Chapter 42 - “Villains” – Discussion Thread 11/10/08

[SuperT]

He knew Bob because Bob was using the cover "Regional Manager for Primatech Paper", Sandra made that clear in season two.

And he was on casual terms with Angela back in season one, that was made evident when called to speak with Claire and Angela spoke with him. She made a comment that they gave Claire to him and he did a piss poor job at keeping her safe.

[SuperT]

And just to give people some hard numbers since some people like that.

Chandra was killed on September 28th, 2006, Mo was notified of his death that same day in India. He didn't come to New York until October 1st.

[Gallagher]

This episode for me was Half-n-half. I liked, nearly even loved, the Petrelli side of things but I really wish they would stop messing with Sylar's origin, that whole side of the story bored me and at times made little sense.

[04nbod]

I loved the Sylar/Elle stuff. I still think that Noah was their child and named by Elle rather than Sylar

[SatEL]

I hope not. His storyline is done.

The character actually has potential unlike a lot of the boring characters left, they should develop Micah character. The guy has lost two parents, they could take a twist like Micah starts turning bad. He uses his power casually and for his own gain and from there build on things, since they have a hardon for time travel perhaps we could also have a future Micah time travel back in time and kick some ass.

[absonic93]

i liked this episode, it was very interesting to learn about the past.

I was like "Oh No!!!" though when Usutu's head was ripped off...

[Matt]

The character actually has potential unlike a lot of the boring characters left, they should develop Micah character. The guy has lost two parents, they could take a twist like Micah starts turning bad. He uses his power casually and for his own gain and from there build on things, since they have a hardon for time travel perhaps we could also have a future Micah time travel back in time and kick some ass.

Plus it was definitely implied that Grandma Uhara had powers. I'd like to see more of her.

[SuBe]

Yeah, Hiro should have just time traveled instead of had the vision.

I got a question, how did Arthur travel to Africa so fast? I mean, Hiro couldn't have been out for that long, right? Arthur was somewhere in the US (I forget where Pinehearst is), how did he Travel to Africa, that would take at least what? 12 hours?

I'm thinking that Arthur wasn't really there, and he was using Maury's power.

[Matt]

Yeah, Hiro should have just time traveled instead of had the vision.

I got a question, how did Arthur travel to Africa so fast? I mean, Hiro couldn't have been out for that long, right? Arthur was somewhere in the US (I forget where Pinehearst is), how did he Travel to Africa, that would take at least what? 12 hours?

I'm thinking that Arthur wasn't really there, and he was using Maury's power.

Arthur stole Peter's powers. Peter's powers included Nathan's flight.

[absonic93]

well Arthur absorbed Peter's powers

Peter had absorbed Hiro's powers.

[Mikelus]

This episode was the worst of the season so far and had all the problems that are destroying the series: plot holes, lame stories, etc.
No wonder the ratings hit a new low for the series:

Heroes = 7.83 million

Chuck beat Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles, but that might be the only “good news” for NBC (if coming in third can be good news). Heroes fell to a series low and though NBC is declaring it the “new hit” with Christian Slater in “the role everyone is talking about”, My Own Worst Enemy came in last among the big three at 10pm with an anemic 4.25 million and a 1.8/5 among 18-49 year olds.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/11/11/monday-ratings-dancing-wins-viewers-comedies-a-big-bang-for-cbs/7898

More of this awful ratings and it's cancellation time, fanboys be ready so when it happens, you don't end "traumatized".

[absonic93]

well that's depressing....I love Heroes though, and I don't think it's bad at all. People online are just too critical..

[SuperT]

lol @ Cancellation. Other then The Office, Heroes is still the #2 highest rated show on NBC. Their shows all across the board are falling in the ratings.

The only thing that's going to cause Heroes to go away is if they keep up with the budget they have now. They've already taken steps to alieviate that with letting Alexander and Jesse go.
I'm assuming they'll be paring down the cast by Volume 4 as well.

got a question, how did Arthur travel to Africa so fast? I mean, Hiro couldn't have been out for that long, right? Arthur was somewhere in the US (I forget where Pinehearst is), how did he Travel to Africa, that would take at least what? 12 hours?

He took all of Peter's abilities, which includes Hiro's teleportation and Nathan's flight, so he could have used either one to get to Africa.

[GL1]

You think Jess and Alexander have a significant impact on the budget? Based on what? How much of the 4 million per episode do you think was going to them? Do you think the new showrunners will make less????

The character actually has potential unlike a lot of the boring characters left, they should develop Micah character. The guy has lost two parents, they could take a twist like Micah starts turning bad. He uses his power casually and for his own gain and from there build on things, since they have a hardon for time travel perhaps we could also have a future Micah time travel back in time and kick some ass.

Check and check. Micah is a character with potential. Unlike Nathan, Tracy, Matt, and others who have had a lot of decent storylines, there's nowhere for them to go. There's a difference between character and storyline. Micah is one storyline away from being awesome.

[Matt]

lol @ Cancellation. Other then The Office, Heroes is still the #2 highest rated show on NBC. Their shows all across the board are falling in the ratings.

The only thing that's going to cause Heroes to go away is if they keep up with the budget they have now. They've already taken steps to alieviate that with letting Alexander and Jesse go.
I'm assuming they'll be paring down the cast by Volume 4 as well.



He took all of Peter's abilities, which includes Hiro's teleportation and Nathan's flight, so he could have used either one to get to Africa.

I wouldn't be so sure. Getting rid of 2 minor, one episode characters isn't going to justify the costs of this show. They have a massive ensemble cast and it is a very effect heavy show. If this drops to 6 million, NBC will not be bringing it back for season 4.

[carrrnuttt]

Umm, except I watched season one via DVD after I already was a moderator. I didn't watch season one in first run. Nice revisionist history though.

LOL

How about this? Arguments ABOUT Season One, then?

As for your "revisionist history" stuff, I KNOW you weren't a mod when I first called you out for your incessant whining (your username was in blue). Mostly because when I noticed you were a mod, my first thought was: "WHY?"

Here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=13163768#post13163768

OMG!!! Someone call the WAAAAAAAHHHMBULANCE! :dry:

Dude. It's not the "heroes-fans" that are being "fickle" around here. YOU'RE the one who keeps whining about "story-pacing" or some such crap, that takes away from YOUR enjoyment of it.

Too flipping bad for you, yes, but you don't have to get all uppity and upset when someone disagrees with you, which happens to be a large majority of the posters in the SHH Heroes forum.

Like I said, wait for the eff-ing DVD to come out, so you can fast-forward to what makes YOU enjoy the show. All of your whining about the show and those of us who actually enjoy it exactly as it is won't change a thing, except keep making you look like a whiny female dog.

YOU chose not to watch the 1st season at all, until the DVD came out. YOU only started following the show after you watched a whole first season almost all at once, which allowed you see the story unfold at a much faster pace. Now, you're whining about the pace. See how someone can perceive that as a bit "spoiled-brat-ish"?

PLEASE get the DVD if/when it comes out, and stay out of here with your whiny ways.

That's ^ dated: 11-04-2007, 07:42 PM

And this: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=290068

Hello Video Gamers,

As I'm sure you know I am the new global moderator, and if you have read the forum announcement, I am going to be paying special attention to this forum for the time being. Why? Because the video game (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=290068#) forum is pretty unique on the Hype. It is kind of a lawless wasteland where moderators dare not enter. Well, that ends today. This thread is the starting point. I've created it for two reasons:

1) To really specify what needs done in the video games forum. To take your comments and ideas. This place is kind of a mess, and I am going to need help cleaning it up, so any ideas or thoughts you would like to throw at me can be posted here (or PMed to me, if you prefer).

2) To clarify any questions you may have on the rules of the Hype. This place seems to have been pretty exempt from the rules for the past couple years and that has got to end. If you have any questions about what the rules are you can ask them and I will clarify. But the constant flaming, baiting, and trolling over a piece of metal and wires is going to end. There is nothing wrong with debate, but insulting another Hypster in the process is unacceptable.

I know this forum can be cleaned up and I look forward to working with you guys to do it and turning the video games forum into the premiere forum on the Hype :yay:


...is dated: 11-30-2007, 01:25 PM

[SuperT]

You guys are too busy looking at ratings overall and not looking at where the money actually comes from. It doesn't come from those, its comes from the 18-34 demo, the demographic that advertisers (yes we love that shiz) are grabbing up. It's beating out everything else, that's where the money comes in.

We as advertisers like to advertise during the shows that are drawing the crowd that buys those products, that's the 18-34 crowd and right now Heroes is bringing those in on a consistant basis. It's a 3.9, which is totally lower then it should, but the only thing closer to it is Dancing with the Hasbeens which is grabbing a 3.0.

Look, I'm not making excuses, the ratings are not good, I'm putting things in to perspective. Is Heroes tanking in the ratings? Yes. Will it be getting cancelled anytime soon with all information we have? No.

We still have a lot to go people, calm the hell down. lol

[SuBe]

lol @ Cancellation. Other then The Office, Heroes is still the #2 highest rated show on NBC. Their shows all across the board are falling in the ratings.

The only thing that's going to cause Heroes to go away is if they keep up with the budget they have now. They've already taken steps to alieviate that with letting Alexander and Jesse go.
I'm assuming they'll be paring down the cast by Volume 4 as well.



He took all of Peter's abilities, which includes Hiro's teleportation and Nathan's flight, so he could have used either one to get to Africa.
I forgot about that. Damn.

[carrrnuttt]

You guys are too busy looking at ratings overall and not looking at where the money actually comes from. It doesn't come from those, its comes from the 18-34 demo, the demographic that advertisers (yes we love that shiz) are grabbing up. It's beating out everything else, that's where the money comes in.

We as advertisers like to advertise during the shows that are drawing the crowd that buys those products, that's the 18-34 crowd and right now Heroes is bringing those in on a consistant basis. It's a 3.9, which is totally lower then it should, but the only thing closer to it is Dancing with the Hasbeens which is grabbing a 3.0.

Look, I'm not making excuses, the ratings are not good, I'm putting things in to perspective. Is Heroes tanking in the ratings? Yes. Will it be getting cancelled anytime soon with all information we have? No.

We still have a lot to go people, calm the hell down. lol

Don't forget that Heroes also has a major tv share of some large-market foreign countries/areas, such as Australia, the UK, Hong Kong, and even Japan.

[Star]

I'm pretty sure that Matt was un-modded for awhile as a joke once, or part of a game or something. That was probably when you saw him blue. I'm fairly sure he's been a mod for ages.

Why is this being debated...?

[The Apocalypse]

LOL

How about this? Arguments ABOUT Season One, then?

As for your "revisionist history" stuff, I KNOW you weren't a mod when I first called you out for your incessant whining (your username was in blue). Mostly because when I noticed you were a mod, my first thought was: "WHY?"

Here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=13163768#post13163768



That's ^ dated: 11-04-2007, 07:42 PM

And this: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=290068



...is dated: 11-30-2007, 01:25 PM

HAHA you went back to look for his posts. That's sad.

[Star]

That's devotion :heart:

[JustABill]

That's great. And I won't say why. :heart:

[carrrnuttt]

HAHA you went back to look for his posts. That's sad.

"Sad" or not, it's fairly simple when you know what parameters to search for, and the context they're in. I knew what I was talking about and he didn't. There's no shame in proving that, especially when it's so easy to do.

[Primal Slayer]

Plus it was definitely implied that Grandma Uhara had powers. I'd like to see more of her.

So would I. They totally need to bring Micah back. Shoot, have the Company take him in and start training him. But getting rid of the Hawkins/Sanders family all together is just sad.

[The Apocalypse]

"Sad" or not, it's fairly simple when you know what parameters to search for, and the context they're in. I knew what I was talking about and he didn't. There's no shame in proving that, especially when it's so easy to do.

It's a TV show. Even better, it's a message board. He doesn't like the show. Who cares.

[SuBe]

Wow, going back more than a year to prove a point.

Sad doesn't begin to describe it.

[Hush]

I thought this was a great episode, why the hate on it? It explained alot and was fun. Im psyched for next week and Hiro better keep his powers!

[Batz]

I thought this was a great episode, why the hate on it? It explained alot and was fun. Im psyched for next week and Hiro better keep his powers!

he can just teleport out.. leaving ando on hes own.... therefore leading to them testing the new formula on ando, giving him powers and turning him against hiro, thus giving us Hiro's vision of the future in the first ep (think it was the first?) just a theory, even if Hiro loses hes powers now the eclipse episode is the one after this, so he wil lgt them back soon, seems pointless taking them away for one episode!

[Magenta666]

he can just teleport out.. leaving ando on hes own.... therefore leading to them testing the new formula on ando, giving him powers and turning him against hiro, thus giving us Hiro's vision of the future in the first ep (think it was the first?) just a theory, even if Hiro loses hes powers now the eclipse episode is the one after this, so he wil lgt them back soon, seems pointless taking them away for one episode!

he isnt going to lose his powers, or as you say if he does hell just get them back

but arthur is going to erase his memory...so he cant warn anyone

[The Caped Knight]

he isnt going to lose his powers, or as you say if he does hell just get them back

but arthur is going to erase his memory...so he cant warn anyone

Actually I think Arthur took both Hiro's powers & memory .

[Syncos]

I actually liked this episode a lot. It seemed to get back to the season one formula a bit with focusing on specific characters, and providing backstory. Not sure I dig where how the Sylar aspect went down. But it seemed to fit pretty well.

I loved the claude shoutout with the invisible man taking flint down.

This is probably the least annoying Hiro's been in an episode since mid season one. probably due to his minor supporting role. but still. a high note.

As for Matt's take on HRG and the inner workings of Primatech. He had no interaction with Angela, Arthur or Linderman in this episode. He knows of Bob, but if Bob was working under people, and it's a chain of command, and HRG is getting his orders from Thompson. I don't see how that flubs up any of his season one characterization. He was still just an agent, taking orders from the person above him. The whole point of the first few seasons was for Noah to start to question blindly taking orders. Taking a look at who and what is around him.

[Gilpesh]

I loved the claude shoutout with the invisible man taking flint down.

So did I. But unlike me, don't think it through.

[Magenta666]

Actually I think Arthur took both Hiro's powers & memory .

yeah, but again, with the eclipse coming, i dont really see the issue

[Hush]

That is if the eclipse even gives people powers i mean its possible yes but it may just be a symbolism thing.

[The Caped Knight]

yeah, but again, with the eclipse coming, i dont really see the issue

Arthur's a power hungry Man, he probably is trying to steal all the Heroes powers he can so no one can stop his plans .

[Magenta666]

hmmm...yeah

[Magenta666]

Arthur's a power hungry Man, he probably is trying to steal all the Heroes powers he can so no one can stop his plans .

he already has hiros powers because he has peters powers...he really doesnt need to steal any anymore

[stillanerd]

Finally caught this episode after forgetting it was on last night. And just like the comic books this series is inspired by, there's a lot of retconning going on. Some of it was inspired (Meredeth not only worked for the Company and is Flint's sister, but she unintentionally caused the very train accident that made Claire come to the rescue from season 1)...

Some of it was pretty bad (so now not only is Sylar not really bad because his powers can make him crazy, it was the Company--i.e. Elle under HRG orders--which pushed him over the edge to become a serial killer? I understand they're trying to have it be part of this moral ambiguity that's been going on all season, but this is turning Sylar into an anti-hero is really overdoing it now.)...

...And others just seemed totally contradictory (we've been told that Arthur's "death" was the result of "suicide," now they're saying it was a "heart-attack" from Angela's poisoned soup? Does this mean that Tim Kring, like George Lucus with Star Wars, has to go back through season 1 and redo certain key scenes in order to change this?).

Of course, it was a shocker having Arthur show up at the end and apparently absorb Hiro's ability or erase his memories like he did Angela's in the flashbacks. Although, considering how he killed the "African Issac," it pretty much goes to show that that character was nothing more than a plot device in order to have a "future" episode and a "flashback" episode. Not to mention that he turned out to be a waste of time.

[SuperT]

And others just seemed totally contradictory (we've been told that Arthur's "death" was the result of "suicide," now they're saying it was a "heart-attack" from Angela's poisoned soup? Does this mean that Tim Kring, like George Lucus with Star Wars, has to go back through season 1 and redo certain key scenes in order to change this?).

Angela changed the story to suit her needs.

In the season one episode "Don't Look Back" she told Peter he died of a suicide, but in the season one episode "Six Months Ago" when Nathan goes to Peter's apartment to tell him Arthur had died, he tells Peter he died of a heart attack.

[Neptune]

Uhm....if Arthur can put a thought into someone's head, why didn't just tell Nathan to leave Linderman alone? :huh:

Why did Claude work for the company a year ago when in season 1, it had been 7 years since he'd been in contact with the company? The same company that tried to kill him by the way.

I thought Elle was a bit out of character. Sure now she seems more of a good guy but back then she was crazy psycho. She didn't have any problems with killing the irish guy for instance. I found her a little too goody goody.

Other than that, excellent episode. Especially the way some scenes overlaped with scenes from season 1. Why is Kristen Bell so freakin' HOT!?

[SuperT]

I thought Elle was a bit out of character. Sure now she seems more of a good guy but back then she was crazy psycho. She didn't have any problems with killing the irish guy for instance. I found her a little too goody goody.

I think you have it a little backwards. She seemed like someone with at least a heart back then, but now she's a little bit more dark and sociopathic.

[Ion Kenshin]

so all in all another episode i enjoyed very well...i dozed off between one or two parts (was deathly tired for some reason) but i dvr'ed it and am gonna watch it again tonight. i will definately be back in here to discuss things further.

side note: i am a bit annoyed by the fact the every week after heroes more time is wasted with people trying to criticize each other and make their point law(ive been guilty of it myself but am making an effort to not to do so anymore.) Let people have their opinions yes it may vary from yours and it will sometimes...hence opinion

[bluehulk]

My only Issue with this episode was the Sylar storyline it didn't make sense, these events from the way they set it up took place after Sylar killed that guy who asked him for help in season 1 so when did he have time to meet Elle in that time frame, I know they had other story lines going on but that seemed like it was shoe horned in there, and then if they knew each other they sure didn't act like it when Sylar was about to scalp her at the company when knox and them escaped, maybe I need to watch that epsiode again but to me it seemed like the Sylar thing was forced, I like the fact that they are trying to add depth to Sylar but it seems like they don't know what direction to take.

[DarkSuperman]

Uhm....if Arthur can put a thought into someone's head, why didn't just tell Nathan to leave Linderman alone? :huh:

Why did Claude work for the company a year ago when in season 1, it had been 7 years since he'd been in contact with the company? The same company that tried to kill him by the way.

I thought Elle was a bit out of character. Sure now she seems more of a good guy but back then she was crazy psycho. She didn't have any problems with killing the irish guy for instance. I found her a little too goody goody.

Other than that, excellent episode. Especially the way some scenes overlaped with scenes from season 1. Why is Kristen Bell so freakin' HOT!?

Good question about Arthur, why didn't he forcibly change his mind? Seems like the simple solution.

Who said the invisible man working for the company was claude? They can have more than one invisible man under their employ, I mean claire and Adam have the same abilities. So do Matt and Maury. Powers are a dime a dozen in the heroes-verse.

I agree with you on Elle, where was her sociopathic ways back in the day?

And yes...Kristen Bell is extremely freaking hot...I would love to "Ring her bell" (Hah! I had to say it!) :woot:

[carrrnuttt]

Wow, going back more than a year to prove a point.

Sad doesn't begin to describe it.

Bahaha.

You're acting like I had to break into some super-secret post archive to get the data I posted. It took less than 5 minutes to get, and post that whole thing. Also thanks for confirming that I proved my point. Matt called me out on my historical incisiveness, and I proved to him that my recollection was, indeed, relatively factual. How did I do that? By going into the history we were discussing. Imagine that.

Don't leave logic behind, in your dire need to sneer at someone you disagree with.

And know this, I analyze and program computer code by trade. If I wanted to pick apart this show like some of you do WITH YOUR EVERY POST, it wouldn't stand a chance. But then again, I know how to leave the criticism of shows to the professional critics. I am here to discuss/read about nuances - not pick apart everything I consider bad about the show, without adding anything positive to the discussion.

Please understand that nuances can be BOTH good or bad. That's the difference between a critical fan, and a critic pretending to be a fan.

I have watched Smallville from the very beginning. The last two seasons, I have found myself rolling my eyes almost every show, and fast-forwarding my DVR through the manufactured and fake melodrama. Do you see me in there annoying the ones that remain loyal to the show? I find the show not worth the discussion anymore.

Some of you who criticize Heroes have indicated as much. So why are you still here? I can only assume that you are here simply to "show up" anyone who might not agree with you, or to give an indirect F U to the show - while annoying everyone else. Please disprove my logic if I am wrong in my assumption.

This is why I called out Matt SPECIFICALLY in regards to what another poster said about those who liked the show and wanting it to go back to where it was - it took him less than ten posts after his first ever thread/post in here to express a dislike for this show. That's why I'm sitting here wondering why he's not only still here, but moderating the damned place.

[Ion Kenshin]

:facepalm :sigh:

[GL1]

Please understand that nuances can be BOTH good or bad. That's the difference between a critical fan, and a critic pretending to be a fan.

Explain this concept. It sounds like semantics and wordplay from here. Nuances would almost certainly have to be subjective, which can be seen as either good or bad, depending on your perspective, right? Do I have to be in position to see a nuance as good to be a real fan? Do I, as a fan, naturally see nuances as good, because my perspective as a fan supercedes all other judgment?

[carrrnuttt]

Explain this concept. It sounds like semantics and wordplay from here. Nuances would almost certainly have to be subjective, which can be seen as either good or bad, depending on your perspective, right? Do I have to be in position to see a nuance as good to be a real fan? Do I, as a fan, naturally see nuances as good, because my perspective as a fan supercedes all other judgment?

I read complaints in here all the time from the less "passionate" about it, and believe or not, many times I agree with them. I just find it annoying when someone disagrees with the more rabid "criticize for the sake of being critical" people in here, or someone else presents an alternate take on the matter, they almost take it personally, as if by giving another side or view to the issue being discussed, they are being given some kind of personal affront. THAT'S when it gets annoying. THAT'S when it turns from a discussion about the episode, and turns into a "who can humiliate the show and those who disagree with us" competition.

I don't mind it. Just keep it in the gripes thread where that shat belongs. Have you EVER seen me post in there?

And all this by a mod, no less.

Trust me, I have questions about certain things about the show that even the Negatives in here haven't touched on yet. Then, I realize this is just a TV show, and I allow it to take me where it wants to take me. If I don't like it when I get there, then I'll get off, just as I did with Smallville. Complaining about the "trip" every step of the way just kills and makes you overlook whatever else there is that might be redeeming about the show.

I work with deep logic everyday. I'm ok with leaving some logic behind, when it comes to my entertainment. Sometimes, it just isn't supposed to be. That is, as long as it doesn't get ridiculous.

Imagine TV when you were a kid. Can you imagine being able to enjoy what you enjoyed then, if you had the same kind of critical bent Matt and others like him have had for Heroes?

I guess when I watch TV, I turn into that kid again. Think what you will of it, but isn't that the point? If you can't relax and leave the world behind when you sit in front of a show, then don't. Simple.

[chaseter]

If you have a problem with a mod, take it up with them via pm or contact SHH! or Excelsior. Childish back and forth between the both of you should stop.

[Captain_BluTac]

My only Issue with this episode was the Sylar storyline it didn't make sense, these events from the way they set it up took place after Sylar killed that guy who asked him for help in season 1 so when did he have time to meet Elle in that time frame, I know they had other story lines going on but that seemed like it was shoe horned in there, and then if they knew each other they sure didn't act like it when Sylar was about to scalp her at the company when knox and them escaped, maybe I need to watch that epsiode again but to me it seemed like the Sylar thing was forced, I like the fact that they are trying to add depth to Sylar but it seems like they don't know what direction to take.

I personally think Sylar's story in particular had been planned for a while and even if it wasn't at least it clears up a potential plot hole, because in the first few episodes we saw Sylar's "forgive me" room and then next we saw him hew was a calculating sociopathic psycho killer, which lead to the question what could lead a man to such a transition, with this storyline we got an answer in the shape of Elle.

[chaseter]

I personally think Sylar's story in particular had been planned for a while and even if it wasn't at least it clears up a potential plot hole, because in the first few episodes we saw Sylar's "forgive me" room and then next we saw him hew was a calculating sociopathic psycho killer, which lead to the question what could lead a man to such a transition, with this storyline we got an answer in the shape of Elle.
Agreed.

[GL1]

I read complaints in here all the time from the less "passionate" about it, and believe or not, many times I agree with them. I just find it annoying when someone disagrees with the more rabid "criticize for the sake of being critical" people in here, or someone else presents an alternate take on the matter, they almost take it personally, as if by giving another side or view to the issue being discussed, they are being given some kind of personal affront. THAT'S when it gets annoying. THAT'S when it turns from a discussion about the episode, and turns into a "who can humiliate the show and those who disagree with us" competition.

I don't mind it. Just keep it in the gripes thread where that shat belongs. Have you EVER seen me post in there?

And all this by a mod, no less.

Trust me, I have questions about certain things about the show that even the Negatives in here haven't touched on yet. Then, I realize this is just a TV show, and I allow it to take me where it wants to take me. If I don't like it when I get there, then I'll get off, just as I did with Smallville. Complaining about the "trip" every step of the way just kills and makes you overlook whatever else there is that might be redeeming about the show.

I work with deep logic everyday. I'm ok with leaving some logic behind, when it comes to my entertainment. Sometimes, it just isn't supposed to be. That is, as long as it doesn't get ridiculous.

Imagine TV when you were a kid. Can you imagine being able to enjoy what you enjoyed then, if you had the same kind of critical bent Matt and others like him have had for Heroes?

I guess when I watch TV, I turn into that kid again. Think what you will of it, but isn't that the point? If you can't relax and leave the world behind when you sit in front of a show, then don't. Simple.

It all still sounds bit judgmental. Who is doing anything just to humiliate anyone? Who determines where complaints belong? I started the gripes thread when many posters were unwilling to believe that Heroes had dropped in quality. Now, things are a bit different, and I don't see why pointing out the failings of a show that is decreasing in quality should be saved for a certain area anymore.

I personally expect more from shows which offer it. When a show offers me both stimulation of my imaginative inner child as well as stimulation of my cerebral adult critical thinking skills, as only Heroes has ever done, I jump on it, and I look forward to it every week. I didn't have to 'leave the world behind'... I had a fusion of escapism and meaningful cerebral exercise. I didn't have to leave logic behind before, and now I do. Many of the things that were logical and made sense and were deep are now shallow, illogical, plot hole ridden and new plot hole-making retcons seem to appear each and every week.

I used to watch power rangers, anytime the premise caught my eye... watched Operation Overdrive, for instance. I turned into a kid for that because that's all it ever offered me. It's supposed to be for kids.

Heroes was supposed to be more than that... it WAS more than that. Now its not. That's lamentable, and even though I'm adjusting to the fact that Heroes is now shallow 'turn your brain off' entertainment, it still reminds me of how beautiful it used to be every week as it tears itself down.

[chaseter]

It seems that this place is a unique beast. People claim to hate this show, say they don't watch it, say that is sucks now, yet they come in here and spend a lot of their time doing so. What other instance in life does this relate to? You don't get a great pie at a restaurant, go back the second time and it sucks, then go back again and it sucks yet you stay in the restaurant and complain to other patrons about how much the pie sucks and how it was great that one time. It makes no sense.

[Eklypze]

It seems that this place is a unique beast. People claim to hate this show, say they don't watch it, say that is sucks now, yet they come in here and spend a lot of their time doing so. What other instance in life does this relate to? You don't get a great pie at a restaurant, go back the second time and it sucks, then go back again and it sucks yet you stay in the restaurant and complain to other patrons about how much the pie sucks and how it was great that one time. It makes no sense.

Hahahaha Exactly!!

[Eklypze]

Ok i just watched this ep and i loved it. I dont care what people say I still love this show despite its flaws and will watch till the end

[Frodo]

Well I'll put in my two cents for what it's worth. While I don't think think this season was as bad as the last it still feels like alot of the magic has gone. I have my own explanations as to why I think there's a growing disatisfaction but what I don't like someone else may love. I do think that retconning this early in a show run is bad news.

As for Sylar, I think he was at his best in season one . I'm old school. I like the evil Sylar . A guy a who's unpredictable , creepy, and devoid of empthy. While I like the concept of the hunger but I'm really not digging the whole nice guy struggling with his dark side thing. Now I would watch Kirsten Bell selling soap but I felt her character has been tamed way to much. She was one of the few things I liked about season two.

Now I don't hate the show , I just want it to return to the quality of season one. I complain about the show because I want it to change and to continue to tell great stories. The problems can be solved imo but I think it's gonna take scaling back as opposed to throwing in even more characters into the pot.

[blksuperman2]

I really enjoyed this episode. I'm really surprised that so many people dislike this season of Heroes. Sure it's not as good as season 1 but it's still very interesting.

They couldn't very well have Sylar be the main crazed villian that he was in season 1 and I like the inventative approach they're taking.

[Frodo]

I personally think after season 1 that Sylar shouldn't be in every single episode but return every once and a while . I think if anything they've used him too much but that's just me.

[Frank]

I wonder why Usutu didn't see Arthur coming to kill him. He saw Hiro twice.

[chaseter]

I wonder why Usutu didn't see Arthur coming to kill him. He saw Hiro twice.
Maybe it was his destiny to die by Arthur? Good question though. He did leave Ando and Hiro in there so he went outside for a reason.

[GL1]

I personally think Sylar's story in particular had been planned for a while and even if it wasn't at least it clears up a potential plot hole, because in the first few episodes we saw Sylar's "forgive me" room and then next we saw him hew was a calculating sociopathic psycho killer, which lead to the question what could lead a man to such a transition, with this storyline we got an answer in the shape of Elle.

Then it was really bad planning. They did work in the 'forgive me' angle, which is more of a religious apology type thing rather than something you say to a random customer. But they didn't plan Elle to be empathic, or else she would not have been a remorseless psychopath in S2. They didn't plan for Sylar to be just getting started around epi 1 of S1, or else they wouldn't have had him already have killed 5+ people before the season started.

It was an explanation, regardless of the quality, and it had a connection to S1, but it was not 'planned out' by anyone who cared about making sense.

Ok i just watched this ep and i loved it. I dont care what people say I still love this show despite its flaws and will watch till the end

I'll probably watch it to the end to, and I still enjoy it at times, despite its flaws. I don't have to cover my ears though, or ignore the flaws.

I wonder why Usutu didn't see Arthur coming to kill him. He saw Hiro twice.

They don't care. Why bother trying to explain something the writer's don't care about. Label this among Kaitlin and "Pandora's Box."

It seems that this place is a unique beast. People claim to hate this show, say they don't watch it, say that is sucks now, yet they come in here and spend a lot of their time doing so.

Who says this?

Perhaps you didn't love the show as much, or as deeply as I did, so a decrease in quality and depth will not affect you like it does me.

Tell me about the symbol.
Tell me about Geitelman.
Tell me about D.L.'s lost storyline.
Tell me about Charles Deveaux's Power
Tell me about why Sylar went to Kirby Plaza.
Tell me how Isaac's power works.
Tell me why the show is called "Heroes"

Your calm acceptance of S3, suggests, to me, that you didn't "get" S1 on a level deeper than S3 is. You think it was just 'pie.' S1 was an fully conceived emotional, intellectual and almost spiritual experience. S3 is just a show. If you don't get that, then none of the gripes will make any sense to you.

But you've heard this all before, haven't you? So why do you insist on taking potshots at those who are dissatisfied with this season of Heroes?

[SuperT]

Tell me about the symbol.

That was already explained. It's two Japanese symbols put together that means "Godsend" or "Great Power." Nathan also told us last season it was the symbol that Arthur used for his law firm.

Tell me about Geitelman.
Tell me about D.L.'s lost storyline.

Did you read the graphic novels from season one? D.L. and especially Hana's history and continuing story were all told there.

Tell me how Isaac's power works.

o_0

[Magenta666]

Then it was really bad planning. They did work in the 'forgive me' angle, which is more of a religious apology type thing rather than something you say to a random customer. But they didn't plan Elle to be empathic, or else she would not have been a remorseless psychopath in S2. They didn't plan for Sylar to be just getting started around epi 1 of S1, or else they wouldn't have had him already have killed 5+ people before the season started.

It was an explanation, regardless of the quality, and it had a connection to S1, but it was not 'planned out' by anyone who cared about making sense.



I'll probably watch it to the end to, and I still enjoy it at times, despite its flaws. I don't have to cover my ears though, or ignore the flaws.



They don't care. Why bother trying to explain something the writer's don't care about. Label this among Kaitlin and "Pandora's Box."



Who says this?

Perhaps you didn't love the show as much, or as deeply as I did, so a decrease in quality and depth will not affect you like it does me.

Tell me about the symbol.
Tell me about Geitelman.
Tell me about D.L.'s lost storyline.
Tell me about Charles Deveaux's Power
Tell me about why Sylar went to Kirby Plaza.
Tell me how Isaac's power works.
Tell me why the show is called "Heroes"

Your calm acceptance of S3, suggests, to me, that you didn't "get" S1 on a level deeper than S3 is. You think it was just 'pie.' S1 was an fully conceived emotional, intellectual and almost spiritual experience. S3 is just a show. If you don't get that, then none of the gripes will make any sense to you.

But you've heard this all before, haven't you? So why do you insist on taking potshots at those who are dissatisfied with this season of Heroes?

i agree with much about what your saying, especially the last episode, which i loved (the petrellis line) and hated at the same time (sylars line)

if anything, they should have pushed when this whole thing happened back a bit, not the first ep of s1 it didnt fit correctly

and i agree, i dont understand why they are just allowed to change how the characters are, especially sylar and elle, why do we need to have bleeding heart villains?

but i second that whole "watching the show until the end" thing...which by the looks of it...may be very soon

[Primal Slayer]

Well one thing is for sure, they need to introduce a new main villan to take over Sylars previous role.

[shadowdog]

there will be a new villain, if you've read any of the spoiler sections in this forum you'd know....
his name is the Hunter and he will be chasing the heroes all over the place in volume 4 (The second half of this season)

[Neptune]

Well I'll put in my two cents for what it's worth. While I don't think think this season was as bad as the last it still feels like alot of the magic has gone. I have my own explanations as to why I think there's a growing disatisfaction but what I don't like someone else may love. I do think that retconning this early in a show run is bad news.

As for Sylar, I think he was at his best in season one . I'm old school. I like the evil Sylar . A guy a who's unpredictable , creepy, and devoid of empthy. While I like the concept of the hunger but I'm really not digging the whole nice guy struggling with his dark side thing. Now I would watch Kirsten Bell selling soap but I felt her character has been tamed way to much. She was one of the few things I liked about season two.

Now I don't hate the show , I just want it to return to the quality of season one. I complain about the show because I want it to change and to continue to tell great stories. The problems can be solved imo but I think it's gonna take scaling back as opposed to throwing in even more characters into the pot.

I totally agree. Except for the hunger, that's just lame. I don't hate season 3 but i don't think it's better than season 2. There's just more action. They made a huge mistake by making Sylar a Petrelli and a victim of his powers. And Elle has been tamed way too much indeed. She was already psycho, with a hint of good but still psycho. Now her dad was killed, she lost her job and her powers are completely uncrontrolable. She should be pissed the F off.

[Nitehawk013]

Usutu probably didn't see Aurthur coming for a simple reason. His powers prolly are not on every second of the day. He doesn't see everything that is about to happen. He gets visions of certain things. Much like Isaac didn't see every single thing, only certain things.

As for Sylar and Elle...I thought it was a great story. Sylar had a heart. Elle broke it. People have become heartless killers for the same reason countless times. In this case, Sylar had not only a mother constantly harping on being "special" but now a girl he was falling for was all caught up in being "special" and betrayed him. So he snaps and decides he'll steal what makes others special so he is the only one who is special. And the HUnger just pushes him all the more. No more being remorseful (until this season). He just kills.

Further, in S1 it was the FBI and Parkman who didn't know who Sylar really was if I recall. I don't recall HRG not knowing about Sylar. They were looking for him. I don't have the S1 dvds so I can't rewatch it yet.

[Magenta666]

Usutu probably didn't see Aurthur coming for a simple reason. His powers prolly are not on every second of the day. He doesn't see everything that is about to happen. He gets visions of certain things. Much like Isaac didn't see every single thing, only certain things.

As for Sylar and Elle...I thought it was a great story. Sylar had a heart. Elle broke it. People have become heartless killers for the same reason countless times. In this case, Sylar had not only a mother constantly harping on being "special" but now a girl he was falling for was all caught up in being "special" and betrayed him. So he snaps and decides he'll steal what makes others special so he is the only one who is special. And the HUnger just pushes him all the more. No more being remorseful (until this season). He just kills.

Further, in S1 it was the FBI and Parkman who didn't know who Sylar really was if I recall. I don't recall HRG not knowing about Sylar. They were looking for him. I don't have the S1 dvds so I can't rewatch it yet.

you explain it better than the show did....and thats the issue

still, Elles character was changed, you have to admit that

[SuperT]

Further, in S1 it was the FBI and Parkman who didn't know who Sylar really was if I recall. I don't recall HRG not knowing about Sylar. They were looking for him. I don't have the S1 dvds so I can't rewatch it yet.

No you're right. It was Parkman and the FBI plus everyone else that didn't know who Sylar was.

Noah and The Company already knew of him and were actively looking for him.

[GL1]

That was already explained. It's two Japanese symbols put together that means "Godsend" or "Great Power." Nathan also told us last season it was the symbol that Arthur used for his law firm.

Does that strike you as a little bit interesting? That these two apparently unrelated things have the exact same symbol??? That it should be the same symbol that appears when Nikki's "Multiple Personality Disorder" activates? Why is that?

The symbol, its meaning and relevance are a perfect example of some depth to the show that is gone, now. Some people don't miss it - maybe never noticed it - but I certainly do.

Did you read the graphic novels from season one? D.L. and especially Hana's history and continuing story were all told there.

Of course I did. I also watched the deleted scenes from Season 1, which had the lost D.L. storyline. I wasn't asking questions, far from it. Notice the lack of question marks.

[Nitehawk013]

Elle is different, but we don't know everything that has happened to her from then til now.

She was just used to feed an innocent man to Sylar. Her dad shows no affection at all. He just barks orders and demeans her. The only way she gets approval is by following orders to the letter. Who knows what she has done and seen that may have changed her. And it really doesn't take all that long to change someone.

[Neptune]

Elle is different, but we don't know everything that has happened to her from then til now.

She was just used to feed an innocent man to Sylar. Her dad shows no affection at all. He just barks orders and demeans her. The only way she gets approval is by following orders to the letter. Who knows what she has done and seen that may have changed her. And it really doesn't take all that long to change someone.

That is exactly why she was out of character. Those are some of the things that made her a sociopath. She was way too nice and sympathetic in this episode.

[SuperT]

That is exactly why she was out of character. Those are some of the things that made her a sociopath. She was way too nice and sympathetic in this episode.

This episode was also a year ago....

[chaseter]

Perhaps you didn't love the show as much, or as deeply as I did, so a decrease in quality and depth will not affect you like it does me.

Tell me about the symbol.
Tell me about Geitelman.
Tell me about D.L.'s lost storyline.
Tell me about Charles Deveaux's Power
Tell me about why Sylar went to Kirby Plaza.
Tell me how Isaac's power works.
Tell me why the show is called "Heroes"

Your calm acceptance of S3, suggests, to me, that you didn't "get" S1 on a level deeper than S3 is. You think it was just 'pie.' S1 was an fully conceived emotional, intellectual and almost spiritual experience. S3 is just a show. If you don't get that, then none of the gripes will make any sense to you.

But you've heard this all before, haven't you? So why do you insist on taking potshots at those who are dissatisfied with this season of Heroes?
I hope it is nice and cozy up there on your pedestal. Did I not say S3 was dumbed down more than S1 in another thread? Did I not say I hate clone story lines? Did I not address my concerns that Mohinder is now pointless? Please STFU. Your elitist attitude is annoying, it has gotten old, and it is pointless. If you want to make a difference for this show that you loved and had an emotional and physical experience with 2 years ago...do something about it. Go and make a difference instead of just complaining to the patrons about how your pie was once great:o

I secondly don't need to have a pissing contest with you concerning who loved S1 more. How ridiculously idiotic. "If you really loved the show as much as I did...answer these questions then.":whatever:

[Magenta666]

I hope it is nice and cozy up there on your pedestal. Did I not say S3 was dumbed down more than S1 in another thread? Did I not say I hate clone story lines? Did I not address my concerns that Mohinder is now pointless? Please STFU. Your elitist attitude is annoying, it has gotten old, and it is pointless. If you want to make a difference for this show that you loved and had an emotional and physical experience with 2 years ago...do something about it. Go and make a difference instead of just complaining to the patrons about how your pie was once great:o

I secondly don't need to have a pissing contest with you concerning who loved S1 more. How ridiculously idiotic. "If you really loved the show as much as I did...answer these questions then.":whatever:

amen brotha

[chaseter]

Sorry but I had to vent :) But I am being serious...send in some fan fiction, write a letter, call their offices, or even go there and quit diluting this place with rhetoric that is redundant.

[Nitehawk013]

I talk to people who watch Heroes every week away from this board. You know what I hear. They are fine with the show and how it has gone. Those who have stopped watching have all said the same thing. They stopped when the strike killed S2 and just never got back to watching this year. Many found other things to do on Monday nights and have not gone back to sitting in front of the TV.

The people who seem so distraught about the show's direction are just those who spend WAY too much of their lives concerned about a fictional television show.

[Matt]

I talk to people who watch Heroes every week away from this board. You know what I hear. They are fine with the show and how it has gone. Those who have stopped watching have all said the same thing. They stopped when the strike killed S2 and just never got back to watching this year. Many found other things to do on Monday nights and have not gone back to sitting in front of the TV.

The people who seem so distraught about the show's direction are just those who spend WAY too much of their lives concerned about a fictional television show.

Ah, I'm sure your poll is quite scientific. Clearly something is wrong. The ratings were dropping prior to the strike. Audiences are not happy with this show. Entertainment Weekly does not run 4 page articles on how to fix a show that is not broken.

[Gilpesh]

The people who seem so distraught about the show's direction are just those who spend WAY too much of their lives concerned about a fictional television show.

Yes.... insults instead of answers to problems that people bring up. That's a sign of a fan who is watching a show that is 'going strong'.

[chaseter]

Well I think we can all agree that My Worst Enemy needed to be cancelled.

[Gilpesh]

Well I think we can all agree that My Worst Enemy needed to be cancelled.

Once I heard that the personality thing was just a switch in his brain.... yes, the interesting concept was now meh.

[chaseter]

Once I heard that the personality thing was just a switch in his brain.... yes, the interesting concept was now meh.
Poor Slater. He will never get a break.

[Magenta666]

Well I think we can all agree that My Worst Enemy needed to be cancelled.

haha i didnt like it from the first ep

[Booznian]

It's getting cancelled, and I actually liked that show. I like Christian Slater. :[

[3 Dev Adam]

Erm. It was... fun. Full of plotholes and stuff, but fun.

[3 Dev Adam]

Erm. It was... fun. Full of plotholes and stuff, but fun.

[chaseter]

Now lets hope Knight Rider gets trashed.

[chaseter]

Now lets hope Knight Rider gets trashed.

[Magenta666]

why is everyone double posting?

[chaseter]

The hype is evil tonight I guess.

[shadowdog]

Now lets hope Knight Rider gets trashed.

yeah, I think it's worse that My Own Worst Enemy was. I'm sad to see it go. there was potential there...somewhere