Post-Crisis or Pre-Crisis

[Thomas Wayne]

Haven't seen a thread anywhere covering this topic. With the possibility of a reboot I would like to know what others thoughts are on this subject.

I voted for Post-Crisis with Clark being the main identity.

[Ita-KalEl]

What Crisis? :woot:
Because in the DC Universe there is one every year...

[FilmNerdJamie]

Not to be a smart-ass, but I'd say Post-Crisis with Superman as the main identity.

[SuperDaniel]

Post-Crisis with BOTH being the real identity and desguise at the same time.

[Thomas Wayne]

Not to be a smart-ass, but I'd say Post-Crisis with Superman as the main identity.

Dude, below your name it says Grade A Smartass.:woot:

[Super-Bats]

umm...forgive my ignorance.....but what EXACTLY is Pre-Crisis / Post-Crisis??

I'll admit I'm not much of a comic book reader......and these terms have always confused me.......:(

[FilmNerdJamie]

Dude, below your name it says Grade A Smartass.:woot:

It's called sarcasm.

[Thomas Wayne]

^ I know hence the :woot:.

[Thomas Wayne]

umm...forgive my ignorance.....but what EXACTLY is Pre-Crisis / Post-Crisis??

I'll admit I'm not much of a comic book reader......and these terms have always confused me.......:(

Post Crisis they changed a few things, and among others changed from Evil Scientist Lex to Coporate Lex and Clark being the true person deep down inside Kal-El instead of Superman like we had with the Donner movies.

[Super-Bats]

ahh...I see.....thanks!

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Post-Crisis.

[SuperDaniel]

A mix of both, IMO.

[Oriin]

Post-Crisis.

Pre-Crisis Supes could basically pull powers out of his ass for any given situation.

[Deaths Head II]

Post-Crisis.

We have the Donner films for Pre-Crisis Supes.

[Timstuff]

Post Crisis. This isn't 1978, people!

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Post-Crisis.

We have the Donner films for Pre-Crisis Supes.Thankyou. Lets just see something new.

[GreenKToo]

post.

[The Guard]

There's absolutely no reason the character couldn't have elements of both.

[hippie_hunter]

Primarily post-COIE, but I see no reason why some pre-COIE elements cannot be added in.

[batman44]

You can take influences from both, but I would mainly take from post crisis.

[I Am The Knight]

umm...forgive my ignorance.....but what EXACTLY is Pre-Crisis / Post-Crisis??

I'll admit I'm not much of a comic book reader......and these terms have always confused me.......:(

**Slaps**

There's absolutely no reason the character couldn't have elements of both.

Bingo.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I've already had enough of PreCrisis Superman so I say hardcore PostCrisis.

[I Am The Knight]

They should definitely focus on Post-Crisis, yeah.

[The Sage]

So is this for Post-Crisis or Pre-Crisis, or is this about Superman or Clark Kent being the real person? :huh:

[mego joe]

Post-Crisis with BOTH being the real identity and desguise at the same time.

Make that two!

[mego joe]

Primarily post-COIE, but I see no reason why some pre-COIE elements cannot be added in.

Ditto, much like the current comics are doing.

[The Batman]

i dont know why both cant be done, and i dont see how people forget about lois and clark and TAS as examples of post crisis supes in the media

[Kurosawa]

Pre-Crisis all the way. It's the Post-Crisis version that is the castrated version, the lame farmboy that DC has stressed for 20+years is inferior to Batman. It's the Post-Crisis version that runs home to his momma everytime things tough. It's not even the powers. Limiting Supes' power level is ok but taking away his confidence, his drive, his maturity and his place as the world's first and greatest hero is what has destroyed Superman's popularity.

[Timstuff]

umm...forgive my ignorance.....but what EXACTLY is Pre-Crisis / Post-Crisis??

I'll admit I'm not much of a comic book reader......and these terms have always confused me.......:(

**Slaps**

Now that was not very hospitable. Believe it or not there was a time when I didn't know what the term "crisis" meant. :o

Okay Super-Bats, I'll break it down for ya: basically, during the 1980s DC did a massive retcon (an alteration of official story canon) of the DC Universe. This was accomplished through a massive story arc called "The Crisis of Infinite Earths," and it was named as such because at that time, there were alternate dimensions which had different versions of each character. The goal of the Crisis arc was to stream line the continuity of the DC Universe and make things less confusing by eliminating the multiple earths and establishing the continuity that would follow for the next 10 of 15 years.

Ironically enough, the Crisis arc still left a lot of things jumbled and confusing, so DC would eventually go through a few subsequent "crisis" type events to further retcon and define continuity. These events, which included the relaunching of several comics (including Superman) altered certain aspects of their character. In the case of Superman, it resulted in him having drastically scaled back levels of power, and it also re-defined the nature of his dual identities.

The main difference between pre-crisis and post-crisis Superman is how he relates to the reader. Pre-Crisis Superman was almost like a greek god, where his feats became large scale to the point of ridiculousness, like throwing planets through space (not unlike how in SR, he lifts a moon-sized sphere of Kryptonite out of the ocean and into space). He was fairly impersonal, often personified as a perfect being who is high above the rest of the human race. He was first and foremost Kal-El, earth's Kryptonian protector sent by Jor-El. He was nearly a demigod, which readers eventually grew tired of. People weren't able to relate to him as much, and that was the main reason why Marvel frequently ran circles around DC in terms of sales.

Post-crisis Superman, however, was a much more down-to-earth being. He was noticeably less powerful, with many of his frivelous powers (such as memory-erasing saliva) were removed. More importantly however, this time he was Clark Kent above all else. They emphasized the fact that Clark was raised by humans, and as such he thought and behaved as a human would. He had doubts about himself, and struggled with day to day life the same way a normal person would. Superman was a symbol that Clark would use to protect his identity and inspire people, but Clark does not actually see himself as being nearly as great as what Superman is seen as. Clark Kent is quite literally a mild mannered person who was capable of doing great things, and decided to do them because his parents taught him that it was the right thing to do. Readers found this version of Superman much more relatable, and as a result the comic's post crisis circulation saw big improvements.

So that's the big deal with pre and post crisis. Bryan Singer deliberately stated before making SR that he prefered pre-crisis Superman, because that was the one that Richard Donner used. However, myself I would much rather see post crisis Superman, because I think he has more depth, and he's someone I'm more interested in getting to know as a character.

[Katsuro]

I mostly like post-crisis Superman, but I dont like Clark being the real identity. Clark Kent has to be bumbling. The disguise is flimsy enough as it is, and the demeanor is the only thing that ever gave it the slightest bit of credibility. People should laugh at the idea of Clark Kent being Superman.

I prefer the idea of there being 3 personas. Superman and the bumbling reporter Clark Kent being fake, while the real persona being Clark Kent as he is at home, with his parents. Just like Batman, where there's Batman, playboy Bruce, and the real Bruce when he's with Alfred.

[manofsteel4life]

Make that two!make it three:woot::woot:

[manofsteel4life]

I mostly like post-crisis Superman, but I dont like Clark being the real identity. Clark Kent has to be bumbling. The disguise is flimsy enough as it is, and the demeanor is the only thing that ever gave it the slightest bit of credibility. People should laugh at the idea of Clark Kent being Superman.

I prefer the idea of there being 3 personas. Superman and the bumbling reporter Clark Kent being fake, while the real persona being Clark Kent as he is at home, with his parents. Just like Batman, where there's Batman, playboy Bruce, and the real Bruce when he's with Alfred.
i agree totally

[TruerToTheCore]

The main difference between pre-crisis and post-crisis Superman is how he relates to the reader. Pre-Crisis Superman was almost like a greek god, where his feats became large scale to the point of ridiculousness, like throwing planets through space (not unlike how in SR, he lifts a moon-sized sphere of Kryptonite out of the ocean and into space). He was fairly impersonal, often personified as a perfect being who is high above the rest of the human race. He was first and foremost Kal-El, earth's Kryptonian protector sent by Jor-El. He was nearly a demigod, which readers eventually grew tired of. People weren't able to relate to him as much, and that was the main reason why Marvel frequently ran circles around DC in terms of sales.

That's absolutely not right. The sales declined by the early 80s. Superman was actually the guy who came close to Marvel sales by the end of the 70s. (before Marvel was much smaller than DC).


Post-crisis Superman, however, was a much more down-to-earth being. He was noticeably less powerful, with many of his frivelous powers (such as memory-erasing saliva) were removed. More importantly however, this time he was Clark Kent above all else. They emphasized the fact that Clark was raised by humans, and as such he thought and behaved as a human would. He had doubts about himself, and struggled with day to day life the same way a normal person would. Superman was a symbol that Clark would use to protect his identity and inspire people, but Clark does not actually see himself as being nearly as great as what Superman is seen as. Clark Kent is quite literally a mild mannered person who was capable of doing great things, and decided to do them because his parents taught him that it was the right thing to do. Readers found this version of Superman much more relatable, and as a result the comic's post crisis circulation saw big improvements.

You are probably too young to know this. THe sales went up because it was something "new" and a then-famous Marvel creator named John Byrne took over. He made Superman into a Marvel character. After that the sales declined again and where nowhere near the pre-crisis sales. The Marvel readers simply didn't like "Superman" and the old fans didn't like the new "Superman".

As for the whole topic: Of course pre-crisis. Because that IS Superman how he was ment to be. Post-crisis was a weak Marvel imitation, hardly to call him "Superman", because he was a total inversion of the concept. Also the post-crisis world was caught in a pseudo-realism. Pre-Crisis was so full of imagination and amazing concepts.

[TruerToTheCore]

I prefer the idea of there being 3 personas. Superman and the bumbling reporter Clark Kent being fake, while the real persona being Clark Kent as he is at home, with his parents. Just like Batman, where there's Batman, playboy Bruce, and the real Bruce when he's with Alfred.

That works for Batman, but Superman is SUPPOSED to be NOT an act. He is what he is. Metropolis Clark is an act and private Clark is a Superman light variant.

[CGHulk]

I think I'm now ready for a Post Crisis Superman movie! One where he eventually tells Lois who he is, they move in together and his secret identity is Superman!

[TruerToTheCore]

Post-Crisis Superman = Not Superman.

[Lestat74]

People keep reffering to the 1978 Donner Superman as "Pre-Crisis", when he is not the Pre-Crisis Superman, he is Donner's own version. There are some pretty big differences between the movie Superman and the Pre-Crisis Superman from the comics.

- Pre-Crisis Superman was Superboy while in Smallville. Donner's was not.
- Pre-Crisis Krypton looked totally different from the Donner version. it was much more Flash Gordon/Jetsons looking.
-Pre-Crisis Luthor was a mad scientest, and knew Superman from his Superboy days.
-Pre-Crisis Superman was a bit more powerful than movie Supes, turning time back or not. In the movie it seemed like that particular task put a strain on him, where in the comics he could fly through time under his own power and do more spectacular feats without breaking a sweat.
-Pre-Crisis, BOTH Ma and Pa Kent die.

What's funny is that Post Crisis Superman has MORE in common with Donner Superman than Pre-Crisi does! Yet people cite the Donner version as being the Pre-Crisis version simply because it came out in '78, putting it chronologically 7 years before the Crisis was published. But by that time, the movie series was so ingrained in the public's mind, that John Byrne and Marv Wolfman made the new Post Crisis Superman resemble the movie version more than he ever had before.

-Post Crisis Superman's Krypton is a stark, cold world, where Jor-El wears flowing robes and things seem a bit more inspired by the Donner Krypton than the Pre-Crisis Krypton
-Superman never had a public career as Superboy Post Crisis
-Lex Luthor is now an evil business man, not a mad scientest. This was writer Marv Wolfman's idea, who was inspired somewhat by the movie Luthor, although a more poweful and less goofy version.
-Ma Kent is alive

The version we have now in the comics is kind of a mix of both versions, with some Donner thrown in. And frankly, that's what any reboot needs to do as well. There are 70 years worth of stuff, pick and choose the best.

[TruerToTheCore]

People keep reffering to the 1978 Donner Superman as "Pre-Crisis", when he is not the Pre-Crisis Superman, he is Donner's own version. There are some pretty big differences between the movie Superman and the Pre-Crisis Superman from the comics.

- Pre-Crisis Superman was Superboy while in Smallville. Donner's was not.
- Pre-Crisis Krypton looked totally different from the Donner version. it was much more Flash Gordon/Jetsons looking.
-Pre-Crisis Luthor was a mad scientest, and knew Superman from his Superboy days.
-Pre-Crisis Superman was a bit more powerful than movie Supes, turning time back or not. In the movie it seemed like that particular task put a strain on him, where in the comics he could fly through time under his own power and do more spectacular feats without breaking a sweat.
-Pre-Crisis, BOTH Ma and Pa Kent die.

What's funny is that Post Crisis Superman has MORE in common with Donner Superman than Pre-Crisi does! Yet people cite the Donner version as being the Pre-Crisis version simply because it came out in '78, putting it chronologically 7 years before the Crisis was published. But by that time, the movie series was so ingrained in the public's mind, that John Byrne and Marv Wolfman made the new Post Crisis Superman resemble the movie version more than he ever had before.

-Post Crisis Superman's Krypton is a stark, cold world, where Jor-El wears flowing robes and things seem a bit more inspired by the Donner Krypton than the Pre-Crisis Krypton
-Superman never had a public career as Superboy Post Crisis
-Lex Luthor is now an evil business man, not a mad scientest. This was writer Marv Wolfman's idea, who was inspired somewhat by the movie Luthor, although a more poweful and less goofy version.
-Ma Kent is alive

The version we have now in the comics is kind of a mix of both versions, with some Donner thrown in. And frankly, that's what any reboot needs to do as well. There are 70 years worth of stuff, pick and choose the best.

Exactly. Finally someone with a clue. The post-crisis version took a lot from the Donner movie(s).



The pre-crisis Luthor has such a bad reputation because the "new" comic book fans because they think he was like Hackman's portrayal. He was not even close.

[Bad Superman]

Not to be a smart-ass, but I'd say Post-Crisis with Superman as the main identity.

Same here. When I think Pre-Crisis I think Superman with God-like powers. Post Crisis is more toned down.

With that in mind, I voted Post-Crisis but Superman being the main identity.

[That-Guy]

I'd prefer the Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths, Post-Identity Crisis, but Pre-Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis Superman.

[TruerToTheCore]

I'd prefer the Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths, Post-Identity Crisis, but Pre-Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis Superman.

:O

You know what scares me? I understand exactly what you are saying. :csad:

[That-Guy]

:O

You know what scares me? I understand exactly what you are saying. :csad:

Yeah, I know what you mean. It actually does make sense if you've been able to keep up with DC's ludicrous "Crisis" series over the years.

[SuperDaniel]

People keep reffering to the 1978 Donner Superman as "Pre-Crisis", when he is not the Pre-Crisis Superman, he is Donner's own version. There are some pretty big differences between the movie Superman and the Pre-Crisis Superman from the comics.

- Pre-Crisis Superman was Superboy while in Smallville. Donner's was not.
- Pre-Crisis Krypton looked totally different from the Donner version. it was much more Flash Gordon/Jetsons looking.
-Pre-Crisis Luthor was a mad scientest, and knew Superman from his Superboy days.
-Pre-Crisis Superman was a bit more powerful than movie Supes, turning time back or not. In the movie it seemed like that particular task put a strain on him, where in the comics he could fly through time under his own power and do more spectacular feats without breaking a sweat.
-Pre-Crisis, BOTH Ma and Pa Kent die.

What's funny is that Post Crisis Superman has MORE in common with Donner Superman than Pre-Crisi does! Yet people cite the Donner version as being the Pre-Crisis version simply because it came out in '78, putting it chronologically 7 years before the Crisis was published. But by that time, the movie series was so ingrained in the public's mind, that John Byrne and Marv Wolfman made the new Post Crisis Superman resemble the movie version more than he ever had before.

-Post Crisis Superman's Krypton is a stark, cold world, where Jor-El wears flowing robes and things seem a bit more inspired by the Donner Krypton than the Pre-Crisis Krypton
-Superman never had a public career as Superboy Post Crisis
-Lex Luthor is now an evil business man, not a mad scientest. This was writer Marv Wolfman's idea, who was inspired somewhat by the movie Luthor, although a more poweful and less goofy version.
-Ma Kent is alive

The version we have now in the comics is kind of a mix of both versions, with some Donner thrown in. And frankly, that's what any reboot needs to do as well. There are 70 years worth of stuff, pick and choose the best.

LUTHOR'S DONNER is nooooooooooooothing like the post-crisis version. NOTHING.

I like the way it is presented in Superman for all seasons. That is Superman to me.

Superman is not an act, Neither is Clark. They are real, part of the same personality.

[I Am The Knight]

There has only been one Crisis for me... :o

[That-Guy]

LUTHOR'S DONNER is nooooooooooooothing like the post-crisis version. NOTHING.


Yes, the post-crisis version of Richard Donner is nothing like the one that Lex Luthor created in his 1978 movie.

Post-crisis, Richard Donner is a respected director and the folks at WB revere him for making the only 100% exceptional Superman film.

Rewind to Pre-Crisis Richard Donner, when he was involved in a pissing contest with WB during the making of Superman 2 which resulted in Donner making an exit and hiring a lackluster talent to put the finishing touches on an inferior film (still a decent movie, just not great, and we all know it was downhill from there).

[Kurosawa]

People keep reffering to the 1978 Donner Superman as "Pre-Crisis", when he is not the Pre-Crisis Superman, he is Donner's own version. There are some pretty big differences between the movie Superman and the Pre-Crisis Superman from the comics.

- Pre-Crisis Superman was Superboy while in Smallville. Donner's was not.
- Pre-Crisis Krypton looked totally different from the Donner version. it was much more Flash Gordon/Jetsons looking.
-Pre-Crisis Luthor was a mad scientest, and knew Superman from his Superboy days.
-Pre-Crisis Superman was a bit more powerful than movie Supes, turning time back or not. In the movie it seemed like that particular task put a strain on him, where in the comics he could fly through time under his own power and do more spectacular feats without breaking a sweat.
-Pre-Crisis, BOTH Ma and Pa Kent die.

What's funny is that Post Crisis Superman has MORE in common with Donner Superman than Pre-Crisi does! Yet people cite the Donner version as being the Pre-Crisis version simply because it came out in '78, putting it chronologically 7 years before the Crisis was published. But by that time, the movie series was so ingrained in the public's mind, that John Byrne and Marv Wolfman made the new Post Crisis Superman resemble the movie version more than he ever had before.

-Post Crisis Superman's Krypton is a stark, cold world, where Jor-El wears flowing robes and things seem a bit more inspired by the Donner Krypton than the Pre-Crisis Krypton
-Superman never had a public career as Superboy Post Crisis
-Lex Luthor is now an evil business man, not a mad scientest. This was writer Marv Wolfman's idea, who was inspired somewhat by the movie Luthor, although a more poweful and less goofy version.
-Ma Kent is alive

The version we have now in the comics is kind of a mix of both versions, with some Donner thrown in. And frankly, that's what any reboot needs to do as well. There are 70 years worth of stuff, pick and choose the best.

Yeah, as soon as Byrne's revamp came out, I knew they took much of it from the movies. Although the most damaging change-the personality change, as the very authorative and respected Kal-El became farmboy Clark-was new, as the movies more or less got Superman and Clark right.

[Lestat74]

LUTHOR'S DONNER is nooooooooooooothing like the post-crisis version. NOTHING.

I like the way it is presented in Superman for all seasons. That is Superman to me.

Superman is not an act, Neither is Clark. They are real, part of the same personality.

Ok, I'm gonna just assume you meant Donner's Luthor, not the other way around. And I remember reading an interview with Marv Wolfman ( who actually was the person who came up with the Lexcorp version of Lex, not Byrne ) where he said that part of the inspiration did indeed come from the Donner Luthor, as he was a character that clearly had a lot of money once and was then disgraced and had to literally go underground. From there on out, the characters diverged significantly, as comics Lex was smarter and more ruthless, and was not "disgraced" for decades, but the original intent was for that to happen sooner in the comics. But everyone loved that version of Lex so much he stuck around. But there was an inspiration there.

[SuperDaniel]

I know it was SOME KIND of inspiration. And i KNOW It was Marv Wolfman who did it together with Byrne. You do not have to enlighten me in Superman's history.

Post-crisis (AND Pre-crisis) are SOOOOOO much diferent than DONNER'S LUTHOR that its not funny. He doesnt hang around with stupid goons or bimbos, do wisecracks all the time, is interested in LAND and more LAND. And thank god there is no OTIS or KITTY KOWALSKY, whatever.

Donner's Luthor is similar to the Ruby Spears cartoon one and that was kinda of a middle term between both his and Marv Wolfman's.

Wolfman was inspired and improved sooooooo much.

I hate Donner's Luthor, i thought he got it totally wrong. I just cant take that character seriously at all except for some scenes.

That being said, I prefer the Birthright version without the Smallville origin.

[Lestat74]

I know it was SOME KIND of inspiration. And i KNOW It was Marv Wolfman who did it together with Byrne. You do not have to enlighten me in Superman's history.


I wasn't trying to one up ya on your knowledge of Superman lore there buddy. It's just a Superman factoid that not everyone might be aware of.

If the only Lex I had known had been the superior post Crisis version, I could totally see how people would hate on the Donner version. Especially if the movie had come out after that version was created. But it didn't. The truth is, pre-Crisis Lex was a pretty generic mustache twirling villain whose only motivation for hating Superman was that he made his hair fall out when they were kids. He then spends the rest of his life inventing things like giant robots and death rays but can't come up with a way to make his hair grow back. I could see how Donner and company chose to keep the name and ditch some of the more outlandish stuff. That's why when I watch it, I simply remember that "my" Lex simply didn't exist yet, so I can only be so dissapointed.

But I still hate Otis. Oh well, the movie is almost perfect. Can't love it all.

[SuperDaniel]

Yes, the post-crisis version of Richard Donner is nothing like the one that Lex Luthor created in his 1978 movie.

Post-crisis, Richard Donner is a respected director and the folks at WB revere him for making the only 100% exceptional Superman film.

Rewind to Pre-Crisis Richard Donner, when he was involved in a pissing contest with WB during the making of Superman 2 which resulted in Donner making an exit and hiring a lackluster talent to put the finishing touches on an inferior film (still a decent movie, just not great, and we all know it was downhill from there).
I hate his Superman II and I dont think that the Donner movies are really thaaaat good story wise. I've seen better origins.

[The Batman]

it always amazes me when some who claim to know everything about superman pigenhole STM and pre crisis superman into the same thing...lol...

i bet they dont even realize that 70's clark was a tv newscaster, not a reporter like in STM...its like saying Nolan's Batman is the EXACT same thing as post crisis batman

[Oriin]

I hate his Superman II and I dont think that the Donner movies are really thaaaat good story wise. I've seen better origins.So you like toupee's being blown off peoples head and Ice cream hitting the ground?

Donner's Superman II is pretty much what the perfect Superman movie should be.

[Deaths Head II]

it always amazes me when some who claim to know everything about superman pigenhole STM and pre crisis superman into the same thing...lol...

i bet they dont even realize that 70's clark was a tv newscaster, not a reporter like in STM...its like saying Nolan's Batman is the EXACT same thing as post crisis batman

Didn't Newscaster Clark switch back to reporter Clark pretty soon?

[SuperDaniel]

So you like toupee's being blown off peoples head and Ice cream hitting the ground?

Donner's Superman II is pretty much what the perfect Superman movie should be.

No. I didnt like them at all but i prefer Lester version without the stupid things like Celophane S, memory kiss, etc...

The animated series and the comics are much better than the movies.

[Oriin]

No. I didnt like them at all but i prefer Lester version without the stupid things like Celophane S, memory kiss, etc...

The animated series and the comics are much better than the movies.I'm pretty sure if you remove all the stupid things like the Cellophane S, memory kiss, etc... you would have a movie that well, wasn't a movie it'd be bits and pieces more of a trailer. :dry:

[SuperDaniel]

No, for example, I prefer the original opening with the Eiffel Tower, I prefer the initial revelation with Clark tripping and his hands on fire, I dont like the scenes with Marlon Brando, i thought it was a nice change that his mother would do some advice in romantic relationships. Plus, the movie was terribly edited, I HATE the turning back time ending. Anwyays, I dont like Donner's Superman II at all.

[Oriin]

No, for example, I prefer the original opening with the Eiffel Tower, I prefer the initial revelation with Clark tripping and his hands on fire, I dont like the scenes with Marlon Brando, i thought it was a nice change that his mother would do some advice in romantic relationships. Plus, the movie was terribly edited, I HATE the turning back time ending. Anwyays, I dont like Donner's Superman II at all.
To each there own, I just felt that Donner's was a better film by far.

[Kurosawa]

I know it was SOME KIND of inspiration. And i KNOW It was Marv Wolfman who did it together with Byrne. You do not have to enlighten me in Superman's history.

Post-crisis (AND Pre-crisis) are SOOOOOO much diferent than DONNER'S LUTHOR that its not funny. He doesnt hang around with stupid goons or bimbos, do wisecracks all the time, is interested in LAND and more LAND. And thank god there is no OTIS or KITTY KOWALSKY, whatever.

Donner's Luthor is similar to the Ruby Spears cartoon one and that was kinda of a middle term between both his and Marv Wolfman's.

Wolfman was inspired and improved sooooooo much.

I hate Donner's Luthor, i thought he got it totally wrong. I just cant take that character seriously at all except for some scenes.

That being said, I prefer the Birthright version without the Smallville origin.

I find Post-Crisis Luthor to be a mix of Donner/Hackman's Luthor and the Kingpin. I liked Pre-Crisis Lex, esp 70's Lex, much better.

[Motown Marvel]

post crisis superman as the real identity, but clark kent as a necessary personality.

[NotFadeAway]

I'd hope everyone has learned by now that Pre-Crisis Superman does not work on the big screen in this century.

Post-Crisis is the only way to go and the only version of that character that will make Superman awesome again in the eyes of the general audience.

[Oddzball]

There are two quotes of Supes that really stick to my memory. From the Lois & Clark show. "This - flying around being Superman is what I do. Being Clark Kent is who I am!.

The other is from the Conduit/Pipeline story arc. Clark has abandoned the Spandex and is full time trying to protect his parents, who are being stalked by Conduit. He has no choice but to save the life of their current landlady and clearly survives damage that a least should have hospitalized him. He explains "I'm Superman."

And realizes "I'll ALWAYS be Superman!" And we the readers, see this is not just his description but his damnation.

Clark, son of Jonathan and Martha Kent is the foundation of the character. The Costume and Personna are just a way for Clark to help others and still have a personal life.

[NotFadeAway]

There are two quotes of Supes that really stick to my memory. From the Lois & Clark show. "This - flying around being Superman is what I do. Being Clark Kent is who I am!.

The other is from the Conduit/Pipeline story arc. Clark has abandoned the Spandex and is full time trying to protect his parents, who are being stalked by Conduit. He has no choice but to save the life of their current landlady and clearly survives damage that a least should have hospitalized him. He explains "I'm Superman."

And realizes "I'll ALWAYS be Superman! And we the readers, see this is not just his description byt his damnation.

Clark, son of Jonathan and Martha Kent is the foundation of the character. The Costume and Personna are just a way for Clark to help others and still have a personal life.

Amen

[Oddzball]

No, for example, I prefer the original opening with the Eiffel Tower, I prefer the initial revelation with Clark tripping and his hands on fire, I dont like the scenes with Marlon Brando, i thought it was a nice change that his mother would do some advice in romantic relationships. Plus, the movie was terribly edited, I HATE the turning back time ending. Anwyays, I dont like Donner's Superman II at all.

Donner had little to do with the Second Movie. It was mostly Richard Lester's work.

Compare the hero trashing scenes in it with the hero Trashing scenes in "Robin and Marian".

Or his Musketeer films, including that awful 3rd one with Kim Catrall as M'Lady's murderous daughter. Lester doesn't just hate heroes, he readily empties his bladder on them.

[SuperDaniel]

^ I meant the Richard Donner Cut. I thought it was terrible.

[Oddzball]

Didn't Newscaster Clark switch back to reporter Clark pretty soon?

It occured when the movie was in production and released images made it clear Clark was a newspaper reporter in the film.

Now the TV anchor job was just bad. Maggin even pointed out the fatal flaw of it in his "Last Son of Krypton" novel. Clark's fear was there'd be an interview with Superman and it'd end and there'd be the face of Clark Kent in it's place.

Julie Schwartz tried to modernize the character to fit in with the 70s. Newspapers were disappearing, had been for over a decade.

The problem was the choice of TV. You need a cameraman and sound guy says the Unions. So Clark has to ditch guys Clark cannot ditch and keep his job.

Ideally he'd have worked for a 24 hour news radio station. All he has to do is report in over a phone or a radio. No one with him, usually not in the station itself but in touch enough to catch reports of emergencies and so on.

But. I wasn't consulted by them back then. :(

[Oriin]

wait.. you were consulted?

[The Sage]

post crisis superman as the real identity, but clark kent as a necessary personality.

Right on. :up::up:

[Thomas Wayne]

There are two quotes of Supes that really stick to my memory. From the Lois & Clark show. "This - flying around being Superman is what I do. Being Clark Kent is who I am!.

The other is from the Conduit/Pipeline story arc. Clark has abandoned the Spandex and is full time trying to protect his parents, who are being stalked by Conduit. He has no choice but to save the life of their current landlady and clearly survives damage that a least should have hospitalized him. He explains "I'm Superman."

And realizes "I'll ALWAYS be Superman!" And we the readers, see this is not just his description but his damnation.

Clark, son of Jonathan and Martha Kent is the foundation of the character. The Costume and Personna are just a way for Clark to help others and still have a personal life.

My sentiments exactly!:supes: Its like a job for him.

[The Sage]

Being Superman isn't a job for him. A job is something you can get tired of doing. It's not a damnation because that's a form of punishment. Superman doesnt get tired of helping people. It's his calling, and when you're doing that you don't hate it, you enjoy it. He is Superman.

[Thomas Wayne]

I didn't mean it like that. I meant that he does it as something that is a part of his life not his entire life.

[The Sage]

Oh ok.:up:

But I believe it's his main purpose in life.

[SuperDaniel]

^Yes.

[Kurosawa]

There are two quotes of Supes that really stick to my memory. From the Lois & Clark show. "This - flying around being Superman is what I do. Being Clark Kent is who I am!.

The other is from the Conduit/Pipeline story arc. Clark has abandoned the Spandex and is full time trying to protect his parents, who are being stalked by Conduit. He has no choice but to save the life of their current landlady and clearly survives damage that a least should have hospitalized him. He explains "I'm Superman."

And realizes "I'll ALWAYS be Superman!" And we the readers, see this is not just his description but his damnation.

Clark, son of Jonathan and Martha Kent is the foundation of the character. The Costume and Personna are just a way for Clark to help others and still have a personal life.

That's not how Jerry Siegel intended it to be, nor did he ever write Superman that way.

So no.

[Crook]

The development of these characters don't end with their creators, nor do they strictly adhere to original intentions. Especially after several decades and reinterpretations.

[Warhammer]

post crisis superman as the real identity, but clark kent as a necessary personality.

Word. :up:

The first thing that comes to mind when I think that is DCAU Superman. I'll say one thing. My biggest worry is not Superman, but Lex Luthor. I never liked Donnerverse Lex Luthor, and I never will.

[TruerToTheCore]

The development of these characters don't end with their creators, nor do they strictly adhere to original intentions. Especially after several decades and reinterpretations.

The guys who invented the character got it right... "probably"?

Characters will change with time, but the Post-crisis Superman was a TOTAL INVERSION of Superman's concepts.

[Crook]

In what way? It may have altered aspects of the character, but nothing that would be a complete 180 for what Supes stood for.

[Timstuff]

Word. :up:

The first thing that comes to mind when I think that is DCAU Superman. I'll say one thing. My biggest worry is not Superman, but Lex Luthor. I never liked Donnerverse Lex Luthor, and I never will.

Agreed. That's part of why I don't at all mind the idea of Lex being in the Superman reboot, because modern Lex Luthor and Donner's Luthor are practically two different characters.

[TruerToTheCore]

In what way? It may have altered aspects of the character, but nothing that would be a complete 180 for what Supes stood for.

No, he did.

He made Superman an act.
He made the "ultimate man" into a "regular guy with powers".

These are facts.

[Crook]

No, he did.

He made Superman an act.
He made the "ultimate man" into a "regular guy with powers".

These are facts.
That's a shift in how an identity is portrayed. That's not changing the core values of the character.

[Kurosawa]

The development of these characters don't end with their creators, nor do they strictly adhere to original intentions. Especially after several decades and reinterpretations.

Superman was the primary identity for almost 50 years, including the most successful periods of the character's existence. People have Spider-Man for a relateable hero; Superman should be an inspirational hero. And it's not a coincidence that Batman regained legitimacy in the early 70's when DC returned to a portrayal of the character that was closer to the Finger/Kane original. DC and WB needs to do the same with Superman. This could even include him working outside the law, showing the social conscience of the early Siegel series.

To be honest, I'd love to see the character reimagined in this manner, up to the K-Metal story where DC took control of the series from Siegel and Shuster, and carrying on from the direction of that story.

[TruerToTheCore]

Superman was the primary identity for almost 50 years, including the most successful periods of the character's existence. People have Spider-Man for a relateable hero; Superman should be an inspirational hero. And it's not a coincidence that Batman regained legitimacy in the early 70's when DC returned to a portrayal of the character that was closer to the Finger/Kane original. DC and WB needs to do the same with Superman. This could even include him working outside the law, showing the social conscience of the early Siegel series.

To be honest, I'd love to see the character reimagined in this manner, up to the K-Metal story where DC took control of the series from Siegel and Shuster, and carrying on from the direction of that story.

Yeah! :up:

[Michael Corleone]

There needs to be a balance of both. Superman as a god is boring and so is a sophisticated Clark Kent. Kent in metropolis should be very much a disguise. Clark on the farm should reflect his upbringing and Superman should reflect his connection to his heritage. Kent in Metropolis is the fake. Clark on the farm and Superman should make up the man. Not three different people, but two different parts of him as a person. As far as power goes, when you get into the fantastical, it just gets boring and no one wants to see that from a audience point of view. Fanboys will want to see one or the other, but for this film to be successful, the Superman Godlike powers aren't going to help.

[SatEL]

There needs to be a balance of both. Superman as a god is boring and so is a sophisticated Clark Kent. Kent in metropolis should be very much a disguise. Clark on the farm should reflect his upbringing and Superman should reflect his connection to his heritage. Kent in Metropolis is the fake. Clark on the farm and Superman should make up the man. Not three different people, but two different parts of him as a person. As far as power goes, when you get into the fantastical, it just gets boring and no one wants to see that from a audience point of view. Fanboys will want to see one or the other, but for this film to be successful, the Superman Godlike powers aren't going to help.

Well Post crisis power level hits pre-crisis stage at times, heck post crisis Supes has held a black hole open with his bare hands. Me personally I like my Superman powerful and Super as opposed to him been strong man that can fly.

[Kurosawa]

Superman's worked with both extreme and more reserved power levels, but he's never worked with the Clark identity being the primary identity. Not that meek Clark is a complete act; I consider him to be an expression of Kal's personality and of the people that Superman fights for above all others.

Mild Mannered Clark is Kal-El's sensitive side in a lot of ways.

[Deaths Head II]

I think theres a strong chance Superman will be the real identity, simply because in the Nolan films Batman is the true identity. Pompous spoiled Bruce Wayne and bumbling goofball Clark Kent always seemed to work along the same lines for me.

[TruerToTheCore]

I think theres a strong chance Superman will be the real identity, simply because in the Nolan films Batman is the true identity. Pompous spoiled Bruce Wayne and bumbling goofball Clark Kent always seemed to work along the same lines for me.

No. In the Nolan movies. "Batman" is not the "main identity". It's the guy you see with Rachel and Alfred who he is the "real identity". The guy with the silly voice is not the real persona.

[TruerToTheCore]

I think theres a strong chance Superman will be the real identity, simply because in the Nolan films Batman is the true identity. Pompous spoiled Bruce Wayne and bumbling goofball Clark Kent always seemed to work along the same lines for me.

No. In the Nolan movies. "Batman" is not the "main identity". It's the guy you see with Rachel and Alfred who he is the "real identity". The guy with the silly voice is not the real persona.

[I Am The Knight]

No. In the Nolan movies. "Batman" is not the "main identity". It's the guy you see with Rachel and Alfred who he is the "real identity". The guy with the silly voice is not the real persona.

Nolan intended for the opposite though. Even going as far as blatantly telling us that Batman is the real identity through Rachel at the end of BB, and through Rachel's letter in TDK. But I know it doesn't comes off that way when you actually see the movies.

[Timstuff]

The way I see it, Batman and Bruce Wayne are almost like two people competing over the same body. Then, there's the phony Bruce Wayne who is the public daytime persona.

[Cain]

People keep reffering to the 1978 Donner Superman as "Pre-Crisis", when he is not the Pre-Crisis Superman, he is Donner's own version. There are some pretty big differences between the movie Superman and the Pre-Crisis Superman from the comics.

- Pre-Crisis Superman was Superboy while in Smallville. Donner's was not.
- Pre-Crisis Krypton looked totally different from the Donner version. it was much more Flash Gordon/Jetsons looking.
-Pre-Crisis Luthor was a mad scientest, and knew Superman from his Superboy days.
-Pre-Crisis Superman was a bit more powerful than movie Supes, turning time back or not. In the movie it seemed like that particular task put a strain on him, where in the comics he could fly through time under his own power and do more spectacular feats without breaking a sweat.
-Pre-Crisis, BOTH Ma and Pa Kent die.

What's funny is that Post Crisis Superman has MORE in common with Donner Superman than Pre-Crisi does! Yet people cite the Donner version as being the Pre-Crisis version simply because it came out in '78, putting it chronologically 7 years before the Crisis was published. But by that time, the movie series was so ingrained in the public's mind, that John Byrne and Marv Wolfman made the new Post Crisis Superman resemble the movie version more than he ever had before.

-Post Crisis Superman's Krypton is a stark, cold world, where Jor-El wears flowing robes and things seem a bit more inspired by the Donner Krypton than the Pre-Crisis Krypton
-Superman never had a public career as Superboy Post Crisis
-Lex Luthor is now an evil business man, not a mad scientest. This was writer Marv Wolfman's idea, who was inspired somewhat by the movie Luthor, although a more poweful and less goofy version.
-Ma Kent is alive

The version we have now in the comics is kind of a mix of both versions, with some Donner thrown in. And frankly, that's what any reboot needs to do as well. There are 70 years worth of stuff, pick and choose the best.

This man knows what he's talking about :up:

[Oddzball]

Being Superman isn't a job for him. A job is something you can get tired of doing. It's not a damnation because that's a form of punishment. Superman doesnt get tired of helping people. It's his calling, and when you're doing that you don't hate it, you enjoy it. He is Superman.

It's a damnation in the sense that he can't walk away from it. No matter what. Not even to save his family. It's a damnation because Curses can be broken. Damnation's more permanent.

[Oddzball]

That's not how Jerry Siegel intended it to be, nor did he ever write Superman that way.

So no.

Jerry Siegel has had very little to do with Superman for quite a while. His Superman threw men who did what he didn't like done into cometary orbits. No trial.

[Oddzball]

Agreed. That's part of why I don't at all mind the idea of Lex being in the Superman reboot, because modern Lex Luthor and Donner's Luthor are practically two different characters.

This is something I find unacceptable.

Superman I. Luthor. Superman II. The Zone villains and Luthor. Superman III, Robert Vaughn playing the Luthor character under a different name. Supergirl. Faye Dunaway imitating Robert Vaughn. Superman IV. Luthor and the Atomic Man and a sales killing subtitle.

The last movie: A remake of the the first with Supes as a Stalker, And Spacey playing Luthor's personality so close to his vest the audience sees nothing.

The new movie has to break away from all of that. If Luthor shows up at all it's a cameo to set up the sequel.