. The claim here is that minorities should have the right to decide on issues that affect and restrict the majority.


What restriction?

The only restriction happening is keeping people who love each other from getting married.

That's the only restriction I see discussed here.

[Heretic]

Actually the statement was that the majority should not be allowed to vote on minority issues. That leads to only one conclusio...that only minorities can vote on minority issues...which means that every vote ever made would go to benefit those who were privileged enough to vote.

If you want to say that it was worded poorly, then fine...but my issue here is with the exact wording of the post...not some new interpretation of that wording.

[The Senator]

I'm going to guess that you believe that the legal system will prove to be ahead of the general public where it regards this specific issue. Correct? Maybe not, but I can't believe that civil unions will be illegal for the remainder of my lifetime (another forty years statistically)

Yes. The Connecticut, New Jersey, California, New Hampshire and Iowa (!) courts all prove this...

[Sloth7d]

Having the right to marry the same sex should be no different than same sex individuals having the right to date each other. It's not illegal or hurting anyone, therefore, it should be restriction free. Legal.

[Charlie No-One]

You drew a conclusion that doesn't correspond with my initial post no matter how poorly worded it was. I never said that only minorities should vote on minority issues. I said why should a minority issue be left up to the majority. So no matter which way you interpreted my text, I am unsure how you even managed to pull this out of it:

Actually the statement was that the majority should not be allowed to vote on minority issues. That leads to only one conclusio...that only minorities can vote on minority issues...which means that every vote ever made would go to benefit those who were privileged enough to vote.

If you want to say that it was worded poorly, then fine...but my issue here is with the exact wording of the post...not some new interpretation of that wording.

That is nowhere implied in my post all.

[The Senator]

Actually the statement was that the majority should not be allowed to vote on minority issues. That leads to only one conclusio...that only minorities can vote on minority issues...which means that every vote ever made would go to benefit those who were privileged enough to vote.

If you want to say that it was worded poorly, then fine...but my issue here is with the exact wording of the post...not some new interpretation of that wording.

Um, the wording of that post never implied that I thought minorities should decide rights for themselves. It strictly stated that the majority should not decide rights for minorities; nowhere did it imply the ridiculous and condescending hyperbolic nonsense you have spewed in the past page...

[ChrisBaleBatman]

But the minority usually decides the big issues.

That's why there wasn't a vote to go to war with Iraq.

The minority decides a lot for the majority in this country. The big politicians are examples of that.

And if you think white people out number minorities in this country...you're probably wrong. I wouldn't be shocked if ALL minorities together greatly outnumbered whites in this country.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

If you want to say that it was worded poorly, then fine...but my issue here is with the exact wording of the post...not some new interpretation of that wording.

the exact wording is the few versus the many, I assume.

On this issue....that doesn't mean v. White people.

Because white people are not really the majority on this one.

[Heretic]

White people, though we outnumber a single minority, does not outnumber the totality of minorities in this country.

I get what you guys are saying....and I recognize that you are retreating from your statements that may or may not have implied that minorities should be allowed to vote for the majorities.

And really, we're all on the same side on this issue. If gay people want to endure the hell and damnation that is marriage, then they should be able to. It is hurting absolutely no one, and from a religious perspective...wait...who cares about the religious perspective since we are free to worship or not worship as we choose. The religious people who are angry about this are basically wanting to impose their religion upon the constitution.

However, i still think that...at this time...it is a matter to be left to the states. Perhaps time will change that, but I havent reached that point yet.

[The Senator]

If you give this argument for gay marriage:



And really, we're all on the same side on this issue. If gay people want to endure the hell and damnation that is marriage, then they should be able to. It is hurting absolutely no one, and from a religious perspective...wait...who cares about the religious perspective since we are free to worship or not worship as we choose. The religious people who are angry about this are basically wanting to impose their religion upon the constitution.

...then how can you say this:


However, i still think that...at this time...it is a matter to be left to the states. Perhaps time will change that, but I havent reached that point yet.

...considering the overtly religious people in this country--particularly the religious right-- are the ones who will ultimately make the decision on this issue? :huh:

[ChrisBaleBatman]

But didn't we all mean by minorities "the few"?

Because if it's about race...we've gotta make wholesale changes to this argument.

[BlackLantern]

So why aren't black churches and communities being protested in this Prop 8 thing? 70 percent is quite the number....

I support this cause but, and I hate to say it, people might have to bleed to get this over

[ChrisBaleBatman]

However, i still think that...at this time...it is a matter to be left to the states. Perhaps time will change that, but I havent reached that point yet.


But what needs to change?

Do we need to check our temperature in 40 years to check and say, "Nah, gays still aren't people"?

I don't know if leaving it to time is enough. Because time won't change anything, I think.

What do you think about the half-tax argument about not being able to marry? You think that's fair?

[SentinelMind]

Chuch experience is a pretty fundamental and critical segment of civil rights movement and Black Identity in this country. many Blacks looked towards religion to find outlet for confirm their worth and self-respect and religion played a big part in convincing whites on a human-level, emotional level to agree with civil rights causes in this country. Christianity is intertwined with a large part of Black identity, which is why they're less likely to look favorably on issues as gay marriage than even whites. Of course, many liberals assume all minorities with "rationally" bond with each other and are confused when they don't, because they don't understand their perspective.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

So why aren't black churches and communities being protested in this Prop 8 thing? 70 percent is quite the number....

I think they're going after the money, which in this case I've heard is coming from the Big Love people...the Mormons who are strongly against gay marriage and funded the whole campaign against it this year.

I support this cause but, and I hate to say it, people might have to bleed to get this over

I'm afraid your right.

Usually, it's the dramatic events that seem to shake people into acting. I hope it doesn't come to that.

[BlackLantern]

Chuch experience is a pretty fundamental and critical segment of civil rights movement and Black Identity in this country. many Blacks looked towards religion to find outlet for confirm their worth and self-respect and religion played a big part in advancing civil rights causes in this country. Christianity is intertwined with a large part of Black identity, which is why they're less likely to look favorably on issues as gay marriage than even whites. Of course, many liberals assume all minorities with "rationally" bond with each other and are confused when they don't, because they don't understand their perspective.

Agreed...that was basically my point to some people when we were talking about the black community as it relates to Prop 8....

[BlackLantern]

I'm afraid your right.

Usually, it's the dramatic events that seem to shake people into acting. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Honestly, I hope I am wrong...but we seem to live in a society that is only galvanized by tragedy.....If you told a gay couple that wants to get married that the only way to do that would be to sacrifice another gay couple in a vicious hate crime...what do you think their answer would be??

[Sloth7d]

Chuch experience is a pretty fundamental and critical segment of civil rights movement and Black Identity in this country. many Blacks looked towards religion to find outlet for confirm their worth and self-respect and religion played a big part in convincing whites on a human-level, emotional level to agree with civil rights causes in this country. Christianity is intertwined with a large part of Black identity, which is why they're less likely to look favorably on issues as gay marriage than even whites. Of course, many liberals assume all minorities with "rationally" bond with each other and are confused when they don't, because they don't understand their perspective.

The older black people? Sure. The new generation? Not so much. Me and most of my friends have either questioned the religions we were born in to the point where you might as well not refer to us as religious, or we down right discarded the belief.

[Heretic]

If you give this argument for gay marriage:



...then how can you say this:



...considering the overtly religious people in this country--particularly the religious right-- are the ones who will ultimately make the decision on this issue? :huh:

the religious right are not a majority...or wed have pat Robertson as president.

Um...lets all take a moment to let that horror sink in.

[cerealkiller182]

Honestly, I hope I am wrong...but we seem to live in a society that is only galvanized by tragedy.....If you told a gay couple that wants to get married that the only way to do that would be to sacrifice another gay couple in a vicious hate crime...what do you think their answer would be??

No!

[ChrisBaleBatman]

It seems like the ends justify the means when it comes to everything in this country.

This world, really.

[The Senator]

the religious right are not a majority...or wed have pat Robertson as president.

Um...lets all take a moment to let that horror sink in.

The reason why Robertson lost the 1988 Republican Primary was because he had to compete with a Vice President who had just come off of what many considered a successful eight year period in American history. Had Robertson been up the candidates who ran in 2008 twenty years ago, I do believe he would have been the nominee, and very well would have been president.

Additionally, the evangelical movement in American politics did not peak until 2004... and is slowly unraveling right now. However, statistics show that evangelical voters are the most mobilized voting bloc in the United States, and most of those who vote to ban gay marriage claim to be "highly religious."

[Heretic]

But what needs to change?

Do we need to check our temperature in 40 years to check and say, "Nah, gays still aren't people"?

I don't know if leaving it to time is enough. Because time won't change anything, I think.

What do you think about the half-tax argument about not being able to marry? You think that's fair?

I am secure enough with myself to admit that I dont have all the answers. Since I dont have all the answers, and dont believe that my beliefs should be the law of the land, I am willing to give the issue some time to breathe. Some states will make it legal, and some wont. Over time I think more and more will...and truthfully...though blacks voted overwhlemingly to ban it...they dont traditionally vote in every election. Also, old people (surprise) voted for the ban more than blacks did. Old people...by definition...are closer to death than younger people...so therefore youth will eventually turn the tide.

[Charlie No-One]

If you were in love and wanted to get married but it was against the law to, would you want to wait?

[BlackLantern]

If you were in love and wanted to get married but it was against the law to, would you want to wait?

Contrary to popular belief...Love does not conquer all

[Charlie No-One]

I know, I was responding to Heretic's statement about allowing the issue to "have some time to breathe."

[Heretic]

I know, I was responding to Heretic's statement about allowing the issue to "have some time to breathe."

I, unlike you, am aware that my belief system is not suited for everyone and that I may not be right on every issue all the time. Therefore, I am willing to let the states decide on this...which many...many will approve it...and as I said before with less blacks and old people voting in the future, what is currently viewed as wrong and a blasphemy against god will later be seen as normal, which it truly is.

So yeah, Im willing to wait it out until further notice. I trust in democracy to make the correct decision.

[UltimateJustin]

My friend's arguement is "if gays get married, then what next?" I didn't have an immediate comeback prepared.

[StorminNorman]

If blacks have equal rights then what next?

Women?

Latinos?

Soap Opera Guest Stars?

The humanity!

[The Battousai]

My friend's arguement is "if gays get married, then what next?" I didn't have an immediate comeback prepared.

What, exactly, is the context of that remark?

[BlackLantern]

If blacks have equal rights then what next?

Women?

Latinos?

Soap Opera Guest Stars?

The humanity!

No...they just get thrown off of a bridge, get amensia, and are replaced by an evil twin with facial hair....

[wiegeabo]

My friend's arguement is "if gays get married, then what next?" I didn't have an immediate comeback prepared.


Just say "You're right. Look what happened when we gave blacks and women equal rights."

Let them chew on that for a while.

[UltimateJustin]

What, exactly, is the context of that remark?
I wrote "PROP 8 187 killa" in RED sharpie on the benches and started a revolution. Only it's a revolution of people calling me ***. So, apparently, if Prop 8 were to fail to pass then all gay activists would have to disband according to my opponents and enemies. So I guess I should use then soap opera line.

[The Battousai]

:huh:

I suggest you try to make sense

[The Senator]

I wrote "PROP 8 187 killa" in RED sharpie on the benches and started a revolution. Only it's a revolution of people calling me ***. So, apparently, if Prop 8 were to fail to pass then all gay activists would have to disband according to my opponents and enemies. So I guess I should use then soap opera line.

Please don't send our movement ten steps backwards. Thanks. :o

[UltimateJustin]

Please don't send our movement ten steps backwards. Thanks. :o
I have to follow my heart. Thats all any of us could ever do.

[The Senator]

I have to follow my heart. Thats all any of us could ever do.

Vandalism and having a divisive attitude about the situation are not the way to do it, though.

[BlackLantern]

I was talking with a great aunt of mine...who is 95 years old....she feels that a person should marry whoever they choose, but she also said that black people suffered a lot for equality....we were enslaved, beaten, hung, killed, raped and basically endured a world of suffering to get where we are today....her point was that having equality for black people meant fighting for it, fighting hard, and sacrificing....

[spideyboy_1111]

Should the minority be allowed to make laws for the majority???

Youre wanting a single judge to be able to over rule the will of millions of people.

Sure, weve had some hiccups. The mere fact that blacks were EVER considered less than equal is wrong...but still...I feel uncomfortable with a judge altering the decision of the people. Hopefully other states will legalize gay marriage and eventually all states will come around. It really is kind of ridiculous for gays to not have the same marriage rights as straight people.

Gay Marriage DOES NOT affect anyone but the families uniting and to hearts becoming one, This is why i find it personally wrong. Human rights should be a given, not voted upon.

[spideyboy_1111]

Im not mocking anything. The claim here is that minorities should have the right to decide on issues that affect and restrict the majority.

Note that i specifically worded it that way. The belief here is that the majority should NOT be able to have any say whatsoever in their own futures and that the minorities should be able to decide for them.

Higher taxes?? lets not allow rich people to vote on it!!!


Only welfare recipients should be allowed to vote on whetheer or not welfare is cut or expanded!

It is ridiculous and should be mocked.

okay, so i am mocking it.

Your money is going into welfare though so it affects you. You gain and lose absolutely nothing with gay marriage.

[Heretic]

Gay Marriage DOES NOT affect anyone but the families uniting and to hearts becoming one, This is why i find it personally wrong. Human rights should be a given, not voted upon.

I do see your point. I find it rather insulting that Republicans are the "pro family" party, yet they stand so steadfastly against the concept of two people who are in love becoming a family. I guess Conservatives driink the religious right kool aid so much that they dont realize that gay marriage is actually a Conservative concept.

[spideyboy_1111]

Chuch experience is a pretty fundamental and critical segment of civil rights movement and Black Identity in this country. many Blacks looked towards religion to find outlet for confirm their worth and self-respect and religion played a big part in convincing whites on a human-level, emotional level to agree with civil rights causes in this country. Christianity is intertwined with a large part of Black identity, which is why they're less likely to look favorably on issues as gay marriage than even whites. Of course, many liberals assume all minorities with "rationally" bond with each other and are confused when they don't, because they don't understand their perspective.

I personally think that the Black community needs to be better educated with MLK's support for gay rights. He actually was a (strait) gay activist. But he realized the nation needed baby steps, and let other races get the rights first. Hell it took me 23 years to learn about MLK's involvement with gay rights, i'm willing to bet 80-90% of the black community isn't aware of it either.

[spideyboy_1111]

Contrary to popular belief...Love does not conquer all

actually i'm a firm believer in that it actually does. It just takes one hell of alot longer time. Which is why i believe in activism, and not sitting around lighting candles, singing kumbiya and hoping for the best. It's why i've walked 30 miles the past few days.

[spideyboy_1111]

I was talking with a great aunt of mine...who is 95 years old....she feels that a person should marry whoever they choose, but she also said that black people suffered a lot for equality....we were enslaved, beaten, hung, killed, raped and basically endured a world of suffering to get where we are today....her point was that having equality for black people meant fighting for it, fighting hard, and sacrificing....

while the gay community hasn't had it as bad as the african-american one, doesn't make it any different imo...

we've suffered quite alot as well... concentration camps in Nazi Germany, beaten, hung, castrated, murdered, run over by cars (i had an online friend in alabama who had his legs run over for being gay), raped (it's happened), not to mention we deal with just as many "jokes" on tv and ridicule as the black community did.

[spideyboy_1111]

I do see your point. I find it rather insulting that Republicans are the "pro family" party, yet they stand so steadfastly against the concept of two people who are in love becoming a family. I guess Conservatives driink the religious right kool aid so much that they dont realize that gay marriage is actually a Conservative concept.

indeed, this is where the bigotry comes in. I'm sure those against prop 8 would rather us not even have civil unions, but when they use the argument of "you still get your rights with it" and calling both the same thing it's like... IF IT'S THE SAME THING then why are you sooooo threatened by one? And like i've said time and time again, the only thing it boils down to is FEAR and HATE

[CaptainClown]

while the gay community hasn't had it as bad as the african-american one, doesn't make it any different imo...

we've suffered quite alot as well... concentration camps in Nazi Germany, beaten, hung, castrated, murdered, run over by cars (i had an online friend in alabama who had his legs run over for being gay), raped (it's happened), not to mention we deal with just as many "jokes" on tv and ridicule as the black community did.
Eh, I think its a lot easier to hide the fact you are gay then it is to hide the fact your black or any other race.

[Schlosser85]

Eh, I think its a lot easier to hide the fact you are gay then it is to hide the fact your black or any other race.

No one should have to. But people who don't hide it are often met with viciousness.

[wiegeabo]

I personally think that the Black community needs to be better educated with MLK's support for gay rights. He actually was a (strait) gay activist. But he realized the nation needed baby steps, and let other races get the rights first. Hell it took me 23 years to learn about MLK's involvement with gay rights, i'm willing to bet 80-90% of the black community isn't aware of it either.

Hell, I don't remember that. And I've done reports on the man. Just bumps him up a few more points in my book. :up:

[CaptainClown]

No one should have to. But people who don't hide it are often met with viciousness.
I didn't say it was right. However to compare the struggle of homosexuality with the struggle of a race just doesn't seem right imo. I think homosexuals have definitly suffered but I think prejudice of race has it trumped.

[Heretic]

indeed, this is where the bigotry comes in. I'm sure those against prop 8 would rather us not even have civil unions, but when they use the argument of "you still get your rights with it" and calling both the same thing it's like... IF IT'S THE SAME THING then why are you sooooo threatened by one? And like i've said time and time again, the only thing it boils down to is FEAR and HATE

Black democrats were a big part of that ban being passed...so you might want to spread some blame.

I do think that you cant compare the struggle of blacks to the struggle of gays. Both should have equal rights and what has gone down with both has been wrong, but its a different circumstance from an outsiders view. The gay community has been baiting and playing games with the issue for years, while blacks simply wanted people to stop beating and owning them.

[wiegeabo]

indeed, this is where the bigotry comes in. I'm sure those against prop 8 would rather us not even have civil unions, but when they use the argument of "you still get your rights with it" and calling both the same thing it's like... IF IT'S THE SAME THING then why are you sooooo threatened by one? And like i've said time and time again, the only thing it boils down to is FEAR and HATE


Exactly. One of our commercials in California said exactly that. "They already have Civil Unions and have the exact same rights" (to paraphrase). I just sat there looking at the tv thinking...WTF?! If it's the same...then what's the big deal? Why ban it?


Here's something the Prop 8 supporters need to think about. The exact text of the amendment to our constitution is "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."

So, yes, two gay men who love each other cannot marry. Two gay women who love each other cannot marry. But a gay man and a gay woman who don't love each other can. Because it would still be marriage between a man and a woman!

So there goes the whole 'sanctity of marriage' argument. Hell, any man and woman can marry whether they love, hate, or are indifferent to each other.

[spideyboy_1111]

Eh, I think its a lot easier to hide the fact you are gay then it is to hide the fact your black or any other race.

thats the key word right there. We should not have to hide. Sure not every gay guy or lesbian "looks gay" but many do, because they don't want to hide who they are, and who they are does not fit into what society dictates is the "norm"

[CaptainClown]

thats the key word right there. We should not have to hide. Sure not every gay guy or lesbian "looks gay" but many do, because they don't want to hide who they are, and who they are does not fit into what society dictates is the "norm"
Again, I am not saying which one is right. However prejudice because of someones appearance is something that is very hard to hide; and to compare to a sexual preference is hardly the same. While both are BAD, the keyword here being BAD to say that homosexuals had it worse then some races of people just seems straight up wrong.

[spideyboy_1111]

Black democrats were a big part of that ban being passed...so you might want to spread some blame.

I do think that you cant compare the struggle of blacks to the struggle of gays. Both should have equal rights and what has gone down with both has been wrong, but its a different circumstance from an outsiders view. The gay community has been baiting and playing games with the issue for years, while blacks simply wanted people to stop beating and owning them.

O and we are, problem is the black community throws the race card in, and there honestly one of the hardest communities to deal with in that situation. Recently the heads of the No on 8 campaign issued a letter proceeding with caution about attacking Mormons and the black and latino communities. Pretty much the only thing we can do is educate. I also wouldn't object to marching through a predominantly black neighborhood, but unfortunately it's a risk of public safety too... due to LA's biggest black neighborhoods also being gang territory. And like i said before, its alot easier to target a physical building then it is a community.

[spideyboy_1111]

Exactly. One of our commercials in California said exactly that. "They already have Civil Unions and have the exact same rights" (to paraphrase). I just sat there looking at the tv thinking...WTF?! If it's the same...then what's the big deal? Why ban it?


Here's something the Prop 8 supporters need to think about. The exact text of the amendment to our constitution is "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."

So, yes, two gay men who love each other cannot marry. Two gay women who love each other cannot marry. But a gay man and a gay woman who don't love each other can. Because it would still be marriage between a man and a woman!

So there goes the whole 'sanctity of marriage' argument. Hell, any man and woman can marry whether they love, hate, or are indifferent to each other.

Not to mention the "family" argument is asinine. Marriage or not does not stop the union of a gay couple and there ability to have and raise kids. And it's astoundingly moronic that the Yes campaign used children as shields in this campaign.

[spideyboy_1111]

Again, I am not saying which one is right. However prejudice because of someones appearance is something that is very hard to hide; and to compare to a sexual preference is hardly the same. While both are BAD, the keyword here being BAD to say that homosexuals had it worse then some races of people just seems straight up wrong.

All i'm saying is tell that to kids who are naturally effeminate and grow up being bullied in high school because of the way they looked when walking, spoke, or the guy in the corner who's shy, and automatically labled gay because he's not talking about girls 24/7.

i grew up hating the fact i knew i was gay deep inside. I didn't want to be because i knew those f'ers would be right. Nothing about me screamed i was gay, yet they knew. I dressed normal, i acted normal. The only things they ever based anything on, was the fact i was quiet, shy, didn't have a girlfriend or play sports. So pardon me if i honestly don't see much of a difference between a 1 second notification of a persons race, or a 2 minute notification or assumption of someones sexual orientation.

and not once have i ever said gays have it worse then any race or gender or implied it.

[The Senator]

while the gay community hasn't had it as bad as the african-american one, doesn't make it any different imo...

we've suffered quite alot as well... concentration camps in Nazi Germany, beaten, hung, castrated, murdered, run over by cars (i had an online friend in alabama who had his legs run over for being gay), raped (it's happened), not to mention we deal with just as many "jokes" on tv and ridicule as the black community did.

The other thing is, I would like to think that we as a global society have learned from previous mistakes, and are willing to move a lot faster when it comes to civil rights. We've come a long way in fifty years. Homosexuals used to be declared mentally ill, and we were forbidden from being employed by the federal government because we were considered "immoral." Every state used to outlaw sodomy, every state used to punish homosexual behavior with imprisonment or fines... some states went as far to punish homosexuals with life time imprisonment had they violated sodomy laws more than three times...

Yet, in fifty years, we are almost on the brink of so many legal breakthroughs. It took African Americans over 180 years to gain full equality in this country, under the law at least; granted, homosexuals have been around since the dawn of time, but our movement has been short-lived in comparison. I hope that we can achieve full equality well before 180 years have passed. I hope we have learned from our mistakes as a country.

[wiegeabo]

Not to mention the "family" argument is asinine. Marriage or not does not stop the union of a gay couple and there ability to have and raise kids. And it's astoundingly moronic that the Yes campaign used children as shields in this campaign.

They are truly most deserving of the Picard facepalm.

:facepalm

[CaptainClown]

gay marriage is a perfect solution for adopting and orphans. Pro-life people should be happy that now their daughter who got knocked up at age 16 can now have her child adopted by a loving couple who can provide for the child where as their 16 year old daughter can not.

[The Senator]

Again, I am not saying which one is right. However prejudice because of someones appearance is something that is very hard to hide; and to compare to a sexual preference is hardly the same. While both are BAD, the keyword here being BAD to say that homosexuals had it worse then some races of people just seems straight up wrong.

Well, let's look at Latinos and Asians. They have had some difficult times because of their race, this is true; but they avoided segregation, for the most part, and have avoided many civil rights struggles that African Americans experienced throughout American history. Granted, they have been treated as pariahs-- the internment debacle during WWII, the current "illegal immigration" crusade-- but for the most part, being Latino or Asian in this country was not considered a "crime," nor were there rights infringed upon throughout history based on their race.

To put this in an even greater perspective, Asians technically had more rights than African Americans in 1959: Hawaii became a state, and the bulk of that country's population consisted of Asians. Thousands of miles away, though, African Americans were still forced to sit on the back of the bus and drink out of different water fountains than whites. Even better, the United States Congress apologized to the Japanese who were interred during WWII BEFORE it apologized for slavery. In fact, we apologized for slavery only a few months ago, and that apology only occurred when the only white Congressman representing a majority-black district had a competitive primary against a black man.

But to get to my greater point:

Homosexuals have actually had laws on the books forbidding their lifestyles. African Americans had laws on the books forbidding them rights due to skin color. These two movements, to some degree, are entirely comparable. And it is perfectly justified to say that homosexuals have had it worse than some races, because when it comes down to history and the law, we have had it worse than Asians and Latinos, as well as other minorities in this country.

[spideyboy_1111]

gay marriage is a perfect solution for adopting and orphans. Pro-life people should be happy that now their daughter who got knocked up at age 16 can now have her child adopted by a loving couple who can provide for the child where as their 16 year old daughter can not.

sadly if given the choice, i think Pro-life/conservative supporters would rather have there children work in a sweat shop in a 3rd world country, or be completely aborted then to have there child raised by a loving gay couple that could give them more then they could.

[CaptainClown]

Well, let's look at Latinos and Asians. They have had some difficult times because of their race, this is true; but they avoided segregation, for the most part, and have avoided many civil rights struggles that African Americans experienced throughout American history. Granted, they have been treated as pariahs-- the internment debacle during WWII, the current "illegal immigration" crusade-- but for the most part, being Latino or Asian in this country was not considered a "crime," nor were there rights infringed upon throughout history based on their race.

To put this in an even greater perspective, Asians technically had more rights than African Americans in 1959: Hawaii became a state, and the bulk of that country's population consisted of Asians. Thousands of miles away, though, African Americans were still forced to sit on the back of the bus and drink out of different water fountains than whites. Even better, the United States Congress apologized to the Japanese who were interred during WWII BEFORE it apologized for slavery. In fact, we apologized for slavery only a few months ago, and that apology only occurred when the only white Congressman representing a majority-black district had a competitive primary against a black man.

But to get to my greater point:

Homosexuals have actually had laws on the books forbidding their lifestyles. African Americans had laws on the books forbidding them rights due to skin color. These two movements, to some degree, are entirely comparable. And it is perfectly justified to say that homosexuals have had it worse than some races, because when it comes down to history and the law, we have had it worse than Asians and Latinos, as well as other minorities in this country.Asians? Latinos? Avoiding segregation? Sorry, my family is both latino and Asian and my grandparents have talked about segregation in which they weren't even given an option. There is a black Bathroom and a white bathroom... they were neither so where would they go? The United States even went as far as to lock up all Japanese. Chinese soldiers had to wear signs on their backs that said "Not a Jap" and they weren't allowed to marry white women or men either. Also the Zoot Suit Riots and the laws in which it stated "English only"

Hispanic workers who were even native to this country have been given much lower wages and like I said were also ordered to be segregated. Also deportation has been happening since the 1920s.

As for asians, here is a nice little nugget I found
http://www.pensitoreview.com/2008/11/12/florida-preserves-its-anti-asian-heritage/
Nov. 12, 2008
Last week, 52 percent of Florida voters voted to keep an 80-year-old state constitutional amendment (http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2008/oct/26/amendment-1-targets-floridas-anti-asian-land-law/) on the books that prevents Asian immigrants from owning property in the state. The provision dates back to the early 19oos, when a significant influx of Asian immigrants — especially on the West Coast — prompted California and eight other states to pass similar anti-Asian ownership laws.

It is easier to segregate an entire race that looks and has different values, then it is to "try" and find a lifestyle that has been underground for centuries.

[Gilpesh]

I hope we have learned from our mistakes as a country.

Yeah.... doubtful...

[Sloth7d]

O and we are, problem is the black community throws the race card in, and there honestly one of the hardest communities to deal with in that situation. Recently the heads of the No on 8 campaign issued a letter proceeding with caution about attacking Mormons and the black and latino communities. Pretty much the only thing we can do is educate. I also wouldn't object to marching through a predominantly black neighborhood, but unfortunately it's a risk of public safety too... due to LA's biggest black neighborhoods also being gang territory. And like i said before, its alot easier to target a physical building then it is a community.

If it helps, I'm black, straight, a voter, and for Gay rights. I've also had frequent arguments with my family members and friends as to why they feel so against gay people, so there's at least one of us supporting your cause. Well, and the actual gay black people who I'm sure do too.

[spideyboy_1111]

Asians? Latinos? Avoiding segregation? Sorry, my family is both latino and Asian and my grandparents have talked about segregation in which they weren't even given an option. There is a black Bathroom and a white bathroom... they were neither so where would they go? The United States even went as far as to lock up all Japanese. Chinese soldiers had to wear signs on their backs that said "Not a Jap" and they weren't allowed to marry white women or men either. Also the Zoot Suit Riots and the laws in which it stated "English only"

Hispanic workers who were even native to this country have been given much lower wages and like I said were also ordered to be segregated. Also deportation has been happening since the 1920s.

As for asians, here is a nice little nugget I found
http://www.pensitoreview.com/2008/11/12/florida-preserves-its-anti-asian-heritage/
Nov. 12, 2008
Last week, 52 percent of Florida voters voted to keep an 80-year-old state constitutional amendment (http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2008/oct/26/amendment-1-targets-floridas-anti-asian-land-law/) on the books that prevents Asian immigrants from owning property in the state. The provision dates back to the early 19oos, when a significant influx of Asian immigrants — especially on the West Coast — prompted California and eight other states to pass similar anti-Asian ownership laws.

It is easier to segregate an entire race that looks and has different values, then it is to "try" and find a lifestyle that has been underground for centuries.
Jman never said they avoided it completely. But They did not have it nearly as hard as the African-Americans. any who the point to this whole topic is the fact we've ALL endured quite alot, and all have been denied our Civil Rights as HUMANS. We've all suffered and rather then coming together, everyone's pride is forcing us apart. "they didn't go through _________ so they aren't anyway related" argument is rubbish. we've all ordeal ed alot, and many of us have been attacked in different ways and different situations. The point is were all oppressed, all been austrosized (sp?), all been persecuted, all have been beaten, all have been killed for being what we were born to be, and those things alone should unite us.

[The Senator]

Asians? Latinos? Avoiding segregation? Sorry, my family is both latino and Asian and my grandparents have talked about segregation in which they weren't even given an option. There is a black Bathroom and a white bathroom... they were neither so where would they go? The United States even went as far as to lock up all Japanese. Chinese soldiers had to wear signs on their backs that said "Not a Jap" and they weren't allowed to marry white women or men either. Also the Zoot Suit Riots and the laws in which it stated "English only"

Hispanic workers who were even native to this country have been given much lower wages and like I said were also ordered to be segregated. Also deportation has been happening since the 1920s.

As for asians, here is a nice little nugget I found
http://www.pensitoreview.com/2008/11/12/florida-preserves-its-anti-asian-heritage/
Nov. 12, 2008
Last week, 52 percent of Florida voters voted to keep an 80-year-old state constitutional amendment (http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2008/oct/26/amendment-1-targets-floridas-anti-asian-land-law/) on the books that prevents Asian immigrants from owning property in the state. The provision dates back to the early 19oos, when a significant influx of Asian immigrants — especially on the West Coast — prompted California and eight other states to pass similar anti-Asian ownership laws.

It is easier to segregate an entire race that looks and has different values, then it is to "try" and find a lifestyle that has been underground for centuries.

You obviously missed the part of my post where I said they avoided segregation for "the most part." You also missed the part where I explicitly mentioned internment camps, and how the United States apologized for its atrocious behavior towards the Japanese YEARS before it apologized for its far more atrocious behavior towards African Americans. So while there has been segregation against the Japanese and Latinos, you can hardly claim that they had it worse than blacks... and in the greater scheme of things, you can hardly claim that they have had it worse than homosexuals on a multitude of issues...

[CaptainClown]

Jman never said they avoided it completely. But They did not have it nearly as hard as the African-Americans. any who the point to this whole topic is the fact we've ALL endured quite alot, and all have been denied our Civil Rights as HUMANS. We've all suffered and rather then coming together, everyone's pride is forcing us apart. "they didn't go through _________ so they aren't anyway related" argument is rubbish. we've all ordeal ed alot, and many of us have been attacked in different ways and different situations. The point is were all oppressed, all been austrosized (sp?), all been persecuted, all have been beaten, all have been killed for being what we were born to be, and those things alone should unite us.And my thing is, I feel homosexuals have not had it as hard as many of the races have had it here in America. Hell we almost got rid of the Native Americans, and we still determine a certain amount of blood makes you a Native American. Arabs are held without trial, Hawaiins were bought by Dole, hispanics don't get a chance at this country and Asians were exploited to build railroads.

I love this country.

[CaptainClown]

You obviously missed the part of my post where I said they avoided segregation for "the most part." You also missed the part where I explicitly mentioned internment camps, and how the United States apologized for its atrocious behavior towards the Japanese YEARS before it apologized for its far more atrocious behavior towards African Americans. So while there has been segregation against the Japanese and Latinos, you can hardly claim that they had it worse than blacks... and in the greater scheme of things, you can hardly claim that they have had it worse than homosexuals on a multitude of issues...
You obviously missed how you said "apologized" and I am stating that they did it. I don't care if they apologized they did it. Also I am saying they didn't avoid segregation at all. Hispanics and Asians have always been a portion in the American culture there is no way around them missing segregation at all.

Also you obviously missed where I said "they had it worse then blacks" oh ya, I didn't say that. I am saying that while there have been prejudices against homosexuals, race has always trumped it.

look at us arguing who had it worse.

[spideyboy_1111]

If it helps, I'm black, straight, a voter, and for Gay rights. I've also had frequent arguments with my family members and friends as to why they feel so against gay people, so there's at least one of us supporting your cause. Well, and the actual gay black people who I'm sure do too.

people just need enlightened. My favorite of course (like the story with my cousin) is when a conservative racial/homophobic family, ends up having a gay child... lol I like to think that's god working his magic :D

[The Senator]

And my thing is, I feel homosexuals have not had it as hard as many of the races have had it here in America. Hell we almost got rid of the Native Americans, and we still determine a certain amount of blood makes you a Native American. Arabs are held without trial, Hawaiins were bought by Dole, hispanics don't get a chance at this country and Asians were exploited to build railroads.

I love this country.

And homosexuals used to be stoned to death, hanged, and burned at the state in Colonial America. They used to be imprisoned in some states for breaking sodomy laws, sometimes for life depending on which state they were tried in. Yeah, discrimination against homosexuals in America came without chains or manual labor (and even that isn't entirely true, as gay men were forced to perform manual labor in the military up until WWII if they were suspected of being gay), but it comes with the same denial of rights and liberties, the same societal damnation, and similar prejudices as exhibited to racial and ethnic groups throughout the course of history. And yes, in many cases, homosexuals have had it worse than other minorities, especially on a global scale, because while your ancestors may have been interned at a camp somewhere in Wyoming, gay people were gassed and shot by the Nazis during WWII; they were and still are stoned to death by barbaric Middle Eastern governments; they are imprisoned and/ or executed for committing homosexual acts in China; they are still denied employment by corporations and the military in America; etc.

[CaptainClown]

And homosexuals used to be stoned to death, hanged, and burned at the state in Colonial America. They used to be imprisoned in some states for breaking sodomy laws, sometimes for life depending on which state they were tried in. Yeah, discrimination against homosexuals in America came without chains or manual labor (and even that isn't entirely true, as gay men were forced to perform manual labor in the military up until WWII if they were suspected of being gay), but it comes with the same denial of rights and liberties, the same societal damnation, and similar prejudices as exhibited to racial and ethnic groups throughout the course of history. And yes, in many cases, homosexuals have had it worse than other minorities, especially on a global scale, because while your ancestors may have been interned at a camp somewhere in Wyoming, gay people were gassed and shot by the Nazis during WWII; they were and still are stoned to death by barbaric Middle Eastern governments; etc.
And minorities didn't get stoned, hung, burned, imprisoned for breaking religious laws? Japanese didn't slaughter millions of Chinese at Nanking? Hutus did not kill Tutsis? Jews and gypsies were not being gassed as well? Armenians by the Turkish? MANIFIST DESTINY!
Homosexuals were all killed in all of those because homosexuality knows no ethnicity. Ethnicity and race have been major stigmas around the world and more homosexuals would have experienced more prejudice against race then they would have against homosexuality.
It is easier to hide a sexual preference then it is to hide your ethnicity, and while the attacks against homosexuals are literally horrendous, the evils ethnocentric mentality has always hurt more.
In the wake of the civil rights movement we have come a long way, but to say homosexuality has suffered more then certain races is pushing it imo. Homosexuals are suffering and we need to fix that,but yarace has always been our biggest leap to get over.

[Sloth7d]

people just need enlightened. My favorite of course (like the story with my cousin) is when a conservative racial/homophobic family, ends up having a gay child... lol I like to think that's god working his magic :D

Some people just can't be enlightened I find though. Whether they're too afraid to associate with a gay person because they feel it unpopular (one of my friends), or they're afraid of being raped by gay people:whatever:/are probably in the closet themselves(another friend I believe this to be the case), or they are too convicted in their religions(most of my family). But hey, it's probably just as ironic that my sister is bi-sexual, though sadly she tries not to indulge in women too much because of the rest of my family. Sad thing is, one my sister's ex's was actually a cool woman, who you'd think would change my family's veiws, but what can you do? She just didn't.

[The Senator]

The fact that many of us have to hide our sexuality shows how barbaric society has been to us in the past, in my opinion. People wouldn't hide their sexual orientation if they didn't have a reason to, and those reasons are due to centuries worth of atrocious and discriminatory acts.

I would say that a lot of ethnic groups have suffered more than homosexuals. Many races have suffered more than homosexuals. But in some instances, I believe that homosexuals have had it worse.

[spideyboy_1111]

And minorities didn't get stoned, hung, burned, imprisoned for breaking religious laws? Japanese didn't slaughter millions of Chinese at Nanking? Hutus did not kill Tutsis? Jews and gypsies were not being gassed as well? Armenians by the Turkish? MANIFIST DESTINY!
Homosexuals were all killed in all of those because homosexuality knows no ethnicity. Ethnicity and race have been major stigmas around the world and more homosexuals would have experienced more prejudice against race then they would have against homosexuality.
It is easier to hide a sexual preference then it is to hide your ethnicity, and while the attacks against homosexuals are literally horrendous, the evils ethnocentric mentality has always hurt more.
In the wake of the civil rights movement we have come a long way, but to say homosexuality has suffered more then certain races is pushing it imo. Homosexuals are suffering and we need to fix that,but yarace has always been our biggest leap to get over.

can you please read my post prior to this. He isn't saying we've had it worse. he's saying we've had it equal.