Discussion: Gay Rights II

[Marx]

It truly is a shame when proms are still segregated and you cannot bring the person you love to a high school dance. It's a shame that any of this is still an issue in 2010.

[Mystirious]

It truly is a shame when proms are still segregated and you cannot bring the person you love to a high school dance. It's a shame that any of this is still an issue in 2010.

Like most things about Mississipi, it's a bad joke. Kind of like the punchline to a lengthy skit about "What if the Nazi's won world war 2?"

The morons in charge of that high school aren't even worth the energy it would take to despise them. Instead I feel a kind of disgust, best summed up as: Imagine you had just found a diseased rodent in your bed

That's the level of disgust, contempt and repulsion these loathsome little bigots engender in me with this archaic, braindead BULL-***

I mean was Mississipi created like the modern day Australia, only instead of convicts it was the mentally disabled?

[Marx]

Conservatives are not mentally disabled man.

[wiegeabo]

Indeed. There a number of gay conservatives, and conservatives who believe in gay rights (and equal rights for everyone). And there are liberals who don't believe in gay rights.

Conservatives are not automatically fascists. Just like Democrats are not automatically communists, and Libertarians are not automatically anarchists.

[Trainwreck2100]

It truly is a shame when proms are still segregated and you cannot bring the person you love to a high school dance. It's a shame that any of this is still an issue in 2010.

proms are age segregated i don't hear anyone complaining about that

[Marx]

proms are age segregated i don't hear anyone complaining about that

How do you mean? Proms have always been junior/senior. That being said, I did go to a prom as a sophomore.

[Trainwreck2100]

How do you mean? Proms have always been junior/senior. That being said, I did go to a prom as a sophomore.

I mean that prom dates have an age limit, the age limit for my prom was 20

[Marx]

I mean that prom dates have an age limit, the age limit for my prom was 20

I don't remember my school having an age limit. I do remember a girl bringing a date who was 24 though.

[wiegeabo]

But age is something that can be applied to everyone equally.

Race and sexuality are not.

[Marx]

But age is something that can be applied to everyone equally.

Race and sexuality are not.

That's a good point wieg.

[wiegeabo]

I don't remember my school having an age limit. I do remember a girl bringing a date who was 24 though.

I don't remember a limit either, but if the date was over a certain age, proof of permission was required.

[Marx]

UPDATE: ACLU FILES LAWSUIT AGAINST MISSISSIPPI SCHOOL FOR DECISION TO CANCEL PROM
http://us.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/03/11/mississippi.prom.suit/index.html

[Marx]

UPDATE: ARCHDIOCESE DEFENDS DECISION TO DENY CHILDREN OF GAY PARENTS ENROLLMENT
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/10/colorado.lesbians.church/index.html?hpt=T2

[Sloth7d]

Okay Mississip really? The schools thought it would be constitutional to use their religious beliefs to enforce anti-gay policies in a school and thereby forcing their beliefs on to the students, even though it was found unconstitutional to hold prayer sessions in school? And don't anyone tell me this policy has nothing to do with religion. I know there are non-religious homophobes, but so far I've only seen the religious ones try to mandate legislature against homosexuality.

[E-Man]

UPDATE: ARCHDIOCESE DEFENDS DECISION TO DENY CHILDREN OF GAY PARENTS ENROLLMENT
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/10/colorado.lesbians.church/index.html?hpt=T2

This is depressing and enraging at the same time. It's funny that love and acceptance goes out the window when it comes to sexual orientation. Let's tell the story of the prodigal son, and how God accepts you no matter how you are or what you've done. Those gay people though, we can't accept that abomination. They'll have to burn in hell without our "help.":whatever:

[Kelly]

Basically, the church sees this as a sin. Therefore "love the sinner, hate the sin" is what is happening in these cases. It is a debate of what people believe is right and wrong, not a debate of love for these people IMO, at least in many cases where the church is involved. Until there is empirical data that shows the reality of homosexuality as a born reality, rather than choice, this debate will happen.

I'm not saying that the data is not already out there, I believe it is an issue of both with the biological portion the most influential. BUT, until it is proof that is as substantial as "tobacco causes cancer"...this will be the debate.

[Sloth7d]

It's a private catholic school. Getting upset over this is like getting upset over a black guy's child being denied at klan rallys. You know their stance on gays. This is their private institution. To get riled up about this only proves the thought that they will be forced to perform gay marriages against their will should gay marriage become legal in all the states.

[Marx]

Basically, the church sees this as a sin. Therefore "love the sinner, hate the sin" is what is happening in these cases. It is a debate of what people believe is right and wrong, not a debate of love for these people IMO, at least in many cases where the church is involved. Until there is empirical data that shows the reality of homosexuality as a born reality, rather than choice, this debate will happen.

I'm not saying that the data is not already out there, I believe it is an issue of both with the biological portion the most influential. BUT, until it is proof that is as substantial as "tobacco causes cancer"...this will be the debate.

I would encourage anyone who believes that homosexuality is a choice to ask any gay person if they 'chose' to be gay.

[Paradoxium]

In a technical sense, a feminist might argue it is a choice based on some of their arguments

[wiegeabo]

I would encourage anyone who believes that homosexuality is a choice to ask any gay person if they 'chose' to be gay.

And ask any straight person if they 'chose' to be straight.

[Marx]

And ask any straight person if they 'chose' to be straight.

Exactly.

[Paradoxium]

What I meant earlier is, feminists (well more leftist ones, not like the ones from ifeminists) believe gender roles and behavior are all learned and are not a result of a biological foundation. This also goes in line with progressive thinking as well. A tabula rasa of sorts; this is why progressives (and some neocons) justify molding and social engineering human beings through legislation.

[Mystirious]

Conservatives are not mentally disabled man.



Indeed. There a number of gay conservatives, and conservatives who believe in gay rights (and equal rights for everyone). And there are liberals who don't believe in gay rights.

Conservatives are not automatically fascists. Just like Democrats are not automatically communists, and Libertarians are not automatically anarchists.

I'm not saying that all conservatives are anti gay or idiots. Sorry if that's how I've come across

I'm saying that those who would segregate a prom, or prevent a lesbian couple from attending a prom are idiots and bigots. I don't care if there Conservatives or Liberals or flag burning Anarchists. It's not someones political affiliation that matters to me, it's their actions. :yay:


proms are age segregated i don't hear anyone complaining about that


Age segregation and racial and sexual segregation are not even close to comparable.

[Kelly]

When I say choice, I mean in the respect to living in the open, and open gay lifestyle. I'm sure there are many on this site that are gay, but chose for whatever to reason to not talk about or live open, on this site so to speak. That is a choice, as far as choice to be gay. I honestly, can only simply believe what people say in that respect. I have not seen enough in the way of data to prove otherwise, so I chose to simply believe them when they say, that their lifestyle is not a choice.

[Mystirious]

When I say choice, I mean in the respect to living in the open, and open gay lifestyle. I'm sure there are many on this site that are gay, but chose for whatever to reason to not talk about or live open, on this site so to speak. That is a choice, as far as choice to be gay. I honestly, can only simply believe what people say in that respect. I have not seen enough in the way of data to prove otherwise, so I chose to simply believe them when they say, that their lifestyle is not a choice.

It's not a choice. But bluntly, would it matter if it was?

I always find something a little skin crawling about the "It's not a choice, it's the way their BORN" arguement.

Let's say, hypothetically, that it WAS a choice. Yeah, I know it's not, you know it's not, anyone with half a brain knows it's not. But playing pretend. If it was a choice, would it suddenly be okay to persecute people for being gay?

I'd say no, and I'd hope that the people on this thread would agree with me there. But I wonder about some people in the world and just how far their "Tolerance" really goes.

[wiegeabo]

If it was a choice, would it be any different than choosing a religion? And that's a protected right. It's a way a person wants to live that hurts no one else. And it's also seen as a sin in the eyes of some religions, but it's still allowed as a fundamental right. So why shouldn't sexuality be a protected choice?

[Sloth7d]

If it was a choice, would it be any different than choosing a religion? And that's a protected right. It's a way a person wants to live that hurts no one else. And it's also seen as a sin in the eyes of some religions, but it's still allowed as a fundamental right. So why shouldn't sexuality be a protected choice?

That's America for you. We can accept people wearing a robe as being part of religious practices, accept people wearing a kilts as part of heritage, accept people who walk around with a symbol of an item that was highly used in the execution of others many years ago akin to how electric chairs are common use now, accept people who circumcise their children, accept people who refuse to shave out of religious devotion, but the instant Ted hold Jimmy's hand all bets are off.

[JewishHobbit]

Honestly, and I am a christian myself, I don't really get the choice/born argument. It isn't about that at all. If a person believes that homosexuality is a sin (and I do) it's the sin that they're against, not the people.

People say it's wrong to be against a natural way of life, so it becomes a choice/born argument. But it's not at all.

As a christian, I also believe that having premarital sex, or sex outside of marraige, is a sin. Now, I'm born with the human erge to have sex, a lot, with every female I find attractive. That's a natural born part of the male species, or for me anyhow. Being BORN with that desire isn't the sin, it's the CHOICE to actually follow through with it, and the act thereof, that becomes the sin.

Same with homosexuality in the eyes of a Christian. Being born a homosexual isn't a sin, and if a homsexual man or woman chose to deny themselves their natural lusts like a straight person would, then all's well. It's not a born vs choice deal, it's an act thereof deal. Christians just seem to forget that.

I know it's not a popular belief, nor is it entirely fair, but I believe it. But I also believe that at no time should a homosexual person be looked down on by Christians for embracing their sexuality. Yes, we believe it's a sin, and it may be, but the Bible also says that no sin is greater than any other and thus that person is by no means beneath any of us (Christians). We're all equal in God's eyes.

Eh, I'm tired and rambling. I hope that all made sense.

[redhawk23]

Honestly, and I am a christian myself, I don't really get the choice/born argument. It isn't about that at all. If a person believes that homosexuality is a sin (and I do) it's the sin that they're against, not the people.

People say it's wrong to be against a natural way of life, so it becomes a choice/born argument. But it's not at all.

As a christian, I also believe that having premarital sex, or sex outside of marraige, is a sin. Now, I'm born with the human erge to have sex, a lot, with every female I find attractive. That's a natural born part of the male species, or for me anyhow. Being BORN with that desire isn't the sin, it's the CHOICE to actually follow through with it, and the act thereof, that becomes the sin.

Same with homosexuality in the eyes of a Christian. Being born a homosexual isn't a sin, and if a homsexual man or woman chose to deny themselves their natural lusts like a straight person would, then all's well. It's not a born vs choice deal, it's an act thereof deal. Christians just seem to forget that.

I know it's not a popular belief, nor is it entirely fair, but I believe it. But I also believe that at no time should a homosexual person be looked down on by Christians for embracing their sexuality. Yes, we believe it's a sin, and it may be, but the Bible also says that no sin is greater than any other and thus that person is by no means beneath any of us (Christians). We're all equal in God's eyes.

Eh, I'm tired and rambling. I hope that all made sense.

Sin or not, it is still within your legal rights to do it with any consenting of age female you see fit without getting married.

The Law does not abide by any one religion, no matter how large and far reachings definition of sin.

[BMM]

Honestly, and I am a christian myself, I don't really get the choice/born argument. It isn't about that at all. If a person believes that homosexuality is a sin (and I do) it's the sin that they're against, not the people.

People say it's wrong to be against a natural way of life, so it becomes a choice/born argument. But it's not at all.

As a christian, I also believe that having premarital sex, or sex outside of marraige, is a sin. Now, I'm born with the human erge to have sex, a lot, with every female I find attractive. That's a natural born part of the male species, or for me anyhow. Being BORN with that desire isn't the sin, it's the CHOICE to actually follow through with it, and the act thereof, that becomes the sin.

Same with homosexuality in the eyes of a Christian. Being born a homosexual isn't a sin, and if a homsexual man or woman chose to deny themselves their natural lusts like a straight person would, then all's well. It's not a born vs choice deal, it's an act thereof deal. Christians just seem to forget that.

I know it's not a popular belief, nor is it entirely fair, but I believe it. But I also believe that at no time should a homosexual person be looked down on by Christians for embracing their sexuality. Yes, we believe it's a sin, and it may be, but the Bible also says that no sin is greater than any other and thus that person is by no means beneath any of us (Christians). We're all equal in God's eyes.

Eh, I'm tired and rambling. I hope that all made sense.

Your post makes perfect sense (the difference between homosexuality and homo-genital actions and how homo-genital actions are subject to the same scrutiny as any other sexual encounter outside of marriage), and it's one of the few educated posts from a self-proclaimed Christian that I think is even worth reading on the Hype, regarding this matter.

That said, I agree with this.

Sin or not, it is still within your legal rights to do it with any consenting of age female you see fit without getting married.

The Law does not abide by any one religion, no matter how large and far reachings definition of sin.

While it may be a legitimate reason within the confines of Christianity, I don’t think it’s a legitimate enough reason for the State to concern itself with the regulation of marriage, or any other potential rights belonging to homosexuals, in this way.

[Mystirious]

Your post makes perfect sense (the difference between homosexuality and homo-genital actions and how homo-genital actions are subject to the same scrutiny as any other sexual encounter outside of marriage), and it's one of the few educated posts from a self-proclaimed Christian that I think is even worth reading on the Hype, regarding this matter.


NO. No it doesn't. What two consenting adults of ANY gender do with each other is NO ONE'S business. NO ONE has the right to tell them it's a "Sin" or that their going to "Hell" (Yeah right...like hell exists:whatever:)

The idea that homosexuality is only okay if the people repress themselves and "Choose" not to have sex with someone of the same gender is ludicrous. We can have sex with whoever the hell we want and that's not a "Sin" nor does anyone have the right to "Scrutinise" it.

And I note that all these religious men and women who feel within their rights to tell us how to live react with anger and self righteous indignation when anyone criticises their religion. Hypocrisy, much? I guess it's perfectly fine to run around telling everyone you don't like that their going to hell. But simply terrible for anyone to criticise someone for it.

NO ONE has the right to tell homosexuals that what they do isn't right or that it's a "Sin". So no, that post DOESN'T make sense. It's homophobic and I'm ashamed to see it on a thread that I would think would be free of such things.

[mrvlknight21]

NO. No it doesn't. What two consenting adults of ANY gender do with each other is NO ONE'S business. NO ONE has the right to tell them it's a "Sin" or that their going to "Hell" (Yeah right...like hell exists:whatever:)

The idea that homosexuality is only okay if the people repress themselves and "Choose" not to have sex with someone of the same gender is ludicrous. We can have sex with whoever the hell we want and that's not a "Sin" nor does anyone have the right to "Scrutinise" it.

And I note that all these religious men and women who feel within their rights to tell us how to live react with anger and self righteous indignation when anyone criticises their religion. Hypocrisy, much? I guess it's perfectly fine to run around telling everyone you don't like that their going to hell. But simply terrible for anyone to criticise someone for it.

NO ONE has the right to tell homosexuals that what they do isn't right or that it's a "Sin". So no, that post DOESN'T make sense. It's homophobic and I'm ashamed to see it on a thread that I would think would be free of such things.

There is a lot of presumptuous thinking and generalization in your post.

[Schlosser85]

NO. No it doesn't. What two consenting adults of ANY gender do with each other is NO ONE'S business. NO ONE has the right to tell them it's a "Sin" or that their going to "Hell" (Yeah right...like hell exists:whatever:)

The idea that homosexuality is only okay if the people repress themselves and "Choose" not to have sex with someone of the same gender is ludicrous. We can have sex with whoever the hell we want and that's not a "Sin" nor does anyone have the right to "Scrutinise" it.

And I note that all these religious men and women who feel within their rights to tell us how to live react with anger and self righteous indignation when anyone criticises their religion. Hypocrisy, much? I guess it's perfectly fine to run around telling everyone you don't like that their going to hell. But simply terrible for anyone to criticise someone for it.

NO ONE has the right to tell homosexuals that what they do isn't right or that it's a "Sin". So no, that post DOESN'T make sense. It's homophobic and I'm ashamed to see it on a thread that I would think would be free of such things.

While I consider myself both gay and a Christian and absolutely do not believe gay people should repress their sexuality, as that is basically asking them to live their lives alone and never have a romantic relationship, JewishHobbit's post was worded respectfully and intelligently and doesn't deserve your combative response.

Religious people have the right to believe what their religion tells them, or at least through their personal interpretation of it. I personally do not believe homosexuality is a sin, but people have the right to their personal beliefs. The only problem is when they use those beliefs to attack other people, which JewishHobbit didn't strike me as trying to do.

And as for being "ashamed to see it on a thread that I would think would be free of such things", the thread is for a DISCUSSION of gay rights, not exclusively for gay members of the Hype (there is one of those in the community section). While myself and a number of others who post regularly in this thread are openly gay, and the majority support gay rights, there is no rule against dissenting opinions.

Frankly your overly combative tone doesn't do your (our) cause any favors. I don't completely agree with JewishHobbit, but his tone was much more respectful than yours.

[StorminNorman]

NO. No it doesn't. What two consenting adults of ANY gender do with each other is NO ONE'S business. NO ONE has the right to tell them it's a "Sin" or that their going to "Hell" (Yeah right...like hell exists:whatever:)

The idea that homosexuality is only okay if the people repress themselves and "Choose" not to have sex with someone of the same gender is ludicrous. We can have sex with whoever the hell we want and that's not a "Sin" nor does anyone have the right to "Scrutinise" it.

And I note that all these religious men and women who feel within their rights to tell us how to live react with anger and self righteous indignation when anyone criticises their religion. Hypocrisy, much? I guess it's perfectly fine to run around telling everyone you don't like that their going to hell. But simply terrible for anyone to criticise someone for it.

NO ONE has the right to tell homosexuals that what they do isn't right or that it's a "Sin". So no, that post DOESN'T make sense. It's homophobic and I'm ashamed to see it on a thread that I would think would be free of such things.

I'm sorry, JewHob, that your wonderfully stated post is in anyway connected to this post.

It's funny that you condemn others for condemning a life style, while condemning Christianity. It's awesome that you rail against hypocrisy, while being hypocritical.

[TheFuture]

It's true that taking an insulting tone will not further one's cause, however you have to put yourself in the shoes of a gay person. They are up against a juggernaut, an uphill struggle to gain the full scope of rights that they feel they deserve. The people they are up against hold all the cards and have nothing to lose by taking a contemptuous tone with gay people. However gay people have everything to lose by responding in the same contemptuous manner. It's not really a fair scenario and I can imagine it can get incredibly frustrating.

[Schlosser85]

^ Yes, it does get incredibly frustrating, to the point where sometimes I literally feel like screaming.

But JewishHobbit wasn't taking a contemptuous tone, and didn't deserve to be treated contemptuously.

[StorminNorman]

It's true that taking an insulting tone will not further one's cause, however you have to put yourself in the shoes of a gay person. They are up against a juggernaut, an uphill struggle to gain the full scope of rights that they feel they deserve. The people they are up against hold all the cards and have nothing to lose by taking a contemptuous tone with gay people. However gay people have everything to lose by responding in the same contemptuous manner. It's not really a fair scenario and I can imagine it can get incredibly frustrating.

I'm a libertarian - I don't need to walk a mile in a another mans *insert type of shoe associated with GLBT community here* to know what's it's like to go against a juggernaut.

[Mystirious]

I'm sorry, JewHob, that your wonderfully stated post is in anyway connected to this post.

It's funny that you condemn others for condemning a life style, while condemning Christianity. It's awesome that you rail against hypocrisy, while being hypocritical.

Where do I condemn christianity?

Plenty of Christians are gay. Plenty of Christians support gay rights. I have NOTHING against Christians, Jews, Hindu's, Bhuddists or hell, people who worship Satan. Whatever someone worships that's their business.

What I am condemning and what I have a problem with is bigotry. And saying that homosexuality is a "Sin" is, as far as I am concerned, bigotry.

I don't care WHY someone has a problem with homosexuality. If they do, then their a bigot in my eyes. Simple as that.


There is a lot of presumptuous thinking and generalization in your post.


How so? Not being sarcastic, genuinely curious what I said that struck you as such.

The only point I was trying to get across was that consenting adults have the right to do whatever and whoever they want, with regards to sex and sexuality.

And trying to prevent them from doing so, or persecuting or harassing them for doing so, is not only stupid but bigoted as well. I'd hope anyone with any sense would agree with me there


^ Yes, it does get incredibly frustrating, to the point where sometimes I literally feel like screaming.

But JewishHobbit wasn't taking a contemptuous tone, and didn't deserve to be treated contemptuously.


He calmly walked in and basically said that I, my friends and everyone like me are "Sinful" simply for existing. I felt that required a response.


While I consider myself both gay and a Christian and absolutely do not believe gay people should repress their sexuality, as that is basically asking them to live their lives alone and never have a romantic relationship, JewishHobbit's post was worded respectfully and intelligently and doesn't deserve your combative response.

Religious people have the right to believe what their religion tells them, or at least through their personal interpretation of it. I personally do not believe homosexuality is a sin, but people have the right to their personal beliefs. The only problem is when they use those beliefs to attack other people, which JewishHobbit didn't strike me as trying to do.



I didn't aim to be "Combatative". A poster stated that they felt homosexual acts were "Sinful" I posted my belief that no one has the right to tell others that their lifestyle or the way they are is "Wrong".

And I personally feel that saying that homosexual acts are a "Sin" IS an attack, of a verbal nature. I get enough of that on the street, I don't need to hear it here as well.

[Kelly]

It's true that taking an insulting tone will not further one's cause, however you have to put yourself in the shoes of a gay person. They are up against a juggernaut, an uphill struggle to gain the full scope of rights that they feel they deserve. The people they are up against hold all the cards and have nothing to lose by taking a contemptuous tone with gay people. However gay people have everything to lose by responding in the same contemptuous manner. It's not really a fair scenario and I can imagine it can get incredibly frustrating.

As have women, and blacks....yet I've seen debate, after debate, after debate where discussions can be had without an insulting tone.


It takes some work, but it can be done.

[Mystirious]

I apologise if I have rubbed people the wrong way on this thread. But I am not what you'd call passive about this issue. I am, I will be frank, FURIOUS at the state of the world, at the amount of sheer intolerance directed at me and people like me who are also LGBT.

I'm not out to start a fight here. But the fact is that the way the world is makes me see red.

I won't apologise for saying that I hate bigots. I do. I loathe them with a fiery passion and that will never change. Nor will I apologise for saying that I believe all people deserve the right to love whoever they want, however they want and that no one has the right to tell them it is wrong

But I will apologise if I have been overly aggresive or confrontational in the way I have made my points. It's just that sometimes I feel like no one in the world is listening unless you scream.

[Addendum]

My mp3 player drowns out screams

[Kelly]

and the drugs.....:oldrazz:

[Marx]

Sin or not, it is still within your legal rights to do it with any consenting of age female you see fit without getting married.

The Law does not abide by any one religion, no matter how large and far reachings definition of sin.

Exactly.
He calmly walked in and basically said that I, my friends and everyone like me are "Sinful" simply for existing. I felt that required a response.

I didn't aim to be "Combatative". A poster stated that they felt homosexual acts were "Sinful" I posted my belief that no one has the right to tell others that their lifestyle or the way they are is "Wrong".

And I personally feel that saying that homosexual acts are a "Sin" IS an attack, of a verbal nature. I get enough of that on the street, I don't need to hear it here as well.

There are a range of opinions in this thread Mysterious. I've said it before, and I'll said it again...having an opinion different from yours is simply that - an opinion that is different from yours. JewHob's response was one of the most respectful, thoughtful, and intelligent posts I have read with that opinion.

Stating that homosexuality is a 'sin' is an opinion. Not an attack. Had JewHob said 'I hope you burn in hell for such an abomination'...that is an attack.

[TheFuture]

As have women, and blacks....yet I've seen debate, after debate, after debate where discussions can be had without an insulting tone.


It takes some work, but it can be done.

It is, in my humble opinion, different when it comes to gay rights. In relation to the civil rights african americans fought tooth and nail for, the movement shared a strong common foundation with white america; religion. That foundation served as the bed rock in breaking down barriers.

Women also had the advantage as not being seen as "sinful" in the eyes of those they were lobbying for change.

This is the problem when it comes to gay rights; there's no common bond or foundation between the gay community and those that they are lobbying for change.

[Mystirious]

There are a range of opinions in this thread Mysterious. I've said it before, and I'll said it again, having an opinion different from yours is simply that - an opinion that is different from yours. JewHob's response was one of the most respectful, thoughtful, and intelligent posts I have read with that opinion.

Stating that homosexuality is a 'sin' is an opinion. Not an attack. Had JewHob said 'I hope you burn in hell for such an abomination'...that is an attack.

The last time I checked, those who sin according to most religions DO go to hell. So to me, that was basically what the poster in question was saying.

[Addendum]

and the drugs.....:oldrazz:
Except caffeine

[Kelly]

It is, in my humble opinion, different when it comes to gay rights. In relation to the civil rights african americans fought tooth and nail for, the movement shared a strong common foundation with white america; religion. That foundation served as the bed rock in breaking down barriers.

Women also had the advantage as not being seen as "sinful" in the eyes of those they were lobbying for change.

This is the problem when it comes to gay rights; there's no common bond or foundation between the gay community and those that they are lobbying for change.

But the one thing that the Gay Right's Movement does have that these other two movements did not, is a voice in the Political System of this country. This movement is starting with freedoms that the other two groups had to fight for, EVEN BEFORE they true battles began. The learning curve is much less IMO.

[Mystirious]

But the one thing that the Gay Right's Movement does have that these other two movements did not, is a voice in the Political System of this country. This movement is starting with freedoms that the other two groups had to fight for, EVEN BEFORE they true battles began. The learning curve is much less IMO.

Doesn't help much when the bigoted older generation has the majority of the votes

Fortunately polls show that the majority of the younger generation are smart enough to see that those who are LGBT deserve equal rights. So it's just a matter of waiting for the defective dinosaurs to die off and let the mentally superior younger generation replace them

Which hopefully won't take long. :woot:

[TheFuture]

But the one thing that the Gay Right's Movement does have that these other two movements did not, is a voice in the Political System of this country. This movement is starting with freedoms that the other two groups had to fight for, EVEN BEFORE they true battles began. The learning curve is much less IMO.

True, but they are still in the minority, with their fate still very much in the hands of a considerable majority that see them as abominations. As long as people use their religion to justify their hatefulness the gay rights movement will struggle to achieve the full scope of what they want.

[Marx]

..which is why equal rights should never be left in the hands of the voters.

[Kelly]

True, but they are still in the minority, with their fate still very much in the hands of a considerable majority that see them as abominations. As long as people use their religion to justify their hatefulness the gay rights movement will struggle to achieve the full scope of what they want.

Well, honestly, being in the minority is something that is going to have to be worked with, because I'm not sure that is changing....

I guess, I having grown up in the church, and having friends that are pastors, as well as friends who are gay.....AND they all know each other well. My friends who are gay, know that these pastors do not believe their lifestyle is right....but they would never say that these people are hateful, hate them, or have shown anything towards them but love. They simply do not agree on a huge issue. Now, mind you they don't hang out together, usually my time is spent separately with these friends....but when a gay friend of mine lost his mother, he called this pastor to do her funeral. His mother didn't approve of his lifestyle either, but never closed her door on her son. He respected that, he respected her beliefs and her funeral was a Christian funeral, with a Southern Baptist preacher because that is what she grew up as....

Different people, different opinions, but respect is still there. I see that all the time.

[Kelly]

..which is why equal rights should never be left in the hands of the voters.

That is true, but the fact is, it is votes that put these representatives into office. Whether we vote for this specific issue or not....that ability to vote is still VERY IMPORTANT.

[Mystirious]

Well, honestly, being in the minority is something that is going to have to be worked with, because I'm not sure that is changing....

I guess, I having grown up in the church, and having friends that are pastors, as well as friends who are gay.....AND they all know each other well. My friends who are gay, know that these pastors do not believe their lifestyle is right....but they would never say that these people are hateful, hate them, or have shown anything towards them but love. They simply do not agree on a huge issue. Now, mind you they don't hang out together, usually my time is spent separately with these friends....but when a gay friend of mine lost his mother, he called this pastor to do her funeral. His mother didn't approve of his lifestyle either, but never closed her door on her son. He respected that, he respected her beliefs and her funeral was a Christian funeral, with a Southern Baptist preacher because that is what she grew up as....

Different people, different opinions, but respect is still there. I see that all the time.

No offence but I can't even understand how anyone could feel that way.

I couldn't even be in the same room as someone like these "pastors" without feeling physically ill. To me there is no grey area when it comes to tolerance

Someone either accepts me and those like me whole heatedly or their the enemy. No compromises.

..which is why equal rights should never be left in the hands of the voters.

Agreed. Honestly I find the idea of equal rights being decided by VOTERS of all people not only ludicrous but dangerous.

But then I'm against Democracy in general, and all forms of government.

[Marx]

That is true, but the fact is, it is votes that put these representatives into office. Whether we vote for this specific issue or not....that ability to vote is still VERY IMPORTANT.
That's true. Ultimately, this is going to come down to a Supreme Court ruling.

[Kelly]

Ummmm....maybe....

It will be a legislative move, and IMO, that is where this movement needs to head. I've been a part of several organizations pushing legislation that I am passionate about. You have to put the leather to pavement, spend time in Washington, spend time in the district offices of the representatives, postage, etc....it can be done.

If churches are not forced to do these weddings, then they don't necessarily have a leg to stand on...

Possibly, states might scream, state's rights....that is where the Supreme Court might end up having to deal with this...but that would be years down the road.

[-Arya-]

That's true. Ultimately, this is going to come down to a Supreme Court ruling.
Im not sure if their ruling is any better than the voters.

[Kelly]

No offence but I can't even understand how anyone could feel that way.

I couldn't even be in the same room as someone like these "pastors" without feeling physically ill. To me there is no grey area when it comes to tolerance

Someone either accepts me and those like me whole heatedly or their the enemy. No compromises.


Well, as I said before different people, different opinions....respect. I find that when I respect others differences of beliefs and opinions, they respect me and my opinions and beliefs. I don't have to agree with a person in order to respect them.

[Mystirious]

Well, as I said before different people, different opinions....respect. I find that when I respect others differences of beliefs and opinions, they respect me and my opinions and beliefs. I don't have to agree with a person in order to respect them.


There's disagreements and then there's stuff like this

If someone doesn't have the exact same opinion as me I don't care. A lot of people I know differ with me on several issues.

But if someone isn't tolerant of people who are LGBT and tolerant of all forms of sexuality then I have no respect for them and want nothing to do with them.

So I don't have to agree with someone on EVERYTHING in order to respect them. But yeah, if someone disgarees with me that there is NOTHING wrong with being LGBT and that we deserve equal rights, then I have no respect for them

[Kelly]

I just had this wonderful mental image...screams of agony coming from every state against equal rights for those who are LGBT

Gave me such a lovely warm glow.

Pain and suffering are SO sweet

Hey they screamed about slavery, why would it be such a shock?

Here's the thing....doesn't matter the issue. States have certain rights that the Federal government can't touch, and sometimes the Supreme Court has to step in. As I said, doesn't matter the issue, what matters to the states is that if they (Federal government) can do this, and possibly tread on their constitutional rights, then they can step on others.

[-Arya-]

Well, as I said before different people, different opinions....respect. I find that when I respect others differences of beliefs and opinions, they respect me and my opinions and beliefs. I don't have to agree with a person in order to respect them.
Except when it comes down to having bad ideas and beliefs that will hinder the development of our world, something needs to be said.

[Mystirious]

Hey they screamed about slavery, why would it be such a shock?


Another one of the reasons that I thank god I don't live in America.

I mean I hate England. I hate the people in this country, I hate the government and I hate the culture. But at least we never fought a war to KEEP people as slaves

[Kelly]

Well, again....that was the "issue" the actual reason for the war was "states rights". Many of the states that were upset had no intention of having slavery, but they did not want the Federal Government having the power to tell them that they couldn't.

[Marx]

Ummmm....maybe....

It will be a legislative move, and IMO, that is where this movement needs to head. I've been a part of several organizations pushing legislation that I am passionate about. You have to put the leather to pavement, spend time in Washington, spend time in the district offices of the representatives, postage, etc....it can be done.

If churches are not forced to do these weddings, then they don't necessarily have a leg to stand on...

Possibly, states might scream, state's rights....that is where the Supreme Court might end up having to deal with this...but that would be years down the road.
No one wants to force churches to perform gay marriages. That's a lie the anti-gay crowd pushes to scare the general public.

[Mystirious]

Except when it comes down to having bad ideas and beliefs that will hinder the development of our world, something needs to be said.

Agreed, Bigotry, intolerance and repression hinders mankind and holds this world back and should be stamped out wherever it is encountered

[Kelly]

Well, the thing is....that would be a part of the legislation....I'm not talking about propaganda right now....I'm talking about what could possibly be in legislation.

[Kelly]

Except when it comes down to having bad ideas and beliefs that will hinder the development of our world, something needs to be said.


Again, it is your opinion as to what hinders and what doesn't.

Prove that not allowing gay marriage will hinder the development of our country. You can't anymore than someone could prove that it would hinder it.

Prove how the world would be different had Christianity not become the official religion of the Roman Empire...Prove that the world would be better if Buddhism did not exist, prove that it would be worse...


HUGE, huge, direction to go to prove a point.

But, bottom line is it is a difference of opinion.

[Mystirious]

Well, the thing is....that would be a part of the legislation....I'm not talking about propaganda right now....I'm talking about what could possibly be in legislation.

Honestly, I don't care whether churches are forced to perform gay weddings or not...their thoughts and feelings aren't exactly high on my priorities list...but I would sincerely doubt that the Government would force churches to perform gay weddings. Their far too cowardly

[Kelly]

Yet there are legalities all the time when Catholic Churches do not want to perform abortions, or give the morning after pill. Those things are always a part of the legal system....so its certainly not a possibility.

So, let me ask you this...

Do you expect these people to respect you for who you are, or do you not care either way?

[-Arya-]

Again, it is your opinion as to what hinders and what doesn't.

Prove that not allowing gay marriage will hinder the development of our country. You can't anymore than someone could prove that it would hinder it.

Prove how the world would be different had Christianity not become the official religion of the Roman Empire...Prove that the world would be better if Buddhism did not exist, prove that it would be worse...


HUGE, huge, direction to go to prove a point.

But, bottom line is it is a difference of opinion.
It cannot be proven, but it can be supported with data. My opinion of what hinders civilization is intolerance, ignorance and the repression of women.

Tell me that the world would at least grow slightly better if these concepts were improved upon.

[Mystirious]

Again, it is your opinion as to what hinders and what doesn't.

Prove that not allowing gay marriage will hinder the development of our country. You can't anymore than someone could prove that it would hinder it.

Prove how the world would be different had Christianity not become the official religion of the Roman Empire...Prove that the world would be better if Buddhism did not exist, prove that it would be worse...


HUGE, huge, direction to go to prove a point.

But, bottom line is it is a difference of opinion.

Bigotry and intolerance are illogical, hateful reactions. They, by their existence, hinder the mental evoloution of the human species.

There is no valid justification for bigotry. There is no valid arguement for being against those who are gay, any more than there is a valid arguement for hating someone who has brown eyes.

[Marx]

Well, the thing is....that would be a part of the legislation....I'm not talking about propaganda right now....I'm talking about what could possibly be in legislation.

No, actually it wouldn't. No one wants that.

[TheFuture]

..which is why equal rights should never be left in the hands of the voters.

Personally speaking I don't feel I have a right to tell people how to live their lives. That's why if there was a referendum on the legality of abortion tomorrow in Ireland, I would vote in favour of legalising it even though personally I am against it.

Well, honestly, being in the minority is something that is going to have to be worked with, because I'm not sure that is changing....

I guess, I having grown up in the church, and having friends that are pastors, as well as friends who are gay.....AND they all know each other well. My friends who are gay, know that these pastors do not believe their lifestyle is right....but they would never say that these people are hateful, hate them, or have shown anything towards them but love. They simply do not agree on a huge issue. Now, mind you they don't hang out together, usually my time is spent separately with these friends....but when a gay friend of mine lost his mother, he called this pastor to do her funeral. His mother didn't approve of his lifestyle either, but never closed her door on her son. He respected that, he respected her beliefs and her funeral was a Christian funeral, with a Southern Baptist preacher because that is what she grew up as....

Different people, different opinions, but respect is still there. I see that all the time.

I shouldn't have used the word hatefulness, it wasn't my intention to paint religious people in a negative manner. :yay:

[Mystirious]

Yet there are legalities all the time when Catholic Churches do not want to perform abortions, or give the morning after pill. Those things are always a part of the legal system....so its certainly not a possibility.

Catholic Churches perform ABORTIONS!?

I assume you mean Catholic doctors...and honestly, if their working in the field of medicine their thoughts and feelings do not matter. They are tools, who's only purpose is to do the will of the patient and of the state.

Put simply: If someone is against Abortion they shouldn't take a job where they have to perform abortions. There are plenty of jobs out there where you'd never have to abort a baby or give the morning after pill. if you're against either and you take one of the few jobs where you might have to then you're just being stupid

So, let me ask you this...

Do you expect these people to respect you for who you are, or do you not care either way?

I hope for respect.

But I'll settle for the law forcing them to be silent and punishing them if they say or do anything to harm me and those like me, physically or mentally/emotionally. I'm a realist. Humanity in general is a vile, hateful species. I realised that many years ago.

I don't expect tolerance or respect from everyone. I'm not interested in convincing the bigots or changing their minds. I just want the government to muzzle them and grant equal rights to me and mine, while keeping the vermin out there from doing us harm.

So ultimately no, I don't care about their "respect".

[Kelly]

No, actually it wouldn't. No one wants that.

Sorry, wrong word....not "would"....."could" is what I meant.

And um, since when did our legislators put wording into legislation that we want....lol

[Addendum]

Yet there are legalities all the time when Catholic Churches do not want to perform abortions, or give the morning after pill.

So the catholic church wants to become the religious version of walmart? Free oil change with every exorcism?

[Kelly]

Maybe...

[Mystirious]

Personally speaking I don't feel I have a right to tell people how to live their lives. That's why if there was a referundum on the legality of abortion tomorrow in Ireland, I would vote in favour of legalising it even though personally I am against it.



It' good to know that you would vote for freedom of choice for people, despite your own personal feelings. That's a very healthy and mature outlook

[Mystirious]

So the catholic church wants to become the religious version of walmart? Free oil change with every exorcism?

They need the money. The families of those altar boys won't bribe themselves

[wiegeabo]

Bigotry and intolerance are illogical, hateful reactions. They, by their existence, hinder the mental evoloution of the human species.

There is no valid justification for bigotry. There is no valid arguement for being against those who are gay, any more than there is a valid arguement for hating someone who has brown eyes.


There is a logical reason that bigoty and intolerance exist. They're an extension of humanity's fear of the unknown and different. And the reason we (and pretty much every species) have that fear is that it kept us alive for thousands upon thousands of years. That fear triggers the flight or fight response, and turns out to be a successful method of keeping a species alive. So, as we evolved, it became ingrained into our very nature.

Intolerance and bigotry are essentially the fight response being triggered to something these people can't understand. Like any other phobia, it's an irrational fear. And irrational fears, by their very natures, are incredibly difficult to overcome, yet still trigger the fear response, despite our intellects telling us otherwise. The only way to overcome them, in this case, is to take away the fear through exposure, education, and patience. Fifty years ago, all the bigots were convinced that if blacks got equal rights, society would collapse and the world would burn. Obviously, that didn't happen. And because later generations had more exposure to minorities, and grew up seeing there was nothing inherently different or scary about them, they never developed that irrational fear. They didn't develop the hate.

And we see the same thing happening with the views on homosexuals. The younger generations who have grown up with more exposure to homosexuals, and in a world where homosexuals have more rights than they used to, are far less intolerant. They don't have the same irrational fear (or at least to the same degree).

This is why yelling, screaming, cursing, and damning bigots will rarely ever work. Because all that does is feed into their fears that 'those people', and the ones that support them, are dangerous and scary, and need to be oppressed, and even eliminated.

[Mystirious]

There is a logical reason that bigoty and intolerance exist. They're an extension of humanity's fear of the unknown and different. And the reason we (and pretty much every species) have that fear is that it kept us alive for thousands upon thousands of years. That fear triggers the flight or fight response, and turns out to be a successful method of keeping a species alive. So, as we evolved, it became ingrained into our very nature.

I don't feel that fear of the unknown and different is a valid excuse, nor a logical response.

And it's one of the many reasons that I feel humanity is a flawed design.

[wiegeabo]

It makes perfect sense to me. The natural reaction to fear is either attack the source of the fear or run away. All these argument used against gay rights; it'll destroy marriage, it'll disrupt our military, they'll make our kids gay...that's fear. Plain and simple. They think bad things will happen because they don't understand how someone can be attracted to their own gender. It's completely irrational, but irrational fears are still real to those experiencing them. And because we they can't run away (minorities are everywhere), they lash out.

Why don't younger generations have the same levels of intolerance? Because they don't fear minorities. They've grown up around them, and around laws that treat them the same as anyone else. Minorities are just ordinary people, and since they're nothing to fear, there's nothing to hate.



And it can't be a design flaw if it helps keep the species alive. And before we were even fully walking upright, it helped keep us out of danger. It's a successful mutation, and thereby worthy of being passed down through the generations. Nowadays it may be somewhat outdated since we have a society with built in protections, but even today it serves it purpose. It just unfortunately has been turned on our own species, rather than the real dangers in the world it originally protected us from.

[Mystirious]

It makes perfect sense to me. The natural reaction to fear is either attack the source of the fear or run away. All these argument used against gay rights; it'll destroy marriage, it'll disrupt our military, they'll make our kids gay...that's fear. Plain and simple. They think bad things will happen because they don't understand how someone can be attracted to their own gender. It's completely irrational, but irrational fears are still real to those experiencing them. And because we they can't run away (minorities are everywhere), they lash out.

Except anyone with half a brain can see that homosexuality threatens NO ONE. Therefore the fear is groundless.

There are a lot of things to sensibly be afraid of. Crime. Global Warming. War. Terrorism.

Being afraid of those who are LGBT is akin to being afraid of the boogeyman. An irrational, illogical fear that no sane adult should harbour

And before we were even fully walking upright, it helped keep us out of danger. It's a successful mutation, and thereby worthy of being passed down through the generations. Nowadays it may be somewhat outdated since we have a society with built in protections, but even today it serves it purpose. It just unfortunately has been turned on our own species, rather than the real dangers in the world it originally protected us from.

It serves no purpose but to retard mankinds growth and cripple our species potential.

[wiegeabo]

Of course it's groundless. That's why it's called an irrational fear.


Fear retarding mankind's potential is something that can be argued. There's nothing wrong with fear. Fear is neither good nor bad. It's all about how we deal with the it. Fear keeps people from doing things that will get them hurt. Unfortunately it also makes people do stupid things.

[Mystirious]

Of course it's groundless. That's why it's called an irrational fear.


Which is exactly the point I am making. it is a worthless emotional response that mankind needs to cast aside.

Fear. Hate. Repression. These are the three demons mankind needs to slay. Worthless, useless emotional and mental functions that serve only to stand in the way of our ascension as a species

[wiegeabo]

Hate and repression, sure. They're negative expressions of fear. But fear itself is a healthy thing to have.

[Mystirious]

Hate and repression, sure. They're negative expressions of fear. But fear itself is a healthy thing to have.

I disagree. I don't really see any worth in fear

[wiegeabo]

Fear keeps one from making stupid decisions and doing dangerous things. Or, at least, doing dangerous things without taking precautions first. And it's especially important for children as they develop, otherwise they'd have problems learning the lessons of what's good and bad, safe and harmful. Fear is the reason that punishments work, because no one wants to be punished (or punished again), and they therefore fear the consequences of their actions, and hopefully take the time to consider them.

Sometimes fear needs to be overcome, sometimes it needs to be listen to. Sometimes it's useful, sometimes it triggers irrational actions. It's one of our strongest, most primal base emotions. Burried deep within our reptilian brain. It's one of the most ancient parts of the brains of successful species. There's a very good reason it's there. Unless you're at the top of the food chain, those species who tend to react, and even overreact, with fear live a lot longer than those that don't.

I don't know why it surprises people that humans can still be governed by our oldest, most deep seeded instincts. We're animals just like all the other animals on our planet. And compared to how long we've been around, we've only become intelligent relatively recently.

[JewishHobbit]

Sin or not, it is still within your legal rights to do it with any consenting of age female you see fit without getting married.

The Law does not abide by any one religion, no matter how large and far reachings definition of sin.


I wasn't talking at all about legality. I was just commenting on people's argument over whether homosexuality is a choice or something you're born with, when it isn't the point of the debate to begin with. It's a misdirection that muddles the conversation.

What should or shouldn't be legalized regarding homosexuals is another topic entirely.


NO. No it doesn't. What two consenting adults of ANY gender do with each other is NO ONE'S business. NO ONE has the right to tell them it's a "Sin" or that their going to "Hell" (Yeah right...like hell exists:whatever:)

No one has the right to tell you they believe homosexuality is a sin, but you have the right to mock my belief in Hell? A bit hypocritical isn't it? You'll say it is differant, but it's only differant because one effects you and the other doesn't. Shallow grounds.

The idea that homosexuality is only okay if the people repress themselves and "Choose" not to have sex with someone of the same gender is ludicrous. We can have sex with whoever the hell we want and that's not a "Sin" nor does anyone have the right to "Scrutinise" it.

And I note that all these religious men and women who feel within their rights to tell us how to live react with anger and self righteous indignation when anyone criticises their religion. Hypocrisy, much? I guess it's perfectly fine to run around telling everyone you don't like that their going to hell. But simply terrible for anyone to criticise someone for it.

But again, our religion is just as much a part of our lives as your homosexuality is yours. It's hypocricy for us to be against homosexuality and be offended when our beliefs are questioned.... but not hypocritic for you to be against our religion and be offended when your homosexuality is questioned? Again, your showing to be the worse hypocrite than I've shown to be.

NO ONE has the right to tell homosexuals that what they do isn't right or that it's a "Sin". So no, that post DOESN'T make sense. It's homophobic and I'm ashamed to see it on a thread that I would think would be free of such things.

Well, majority vote says it's perfectly fine and does make sense... whether they agree with what I've said or not... so you lose :)


And in addition, reading through the rest of the thread since my initial post, I think it's obvious to anyone paying attention that you're demanding respect from people who you show absolutely no respect to. You've made several religious mocking statements while stating it's wrong for religious people to speak against your lifestyle. I believe you've said something about how you think religious people should show mutual respect while later saying you don't care what they think and despise their 'bigotry' (when the bigotry issue in question isn't a relgious issue to begin with). The biggest bigots I know aren't even religious in the slightest.

The way you're quick and defensive over issues I've not even touched and the manor of which you carry yourself (yell kick and scream I think you said) does nothing for your cause. Honestly, you believe someone yelling gets you heard, but the yelling and rudness is when I stop paying attention or listening. I'm up to hearing what people have to say about any topic, and I'll consider it. I won't consider what you have to say because of the way you present it.

The fact that you can't separate bigots from those who believe homosexuality wrong astounds me. There is a very clean differance. I do believe homosexuality to be wrong, but I have absolutely nothing against homosexuals themselves. I've typically found the ones I've met to be good people. I've hugged them, made dirty jokes alongside them, and go out of my way to visit them when they leave the place where we typically met. I think of them no differantly than how I think of anyone else. They're no better or worse. And yet, I'm a bigot just because I believe the act is sin. Again... I BELIEVE. Note the fact that I'm not saying "It is Sin and you're going to Hell". If you want to add that part in again, feel free. But it's you speaking, not me.

Honestly, if law was passed and homosexuals were given full rights, I wouldn't bat an eye. I don't agree with the act of homosexuals, but I don't want to deny them anything. My only thing is that I don't want churches to be forced to marry them, as that's stepping on the toes of their personal beliefs. Come up with some other form of unity and I don't care. Let God worry about it. I have more important things to deal with.

And yet... I'm bigoted? It sounds to me like it's just the negative word that gets a lot of response, so you just label everyone who disagrees with you with that title and assume it's right, which isn't at all accurate, respectful, or even bright. You're a pretty closed-minded individual and some personal advice, if you want people to really listen to you and hear what you have to say... change your methods and become a bit more openminded. You'll find you can move mountains when you do more than just shout at them.

[Addendum]

No one is demanding that churches have to perform homosexuals marriages.

But I guess some people still need their boogeyman

[Kelly]

I don't necessarily believe that either, as far as my post, I was simply pointing out a possible Supreme Court issue (simply because this has been an issue with abortion and church sponsored hospitals), not that IT IS going to be a part of legislation. But, if it did end up in the wording, I would be against that, not the right to marriage itself.

[Mystirious]

What should or shouldn't be legalized regarding homosexuals is another topic entirely.

I can tell you what should be legalised. EVERYTHING.

Again. So long as those involved are over the age of consent, the law has no right to tell them what they can or can't do. People who are LGBT deserve the same rights as everyone else.


No one has the right to tell you they believe homosexuality is a sin, but you have the right to mock my belief in Hell? A bit hypocritical isn't it? You'll say it is differant, but it's only differant because one effects you and the other doesn't. Shallow grounds.

I didn't mock your belief in hell. I mocked the idea of hell.

If you believe in hell, fine. I bear no ill will towards you for that. I was just stating my own disbelief in the concept

But again, our religion is just as much a part of our lives as your homosexuality is yours.

There's no comparison between being religious and being LGBT, frankly


It's hypocricy for us to be against homosexuality and be offended when our beliefs are questioned.... but not hypocritic for you to be against our religion and be offended when your homosexuality is questioned? Again, your showing to be the worse hypocrite than I've shown to be.

I've never heard those against homoseuxality "Question" it. They basically say it's wrong and then verbally and physically attack those who are LGBt often while voting to keep basic human rights away from us.

Well, majority vote says it's perfectly fine and does make sense... whether they agree with what I've said or not... so you lose :)

As Prop 8 proved, the majority vote is often completely wrong.

And in addition, reading through the rest of the thread since my initial post, I think it's obvious to anyone paying attention that you're demanding respect from people who you show absolutely no respect to.

I don't care about their respect. I demand equal rights and I demand that the law prevent them from harming or verbally attacking myself and those like me. Fortunately in the UK there are already hate crime and hate speech laws (Which I personally hope will be adopted by the US Government as well, to finally get rid of people like the KKK and Fred Phelps)

The thoughts and feelings don't matter to me. I just want to be allowed to live my life free from small minded little bigots harassing me


You've made several religious mocking statements while stating it's wrong for religious people to speak against your lifestyle.


Because it is


I believe you've said something about how you think religious people should show mutual respect while later saying you don't care what they think and despise their 'bigotry' (when the bigotry issue in question isn't a relgious issue to begin with). The biggest bigots I know aren't even religious in the slightest.

Really? The biggest bigots I can think of have always hidden behind religion to justify their prejudice. Fred Phelps, the Ugandan and Saudi Arabian government, the prop 8 supporters.


The fact that you can't separate bigots from those who believe homosexuality wrong astounds me. There is a very clean differance. I do believe homosexuality to be wrong, but I have absolutely nothing against homosexuals themselves. I've typically found the ones I've met to be good people. I've hugged them, made dirty jokes alongside them, and go out of my way to visit them when they leave the place where we typically met. I think of them no differantly than how I think of anyone else. They're no better or worse. And yet, I'm a bigot just because I believe the act is sin. Again... I BELIEVE. Note the fact that I'm not saying "It is Sin and you're going to Hell". If you want to add that part in again, feel free. But it's you speaking, not me.


To be blunt, yes. If someone has anything against those who are LGBT then their a bigot in my eyes. No grey area.

My only thing is that I don't want churches to be forced to marry them, as that's stepping on the toes of their personal beliefs. Come up with some other form of unity and I don't care. Let God worry about it. I have more important things to deal with.



We don't have to "Come up with some other form of unity". We deserve to be married, in the exact same way as a man and a woman can get married. We're human beings and deserve the same human rights as others.

Simply put, if we can't be married then NO ONE deserves to be married.

[Majic Walrus]

I can tell you what should be legalised. EVERYTHING.

Again. So long as those involved are over the age of consent, the law has no right to tell them what they can or can't do. People who are LGBT deserve the same rights as everyone else.

Let's remember saying this for a little later, okay?


I didn't mock your belief in hell. I mocked the idea of hell.

If you believe in hell, fine. I bear no ill will towards you for that. I was just stating my own disbelief in the concept


Don't be like that. You know that if you mock an idea of hell or an idea of God you are basically mocking the people who subscribe to that belief. And very often stating your own disbelief is grounds enough to show disrespect of someone else's belief.

For instance if a Christian man says that he believes you are WRONG and you are going to HELL for the way you act... Isn't that just stating his belief? No it's also pretty damned hurtful to you isn't it?


There's no comparison between being religious and being LGBT, frankly

I've never heard those against homoseuxality "Question" it. They basically say it's wrong and then verbally and physically attack those who are LGBt often while voting to keep basic human rights away from us.

As Prop 8 proved, the majority vote is often completely wrong.

So? The majority can be wrong but we depend on the majority for our laws. The majority determines what we want.


I don't care about their respect. I demand equal rights and I demand that the law prevent them from harming or verbally attacking myself and those like me. Fortunately in the UK there are already hate crime and hate speech laws (Which I personally hope will be adopted by the US Government as well, to finally get rid of people like the KKK and Fred Phelps)

Remember that from above:I can tell you what should be legalised. EVERYTHING.


Yeah well if free speech is to be legal it has to be legal for Fred Phelps and the KKK to speak out hatefully just the same as anyone else.


The thoughts and feelings don't matter to me. I just want to be allowed to live my life free from small minded little bigots harassing me

Because it is

Says who? You? Guess what... They don't care about you. They have no obligation to make you feel better or to make your life free of bigotry. Especially when you don't seem to care to not harass them and when you don't feel that their beliefs are as important as yours.



Really? The biggest bigots I can think of have always hidden behind religion to justify their prejudice. Fred Phelps, the Ugandan and Saudi Arabian government, the prop 8 supporters.

To be blunt, yes. If someone has anything against those who are LGBT then their a bigot in my eyes. No grey area.

Well think about what other people are thinking and don't be so small minded. Religious people probably feel the same way about you.

Imagine this quote: "To be blunt, yes. If someone has anything against those who are religious then they're [sic] a bigot in my eyes. No gray area."

Interesting perspective isn't it?


We don't have to "Come up with some other form of unity". We deserve to be married, in the exact same way as a man and a woman can get married. We're human beings and deserve the same human rights as others.

Simply put, if we can't be married then NO ONE deserves to be married.

Marriage is not a human right.

[Marx]

I've always been taught that to gain respect, you have to give respect.

[Majic Walrus]

I've always been taught that to gain respect, you have to give respect.

:up: It's really the only way that you'll ever get it.

[Addendum]

You know that if you mock an idea of hell or an idea of God you are basically mocking the people who subscribe to that belief. And very often stating your own disbelief is grounds enough to show disrespect of someone else's belief.

People that do not subscribe to the beliefs of a religion or any religion are under no obligation to respect those religious beliefs.

[Majic Walrus]

People that do not subscribe to the beliefs of a religion or any religion are under no obligation to respect those religious beliefs.

I totally agree. Furthermore I would say that people are under no obligation to respect sexuality either.

Neither here nor there. I was pointing out the glaring double-standard.

[Tally Man]

I've always been taught that to gain respect, you have to give respect.

Depends on who you are dealing with. Sometimes people need a shock to the system to really take a look at why they hold a certain world view.

[Addendum]

Neither here nor there. I was pointing out the glaring double-standard.

Oh, I thought it was something important. My mistake.

[Marx]

Depends on who you are dealing with. Sometimes people need a shock to the system to really take a look at why they hold a certain world view.

I'm just saying that when you treat others with the same contempt they treat you...no one wins.

[Tally Man]

I'm just saying that when you treat others with the same contempt they treat you...no one wins.

At the same time using kids gloves on people with prejudices often solves nothing. Its one thing to respect the person, but its a whole different ball game when it comes to dealing with their views and how to react to them. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade.

[Wylie Times]

I'm just saying that when you treat others with the same contempt they treat you...no one wins.

Exactly.

[mrvlknight21]

How so? Not being sarcastic, genuinely curious what I said that struck you as such.

The only point I was trying to get across was that consenting adults have the right to do whatever and whoever they want, with regards to sex and sexuality.

And trying to prevent them from doing so, or persecuting or harassing them for doing so, is not only stupid but bigoted as well. I'd hope anyone with any sense would agree with me there

.


How is what you said presumtuous and generalizing?
I requoted your entire post that I was replying to and added it below. You can clearly see in the 3rd paragraph that you said that "ALL these religious men and women" and then follow it up with what you believe all religious people are saying/thinking/doing.



NO. No it doesn't. What two consenting adults of ANY gender do with each other is NO ONE'S business. NO ONE has the right to tell them it's a "Sin" or that their going to "Hell" (Yeah right...like hell exists:whatever:)

The idea that homosexuality is only okay if the people repress themselves and "Choose" not to have sex with someone of the same gender is ludicrous. We can have sex with whoever the hell we want and that's not a "Sin" nor does anyone have the right to "Scrutinise" it.

And I note that all these religious men and women who feel within their rights to tell us how to live react with anger and self righteous indignation when anyone criticises their religion. Hypocrisy, much? I guess it's perfectly fine to run around telling everyone you don't like that their going to hell. But simply terrible for anyone to criticise someone for it.

NO ONE has the right to tell homosexuals that what they do isn't right or that it's a "Sin". So no, that post DOESN'T make sense. It's homophobic and I'm ashamed to see it on a thread that I would think would be free of such things.

[mrvlknight21]

I can tell you what should be legalised. EVERYTHING.

Again. So long as those involved are over the age of consent, the law has no right to tell them what they can or can't do. People who are LGBT deserve the same rights as everyone else.
.

Where do you (would you) draw the line on what should be legalized? Drugs? Child abuse? Rape? Murder?

Im only asking because you are said in bold and caps that "EVERYTHING " should be legalized. You PROBABLY meant lifestyle choices, but even if that is the case, NAMBLA feels that they are well within their rights for men to have sexual relationships with young adolescent boys. And yes, you stated that you meant people over the age of consent, but Im just hoping that you clear that up.

[StorminNorman]

Crimes are those acts by which one man harms the person or property of another. Those should be illegal. The only purpose of the government is to protect citizens and their property.

Vices are not crimes. So yes, I think all drugs should be legalized. I think prostitution should be legalized.

[Mystirious]

Im only asking because you are said in bold and caps that "EVERYTHING " should be legalized. You PROBABLY meant lifestyle choices, but even if that is the case, NAMBLA feels that they are well within their rights for men to have sexual relationships with young adolescent boys.

If you read my post fully, you will see that I do specify that I am talking about sexuality and lifestyles with regards to those ABOVE the legal age of consent. And who ARE consenting.

I am not talking about rapists and pedophiles. I am saying that consenting adults deserve the right to do whatever they wish with each other sexually, without being harassed or persecuted by anyone


Don't be like that. You know that if you mock an idea of hell or an idea of God you are basically mocking the people who subscribe to that belief.

Um...not really.

I don't believe in Santa Claus either. Does that mean that I'm "Mocking" all the kids who do?

Faith is just that: Faith. There is not one shred of evidence that there is any such thing as God, Bhudda, Zeus, Satan, Shiva or any other divine or demonic figure you'd care to name. Not believing in them is not mocking or belittling those that DO believe in them

I already stated, twice in this thread and elsewhere on this board that I don't hate or look down on those who DO believe in a god (Or gods). I was merely stating my own disblief in the concept.

For instance if a Christian man says that he believes you are WRONG and you are going to HELL for the way you act... Isn't that just stating his belief? No it's also pretty damned hurtful to you isn't it?

Except I am not wishing any harm on those who are of a certain faith. "People" (Using the term as loosely as possible) like Fred Phelps who walk around with placards with garbage like "**** go to hell" on them? THAT is harming people, mentally and emotionally.

All I've said is that I personally am not religious and resent those who justify their prejudice using religion. Not that I hate or look down on everyone who has any kind of faith


So? The majority can be wrong but we depend on the majority for our laws. The majority determines what we want.

And if you ask me, that's why the planet is in such a godawful shape.

Yeah well if free speech is to be legal it has to be legal for Fred Phelps and the KKK to speak out hatefully just the same as anyone else.

When did I say I want all kinds of free speech to be legal?

I said I want all forms of sexuality between consenting adults legalised. And I do. Gay, straight, bi, trans...whatever sexuality or lifestyle you subscribe to, so long as everyones consenting and over the legal age of consent you're okay by me.

I don't want hate speech to be legal. And I am VERY proud to say that hate speech is illegal in my country. I wish the same was true of the US


Says who? You? Guess what... They don't care about you. They have no obligation to make you feel better or to make your life free of bigotry.

Not being bigoted toward someone because of their sexuality is basic human decency

The fact so many lack this trait is why I have a very low opinion of humanity

Marriage is not a human right.

Why do I get the feeling if all the straight people in the world were told they couldn't get married they would dispute that?

[Kelly]

Mystirious, let me add to what others have said....you say in the thread above, exactly what you are meaning.

Unfortunately, in your previous posts....the perception those posts are giving people is what you are seeing in their posts. People's perception is their truth, no matter what you had in your head at the time you were posting.

You posts come off as condescending, and with utter contempt for those that do not believe exactly the same way you do.

You may not mean to have that perception put forth....but it is...

We have seen you apologize a couple of times throughout your posting, yet you immediately go back to posting in the tone I stated above.

[Addendum]

I don't see anything condescending in what he wrote.

[mrvlknight21]

If you read my post fully, you will see that I do specify that I am talking about sexuality and lifestyles with regards to those ABOVE the legal age of consent. And who ARE consenting.

I am not talking about rapists and pedophiles. I am saying that consenting adults deserve the right to do whatever they wish with each other sexually, without being harassed or persecuted by anyone


Yes, I posted that too quickly. I edited it right after to reflect what you said about consenting adults. But, and this is just me talking here, I would be careful making some blanket statement that EVERYTHING should be legalized, even if I attached the "consenting adults" aspect.

[Kelly]

And that is fine...but you don't care what anybody says Addendum (only paying your bills and having a car that runs), so that is not surprising...

[Addendum]

Hey, some people have ****ed up perception

[Mystirious]

Mystirious, let me add to what others have said....you say in the thread above, exactly what you are meaning.

Unfortunately, in your previous posts....the perception those posts are giving people is what you are seeing in their posts. People's perception is their truth, no matter what you had in your head at the time you were posting.

You posts come off as condescending, and with utter contempt for those that do not believe exactly the same way you do.

You may not mean to have that perception put forth....but it is...

We have seen you apologize a couple of times throughout your posting, yet you immediately go back to posting in the tone I stated above.

I will freely admit to having contempt for those who believe there is anything wrong with being LGBT. Such a viewpoint is bigotry to me, plain and simple...and I see no reason why I should not view bigotry with contempt.

I am not saying everyone has to think the exact same way as me. Many here disagree with me. That's fine. :yay:

The only ones I bear ill will towards are those who hate or look down upon those who are LGBT or who seek to do us harm, either through physical or verbal attacks or legislation like Prop 8 (A vile, hateful law created and backed by bigots)

Those are the only ones I have a problem with.

I don't see anything condescending in what he wrote.

She. And thank you. I have not set out to condescend to anyone and I'm glad that not everyone feels I have.



I'm just saying that when you treat others with the same contempt they treat you...no one wins.

No one wins if you treat them with respect either

Crimes are those acts by which one man harms the person or property of another. Those should be illegal. The only purpose of the government is to protect citizens and their property.

Vices are not crimes. So yes, I think all drugs should be legalized. I think prostitution should be legalized.


I completely agree with you here.

Though I would add that, with regards to prostitution, obviously it would still need to be policed to crack down on those who are forced into that life. Some are in it by choice, but not all

Any man or woman should be free to choose that proffession without being harassed by the law. But the those who force people into it, through threats, intimidation, blackmail or abuse should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And those forced into prostitution at their hands should receive any and all help needed

And with drugs, pushers who are guilty of other illegal acts should still be locked up. Really, legalising prostitution and drugs would be a sensible move as bringing both industries under government scrutiny would help freeze out the criminal element.

There is nothing inherently evil about either "Vice". It's with the outside factors that the problem lies

[Addendum]

She. And thank you. I have not set out to condescend to anyone and I'm glad that not everyone feels I have.
You're welcome

[Kelly]

And that is clear Mystirious, but be ready to have others question your generalizations if you continue to post in the same tone. They will come...

As far as I'm concerned, passion is passion....sometimes it gets out of hand. When it does, mods have to take care of it. So far the passion is just that passion, whether I agree with the you or not, is irrelevant to me. I just want ALL opinions to be given freely with being called names hidden behind the cloak of generalization.

[Mystirious]

Yes, I posted that too quickly. I edited it right after to reflect what you said about consenting adults. But, and this is just me talking here, I would be careful making some blanket statement that EVERYTHING should be legalized, even if I attached the "consenting adults" aspect.

I personally don't see why. Whatever sexuality, kinks or fetishes, whatever lifestyle a consenting adult wishes to pursue...I say more power to them.

And I don't feel that anyone has the right to judge, condemn or assault anyone based on the above.

We're all born onto this wretched little planet in pain and we have an all to brief span of time upon it. I say if it feels good, do it. With complete lack of moderation.

We're all destined for nothing. Might as well have fun while we're here. Life is far too short for such ludicrous concepts as bigotry and repression

[Kelly]

With that we go back to what started our conversation Mystirious, I could care less what people do behind their closed doors. Whatever sexual fetishes they have is their own personal fetishes. BUT, when those fetishes are acted out in public, and in most cases for the soul purpose of shock, and it is done in public scenarios that have been promoted as a family endeavor for people of ALL AGES, not just consenting adults. THEN, I have a problem...

[mrvlknight21]

No one wins if you treat them with respect either



Was this a typo, or did you actually mean it?

[JewishHobbit]

I can tell you what should be legalised. EVERYTHING.

So no law against anything? Wow, that's quite a rediculous mentality. No age limits on who can or can't have sex, or consume alcohol no matter how young. No child laws. No animal cruelty laws. No laws against physical, mental, or sexual abuse. No limits on speed limits or other safety standards because nothing's illegal to be protected. Nothing penalized. Everything legal.

You can take this one thing I'm about to say as being an attack then, because it is. You sir, are the dumbest individual I've had the honor of talking to about such things. Very immature, irrational, selfish and self-centered. You obviously don't care about right and wrong, just wantever you want. You're opinion should be the law. Yes, that is a personal insult. JH certified.

Now, if you're not as dimwitted as you came accross here, I'm assuming you meant Everything with some limitations. You might want to be more clear next time.


I didn't mock your belief in hell. I mocked the idea of hell.

If you believe in hell, fine. I bear no ill will towards you for that. I was just stating my own disbelief in the concept

Don't be niave. I bare no ill will toward homosexuality, and yet it's wrong that I state I'm against homosexuality in concept. So why is this wrong, but your mocking my beliefs of Hell isn't? It's just something to say?

Again, the hypocriticalness comes pouring out of you.


There's no comparison between being religious and being LGBT, frankly.

Only because you don't want to believe there is. A person's religion is just as much a factor of a person's life as their sexual preference. To deny that is niave.

I've never heard those against homoseuxality "Question" it. They basically say it's wrong and then verbally and physically attack those who are LGBt often while voting to keep basic human rights away from us.

Then you haven't talked to enough people, or you fall into the obvious trap of just listening or paying attention to those who are loudest and ignore those who aren't reacting verbally and physically. If you really believe that that's the only type of people there are (in those against homosexuality) then you're very very wrong, and it makes me question how seriously you actually take this. It makes me believe that you might just be an angry man or woman (I have no idea who you are) spouting out at the mouth about injustice without actually doing anything to fix it. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get.

As Prop 8 proved, the majority vote is often completely wrong.

I have no idea what Prop 8 is.

I don't care about their respect. I demand equal rights and I demand that the law prevent them from harming or verbally attacking myself and those like me. Fortunately in the UK there are already hate crime and hate speech laws (Which I personally hope will be adopted by the US Government as well, to finally get rid of people like the KKK and Fred Phelps)

You demand equal rights, but they shouldn't have equal rights? I personally don't care for the KKK or Fred Phelps and wouldn't care if someone blew them away, but I don't deny the fact that rights are rights. To demand them, but only conditionally as it benefits you is again, niave.

The thoughts and feelings don't matter to me. I just want to be allowed to live my life free from small minded little bigots harassing me.

Such as how you're being a small minded bigot toward the religious and have been harassing my thoughts in this forum? Remember, I wasn't talking to you or even making a statement against you. You started and continue this and act extremely close minded (as stated by several here) about the topic at hand. It's a two way street. Everyone deserves respect, but you sure aren't going to get it that way.

Really? The biggest bigots I can think of have always hidden behind religion to justify their prejudice. Fred Phelps, the Ugandan and Saudi Arabian government, the prop 8 supporters.

Funny how you still just reference the loud ones... typically the ones who make the rest of us shake our heads. Those aren't the religious leaders that the majoirty of us look to or listen to. I actually don't know a single religious person (and I know a lot) who by any means support or agree with Fred Phelps (I say him because he's the one I'm most familiar with). Heck, his teachings contrast the bible and the beliefs he claims. He has nothing to do with the religious he hides behind. But surprise surprise, you aren't quoting or talking about the churches who aren't acting like idiots.

But again... I'm thinking of every person I know who are against homosexuality. The ones who are disrespectful about it, or even flat out bigots... aren't religious at all, or are formerly religious and no longer practicing. Heh, come to think about it they're mostly rednecks :)


To be blunt, yes. If someone has anything against those who are LGBT then their a bigot in my eyes. No grey area.

Again, closeminded and not a statement I can take seriously. But if that's how you believe so be it.

We don't have to "Come up with some other form of unity". We deserve to be married, in the exact same way as a man and a woman can get married. We're human beings and deserve the same human rights as others.

Simply put, if we can't be married then NO ONE deserves to be married.

Marraige within a church is a religious ceremony. A church is a place where people can practice and learn about their beliefs. It is by no means right for anyone outside that church to force them to do something that's against their beliefs.

If homosexuals can get married in a court house or something, so be it, but I just don't want anything forcing the legalization of gay marraige within a church. As long as that doesn't happen then I don't care.

And as someone else said earlier... marraige isn't a human right.

[Mystirious]

And that is clear Mystirious, but be ready to have others question your generalizations if you continue to post in the same tone. They will come...

As far as I'm concerned, passion is passion....sometimes it gets out of hand. When it does, mods have to take care of it. So far the passion is just that passion, whether I agree with the you or not, is irrelevant to me. I just want ALL opinions to be given freely with being called names hidden behind the cloak of generalization.

I'll say again, for the sake of clarity

If you're religious, great. If you're an atheist, cool. Whereever you're from, whoever you vote for, I really don't care. It won't make me hate or like you any more. It doesn't affect my perception of a person one iota.

But, if someone is prejudiced against someone, because of their skin colour, their faith, their lifestyle, their sexuality...any number of reasons...then yes, I will freely admit: all I can feel is hatred for them

That may not be the diplomatic or tactful way to feel but I can't change that. Bigotry is a red flag to a bull for me. Baseless hatred, hating someone simply for existing...that makes me see red

Hate someone who does you harm. Hate someone who steals from you. Hate someone who won't stop jawing on their cell phone on the train. Ha

But don't hate someone who simply shares the same planet as you

We are all human beings. We are all of us equal (Equally worthless, in my opinion, but I am a nihilist. I'm sure others have a shinier, happier outlook than myself)

I don't want a world where we all love each other. I just want a world where we all let each other live our own lives. Free from harm.

Of course there's more chance of Jordan getting breast reduction surgery than that happening.

[mrvlknight21]

Mystirious, I can appreciate your passion, but it does seem that you are angrily throwing around your opinion as truth at times and even saying if someone disagrees with you then they are ______ (fill in blank with an insult). Just my opinion based on reading posts over the last few pages.

[JewishHobbit]

Faith is just that: Faith. There is not one shred of evidence that there is any such thing as God, Bhudda, Zeus, Satan, Shiva or any other divine or demonic figure you'd care to name. Not believing in them is not mocking or belittling those that DO believe in them

I can get into a great religious debate on this (as far as God goes) but this isn't the place for it. The evidense isn't that hard to find. You just have to look.

[Majic Walrus]

Crimes are those acts by which one man harms the person or property of another. Those should be illegal. The only purpose of the government is to protect citizens and their property.

Vices are not crimes. So yes, I think all drugs should be legalized. I think prostitution should be legalized.


This. To the most degree it least. I don't think all drugs should be "legalized" but that drugs like marijuana should be legal and controlled by the government the same way alcohol and tobacco are.

That isn't to say that I don't obey and respect all laws, I'm sworn to do so and even that I enforce all laws.


Um...not really.

I don't believe in Santa Claus either. Does that mean that I'm "Mocking" all the kids who do?

Faith is just that: Faith. There is not one shred of evidence that there is any such thing as God, Bhudda, Zeus, Satan, Shiva or any other divine or demonic figure you'd care to name. Not believing in them is not mocking or belittling those that DO believe in them

"There is not one shred of evidence that there is such a thing as God et al" This statement indicates that people who believe in God are foolish.


I already stated, twice in this thread and elsewhere on this board that I don't hate or look down on those who DO believe in a god (Or gods). I was merely stating my own disblief in the concept.

I don't think anyone has stated that they hate homosexuality, just that they believe it's wrong. So if you believe that there is no God you are saying to those who do believe in God that you feel that they are wrong (otherwise you'd believe too). So I don't see a difference.


Except I am not wishing any harm on those who are of a certain faith. "People" (Using the term as loosely as possible) like Fred Phelps who walk around with placards with garbage like "**** go to hell" on them? THAT is harming people, mentally and emotionally.

All I've said is that I personally am not religious and resent those who justify their prejudice using religion. Not that I hate or look down on everyone who has any kind of faith


Your resentment of people's personal moral philosophies is no different than their resentment of your personal moral philosophies.


And if you ask me, that's why the planet is in such a godawful shape.

When did I say I want all kinds of free speech to be legal?

I said I want all forms of sexuality between consenting adults legalised. And I do. Gay, straight, bi, trans...whatever sexuality or lifestyle you subscribe to, so long as everyones consenting and over the legal age of consent you're okay by me.

I don't want hate speech to be legal. And I am VERY proud to say that hate speech is illegal in my country. I wish the same was true of the US


The fact that you don't like democracy and freedom of speech is to me utterly disappointing. For someone who seems so adamant about your rights you care little for the rights of those around you and for someone who wants equal rights you certainly aren't happy to extend that to people you don't like.

Equality is a two way street.


Not being bigoted toward someone because of their sexuality is basic human decency

The fact so many lack this trait is why I have a very low opinion of humanity

The fact that people can overcome bigotry despite the fact that bigotry is completely natural occurrence causes me to have a very high opinion of humanity.


Why do I get the feeling if all the straight people in the world were told they couldn't get married they would dispute that?

That might be true, but it won't change the fact that it's not a human rights issue. If I was told I couldn't drive anymore I would be pretty pissed but driving is not a right much less a basic human right.

[Mystirious]

Mystirious, I can appreciate your passion, but it does seem that you are angrily throwing around your opinion as truth at times and even saying if someone disagrees with you then they are ______ (fill in blank with an insult). Just my opinion based on reading posts over the last few pages.

Not my intent. I am simply not tolerant of those who are intolerant of me and those like me.

Perhaps that's wrong. But I have no intention to change

So no law against anything? Wow, that's quite a rediculous mentality. No age limits on who can or can't have sex, or consume alcohol no matter how young. No child laws. No animal cruelty laws. No laws against physical, mental, or sexual abuse. No limits on speed limits or other safety standards because nothing's illegal to be protected. Nothing penalized. Everything legal.

Now, if you're not as dimwitted as you came accross here, I'm assuming you meant Everything with some limitations. You might want to be more clear next time.

If you read through the thread, you will see that I DID clarify this statement.

Not seeking to insult you here. But it is wise to not simply read one post in a thread and base your response upon it. if you had read my other posts, you would see I had already addressed the very issues you bring up

I know this comment may seem sarcastic or insulting...I say now with all honesty that this is not my intention. I am earnestly addressing your point and advising you to read my other posts, to see that I have already clarified the matter



Don't be niave. I bare no ill will toward homosexuality, and yet it's wrong that I state I'm against homosexuality in concept. So why is this wrong, but your mocking my beliefs of Hell isn't? It's just something to say?

Again, the hypocriticalness comes pouring out of you.




It is one thing to say that you do not believe in a metaphysical realm beyond death of which there is no concrete proof of it's existence.

It is quite another to say that millions of people are commiting a "Sin" simply for being who they are. In my opinion, anyway


Only because you don't want to believe there is. A person's religion is just as much a factor of a person's life as their sexual preference. To deny that is niave.

People can, and do, choose their religion. If you are LGBT it is who you are. If you're religious it is who you choose to be

So there is not any real comparison here. if we were discussing lifestyle choices then I would grant you that you had a valid arguement here. But we are not

I did not choose to be LGBT any more than I chose my eye colour. Those who hold religious beliefs however CHOOSE to believe or disbelieve as they do

I have no idea what Prop 8 is.

Really?

That genuinely surprises me. It is certainly very (in)famous and rightly so.

You demand equal rights, but they shouldn't have equal rights? I personally don't care for the KKK or Fred Phelps and wouldn't care if someone blew them away, but I don't deny the fact that rights are rights. To demand them, but only conditionally as it benefits you is again, niave.

On this at least we agree

Actually I would care. I would be overjoyed.

Such as how you're being a small minded bigot toward the religious and have been harassing my thoughts in this forum?

No I am not.

This may shock you, but some of my closest friends are religious. I don't hate someone because of their religion

I DO however hate those who hate people who are LGBT or view it as sinful or "Wrong"

But again... I'm thinking of every person I know who are against homosexuality. The ones who are disrespectful about it, or even flat out bigots... aren't religious at all, or are formerly religious and no longer practicing. Heh, come to think about it they're mostly rednecks :)

What a shocker

Again, closeminded and not a statement I can take seriously. But if that's how you believe so be it.

It is.

You may call it close minded. But I cannot find it in myself to respect someone who views the way I and others like me live our lives as "Wrong"

Marraige within a church is a religious ceremony. A church is a place where people can practice and learn about their beliefs. It is by no means right for anyone outside that church to force them to do something that's against their beliefs.

Many who are religious have nothing against those who are LGBT. Thankfully



"There is not one shred of evidence that there is such a thing as God et al" This statement indicates that people who believe in God are foolish.

No. It indicates that it is their faith.

Faith, by it's very nature, is belief without proof

I don't think anyone has stated that they hate homosexuality, just that they believe it's wrong. So if you believe that there is no God you are saying to those who do believe in God that you feel that they are wrong (otherwise you'd believe too). So I don't see a difference.

No. I am not saying that there ISN'T a God. I am saying I don't think there is.

While those who say that homosexuality is a sin say it as if somehow they have the right to declare anything as such.

Your resentment of people's personal moral philosophies is no different than their resentment of your personal moral philosophies.


I "Resent" those who hate people for NO valid reason. And there is no valid reason to hate those who are LGBT.

The fact that you don't like democracy

I am against all forms of government. I feel they are all incompetent

and freedom of speech is to me utterly disappointing.

Freedom of speech is fine

Hate speech harms innocent people. That's where my tolerance ends

The fact that people can overcome bigotry despite the fact that bigotry is completely natural occurrence causes me to have a very high opinion of humanity.

Bigotry is not natural. It is an unnatural and worthless emotion that mankind should rid itself of

The fact we have not is proof to me that we are flawed at a basic level

[Majic Walrus]

No. It indicates that it is their faith.

Faith, by it's very nature, is belief without proof

No. I am not saying that there ISN'T a God. I am saying I don't think there is.

While those who say that homosexuality is a sin say it as if somehow they have the right to declare anything as such.

You have the right to believe that there isn't a God and they have the right to have their own morality too.


I "Resent" those who hate people for NO valid reason. And there is no valid reason to hate those who are LGBT.

Their reason is totally valid as far as they are concerned. They have been instructed by GOD to believe this way.


I am against all forms of government. I feel they are all incompetent

You're against government but you demand to be treated fairly by having the right to enter into a marriage. A union recognized by the government?



Freedom of speech is fine

Hate speech harms innocent people. That's where my tolerance ends

Freedom of speech includes hate speech.


Bigotry is not natural. It is an unnatural and worthless emotion that mankind should rid itself of

It is natural. If it exists in nature it is natural. Just like lions eat gazelles. It's completely natural for "wrong" things to exist and thrive.


The fact we have not is proof to me that we are flawed at a basic level

Please do not say that "We" have not overcome bigotry just because you haven't. Plenty of people black, white, gay, straight, yellow, brown, red, transgendered, and bisexual have overcome bigotry.

[StorminNorman]

I completely agree with you here.

Though I would add that, with regards to prostitution, obviously it would still need to be policed to crack down on those who are forced into that life. Some are in it by choice, but not all.

Any man or woman should be free to choose that proffession without being harassed by the law. But the those who force people into it, through threats, intimidation, blackmail or abuse should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And those forced into prostitution at their hands should receive any and all help needed

And with drugs, pushers who are guilty of other illegal acts should still be locked up. Really, legalising prostitution and drugs would be a sensible move as bringing both industries under government scrutiny would help freeze out the criminal element.

There is nothing inherently evil about either "Vice". It's with the outside factors that the problem lies


Obviously anyone being forced to do anything against there will would be a crime.


So no law against anything? Wow, that's quite a rediculous mentality. No age limits on who can or can't have sex, or consume alcohol no matter how young. No child laws. No animal cruelty laws. No laws against physical, mental, or sexual abuse. No limits on speed limits or other safety standards because nothing's illegal to be protected. Nothing penalized. Everything legal.

I actually want to get rid of speed limits. Since most people value their lives more than a handful of seconds - you aren't going to see extraordinary change in driving speed. I mean people regularly speed with or without the law there anyway.

Now I think there should be increased penalties if your speeding creates a wreck - but going 90 down the interstate at 4 in the morning with no one on the road shouldn't be illegal.

This. To the most degree it least. I don't think all drugs should be "legalized" but that drugs like marijuana should be legal and controlled by the government the same way alcohol and tobacco are.

What's the benefit of making people that want cocaine go to a drug dealer? That leads to cocaine laced with anything and money flowing into the hands of criminals. Legalize cocaine and those problems go away.

Making drugs illegal doesn't stop drug use at all, it simply makes drug use more dangerous.

The fact that you don't like democracy and freedom of speech is to me utterly disappointing. For someone who seems so adamant about your rights you care little for the rights of those around you and for someone who wants equal rights you certainly aren't happy to extend that to people you don't like.

Why is Democracy a good thing? It's tyranny of the minority by the majority. It turns "right" and "wrong" into a matter of numbers - not facts.

[Addendum]

What's the benefit of making people that want cocaine go to a drug dealer? That leads to cocaine laced with anything and money flowing into the hands of criminals. Legalize cocaine and those problems go away.

Making drugs illegal doesn't stop drug use at all, it simply makes drug use more dangerous.
So where's the problem?

[Marx]

I am not saying everyone has to think the exact same way as me. Many here disagree with me. That's fine. :yay:

That's not what your posts suggest.


No one wins if you treat them with respect either.

I sincerely hope this is a joke.


If homosexuals can get married in a court house or something, so be it, but I just don't want anything forcing the legalization of gay marraige within a church. As long as that doesn't happen then I don't care.

As was said earlier, churches will not be forced to perfrom gay marriages That is a lie being pushed by the anti-gay crowd to scare the general public.

[Mystirious]

Why is Democracy a good thing? It's tyranny of the minority by the majority. It turns "right" and "wrong" into a matter of numbers - not facts.

And once again, I find myself in complete agreement with you. Well put

You have the right to believe that there isn't a God and they have the right to have their own morality too.

There is nothing moral about hating those who are LGBT

Their reason is totally valid as far as they are concerned. They have been instructed by GOD to believe this way.

Did God personally tell each and every one of them to do so?

Unless they have all spoken with him face to face and been told by him that homosexuality is wrong in his eyes, I do not consider that a valid reason



You're against government but you demand to be treated fairly by having the right to enter into a marriage. A union recognized by the government?


I have no love for the government

But I recognise their the only game in town. So I want to make the best of a bad situation



Freedom of speech includes hate speech.


Actually, under UK laws, not it does not. And that is why I'm glad I live in the UK



It is natural. If it exists in nature it is natural. Just like lions eat gazelles. It's completely natural for "wrong" things to exist and thrive.


Once again, not any kind of accurate comparison

Please do not say that "We" have not overcome bigotry just because you haven't. Plenty of people black, white, gay, straight, yellow, brown, red, transgendered, and bisexual have overcome bigotry.

I am not bigoted

I hate people who are bigoted toward those who are LGBT. That is not bigotry. That is a perfectly reasonable response to people who have contempt for me and those like me and wish us harm

Was this a typo, or did you actually mean it?

Let's say that I treat those who are bigoted against me and mine with "Respect". I don't criticise their views, I let them go on insulting people who have done nothing but be born a certain way.

Who wins there?

I don't see any value in turning the other cheek

With that we go back to what started our conversation Mystirious, I could care less what people do behind their closed doors. Whatever sexual fetishes they have is their own personal fetishes. BUT, when those fetishes are acted out in public, and in most cases for the soul purpose of shock, and it is done in public scenarios that have been promoted as a family endeavor for people of ALL AGES, not just consenting adults. THEN, I have a problem...

I guess I'm just not as bothered by stuff like that as you are. We'll have to put that down to difference of opinion

[Mystirious]

That's not what your posts suggest.


All I've said in my posts is that I loathe those who are bigoted towards people who are LGBT.

Perhaps I've been overly aggressive in saying so but that's really all I've been trying to get across

As was said earlier, churches will not be forced to perfrom gay marriages That is a lie being pushed by the anti-gay crowd to scare the general public.

The anti-gay crowd have plenty of experience when it comes to lying to the world

[Majic Walrus]

What's the benefit of making people that want cocaine go to a drug dealer? That leads to cocaine laced with anything and money flowing into the hands of criminals. Legalize cocaine and those problems go away.

Making drugs illegal doesn't stop drug use at all, it simply makes drug use more dangerous.

I agree, but making cocaine legal means corporations take over the drug trade and foreign druglords gain huge financial and political backings in the US. I don't care for that idea.


Why is Democracy a good thing? It's tyranny of the minority by the majority. It turns "right" and "wrong" into a matter of numbers - not facts.

Democracy is merely the lesser of several evils. Although I will say that democracy, government for that matter has no right or place in determining morality or "right" or "wrong" only illegal and legal based on what we've talked about previously.

[Mystirious]

Democracy is merely the lesser of several evils. Although I will say that democracy, government for that matter has no right or place in determining morality or "right" or "wrong" only illegal and legal based on what we've talked about previously.

Given that so far it's only competion is monarchy and fascism, it's not exactly hard to be the lesser of two evils by comparison

[Majic Walrus]

There is nothing moral about hating those who are LGBT

Says YOUR morality. Morality is not an absolute. In some places it's moral to cut off your wives hands if she cheats. While you or I might find that abhorrent doesn't mean that our morality supersedes someone else's on the basis that "we" feel it so it must be right.


Did God personally tell each and every one of them to do so?

Unless they have all spoken with him face to face and been told by him that homosexuality is wrong in his eyes, I do not consider that a valid reason

Yes as far as they are concerned.

You've already stated that religions are based on faith and that you don't have that faith so who are YOU to say that they haven't been told by God that homosexuality is wrong?


I have no love for the government

But I recognise their the only game in town. So I want to make the best of a bad situation

That sounds a lot like a cop out, no offense. You don't care about the government unless it affects you. In fact most of your ideas seem to be exceptionally self-centered for someone who is talking about being fair to everyone.


Actually, under UK laws, not it does not. And that is why I'm glad I live in the UK

I'm glad you live in the UK too. :oldrazz:

But frankly any "Freedom" of speech that limits speech, well it isn't freedom of speech to me no matter what they call it.


Once again, not any kind of accurate comparison


How is bigotry unnatural? Does it occur... outside of nature?


I am not bigoted

I hate people who are bigoted toward those who are LGBT. That is not bigotry. That is a perfectly reasonable response to people who have contempt for me and those like me and wish us harm



I don't care about your personal feelings to be honest and I think that we agree on more than you know. However I also think that you are bigoted towards people who believe that homosexuality is morally wrong.

I think you're passing moral judgments on people and in the same swoop damning people for passing moral judgments on you. I think that you're entitled to feel however you want to feel or think whatever you want to, I really don't care. I also think from my personal opinion that you're not nearly as open-minded as you claim to be.

[Majic Walrus]

Given that so far it's only competion is monarchy and fascism, it's not exactly hard to be the lesser of two evils by comparison

What about totalitarianism, republicanism, aristocracy, theocracy, plutocracy, oligarchy, etc...?

[Mystirious]

What about totalitarianism, republicanism, aristocracy, theocracy, plutocracy, oligarchy, etc...?

All also utterly terrible and unfit to rule.

Says YOUR morality. Morality is not an absolute. In some places it's moral to cut off your wives hands if she cheats. While you or I might find that abhorrent doesn't mean that our morality supersedes someone else's on the basis that "we" feel it so it must be right.

I long for the day when such places are forced to change



Yes as far as they are concerned.

You've already stated that religions are based on faith and that you don't have that faith so who are YOU to say that they haven't been told by God that homosexuality is wrong?



Because unless they have proof that God is real and has personally told each and every one of them that homosexuality is wrong, then in my opinion their arguement that God does not agree with those who are LGBT is not valid

That sounds a lot like a cop out, no offense. You don't care about the government unless it affects you.

Exactly. I see the government as a kind of dumb animal. I want it to do tricks for me. And remain silent at all other times


How is bigotry unnatural? Does it occur... outside of nature?

It is useless and retards mankinds potential. Therefore it should be excised from the human psyche

I don't care about your personal feelings to be honest and I think that we agree on more than you know. However I also think that you are bigoted towards people who believe that homosexuality is morally wrong.

It's not bigotry to hate those who hate you.

I think you're passing moral judgments on people and in the same swoop damning people for passing moral judgments on you.

The difference being I do not harm anyone. Bigots DO.

I think that you're entitled to feel however you want to feel or think whatever you want to, I really don't care. I also think from my personal opinion that you're not nearly as open-minded as you claim to be.

I'm not open minded toward those who have a negative view of people who are LGBT, no

[StorminNorman]

Democracy is merely the lesser of several evils. Although I will say that democracy, government for that matter has no right or place in determining morality or "right" or "wrong" only illegal and legal based on what we've talked about previously.

I disagree. I think the government does have a place in determining "right" and "wrong". Tyranny is wrong. Freedom is right. Socialism is wrong. Capitalism is right. It is not the government job to pretend that Tyranny is acceptable or that Freedom is unjust.

[Tally Man]

Marraige within a church is a religious ceremony. A church is a place where people can practice and learn about their beliefs. It is by no means right for anyone outside that church to force them to do something that's against their beliefs.

If homosexuals can get married in a court house or something, so be it, but I just don't want anything forcing the legalization of gay marraige within a church. As long as that doesn't happen then I don't care.

This is a sensible position but I would have to ask you what you think should happen when marriage rights and benefits come into conflict with people outside the realm of the church. What do you think should happen when a business owner refuses to cover a worker's spouse under their health plan because they are a gay couple and doing so against their religion?

And as someone else said earlier... marraige isn't a human right.

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.- Loving v. Virginia

The courts would disagree with you. Marriage is considered a fundamental right and now its really down to whether or not that right will be be given to same sex couples.

[Addendum]

I disagree. I think the government does have a place in determining "right" and "wrong".
I view that to be up to the individual.

[wiegeabo]

I hate it when people attack form of government as if that's the problem. It's not. No form of government is inherently bad or good. It's the people in the government that make it that way. Each form of government has their advantages and disadvantages.

And having no government isn't an option either because government is an automatic consequence of society. If you have a group of more than 1 person, a government exists.

Governments spring up whenever there's a dispute between 2 or more people/businesses/cities/whatever that they can't resolve without violence. And instead of fighting each other, they want to resolve it peacefully, and put trust and promise to follow the ruling into a third party. And we give that third party some kind of power to enforce it's ruling in case one of those in dispute decide not to follow it. Whether that third party be a head of a family, a village elder, an elected or appointed official, or a court, it's all government.

[JewishHobbit]

Communism? That's the only other ism I could think of :)


Did God personally tell each and every one of them to do so?

Unless they have all spoken with him face to face and been told by him that homosexuality is wrong in his eyes, I do not consider that a valid reason

Yes as far as they are concerned.

You've already stated that religions are based on faith and that you don't have that faith so who are YOU to say that they haven't been told by God that homosexuality is wrong?

As for these, I won't go into depth because this isn't a religious debate thread and I don't want to swing it too far from the actual topic. But I'll say this, speaking for Christianity at least....

We do feel that we've been told by God that homosexuality is a sin. Yes, it's unpleasant, but so are a lot of other things that we personally enjoy that are labled as sins. Some of us have a way of feeling when God is directing us. It's not an autable voice or a man in a robe, but in time as you pray and focus on God, you can figure it out. As someone who doesn't believe I don't expect you to understand that, but it happens to thousands of people or more every single day.

A less supernatural method of feeling we've been told this by God is the Bible itself. I know there's question among athiests and agnostics regarding the Bible's authenticity, but if you ignore the Bible itself and look around it, you can find enough proofs to put up an amazing case for the Bible being what we believe it to be. Again, there's a lot of detail, and I'm rusty on it, but it includes such things as knowing the time period it was written, comparing why the books in it work while others that contradict it wasn't, the oldest letters of the Bible that we have compared to now, prophecies fulfilled, Bible quotations in letters written by non religious people less than 100 years after the writing of the New Testiment, The non-contridictary nature of the book, etc.

A lot of details verify the Bible as being a legit work inspired by God, and if it is inspired by God, then what it says is also inspired by God, including what is and isn't sin and how to deal with it. Unfortunately too many people focus on the "Sin" part and not the proper way of how to deal with it.

If you ever want to look into any of that, or anyone else for that matter, look into a book called The Case for Christ. It goes into a lot of interesting detail on the matter. My Sunday School is doing a pretty good study on it right now and I'm very impressed, especially when less than a year ago I found myself doubting the Bible, and I had lost my faith in God entirely. I find it very interesting.

[JewishHobbit]

In some places it's moral to cut off your wives hands if she cheats.

Oh the good ol' days :)

Cheating douchebags.

[mrvlknight21]

Let's say that I treat those who are bigoted against me and mine with "Respect". I don't criticise their views, I let them go on insulting people who have done nothing but be born a certain way.

Who wins there?

I don't see any value in turning the other cheek



Ok, apparently you did mean it.
First of all, if you are treating a person, friend or foe in regards to the argument at hand, with respect, they are more apt to #1 listen and #2 respect you back.
Secondly, even if they do not treat you with respect during the argument/discussion, if you still act like the better person, anyone around there will note your behavior and will also be more apt to #1 listen to you and #2 respect you.
These are not the only benefits, but I am appealing to your obvious passion in regards to this subject. Wouldnt you rather appear to be the more level headed, intelligent and respectful one, in order to help get your own point and views across? I mean, there is a right and wrong way to do everything and treating the other person, even if they are a foe, with respect, does do wonders for your own cause, whether you want to believe it or not.

I can cite instances where me treating someone that most people would say deserves no respect and in fact should be looked upon in a vile manner has helped me and my cause and the person made note of it.

Again, if for no other reason, it does help your views/cause to be looked upon in a more appealing light if you act respectful in my opinion.

[Majic Walrus]

All also utterly terrible and unfit to rule.


You missed my point I think.


I long for the day when such places are forced to change


Because forcing people to do what you want is obviously the best way to do things. :doh:


Because unless they have proof that God is real and has personally told each and every one of them that homosexuality is wrong, then in my opinion their arguement that God does not agree with those who are LGBT is not valid

Ahhh they are entitled to believe what they want, but you don't think it's valid. Seems to me that you don't respect their beliefs at all.


Exactly. I see the government as a kind of dumb animal. I want it to do tricks for me. And remain silent at all other times

:dry:


It is useless and retards mankinds potential. Therefore it should be excised from the human psyche

Which doesn't say anything to whether or not it is natural.


It's not bigotry to hate those who hate you.

The difference being I do not harm anyone. Bigots DO.


It is bigotry to hate religious people because of what they believe though.


I'm not open minded toward those who have a negative view of people who are LGBT, no

Okay I'm pretty done now, this is getting frustrating.

You could sum up your point of view by saying "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" and sticking your tongue out at them.

You don't want fairness or equality in the least because you are just too self-concerned and self-absorbed to really value anything beyond your own personal goals and desires. There's nothing wrong with that, but you give a really bad name to people who do stand for fairness and equality.



I disagree. I think the government does have a place in determining "right" and "wrong". Tyranny is wrong. Freedom is right. Socialism is wrong. Capitalism is right. It is not the government job to pretend that Tyranny is acceptable or that Freedom is unjust.

Maybe to a certain degree I can see that, but on a very broad scale. Governments don't have any place in determining the morality of every day life. Is speeding right or wrong, is homosexuality right or wrong, etc etc. The government can make laws about that but it doesn't affect someone's personal morality.

[Mystirious]

As for these, I won't go into depth because this isn't a religious debate thread and I don't want to swing it too far from the actual topic. But I'll say this, speaking for Christianity at least....

We do feel that we've been told by God that homosexuality is a sin. Yes, it's unpleasant, but so are a lot of other things that we personally enjoy that are labled as sins. Some of us have a way of feeling when God is directing us. It's not an autable voice or a man in a robe, but in time as you pray and focus on God, you can figure it out. As someone who doesn't believe I don't expect you to understand that, but it happens to thousands of people or more every single day.

A less supernatural method of feeling we've been told this by God is the Bible itself. I know there's question among athiests and agnostics regarding the Bible's authenticity, but if you ignore the Bible itself and look around it, you can find enough proofs to put up an amazing case for the Bible being what we believe it to be. Again, there's a lot of detail, and I'm rusty on it, but it includes such things as knowing the time period it was written, comparing why the books in it work while others that contradict it wasn't, the oldest letters of the Bible that we have compared to now, prophecies fulfilled, Bible quotations in letters written by non religious people less than 100 years after the writing of the New Testiment, The non-contridictary nature of the book, etc.

A lot of details verify the Bible as being a legit work inspired by God, and if it is inspired by God, then what it says is also inspired by God, including what is and isn't sin and how to deal with it. Unfortunately too many people focus on the "Sin" part and not the proper way of how to deal with it.

If you ever want to look into any of that, or anyone else for that matter, look into a book called The Case for Christ. It goes into a lot of interesting detail on the matter. My Sunday School is doing a pretty good study on it right now and I'm very impressed, especially when less than a year ago I found myself doubting the Bible, and I had lost my faith in God entirely. I find it very interesting.

With no offence meant to you:

I disagree with everything said in the post on every conceivable level.

But most particularly the claim that there is any proof that the Bible was legitimately inspired by God.

If you believe in God I'm not going to tell you that you can't. I'm not even going to tell you that you're wrong...the only way ANY of us will ever find out for sure if there is a God and what he/she/it thinks of anything is by dying and finding out what lies beyond death.

But the fact of the matter is that there is no hard, incontrovertible evidence that there is a God, or that the Bible is any indicator of his/her/it's will.

If you believe that it is, fine. That's your belief. I disagree with it but I cannot disprove it. But at the same time, no one can prove there is a God either.

[Mystirious]

Because forcing people to do what you want is obviously the best way to do things. :doh:

It's certainly the quickest

Sorry but one thing I'm not is patient. I don't want to wait for change. I want change now.

Ahhh they are entitled to believe what they want, but you don't think it's valid. Seems to me that you don't respect their beliefs at all.

I don't share their beliefs. There is a difference.

I'm not saying there wrong. I'm saying I don't personally think their right. That's MY belief.


:dry:

That comment was not meant 100% seriously. I'd hoped that was clear from the tone


It is bigotry to hate religious people because of what they believe though.


If those beliefs are "All gays deserve to burn in hell" I don't see it as bigotry to hate them for that

You don't want fairness or equality in the least because you are just too self-concerned and self-absorbed to really value anything beyond your own personal goals and desires. There's nothing wrong with that, but you give a really bad name to people who do stand for fairness and equality.


I want fairness and equality for those who are LGBT, along with other minorities.

Ok, apparently you did mean it.
First of all, if you are treating a person, friend or foe in regards to the argument at hand, with respect, they are more apt to #1 listen and #2 respect you back.
Secondly, even if they do not treat you with respect during the argument/discussion, if you still act like the better person, anyone around there will note your behavior and will also be more apt to #1 listen to you and #2 respect you.
These are not the only benefits, but I am appealing to your obvious passion in regards to this subject. Wouldnt you rather appear to be the more level headed, intelligent and respectful one, in order to help get your own point and views across? I mean, there is a right and wrong way to do everything and treating the other person, even if they are a foe, with respect, does do wonders for your own cause, whether you want to believe it or not.

I can cite instances where me treating someone that most people would say deserves no respect and in fact should be looked upon in a vile manner has helped me and my cause and the person made note of it.

Again, if for no other reason, it does help your views/cause to be looked upon in a more appealing light if you act respectful in my opinion.

Why is it on US to be the shining examples of perfection?

Why is it okay for bigots to treat me and people like me with hatred and disrespect, but not okay for us to respond in kind?

[JewishHobbit]

This is a sensible position but I would have to ask you what you think should happen when marriage rights and benefits come into conflict with people outside the realm of the church. What do you think should happen when a business owner refuses to cover a worker's spouse under their health plan because they are a gay couple and doing so against their religion?

I speak only as a christian, as that's what I know. I dont' know about other beliefs and how it should be handled, but honestly... I think the business person should cover them. If the person is against homosexuality due to his religion, he's entitled that, but the Bible also states that we are to adhere to the laws of the land. If law was passed that entitled a homosexual couple to be covered by insurance, then that religious business owner needs to follow what the law says whether or not he agrees with it. Granting them insurance as guided by the law is by no means breaking the man's religious beliefs. The Bible says that homosexuality is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated, it does not, as far as I know, say that those harboring homosexual sin should be belittled or deny anything.

So yeah, it isn't a sin to offer homosexuals insurance, so why deny it? To deny it is indeed going a bit too far into bigotry territory.

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.- Loving v. Virginia

The courts would disagree with you. Marriage is considered a fundamental right and now its really down to whether or not that right will be be given to same sex couples.

Honestly, reading anything textbook like that gives me a headache. My mind just doesn't digest that stuff. I tried to read through it and have no idea what it's telling me, but I kinda get the jist. And my thought on it, as far as I understand it, is that this is a civil right, not a human right. But honestly, this law stuff is above my understanding so I'm not the best to comment on it.

[Majic Walrus]

It's certainly the quickest

Sorry but one thing I'm not is patient. I don't want to wait for change. I want change now.

Then friend I think you do like a form of government. I think you'd love a totalitarian dictator who was also gay. Trust me you wouldn't have a single problem...


I don't share their beliefs. There is a difference.

I'm not saying there wrong. I'm saying I don't personally think their right. That's MY belief.


Your previous messages to JewHob tend to paint a different picture. You can say that you're just believing what you choose to believe, but I don't think that's true. I'm thinking that you really do feel that they are wrong and it becomes clear when you talk to someone.


That comment was not meant 100% seriously. I'd hoped that was clear from the tone

Oh I believed you. I was trying to show my astonishment at that sort of comment.


I want fairness and equality for those who are LGBT, along with other minorities.

:facepalm:

You want fairness and equality for some people... but not everyone else. That is so completely hypocritical it's appalling.


Why is it on US to be the shining examples of perfection?

Why is it okay for bigots to treat me and people like me with hatred and disrespect, but not okay for us to respond in kind?

Because if hatred is wrong for them to show to you then it's wrong for you to show to them.

[Mystirious]

I speak only as a christian, as that's what I know. I dont' know about other beliefs and how it should be handled, but honestly... I think the business person should cover them. If the person is against homosexuality due to his religion, he's entitled that, but the Bible also states that we are to adhere to the laws of the land. If law was passed that entitled a homosexual couple to be covered by insurance, then that religious business owner needs to follow what the law says whether or not he agrees with it. Granting them insurance as guided by the law is by no means breaking the man's religious beliefs. The Bible says that homosexuality is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated, it does not, as far as I know, say that those harboring homosexual sin should be belittled or deny anything.

I am confused here

Earlier you said that you ARE tolerant of those who are LGBT. Yet you justify the view that it is "Sinful" using religion.

Also I have heard from many, many people who are religious (And who have no problem with gay people) that the bible does not, in fact, clearly say anything against homosexuality.

[Tally Man]

I speak only as a christian, as that's what I know. I dont' know about other beliefs and how it should be handled, but honestly... I think the business person should cover them. If the person is against homosexuality due to his religion, he's entitled that, but the Bible also states that we are to adhere to the laws of the land. If law was passed that entitled a homosexual couple to be covered by insurance, then that religious business owner needs to follow what the law says whether or not he agrees with it. Granting them insurance as guided by the law is by no means breaking the man's religious beliefs. The Bible says that homosexuality is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated, it does not, as far as I know, say that those harboring homosexual sin should be belittled or deny anything.

So yeah, it isn't a sin to offer homosexuals insurance, so why deny it? To deny it is indeed going a bit too far into bigotry territory.

Well the long and short of such arguments are that by giving benefits the person would be forced to recognize that marriage which would be against their beliefs. These are basically the types of arguments which will come up in an issue such as this. The question becomes where do we draw the line in terms of allowing discrimination with regards to religious beliefs.

Honestly, reading anything textbook like that gives me a headache. My mind just doesn't digest that stuff. I tried to read through it and have no idea what it's telling me, but I kinda get the jist. And my thought on it, as far as I understand it, is that this is a civil right, not a human right. But honestly, this law stuff is above my understanding so I'm not the best to comment on it.

My point was more along the lines of commenting that somehow marriage isn't something which is guaranteed to people by virtue of its status which in reality it is. The real question these days is whether such a right is something which the law should recognize for same sex marriages or if this fundamental right is something which shouldn't be given based on the sexes of couples.

[Mystirious]

Then friend I think you do like a form of government. I think you'd love a totalitarian dictator who was also gay. Trust me you wouldn't have a single problem...

Authority in general rubs me the wrong way. So I doubt I'd be happy with that either






:facepalm:

You want fairness and equality for some people... but not everyone else. That is so completely hypocritical it's appalling.



I won't lose sleep if bigots don't have the right to use hate speech and persecute innocent people.

Because if hatred is wrong for them to show to you then it's wrong for you to show to them.

I don't think there's anything wrong with hating someone

I think there's something wrong with hating someone for no good reason.

So for example, if someone steals from you, tries to kill you or whatever...yeah, you have every right to hate them. And if someone is bigoted toward you, simply because you exist then you have the right to hate them for that, in my opinion.

Bigotry however is baseless hatred with no valid or logical reasoning behind it

[Majic Walrus]

I won't lose sleep if bigots don't have the right to use hate speech and persecute innocent people.

Do I get fairness and equality too? I'm not LGBT... but you're not really concerned with my rights. So you're not concerned with equal rights.

You're concerned with gay rights. Period.


I don't think there's anything wrong with hating someone

I think there's something wrong with hating someone for no good reason.

"Good reason" as defined by... You. That is exceptionally convenient. :awesome:


So for example, if someone steals from you, tries to kill you or whatever...yeah, you have every right to hate them. And if someone is bigoted toward you, simply because you exist then you have the right to hate them for that, in my opinion.

Bigotry however is baseless hatred with no valid or logical reasoning behind it

From Encarta:



big·ot [ bíggət (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/Pronounce.aspx?search=bigot) ] (plural big·ots)

noun
Definition: intolerant person: somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views

You qualify. Sorry.

[mrvlknight21]

Why is it on US to be the shining examples of perfection?

Why is it okay for bigots to treat me and people like me with hatred and disrespect, but not okay for us to respond in kind?

Wow. I really think you are letting your anger in regards to this issue prevent you from seeing some basic things.

First, someone will always dislike you. Not necessarily for being gay, but for being white or black, tall or short, good looking or ugly, rich or poor, religious or not..etc etc.

So, please keep this in mind, because EVERYONE, whether they like it or not, has enemies. It may be enemies to their cause, to their religion or whatever. Treating those enemies with disrespect, PARTICULARLY while discussing the issues at hand, does NOTHING good for either group. If you do that, you have just given them a reason to dislike you more or add fuel to their fire.

The people that you speak about, the oppressors and bigots, you will probably not ever change their mind in regards to the issue at hand. But, maybe, if you act respectful while telling them how they are wrong/how they have hurt you/how you feel, etc then you may at least get them to hear you.

Do you see what I am saying? You keep speaking about how you abhor the bigots and all and that is fine and understandable. But, if you act disrespectful and they see that, they can use that against you as well.

So, when you say why should you (us) be the ones to take the high road, there are many answers. #1 In my opinion is SO THAT YOU DONT LOOK/ACT LIKE THE VERY PEOPLE YOU ARE RALLYING AGAINST!!!

Im not saying turn the other cheek either, but you can ALWAYS respond respectfully, even to those who disrespect you. It will be noticed. Again, in my experience, it is much better in both the long and short run of fighting for your cause.

[StorminNorman]

I hate it when people attack form of government as if that's the problem. It's not. No form of government is inherently bad or good. It's the people in the government that make it that way. Each form of government has their advantages and disadvantages.

And having no government isn't an option either because government is an automatic consequence of society. If you have a group of more than 1 person, a government exists.

Governments spring up whenever there's a dispute between 2 or more people/businesses/cities/whatever that they can't resolve without violence. And instead of fighting each other, they want to resolve it peacefully, and put trust and promise to follow the ruling into a third party. And we give that third party some kind of power to enforce it's ruling in case one of those in dispute decide not to follow it. Whether that third party be a head of a family, a village elder, an elected or appointed official, or a court, it's all government.

If you value the individual, if you think a man should be able to live for himself and not have to sacrifice himself for his state, then you have to consider socialistic, communistic, fascist governments to be evil.

[Mystirious]

Wow. I really think you are letting your anger in regards to this issue prevent you from seeing some basic things.

First, someone will always dislike you. Not necessarily for being gay, but for being white or black, tall or short, good looking or ugly, rich or poor, religious or not..etc etc.

I realise this.

I don't see why I should have to treat those who dislike me better than they treat me

The people that you speak about, the oppressors and bigots, you will probably not ever change their mind in regards to the issue at hand. But, maybe, if you act respectful while telling them how they are wrong/how they have hurt you/how you feel, etc then you may at least get them to hear you.

You honestly think any of them CARE?

I don't feel these peoples minds can be changed. They don't view us as even being deserving of being seen as human beings.

Im not saying turn the other cheek either, but you can ALWAYS respond respectfully, even to those who disrespect you. It will be noticed. Again, in my experience, it is much better in both the long and short run of fighting for your cause.

No offence meant to you, but maybe I'm sick of the fact it falls on us to be oh so good and honourable and respectful in "Fighting for our cause" while the bigots use whatever means necessary to win and come out of it the winners as a result

Do I get fairness and equality too? I'm not LGBT... but you're not really concerned with my rights. So you're not concerned with equal rights.

You're concerned with gay rights. Period.

Perhaps I should have said "My PRIMARY concern is gay rights".

Look it may well be selfish. But yeah, right now I want better rights for myself and people like me. That's my primary concern.

I'm not saying I don't give a damn about everyone else. I worded my initial post very poorly, apologies.

But my main concern is seeing equal rights for those who are LGBT.


"Good reason" as defined by... You. That is exceptionally convenient. :awesome:


Alright. Can you provide a good reason to hate all those who are LGBT? How do we harm anyone? How do we affect anyones lives in any negative way?


big·ot [ bíggət (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/Pronounce.aspx?search=bigot) ] (plural big·ots)

noun
Definition: intolerant person: somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views


That's not how I define a bigot.

I define a bigot as someone who hates irrationally.

So hating someone for their sexuality, skin colour, faith, eye colour, hair colour, nationality etc etc? That's how I define bigotry

Hating someone because they are bigoted toward you? Not what I would call bigotry

[Kelly]

So there is a Mystirious Dictionary?

Is it on sale next to Webster's Dictionary?


So let me get this straight...


1. Your views are the only relevant views in your world, and those that disagree with you are bigots. Please don't try and say no to this again in a post, because your posts tell otherwise.
2. What you see is wrong, is ok...and your hatred of others is ok, but people's dislike of your lifestyle is not...? ok...
3. AND you have written your own dictionary...

hmm...

[JewishHobbit]

If you believe in God I'm not going to tell you that you can't. I'm not even going to tell you that you're wrong...the only way ANY of us will ever find out for sure if there is a God and what he/she/it thinks of anything is by dying and finding out what lies beyond death.

But the fact of the matter is that there is no hard, incontrovertible evidence that there is a God, or that the Bible is any indicator of his/her/it's will.

If you believe that it is, fine. That's your belief. I disagree with it but I cannot disprove it. But at the same time, no one can prove there is a God either.

There is proof, but it's very individual in many cases based on experiences. You, as someone who doesn't believe, will likely never experience the things that some people take as proof. And you would like call those who have expereicned these things liers or crazy, as most do. This proof typically comes after you've accepted God through faith, your faith builds to a certain point, and then you start experiencing things unexplainable.

For example... I have encountered real life demons (though never having actually seen one physically). I've felt what it feels like to be in their presence. I've done a few house exorcisms. I've told Demons what to do in Christ's name and they responded how I told them. I've also been blinded in a car accident and the doctor (who I'm not certain was a christian or not) told me that God is the only answer to how I see now, as his expertise couldn't help me. He was as astounded at my recovery as I was. I've also seen an angel once, later varified as the same angel in the same place that another person had seen it (my best friend's grandfather actually).

I have two other friends who've been able to see demons since they were kids. A man I used to know told me about a time when he woke up seeing what may have been Satan himself sitting at the foot of his bed. My best friend's grandfather claims to have once healed a man's dead foot back to health just by praying for it. I know of a few people who had terminal cancer who, after being prayed for, suddenly 'pooped' out the most disgusted stuff ever and went to the doctor to receive a clean bill of health. There was also a group of about 6 women I know who was praying at one of their houses about something or other (don't recall what about) but, as we're penticostal, they all, as we call, went out in the spirit. They lied there praising God and each one opened their eyes mid-prayer and saw angels standing around the room looking down at them.

While I don't expect you to believe any of this, me having experienced some of it and knowing those who tell me about their stories (and I only mentioned those stories by people I know to be trusting and truthful), I have received concrete hard proof in God's existence. It's personal proof, and I don't expect you or anyone else to believe me, but I don't need you to. I know exactly what I've been through, what I've seen and experienced, and it's a complete relief to know for 100% fact that God does exist and that everything in the Bible is accurate.

So yeah, the facts are out there to prove God's existance, but it's nothing that non-believers would accept, so you just continue to say that there is no proof. But truth be told, there is. Not everyone's had experiences like me, but many have. Happens every day all over the world.

And no, there were no narcotics or hallucigens used at any time. I've never been on drugs, smoked so much as a cigarette, or drank even as much as a wine cooler. Nothing like that has ever been in my system and I nor anyone in my family ever had any sort of mental illness. But even if all that was true, what's the chances of thousands of people or more around the world experiencing these types of things?

[Mystirious]

So there is a Mystirious Dictionary?

Is it on sale next to Webster's Dictionary?


So let me get this straight...


1. Your views are the only relevant views in your world, and those that disagree with you are bigots. Please don't try and say no to this again in a post, because your posts tell otherwise.
2. What you see is wrong, is ok...and your hatred of others is ok, but people's dislike of your lifestyle is not...? ok...
3. AND you have written your own dictionary...

hmm...

The majority of posters in this thread disagree with me. I haven't called them bigots.

The only people I term bigots are those who hate or persecute those who are LGBT

[wiegeabo]

If you value the individual, if you think a man should be able to live for himself and not have to sacrifice himself for his state, then you have to consider socialistic, communistic, fascist governments to be evil.

I don't want to get too far off topic, but I'll say that, no, I don't have to consider them evil. They're not evil. Being a Libertarian, they're certainly not forms of government that I'd want to live under, I'll say that (although, there was a time that I thought a social democracy with a communist economy didn't sound like such a bad thing).

Yes, fascism and communism were horribly abused by Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin. And are still abused by China and Cuba. But there are ways for those systems to work peacefully and provide prosperity to their citizens. But like with any form of government, it relies on the citizens wanting to live under it, and positions of power not being abused.

[mrvlknight21]

I realise this.

I don't see why I should have to treat those who dislike me better than they treat me



You honestly think any of them CARE?

I don't feel these peoples minds can be changed. They don't view us as even being deserving of being seen as human beings.



No offence meant to you, but maybe I'm sick of the fact it falls on us to be oh so good and honourable and respectful in "Fighting for our cause" while the bigots use whatever means necessary to win and come out of it the winners as a result



I am guessing from some of your replies that you are a bit younger than me. Nothing wrong with that, but you really are refusing to see some very basic things. I am speaking from some experience as mentioned before.

Have you ever heard of people who actually get to spend time with someone different than them, when that "different" person treats them with basic human respect? I have seen many cases where people have gone from not understanding or even hating someone that was different and after a period of time, that person completely defies all the stereotypes and becomes just a person or a friend to that "different" person??? IT HAPPENS.


You DONT have to treat anyone better or worse than anything. BUT I LISTED SEVERAL REASONS THAT I THINK THAT YOU SHOULD AND IT WOULD BENEFIT YOU. AGAIN, YOU DONT WANT TO LOOK/ACT LIKE THEY DO. If you abhor them as much as you say, why not act in a completely different way than they do??????

Keep in mind, despite what I said above that I never said their minds could be changed, in fact, I said that you will probably not ever change their minds. But do you realize how disarming it is to someone who EXPECTS you to treat them with disrespect when you do just the opposite? Look, treating your enemies with respect doesnt mean you have to be any less aggressive in seeking the goals and rights that you have mentioned.

For someone speaking of tolerance, you seem very closeminded about a lot of things.

[Majic Walrus]

Perhaps I should have said "My PRIMARY concern is gay rights".

Well... perhaps you should've, but what would've been accurate is to say that you are wholly concerned with gay rights and not concerned with equality.


Look it may well be selfish. But yeah, right now I want better rights for myself and people like me. That's my primary concern.

I'm not saying I don't give a damn about everyone else. I worded my initial post very poorly, apologies.

But my main concern is seeing equal rights for those who are LGBT.

No apology is necessary. Being selfish is normal, it just probably won't help you achieve your goals very well.


Alright. Can you provide a good reason to hate all those who are LGBT? How do we harm anyone? How do we affect anyones lives in any negative way?

No. First of all I want to say that just because someone does not support gay rights doesn't make them a homophobe and it's rude for you to lump people into categories like that. Second of all I totally support gay rights so I don't have a reason that I can support. But finally LOTS of people don't support gay rights and they all feel completely justified in that.


That's not how I define a bigot.

I define a bigot as someone who hates irrationally.

So hating someone for their sexuality, skin colour, faith, eye colour, hair colour, nationality etc etc? That's how I define bigotry

Hating someone because they are bigoted toward you? Not what I would call bigotry

This argument is completely pointless. It is impossible to argue with someone who redefines words during the argument. It's just plain stupid to engage in that sort of activity if there can't be any meaningful discussion.

[JewishHobbit]

I am confused here

Earlier you said that you ARE tolerant of those who are LGBT. Yet you justify the view that it is "Sinful" using religion.

I was paraphrasing what the Bible said there. Let me be more detailed on what my stance is. So don't stand by that.

But let me clarify my stance on homosexuality a little better. I do 100% see homosexuality as a sin based on Bible teachings. However, the Bible also says that no sin is great than any other and that all people should be loved. Therefor, while I do think homosexuality is a sin, the homosexuals themselves are no better or worse than myself, who also have my own sins. So I can believe homosexuality is sin, and I back that notion, but I have absolutely nothing aginst the homosexuals themselves. I can separate the person from the sexuality. In my opinion, a person's sexuality doesn't make up who they are, it is just a small aspect, gay or straight. There's a lot more to a person than just that, and I can love that person no matter what their sexuality is.

Thus, as long as it isn't stepping on a person's religious beliefs, I don't mind if a homosexual is granted rights not currently given them. I won't support their lifestyle, but it wouldn't offend me if things moved forward for them either. Personally, I'm fully expecting it to.

Also I have heard from many, many people who are religious (And who have no problem with gay people) that the bible does not, in fact, clearly say anything against homosexuality.

It does actually. I remember hearing this as well during a time when I decided to stop listening to what people tell me and look into it myself. I've heard the Bible speaks against homosexuality so I thought I'd look into it. I don't remember what they were but I found a good 8 or 9 passages refering to homosexuality as sin very concretely.

Unfortunately, I've only recently returned to the church scene so I'm really rusty on my Bible reading. I'll have to get back with you on some passage examples as I find them.

[Kelly]

The majority of posters in this thread disagree with me. I haven't called them bigots.

The only people I term bigots are those who hate or persecute those who are LGBT


Yeah ya did, there was one young man that sees homosexuality as a sin...you called him a bigot.

Look, bottom line for me on this debate with you is this.

Plain, simple, blunt and totally truthful as truthful as I can be.

I am glad that my gay friends do not hold your views of people, I am glad that they can disagree, and do it with respect, I'm glad that they are the ones o the front lines of this movement here in the US and not you. Because if the front line people held your views here, the movement would be doomed before it got started. Go ahead and have your views, but please don't come help this movement in the US. They do not need your help...

[Marx]

The majority of posters in this thread disagree with me.

No. Actually, the majority of the people in this thread support equality and gay rights. (Myself included.) What many see as the issue is your over-the-top hatred of anyone who doesn't share your specific opinion. With all due respect, you cannot go around demanding respect when you show absolutely none to those you would seek it from.

I haven't called them bigots.
No, but you have implied it.

[mrvlknight21]

No. Actually, the majority of the people in this thread support equality and gay rights. (Myself included.) What many see as the issue is your over-the-top hatred of anyone who doesn't share your specific opinion. With all due respect, you cannot go around demanding respect when you show absolutey none to those you would seek it from.


No, but you have implied it.

I think she somehow feels that if she isnt this way, she isnt being aggressive in her stance on the issue. When in fact, as I have and you have just stated, it just makes people want to tune her out, rather than hear her out. It also makes her look as intolerant as the people that she is fighting against with this issue.

[Marx]

I think she somehow feels that if she isnt this way, she isnt being aggressive in her stance on the issue. When in fact, as I have and you have just stated, it just makes people want to tune her out, rather than hear her out. It also makes her look as intolerant as the people that she is fighting against with this issue.

Exactly.

[BlackLantern]

I think she somehow feels that if she isnt this way, she isnt being aggressive in her stance on the issue. When in fact, as I have and you have just stated, it just makes people want to tune her out, rather than hear her out. It also makes her look as intolerant as the people that she is fighting against with this issue.

what this person said

[JewishHobbit]

I think she somehow feels that if she isnt this way, she isnt being aggressive in her stance on the issue. When in fact, as I have and you have just stated, it just makes people want to tune her out, rather than hear her out. It also makes her look as intolerant as the people that she is fighting against with this issue.

Especially since there isn't any over the top anti-homosexuals present in this thread.

[Kelly]

I think you just hit the nail on the head JH...the tone is not needed to get the opinions across when no one else is giving that kind of tone in reply.

[Mystirious]

I am guessing from some of your replies that you are a bit younger than me. Nothing wrong with that, but you really are refusing to see some very basic things. I am speaking from some experience as mentioned before.

Have you ever heard of people who actually get to spend time with someone different than them, when that "different" person treats them with basic human respect? I have seen many cases where people have gone from not understanding or even hating someone that was different and after a period of time, that person completely defies all the stereotypes and becomes just a person or a friend to that "different" person??? IT HAPPENS.


You DONT have to treat anyone better or worse than anything. BUT I LISTED SEVERAL REASONS THAT I THINK THAT YOU SHOULD AND IT WOULD BENEFIT YOU. AGAIN, YOU DONT WANT TO LOOK/ACT LIKE THEY DO. If you abhor them as much as you say, why not act in a completely different way than they do??????

Keep in mind, despite what I said above that I never said their minds could be changed, in fact, I said that you will probably not ever change their minds. But do you realize how disarming it is to someone who EXPECTS you to treat them with disrespect when you do just the opposite? Look, treating your enemies with respect doesnt mean you have to be any less aggressive in seeking the goals and rights that you have mentioned.

For someone speaking of tolerance, you seem very closeminded about a lot of things.

Every day all I seem to see is more bad news when it comes to equal rights for those who are LGBT. More persecution, more gay bashings, more and more hatred.

I can't help but feel a little angry and hateful in return. It's just my nature

I think you just hit the nail on the head JH...the tone is not needed to get the opinions across when no one else is giving that kind of tone in reply.

I'll try and rein it in.

I'm sorry but I just get so frustrated with the world sometimes. And my anger just gets the better of me

[mrvlknight21]

Every day all I seem to see is more bad news when it comes to equal rights for those who are LGBT. More persecution, more gay bashings, more and more hatred.

I can't help but feel a little angry and hateful in return. It's just my nature



I'll try and rein it in.

I'm sorry but I just get so frustrated with the world sometimes. And my anger just gets the better of me

Im not saying you dont have a right to be angry or fight for your cause. But again, if you do the fighting with respect, you are more likely to be heard and will certainly not look like those intolerant people who you are fighting against.
I hope that you can make something good happen for your cause. Honestly.

[Mystirious]

Im not saying you dont have a right to be angry or fight for your cause. But again, if you do the fighting with respect, you are more likely to be heard and will certainly not look like those intolerant people who you are fighting against.
I hope that you can make something good happen for your cause. Honestly.

Thank you for saying that

I just want the world to improve. I'm sick of the way things are


So yeah, the facts are out there to prove God's existance, but it's nothing that non-believers would accept, so you just continue to say that there is no proof. But truth be told, there is. Not everyone's had experiences like me, but many have. Happens every day all over the world.

I would not call that proof as there are any number of medical and scientific explanations.

[JewishHobbit]

I would not call that proof as there are any number of medical and scientific explanations.

Only for those hearing it second hand. It's a whole differant bag when you experience it yourself. Especially when the doctor himself says "God's the only way you're seeing right now because it certainly wasn't me". Yes, there's times when people experience 'miracles' or supernatural elements, only to find out that's not quite the case. But that's not all inclusive.

But again, I don't expect you to believe that. Without having experienced it, it's just all a bunch of rubbish and easily explained away in some scientific or medical method, not that you know how it would be, just that it MUST be because it's too out there to believe. I've heard that a lot, and if I tell people the details they can never give me more than an opinion on what MIGHT be the reason without being able to tell me why or how. It's just an excuse in the long run because they don't want it to be true.

My being able to see again after being blinded after the doctor said it had to be God... well I can honestly say that if someone proved that to be something, it wouldn't surprise me. It's the supernatural-ish stuff that's got me convinced. The blindness thing is just icing on the cake. And if someone could prove my stuff wrong, and there's a lot of it, that's just one person's experience, you have thousands and thousands more to continue proving as medical or scientific and the number grows daily.

[Kelly]

I always just figured God used Science to get the job done...

I'm of the school, that one day we all day, and on that day we will find out who was right and who was wrong.

[Addendum]

I'm of the opinion that no one will find out "who was right" and "who was wrong", since once we die, that's it.

[JewishHobbit]

I definately think God uses Science. People separate the two like one's taboo to the other but I don't really see why (save for in certain areas where they conflict too much). I've heard a few people speak on these types of topics and they're always interesting. I don't always agree with everyone, but it's always interesting at least.

[JewishHobbit]

I'm of the opinion that no one will find out "who was right" and "who was wrong", since once we die, that's it.

While you're certainly entitled to your belief (and I think we've discussed it at length at some point... loudly perhaps :)) I've always found this mindset to be incredibly sad. Not insulting 'sad' but just depressing. If I were of that mindset I'd be looking for anything to convince me that it's not the end. Not because I want to live forever, but that I'd hate the idea of never seeing any dead loved ones again.

[Kelly]

People are going to have their beliefs...if you just die...well then you just found out their ain't nothin' left. If you stand facing God, well then I hope you got your crap together...because you are about to meet the maker. If all you ever thought was you just died, and didn't care or do much for people, care about people, etc....well it may not be a very positive meeting.

Whatever happens....yes we die.

[wiegeabo]

Speak for yourself. I plan on living forever. ;)

[Kelly]

lol...good luck with that.

[JewishHobbit]

Speak for yourself. I plan on living forever.

So did Michael Jackson ;)

[Bathead]

All I can say on this subject,is to read my Sig below.

[Sloth7d]

So there is a Mystirious Dictionary?

Is it on sale next to Webster's Dictionary?


So let me get this straight...


1. Your views are the only relevant views in your world, and those that disagree with you are bigots. Please don't try and say no to this again in a post, because your posts tell otherwise.
2. What you see is wrong, is ok...and your hatred of others is ok, but people's dislike of your lifestyle is not...? ok...
3. AND you have written your own dictionary...

hmm...

To be fair, his definition of bigotry seems to be the one most used in colloquial terms.

There is proof, but it's very individual in many cases based on experiences. You, as someone who doesn't believe, will likely never experience the things that some people take as proof. And you would like call those who have expereicned these things liers or crazy, as most do. This proof typically comes after you've accepted God through faith, your faith builds to a certain point, and then you start experiencing things unexplainable.

For example... I have encountered real life demons (though never having actually seen one physically). I've felt what it feels like to be in their presence. I've done a few house exorcisms. I've told Demons what to do in Christ's name and they responded how I told them. I've also been blinded in a car accident and the doctor (who I'm not certain was a christian or not) told me that God is the only answer to how I see now, as his expertise couldn't help me. He was as astounded at my recovery as I was. I've also seen an angel once, later varified as the same angel in the same place that another person had seen it (my best friend's grandfather actually).

I have two other friends who've been able to see demons since they were kids. A man I used to know told me about a time when he woke up seeing what may have been Satan himself sitting at the foot of his bed. My best friend's grandfather claims to have once healed a man's dead foot back to health just by praying for it. I know of a few people who had terminal cancer who, after being prayed for, suddenly 'pooped' out the most disgusted stuff ever and went to the doctor to receive a clean bill of health. There was also a group of about 6 women I know who was praying at one of their houses about something or other (don't recall what about) but, as we're penticostal, they all, as we call, went out in the spirit. They lied there praising God and each one opened their eyes mid-prayer and saw angels standing around the room looking down at them.

While I don't expect you to believe any of this, me having experienced some of it and knowing those who tell me about their stories (and I only mentioned those stories by people I know to be trusting and truthful), I have received concrete hard proof in God's existence. It's personal proof, and I don't expect you or anyone else to believe me, but I don't need you to. I know exactly what I've been through, what I've seen and experienced, and it's a complete relief to know for 100% fact that God does exist and that everything in the Bible is accurate.

So yeah, the facts are out there to prove God's existance, but it's nothing that non-believers would accept, so you just continue to say that there is no proof. But truth be told, there is. Not everyone's had experiences like me, but many have. Happens every day all over the world.

And no, there were no narcotics or hallucigens used at any time. I've never been on drugs, smoked so much as a cigarette, or drank even as much as a wine cooler. Nothing like that has ever been in my system and I nor anyone in my family ever had any sort of mental illness. But even if all that was true, what's the chances of thousands of people or more around the world experiencing these types of things?

Well, this isn't what he asked for at all. He said no one will be able to prove it, not that there isn't any unknown bits of evidence out there mankind has yet to learn about. However your accounts, nor the accounts of an alien abductee, nor the accounts of a muslim, nor the accounts of a buddists, nor the accounts of a christian, etc. proves their beliefs like Mystirious was saying no one could. Though I'm guessing they're proof enough for yourself, but again, that wasn't what he was asking for.

[Bill]

Only for those hearing it second hand. It's a whole differant bag when you experience it yourself. Especially when the doctor himself says "God's the only way you're seeing right now because it certainly wasn't me". Yes, there's times when people experience 'miracles' or supernatural elements, only to find out that's not quite the case. But that's not all inclusive.

But again, I don't expect you to believe that. Without having experienced it, it's just all a bunch of rubbish and easily explained away in some scientific or medical method, not that you know how it would be, just that it MUST be because it's too out there to believe. I've heard that a lot, and if I tell people the details they can never give me more than an opinion on what MIGHT be the reason without being able to tell me why or how. It's just an excuse in the long run because they don't want it to be true.

My being able to see again after being blinded after the doctor said it had to be God... well I can honestly say that if someone proved that to be something, it wouldn't surprise me. It's the supernatural-ish stuff that's got me convinced. The blindness thing is just icing on the cake. And if someone could prove my stuff wrong, and there's a lot of it, that's just one person's experience, you have thousands and thousands more to continue proving as medical or scientific and the number grows daily.

Why would God fix your blindness, but allow countless babies and children to die of abandonment, starvation or abuse?

That number grows daily as well.

Many people go blind and never get their sight back. Instead of worrying about someone giving an explanation, wonder what made you so special that a god wanted you to see but not countless others see, hear, feel or live.

[TheFuture]

People are going to have their beliefs...if you just die...well then you just found out their ain't nothin' left. If you stand facing God, well then I hope you got your crap together...because you are about to meet the maker. If all you ever thought was you just died, and didn't care or do much for people, care about people, etc....well it may not be a very positive meeting.

Whatever happens....yes we die.

How can God punish a gay person for what he is? Listen to any gay person and they'll tell you that this is the way they were born. Others might say that they lived a "straight" life, but just so happened to fall in love with a member of the same sex. How can God punish these people for the way he made them?

[BlackLantern]

How can God punish a gay person for what he is? Listen to any gay person and they'll tell you that this is the way they were born. Others might say that they lived a "straight" life, but just so happened to fall in love with a member of the same sex. How can God punish these people for the way he made them?

well no one can truly without a doubt say that 100 percent of gay people are born gay or choose to be gay....someone made a good point about if there was a genetic trait discovered that led to homosexuality, the far right would find a way to remove it or alter it prior to birth

its a bit tin foil hat-ish, but thats how people get sometime

[Schlosser85]

^ If the Christian Right could identify a gay fetus in the womb, they'd suddenly get abortions. Which is why I hope they never identify a gay gene.

[JewishHobbit]

Why would God fix your blindness, but allow countless babies and children to die of abandonment, starvation or abuse?

That number grows daily as well.

Many people go blind and never get their sight back. Instead of worrying about someone giving an explanation, wonder what made you so special that a god wanted you to see but not countless others see, hear, feel or live.

I have a couple thoughts on this. There was a time when I had absolute faith in prayer. If I prayed it, God would do it, provided it wasn't against what he wanted for me. I prayed at the time for healing nonstop, believing what I was praying... as the bible says we should (and how so few actually can). Again, not that people believe it, but a lot of christians have discovered how miraculous things can happen simply by praying with faith.

So it's not that God chose me to heal, but that he heard me, saw the level of my faith, and pretty much said "yeah, okay. Sure." The bible says something about how if we pray, believing God to heed our prayer, then the power of prayer will really begin to be seen. That's what was going on at the time. So it wasn't God intervening, it was him listening and answering prayer.

As for the babies dying of starvation, abuse, and abandonment... completely different scenerio. Here's my thoughts on God and dying children that people like bringing up so often.

So what?

I know that sounds crappy, but think about it from God's perspective for a moment.

We all die. No matter what happens, we all die. God isn't up there with lightening bolts just smiting babies while holding a beer and laughing it up with Zeus and Odin. Death happens, that's it. It just happens. God isn't doing the killing, in most occassions he isn't stopping the killing. It has nothing to do with God at all. He wont' deny us our decisions, no matter how crappy they might be. If someone decideds to hold a gun to his babies head and blow their brains out, that's horrible, but it's that man's decision.

But you know what? He's there for that child the moment it happens and suddenly she's better off and loved for all eternity. A few horrible months or years compared to God's love and perfection, no harm or fear or anything, for ever and ever. If it's such a small window, and the baby's going to die at some point anyway (potentially having chosen to NOT serve God by that point) then why not allow the horrible people's decisions to take the baby out of that horrible situation so that God can better love the child and care for it?

It's wierd really. But without believing in God, or if a person's just embittered by God because he isn't acting human like we think he should, it's hard to fathom. But I've never had any problem with this kind of stuff.

My sister-in-law and Brother had lost a baby at birth due to a nurse making a mistake a few months ago. They were both real bitter with God and I had to sit down with them and explain that God had nothing to do with it. It was the nurse and that's it. But while it's horrible for us that we lost our daughter and niece, that baby is perfectly fine and has never known a time of torment in her whole existance.

If anyone's read the book "The Shack" (I forget who wrote it) but it's huge right now, it actually does an amazing job detailing this type of thing. It's about a man who's 4-year old (I think) daughter is stolen while they were camping and brutally murdered, the body never found, only the blood and her dress. The Man eventually goes to the Shack where they found the blood and there finds God and the book is their conversation over who God is and why he would allow this to happen. It's really well done.

[Mystirious]

well no one can truly without a doubt say that 100 percent of gay people are born gay or choose to be gay....someone made a good point about if there was a genetic trait discovered that led to homosexuality, the far right would find a way to remove it or alter it prior to birth

its a bit tin foil hat-ish, but thats how people get sometime

It doesn't matter

No one, mortal or "Divine" has got the right to tell innocent people who are harming no one that what they are doing is "Wrong". That's why I find the concept of "Sin" such an evil idea.

And as for "Removing the gay gene"...never happen. Simply because genetic manipulation on that scale would never be legalised by any sane government

I have a couple thoughts on this. There was a time when I had absolute faith in prayer. If I prayed it, God would do it, provided it wasn't against what he wanted for me. I prayed at the time for healing nonstop, believing what I was praying... as the bible says we should (and how so few actually can). Again, not that people believe it, but a lot of christians have discovered how miraculous things can happen simply by praying with faith.

So it's not that God chose me to heal, but that he heard me, saw the level of my faith, and pretty much said "yeah, okay. Sure." The bible says something about how if we pray, believing God to heed our prayer, then the power of prayer will really begin to be seen. That's what was going on at the time. So it wasn't God intervening, it was him listening and answering prayer.

As for the babies dying of starvation, abuse, and abandonment... completely different scenerio. Here's my thoughts on God and dying children that people like bringing up so often.

So what?

I know that sounds crappy, but think about it from God's perspective for a moment.

We all die. No matter what happens, we all die. God isn't up there with lightening bolts just smiting babies while holding a beer and laughing it up with Zeus and Odin. Death happens, that's it. It just happens. God isn't doing the killing, in most occassions he isn't stopping the killing. It has nothing to do with God at all. He wont' deny us our decisions, no matter how crappy they might be. If someone decideds to hold a gun to his babies head and blow their brains out, that's horrible, but it's that man's decision.

But you know what? He's there for that child the moment it happens and suddenly she's better off and loved for all eternity. A few horrible months or years compared to God's love and perfection, no harm or fear or anything, for ever and ever. If it's such a small window, and the baby's going to die at some point anyway (potentially having chosen to NOT serve God by that point) then why not allow the horrible people's decisions to take the baby out of that horrible situation so that God can better love the child and care for it?

It's wierd really. But without believing in God, or if a person's just embittered by God because he isn't acting human like we think he should, it's hard to fathom. But I've never had any problem with this kind of stuff.

My sister-in-law and Brother had lost a baby at birth due to a nurse making a mistake a few months ago. They were both real bitter with God and I had to sit down with them and explain that God had nothing to do with it. It was the nurse and that's it. But while it's horrible for us that we lost our daughter and niece, that baby is perfectly fine and has never known a time of torment in her whole existance.

If anyone's read the book "The Shack" (I forget who wrote it) but it's huge right now, it actually does an amazing job detailing this type of thing. It's about a man who's 4-year old (I think) daughter is stolen while they were camping and brutally murdered, the body never found, only the blood and her dress. The Man eventually goes to the Shack where they found the blood and there finds God and the book is their conversation over who God is and why he would allow this to happen. It's really well done.

And that's why I have no time for organised religion

Because in my view either god doesn't exist making it needless, or god does exist...and he's not the kind of person I would ever want to worship

Put simply, if there is a God, I think a case can be made for him being a psychopath of the highest order. Especially if one takes the Old Testament as the truth...in which case he's a mass murderer on a scale that dwarfs Stalin or Hitler.

If you truly believe that God returned your sight you acknowledge that he WILL intervene to make some peoples lives better. Therefore the fact he does not do this for EVERYONE makes him, in my eyes, a monster. Literally, an abomination.

And if he exists I tell him that when I meet him

[BlackLantern]

And as for "Removing the gay gene"...never happen. Simply because genetic manipulation on that scale would never be legalised by any sane government

since when has that stopped the truly powerful?? we still torture, we still have rendition

[Mystirious]

Only for those hearing it second hand. It's a whole differant bag when you experience it yourself. Especially when the doctor himself says "God's the only way you're seeing right now because it certainly wasn't me". Yes, there's times when people experience 'miracles' or supernatural elements, only to find out that's not quite the case. But that's not all inclusive.

But again, I don't expect you to believe that. Without having experienced it, it's just all a bunch of rubbish and easily explained away in some scientific or medical method, not that you know how it would be, just that it MUST be because it's too out there to believe. I've heard that a lot, and if I tell people the details they can never give me more than an opinion on what MIGHT be the reason without being able to tell me why or how. It's just an excuse in the long run because they don't want it to be true.

My being able to see again after being blinded after the doctor said it had to be God... well I can honestly say that if someone proved that to be something, it wouldn't surprise me. It's the supernatural-ish stuff that's got me convinced. The blindness thing is just icing on the cake. And if someone could prove my stuff wrong, and there's a lot of it, that's just one person's experience, you have thousands and thousands more to continue proving as medical or scientific and the number grows daily.

No offence meant but all that talk of "Seeing angels and demons" sounds like proof of mental illness to me, not proof of god. As for "Hearing God" well...that sets off alarm bells in my head, as that sounds rath worryingly simmilar to the Son of Sam

As for your sight coming back, because something cannot be explained does not mean that it was "God"

Simply put, I want hard scientific evidence of his existence, backed up by experts and not "Believers" as obviously believers cannot be trusted to tell the truth on the matter

[Mystirious]

since when has that stopped the truly powerful?? we still torture, we still have rendition

Genetics is one of the most controversial sciences around. Just look at all the fuss made over cloning. There would be no way something like that would ever be legalised, thankfully. As it is a twisted, evil idea that only the truly sick and monstrous would ever consider seriously.

In fact I would go so far as to say that anyone who wanted to remove the "Gay gene" is a threat to humanity and should be locked away and/or executed

[Kelly]

BTW, I have no use for organized religion either....I don't need it to have a nice time of rest and meditation on Sunday. I take my dogs out, find a nice place on the beach, and enjoy my time clearing my mind, playing gospel music on my guitar and enjoying what I believe God created.

I don't need anyone else to believe the way I do, I'm doing just fine on my own.


But, I will say this, I grew up in the church, toured with a gospel singing group through College, spent every Summer of High School and College doing Christian Sports Camps, and not once did I ever hear anyone, pastors, etc....talk about the things you speak of...my friends that I have today that are still a strong part of organized religion I doubt have even thought in those terms.

My reason for not being a part of organized religion today is because the leadership has allowed the church to become far to political for my taste.

I will say this, when you constantly look for the wrong in people, you usually find it. AND, it is usually very easy to find the wrong in others because it is in our own lives as well, that is why we can see it in others so clearly.

[BlackLantern]

Genetics is one of the most controversial sciences around. Just look at all the fuss made over cloning. There would be no way something like that would ever be legalised, thankfully. As it is a twisted, evil idea that only the truly sick and monstrous would ever consider seriously.

no one can stop people from researching...I think we will see cloning in some shape or form (be it food or organs or something) in the next 50 years

but thats a conversation for another thread

[Marx]

How can God punish a gay person for what he is? Listen to any gay person and they'll tell you that this is the way they were born. Others might say that they lived a "straight" life, but just so happened to fall in love with a member of the same sex. How can God punish these people for the way he made them?

In my opinion, God would be ashamed by the actions of some of his followers.

[Kelly]

Very true...the carnal wins out in a lot of people.

[Kelly]

Very true...the carnal wins out in a lot of people.

[Mystirious]

Very true...the carnal wins out in a lot of people.

Nothing wrong with the carnal:woot:

I make it a rule to never repress any of my urges. I believe every appetite should be indulged with a complete lack of moderation

Eat, drink, make love, get high...personally I feel the world would be better if we all gave in to our every whim and desire

no one can stop people from researching...I think we will see cloning in some shape or form (be it food or organs or something) in the next 50 years

but thats a conversation for another thread

I can think of a lot of ways to stop them from researching actually


I will say this, when you constantly look for the wrong in people, you usually find it.

This is because people, in general, are awful. Speaking honestly, I resent being born onto this planet

[Mystirious]

In my opinion, God would be ashamed by the actions of some of his followers.

In my opinion only a bad workman blames his tools.

If God doesn't like the way the world is he should DO something about it. According to the Bible he has the power to do so.

God isn't ashamed. God doesn't love us. God doesn't care. And I don't care about God in return

[Marx]

In my opinion only a bad workman blames his tools.

If God doesn't like the way the world is he should DO something about it. According to the Bible he has the power to do so.

God isn't ashamed. God doesn't love us. God doesn't care. And I don't care about God in return

Well...you certainly have a right to your opinion.

[BlackLantern]

I make it a rule to never repress any of my urges. I believe every appetite should be indulged with a complete lack of moderation

this^ contradicts this down here

I can think of a lot of ways to stop them from researching actually

Scientists (whatever field it may be) have an urge to discover, to reasearch, to learn...now one has to balance the urge to discover with ethics

yes, you can do this but should you?? that's what every scientist or researcher should always ask themselves

[Mystirious]

Well...you certainly have a right to your opinion.

I like to think of it as the Church of God the Utterly Indifferent

People want to believe there's some omnipotent father figure sitting in the sky wagging his finger at us when we do bad and patting us on the head when we do good. I believe that if God is a "Father" then he's a deadbeat one

Millions of years and the planet is still a dump. I'd call that poor work on his/her/it's part

[JewishHobbit]

How can God punish a gay person for what he is? Listen to any gay person and they'll tell you that this is the way they were born. Others might say that they lived a "straight" life, but just so happened to fall in love with a member of the same sex. How can God punish these people for the way he made them?

Heh, I could be a prune here and go with Misterious's mentality that no one can prove homosexuals were born that way and until someone can prove it without a shadow of a doubt, I don't believe it.... but I don't really care about whether or not people are born that way in the slightest.

The following is my personal opinion, but it's just that, my opinion.

God did not create humanity homosexual, he created us heterosexual. Adam and Eve were heterosexual, and that's what God created. Further biblical evidence is his commandment for us to go forth and multiply, fill the earth. Homosexuals cannot do this. If homosexuality was a natural given way of life, it'd counter God's directives.

However, it is possible that nowadays people are born homosexual (I can't say I'm completely convinced but it could be true). It does'nt mean God made them that way, only that that was a sin they were born into... as there are sins people can be born into. It's no differant than the lusts most everyone are born into as well. Or the mechanics of lying to save yourself. Or rebelious nature.

They're all sins born to us or that we pick up early on in life, all due not to God's design, but by the fall of Man. So yes, it's possible that people are born homosexual, but I do not believe it is by God's design at all. He loves homosexuals like he loves all the rest of us, but he hates the sin itself, like he hates the sins of all the rest of us.

That's my personal opinion on the matter.

[mrvlknight21]

In my opinion only a bad workman blames his tools.

If God doesn't like the way the world is he should DO something about it. According to the Bible he has the power to do so.

God isn't ashamed. God doesn't love us. God doesn't care. And I don't care about God in return

Well in this case, the "tools", if we are referring to people, are given free will, so that argument doesnt make a lot of sense here.
Yes, if a carpenter blames a hammer, then it appears the carpenter may be at fault, but when you allow people do choose their own actions, then how can those people's creator be held responsible? They made their own choice to do right or wrong.

[Marx]

I still find it interesting that the church seems to 'rank' the sins. It's ok for a priest to abuse an innocent child. It's ok to be an adulterer. It's ok to lie. It's ok to be a murderer...but being gay is 'unforgivable'.

I've said this many times - God is alot more accepting than some of his followers are willing to admit.

[Mystirious]

God did not create humanity homosexual

Prove it

, he created us heterosexual

Prove it

. Adam and Eve were heterosexual

Prove it


Homosexuals cannot do this.


Yes we can. Medical science makes it easy for gay couples to have children.

If homosexuality was a natural given way of life, it'd counter God's directives.

There is zero proof that God is for or against homosexuality

. Or rebelious nature.

A rebellious nature is not a sin. it's a highly positive thing

He loves homosexuals like he loves all the rest of us, but he hates the sin itself, like he hates the sins of all the rest of us.

That's my personal opinion on the matter.

No offence but I long for the day when no one on this planet holds opinions like that

[JewishHobbit]

I like to think of it as the Church of God the Utterly Indifferent

People want to believe there's some omnipotent father figure sitting in the sky wagging his finger at us when we do bad and patting us on the head when we do good. I believe that if God is a "Father" then he's a deadbeat one

Millions of years and the planet is still a dump. I'd call that poor work on his/her/it's part

Actually, the Bible tell us that the world is decaying until the end when it's pretty much crap and then it'll be remade. God's not controling the world, humanity is, and we'll eventually drive it into the ground. That's biblical... so you actually pointed out a biblical belief and obviously see it as true. ;)

Though I do think it's funny that to you, a deadbeat father is someone who gets on a child for doing wrong but rewards them for doing good. That's the direct opposite of a deadbeat father. Trust me, I've had two deadbeat fathers in my life.

[mrvlknight21]

I still find it interesting that the church seems to 'rank' the sins. It's ok for a priest to abuse an innocent child. It's ok to be an adulterer. It's ok to lie. It's ok to be a murderer...but being gay is 'unforgivable'.

I've said this many times - God is alot more accepting than some of his followers are willing to admit.

I know you didnt mean "rank" them literally, but I have never heard the type of statements that you just mentioned. Obviously it isnt just "ok" for anyone to do the above listed things. They all require forgiveness, no different than stealing, cheating, etc.
I also agree with your last statement, though.

[mrvlknight21]

Yes we can. Medical science makes it easy for gay couples to have children.


:huh:
Are you referring to artificial insemination? That would be for lesbian couples only and that would not actually be their (both) biological child.

[Mystirious]

I know you didnt mean "rank" them literally, but I have never heard the type of statements that you just mentioned. Obviously it isnt just "ok" for anyone to do the above listed things. They all require forgiveness, no different than stealing, cheating, etc.
I also agree with your last statement, though.


Being gay does not require "Forgiveness" because there is nothing wrong with being LGBT whatsoever

[JewishHobbit]

I know you didnt mean "rank" them literally, but I have never heard the type of statements that you just mentioned. Obviously it isnt just "ok" for anyone to do the above listed things. They all require forgiveness, no different than stealing, cheating, etc.
I also agree with your last statement, though.

Yeah, I've never met a christian who ranks sins. I do know some people who focus on certain sins more than others but I've never met one who believes some are better than others. They're all equally bad. Jesus himself said that they're all equal.

[JewishHobbit]

Being gay does not require "Forgiveness" because there is nothing wrong with being LGBT whatsoever

You're entitled to your opinion on the matter.

[Marx]

I know you didnt mean "rank" them literally, but I have never heard the type of statements that you just mentioned. Obviously it isnt just "ok" for anyone to do the above listed things. They all require forgiveness, no different than stealing, cheating, etc.
I also agree with your last statement, though.

Priests are moved all the time in the fallout of an abuse scandal. (Instead of confronting the issue.)

Rank them literally? No...but there are certain sins that the church skewers more so than others...despite 'all sins being equal'. Being gay is the only one that is 'unforgivable'...that is, unless you deny who you are. Then all is well. It's ridiculous man.

[Mystirious]

Actually, the Bible tell us that the world is decaying until the end when it's pretty much crap and then it'll be remade. God's not controling the world, humanity is, and we'll eventually drive it into the ground. That's biblical... so you actually pointed out a biblical belief and obviously see it as true

I don't believe one single word of the Bible to be true

The world is "Decaying" because we are a vile, worthless species. it will not be remade. We will destroy this planet and ourselves along with it and no one will shed a tear when we're all dead.

I hope it happens in my lifetime. I want to see it all come crashing down. I do hope that it'll be quite spectacular.

:huh:
Are you referring to artificial insemination? That would be for lesbian couples only and that would not actually be their (both) biological child.

Yes I was.

There is also the option of a surrogate as well. And it does not matter what the child is biologically. Genetics are not what makes a child your own.

People who adopt are not the childs bio-parents. But I'm sure they'd have some choice words for you if you were to say they weren't its REAL parents.

[mrvlknight21]

Being gay does not require "Forgiveness" because there is nothing wrong with being LGBT whatsoever

I wasnt even referring to that. I was talking about the list of sins that Marx mentioned.

They're all equally bad. Jesus himself said that they're all equal.

Correct and if a Christian is saying that one is worse in God's eyes, they have some reading to do.

[Mystirious]

You're entitled to your opinion on the matter.

It's not opinion. it's fact.

Something is only wrong if it does someone harm. Being LGBT does no one any harm. Therefore it is not wrong.

[Kelly]

I still find it interesting that the church seems to 'rank' the sins. It's ok for a priest to abuse an innocent child. It's ok to be an adulterer. It's ok to lie. It's ok to be a murderer...but being gay is 'unforgivable'.

I've said this many times - God is alot more accepting than some of his followers are willing to admit.

Sin as defined in the Bible is anything that separates you from God. There is no ranking in that, but yes the church does rank sins from bad to the worst, etc. As does society, simply because some sins as in murder, etc, simply have worse consequences.

As far as "the church" sayings its ok for a priest to abuse an innocent child or adulterer...you need to be more specific IMO.

The Catholic Church, yes has turned a blind eye to these things....but that is not all churches, nor is it all churchgoers.

My pastor friend would find it hard not strangling someone that abused an innocent child. He could restrain himself, but he certainly would not say that it is ok. As far as adultery, again yes the church (pretty much all denominations) has turned a blind eye to its leadership in this area....but the Church as a whole does not believe that the actions of this leadership was right...

BUT, these are some of the reasons why I do not belong to organized Religion any longer, as well as the political pressure that they now weld.

[mrvlknight21]

Priests are moved all the time in the fallout of an abuse scandal. (Instead of confronting the issue.)

Rank them literally? No...but there are certain sins that the church skewers more so than others...despite 'all sins being equal'. Being gay is the only one that is 'unforgivable'...that is, unless you deny who you are. Then all is well. It's ridiculous man.

Yeah, dont get me started on the Catholic church/molestation scandal. To be clear, I was referring to my own personal experience in churches and Christian schools. I was ALWAYS taught that all sins are equal.


Yes I was.

There is also the option of a surrogate as well. And it does not matter what the child is biologically. Genetics are not what makes a child your own.

People who adopt are not the childs bio-parents. But I'm sure they'd have some choice words for you if you were to say they weren't its REAL parents.

Yes, surrogate and insemination would be options for gay couples to be parents. But, what I think Jewish Hobbit was referring to was the birth/biological parents (go back to see what he said). Which is why I chimed in with what I said.
There are plenty of people who are way better parents to certain children than their own biological ones. But again, see what I was referring to in this particular conversation.

[Mystirious]

Priests are moved all the time in the fallout of an abuse scandal. (Instead of confronting the issue.)

Precisely. A pack of worthless hypocrites

[JewishHobbit]

And that's why I have no time for organised religion

Because in my view either god doesn't exist making it needless, or god does exist...and he's not the kind of person I would ever want to worship

Put simply, if there is a God, I think a case can be made for him being a psychopath of the highest order. Especially if one takes the Old Testament as the truth...in which case he's a mass murderer on a scale that dwarfs Stalin or Hitler.

If you truly believe that God returned your sight you acknowledge that he WILL intervene to make some peoples lives better. Therefore the fact he does not do this for EVERYONE makes him, in my eyes, a monster. Literally, an abomination.

And if he exists I tell him that when I meet him

I know it's insensitive and probably unGodly, but I can't help but to laugh when I hear people say this type of thing. People who talk like this look at God like, if he exists, he must be a human, or equal to a human, which isn't the case. But if God doesn't act human and do what I would do, then he's evil, and he'll listen to what I have to say about it. It's like you have some kind of control over God, which is funny.

Biblically, he wont' hear a word you have to say because you'll bow the moment you see him. And I guess that's why I laugh. Again, it's not very Godly of me, but when I hear people say stuff like this over and over again with all the cockiness of humanity, the idea of them being humbled in the end is humorous to me.

Heh, I remember this guy I used to work with once. He was a decent guy. But one day me and another guy was talking about God. He chimes in like he's some expert in the area talking about how evil God is. We both looked at each other and laughed over how silly it was. The guy got ticked off but we didn't care.

Personally, to me, it's like an ant demanding a human to do what ants do. How dare we not supply food for them, and when we step on them, or run over them with our bicycles, then we are evil... and one day they're going to tell us all about it!

Sorry, I know it's insensative, but I find it hilarious.

[JewishHobbit]

It's not opinion. it's fact.


Just for fun, I'm going to play a little devil's advocate.

Prove that homosexuals are born that way. I'm not against the idea, but I'd like to see you prove it as fact.

[JewishHobbit]

I don't believe one single word of the Bible to be true

The world is "Decaying" because we are a vile, worthless species. it will not be remade. We will destroy this planet and ourselves along with it and no one will shed a tear when we're all dead.

I hope it happens in my lifetime. I want to see it all come crashing down. I do hope that it'll be quite spectacular.

That's your opinion on the matter.

And let me ask, do you like being so doom and gloom? Or is it one of those "I hate me and I want everyone else to hate everything as well" type of mentalities.

[Marx]

Sin as defined in the Bible is anything that separates you from God. There is no ranking in that, but yes the church does rank sins from bad to the worst, etc. As does society, simply because some sins as in murder, etc, simply have worse consequences.

As far as "the church" sayings its ok for a priest to abuse an innocent child or adulterer...you need to be more specific IMO.

The Catholic Church, yes has turned a blind eye to these things....but that is not all churches, nor is it all churchgoers.

My pastor friend would find it hard not strangling someone that abused an innocent child. He could restrain himself, but he certainly would not say that it is ok. As far as adultery, again yes the church (pretty much all denominations) has turned a blind eye to its leadership in this area....but the Church as a whole does not believe that the actions of this leadership was right...

BUT, these are some of the reasons why I do not belong to organized Religion any longer, as well as the political pressure that they now weld.
The Catholic Church is the one I am referring to. I have made it clear many times on this board that I do not make blanket statements. I have always said that I believe 'some of the followers' are the problem. Not all.

Yeah, dont get me started on the Catholic church/molestation scandal. To be clear, I was referring to my own personal experience in churches and Christian schools. I was ALWAYS taught that all sins are equal.

I have no doubts of that man. You seem to be a very open-minded person.

[Mystirious]

Biblically, he wont' hear a word you have to say because you'll bow the moment you see him.

And I have to laugh, long and loud at this. I don't bow for ANYONE

Heh, I remember this guy I used to work with once. He was a decent guy. But one day me and another guy was talking about God. He chimes in like he's some expert in the area talking about how evil God is. We both looked at each other and laughed over how silly it was. The guy got ticked off but we didn't care.

I don't blame him for being ticked off and if it had been me I probably would have done more than got "Ticked off"

Sorry, I know it's insensative, but I find it hilarious.

I find your belief that homosexuality is "Sinful" quite laughable and ridiculous as well.

And there's no "A" in insensitive.

[BlackLantern]

I don't think Mys hates everything, I just think Mys can be a little extreme sometimes

I also think legal recognition and social acceptance can get muddled with Mys points of view

[mrvlknight21]

And let me ask, do you like being so doom and gloom? Or is it one of those "I hate me and I want everyone else to hate everything as well" type of mentalities.

I was wondering something similar to this myself.

[Marx]

Just for fun, I'm going to play a little devil's advocate.

Prove that homosexuals are born that way. I'm not against the idea, but I'd like to see you prove it as fact.
Did you choose to be straight?

I realize you're playing devil's advocate...but I would encourage you to ask any gay person if they chose to be gay.

[mrvlknight21]

T

I have no doubts of that man. You seem to be a very open-minded person.

I try to be. I have beliefs, but I always like to at least hear the other side. Then I can make up my mind about things....which could change again later, it just really depends.

And I have to laugh, long and loud at this. I don't bow for ANYONE
.

Wow. :dry:

[mrvlknight21]

Did you choose to be straight?

I realize you're playing devil's advocate...but I would encourage you to ask any gay person if they chose to be gay.

I think he did that because one of Mystirious' posts said "prove it" like 4 times. Essentially, he was just offering the same opposition (in my opinion).

[JewishHobbit]

And I have to laugh, long and loud at this. I don't bow for ANYONE

If the bible turns out accurate, you won't have a choice. Even the anti-christ, the false prophet, and satan himself will bow. Nothing to worry about if it turns out wrong, but I believe it to be true so it's a fun thought for me.

I don't blame him for being ticked off and if it had been me I probably would have done more than got "Ticked off"

I don't know why but in person I see you being all talk :)

I find your belief that homosexuality is "Sinful" quite laughable and ridiculous as well.

As you are entitled.

And there's no "A" in insensitive.

Heh, I thought you were trying to make some deep point, like "No I in Team" but then I realized you were just correcting my spelling :)

Yeah, I'm not the best at spelling.

[Marx]

I try to be. I have beliefs, but I always like to at least hear the other side. Then I can make up my mind about things....which could change again later, it just really depends.
That's all anyone can ask. :up:

I think he did that because one of Mystirious' posts said "prove it" like 4 times. Essentially, he was just offering the same opposition (in my opinion).

Oh. http://forums.superherohype.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

[Mystirious]

That's your opinion on the matter.

And let me ask, do you like being so doom and gloom? Or is it one of those "I hate me and I want everyone else to hate everything as well" type of mentalities.

"Doom and gloom"? Are you kidding?

The end of the world is cause for celebration. I'll never have to worry about student loan payments again :woot:


Just for fun, I'm going to play a little devil's advocate.

Prove that homosexuals are born that way. I'm not against the idea, but I'd like to see you prove it as fact.

Gladly.

Homosexuals are routinely persecuted by people, religion and government. We are verball, physically and emotionally assaulted. Our parents often disown us. We are beaten, killed and during the 60s we were imrpisoned simply for loving another.

In some countries we are stoned to death for what we are.

Tell me: Do you honestly think ANYONE would choose this life, given how much we suffer because of it?

And as another poster stated: Prove to me that you were born straight.

[Mystirious]

Wow. :dry:


Why that reaction? Why should I bow to him?


I don't think Mys hates everything, I just think Mys can be a little extreme sometimes

I don't see extreme as a bad thing

I also think legal recognition and social acceptance can get muddled with Mys points of view


I don't care about "Social acceptance" I simply want equal rights for those who are LGBT and I want those against us silenced by the law. And punished. Severely.

[Marx]

I don't see extreme as a bad thing.
I do.



I don't care about "Social acceptance" I simply want equal rights for those who are LGBT and I want those against us silenced by the law. And punished. Severely.

That makes you no different from those who oppose you. The ones that you condemn so vigorously.

[JewishHobbit]

"Doom and gloom"? Are you kidding?

The end of the world is cause for celebration. I'll never have to worry about student loan payments again :woot:

Now imagine that the end comes and not only do you have no loan payment, but life continues and everything is pretty cool :) Much nicer thought!

Gladly.

Homosexuals are routinely persecuted by people, religion and government. We are verball, physically and emotionally assaulted. Our parents often disown us. We are beaten, killed and during the 60s we were imrpisoned simply for loving another.

In some countries we are stoned to death for what we are.

Tell me: Do you honestly think ANYONE would choose this life, given how much we suffer because of it?

Well that's not proof at all. There are tons of christians (for example) who choose their lifestyle in places that persecute and kill for it. This happens to this day in places around the world. You can choose a hard life. I'm still waiting on the facts that make it true.

And as another poster stated: Prove to me that you were born straight.

I don't really care one way or the other if someone is born straight or gay, and I don't claim that either way happens. I have my beliefs on how gay people can be born that way, but it's just theory. If you're so adamant that it's fact that people are born gay, I'd like to hear it.

I guess it can be argued like how you said God can't be proven so until he can be, then you don't believe it... even if I think it's silly. You don't experience the religious experiences so it's not real to you, and won't be until proven otherwise.

By your logic, if I so choose, I can say that until someone can prove to me that homosexuals are born homosexual, then I don't believe it. I don't experience homosexuality, so it's not real to me, so I wont' believe it isn't a choice until otherwise proven.

And if someone does have that mindset (not saying I do) then you have no standing to belittle or call them bigot or anything of the sort, because you're just the same toward religion.


And for argument's sake... I can't prove that I was born straight. I assume I was because I currently am, but I don't know. As far as I know, at a young age I saw a pretty girl (and everyone will admit to seeing beauty in both men and women, even if you are or aren't attracted to them sexually) and decided that she's what I liked, and it stuck. I don't know. But then, I'm not the one saying that it's fact people are born heterosexual. You're stating fact about homosexual when there isn't any that I'm aware of. So I'm asking you to prove it :)

Again, I don't really care one way or the other. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

[BlackLantern]

I don't care about "Social acceptance" I simply want equal rights for those who are LGBT

most everyone here agrees with you

and I want those against us silenced by the law. And punished. Severely.

it doesn't work that way....people are always going to be ignorant and hateful, the best any of us rational people can do is thrive to spite them....let them stew in their little world as it shrinks around them

as a black man, there are places in my own town ( I live in the northeast by the way) that Im not welcome because of the color of my skin and there are people that will never accept me

[Mystirious]

That makes you no different from those who oppose you. The ones that you condemn so vigorously.

How does wanting there to be laws against persecution and harassment of innocent people based on their sexuality make me as bad as the bigots?


it doesn't work that way....people are always going to be ignorant and hateful, the best any of us rational people can do is thrive to spite them....let them stew in their little world as it shrinks around them

Why should we have to put up with such things?

as a black man, there are places in my own town ( I live in the northeast by the way) that Im not welcome because of the color of my skin and there are people that will never accept me

Good god that's awful. :csad:


Now imagine that the end comes and not only do you have no loan payment, but life continues and everything is pretty cool :) Much nicer thought!




Not really. Not if I have to share the afterlife with hateful bigoted *** holes out there.

Besides, Heaven has always sounded so...boring to me. No "vice"? No "Sin"? How tedious

[JewishHobbit]

As far as adultery, again yes the church (pretty much all denominations) has turned a blind eye to its leadership in this area....but the Church as a whole does not believe that the actions of this leadership was right...

Wow, really? What churches are you talking about? Every pastor that I've ever met who had sex outside of marrage were removed from their post and forced into counceling. My former pastor, the pastor of the largest church in my area, a youth pastor friend of mine, quite a few more.

I have a lot of connections within the church and I've never known anyone to turn a blind eye to a pastor committing adultry. It pretty much destroys their career every time.

[mrvlknight21]

"Doom and gloom"? Are you kidding?

The end of the world is cause for celebration. I'll never have to worry about student loan payments again :woot:




Gladly.

Homosexuals are routinely persecuted by people, religion and government. We are verball, physically and emotionally assaulted. Our parents often disown us. We are beaten, killed and during the 60s we were imrpisoned simply for loving another.

In some countries we are stoned to death for what we are.

Tell me: Do you honestly think ANYONE would choose this life, given how much we suffer because of it?

And as another poster stated: Prove to me that you were born straight.

I have to say, that first part was actually funny and made me think maybe you arent all doom and gloom for the first time. So kudos to you for that one. :yay:

As far as the second thing, the proof. Thats not proof. Everyday people CHOOSE to engage in behavior which can and often does cause them and their families hardship/pain/etc etc etc. People choose to use illegal drugs which may feel good to them at the time, but often lead to jail time, sickness and death. Same thing for all criminal behavior. In fact, I often wonder WHY in the world would anyone do _______, when it obviously could lead to ____________.

JUST TO BE CLEAR-I am not saying any gay/bi/whatever lifestyle is a crime. All I am saying is that EVERYDAY people choose to take risks/engage in behavior that could cause them similar circumstances as you mentioned above.

[JewishHobbit]

Not really. Not if I have to share the afterlife with hateful bigoted *** holes out there.

Besides, Heaven has always sounded so...boring to me. No "vice"? No "Sin"? How tedious

There would be no sin, so there'd be no bigotry. But if you want to live life with crappiness, then hey, enjoy your meager 70-some years. I'll think fondly of you in 348,302,288,408,932.04 years while sitting along a nice river bank taking in the beautiful sounds of the birds chirping in the morning, carefree, with my kids, wife, grandparents, great grandparents, Abraham Lincoln, and Moses.

[BlackLantern]

How does wanting there to be laws against persecution and harassment of innocent people based on their sexuality make me as bad as the bigots?

Harassment is illegal, regardless of gender race or whatever....but if some jackass wants to stand on public property with a sign that says "God Hates F$%S" its his right (as guaranteeed in the Constitution) to do so...if he starts throwing things at people, then yes thats harassment

Why should we have to put up with such things?

because people are imperfect and eventually it will hit them, they can quote the bible and have all the tea parties they want, but eventually they will realize that the world has passed them by and then they will realize they don't have anything

Good god that's awful. :csad:

but I don't sweat it, because there is nothing those little people can do to stop me from doing the things I want to do

[wiegeabo]

but I don't sweat it, because there is nothing those little people can do to stop me from doing the things I want to do

:up:

I like that attitude.

"**** you, we don't serve your kind!"

"Oh, you don't? Well then, I'll just take all my money and spend it over there. That why I don't have to worry about helping to keep you in business."

[Mystirious]

I have to say, that first part was actually funny and made me think maybe you arent all doom and gloom for the first time. So kudos to you for that one. :yay:

Well glad to hear that

Honestly, I really am not "Doom and gloom". I am a nihilist, yes. I don't really like the world or the way society is. But I've learned how to look on the funny side.

And really, the state of the world is goddamn hillarious

There would be no sin, so there'd be no bigotry. But if you want to live life with crappiness, then hey, enjoy your meager 70-some years. I'll think fondly of you in 348,302,288,408,932.04 years while sitting along a nice river bank taking in the beautiful sounds of the birds chirping in the morning, carefree, with my kids, wife, grandparents, great grandparents, Abraham Lincoln, and Moses.

When I said "Sin" I was speaking about what the church rather bizzarely labels as a sin. Mainly all the sex and drugs

Frankly I don't want to live in a world without it

[Schlosser85]

Mystirious, we're philosophically on the same side, but you need to calm down.

In the first place, no one currently posting in this thread is a vicious mouth-foaming homophobe, so you don't need to be so angry 24/7.

Something that some gay activists, some black activists, and some feminists all get wrong is that being passionate about your cause and proud of your identity doesn't mean you need to be yelling and screaming all the time and giving attitude to everyone around you. It just makes people get tired very quickly of listening to what you're saying, whether they're against the actual basic underlying meaning of your words or not.

And lastly, saying you want people who oppose LGBT rights silenced, and punished severely makes you a hypocrite. The door has to swing both ways, or it doesn't swing at all. If you want equal rights for LGBT people, you have to accept that the opposition also has equality. That's what equality means. You all have the same rights, you have the right to say what you think, and they have the right to say what they think. As you have mentioned yourself, there was a time when gay people could be thrown in prison or mental institutions and given shock treatment, for being gay. Turning around and doing the same to homophobes makes you no better than they are, and we need to be better.

The best way to discredit homophobes is to let them speak and expose themselves as hypocritical, hate-filled, scared, and ridiculous.

And just to clarify, to members like JewishHobbit who believe homosexuality is a sin, I'm not referring to you, I'm referring to the truly hateful homophobes out there.

[Mystirious]

Harassment is illegal, regardless of gender race or whatever....but if some jackass wants to stand on public property with a sign that says "God Hates F$%S" its his right (as guaranteeed in the Constitution) to do so...if he starts throwing things at people, then yes thats harassment

Well actually, it's not his right here in the UK. And I'd like it to be illegal the world over.

But I was mainly talking about things like how a prom was cancelled just because a lesbian couple wished to attend, or Prop 8 or a dozen other instances. I'm not talking about the nuts on street corners, I'm talking about harassment at a higher level

because people are imperfect and eventually it will hit them, they can quote the bible and have all the tea parties they want, but eventually they will realize that the world has passed them by and then they will realize they don't have anything

I wish I could be so calm about it all

but I don't sweat it, because there is nothing those little people can do to stop me from doing the things I want to do

Perhaps that's why I feel differently to you. There IS something these "People" can do to intfere in me, and others like me living the lives we want to lead.

[Anjow1060]

some one give me a 5 sentence cliff notes of where we're at in this thread so I can re-join the discussion. I don't want to re-read 300 pages of long rants reiterating the same point.

lol

- Jow

[BlackLantern]

:up:

I like that attitude.

"**** you, we don't serve your kind!"

"Oh, you don't? Well then, I'll just take all my money and spend it over there. That why I don't have to worry about helping to keep you in business."

haha...reminds me of something that happened a few years ago...there used to be this ****** dive bar about 5 minutes from my apartment....rough place and basically if you weren't white, you didn't go there....period....so about 4 years ago, the owner died of a heart attack and it closed because he essentially had run it almost into the ground

so about a year later, a married couple buys the place....guts it and turned it in to a nice neighborhood type place...the new owners made it very clear that the old crowd was not welcome there

[mrvlknight21]

Mystirious, we're philosophically on the same side, but you need to calm down.

In the first place, no one currently posting in this thread is a vicious mouth-foaming homophobe, so you don't need to be so angry 24/7.

Something that some gay activists, some black activists, and some feminists all get wrong is that being passionate about your cause and proud of your identity doesn't mean you need to be yelling and screaming all the time and giving attitude to everyone around you. It just makes people get tired very quickly of listening to what you're saying, whether they're against the actual basic underlying meaning of your words or not.

And lastly, saying you want people who oppose LGBT rights silenced, and punished severely makes you a hypocrite. The door has to swing both ways, or it doesn't swing at all. If you want equal rights for LGBT people, you have to accept that the opposition also has equality. That's what equality means. You all have the same rights, you have the right to say what you think, and they have the right to say what they think. As you have mentioned yourself, there was a time when gay people could be thrown in prison or mental institutions and given shock treatment, for being gay. Turning around and doing the same to homophobes makes you no better than they are, and we need to be better.

The best way to discredit homophobes is to let them speak and expose themselves as hypocritical, hate-filled, scared, and ridiculous.

And just to clarify, to members like JewishHobbit who believe homosexuality is a sin, I'm not referring to you, I'm referring to the truly hateful homophobes out there.

I appreciate you re-explaining this. This has been explained to Mystirious a few times in the past day or so. I sincerely hope that she begins to understand this.

[Mystirious]

The best way to discredit homophobes is to let them speak and expose themselves as hypocritical, hate-filled, scared, and ridiculous.

Except we've been doing that for decades and things haven't gotten any better with that approach

We still can't marry. We are still persecuted and harrassed on multiple levels

[Mystirious]

haha...reminds me of something that happened a few years ago...there used to be this ****** dive bar about 5 minutes from my apartment....rough place and basically if you weren't white, you didn't go there....period....so about 4 years ago, the owner died of a heart attack and it closed because he essentially had run it almost into the ground

Now that IS hillarious:woot:

so about a year later, a married couple buys the place....guts it and turned it in to a nice neighborhood type place...the new owners made it very clear that the old crowd was not welcome there

And that's even funnier. Good show.

[mrvlknight21]

Well glad to hear that

Honestly, I really am not "Doom and gloom". I am a nihilist, yes. I don't really like the world or the way society is. But I've learned how to look on the funny side.

And really, the state of the world is goddamn hillarious


Any response to what I said about your proof?

[BlackLantern]

Well actually, it's not his right here in the UK. And I'd like it to be illegal the world over.

what are the actual rules on protests/demonstrations in the UK?? I know its off topic, but I am genuinely curious

[Mystirious]

what are the actual rules on protests/demonstrations in the UK?? I know its off topic, but I am genuinely curious

My knowledge is far from complete on the subject so I am afraid I couldn't tell you with complete accuracy

I do however know that there are hate speech laws against the type of thing you described in your earlier post