Discussion: Gay Rights II [Archive] - Page 18

spideyboy_1111

12-27-2008, 01:56 PM

Agreed. During the Civil Rights Movement who had more success? Dr.King's coalition or the Black Panthers? Social change cannot be forced down people's throats. Especially when it is something that most people cannot understand. Most people cannot relate to homosexuality. It is that simple. Thus you have to ease them into it. Not tell them, "Accept us or you're a bigot!"

to be fair... we have been fighting for our rights heavily for about 50 years... its been an on going battle for quite a while. you can't look at each "right" we are asking for as an individual movement. its been one big movement all along. and we've actually been going pretty damn slow at it. we first started with public safety, then careers, housing, children, unity, equality and now marriage. it's been a relatively slow battle, most people are just ignorant to it.

I really suggest people see MILK, it was an extremely relevant movie and had alot of modern day undertones that we are still facing today.

spideyboy_1111

12-27-2008, 01:58 PM

I never understood the mistreatment of anyone, sure if you don't understand it and it weird you out thats fine, but to deny someone rights is just cruel and disgusting.

I think that some "conservative" people might view this "push" as an attack of their way of life and this will probably escalate drastically.

republicans and conservatives tend to think any "change" is an attack :o

spideyboy_1111

12-27-2008, 02:10 PM

on a side note. i was just talking to a friend of mine, who is a twin, and he and his brother are both gay and use to work at a franchised ice cream chain, here in ohio. Well, when he was promoted to one of the 2 supervisors the other supervisor, a female, would consistently talk bad about him for being gay and "disgusting" to the people he was the boss of. Well his workers told him about it, and he went to the manager... the manager said "o i didn't know you were gay, you can't be "out" at work..." and that he couldn't do anything about it. so my friend quit, called the main heads of the franchises and they said they couldn't do anything about it due to the fact the ice cream place was a franchise. A few weeks later they found enough "reason" to apparently fire his gay twin too.

The Senator

12-27-2008, 02:42 PM

BILL O'REILLY AND KIRK CAMERON DISCUSS GAY MARRIAGE
x-DGMTtqEbk

:facepalm

Nearly six and a half minutes of your life you'll never get back.

It surprises me that few Christians realize that Kirk Cameron is only lobbying on the behalf of the great Jebus because he can't make money elsewhere.

StorminNorman

12-27-2008, 02:50 PM

I see no reason to assume Cameron is not a believer.

BlackLantern

12-27-2008, 02:51 PM

He is pretty earnest about it....apparently he goes and and does "witnessing" at random times

spideyboy_1111

12-27-2008, 02:53 PM

i don't think jman implied kirk wasn't a believer.. just that he's using his belief as a way to stay in public eye... (if one would call it that)

BlackLantern

12-27-2008, 03:06 PM

I'm not sure....I think he's using whatever notoriety he had to spread the word....he seems to be big on people going out and spreading the "Word"

spideyboy_1111

12-27-2008, 03:14 PM

unfortunately Christians use the word "spread" but what they really do is "push".

BlackLantern

12-27-2008, 03:22 PM

I have an issue with any faith that actively "recruits"....Hindus don't recruit, if you want to be a Hindu fine, if you don't that's fine too

spideyboy_1111

12-27-2008, 03:30 PM

I have an issue with any faith that actively "recruits"....Hindus don't recruit, if you want to be a Hindu fine, if you don't that's fine too

agrees, Christianity has been around for hundreds of years, the word is out there, if people want to be a Christian, they will be a Christian. do not force your religion upon me. Jesus wanted his message spread, and it was. But i don't think he wanted it to be a "recruitment" i was watching something on xmas, randomly on the 700 club about a non religious man who didnt go to church with the rest of his family. But he befriended a pastor who be came his best friend. they never talked about religion, and the pastor did not pressure him. but when his friend needed help he wasn't afraid to give religious advice. This eventually enlightened the man to go to church and "accept god" in his life. This i believe is how christians should spread there word... not actively force or recruit. just open up there ideals to people who may need guidance in there life, when showing signs of it. Not those who are just walking down the street and simply want to go to where there going and not get hassled by a "recruiter" on the street, or be able to live peacefully in there home without a door to door mormon showing up, or a villager in a third world country enjoying there old practices...

i'm fine with missionaries traveling to the poor areas and helping them out, they do alot of good an amazing things for those people, but i don't feel like it should ever come off as a wolf in sheeps clothing. they should not be pressing there religion on those people while helping them. it's like saying "look at us nice Christians and how were able to help you out because it's gods will for us to.. u should join us because were helping you" and that just doesnt sit well with me.

Bathead

12-27-2008, 03:31 PM

Kirk Cameron? You mean Bibleman? Honestly, I'm not mocking his beliefs when I say this, but he's an idiot.

danoyse

12-27-2008, 03:38 PM

I see no reason to assume Cameron is not a believer.

I believe he is - it's been well-documented how he became a born-again while starring on Growing Pains and drove the cast and the network up a wall. For example:

-he had his "girlfriend" on the show fired after learning she once posed for Playboy
-threw a fit over a scene where his character used a key to get into his girlfriend's apartment because it made him look like they were living together without being married
-his character was a troublemaker, he started to refuse to play those scenes any more

It had gotten to the point that Alan Thicke, who played his father, took him aside and had long talk with him explaining that maybe he should start setting his career path elsewhere. He was destroying the show, the whole cast couldn't stand working with him anymore.

They had to write in Leonardo DiCaprio's character as a troubled kid Mike was counseling into the show because it was the only storyline they could get Cameron to agree on.

Kirk Cameron and his wife have done amazing work with terminally ill kids, and I know he's had some success with the Left Behind series and some other Christian-themed films, but I find his holier-than-thou attitude about his career, and especially his recent comments on O'Reilly deplorable.

BlackLantern

12-27-2008, 03:57 PM

Kirk Cameron? You mean Bibleman? Honestly, I'm not mocking his beliefs when I say this, but he's an idiot.

I think 'Bibleman' was the guy from 'charles in charge'...the annoying best friend...he became a friend of Jeebus as well

Matt

12-27-2008, 04:03 PM

I believe he is - it's been well-documented how he became a born-again while starring on Growing Pains and drove the cast and the network up a wall. For example:

-he had his "girlfriend" on the show fired after learning she once posed for Playboy
-threw a fit over a scene where his character used a key to get into his girlfriend's apartment because it made him look like they were living together without being married
-his character was a troublemaker, he started to refuse to play those scenes any more

It had gotten to the point that Alan Thicke, who played his father, took him aside and had long talk with him explaining that maybe he should start setting his career path elsewhere. He was destroying the show, the whole cast couldn't stand working with him anymore.

They had to write in Leonardo DiCaprio's character as a troubled kid Mike was counseling into the show because it was the only storyline they could get Cameron to agree on.

Kirk Cameron and his wife have done amazing work with terminally ill kids, and I know he's had some success with the Left Behind series and some other Christian-themed films, but I find his holier-than-thou attitude about his career, and especially his recent comments on O'Reilly deplorable.

Things we've learned from this thread:

- Tolerance should come from both sides.

- Kirk Cameron is kind of an ass hole.

- Danoyse knows way too much about Growing Pains :o

BlackLantern

12-27-2008, 04:10 PM

Things we've learned from this thread:

- Tolerance should come from both sides.

- Kirk Cameron is kind of an ass hole.

- Danoyse knows way too much about Growing Pains :o

I knew about the canning of the girlfriend from the E True Hollywood story of 'Growing Pains'

StorminNorman

12-27-2008, 04:16 PM

I heard rumors that ALF was canceled because he started to push Scientology on Max Wright.

Marx

12-27-2008, 04:24 PM

I heard rumors that ALF was canceled because he started to push Scientology on Max Wright.

Leave ALF out of this!

:oldrazz:

StorminNorman

12-27-2008, 04:42 PM

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/detpulsar/this-thread-is-gay1.jpg

Marx

12-27-2008, 04:47 PM

Ohhh...wow. That's just not right! :funny:

Holiday

12-27-2008, 05:06 PM

Kirk Cameron actually visited a church near my town about 6 or 7 years ago and spoke. I wanted to go and meet him but not to hear him talk about his faith or anything, but only because he was on Growing Pains. I'm glad I didn't go for that stupid reason.

Matt

12-27-2008, 05:13 PM

There's nothing stupid about wanting to meet Mike Seaver. Unfortunately the Mike Seaver we once knew is gone. :csad:

Holiday

12-27-2008, 05:18 PM

There's nothing stupid about wanting to meet Mike Seaver. Unfortunately the Mike Seaver we once knew is gone. :csad:

Well I would've felt silly saying, "Hey, yeah, God's great... by the way, whatever happened to Boner? Huh? Remember that guy?" :oldrazz:

Carcharodon

12-27-2008, 07:13 PM

danoyse

12-27-2008, 07:37 PM

- Danoyse knows way too much about Growing Pains :o

I'm a child of the 80s, Matt. :cwink:

And I learned all of that from the same episode of E True Hollywood Story that BL did.

Spider-Bite

12-27-2008, 08:19 PM

LOL man that Alf picture is priceless. Thanks for posting it Stormin

The Senator

12-27-2008, 11:15 PM

I see no reason to assume Cameron is not a believer.

Where the hell did I say that he wasn't? :huh:

The Senator

12-27-2008, 11:20 PM

I'm not sure....I think he's using whatever notoriety he had to spread the word....he seems to be big on people going out and spreading the "Word"

Correct. Except so-called Christians shouldn't be spreading the word of Christ in exchange for capital, which is exactly what Kirk Cameron is doing. His actions are anti-Christian, and while he may believe in the teachings of the Bible, he doesn't live his life by them. No one else would make movies, write books, or make public appearances on the behalf of Christianity while pocketing the proceeds in return.

Moreover, I doubt he would be doing the very same thing he is doing if it wasn't his last resort. You don't go from being a well-known child star to a wannabe Jesus freak overnight. He must have expelled his other options, and being a faithful Christian warrior must have been the only medium left he could have used to 1) keep his name in the public light, and 2) make a pretty decent profit.

Bathead

12-28-2008, 01:18 AM

I think 'Bibleman' was the guy from 'charles in charge'...the annoying best friend...he became a friend of Jeebus as well

I think you may be right. Cameron's still an idiot either way.

jaguarr

12-28-2008, 11:23 AM

unfortunately Christians use the word "spread" but what they really do is "push".

I find the word "harass" is more accurate than the word "push". "Annoy" may also be used, depending on your perspective. And Mike Seaver is dead.

jag

C.F. Kane

12-28-2008, 01:02 PM

I think 'Bibleman' was the guy from 'charles in charge'...the annoying best friend...he became a friend of Jeebus as well

Nope. This is the one and true Bibleman.

sTpLaw1C364

Ion Kenshin

12-28-2008, 01:08 PM

Nope. This is the one and true Bibleman.

sTpLaw1C364
um ...wow :wow:

Kelly

12-28-2008, 01:36 PM

Kirk Cameron? You mean Bibleman? Honestly, I'm not mocking his beliefs when I say this, but he's an idiot.

Krik Cameron isn't Bibleman, the guy off of "Eight Is Enough" the middle brother Willie Ames is Bibleman......and he is now in drug rehab....or just finished I believe.

spideyboy_1111

12-29-2008, 07:18 PM

I know two transvestite homosexual twins.
well wouldn't surprise me. as much as twins can be different, genetically speaking there the same, and there's more gay twin brothers/sisters than there are one gay/one strait so i'd assume the need to feel like a transvestite could easily follow the same suit.

Carcharodon

12-29-2008, 08:18 PM

well wouldn't surprise me. as much as twins can be different, genetically speaking there the same, and there's more gay twin brothers/sisters than there are one gay/one strait so i'd assume the need to feel like a transvestite could easily follow the same suit.Do you have a source for that? I'm just curious.

CaptainClown

12-29-2008, 08:52 PM

Do you have a source for that? I'm just curious.
well thats if we believe homosexuality is a gene...which is entirely possible.

I think its natures way of evening out overpopulation...but thats just crazy ol captain clown

wiegeabo

12-29-2008, 09:21 PM

I tend to favor the idea that homosexuality is genetic. They found the structure of gay men and women to be noticeably different from straight men and women.

Environmental factors probably have some play, but if neural structural differences are a consistent finding among homosexuals, it's most likely genetic. Which means it's not a choice like so many claim. Some may choose, but certainly not all. Which makes the lack of equal rights so bad since those laws are at least supposed to protect us from discrimination from differences due to birth.

Carcharodon

12-29-2008, 11:21 PM

well thats if we believe homosexuality is a gene...which is entirely possible.If there is a genetic component, we should see trends in heritability. I just don't know how many reliable studies there have been.

Then again, a study of pedigrees, for example, would be inadequate...because social implications mean that you'd be hard-pressed to identify those who were actually gay and in the closet. Maybe modes of heritability of that trait will be easier to determine and trace as being gay becomes more socially acceptable. Of course, then you'd have less gay men reproducing...another road block leading to several dead-ends of lineages.

What a catch 22!

CaptainClown

12-29-2008, 11:27 PM

If there is a genetic component, we should see trends in heritability. I just don't know how many reliable studies there have been.
We also don't know how many people will willingly admit to being homosexual to do an actual study. It would also probably come with a lot of protest and just a lot of bad vibes

Marx

12-30-2008, 12:11 AM

NJ RULES AGAINST CHURCH GROUP IN GAY RIGHTS CASE
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/30/nj-rules-against-church-g_n_154128.html

A church group that owns beachfront property discriminated against a lesbian couple by not allowing them to rent the locale for their civil union ceremony, a New Jersey department ruled Monday in a case that has become a flash point in the nation's gay rights battle.

The New Jersey Division on Civil Rights said its investigation found that the refusal of the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association to rent the oceanfront spot to the couple for their same-sex union in March 2007 violated the public accommodation provisions of the state's Law Against Discrimination.

While the ruling is decisively in favor of the couple, Harriet Bernstein and Luisa Paster, it does not end the case. An administrative law judge still must decide on a remedy for the parties.

"What this case has always been about from my clients' perspective has been equality," said Larry Lustberg, the lawyer for the couple. He said they will seek an order that requires the pavilion to be "open to all on an equal basis."

Brian Raum, a lawyer for the Alliance Defense Fund, a Scottsdale, Ariz.-based group that represents the Methodist organization, Camp Meeting Association, said his clients would keep pushing back against being forced to allow civil unions on the property.

wiegeabo

12-30-2008, 12:22 AM

Alliance Defense Fund. :rolleyes:

Sounds like their collecting for the war effort.

Homosexual rights groups need to have their own title with some combination of the words family, defense, and/or protection.

The Family Equality Defense and Protection Alliance. Or something where the initials spell out an easy to remember word.

Marx

12-30-2008, 12:28 AM

Mister Sinister

12-30-2008, 06:04 AM

Edit: Probably went a little too far

spideyboy_1111

12-30-2008, 06:34 PM

Do you have a source for that? I'm just curious.

i do not, but just look up homosexuality in twins... ive heard several times that there are more gay twins then strait/gay twins

spideyboy_1111

12-30-2008, 06:36 PM

If there is a genetic component, we should see trends in heritability. I just don't know how many reliable studies there have been.

Then again, a study of pedigrees, for example, would be inadequate...because social implications mean that you'd be hard-pressed to identify those who were actually gay and in the closet. Maybe modes of heritability of that trait will be easier to determine and trace as being gay becomes more socially acceptable. Of course, then you'd have less gay men reproducing...another road block leading to several dead-ends of lineages.

What a catch 22!

saying a "gay gene" is inherited is a bit ridiculous too though. considering strait parents make gay kids.

BlackLantern

12-30-2008, 06:42 PM

....let's simplify it, what if sexuality is genetic? if so, can it be altered? should it be altered?

wiegeabo

12-30-2008, 06:50 PM

That opens up a whole thread of discussion on its own.

Should we be able to choose our child's sexuality?

What about hair color?
Eye color?
Skin color?
Height?
The way they look?

At some point it wouldn't be having children, it would just be growing a person.

The ironic thing is, those conservatives against homosexuality, like those in the 'family defense' groups, would probably lobby for the ability to genetically determine sexuality, while hypercritically arguing against things like stem cell research and the other genetic manipulations I mentioned.

Carcharodon

12-30-2008, 07:02 PM

saying a "gay gene" is inherited is a bit ridiculous too though. considering strait parents make gay kids.Yeah. It's not like there's such a thing as recessive alleles in populations. I mean really, it's not like two brown-haired individuals can have a blonde baby.

Right?

:dry:

CaptainClown

12-30-2008, 07:04 PM

....let's simplify it, what if sexuality is genetic? if so, can it be altered? should it be altered?
That's a whole can of beans. It is like in X-men 3 and they found the cure for the mutant gene, should you take the "cure". Combined with Gattaca in which genetic altering will lead to a new kind of prejudice.

CaptainClown

12-30-2008, 07:05 PM

saying a "gay gene" is inherited is a bit ridiculous too though. considering strait parents make gay kids.
we don't know they are straight, there are many homosexual people out there with families.

Carcharodon

12-30-2008, 07:14 PM

we don't know they are straight, there are many homosexual people out there with families.I just don't think he understands that 50% of your genes come from your mother and 50% come from your father (what do those numbers add up to again?)...so if there IS a gay gene (or genes), it's probably inherited.

Your parents don't have to express a phenotype in order to pass on the appropriate genotype, say, in the form of a recessive allele. I'm certain it's more complicated than that, but his reasoning is completely flawed.

CaptainClown

12-30-2008, 07:17 PM

I just don't think he understands that 50% of your genes come from your mother and 50% come from your father (what do those numbers add up to again?)...so if there IS a gay gene (or genes), it's probably inherited.

Your parents don't have to express a phenotype in order to pass on the appropriate genotype, say, in the form of a recessive allele. I'm certain it's more complicated than that, but his reasoning is completely flawed.
Ya, genes can be passed and skipped through generations. Some could be recessive and just by random chance you gain them.

Are natural instincts mapped in genes?

wiegeabo

12-30-2008, 07:18 PM

I just don't think he understands that 50% of your genes come from your mother and 50% come from your father (what do those numbers add up to again?)...so if there IS a gay gene (or genes), it's probably inherited.

Your parents don't have to express a phenotype in order to pass on the appropriate genotype, say, in the form of a recessive allele. I'm certain it's more complicated than that, but his reasoning is completely flawed.

Things like that are not uncommon. White parents have been known to have black babies because one of their ancestors on each side was black and the right genes randomly came together in the right combination.

Carcharodon

12-30-2008, 07:20 PM

Are natural instincts mapped in genes?That's an enormously complex question. First you'd have to define "natural instinct," and that in itself is complex. Then you'd have to identify said behaviors/instincts.

I would argue that, to some extent, they are. In humans, though, it's enormously difficult to tell.

Carcharodon

12-30-2008, 07:21 PM

Things like that are not uncommon. White parents have been known to have black babies because one of their ancestors on each side was black and the right genes randomly came together in the right combination.Um, yeah...they were inherited. That's what I'm saying. :dry:

Like right here, for instance:

Your parents don't have to express a phenotype in order to pass on the appropriate genotype, say, in the form of a recessive allele.

CaptainClown

12-30-2008, 07:22 PM

That's an enormously complex question. First you'd have to define "natural instinct," and that in itself is complex. Then you'd have to identify said behaviors/instincts.

I would argue that, to some extent, they are. In humans, though, it's enormously difficult to tell.
Well I mean the instinct to reproduce. That is a natural instinct that everyone has.

Carcharodon

12-30-2008, 07:24 PM

That is a natural instinct that everyone has.You might be able to argue that homosexuals don't have that instinct. But basically you're right. :up:

But I'm not gay, so I guess I really don't know. :up:

spideyboy_1111

12-30-2008, 07:30 PM

we don't know they are straight, there are many homosexual people out there with families.

sooo your saying anyone who's gay has parents with homosexual tendencies? :o

CaptainClown

12-30-2008, 07:34 PM

sooo your saying anyone who's gay has parents with homosexual tendencies? :o
No you are saying that. I am saying that there are many factors to take into consideration.
1. Many gays have had families and children, they have not come out and probably wouldn't.
2. It could be a recessive gene that is passed every other generation etc. There are so many different variations that could have a gene that is only shows up every so often.
3. It could even be just an anomaly

Carcharodon

12-30-2008, 07:37 PM

No you are saying that.No, he's arguing that it's not inherited because straight people can have gay children.

Again, that's flawed, but that's his argument.

CaptainClown

12-30-2008, 07:39 PM

No, he's arguing that it's not inherited because straight people can have gay children.

Again, that's flawed, but that's his argument.
No I meant "you are saying that I am saying that" not that he is arguing that but that he is assuming that is what I am saying.

Carcharodon

12-30-2008, 07:40 PM

You just made my head explode. **** you. :cmad:

CaptainClown

12-30-2008, 07:41 PM

muahaha my mutant power is finally revealed. Insane jabber makes peoples head explode, I think my mutant name will be called TONGUE TWISTER!

spideyboy_1111

12-30-2008, 07:48 PM

No you are saying that. I am saying that there are many factors to take into consideration.
1. Many gays have had families and children, they have not come out and probably wouldn't.
2. It could be a recessive gene that is passed every other generation etc. There are so many different variations that could have a gene that is only shows up every so often.
3. It could even be just an anomaly

i am not saying that... im simply saying homosexuality is natural. what causes it? i don't know. but considering genetically twins are the same, the chances of them being both homosexual is easily logical to understand.

1) ? so? wtf does this have to do with anything? your saying alot of our parents could be gay and not out about it. at least thats what your implying.

2) agrees this could easily be how it is

3) double agrees.

though i do have 2 other gay cousins.. all on the same side of the family, which indeed is interesting.. all of us are in the same generation too. (not age wise but genetically speaking, were all first cousins)

spideyboy_1111

12-30-2008, 07:49 PM

You just made my head explode. **** you. :cmad:

you both just really hurt my head quite alot :(

CaptainClown

12-30-2008, 07:55 PM

i am not saying that... im simply saying homosexuality is natural. what causes it? i don't know. but considering genetically twins are the same, the chances of them being both homosexual is easily logical to understand.

1) ? so? wtf does this have to do with anything? your saying alot of our parents could be gay and not out about it. at least thats what your implying.

2) agrees this could easily be how it is

3) double agrees.

though i do have 2 other gay cousins.. all on the same side of the family, which indeed is interesting.. all of us are in the same generation too. (not age wise but genetically speaking, were all first cousins)
Well we aren't disputing the fact that twins have a tendency to both be gay. That isn't the argument, we are just saying if it is a gene then how it is possible that it is passed.

1 is valid because we won't further understand it because people will not come out of the closet, who knows it may be entirely possible that parents of homosexuals are themselves gay, we will never know as the atmosphere of the current world makes them keep things like that to themselves.

We can not further understand the homosexual drive because of the lack of information and almost reluctant nature that it is concerning. Again we don't have enough information to actually conduct a study, so to throw something out like it may be passed down from parents is being too hasty.

spideyboy_1111

12-30-2008, 08:01 PM

Well we aren't disputing the fact that twins have a tendency to both be gay. That isn't the argument, we are just saying if it is a gene then how it is possible that it is passed.

1 is valid because we won't further understand it because people will not come out of the closet, who knows it may be entirely possible that parents of homosexuals are themselves gay, we will never know as the atmosphere of the current world makes them keep things like that to themselves.

We can not further understand the homosexual drive because of the lack of information and almost reluctant nature that it is concerning. Again we don't have enough information to actually conduct a study, so to throw something out like it may be passed down from parents is being too hasty.

well considering thats what i was discussing.. and bringing to the table...

1 is valid to a degree but you can't assume that theres loads of people who are like this. you take and study the ones who do eventually come out. Problem is sexuality is pretty damn hard to understand, because it is not black and white at all. there are plenty of strait men who have had homosexual tendencies or have experimented with other guys. Does that make them gay? no. Those people were curious and either denied that aspect of themselves, or tried it and just simply decided they liked women more. Both happens, both happen pretty often too. I also believe people shouldnt have to hide, but if they want to so be it. I'd never tell people they need to come out. because half the time those who are closeted for so long don't even understand or know there own sexual identities to make such a bold statement.

studies are indeed being done on the exact things we are talking about. But sexuality is fluid and in many cases different for different people. There is no black and white concrete answer, i dont believe there ever will be.

CaptainClown

12-30-2008, 08:21 PM

[QUOTE]
[QUOTE]1 is valid to a degree but you can't assume that theres loads of people who are like this.
You can't assume there isn't either, with how little knowledge is known about the topic throwing out all hypothesises would almost be neglect.
you take and study the ones who do eventually come out. Problem is sexuality is pretty damn hard to understand, because it is not black and white at all. there are plenty of strait men who have had homosexual tendencies or have experimented with other guys. Does that make them gay? no.
Why not? Why does their preference of the same sex not make them gay? It is like the study that said there is no such thing as a bisexual because you will always have a preference, and because of that you will lean towards one direction.

Course the topic of sexuality can't be put under specific terms but if you assume it is too complex you shouldn't touch it then nothing will get done. We all know that not every case is black and white but in order to understand the general concept we have to assume it is and work from there. We need an original foundation before leafing off into the different cases where brothers rub each others junk against each other.

Those people were curious and either denied that aspect of themselves, or tried it and just simply decided they liked women more. Both happens, both happen pretty often too. Yes they do but that isn't what we are getting at again, we are taking out all the incidents of experimentation and only talking about actual homosexuals and their genetic disposition, not curiosity.

I also believe people shouldn't have to hide, but if they want to so be it. I'd never tell people they need to come out. because half the time those who are closeted for so long don't even understand or know there own sexual identities to make such a bold statement. Yes that is very idealistic but that isn't what we are talking about or have much of an effect on genetic disposition. We are trying to be objective to understand sexuality and again not taking specific cases into effect just yet.

Also on the note on coming out of the closet, yes that would be lovely. I also wish for a world without racism, asians not getting surgery to look white and wish that we all knew right from wrong. However the world doesn't work like that which is a pity and we can only work with what we have in the hopes of a better future. If you spend your whole life dreaming you aren't going to wake up.

studies are indeed being done on the exact things we are talking about. But sexuality is fluid and in many cases different for different people. There is no black and white concrete answer, i dont believe there ever will be.Course there will be an answer, but some people just wouldn't want to hear it. If the answer was that there is a gene prominent in certain people that promotes an attraction to the same sex to a certain degree depending on the person, then yes that is an answer.

spideyboy_1111

12-30-2008, 09:11 PM

You can't assume there isn't either, with how little knowledge is known about the topic throwing out all hypothesises would almost be neglect.

my point was that there will never be an accurate assumption ever.

Why not? Why does their preference of the same sex not make them gay? It is like the study that said there is no such thing as a bisexual because you will always have a preference, and because of that you will lean towards one direction. have you ever actually met a true bisexual? true bisexuals honestly don't have a preference. They are few and far between, but when you meet one they will tell you "i just love people, i fall in love with the person, not the sex". I've also met a guy who loves women to death, but he will always be attracted to me, and have a place in his heart for me, even though he doesnt see himself having a life with a guy as a partner. Plus he still loves women alot. Just because you and other people don't understand bisexuality, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Course the topic of sexuality can't be put under specific terms but if you assume it is too complex you shouldn't touch it then nothing will get done. We all know that not every case is black and white but in order to understand the general concept we have to assume it is and work from there. We need an original foundation before leafing off into the different cases where brothers rub each others junk against each other.

i dont believe we shouldn't touch it, i just don't believe there is one concrete answer, there is no foundation, and i highly doubt there will ever be one... maybe many, but not just one. There are alot of variables, many different for different people. I honestly don't care about what makes us the way we are, the important thing is what we are and who we love. and thats beautiful.

Yes they do but that isn't what we are getting at again, we are taking out all the incidents of experimentation and only talking about actual homosexuals and their genetic disposition, not curiosity. Many can't even decipher that themselves though. Thus why the "closeted" community is very hard to negate.

Yes that is very idealistic but that isn't what we are talking about or have much of an effect on genetic disposition. We are trying to be objective to understand sexuality and again not taking specific cases into effect just yet. and again i think you can't view sexuality as black and white. You can't set a path at all.. im sure many of us on here have similarities, and alot of differences as well. there's no set pattern as to what made us all gay. So i firmly don't believe in one answer.

Also on the note on coming out of the closet, yes that would be lovely. I also wish for a world without racism, asians not getting surgery to look white and wish that we all knew right from wrong. However the world doesn't work like that which is a pity and we can only work with what we have in the hopes of a better future. If you spend your whole life dreaming you aren't going to wake up. that negatable as well.. because some people are born a way which no matter what society told them, they may not want to be. Thats like saying to someone who is born a boy but always felt he was a girl cant have a sex change and should be happy with who they are. Change society all you want, but you will still have people want to be something else.

.Course there will be an answer, but some people just wouldn't want to hear it. If the answer was that there is a gene prominent in certain people that promotes an attraction to the same sex to a certain degree depending on the person, then yes that is an answer.

there will not be a concrete answer i guarantee you. there may be things that help on a genetic level. but again there are way to many variables. Some people know they are homosexual from a very young age, others dont realize it much later in life, some of us have horrible relationships with our father and or a lack of father figure in our lives, others of us have the exact opposite. I believe its genetics, its environment, and even emotional factors I belive everything plays a different role for different people, and i don't have a problem with that fact at all.

I think finding a concrete answer (if one really does exist) could actually do more harm then anything... (parents aborting kids who have a "gay gene" etc..) I dont need an answer and i dont think any of us honestly do.

Red Mask

12-31-2008, 03:19 AM

Right now hate is burning up countries around the world. Love should not be reason to create further hate and misunderstanding. Talk to you guys again in 2009.

Marx

12-31-2008, 11:01 AM

sooo your saying anyone who's gay has parents with homosexual tendencies? :o

That's ridiculous.

Schlosser85

12-31-2008, 12:15 PM

He didn't every gay person's parents are closet homosexuals, he just meant the true percentages can't be known because so many people won't admit their sexuality.

Marx

12-31-2008, 12:20 PM

He didn't every gay person's parents are closet homosexuals, he just meant the true percentages can't be known because so many people won't admit their sexuality.

Or it's just a recessive gene...

Kelly

12-31-2008, 12:46 PM

Wow, this discussion has taken a strange turn......lol

Marx

12-31-2008, 12:48 PM

Wow, this discussion has taken a strange turn......lol

I think it often does. :cwink:

Kelly

12-31-2008, 12:51 PM

I think it often does. :cwink:

Yes.....but have you noticed that every once in awhile, we turn to the white elephant in the room I've spoke of a few times in this thread?

Marx

12-31-2008, 12:52 PM

Yes.....but have you noticed that every once in awhile, we turn to the white elephant in the room I've spoke of a few times in this thread?

Which white elephant?

Kelly

12-31-2008, 12:56 PM

Which white elephant?

The one that is holding the sign......"We call it Gay Rights, but in reality, I want you to say my lifestyle is right...." It seems that we end up talking less about rights, and more about people's beliefs.

redfirebird2008

12-31-2008, 01:01 PM

The one that is holding the sign......"We call it Gay Rights, but in reality, I want you to say my lifestyle is right...." It seems that we end up talking less about rights, and more about people's beliefs.

What are you talking about? Is this not a free country? Apparently not, when it's considered acceptable to tell one group of people what they can't do while another group of people is allowed to do whatever the hell they want. Discrimination is discrimination. It's amusing to me that people fail to look past their own morality and realize that the idea of "choosing" to be part of a minority group that is ridiculed is ludicrous. There is no choice involved. If there was, gays would choose to be part of the group that ISN'T ridiculed.

Marx

12-31-2008, 01:05 PM

The one that is holding the sign......"We call it Gay Rights, but in reality, I want you to say my lifestyle is right...." It seems that we end up talking less about rights, and more about people's beliefs.

Beliefs reinforce viewpoints. I do not agree with the notion of someone holding up a sign saying 'I want you to say my lifestyle is right'. It's about equality. Sure there are some who want to be told, yes it's ok...but the larger majority just want equal standing.

Kelly

12-31-2008, 01:05 PM

The thing is........they don't need people to say "I agree with your lifestyle" in order to get equal rights in the area of marriage.

I can assure you, there was not a majority of voting Americans that agreed with women voting, or equal rights for blacks. BUT, both through legislation and legal means are now a part of our every day lives and NOW, are agreed upon by a vast majority of voting americans.

That is what I've said numerous times on this thread, but the "white elephant" shows itself everyonce in awhile......and if that is what the gay community is waiting for.....I'm afraid they will be waiting quite awhile.

Kelly

12-31-2008, 01:06 PM

Beliefs reinforce viewpoints. I do not agree with the notion of someone holding up a sign saying 'I want you to say my lifestyle is right'. It's about equality. Sure there are some who want to be told, yes it's ok...but the larger majority just want equal standing.

I disagree........I think one of the main reasons why this is such a "volatile" topic is because the underlying desire is acceptance, not "just" equality.

Marx

12-31-2008, 01:07 PM

I disagree........I think one of the main reasons why this is such a "volatile" topic is because the underlying desire is acceptance, not "just" equality.

Well, it could also be said that acceptance and equality are a matter of semantics.

redfirebird2008

12-31-2008, 01:10 PM

Kelly

12-31-2008, 01:14 PM

Well, it could also be said that acceptance and equality are a matter of semantics.

I think they are far from it.

Example: Women's equality in the workplace.....and guess what? We are no longer the minority......does acceptance mean equality? Not in the pay area.....we are "accepted" in the workplace, but we are NOT "equal"

Marx

12-31-2008, 01:15 PM

I think they are far from it.

Example: Women's equality in the workplace.....and guess what? We are no longer the minority......

I meant to some, not all.

spideyboy_1111

12-31-2008, 02:50 PM

i could care less if they fully accept any of us.. i just want my damn rights as a citizen. I demand to be accepted as a human being by the government. I don't really care if Billy Bob or Sally Sue in arkansas accept me.

Kelly

12-31-2008, 02:54 PM

Marx

12-31-2008, 02:56 PM

So, having the right to marry tells you that the government accepts you as a human being?...

Would you not agree that it levels the playing field (so to speak) in the eyes of the law?

spideyboy_1111

12-31-2008, 03:00 PM

So, having the right to marry tells you that the government accepts you as a human being?...

its not "just about marriage" its about equal rights. if we have the same rights as everyone else then yes, that means our government accepts us.

Kelly

12-31-2008, 03:03 PM

Would you not agree that it levels the playing field (so to speak) in the eyes of the law?

As far as marriage....sure. As far as people accepting the lifestyle? no.....I think in time many more will....I think that is simple evolution of thinking at a bigger level.....

But, would the legislature signing a bill into law that says...."they are equal".....???? I think you will have alot....LIKE ME......that says? they aren't already????? OOOOOH....yeah, in the minds of many individuals they aren't....but saying its so.....IMO, won't change their mind. BUT HEY, if it will make homosexuals "feel" more equal.....cool.....go for it. Maybe, just maybe......their ability to see it in writing will give them more of a hand up and more people will see that and agree.......I DON'T KNOW.....they eat in the same restaurants as everyone else, they can go for any job they want, just like I can, and if they are male, probably make alot more money than me in a few of them...........BUT, they can't marry....so as I have said numerous times in this thread....HELL YEAH, THEY SHOULD HAVE THAT RIGHT AS WELL. And, different from some, when they are dealt a "violent" blow...it goes far beyond a simple assault. So in that area they are equal with women and african americans.....as far as women, its called something different....but in the end, there are extra laws out there to "hopefully, not always, but hopefully" deter violence against these groups....

But then again, if an amendment saying "The gay lifestyle is ok".....is what is needed....cool go for it.

spideyboy_1111

12-31-2008, 03:15 PM

As far as marriage....sure. As far as people accepting the lifestyle? no.....I think in time many more will....I think that is simple evolution of thinking at a bigger level.....

But, would the legislature signing a bill into law that says...."they are equal".....???? I think you will have alot....LIKE ME......that says? they aren't already????? OOOOOH....yeah, in the minds of many individuals they aren't....but saying its so.....IMO, won't change their mind. BUT HEY, if it will make homosexuals "feel" more equal.....cool.....go for it. Maybe, just maybe......their ability to see it in writing will give them more of a hand up and more people will see that and agree.......I DON'T KNOW.....they eat in the same restaurants as everyone else, they can go for any job they want, just like I can, and if they are male, probably make alot more money than me in a few of them...........BUT, they can't marry....so as I have said numerous times in this thread....HELL YEAH, THEY SHOULD HAVE THAT RIGHT AS WELL. And, different from some, when they are dealt a "violent" blow...it goes far beyond a simple assault. So in that area they are equal with women and african americans.....as far as women, its called something different....but in the end, there are extra laws out there to "hopefully, not always, but hopefully" deter violence against these groups....

But then again, if an amendment saying "The gay lifestyle is ok".....is what is needed....cool go for it.

no one is asking for the entire US to accept us.. not the people, the GOVERNMENT. theres a difference. why you can't see that, i don't know.

BlackLantern

12-31-2008, 03:16 PM

its not "just about marriage" its about equal rights. if we have the same rights as everyone else then yes, that means our government accepts us.

No, it means the government is hoping you'll shut up and leave them alone....but there is also a rising movement of being gay and accepted in the workplace....the government is going to dangle gay marriage in front of you in hopes you'll decrease the pressure in other areas, such as employment....

spideyboy_1111

12-31-2008, 03:18 PM

well in many states it's illegal to show discrimination towards gays in the work place...

BlackLantern

12-31-2008, 03:21 PM

but it's near impossible to prove.....any company can just cite 'performance issues'...that's what my company (not to me)

Kelly

12-31-2008, 03:23 PM

no one is asking for the entire US to accept us.. not the people, the GOVERNMENT. theres a difference. why you can't see that, i don't know.

I just said in my post.....IF THAT IS WHAT IS NEEDED, FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO DO THIS....THEN OK. Damn, did you not read my post.

Why can you not do that? You misread my posts all the time.....and then *****.....read the post, and maybe you will understand what the hell I'm saying.....

My point is this......IF you are in fact wanting this from the government....cool....ok......way to go......I'm with ya.
...yay!!!!!!!! DID YOU GET THAT......?????

IF it is from Americans as a whole....I don't think that will come quickly.....AND I GET IT, YOU DON'T WANT THAT.....but what are you, the voice of the gay community?????? What I see and read from some on here is that it would take more........if it does, I don't think it will come as quickly...THAT IS MY POINT....

Sorry for the cyber yelling, but damn......you tell me almost every damn post that I don't get it, and yet....you don't read the posts.

I got it....

You want the government to legislate equality....cool. I'm for that....geezus.

As far as your post to BL...

What rights, besides marriage, do you not have as a gay man? (Don't include those things that come with marriage, because I understand what those are...)

wiegeabo

12-31-2008, 03:35 PM

BlackLantern

12-31-2008, 03:45 PM

well Kel, I'm not gay...I'm a friend to the gays....but as a black man I have the same rights as anyone else, but I know there are people and places that do not accept me because I am black

Kelly

12-31-2008, 03:51 PM

well Kel, I'm not gay...I'm a friend to the gays....but as a black man I have the same rights as anyone else, but I know there are people and places that do not accept me because I am black

Exactly, and that is my point.......*sighs*

Legislation is definitely a step forward.....but to think that this is going to be a paradigm change of mindset in the American people.....I just don't think that is going to come as quickly.

There are MANY who do not feel that a woman can be President.....apparently 54% of Americans think a black man can....:cwink:

Kelly

12-31-2008, 03:56 PM

It's not just marriage. Homosexuals don't have equal protection under the law. In some places they can be fired for being gay, denied jobs or promotions, denied benefits and various other things. If a company fired someone for being black or a woman, their asses would be on the losing end of a lawsuit, and those involved with the firing would lose their jobs. But, if a homosexual is fired for being gay, there may be nothing they can do.

So government giving gays equal rights isn't they same as telling the people that being gay is fine, or everyone should accept them. All it does is say that legally, everyone should be treated the same.

And it really doesn't make sense to discriminate against homosexuals. Let's pretend that homosexuality was really just a lifestyle choice that someone could change during their lives and effects how they live. Well, religion is just a lifestyle choice as well. One that people can change during their lives and effects how they live. And yet it's illegal to discriminate against religion.

And if homosexuality isn't a choice, but something you are born being, then it's just like gender or race, and it's illegal to discriminate on either of those.

A little bit of history on the job front...

The most prominent federal sex discrimination statutes are Title IX and TitleVII. Title IX applies to sex discrimination in education or any activity receiving federal financial assistance. Courts are reluctant to interpret the prohibition against sex discrimination as a prohibition against sexual orientation discrimination, but in a few cases sexual orientation discrimination hasbeen included.

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 applies to sex discrimination in employment, and applies to compensation, extension of health care benefits to aspouse, and retirement. Discrimination in employment on the basis of sexualorientation is currently legal in 41 states, meaning individuals may be firedfrom their jobs solely because of sexual orientation, even when it has no bearing on their job performance.

Sexual harassment claims fall under this statute. Gay and lesbian cases sought to show that sexual orientation discrimination is sex discrimination. Courts rejecting this argument most commonly did so by examining the harasser's motivation. Proof of the employer/harasser's discriminatory motive is crucial to the plaintiff's case. The first lawsuits applying this standard resulted ina variety of decisions and no consistent holdings.

The 1969 case of Norton v. Macy held that sexual orientation that does not affect performance on the job or the public reputation of the job cannot be the basis for discrimination. But in 1977, the Federal Appellate Court for the Ninth Circuit determined that the Equal Employment Opportunity Commissions could fire an employee for being gay because of his openness about his homosexuality.

Then in March of 1998, the Supreme Court ruled in Oncale v. Sundowner Offshore Services Incorporated et al. that Title VII's prohibition aganst sex discrimination extends to same-sex sexual harassment.

So there is definitely a ways to go.....seems that the Federal government as an employer has gone further than 9 states who do not have strong laws against discrimination in the area of sexual orientation. BUT, they are starting from a much stronger place legally than women and blacks early on.....so I see a light at the end of the tunnel legislatively....

spideyboy_1111

12-31-2008, 03:58 PM

I just said in my post.....IF THAT IS WHAT IS NEEDED, FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO DO THIS....THEN OK. Damn, did you not read my post.

Why can you not do that? You misread my posts all the time.....and then *****.....read the post, and maybe you will understand what the hell I'm saying.....

My point is this......IF you are in fact wanting this from the government....cool....ok......way to go......I'm with ya.
...yay!!!!!!!! DID YOU GET THAT......?????

IF it is from Americans as a whole....I don't think that will come quickly.....AND I GET IT, YOU DON'T WANT THAT.....but what are you, the voice of the gay community?????? What I see and read from some on here is that it would take more........if it does, I don't think it will come as quickly...THAT IS MY POINT....

Sorry for the cyber yelling, but damn......you tell me almost every damn post that I don't get it, and yet....you don't read the posts.

I got it....

You want the government to legislate equality....cool. I'm for that....geezus.

As far as your post to BL...

What rights, besides marriage, do you not have as a gay man? (Don't include those things that come with marriage, because I understand what those are...)

dude if you started spewing out things in coherent sentences that related to what we are talking about, then maybe i would.

You go ape s*** when were trying to tell you its about government, yet you keep speaking of "the people" stop acting like you know all with whats happening, because clearly you don't.

were commenting simply on the fact that you keep saying its about acceptance from the people. We explained to you that it was the governement. yet for some reason you kept going back to the people. I'm glad your on the same page now but no need to go psycho over it.

spideyboy_1111

12-31-2008, 03:58 PM

but it's near impossible to prove.....any company can just cite 'performance issues'...that's what my company (not to me)

true... but none the less it's still illegal.

BlackLantern

12-31-2008, 04:03 PM

what's the saying....if you can't prove it, it didn't happen....I doubt any member of management has a weighted conscience about firing "teh geyz"

wiegeabo

12-31-2008, 04:10 PM

I always heard, "It ain't illegal if you don't get caught."

Kelly

12-31-2008, 04:11 PM

dude if you started spewing out things in coherent sentences that related to what we are talking about, then maybe i would.

You go ape s*** when were trying to tell you its about government, yet you keep speaking of "the people" stop acting like you know all with whats happening, because clearly you don't.

were commenting simply on the fact that you keep saying its about acceptance from the people. We explained to you that it was the governement. yet for some reason you kept going back to the people. I'm glad your on the same page now but no need to go psycho over it.

First of all, I'm not a dude...:cwink:

Secondly, I am simply bringing a view into this discussion that IS OUT THERE IN SOCIETY....

Not once, not one time, have I said that there should not be government involvment in this issue.....NOT ONCE, have I said that you are not deserving of these rights, all rights, just as I have....not one time. I have simply tried to bring into the discussion a view that is not widely read on this thread....that's all. I haven't even said, once that I agree with the view I'm bringing, but in order to get a true view of what is happening and could happen IMO, needs that view in the discussion.

I go ape **** because you keep telling me "you don't know what the hell you are talking about"....when I'm simply giving a view that I have heard time and time again from discussions with a wide range of people....ITS A ****ING OPINION.

And you know all? because you are a gay man, you know ALL of this issue? You have an opinion that is very close and deep to this issue....yes you do.....and I respect that.....I've never told you...YOU'RE WRONG....I've simply stated some things that others feel and see as we watch this unfold in the media. You can't stay blind to that.

And what the hell, "i get you NOW?" *sighs*

Way to miss the majority of my posts........your batting 1,000....good job.:word:

spideyboy_1111

12-31-2008, 05:26 PM

First of all, I'm not a dude...:cwink:

Secondly, I am simply bringing a view into this discussion that IS OUT THERE IN SOCIETY....

Not once, not one time, have I said that there should not be government involvment in this issue.....NOT ONCE, have I said that you are not deserving of these rights, all rights, just as I have....not one time. I have simply tried to bring into the discussion a view that is not widely read on this thread....that's all. I haven't even said, once that I agree with the view I'm bringing, but in order to get a true view of what is happening and could happen IMO, needs that view in the discussion.

I go ape **** because you keep telling me "you don't know what the hell you are talking about"....when I'm simply giving a view that I have heard time and time again from discussions with a wide range of people....ITS A ****ING OPINION.

And you know all? because you are a gay man, you know ALL of this issue? You have an opinion that is very close and deep to this issue....yes you do.....and I respect that.....I've never told you...YOU'RE WRONG....I've simply stated some things that others feel and see as we watch this unfold in the media. You can't stay blind to that.

And what the hell, "i get you NOW?" *sighs*

Way to miss the majority of my posts........your batting 1,000....good job.:word:

I'm fine with you bringing a "new" view to the table... but you brought it up in a way where it was simply not what we as gay men (yes im speaking for the majority of us) feel. sure we'd all like social acceptance, but i think we all know thats asking for way to much considering blacks and women still do not have that.

i have never once said you were against the government being involved at all. Just saying you were countering an argument that wasn't even the basis of anything we were discussing. You made the broad statment "equality = acceptance" which is not how the majority of us feel. It'd be nice, just unrealistic.

And i do know quite alot, thank you very much. I am deeply involved with this movement, have been to several protests in many cities from LA to Sacramento, to San fransisco and even in Ohio. I'm involved with several organizers and community leaders as well. So i think i do have a pretty damn good grasp on the issue.

Kelly

12-31-2008, 05:46 PM

I'm fine with you bringing a "new" view to the table... but you brought it up in a way where it was simply not what we as gay men (yes im speaking for the majority of us) feel. sure we'd all like social acceptance, but i think we all know thats asking for way to much considering blacks and women still do not have that.

i have never once said you were against the government being involved at all. Just saying you were countering an argument that wasn't even the basis of anything we were discussing. You made the broad statment "equality = acceptance" which is not how the majority of us feel. It'd be nice, just unrealistic.

And i do know quite alot, thank you very much. I am deeply involved with this movement, have been to several protests in many cities from LA to Sacramento, to San fransisco and even in Ohio. I'm involved with several organizers and community leaders as well. So i think i do have a pretty damn good grasp on the issue.

A "new" view......LMAO.... simply bringing in many people's perception of this issue is a "new" view....wow.

And, you do realize I wasn't the one who brought up the equality=acceptance, and I wasn't talking about how you "feel" as a gay man. I'm not gay , I don't know how you feel, I was speaking of a demographic in our society that do not believe your way of life is right, and this is "their mindset"....I would never and have never tried to speak for you, or say "what you feel". My point was "this is how a major sector of society feels, this is what they are saying, this is how it looks to them. This is what they hearing and saying...." And what I get from you is.....paraphrased of course..."you don't know what the hell you are talking about". Well, yeah I do. I'm talking about a mindset I have seen for almost 40 years now......and it is "their perception" that must be at least looked at. That is what I was bringing to the table. I wasn't saying, "this is what you are doing, and this is how you feel". I would never even to venture an opinion on how you feel. My discussion was simply, I understand what you desire, here is what many people perceive as your desire, here is my opinion on the subject, and agreement that legislation will have to be the course of action, as it was in the Suffrage movement, and the Civil Rights movement. NOW, that right there is a summary of everyone of my posts in this thread. The phrase "White Elephant in the room" was taken from an interview I saw on CNN, where they interviewed several people on different sides of this issue. I could see where the perception I was talking about was coming from. I never said I agreed with it, only that I saw it. *sighs* but, I'm sure you will find something wrong in this post as well......so I will leave it with my summary above. :yay:

spideyboy_1111

01-01-2009, 07:22 PM

A "new" view......LMAO.... simply bringing in many people's perception of this issue is a "new" view....wow.

And, you do realize I wasn't the one who brought up the equality=acceptance, and I wasn't talking about how you "feel" as a gay man. I'm not gay , I don't know how you feel, I was speaking of a demographic in our society that do not believe your way of life is right, and this is "their mindset"....I would never and have never tried to speak for you, or say "what you feel". My point was "this is how a major sector of society feels, this is what they are saying, this is how it looks to them. This is what they hearing and saying...." And what I get from you is.....paraphrased of course..."you don't know what the hell you are talking about". Well, yeah I do. I'm talking about a mindset I have seen for almost 40 years now......and it is "their perception" that must be at least looked at. That is what I was bringing to the table. I wasn't saying, "this is what you are doing, and this is how you feel". I would never even to venture an opinion on how you feel. My discussion was simply, I understand what you desire, here is what many people perceive as your desire, here is my opinion on the subject, and agreement that legislation will have to be the course of action, as it was in the Suffrage movement, and the Civil Rights movement. NOW, that right there is a summary of everyone of my posts in this thread. The phrase "White Elephant in the room" was taken from an interview I saw on CNN, where they interviewed several people on different sides of this issue. I could see where the perception I was talking about was coming from. I never said I agreed with it, only that I saw it. *sighs* but, I'm sure you will find something wrong in this post as well......so I will leave it with my summary above. :yay:

and i corrected the "view" you brought to the table :o and explained how WE feel about it. Ignorance is ignorance. You can only enlighten those who wish to be.

and i think me and you personally just had a big misunderstanding. Your first few posts honestly didn't come off as if you were describing someone else's view point.

Kelly

01-01-2009, 07:34 PM

and i corrected the "view" you brought to the table :o and explained how WE feel about it. Ignorance is ignorance. You can only enlighten those who wish to be.

and i think me and you personally just had a big misunderstanding. Your first few posts honestly didn't come off as if you were describing someone else's view point.

Yes, there was a misunderstanding.....it happens when you do not throughly read posts....searching for something to refute usually leads to that.

But honestly, the misunderstanding wasn't that big of a deal to me.....but its rude to tell someone they don't know what they are talking about.....it's just rude.......I've made it very clear I respect your opinion.....you made it very clear I'm an idiot. :dry:

spideyboy_1111

01-01-2009, 08:02 PM

to be fair, i never used the word idiot ....

and i did thoroughly read your posts...

Kelly

01-01-2009, 08:03 PM

to be fair, i never used the word idiot ....

and i did thoroughly read your posts...

Of course not, that would get you an infraction.....:cwink:

wiegeabo

01-01-2009, 08:35 PM

I've got to say, Kel, I read your posts the same way spidey did. And I did read them thoroughly because I was confused by what you were trying to say. What you were trying to get across just wasn't clear to us.

It's clear to you because you wrote it, you know exactly what you meant. But your writing wasn't clear to me at all. Honestly, looking at those posts, they look like one massive run on sentence with a lot of brief thoughts strung together. I'm not attacking your ideas because, now that you've explained them, I understand and agree with you. It's just the writing confused us, I guess.

Kelly

01-01-2009, 08:41 PM

spideyboy_1111

01-01-2009, 08:46 PM

Hey, that's my writing style.......has been since 2004......lol......it won't be changing anytime soon. I don't have alot of long periods of time on here....so when I get it..I go fast.

I said from the start, that there is a demographic out there that are looking at this issue and movement with a very different perception from what the movement is trying to portray and their desires. That was it.....nothing else really, and yes I said that I could see where they were getting that perception. THAT ONE STATEMENT.... was taken as "you agree with that perception" even though I have stated countless times that I saw a need for govenment intervention in this because unfortunately that demographic is loud, and has alot of money.

Sorry, that it wasn't understood....but maybe next time, Spidey can simply ask me to explain better because he didn't understand, rather than.....you don't know what you are talking about......sometimes.....that works. *smiles*

haha wow... seriously? hey.. least im not the only one who had trouble understanding. its not my place to tell you to explain something better when I didnt know you were having problems explaining it. It came off exactly how me and wiegeabo said. Thus why we had the reaction we had. how the hell were we suppose to know you weren't explaining it well? To us you were.. but coming off a way you didnt want to come off. it's your duty to explain yourself thoroughly. not us to magically know what your thinking and tell you you explained it wrong.

Kelly

01-01-2009, 08:54 PM

well you understand now.....so moving on.....

seriously....

wiegeabo

01-01-2009, 08:56 PM

Hey, that's my writing style.......has been since 2004......lol......it won't be changing anytime soon. I don't have alot of long periods of time on here....so when I get it..I go fast.

I said from the start, that there is a demographic out there that are looking at this issue and movement with a very different perception from what the movement is trying to portray and their desires. That was it.....nothing else really, and yes I said that I could see where they were getting that perception. THAT ONE STATEMENT.... was taken as "you agree with that perception" even though I have stated countless times that I saw a need for govenment intervention in this because unfortunately that demographic is loud, and has alot of money.

Sorry, that it wasn't understood....but maybe next time, Spidey can simply ask me to explain better because he didn't understand, rather than.....you don't know what you are talking about......sometimes.....that works. *smiles*

Doesn't matter how long you've been doing it, you can change it if you want to. If you don't want to, fine. But if you write fast and loose in a place where writing is the method of communicating ideas, then you can't really get mad when someone misunderstands you, can you?

Anyway, it's all cleared up now. So let's get back to talkin' about those gays.

...

um...Prop 8 sucks.

Kelly

01-01-2009, 08:56 PM

Doesn't matter how long you've been doing it, you can change it if you want to. If you don't want to, fine. But if you write fast and loose in a place where writing is the method of communicating ideas, then you can't really get mad when someone misunderstands you, can you?

Anyway, it's all cleared up now. So let's get back to talkin' about those gays.

...

um...Prop 8 sucks.

Most understand me.......I'm good......

Marx

01-01-2009, 11:51 PM

Well, it looks like I've certainly missed a spirited discussion... :oldrazz:

Kelly

01-01-2009, 11:57 PM

Well, it looks like I've certainly missed a spirited discussion... :oldrazz:

nah, just a misunderstanding ..... :hehe:

Marx

01-02-2009, 12:03 AM

nah, just a misunderstanding ..... :hehe:

A misunderstanding? Here? On the Hype? That NEVER happens! :oldrazz:

Kelly

01-02-2009, 12:05 AM

:A misunderstanding? Here? On the Hype? That NEVER happens! :oldrazz:

Yeah.....its the dots.....:cwink:

redfirebird2008

01-02-2009, 12:07 AM

A misunderstanding? Here? On the Hype? That NEVER happens! :oldrazz:

You don't say! And the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? :oldrazz:

Marx

01-02-2009, 12:08 AM

:

Yeah.....its the dots.....:cwink:

Ahh yes...the dreaded dots. I've come to dislike them from time to time. :funny:

Kelly

01-02-2009, 12:10 AM

Ahh yes...the dreaded dots. I've come to dislike them from time to time. :funny:

yeah, but I see they are rubbing off on ya.....thats my plan....everyone will be using them when I'm done.:word:

Marx

01-02-2009, 12:13 AM

yeah, but I see they are rubbing off on ya.....thats my plan....everyone will be using them when I'm done.:word:

Yeah, it's complicated. My relationship with the dots is a love/hate kind of thing. :oldrazz:

Kelly

01-02-2009, 12:15 AM

Yeah, it's complicated. My relationship with the dots is a love/hate kind of thing. :oldrazz:

I'm just addicted....:csad:

Holiday

01-02-2009, 12:21 AM

I didn't like the dots at first but I've gotten use to them.

I seriously doubt I'll ever start using them though............dammit.... :oldrazz:

spideyboy_1111

01-02-2009, 12:39 AM

So who all has seen MILK? i pretty much recommend it highly.. theres alot of prop 8 undertones in it, at least alot of issues that i felt are relevant to what is happening today.

wiegeabo

01-02-2009, 12:51 AM

Haven't seen it yet. Looks great, and that there are some very powerful performances.

spideyboy_1111

01-02-2009, 12:53 AM

it was pretty good, i cried twice, which i don't do often... once for being really happy, and once for being really sad :( lol. It really reflected alot of the prop 8 and protesting stuff i had been to in the last few months.. and about 2 months ago i just got back from visiting the castro district for the first time.

Holiday

01-02-2009, 12:53 AM

I would like to see it but it's not playing near me here in Alabama.... go figure. :oldrazz:

Kelly

01-02-2009, 09:45 AM

I'm not a Sean Penn fan, but I'll check it out when it hits On Demand.

Marx

01-02-2009, 05:29 PM

Milk isn't playing anywhere near me either...but DOUBT is! :dry:

Kelly

01-02-2009, 05:40 PM

I LOVED "Doubt".....excellent, excellent, excellent....

spideyboy_1111

01-02-2009, 05:46 PM

i will only even slightly enjoy doubt, if merryl streeps character is in the wrong, and gets a severe kick in the face because of it.

Marx

01-02-2009, 05:48 PM

I LOVED "Doubt".....excellent, excellent, excellent....

I would really like to see Doubt as well. I was making light of the irony. I can go see a movie about religion, but not about 'teh gayz'. :cwink:

Kelly

01-02-2009, 05:50 PM

I would really like to see Doubt as well. I was making light of the irony. I can go see a movie about religion, but not about 'teh gayz'. :cwink:

Both are showing at my favorite downtown theatre.....I go to a movie, walk right across the street and listen to some great jazz while eating dinner.......one of my favorite things to do.

Marx

01-02-2009, 05:52 PM

Both are showing at my favorite downtown theatre.....I go to a movie, walk right across the street and listen to some great jazz while eating dinner.......one of my favorite things to do.

Gotta love SW Ohio! :whatever:

BlackLantern

01-02-2009, 05:54 PM

Gotta love SW Ohio! :whatever:

do they allow you to leave SW Ohio?? :oldrazz:

spideyboy_1111

01-02-2009, 05:55 PM

Gotta love SW Ohio! :whatever:

it has to be playing around Cincinnati i will totally find you a place playing it...

Marx

01-02-2009, 05:55 PM

do they allow you to leave SW Ohio?? :oldrazz:

No. There are chains and rumors of explosives at all the exits. :scaredface:

Marx

01-02-2009, 05:59 PM

it has to be playing around Cincinnati i will totally find you a place playing it...

Not that I've seen, but I welcome your effort. :cwink:

spideyboy_1111

01-02-2009, 05:59 PM

playing MILK:

Esquire Theatre
320 Ludlow Avenue, Cincinnati, OH 45220

Kenwood Towne Center
7875 Montgomery Road, Cincinnati, OH 45236

Marx

01-02-2009, 06:00 PM

playing MILK:

Esquire Theatre
320 Ludlow Avenue, Cincinnati, OH 45220

Kenwood Towne Center
7875 Montgomery Road, Cincinnati, OH 45236

That has to be new! It wasn't there last week! Thank you Spidey! :woot:

spideyboy_1111

01-02-2009, 06:01 PM

That has to be new! It wasn't there last week! Thank you Spidey! :woot:

no problem... both were listed on MSN.com under movie showtimes.

i do recommend seeing it ASAP if you want to.. because those indeed were the only 2 theaters... if you miss there showings ull have to go up to dayton or columbus

Kelly

01-02-2009, 06:02 PM

Sometimes they will open movies in more theatres later, if there is Awards talk.....

Marx

01-02-2009, 06:04 PM

no problem... both were listed on MSN.com under movie showtimes.

i do recommend seeing it ASAP if you want to.. because those indeed were the only 2 theaters... if you miss there showings ull have to go up to dayton or columbus

I've been trying to get to Dayton or Columbus, but haven't made it there yet. Which was why I was so disappointed with it not showing anywhere around me. (Until now, apparently.)

spideyboy_1111

01-02-2009, 06:05 PM

Sometimes they will open movies in more theatres later, if there is Awards talk.....

true... but milk doesnt seem to have the "talk" that brokeback had... so... not sure if it will.

BlackLantern

01-02-2009, 06:06 PM

I read there is apparently some flap between Mickey Rourke and Penn over this...rumors in Hollywood are that Penn took the role specifically to try for an Oscar....

Marx

01-02-2009, 06:06 PM

true... but milk doesnt seem to have the "talk" that brokeback had... so... not sure if it will.

Sean Penn has been receving alot of award's talk.

spideyboy_1111

01-02-2009, 06:08 PM

I've been trying to get to Dayton or Columbus, but haven't made it there yet. Which was why I was so disappointed with it not showing anywhere around me. (Until now, apparently.)

nice, i saw it in Cbus the first week i was in town, just finished my 2nd week of break, ill be in town till sunday the 11th...

spideyboy_1111

01-02-2009, 06:10 PM

Sean Penn has been receving alot of award's talk.

ya but by this time, when brokeback came out... alot of the general public, hell friends i know who would never ever to my thoughts go see a gay film, went to see brokeback.

Marx

01-02-2009, 06:12 PM

ya but by this time, when brokeback came out... alot of the general public, hell friends i know who would never ever to my thoughts go see a gay film, went to see brokeback.

You do have a point. There was ALOT of talk about Brokeback.

*waits for Jman to step into thread and go off about Brokeback Mountain...again :oldrazz:*

Holiday

01-02-2009, 06:15 PM

You do have a point. There was ALOT of talk about Brokeback.

*waits for Jman to step into thread and go off about Brokeback Mountain...again :oldrazz:*

Does he not like that movie?

BlackLantern

01-02-2009, 06:17 PM

let's say it did come out that Penn took the role only for an Oscar and nothing else....how would the gay community feel about that??

spideyboy_1111

01-02-2009, 06:20 PM

let's say it did come out that Penn took the role only for an Oscar and nothing else....how would the gay community feel about that??
i honestly wouldnt care, but its something we'd never know either, i know how sean feels about gay rights either way. so im fine with it

Marx

01-02-2009, 06:21 PM

Does he not like that movie?

Jman believes that the relationship between Del Mar and Twist is more of a predator/prey kind of thing.

Marx

01-02-2009, 06:21 PM

let's say it did come out that Penn took the role only for an Oscar and nothing else....how would the gay community feel about that??

Alot of actors take roles for various reasons...I don't see why it would be a problem.

BlackLantern

01-02-2009, 06:25 PM

Jman believes that the relationship between Del Mar and Twist is more of a predator/prey kind of thing.

He's not far off....Gyllenhall looked like he would drop to the ground and put his behind up in the air at a moments notice.....I find it a very sad movie, knowing that this other person feels what you feel but won't let that wall down....that has to suck....

Kelly

01-02-2009, 06:25 PM

Alot of actors take roles for various reasons...I don't see why it would be a problem.

Yeah, but Penn in the past has thumbed his nose at the Academy.....now he's doing movies for the award?

BlackLantern

01-02-2009, 06:27 PM

I think an Oscar is like crack....IMO Penn thinks rather highly of himself and has probably seen actors who he considers less talented than him win one, so he figures he deserves one....

redfirebird2008

01-02-2009, 06:30 PM

I think an Oscar is like crack....IMO Penn thinks rather highly of himself and has probably seen actors who he considers less talented than him win one, so he figures he deserves one....

Didn't he already win one for Mystic River?

BlackLantern

01-02-2009, 06:32 PM

Oscar is like crack....you always want more...what's the only thing better than having "Oscar Winner" next to your name.....

Two Time Oscar Winner....

spideyboy_1111

01-02-2009, 07:14 PM

He's not far off....Gyllenhall looked like he would drop to the ground and put his behind up in the air at a moments notice.....I find it a very sad movie, knowing that this other person feels what you feel but won't let that wall down....that has to suck....

im so there right now... least.. i know a part of him feels that way... sad story...

basically the story is the ye old gay story of...
in High school...
-Boy meets Girl
-Boy meets Girl's Boy Cousin
-Boy becomes best friends with Girl's Cousin
-Boy falls in love with Girl
-Boy has a few questionable experiences with Girl's Cousin
-Boy asks Cousin if he's bi or something
-Cousin freaks out and says it was probably just experimenting
-Cousin moves to California for College
-Cousin comes out of the closet
-Girl moves to Arizona for college
-Boy flirts online with cousin about past questionable experiences
-Boy plans on proposing to Girl
-Cousin and Boy have awkward/tension moments around Girl
-Boy wants Cousin bad
-Cousin decides if Boy really wants to marry Girl, and be friends with Cousin, He and Boy need to release this tension and get it "past them".
-Cousin goes home on college break
-Boy sleeps over at cousins
-Boy and Cousin mess around
-Boy and Cousin feel relieved and put it past them.
-Boy proposes to Girl
-Girl says yes
-Girl and Boy's relationship strays due to distance.
-Boy and Girl break up
-Girl and Cousin both "come out" to eachother
-Cousin comes home on break
-Boy comes to Cousin's
-Boy and Cousin curl up on the couch and watch a movie
-Boy and Cousin go to bed, and have a passionate "mess around"
-Cousin goes home on break
-Cousin realizes he has feelings for boy
-Boy calls cousin 3 months later with big news
-Cousin's heart is pounding
-Boy says he got New Girl (of 3 months) pregnant
-Boy marries New Girl a week later
-Cousin's heart shatters
-Cousin goes home again on break
-Boy tells Cousin he wish his life could be different
-Cousin's heart breaks more
-Boy spends the night with Cousin again
-Boy hops in bed with Cousin
-Awkwardness insues
-Boy ends up on the floor
-Cousin leaves back to California
-Cousin returns this winter
-Cousin has to visit a Boy, who still harbors feelings for Cousin and his wife and baby 2morrow :(

Marx

01-02-2009, 11:08 PM

BlackLantern

01-03-2009, 08:17 AM

im so there right now... least.. i know a part of him feels that way... sad story...

basically the story is the ye old gay story of...
in High school...
-Boy meets Girl
-Boy meets Girl's Boy Cousin
-Boy becomes best friends with Girl's Cousin
-Boy falls in love with Girl
-Boy has a few questionable experiences with Girl's Cousin
-Boy asks Cousin if he's bi or something
-Cousin freaks out and says it was probably just experimenting
-Cousin moves to California for College
-Cousin comes out of the closet
-Girl moves to Arizona for college
-Boy flirts online with cousin about past questionable experiences
-Boy plans on proposing to Girl
-Cousin and Boy have awkward/tension moments around Girl
-Boy wants Cousin bad
-Cousin decides if Boy really wants to marry Girl, and be friends with Cousin, He and Boy need to release this tension and get it "past them".
-Cousin goes home on college break
-Boy sleeps over at cousins
-Boy and Cousin mess around
-Boy and Cousin feel relieved and put it past them.
-Boy proposes to Girl
-Girl says yes
-Girl and Boy's relationship strays due to distance.
-Boy and Girl break up
-Girl and Cousin both "come out" to eachother
-Cousin comes home on break
-Boy comes to Cousin's
-Boy and Cousin curl up on the couch and watch a movie
-Boy and Cousin go to bed, and have a passionate "mess around"
-Cousin goes home on break
-Cousin realizes he has feelings for boy
-Boy calls cousin 3 months later with big news
-Cousin's heart is pounding
-Boy says he got New Girl (of 3 months) pregnant
-Boy marries New Girl a week later
-Cousin's heart shatters
-Cousin goes home again on break
-Boy tells Cousin he wish his life could be different
-Cousin's heart breaks more
-Boy spends the night with Cousin again
-Boy hops in bed with Cousin
-Awkwardness insues
-Boy ends up on the floor
-Cousin leaves back to California
-Cousin returns this winter
-Cousin has to visit a Boy, who still harbors feelings for Cousin and his wife and baby 2morrow :(

yea...that old chestnut...happens all the time....

I appreciate the colors in there though

Schlosser85

01-03-2009, 10:05 AM

I don't get how jman said the tent scene seemed like borderline rape when Jack was the "bottom".

BlackLantern

01-03-2009, 10:12 AM

I've never seen the whole film but is there a scene where Ennis and Jack are going to be intimate and Ennis spits on his hand before proceeeding??

Holiday

01-03-2009, 10:25 AM

I've never seen the whole film but is there a scene where Ennis and Jack are going to be intimate and Ennis spits on his hand before proceeeding??

Yeah, that's the tent scene. I have a friend who rented the dvd and brought it to another friends house just to show him that part, and nothing else. And they think I'm weird for actually owning and liking the movie.

Marx

01-03-2009, 11:20 PM

I don't get how jman said the tent scene seemed like borderline rape when Jack was the "bottom".

Throughout the entire movie Jack is the one initiating things. He did take advantage of Ennis in the tent.

*and so goes the thread into a full scale Brokeback Mountain debate*

Holiday

01-03-2009, 11:25 PM

Throughout the entire movie Jack is the one initiating things. He did take advantage of Ennis in the tent.

*and so goes the thread into a full scale Brokeback Mountain debate*

That's because Jack is more comfortable with his homosexuality.

*I don't know how to make small text :(*

The Senator

01-03-2009, 11:29 PM

No, I don't think Brokeback Mountain is the definitive gay film. While I consider it Ang Lee's best directorial effort, I am not a fan of the screenplay nor the characterization of both main leads. I feel that Jack Twist was the one who enticed Ennis Del Mar into a sexual relationship. I feel Twist took advantage of Del Mar that evening in the tent, and while he was the bottom in the relationship, he was the one who made the first advance. He was the one who perpetuated the relationship and acted like an obsessive sexual stalker throughout the duration of the film.

I also think Heath Ledger's performance as Ennis Del Mar is the most overrated performance this decade. All he did was mumble and act "deep" when there really wasn't any depth to his character. The final scene is very powerful but I blame that tearjerker on the music, not Heath Ledger's acting.

Marx

01-03-2009, 11:30 PM

That's because Jack is more comfortable with his homosexuality.

*I don't know how to make small text :(*

Yeah...he's so comfortable that he lies to everyone but Ennis, and the male hooker that he picked up. He's so comfortable that he never allows Ennis to visit him. Instead, it's always Jack visiting Ennis. (So he can keep his sham marriage in tact.)

For text sizes, highlight the text you want to change, and then go up to the number box between the text style and the big letter 'A'. :yay:

The Senator

01-03-2009, 11:34 PM

Also, if Sean Penn wins an Oscar for his performance as Harvey Milk, we had better get ready for the most self-serving Oscar acceptance speech in the history of the Academy Awards. I have no doubt that Penn will take full credit for the LGBT movement in what will be a pompous political statement he has no right to make.

Marx

01-03-2009, 11:37 PM

Also, if Sean Penn wins an Oscar for his performance as Harvey Milk, we had better get ready for the most self-serving Oscar acceptance speech in the history of the Academy Awards. I have no doubt that Penn will take full credit for the LGBT movement in what will no doubt be a pompous political statement he has no right to make.

I wouldn't be surprised.

wiegeabo

01-03-2009, 11:37 PM

What we need to do is convince the haters that everyone is at least a little bit gay. Then they won't have an excuse.

iSnNHUaNR_8

Marx

01-03-2009, 11:40 PM

What we need to do is convince the haters that everyone is at least a little bit gay. Then they won't have an excuse.

iSnNHUaNR_8

Wow...I immediately thought of that clip when I read your comment. (And I hadn't even looked at the spoiler tag yet! :ikyn)

The Senator

01-03-2009, 11:45 PM

What we need to do is convince the haters that everyone is at least a little bit gay.

I don't believe this statement is true...

Holiday

01-03-2009, 11:49 PM

No, I don't think Brokeback Mountain is the definitive gay film. While I consider it Ang Lee's best directorial effort, I am not a fan of the screenplay nor the characterization of both main leads. I feel that Jack Twist was the one who enticed Ennis Del Mar into a sexual relationship. I feel Twist took advantage of Del Mar that evening in the tent, and while he was the bottom in the relationship, he was the one who made the first advance. He was the one who perpetuated the relationship and acted like an obsessive sexual stalker throughout the duration of the film.

I don't see it as the definitive gay film either. I simply see it as a love story between two people who know they can never be together.

As far as the tent scene; Ennis walked into that tent. He didn't have to, but he did. He didn't have to have sex with Jack Twist either. But he did.

I also think Heath Ledger's performance as Ennis Del Mar is the most overrated performance this decade. All he did was mumble and act "deep" when there really wasn't any depth to his character. The final scene is very powerful but I blame that tearjerker on the music, not Heath Ledger's acting.

Well, I disagree there. If anything I think the performance is underrated.

Marx

01-03-2009, 11:50 PM

I don't see it as the definitive gay film either. I simply see it as a love story between two people who know they can never be together.

As far as the tent scene; Ennis walked into that tent. He didn't have to, but he did. He didn't have to have sex with Jack Twist either. But he did.

Well, I disagree there. If anything I think the performance is underrated.

Ennis went into the tent because he was freezing! (Not because he wanted to jump Jack.)

Holiday

01-03-2009, 11:53 PM

Yeah...he's so comfortable that he lies to everyone but Ennis, and the male hooker that he picked up. He's so comfortable that he never allows Ennis to visit him. Instead, it's always Jack visiting Ennis. (So he can keep his sham marriage in tact.)

For text sizes, highlight the text you want to change, and then go up to the number box between the text style and the big letter 'A'. :yay:

:huh: How could he have come out at that time in Texas? And Ennis couldn't afford to visit Jack, that's why Jack drove up to see him.

*Thanks for helping me with small text though.*

The Senator

01-03-2009, 11:57 PM

:huh: How could he have come out at that time in Texas? And Ennis couldn't afford to visit Jack, that's why Jack drove up to see him.

*Thanks for helping me with small text though.*

Easy: They could have moved to San Francisco and that would be the end of it. No need to come out in Texas or Wyoming, no need to worry about being killed, no need to piss and moan about buying a ranch together... they could get an apartment in the Castro and life would have been a lot easier...

Holiday

01-03-2009, 11:58 PM

Ennis went into the tent because he was freezing! (Not because he wanted to jump Jack.)

Dude, he was on top. He knew what he was doing and what he wanted. If Jack was on top maybe you'd have an argument but he wasn't, so you don't.

Marx

01-03-2009, 11:58 PM

:huh: How could he have come out at that time in Texas? And Ennis couldn't afford to visit Jack, that's why Jack drove up to see him.

*Thanks for helping me with small text though.*

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only comment about Ennis' finances was the 'I'd have more of your children if you'd support 'em' line.

As for coming out in Texas, they could have moved.

*you're welcome :cwink:*

Holiday

01-04-2009, 12:01 AM

Easy: They could have moved to San Francisco and that would be the end of it. No need to come out in Texas or Wyoming, no need to worry about being killed, no need to piss and moan about buying a ranch together... they could get an apartment in the Castro and life would have been a lot easier...

They were ranchers! They couldn't live in the city. Hell, Ennis had hardly education. And Jack couldn't even sell tractors for a livin'.

Marx

01-04-2009, 12:02 AM

Dude, he was on top. He knew what he was doing and what he wanted. If Jack was on top maybe you'd have an argument but he wasn't, so you don't.

Ennis was freezing on the ground outside. Jack invited him in TO GET OUT OF THE COLD. They were both asleep, then Jack grabs Ennis' arm and moves Ennis' hand down toward his crotch. You said that Ennis didn't have to go into the tent, like it was somehow his intention all along to jump Jack. And that wasn't the case. Jack invited him in and initiated the whole thing.

Holiday

01-04-2009, 12:04 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only comment about Ennis' finances was the 'I'd have more of your children if you'd support 'em' line.

As for coming out in Texas, they could have moved.

*you're welcome :cwink:*

I can't remember any specific lines but it is shown that Ennis has little money. Certainly not enough to drive down to Texas every weekend, or any weekend for that matter.

The Senator

01-04-2009, 12:06 AM

As far as the tent scene; Ennis walked into that tent. He didn't have to, but he did. He didn't have to have sex with Jack Twist either. But he did.

Yes, he had sex with Jack, but that didn't mean that Jack should have expected anything in return. Jack concocts a fantasy about a life he wishes to have with Ennis, something which Ennis obviously doesn't want. Even after Jack dies, it is uncertain as to whether Ennis would actually have wanted to spend his remaining days with Jack on that ranch he babbles on about. All we know is that Ennis is deeply upset by Jack's death. Moreover, Jack is sex-obsessed and stubborn. He knew Ennis didn't want a relationship with him beyond what they had for years; he easily could have broken it off and found someone else. But he didn't, he kept provoking Ennis and expected something which wasn't meant to be.

Jack Twist is ultimately a sexual predator who refuses to let go of something he can never truly have.

Well, I disagree there. If anything I think the performance is underrated.

How? All Heath Ledger does the entire film is mumble his lines and sometimes yell or cry. Nothing more. His whole performance is a manipulation of the audience, but he does it so poorly, he makes Ennis Del Mar a stereotypical masculine closet case. Worse yet, his character is plain forgettable, and had Heath Ledger lived, I doubt this would be considered one of his definitive roles in the decade ahead.

Holiday

01-04-2009, 12:08 AM

Ennis was freezing on the ground outside. Jack invited him in TO GET OUT OF THE COLD. They were both asleep, then Jack grabs Ennis' arm and moves Ennis' hand down toward his crotch. You said that Ennis didn't have to go into the tent, like it was somehow his intention all along to jump Jack. And that wasn't the case. Jack invited him in and initiated the whole thing.

I believe Jack just wrapped his arm around him, like to spoon, not towards his crotch. And Ennis didn't have to go through with it. But he did because he wanted to. Not because he was forced or anything.

The Senator

01-04-2009, 12:08 AM

They were ranchers! They couldn't live in the city. Hell, Ennis had hardly education. And Jack couldn't even sell tractors for a livin'.

There are a breadth of jobs the uneducated could perform in the big city. In fact, being uneducated, impoverished and a single father made Ennis a prime candidate for welfare...

Marx

01-04-2009, 12:10 AM

I believe Jack just wrapped his arm around him, like to spoon, not towards his crotch. And Ennis didn't have to go through with it. But he did because he wanted to. Not because he was forced or anything.

If I remember that scene correctly, Jack moves Ennis' arm downward. As for the other part of our debate, I have never said that Ennis was forced. I said that Jack initiated all of it. (With the obvious exception of the kiss outside Ennis' apartment.)

Holiday

01-04-2009, 12:12 AM

There are a breadth of jobs the uneducated could perform in the big city. In fact, being uneducated, impoverished and a single father made Ennis a prime candidate for welfare...

But Ennis didn't want any hand outs. He even tells Jack that in the film he didn't want Jacks money. He couldn't leave his daughters and his life to go to some big city he'd never seen.

The Senator

01-04-2009, 12:17 AM

But Ennis didn't want any hand outs. He even tells Jack that in the film he didn't want Jacks money. He couldn't leave his daughters and his life to go to some big city he'd never seen.

If he really loved Jack, he would have taken his money and started a new life away from the dismal town he lived in.

Holiday

01-04-2009, 12:19 AM

If I remember that scene correctly, Jack moves Ennis' arm downward. As for the other part of our debate, I have never said that Ennis was forced. I said that Jack initiated all of it. (With the obvious exception of the kiss outside Ennis' apartment.)

Because Jack is more comfortable being gay than Ennis was. Ennis obviously had feelings for Twist but was not as comfortable expressing them. Hell, the guy was uncomfortable expressing any feelings, let alone love for another man.

Holiday

01-04-2009, 12:23 AM

If he really loved Jack, he would have taken his money and started a new life away from the dismal town he lived in.

Maybe he didn't want to move out of that dismal town. Some people like little towns, believe it or not. But he had his girls to think of. And he wouldn't fit in in a big city.

The Senator

01-04-2009, 12:28 AM

If Joe Buck could learn to fit in in the big city, Ennis Del Mar could have, too.

Holiday

01-04-2009, 12:42 AM

If Joe Buck could learn to fit in in the big city, Ennis Del Mar could have, too.

The sports announcer? I still just can't see Ennis in the big city. anyways...

I see some of you're argument. Ennis even says himself to Jack, "Is because of you I'm this way. Why can't you just let me be?". I think deep down Ennis loved Jack and wanted that relationship but knew it could never work. So yeah, Jack could have let it go. And he did actually. He found another man.

But I don't the relationship as predatory on Jack's part, Ennis knew what he was doing and what he wanted. Plus, in the tent...

He was on top!!!!111:wow::wow:

spideyboy_1111

01-04-2009, 04:05 PM

yea...that old chestnut...happens all the time....

I appreciate the colors in there though

lol what can i say.. i figured it'd be less confusing that way... anywho.. was a very very odd night for me last night with visiting him and the wife and baby ....

spideyboy_1111

01-04-2009, 04:09 PM

Easy: They could have moved to San Francisco and that would be the end of it. No need to come out in Texas or Wyoming, no need to worry about being killed, no need to piss and moan about buying a ranch together... they could get an apartment in the Castro and life would have been a lot easier...

alot of people didn't do that though... alot of people are afraid to leave there "bubble" for some reason.. yeah its pathetic, but it's also reality.

Marx

01-04-2009, 08:35 PM

Because Jack is more comfortable being gay than Ennis was. Ennis obviously had feelings for Twist but was not as comfortable expressing them. Hell, the guy was uncomfortable expressing any feelings, let alone love for another man.

Ok Holiday. Ok. Whatever you say. :oldrazz:

Holiday

01-04-2009, 08:52 PM

Ok Holiday. Ok. Whatever you say. :oldrazz:

You bet. :yay:

MaskedManJRK

01-04-2009, 10:13 PM

I read there is apparently some flap between Mickey Rourke and Penn over this...rumors in Hollywood are that Penn took the role specifically to try for an Oscar....

Uh...duh? Seriously, what part of that movie doesn't have "Oscar Gold" written all over it?

Does he not like that movie?

I was never interested in that movie--it looked like the gay equivilant of Romeo and Juliet, and, from the sounds of the description of what happened, I wasn't all that far off.

Also, if Sean Penn wins an Oscar for his performance as Harvey Milk, we had better get ready for the most self-serving Oscar acceptance speech in the history of the Academy Awards. I have no doubt that Penn will take full credit for the LGBT movement in what will be a pompous political statement he has no right to make.

Question: If this happens...would it be a hate crime to bum-rush* him?

*I mean in the beat-down fashion, not THAT way, ya pervs.

What we need to do is convince the haters that everyone is at least a little bit gay. Then they won't have an excuse.

iSnNHUaNR_8

I love Ron White, man. Best of the Blue Collar guys. :woot:

Easy: They could have moved to San Francisco and that would be the end of it. No need to come out in Texas or Wyoming, no need to worry about being killed, no need to piss and moan about buying a ranch together... they could get an apartment in the Castro and life would have been a lot easier...

Doesn't the movie take place in, like, the sixties? Was San Fran known as the gay mecca back then?

The Senator

01-04-2009, 11:03 PM

Doesn't the movie take place in, like, the sixties? Was San Fran known as the gay mecca back then?

Yes.

Matt

01-04-2009, 11:17 PM

To quote Marx:

So...How about those gay rights? :cwink:

Besides...

Everyone knows Labyrinth is the definitve gay movie

Joking, joking!

spideyboy_1111

01-04-2009, 11:26 PM

Yes.

not as much as it was known to be in the 70's though...

Holiday

01-04-2009, 11:58 PM

I think the definitive gay movie is Chuck & Buck.

Not really. But has anyone seen that film? Now there's a guy who can't let go of a relationship...

The Senator

01-05-2009, 12:37 AM

spideyboy_1111

01-05-2009, 01:20 AM

The best gay movies imo are...

Milk
Brokeback Mountain
A Beautiful Thing
Get Real
Shelter
Latter Days
and Trick

MaskedManJRK

01-05-2009, 04:15 PM

I enjoy Trick.

But I don't really think a definitive gay movie has been released yet. Queer as Folk is a very good television series which, while not perfect, does show multiple sides of the gay and lesbian community and is a fairly accurate portrayal of what it is like to be a gay American.

Wait, there was scenes in Queer as Folk that didn't take place in night clubs and had a bunch of dudes gyrating and taking Ecstacy? Every time I tried to watch it, that's all I saw.

I really haven't seen many shows/movies that do it justice. F**k Will & Grace.

Ion Kenshin

01-05-2009, 07:11 PM

Wait, there was scenes in Queer as Folk that didn't take place in night clubs and had a bunch of dudes gyrating and taking Ecstacy? Every time I tried to watch it, that's all I saw.

I really haven't seen many shows/movies that do it justice. F**k Will & Grace.
Actually there were tons of scenes that did not include that. They had some very good storylines and touched on a lot of subjects that affect the gay community. Drugs, coming out, AIDS, marriage, equality, same sex couples raising children, and gay bashing.

spideyboy_1111

01-06-2009, 05:10 PM

Actually there were tons of scenes that did not include that. They had some very good storylines and touched on a lot of subjects that affect the gay community. Drugs, coming out, AIDS, marriage, equality, same sex couples raising children, and gay bashing.

QAF had alot of good and alot of bad imo... Sure alot of people in the gay community are very sexual beings, but i dunno i felt many aspects of the show were stereotypical and in some ways demeaning. the only coupled i even liked in the whole show was Michael and his bf..

CaptainClown

01-06-2009, 05:37 PM

Hedwig and the Angry Inch!

MaskedManJRK

01-06-2009, 11:19 PM

One of the better gay movies that comes to mind is The Birdcage. Sure, a lot of the gay characters are templates (the diva performer and such), but I thought they were written with enough demension to be pretty good. Plus it was just hilarious to see Gene Hackman in drag. :up:

Timstuff

01-07-2009, 02:57 AM

No-one has mentioned Top Gun? :huh:

spideyboy_1111

01-07-2009, 03:30 AM

i think this discussion should move to the LGBT thread....

spideyboy_1111

01-07-2009, 06:46 PM

Research Study Finds Having Older Brothers May Be Linked to Being Gay
by GayWired on 1/7 at 5:40 pm.
Viewed 62 times.

A Canadian research study suggests that a man's sexual orientation appears to be determined in the womb.

The study, conducted by Dr. Anthony F. Bogaert of Ontario, asserts that the more biological older brothers a man has, the more likely he is to be gay.

In his investigation, Bogaert studied a sample of 944 gay and straight men, including several who were raised with adopted, half- or step-siblings or were themselves adopted.

He reasoned that if the relationship between having older male siblings and homosexuality was due to family environment or child-rearing practices, it would be seen regardless of whether a man's older brothers were biological or adopted.

Surprisingly, Bogaert discovered that even if a young man did not grow up in the same house as his older brothers, the fact that he had older biological brothers increased his odds of being gay.

One theory suggests that after delivering a boy, a woman's immune system produces antibodies to male-specific proteins. During subsequent pregnancies the mother's placenta may deliver the antibodies to the foetus, possibly affecting its development.

"These results support a prenatal origin to sexual orientation development in men and indicate that the fraternal birth-order effect is probably the result of a maternal 'memory' for male gestations or births," Bogaert wrote in his report published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

A woman's body may see a male fetus as "foreign," Bogaert explains, and her immune response to subsequent male fetuses may grow progressively stronger.

"If this immune theory were correct, then the link between the mother's immune reaction and the child's future sexual orientation would probably be some effect of maternal anti-male antibodies on the sexual differentiation of the brain," he suggests.

In earlier work, Dr. Bogaert and colleagues estimated that about 28% of homosexual men owe their orientation to fraternal birth-order—"a minority, but not a negligible minority, of all homosexual men."

"Whether this is what is really happening for sexual orientation remains to be seen, but it is a provocative hypothesis," the report stated.

source: http://www.justguys.net/newsdetails.htm?id=128&session=10XhvsJGmlGw2r4Jnt6X7fhGe-60443

spideyboy_1111

01-07-2009, 06:46 PM

more support on genetics, but not sure how i feel about it.. considering im an only child.

BlackLantern

01-07-2009, 06:48 PM

It's not like they are saying it's the root cause....I think it's great that scentists and geneticists want to know if there is a gene or some explainable cause....it's about the "Why?"

Ion Kenshin

01-07-2009, 07:04 PM

hmm interesting...my dad was married before so i have an older half brother...my mom had two girls and i was the first boy....its an intriguing theory ...i definately want to see what develops

wiegeabo

01-08-2009, 01:18 AM

http://www.imdb.com/news/ni0643482/

Evans Supports Gay Marriage

Fantastic Four star Chris Evans has come out in support of gay marriage - insisting it is "appalling" for homosexuals in America to be denied the right to wed.

Evans, whose younger brother, Scott, is openly gay, is convinced that U.S. politicians will eventually step in and change the country's laws regarding same-sex unions.

Homosexual couples in California were last year granted the right to wed, but had their rights revoked just months later after the passing of the Proposition 8 bill, which reversed the previous ruling permitting the unions.

And Evans is disgusted that modern society can still be so prejudiced against gay relationships.

He says, "It's mindboggling and appalling that human beings are being denied civil rights in this country. But time will heal all. I have to believe that in 10 years we won't be having this conversation. We'll be having another one, because we'll always find someone to persecute."

The Lizard

01-08-2009, 09:02 AM

Research Study Finds Having Older Brothers May Be Linked to Being Gay

source: http://www.justguys.net/newsdetails.htm?id=128&session=10XhvsJGmlGw2r4Jnt6X7fhGe-60443

Well, that's one possible factor towards my younger brother being gay, I suppose.

cerealkiller182

01-08-2009, 10:13 AM

i agree with Chris Evans' statement: "I have to believe that in 10 years we won't be having this conversation. We'll be having another one, because we'll always find someone to persecute."

Marx

01-08-2009, 12:10 PM

11 GAY BARS SENT LETTERS THREATENING RICIN ATTACKS
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008597989_ricinthreat07m.html?syndication=rss

Eleven gay bars in Seattle were sent letters Tuesday threatening ricin attacks — in what some are describing as a hate crime.

The anonymous letters say, "I have in my possession approximately 67 grams of ricin with which I will indiscriminately target at least five of your clients. ... I expect them to die painfully while in hospital."

A 12th letter was sent to the alternative weekly The Stranger, according to its Web site. That letter says the paper should be "prepared to announce the deaths of approximately 55 individuals."

The letter lists the bars as: The Elite, Neighbours, The Wildrose Bar, The Cuff, Purr, The Seattle Eagle, R Place, Re-bar, C.C.Attle's, Madison Pub and The Crescent. The letter implies the attacks will take place one Saturday this month.

In a statement, the Seattle Police Department said it takes the threat seriously. It has seized the letters and is processing them and is coordinating efforts with the FBI and other federal agencies.

:facepalm

Mister Sinister

01-08-2009, 12:59 PM

Homophobic families harm gay teenagers, study claims
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-10112.html

For the first time ever, researchers have claimed that there is a direct link between homophobic rejection of LGB adolescents by their families and mental health problems.

A peer-reviewed article entitled "Family Rejection as a Predator of Negative Health Outcomes in White and Latino Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Young Adults" summarising the research will appear in a January edition of Pediatrics.

Author of the paper and Director of the Family Acceptance Project at San Francisco State University Dr Caitlin Ryan said:

"For the first time, research has established a predictive link between specific, negative family reactions to their child’s sexual orientation and serious health problems for these adolescents in young adulthood—such as depression, illegal drug use, risk for HIV infection, and suicide attempts.

"The new body of research we are generating will help develop resources, tools and interventions to strengthen families, prevent homelessness, reduce the proportion of youth in foster care and significantly improve the lives of LGBT young people and their families."

The researchers claim that parents' rejection of their children over issues of sexuality dramatically compromises their health.

The study found that LGB young people who had experienced higher levels of rejection from their family were 8.4 times more likely to attempt suicide, and almost 6 times more likely to become depressed, than young people who experienced no rejection from their families.

Rejected LGB teenagers were also found to be 3.4 times more likely to use drugs and 3.4 times more likely to engage in unprotected sex than other young people.

Dr Ryan went on to say: "We are using our research to develop a new model of family-related care to decrease the high levels of risk for LGBT young people that restrict life chances and full participation in society.

"Our easy-to-use behavioral approach will help families increase supportive behaviors and modify behaviors their LGBT children experience as rejecting that significantly increase their children’s risk.

"However, redirecting practice and professional training, from not asking about family reactions to a young person’s LGBT identity to engaging families in promoting their LGBT children’s well-being, requires a substantial shift on the part of both mainstream and LGBT providers, health systems and community programs."

Commenting on the new study, Dr Sten Vermund, Chair of Global Health at Vanderbilt University, said:

"In today's often hostile climate for LGBT youth, it is especially important to note that both mental health issues like depression and suicide and HIV risk behaviours were greatly increased by rejection.

"Given the ongoing HIV epidemic in America, in which half of all new cases of HIV are found in men who have sex with men and there is growing concern about prevention messages reaching young people, it is vital that we share these findings with parents and service providers who work with youth in every way.

"When put to practical, day-to-day use and shared with families and those who serve LGBT youth, these findings will lead to healthier, more supportive family dynamics and better lives for LGBT young people."