Discussion: Gay Rights II

[Addendum]

Awesome stuff hope you had fun, anyway your misinterpreting what I meant. When I stated act I meant been gay in general and acceptance of it.

While there are self-hating homosexuals, the rest of the homosexual community have accepted their being gay

[BlackLantern]

Holding hands and locking eyes for more than 2 minutes.

What if you don't do any of that and go right to the oral???

[Paradoxium]

LOL BlackLantern, nice last minute edit :lmao:

[The Senator]

What if you don't do any of that and go right to the oral???

Now that's what I call a good time :up:

[UltimateJustin]

This thread, having now reach the point of *too gay*, should be merged with the Batman III Title Suggestion thread.

[The Senator]

This thread, having now reach the point of *too gay*, should be merged with the Batman III Title Suggestion thread.

There's no such thing as "too gay."

[Franklin Richards]

There's no such thing as "too gay."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/AuntPetunia/1565.jpg


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Addendum]

There's no such thing as "too gay."

http://www.hahastop.com/pictures/This_Gay.htm

[Schlosser85]

There's no such thing as "too gay."

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm70/Schlosser85/Liberace.jpg

[Carcharodon]

This thread has taken a glorious turn. Epic.

[hippie_hunter]

There's no such thing as "too gay."

http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/images/gallery/chris-crocker-cries.jpg

[Schlosser85]

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm70/Schlosser85/EltonJohn.jpg

[Doomed_hero]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD52OlkKfNs

[The Senator]

http://anemicroyalty.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/boy_george_og_rosie_111679a.jpg

Wait... what's the point of this thread? :huh:

[spideyboy_1111]

Anarchy!? New low from Yes on 8 Leaders! | Action Alert
From No on Prop 8 | Don't Eliminate Marriage for Anyone
Today at 12:09pm
ACTION ALERT!

Governor Schwarzenegger and legislative leaders
under attack for wanting to overturn Prop 8

Dear Friends;

Our community and our supporters continue to be the victim of outrageous, relentless attacks by proponents of Prop 8.

Now they are claiming that Governor Schwarzenegger supports anarchy—anarchy—for saying that he hopes Prop 8 is overturned in court and for encouraging us to "never give up."

In a recent email urging supporters to attack the Governor for his comments, Tony Perkins and the Family Research Council had this to say:

"Since Election Day, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (R) has made statements supporting demonstrations against Proposition 8, and urging California 's Supreme Court to block the amendment's enforcement…Condoning street protests and supporting judicial activist scams to overturn a popularly approved state constitutional amendment approaches advocacy of anarchy. Gov. Schwarzenegger is playing a dangerous game, and it needs to stop. Now."

What needs to STOP NOW is the hateful rhetoric and continued assaults from the leadership of the Yes on 8 campaign who used lies and deceit to write discrimination into our constitution and eliminate our equality.

Email Governor Schwarzenegger, and the 44 members of the California Legislature who signed a friend of the court brief to overturn Prop 8. Encourage them to stand strong in the face of these outrageous attacks.

>> http://www.kintera.org/TR.asp?a=hlLUL9MXLqK2LpI&s=juI4JfNSLjLVKdOXJvF&m=jiJVLaPILfL4E

If you are registered with EQCA’s Action Center, reply to this email. Or register today at www.eqca.org/ActionCenter. Taking action is simple and free.

>> http://www.eqca.org/ActionCenter

Prop 8 must be overturned and we need to let the leaders who are standing with us know how much we appreciate their support.

The other side is flooding them with critical emails. It is up to each of us to make sure they get more emails from those who support equality than from those who continue to attack us.

Please, email our elected leaders who are standing with us today. And urge everyone you know to do so as well.

>> http://www.kintera.org/TR.asp?a=dhKMIXOHLmIWKfJ&s=juI4JfNSLjLVKdOXJvF&m=jiJVLaPILfL4E

In solidarity,

Geoff Kors
Executive Director
Equality California

-----


Wow... how stupid is this campaign? i mean seriously.. it's like the other day one of them commented on us as "rioting in the streets" last i checked rioting meant violence, breaking an entering, chaos, and stealing... ummm since when is marching down the street protesting a riot?

[spideyboy_1111]

Twins wont always have the same interactions as one another, one will experience something completly diffrent from the other at some point in life. So using twins as a reason to debunk the environmental theory doesnt hold up.

except for the fact majority of gay guys say they knew they were gay around the time of puberty... some don't realize it till later, but most pinpoint there curiosity beginning around that time. My point is there is no "set rules" for any of this, so stop looking for a definitive answer.

[spideyboy_1111]

Not only environmentally but interactions.

haha so wait wait, your telling me now depending on who you meet.. can make you gay? hahaha dude sorry but your soooo incredibly ignorant on the subject its not even funny. well actually it's pretty hilarious. Let me guess.. you've never had a close gay friend correct? (acquaintances don't count)

[Doomed_hero]

i dont know if my video from West Wing went through, but its point is you can't use the bible to jusitify hatred and take away right of homosexuals. it says you can't touch dead pig skin, can sell your daughter into slavery and not work on the sabbath. So tell me, if we use the bible to justify such hate, then why do we pick in choose. Why are we not trying to condemn football players? They are doing a act forbidden by the bible. Are they not as much offenders as homosexuals? Or why arent we going and searching for christians who are working the Sabbath and kill them. They are not really christians in your points either. Why dont we deny them rights? why dont we push for a law to punish them and football players?

[spideyboy_1111]

I agree but the concept of marriage was intended for a male and female union and has always been so, now me personally I dont mind the fact that gay people want in on the act. My only issue with it is that it should never ever take place within a church or any religion that claims the act is a sin, due to the contradictions.

See this is another pretty ignorant comment, people fear churches will be forced to wed gays, but guess what.. there not. Legally churches have the right to deny whoever they want. strait or gay. there are several churches though that have come out to say they would gladly bless a homosexual wedding. So if more churches change willingly to keep up with the times, awesome, but if not, then people can go and will go to the ones that do. Who wants to get married at a church that hates you anyway?

[spideyboy_1111]

The gay community assumed that "peoples better nature" would prevail...and were kicked in the junk relying on that....People, as a group, are scared, ignorant, and paranoid....as for this "nationwide" protest....Im sure the major cities have something going, but it's all quiet here in CT and the rest of New England...I think there is something planned for Boston and a small rally or something here in CT, probably in New Haven....but I have not heard or seen anything else....Hate might be your biggest obstacle, but apathy is a close second

Have you visited the website? the rally list is pretty large, hell in ohio (a state in which i thought at the most would have 2) is having 6 protests.

[Gilpesh]

I agree but the concept of marriage was intended for a male and female union and has always been so

Proof, or is this just the dreaded opinion as fact you keep yelling that other people are using?

[BlackLantern]

LOL BlackLantern, nice last minute edit :lmao:

I thought the censors would catch that....guess not....

[spideyboy_1111]

No it says its a sin.

do you eat pork? shrimp? or go into a building named after god or Christ?

[BlackLantern]

Have you visited the website? the rally list is pretty large, hell in ohio (a state in which i thought at the most would have 2) is having 6 protests.

2 here in Connecticut...one in New Haven, and one in Hartford, both at the respective City Halls....

[spideyboy_1111]

I cant claim to know the bible text for text but I am extremly certain you are wrong.

so you practice blind faith then?

[The Major]

While there are self-hating homosexuals, the rest of the homosexual community have accepted their being gay
They only hate themselves since they have been taught that being gay is a bad thing either from society or religion.

[spideyboy_1111]

How racist. News flash: the NAACP hasn't been relevant in the Black Community is YEARS, so why assume it speaks for them? And the only reason why the focus has been on the Mormon Church is because it is predominantly conservative, white, straight and male. You know that if the gay activists went after the Black Church, it'll turn ugly REAL quick.


O.

well yes, because things can be blown out of proportion really quick. I have nothing againt black people, i have problems with STUPID people. I can't stand ignorant white hicks as much as i can't stand ignorant blacks. Problem is, you can't insult that type of black without them screaming racist. There are plenty of respectable african-americans out there, some in which are my friends, who completely agree with me on that.

[spideyboy_1111]

a funny thing my cousin sent me.

10 Reasons Why Gay Marriage is Wrong...

1) Being gay is not natural.

And real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning, tattoos, piercings and silicon breasts...

2) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay.

In the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

3) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior.

People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract. Lamps are next.

4) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all;

Hence why women are still property, blacks still can’t marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

5) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed;

And we can’t let the sanctity of Britney Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage be destroyed.

6) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children.

So therefore, gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn’t be allowed to marry because our population isn’t out of control, our orphanages aren’t full yet, and the world needs more children.

7) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children,

Since, of course, straight parents only raise straight children.

8) Gay marriage is not supported by religion.

In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in America.

(Did I miss the lesson where Jesus says He hates gays?)

9) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home.

Which is exactly why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms.

Just like we haven’t adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, longer life spans, or mixed racial marriages.

[Anita18]

Have you visited the website? the rally list is pretty large, hell in ohio (a state in which i thought at the most would have 2) is having 6 protests.
I'm trying to plan for tomorrow's LA rally, and I think there will be lots of Metro Rail-ing and bus-sing, so hopefully I'll emerge from that unscathed. :funny:

But I think the biggest obstacle is my propensity to sleep in. :oldrazz:

[Ion Kenshin]

i will be at the new york one....its supposed to rain all day tho so boo for that

[The Major]

People who are against gay marriage:

Was MLK's dream for everyone or not?

Would you support a gay person for president?

[spideyboy_1111]

You gay people are going about this argument the wrong way. Here is how to win your argument, without being patronizing (i.e. equating gay marriage to the black Civil rights struggle). Here's how:

1) Go to the Mormons. Make a deal that says, "You support our cause, we will support polygamy".

2) Use the abortion rights argument: MY BODY, MY CHOICE.

3) Use the free speech argument.

4) If someone says what you do is a sin, say, proudly, my life is between MY god and me. YOU DO NOT have the right to interfere with MY faith (however you define it).

5) Lobby to "reform" marriage. It wasn't until the 19th century that "marriage" (which is not a part of the US Constitution) was defined. Call upon the congress to look at how marriage works in practice. Reduce marriage as a strictly ceremonial venture, conducted by priests, judges and sea captains. Create "household compacts" licensing, so that couples (gay or straight), siblings, friends. Create an actual license for this (like a drivers license card, complete with picture ID, one that can be shown to anyone for verification).

To win this, you have isolate the opposition through the use of coalition building. Find commonality across the board. DO NOT BE A HYPOCRITE, which means you have to accept the idea of polygamy amongst consenting ADULTS. If you do all that I suggest, gay marriage will not only be tolerated, but accepted.

This tape will self-destruct in...never mind. :cwink:

Good luck!

O.

1) the mormon church claims to no longer believe in polygamy.
2) yeah... hows that work? considering they don't believe that idea either
3) we have and are
4) we have and are
5) we have and are

[spideyboy_1111]

People rode dinosaurs....

So who's going to protests or rallies tomorrow?

o u know ill be there

[spideyboy_1111]

Um... the bible is either non-fiction or fiction.

and technically if one thing is indeed fiction (jonah and the whale for instance) then one non historical fact makes the whole book fiction (by definition) :yay:

[spideyboy_1111]

If find it extremly ironic how the people in support of gay marriages can openly mock and bash others religious belief but if someone was to make a crude statement about homosexuals I am sure everyone would be up in arms at that individual and he would be banned faster than he could type sorry.

One's a belief, the other is the way we ARE... something we can NOT CHANGE. you can help being a christian and forcing your beliefs on us. We can't help being gay.

[The Major]

and technically if one thing is indeed fiction (jonah and the whale for instance) then one non historical fact makes the whole book fiction (by definition) :yay:

It's up for the religious to prove God's existence to us not the other way around.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

[Anita18]

o u know ill be there
What should I do for a sign? Would I look really stupid walking around without one? Help me, I'm a rally virgin! :funny:

[spideyboy_1111]

I dont see how that can work, wait so you marry homosexuals on Saturday and then on Sunday call them sinners and tell them there is a place reserved for them in hell?

do you not understand that theres MANY different sects of the christian church? and the reason there are soooo many is because SOOOO MANY have different beliefs?

you have Lutheran, Catholic, Mormon, Evangelical, Baptist, etc... all of these are a part of Christianity.. yet the whole reason they exist is because they have different beliefs. SOME churches do not believe that homo-sexuality is a sin, others look over it and know god loves everyone, others call it a sin and condemn it.

[Oddzball]

So your issue seems to be that you dont want the majority voting on minority issues. What other rights would you restrict in voting?

Also, if the majority could never vote, wouldnt that mean that the minority would win every vote...ever?

The tyranny of the majority is a real issue. If 52% of the electorate says you should buy a car far too expensive for you to pay for without serious compromising your food and housing situation, you have every right to tell the majority of voters to go to hell.

Denying full legal rights to citizens A & B, while allowing it to C & D, is most certainly discrimination. The argument I've heard from Prop 8 supporters was "I don't think marriage should be between same sex couples". That person's opinion vs a gay couple's ability to function as a legal entity wrt medical treatments buying property etc. An opinion vs genuine harm to real people won out. It shouldn't have. Otherwise start paying for that car.

[spideyboy_1111]

2 here in Connecticut...one in New Haven, and one in Hartford, both at the respective City Halls....

good, almost all the protests 2morrow will be at a city hall :D

[spideyboy_1111]

What should I do for a sign? Would I look really stupid walking around without one? Help me, I'm a rally virgin! :funny:

you can always go with the classic "Welcome to california, where chickens have more rights then we do"

[Heretic]

You can carry a sign with a picture of my dad...who is straight and has divorced 5 times...

These rallies are a great thing, and if theres one in my area I'll go be a part of it.

Jjust as I predicted, there is a movement to revote on this issue in 2 years. At that time, black democrats will not be flocking to the polls, and therefore the vote has a much better chance of going the way it should have gone the first time. Fortunately, the republican leadership in the state has spoken out against the democratic fueled ban on civil rights and hopefully the republican vote added with the fair minded democrat vote will give gays the same right that everyone else enjoys. In other words, you dont need the courts...this will work itself out.

[spideyboy_1111]

You can carry a sign with a picture of my dad...who is straight and has divorced 5 times...

These rallies are a great thing, and if theres one in my area I'll go be a part of it.

Jjust as I predicted, there is a movement to revote on this issue in 2 years. At that time, black democrats will not be flocking to the polls, and therefore the vote has a much better chance of going the way it should have gone the first time. Fortunately, the republican leadership in the state has spoken out against the democratic fueled ban on civil rights and hopefully the republican vote added with the fair minded democrat vote will give gays the same right that everyone else enjoys. In other words, you dont need the courts...this will work itself out.

http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/?t=anon


if your in Detroit.. then here
http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/page/Michigan

[Heretic]

http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/?t=anon


if your in Detroit.. then here
http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/page/Michigan

There is one about 20 minutes from my house tomorrow. Despite the fact that I still believe that this is something we should allow to be worked out through states voting, I definitely believe in the rights of gays to get married, so I'll join the cause.

[spideyboy_1111]

There is one about 20 minutes from my house tomorrow. Despite the fact that I still believe that this is something we should allow to be worked out through states voting, I definitely believe in the rights of gays to get married, so I'll join the cause.

yay glad to have you.

I personally think at the very least, civil unions should be allowed in EVERY state... as should adoption. And i believe if it's left for states to decide on marriage then EVERY state must recognize a gay marriage if one has been married in another state or country (that allows it) and moves to one that does not perform gay marriages.

[Heretic]

yay glad to have you.

I personally think at the very least, civil unions should be allowed in EVERY state... as should adoption. And i believe if it's left for states to decide on marriage then EVERY state must recognize a gay marriage if one has been married in another state or country (that allows it) and moves to one that does not perform gay marriages.

Im not really down with forcing Nebraska to recognize what Utah does...but Im not sold entirely on that. They have to recognize straight marriages. Just seems to me that if one state legalizes marriage to a horse, I dont wnat my state having to deal with it after the fact (crazier things have happened...I believe there is one state that allows sex with animals). I thnk there are areas of compromise, and eventually all states will approve it anyway and Id rather people come around than forcing it down their throats with a judges ruling.

[spideyboy_1111]

Im not really down with forcing Nebraska to recognize what Utah does...but Im not sold entirely on that. They have to recognize straight marriages. Just seems to me that if one state legalizes marriage to a horse, I dont wnat my state having to deal with it after the fact (crazier things have happened...I believe there is one state that allows sex with animals). I thnk there are areas of compromise, and eventually all states will approve it anyway and Id rather people come around than forcing it down their throats with a judges ruling.

Well I think if your married in one state, i dont see why you suddenly shouldnt be in another. that's kinda messed up to me, were united states, not seperate countries. Horses cant get married... they can't sign the paper work :o

[Heretic]

Oh yeah...and one more thing about the rallies...

If these things turn into hundreds of naked people flaunting their sexuality and holding signs with hate speech towards religion, it will set the movement back many years. Id like to think that homosexuals could actually leave their sexuality at home for this, as the stakes are too high to be goofing around in a Liberace outfit and sparkle bombs.

[spideyboy_1111]

Oh yeah...and one more thing about the rallies...

If these things turn into hundreds of naked people flaunting their sexuality and holding signs with hate speech towards religion, it will set the movement back many years. Id like to think that homosexuals could actually leave their sexuality at home for this, as the stakes are too high to be goofing around in a Liberace outfit and sparkle bombs.

umm no one is naked.. this isn't gay pride.

religion though does play a point in it... so you might see some anti-mormonism.. and some seperation of church and state or signs like "keep your jesus off my penis" type stuff.. but ive really seen no direct hate to any religion other then mormonism.. but its not like everyone there feels hate torwards them or anything.

[Heretic]

umm no one is naked.. this isn't gay pride.

religion though does play a point in it... so you might see some anti-mormonism.. and some seperation of church and state or signs like "keep your jesus off my penis" type stuff.. but ive really seen no direct hate to any religion other then mormonism.. but its not like everyone there feels hate torwards them or anything.

Im not a religious guy (though i do firmly bellieve that God would find my blasphemy hilarious and give me a free pass into heaven) but to angrily mock a religion HURTS your cause. You should be trying to build bridges, not turn an entire block of the country against you. A Mormon may support your cause (theyve supported weirder stuff...like Mormonism!) but if they see those signs they will turn against you.

And I respect that this is not a gay pride event and instead a respectable rally...but seriously...it is a rare occasion when gays unite by the hundreds that you dont see some ridiculous stuff that should only be done indoors. Again, part of what has held back progress is that the gay community 9or members of it) shove their lifestyles in peoples faces, when really, the majority of the country really doesnt care what you do, they just dont want it in their faces.

[wiegeabo]

yay glad to have you.

I personally think at the very least, civil unions should be allowed in EVERY state... as should adoption. And i believe if it's left for states to decide on marriage then EVERY state must recognize a gay marriage if one has been married in another state or country (that allows it) and moves to one that does not perform gay marriages.


Well, I think it's section IV of the Constitution that says, essentially, each state must respect the laws of the other states.

For example, California law will not recognize the marriage of gays in other states. But there's huge contention that this is unconstitutional. Although I don't know if it's been challenged yet.

[spideyboy_1111]

Im not a religious guy (though i do firmly bellieve that God would find my blasphemy hilarious and give me a free pass into heaven) but to angrily mock a religion HURTS your cause. You should be trying to build bridges, not turn an entire block of the country against you. A Mormon may support your cause (theyve supported weirder stuff...like Mormonism!) but if they see those signs they will turn against you.

And I respect that this is not a gay pride event and instead a respectable rally...but seriously...it is a rare occasion when gays unite by the hundreds that you dont see some ridiculous stuff that should only be done indoors. Again, part of what has held back progress is that the gay community 9or members of it) shove their lifestyles in peoples faces, when really, the majority of the country really doesnt care what you do, they just dont want it in their faces.

It's a common way to take out hurt and pain at first though, it's not like everyone is holding those. Most signs with a religious tone are actually very respectable and make a good and very valid point.

and thats kinda generalizing.. which is kinda insulting, nothing i've seen period is anything that should be "kept in doors" and i was at a 2,000 + and a 12,000 + rallies. and so my surprise ive actually seen very few gays in drag. Excuse me? we shove our lifestyles in your faces? please.. you shove your religion down our throats... We don't shove anything down anyones face.. if your looking and have your mouth open then thats your fault, not ours.

[Heretic]

As I pointed out before, I remember a firefighters parade, and the local gay community demanded a gay firefighters parade...like fighting fires has anything at all to do with sexuality...

Denying the truth also will not help your cause. many gay people DO shove it in the communities face. Most people really dont give a darn about your sexuality...yet we continue to see the parades and rallies where offensive things are shown (and I have never in my life seen a straight pride parade where straight people flaunt their sexuality). You simply cannot possibly be honest if youre saying that youve never heard of a gay gathering that didnt get out of hand with the sexuality. Ive personally witnessed gay rallies where sex took place in front of children. I know, that isnt the leaders of the movement, thats individual idiots...but you as a member of the movement should speak out against such behaviour to your community instead of denying it ever happens.

Do religious people force their will upon others? SURE! Thats the point! Muslims would kill you and your rally friends...even a straight guy like me for supporting you! The extreme corners of religions always confuse outreach with force...it isnt right...

[spideyboy_1111]

As I pointed out before, I remember a firefighters parade, and the local gay community demanded a gay firefighters parade...like fighting fires has anything at all to do with sexuality...

Denying the truth also will not help your cause. many gay people DO shove it in the communities face. Most people really dont give a darn about your sexuality...yet we continue to see the parades and rallies where offensive things are shown (and I have never in my life seen a straight pride parade where straight people flaunt their sexuality). You simply cannot possibly be honest if youre saying that youve never heard of a gay gathering that didnt get out of hand with the sexuality. Ive personally witnessed gay rallies where sex took place in front of children. I know, that isnt the leaders of the movement, thats individual idiots...but you as a member of the movement should speak out against such behaviour to your community instead of denying it ever happens.

Do religious people force their will upon others? SURE! Thats the point! Muslims would kill you and your rally friends...even a straight guy like me for supporting you! The extreme corners of religions always confuse outreach with force...it isnt right...

They wanted a firetruck on loan so they can have hot guys dancing on it in the parade.. nothing is wrong with that when it's there parade. It's not for you.

ok please tell me exactly how we "shove it" in your face? and please tell me how it is "most of us" that do.. Gay pride is an event to celebrate our sexual freedom and rights. Sure i agree some stuff is a bit much, but the whole point is the fact we CAN. Sorry but were not shoving anything in your face. if your watching or going to one, then your being put in that situation, not us putting things in your face. And pride i agree can be very disgusting at times.. some look at it as a sex-fest.. and i dont agree with that at all.. But please do not generalize and please do not say "most" just because those people scream attention most. Blaming it on the few, is just like blaming ignorant, uneducated blacks and saying there the majority... it's not right. Theres always a few rotten apples in a bunch. Please do not generalize us.

Hey all im saying is, nothing should be forced upon anyone. A way of life should never be forced period. Let people live there life and if someone doesnt like it, shut up about it.

[Heretic]

Why do some gays feel the need to have a gay firefighters parade? Isnt being a firefighter prideful enough without bringing sexuality into it? Is a gay firefighter different from a straight firefighter? Straight firefighters believe you are the same...do gay firefighters believe they are seperate but equal???

Anything that is done on public streets would be shoving it in the publics face. Why do you need parades on public streets to celebrate sexuality? Its IN PUBLIC. Keep your sexuality in the bedroom (and that goes for straight people as well...). You have the freedom to have sex with each other...who freaking cares??? Heres a newsflash...straight people arent PROUD to have sex with each other. They enjoy it, they do it when they can, end of story. Furthermore, we really arent impressed with the fact that gay people have sex with each other. The only people who really seem to care about the fact that you have sex is gay people themselves, and they are so proud of it that they take to the streets by the hundreds and publicly display their sexuality. That is not right, no matter if youre straight or gay...

Defending deviant behavior by some on your side will not get you any closer to having mass public approval.

I just dont get why people on both sides of most issues feel compelled to defend every action done by anyone on their side.

[The Major]

The gays are proud about their sexuality because society still frowns on it.

Displaying would be a celebration of it and rebelling against their oppressors. That's just my perspective, I could be wrong.

If it wasn't a big deal they wouldn't do it IMO.

Heterosexuals don't do this since it is accepted without question. Some do boast about their sexual behavior, too.

[cerealkiller182]

Why do some gays feel the need to have a gay firefighters parade? Isnt being a firefighter prideful enough without bringing sexuality into it? Is a gay firefighter different from a straight firefighter? Straight firefighters believe you are the same...do gay firefighters believe they are seperate but equal???

Anything that is done on public streets would be shoving it in the publics face. Why do you need parades on public streets to celebrate sexuality? Its IN PUBLIC. Keep your sexuality in the bedroom (and that goes for straight people as well...). You have the freedom to have sex with each other...who freaking cares??? Heres a newsflash...straight people arent PROUD to have sex with each other. They enjoy it, they do it when they can, end of story. Furthermore, we really arent impressed with the fact that gay people have sex with each other. The only people who really seem to care about the fact that you have sex is gay people themselves, and they are so proud of it that they take to the streets by the hundreds and publicly display their sexuality. That is not right, no matter if youre straight or gay...

Defending deviant behavior by some on your side will not get you any closer to having mass public approval.

I just dont get why people on both sides of most issues feel compelled to defend every action done by anyone on their side.

When it comes to gay pride parades, I would think that the sentiment of being yourself in public without fear of prosecution would have deeper meaning to heterosexuals if they were ever prosecuted for their actions. Think about the 60s hippies celebrating their freedoms, including their sexual awareness, an issue that was taboo at the time.

[Heretic]

The gays are proud about their sexuality because society still frowns on it.

Displaying would be a celebration of it and rebelling against their oppressors. That's just my perspective, I could be wrong.

If it wasn't a big deal they wouldn't do it IMO.

Heterosexuals don't do this since it is accepted without question. Some do boast about their sexual behavior, too.


Being gay is not a big deal. No one really cares anymore other than the far right religious folks, and its not even most of them.


EDIT: Though the fact that people voted to not let them marry kind of proves me wrong on that.

[spideyboy_1111]

Why do some gays feel the need to have a gay firefighters parade? Isnt being a firefighter prideful enough without bringing sexuality into it? Is a gay firefighter different from a straight firefighter? Straight firefighters believe you are the same...do gay firefighters believe they are seperate but equal???

Anything that is done on public streets would be shoving it in the publics face. Why do you need parades on public streets to celebrate sexuality? Its IN PUBLIC. Keep your sexuality in the bedroom (and that goes for straight people as well...). You have the freedom to have sex with each other...who freaking cares??? Heres a newsflash...straight people arent PROUD to have sex with each other. They enjoy it, they do it when they can, end of story. Furthermore, we really arent impressed with the fact that gay people have sex with each other. The only people who really seem to care about the fact that you have sex is gay people themselves, and they are so proud of it that they take to the streets by the hundreds and publicly display their sexuality. That is not right, no matter if youre straight or gay...

Defending deviant behavior by some on your side will not get you any closer to having mass public approval.

I just dont get why people on both sides of most issues feel compelled to defend every action done by anyone on their side.

I think your overlooking it and taking it way to seriously. It's just fun. They might not be wanting literally gay fire fighters sure they'd take them if the gay fire fighters wanted (and yeah if they were simply wanting gay fire fighters in the parade then they are celebrating gay fire fighters, which is awesome). I don't know the situation, if they were wanting a fire truck for the parade, with random guys dressed as fire fighters then it's all in good fun, but if they were wanting the cities firefighters to ride the truck, who are actually gay firefighters, then that's prideful. there celebrating gay firefighters. Just like women could celebrate a career position they normally couldn't have. There not discriminating against regular firefighters, pride is about celebrating homosexuality. So there celebrating THOSE WHO ARE GAY. So it'd be awkward to have straight firemen in a gay pride parade.

Most gay pride events take place in a highly populated gay area. ones that take place in highly public areas where its much more "public" are usually much more toned down. But if it's in a highly gay area there usually able to get away with stuff, do to "gay areas" typically being there "home" or safe haven.

your a very conflicting person... you say your routing for us yet you don't seem to understand anything about who or what we are as a community, and seem very discriminatory over it. Your generalizing, stereo typing, and i'm actually starting to find you quite offensive. Since your generalizing and are a white strait man and think it's fine to do so... i guess it's fair for me to assume that all white strait men are dogs? members of the KKK, rednecks, love nascar, and enjoy scratching there balls in public and love to beat there wives?

[spideyboy_1111]

The gays are proud about their sexuality because society still frowns on it.

Displaying would be a celebration of it and rebelling against their oppressors. That's just my perspective, I could be wrong.

If it wasn't a big deal they wouldn't do it IMO.

Heterosexuals don't do this since it is accepted without question. Some do boast about their sexual behavior, too.

tell me about it... im living with a strait guy right now whos 28, i never talk about my sex life and all he does is spout about how he screwed some bimbo.. when ever he comes home... and gives me way too graphic detail. im like DUDE NO ONE CARES.

[Addendum]

I didn't know Memphis was having a protest in support of overturning Prop 8 later today. If I can get off work in time, I'll go.

While I'm not gay, I am against any discrimination

[Anita18]

tell me about it... im living with a strait guy right now whos 28, i never talk about my sex life and all he does is spout about how he screwed some bimbo.. when ever he comes home... and gives me way too graphic detail. im like DUDE NO ONE CARES.
:lmao: He's definitely trying way too hard to compensate for...something. :cwink:

My sister just caught me on Gmail chat, with "ARE YOU GOING TO THE PROTEST TOMORROW MORNING? the correct answer is yes of course"

So now I'll have to go and come back with pictures. :oldrazz: She says she's created a new beautiful poster. I have yet to make mine, but I only have a small piece of foamboard with me so I'll have to make do with what I have...

She's been sending me pics of snarky No on Prop 8 signs, but I want to keep it more positive. Once you get too angry, people stop taking you seriously. I have lots of experience seeing that here. :cwink:

[spideyboy_1111]

I didn't know Memphis was having a protest in support of overturning Prop 8 later today. If I can get off work in time, I'll go.

While I'm not gay, I am against any discrimination

yay, glad to have your support :) bring as many as you can too.. the best way we can show we mean buisness is more support :D

[spideyboy_1111]

:lmao: He's definitely trying way too hard to compensate for...something. :cwink:

My sister just caught me on Gmail chat, with "ARE YOU GOING TO THE PROTEST TOMORROW MORNING? the correct answer is yes of course"

So now I'll have to go and come back with pictures. :oldrazz: She says she's created a new beautiful poster. I have yet to make mine, but I only have a small piece of foamboard with me so I'll have to make do with what I have...

She's been sending me pics of snarky No on Prop 8 signs, but I want to keep it more positive. Once you get too angry, people stop taking you seriously. I have lots of experience seeing that here. :cwink:

you should totally try to find me, not sure if it will be even possible.. but yeah... haha, i need a new sign :( mine got lefted

[chaseter]

You all have my support but no protests here so sorry. Prop 8 is hate and you all will have your day soon.

Also, jman...I understand your avatar but why does it have to be so stereotypical? A bunch of shirtless, buff, sweaty men working out together?

[xisaacx]

If gays pay taxes like everyone else let them do what they want, isnt denying them rights to marriage against the constitution? If the KKK can throw their own parades and march down the streets why in display of freedom of speech why cant gays do what they want?

[The Lizard]

I feel inclined to repost this...

There's a couple of hurtles that this movement has to overcome if it's going to insist on comparing itself to women's voting rights and the Civil Rights movement:

1. There were a lot more women and African Americans numbers-wise than there are gays. After this passing of Prop 8, the impression has been re-enforced that the GLBT community is a very loud minority, but still a small one.

2. The Civil Rights movement built on the fact that blacks had been slaves in the past and were suffering economically and educationally as a result of segregation and racism later on. However, the modern public sees gays as mostly well-off, well-educated professionals who easily mobilize support for themselves. Not quite the downtrodden victims that blacks were in the '50s and '60s.

[Charlie No-One]

The issue itself, even though one group suffered more than the other, is still comparable and just as much as a problem legally. People are being treated as second class citizens.

[The Lizard]

The issue itself, even though one group suffered more than the other, is still comparable and just as much as a problem legally. People are being treated as second class citizens.

Then the gay rights movement needs to convince the general public of that. Outreach to groups traditionally seen as hostile to the gay cause (religious community, African-American community, etc) is possible.

[cerealkiller182]

What do you think they are doing? Just sitting around the house feeling sorry for themselves.

[BlackLantern]

What do you think they are doing? Just sitting around the house feeling sorry for themselves.

No, but I think some are just assuming people are going to start accepting them overnight....

[The Lizard]

What do you think they are doing? Just sitting around the house feeling sorry for themselves.

Right now, I'm seeing a lot of angry protesting (against "acceptable" targets, of course) and moping. Heretic kind of got it right when he said that the anti-Prop 8 crowd just assumed they would win based on activity in their own communities, without really pleading their case to the rest of the more conservative population.

I still think a win for gay rights can come out of this, but creating a perception-shift in the rest of the country is what's needed, and that takes finesse.

[The Major]

Right now, I'm seeing a lot of angry protesting (against "acceptable" targets, of course) and moping. Heretic kind of got it right when he said that the anti-Prop 8 crowd just assumed they would win based on activity in their own communities, without really pleading their case to the rest of the more conservative population.

I still think a win for gay rights can come out of this, but creating a perception-shift in the rest of the country is what's needed, and that takes finesse.

Agreed.

[hippie_hunter]

Right now, I'm seeing a lot of angry protesting (against "acceptable" targets, of course) and moping. Heretic kind of got it right when he said that the anti-Prop 8 crowd just assumed they would win based on activity in their own communities, without really pleading their case to the rest of the more conservative population.

I still think a win for gay rights can come out of this, but creating a perception-shift in the rest of the country is what's needed, and that takes finesse.
Agreed

[Marx]

Right now, I'm seeing a lot of angry protesting (against "acceptable" targets, of course) and moping. Heretic kind of got it right when he said that the anti-Prop 8 crowd just assumed they would win based on activity in their own communities, without really pleading their case to the rest of the more conservative population.

I still think a win for gay rights can come out of this, but creating a perception-shift in the rest of the country is what's needed, and that takes finesse.

Agreed.

Agreed

You would be protesting and 'moping' too if you pured so much energy into something only to fail. There was alot of outreach and activity going on to stop the passage of Prop 8. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough to counter the scare tactics and distortions coming from the other side. (As I have now said several times. I feel like a broken record.) You can only do so much. What else would you all have done aside from what was already done to stop this from passing?

[BlackLantern]

You would be protesting and 'moping' too if you pured so much energy into something only to fail. There was alot of outreach and activity going on to stop the passage of Prop 8. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough to counter the scare tactics and distortions coming from the other side. (As I have now said several times. I feel like a broken record.) You can only do so much. What else would you all have done aside from what was already done to stop this from passing?

Apparently not enough "outreach"...I read an interview on DailyKos, I think where an anti 8 advocate was asked why they did not go into the black communities, namely the churches...the response was "If we did that, we would get thrown out of their churches"

[Marx]

Apparently not enough "outreach"...I read an interview on DailyKos, I think where an anti 8 advocate was asked why they did not go into the black communities, namely the churches...the response was "If we did that, we would get thrown out of their churches"

And I can't blame them for that. There is no way that I would go anywhere near a church that is preaching hate and intolerance and expect to gain any ground. I used to go round and round with a very religious girl and I got no where. No matter how reasonable or logical my points were, she always reverted to 'I believe what's in the bible and that's the only reason I need'. There are some people that are not even worth the effort. You are wasting your breath and time.

[The Senator]

Right now, I'm seeing a lot of angry protesting (against "acceptable" targets, of course) and moping. Heretic kind of got it right when he said that the anti-Prop 8 crowd just assumed they would win based on activity in their own communities, without really pleading their case to the rest of the more conservative population.

I still think a win for gay rights can come out of this, but creating a perception-shift in the rest of the country is what's needed, and that takes finesse.

The gay population did not expect the Mormon church to pour millions of dollars into this campaign. The church did this at the last minute, too, and because they already had an insurmountable financial infrastructure, it became very difficult for the gay community to raise enough money to promote their cause with three weeks left in the effort. So we relied on grassroots campaigning in areas of the state where we thought we could actually make a difference. But how can you compete with a media campaign targeting every single household in the state with ads comparing homosexuality to bestiality, or campaigns declaring that we must "SAVE THE CHILDREN!!!" from those sinful queers and their agenda to teach children about gay marriage?

We have a right to protest, by the way, and it is merited: Proposition 8 is the first amendment in this country to take rights away from the gay community. It was a revision to the constitution as well, which means it never should have gone DIRECTLY to the voters. It should have gone in front of the state legislature before ever making it to the polls. Moreover, it puts the fate of 18,000 couples who have married since this summer in limbo, considering there was no explicit mention of what would happen to them.

So, really, any claim that we are just "protesting and moping" and we need "finesse" to win over the majority is absolute nonsense. We were the ones with the considerable advantage, until the Mormon church and the Knights of Columbus forfeited "finesse" and "acceptable behavior" on their own by running a filthy campaign against homosexuals in California. The gay community is not backing down from this fight, as evident by the hundreds of protests occurring across the country today. And hopefully, this proposition will be overturned by the California Supreme Court in the coming months due to its obvious legal complications.

[The Senator]

No, but I think some are just assuming people are going to start accepting them overnight....

Couldn't be any further from the truth, but whatever...

[Heretic]

To Spideyboy:

Im not conflicted at all. I support the rights of gay people to marry each other. They are human beings and deserve equal rights to any other american citizen. However, i DO have a problem when those rallies turn into sex parties with nudity and open sex in public, and as I said earlier, I once attended one where gays openly had sex in front of children and NO ONE seemed to have any problem with it. In order for our mutual movement to succeed, the movement for equal rights, we have to condemn deviant behavior that hurts our cause. I am prepeared to do that. Saying that sex should not be happening on our city ctreets is not anti gay at all...it is pro decency. In my old hometown there is an area where in broad daylight women flash their breasts and all sorts of chaos goes down (in certain times of year). This activity happens in front of children and I am equally opposed to that (and the other straight people not speaking out against it) as I am with this.

As far as comparing the KKK to gay rallies...the KKK have the right to express their opinion, as do homosexuals. However, when EITHER breaks the law during their rallies then they should be shut down. The KKK are also their own worst enemies since they have the worst PR campaign Ive ever seen.

[Addendum]

Because nothing turns people on like a good protest

[Heretic]

The gay population did not expect the Mormon church to pour millions of dollars into this campaign. The church did this at the last minute, too, and because they already had an insurmountable financial infrastructure, it became very difficult for the gay community to raise enough money to promote their cause with three weeks left in the effort. So we relied on grassroots campaigning in areas of the state where we thought we could actually make a difference. But how can you compete with a media campaign targeting every single household in the state with ads comparing homosexuality to bestiality, or campaigns declaring that we must "SAVE THE CHILDREN!!!" from those sinful queers and their agenda to teach children about gay marriage?

We have a right to protest, by the way, and it is merited: Proposition 8 is the first amendment in this country to take rights away from the gay community. It was a revision to the constitution as well, which means it never should have gone DIRECTLY to the voters. It should have gone in front of the state legislature before ever making it to the polls. Moreover, it puts the fate of 18,000 couples who have married since this summer in limbo, considering there was no explicit mention of what would happen to them.

So, really, any claim that we are just "protesting and moping" and we need "finesse" to win over the majority is absolute nonsense. We were the ones with the considerable advantage, until the Mormon church and the Knights of Columbus forfeited "finesse" and "acceptable behavior" on their own by running a filthy campaign against homosexuals in California. The gay community is not backing down from this fight, as evident by the hundreds of protests occurring across the country today. And hopefully, this proposition will be overturned by the California Supreme Court in the coming months due to its obvious legal complications.

Its not often that Democrats get the chance to complain about being outspent.

Look...McCain lost because he failed to deliever his message in a way that connected with voters, not because Obama outspent him 8 to 1. Your...OUR...side lost because the pro gay marriage crowd was lazy and didnt bother to reach out to new people. My GUESS is that the gay community didnt bother trying to appeal to republicans or religious people because...well...often liberal groups just see republicans and christians as the evil enemy that isnt worth the effort. Blacks were ignored because...I dont know...maybe you assumed that since they would vote for Obama then they would blindly vote for all liberal issues.

This is an important battle. This is about equality in a country that was supposedly founded upon equality. Gay marriage is a milestone in human history, and its something we have to fight for...not just sit back and hope for the best on. These protest rallies are a good start...it will hopefully energize the public into taking DAILY action. Not attacking the religious, not blaming republicans (when republicans are on your side, and the democratic vote was not). Its time to rationally, intelligently and patiently go out and win the hearts and minds of the american people.

[Heretic]

Because nothing turns people on like a good protest

Id like to think that by the end of today, we dont see a single video of gay marriage supporters doing indecent things in the name of protest.

[The Major]

Look...McCain lost because he failed to deliever his message in a way that connected with voters, not because Obama outspent him 8 to 1. Y.

That was part of his why he succeeded, just not all of it.

Obama had a relevant, on message campaign which exploited today's technology and culture like none before. It was flawlessly executed at every step.

McCain never knew what hit him.

[Marx]

Its not often that Democrats get the chance to complain about being outspent.

Look...McCain lost because he failed to deliever his message in a way that connected with voters, not because Obama outspent him 8 to 1. Your...OUR...side lost because the pro gay marriage crowd was lazy and didnt bother to reach out to new people. My GUESS is that the gay community didnt bother trying to appeal to republicans or religious people because...well...often liberal groups just see republicans and christians as the evil enemy that isnt worth the effort. Blacks were ignored because...I dont know...maybe you assumed that since they would vote for Obama then they would blindly vote for all liberal issues.

This is an important battle. This is about equality in a country that was supposedly founded upon equality. Gay marriage is a milestone in human history, and its something we have to fight for...not just sit back and hope for the best on. These protest rallies are a good start...it will hopefully energize the public into taking DAILY action. Not attacking the religious, not blaming republicans (when republicans are on your side, and the democratic vote was not). Its time to rationally, intelligently and patiently go out and win the hearts and minds of the american people.

See post above.

[Heretic]

That was part of his why he succeeded, just not all of it.

Obama had a relevant, on message campaign which exploited today's technology and culture like none before. It was flawlessly executed at every step.

McCain never knew what hit him.

I agree, except that I think the Biden choice was the sole misstep that stumbled over and over. Not that it really mattered in the end, but Biden was not a smart choice as far as elections go. He'll help with running the government, but didnt help win the election.

[Marx]

I agree, except that I think the Biden choice was the sole misstep that stumbled over and over. Not that it really mattered in the end, but Biden was not a smart choice as far as elections go. He'll help with running the government, but didnt help win the election.

:huh:

Biden helped win over voters that Obama couldn't. Just because Biden isn't Hillary Clinton doesn't mean that he didn't pull in the numbers.

[The Senator]

Its not often that Democrats get the chance to complain about being outspent.

Look...McCain lost because he failed to deliever his message in a way that connected with voters, not because Obama outspent him 8 to 1. Your...OUR...side lost because the pro gay marriage crowd was lazy and didnt bother to reach out to new people. My GUESS is that the gay community didnt bother trying to appeal to republicans or religious people because...well...often liberal groups just see republicans and christians as the evil enemy that isnt worth the effort. Blacks were ignored because...I dont know...maybe you assumed that since they would vote for Obama then they would blindly vote for all liberal issues.

This is an important battle. This is about equality in a country that was supposedly founded upon equality. Gay marriage is a milestone in human history, and its something we have to fight for...not just sit back and hope for the best on. These protest rallies are a good start...it will hopefully energize the public into taking DAILY action. Not attacking the religious, not blaming republicans (when republicans are on your side, and the democratic vote was not). Its time to rationally, intelligently and patiently go out and win the hearts and minds of the american people.

That is utter nonsense. Polls released five weeks before the Mormon church began dumping millions of dollars into the "Vote Yes" campaign showed the proposition being defeated by double-digits. The GLBT community DID reach out to a number of voters who would have been critical to this amendment's defeat: African Americans, Latinos, and independent voters. However, the first two groups of voters tend to be very religious on the whole. Both groups would not have led to this amendment's defeat, which is why we stopped courting their support early in the game. If you confront a group of people who will overwhelmingly support the other side, then there is no reason to continue to lobby for their support when there is an even bigger group of voters to target. So we spent more time confronting independent voters than minority groups, because their support appeared as though it would be crucial for victory.

Then came the Mormons, the Knights of Columbus, and Domino's Pizza (!) to pour millions of dollars into a last-minute, statewide ad campaign which completely crushed every single advancement we had made on the ground in California. The polls quickly tied one week before the election. Still, our only hope was amongst independent voters... polls showed that 60% of African Americans had planned to vote YES, while a similar number of Latinos had pledged to vote the same... if we could make up enough ground with independents, we could have won.

But one thing occurred which we didn't expect, and which we couldn't avoid: Minority turnout surpassed independent turnout in California, percentage-wise. And ethnic minorities were ultimately the ones who helped pass this. The margin of victory was slim-- 4 percentage points-- which shows that our efforts among independents WERE fruitful, if the end result did not match what we had hoped would come. As is the case with every single campaign in this country, we targeted a group of possible supporters we felt would fly us to victory, rather than focusing on groups which were not likely to help our efforts in the least.

This had NOTHING to do with a lack of outreach, and the fact that you are telling me this is the case is insulting to my intelligence. Then again, you most likely haven't dealt with this campaign AT ALL aside from a few articles you have read on the internet and conclusions you have pulled entirely out of thin air, so I'm not surprised. It had EVERYTHING to do with who had more money and resources, as does EVERY single campaign. It had EVERYTHING to do with a last minute influx of ad buys in major cities such as LA and San Diego on behalf of the "Vote Yes" forces. It had EVERYTHING to do with pre-existing bigotry on behalf of EVERY voter who had voted against it, being fueled by the money and attention drawn from the "Vote Yes" side of the campaign.

Furthermore, I would like to ask you stop generalizing everything I have written into a "Republicans are evil" or "Religion is evil" mentality. I have never once blamed a party for this amendment's defeat, and the blame I am bestowing on the religious community is quite simple: They put the money into this, they had more publicity, they won. Not to mention the hypocrisy seeping from every open orifice of the Mormon church on this.

This is a battle which will continue for a long time, and my only hope is that the California State Supreme Court will realize that the rights of a minority group should not be left in the hands of a better-funded, better-organized majority. Gay marriage should be entirely left to the courts, not the narrow, uninformed minds which more often than not flock to the polls like blind sheep being led to the slaughterhouse.

[Heretic]

See post above.

I can think of many, many things I would have done differently if I were in California and on the team to help keep marriage legal. Say what you will, the outreach did not reach beyond your comfort zone.

I'll equate it to my old job running street teams for a major record label. I would send out all the stickers and promo cds and waste tons of money, and then while on tour, Id se the street teamers passing out the promo products IN LINE while waiting to get into THAT BANDS concert. Why are you wasting our promotion buget giving away materials to people who already suppprt the band?? Why not grow a set and get out there and try to win over some new people?

The gay community just did not have the grass roots outreach. They simply tried to motivate their faithful, and it wasnt enough.

[Marx]

I can think of many, many things I would have done differently if I were in California and on the team to help keep marriage legal. Say what you will, the outreach did not reach beyond your comfort zone.

I'll equate it to my old job running street teams for a major record label. I would send out all the stickers and promo cds and waste tons of money, and then while on tour, Id se the street teamers passing out the promo products IN LINE while waiting to get into THAT BANDS concert. Why are you wasting our promotion buget giving away materials to people who already suppprt the band?? Why not grow a set and get out there and try to win over some new people?

The gay community just did not have the grass roots outreach. They simply tried to motivate their faithful, and it wasnt enough.

I disagree. There is a big difference between promoting a band, and a lifestyle.

[Heretic]

:huh:

Biden helped win over voters that Obama couldn't. Just because Biden isn't Hillary Clinton doesn't mean that he didn't pull in the numbers.

He didnt pull in the numbers. Hillary was not the only good potential pick...but Biden wasnt a good one...and his weekly gaffs werent exactly helpful either.

[Heretic]

I disagree. There is a big difference between promoting a band, and a lifestyle.

Not in this case there isnt. The gay community organized and promoted its cause to the people who are already most sympathetic to their cause. Thats not how you promote anything. You know certain people will turn out, so you inform them of the vote and then draft them to go out and win NEW people. Promote to conservatives, promote to religious people....heck, play dirty and play off of peoples disliking of the dirty tricks used by the mormons. You cant realy on just your faithful to get out the vote. Thee results are in...and I am right...a failure to properly win over independent minds is what caused you to lose.

[The Senator]

I personally do not believe that Biden had any effect on Obama's win. This election was entirely about Barack Obama, and people voted for Obama solely because they supported him. I'm certain Biden drew in a few voters who were on the fence, and the polls indicate that the selection of Sarah Palin as McCain's running mate harmed McCain amongst the demographics which went for Obama... but I do not think the VP selection mattered much in the end.

NOW... there is a Joe Biden thread, as well as an Obama thread... and I would prefer this silly debate meanders over there instead of here...

[The Major]

but I do not think the VP selection mattered much in the end.


It did matter, just not for Obama.

Palin alienated many people from voting for McCain IMO.

[wiegeabo]

I personally do not believe that Biden had any effect on Obama's win. This election was entirely about Barack Obama, and people voted for Obama solely because they supported him. I'm certain Biden drew in a few voters who were on the fence, and the polls indicate that the selection of Sarah Palin as McCain's running mate harmed McCain amongst the demographics which went for Obama... but I do not think the VP selection mattered much in the end.

NOW... there is a Joe Biden thread, as well as an Obama thread... and I would prefer this silly debate meanders over there instead of here...

That's about how it happened over here. When Biden was chosen, everyone was "Who the hell is Biden?" And Obama lost a few points. And when McCain chose Palin, everyone loved it, and his popularity went up quite a bit. At that point, it was anybody's race.

Then, as time went on, Palin fell out of favor. And Biden really didn't make much of a splash, which was a good thing. Palin ended up weakening McCain's campaign, while Biden's experience was seen as something that would offset Obama's inexperience, boosting them up in the polls.

That might not have been the case everywhere, but in my area, and from other reports I saw, that was happening.

[Heretic]

I personally do not believe that Biden had any effect on Obama's win. This election was entirely about Barack Obama, and people voted for Obama solely because they supported him. I'm certain Biden drew in a few voters who were on the fence, and the polls indicate that the selection of Sarah Palin as McCain's running mate harmed McCain amongst the demographics which went for Obama... but I do not think the VP selection mattered much in the end.

NOW... there is a Joe Biden thread, as well as an Obama thread... and I would prefer this silly debate meanders over there instead of here...

You said above that elections are decided upon who has the most money...and the mormons beat the gay marriage movement because of cash. Therefore, it is ssafe to assume that Obama beat McCain because he had more money, not because he had a better message.

As far as insulting your movement...of course i had little to do with it...i live on the east coast, so of course I wasnt hitting the california streets with flyers. However, I think to just say "we were outspent" is wrong. Obama BEAT MCCain, and he would have if McCain had ten times as much money. He just had a better message. The gay right movement had a far better message and still lost. You want to blame dirty tricks by Mormons? Go right ahead...negative ads do work and probably had an impact...which is why the work needs to start NOW so you can gain momentum for next time. In a month I expect professional, ethical steps to be taken by the pro gay marriage movement so that theey can lock in a bigger number by the time the scare tactics come back around.

[The Senator]

You said above that elections are decided upon who has the most money...and the mormons beat the gay marriage movement because of cash. Therefore, it is ssafe to assume that Obama beat McCain because he had more money, not because he had a better message.

As far as insulting your movement...of course i had little to do with it...i live on the east coast, so of course I wasnt hitting the california streets with flyers. However, I think to just say "we were outspent" is wrong. Obama BEAT MCCain, and he would have if McCain had ten times as much money. He just had a better message. The gay right movement had a far better message and still lost. You want to blame dirty tricks by Mormons? Go right ahead...negative ads do work and probably had an impact...which is why the work needs to start NOW so you can gain momentum for next time. In a month I expect professional, ethical steps to be taken by the pro gay marriage movement so that theey can lock in a bigger number by the time the scare tactics come back around.

No, I believe that Obama won because he had the most money. He never would have been able to sell himself in some of the states he won if he didn't. North Carolina? Virginia? Indiana? Hell, he even came close in Montana and Georgia-- all five of those states were lost by Kerry in 2004 by double-digit margins.

His financial status allowed him to drum up grassroots support in states he very well should have lost. McCain, by comparison, was unable to defend himself in Obama's new territory because he didn't have the money to compete in expensive ad markets in Virginia, North Carolina, and Indiana. He didn't have the money to build an expansive campaign infrastructure with roots in all fifty states. He didn't have the money to air a 30-minute biography on three major news networks.

The presidential race came down to money. Prop 8 came down to money. The sides which poured the most money into building an expansive campaign infrastructure won in both cases, and the message of the campaigns truly were secondary.

BUT... because you believe it all came down to "message"... I would be pretty compelled to vote against gay marriage if it led to legalized incest and bestiality... which was a part of the Mormon Church's message...

[Heretic]

Of course The Mormons said that stuff...ts what they do. Its to be expected that bigots will always raise their heads (Im a little surprised that the KKK stayed mostly quiet regarding Obama). The Mormons have a bit of an off center sexual history as well, so thats kind of the pot calling the kettle gay. The Mormons message somehow...inexplicably...beat out the very basic message of equal rights. I really dont blame anyone for being surprised that bigotry won out in 2008, especially when the theme of the election was overcoming bigotry.

By the way, I ALMOST wore an Uncle Sam outfit to the rally, but opted against it.

[The Major]

Obama's going to be bring the worse out of white supremacist groups in his presidency.

They may swell up again but I don't think they'll have the numbers during their peak since the world is more PC.

That's the down side to Obama's win.

But they'd be crazy to go after him.

On the other hand their reappearance would make them easier for the authorities to catch.

[Heretic]

There is no reason for authorities to "catch" white supremacists. They have the right to speak their beliefs. If they arent breaking the law then theres no reason to arrest them, though for big brother reasons, it may be a good idea to know who the power players in the movement are.

[The Major]

There is no reason for authorities to "catch" white supremacists. They have the right to speak their beliefs.

Speak, yes.

But these aren't just chess clubs.

They're domestic terrorists.

If they arent breaking the law then theres no reason to arrest them, though for big brother reasons, it may be a good idea to know who the power players in the movement are.

I'm sure the government knows who the power players are.

They do keep tabs on them. Or they used to, any way.

[Heretic]

My dad was a member of the KKK, so I know a little about what they are capable of...but as far as organizing a rally, that is within their rights as citizens until the govrnment shuts them down, which apparently they either lack the evidence or will to do.

[The Major]

My dad was a member of the KKK, so I know a little about what they are capable of...but as far as organizing a rally, that is within their rights as citizens until the govrnment shuts them down, which apparently they either lack the evidence or will to do.

Do you don't consider the Klan to be terrorists?

[Heretic]

Do you don't consider the Klan to be terrorists?

Do I???? Absolutely! Does the government? Apparently not, or I would assume theyd have been shut down.

Heres a funny story about my dad. He is a HUGE racist, blames black people for EVERY wrong in the world. As I said, he spent years in the KKK (I dont talk to him anymore, so i cant speak for what he does these days).

Anyway, my family owned property spread out over a few blocks. One night a friends was at my house and we were drinking, so I called him a cab around 2 am and we went outside to wait for it. Anyway, my buddy says, dude, look, its your dad!" and sure enough, pulling away from a stop sign was my dads truck, and inside were him and a black prostitute! They went behind a closed down gas station for a spell, and then he drove back home alone.

[The Senator]

I consider the KKK to be a terrorist organization. They have killed far more people than the Weather Underground did in the 1960s, though I guess because the KKK rarely uses bombs and don't have associates linked to Obama, that excludes them from any "terrorist" lists in this country.

I also find it interesting that many people who believe the KKK shouldn't be charged for speaking their beliefs also believe that Muslim extremists who discuss blowing up buildings in the United States should be imprisoned without due process... after all, if all those guys are doing is talking about committing a crime, why should we persecute them until they actually commit the crime? Even if they purchase fertilizer and other materials used in bombs, shouldn't we not prosecute them, since they haven't done anything? Many KKK members have weapons or materials used to make weapons, and they aren't arrested for conspiracy...

[The Major]

Do I???? Absolutely! Does the government? Apparently not, or I would assume theyd have been shut down.

They've tried numerous times.

It seems to be a movement so it is extremely hard to shut them down permanently. Another generation just takes over eventually.

If they aren't recognized as a terrorist organization they should be. Perhaps Obama can address this, and the other terrorists hate groups which hurt minorities.

Heres a funny story about my dad. He is a HUGE racist, blames black people for EVERY wrong in the world. As I said, he spent years in the KKK (I dont talk to him anymore, so i cant speak for what he does these days).

Anyway, my family owned property spread out over a few blocks. One night a friends was at my house and we were drinking, so I called him a cab around 2 am and we went outside to wait for it. Anyway, my buddy says, dude, look, its your dad!" and sure enough, pulling away from a stop sign was my dads truck, and inside were him and a black prostitute! They went behind a closed down gas station for a spell, and then he drove back home alone.

:wow:

[Heretic]

We have to learn to remove our personal feelings from these discusssions. Why isnt the KKK categorized as a terrorist organization by the government? Sure, i believe they are terrorists, and you believe they are terrorists, but teh government does not classify them as terrorists. Its freaking weird when you think about it. WHY hasnt the government just closed the lid on those inbred morons? I have to assume that theres a reason why...

[The Major]

We have to learn to remove our personal feelings from these discusssions. Why isnt the KKK categorized as a terrorist organization by the government? Sure, i believe they are terrorists, and you believe they are terrorists, but teh government does not classify them as terrorists. Its freaking weird when you think about it. WHY hasnt the government just closed the lid on those inbred morons? I have to assume that theres a reason why...

That reason had better be good.

Though I doubt I'd approve of it.

[The Senator]

We have to learn to remove our personal feelings from these discusssions. Why isnt the KKK categorized as a terrorist organization by the government? Sure, i believe they are terrorists, and you believe they are terrorists, but teh government does not classify them as terrorists. Its freaking weird when you think about it. WHY hasnt the government just closed the lid on those inbred morons? I have to assume that theres a reason why...

It probably has to do with the fact that our government used to be overrun by racists, and as a result, several legal measures were put in place to secure the KKK's right to exist on the basis of the First Amendment.

Which again, I find incredibly hilarious, since if Al Qaeda had a national organization in the United States and began recruiting members in the NYC suburbs, they would be shutdown in a heartbeat even though they hadn't committed a crime at the time...

[spideyboy_1111]

Right now, I'm seeing a lot of angry protesting (against "acceptable" targets, of course) and moping. Heretic kind of got it right when he said that the anti-Prop 8 crowd just assumed they would win based on activity in their own communities, without really pleading their case to the rest of the more conservative population.

I still think a win for gay rights can come out of this, but creating a perception-shift in the rest of the country is what's needed, and that takes finesse.

well there was at least 20,000 protesting alone in LA today.. which was an amazing turn out. more then 300 cities in 11 countries protested today. I am very touched and very proud. Today was an amazing day.

[spideyboy_1111]

Apparently not enough "outreach"...I read an interview on DailyKos, I think where an anti 8 advocate was asked why they did not go into the black communities, namely the churches...the response was "If we did that, we would get thrown out of their churches"

A) that is true
and
B) We actually did do a hell of alot, the problem was the yes campaign flat out lied to the community, and used scare tactics, thats extremely hard to fight and damn near impossible esp when they use kids as there shields.

[spideyboy_1111]

The gay population did not expect the Mormon church to pour millions of dollars into this campaign. The church did this at the last minute, too, and because they already had an insurmountable financial infrastructure, it became very difficult for the gay community to raise enough money to promote their cause with three weeks left in the effort. So we relied on grassroots campaigning in areas of the state where we thought we could actually make a difference. But how can you compete with a media campaign targeting every single household in the state with ads comparing homosexuality to bestiality, or campaigns declaring that we must "SAVE THE CHILDREN!!!" from those sinful queers and their agenda to teach children about gay marriage?

We have a right to protest, by the way, and it is merited: Proposition 8 is the first amendment in this country to take rights away from the gay community. It was a revision to the constitution as well, which means it never should have gone DIRECTLY to the voters. It should have gone in front of the state legislature before ever making it to the polls. Moreover, it puts the fate of 18,000 couples who have married since this summer in limbo, considering there was no explicit mention of what would happen to them.

So, really, any claim that we are just "protesting and moping" and we need "finesse" to win over the majority is absolute nonsense. We were the ones with the considerable advantage, until the Mormon church and the Knights of Columbus forfeited "finesse" and "acceptable behavior" on their own by running a filthy campaign against homosexuals in California. The gay community is not backing down from this fight, as evident by the hundreds of protests occurring across the country today. And hopefully, this proposition will be overturned by the California Supreme Court in the coming months due to its obvious legal complications.

actually it's the first time in US history the people have voted to take rights away from a minority... which is extremely disturbing.

[spideyboy_1111]

To Spideyboy:

Im not conflicted at all. I support the rights of gay people to marry each other. They are human beings and deserve equal rights to any other american citizen. However, i DO have a problem when those rallies turn into sex parties with nudity and open sex in public, and as I said earlier, I once attended one where gays openly had sex in front of children and NO ONE seemed to have any problem with it. In order for our mutual movement to succeed, the movement for equal rights, we have to condemn deviant behavior that hurts our cause. I am prepeared to do that. Saying that sex should not be happening on our city ctreets is not anti gay at all...it is pro decency. In my old hometown there is an area where in broad daylight women flash their breasts and all sorts of chaos goes down (in certain times of year). This activity happens in front of children and I am equally opposed to that (and the other straight people not speaking out against it) as I am with this.

As far as comparing the KKK to gay rallies...the KKK have the right to express their opinion, as do homosexuals. However, when EITHER breaks the law during their rallies then they should be shut down. The KKK are also their own worst enemies since they have the worst PR campaign Ive ever seen.

THEY ARE NOT TURNING INTO SEX PARTIES. THIS IS PROTESTING, NOT GAY PRIDE. WE ARE THERE TO FIGHT FOR OUR FREEDOMS, NOT FUN. Stop generalizing one experience with us all.

i dont agree with public sex, especially in front of kids, but I dont think all of us homosexuals should be blamed for it.

[spideyboy_1111]

I can think of many, many things I would have done differently if I were in California and on the team to help keep marriage legal. Say what you will, the outreach did not reach beyond your comfort zone.

I'll equate it to my old job running street teams for a major record label. I would send out all the stickers and promo cds and waste tons of money, and then while on tour, Id se the street teamers passing out the promo products IN LINE while waiting to get into THAT BANDS concert. Why are you wasting our promotion buget giving away materials to people who already suppprt the band?? Why not grow a set and get out there and try to win over some new people?

The gay community just did not have the grass roots outreach. They simply tried to motivate their faithful, and it wasnt enough.

say what you will, but your not in california and you have not physically seen what we have done, nor have you experiences the heart, blood, sweat and soul people put into the campaign. Just because we got defeated does not mean we did not do enough.

[Heretic]

I have never blamed all homosexuals for the deviancy that happens at some pride events. To the best of my knowledge, everything went very well today and was run in a professional manner....though I got home and saw the national news talking about the california wildfires with no mention of the massive protests going on all over the country, which is a shame.


However, the fact that we lost means EXACTLY that you did not do enough. Look, Im ON YOUR SIDE, but youre not being realistic. Our side didnt come in second place, we lost. We now know what we are dealing with...a massive, well funded bigotry campaign based on lies and scare tactics. maybe you guys over there got side-swiped by it. But now you know...now you can prepare. Sulking and bellyaching over it and claiming that you did everything you needed to do is a waste of time. We lost, that means that not enough was done. Saying that the movement cant possibly do any better than what was done is not the way to go at it. You take a step back, figure out what YOUR SIDE did wrong and then tackle those issues and try to improve. We have a huge hill to climb, not only defeating bigotry, but bigotry funded by all the money they could ever need. We cant just say "well, they have money" and surrender. We have to get even better, even smarter, and get back to it.

[BlackLantern]

small mention in the middle of the local news broadcast here in CT.....and I agree with what Heretic is saying, as I said something similar the other day....stop assuming people will just change and accept you....get out there and keep fighting

[Heretic]

For a national protest with thousands of people all over the country, this has been mostly ignored by the media as far as I can tell. Heck, Im not even talking Fox News. The liberal media isnt giving it "top story" coverage either. It doesnt make a lot of sense.

[The Major]

For a national protest with thousands of people all over the country, this has been mostly ignored by the media as far as I can tell. Heck, Im not even talking Fox News.

Fox News are smart enough not to report it because would be giving it national exposure.

The liberal media isnt giving it "top story" coverage either.

There has been some coverage. Joy Baer discussed it on Larry King's and DL Hughley had a segment on it in their shows yesterday.

It doesnt make a lot of sense.

It's not about a random celebrity getting drunk, human interest fluff or people getting injured.

Gays wanting equal rights is apparently not interesting enough to get high ratings with them.

[Hobgoblin]

Guys, please keep the conversation on topic.

[spideyboy_1111]

I have never blamed all homosexuals for the deviancy that happens at some pride events. To the best of my knowledge, everything went very well today and was run in a professional manner....though I got home and saw the national news talking about the california wildfires with no mention of the massive protests going on all over the country, which is a shame.


However, the fact that we lost means EXACTLY that you did not do enough. Look, Im ON YOUR SIDE, but youre not being realistic. Our side didnt come in second place, we lost. We now know what we are dealing with...a massive, well funded bigotry campaign based on lies and scare tactics. maybe you guys over there got side-swiped by it. But now you know...now you can prepare. Sulking and bellyaching over it and claiming that you did everything you needed to do is a waste of time. We lost, that means that not enough was done. Saying that the movement cant possibly do any better than what was done is not the way to go at it. You take a step back, figure out what YOUR SIDE did wrong and then tackle those issues and try to improve. We have a huge hill to climb, not only defeating bigotry, but bigotry funded by all the money they could ever need. We cant just say "well, they have money" and surrender. We have to get even better, even smarter, and get back to it.

Yeah unfortunately flames beat flamers today :(. the news has literally played nothing else but the fires all day.

and you seriously need to read Jmans post better... the lies and there tactics and extra money honestly only started pouring in within the last few weeks till the election. We had an amazing campaign And i honestly don't think we could have done much better.

[spideyboy_1111]

small mention in the middle of the local news broadcast here in CT.....and I agree with what Heretic is saying, as I said something similar the other day....stop assuming people will just change and accept you....get out there and keep fighting

i agree 100%, thats why im pissed when i hear people not wanting to really go out and fight for there rights

[spideyboy_1111]

Guys, please keep the conversation on topic.

when has it been off?:huh:

[Heretic]

We got derailed briefly with KKK stuff, as any long thread is bound to temporarily jump ship, but we righted course and are back to the subject at hand.

If only a young pregnant white girl had been killed by her husband on her way to a rally this would be all over tv.

We have two years in Cali, and I guarantee it will pass that time. Plus, I expect MoveOn and other left wing groups to do a little rogue public information campaigns on Mormonism between then and now.

This is going to work itself out...but equal rights has never been an easy thing to attain.

[The Major]

We got derailed briefly with KKK stuff, as any long thread is bound to temporarily jump ship, but we righted course and are back to the subject at hand.

If only a young pregnant white girl had been killed by her husband on her way to a rally this would be all over tv.

We have two years in Cali, and I guarantee it will pass that time. Plus, I expect MoveOn and other left wing groups to do a little rogue public information campaigns on Mormonism between then and now.

This is going to work itself out...but equal rights has never been an easy thing to attain.

That's a good idea.

The gay community should reach out to other sympathetic organizations who can give them exposure and support to get their message to as many people as possible.

One of the Rolling Stone writers is a spokesmen IIRC. They could use his influence to get articles about their cause in that every few months.

[spideyboy_1111]

heres some news reports i found...

im actually in shock that so little has been said, this was quite possibly the largest nationwide gay rights protest in history...

http://www.ktla.com/landing_national/?Gay-advocates-protest-marriage-ban-acros=1&blockID=136095&feedID=16

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/15/same.sex.marriage/index.html

MSNBC actually has it as the top headline :)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27738714/


i don't agree with the "10 to 12 thousand" that was the predicted of last weeks, and today was def larger, it was blatantly obvious.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-prop816-2008nov16,0,1684268.story

[The Major]

heres some news reports i found...

im actually in shock that so little has been said, this was quite possibly the largest nationwide gay rights protest in history...

http://www.ktla.com/landing_national/?Gay-advocates-protest-marriage-ban-acros=1&blockID=136095&feedID=16

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/15/same.sex.marriage/index.html

MSNBC actually has it as the top headline :)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27738714/

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-prop816-2008nov16,0,1684268.story

The internet might be a better outlet for the message next time.

[Marx]

MORMONS TIPPED SCALE IN BAN ON GAY MARRIAGE
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us/politics/15marriage.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

[spideyboy_1111]

The internet might be a better outlet for the message next time.
? we used the net for todays rally.... and it worked really well

[The Major]

? we used the net for todays rally.... and it worked really well

I mean in a greater capacity then the movement has been doing.

IMO you need a "campaign" similar to Obama's on the net for long term strategy.

And you need to find a solution to defusing the anti-gay smears from the opposition. That's going to be difficult to accomplish.

[Heretic]

In politics, you do what you have to do...its as simple as that. Sometimes that means getting your hands dirty.

1. You go after Obama, and get him to endorse the cause. With him as a voice, it will neutralize the black vote.

2. You get the left wing groups to do a scientology style hit job on Mormonism. In the process, you ruin Mitt Romney...but whatever...I never said this was going to be an admirable idea. Iit would help if you could uncover/invent some scandal on Romney, which removes him as a voice of reason.

3. You reach out to those who will be sympathetic to your cause, even if they disagree with you on everything else. Spend two years linking this to the black civil rights movement (which is a crock, but again...youre making change, not winning points to get into heaven). You link it to the womens movement. You go after the young republicans, as young democrats are already in your corner. You play it as a family values issue, and young republicans will either be neutralized by confusion or many will join your cause. There is an entire crop of kids who are more sympathetic to the gay lifestyle that will be 18 by then...you rally each and every one of them to the voting booths.

4. In two years the oldest of those who voted to ban it will be dead.

5. You completely reinvent the gay community in the eyes of the public. You turn the gay lifestyle into a Ward and June Cleaver type situation (since to many people the current view of homosexuality is random truck stop meetings)

[The Major]

3. You reach out to those who will be sympathetic to your cause, even if they disagree with you on everything else. Spend two years linking this to the black civil rights movement (which is a crock, but again...youre making change, not winning points to get into heaven). You link it to the womens movement.
Actually, I don't see it as a crock.

The women and black civil rights movement share a lot in common with the gays situation IMO.

The hard part will be to convince those groups of this.

The most difficult will be the religious minded. They need to find a rational answer to believe it and then there's the church's punishment to overcome. With these obstacles removed they'll be more interested in converting.

[Heretic]

Women will be easier than blacks. You already haave many spokeswomen on your behalf.

For blacks, the best thing is that they arent voting in two years because Obama wont be on the ballot. If Obama can be pressured into backing the cause then you have won.

For religious minded...its tough. their leaders are telling them that you are heathens that will burn in hell. You go for young christians, since the other side always ignores the young vote. See, as a conservative myself, this is easy...I believe in the strength of family...and two people who love each other should be able to be a family. Thats it. Im not sure why (other than bigotry) that other conservatives dont see that as well. But, you have two years to work on them.

[EdRyder]

I dont see why its a "crock" to link it to the civil rights movement.
The real crock is the fact that these states like California seem to believe they have the right to even have a vote on the matter.
How do you "vote" on unconstitutional legislation?
And again,..Marriage as a religious institution is a crock.Its a civil union that can be granted by a judge at city hall.Not some holy document that must be anointed by a priest.
Whats downright laughable to me is the fact that you have existing rights and standards granted to mistresses such as "palimony" that usurp the church's stance on marriage.

All you have to do is change the word 'homosexual' to 'black' in their ban and you'll see how funny it really is.People just need to wake up.

[wiegeabo]

I dont see why its a "crock" to link it to the civil rights movement.
The real crock is the fact that these states like California seem to believe they have the right to even have a vote on the matter.
How do you "vote" on unconstitutional legislation?
And again,..Marriage as a religious institution is a crock.Its a civil union that can be granted by a judge at city hall.Not some holy document that must be anointed by a priest.
Whats downright laughable to me is the fact that you have existing rights and standards granted to mistresses such as "palimony" that usurp the church's stance on marriage.

All you have to do is change the word 'homosexual' to 'black' in their ban and you'll see how funny it really is.People just need to wake up.


By voting it into the Constitution, it can no longer be called unconstitutional. Everything in a constitution is considered legal and untouchable by the courts. That was the whole reason the supporters went that way with Prop 8.

Only three things about it can be done now. One, the courts determine the legislation was added to the constitution illegally. That doesn't look like it's going to be successful (the contention was amendments can't be voted into the constitution, but they can in California).

Two, the legislators or voters repeal Prop 8 (much like prohibition was repealed).

Three, the US Supreme Court declares it unconstitutional (since the US Constitution trumps state constitutions). At which point, gay marriage would become legal for the entire country.

[The Lizard]

You said above that elections are decided upon who has the most money...and the mormons beat the gay marriage movement because of cash. Therefore, it is ssafe to assume that Obama beat McCain because he had more money, not because he had a better message.

As far as insulting your movement...of course i had little to do with it...i live on the east coast, so of course I wasnt hitting the california streets with flyers. However, I think to just say "we were outspent" is wrong. Obama BEAT MCCain, and he would have if McCain had ten times as much money. He just had a better message. The gay right movement had a far better message and still lost. You want to blame dirty tricks by Mormons? Go right ahead...negative ads do work and probably had an impact...which is why the work needs to start NOW so you can gain momentum for next time. In a month I expect professional, ethical steps to be taken by the pro gay marriage movement so that they can lock in a bigger number by the time the scare tactics come back around.

I'm just going to be lazy and quote this in agreement. Particularly since the anti-8 campaign did receive more money than the pro-8 side when all was said and done. jman can continue to call it "nonsense" all he wants, but the evidence is out there. Emotions are still running high, but like I said, the gay-rights side can still pull a victory out of this when the dust settles and the angry rhetoric dies down.

[Heretic]

I stand by what I said earlier about compating the gay rights movement to the black civil rights movement being a crock.

Black people were property, not even human beings. You could beat them, kill them, force them into slavery, sell them. gays have never dealt with anything like that in this country. Sure, gay people are discriminated against, even murdered at times, but it is not a systematic problem where the murders arent even against the law. Im not saying that gay people arent discriminated against, but i am saying that it is nothing compared to what blacks experienced. That doesnt mean that you dont try to make the link though, as you will need black leaders on your side to quiet the anti gay black vote.

[Shemtov]

i really dont understand what all the hubub about prop. H is.it says that gays and lesbians cannot get married, but it does not prevent cali legislators from allowing them to enter into domestic partnerships. in fact, i think the govt. shoundnt even give hetero maraiges because maraige is a releigous thing and it is not a govts. right to give maraiges or control them. instead the govt. should give domestic partnerships to people regardless of sexuality.
not only is this good for gays but it will help other people also. for example mormons could marry multiple people and only get a domestic partnership with one. also domestic partnership doesnt have sexaul implaction. two men could get a domestic partnership as oposed to a maraige and it doesnt nessacerily mean there gay and they can keep in the closet if they want to. ok it does mean they're gay but the words domestic partnership doesnt have the same psyclogical impact as marraige, y'know what i mean?

[The Senator]

i really dont understand what all the hubub about prop. H is.it says that gays and lesbians cannot get married, but it does not prevent cali legislators from allowing them to enter into domestic partnerships. in fact, i think the govt. shoundnt even give hetero maraiges because maraige is a releigous thing and it is not a govts. right to give maraiges or control them. instead the govt. should give domestic partnerships to people regardless of sexuality.
not only is this good for gays but it will help other people also. for example mormons could marry multiple people and only get a domestic partnership with one. also domestic partnership doesnt have sexaul implaction. two men could get a domestic partnership as oposed to a maraige and it doesnt nessacerily mean there gay and they can keep in the closet if they want to. ok it does mean they're gay but the words domestic partnership doesnt have the same psyclogical impact as marraige, y'know what i mean?

:dry:

[Marx]

i really dont understand what all the hubub about prop. H is.it says that gays and lesbians cannot get married, but it does not prevent cali legislators from allowing them to enter into domestic partnerships. in fact, i think the govt. shoundnt even give hetero maraiges because maraige is a releigous thing and it is not a govts. right to give maraiges or control them. instead the govt. should give domestic partnerships to people regardless of sexuality.
not only is this good for gays but it will help other people also. for example mormons could marry multiple people and only get a domestic partnership with one. also domestic partnership doesnt have sexaul implaction. two men could get a domestic partnership as oposed to a maraige and it doesnt nessacerily mean there gay and they can keep in the closet if they want to. ok it does mean they're gay but the words domestic partnership doesnt have the same psyclogical impact as marraige, y'know what i mean?

:facepalm

[Hobgoblin]

i really dont understand what all the hubub about prop. H is.it says that gays and lesbians cannot get married, but it does not prevent cali legislators from allowing them to enter into domestic partnerships. in fact, i think the govt. shoundnt even give hetero maraiges because maraige is a releigous thing and it is not a govts. right to give maraiges or control them. instead the govt. should give domestic partnerships to people regardless of sexuality.
not only is this good for gays but it will help other people also. for example mormons could marry multiple people and only get a domestic partnership with one. also domestic partnership doesnt have sexaul implaction. two men could get a domestic partnership as oposed to a maraige and it doesnt nessacerily mean there gay and they can keep in the closet if they want to. ok it does mean they're gay but the words domestic partnership doesnt have the same psyclogical impact as marraige, y'know what i mean?

....

I....

....


You do know that the whole point of marriage/domestic partnerships is that the two people are attracted to each other and want to have sex right? Your idea is like saying a man and woman getting married but not wanting to sleep with each other.

[spideyboy_1111]

I stand by what I said earlier about compating the gay rights movement to the black civil rights movement being a crock.

Black people were property, not even human beings. You could beat them, kill them, force them into slavery, sell them. gays have never dealt with anything like that in this country. Sure, gay people are discriminated against, even murdered at times, but it is not a systematic problem where the murders arent even against the law. Im not saying that gay people arent discriminated against, but i am saying that it is nothing compared to what blacks experienced. That doesnt mean that you dont try to make the link though, as you will need black leaders on your side to quiet the anti gay black vote.

We've been over this enough with you, and explained this enough to you, just because they were slaves doesn't change the fact how the public treated them in the 60's. Gay rights is a civil rights case, we've been through many of the same stuff other have who have endured race related hate. Just because a bunch of "strait men" didn't own us on a farm doesn't really change much. White men didn't have asian slaves running around the US

[spideyboy_1111]

spiderboy2... please educate yourself. Marriage has been around alot longer then most religions ...

[Heretic]

We've been over this enough with you, and explained this enough to you, just because they were slaves doesn't change the fact how the public treated them in the 60's. Gay rights is a civil rights case, we've been through many of the same stuff other have who have endured race related hate. Just because a bunch of "strait men" didn't own us on a farm doesn't really change much. White men didn't have asian slaves running around the US


I know this sounds crazy, but it just seems like the fact that blacks were owned by other people, and legally beaten and killed by the thousands just makes it a little different. Id bet that many blacks would agree...which I think is supported by their massive turnout to deny gays their civil rights.

Perhaps a little less bravado in equating your struggle with blacks is in order.

[spideyboy_1111]

this was like a week ago.. but i thought it was a pretty good vid
lOB_MbU6gjI&feature

some video from yesterday

Los Angeles:
HBjv9WW35FI

*part of the mayors speech
YN5BmUsiySc
people suck at uploading things to youtube... lucy lawless gave a really good speech and like none of the speeches from anyone are uploaded :(

o wait, well here's one
bNl-_jrAldg

Q6VKvOU-WUQ

some haters hating.
a24ASBo4hbY

some honkers honking
fbW1JsVqc-s

0WdmrlHdznw

[Kelly]

Dear god would you people stop quoting spideyboy 2. He has every right to his opinion..........but the spelling is giving me a headache.

[spideyboy_1111]

Chicago:

haters vs lovers
MCfb3hmtW5g

LF0QtxfQnWg

ZS3SIH_GbcI

Margret Cho at the Cincinnati protest: *language warning*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo8wPJ5AnWs

Cleveland news
FhBC6KJh1_M

Boston
6w9CmEevhSw

NYC
n3_rTyazhm4

Honolulu
YR5KgCKy2zE

Washington DC
FmGDIUjL0vY

San Fransisco
H-UWDUPTGU8

San Diego
I0tOJaBFLlM

Little Rock
JlDO-kUX6WI

Philadelphia
3B3u0FYSE9Y

Detroit
DdVtJ6F6ANw

Eugene, OR
SAFk1E6PVxs

Denver
MiPrB7e_nUQ

Seattle
Dehf7YDcjL4

Houston
FsTNJRjCUDw

[spideyboy_1111]

Dear god would you people stop quoting spideyboy 2. He has every right to his opinion..........but the spelling is giving me a headache.

in his opinion he tried to state facts. Facts which are untrue.

[UltimateJustin]

Not to diverge too far, but if gay rappers like Kanye West and surely many others would come out of the closet maybe then black America could begin to evolve.

[Kelly]

in his opinion he tried to state facts. Facts which are untrue.


wow, that's never happened on this board........:whatever:


And you actually read something in there with all the typos???????

[spideyboy_1111]

Wanda Sykes officailly, finally comes out... and she's pissed
ilYcrig6hyo

[Kelly]

Also, as far as the vids go spidey....if there is language that is censored here on this site, that is not allowed.

Also, with the hater vs. lover thing up there spidey.....are you saying with that, that if you do not agree with your lifestyle, you are a hater and if you do you are a lover????


I'm all for gay rights, I see no problem with an evolution towards greater rights for gays.....but really, thats not exactly a way to get a point across..........IF that is what you mean.

[Heretic]

there are human beings who have sex with Wanda Sykes?

[The Senator]

wow, that's never happened on this board........:whatever:

Now that lazur's gone I think that problem has subsided, for the most part. :cwink:

[Kelly]

Now that lazur's gone I think that problem has subsided, for the most part. :cwink:


you could very well be correct.....................lol

[spideyboy_1111]

Las Vegas
J6LsU0Op1do

Charlotte, NC
Tydkc79hDy4


Columbus, OH
3xiHaw-F73c

Jacksonville, FL
calCE617n2w

Hartford, CT
TvCp3y2WfIs

[spideyboy_1111]

Also, as far as the vids go spidey....if there is language that is censored here on this site, that is not allowed.

Also, with the hater vs. lover thing up there spidey.....are you saying with that, that if you do not agree with your lifestyle, you are a hater and if you do you are a lover????


I'm all for gay rights, I see no problem with an evolution towards greater rights for gays.....but really, thats not exactly a way to get a point across..........IF that is what you mean.

discrimination = hate no matter what you want to say about it. You might not agree, but those who don't agree should not discriminate. If you can't differentiate your personal beliefs from religious ones, or understand the concept of separation of church and state then yes.

If you don't agree but believe in the foundation of liberty and justice for all.. then you should be able to accept this. Canada and many countries in Europe have had gay marriage for quite some time now, and has any of this affected them? NO. Why are there more bigots and close minded people in America? this is the land of the free not the oppressed.

[spideyboy_1111]

Not to diverge too far, but if gay rappers like Kanye West and surely many others would come out of the closet maybe then black America could begin to evolve.

i don't think Kanye is gay... he's just a 8itchy douche

[Kelly]

I understand where you are coming from....but the issue of separation of church and state in the way that the early thinkers believed was from Luther's Reformation in that we have a choice, and the government cannot choose a religion or demand that you follow a religion. It does not mean that I can't make choices in my life as a citizen of this country that may or may not be influenced by my beliefs in God, or no belief in a god.

If people simply do not believe in your lifestyle, and choose to vote against a piece of law that they do not believe in, they have every right to do so. NOW, if they are coming out and beating the hell out of you because of your lifestyle, that is a different story.

As slavery was abolished, as women were given the right to vote, as black americans were given equal opportunities.....all of these written into law, I have all certainty that the rights of homosexuals will be strengthened as well.........but if someone was given a choice as the people of California were given for H8 and chose against it, that is there right. I DO NOT BELIEVE that the majority in MANY states will vote in your favor. It needs to be done through legislation at a national level.......but you need to understand that you are starting in a MUCH BETTER POSITION than ANY American woman or black American did in our fight for equal rights. So I can understand where some might take issue when equating this with their fight for equal rights. As a white man, you still would probably make more money than me in many occupations than I would as a white woman...........but it will happen......and I agree with you that it should.

[The Major]

i don't think Kanye is gay... he's just a 8itchy douche

He has to be to be successful in his industry.

Kanye's public persona is as important as his music.

[spideyboy_1111]

I understand where you are coming from....but the issue of separation of church and state in the way that the early thinkers believed was from Luther's Reformation in that we have a choice, and the government cannot choose a religion or demand that you follow a religion. It does not mean that I can't make choices in my life as a citizen of this country that may or may not be influenced by my beliefs in God, or no belief in a god.

If people simply do not believe in your lifestyle, and choose to vote against a piece of law that they do not believe in, they have every right to do so. NOW, if they are coming out and beating the hell out of you because of your lifestyle, that is a different story.

As slavery was abolished, as women were given the right to vote, as black americans were given equal opportunities.....all of these written into law, I have all certainty that the rights of homosexuals will be strengthened as well.........but if someone was given a choice as the people of California were given for H8 and chose against it, that is there right. I DO NOT BELIEVE that the majority in MANY states will vote in your favor. It needs to be done through legislation at a national level.......but you need to understand that you are starting in a MUCH BETTER POSITION than ANY American woman for black American did in our fight for equal rights. So I can understand where some might take issue when equating this with their fight for equal rights. As a white man, you still would probably make more money than me in many occupations than I would as a white woman...........but it will happen......and I agree with you that it should.

indeed, but your beliefs should not be allowed to affect other people when they honestly do not affect you at all. (im using "you" as "anyone" just for clarification)

indeed, they were written into law, but they were NEVER voted upon. Nov 4th was a sad day in US history, the first time we have ever stripped a minority of there rights. Something that should have at least been a 2/3 vote anyway. We understand were in a much better position then the other groups. But doesn't mean we don't have less road bumps to overcome.

For me, one of the things i really want to fight for are the states where the gay population is extremely repressed. Sure you can always say "if they don't like it, don't live there" but should they really have to leave the only place they've ever called home? States like these are the ones i feel are really dependant on the rest of the country for a nationwide allowance of gay marriage (at the very very very very least civil unions).

[spideyboy_1111]

He has to be to be successful in his industry.

Kanye's public persona is as important as his music.

i'm sorry, but no he doesn't. he's alienating people by his comments. Hell this week he just deemed himself "the voice of his generation" the guys a cocky a-hole who comes off like a spoiled brat.

[The Major]

i'm sorry, but no he doesn't. he's alienating people by his comments. Hell this week he just deemed himself "the voice of his generation" the guys a cocky a-hole who comes off like a spoiled brat.

He's appealing to a specific audience who aren't alienated by his persona.

They aren't you or me.

[spideyboy_1111]

He's appealing to a specific audience who aren't alienated by his persona.

They aren't you or me.

well his audience went from appealing to alot more, to appealing to alot less.

as a public entertainment figure, his persona should appeal to more then just a small group. I honestly don't know anyone who agrees with what he says, they just like his music (thats about it)

[BlackLantern]

In the black community, public perception is the most important thing....if the black community doesn't consider you "down", then good luck trying to get anyone to listen....

[The Major]

well his audience went from appealing to alot more, to appealing to alot less.

LOL

as a public entertainment figure, his persona should appeal to more then just a small group.

True, but he seems to be doing well with it.

His persona allows him to get free exposure, as well.

I honestly don't know anyone who agrees with what he says, they just like his music (thats about it)

He must be doing something right to appeal to them even if they disagree with what he says.

[spideyboy_1111]

In the black community, public perception is the most important thing....if the black community doesn't consider you "down", then good luck trying to get anyone to listen....

sadly this is true.... it seems like (especially with the men) that if you don't act this one certain way in the black community they pretty much shun you.

[spideyboy_1111]

LOL



True, but he seems to be doing well with it.

His persona allows him to get free exposure, as well.



He must be doing something right to appeal to them even if they disagree with what he says.

maybe... but the more he keeps up his rants and self loving claims, i think the more will just realize he's a douche.

[BlackLantern]

sadly this is true.... it seems like (especially with the men) that if you don't act this one certain way in the black community they pretty much shun you.

Yea....if you had 2 podiums in a gathering of black people...behind one podium stands an African American Harvard graduate PHD and behind the other podium stands T.I.,

who do you think the people will listen to??

it sucks, but that's the way it is.....as for trying to get the black community to listen to your side of things, you have to get someone who the black community holds in high regard on your side....

[Ion Kenshin]

its sounds funny yes ...but get Oprah man...you get her and you practically have the world by the balls apparently

[spideyboy_1111]

its sounds funny yes ...but get Oprah man...you get her and you practically have the world by the balls apparently

well we have a start, Oprah just did an episode about prop 8 with Mellisa Ethridge.

[spideyboy_1111]

Yea....if you had 2 podiums in a gathering of black people...behind one podium stands an African American Harvard graduate PHD and behind the other podium stands T.I.,

who do you think the people will listen to??

it sucks, but that's the way it is.....as for trying to get the black community to listen to your side of things, you have to get someone who the black community holds in high regard on your side....

hmmm is Oprah "black enough' i never really hear much about what the black community thinks of her.... is she too "Cosby"?

[The Major]

hmmm is Oprah "black enough' i never really hear much about what the black community thinks of her.... is she too "Cosby"?

She doesn't just appeal to the black community, she appeals to the women which are even more powerful group.

[BlackLantern]

hmmm is Oprah "black enough' i never really hear much about what the black community thinks of her.... is she too "Cosby"?

Yes she is...she has more pull with the soccer moms than the black community....you get someone like Dr. Dre or T.I. or even Lebron James to come out and say, in public and on record, that they support gay marriage, equality, etc....then people might listen

[spideyboy_1111]

She doesn't just appeal to the black community, she appeals to the women which are even more powerful group.

O yes i know this... Oprah has scary crazy power. she can move mountains with her thoughts.

[spideyboy_1111]

Yes she is...she has more pull with the soccer moms than the black community....you get someone like Dr. Dre or T.I. or even Lebron James to come out and say, in public and on record, that they support gay marriage, equality, etc....then people might listen

Or the black community would just shun them too :(

how do they feel about Diddy? he might support gay rights and come out fine

[Kelly]

indeed, but your beliefs should not be allowed to affect other people when they honestly do not affect you at all. (im using "you" as "anyone" just for clarification)

indeed, they were written into law, but they were NEVER voted upon. Nov 4th was a sad day in US history, the first time we have ever stripped a minority of there rights. Something that should have at least been a 2/3 vote anyway. We understand were in a much better position then the other groups. But doesn't mean we don't have less road bumps to overcome.

For me, one of the things i really want to fight for are the states where the gay population is extremely repressed. Sure you can always say "if they don't like it, don't live there" but should they really have to leave the only place they've ever called home? States like these are the ones i feel are really dependant on the rest of the country for a nationwide allowance of gay marriage (at the very very very very least civil unions).

Spidey.....the argument of "you can't vote on this issue because your beliefs are different from mine" just won't float. They believe that your way of life, if allowed, does affect them.....that is why this issue is so hard, and is different from the civil rights movement. They see your lifestyle as a choice, and there just isn't enough scientific, imperical evidence out there YET, to prove otherwise to them. On top of that, they think your choice goes against THERE way of life. So railing against the church IS NOT going to get you what you desire. The church is NEVER going to "in a majority" see your side. Therefore as I stated, it will have to be written into law. The fight for "women's vote" was different because the problem was they were "women" they couldn't change that.......as far as the civil rights movement, it is the color of their skin, they couldn't help that. Many, many people do not see your lifestyle as anymore than a choice. That is the HARSH TRUTH....SOOOOO a law will have to be put in place.....and then strengthened by the Supreme Court through our justice system........you will not get ANY of the southern states to vote a prop into low. It won't happen.......and as far as oppression, I got news for ya......my gay friends in the corporate world are doing quite well.......and they would like to see a "well managed, well educated, well structured, quiet use of the legal system and the legislature" to get what they desire. They are great followers of Martin Luther King, and they respected his civil rights movement.....they've had alot of problems with what they see happening in California....they see it as hurting this cause....not helping it.

[BlackLantern]

Or the black community would just shun them too :(

how do they feel about Diddy? he might support gay rights and come out fine

...and there's the rub, it's a serious conflict of opposing viewpoints....and you're right, it might further your cause or hurt a lot more than it would help

[spideyboy_1111]

Spidey.....the argument of "you can't vote on this issue because your beliefs are different from mine" just won't float. They believe that your way of life, if allowed, does affect them.....that is why this issue is so hard, and is different from the civil rights movement. They see your lifestyle as a choice, and there just isn't enough scientific, imperical evidence out there YET, to prove otherwise to them. On top of that, they think your choice goes against THERE way of life. So railing against the church IS NOT going to get you what you desire. The church is NEVER going to "in a majority" see your side. Therefore as I stated, it will have to be written into law. The fight for "women's vote" was different because the problem was they were "women" they couldn't change that.......as far as the civil rights movement, it is the color of their skin, they couldn't help that. Many, many people do not see your lifestyle as anymore than a choice. That is the HARSH TRUTH....SOOOOO a law will have to be put in place.....and then strengthened by the Supreme Court through our justice system........you will not get ANY of the southern states to vote a prop into low. It won't happen.......and as far as oppression, I got news for ya......my gay friends in the corporate world are doing quite well.......and they would like to see a "well managed, well educated, well structured, quiet use of the legal system and the legislature" to get what they desire. They are great followers of Martin Luther King, and they respected his civil rights movement.....they've had alot of problems with what they see happening in California....they see it as hurting this cause....not helping it.

Except there's been absolutely no proof that it does affect them. There same religions are in other countries that allow gay marriage and that's affected none of them. Thus why it's called ignorance. There is lots of evidence that pin points it at biology, and absolutely none that pin points it at choice. They just refuse to believe that there god created us the way we are. And actually considering there are some churches that are pro gay rights, rallying and public opinion can change things.

[Kelly]

Except there's been absolutely no proof that it does affect them. There same religions are in other countries that allow gay marriage and that's affected none of them. Thus why it's called ignorance. There is lots of evidence that pin points it at biology, and absolutely none that pin points it at choice. They just refuse to believe that there god created us the way we are. And actually considering there are some churches that are pro gay rights, rallying and public opinion can change things.


Hence why I said "as a majority" as far as the church is concerned. They believe in the writings found in the bible, and in Romans, where much of their belief in Christ etc, is found they believe that it says your lifestyle is wrong......they believe it as the infallible word of God. Slapping a cross out of the hands of an old woman, is not going to change that.

Men did not change their minds of what women were capable of until LONG after our right to vote was given to us..........you are given the right by law, you earn the respect by your use of the law, and reaction to those that do not believe the way you do.

When I started teaching 18 years ago, a young boy or girl would have NEVER come out and said that they were gay. NEVER.......................I now have 3 openly gay students in my classroom, who are more than willing to discuss their lives and what they think.

There is much that will change in this country with the changing of generations....I can assure you.


Here is the thing......you have the law on your side. As far as California, what it will come down to is............................one of 2 choices, outlaw marriage all together (which will not happen) or allow for gay marriage.

You are upset because a group of people had more votes than you. So you rail against those groups of people, thinking that is going to change their minds. It won't........but the law will. You are sooooo much further ahead than women during suffrage, and blacks during the civil rights movement........legally you are FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR ahead of them. It will happen, maybe not as soon as you would like. But it is going to happen.

[spideyboy_1111]

Hence why I said "as a majority" as far as the church is concerned. They believe in the writings found in the bible, and in Romans, where much of their belief in Christ etc, is found they believe that it says your lifestyle is wrong......they believe it as the infallible word of God. Slapping a cross out of the hands of an old woman, is not going to change that.

Were not doing anything like that. And you can not press your religion on other people, that's the whole reason people left Europe to form this country in the first place. Your religious views legally should not affect our government. If there were religious scriptures condeming black people to hell and that they were demons, doesn't mean (even if 52% voted to not give these people rights) does it mean they should win. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Men did not change their minds of what women were capable of until LONG after our right to vote was given to us..........you are given the right by law, you earn the respect by your use of the law, and reaction to those that do not believe the way you do. Which is fine, but they got there rights without voting. And so should we.

When I started teaching 18 years ago, a young boy or girl would have NEVER come out and said that they were gay. NEVER.......................I now have 3 openly gay students in my classroom, who are more than willing to discuss their lives and what they think.

There is much that will change in this country with the changing of generations....I can assure you.

oh i definately agree... reports are showing 92% of high-school voters voted no on 8. So a change is definately coming through the generations. And we do live in much better times. The problem we are sooo behind as a country compared to many countries in Europe and Canada. It's disgusting. Especially with all the pride we have with our country.


Here is the thing......you have the law on your side. As far as California, what it will come down to is............................one of 2 choices, outlaw marriage all together (which will not happen) or allow for gay marriage. Well we know we will win in the end, but i dont consider it just about us anymore... its about our country. i dont want the protesting to stop after cali is granted gay marriage rights.

You are upset because a group of people had more votes than you. So you rail against those groups of people, thinking that is going to change their minds. It won't........but the law will. You are sooooo much further ahead than women during suffrage, and blacks during the civil rights movement........legally you are FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR ahead of them. It will happen, maybe not as soon as you would like. But it is going to happen. I agree to an extent, but would would you rather us do? sit around and do nothing? Protesting out on the streets (which we have done far more then protesting out front of the Mormon church) does far more then sitting around. It gets the word out, and demands public attention. And i don't find anything wrong with that.

[Heretic]

The gay rights movement is not smacking crosses out of old womens hands???

I have seen video of exactly that.

You see, this is the problem, and why you arent advancing quicker. The gay rights movement itself should stand up and harshly criticize events like what happened to that old lady, but instead you just say "oh, I didnt do that, so you cant blame the cause". Is no one in charge? Does the buck stop nowhere? If the leaders of this movement do not come out and set RULES for its people to follow, then the movement will be blamed every time someone steps out of line.

[spideyboy_1111]

i wasn't aware of it happening. and yes they HAVE spoke out against attacking others. they just did yesterday. Please stop acting like you know about everything going on.

[Kelly]

Were not doing anything like that. And you can not press your religion on other people, that's the whole reason people left Europe to form this country in the first place. Your religious views legally should not affect our government. If there were religious scriptures condeming black people to hell and that they were demons, doesn't mean (even if 52% voted to not give these people rights) does it mean they should win. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Which is fine, but they got there rights without voting. And so should we.



oh i definately agree... reports are showing 92% of high-school voters voted no on 8. So a change is definately coming through the generations. And we do live in much better times. The problem we are sooo behind as a country compared to many countries in Europe and Canada. It's disgusting. Especially with all the pride we have with our country.


Well we know we will win in the end, but i dont consider it just about us anymore... its about our country. i dont want the protesting to stop after cali is granted gay marriage rights.

I agree to an extent, but would would you rather us do? sit around and do nothing? Protesting out on the streets (which we have done far more then protesting out front of the Mormon church) does far more then sitting around. It gets the word out, and demands public attention. And i don't find anything wrong with that.


Heres the thing Spidey.....


I will fight for people's right to gay marriage, as well as other rights. I will fight for people to vote their hearts, whether their heart is from the end of the spectrum of God or not....


I have no problem at all with the protesting, but when it turns ugly.....yeah I have a problem with that. And yes, an elderly woman of 69 was spit on and the cross she was carrying was knocked out of her hand. I do not believe that something that "will in fact" come about for you, needs to have this on its record. That does not help your cause at all.

Many homosexuals are beaten, and even killed for their lifestyle.....laws have been put in place for just this thing, as it should be. This will pass but if you want to take away people's freedom to vote in the way they want to vote because they feel that their religious beliefs fall the way they are voting. Sorry, you lose my respect in discussing this with you.

I believe you should have the right to marry. I believe you should have the rights that married couples have. But, I will not trample on people's religious beliefs to give you that right. I will allow our judicial and legislative system to bring that about, and I will expect our executive branch to carry out that law..........but I'm not going to take away someone else's freedom to do that. My ancestors came to this country as Quakers from Ireland because they were persecuted for their beliefs. They wanted the freedom to follow their beliefs..........I'm not going to take that away from anyone, in order for others to get what they want....

[Sloth7d]

hmmm is Oprah "black enough' i never really hear much about what the black community thinks of her.... is she too "Cosby"?

Kanye West is pro-gay rights iirc.

[Anita18]

To Spideyboy:

Im not conflicted at all. I support the rights of gay people to marry each other. They are human beings and deserve equal rights to any other american citizen. However, i DO have a problem when those rallies turn into sex parties with nudity and open sex in public, and as I said earlier, I once attended one where gays openly had sex in front of children and NO ONE seemed to have any problem with it.
Sorry for the delay guys, been nursing some kind of fever/headache and I think I'll go back to bed despite just having slept 12 hours....

I met up with Spideyboy yesterday for the rally and I would have LOVED to have some nudity allowed on my part! It was 90 degrees yesterday! :cmad:

Apparently also missed the sex party. Drat.

:oldrazz:

[Kelly]

The gay rights movement is not smacking crosses out of old womens hands???

I have seen video of exactly that.

You see, this is the problem, and why you arent advancing quicker. The gay rights movement itself should stand up and harshly criticize events like what happened to that old lady, but instead you just say "oh, I didnt do that, so you cant blame the cause". Is no one in charge? Does the buck stop nowhere? If the leaders of this movement do not come out and set RULES for its people to follow, then the movement will be blamed every time someone steps out of line.


Do you have ANY, ANY actual sources to show this besides you saying it happened? Because if you don't......I find it VERY hard to believe that happened and it was not noted on the news.

[Heretic]

i wasn't aware of it happening. and yes they HAVE spoke out against attacking others. they just did yesterday. Please stop acting like you know about everything going on.

I dont know everything that is going on...and neither you do. You arent even aware of the violence that your cause is committing against the opposing side.

If the leaders of the movement are speaking up against this nonsense then they need to speak louder. You cant just complain and say "we know were right" and expect the christians to just be okay with it. The more violence, and the less respect that you show their religion, the more vigor they will have in protesting your cause.

[The Senator]

In my opinion, the gay rights movement has proved that it is more concerned about covering its own asses in the fallout of Proposition 8, rather than trying to dispute the people who caused this amendment to pass. Homosexuals SHOULD be boycotting the Mormon church and every organization which has benefited financially from it. The Mormon church was the group which poured the most money into this, they were the ones who had the audacity to compare homosexuality to bestiality on statewide television, and they are the ones who continue to perpetuate fear and anxiety over homosexuals within their congregations. Those at the forefront of the campaign against Prop 8 should be OUTRAGED at the lies and smears being thrown around by the Mormon church. But instead, they're more worried about "perceived bigotry" against religious folks, further hindering any advancements which could be made.

[BlackLantern]

Religion is still a powerful force in this country....jman, you may consider it a fake idol, but millions of people (registered voters) see that as a sign of their faith....Heretic made a good point, trying to demonize your opponents to get your point across is a bad strategy...regardless of your stance on an argument...

[The Senator]

Religion is still a powerful force in this country....jman, you may consider it a fake idol, but millions of people (registered voters) see that as a sign of their faith....Heretic made a good point, trying to demonize your opponents to get your point across is a bad strategy...regardless of your stance on an argument...

I called it a "fake idol" because it was made of plastic, not because of what it represented... but I took that part out of my post...

[Heretic]

Jman, youre wrong.

Spending the next few months spitting venom at religious folks for how the mormon church wrong you will do nothing but organize ALL religious groups against you.

Instead, you should allow NON gays to smear the Mormons. I guarantee you that any left wing group would take up the cause. And like I said earlier, any dirt that got dug up on Mitt Romney would be great for your cause, but the gay movement should not be at the forefront of those attacks.

Meanwhile, your outreach should continue in professional, peaceful and respectful ways.

[spideyboy_1111]

Heres the thing Spidey.....


I will fight for people's right to gay marriage, as well as other rights. I will fight for people to vote their hearts, whether their heart is from the end of the spectrum of God or not....


I have no problem at all with the protesting, but when it turns ugly.....yeah I have a problem with that. And yes, an elderly woman of 69 was spit on and the cross she was carrying was knocked out of her hand. I do not believe that something that "will in fact" come about for you, needs to have this on its record. That does not help your cause at all.

Many homosexuals are beaten, and even killed for their lifestyle.....laws have been put in place for just this thing, as it should be. This will pass but if you want to take away people's freedom to vote in the way they want to vote because they feel that their religious beliefs fall the way they are voting. Sorry, you lose my respect in discussing this with you.

I believe you should have the right to marry. I believe you should have the rights that married couples have. But, I will not trample on people's religious beliefs to give you that right. I will allow our judicial and legislative system to bring that about, and I will expect our executive branch to carry out that law..........but I'm not going to take away someone else's freedom to do that. My ancestors came to this country as Quakers from Ireland because they were persecuted for their beliefs. They wanted the freedom to follow their beliefs..........I'm not going to take that away from anyone, in order for others to get what they want....

I'm aware of incidents like that not helping the cause. And not that it changes much in the public eye, but what exactly was the circumstance? was the elderly woman yelling hate chants and protesting right back? because if that was the case then i could easily see something like that happening. Now if it was an elderly woman walking across the street holding her rosary beads, that's something else entirely and quite disgusting. where was this report at anyway?

Sorry you feel that way, but i firmly believe in a separation of church and state, one should not be allowed to affect the other. This to me is not about taking away peoples beliefs, but when you are being persecuted for who you are, and something you can not help, just because a book says those people can think that way? that's pretty upsetting, esp when people throw out "well that's there religion, i have to accept that" I don't care what ones religion is, if your putting down and discriminating another group its wrong in the eyes of the law and it should always be. Christianity, nor any other religions beliefs should ever be law in the United States, even when voted upon.

[The Senator]

Jman, youre wrong.

Spending the next few months spitting venom at religious folks for how the mormon church wrong you will do nothing but organize ALL religious groups against you.

Instead, you should allow NON gays to smear the Mormons. I guarantee you that any left wing group would take up the cause. And like I said earlier, any dirt that got dug up on Mitt Romney would be great for your cause, but the gay movement should not be at the forefront of those attacks.

Meanwhile, your outreach should continue in professional, peaceful and respectful ways.

No, I think homosexuals should be a part of a boycott against the Mormon church. They're the ones responsible for fueling the hateful, ignorant campaign against keeping gay marriage legal in California. Why should we concede defeat to them by investing in Bain Capital, or spending a night at a Mariott, or vacationing in Salt Lake City? Why should we continue to give them money to use against us?

[BlackLantern]

...but there are just as many people who are not religious at all, who don't support gay marriage or believe in gay rights....

[Kelly]

...but there are just as many people who are not religious at all, who don't support gay marriage or believe in gay rights....


And there are many who believe themselves as people of faith.....I'm one of them.............who do believe they deserve equal rights, and yes my faith does influence my decisions, in my life, in my votes etc........and I happen to believe that my rights as well as those we are debating here today can co-exist. You don't have to take away one to have the other.

[spideyboy_1111]

I dont know everything that is going on...and neither you do. You arent even aware of the violence that your cause is committing against the opposing side.

If the leaders of the movement are speaking up against this nonsense then they need to speak louder. You cant just complain and say "we know were right" and expect the christians to just be okay with it. The more violence, and the less respect that you show their religion, the more vigor they will have in protesting your cause.

there's violence on both sides, and there will always be when one side is hated by the other. I can't think of a situation in history where a fight for rights hasn't been a little violent. But the violence we've seen with this movement has been EXTREMELY tame and nothing like the past. It's been overall VERY peaceful. And i can't express that enough, stop concentrating on a few negative things, there's been far more violence towards the other side then ours. In fact this old lady incident is the first ive heard of a direct attack, ive heard about people who are against us punching people in the face, causing a broken nose etc.. but this is the first act of violence ive heard our side do. Personally any fight has casualties, ours has been EXTREMELY tame and i can't say that enough... but what your pretty much asking for is like civilians not being hurt in a war... you can try your hardest out there but things will still happen, no matter how hard you try. But I can tell you right now, from the heart of the protests, have been very peaceful after the first 2 days, and the news has actually commended us for it. They spoke quite clearly about not getting violent yesterday... But no matter how clear one speaks, there will always be *******s.

[spideyboy_1111]

Jman, youre wrong.

Spending the next few months spitting venom at religious folks for how the mormon church wrong you will do nothing but organize ALL religious groups against you.

Instead, you should allow NON gays to smear the Mormons. I guarantee you that any left wing group would take up the cause. And like I said earlier, any dirt that got dug up on Mitt Romney would be great for your cause, but the gay movement should not be at the forefront of those attacks.

Meanwhile, your outreach should continue in professional, peaceful and respectful ways.

Non gays are smearing mormons... :o hell ive seen some mormons smear mormons. Problem is if your a gay activist, strait or gay, your lumped in the same group, but alot of strait people have spoken out, so not really sure why your acting like there not.

[Kelly]

there's violence on both sides, and there will always be when one side is hated by the other. I can't think of a situation in history where a fight for rights hasn't been a little violent. But the violence we've seen with this movement has been EXTREMELY tame and nothing like the past. It's been overall VERY peaceful. And i can't express that enough, stop concentrating on a few negative things, there's been far more violence towards the other side then ours. In fact this old lady incident is the first ive heard of a direct attack, ive heard about people who are against us punching people in the face, causing a broken nose etc.. but this is the first act of violence ive heard our side do. Personally any fight has casualties, ours has been EXTREMELY tame and i can't say that enough... but what your pretty much asking for is like civilians not being hurt in a war... you can try your hardest out there but things will still happen, no matter how hard you try. But I can tell you right now, from the heart of the protests, have been very peaceful after the first 2 days, and the news has actually commended us for it. They spoke quite clearly about not getting violent yesterday... But no matter how clear one speaks, there will always be *******s.


As far as violence against gays....yes, you are correct.


But, I have not yet seen violence coming from churchgoers during this time of turmoil.

[spideyboy_1111]

...but there are just as many people who are not religious at all, who don't support gay marriage or believe in gay rights....

actually thats not true.. haha there is totally not just as many. Infact i can't think of one atheist who blatantly speaks out against gay rights. And for those who are, have really nothing to back it up with other then there dislikes for gays... most people back it up with religion, there is not nearly as many "non religious" people who are against gay marriage then religious. so not sure where the hell your pulling your information from.

[spideyboy_1111]

As far as violence against gays....yes, you are correct.


But, I have not yet seen violence coming from churchgoers during this time of turmoil.

what exactly do you call a church goer? a priest beating some one? a nun? a girl dressed in her sunday school clothes?


the first protest at the mormon temple had 3 latinos who happened to be church goers, hopped out of there truck verbally abused us, we centered around the car, and one punched a guy in the face. No one physically attacked them at all.

later that night, some mormon latinos came by and punched a woman in the face who wouldnt take down a poster on the church gate.

[BlackLantern]

but you can't say every person who as anti-gay marriage is using religion as their reason for that...

as a neutral party in all of this, I hope this gets worked out and resolved sooner rather than later...and that no serious violence or confrontations occur....

[Kelly]

what exactly do you call a church goer? a priest beating some one? a nun? a girl dressed in her sunday school clothes?


the first protest at the mormon temple had 3 latinos who happened to be church goers, hopped out of there truck verbally abused us, we centered around the car, and one punched a guy in the face. No one physically attacked them at all.

later that night, some mormon latinos came by and punched a woman in the face who wouldnt take down a poster on the church gate.


As I said...."I had not seen any...." not that there hadn't been any.....You might want to carry a video camera with you next time....that would be powerful footage.

Churchgoers as in people who go to church.

[spideyboy_1111]

but you can't say every person who as anti-gay marriage is using religion as their reason for that...

as a neutral party in all of this, I hope this gets worked out and resolved sooner rather than later...and that no serious violence or confrontations occur....

no but i can say from personal experience that i've not once argued with someone who was anti-gay marriage who didn't back it up with religion. And i've argued with quite alot.

Why do all of you act like violence is escalating? its not

[BlackLantern]

I'm not saying it's escalating at all....this is just a volatile situation and I hope nothing serious happens to change the perception of what's at stake

[spideyboy_1111]

As I said...."I had not seen any...." not that there hadn't been any.....You might want to carry a video camera with you next time....that would be powerful footage.

Churchgoers as in people who go to church.

http://www.ktla.com/news

click "news", "local news" and then type in "gay protest mormon church" in the video search. it should be the 2nd one. "prop 8 protestors rally at mormon church"

[Kelly]

no but i can say from personal experience that i've not once argued with someone who was anti-gay marriage who didn't back it up with religion. And i've argued with quite alot.

Why do all of you act like violence is escalating? its not

I have not used the word escalating or even implied that it was.....so "all of you" is incorrect. I gave "one" example.....and that example played out even with the reporter that was there that tried to interview the woman.....so in "that" case....one that was televised in its entirety on several news stations, national news, and now on you tube......it doesn't have to escalate, that one instance can do quite a bit of damage.

One woman's food strike in prison for holding a rally outside the white house was what forced the vote in the senate for "women's suffrage" so "one" instance can do alot, especially when it is played over and over and over again. I just don't think that there is a need for that in order to get ones voice out there, especially when it shows your voice in a very negative light.

[spideyboy_1111]

I'm not saying it's escalating at all....this is just a volatile situation and I hope nothing serious happens to change the perception of what's at stake

im just saying, alot of people keep speaking about violence on here, pushing it's importance and it's starting to sound like its escalating and its not. last i want are people to focus on the violence that really isn't happening all that much. It make things sound much worse then what it is.

[spideyboy_1111]

I have not used the word escalating or even implied that it was.....so "all of you" is incorrect. I gave "one" example.....and that example played out even with the reporter that was there that tried to interview the woman.....so in "that" case....one that was televised in its entirety on several news stations, national news, and now on you tube......it doesn't have to escalate, that one instance can do quite a bit of damage.

One woman's food strike in prison for holding a rally outside the white house was what forced the vote in the senate for "women's suffrage" so "one" instance can do alot, especially when it is played over and over and over again. I just don't think that there is a need for that in order to get ones voice out there, especially when it shows your voice in a very negative light.

well where are you from? could be your news source. If you live in an area with alot of religious people would probably find it offensive, the more you will probably see news focused on smearing us, rather then fighting our cause.

it's funny because last night i was looking for news on what was happening back home in ohio... Columbus and Cincinnati did a good report on it, but in the more rural areas like my hometowns news which would be out of dayton, didn't even have the events as headlines. they put someone shooting a dog and several other news stories that imo were not nearly as big as a nationwide protest, one in which actually happened in the very city the news was from. In fact it wasn't even a headline, i had to search it..

[Kelly]

http://www.ktla.com/news

click "news", "local news" and then type in "gay protest mormon church" in the video search. it should be the 2nd one. "prop 8 protestors rally at mormon church"


That was terrible what happened, but I don't see that as very strong evidence.......sorry.......that will hold up in a court of law as a hate crime, but not as Mormon's doing the hate crime.


And let me say this......I'm not in any way saying that members of a church, whatever church, are not being violent towards these protests what I am saying is as much media is there.....that is not being seen. I have not seen that particular incident on any national news.....if it could be proven that those men were Mormon or members of that church......the news would be all over it.

[Kelly]

well where are you from? could be your news source. If you live in an area with alot of religious people would probably find it offensive, the more you will probably see news focused on smearing us, rather then fighting our cause.

it's funny because last night i was looking for news on what was happening back home in ohio... Columbus and Cincinnati did a good report on it, but in the more rural areas like my hometowns news which would be out of dayton, didn't even have the events as headlines. they put someone shooting a dog and several other news stories that imo were not nearly as big as a nationwide protest, one in which actually happened in the very city the news was from. In fact it wasn't even a headline, i had to search it..


I'm from Houston. My news sources are CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, CNBC, PBS, FOX, MSNBC and NPR (National Public Radio) I'm a Political Geography teacher......I watch news almost every hour other than when I'm teaching.........I read online the New York Times, Chicago Sun, Wallstreet, and Houston Chronicle.

[spideyboy_1111]

That was terrible what happened, but I don't see that as very strong evidence.......sorry.......that will hold up in a court of law as a hate crime, but not as Mormon's doing the hate crime.


And let me say this......I'm not in any way saying that members of a church, whatever church, are not being violent towards these protests what I am saying is as much media is there.....that is not being seen. I have not seen that particular incident on any national news.....if it could be proven that those men were Mormon or members of that church......the news would be all over it.

? again what do you call evidence? a priest doing the punching?

[spideyboy_1111]

I'm from Houston. My news sources are CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, CNBC, PBS, FOX, MSNBC and NPR (National Public Radio) I'm a Political Geography teacher......I watch news almost every hour other than when I'm teaching.........I read online the New York Times, Chicago Sun, Wallstreet, and Houston Chronicle.

and where did this old lady incident happen at?

[Kelly]

and where did this old lady incident happen at?


Palm Springs, Florida

[spideyboy_1111]

Palm Springs, Florida

just found the video... and there's alot wrong with it, on pretty much all sides.

1) there seems to have been an altercation before hand
2) who's smart idea was it to do a news cast in the middle of a NO crowed about a woman who is against them?
3) it completely looks like people were wanting media attention
4) everything is out of control, and thats not how the protests here have been going
5) the protesters should have left them alone or stood back or something they were definately being rude and coming off ways that they shouldnt...

but again... wtf? haha i mean seriously, what did the news reporters think would happen when you have an old lady being interviewed about her feelings of discrimination towards the people shes surrounded by?

its kinda like jumping into a shark tank

organized protests have been much better here, police try to make sure there's a separation of both sides so altercations don't happen.

but i do find it disgusting for them to jump on the cross afterwords, that's not helping the cause at all. But the woman imo walking right in front of them, is in a way kinda asking for it. People have the right to protest right back, but i just honestly hate the fact they use religion as a shield.


on second viewing.. it kinda makes me laugh (flame me if you want) but the woman is demanding attention in the interview... "you'll have to print this" it's like no really? your a christian against gay marriage? go figure...never heard that one before.

though i do think people should be respectable on both sides, which clearly there not. But i agree that incident should have never happened, it just spawns hate.

[Heretic]

Do you feel that an openly gay couple making out as they walk past some angry rednecks are "asking to get beat up".

No, of course you dont. That woman was not asking to get assaulted.

[The Senator]

Do you feel that an openly gay couple making out as they walk past some angry rednecks are "asking to get beat up".

Yes, I do.


No, of course you dont.

Wait... I posted that above part before the all-knowing Heretic had a chance to answer the question for me... I rescind my previous statement. :dry:

[spideyboy_1111]

Do you feel that an openly gay couple making out as they walk past some angry rednecks are "asking to get beat up".

No, of course you dont. That woman was not asking to get assaulted.
actually i kinda do... why would someone make out in front of people that want to beat you up? its just stupid and also provoking.

thats like asking a black guy to go to a clan meeting.

[Kelly]

Well, with all due respect.......................apparently we watched 2 different videos.

1. What kind of altercation will you have with a 69 year old woman and her cross....and "seems" to have been is weak at best...
2. That was where the news was, so of course they are going to take the camera right into it....hello.............the news?
3. That is a duh.....
4. Never said this was an indication as to how "all" or even "a few" of the rallies have been going...
5. Yes....

Again, that is what the news does.......you seriously think they weren't eating that up, as they were watching the feed?

I was not using this incident to prove anything, I just simply used it as an example of what can be used against the "gay rights" issue.....

No it shouldn't have happened, but it did........and "one" incident can turn alot of people off........

[Heretic]

Wait...so you truly believe that if a gay couple is openly expressing their love, and a group of rednecks happen to be near them, that the gay couple IS ASKING to get assaulted?

What if a sexy woman walks by a lonely man wearing a skimpy outfit? She deserves to get raped?

This is crazy. There is no way that any person in their right mind believes that a person deserves to get assaulted merely because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[BlackLantern]

I went to a Klan meeting once...I was told there would be pie....I like pie...but I don't like the Klan, so I left

[spideyboy_1111]

I went to a Klan meeting once...I was told there would be pie....I like pie...but I don't like the Klan, so I left

lol mmmm pie

[Anita18]

Wait...so you truly believe that if a gay couple is openly expressing their love, and a group of rednecks happen to be near them, that the gay couple IS ASKING to get assaulted?

What if a sexy woman walks by a lonely man wearing a skimpy outfit? She deserves to get raped?

This is crazy. There is no way that any person in their right mind believes that a person deserves to get assaulted merely because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.
As a woman, I agree. I'm tremendously offended when someone tells me I can't do something because it might "send the wrong message to men."

Should a gay couple be making out in a church? Of course not. But they SHOULD be able to walk around holding hands IN PUBLIC without fearing for their safety.

And yesterday, on the subway to the rally, there were two trucker/redneck-looking men sitting behind me. Like, wife-beater-and-trucker-hat-wearing, bearded, manly men. And one had his arm around the other. It was awesome. :woot:

[The Senator]

Wait...so you truly believe that if a gay couple is openly expressing their love, and a group of rednecks happen to be near them, that the gay couple IS ASKING to get assaulted?

Yes. Even if we were to legalize gay marriage nationwide, there are still parts of the country where I would advise a homosexual couple not to publicly display their affection for one another. Much like there are parts of the country where I would tell African Americans not to walk around in broad daylight. Ignorance will never be defeated in its entirety.


What if a sexy woman walks by a lonely man wearing a skimpy outfit? She deserves to get raped?

This example is incomparable to the previous examples, but you get an extra three points for effort :up:

[The Senator]

I went to a Klan meeting once...I was told there would be pie....I like pie...but I don't like the Klan, so I left

If I became President, you could have had all the pie you wanted... but that black dude stole the election from me... :csad:

[spideyboy_1111]

Wait...so you truly believe that if a gay couple is openly expressing their love, and a group of rednecks happen to be near them, that the gay couple IS ASKING to get assaulted?

What if a sexy woman walks by a lonely man wearing a skimpy outfit? She deserves to get raped?

This is crazy. There is no way that any person in their right mind believes that a person deserves to get assaulted merely because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

usually gay people are smart enough not to make out in a red neck area. :o and if they decide to it usually is to provoke them. There not asking for the crap to be kicked out of them, but they know they'd be provoking them.

[The Senator]

usually gay people are smart enough not to make out in a red neck area. :o and if they decide to it usually is to provoke them. There not asking for the crap to be kicked out of them, but they know they'd be provoking them.

I went to Birmingham, AL two years ago with a group of my gay friends... and it didn't take long for us to start acting straight...

[BlackLantern]

If I became President, you could have had all the pie you wanted... but that black dude stole the election from me... :csad:

I shall conduct a fact-finding mission in regards to this pie issue....

[Anita18]

usually gay people are smart enough not to make out in a red neck area. :o and if they decide to it usually is to provoke them. There not asking for the crap to be kicked out of them, but they know they'd be provoking them.
Well "group of rednecks" is way different than "redneck area." As far as you know, maybe that group of rednecks is gay too. :hehe:

[The Senator]

Well "group of rednecks" is way different than "redneck area." As far as you know, maybe that group of rednecks is gay too. :hehe:

Being gay requires a lot of self respect, so I doubt there are many gay rednecks out there...

:oldrazz:

[spideyboy_1111]

As a woman, I agree. I'm tremendously offended when someone tells me I can't do something because it might "send the wrong message to men."

Should a gay couple be making out in a church? Of course not. But they SHOULD be able to walk around holding hands IN PUBLIC without fearing for their safety.

And yesterday, on the subway to the rally, there were two trucker/redneck-looking men sitting behind me. Like, wife-beater-and-trucker-hat-wearing, bearded, manly men. And one had his arm around the other. It was awesome. :woot:

yes we should, unfortunately most of us are scared to... its not exactly fun to be stared at or fear rednecks for tying us up and dragging our bodies with there trucks.

haha nice, anita you were fun yesterday :D. It's like when i saw 2 "brothers" making out haha

[The Senator]

I shall conduct a fact-finding mission in regards to this pie issue....

The fact is, Obama opposes free pie for all, which is interesting considering he's a communist (according to Rush Limbaugh, anyway, and we all know he is a beacon of intellectual honesty). Then again, perhaps his decision to not give us all free pie is a reflection of his hidden terrorist side (and since Sarah Palin is such a beacon of intellectualism herself, I bet we can assume Obama's terrorism will come into light the moment he takes office).

[BlackLantern]

Free pie is good, but I have no issue with paying for pie....of course is there is only one piece left and someone stands in my way, whether they are gay or straight, is going down....No one stands between me and pie

[Kelly]

I'm hungry....

[spideyboy_1111]

me too... and i don't know what i feel like eating :(

[Paradoxium]

I am hungry too, but I thinking going for a 6th meal is overdoing it :(

[BlackLantern]

If this whole gay marriage thing comes off, it'd be smart of someone to start a wedding planning business that caters to the gay community....

[Asteroid-Man]

Yes. Even if we were to legalize gay marriage nationwide, there are still parts of the country where I would advise a homosexual couple not to publicly display their affection for one another. Much like there are parts of the country where I would tell African Americans not to walk around in broad daylight. Ignorance will never be defeated in its entirety.



This example is incomparable to the previous examples, but you get an extra three points for effort :up:
If people never stood up for their rights, you think there would EVER be a black president?

[spideyboy_1111]

can we just ship all people who want to discriminate against anyone.. away?

[Asteroid-Man]

Give 'em to Alaska!

EDIT: That's discriminatory to Alaska.... damn. SO CLOSE!!!

[Paradoxium]

Lets start by shipping the people who have a discriminatory hate towards Bush :woot:

[spideyboy_1111]

Lets start by shipping the people who have a discriminatory hate towards Bush :woot:

but all that will be left is bush and a few chickens. :huh:

[The Senator]

If The Secessionist gets his way, his wife will help make Alaska secede from the union in the coming year or so... so I see no problem with planning an exodus for bigots to Alaska...

[spideyboy_1111]

yay for jesus land

[The Senator]

I prefer the name "Christopia." Or "Christland."

[spideyboy_1111]

"Christopia" the land of the hypo-christs!

[Ion Kenshin]

If this whole gay marriage thing comes off, it'd be smart of someone to start a wedding planning business that caters to the gay community....
im a pastry chef i'd totally do it

[Kelly]

can we just ship all people who want to discriminate against anyone.. away?


How does this work?

Do we send away....

1. Only those who act on their discrimination....
2. Those who speak of it....
3. Those who are, but say they aren't...
4. Those who think they are above such things....but in reality are....
5. Or do we get to choose who we discriminate against...


I dare say, there would be few people left......

[Paradoxium]

How does this work?

Do we send away....

1. Only those who act on their discrimination....
2. Those who speak of it....
3. Those who are, but say they aren't...
4. Those who think they are above such things....but in reality are....
5. Or do we get to choose who we discriminate against...


I dare say, there would be few people left......Old crippled anorexic minority transsexuals who are deaf, balding, and reads Fantastic Four comics drawn by Rob Liefield, who also happens to be lactose intolerant? :huh:

[BlackLantern]

im a pastry chef i'd totally do it

If you can bake a pastry shaped like a womans "bajingo" or a mans' "how-do-you-do" it could work...(the terms are for the Scrubs fans)

I'm talking doing some seriously extravagant stuff...like a gay couple that wants a Tiger to feast on a gazelle at the exact moment they kiss to consecrate their union.....

[Kelly]

Old crippled anorexic minority transsexuals who are deaf, balding, and reads Fantastic Four comics drawn by Rob Liefield, who also happens to be lactose intolerant? :huh:


So we can discriminate against posters named Thing2005 aka Carp Man???