The Official Batman (1989) Thread

[Godzilla2014]

Burton just knew how to light Batman and these movies in general, I really wish Nolan would adopt some of Burton's lighting techniques.

I agree. I think that Tim Burton really knew that Michael Keaton's selling point was his eyes. Though Keaton lacked the imposing physical build that Batman is traditionally associated with having, his stare was great. Burton, and his lighting crew, did a great job in shots only lighting Keaton's eyes to bring his stare to the audience's attention.

[DARKxGOTHAMITE]

Hey Guys...found some juicy nuggets...I apologize if theyre old news xD

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/29746707.jpghttp://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/89-1-sm-.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/toddu.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/76142831.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01gq.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/94971174.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/23744150.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01ex.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01bra.jpg

[Ponyboy]

Whoa! Brilliant pics!

Okay so if Tim Burton ever sees this... Do yourself a favour Tim and release a 25th anniversary hardcover book in 2014 with all these cool photos and a directors cut of the film! Don't think about it. Just do it.

[Reevz666]

Whoa! Brilliant pics!

Okay so if Tim Burton ever sees this... Do yourself a favour Tim and release a 25th anniversary hardcover book in 2014 with all these cool photos and a directors cut of the film! Don't think about it. Just do it.


a book is currently in the works my friend( well, it's being optioned at the moment)...WB isn't really not really into the 89 stuff these days so it's gonna be a bit of a struggle

[Mister Meddle]

You're a beautiful man! Thanks for sharing. For the longest time we wanted a clear scan of this image and now we finally received it.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01gq.jpg

[DARKxGOTHAMITE]

No prob! The profile on the cowl there is fantastic!

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Wow there's a few pics there I honestly haven't seen before, great find that just made my day.

[Indy1Jones]

Hey Guys...found some juicy nuggets...I apologize if theyre old news xD

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/29746707.jpghttp://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/89-1-sm-.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/toddu.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/76142831.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01gq.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/94971174.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/23744150.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01ex.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01bra.jpg

These are epic.

[ALP]

Amazing! A few I haven't seen before.

Btw, what do you(user a few posts above) mean that a B'89 book is being shopped? I'd love to see one as well, unfortunately WB probably aren't thinking about something like that.

I always liked the shields on the Batmobile!

[El Payaso]

Never seen those before. thanks, they're awesome! :up:

[Reevz666]

Amazing! A few I haven't seen before.

Btw, what do you(user a few posts above) mean that a B'89 book is being shopped? I'd love to see one as well, unfortunately WB probably aren't thinking about something like that.



I'm an independent artist( sculptor, fx, props), and have been collecting 89 & Returns since the movie was released ...any of the "making of" vids on youtube, any Herb Ritts press photos, all the behind the scenes B&W pics are from my archives...I only started watermarking them so I could start shopping a book to WB and also so they wouldn't start popping up on ebay ( as my Ritts pics did)...but seeing as how everyone here is eating up the rare stuff, here's something that you all might enjoy ( and i'll leave the water mark off this time ):cwink:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/894.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/89-rev-6.jpg

slightly different version of the one from the official magazine pic
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/89-H.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/89-1-1-1.jpg

[Doctor Jones]

I've never seen some of these pictures before. Fantastic. Goddamn, as said before, Burton knew how to light Batman.

[Travesty]

After seeing these pics, I think it would be cool to see a black&white Batman movie, or a short film. I think it would look good.

[DARKxGOTHAMITE]

Wow! Those are efffiiinnnnnnn amazing! Just....WOW! Thank you!

[Mister Meddle]

Awesome pictures. Thanks for sharing.

[Reevz666]

here's one more:ybat::up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/newritts5.jpg

here's a small section of the Ritts originals I've acquired...they ( among others) will be used for the book proposal
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/d0f7f27c.jpg

[Mister Meddle]

Is that a picture of your collection? I'd love to get a good look at that Joker image on the bottom left corner. The one of him smiling.

[Ponyboy]

Seeing as how everyone here is eating up the rare stuff, here's something that you all might enjoy ( and i'll leave the water mark off this time ):cwink:


Thanks a bunch! These pics are fantastic. :bow:

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/newritts5.jpg

I smell sitcom.

[GREEN =w= DAY]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2136/5752236959_61b50888ba_b.jpg



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2676/5752783498_98bac193a7_b.jpg

a couple of Comic Cons ago, there was a kiosk selling a poster with this image. to this day i regret not buying it and have been looking for one ever since. if anyone on here knows where i can get one it would be greatly appreciated.

[Travesty]

I smell sitcom.
Batman: Did you eat the last piece of cake in the fridge? I told you that was mine.

<Joker smiles and waves his fingers>

Batman: Oh you.......

[Reevz666]

Is that a picture of your collection? I'd love to get a good look at that Joker image on the bottom left corner. The one of him smiling.


yep, that's a pic on took on my phone about week ago

is this the one?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/joker-face-sm.jpg

[ALP]

I'm an independent artist( sculptor, fx, props), and have been collecting 89 & Returns since the movie was released ...any of the "making of" vids on youtube, any Herb Ritts press photos, all the behind the scenes B&W pics are from my archives...I only started watermarking them so I could start shopping a book to WB and also so they wouldn't start popping up on ebay ( as my Ritts pics did)...but seeing as how everyone here is eating up the rare stuff, here's something that you all might enjoy ( and i'll leave the water mark off this time ):cwink:



Wow, that's amazing! Thanks for all the pics.

If I may ask, how did you acquire things like the Herb Ritts photos? Were you involved with the production or was all of this mass released in the 80s and 90s?

A book would be amazing, I hope you have a voice big enough to make WB listen:oldrazz:

[El Payaso]

Reevz666 man. Those pictures are incredible. If I ahd the money/time/knowledge I also would collect as many things about this movie as I could.

If they ever release a book or new DVD with more material about it, I'd be buying it, no question about it.




I smell sitcom.

Nicholsons' Joker would be the Kramer-like character of it.

[ALP]

On the google news feature, you can search for certain things by date to access articles, magazines, and newspapers. I just did a search for Batman between the years of 1988 and 1992(from the production of B'89 to the release of Returns) and got over 13,000 results! Incredible.

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=Batman&btnG=Google+Search#q=Batman&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&sa=X&ei=s83qTYCmN-Lz0gGn-vGgAQ&ved=0CBgQpwUoCw&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1988%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F 31%2F1992&tbm=nws&fp=1&biw=1252&bih=558&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&cad=b

Many articles cost to look at, but a lot are also free.

[Indy1Jones]

This is the greatest Batman treasure ever found. Burton knew what he was doing with this film:up:

[Proximo]

Nice to see you here Shawn, hopefully people will understand better now what I were trying to say a few threads back. If you did not share this stuff, it is very unlikely someone else would, so I think you deserve all the credit you can get and if it means putting a watermark on the (new) photos to do so I think that is ok. Thanks again for sharing.

[bane]

I'm an independent artist( sculptor, fx, props), and have been collecting 89 & Returns since the movie was released ...any of the "making of" vids on youtube, any Herb Ritts press photos, all the behind the scenes B&W pics are from my archives...I only started watermarking them so I could start shopping a book to WB and also so they wouldn't start popping up on ebay ( as my Ritts pics did)...but seeing as how everyone here is eating up the rare stuff, here's something that you all might enjoy ( and i'll leave the water mark off this time ):cwink:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/894.jpg



slightly different version of the one from the official magazine pic




DAMN!:woot:

[Mister Meddle]

yep, that's a pic on took on my phone about week ago

is this the one?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/joker-face-sm.jpg

:applaudExcellent picture! Thanks for filling my request :) Jack Nicholson had the perfect smile/grin in the film and it's a shame that you can't find a decent promotional image of Nicholson's face.

EDIT: I have to bring this up because I know someone else will. :funny: @ the makeup on his collar

[ALP]

EDIT: I have to bring this up because I know someone else will. :funny: @ the makeup on his collar

I swear the makeup designer completely ruined that moment in the film for me... where Joker has the big purple mark on his neck during his reveal. I never noticed it till that wanker mentioned it on the DVD... now everytime I see that scene I am staring at Joker's neck.:dry:

[Godzilla2014]

I swear the makeup designer completely ruined that moment in the film for me... where Joker has the big purple mark on his neck during his reveal. I never noticed it till that wanker mentioned it on the DVD... now everytime I see that scene I am staring at Joker's neck.:dry:

Yeah. Tim Burton even brought it up in his commentary for Batman.

[Mister Meddle]

I swear the makeup designer completely ruined that moment in the film for me... where Joker has the big purple mark on his neck during his reveal. I never noticed it till that wanker mentioned it on the DVD... now everytime I see that scene I am staring at Joker's neck.:dry:
:funny: his makeup was getting all over the place. Surprised they didn't attempt to cover it up in that promotional image with a big orange spot on his neck.

It's hilarious because that big purple spot is clearly visible yet I never noticed it until I watched the extras on the B89 blu ray. And I bet Tim never noticed it until recently.

For old times sake

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4941/large3bghjjkcopy.jpg

[El Payaso]

Same here. Never noticed that untill someone else mentioned a few years ago.

[ALP]

It looks like a big purple hickey. Alicia probably had her purple lipstick on to please Jack.

[The Joker]

With the amazing clarity of blu-ray that purple stain is more noticeable.

How did it get there? None of his facial make up is purple and his hair is green.

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

White makeup rubbed off onto the suit and the makeup guy used purple shoe polish to cover it up.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

White makeup rubbed off onto the suit and the makeup guy used purple shoe polish to cover it up.

Bad mistake on his part and you can he regrests it on the extras, poor guy ruined the jokers reveal.

[Team Andino]

Bad mistake on his part and you can he regrests it on the extras, poor guy ruined the jokers reveal.
Well he didn't exactly ruin it, seeing that the majority of people didn't know about it until reading it online or having someone point it out to them. Sorry if that smudge ruins the whole scene for you though.

[Doc Ock]

Man, these images are jawdropping. I've never seen them before now!

[Reevz666]

If I may ask, how did you acquire things like the Herb Ritts photos? Were you involved with the production or was all of this mass released in the 80s and 90s?
:

the Herb ritts negatives were acquired by a friend I know who worked with Ritts back in the mid eighties and early nineties right before he died...only a select few of the shots were used for promotional purposes ( the trading cards, posters, magazine covers ect.)...the B&W shots are from a large collection of contact sheets that belonged to Jon Peters ( producer on the film)...I do have some that are in color but would need for them to be properly scanned. None of these photos really have ever really seen the light of day, although a few were show cased on the SE DVD's that came out...even a few that "I" had never seen ...not THAT is rare lol:woot:

[Ponyboy]

i worship shots like this. Thanks Reevz



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/894.jpg

[Knight Rise]

i actually saw the spot first time i saw it. i was like "Huh, the Harley Hicky strikes again"

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Anyone else see Michael Keaton putting khakis on in that picture?

[Marx]

here's one more:ybat::up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/newritts5.jpg

here's a small section of the Ritts originals I've acquired...they ( among others) will be used for the book proposal
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/d0f7f27c.jpg

This makes me smile! :woot:

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Well he didn't exactly ruin it, seeing that the majority of people didn't know about it until reading it online or having someone point it out to them. Sorry if that smudge ruins the whole scene for you though.

Well don't take it the wrong way it never ruined the scene for me at all, and btw I noticed the smudge when I was 8 years old probably at that point at my 30th viewing of the film.

I meant the makeup artist seemed really embarrassed of the mistake, like he felt he ruined it. I don't care, smudge or no smudge that is one of my favorite scenes from any batman film of all time.

[Ponyboy]

I'm still kinda puzzled that you guys haven't noticed it. I remember noticing it on VHS back in 89/90. I've been staring at it ever since always wondering how they could've goofed that up. :cwink:

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Ehhh I know what you mean Pony, I noticed it but it could never ruin such an amazing scene for me.

[Ponyboy]

http://latimesherocomplex.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/tim-burton-and-michael-keaton.jpg?w=400&h=224&crop=1

[Mister Meddle]

Great find. Thanks for sharing, Ponyboy.

[Ponyboy]

Here's another...

http://img.wallpaperstock.net:81/batman-1989-wallpapers_25821_1280x960.png

[El Payaso]

It still escapes me why on Earth just Burton has had Batman with the cape covering him. I mean, it's perfect and it's been only him the one doing it. You don't see the bat-cape in its glory unless you see it covering Batman and then open. Can't believe no one had done that again.

[Two-Face]

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z304/Two-Face24/batman-1989-1.jpg]

Goddamn Batman

[Ponyboy]

I wonder if in these shots with Burton/Keaton that Keaton was just nodding but couldn't hear a damn thing :cwink:

[Knight Rise]

you cant nod in that cowl lol

[Reevz666]

I wonder if in these shots with Burton/Keaton that Keaton was just nodding but couldn't hear a damn thing :cwink:


I have a copy of the cowl and I can tell you that it's hard to head anything in it

[Ponyboy]

you cant nod in that cowl lol

oh yeah! :funny:

[DARKxGOTHAMITE]

Found a FEW more goodies :)



http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/70089755.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/033ko.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01dco.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01aih.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01j.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/40679485.jpg

[Ponyboy]

I always hoped Burton would but this scene back in a directors cut or something.






http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01j.jpg

[Marx]

Where are you finding all of these behind the scenes pictures!?!

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I'm actually glad the "Halloween" scene never made it into the film, you see the outake on the extras on the blueray. Keaton smiles and it just ruins the feel of the character for that specific part of the film.

[Mister Meddle]

I'm actually glad the "Halloween" scene never made it into the film, you see the outake on the extras on the blueray. Keaton smiles and it just ruins the feel of the character for that specific part of the film.
I never noticed it on the blu ray.

I remember seeing this on YouTube years ago but it's nowhere to be found nowadays.

[Mister Meddle]

Found a FEW more goodies :)



http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/70089755.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/033ko.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01dco.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01aih.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01j.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/40679485.jpg

Excellent shots. This is why I stick around on the Hype boards. Thanks for sharing.

[Mister Meddle]

Does anyone have any information on this?

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/5151/37116054.jpg

It immediately reminded me of this strip from the comic adaptation:

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/8126/gfgfi.jpg

Could it be a deleted scene? Is this mentioned in the script? (I only read half of it awhile back)

[Godzilla2014]

Does anyone have any information on this?

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/5151/37116054.jpg

It immediately reminded me of this strip from the comic adaptation:

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/8126/gfgfi.jpg

Could it be a deleted scene? Is this mentioned in the script? (I only read half of it awhile back)

Yeah that scene's just weird. It would have made no sense in the film.

[Mister Meddle]

I don't know how credible it is but this is what I found:

http://sfy.ru/?script=batman_production
VOICE Batman's fallen to the ground. Over there. Vicki spins around. LOOKS in that direction and follows the voice. EXT. CATHEDRAL GROUNDS - NIGHT People run toward the place where Batman has fallen. CLOSER We see the figure of Batman completely covered with his cape, face-down in the courtyard. A CIRCLE OF PEOPLE, press, and police surround him. Commissioner Gordon steps into the circle. VOICE Turn him over, now we'll see who this guy is. Gordon approaches the body. Vicki RUSHES UP. Looks down at the cape-covered body. Looking at her camera, conflicted, she raises it to take her prize photo. ON CAPE -- as Gordon pulls back cape and turns over the body. TIGHT ON FACE -- it's not Bruce Wayne, it's a groggy Alexander Knox (in his own clothes). ON VICKI -- she flashes a picture and brings down her camera. A smile plays across her face. ON KNOX -- he blinks his eyes at the light. KNOX Can I still make the late edition? EXT. ELSEWHERE IN THE SQUARE - NIGHT Through a crowd, A MAN walks into a side street. He turns around. It's Bruce Wayne. He's got his utility belt over his shoulder. He DISAPPEARS into the darkness.

[BATS N' HORNETS]

GUYS, THAT SCENE WAS IN ONE OF THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTS, before Warren Scarem (sp?) took over on writing duties.

I believe that Denny O'neil wrote the adaptation comic and was working from an earlier script that was in place before the writer's strike of 1988.

[Godzilla2014]

I don't know how credible it is but this is what I found:

GUYS, THAT SCENE WAS IN ONE OF THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTS, before Warren Scarem (sp?) took over on writing duties.

I believe that Denny O'neil wrote the adaptation comic and was working from an earlier script that was in place before the writer's strike of 1988.

Still, thank God that scene didn't make it into the movie. I imagine if it had, then it may be the most *****ed about part of the film, or at least up there with Jack Napier killing Thomas & Martha Wayne and then becoming Joker, and Alfred letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave.

[Mister Meddle]

I don't have a problem with Joker killing the Waynes or Vale being escorted to the cave.

It does sound pretty weird. According to the script, it goes from that scene where the Joker is laying dead on the ground and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Knox is just laying down on the sidewalk covered with Batman's cape and cowl.

[bullets]

I watched this on blu ray last night. Well worth the upgrade.

Some stuff seems silly looking back but it's still a lot of fun. I don't mind Joker killing Wayne's parents , it worked for this film. Alfred letting Vickie into the cave seems odd but right before that Bruce was in the process of telling her everything before Joker interrupted them. It kind of makes sense he'd allow her in at that point.

[Mister Meddle]

Alfred was a father figure and like most fathers, he did what he felt was best for Bruce. He cared for him since he was a kid and thought it was time for him to live a normal life, as if Vicki was his only hope.

[The Joker]

I hated Alfred letting Vicki into the cave. Her and Bruce had ONE date and all of a sudden she was his salvation. I was glad they made fun of that in Returns.

[Mister Meddle]

:funny: @ Bruce sounding like a smart ass when Alfred brought up the security issue.

Security? Who took Vicki Vale to the Batcave? I was sitting there working, turned around and there she is. "Oh hi Vick, come on in!"

[Ponyboy]

I hated Alfred letting Vicki into the cave. Her and Bruce had ONE date and all of a sudden she was his salvation. I was glad they made fun of that in Returns.

I think Alfred did it because he knew Bruce was trying to let her in (not into the cave, into his life) but he was so far into his Batman persona that he couldnt do it without a little push. It never bothered me that much that he let her into the Cave... I think it worked within the film more than seeing it on the printed page. I suppose, though, that you could make the same argument for him taking his mask off in Batman Returns.

[Godzilla2014]

I don't have a problem with Joker killing the Waynes or Vale being escorted to the cave.

Well, they are frequently *****ed about. I will say that the Joker killing the Waynes does entirely change the context of the event. Now the Waynes are the victims of a mob hit, not a random mugging gone violent.

It does sound pretty weird. According to the script, it goes from that scene where the Joker is laying dead on the ground and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Knox is just laying down on the sidewalk covered with Batman's cape and cowl.

It is.

I watched this on blu ray last night. Well worth the upgrade.

Some stuff seems silly looking back but it's still a lot of fun. I don't mind Joker killing Wayne's parents , it worked for this film. Alfred letting Vickie into the cave seems odd but right before that Bruce was in the process of telling her everything before Joker interrupted them. It kind of makes sense he'd allow her in at that point.

Alfred is lucky he wasn't sacked on the principle of letting a reporter into his master's most private headquarters of his most private crusade without his explicit permission. Did I say "most private" enough?

Alfred was a father figure and like most fathers, he did what he felt was best for Bruce. He cared for him since he was a kid and thought it was time for him to live a normal life, as if Vicki was his only hope.

That's nice, but still, there's a principle to the thing. Don't invite the reporter to the goddamn Batcave. If you do, then you have to pay her hush money, and then the payments are discovered, and then the president is revealed to be full of **** for denying his involvement, and then he gets impeached and resigns. Oh wait, that was the Watergate scandal.:grin:

Anyway, what Alfred should have done is told Bruce that Vicki was at Wayne Manor, and assuming that he is still a red-blooded American, and not a douchebag or some variety of *******, he would come out of the damn cave.

I hated Alfred letting Vicki into the cave. Her and Bruce had ONE date and all of a sudden she was his salvation. I was glad they made fun of that in Returns.

I agree.

:funny: @ Bruce sounding like a smart ass when Alfred brought up the security issue.

Security? Who took Vicki Vale to the Batcave? I was sitting there working, turned around and there she is. "Oh hi Vick, come on in!"

I liked that.

[Travesty]

Found a FEW more goodies :)



http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/70089755.jpg
Was this actually associated with B89? I've never seen this before.

[El Payaso]

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/01j.jpg

This was very weird.

I remember back in 1989 I wanted a scene with Batman and a child in an alley so he could show more than just anger.

And it did happen but it was cut off.

[Ponyboy]

Wow... your tastes are so... specific. :cwink:

[Doctor Jones]

Ugh, her delivery of the line kills it for me. Plus it just doesn't really fit the context for me.

[Travesty]

Ugh, her delivery of the line kills it for me. Plus it just doesn't really fit the context for me.Yeah, I wasn't a fan of the scene, and was happy they left it out.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Considering the much discussed script problems with this film... they ended up making some very smart decisions.

[Doctor Jones]

There were on the set rewrites too. They were constantly rewriting dialogue on the spot at times.

[El Payaso]

edit

[El Payaso]

Wow... your tastes are so... specific. :cwink:

Haha, no, really. Batman is always rescuing people in alleys. The child was my addition.

[Ponyboy]

http://www.aintitcool.com/images2009/BTSjackjoker.jpg

[Doctor Jones]

Watching this film on AMC, I've come around to the idea of Joker's smile being frozen. it's kind of disturbing if you think about it. Aside from the fact the docotr said the nerves were completely severed, his smile is a gruesome work of art. Just never changing. That frozen, unnatrual smile. It's kind of disturbing to think of what the doctor did to him to make him that way. It's apart of him now.

I just love how Joker fancies himself as an artist. He even admits to being a homicidal artist.

Him dancing to pop music over dozens of dead bodies while defacing art is so Joker.

[Mister Meddle]

The smile of the devil...

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/1733/btmn0834.jpg

[El Payaso]

Watching this film on AMC, I've come around to the idea of Joker's smile being frozen. it's kind of disturbing if you think about it. Aside from the fact the docotr said the nerves were completely severed, his smile is a gruesome work of art. Just never changing. That frozen, unnatrual smile. It's kind of disturbing to think of what the doctor did to him to make him that way. It's apart of him now.

I just love how Joker fancies himself as an artist. He even admits to being a homicidal artist.

Him dancing to pop music over dozens of dead bodies while defacing art is so Joker.

I absolutely agree.

I reckon that the black humour in the movie disguised much of the gruesomeness of the Joker's actions. Talking to a charred body and then trying to choke him, or dancing amongst corpses, nothing short of shocking. But, since this was 20+ years ago, it had to be toned down somehow. But the actions are there.

[Doctor Jones]

Joker definitely had that black humor. He absolutely loved to kill people. Which I love. He did it for laughs, which is nothing short of pure Joker.

Him talking to the charred body and then snapping his neck with the tie is the most disturibing thing he does in the movie. It bothered me alot when I was a youngling. I mean Jesus, he's asking a dead body that he killed about what he should do to take over the mob. That's ****ing psychotic. But I love it now.

I also loved when he keeps on shooting Grisham until he empties his gun. He doesn't even seem to care that he misses at points. He got a kick out of it. Then I always laugh when he sighs and says, "Ahhhh what a day!"

And I love the scene when he's at Grisham's desk. When he wipes his bloody hands on the newspaper and it covers it. Such awesome imagery. Nicholson looks like Dick Sprang's Joker to me. And Bill Finger's at points.

Nicholson's sense of humor for the Joker was spot on. The Joker commercials: "That luscious tan! Those ruby lips! And hair color so natural, only your undertaker knows for sure."

when he's talking to the mob bosses, "Until Grisham... uh... resurfaces hehe... I'm now acting president."

Then when he does the Jack Palance impression.

[ChocheTheHero]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SXZE1Y7erlk/TGvnzV3b68I/AAAAAAABBI0/Z0c0WNleXwE/s1600/2.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SXZE1Y7erlk/TGvnzN7BnrI/AAAAAAABBIs/m--KQ2MfA6w/s1600/3.jpg

[Two-Face]

Nice pictures

[Doctor Jones]

I love the Smilex commercial. It's so Joker and Nicholson is brilliant in it.

[DARKxGOTHAMITE]

Gahhh! Those are great!!!!!! Thanks for sharing!

[ShaneHelms]

Thought i would share something i made. I always loved the artwork in the 89 comic adaptation.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/shanehelms121/untitled-5.jpg

[Mister Meddle]

I have the B89 comic adaptation on my computer. It's a fun read and the art is amazing.

[Ponyboy]

Who did the art? Looks like Jerry Ordway.

[ShaneHelms]

That's who did it.

[Spicy]

hey guys, i have a question about the blu ray and im sorry if this has been asked before:

what's the difference between the 20th anniversery 2 disc blu ray
http://www.amazon.com/Batman-20th-Anniversary-Blu-ray-Book/dp/B001W6S0C6/ref=sr_1_10?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1308811690&sr=1-10

and the single disc blu ray?

http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Blu-ray-Michael-Keaton/dp/B0039208JE/ref=sr_1_7?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1308811690&sr=1-7

does one of them have more special features or deleted scenes or something like that?

[Ponyboy]

I believe the only difference is the packaging and that you get a nice little book with the 20th anniversary version. The disc itself, and it's content are the same.

Someone correct me if i'm wrong please. ;)

[Spidey 2007]

I believe the only difference is the packaging and that you get a nice little book with the 20th anniversary version. The disc itself, and it's content are the same.

Someone correct me if i'm wrong please. ;)

I will not correct you because you are 100% right!

go for the Anniversary Edition if you want the spiffiest packaged version of Batman 89. Its awesome in a collection. But the regular release will suit you fine if you dont care and just want the film!

[Ponyboy]

Pity, really. The film deserves a better treatment.

[Spicy]

thanks guys :)

[BATS N' HORNETS]

I always preferred the DVD anthology box set. Blu-ray shmoo-ray.

[Spidey 2007]

Pity, really. The film deserves a better treatment.

Yea, it does really. but if you look at other great films and their blu ray/DVD treatment, it could be worse!

I do like the DVD boxset more than the blu ray, but the quality of the films on blu ray kills the DVD.

The perks to the DVD set are the Menus!! The menus on the blu rays suck. the DVD set also has second discs with each movie and the have some COOL images on them. The blu rays only get one disc with everything piled on it, so we dont get the extra artwork. Overall I like the DVD boxset better for packaging and presentation features, but the HD quality of the blu ray is just TOO good not to be definitive.

[Travesty]

I have both the Blu Ray and DVD anthology, and both boxes look exactly the same, except the Blu Ray is shorter and skinnier.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

The transfers for 89 and BR were very well done, though still sometimes thinking about throwing in the old 89 vhs for nostalgic value sounds exciting.

haha they shouldve kept the bugs bunny commercial in the beginning as an extra on the dvd and blueray.

[RedSkull]

What benefits are there for those of you who bought the blu ray anthology as opposed to just the blu ray (which I bought)? Aren't the special features just DVD transfers?

[Mace Dolex]

Thought i would share something i made. I always loved the artwork in the 89 comic adaptation.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/shanehelms121/untitled-5.jpg

Too bad the other Batman movie comic adaptations didn't have art this good.

[Travesty]

haha they shouldve kept the bugs bunny commercial in the beginning as an extra on the dvd and blueray.I liked the Coca Cola commercial more, but the Bugs Bunny one is good, too. :awesome:
b7b0L70p8sg

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Alfred drinking the diet coke is priceless, haha I always wanted my diet coke to have a bat cape.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Too bad the other Batman movie comic adaptations didn't have art this good.

Didn't the same artists do the BR and BF adaptions?

[A_R_H]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1040

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1040

[Mace Dolex]

Didn't the same artists do the BR and BF adaptions?
Batman Returns - Steve Erwin w/ Jose Garcia Lopez doing inks

Batman Forever - Michal Dutkiewicz

Batman & Robin - Rodolfo Damaggio

[Cobblepot]

Didn't the same artists do the BR and BF adaptions?

Jerry Ordway did the art for 89. Returns was done by Lopez, which is also awsome!

[ShaneHelms]

Yes it is. I made a collage of the artwork in the Returns adaptation and posted it in the Returns thread. I was cleaning up my photobucket account and happened to find this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/shanehelms121/1243968438.jpg

[Mister Meddle]

Yes it is. I made a collage of the artwork in the Returns adaptation and posted it in the Returns thread. I was cleaning up my photobucket account and happened to find this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/shanehelms121/1243968438.jpg
That's pretty damn good. Thanks for sharing. :applaud

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Ok well I stand corrected, as a kid it always looked very similar to me, I still have the 89 and BR comics but they're in pretty bad shape.

[The Joker]

You can get them in reprint in a collected TPB along with Schumacher's movie comic adaptions.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Well though I'd prefer the original versions, I may look into that thanks Joker.

[ThDWgeek]

On the whole, I like this film. The atmosphere, the design, the cast, and Danny Elfman's music are all good to excellent in terms of quality. The Prince songs however, are really pretty bad :barf:

[Marx]

Don't you dare speak against Prince! :argh:

[Ponyboy]

The Prince songs however, are really pretty bad :barf:

He was an odd choice to do the soundtrack, but I don't think they are necessarily bad songs. Maybe a bit dated. Every time I hear the opening to Scandalous I remember watching the movie on VHS for the first time during Christmas '89. :yay:

[The Caped Knight]

Thought i would share something i made. I always loved the artwork in the 89 comic adaptation.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/shanehelms121/untitled-5.jpg

I have the comic adaptation of this and the other three films. As well as the one for Batman Begins . I am surprised DC comics didn't release one for The Dark Knight film .

[Mister Meddle]

Isn't the BB comic adaptation on the DVD extras? The last time I bothered to check out the extras was a few years. And what about the blu ray?

[The Caped Knight]

Isn't the BB comic adaptation on the DVD extras? The last time I bothered to check out the extras was a few years. And what about the blu ray?

It's not the entire adaptation it just a section of the film that deals with Batman entering the Scarecrow narrows hideout and being exposed to the hallucination fear gas .

[SHADOWBAT69]

Don't you dare speak against Prince! :argh:

This!

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Well I know if somebody gave me the choice... i'd rather not have Prince on the soundtrack.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I love the prince songs and in just the last few years acquired the prince batman album I listen to it in the shower all the time lol. In all seriousness listening to it puts me in a good mood and brings back alot of memories, plus I just love the songs and Prince.

[Travesty]

Ha, I don't know why, but I don't mind the Prince music. I'm not even a Prince fan.

Or maybe I am, and I don't even know it. :wow:

[RedSkull]

Gentlemen...lets broaden our minds...lawrence

[returntovoid]

Well I know if somebody gave me the choice... i'd rather not have Prince on the soundtrack.

Ha, I don't know why, but I don't mind the Prince music. I'm not even a Prince fan.

As much as I despise Prince, it went well with The Joker's clownishness in Batman 1989.

[The Joker]

I really disliked the Prince tracks. They had no place in a Batman movie. Even Burton regrets putting them into the movie.

[Doctor Jones]

If you think about it, the pop nature of this song with Joker and his goons dancing and defacing over dead bodies is completely sick. Just pure Joker.

It dates the movie, but if you think of it as just a pop song in general, it's fine.

[The Joker]

I've never seen Joker use pop music while pulling off any of his crimes.

In fact the only time I've ever seen him play any kind of music in his escapades was in the BTAS episode, Christmas with the Joker, where he played "Dance of the sugar plum fairies" from the Nutcracker suite by Tchaikovsky, in the scene where he tried to kill Batman and Robin using giant toy soldiers.

[Marx]

If you think about it, the pop nature of this song with Joker and his goons dancing and defacing over dead bodies is completely sick. Just pure Joker.

It dates the movie, but if you think of it as just a pop song in general, it's fine.

Exactly.

[RedSkull]

I love the Joker's commercial track from the extended score.

[Ponyboy]

I really disliked the Prince tracks. They had no place in a Batman movie. Even Burton regrets putting them into the movie.

REally? I don't recall him saying that eh. I wonder if it was a studio decision that he didn't have much control over, or was pressured into?

[Doctor Jones]

I've never seen Joker use pop music while pulling off any of his crimes.

In fact the only time I've ever seen him play any kind of music in his escapades was in the BTAS episode, Christmas with the Joker, where he played "Dance of the sugar plum fairies" from the Nutcracker suite by Tchaikovsky, in the scene where he tried to kill Batman and Robin using giant toy soldiers.

That doesn't mean it's not within the Joker's character to do so.

The fact he did it gleefully. Over pop music. I see Nicholson's Joker as a perversion of nature and art in a sense. As the plastic surgeon did to his face. He re did him. To reconstruct and paint, etc. That's art. But twisted in the Joker's case. It's unnatural and violates what's otherwise unnatural to do to someone's face into something of a monstrosity. Joker is a ****ed up piece of art. And him in an art museum defacing its art while dancing over dead bodies while listening to "art" (depending on your taste to it) is pretty brilliant.

[The Joker]

REally? I don't recall him saying that eh. I wonder if it was a studio decision that he didn't have much control over, or was pressured into?

http://books.google.ie/books?id=PXWbtU-85RYC&pg=PA78&dq=tim+burton+prince+music&cd=3#v=onepage&q=tim%20burton%20prince%20music&f=false

It starts at the bottom of this page and continues onto the next. As you can see it was down to the studio. Burton said it was painful to put it into the movie and also intrusive. He said it completely lost him.

He loves Prince, but not for a Batman movie. It was all a marketing thing by WB.

That doesn't mean it's not within the Joker's character to do so.

There's a lot of things that's not out of Joker's capacity that he has not done. That doesn't negate the fact that dancing around to pop music like Prince is not something that is at all affiliated with the character. Joker doesn't care about pop music. I'd even go so far as to say he'd call music like that an ear sore.

The fact he did it gleefully. Over pop music.

There's a lot of ways he could have been gleeful about it. Pop music wasn't necessary and it didn't feel right for someone like the Joker.

He doesn't use music like that to show he's enjoying something.

I see Nicholson's Joker as a perversion of nature and art in a sense. As the plastic surgeon did to his face. He re did him. To reconstruct and paint, etc. That's art. But twisted in the Joker's case. It's unnatural and violates what's otherwise unnatural to do to someone's face into something of a monstrosity. Joker is a ****ed up piece of art. And him in an art museum defacing its art while dancing over dead bodies while listening to "art" (depending on your taste to it) is pretty brilliant.

Not to me it wasn't. I get that Joker thought he was an artist. He thought gruesome looking stuff was artistic (He loved Vicki's photos of the bodies in Corto Maltese). I can even see him wrecking paintings in a museum because he thinks he can do better art than that. Romero's Joker did it in the 1960's Batman show, too.

But the Prince music made all feel off for me. Horribly dates the movie, too. Mr. Burton also felt the same way. It just didn't suit his Batman's world or the Joker. WB whored it in for marketing purposes.

[Marx]

What type of music would you have preferred in that scene if not Prince?

[Lead Cenobite]

I've never seen Joker use pop music while pulling off any of his crimes.

In fact the only time I've ever seen him play any kind of music in his escapades was in the BTAS episode, Christmas with the Joker, where he played "Dance of the sugar plum fairies" from the Nutcracker suite by Tchaikovsky, in the scene where he tried to kill Batman and Robin using giant toy soldiers.

You comic fans are awfully damn specific about what you expect from these characters. Whether or not the Joker likes pop music was not a question Bob Kane asked himself when he created him. And the fact is, beyond the main concept of the character(evil clown), they change. If the Joker can be both a harmless prankster and a homicidal, depraved monster, he can be a guy who just happens to enjoy Prince. To me, it comes off as this random, off the wall detail that you wouldn't expect from someone like him. It's just as chaotic and random as I'd expect him to be. This is the character who some writers have said reinvents himself every day.

[The Joker]

What type of music would you have preferred in that scene if not Prince?

None at all. The Joker doesn't play music of any kind when he's pulling off his crimes.

Have you ever seen him stick on a stereo and dance around the place to pop music in any of his stories? I know I haven't. The only reason it was done was for marketing reasons by WB.

You comic fans are awfully damn specific about what you expect from these characters.

Every fan has specifics and expectations. It comes from being fans of the characters. Every single Batman fan is guilty of that. The only difference is the standard of expectations each person has.

Whether or not the Joker likes pop music was not a question Bob Kane asked himself when he created him.

That's because Bob Kane didn't create him. Bill Finger did.

But I think your point is irrelevant. Who cares what was thought of when the character was first created? There was a lot of things that were not thought of when he was first created that became a staple of the character later on. Same with Batman.

And the fact is, beyond the main concept of the character(evil clown), they change. If the Joker can be both a harmless prankster and a homicidal, depraved monster, he can be a guy who just happens to enjoy Prince.

Not to me he cannot. If you liked Joker dancing to Prince then that's your business. I don't equate the Joker with such behavior for the simple reason I have never ever seen him play pop music in any kind of capacity. He doesn't listen to pop music. He doesn't play music, not in his spare time and certainly not when he's out pulling off his crimes.

It all felt wrong to me.

To me, it comes off as this random, off the wall detail that you wouldn't expect from someone like him.

That's why I don't like it. I don't expect that from the Joker. It didn't feel right.

It's just as chaotic and random as I'd expect him to be.

Then your expectations of the Joker are very different to mine. I don't care if you or anyone else liked it. That's not what I'm disputing. Your preferences are your own.

There are people who hate the fact that Batman killed people in this movie even though they acknowledge it was done in the early years of the comics it's not the kind of characterization they equate to Batman or like Batman to have. I can't even say I've read a version of the Joker who likes pop music. So to not like it is not unreasonable.

This is the character who some writers have said reinvents himself every day.

When he reinvents himself into someone who likes to shake his booty to Prince, then I'll find this more acceptable. Over 20 years later since this movie, I'm guessing even these writers you speak of don't think Joker would reinvent himself into that since it's not been done yet in the comics.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

What type of music would you have preferred in that scene if not Prince?

Classical music... or im sure Elfman could have whipped something effective up.

[Ponyboy]

Michael Keaton interviewing himself...

DHdlPS2Lh04

[returntovoid]

That doesn't mean it's not within the Joker's character to do so.

The fact he did it gleefully. Over pop music. I see Nicholson's Joker as a perversion of nature and art in a sense. As the plastic surgeon did to his face. He re did him. To reconstruct and paint, etc. That's art. But twisted in the Joker's case. It's unnatural and violates what's otherwise unnatural to do to someone's face into something of a monstrosity. Joker is a ****ed up piece of art. And him in an art museum defacing its art while dancing over dead bodies while listening to "art" (depending on your taste to it) is pretty brilliant.

I agree.

[GothamAlleys]

The Joker doesn't play music of any kind when he's pulling off his crimes.

Have you ever seen him stick on a stereo and dance around the place to pop music in any of his stories? I know I haven't.

You oughta do more reading my friend - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2010/09/complete-history-of-joker.html

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Michael Keaton interviewing himself...

DHdlPS2Lh04

''Is it true you had never seen an episode of Batman, read a comic book... or in fact can even spell Batman?'' :funny:

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

The Joker can do whatever he wants to do in each different version and interpretaion, it dosent taint the character just changes a little bit from every version before or after. I love the prince music and I understand your points but, your stuck with it in 89 so everytime you view the film you'll have to hear it (unless you mute the parts which would suck). So deal with it :)

[returntovoid]

The Joker can do whatever he wants to do in each different version and interpretaion, it dosent taint the character just changes a little bit from every version before or after. I love the prince music and I understand your points but, your stuck with it in 89 so everytime you view the film you'll have to hear it (unless you mute the parts which would suck). So deal with it :)

Exactly!

[The Joker]

You oughta do more reading my friend - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2010/09/complete-history-of-joker.html

I'm sorry, man, but one random obscure panel of Joker doing some brief little tap dance on the spot does not equate to two over blown scenes of dancing all over the place to Prince music. I've seen Penguin, Riddler, Mad Hatter etc do little happy dances on the spot. I would hardly expect them to break out a stereo and play Prince when they pull off their crimes, too

The only reason Prince was in this movie was for marketing reasons. Read it for yourself from Burton and how much he loathed putting this music in the movie: http://books.google.ie/books?id=PXWbtU-85RYC&pg=PA78&dq=tim+burton+prince+music&cd=3#v=onepage&q=tim%20burton%20prince%20music&f=false

It had nothing to do with Joker having a penchant for dancing to pop music while pulling off his crimes, because he doesn't.

The Joker can do whatever he wants to do in each different version and interpretaion, it dosent taint the character just changes a little bit from every version before or after.

That's your opinion, man. It might not affect your viewing of the character, but it does for me.

I love the prince music and I understand your points but, your stuck with it in 89 so everytime you view the film you'll have to hear it (unless you mute the parts which would suck). So deal with it :)

Do you use this weak line of reasoning to everyone who has complaints about a movie?

"Well it's in the movie so just deal with it". Pretty stupid thing to say. No offense.

[Two-Face]

Michael Keaton interviewing himself...

DHdlPS2Lh04

Michael Douglas played Batman! :funny: :D

Seriously I like the name Keaton a lot it suits him.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

It wasn't a weak line of reasoning, the last part you quoted was the truth, what did you think that magically because you don't like the Prince music or "think" that in your opinion Joker wouldn't dance to it that it would just go away. Saying deal with it just means it's not going to ever leave the film which is truth and fact, they will never re-release the film without it because you or Burton don't enjoy it.

I appreciate your opinion as always, but you saying that The Joker wouldn't dance to pop music as if you personally know each completly different interpretation of the character just dosent work for me. I feel like any writer can change what they want about the character as long as their core remains the same, it'll just be a new different version and interpretation. I'm open to changes, and while I do think that the Prince music does date the film, I don't think that it taints the character of The Joker by having him enjoy Prince music.

[The Joker]

It wasn't a weak line of reasoning, the last part you quoted was the truth, what did you think that magically because you don't like the Prince music or "think" that in your opinion Joker wouldn't dance to it that it would just go away.

What are you talking about?!? Where on earth did I say I think because I don't like it the movie would suddenly change or go away? Are you actually reading what you're saying here? Do you equate everyone who has a complaint about a movie are under the impression that it's suddenly going to change or go away just to suit them?

You don't see why your remark was weak?

Saying deal with it just means it's not going to ever leave the film which is truth and fact, they will never re-release the film without it because wether you or Burton don't enjoy it.

Saying deal with it was a silly arrogant thing to say. What choice has anyone got but to deal with it? I could understand you saying this to me if I was always raiding this thread complaining about it on some kind of constant basis, that would suggest I had a problem dealing with it. But just because someone dislikes something in a movie doesn't mean they are unable to deal with it.

Your remark was not only unnecessary but rather stupid, too. Again no offense.

There are other elements of this Joker that were changed such as his whole dynamic with Batman being changed because he was made the killer of Batman's parents. His whole chasing after Vicki Vale like some love sick psycho stalker. These are not elements you strongly associate with Joker's personality either, or have been used in any kind of landmark Joker story etc.

But they didn't bother me as much as the Prince stuff mainly because it seemed completely against Joker's taste to do his crimes that way and because the songs are unsuitable for a Batman movie and really date it.

I appreciate your opinion as always, but you saying that The Joker wouldn't dance to pop music as if you personally know each completly different interpretation of the character

Then prove me wrong. Show me a version of The Joker where he plays pop music like that when pulling off his crimes. I repeat again, it was not put in the movie for characterization reasons. It was put in for marketing reasons by WB. Straight from Burton's mouth.

I've seen Penguin, Riddler, Mad Hatter etc do giddy little dances of glee on the spot, but I don't expect them to whip out a stereo and play pop music when they goes out for a crime.

Now you or anyone else can like the Prince stuff as much as you like. That's your preference and I'm not disputing that.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I understand Joker, and I understand and appreciate your point of view on the matter. I guess I didn't fully understand what you were saying when I read your posts. I know the whole Prince thing was marketing and for WB to make as much money as possible which they did.

I know I've never seen Joker dancing to pop music in the comics or anywhere else that I can recall other than 89 but my thing is does that mean that it couldn't or shouldn't happen NO. My argument is really wether you like or dislike the music but that I believe IMO I can see 89s version of Joker dancing to it, considering that's the version he is. He's not the 60's show version or the version from most of the comics, he's The Joker they wanted him to be for the film, and to me the core of the character is in tact in the movie.

I guess when it comes down to it I believe I can see The Joker dancing to pop music and him still being the character I know and love. I don't care if he's done it in the comics before. I never saw Batman wear all black in the comics before 89 and I like it better than how he looks in the comics, after I saw 89 when I was 5 years old. For me as a fan, it dosent have to be seen in the comics for it to be in line with who the character is.

[The Joker]

I understand Joker, and I understand and appreciate your point of view on the matter. I guess I didn't fully understand what you were saying when I read your posts. I know the whole Prince thing was marketing and for WB to make as much money as possible which they did.

I know I've never seen Joker dancing to pop music in the comics or anywhere else that I can recall other than 89 but my thing is does that mean that it couldn't or shouldn't happen NO. My argument is really wether you like or dislike the music but that I believe IMO I can see 89s version of Joker dancing to it, considering that's the version he is. He's not the 60's show version or the version from most of the comics, he's The Joker they wanted him to be for the film, and to me the core of the character is in tact in the movie.

And that's all fine, man. I agree with your stance to unique versions of the characters. Batman Returns is my second favorite Batman movie and that features the most bizarre out of character versions of Penguin and Catwoman you can find. The people who don't like them because they feel so different to the comics, I can understand their stance on it. That goes back to what I've been saying from the get-go. You enjoying the Prince stuff is your preference. I am not disputing that. I am stating mine and it seems to be unintentionally ruffling some feathers who can't seem to handle it.

We all know Batman 1989 had some influence on the comics. On BTAS as well. So did Batman Returns. But they've yet to incorporate the Joker and the pop music penchant he had in it into the comics. Into any comic. I mean over 20 years later and no writer has done it. Personally I think that's because they, like Burton, don't think it's a trait that the Joker would have. It was just WB whoring out Prince for marketing purposes.

If you liked it, more power to you. It just wasn't to my taste for the reasons I've already mentioned.

[DARKxGOTHAMITE]

all the Prince hate hurts my soul lol that movie wouldnt have the same effect or memory for me without his music, whenever i hear the soundtrack my mind rolls the footage in my mind i can frame for frame visualize what moment in the film this song is playing in, even the Electric Chair and Vicky Waiting which were just background noise at some points.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb243/AndreIbarra89/l_1663dbfe18a482f8a36092be72dd4747.jpg

Juss sayin, dont hate, thats my childhood your poopin on :woot::whatever::word::oldrazz::hrt:

[Marx]

I enjoy Prince's songs on the soundtrack.

[returntovoid]

^Batman 1989 is one of my favorite comic book films besides Batman Returns regardless of that one tolerable flaw. I don't consider Alfred letting Vicki into the Batcave to be a flaw because she was intuitive enough to figure out his secret-identity and I thought Joker being the murder of his parents worked well.

[The Joker]

Writer Sam Hamm didn't like that either:

Comic book fans reacted negatively over the Joker murdering Thomas and Martha Wayne. In the comic book, Joe Chill is responsible. Writer Sam Hamm, who is a comic book fan, said it was Burton's idea to have the Joker murder Wayne's parents. "The Writer's Strike was going on," Hamm continued, "and Tim had the other writers do that. I also hold innocent to Alfred letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave," he reasoned. "Fans were ticked off with that, and I agree. That would have been Alfred's last day of employment at Wayne Manor."

http://hubpages.com/hub/the-batman

I can take or leave the Joker killing Batman's parents. Though Batman and Joker only had one confrontation in the whole movie and it was disappointing that it was all centered around Batman being pissed Joker killed his parents. That's not the nature of their feud to me.

I absolutely agree with Hamm that Alfred had no business just letting Vicki into the cave without Bruce's consent. Bruce barely knew her. It's funny how they had a little dig at that in Returns.

[Mister Meddle]

Security? Who took Vickie Vale to the Batcave? I was sitting there working, turned around and there she is. Oh hi Vick, come on in.

[returntovoid]

Security? Who took Vickie Vale to the Batcave? I was sitting there working, turned around and there she is. Oh hi Vick, come on in.

:lmao:

That was a good line, Batman Returns was definitely superior but I like both equally.

[Mister Meddle]

Batman (1989) is a better Batman movie but Batman Returns is a superior film.

[returntovoid]

Batman (1989) is a better Batman movie but Batman Returns is a superior film.

I think both are great as Batman films.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I like both 89 and BR equally, they're two really different and separate interpretations of the Batman world and characters. Both are dark sadisitic fun, but obviously BR is a much deeper dark view of Gotham.

[Cobblepot]

Writer Sam Hamm didn't like that either:



http://hubpages.com/hub/the-batman

I can take or leave the Joker killing Batman's parents. Though Batman and Joker only had one confrontation in the whole movie and it was disappointing that it was all centered around Batman being pissed Joker killed his parents. That's not the nature of their feud to me.

I absolutely agree with Hamm that Alfred had no business just letting Vicki into the cave without Bruce's consent. Bruce barely knew her. It's funny how they had a little dig at that in Returns.

Then who came up with the whole "pale moonlight" speech? It was essential in Bruce's awereness that Joker killed his parents...

[El Payaso]

^Batman 1989 is one of my favorite comic book films besides Batman Returns regardless of that one tolerable flaw. I don't consider Alfred letting Vicki into the Batcave to be a flaw because she was intuitive enough to figure out his secret-identity and I thought Joker being the murder of his parents worked well.

Alfred spent the movie trying to talk some sense into Bruce's head. Tried once and again to stop him from hurting Vicky's emotions and even tried to show that a normal relationship could be healthy and even healing for him. In the end the old man was forced to do what was right because Bruce wouldn't do it.

I can see Alfred doing that and not giving one single damn if that meant his last day at Wayne Manor.

[Hobgoblin]

^Exactly.

[The Joker]

I used to agree with Payaso's stance, but in hindsight the whole thing is ridiculous and makes no sense. Alfred had no reason to believe Vicki was trustworthy enough to be allowed into Bruce's life like this on such a short acquaintanceship. I mean he knew her even less than Bruce did.

Alfred above everyone else understands the importance to Bruce of keeping his life as Batman a secret and only letting those in whom he chooses to allow in, even if they have figured it out or not. The fact that they actually mocked it in Returns is proof of it. It's like they were admitting to their blunder by poking fun at it.

Vicki was a stranger to Gotham whom Bruce shared one date with. Suddenly she was a paragon of virtue that Bruce should spill all his secrets to?

I'll tell you this, if they ever have Alfred bring someone who is a stranger to Gotham City, whom Bruce has only had ONE date with, to the Batcave without Bruce's consent, in the comics, there will be one hell of a backlash.

Then who came up with the whole "pale moonlight" speech? It was essential in Bruce's awereness that Joker killed his parents...

Probably Hamm after he was told the direction the script was going.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

well either way I'm thankful for the "pale moonlite" line, it's one of the best in the film.

[LuisTX85]

well either way I'm thankful for the "pale moonlite" line, it's one of the best in the film.

Agreed!

[Ponyboy]

Michael Douglas played Batman! :funny: :D

Seriously I like the name Keaton a lot it suits him.

Yep! He looks like a "Keaton" for sure

[returntovoid]

Alfred spent the movie trying to talk some sense into Bruce's head. Tried once and again to stop him from hurting Vicky's emotions and even tried to show that a normal relationship could be healthy and even healing for him. In the end the old man was forced to do what was right because Bruce wouldn't do it.

I can see Alfred doing that and not giving one single damn if that meant his last day at Wayne Manor.

I agree.

I think it's also possible that Alfred was already in the cave and she suddenly somehow figured out how to enter.

[Ponyboy]

I think it's more probable that she went over the manor, admitted to Alfred that she knew who Bruce was, and then Alfred subsequently led her down to the cave.

[El Payaso]

I used to agree with Payaso's stance, but in hindsight the whole thing is ridiculous and makes no sense. Alfred had no reason to believe Vicki was trustworthy enough to be allowed into Bruce's life like this on such a short acquaintanceship. I mean he knew her even less than Bruce did.

Alfred above everyone else understands the importance to Bruce of keeping his life as Batman a secret and only letting those in whom he chooses to allow in, even if they have figured it out or not. The fact that they actually mocked it in Returns is proof of it. It's like they were admitting to their blunder by poking fun at it.

Vicki was a stranger to Gotham whom Bruce shared one date with. Suddenly she was a paragon of virtue that Bruce should spill all his secrets to?

I'll tell you this, if they ever have Alfred bring someone who is a stranger to Gotham City, whom Bruce has only had ONE date with, to the Batcave without Bruce's consent, in the comics, there will be one hell of a backlash.

Let's just say that it was Bruce hismself who agreed to go personally and confess her his secret identity.

Many stories have told us that some serious changes and relationships can occur during one day. Even one night. Terminator, for example. Sarah Connors and the soldier know each other for less than a day and he becomes the love of her life.

Alfred spent that dinner talking to them both. He could see how he changed when she was there. Then he tells him how everything was different when she's around. At that point it was not a simple stranger. Then Alfred suggests: "Miss Vale called again. Dare I suggest that your present course of action might simply strengthen her resolve. She is quite tenacious," meaning that she's going to find the truth anyways, "And if I may say so, quite special. Perhaps you could try telling her the truth."

That was his plan all the time. Alfred saw in Vicky Bruce's redemption and a possibility to have a normal life. After all, as much as Alfred helped Bruce he was not much happy with the Batman thing: "I have no wish to fill my few remaining years grieving for the loss of old friends. Or their sons." He obviously wanted Bruce to get over Batman. And somehow he thought Vicky was the one for him. And Bruce thought so himself.

Should the movie have emphasized and developed that a lot more? Sure thing. But that was the reason behind it and it's coherent. To label this as a "one night stand with a complete stranger" is missing what was happening.

[The Joker]

Let's just say that it was Bruce hismself who agreed to go personally and confess her his secret identity.

Many stories have told us that some serious changes and relationships can occur during one day. Even one night. Terminator, for example. Sarah Connors and the soldier know each other for less than a day and he becomes the love of her life.

That was different because Kyle Reese told Sarah he has been in love with her for years. He's been keeping a photo of her and everything. It wasn't a case of literally just meeting her and falling for her there and then. Not to mention it wasn't just a chance meeting of these two people like Bruce and Vicki. Kyle was sent from the future by Sarah's own son to protect her.

Completely different scenario to Bruce and Vicki and a much more intimate connection, too. Being in a constant life and death situation together like they were brings people together.

Alfred spent that dinner talking to them both. He could see how he changed when she was there. Then he tells him how everything was different when she's around. At that point it was not a simple stranger. Then Alfred suggests: "Miss Vale called again. Dare I suggest that your present course of action might simply strengthen her resolve. She is quite tenacious," meaning that she's going to find the truth anyways, "And if I may say so, quite special. Perhaps you could try telling her the truth."

That was his plan all the time. Alfred saw in Vicky Bruce's redemption and a possibility to have a normal life. After all, as much as Alfred helped Bruce he was not much happy with the Batman thing: "I have no wish to fill my few remaining years grieving for the loss of old friends. Or their sons." He obviously wanted Bruce to get over Batman. And somehow he thought Vicky was the one for him. And Bruce thought so himself.

Here's exactly what happened: Alfred spent a couple of hours regaling Vicki with childhood stories of Bruce. Yeah, obviously the mood was different and Bruce was different. That's nice and all. But just because "a certain weight lifts" on her ONE visit to Wayne Manor and Bruce is not as isolated as he usually is, that means he should tell her everything? One great first date doesn't mean you're supposed to spill your soul to this person you've barely known a wet weekend. Especially when you're talking about the kind of secrets Bruce has.

Basically all your Alfred quotes have just summed up that it was Alfred doing all the pushing when he had no justifiable reason to be pushing Bruce like that. Where was the danger in going on a few more dates with her? Getting to know her better? Waiting to see if she really is the one before telling her all his secrets? Was Bruce dying or something? What was Alfred's big rush to push Bruce to tell her everything?

He didn't even have to tell her he was Batman in order to smooth things out with her when she found out he lied about leaving town (though Bruce was pretty damn stupid to go to a press gathering in broad daylight where Vicki could easily have spotted him). He could have just told her about his parents' anniversary and how painful it is for him. Anyone with an ounce of compassion could understand that.

Furthermore, regardless if Vicki said she knew Bruce was Batman or not, Alfred had no right to just take her to the cave like that without Bruce's permission. Alfred should have feigned ignorance as to what she was talking about until he consulted Bruce and not just sprung her on him like that.

Should the movie have emphasized and developed that a lot more? Sure thing.

Ok good, you do agree with that then.

But that was the reason behind it and it's coherent. To label this as a "one night stand with a complete stranger" is missing what was happening.

I see exactly what's happening, my friend. Alfred's good intentions are recognized, but you know what they say the road to hell is paved with ;) Essentially that's what Bruce's date with Vicki was. She was a stranger. They had just met. She barely knew a thing about him. She even had to ask him what he did for a living. She didn't know about his parents. All she heard was a few funny childhood tales from Alfred. In fact when you look at their date you get the impression that anything she did learn about Bruce she learned from Alfred and not him lol.

Alfred's lines that you quoted were just a weak attempt to dress up a relationship that was non existent in the first place. Dinner and sex doesn't equal a stable relationship. Yes, we get Alfred wants Bruce to be happy and doesn't want to see him die alone.

But that doesn't condone what he did given the circumstances. Just because Vicki heard a few childhood stories and got in the sack with Bruce on their first date doesn't automatically mean she's the one or even to be trusted with his secrets for the simple fact he still barely knows her. Alfred knows her even less. Bruce never even once says he loves her in the whole movie. I think at most he says "You're a real nice girl and I like you a lot". It's Vicki who's the only one who says the L word. Not Bruce. He never says it back to her.

I say again that even the writers recognized this blunder. It's why I always get a chuckle out of that line in Returns. It was entirely justified. Alfred had no business bringing Vicki to the cave like that. That's why we've never seen Alfred over step his boundaries like that in the comics either. If anyone gets brought to the Batcave it's Bruce's decision.

EDIT: Even BURTON thinks the whole bringing Vicki to the Cave was a mistake:

http://books.google.ie/books?id=PXWbtU-85RYC&pg=PA77&dq=tim+burton+vicki+batcave&hl=en&ei=mVMTTu3_LoHChAehubDoDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

He said it was done on impulse and it was a mistake and everyone hated it. His mentality at the time was "It's comic book material so who cares?". There you go. That was the thought process behind this scene.

Anyway, I don't wish to derail the thread further on this. I think I've made my point and I don't want to spoil the thread by discussing the movie's flaws. I'll leave it at that :)

Here's a nice gif to get things moving along again on a more positive note:


http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/Jokerfan1980/punchjokerglasses.gif

[returntovoid]

I like both 89 and BR equally, they're two really different and separate interpretations of the Batman world and characters. Both are dark sadisitic fun, but obviously BR is a much deeper dark view of Gotham.

BR is definitely darker and deeper.

I like to watch both films back-to-back, I feel that both are one film broken into 2 and the transition of the main character is very interesting.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/Jokerfan1980/punchjokerglasses.gif

"You wouldn't hit a guy with glasses... would you???"

[returntovoid]

Should the movie have emphasized and developed that a lot more? Sure thing.

His relationship with Vicki had everything going but lacked the mutual understanding that he had with Selina in Returns.

Leaving it undeveloped worked, I think.

He can't fully connect with a normal woman because he has the relationship in his facade as Bruce Wayne and lack of understanding for who he really is.

He fully connects with a woman who is abnormal and crazy like him but because of circumstances, they end up as enemies of his.

[GothamAlleys]

I'm sorry, man, but one random obscure panel of Joker doing some brief little tap dance on the spot does not equate to two over blown scenes of dancing all over the place to Prince music.

There are 3 panels shown from 3 different stories as an example there, the only bulletpoint showing 3 instead of one, yet for some people its still not enough. And I wouldnt call them obscure since 2 of those stories were written by Denny O'Neil who basically created the modern age Joker and appeared in Joker's own comic book. Joker danced and sang during his crimes and danced and sang along to radio music. Fact. Its even in one of the examples, "Aint No Business like showbusiness" was a radio hit

The only reason Prince was in this movie was for marketing reasons. Read it for yourself from Burton and how much he loathed putting this music in the movie: http://books.google.ie/books?id=PXWbtU-85RYC&pg=PA78&dq=tim+burton+prince+music&cd=3#v=onepage&q=tim%20burton%20prince%20music&f=false

I read it of course and it still doesnt change the fact that it fits Joker's insanity. To destroy art pieces in a gallery loaded with gased bodies while dancing happily to pop music is just pure Joker. I dont care if Burton likes the music or not, it mirrored the O'Neil Joker and fit very well with the insanity of Joker and the way he has clownish fun comitting crimes

I absolutely agree with Hamm that Alfred had no business just letting Vicki into the cave without Bruce's consent. Bruce barely knew her.

I never understood why it was in any way a problem. Bruce was about to tell her that hes Batman anyway, just got interrupted by Joker ringing the bell. So whats the big deal in Alfred letting her in so she can talk to Bruce? He surely knew that he wanted to tell her who he is and that he went to her apartment to do it

[Mister Meddle]

From Cameron's Gotham Alley blog:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JrMAg7gZ5FQ/TNOyfHZnTOI/AAAAAAAAAbA/FIGda565Oxc/s1600/henchmen_01.jpg

"Having clownish fun while doing his evil deeds, like dancing and singing with his goons"

[Ponyboy]

I never understood why it was in any way a problem. Bruce was about to tell her that hes Batman anyway, just got interrupted by Joker ringing the bell. So whats the big deal in Alfred letting her in so she can talk to Bruce? He surely knew that he wanted to tell her who he is and that he went to her apartment to do it

I think it still works in the film. Vicki is a reporter, she's smart. It's obvious that she figures out that Bruce is Batman before that scene. I've always thought she went straight to the manor and probably confronted Alfred with the knowledge that she knew... which is why he led her down there. It's not like Alfred called Vicki up and dropped that bomb on her.

[Mister Meddle]

I think it still works in the film. Vicki is a reporter, she's smart. It's obvious that she figures out that Bruce is Batman before that scene. I've always thought she went straight to the manor and probably confronted Alfred with the knowledge that she knew... which is why he led her down there. It's not like Alfred called Vicki up and dropped that bomb on her.

That's interesting.

Just the way Bruce handled himself when the Joker stopped by at Vicki's apartment. Bruce survives the gunfire due to protection, the same as Batman did in the alley. And we knew that Bruce had a big secret that he had to tell her. Remember when Knox and Vicki were reading the paper? Knox said something "like what do you suppose something like this could do to a boy?". All of the signs were there.

[The Joker]

From Cameron's Gotham Alley blog:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JrMAg7gZ5FQ/TNOyfHZnTOI/AAAAAAAAAbA/FIGda565Oxc/s1600/henchmen_01.jpg

"Having clownish fun while doing his evil deeds, like dancing and singing with his goons"

One panel of him doing a little jig on the spot while singing a song about being crazy does not equate to him dancing around a museum with pop music blaring from a stereo. You ever see him do that in any of his crimes before or after Batman '89?

The only reason the Prince music was in this movie is because WB shoe horned it in for marketing reasons. Burton never wanted it in there and said it was painful to put in.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Meddle that line you quoted from Knox always did it for me, when he says it Vicki gets right up and leaves, like her theory and realization just hit her like a brick. She saw Bruce in that alley, she knew he wanted to confess something to her and like previously said she's a photo journalist she has to be fully educated enough to take all of those clues and put the pieces together herself.

Overall I always felt at that point she knew that Bruce was Batman but that's just my theory.

[The Joker]

There are 3 panels shown from 3 different stories as an example there, the only bulletpoint showing 3 instead of one, yet for some people its still not enough. And I wouldnt call them obscure since 2 of those stories were written by Denny O'Neil who basically created the modern age Joker and appeared in Joker's own comic book. Joker danced and sang during his crimes and danced and sang along to radio music. Fact. Its even in one of the examples, "Aint No Business like showbusiness" was a radio hit

Is it any wonder why it's not enough for some people? They are three brief panels from 3 different stories of Joker doing one brief little jig on the spot. Meaning he spent all of 5 seconds doing it if it's confined to ONE panel. Have you seen several panels of him going around dancing to pop music (or any music) while pulling off a crime like in Batman '89? Because if you have then put those in your blog because they are more fitting.

I've seen Penguin, Riddler, Mad Hatter etc do a little happy dance on the spot in one panel. Should we expect them to break out a stereo and dance around the place when they're out pulling crimes?

I read it of course and it still doesnt change the fact that it fits Joker's insanity.

That's not a fact. If it was so factual then why has it not been done in any subsequent stories? If Joker sticking on a stereo and playing pop music is so fitting to his insanity as you claim then why has no writer in the subsequent 20+ years since Batman 1989 done it? We know Batman '89 had some influence on the comics so why did they never try that one?

You really think anyone associates the Joker with pop music? I barely even associate him with dancing. A few brief random happy dances I've seen him do, like in those brief panels in your blog. That's it.

The real fact is the only reason Prince was in that movie was because WB wanted it so they had to conjure up some scenarios in the movie to use it. If WB had not insisted on it you can bet Burton would have executed those scenes entirely differently because Prince music was the last thing he wanted in this movie.

I never understood why it was in any way a problem. Bruce was about to tell her that hes Batman anyway, just got interrupted by Joker ringing the bell. So whats the big deal in Alfred letting her in so she can talk to Bruce? He surely knew that he wanted to tell her who he is and that he went to her apartment to do it

Right, Bruce wanted to do it on his terms and his conditions (after a severe amount of goading from Alfred). Why did Alfred need to bring her to the Batcave when Bruce had not told her yet? There was no urgent rush. He wasn't going anywhere and neither was she. As I was discussing with El Payaso on the previous page, Alfred's constant pushing of bruce to spill his screts to a woman he hardly knows just didn't ring true and came off as completely unbelievable and out of character for Alfred.

Alfred didn't think it was a good idea for Bruce to tell Shondra Kinsolving his secret and Bruce knew her a lot longer than Vicki and trusted her more, too:


http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/Mybattyscans/Alfred1.jpg
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/Mybattyscans/Alfred2.jpg



If Bruce tells someone his secrets, or brings them to the Cave, that's ultimately Bruce's decision and Alfred recognizes that:


http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/Mybattyscans/Alfred3.jpg



He doesn't push Bruce into it. Especially with someone Bruce barely knows.

Regardless of whether she claimed she knew or not, it was not Alfred's place to bring her to the Batcave without Bruce's consent. Alfred should have feigned ignorance until he consulted Bruce about it and Bruce could have arranged to talk to her about it on his own terms.

Again, have you ever seen Alfred bring anyone to the cave without Bruce's permission? No. Anyone that gets to set foot into the cave does so by Batman's decision and Batman's terms. Alfred would never over step his boundaries like that and take a virtual stranger Bruce barely knows a wet weekend into his most private place without his consent.

Hamm is right, that would have been Alfred's last day at Wayne Manor and they were totally justified to mock it in Returns.

Oh and Burton also doesn't like that scene either and thinks it was a mistake. He said it was done on impulse with the mentality that "It's just comic book material so who cares". Speaks volumes about the quality of this scene. Is it any wonder why it got such a backlash?

[Ponyboy]

Remember when Knox and Vicki were reading the paper? Knox said something "like what do you suppose something like this could do to a boy?". All of the signs were there.

Exactly. She knew who he was. At least that's how I always saw it... not that Alfred let her in out of the blue.

[The Joker]

So if Jim Gordon, someone Batman has known and worked closely with for years, came to the door and told Alfred he knew Bruce was Batman, do you think Alfred would just lead him on down to the Batcave and spring him on Bruce out of the blue, or do you think he would feign ignorance to Gordon and then consult Bruce about it?

[GothamAlleys]

Its a very different situation. Bruce decided to tell Vicky that hes Batman. He would and he was just about to when Joker came in and sidetracked his thoughts with his quote. Alfred definitely knew that Bruce wanted to reveal or already revealed his identity to her

[Ponyboy]

So if Jim Gordon, someone Batman has known and worked closely with for years, came to the door and told Alfred he knew Bruce was Batman, do you think Alfred would just lead him on down to the Batcave and spring him on Bruce out of the blue, or do you think he would feign ignorance to Gordon and then consult Bruce about it?

What has that got to do with Vicki coming into the Batcave in the film? Are you talking about Jim Gordon in the movies? The comics? I don't know what would happen because it hasn't happened. We're talking about something that already exists (the movie) and our interpretation about why it happened the way it did.

[The Joker]

Its a very different situation. Bruce decided to tell Vicky that hes Batman. He would and he was just about to when Joker came in and sidetracked his thoughts with his quote.

Bruce decided to tell her himself after Alfred goaded him into it. Not Bruce decided that Alfred could bring her to the Cave without his permission when he had not told her yet. Two entirely different scenarios.

Bruce had plenty more opportunities to tell her again. He wasn't going anywhere and neither was she.

Alfred definitely knew that Bruce wanted to reveal or already revealed his identity to her

The former yes, but not the latter. If Bruce had told her he would have told Alfred what her reaction was to his big secret don't you think?

What has that got to do with Vicki coming into the Batcave in the film? Are you talking about Jim Gordon in the movies? The comics?

The comics, of course. There is no Batman/Gordon relationship in the Burton movies.

I don't know what would happen because it hasn't happened. We're talking about something that already exists (the movie) and our interpretation about why it happened the way it did.

I'm drawing an analogy. Do you see Alfred bringing a man he knows Bruce cares about and trusts and has known for years down the to Cave just because he said he knew he was Batman? Even if Bruce said he did plan on telling Gordon himself but had not yet?

You seemingly condone it for a stranger he hardly knows a few days. So do you really see Alfred doing it for Gordon? I don't. I don't see him doing it for anyone no matter how well Bruce knows them. See the scans above that I posted for further clarification as to why.

He leaves Bruce to share his life and his secrets by his own decisions. Bruce telling anyone anything personal about himself or bringing them to the cave is something Alfred leaves Bruce to do by himself in his own good time.

[Ponyboy]

If you're talking about Jim Gordon in the comics and Vicki Vale in the Burton movies, then you can't really make an appropriate analogy there I don't think... Because the same Alfred in those movies isn't the same Alfred in the comics. Same goes for Bruce Wayne/Batman. I think it worked for the film, that's all I was saying. You accept more in a 2 hour film rather than you would in the world of comics.

I think it's possible to make Batman reveal himself to Gordon and make it work... in the movies. In the comics? I don't know. Might damage the dynamic.

[The Joker]

If you're talking about Jim Gordon in the comics and Vicki Vale in the Burton movies, then you can't really make an appropriate analogy there I don't think... Because the same Alfred in those movies isn't the same Alfred in the comics.

Definitely agree with that given this situation we're discussing.

I think it worked for the film, that's all I was saying.

That's fine. Not disputing your preferences.

I think it's possible to make Batman reveal himself to Gordon and make it work... in the movies. In the comics? I don't know. Might damage the dynamic.

I think they could make Batman reveal his identity to Gordon in any medium work if it's Batman's decision to do so and he does it on his own terms. He tried to tell Gordon once during the No Man's Land storyline. He took his mask off and everything. But Gordon refused to look because he didn't want to know.

[UltimateJustin]

The movie is oozing with charm and the Prince songs are a part of it. They could have gone without Prince, but when you have the choice of Prince, you usually take it.

[Ponyboy]

It worked in Miller's Dark Knight Returns. Obviously Gordon knew Bruce was Batman. What's interesting is that it was never revealed when he found out. I'm presuming he revealed himself after he "retired."

[GothamAlleys]

Is it any wonder why it's not enough for some people? They are three brief panels from 3 different stories of Joker doing one brief little jig on the spot. Meaning he spent all of 5 seconds doing it if it's confined to ONE panel. Have you seen several panels of him going around dancing to pop music (or any music) while pulling off a crime like in Batman '89? Because if you have then put those in your blog because they are more fitting.

I truly believe what Im witnessing here is a denial. Fact is Joker did dance to music while comitting crimes. First it was "its just one panel" and I said its not. I just gave 3 examples out of many. Then you said"oh its from obscure stories". I said they were not because the examples given (and again, theyre just FEW examples out of many, but I didnt write the issues down cause I was sure a frigging 3 examples wouldve been more than enough) were written by Oneil and Moore. Then it was "oh, he was just singing and hopping" and I said he wasnt, he was singing and dancing while killing, making someone crazy, stealing art/assaulting etc. In one of the examples given hes specifically singing and dancing to Sinatra's radio hit. And now its "oh, he didnt dance long enough"?? I mean cmon. I really cant debate anything like this. He danced to music, he sang. So Im finished with this childish stubbornness here

I've seen Penguin, Riddler, Mad Hatter etc do a little happy dance on the spot in one panel. Should we expect them to break out a stereo and dance around the place when they're out pulling crimes?

No because theyre not Joker. A behavior like this would be fitting for Joker who has clownish fun while doing crimes for no apparent reason. A guy dancing to pop music skipping over dead bodies that he just killed with gas, ripping apart art pieces is pure insanity and pure Joker



That's not a fact. If it was so factual then why has it not been done in any subsequent stories? If Joker sticking on a stereo and playing pop music is so fitting to his insanity as you claim then why has no writer in the subsequent 20+ years since Batman 1989 done it? We know Batman '89 had some influence on the comics so why did they never try that one?

Again, do some reading/research first....
And as I said, Im done with this childish back and forth

You really think anyone associates the Joker with pop music? I barely even associate him with dancing. A few brief random happy dances I've seen him do, like in those brief panels in your blog. That's it.

"Again, do some reading/research first...."

The real fact is the only reason Prince was in that movie was because WB wanted it so they had to conjure up some scenarios in the movie to use it. If WB had not insisted on it you can bet Burton would have executed those scenes entirely differently because Prince music was the last thing he wanted in this movie.


And thats probably the turth, however Joker doing what he did and dancing to happy pop music among dead bodies would probably be still in the movie since its pure Joker


Right, Bruce wanted to do it on his terms and his conditions (after a severe amount of goading from Alfred). Why did Alfred need to bring her to the Batcave when Bruce had not told her yet?

He would if not Joker. And she was in the batcave anyway, and Alfred surely knew Bruce wanted to tell her but was interrupted

There was no urgent rush. He wasn't going anywhere and neither was she. As I was discussing with El Payaso on the previous page, Alfred's constant pushing of bruce to spill his screts to a woman he hardly knows just didn't ring true and came off as completely unbelievable and out of character for Alfred.

Alfred hinted that he isnt happy with what Bruce is doing and repeated few times that he wants Bruce to forget about the pain and lead a normal life. "If not now, then when?" He sees Bruce consumed with pain and anger day after day and tries as much as he can with the remaining time he had to push Bruce into normal life that he deserves

Alfred didn't think it was a good idea for Bruce to tell Shondra Kinsolving his secret and Bruce knew her a lot longer than Vicki and trusted her more, too:

In this situation Alfred knows that Bruce isnt clear minded and is depressed and after a huge shock


If Bruce tells someone his secrets, or brings them to the Cave, that's ultimately Bruce's decision and Alfred recognizes that:

And it was Bruce's decision to tell Vicky that hes Batman. A second later and Bruce would say "Im Batman" to Vicky. So its not without consent. He wasnt happy because the timing was wrong. He was immersed in thoughts about his parents and just realized who killed them, but he already took Vicky to the cave in the mask and wanted to tell her that hes Batman, so I see no problem here at all

Bruce had plenty more opportunities to tell her again. He wasn't going anywhere and neither was she

And yet he decided to tell her now, the day when few hours later she appeared in the batcave. Why not later? Cause its a movie, not a TV series. Story has to be confined within certain time. Plus he already decided to tell her.

Oh and Burton also doesn't like that scene either and thinks it was a mistake. He said it was done on impulse with the mentality that "It's just comic book material so who cares". Speaks volumes about the quality of this scene. Is it any wonder why it got such a backlash?

Burton is a person with very small self confidence and he takes criticism very seriously and very personally instead of standing his ground and being confident in his choices. As for fans, they complained at the time that Batman is all black too

[The Joker]

I truly believe what Im witnessing here is a denial. Fact is Joker did dance to music while comitting crimes.

No, he didn't. He did a brief little dance on the spot that last several seconds. How do you equate that to long over blown scenes of dancing around all over the place to music to pop music blasting from a stereo?

You can't seriously tell me that's what you see when you look at those panels. It's like saying Joker fired his gun once into the air when he pulls off a crime just to scare people in the comics. But in Batman '89 he spent several minutes walking around repeatedly firing the gun in the air when pulling off his crimes.

You see the obvious difference.

If a Batman villain likes to dance to music while pulling off a crime, it is obvious. Case in point, one of the latest additions to Batman's rogues gallery, Professor Pyg. He doesn't just to a little brief jig on the spot in one panel:


http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/Mybattyscans/IMG-2.jpg
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/Mybattyscans/IMG_0001.jpg


That's a psycho who likes to dance around to music. He doesn't have to be a clownish prankster villain to do it either. I've yet to see the Joker to do a dance equivalent to this.

First it was "its just one panel" and I said its not. I just gave 3 examples out of many. Then you said"oh its from obscure stories". I said they were not because the examples given (and again, theyre just FEW examples out of many, but I didnt write the issues down cause I was sure a frigging 3 examples wouldve been more than enough) were written by Oneil and Moore. Then it was "oh, he was just singing and hopping" and I said he wasnt, he was singing and dancing while killing, making someone crazy, stealing art/assaulting etc. In one of the examples given hes specifically singing and dancing to Sinatra's radio hit. And now its "oh, he didnt dance long enough"?? I mean cmon. I really cant debate anything like this. He danced to music, he sang.

And again, you gave three BRIEF panels of something that lasted ONE panel. As in it was the briefest of moments. Can you explain to me that if it's such a common thing for the Joker to do then why on god's green earth has no version of the Joker outside of this movie done it if it's as common and as affiliated with the character as you claim? Cesar, Mark Hamill's Joker, Ledger's Joker and most importantly not one Joker story in the subsequent 20 years since the movie (or before it either).

I'll tell you why: Because it's not a Joker trait. The only reason it was done was so the Prince songs could have a place in the movie.

So Im finished with this childish stubbornness here

Now now, sticks and stones. No need to get unpleasant. I thought we were friends.

No because theyre not Joker. A behavior like this would be fitting for Joker who has clownish fun while doing crimes for no apparent reason.

The DC writing staff disagree with you. So do I. Doing a little giddy dance on the spot is one thing. Dancing all over the place to pop music, something entirely different.

But again we know why it was done in the first place: $$$$$$$$$

Again, do some reading/research first....

I have. I've produced the proof that that there's no version of the Joker who plays pop music and dances around while pulling off his crimes like in B'89. I've shown you scans of what a Batman villain who does like to dance to music while being evil is like. I've proven the only reason Prince was even used was because WB wanted it for Marketing purposes and Burton loathed putting it in at all.

I don't know what more you need.

And thats probably the turth, however Joker doing what he did and dancing to happy pop music among dead bodies would probably be still in the movie since its pure Joker

Not probably, it is the truth, man. Since Joker is not known for playing happy pop music and dancing all over the place it wouldn't have been used.

I mean seriously think about this logically for minute: If the idea of pop music, even Prince's whom Burton is a big fan of, actually PAINED him to put into the movie (his words) do you seriously believe some other kind of happy pop music would have been in there by Burton's own choice?

He would if not Joker. And she was in the batcave anyway, and Alfred surely knew Bruce wanted to tell her but was interrupted

He would if not for the Joker? And? He still had not told her yet, had he? It was Bruce's place to tell her and invite her into his Batcave.

Whether she had been there before or not is irrelevant. She was brought there before by Batman. Not Alfred. It was Batman's place again to bring her back if he so wished. Not Alfred's.

Alfred hinted that he isnt happy with what Bruce is doing and repeated few times that he wants Bruce to forget about the pain and lead a normal life. "If not now, then when?" He sees Bruce consumed with pain and anger day after day and tries as much as he can with the remaining time he had to push Bruce into normal life that he deserves

In the space of less than a week? Take a look at the scans I posted above. It is completely unlike Alfred to try and railroad Bruce into spilling his secrets to ANYONE whether he knows them really well or not.

Unless Alfred was at death's door, or Bruce was, there was no urgency to push Bruce into telling Vicki everything, especially since they had only shared ONE date. Alfred knew her even less than Bruce did.

There was nothing to suggest she was the one or could be unequivocally trusted on such a short acquaintanceship.

Here's exactly what happened: Alfred spent a couple of hours regaling Vicki with childhood stories of Bruce. Yeah, obviously the mood was different and Bruce was different. That's nice and all. But just because "a certain weight lifts" on her ONE visit to Wayne Manor and Bruce is not as isolated as he usually is, that means he should tell her everything? One great first date doesn't mean you're supposed to spill your soul to this person you've barely known a wet weekend. Especially when you're talking about the kind of secrets Bruce has.

It was Alfred doing all the pushing when he had no justifiable reason to be pushing Bruce like that. Where was the danger in going on a few more dates with her? Getting to know her better? Waiting to see if she really is the one before telling her all his secrets?

He didn't even have to tell her he was Batman in order to smooth things out with her when she found out he lied about leaving town (though Bruce was pretty damn stupid to go to a press gathering in broad daylight where Vicki could easily have spotted him). He could have just told her about his parents' anniversary and how painful it is for him. Anyone with an ounce of compassion could understand that.

Furthermore, regardless if Vicki said she knew Bruce was Batman or not, Alfred had no right to just take her to the cave like that without Bruce's permission. Alfred should have feigned ignorance as to what she was talking about until he consulted Bruce and not just sprung her on him like that.

In this situation Alfred knows that Bruce isnt clear minded and is depressed and after a huge shock

You mean like him being depressed and lost in pain like the way you're trying to paint Bruce in B'89? You mean like Alfred telling him to share his darkest secrets with a woman he's only had one date with and barely knows a wet weekend as opposed to telling a physician they know and trust, and even Tim Drake knows and trusts, whom they have even entrusted to help him heal his broken back?

:cwink:

And it was Bruce's decision to tell Vicky that hes Batman.

After much urging from Alfred.

Even then when he had made the conscious decision to do it, it was then on his terms to do it. It's his secret he's telling, not Alfred's. It's his life he's sharing with Vicki, not Alfred's. Particularly since this is the first person Bruce has ever shared his secrets with it made it even more important that he do it on his own steam.

A second later and Bruce would say "Im Batman" to Vicky. So its not without consent. He wasnt happy because the timing was wrong. He was immersed in thoughts about his parents and just realized who killed them, but he already took Vicky to the cave in the mask and wanted to tell her that hes Batman, so I see no problem here at all

Covered this already. If you can't see the difference between telling someone your most personal secrets and taking them to your most private sanctuary as opposed to having someone else do it for you without your consent, then the point is lost on you, my friend.

If you were planning to propose to your girlfriend, but someone else told her you were going to, would you see that as justifiable? I mean by your logic you were going to ask her anyway, what would be the harm in her knowing in advance?

Because it's a private thing that only you should ask. Same as how Bruce telling Vicki and bringing her to his cave is a personal thing that only he should do.

And yet he decided to tell her now, the day when few hours later she appeared in the batcave. Why not later? Cause its a movie, not a TV series. Story has to be confined within certain time.

Then the story should have been written better to allow for a scenario for Bruce to tell her and bring her to the cave himself.

But it's no secret the script was a mess and went through several re-writes with the writers strike and all.

Once greenlit, the film would move rapidly into production, partially to avoid the upcoming writer's strike. The late Warren Skaaren would later rewrite much of the third act. Some of these changes, such as the Joker being made the killer of Bruce's parents, didn't sit well with Hamm.

http://imaginarycinema.com/batman.html

Burton is a person with very small self confidence and he takes criticism very seriously and very personally instead of standing his ground and being confident in his choices.

Or he was just being honest and saying exactly what was going on. If he wanted to be humble he could have simply said " I thought it was a good idea but in hindsight it turned out to be a poor decision".

But now, he totally rips the decision to shreds, even admitting his mentality behind it was "It's comic book material so who cares?".

I find that brutal honesty very refreshing. I like when a director can admit they goofed.

As for fans, they complained at the time that Batman is all black too

Yeah and fans also wrote thousands of protest letters to WB when Michael Keaton was cast, too. But like with the suit, everyone shut up and loved it when they saw the movie.

Not the case with Vicki being brought to the cave by Alfred.

OT: I'm not trying to tear this movie down. Because as you know I'm a big fan. But these flaws just annoy me in it. They didn't get a backlash for no reason.

[GothamAlleys]

Now now, sticks and stones. No need to get unpleasant. I thought we were friends.

Oh its THIS Joker. I thought its some new guy. Well, u usually do your research (albeit you often rely more on the most recent material), I thought its some new guy since you changed your avatar. Well, just to summarize, brief or not brief, Joker did danced multiple times and did dance and even sang along to radio music, thats why I will never give credit to the claims that Joker wouldnt do it. I honestly didnt write down all the issues when he did it, but he did it way more than in the 3 examples I gave.

And to summarize the cave thing, since Bruce wanted to tell Vicky hes Batmanh anyway and since he already got her there, I see no problem at all with her being there when hes unmasked

[returntovoid]

Even if The Joker danced to music very few times in the comics, it's enough.

In the same way, The Joker used a knife very few times in his first few comic book appearances as he does in TDK.

[The Joker]

Oh its THIS Joker. I thought its some new guy. Well, u usually do your research (albeit you often rely more on the most recent material), I thought its some new guy since you changed your avatar. Well, just to summarize, brief or not brief, Joker did danced multiple times and did dance and even sang along to radio music, thats why I will never give credit to the claims that Joker wouldnt do it. I honestly didnt write down all the issues when he did it, but he did it way more than in the 3 examples I gave.

And to summarize the cave thing, since Bruce wanted to tell Vicky hes Batmanh anyway and since he already got her there, I see no problem at all with her being there when hes unmasked

Oh I am so sorry, man, you didn't know it was me. I thought it was weird how unfamiliar and a bit stand offish you were being lol. Yeah I got a 'The' added to my name. It...completes....ME! :cwink:

Look I don't want to drag out this line of discussion any more than I have to. I kind of feel bad for focusing the last couple of pages on the critical aspects of the movie.

Plus I've pretty much said all I have to say on this. I'd just be repeating myself at this point. We'll just agree to disagree.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/Jokerfan1980/KeatonNicholson.jpg

[returntovoid]

Look I don't want to drag out this line of discussion any more than I have to. I kind of feel bad for focusing the last couple of pages on the critical aspects of the movie.

Exactly!

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Hope you got my PM returntovoid... wasn't sure it sent.

[returntovoid]

Hope you got my PM returntovoid... wasn't sure it sent.

I got it.

[The Joker]

jmCHTxnnsuk

Go to 0:46 on this video.

[Two-Face]

Nice litte tribute. :up:

[Chris Wallace]

I still enjoy this movie immensely. To me, it proves you don't necessarily have to have the chiseled physique of a superhero to pull off a great performance.

[ALP]

jmCHTxnnsuk

Go to 0:46 on this video.

Haha! My favorite are the Batman parodies from Tiny Toons with Plucky as Batman. I think they even did a spoof of Burton once.

[I'm Old Greg]

nZSBpFMWk-M

[ALP]

What is turbine powered?

[Ponyboy]

What is turbine powered?

It's a rotary style of engine that's usually run by gas or steam power. There are water turbines as well. Pretty cool actually.

[SHADOWBAT69]

nZSBpFMWk-M



Looks lke it handles pretty good too.

[ALP]

Cool, cool.

Nice batmobile but he should really replace that clear windshield with a dark one!

[howl]

still my favourite batman film and the reason i am a batfan :D

[imposserus]

nZSBpFMWk-M


this is why the tumble will never be my batmobile






i believe in waylon jones

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

That video is truly amazing, I just want that car.

[Marx]

Now there's a batmobile!

[RedSkull]

Just got through rewatching 89'. Great movie that still holds up. A few inconsistencies that I didn't like, such as how they had Joker killing batmans parents..that feels tacked on. Also dont like the batwing over the moon shot

[BatBat]

It was great when I was 12 . . . but even then I could see Burton didn't really care that much about Batman.

[EliteF50]

Michael Keaton interviewing himself...

DHdlPS2Lh04

That was great! :pal: I wish there was more. :(

[BrollySupersj]

You all remember the scene at Axis Chemicals where Batman glides down to Jack Napier? Anyone else absolutely love that scene? I do, it's one of my favorite moments in the entire movie. It's a shame the small musical section during that scene wasn't added to the OST.

[RedSkull]

You all remember the scene at Axis Chemicals where Batman glides down to Jack Napier? Anyone else absolutely love that scene? I do, it's one of my favorite moments in the entire movie. It's a shame the small musical section during that scene wasn't added to the OST.

it is, it's on the complete score recording released in 2009 through Lalaland records

[Chris Wallace]

Image from the deleted scene-Batman vs. Bob.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/ghostofjealousy/Spidey/1207998090.jpg

[BrollySupersj]

it is, it's on the complete score recording released in 2009 through Lalaland records


...........Show me...show me where!

[Chris Wallace]

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/ghostofjealousy/panther/snapshot20090613150806.png
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/ghostofjealousy/panther/53b091eb.png
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/ghostofjealousy/panther/bat_suit.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/ghostofjealousy/panther/Batman_1989_-_Trailer.png

[BrollySupersj]

The definitive Batsuit IMO. It's design is flawless.

[Chris Wallace]

I won't go so far as flawless but it's a damn sight better than any that have come since.

[BrollySupersj]

I won't go so far as flawless but it's a damn sight better than any that have come since.

It's black and has the yellow oval. You can't go wrong.

[RedSkull]

...........Show me...show me where!

http://www.lalalandrecords.com/Batman89.html

I believe the track you're referring to is either Shootout or Batman to the Rescue

[Chris Wallace]

It's black and has the yellow oval. You can't go wrong.

Sure about that?
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x270/servewithchips/forever.jpg

[BrollySupersj]

Sure about that?
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x270/servewithchips/forever.jpg

That suit wasn't so bad either. Take out the nipples and you got an adequate batsuit.

[Chris Wallace]

I preferred Kilmer's belt; it actually looked like it could hold something. Keaton's suit was overall very well done but the lack of mobility became increasingly more apparent as the movie went on.

[The Joker]

It was great when I was 12 . . . but even then I could see Burton didn't really care that much about Batman.

How do you mean? Do you mean Batman as a character or comic books in general?

[BatBat]

comics in general and some important elements of his character.

[BatBat]

Sure about that?
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x270/servewithchips/forever.jpg
I liked Kilmer's suit better as well. Keaton's first cowl stuck out too far from the sides of his face and it had so many burs on it. It wasn't as polished as the Returns and Forever cowls. Though I will say Keaton played the better Batman.

[El Payaso]

edit

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

How do you mean? Do you mean Batman as a character or comic books in general?

You know... I hate when people use the words care when it comes to directors and comic book characters.

Burton was intrigued by Batman and thought he could bring his own sensibilities to character. I truly think he fell in love with Batman... up to a point... but working within the commercial system it often got strained.

Burton respected his vision... just like Nolan, Miller and Dozier. It's as simple as that.

[GothamAlleys]

comics in general and some important elements of his character.

So what that he didnt care about comics before doing Batman? But the writer did and that was a great mix since it always creates greatness. Nolan wasnt a comic book fan ether and knew nothing about them, but the writer, Goyer, was a specialist in that area. That way there’s a great mix of approaches – a gifted director who isn’t familiar or restricted by the knowledge of the comic books and a writer who knows it all. Joel Schumacher was the only Batman director who had a prior experience with the comic books, reading Batman when growing up

As for not caring about some elements of the character, I dont see it. He did read all the Batman issues from before Robin was introduced, all the earliest Batman comics and nailed faithfully the portrayal of the original Batman from the Detective Comics early days, the portrayal that Burton's Batman was based on - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2011/01/batman-in-movies.html

[BrollySupersj]

comics in general and some important elements of his character.

Are you talking about the whole no-killing policy? Because back in the 30s when Batman first started. He killed thugs. Burton's vision of Batman borrowed elements from that.

[Anita18]

So yesterday was the first time I'd seen B89 in a really long time...and I hadn't realized that practically every building in Gotham has Gothic cathedral windows. Down to the news building and the art museum. For some reason that just made me :lmao: so hard.

[BATS N' HORNETS]

So what that he didnt care about comics before doing Batman? But the writer did and that was a great mix since it always creates greatness. Nolan wasnt a comic book fan ether and knew nothing about them, but the writer, Goyer, was a specialist in that area. That way there’s a great mix of approaches – a gifted director who isn’t familiar or restricted by the knowledge of the comic books and a writer who knows it all. Joel Schumacher was the only Batman director who had a prior experience with the comic books, reading Batman when growing up

As for not caring about some elements of the character, I dont see it. He did read all the Batman issues from before Robin was introduced, all the earliest Batman comics and nailed faithfully the portrayal of the original Batman from the Detective Comics early days, the portrayal that Burton's Batman was based on - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2011/01/batman-in-movies.html

Goyer is not the end all be all of comic book film writers. Sam Hamm was a comic book fan and knew what he was doing. While Goyer did read comics as a child, I'd hardly call him a specialist. He writes decent movies, but doesn't exactly translate comics so purely to film the way Hamm did with Batman or say Mank/Donner did with the first Superman or maybe the way Simon Wincer did with The Phantom.

Batman Begins was better than The Dark Knight, but still could have been done better as a year one film.

Still, Goyer's Blade kicks decent ass!

[RedSkull]

You know... I hate when people use the words care when it comes to directors and comic book characters.

Burton was intrigued by Batman and thought he could bring his own sensibilities to character. I truly think he fell in love with Batman... up to a point... but working within the commercial system it often got strained.

Burton respected his vision... just like Nolan, Miller and Dozier. It's as simple as that.

QFT. Notable directors wouldn't make a movie about a character if they didn't "CARE" about the character. Obviously they cared enough to put their own stylistic spin on it.

[Fudgie]

Goyer is not the end all be all of comic book film writers. Sam Hamm was a comic book fan and knew what he was doing. While Goyer did read comics as a child, I'd hardly call him a specialist. He writes decent movies, but doesn't exactly translate comics so purely to film the way Hamm did with Batman or say Mank/Donner did with the first Superman or maybe the way Simon Wincer did with The Phantom.

Batman Begins was better than The Dark Knight, but still could have been done better as a year one film.

Still, Goyer's Blade kicks decent ass!

No Goyer did a much better job than Hamm. The script in this movie isn't even all Hamm's. They did a bunch of rewrites without him during the writers strike. Hamm didn't want Joker being the killer of Batman's folks or Alfred bringing Vicki to the Batcave.

[GothamAlleys]

Are you talking about the whole no-killing policy? Because back in the 30s when Batman first started. He killed thugs. Burton's vision of Batman borrowed elements from that.


Its not just the 30s tho, despite the popular incorrect myth. The only time Batman wasnt killing was during Silver Age, and he was and still is occasionally killing someone, either to save his skin (live shields), accidentally or intentionally simply because a villain is too dangerous to be kept alive or did too much harm. I see Im using the blog as reference quite often lately, but thats what it is for - for mythbusting. Heres Batman killing continuously from time to time throughout his entire history - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2010/11/killer-batman.html


And if its really supposedly THIS aspect that Burton ignored, its just simply incorrect. By many accounts, from Hamm to the producers, Burton's Batman was based on Bob Kane's original portrayal, and that Batman killed whenever he felt like it and was very different than the Modern Age Batman, being based partially on Dracula, basically being a quiet but menacing spook. At least 2 kills in 89 movie are recreations of Batman's early kills (gunning down thugs from the plane, throwing a thug into the shaft using legs). Again, Burton's Batman is very faitful to the original pre-Robin Kane Batman that it was suppose to imitate.

Nolan's Batman is very faithful to the Modern Age Batman, which again, is a very different personality

Cops and soldiers kill and there will always be casualties in a war. Does not make cops evil or doomed souls. Try not to kill, but sometimes its necessary when fighting evil and lunatics and mass murderers. Its just reality. (Modern) Batman isnt a cartoon character like Captain Planet or Schumacher's Batman, its more serious and realistic. And Im glad Nolan showed that Batman DID kill wehn neccesary or when the villain is too dangerous to be kept alive or simply for revenge. Not saving means killing. If you allow somebody to die by omission of action its killing. If someone with deadly asthma attack needs their medicine and you wont pass it to them and just look at that person dying, thats killing. And thats what Batman did to Ghul.

So yesterday was the first time I'd seen B89 in a really long time...and I hadn't realized that practically every building in Gotham has Gothic cathedral windows. Down to the news building and the art museum. For some reason that just made me :lmao: so hard.

Those are not "cathedral windows":whatever:. I dont know how schooled people here are, but thats called Gothic architecture which is characterized by high arches and specific window decorations.

Definition: characterized by slender vertical piers and counterbalancing buttresses and by vaulting and pointed arches;The predominant architecture of Europe from the thirteenth to the sixteenth century. Its most characteristic feature is the pointed arch.


Really weird comment. Its like being surprised that Gothic architecture looks like Gothic architecture and has all of its elements. Gotham City of 89 movie was a a marriage of Gothic architecture and 1930's America

As a side note, the original pre-Robin Batman that Burton's movies are based on was based on the look of horror movies, hence shadows, full moon, often present mist and GOTHam city


Goyer is not the end all be all of comic book film writers. Sam Hamm was a comic book fan and knew what he was doing. While Goyer did read comics as a child, I'd hardly call him a specialist.

Looking at his work and the fact that he knew/read fairly obscure comic stories from which he adapted many things from tells me he either did a mind blowing research before writing or is simply a lifelong fan who was following Batman comics for years. Same with Hamm. They both included winks and situations from entire history of Batman, as oppose to Goldsman who with Forever focused only on 70s and in B&R took from 70s, silver age and animated series

[El Payaso]

No Goyer did a much better job than Hamm. The script in this movie isn't even all Hamm's.

Not in the dialogues department.

[GothamAlleys]

No Goyer did a much better job than Hamm. The script in this movie isn't even all Hamm's. They did a bunch of rewrites without him during the writers strike. Hamm didn't want Joker being the killer of Batman's folks or Alfred bringing Vicki to the Batcave.

Jesus, not that again. So Joker wasnt Wayne's killer. So What? Ras wasnt Batman's trainer and indirect killer of Waynes either. Scarecrow wasnt Arkham owner either. Chill wasnt a desperate thug either. Again, so WHAT? All those changes worked wonderfully for their stories and fit great with what the story needed.


The point remains that Hamm, Waters and Goyer knew entire history of Batman because of all the stuff they included from it. I mean to include Batman's Flass interrogation scene from an obscure 90s story is impressive, and theres many small scenes from regular monthly Batman series from 80s and 90s and even 30s in BB and TDK and same goes for Burton's movies (again, Schumacher's were mostly limited to one decade)

At the end it doesn matter who knows more about comic books, but it only matters if the product is fun and entertaining and good, not if its faithful. But there was a point brought up about the knowledge of Goyer and Hamm, so there it is

[El Payaso]

Jesus, not that again. So Joker wasnt Wayne's killer. So What? Ras wasnt Batman's trainer and indirect killer of Waynes either. Scarecrow wasnt Arkham owner either. Chill wasnt a desperate thug either. Again, so WHAT? All those changes worked wonderfully for their stories and fit great with what the story needed.


The point remains that Hamm, Waters and Goyer knew entire history of Batman because of all the stuff they included from it. I mean to include Batman's Flass interrogation scene from an obscure 90s story is impressive, and theres many small scenes from regular monthly Batman series from 80s and 90s and even 30s in BB and TDK and same goes for Burton's movies (again, Schumacher's were mostly limited to one decade)

At the end it doesn matter who knows more about comic books, but it only matters if the product is fun and entertaining and good, not if its faithful. But there was a point brought up about the knowledge of Goyer and Hamm, so there it is

:up:

[Travesty]

Not in the dialogues department.
"Nice coat" was the most poetic thing I have ever heard in my life. :oldrazz:

[Chris Wallace]

Begins had a better "I'm Batman" signature.

[El Payaso]

"Nice coat" was the most poetic thing I have ever heard in my life. :oldrazz:

Maybe on a rainy night.

Begins had a better "I'm Batman" signature.

No, but its good was ruined by the most poetic thing Travesty has ever heard in his life.

[BrollySupersj]

http://www.lalalandrecords.com/Batman89.html

I believe the track you're referring to is either Shootout or Batman to the Rescue

Yeah it's definitely shoot out. Shame the sample doesn't include the part I wanna hear..:cmad:

[Ponyboy]

Begins had a better "I'm Batman" signature.

You must be joking.

[The Joker]

You must be joking.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/2985/btmn0574.jpg


Do I look like I'm joking?

:cwink:

[Marx]

:funny: