The Sarah Palin Thread (You can see Russia from this thread)

[danoyse]

Well...maybe thats true? Why do you have to assume the worst? Maybe she did just want to protect her daughter from the humiliation of being a teenage mother in a small, Alaska town. Is that so wrong? She had the resources to do it...I can't really say I fault her. I'd do it for my daughter if I could.

Oh, I don't think there's anything wrong with what she did. She is protecting her daughter, and I probably would have done the same thing as well.

But I do think as far as a media issue it could potentially blow up as a huge issue, that as Governor she lied about the whole thing, or that her daughter isn't quite so innocent as they've been portrayed. I don't think it will do them any favors in the press if it does come out as true.

[Marx]

Cindy McCain speaks on Palin as VP
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080831/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_convention_rdp

The Republican candidate's wife, Cindy McCain, said her husband's choice of Palin, a first-term Alaska governor little known outside her home state, was "a marvelous choice."

"They're a perfect match," she told ABC's "This Week" in a taped interview. Why? "Because she's a reformer. And she thinks outside the box, the way my husband does," Cindy McCain said. "You know, Washington is just a quagmire. It's a mess right now. And both of them have been serious reformers."

As to Palin's lack of national security experience, Cindy McCain said, "Alaska is the closest part of our continent to Russia. So, it's not as if she doesn't understand what's at stake here. It's also about making decisions and be targeted in what she thinks. She has a great mind. And she has a very serious direction in where she goes."

:wow:

(I really expected more 'reality' from Cindy McCain. I guess I was wrong.)

[SuperT]

Fathers go to work the day after their child is born and never take any time off. Dont they need to bond with their children???

Fathers are important as well, but mothers are ESSENTIAL to a newborn childs early development.

It is highly suspicious that a woman who just gave birth to a baby would be back to work in three days?!?! I know she's the governer of Alaska, but come one dude!! o_0

[danoyse]

Cindy McCain speaks on Palin as VP
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080831/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_convention_rdp

The Republican candidate's wife, Cindy McCain, said her husband's choice of Palin, a first-term Alaska governor little known outside her home state, was "a marvelous choice."

"They're a perfect match," she told ABC's "This Week" in a taped interview. Why? "Because she's a reformer. And she thinks outside the box, the way my husband does," Cindy McCain said. "You know, Washington is just a quagmire. It's a mess right now. And both of them have been serious reformers."
As to Palin's lack of national security experience, Cindy McCain said, "Alaska is the closest part of our continent to Russia. So, it's not as if she doesn't understand what's at stake here. It's also about making decisions and be targeted in what she thinks. She has a great mind. And she has a very serious direction in where she goes."

:wow:

(I really expected more 'reality' from Cindy McCain. I guess I was wrong.)


Wow, they're really going to be running with this one, aren't they?

I've been to the World Showcase at Epcot Center 8 times. Does that make me a foreign ambassodor?

[souvlaki]

If the baby is hers, then her 8 hour plane ride and three hour car ride AFTER her water broke makes me question her judgment as a mother all the more. Especially since they knew this was a special needs baby and it was premature. If it's not hers, then she'll be double-damned. What I DO know is this: when you are from a small town there are NO secrets. None. If this story has any legs, it will come out of the woodwork and probably fairly quickly.

jag

Oh, I agree completely. Even if this turns out NOT to be true, the fact that she was on a plane for 8 hours while in labor without giving her doctor notice really irritates me. That's just downright irresponsible, especially considering if a woman goes into labor while pregnant I believe the airline is required to make an emergency landing. So if it turns out this isn't true, she's irresponsible, if it turns out this is true, she's downright corrupt, and the mastermind of a massive cover-up. Either way, she's going to get hammered if this story gets out there.

[jaguarr]

Fathers go to work the day after their child is born and never take any time off. Dont they need to bond with their children???


Actually, I took two weeks off from work when my son was born to be with him and bond. And, I have very recently passed on two different job offers because they would have taken me away from my wife and newborn son for much longer periods than is acceptable to me. Another guy in my office did basically the same thing when his daughter was born. So, yes, fathers DO take time off when their children are born and yes, we DO make career decisions that put our family first.



No...it is the mothers that need to bond with them because they are women, and that sort of thing is more important to them. Women shouldnt be concerned with things like careers, and if they have a career and then become pregnant, they should quit their jobs...even if that job is governor of a state.

What I typed above sounds ridiculous to both republicans and feminists...seems the democrats believe it though.

You aren't a parent, are you? Never witnessed the biological need most mothers have to be with their child for yourself, have you?

jag

[Matt]

Oh, I don't think there's anything wrong with what she did. She is protecting her daughter, and I probably would have done the same thing as well.

But I do think as far as a media issue it could potentially blow up as a huge issue, that as Governor she lied about the whole thing, or that her daughter isn't quite so innocent as they've been portrayed. I don't think it will do them any favors in the press if it does come out as true.

Oh, the media will tear her apart, undoubtedly.

Fathers are important as well, but mothers are ESSENTIAL to a newborn childs early development.

It is highly suspicious that a woman who just gave birth to a baby would be back to work in three days?!?! I know she's the governer of Alaska, but come one dude!! o_0

But we do not know what the kind of work was, how long she worked each day, where she was working from (she is capable of doing her duties from the governor's mansion with the baby by her side), or if the baby was at the office with her. I mean, if she took some conference calls or signed some papers while the baby was in a bassionette beside her, can we really call her a bad mother?

[danoyse]

Oh, the media will tear her apart, undoubtedly.

And the late night comics will have a field day.

There was recently a similar storyline on Desperate Housewives...you know they'll play that up if the story turns out to be true.

[jaguarr]

Cindy McCain speaks on Palin as VP
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080831/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_convention_rdp

The Republican candidate's wife, Cindy McCain, said her husband's choice of Palin, a first-term Alaska governor little known outside her home state, was "a marvelous choice."

"They're a perfect match," she told ABC's "This Week" in a taped interview. Why? "Because she's a reformer. And she thinks outside the box, the way my husband does," Cindy McCain said. "You know, Washington is just a quagmire. It's a mess right now. And both of them have been serious reformers."

As to Palin's lack of national security experience, Cindy McCain said, "Alaska is the closest part of our continent to Russia. So, it's not as if she doesn't understand what's at stake here. It's also about making decisions and be targeted in what she thinks. She has a great mind. And she has a very serious direction in where she goes."

:wow:

(I really expected more 'reality' from Cindy McCain. I guess I was wrong.)

LMAO! Every time they trot out that "Alaska is close to Russia!" line as a part of her foreign policy and national security expertise with a straight face I just crack up! :funny:

jag

[jaguarr]

But we do not know what the kind of work was, how long she worked each day, where she was working from (she is capable of doing her duties from the governor's mansion with the baby by her side), or if the baby was at the office with her. I mean, if she took some conference calls or signed some papers while the baby was in a bassionette beside her, can we really call her a bad mother?

I'm not questioning her ability to be a mother while she was in ALASKA, where her baby is (though going back to work three days after the delivery is a bit suspect to me). I'm questioning her decision to basically abandon her newborn baby to go on the campaign trail for Veep. That's not strong family values to me.

jag

[Matt]

And the late night comics will have a field day.

There was recently a similar storyline on Desperate Housewives...you know they'll play that up if the story turns out to be true.

But I doubt anyone will go with it. Unless they get the doctor to testify, there is no way to prove it and no one will risk being this year's Dan Rather. Especially because the second a mainstream media source runs it, they fear that Palin will produce a picture of her pregnant stomach or a report from the doctor, or a labor video, or something and whoever ran with the story will have their career destroyed.

[Matt]

I'm not questioning her ability to be a mother while she was in ALASKA, where her baby is (though going back to work three days after the delivery is a bit suspect to me). I'm questioning her decision to basically abandon her newborn baby to go on the campaign trail for Veep. That's not strong family values to me.

jag

Well, the baby is 4 or 5 months old by now...but I can't disagree with you on that, Jag. I'm not sure I'd leave Claire for two days, yet alone 2 months.

[kainedamo]

But I doubt anyone will go with it. Unless they get the doctor to testify, there is no way to prove it and no one will risk being this year's Dan Rather. Especially because the second a mainstream media source runs it, they fear that Palin will produce a picture of her pregnant stomach or a report from the doctor, or a labor video, or something and whoever ran with the story will have their career destroyed.

There is another way. A young teenage boy could come out and claim he is the father.

Very dramatic and soap opera-ish though.

[danoyse]

But I doubt anyone will go with it. Unless they get the doctor to testify, there is no way to prove it and no one will risk being this year's Dan Rather. Especially because the second a mainstream media source runs it, they fear that Palin will produce a picture of her pregnant stomach or a report from the doctor, or a labor video, or something and whoever ran with the story will have their career destroyed.

I agree. No one is going to be stupid enough to run with it as a story.

But I have seen it grow from a comment on a message board on Friday night to finding it on several forums today. I wonder what kind of legs it's going to have.

[Matt]

There is another way. A young teenage boy could come out and claim he is the father.

Very dramatic and soap opera-ish though.

Again, no one will run with that because unless Palin allows Prix or Prax or whatever the weird name is, to get a DNA test...there's no way of authenticating the claims.

[Heretic]

Actually, I took two weeks off from work when my son was born to be with him and bond. And, I have very recently passed on two different job offers because they would have taken me away from my wife and newborn son for much longer periods than is acceptable to me. Another guy in my office did basically the same thing when his daughter was born. So, yes, fathers DO take time off when their children are born and yes, we DO make career decisions that put our family first.




You aren't a parent, are you? Never witnessed the biological need most mothers have to be with their child for yourself, have you?

jag

Oh yeah...you know my entire private life based on my opinion that women can be competent mothers and career women.

I think its great that you took some time off to be with your kid. Thats commendable...but hardly the national standard.

Plus, when a womans job is that of state governor, she CANT just decide to take a month to be with her child (this is assuming that she cant spend lots of freaking time with her kid in the governors mansion). Most likely, she had constant access to her baby, and a much lighter workload...but that just doesnt compute with some people...there is no alternative in some peoples minds. Her situation was probably much easier to handle than the millions of working mothers who have to go back to work as soon as possible...most people arent governors, and therefore cant dictate their access and workload. So, what she did is likely EASIER than what millions of women do every day.

[Matt]

I agree. No one is going to be stupid enough to run with it as a story.

But I have seen it grow from a comment on a message board on Friday night to finding it on several forums today. I wonder what kind of legs it's going to have.

It may have legs, but I doubt they'll be effective. Its the Ron Paul effect. If you went based on internet interest in Ron Paul, he should've won the Republican nomination with 90 % of the vote. He was embarrassed. People over-estimated his importance because he had fans on the internet. Unless CNN or NBC or some credible source runs this, odds are most people will never hear it.

[danoyse]

I'm not questioning her ability to be a mother while she was in ALASKA, where her baby is (though going back to work three days after the delivery is a bit suspect to me). I'm questioning her decision to basically abandon her newborn baby to go on the campaign trail for Veep. That's not strong family values to me.

jag

Also, she's claimed that she needs it explained to her what a VP actually does...which could show that she really has no idea what she's getting into, and how that will affect her relationship with the kids. Especially the baby--since all DS cases are different, there's no telling now what kind of developmental problems might arise in the next 4 years that will demand her attention.

[jaguarr]

But I doubt anyone will go with it. Unless they get the doctor to testify, there is no way to prove it and no one will risk being this year's Dan Rather. Especially because the second a mainstream media source runs it, they fear that Palin will produce a picture of her pregnant stomach or a report from the doctor, or a labor video, or something and whoever ran with the story will have their career destroyed.

I will say this, as I have once before: There are NO secrets in a small town. None. I suspect this may come out of the woodwork pretty damn fast if this story really has any legs. And even if it really IS her baby....she's got some SERIOUS explaining to do as to why she would break her water, finish a speech, drive to the airport, get on a plane and fly for 8 hours, drive another 3 hours to a remote Alaska town and THEN have a baby! I'm no doctor but I do know that the more kids a woman has, the easier it becomes for them each time; the labor process goes faster and faster. Call it a "breaking in" period or something. :hehe: I can't imagine a woman with four previous births holding a kid in for 12 hours after her water broke. I can't imagine a woman in her forties (high risk pregnancy), giving birth prematurely (high risk birth) to a special needs child with Downs Syndrome (high risk birth) getting on a commercial jet AFTER her water broke to travel all that way before actually having the baby. Especially since the airline attendants said she was jovial and didn't appear to be in any pain or discomfort. Once the water breaks, immediate medical attention is necessary for one thing. Not getting it increases the risk of septis, which could KILL both mother AND child. Highly, highly irrresponsible if she really did all that.

Well, the baby is 4 or 5 months old by now...but I can't disagree with you on that, Jag. I'm not sure I'd leave Claire for two days, yet alone 2 months.

What's funny is that I would NOT have had this perspective if I weren't a new father. Maybe to a certain degree because I have so many nieces and nephews, but being a parent brings a WHOLE NEW perspective to the table for a person. I'm betting you might say something similar.

jag

[danoyse]

It may have legs, but I doubt they'll be effective. Its the Ron Paul effect. If you went based on internet interest in Ron Paul, he should've won the Republican nomination with 90 % of the vote. He was embarrassed. People over-estimated his importance because he had fans on the internet. Unless CNN or NBC or some credible source runs this, odds are most people will never hear it.

And again, she was protecting her daughter. If the baby was maybe the result of an affair, it would be bad PR that they couldn't recover from, but this is something that can have a positive spin on it and I don't see it being that terrible if it gets out.

[jaguarr]

Oh yeah...you know my entire private life based on my opinion that women can be competent mothers and career women.

I think its great that you took some time off to be with your kid. Thats commendable...but hardly the national standard.

Plus, when a womans job is that of state governor, she CANT just decide to take a month to be with her child (this is assuming that she cant spend lots of freaking time with her kid in the governors mansion). Most likely, she had constant access to her baby, and a much lighter workload...but that just doesnt compute with some people...there is no alternative in some peoples minds. Her situation was probably much easier to handle than the millions of working mothers who have to go back to work as soon as possible...most people arent governors, and therefore cant dictate their access and workload. So, what she did is likely EASIER than what millions of women do every day.

Now I KNOW you aren't a parent.

jag

[Heretic]

Now I KNOW you aren't a parent.

jag


Why, because I dared suggest that many women DO accomplish the difficult task of having careers and being a mother????

That is really all that post says.

[jaguarr]

Why, because I dared suggest that many women DO accomplish the difficult task of having careers and being a mother????

That is really all that post says.

No, because you don't have the perspective of a parent or even someone who's been around a lot of new parents, to be quite honest. You don't "get it". Kind of like McCain.

jag

[Superman]

In all fairness Jag it wouldn't surprise me if a mother of 4 thought that it wasn't a big deal to go back to work soon after the 5th kid is born. I mean the newness of "motherhood" would have worn off after the first 4.

I've seen it before in women who have alot of kids. After awhile it almost becomes routine and they think nothing of getting back to normal life after the 5th or 6th child.

Just my two cents.:cwink:

[Comicfilmer]

I was looking through some older threads and stumbled across this one:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=299788

On the first page, Matt not only predicted Sarah Palin to be McCain's pick, but stated she would be the best pick. This was back in April, no less. :woot: Not bad, Matt. :woot:

[jaguarr]

In all fairness Jag it wouldn't surprise me if a mother of 4 thought that it wasn't a big deal to go back to work soon after the 5th kid is born. I mean the newness of "motherhood" would have worn off after the first 4.

I've seen it before in women who have alot of kids. After awhile it almost becomes routine and they think nothing of getting back to normal life after the 5th or 6th child.

Just my two cents.:cwink:

And, on the flip side, I know several women with a lot of kids (both of my sister-in-laws included) and neither one of them would let any of their kids out of their arms practically EVER when they were newborns and that goes from first to the last kid born. It's not a newness of motherhood thing. It's that "mommy instinct". Different in everyone I know, but most mothers have it pretty damn strong.

jag

[Matt]

I was looking through some older threads and stumbled across this one:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=299788

On the first page, Matt not only predicted Sarah Palin to be McCain's pick, but stated she would be the best pick. This was back in April, no less. :woot: Not bad, Matt. :woot:

Cheers, but you're selling me short just a bit.

I first predicted Palin back in February in the Obama thread

:cwink:

[Matt]

And, on the flip side, I know several women with a lot of kids (both of my sister-in-laws included) and neither one of them would let any of their kids out of their arms practically EVER when they were newborns and that goes from first to the last kid born. It's not a newness of motherhood thing. It's that "mommy instinct". Different in everyone I know, but most mothers have it pretty damn strong.

jag

Just because I would not do something, doesn't mean I can judge someone else for it. Especially when kids are involved. People parent in different ways, none are wrong and right...after all, if we are going to judge Palin for her judgement in mothering her children...then surely we are justified in judging Barack Obama for keeping company with a militant radical or a known terrorist :cwink:

[jaguarr]

Just because I would not do something, doesn't mean I can judge someone else for it. Especially when kids are involved. People parent in different ways, none are wrong and right...after all, if we are going to judge Palin for her judgement in mothering her children...then surely we are justified in judging Barack Obama for keeping company with a militant radical or a known terrorist :cwink:

Now you're just reaching. :oldrazz:

jag

[Matt]

Heh, not really. If one is justified in judging how a woman choses to mother her children, then surely we are just as justified in judging someone for the company they keep.

[jaguarr]

Heh, not really. If one is justified in judging how a woman choses to mother her children, then surely we are just as justified in judging someone for the company they keep.

Okay. Have fun with that. :)

jag

[Heretic]

Obamas ties with terrorists (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with the conversation.

I am very, very close to some single mothers...to the point where I paid for all of their baby furniture, paid rent for them while they were out of work etc (no, I was not the father, just a friend). Due to finanical/career responsibilities, most of those mothers had to return to work within days of giving birth. It happens all the time, because those women did not have the financial backing of an organization with hundreds of millions of dollars to help pay for them to raise their child. Now, if they did have an organization that would assist in that manner, it would have made the transistion much easier.

[Superman]

And, on the flip side, I know several women with a lot of kids (both of my sister-in-laws included) and neither one of them would let any of their kids out of their arms practically EVER when they were newborns and that goes from first to the last kid born. It's not a newness of motherhood thing. It's that "mommy instinct". Different in everyone I know, but most mothers have it pretty damn strong.

jagYou're right, It is strong in most mothers, But not all. I personally won't fault Palin for wanting to get back to work so soon after her 5th child.

There are way to many other things about her that I can fault her for without worrying about how fast she went back to work. :oldrazz: :cwink: :woot:

[UA-Archangel]

Oh. Hey guess what? 7 judges said the same thing about abortion as well...:dry:

And it only takes 5 to overturn.:joker:

[jaguarr]

You're right, It is strong in most mothers, But not all. I personally won't fault Palin for wanting to get back to work so soon after her 5th child.

There are way to many other things about her that I can fault her for without worrying about how fast she went back to work. :oldrazz: :cwink: :woot:

When the Earth is only 6,000 years, there is so much left to be done to carry us forward. :dry:

At any rate, I hope that the story that it's really her daughter's baby has some legs. It'd make me question some of the stuff she did (especially the traveling 12 hours to have the baby AFTER her water broke part) a lot less. A nice little scandal over all of it would probably be fun to see play out in the media, too. It would be epic, actually.

jag

[Matt]

It would quite possibly be the funniest scandal ever...if its true. Or well, if it can be proven (which I doubt).

[Hobodeluxe]

Like I said. the going back to work and dumping the infant off is reprehensible enough but the thing that will crush her is getting on that plane for a 14 hour trip after her water broke and she went into premature labor with a special needs kid at the age of 44 and it being her 5th kid so she could go to Willisa and have it at the home town hospital that didn't even have an NICU

had that child died of complications people like her would be the first to call for the mother's head.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k219/burndtdan/lotsofdogs.jpg

[Superman]

When the Earth is only 6,000 years, there is so much left to be done to carry us forward. :dry:

At any rate, I hope that the story that it's really her daughter's baby has some legs. It'd make me question some of the stuff she did (especially the traveling 12 hours to have the baby AFTER her water broke part) a lot less. A nice little scandal over all of it would probably be fun to see play out in the media, too. It would be epic, actually.

jagI would love for it to be true because it would be funny as hell and it would kill McCain's campaign but like I said before, We ain't that lucky.:csad:

Too bad, It would have been fun to watch.:woot:

[Heretic]

I understand that Palin is a Christian or what have you, but is there any video or audio evidence of her claiming to believe that the earth is 6,000 years old. Not all creationists believe in that theory. Christians tend to be all over the map, except for the few vital things (virgin birth, zombie jesus etc)

[Superman]

I understand that Palin is a Christian or what have you, but is there any video or audio evidence of her claiming to believe that the earth is 6,000 years old. Not all creationists believe in that theory. Christians tend to be all over the map, except for the few vital things (virgin birth, zombie jesus etc)Zombie Jesus. :funny:

[kainedamo]

I would love for it to be true because it would be funny as hell and it would kill McCain's campaign but like I said before, We ain't that lucky.:csad:

Too bad, It would have been fun to watch.:woot:

If its true, I would prefer for it to come out AFTER Obama wins. I wouldn't enjoy seeing people use the scandal as an excuse for Obama winning.

[Heretic]

Like I said. the going back to work and dumping the infant off is reprehensible enough but the thing that will crush her is getting on that plane for a 14 hour trip after her water broke and she went into premature labor with a special needs kid at the age of 44 and it being her 5th kid so she could go to Willisa and have it at the home town hospital that didn't even have an NICU

had that child died of complications people like her would be the first to call for the mother's head.



I have a friend who is a single mother. She had a difficult pregnancy and had to stop working. I paid her phone bill, rent, electric and vital bills, but after she gave birth she went back to work within days so she could catch up on bills. I will let her know that you find her a reprehensible human being.

By the way...what was initially reported as a 12 hour flight is now a 14 hour flight? Apparently the flight was actually 8 hours...which doesnt make it right...it just means that you are stretching the truth to make her look worse.

[Superman]

If its true, I would prefer for it to come out AFTER Obama wins. I wouldn't enjoy seeing people use the scandal as an excuse for Obama winning.After all the crap the Right has tried to pin on Obama these past few months, Him being a Muslim, Him being the anti-christ and all the other stupid crap, It would serve them right to lose over a story like this IMO.

[kainedamo]

After all the crap the Right has tried to pin on Obama these past few months, Him being a Muslim, Him being the anti-christ and all the other stupid crap, It would serve them right to loose over a story like this IMO.

I suppose there would be a certain poetic justice about it.

[Heretic]

After all the crap the Right has tried to pin on Obama these past few months, Him being a Muslim, Him being the anti-christ and all the other stupid crap, It would serve them right to loose over a story like this IMO.

I dont recall any legitimate right wing group claiming any of that. Insane idiots with blogs? maybe. people thaat are taken seriously? Not so much.

[kainedamo]

FxhTBjWy2AU

[jaguarr]

AKkydrUnBZE

Classy.

jag

[kainedamo]

Palin confused over what the VP position is.

loUHRv3ipLE

[DACrowe]

Ok, I'm only going to add a little more here. You learned all that in your Political Science class right? Which school? Just how Liberal is that School? Do you really think that Liberal American Acedemia is going to tell you that Hitler followed a path of ideology that stems from Liberalism? Buddy, you are in college, to learn how to ask questions, not repeat the historical talking points.

How was Hitler anywhere remotely Conservative or a Classical Liberal? How did he believe in Free Market? Was it when he took over Industry in Germany? Or was it when he Changed the Status Quo of Post WWI Germany? Was it when he enacted NEW laws detailing rights in Germany? He took over Germany by Revolution, Intellectual Revolution. And that is in part, defination of a Progressive Statist Facist. But because he happened to be slightly to the right of Italian Facism, he is taught to be a Conservative. But, how was he a Conservative?

He was slightly to the right of the Far Left, but not a Centrist, or anywhere near the right.

Which party between Democrat and Republican want bigger government, which party had members call for Nationalizing the Oil Companies, and healthcare? Which Party uses class warfare to attain its goals? Which party is clamoring the differences between Men and Women, Rich and Poor, Workers and Managment, and races? Sorry, but when I hear liberals spout off about the Rich being lazy, or confiscation of their wealth for no reason other than "Fairness", or Nationalizing ANYTHING that is private, I hear echos of Facism, Communism, and Marxism. When I hear a Politician's wife say "[Canidate] is going to require you to work, he is going to ask you to serve" I don't find that very appealing. I feel that isn't promoting Classical Liberalism, just the complete opposite of it. When I hear plans to "Lift the burden on the poor and middle-class", I hear "Proletariat vs the Bourgeosise", and I think, hmm... Who in history was for the "Workers"?
Who today is compounding the dangerous echos of the past?


Progressivism is a dangerous, dangerous thing. Because, to who's benifit is the "Progress"? By who's terms is this progress met? Who's definition of "Progress"? Yes. It is noble to want to be compassionate for the poor, the sick, and the hungry, but don't give the Government the tools to steal the wealth, control your health, and obtain nurishment, Intellectually or otherwise. They will control you. Give them the power, and they will make you "work for your freedom".

I won't comment any more on this, unless there is a dedicated thread for it.

Deep breath...I don't think we should explore this much more deeply. This is not really an argument of history as I was trying to make it. It has become more one of theory. You obviously subscribe to classical liberalism/what conservatism is supposed to be and I'm going to guess you are a big proponent of laissez-faire free markets.

I will say that I was arguing in the modern sense of the word "liberal" which today is synonymous with progressive compared to our modern appreciation for conservative. Not how they would have been viewed in the 17th and 18th centuries.

I think it is unfair to use free market as proof that Republicans were not a liberal or "progressive" party in the 19th century, when government regulation of business was much smaller as the Federal government did believe in a more free market capitalism and each generation the federal government, particularly the executive branch (originally secondary to the legislative) took more and more power. But in our modern understanding of liberal vs. conservative it boils down to changing the status quo. Republicans wanted to make others think like they do, which can be damning or not. They at first wanted to contain slavery to the south and when the war became deeply entrenched, they aimed to finally abolish the institution from existence in the Union. They wanted to punish the south, but also change it into a more "American" place with Reconstruction. The Democrats, who were by modern definition the conservative party, fought viscously against this. And after the rather dubious election of 1876 and under-the-table dealings that ended Reconstruction southern Democrats did try to go back to the way things were. Do you know of the Wilmington Riots of 1898, where they overthrew the black citizenship? Democrats were the party of segregation and the whitewashing of American history in the 1890s that led to Jim Crow and the "Gone with the Wind" mythology.

Government regulation became more prevalent after REPUBLICAN Teddy Roosevelt began his crusade of trust busting and destroying monopolies and going after the rich. While biased and bad laws allowed these monopolies, especially in the railroad industry, the form of regulation Roosevelt enacted was entirely new. As was his reaction to the public outcry over Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle," in which he began food and sanitation regulations. This was followed by fellow Republican president, William Taft. In fact Roosevelt's somewhat pathological hatred for Taft is what began tearing the Republicans apart, especially when Roosevelt ran again as a third candidate.

The real shift in policy began in the 1920s with the Republicans becoming more conservative and free/corrupt market oriented. As you know the big change for the Democrats was Franklin Roosevelt. His New Deal I would argue helped safe American capitalism by limiting and "interfering" with it. Here is a regulator who you may dislike (I do not know), but I'd argue is one of our three best presidents and easily the best of the 20th century.

Economically he is unsound. As you previously pointed out correctly, minimum wage (for example) limits the market's capacity to produce. It is in direct opposition of laissez-faire. But while without it frictional unemployment may decrease, the quality of life for the worker would still be bad. History has proven unregulated supply side/trickle-down economics (which I'd guess libertarians love) does not work.

And there is the crux of our argument. You are arguing in use of political theory why progressives are dangerous and change is dangerous and argue in favor of classical liberalism which modern Democrats generally oppose without government interference. I disagree and think it is somewhat self-blinding to limit one's self to such constructs and that political theory is never the same in practice. I do believe that change has been the definition of American history in an awkward attempt to create a "more perfect union." I believe in the Constitution and adhearing to it, but also the reinterpreting for contemporary issues. It simply a conflict of ideology between us as I do not believe in unregulated free markets. I also do concede that unchecked or uncriticized "progress" can lead to socialist or even fascist ideals. But to deny that conservative ideology has not led to tyranny and totoletarian states is simply blinding. You may be right that fascism has never been led directly from conservative ideology (albeit I maintain Hitler's promise to reverse Germany back to it's pre-WWI days is in fact conservative as is persecution of those that are different from the majority), the things that lead to fascism are in sync with modern conservative ideas and to not see the link is asinine. In the last eight years we have sacrificed a number of freedoms and "sheppishly" allowed our government to spy on us and arrest and detain without warrants and use torture. If these aren't steps to fascism...let's agree to disagree. :)

[jaguarr]

I understand that Palin is a Christian or what have you, but is there any video or audio evidence of her claiming to believe that the earth is 6,000 years old. Not all creationists believe in that theory. Christians tend to be all over the map, except for the few vital things (virgin birth, zombie jesus etc)

I'll be honest, I don't know if Palin is a Young-Earth Creationist or an Old-Earth Creationist. If she's a Young-Earth Creationist as most people are assuming (myself included), then yes, she does think the world is 6,000 years old. If she's an Old-Earth Creationist, then that could mean a couple of different things since that encompasses both Gap Creationism and Progressive Creationism. Gap Creationism isn't much better than Young-Earth Creationism; they think the world was old but life just sprang up all of a sudden, recently. No evolution process at all. None. Progressive Creationism is a weak argument to say that evolution happened but it really wasn't evolution; in other words it's a cop out and even more wishy-washy than the other Creationist ideas. None of these will be things the McCain campaign is going to want to talk about and they will definitely try to keep which sort of Creationist she is under wraps, I believe.

jag

[Hobodeluxe]

I have a friend who is a single mother. She had a difficult pregnancy and had to stop working. I paid her phone bill, rent, electric and vital bills, but after she gave birth she went back to work within days so she could catch up on bills. I will let her know that you find her a reprehensible human being.

By the way...what was initially reported as a 12 hour flight is now a 14 hour flight? Apparently the flight was actually 8 hours...which doesnt make it right...it just means that you are stretching the truth to make her look worse.

Sarah didn't have to go back for a while. She didn't have to worry about paying the bills,she had maternity leave and assistants that could cover for a while. over the phone and signing some papers brought over she could handle probably 99% of her work.

and the trip was in 3 legs 2 flights with one plane change and a ride by car to her hometown from the airport. She didn't go to her home in the capital with the NICU,She didn't get checked in Texas by a doctor,she didn't call her doctor and get approval for the flight, the airline was not aware she was pregnant much less in labor. Hell no one knew she was pregnant until she was like 5-6 months ,around the same time her daughter came down with mono for 5 months.


no she wanted to seem all tough and rough and ready frontierswoman for the press. either that or shes a paranoid control freak and didn't trust her own people

[jaguarr]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=a1uiw5Tqp4EM&refer=home

McCain Defends Sarah Palin as Some Alaskans Question His Choice

By Tony Hopfinger and Ken Fireman

Aug. 31 (Bloomberg) -- Senator John McCain defended Sarah Palin, his vice presidential choice, as a ``soul mate'' who will take on corruption in Washington, even as a growing chorus in the Alaska governor's home state questioned her credentials.

``She's a reformer,'' McCain, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, said today on Fox News Sunday. ``I have watched her for many years; I've seen her take on her own party.'' Asked whether Palin is the best person for the job, he said, ``Oh yeah.''

McCain and Palin will accept the presidential and vice presidential nominations at the Republican National Convention, which begins tomorrow in St. Paul, Minnesota.

``This is a person that will help me reform Washington,'' McCain said, adding, ``What this brings is a spirit of reform and change that is vital.''

Still, some Alaskans -- including a supporter of Palin's 2006 run for governor and a former staff member -- expressed reservations about the choice.

``She's not qualified, she doesn't have the judgment, to be next in line to the president of the United States,'' Larry Persily, who until June worked in the governor's Washington office as a congressional liaison, said in a phone interview yesterday.

A supporter of Palin's campaign for governor, Jim Whitaker, the Republican mayor of Fairbanks, also questioned Palin's readiness to serve as vice president in a phone interview yesterday.

`Avid Supporter'

Whitaker said that while he is ``still an avid supporter'' of Palin as governor, he will continue to back Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama.

Palin, 44, is less than halfway through her first term as governor. Before her election to that post, she served on a state commission that regulated the energy industry and was mayor of the town of Wasilla, which had an estimated population in 2007 of 9,780, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

Persily, who worked for three different governors in the state's Washington office, said he left the job on good terms with Palin. He said he left out of frustration because the state was ``fighting the same old wars'' on trying to open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil development.

`He Created Her'

Persily said Palin owed her election to the unpopularity of then-Governor Frank Murkowski, whom Palin defeated in the Republican primary by running on a platform of overhauling state government. ``He created her,'' Persily said. Murkowski declined to comment.

Two McCain backers who were mentioned as possible choices for the vice-presidential nomination expressed support for Palin today.

Connecticut Senator Joseph Lieberman, an independent, said on CBS's ``Face the Nation'' program that McCain made a ``bold choice'' in selecting Palin. ``This is about changing Washington so it works again,'' he said. ``John McCain has found a maverick who has done exactly the same thing at the state level that he's done at the federal level.''

McCain adviser Carly Fiorina said of Palin on CBS: ``This is a person of great accomplishment. I have heard from many women and they are truly excited about this pick.''

McCain contrasted what he said was Palin's willingness to take on senior Alaskan Republicans like Murkowski and Senator Ted Stevens with Obama's record.

A phone call to Palin spokesman Sharon Leighow requesting comment wasn't immediately returned.

`Executive by Nature'

Alaska Lieutenant Governor Sean Parnell defended Palin's readiness to serve as vice president. ``Of course she is,'' he told reporters on an Aug. 29 conference call. ``She is an executive by nature.''

Palin spokesman Bill McAllister said on the same call that Palin is older than John F. Kennedy was when he ran for president in 1960 and that ``of four people on two national tickets, she is the only one with executive experience.''

McCain, on Fox today, also sought to contrast Palin with his Democratic rival.

``Senator Obama has never taken on the leaders of his party,'' McCain said. ``She's been an independent spirit that has taken them on at every opportunity.''

Home-state newspapers have questioned McCain's choice. An Aug. 29 editorial in the Fairbanks News-Miner newspaper also raised questions about Palin's readiness for national office.

``Most people would acknowledge that, regardless of her charm and good intentions, Palin is not ready for the top job,'' the newspaper wrote. ``McCain seems to have put his political interests ahead of the nation's when he created the possibility that she might fill it.?

The Anchorage Daily News, the state's largest paper, noted in an editorial that Palin is enmeshed in a legislative investigation of her July 11 firing of the state's public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan. He has since asserted that he received pressure from Palin's family and administration to fire a state trooper involved in a contentious divorce from Palin's sister.

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

Ok, I'm only going to add a little more here. You learned all that in your Political Science class right? Which school? Just how Liberal is that School? Do you really think that Liberal American Acedemia is going to tell you that Hitler followed a path of ideology that stems from Liberalism? Buddy, you are in college, to learn how to ask questions, not repeat the historical talking points.

How was Hitler anywhere remotely Conservative or a Classical Liberal? How did he believe in Free Market? Was it when he took over Industry in Germany? Or was it when he Changed the Status Quo of Post WWI Germany? Was it when he enacted NEW laws detailing rights in Germany? He took over Germany by Revolution, Intellectual Revolution. And that is in part, defination of a Progressive Statist Facist. But because he happened to be slightly to the right of Italian Facism, he is taught to be a Conservative. But, how was he a Conservative?

He was slightly to the right of the Far Left, but not a Centrist, or anywhere near the right.

Which party between Democrat and Republican want bigger government, which party had members call for Nationalizing the Oil Companies, and healthcare? Which Party uses class warfare to attain its goals? Which party is clamoring the differences between Men and Women, Rich and Poor, Workers and Managment, and races? Sorry, but when I hear liberals spout off about the Rich being lazy, or confiscation of their wealth for no reason other than "Fairness", or Nationalizing ANYTHING that is private, I hear echos of Facism, Communism, and Marxism. When I hear a Politician's wife say "[Canidate] is going to require you to work, he is going to ask you to serve" I don't find that very appealing. I feel that isn't promoting Classical Liberalism, just the complete opposite of it. When I hear plans to "Lift the burden on the poor and middle-class", I hear "Proletariat vs the Bourgeosise", and I think, hmm... Who in history was for the "Workers"?
Who today is compounding the dangerous echos of the past?


Progressivism is a dangerous, dangerous thing. Because, to who's benifit is the "Progress"? By who's terms is this progress met? Who's definition of "Progress"? Yes. It is noble to want to be compassionate for the poor, the sick, and the hungry, but don't give the Government the tools to steal the wealth, control your health, and obtain nurishment, Intellectually or otherwise. They will control you. Give them the power, and they will make you "work for your freedom".

I won't comment any more on this, unless there is a dedicated thread for it.

ok Dude, I am onyl going to say this once.
again, this "liberal" ******** you keep slinging just doesn't match the reality of the matter.
first of all, Democrats have never called for "confiscation" of wealth, nor even "redistribution" of wealth.
you have said that they have, but sadly, you saying doesn't mean that it's true.
it would be like me saying that, since Bush never had a tax hike during war times, opposing years of wisdom and sending the US economy into the ****ter ( along with many, many other bad calls on his part) the GOP called for the "destruction of the middle class".
so let's quit it with the rhetoric for a sec. do you know how Hitler consolidated his power in Germany?
the "enabling act" which , after the Reichstag fire which gave Hitler plenary powers. even though these powers were directly against items in the constitution.
hmmmm, have I seen that in the GOP?
let me think....why YES! I have.:cwink: have you?
also, Hitler and his Nazi party arrested members of the Communist and Social democratic parties, and subsequently dissolved them.

:o whoops.

also, Hitler gathered more support by spouting off about protecting Germany from "the threat of communism".
wow, sure sounds far left to me, apparently also making Ronald Reagan a "lefty"..again, weird.
plus, the fact that Hitler said that "men were the breadwinners" and women should stay home and bear children?
right out of the leftist playbook right? that's why the GOP and the rest of them are always saying that "feminists" are this, or feminists are that.

plus, the whole "taking over Germany ny intellectual revolution"?
seriously, I don't know what books you are reading, but he strong armed his way into his position.
again, using a "national tragedy" and a call to unity for the safety of the fatherland against foreign threats.

uh...yeah, sounds like a leftist to me, all that he is missing is a cool Hippie name like Adolf "goodvibes" Hitler or something like that.

:huh: do we like....live in the same planet or something?

[DACrowe]

Well, she had done it 4 times before. Its not entirely impossible that she is very good at enduring the pain. Plus in early stages, its not that bad.



No. There's no way to prove it and CNN is not going to run a story with no proof. No one wants to be this year's Dan Rather.

Indeed. It sounds like idol gossip to me like Michelle said "**** whitey." Albeit, they have no problem running "Some think Obama is a muslim" and "Is it a terrorist 'fist bump?'" -- but that's Fox News for ya'.

BTW a great thing about the whole CBS debacle is if you go through the facts they actually did have some proof with the secretary remembering that her boss called W. lazy and always skipping service. Albeit that is nothing conclusive. However, running a false document (apparently made by some left fringe political group) with a modern MS Word Font is hilarious. Rather bah-ed his way to the sacrificial table that day.

[Excel]

Oh come on yall; we better than to attack her for being a Mom or say things like "Maybe the childs not hers".

For real, cool it. Whats it Hilldog been saying on the subject?

[Matt]

Oh come on yall; we better than to attack her for being a Mom or say things like "Maybe the childs not hers".

For real, cool it. Whats it Hilldog been saying on the subject?

But if it is true...should it not be addressed? The more I look into this, the more there seems to be some merit behind it.

[SuBe]

Sparky, 2 things:

1. I said I won't comment on it anymore. I don't want to pollute this thread.
2. I'm dead to you. Remember :cwink:

[Excel]

But if it is true...should it not be addressed? The more I look into this, the more there seems to be some merit behind it.

Well whats the merit? Why would anybody fake a pregnancy, only to give birth to a baby with DS? I just watched my wife go through it, why would anybody go through all the time and trouble to do that instead of just having a baby?

[StrainedEyes]

But if it is true...should it not be addressed? The more I look into this, the more there seems to be some merit behind it.

Yeah, I was reading up on it last night. It's not impossible.

Of course, like Edward's cheating, it shouldn't be the public's business, nor should it hurt her career if true, but it would.

[Hobodeluxe]

John you old hound dog you (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RN5xbWtNSU)

[StrainedEyes]

Well whats the merit? Why would anybody fake a pregnancy, only to give birth to a baby with DS? I just watched my wife go through it, why would anybody go through all the time and trouble to do that instead of just having a baby?

If it's true, she was protecting both her and her daughter's image.

[Matt]

Well whats the merit? Why would anybody fake a pregnancy, only to give birth to a baby with DS? I just watched my wife go through it, why would anybody go through all the time and trouble to do that instead of just having a baby?


Because a conservative whose entire career is built on the foundation of family values would have her career destroyed by her sixteen year old daughter having a baby.

And here is the merit.

1) Palin took an alleged 14 hour trip while in labor while showing no signs of discomfort.

2) Those closest to Palin did not know she was pregnant until she was 7 months.

3) The pictures of the daughter certainly make it seem like she is the pregnant one. She gained weight in all the right places for a pregnant woman.

Of course, its all circumstantial, but never the less, it is there.

And just out of curiousity..do you mean Dicaprio and Lex Luthor?

[SuperT]

Food for thought...

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4890/palinuv8.jpg

On left: Sarah during a previous pregnancy; has to be very close to having it there
On the right: Sarah six weeks before she had Trig

o_0

[Excel]

Because a conservative whose entire career is built on the foundation of family values would have her career destroyed by her sixteen year old daughter having a baby.

And here is the merit.

1) Palin took an alleged 14 hour trip while in labor while showing no signs of discomfort.

2) Those closest to Palin did not know she was pregnant until she was 7 months.

3) The pictures of the daughter certainly make it seem like she is the pregnant one. She gained weight in all the right places for a pregnant woman.

Of course, its all circumstantial, but never the less, it is there.

Oh I see, you guys think it was her daughters? Thats more believeable; than yes thats worth looking into. Pics of her daughters?

and yup, leo for lex!

[Matt]

Yeah, I was reading up on it last night. It's not impossible.

Of course, like Edward's cheating, it shouldn't be the public's business, nor should it hurt her career if true, but it would.

I'd say its a bit different than Edwards affair. This is a public figure, lying to those she represents to preserve her own image. I mean, it is an elaborate hoax. Its kinda the public's business.

[Hobodeluxe]

Oh come on yall; we better than to attack her for being a Mom or say things like "Maybe the childs not hers".

For real, cool it. Whats it Hilldog been saying on the subject?

probably having her people verify all the facts before she says anything.
then develop a sympathetic yet concerned position on her judgment.
or they'll trot out a bunch of ob-gyns to say how risky that flight was.

So far they've gotten away with lying about her bridge to nowhere position on every network but ABC and the lie about ANWR only being a 2000 acre area when it's 1.5 million. go go corporate media!!!!

[Matt]

Oh I see, you guys think it was her daughters? Thats more believeable; than yes thats worth looking into. Pics of her daughters?

and yup, leo for lex!

Thats the worst casting ever :o

[Excel]

No way. As a young, obsseessed, driven Lex, DiCap is perfect! Aint you seen Aviator?

[JackMercy]

Re: The article Jag posted:


McCain Defends Sarah Palin as Some Alaskans Question His Choice

By Tony Hopfinger and Ken Fireman

Aug. 31 (Bloomberg) -- Senator John McCain defended Sarah Palin, his vice presidential choice, as a "soul mate'' who will take on corruption in Washington, even as a growing chorus in the Alaska governor's home state questioned her credentials.

"She's a reformer,'' McCain, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, said today on Fox News Sunday. "I have watched her for many years; I've seen her take on her own party.'' Asked whether Palin is the best person for the job, he said, "Oh yeah.''

McCain and Palin will accept the presidential and vice presidential nominations at the Republican National Convention, which begins tomorrow in St. Paul, Minnesota.

"This is a person that will help me reform Washington,'' McCain said, adding...

Still, some Alaskans -- including a supporter of Palin's 2006 run for governor and a former staff member -- expressed reservations about the choice.

...

Whitaker said that while he is ``still an avid supporter'' of Palin as governor, he will continue to back Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama.

...

Persily, who worked for three different governors in the state's Washington office, said he left the job on good terms with Palin. He said he left out of frustration because the state was "fighting the same old wars'' on trying to open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil development.

`He Created Her'

Persily said Palin owed her election to the unpopularity of then-Governor Frank Murkowski, whom Palin defeated in the Republican primary by running on a platform of overhauling state government. "He created her,'' Persily said. Murkowski declined to comment.

Two McCain backers who were mentioned as possible choices for the vice-presidential nomination expressed support for Palin today.

...

McCain adviser Carly Fiorina said of Palin on CBS: ``This is a person of great accomplishment. I have heard from many women and they are truly excited about this pick.''

McCain contrasted what he said was Palin's willingness to take on senior Alaskan Republicans like Murkowski and Senator Ted Stevens with Obama's record.

A phone call to Palin spokesman Sharon Leighow requesting comment wasn't immediately returned.

`Executive by Nature'

Alaska Lieutenant Governor Sean Parnell defended Palin's readiness to serve as vice president. ``Of course she is,'' he told reporters on an Aug. 29 conference call. "She is an executive by nature.''

Palin spokesman Bill McAllister said on the same call that Palin is older than John F. Kennedy was when he ran for president in 1960 and that "of four people on two national tickets, she is the only one with executive experience.''

McCain, on Fox today, also sought to contrast Palin with his Democratic rival.

"Senator Obama has never taken on the leaders of his party,'' McCain said. "She's been an independent spirit that has taken them on at every opportunity.''

Home-state newspapers have questioned McCain's choice. An Aug. 29 editorial in the Fairbanks News-Miner newspaper also raised questions about Palin's readiness for national office.

``Most people would acknowledge that, regardless of her charm and good intentions, Palin is not ready for the top job,'' the newspaper wrote. ``McCain seems to have put his political interests ahead of the nation's when he created the possibility that she might fill it.?

The Anchorage Daily News, the state's largest paper, noted in an editorial that Palin is enmeshed in a legislative investigation of her July 11 firing of the state's public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan. He has since asserted that he received pressure from Palin's family and administration to fire a state trooper involved in a contentious divorce from Palin's sister.
-------------------------------------------------------------------



Interpret the first three bolds in a certain way, and Ol' Johnny sounds like an obsessive fantasist.

You've "watched her for many years"... but never thought to introduce yourself?


"This is a person who will help me reform Washington." ...into a city of Trophy Wives who serve me unconditionally.


"Fighting the same old wars"

...Sound familiar?


"He created her."

OK, so now we know why she believes that Creationism should be taught in schools!


"I have heard from many women and they are truly excited about this pick."

--Apparently not Cindy's half-sis, and Palin's own Mother-in-law, who have both already stated to reporters that they are voting for Obama!

By the way, does Sharon Leighow get upset at being called a spokesman?

And why wasn't she returning phone calls for comment, because she was busy taking pictures of Palin's family off of the Alaskan Government's website?


"She is an executive by nature."

So that's why she went back to work three days after having her fifth baby (if that even happened)?


"She is the only one with executive experience" ...non-negotiating with Polar Bears...


"Senator Obama has never taken on the leaders of his party." ...uh, perhaps he actually wants to talk to people to work things out, rather than just fight them?


"She has...taken them on at every opportunity."

In other words, she's "difficult"...

[StrainedEyes]

She is in for a rocky few months.

[The Senator]

So apparently Cindy McCain is repeating the moronic "Palin lives so close to Russia so that has to count for something" line in regards to her foreign policy experience.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/Wilhelm-Scream/HYPE/superrolleyesua2.gif

[Superman]

Food for thought...

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4890/palinuv8.jpg

On left: Sarah during a previous pregnancy; has to be very close to having it there
On the right: Sarah six weeks before she had Trig

o_0Now THAT'S interesting.http://smilies.vidahost.com/cwm/3dlil/eek13.gif

[SuperT]

So apparently Cindy McCain is repeating the moronic "Palin lives so close to Russia so that has to count for something" line in regards to her foreign policy experience.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/Wilhelm-Scream/HYPE/superrolleyesua2.gif

Does anyone even LIVE in the part of Russia that Alaska is close to?!?!:huh:

[Superman]

Does anyone even LIVE in the part of Russia that Alaska is close to?!?!:huh:Yeah, Russian eskimos.:oldrazz: :woot:

[JackMercy]

She is in for a rocky few months.

And we're only 48 hours in... At this rate, by Wednesday, we'll have enough material for three tell-all books!

:word:

[Excel]

So apparently Cindy McCain is repeating the moronic "Palin lives so close to Russia so that has to count for something" line in regards to her foreign policy experience.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/Wilhelm-Scream/HYPE/superrolleyesua2.gif

2zP8uFPWxaA

...

[X Knight]

ok....I found this little story regarding the pregnancy issue. Here's the link:

http://www.polartrec.com/node/3944

The key sentence in the author's post is:

"Of course I had to check out the “Hottest Governor in the US” and quickly turned to see her pregnant (she has since had her baby) with bags and daughter in tote."

Read it and take it for what it's worth.....

[Superman]

2zP8uFPWxaA

...If this is the best they can come up with then Obama has nothing to worry about.:whatever:

[Comicfilmer]

Cindy's a dunce.

[StrainedEyes]

ok....I found this little story regarding the pregnancy issue. Here's the link:

http://www.polartrec.com/node/3944

The key sentence in the author's post is:

"Of course I had to check out the “Hottest Governor in the US” and quickly turned to see her pregnant (she has since had her baby) with bags and daughter in tote."

Read it and take it for what it's worth.....

That's not really that debunking.

[X Knight]

ummm....the DailyKos blog can HARDLY be expected to "report" OBJECTIVE stories when it comes to conservatives and republicans.

If the DailyKos blog is the source of this story.....then that for me immediately reduces its legitimacy.

[X Knight]

here's a link to an AP story covering the birth of her 5th child:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/west/view.bg?articleid=1088213

[The Senator]

ummm....the DailyKos blog can HARDLY be expected to "report" OBJECTIVE stories when it comes to conservatives and republicans.

If the DailyKos blog is the source of this story.....then that for me immediately reduces its legitimacy.

What story are you talking about?

Yeah, I got my information through Daily Kos-- which linked to an article on Yahoo from the Associated Press, which said the exact same thing:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080831/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_convention_rdp;_ylt=AugUqHH0nKdVbtD3oZzZUG6s0N UE


McCain's wife, Cindy, joined the ranks of the defenders. "The experience that she comes from is with what she's done in the government. And also, remember: Alaska is the closest part of our continent to Russia. So, it's not as if she doesn't understand what's at stake here," she said on ABC's "This Week."

[Excel]

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/west/view.bg?articleid=1088213

Her contractions let up enough for her to fly home on Alaska Airlines to deliver her baby in Alaska, Leighow said.


Um, what? Are you it wasnt that their daughter was in Labor in Alaska and she had to fly up there...

[X Knight]

jmanspice, sorry for the confusion.

I was not addressing you or the story about Cindy's McCain's comments.

I was addressing Geo7877, who responded to my post re the pregnancy debate, saying that he/she first read the story from the daily kos. Geo also provided a link to that story, which it seems has now been removed from his post....

[Malice]

Someone fill me in, what the issue with her and a pregnancy?

[kainedamo]

Undecides don't like the Palin pick.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/undecideds-dont.html

I really think this is a disaster for John McCain.

[Gilpesh]

Someone fill me in, what the issue with her and a pregnancy?

There's 'evidence' that points to a huge conspiracy in which she covered up her daughter's pregnancy by calling it hers...


But the problem is that the 'evidence' is just enough that you can't just laugh it off.

[X Knight]

there are rumors ( started by left-leaning blogs like DailyKos, it seems ) spreading throughout the net claiming that Palin is not the mother of her 5th child ( Trig - the one with Downs syndrome ). Instead, Palin is really the grandma and her eldest daughter is really the mom.

the "proof" or "evidence" of this is photos which show Palin "not looking that pregnant" during her pregnancy while her daughter sports a "slightly pregnant bulge" in her tummy.

Also, there are ppl who say that Palin's 5th pregnancy caught them by surprise, as she really didn't look that pregnant.

In addition, there is also the "issue" that her water broke while she was giving a speech in Texas, then she made an 8 hour or so flight back to Alaska to give birth. ppl are questioning her judgement over this, claiming she's unfit to be a mother....or if she was really the mother at all.....

[Excel]

In addittion to the fact that she gave birth a month early, she was half the size she normally was the other 4 times she was pregnant, and her daughter got quite large.

[X Knight]

is their a pic of her daughter getting "quite large?"

oh....and what does giving birth a month early have to do with it?????

I was born a month early........??????????

[Excel]

http://media.adn.com/smedia/2008/03/09/01/687-3504039.standalone.prod_affiliate.7.jpg

That woman is not pregnagnt, and thats a few weeks before the baby was born. The daughter in question is on the right in green.

[X Knight]

ok....with all this talk about how Palin lacks the experience and qualifications to be VP, considering she was only mayor of a "small town of 9,000," well here's something that I found interesting.

The person giving the speech was praising mayors for being on the "frontline." That person.......BARACK OBAMA!

http://www.barackobama.com/2007/05/05/remarks_of_senator_barack_obam_13.php

The key phrases from that speech:

"Whether it's a small town or a big city, the government that's closest to the people is the one the people count on the most."

"Our mayors are on the frontlines when it comes to housing, education, job creation, and finding new ways to strengthen our families and communities. They are some of the hardest working people in America and when a disaster strikes: a Katrina, a shooting, or a six alarm blaze -- it's city hall we lean on. It's city hall we call first. And it's city hall we depend on to get us through the tough times."

It seems that Obama was addressing the National Conference of Black Mayors with this speech.

Nevertheless, it also seems that Obama was praising the importance of ALL mayors across our country......unless, of course, you are a mayor of a "small town of only 9,00." :whatever:

[Matt]

In addittion to the fact that she gave birth a month early, she was half the size she normally was the other 4 times she was pregnant, and her daughter got quite large.

And the daughter was out of school for months citing a case of "really bad mono."

[Matt]

Undecides don't like the Palin pick.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/undecideds-dont.html

I really think this is a disaster for John McCain.

Too early to say. Lets see how the convention goes first.

[X Knight]

oh.....and here's Obama a year later speaking to the US Conference of Mayors:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/stateupdates/gG5R7x

Key highlights:

"we were focused on the place we knew could actually do the most, the fastest, to make a difference in our community – and that was the Mayor’s Office."

"It was the Mayor’s Office we turned to when we wanted to open a job training center to put people back to work. It was the Mayor’s Office we turned to when we wanted to make sure city housing was safe to live in. And it’s the Mayors Office that Americans across this country rely on every day."

"it’s City Hall we lean on, it’s City Hall we call first, and City Hall we depend on to get us through tough times. Because whether it’s a small town or a big city, the government that people count on most is the one that’s closest to the people."

[The Senator]

Oh man, this would be amazing if it turned out Palin's daughter had the child...

[lazur]

Oh man, this would be amazing if it turned out Palin's daughter had the child...

It should disqualify her. If she's that dishonest in order to steal the limelight and make herself out to sound like a saint, McCain needs to axe her and select another VP - hopefully this time a woman with more experience.

[Gilpesh]

Oh man, this would be amazing if it turned out Palin's daughter had the child...

It could just blow over like Craig's bathroom encounter and Cheney's "F**k you" on the floor of Congress.

[Shifty]

there are rumors ( started by left-leaning blogs like DailyKos, it seems ) spreading throughout the net claiming that Palin is not the mother of her 5th child ( Trig - the one with Downs syndrome ). Instead, Palin is really the grandma and her eldest daughter is really the mom.

the "proof" or "evidence" of this is photos which show Palin "not looking that pregnant" during her pregnancy while her daughter sports a "slightly pregnant bulge" in her tummy.

Also, there are ppl who say that Palin's 5th pregnancy caught them by surprise, as she really didn't look that pregnant.

In addition, there is also the "issue" that her water broke while she was giving a speech in Texas, then she made an 8 hour or so flight back to Alaska to give birth. ppl are questioning her judgement over this, claiming she's unfit to be a mother....or if she was really the mother at all.....

Sounds like a plot from Law & Order:SVU.

[The Senator]

It should disqualify her. If she's that dishonest in order to steal the limelight and make herself out to sound like a saint, McCain needs to axe her and select another VP - hopefully this time a woman with more experience.

Can you say Eagleton/ Shriver all over again?

I don't know if McCain would pick another running mate... especially a woman...

[X Knight]

oh...and while we're getting all of our news from the DailyKos.....here's something else re the "pregnancy-gate":

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/29/204244/865/169/579531

Key highlights:

"The press did a pretty good job of following up on the substitute child rumor. It proved baseless."

"Given that Erickson was blunt (if not a bit unimpressed) in his evaluation of Palin during the chat this afternoon, I think it's fair to say that if he says the rumors were investigated and debunked, that should be that."

read it and decide.........:whatever:

[EdRyder]

Yes ,.. "baseless" :whatever:
I dont think anyone has had a case of mono that lasted eight months since the discovery of Penicillin in the friggin 20's but ,whatever.:oldrazz:

[Excel]

And the daughter was out of school for months citing a case of "really bad mono."

Whaaaaat?

So let me get this straight.

-Palin doesnt look pregnant at all. Her daughter does.
-Palin is still traveling all over the country, even when shes 8 months pregnant (you can do this if the doc says its cool, my wife took a trip with Australia when she was 7 months) while her daighetr misses months of school
-her water breaks in etxas, yet shes good to fly all the way back to ALASKA a ****ing 8 hour flight?
-Palin is seen out 3 days after the pregnancy, looking EXACTLY the same. Her daughters a mystery.

there has to be more to it because it seems way too obvious.

[Hobodeluxe]

I've noticed some people who should know better claiming that bringing up Gov. Palin's troopergate scandal is tantamount to making a victim of or defending her slimeball ex-brother-in-law who allegedly once used a taser on his stepson.
That's awfully foolish. So I thought I'd put together a post explaining why.
The person in question is state trooper Mike Wooten -- Palin's ex-brother-in-law who's embroiled in a bitter custody and divorce battle with Palin's sister. Back in the second week of August, well before Palin became a national political figure, TPMMuckraker was reporting on this story (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/ak_gov_says_staffer_pressed_for_troopers_firing.ph p). And as part of the reporting we tried to get a handle on just how bad a guy Wooten was. Most people who are familiar with the ugliness that often spills out of custody and divorce cases know to take accusations arising out of the course of them with a grain of salt unless you know a lot about the people involved. And if you look closely at the case there are numerous reasons to question the picture drawn by the Palin family. Regardless, we proceeded on the assumption that Wooten really was a rotten guy because the truth is that it wasn't relevant to the investigation of Palin.
Let's review what happened.
The Palin family had a feud with Wooten prior to her becoming governor. They put together a list of 14 accusations which they took to the state police to investigate -- a list that ranged from the quite serious to the truly absurd. The state police did an investigation, decided that 5 of the charges had some merit and suspended Wooten for ten days -- a suspension later reduced to five days. The Palin's weren't satisfied but there wasn't much they could do.
When Palin became governor they went for another bite at the apple. Palin, her husband and several members of her staff began pressuring (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washingtonpostinvestigations/2008/08/exclusive_chief_fired_by_palin.html?hpid=topnews) Public Safety Commissioner, Walt Monegan -- a respected former Chief of the Anchorage police department -- to can Wooten. Monegan resisted, arguing that the official process regarding Wooten was closed. And there was nothing more that could be done. In fact, during one of the conversations in which Palin's husband Todd was putting on the squeeze, Monegan told Todd Palin, "You can't head hunt like this. What you need to do is back off, because if the trooper does make a mistake, and it is a terminable offense, it can look like political interference."
Eventually, Palin got fed up and fired Monegan from his job. (Palin claims, not credibly, that she fired Monegan over general differences in law enforcement priorities.) This is an important point. Wooten never got fired. To the best of my knowledge, he's is still on the job. The central bad act was firing the state's top police official because he refused to bend to political pressure from the governor and her family to fire a public employee against whom the governor was pursuing a vendetta -- whether the vendetta was justified or not.
Soon after this, questions were raised in the state about Monegan's firing and he eventually came forward and said he believed he'd been fired for not giving in to pressure to fire Wooten.
After Monegan made his accusations, Palin insisted there was no truth whatsoever to his claims. Nonetheless, a bipartisan committee of the state legislature approved an investigation. In response, Palin asked the Attorney General to start his own investigation which many in the state interpreted (http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/492077.html) as an effort to either keep tabs on or tamper with the legislature's investigation. Again, very questionable judgment in someone who aspires to be first in line to the presidency.
The Attorney General's investigation quickly turned up evidence that Palin's initial denials were false. Multiple members of her staff had raised Wooten's employment with Monegan. Indeed, the state police had a recording of one of her deputies (http://www.adn.com/monegan/story/492964.html) pushing Monegan to fire Wooten. That evidence forced Palin to change her story. Palin said that this was the first she'd heard of it and insisted the deputy wasn't acting at her behest, even though the trascript of the recorded call clearly suggested that he was. (Hear the audio (http://www.gov.state.ak.us/audio/FrankBaileyCDaudio.mp3) here.)
Just yesterday, Monegan gave an interview to the Washington Post in which he said that not only Palin's aides, but Palin's husband and Palin herself had repeatedly raised the Wooten issue with him and pressured him to fire him. And now he says (http://www.adn.com/front/story/510080.html) he has emails that Palin sent him about the matter. (In an interesting sidelight, that may end up telling us a lot, Monegan says no one from the McCain campaign ever contacted him in the vetting process.)
The investigator appointed by the state legislature began trying to arrange a time to depose Gov. Palin last week -- in other words, in the final days before her selection.
So let's put this all together.
We rely on elected officials not to use the power of their office to pursue personal agendas or vendettas. It's called an abuse of power. There is ample evidence that Palin used her power as governor to get her ex-brother-in-law fired. When his boss refused to fire him, she fired his boss. She first denied Monegan's claims of pressure to fire Wooten and then had to amend her story when evidence proved otherwise. The available evidence now suggests that she 1) tried to have an ex-relative fired from his job for personal reasons, something that was clearly inappropriate, and perhaps illegal, though possibly understandable in human terms, 2) fired a state official for not himself acting inappropriately by firing the relative, 3) lied to the public about what happened and 4) continues to lie about what happened.
These are, to put it mildly, not the traits or temperament you want in someone who could hold the executive power of the federal government.

-josh marshall

some video from the local news up there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UojMnCgqVA)

[Excel]

Yes ,.. "baseless" :whatever:
I dont think anyone has had a case of mono that lasted eight months since the discovery of Penicillin in the friggin 20's but ,whatever.:oldrazz:


Nope. I had it for 7 weeks and was good to go after that and that was the longest Id ever heard of it. 8 MONTHS?!?

[X Knight]

Yes ,.. "baseless" :whatever:
I dont think anyone has had a case of mono that lasted eight months since the discovery of Penicillin in the friggin 20's but ,whatever.:oldrazz:


so....when the likes of the DailyKos float a story claiming the "pregnancy scandal" is true....you all latch onto it, accept the story as true, and then run with it all over the net....proudly proclaiming the "evidence" to prove it.

BUT.....when the DailyKos puts out another post saying the claims are "baseless" and that we should "move on" from the story......you are hesistant to accept that, instead still pointing to "evidence" and "circumstances" that the story is true.......:whatever:

[EdRyder]

Super-Bats I dont know if the story is true or not. I do know that being taken out of school for eight months over a case of mono is ridiculous.

[X Knight]

Super-Bats I dont know if the story is true or not. I do know that being taken out of school for eight months over a case of mono is ridiculous.

ok....fair enough...

[hitmanyr2k]

double post*

[hitmanyr2k]

I had mono once along with a bad case of bronchiitis...those 3 weeks were some of the most miserable weeks of my life. My throat was so bad the only thing I could swallow was jello and it was a chore getting that down. I couldn't imagine having that for months lol.

[Spider-Bite]

Undecides don't like the Palin pick.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/undecideds-dont.html

I really think this is a disaster for John McCain.

YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!:woot::woot::woot: This the best news I heard all day!

[10CentAdventure]

You know what I don't even care about any so called scandals that she may or may not be caught up in. She has absolutely no experiance what so ever to justify her being qualified for Vice President. She is a far right extremist and furthermore has displayed a total lack of understanding towards the role of the Vice President. Her experience on the PTA was touted, I kid you not, as foriegn policy experience on one of the morning shows today. The ****ING PTA! You people want me to believe that a seventy two year old man who is running for what is concivably the most stressfull job in the world, a seventy two year old man with a record of health problems, a seventy two year old man who was tortured which often has lasting heath effects has just put a woman whose foriegn policy expertise prior to being put on the ticket was living near a former enemy and current antagonist of ours and being on the GOD DAMNED PTA, is a wise decision? If John McCain wins: This. Woman. Is. A. Seventy. Two. Year. Old. Heartbeat. Away. From. The. Presidency.!!!

That of course is leaving out that she has no grasp of any other issue outside of creationsim and drill, drill, drill! I as an American am offended.

[Gilpesh]

I've noticed some people who should know better claiming that bringing up Gov. Palin's troopergate scandal is tantamount to making a victim of or defending her slimeball ex-brother-in-law who allegedly once used a taser on his stepson.
That's awfully foolish. So I thought I'd put together a post explaining why.
The person in question is state trooper Mike Wooten -- Palin's ex-brother-in-law who's embroiled in a bitter custody and divorce battle with Palin's sister. Back in the second week of August, well before Palin became a national political figure, TPMMuckraker was reporting on this story (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/ak_gov_says_staffer_pressed_for_troopers_firing.ph p). And as part of the reporting we tried to get a handle on just how bad a guy Wooten was. Most people who are familiar with the ugliness that often spills out of custody and divorce cases know to take accusations arising out of the course of them with a grain of salt unless you know a lot about the people involved. And if you look closely at the case there are numerous reasons to question the picture drawn by the Palin family. Regardless, we proceeded on the assumption that Wooten really was a rotten guy because the truth is that it wasn't relevant to the investigation of Palin.
Let's review what happened.
The Palin family had a feud with Wooten prior to her becoming governor. They put together a list of 14 accusations which they took to the state police to investigate -- a list that ranged from the quite serious to the truly absurd. The state police did an investigation, decided that 5 of the charges had some merit and suspended Wooten for ten days -- a suspension later reduced to five days. The Palin's weren't satisfied but there wasn't much they could do.
When Palin became governor they went for another bite at the apple. Palin, her husband and several members of her staff began pressuring (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washingtonpostinvestigations/2008/08/exclusive_chief_fired_by_palin.html?hpid=topnews) Public Safety Commissioner, Walt Monegan -- a respected former Chief of the Anchorage police department -- to can Wooten. Monegan resisted, arguing that the official process regarding Wooten was closed. And there was nothing more that could be done. In fact, during one of the conversations in which Palin's husband Todd was putting on the squeeze, Monegan told Todd Palin, "You can't head hunt like this. What you need to do is back off, because if the trooper does make a mistake, and it is a terminable offense, it can look like political interference."
Eventually, Palin got fed up and fired Monegan from his job. (Palin claims, not credibly, that she fired Monegan over general differences in law enforcement priorities.) This is an important point. Wooten never got fired. To the best of my knowledge, he's is still on the job. The central bad act was firing the state's top police official because he refused to bend to political pressure from the governor and her family to fire a public employee against whom the governor was pursuing a vendetta -- whether the vendetta was justified or not.
Soon after this, questions were raised in the state about Monegan's firing and he eventually came forward and said he believed he'd been fired for not giving in to pressure to fire Wooten.
After Monegan made his accusations, Palin insisted there was no truth whatsoever to his claims. Nonetheless, a bipartisan committee of the state legislature approved an investigation. In response, Palin asked the Attorney General to start his own investigation which many in the state interpreted (http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/492077.html) as an effort to either keep tabs on or tamper with the legislature's investigation. Again, very questionable judgment in someone who aspires to be first in line to the presidency.
The Attorney General's investigation quickly turned up evidence that Palin's initial denials were false. Multiple members of her staff had raised Wooten's employment with Monegan. Indeed, the state police had a recording of one of her deputies (http://www.adn.com/monegan/story/492964.html) pushing Monegan to fire Wooten. That evidence forced Palin to change her story. Palin said that this was the first she'd heard of it and insisted the deputy wasn't acting at her behest, even though the trascript of the recorded call clearly suggested that he was. (Hear the audio (http://www.gov.state.ak.us/audio/FrankBaileyCDaudio.mp3) here.)
Just yesterday, Monegan gave an interview to the Washington Post in which he said that not only Palin's aides, but Palin's husband and Palin herself had repeatedly raised the Wooten issue with him and pressured him to fire him. And now he says (http://www.adn.com/front/story/510080.html) he has emails that Palin sent him about the matter. (In an interesting sidelight, that may end up telling us a lot, Monegan says no one from the McCain campaign ever contacted him in the vetting process.)
The investigator appointed by the state legislature began trying to arrange a time to depose Gov. Palin last week -- in other words, in the final days before her selection.
So let's put this all together.
We rely on elected officials not to use the power of their office to pursue personal agendas or vendettas. It's called an abuse of power. There is ample evidence that Palin used her power as governor to get her ex-brother-in-law fired. When his boss refused to fire him, she fired his boss. She first denied Monegan's claims of pressure to fire Wooten and then had to amend her story when evidence proved otherwise. The available evidence now suggests that she 1) tried to have an ex-relative fired from his job for personal reasons, something that was clearly inappropriate, and perhaps illegal, though possibly understandable in human terms, 2) fired a state official for not himself acting inappropriately by firing the relative, 3) lied to the public about what happened and 4) continues to lie about what happened.
These are, to put it mildly, not the traits or temperament you want in someone who could hold the executive power of the federal government.

-josh marshall

some video from the local news up there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UojMnCgqVA)

There goes the claim that she will fight corruption. Unless she wants the glass house in Washington coming down.

[X Knight]

You know what I don't even care about any so called scandals that she may or may not be caught up in. She has absolutely no experiance what so ever to justify her being qualified for Vice President. She is a far right extremist and furthermore has displayed a total lack of understanding towards the role of the Vice President. Her experience on the PTA was touted, I kid you not, as foriegn policy experience on one of the morning shows today. The ****ING PTA! You people want me to believe that a seventy two year old man who is running for what is concivably the most stressfull job in the world, a seventy two year old man with a record of health problems, a seventy two year old man who was tortured which often has lasting heath effects has just put a woman whose foriegn policy expertise prior to being put on the ticket was living near a former enemy and current antagonist of ours and being on the GOD DAMNED PTA, is a wise decision? If John McCain wins: This. Woman. Is. A. Seventy. Two. Year. Old. Heartbeat. Away. From. The. Presidency.!!!

That of course is leaving out that she has no grasp of any other issue outside of creationsim and drill, drill, drill! I as an American am offended.

and Obama is qualified to be PRESIDENT ( on DAY ONE ) because of....................??????

[JackMercy]

Lets see how the convention goes first.

...if there is a convention.

Monday's already canceled.

Here's another jewel to add to Palin's crown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkydrUnBZE

[hitmanyr2k]

and Obama is qualified to be PRESIDENT ( on DAY ONE ) because of....................??????

I'm swinging Obama's way for one reason....he'll have Joe Biden in his ear. I trust Biden more than anyone in this entire campaign. If Obama had picked anyone else as a running mate (including Hillary) I would have cast him to the depths of hell.

McCain had a fighting chance to swing me back his way and he completely dropped the ball. I consider his choice for VP to be rushed and foolish. I can't in good conscience vote for someone his age when I have doubts his #2 can assume the duties if something bad goes down. The VP slot is more than relevant these days.

[X Knight]

I'm swinging Obama's way for one reason....he'll have Joe Biden in his ear. I trust Biden more than anyone in this entire campaign. If Obama had picked anyone else as a running mate (including Hillary) I would have cast him to the depths of hell.

McCain had a fighting chance to swing me back his way and he completely dropped the ball. I consider his choice for VP to be rushed and foolish. I can't in good conscience vote for someone his age when I have doubts his #2 can assume the duties if something bad goes down. The VP slot is more than relevant these days.

that, my friend, is at least a fair and reasonable response.

we disagree totally.....but that was a fair response....

[SuBe]

Deep breath...I don't think we should explore this much more deeply. This is not really an argument of history as I was trying to make it. It has become more one of theory. You obviously subscribe to classical liberalism/what conservatism is supposed to be and I'm going to guess you are a big proponent of laissez-faire free markets.

I will say that I was arguing in the modern sense of the word "liberal" which today is synonymous with progressive compared to our modern appreciation for conservative. Not how they would have been viewed in the 17th and 18th centuries.

I think it is unfair to use free market as proof that Republicans were not a liberal or "progressive" party in the 19th century, when government regulation of business was much smaller as the Federal government did believe in a more free market capitalism and each generation the federal government, particularly the executive branch (originally secondary to the legislative) took more and more power. But in our modern understanding of liberal vs. conservative it boils down to changing the status quo. Republicans wanted to make others think like they do, which can be damning or not. They at first wanted to contain slavery to the south and when the war became deeply entrenched, they aimed to finally abolish the institution from existence in the Union. They wanted to punish the south, but also change it into a more "American" place with Reconstruction. The Democrats, who were by modern definition the conservative party, fought viscously against this. And after the rather dubious election of 1876 and under-the-table dealings that ended Reconstruction southern Democrats did try to go back to the way things were. Do you know of the Wilmington Riots of 1898, where they overthrew the black citizenship? Democrats were the party of segregation and the whitewashing of American history in the 1890s that led to Jim Crow and the "Gone with the Wind" mythology.

Government regulation became more prevalent after REPUBLICAN Teddy Roosevelt began his crusade of trust busting and destroying monopolies and going after the rich. While biased and bad laws allowed these monopolies, especially in the railroad industry, the form of regulation Roosevelt enacted was entirely new. As was his reaction to the public outcry over Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle," in which he began food and sanitation regulations. This was followed by fellow Republican president, William Taft. In fact Roosevelt's somewhat pathological hatred for Taft is what began tearing the Republicans apart, especially when Roosevelt ran again as a third candidate.

The real shift in policy began in the 1920s with the Republicans becoming more conservative and free/corrupt market oriented. As you know the big change for the Democrats was Franklin Roosevelt. His New Deal I would argue helped safe American capitalism by limiting and "interfering" with it. Here is a regulator who you may dislike (I do not know), but I'd argue is one of our three best presidents and easily the best of the 20th century.

Economically he is unsound. As you previously pointed out correctly, minimum wage (for example) limits the market's capacity to produce. It is in direct opposition of laissez-faire. But while without it frictional unemployment may decrease, the quality of life for the worker would still be bad. History has proven unregulated supply side/trickle-down economics (which I'd guess libertarians love) does not work.

And there is the crux of our argument. You are arguing in use of political theory why progressives are dangerous and change is dangerous and argue in favor of classical liberalism which modern Democrats generally oppose without government interference. I disagree and think it is somewhat self-blinding to limit one's self to such constructs and that political theory is never the same in practice. I do believe that change has been the definition of American history in an awkward attempt to create a "more perfect union." I believe in the Constitution and adhearing to it, but also the reinterpreting for contemporary issues. It simply a conflict of ideology between us as I do not believe in unregulated free markets. I also do concede that unchecked or uncriticized "progress" can lead to socialist or even fascist ideals. But to deny that conservative ideology has not led to tyranny and totoletarian states is simply blinding. You may be right that fascism has never been led directly from conservative ideology (albeit I maintain Hitler's promise to reverse Germany back to it's pre-WWI days is in fact conservative as is persecution of those that are different from the majority), the things that lead to fascism are in sync with modern conservative ideas and to not see the link is asinine. In the last eight years we have sacrificed a number of freedoms and "sheppishly" allowed our government to spy on us and arrest and detain without warrants and use torture. If these aren't steps to fascism...let's agree to disagree. :)
DACrowe, I shake your hand in respect.

I will admit that you have a valid "interpretation" of these Histories of these Political Ideologies, but think you are wrong in Hitler's place in the history of Liberal Facism.

I thank you for this debate, but not concede that you are correct in your interpretation.

[Spider-Bite]

yeah liberalism is more about different groups of people coming together and uniting in a peaceful coexistence, rather than eliminating and killing those who are different from you, which is what Hilter did.

You know like the situation with Islamic terrorists. We don't want to kill or even fight muslims. We want a peaceful coexistence where both groups get to live and continue their way of life. Very different from death camps where you kill people for being Jewish.

Hell we don't even support the death penalty.

[ShadowBoxing]

I love how McCain seems to think the only reason Hillary supporters supported her was because she had a vag.

[souvlaki]

oh...and while we're getting all of our news from the DailyKos.....here's something else re the "pregnancy-gate":

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/29/204244/865/169/579531

Key highlights:

"The press did a pretty good job of following up on the substitute child rumor. It proved baseless."

"Given that Erickson was blunt (if not a bit unimpressed) in his evaluation of Palin during the chat this afternoon, I think it's fair to say that if he says the rumors were investigated and debunked, that should be that."

read it and decide.........:whatever:

Considering some of the comments on Daily Kos after the blog was first written it's entirely possible they are purposely denouncing the claim so as to not bring unwanted backlash against the site if the allegations prove to be false. Personally, I think it's smart of them. Leave it to the tabloids to uncover this. If it proves to be false there is no severe backlash against the "left wing nuts" for spreading rumors about Palin, and if it turns out to be true then Palin is screwed. It's a win win situation for them by denouncing it.

[gap5ewl]

I've noticed some people who should know better claiming that bringing up Gov. Palin's troopergate scandal is tantamount to making a victim of or defending her slimeball ex-brother-in-law who allegedly once used a taser on his stepson.
That's awfully foolish. So I thought I'd put together a post explaining why.
The person in question is state trooper Mike Wooten -- Palin's ex-brother-in-law who's embroiled in a bitter custody and divorce battle with Palin's sister. Back in the second week of August, well before Palin became a national political figure, TPMMuckraker was reporting on this story (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/ak_gov_says_staffer_pressed_for_troopers_firing.ph p). And as part of the reporting we tried to get a handle on just how bad a guy Wooten was. Most people who are familiar with the ugliness that often spills out of custody and divorce cases know to take accusations arising out of the course of them with a grain of salt unless you know a lot about the people involved. And if you look closely at the case there are numerous reasons to question the picture drawn by the Palin family. Regardless, we proceeded on the assumption that Wooten really was a rotten guy because the truth is that it wasn't relevant to the investigation of Palin.
Let's review what happened.
The Palin family had a feud with Wooten prior to her becoming governor. They put together a list of 14 accusations which they took to the state police to investigate -- a list that ranged from the quite serious to the truly absurd. The state police did an investigation, decided that 5 of the charges had some merit and suspended Wooten for ten days -- a suspension later reduced to five days. The Palin's weren't satisfied but there wasn't much they could do.
When Palin became governor they went for another bite at the apple. Palin, her husband and several members of her staff began pressuring (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washingtonpostinvestigations/2008/08/exclusive_chief_fired_by_palin.html?hpid=topnews) Public Safety Commissioner, Walt Monegan -- a respected former Chief of the Anchorage police department -- to can Wooten. Monegan resisted, arguing that the official process regarding Wooten was closed. And there was nothing more that could be done. In fact, during one of the conversations in which Palin's husband Todd was putting on the squeeze, Monegan told Todd Palin, "You can't head hunt like this. What you need to do is back off, because if the trooper does make a mistake, and it is a terminable offense, it can look like political interference."
Eventually, Palin got fed up and fired Monegan from his job. (Palin claims, not credibly, that she fired Monegan over general differences in law enforcement priorities.) This is an important point. Wooten never got fired. To the best of my knowledge, he's is still on the job. The central bad act was firing the state's top police official because he refused to bend to political pressure from the governor and her family to fire a public employee against whom the governor was pursuing a vendetta -- whether the vendetta was justified or not.
Soon after this, questions were raised in the state about Monegan's firing and he eventually came forward and said he believed he'd been fired for not giving in to pressure to fire Wooten.
After Monegan made his accusations, Palin insisted there was no truth whatsoever to his claims. Nonetheless, a bipartisan committee of the state legislature approved an investigation. In response, Palin asked the Attorney General to start his own investigation which many in the state interpreted (http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/492077.html) as an effort to either keep tabs on or tamper with the legislature's investigation. Again, very questionable judgment in someone who aspires to be first in line to the presidency.
The Attorney General's investigation quickly turned up evidence that Palin's initial denials were false. Multiple members of her staff had raised Wooten's employment with Monegan. Indeed, the state police had a recording of one of her deputies (http://www.adn.com/monegan/story/492964.html) pushing Monegan to fire Wooten. That evidence forced Palin to change her story. Palin said that this was the first she'd heard of it and insisted the deputy wasn't acting at her behest, even though the trascript of the recorded call clearly suggested that he was. (Hear the audio (http://www.gov.state.ak.us/audio/FrankBaileyCDaudio.mp3) here.)
Just yesterday, Monegan gave an interview to the Washington Post in which he said that not only Palin's aides, but Palin's husband and Palin herself had repeatedly raised the Wooten issue with him and pressured him to fire him. And now he says (http://www.adn.com/front/story/510080.html) he has emails that Palin sent him about the matter. (In an interesting sidelight, that may end up telling us a lot, Monegan says no one from the McCain campaign ever contacted him in the vetting process.)
The investigator appointed by the state legislature began trying to arrange a time to depose Gov. Palin last week -- in other words, in the final days before her selection.
So let's put this all together.
We rely on elected officials not to use the power of their office to pursue personal agendas or vendettas. It's called an abuse of power. There is ample evidence that Palin used her power as governor to get her ex-brother-in-law fired. When his boss refused to fire him, she fired his boss. She first denied Monegan's claims of pressure to fire Wooten and then had to amend her story when evidence proved otherwise. The available evidence now suggests that she 1) tried to have an ex-relative fired from his job for personal reasons, something that was clearly inappropriate, and perhaps illegal, though possibly understandable in human terms, 2) fired a state official for not himself acting inappropriately by firing the relative, 3) lied to the public about what happened and 4) continues to lie about what happened.
These are, to put it mildly, not the traits or temperament you want in someone who could hold the executive power of the federal government.

-josh marshall

some video from the local news up there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UojMnCgqVA)

That's actually a very educational post.:up: I tip my hat to you.

[souvlaki]

And still, either way, traveling for 14 hours while in labor without the approval of her doctor is irresponsible. You can't ignore that.

[Ocramed]

I love how McCain seems to think the only reason Hillary supporters supported her was because she had a vag.

Yeah, that's definitely different from 90 percent of Blacks wanting to vote for Obama because he's black, or journalists wanting to vote Democrat at nearly 90 percent. Yeah, it's impossible to even contemplate that voter would vote based upon "special interests", and not on "issues". :whatever:

[Ocramed]

And still, either way, traveling for 14 hours while in labor without the approval of her doctor is irresponsible. You can't ignore that.

Oh, yeah...like YOU care.

[souvlaki]

Oh, yeah...like YOU care.

Who the hell are you, and what is your problem? I may think Palin is a horrendous choice for VP, but for you to suggest that I dont care about the well being of a child born with down syndrome is messed up on so many levels. How dare you assume what I do and do not care about. Go back to lurking.

[ShadowBoxing]

Yeah, that's definitely different from 90 percent of Blacks wanting to vote for Obama because he's black, or journalists wanting to vote Democrat at nearly 90 percent. Yeah, it's impossible to even contemplate that voter would vote based upon "special interests", and not on "issues". :whatever:Well considering Hillary Clinton is hardly the first female to run in a primary, and Barack is hardly the first African American, I'd say you're completely wrong on both counts. In fact, initial polls had Barack running very cold in the black community because they "had not gotten to know him yet". Elizabeth Dole, a well known, respected female in politics, did virtually nothing when she ran. I also can't tell you how many local races aren't won and lost on gender or race. Issues are very important. If you think running a pro-life, NRA member in place of Hillary Clinton is winning any votes you're retarded. Not guilible, not out of touch, this won't even qualify as niave, you're retarded.

McCain is forgetting something, Democrats voted for Hillary Clinton. Democrats. Some, and a very few I might add, would entertain the idea of voting for McCain because she lost, but those people weren't going to be voting democrat anyways. We already lost them the minute they named themselves "Party Unity My Ass" and started claiming the primary was "unfair".

Hillary is not a lego brick; you can't take out a blue brick and replace it with a red one and expect no one to notice. Does she have a good story? She does, but it's hardly Hillary's. The women who supported Hillary really felt like they knew her. They empathetized with her problems in her marriage, they agreed with her on issues like abortion, health care, and her work for women and families. Sarah Palin offers none of that. To the people who voted for Clinton she might as well be Dick Cheney in a dress.

[Addendum]

Dick Cheney in a dress.

http://www.notcorrect.com/Images/Bush%20Pics/Cheynie-in-Drag.jpg

:hehe::woot:

[ShadowBoxing]

That response was creepily fast.

[jaguarr]

http://www.notcorrect.com/Images/Bush%20Pics/Cheynie-in-Drag.jpg

:hehe::woot:

Ack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm going to need therapy after seeing that!

jag

[Addendum]

That response was creepily fast.

The wonders of the google :word:

[hitmanyr2k]

The Attorney General's investigation quickly turned up evidence that Palin's initial denials were false. Multiple members of her staff had raised Wooten's employment with Monegan. Indeed, the state police had a recording of one of her deputies (http://www.adn.com/monegan/story/492964.html) pushing Monegan to fire Wooten. That evidence forced Palin to change her story. Palin said that this was the first she'd heard of it and insisted the deputy wasn't acting at her behest, even though the trascript of the recorded call clearly suggested that he was. (Hear the audio (http://www.gov.state.ak.us/audio/FrankBaileyCDaudio.mp3) here.)

Wow, the guy on that clip is a ****in weasel. I want to kick his ass just listening to him lol.

[Shifty]

Time's Palin YouTube videos (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1837608_1837607,00.html?xid=site-cnn-partner)

[hammy]

I don't know anything. I can only analyze his decision the best way possible.

Exactly. So perhaps you should speak less emphatically when discussing a topic you have very little inside information on. You stated very authoritatively that she was 'only selected' because of her gender and her appearance, in an effort to sway the Hillary voters. Neither of us knew for sure what his reasoning was. I said repeatedly that I felt that if he was doing any pandering it was more to the conservatives than people like the Clintonites. I also think there's a chance she will appeal to some of the undecided independents out there who may relate to and like her 'real person' persona as opposed to Joe Biden's good old boy, old white guy, same old same old persona. I'm still mad at Obama for that one. :cmad:


As for Alaska being one of the most irrelevant states in the country... meh. That's subject to opinion, to everyone's opinion. But, when you consider that its politics are totally different from the politics in the mainland United States, that its taxes are different, that its breed of politicians are different...
I disagree. It's politics are not totally different, neither are the taxes, etc. And by the way, I believe it was you (perhaps not) who earlier stated that it "wasn't even a part of the continental U.S." I hope you've since realized that it certainly IS on the same continent. It's just not part of the contiguous 48.


it becomes apparent, to me, that two year's experience as governor of Alaska isn't nearly enough experience to become Vice President of the United States.


Well, you know what .. maybe that's a good thing. I hate career politicians. That is not what our founding fathers had in mind when they created this country and I think that if it were possible, their ashes would be turning in their graves at what has become U.S. politics. I'm sick of people exactly like Biden who spend years pandering to voters, pretending that they actually care, just to keep themselves elected and living in the lap of luxury while their so called 'working class,' constituents bust their azzes to keep them there. :cmad: Give me someone who hasn't been a politician for 20 + years, who hasn't amassed a fortune at taxpayer expense, who doesn't live the life of luxury and who actually represents the people who elected them because they are one of them, anyday. Seriously. Any .. day.

Elitist? Maybe it is. I consider my intellect to be fairly high, I consider my knowledge of the political system to be top notch, and I consider my standing in the political world to make my opinion a little more valid in some cases than others. But my opinion is not the only opinion, and at least I can back up my opinion on Alaska and Sarah Palin with factual evidence.

Well I don't agree with your intellect being top notch because I have seen nothing to demonstrate that. It may well be, but it doesn't seem likely based on the discussion in this thread. As for your standing in the political world, I have no idea who you are, so I can't say. But the only opinion I cared about was the one so emphatically stated about her being asked due to her gender and her appearance. It was a very dismissive comment, as were the comments about how irrelevant Alaska is.


And, as for your place... your place, as a poster on these boards, is to know when it is right to open your mouth (fingers? :huh:) and make daring insinuations, such as I am sexist. Instead of being so bold as to make the accusation itself, I would suggest asking a series of questions and analyzing the answers you receive, then calling the poster on it if it is prevalent. Gender and race baiting are two things which shouldn't come up here, ever, unless it is quite obvious.

At least three times now you have said I accused you of being sexist. Except, yeah ... I didn't. I went back and reread my posts and I didn't call you sexist. Not that I didn't think that, mind you. But I didn't say it. THIS is why I take issue with your "high" intellect and "standing in the political world." :whatever: If that's how you operate as a politician, I hope you don't last long. You represent the status quo in politics, the status quo that I revile so much. And this is why the fact that you work for a congresswoman only serves as a reminder of how so many things in your political world, work. Just throw out crazy accusations, lather, rinse, repeat and repeat and then tell Matt so he can give me an infraction. (You never answered that question, btw.) I would have had so much more respect for you if you had simply done a little fact checking and actually found a post where I had said that. But you didn't. Hmm. What a surprise. :dry: And of course you couldn't find it because it didn't exist. And THAT is exactly why I, once a staunch Democrat have moved away from that party. They seem to have so much trouble with that little detail of checking the "facts." You however have demonstrated nicely how they don't have any trouble simply making something up and repeating it, hoping that dumb dumbs will just take for granted they are speaking the truth.

I really don't see any need to continue this discussion with you; I think it's safe to say we had differing views on why she might have been chosen, but we do agree that it won't mean Hillary supporters will move to her ticket simply because she is female.

[StorminNorman]

Polls:

CNN: Obama 49 - McCain 48
Zogby: McCain 47 - Obama 45

The pick of Palin has successfully squashed any convention bump Obama would of received - also she seems to have been well received by voters.

[danoyse]

I don't know where the quote is, my dad showed me the news story he read on his iPhone when we were at a barbecue today...but apparently McCain is now using Palin's time as head of the PTA as valid experience for the job.

[The Senator]

Perhaps the lack of a convention will mean the lack of a post-convention bump for McCain...

[kainedamo]

Polls:

CNN: Obama 49 - McCain 48
Zogby: McCain 47 - Obama 45

The pick of Palin has successfully squashed any convention bump Obama would of received - also she seems to have been well received by voters.

Those polls are old.

What do you think of Palin, Norman?

[ShadowBoxing]

Polls:

Dude...you need to get daily polls. Those are both a week old. Obama has been sporting 6 and 8 point leads according to Gallup this week.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109903/Gallup-Daily-ObamaBiden-Ticket-Leads-Points.aspx

[StorminNorman]

What do you think of Palin, Norman?

As a voter, I love it. Palin is exactly the sort of politician I wanted to see - a young, energetic leader who is not afraid of stepping on party toes in order to best serve the people. She is more conservative than I am - but we agree on far more issues than Obama does, and the biggest disagreement I have with her (abortion) is an issue she is never going to change any way. Palin gives me a reason to vote FOR McCain's ticket, rather than simply voting against Obama's.

As a political analyst: It is mundo risky - big risk, big reward. If Palin is able to sell herself as more than a pretty face and is well received by the country - McCain wins this election with a far greater margin than I would of ever guessed possible. If Palin stumbles when the media is on her and she is received as someone who has no business in the White House - McCain's chances are over.

[StorminNorman]

Dude...you need to get daily polls. Those are both a week old. Obama has been sporting 6 and 8 point leads according to Gallup this week.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109903/Gallup-Daily-ObamaBiden-Ticket-Leads-Points.aspx

Dude...

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/31/cnn-poll-obama-49-mccain-48/

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews1547.html

[danoyse]

All of the major news reporters aren't even at the RNC anymore. They're all in New Orleans. I only see Wolf Blitzer left at the RNC, and he's talking about the hurricane. This is just a mess.

[danoyse]

Found it!

http://www.1010wins.com/McCain-Orders-Convention-Curtailed-for-Gustav/2883319

Responding to a question after his hurricane-related remarks, McCain made a ringing defense of Palin, who Democrats argue has less experience than their presidential candidate, Barack Obama.

"I thin Sen. Obama, if they want to do down that route, in all candor, she has far, far more experience than Sen. Obama does," McCain said.

He cited Palin's stint as governor of a "state that produces 20 percent of America's energy" as well as her previous membership in the PTA and her time spent on the city council and in the mayor's office in Wasilla,a town of fewer than 7,000 people outside Anchorage.

This is great, maybe that means if the economy sinks any further she can organize a bake sale to get it back on track.

[ShadowBoxing]

Dude...

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/31/cnn-poll-obama-49-mccain-48/

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews1547.html
Dude, go check REALCLEARPOLITICS, as of the 31st (not the 29th, that Zogby poll is two days old) Obama averages 3.4 points over McCain. The only poll you posted that was taken as of today was the CNN poll. McCain is behind in every poll taken today.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls/

[jaguarr]

LMAO at the McCain campaign referencing Palin's PTA membership as part of her qualifications. She also drove her kids to soccer practice, so I guess she's an expert on transportation, too, right? :lmao:

jag

[StorminNorman]

Dude, go check REALCLEARPOLITICS, as of the 31st (not the 29th, that Zogby poll is two days old) Obama averages 3.4 points over McCain. The only poll you posted that was taken as of today was the CNN poll. McCain is behind in every poll taken today.

*sigh*

The Gallop Poll and the Rasmussen Poll were taken the same days as the Zogby poll (in fact the Gallop Poll and the Rasmussen Poll included 8/28 where as the Zogby poll was taken 8/29-8/30 only). The only poll that includes today was the CNN poll.

If you want to look at this by poll average (like RCP) then the current total is Obama +2 (The Zogby poll + Rasmussen + CNN + Gallop - the other two polls included in RCP are old), that is well within the margin of error and concludes that Obama did not receive a convention bump and that Palin has been well received.

Which is exactly what I said before.

Also - taking the Rasmussen Report into Consideration - you see another great advantage to the Palin pick:

There have been significant changes in perception of John McCain in the two days of polling since he named Alaska Governor Sarah Palin as his running mate. Since then, 49% of Republicans (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll#) voice a Very Favorable opinion of McCain. That’s up six percentage points from 43% just before the announcement. Also, 64% of unaffiliated voters now give positive reviews to McCain, up ten points since naming his running mate.

[hitmanyr2k]

Basically all that above just shows why polls are worthless.

[danoyse]

LMAO at the McCain campaign referencing Palin's PTA membership as part of her qualifications. She also drove her kids to soccer practice, so I guess she's an expert on transportation, too, right? :lmao:

jag

I also read today that when she went to visit the troops at that Army hospital in Germany, she had to apply for a passport, for the very first time.

[UA-Archangel]

After all the crap the Right has tried to pin on Obama these past few months, Him being a Muslim, Him being the anti-christ and all the other stupid crap, It would serve them right to lose over a story like this IMO.

While I don't support smears about any candidates, asking legitimate questions about his beliefs and past actions and past and present company are legitimate.

[StorminNorman]

Basically all that above just shows why polls are worthless.

:huh:

[UA-Archangel]

Yes ,.. "baseless" :whatever:
I dont think anyone has had a case of mono that lasted eight months since the discovery of Penicillin in the friggin 20's but ,whatever.:oldrazz:

This is Alaska we're talking about.

You either recover from your ills or they shoot you.

[Superman4ever]

While I don't support smears about any candidates, asking legitimate questions about his beliefs and past actions and past and present company are legitimate.

So, if he was a Muslim he wouldn't be as American or patriotic as you are?

[X Knight]

So, if he was a Muslim he wouldn't be as American or patriotic as you are?

:huh:

[UA-Archangel]

So, if he was a Muslim he wouldn't be as American or patriotic as you are?

If he was a Muslim who supported terrorist organizations or hung around with them, yes.

While I definitely support the possibility of minorities becoming president, I'm not willing to throw out the constitution to make that happen.

Sorry.

[The Senator]

The last person I knew who had mono was out of school for a week and a half, and spent another three weeks quarantined from the rest of us so he could finish his finals. I have never heard of a seven month case of mono. Ever. In fact, it's rare that I hear of a case lasting over a month, if that.

There's something very fishy about this pregnancy story, and if it is in fact true that Palin's daughter had the child instead of Palin herself, I feel this might destroy her VP candidacy...

[The Senator]

If he was a Muslim who supported terrorist organizations or hung around with them, yes.

While I definitely support the possibility of minorities becoming president, I'm not willing to throw out the constitution to make that happen.

Sorry.

:huh:

No make sense?

[Marx]

So apparently Cindy McCain is repeating the moronic "Palin lives so close to Russia so that has to count for something" line in regards to her foreign policy experience.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/Wilhelm-Scream/HYPE/superrolleyesua2.gif

As I said before, I honestly expected more class and 'reality' from Cindy McCain. It's one thing for the idiots on FOX News to spew that garbage, it's quite another for Cindy McCain. :csad:

[StorminNorman]

The last person I knew who had mono was out of school for a week and a half, and spent another three weeks quarantined from the rest of us so he could finish his finals. I have never heard of a seven month case of mono. Ever. In fact, it's rare that I hear of a case lasting over a month, if that.

There's something very fishy about this pregnancy story, and if it is in fact true that Palin's daughter had the child instead of Palin herself, I feel this might destroy her VP candidacy...

It would.

Though, again, at this point I am filing this firmly in the same file that I have the 'Obama wasn't born in America' story.

[UA-Archangel]

The last person I knew who had mono was out of school for a week and a half, and spent another three weeks quarantined from the rest of us so he could finish his finals. I have never heard of a seven month case of mono. Ever. In fact, it's rare that I hear of a case lasting over a month, if that.

There's something very fishy about this pregnancy story, and if it is in fact true that Palin's daughter had the child instead of Palin herself, I feel this might destroy her VP candidacy...

Being a mom who did what she did to protect her daughter wouldn't destroy her political career, but it could destroy her daughter if the Dem's play it up.

It could also potentially destroy the Democrat's chances if they do play it up, so they'd be smarter to leave it alone.

[Addendum]

While I definitely support the possibility of minorities becoming president, I'm not willing to throw out the constitution to make that happen.

There's nothing in the Constitution that prevents "minorities" from being president, and the Constitution says that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States"

[UA-Archangel]

:huh:

No make sense?

I don't know Obama, so it's not a personal thing. However, if he is indeed a radical in a sheep's clothing, that is not a good thing. The American president should bleed the flag and constitution and love his country.

[The Senator]

It would.

Though, again, at this point I am filing this firmly in the same file that I have the 'Obama wasn't born in America' story.

Of course, there are a lot more plot holes with this than there is the "Obama wasn't born in America" story. Especially since Palin's daughter was out of school for seven months, because she had 'mono.' Mono. See, if it was cancer, or the ebola virus, I would understand her being out of school for almost an entire school year. But she had mono, a disease which is long but not that long.

Plus, the apparent photos of Palin not showing anything a month before her pregnancy is also something which raises my eyebrow a notch.

I'm filing this under "hard to believe, but I've been proven wrong before."

[Gilpesh]

Being a mom who did what she did to protect her daughter wouldn't destroy her political career, but it could destroy her daughter if the Dem's play it up.

It wouldn't destroy her political career that she completely abused power and lied to everyone?

It could also potentially destroy the Democrat's chances if they do play it up, so they'd be smarter to leave it alone.

Not if it is true and shows her character... but it's a big if right now.

[The Senator]

I don't know Obama, so it's not a personal thing. However, if he is indeed a radical in a sheep's clothing, that is not a good thing. The American president should bleed the flag and constitution and love his country.

What if John McCain is a radical? After all, he spent five years being tortured by the "gooks" (as he calls them), how can we be so sure their tactics didn't rub off on him and that he's planning a secret Vietnamese invasion once he takes office?

And since Alaska is so close to Russia, how can we be so sure Palin isn't on the deal, either? And that she wants Vladimir Putin to become Supreme Commander of the United States? I mean, we don't know much about her, maybe she's a radical too...

[UA-Archangel]

There's nothing in the Constitution that prevents "minorities" from being president, and the Constitution says that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States"

Why would you read that into what I wrote?
Are you that literal of a person?

Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough.

I don't care about the minority factor. I can as easily vote for them as not, depending on whether their views agree with mine. The race of the person is irrelevant to me.

There have been questions that arose about the possibility the Obama may not be American-born and he has a history of having hung around radicals.

Those are legitimate questions if there is a basis for asking about them.

[The Senator]

Being a mom who did what she did to protect her daughter wouldn't destroy her political career, but it could destroy her daughter if the Dem's play it up.

It could also potentially destroy the Democrat's chances if they do play it up, so they'd be smarter to leave it alone.

I beg to differ.

She just told everyone how she raised five children, and how her latest child was born with Down's Syndrome. And she also boasts about the fact that she didn't get an abortion, and how morally superior or equal she is to every other woman faced with the same decision under the same circumstances.

If this is true, it will destroy any credibility she has on the national scene. No one knows anything about her except for her life story. If she lied about her own life story from the get go, then how does that bode for her? The media will tear her apart.

[UA-Archangel]

What if John McCain is a radical? After all, he spent five years being tortured by the "gooks" (as he calls them), how can we be so sure their tactics didn't rub off on him and that he's planning a secret Vietnamese invasion once he takes office?

And since Alaska is so close to Russia, how can we be so sure Palin isn't on the deal, either? And that she wants Vladimir Putin to become Supreme Commander of the United States? I mean, we don't know much about her, maybe she's a radical too...

Show me where Palin is communicating with Red Square and show me where McCain has been compromised.

I'm not attempting to smear Obama, but if it did turn out that he still had his radical beliefs and they drove his agenda, he could end up being the first and last minority to hold the presidential seal.

[Addendum]

You do know that the founding fathers of the United States were radicals, since they had this strange idea of rejecting the British monarchy and creating their own country

[UA-Archangel]

I beg to differ.

She just told everyone how she raised five children, and how her latest child was born with Down's Syndrome. And she also boasts about the fact that she didn't get an abortion, and how morally superior or equal she is to every other woman faced with the same decision under the same circumstances.

If this is true, it will destroy any credibility she has on the national scene. No one knows anything about her except for her life story. If she lied about her own life story from the get go, then how does that bode for her? The media will tear her apart.

Only to those that are against her would it hurt her chances, which is not hurting her at all. The fact that the Dem's would play up a family situation would not sit well with the American people, believe me. Most people have family situations similar to this possiblity and seeing the Democrat's try to use it to destroy her would backfire, I guarentee it.

But go ahead, play it up. Let it make the national news and let's see how it plays out.

[The Senator]

Show me where Palin is communicating with Red Square and show me where McCain has been compromised.

I'm not attempting to smear Obama, but if it did turn out that he still had his radical beliefs and they drove his agenda, he could end up being the first and last minority to hold the presidential seal.

And if McCain/ Palin turned out that way, they could be the last Republicans to ever serve in the executive branch.

Your point is bland and really, really silly...

[Heretic]

All of the major news reporters aren't even at the RNC anymore. They're all in New Orleans. I only see Wolf Blitzer left at the RNC, and he's talking about the hurricane. This is just a mess.

The Republicans...like any caring person or group of people, are concentrating on the hurricane more than their own party needs. The lives and livelihoods of the people in danger is far more important than their convention. John McCain will give up whatever potential gains he could recieve if it means saving human life.

[Addendum]

Why would you read that into what I wrote?
I read nothing into what you wrote. You made that comment and I provided some facts.

Are you that literal of a person?
When one makes a comment, I have this strange tendency to respond directly to it, instead of finding a hidden meaning.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough.
It seemed pretty clear to me

[UA-Archangel]

You do know that the founding fathers of the United States were radicals, since they had this strange idea of rejecting the British monarchy and creating their own country

By that statement, I can only guess that you support the 60's radicalism that involved terrorist activities and general chaos.

Sorry, but I'm not with you.

[UA-Archangel]

And if McCain/ Palin turned out that way, they could be the last Republicans to ever serve in the executive branch.

Your point is bland and really, really silly...

I don't think it's silly at all.

Every presidential candidate should be vetted and prodded on their beliefs and actions.

While I'm not a democrat, I'd be willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt if he could demonstrate that his past actions and beliefs were the acts of a young man who found them wanting and he became more centrist.

However, I haven't seen him attempt to do that as of yet and that concerns me.

[The Senator]

By that statement, I can only guess that you support the 60's radicalism that involved terrorist activities and general chaos.

Sorry, but I'm not with you.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/Wilhelm-Scream/HYPE/superrolleyesua2.gif

[StrainedEyes]

Being a mom who did what she did to protect her daughter wouldn't destroy her political career, but it could destroy her daughter if the Dem's play it up.

It could also potentially destroy the Democrat's chances if they do play it up, so they'd be smarter to leave it alone.

A small group of people would see it as protecting her daughter, the rest of us would see it as her covering it up to protect her image.

[The Senator]

Only to those that are against her would it hurt her chances, which is not hurting her at all. The fact that the Dem's would play up a family situation would not sit well with the American people, believe me. Most people have family situations similar to this possiblity and seeing the Democrat's try to use it to destroy her would backfire, I guarentee it.

But go ahead, play it up. Let it make the national news and let's see how it plays out.

I think the American people prefer candidates who don't outright lie to them over something ridiculous. She made it a part of her life story, it is an important chapter in the "History of Sarah Palin's Character (Because she lacks experience)," and the American people will feel quite betrayed that she lied to them in order to play on their heart strings.

[The Senator]

I don't think it's silly at all.

Every presidential candidate should be vetted and prodded on their beliefs and actions.

While I'm not a democrat, I'd be willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt if he could demonstrate that his past actions and beliefs were the acts of a young man who found them wanting and he became more centrist.

However, I haven't seen him attempt to do that as of yet and that concerns me.

Obama's not a sixties radical though considering he was a child during the movement... so the point you're making isn't only silly, it's entirely fictional...

[UA-Archangel]

A small group of people would see it as protecting her daughter, the rest of us would see it as her covering it up to protect her image.

I disagree. You will notice that the Democratic party isn't touching it with a ten foot pole. I tend to think that the party, so close to winning, would play it up if it would help them.

But go ahead, play it up. Make sure it's on CNN and such.

I can't wait. :)

[UA-Archangel]

Obama's not a sixties radical though considering he was a child during the movement... so the point you're making isn't only silly, it's entirely fictional...

As I said, if it's fictional than it should be demonstrated as such.

[hitmanyr2k]

Only to those that are against her would it hurt her chances, which is not hurting her at all. The fact that the Dem's would play up a family situation would not sit well with the American people, believe me. Most people have family situations similar to this possiblity and seeing the Democrat's try to use it to destroy her would backfire, I guarentee it.

But go ahead, play it up. Let it make the national news and let's see how it plays out.

The Democrats wouldn't have to play it up. Everyone would question her character for trying to play the role of having a child with Down syndrome that she didn't even carry herself. There would be many questions. Did her daughter have a say in keeping the child? Why keep her out of school for so long? Was Palin ashamed of having a pregnant daughter? Was mom's reputation put over her daughter's needs? These are all questions that would paint Palin's character. I think the American people have seen enough liars and scandals from the Republican party to last them a lifetime.

[StrainedEyes]

I disagree. You will notice that the Democratic party isn't touching it with a ten foot pole. I tend to think that the party, so close to winning, would play it up if it would help them.

But go ahead, play it up. Make sure it's on CNN and such.

I can't wait. :)

They obviously wouldn't mention it unless it was proven true.

[X Knight]

let's see if it is proven true.......

[The Senator]

As I said, if it's fictional than it should be demonstrated as such.

I never knew eight year olds could be radicals :huh:

The more you learn each day...

[Addendum]

By that statement, I can only guess that you support the 60's radicalism that involved terrorist activities and general chaos.

Sorry, but I'm not with you.

Not all the radicals in the 60s took part in terrorist activities. I have no problem with people that protest or fight for change.

If I was old enough to have lived during the 60s, I would have taken part in the Civil Rights Movement and maybe a protest against Vietnam.

The fact that "you're not with me" is meaningless

[UA-Archangel]

The Democrats wouldn't have to play it up. Everyone would question her character for trying to play the role of having a child with Down syndrome that she didn't even carry herself. There would be many questions. Did her daughter have a say in keeping the child? Why keep her out of school for so long? Was Palin ashamed of having a pregnant daughter? Was mom's reputation put over her daughter's needs? These are all questions that would paint Palin's character. I think the American people have seen enough liars and scandals from the Republican party to last them a lifetime.

Family situations are meant to be kept private. The only way this would hurt her is if she had adopted somebody else's kid (outside the family) and then laid claim as to it being hers. That could hurt her.

However, acting as a loving parent wanting to protect her daughter and grand-child wouldn't hurt her. It would make her a very decent person deep down.

And people would see it.

[StrainedEyes]

Family situations are meant to be kept private. The only way this would hurt her is if she had adopted somebody else's kid (outside the family) and then laid claim as to it being hers. That could hurt her.

However, acting as a loving parent wanting to protect her daughter and grand-child wouldn't hurt her. It would make her a very decent person deep down.

And people would see it.

Family situations are never private in the political world.

People would see that she lied, that's all the matters. Why did she lie? Was it to protect her daughter? Maybe, but why did her daughter need protecting? Plenty of 16 year old girls have kids, it's odd but not shunned. So why else would she lie about it? To save face as a good mom. There are too many questions involved in how she handled it. Pulling a "Jack Nicholson" is not exactly admirable.

This would hurt her. There's no way around it.

[UA-Archangel]

Not all the radicals in the 60s took part in terrorist activities. I have no problem with people that protest or fight for change.

If I was old enough to have lived during the 60s, I would have taken part in the Civil Rights Movement and maybe a protest against Vietnam.

The fact that "you're not with me" is meaningless

Let me put it to you this way, silence against damaging smears never works, it only makes it look like the candidate is hiding something.

The best way to handle something like this is to come out in the open and define what it is that you do believe. If he had outlined what he did believe and how it differed from the radicalism that some people fear, the issue may have been laid to rest.

A maxim in politics is that if you don't define yourself, others will do it for you.

[Gilpesh]

Family situations are meant to be kept private. The only way this would hurt her is if she had adopted somebody else's kid (outside the family) and then laid claim as to it being hers. That could hurt her.

However, acting as a loving parent wanting to protect her daughter and grand-child wouldn't hurt her. It would make her a very decent person deep down.

And people would see it.

Why are you not getting this?

If it is true... she lied. Flat out lied... abused her power for personal gain. And showed the true nature of her character. Some of her stances are completely against this action.

Again, if true.

[X Knight]

and that's a big IF....

[UA-Archangel]

Family situations are never private in the political world.

People would see that she lied. Why did she lie? Was it to protect her daughter? Maybe, but why did her daughter need protecting? Plenty of 16 year old girls have kids, it's odd but not shunned. So why else would she lie about it? To save face as a good mom.

This would hurt her. There's no way around it.

I dont' believe it would an Dems haven't really had a good history at being able to pick the proper smears of their opponents, that's one reason why they lost the 2000 (or 2004, I can't remember which) election when they tried to tie a drinking conviction from 30 years ago to George Bush. People saw it for the smear it was and it actually hurt the Dems abit.

I can almost guarentee this here. Private family matters, like this one, are better to be left alone. If it was a situation where it was her husband's daughter from an affair, that could hurt her.

But going after somebody who is protecting her daughter for a human failing, is not a good idea.

[hitmanyr2k]

Family situations are meant to be kept private. The only way this would hurt her is if she had adopted somebody else's kid (outside the family) and then laid claim as to it being hers. That could hurt her.

However, acting as a loving parent wanting to protect her daughter and grand-child wouldn't hurt her. It would make her a very decent person deep down.

And people would see it.

It seems there's no such thing as private family matters when you're in a high position (or running for a high office) in the United States. If that were the case you would never hear about any family matters in the news, would you? But we do, a lot. I don't see how keeping your pregnant kid out of school protects her. Pregnant teens go to school every single day. Sounds more like protecting an image to me.

[Addendum]

There are some absurd claims that don't merit a response.

[UA-Archangel]

Why are you not getting this?

If it is true... she lied. Flat out lied... abused her power for personal gain. And showed the true nature of her character. Some of her stances are completely against this action.

Again, if true.

It depends on the lie. Lies that protect family's dignity and protecting one's children are considered acceptable lies in our society.

Lies that are meant for personal gains aren't considered acceptable.

[Heretic]

Why are you not getting this?

If it is true... she lied. Flat out lied... abused her power for personal gain. And showed the true nature of her character. Some of her stances are completely against this action.

Again, if true.

I agree with you in principal (though I find it humorous that Democrats who defended Bill Clinton committing perjury as "just a lie" are now trashing her for what is rumored to maybe be a lie) but Im confused as to how that equates to abusing her political power...Im not saying she didnt, but Im unclear on how claiming that a child is yours is abusing political power.

[StrainedEyes]

I dont' believe it would an Dems haven't really had a good history at being able to pick the proper smears of their opponents, that's one reason why they lost the 2000 (or 2004, I can't remember which) election when they tried to tie a drinking conviction from 30 years ago to George Bush. People saw it for the smear it was and it actually hurt the Dems abit.

I can almost guarentee this here. Private family matters, like this one, are better to be left alone. If it was a situation where it was her husband's daughter from an affair, that could hurt her.

But going after somebody who is protecting her daughter for a human failing, is not a good idea.


Democrats wouldn't have to pick it up, the media coverage alone would destroy her. She would have lied over something she didn't have to lie about. That's a problem. It would not have destroyed her family image to have a pregnant daughter. Her supporting the pregnancy would have worked in her favor. If she covered it up, it was a mistake and only for her gain.

[UA-Archangel]

It seems there's no such thing as private family matters when you're in a high position (or running for a high office) in the United States. If that were the case you would never hear about any family matters in the news, would you? But we do, a lot. I don't see how keeping your pregnant kid out of school protects her. Pregnant teens go to school every single day. Sounds more like protecting an image to me.

If I had a daughter and it was the same situation, I might be inclined to do the same thing. Odds are she wasn't kept out of school per se, but took home schooling during that time.

[The Senator]

The Dems probably wouldn't be the ones to exploit this... the media was able to discuss the Larry Craig scandal without the Democrats' response, same thing with Spitzer and the Republicans... a few may respond to it in interviews but the party itself (especially Obama) will not be the ones who exploit this on the national scene...

[Gilpesh]

and that's a big IF....

Which is why everyone here is just sitting around thinking... no definite word has come out about it... besides that one site CYAing.

It depends on the lie. Lies that protect family's dignity and protecting one's children are considered acceptable lies in our society.

Lies that are meant for personal games aren't considered acceptable.

Yeah... but she's then using that lie as a campaign line... if it weren't true. That's personal gain.

I agree with you in principal (though I find it humorous that Democrats who defended Bill Clinton committing perjury as "just a lie" are now trashing her for what is rumored to maybe be a lie) but Im confused as to how that equates to abusing her political power...Im not saying she didnt, but Im unclear on how claiming that a child is yours is abusing political power.

Oh, well if it was a lie. That means a lot of people at a hospital in Alaska had to lie about what happened. So someone had to make them.


Again, if true.

[UA-Archangel]

Democrats wouldn't have to pick it up, the media coverage alone would destroy her. She would have lied over something she didn't have to lie about. That's a problem. It would not have destroyed her family image to have a pregnant daughter. Her supporting the pregnancy would have worked in her favor. If she covered it up, it was a mistake and only for her gain.

I disagree. All Palin would have to do in that situation is be upfront about it and shed a few tears and it would be over and the Democratics would look very bad.

I can tell you as one who has consumed politics for about 25 years that this wouldn't hurt her as much as it would hurt the Democrats if they ran with the story.

It's why the Dems aren't touching the story. Women are considered saints when it comes to pregnancies, while men are demonized.

[StrainedEyes]

I disagree. All Palin would have to do in that situation is be upfront about it and shed a few tears and it would be over and the Democratics would look very bad.

I can tell you as one who has consumed politics for about 25 years that this wouldn't hurt her as much as it would hurt the Democrats if they ran with the story.

It's why the Dems aren't touching the story. Women are considered saints when it comes to pregnancies, while men are demonized.

The Democrats aren't touching to story, because there is no real story right now.

Like I said and you ignored, the Democrats would not be the ones exploiting it, the media would.

[Gilpesh]

I disagree. All Palin would have to do in that situation is be upfront about it and shed a few tears and it would be over and the Democratics would look very bad.

I can tell you as one who has consumed politics for about 25 years that this wouldn't hurt her as much as it would hurt the Democrats if they ran with the story.

It's why the Dems aren't touching the story. Women are considered saints when it comes to pregnancies, while men are demonized.

That's sexist.

[danoyse]

The Democrats aren't touching to story, because there is no real story right now.

Like I said and you ignored, the Democrats would not be the ones exploiting it, the media would.

No, the Democrats would be insane to touch it. They've got plenty of real issues to go after her on which are far more important than some soap opera issues with her family.

And I think people will be sympathetic enough for what she did that it could really backfire badly for them if they made an issue out of it.

[StrainedEyes]

No, the Democrats would be insane to touch it. They've got plenty of real issues to go after her on which are far more important than some soap opera issues with her family.

And I think people will be sympathetic enough for what she did that it could really backfire badly for them if they made an issue out of it.

I just said the democrats wouldn't be using it, the media would. You quoted me.

[danoyse]

I just said the democrats wouldn't be using it, the media would. You quoted me.

Nearly everyone here is saying that. We're just all in agreement. :cwink:

[UA-Archangel]

That's sexist.

It's also true.

[Gilpesh]

It's also true.

Wait... how is it horrible and sexist to ask 'why she is leaving her four month old newborn to run around the country' but yet she could just cry her way out of her problems?

[UA-Archangel]

The Democrats aren't touching to story, because there is no real story right now.

Like I said and you ignored, the Democrats would not be the ones exploiting it, the media would.

The operatives likely have the truth, right down to the birth certificate. Believe me, anybody of any significance will have been investigated by both sides fully.

When Palin's name first came up as a credible possibility, you can be sure that the Dem's fully investigated her. That's the way it's done in modern politics.

It wouldn't be surprised if they have a copy of the birth certificate sitting in Biden's file on her.

[UA-Archangel]

Wait... how is it horrible and sexist to ask 'why she is leaving her four month old newborn to run around the country' but yet she could just cry her way out of her problems?

If the husband is a stay at home father, not a problem at all.

It's not as though they dropped the kid into daycare upon dropping him out of the uterus.

In fact, to modern sensibilities, that could play well with a father staying at home and the mother working.

[Superman]

OK I'm back, Had to get some sleep.:csad:


So, Is the McCain camp still citing the fact that Palin lived next to Russia as her foreign policy experience?

You know Palin also lived next to Canada, Damn!, That's two countries that she lived NEXT TO that she could use for her foreign policy experience argument. :lmao:

Hell as far as that goes Obama has foreign policy experience aswell, He lived next to Canada too.:hehe::whatever:

[UA-Archangel]

OK I'm back, Had to get some sleep.:csad:


So, Is the McCain camp still citing the fact that Palin lived next to Russia as her foreign policy experience?

You know Palin also lived next to Canada, Damn!, That's two countries that she lived NEXT TO that she could use for her foreign policy experience argument. :lmao:

Hell as far as that goes Obama has foreign policy experience aswell, He lived next to Canada too.:hehe::whatever:

Except Obama didn't know my country had a Prime Minister. :(

[Marx]

OK I'm back, Had to get some sleep.:csad:


So, Is the McCain camp still citing the fact that Palin lived next to Russia as her foreign policy experience?

You know Palin also lived next to Canada, Damn!, That's two countries that she lived NEXT TO that she could use for her foreign policy experience argument. :lmao:

Hell as far as that goes Obama has foreign policy experience aswell, He lived next to Canada too.:hehe::whatever:

Yes, and now Cindy McCain has jumped on that bandwagon.

[Mr Sparkle]

Hey guys, you're missing the point, Palin also lives close to the Pole, so she probably knows........SANTA CLAUS!!!! she could get gifts for all of us!!!! YAY!!!!!

[Superman]

Yes, and now Cindy McCain has jumped on that bandwagon.Yeah, I know. That's that last thing I saw before I went to bed.:woot:

It didn't surprise me that Fox News would try to pull this off, They say dumb things all the time, But for Cindy McCain to say it is just rediculous.:whatever:

[Marx]

Hey guys, you're missing the point, Palin also lives close to the Pole, so she probably knows........SANTA CLAUS!!!! she could get gifts for all of us!!!! YAY!!!!!

:hehe:

[Marx]

Yeah, I know. That's that last thing I saw before I went to bed.:woot:

It didn't surprise me that Fox News would try to pull this off, They say dumb things all the time, But for Cindy McCain to say it is just rediculous.:whatever:

Yeah, tell me about it. I was actually quite disappointed in her. She seemed more intelligent than that.

[DorkyFresh]

addressing the Trig being Bristol's child rumor....i'm sure i'm not the first to notice this, but she WAS holding Trig on Friday. if Trig was truly Sarah and Todd's shouldn't it have been Todd holding Trig instead of Bristol? even backstage photographs show Bristol holding Trig. might just be a coincidence, but it's a coincidence that makes the rumor a little more believable.

Yes, and now Cindy McCain has jumped on that bandwagon.

ba-a-a-a-a-a-a-andwagon is more like it.

[hammy]

I haven't followed that aspect of the story at all, but there is a certain detente that exists between some of the people of Alaska and those of Russia.

[Gilpesh]

Yeah, tell me about it. I was actually quite disappointed in her. She seemed more intelligent than that.

Funny... I was thinking that about McCain until he picked Palin.

[Marx]

Funny... I was thinking that about McCain until he picked Palin.

John McCain isn't the same as he was a few short years ago. That being said, his announcement shocked and repulsed me.

[Superman]

Yeah, tell me about it. I was actually quite disappointed in her. She seemed more intelligent than that.Oh she's a blond, What do you expect?:hehe:













Just kidding:oldrazz:
{Runs from thread in fear of all the blonds out there.}:wow::csad:

[jaguarr]

I disagree. You will notice that the Democratic party isn't touching it with a ten foot pole. I tend to think that the party, so close to winning, would play it up if it would help them.

But go ahead, play it up. Make sure it's on CNN and such.

I can't wait. :)

The Democrats won't touch the story. They don't have to. The media is going to gleefully do it for them. This is the kind of story they have wet dreams about and every reporter in the world is going to be trying to crack it open and get to the bottom of it. The Dem's don't have to even go near it.

jag

[danoyse]

Hey guys, you're missing the point, Palin also lives close to the Pole, so she probably knows........SANTA CLAUS!!!! she could get gifts for all of us!!!! YAY!!!!!

Too late! Jon Stewart already made that joke. Still funny, though. :oldrazz:

[Heretic]

I thnk the daughter is probably a little skank and had a kid out of wedlock...and I also think its a stupid lie to involve yourself in and it really would have been much easier to just say, hey, my daughter isnt ready to raise a child, so were helping her. If its true and it comes out then my biggest issue with it is just the stupidity of those involved for thnking the lie would work.

I think a lot of the speculation is just silly though. "the daughter was holding the baby! The father should do that!". No, teenage daughter often hold and feed the babies and stuff...its nothing that doesnt happen in every household in the country.

[Gilpesh]

I thnk the daughter is probably a little skank and had a kid out of wedlock...

That's sexist. :whatever:

[jaguarr]

The Democrats won't touch the story. They don't have to. The media is going to gleefully do it for them. This is the kind of story they have wet dreams about and every reporter in the world is going to be trying to crack it open and get to the bottom of it. The Dem's don't have to even go near it.

jag

Reading back in the pages of this thread that I missed a bit, I see I'm like the 400th person to come to this conclusion. I thought of it first. Before anyone else. I swear. God, I am brilliant! :hehe:

:(

jag

[jaguarr]

That's sexist. :whatever:

Haha! Oh, Gilpesh, you old ball breaker, you! We need to get you an avatar!

jag

[Marx]

Reading back in the pages of this thread that I missed a bit, I see I'm like the 400th person to come to this conclusion. I thought of it first. Before anyone else. I swear. God, I am brilliant! :hehe:

:(

jag

Yeah, that's right! Everybody down! Kneel before Jag! KNEEL! KNEEL! KNEEL!





:oldrazz:

[Gilpesh]

Haha! Oh, Gilpesh, you old ball breaker, you! We need to get you an avatar!

jag

Seriously... he has to be held to his high standard of respecting women that we were... So calling her a skank is a no-no. It's GASP almost as bad as questioning if a woman can leave her newborn baby to run across the country.

[Superman]

Reading back in the pages of this thread that I missed a bit, I see I'm like the 400th person to come to this conclusion. I thought of it first. Before anyone else. I swear. God, I am brilliant! :hehe:

:(

jagHey, It was the first time I read it. It sounded good to me.:dry:

[hammy]

It's appalling the way some of you are making a meal out of this story when so little is actually known at this point. :dry:

[Gilpesh]

It's appalling the way some of you are making a meal out of this story when so little is actually known at this point. :dry:

It's the Palin version of "Is Obama a muslim?"... so of course people are running with it here. :oldrazz:

[jaguarr]

Yeah, that's right! Everybody down! Kneel before Jag! KNEEL! KNEEL! KNEEL!





:oldrazz:

Hey, Zod and jag DO both have three letters in them. Just saying. :hehe:

jag

[jaguarr]

It's appalling the way some of you are making a meal out of this story when so little is actually known at this point. :dry:

Any woman who can break water in Texas, give 30 more minutes of a speech, drive to the airport, get on a commercial flight to Alaska for eight hours without displaying any signs of discomfort according to the flight crew, drive three hours from the airport in Alaska to Wasilla and THEN have her baby either has a steel vagina, is insane, or is lying and has something to hide. Just sayin'.

jag

[Heretic]

That's sexist. :whatever:

No its not...I think that ONE GIRL probably was a skank. that has nothing to do with being sexist. I think prositutes are skanks as well...and any girl that sleeps around with a bunch of guys...heck..I have a very low opinion of guys who do the same thing. My opinion of the father of this rumored to be teenage pregnancy is every bit as low as the mothers.

[Superman]

Hey, Zod and jag DO both have three letters in them. Just saying. :hehe:

jagI won't kneel before Zod so I sure as hell ain't kneeling before you.:cmad:



:oldrazz:

[jaguarr]

Seriously... he has to be held to his high standard of respecting women that we were... So calling her a skank is a no-no. It's GASP almost as bad as questioning if a woman can leave her newborn baby to run across the country.

Uh-oh....someone's got the Double-Standard Spotlight out and isn't afraid to use it. Gilpesh, I'm lookin' at you! :hehe:

jag

[jaguarr]

I won't kneel before Zod so I sure as hell ain't kneeling before you.:cmad:



:oldrazz:

What if I like....I dunno...break your kneecaps?

jag

[Marx]

Hey, Zod and jag DO both have three letters in them. Just saying. :hehe:

jag

:funny:

[Gilpesh]

No its not...I think that ONE GIRL probably was a skank. that has nothing to do with being sexist. I think prositutes are skanks as well...and any girl that sleeps around with a bunch of guys...heck..I have a very low opinion of guys who do the same thing. My opinion of the father of this rumored to be teenage pregnancy is every bit as low as the mothers.

She could have been in a relationship with the guy?

But you just assumed that she was a skank cause she is a young women that could have been pregnant.

Sexist. :o

[jaguarr]

No its not...I think that ONE GIRL probably was a skank. that has nothing to do with being sexist. I think prositutes are skanks as well...and any girl that sleeps around with a bunch of guys...heck..I have a very low opinion of guys who do the same thing. My opinion of the father of this rumored to be teenage pregnancy is every bit as low as the mothers.

Skank is sort of a sexist term, don't ya think? Don't get me wrong. I agree with you and I think you have used the term appropriately. Just sayin'....it's kind of a sexist term.

jag

[Superman]

What if I like....I dunno...break your kneecaps?

jagTo quote Bush.... Bring it on!! http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/edoom/boxing_smiley.gif

[Marx]

What if I like....I dunno...break your kneecaps?

jag

If you pull a 'Tonya Harding'...Supe won't have a choice. :hehe:

[jaguarr]

To quote Bush.... Bring it on!!http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/edoom/boxing_smiley.gif

Ahhh, so you would just lay there and grovel before jag, then. I find your answer suitable, Earthling.


(I soooooo wanted to make a cheerleader reference to your "Bring It On" line, but I just didn't quite have it in me. :o )

jag

[jaguarr]

If you pull a 'Tonya Harding'...Supe won't have a choice. :hehe:

Someone get me Jeff Gillooly's number, stat!!!! If I can't win the gold then Supes sure as hell isn't going to! :cmad:

jag

[Gilpesh]

Uh-oh....someone's got the Double-Standard Spotlight out and isn't afraid to use it. Gilpesh, I'm lookin' at you! :hehe:

jag

But but but.... it's a fun spotlight... just like in old jail movies where that siren blares and the huge spotlight searches for the crook dressed in black and white stripes.

[jaguarr]

But but but.... it's a fun spotlight... just like in old jail movies where that siren blares and the huge spotlight searches for the crook dressed in black and white stripes.

So, Heretic is a criminal. Interesting. Hmmmm....

jag

[Superman]

Ahhh, so you would just lay there and grovel before jag, then. I find your answer suitable, Earthling.


(I soooooo wanted to make a cheerleader reference to your "Bring It On" line, but I just didn't quite have it in me. :o )

jagTouche.:lmao:

[Heretic]

Skank is not a sexist term, unless the reader assumes that ALL women are skanks, or women are naturally skanks and must rise above it.

My opinion of my ex girlgriend is that shes a backstabbing piece of trash...and my opinion of the dude that beat me up when i was a kid is that he was a worthless piece of trash as well...it has nothing to do with sexism...unless you generalize and group everyone together by their gender ethnicity etc. As a conserviative, I view everyone as individuals...and do not lump everyone into a group and put a stamp on it.

None of us know what really happened...but my wild crazy idea is that the teenager...like many teenage boys and girls was that they had loose morals...if this is true anyway. that isnt sexist...its improperly judging an individual without knowing the facts...something almost everyone in this thread has done. Heck, i mostly said it because I think itd be funny if the rumor was true.