Superman Reboot theory.

[protocida]

I Have a theory about the Superman reboot and why whe aren't hearing anything about it after it's announcement months ago:

It's well know that Warner is planning to reboot Superman to distance it from Bryan Singer's version and, by default, Richard Donner's version. Mark Millar statements about Warner checking his script indicates that they're willing to retell Superman's origin.

In the meantime, DC Comics approves Geoff Johns and Gary Frank to retell Superman's origin in the six-parted "Superman: Secret Origins" debuting next year. The same Johns and Frank that are receveing several compliments by their run in "Action Comics" and the big Saga New Krypton.

So, i think it's possible that Warner is awaiting "Superman: Secret Origins" lauching to adapt it in the new Superman movie reboot. What do you think?

[Jochimus]

I can already see one glaring flaw in your theory.

You suggested that WB is waiting to adapt Johns' and Frank's Secret Origins story in a bid to reboot the Superman film franchise away from the Donner era.

Problem is, judging by these covers for the aforementioned Secret Origins story, there's going to be a fair bit of the Donner era IN this origin story:
http://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/solicitation-artwork/March-2009/origin_CVRs.jpg

[protocida]

I did not expressed myself correctly.

I don't mean they WANT to get away of Donner's version. I mean they want to get away of Singer's version and, by default, they'd have to get away of Donner's version because they share the same cronology.

Donner's version is a classic. I think that, if the producers could use it to make a new movie without confusing the audience because of the Singer issue.

Actually, it even adds more sense to my vision (Which i hope i'm beeing able to express LOL). Adapting Johns's version, they can have Donner's version without having it. Ya got my gig?

[solidsnake86]

Depending on the timeline of when they plan for this film to come out and how the reception is of this story I think it will have a major influence on the film. Johns has a great interview with newsarama right now and he says its not going to be smallville or STM its going to be his own story.

Obviously the fortress is similar but they more or less decided on that in 2006. That doesn't mean that all of krypton has to look like its made from crystals. It can have various designs and the crystals could be one type of technology.

The one thing I think they would probably leave out is the legion of superheroes part of his origin. This story looks like its also going to touch upon, metallo luthor and parasite if you look at the covers.

[protocida]

The Legion of the Superheroes arc would be left off, obviously.

But, depending of John's plans for Luthor, Metallo, Parasite and Bizarro, whe might be able to maintain them (And have Brainiac, Zod, Darkside and Etc) on the sequels.

[Showtime]

I Have a theory about the Superman reboot and why whe aren't hearing anything about it after it's announcement months ago:

It's well know that Warner is planning to reboot Superman to distance it from Bryan Singer's version and, by default, Richard Donner's version. Mark Millar statements about Warner checking his script indicates that they're willing to retell Superman's origin.

In the meantime, DC Comics approves Geoff Johns and Gary Frank to retell Superman's origin in the six-parted "Superman: Secret Origins" debuting next year. The same Johns and Frank that are receveing several compliments by their run in "Action Comics" and the big Saga New Krypton.

So, i think it's possible that Warner is awaiting "Superman: Secret Origins" lauching to adapt it in the new Superman movie reboot. What do you think?

When I found out they were doing a new origin for Superman months and months ago, I had the same theory. That the new comic run would serve as the new origin for the reboot to be. It is possible that a lot of elements from this origin tale finds its way into a new Superman movie.

[SatEL]

When I found out they were doing a new origin for Superman months and months ago, I had the same theory. That the new comic run would serve as the new origin for the reboot to be. It is possible that a lot of elements from this origin tale finds its way into a new Superman movie.

Well I think it depends on how it is received by fans, I mean just look at birthright it was set to be the official origin story until the backlash from fans.

[DavidTyler]

I can already see one glaring flaw in your theory.

You suggested that WB is waiting to adapt Johns' and Frank's Secret Origins story in a bid to reboot the Superman film franchise away from the Donner era.

Problem is, judging by these covers for the aforementioned Secret Origins story, there's going to be a fair bit of the Donner era IN this origin story:
http://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/solicitation-artwork/March-2009/origin_CVRs.jpg

I hope that I'm not really seeing a return to the Silver Age of Superboy and the Legion Clubhouse. I would really hate that.

I'm also not a fan of Crystaline Krypton. I'm hoping that isn't a part of this either.

[mego joe]

I hope that I'm not really seeing a return to the Silver Age of Superboy and the Legion Clubhouse. I would really hate that.

I'm also not a fan of Crystaline Krypton. I'm hoping that isn't a part of this either.

Guess you haven't been reading the comics the past few years have you?

[hippie_hunter]

I hope that I'm not really seeing a return to the Silver Age of Superboy and the Legion Clubhouse. I would really hate that.
As Mego Joe said, apparently you haven't been reading Superman comics lately because this isn't a return of Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes. That's been brought back quite some time ago. Superboy was brought back in the end of Infinite Crisis.

I'm also not a fan of Crystaline Krypton. I'm hoping that isn't a part of this either.
Krypton in the comics is a combination of the Silver Age and Donner Kryptons.

[Kal-El Fan]

If the story turns out to be as good as I'm hoping, that would be great.

[solidsnake86]

I would have loved to see an origin with luthor, metallo and parasite but it also has its limitations. Depending on how long they want to spend on the origin I think it would really short change luthor.

Thats why I would want to see brainaic with the sequel being able to focus on luthor, his hate for superman and henchmen such as parasite and metalo. You could have more of the reporting aspect which luthor provides if lois and clark investigate him. Also metallo could be explained if they used a brainiac droans body and brainiacs knowledge to create him. I could almost see brainiac as a catalist to some of his villains that are more out there.

It should be interesting how its received but I'm still thinking they'll use the beginning aspects and end up changing the villain because luthor has been used 1 time to many.

[protocida]

I think it's canonical that Superman's first foe was Lex Luthor. Even if Lex does't play a big part, he must be in the first movie.

[Jochimus]

Krypton in the comics is a combination of the Silver Age and Donner Kryptons.

Yup. I hope they at least keep the interior of the new Fortress pretty much the same as what they've got now; IMO it's a nice blend of the two...
http://www.chrisroberson.net/uploaded_images/Action_Comics_Annual_10_Fortress_spread-797093.jpg

[KrypJonian]

I hope that I'm not really seeing a return to the Silver Age of Superboy and the Legion Clubhouse. I would really hate that.

I'm also not a fan of Crystaline Krypton. I'm hoping that isn't a part of this either.

I think you're going to be pretty disappointed judging by the picture in your post...:oldrazz:

[NotFadeAway]

why.....why must the silver age all but officially return?

[hippie_hunter]

why.....why must the silver age all but officially return?

Why do people complain about the Silver Age coming back in several DC comics like Superman, Green Lantern, and the Flash. As long as the stories are great (and for that matter they are), that's all that should matter.

Johns' use of the Silver Age for Superman has been excellently done.

[NeoRanger]

As long as the stories are great (and for that matter they are), that's all that should matter.
But it's not all that it matters, because there are conceptual variations from era to era. It's unrealistic to assume that everyone will like the current comics, despite the return of the Silver Age, as it was unrealistic to believe that everyone would like Byrne's '86 reboot, which was vastly different than the Silver/Bronze Age. No matter how well-written the stories are.

[Double Down]

I can already see one glaring flaw in your theory.

You suggested that WB is waiting to adapt Johns' and Frank's Secret Origins story in a bid to reboot the Superman film franchise away from the Donner era.

Problem is, judging by these covers for the aforementioned Secret Origins story, there's going to be a fair bit of the Donner era IN this origin story:
http://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/solicitation-artwork/March-2009/origin_CVRs.jpg

As much as I love Gary Frank's art, there is something creepy about the younger versions of Clark here. Christopher Reeve's face on a kid doesn't really work for me.

[Superfreak]

I Have a theory about the Superman reboot and why whe aren't hearing anything about it after it's announcement months ago:

It's well know that Warner is planning to reboot Superman to distance it from Bryan Singer's version and, by default, Richard Donner's version. Mark Millar statements about Warner checking his script indicates that they're willing to retell Superman's origin.

In the meantime, DC Comics approves Geoff Johns and Gary Frank to retell Superman's origin in the six-parted "Superman: Secret Origins" debuting next year. The same Johns and Frank that are receveing several compliments by their run in "Action Comics" and the big Saga New Krypton.

So, i think it's possible that Warner is awaiting "Superman: Secret Origins" lauching to adapt it in the new Superman movie reboot. What do you think?


DC/Warner comes out with atleast 3 Superman origin/reorigins a year... it therefore means nothing.

This exact same situation happened when SR was coming into being.

[Superfreak]

I can already see one glaring flaw in your theory.

You suggested that WB is waiting to adapt Johns' and Frank's Secret Origins story in a bid to reboot the Superman film franchise away from the Donner era.

Problem is, judging by these covers for the aforementioned Secret Origins story, there's going to be a fair bit of the Donner era IN this origin story:
http://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/solicitation-artwork/March-2009/origin_CVRs.jpg

Clearly, there is only one thing in this picture that links it to donner. So I think your conclusion is a little bit out there.

[Ultimate_Superman]

DC/Warner comes out with atleast 3 Superman origin/reorigins a year... it therefore means nothing.

This exact same situation happened when SR was coming into being.
No it didn't what happened around the time of Superman Returns was One Year Later. Which was not an origin telling but was actually leading into this new origin we are about to get now. The only thing that Superman Returns did to the comics was the addition of Chris Kent (who it was reported we will be seeing again soon) and that while we got Donner/Silver age Krypton we got Singer's Metropolis and Superman Returns suit that's all that Superman Returns did to the comics. Birthright was widely not accepted as the new origin for Superman mainly because it was suppose to be the jump off for their Ultimate line but mid way through was made into the new origin which then messed up so many stories of the past. I for one am very interested in this book and hope that this will be the blue print for the next movie. Hell you could even title the movie Superman: Secret Origin if you wanted to. I am also looking forward to the Secret Origin books for Batman and Wonder Woman that will soon be coming out as well.

[Ultimate_Superman]

Clearly, there is only one thing in this picture that links it to donner. So I think your conclusion is a little bit out there.Well if you read the Superman comics a lot of things comes from Donner now. The way Clark acts, the FOS, the look of Krypton, the Jor-El hologram, the use of Crystals, even the ship that sent him to eath. So its not one thing however Johns may change that with this book but I don't see him changing much since he added all this stuff in there in the first place.

[mego joe]

Why do people complain about the Silver Age coming back in several DC comics like Superman, Green Lantern, and the Flash. As long as the stories are great (and for that matter they are), that's all that should matter.

Johns' use of the Silver Age for Superman has been excellently done.

I think what's really nice is that Johns and Morrison on Batman are trying to incorporate aspects of ALL eras into the books. After the R.I.P. storyline in Batman even Bat-Mite and the sci-fi Batman stories now fit into Batman's history. Johns has done the same thing incorporating all the Braniacs into a grand unified Braniac. It's not just that it's going back to the Silver Age, it's that the Silver Age is being re-incorporated instead of throwing out version like after Crisis On Infinite Earths. THere are plenty of post-Crisis aspects that are still around.

[protocida]

why.....why must the silver age all but officially return?
Because it's awesome.

[Venom'sDad]

Superman will be rebooted; but, not for the reason you describe.

It is my contention, Warner will start the franchise anew, with a new director, producer, and cast; in conjunction with the end of Nolan’s Batman and start of other solo projects like WW, GL, etc. Probably, so they can use those stars at some point, in a JL film, with a new Batman. Pretty much following the Marvel format.

Really, there's no surprise here.

[Jochimus]

Well if you read the Superman comics a lot of things comes from Donner now. The way Clark acts, the FOS, the look of Krypton, the Jor-El hologram, the use of Crystals, even the ship that sent him to eath.

Not to mention the Phantom Zone villains.

So its not one thing however Johns may change that with this book but I don't see him changing much since he added all this stuff in there in the first place.

I suspect this new Secret Origins story probably isn't going to deviate too much from what we've already seen from Johns and Frank - my guess is that since their particular "take" on Superman hasn't really been given an in-continuity version of the origin, that's probably what they'll be leaning toward, with minor alterations. Filling in the blanks, you might say.

[NotFadeAway]

I blame Bryan Singer for all the silver age/Donner influences in the Superman books of today. They tried to fall in line with a movie they believed would be more liked and successful, and now everything is just ruined because of Bryan Singe's hard on for Donner.

I am a fan of Byrne's MOS and Birthright, Superman: For All Seasons, and I love the TAS Superman stories. I'm a fan of Clark being the real person, I think it opens up more stories. Thats perhaps my biggest beef with Donner/Silver Age, I hate bumbling Clark. I think, personally, that the silver age/Donner concepts are boring, one dimensional stories about a Kryptonian Jesus, and I prefer stories about the man that is Superman. And I dislike Crystal ball Krypton, or should I say Krystal ball Krypton. Post-Crisis Superman has also never been given a fair shake live action wise. L&C was a romance series that had a bad actor as Clark/Superman, and I don't know what the hell Smallville wants to be, but there is another bad actor in Welling. I'm under the personal belief that with a great actor and script, post crisis Superman owns in a big screen movie.

But I'm not going to freak out, and I'm going to tell other PC/Byrne/Birthright/TAS lovers not to as well. These silver age fans, it's just there time. One day, and it will happen as soon as DC decides to stop living in the past, one day we will have our version of Geoff Johns, and we will own the silver age once and for all. It's just a matter of time......and slightly off topic, I hate that Barry Allen is back. Wally West will always be the best Flash.

[hippie_hunter]

I blame Bryan Singer for all the silver age/Donner influences in the Superman books of today. They tried to fall in line with a movie they believed would be more liked and successful, and now everything is just ruined because of Bryan Singe's hard on for Donner.
As I've said multiple times and even by mego joe, even if Superman Returns was never made, the Superman comics of today would still be heavily influenced by the Donner films and Silver Age.

Like Bryan Singer, Geoff Johns has a massive hard on for Richard Donner, if not more considering that he worked for Donner at one point. The only difference between Singer and Johns is that Johns at least recognizes that there is more to Superman than the Donner material hence why he has Silver Age influences and has most of the post-Crisis stuff still in continuity.

Superman Returns coming out the same time as One Year Later was just a coincidence. The Superman mythos are the way they are today because of how Geoff Johns is interpreting them (quite fantastically by the way), not because of Bryan Singer.

[Jochimus]

Like Bryan Singer, Geoff Johns has a massive hard on for Richard Donner, if not more considering that he worked for Donner at one point. The only difference between Singer and Johns is that Johns at least recognizes that there is more to Superman than the Donner material hence why he has Silver Age influences and has most of the post-Crisis stuff still in continuity.

:up:

[mego joe]

As I've said multiple times and even by mego joe, even if Superman Returns was never made, the Superman comics of today would still be heavily influenced by the Donner films and Silver Age.

Like Bryan Singer, Geoff Johns has a massive hard on for Richard Donner, if not more considering that he worked for Donner at one point. The only difference between Singer and Johns is that Johns at least recognizes that there is more to Superman than the Donner material hence why he has Silver Age influences and has most of the post-Crisis stuff still in continuity.

Superman Returns coming out the same time as One Year Later was just a coincidence. The Superman mythos are the way they are today because of how Geoff Johns is interpreting them (quite fantastically by the way), not because of Bryan Singer.

You are right on target. I'm not crazy about the Donner bumbling Kent, and wish we could lose him somehow. My issue has always been that SR has nearly ruined the positives of the Donnerverse. I have no real issue with Donner stuff included in the comics other than it reminds me of SR. If SR had never come out I would probably think the Donner Fortress being in the comics was cool. Unfortunately, SR has severly colored my impressions of the Donnerverse for the worse, despite having experienced the Donnerverse stuff as a child growing up.

[Jochimus]

You are right on target. I'm not crazy about the Donner bumbling Kent, and wish we could lose him somehow. My issue has always been that SR has nearly ruined the positives of the Donnerverse. I have no real issue with Donner stuff included in the comics other than it reminds me of SR. If SR had never come out I would probably think the Donner Fortress being in the comics was cool. Unfortunately, SR has severly colored my impressions of the Donnerverse for the worse, despite having experienced the Donnerverse stuff as a child growing up.

Frankly, it doesn't remind me of SR at all BECAUSE of SR not doing a very good job with the best parts of S:TM and SII (I just feel awkward using the term "Donnerverse" when Donner was only really involved in the first movie and part of the second - by this logic, I suppose "Last Son" would probably fall under the umbrella of what I'd call the "Donnerverse"). And IMO Johns' Clark isn't nearly as clumsy as Reeve's or Routh's portrayal - he's more like the quiet guy in the corner who nobody else in the bullpen really pays any attention to because they think he's weird (of course, given that he and Lois are married, I suppose that'd be impetus enough for the man to be acting a little less goofy). And hey, at least Johns' Lex isn't obsessed with land.

In as much as Johns and Frank have been homaging Donner and the Silver Age, there's still much more of Post-Crisis continuity still intact, and I seriously doubt that all the crystal Fortresses and white-haired Jor-Els and Kara Zor-Els in Superman's past are going to change that, any more than a retro-styled cartoon with a brighter and more humorous portrayal of Batman is going to degrade the Dark Knight of the comics that we've known for the last 30 years.

[NeoRanger]

In as much as Johns and Frank have been homaging Donner and the Silver Age, there's still much more of Post-Crisis continuity still intact
This really has no relevance for the post-Crisis readership. How much exactly of post-Crisis continuity is intact? How can we know? Someone had the great idea to reboot Superman after IC, without rebooting Superman after IC, so the only way to really know is come across contradictions in future stories that nullify the earlier, post-Crisis ones.

And, really, you think it matters to someone who favors post-Crisis Superman? OK, so Superman died in the hands of Doomsday and Lois found something marry-worthy in the man who needs to have a security council with himself about tying his shoes in a public place. Still, Pa's dead. Jor-El's a giant head. We have the "true Brainiac", as opposed to the old "fake" ones. I've already mentioned Clark. Zod is now his STM incarnation, more or less, complete with the matching crew. Clark had powers since he was a kid. The Superboy is back in continuity, even if he's just restricted to the 31st Century. There is a boatload of Kryptonians out there (even before Superman saved Kandor). Lex might have once been a businessman, but now he's a full-blown criminal mastermind/mad scientist. Supergirl is Kara Zor El and Kryptonite is multi-colored (and, yes, I know they both appeared well-before IC, but that path was being walked on since then).

It's great that you guys can enjoy all that, really, but let's not pretend that it's quite the same as it was before and there is no reason for complaints from those of us who have an issue with all this.

[hippie_hunter]

This really has no relevance for the post-Crisis readership. How much exactly of post-Crisis continuity is intact? How can we know? Someone had the great idea to reboot Superman after IC, without rebooting Superman after IC, so the only way to really know is come across contradictions in future stories that nullify the earlier, post-Crisis ones.
You really aren't getting it

And, really, you think it matters to someone who favors post-Crisis Superman?Post-Crisis continuity still happened.

OK, so Superman died in the hands of DoomsdayYes. They specifically mentioned that Superman was killed by Doomsday in the current New Krypton arc.

and Lois found something marry-worthy in the man who needs to have a security council with himself about tying his shoes in a public place.Lois knows that the Clark that Clark presents in the Daily Planet is not the true person. The person she married is Clark Kent, she knows that true Clark.

Still, Pa's dead.Yes he is, and it was done in an excellent manner and it's not like he erased Pa from post-Crisis continuity.

Jor-El's a giant head.No, Jor-El is dead. What Superman talks to is a computer simulation within the Sunstone crystals.

We have the "true Brainiac", as opposed to the old "fake" ones.It was done to combine the multiple variations of Brainiac and to tell them in a coherent fashion that makes sense on why Brainiac has been portrayed as a Coluan, a robot, a computer program, and whatnot.

Zod is now his STM incarnation, more or less, complete with the matching crew.The Zod that Donner presented is the best incarnation of Zod.

Clark had powers since he was a kid.Clark has had powers since he was a kid in most incarnations of Superman. Smallville, Superman: The Movie, Superman: The Animated Series, etc.

The Superboy is back in continuity, even if he's just restricted to the 31st Century.I was iffy on this, but after reading it, Johns' handling of the Legion has been really well done.

There is a boatload of Kryptonians out there (even before Superman saved Kandor).Don't blame Johns on that one. Loeb brought back Supergirl. Superboy was a half-human/half-Kryptonian hybrid. The Phantom Zone criminals have been around for a while. There was a Kryptonian Zod from a pocket dimension that Byrne had Superman kill.

Lex might have once been a businessman, but now he's a full-blown criminal mastermind/mad scientist.LexCorp is still in continuity. Lex was a businessman until he became President of the United States and then he was essentially overthrown by Batman and Superman. Johns' first arc on Superman OYL had Lana Lang become the CEO of what was left of LexCorp with the company getting rid of Lex completely because of Lex's criminal activities ruining the company.

Supergirl is Kara Zor ElLoeb.

and Kryptonite is multi-colored (and, yes, I know they both appeared well-before IC, but that path was being walked on since then).So. Kryptonite has been multi-colored before pre and post-Crisis.

It's great that you guys can enjoy all that, really, but let's not pretend that it's quite the same as it was before and there is no reason for complaints from those of us who have an issue with all this.The problem isn't that people who complain about what Johns is doing with the Superman comics are complaining about the concepts he uses by automatically going ewwww...Silver Age and are just automatically disdaining it simply because it wasn't a part of the comics they're used to instead of the actual writing.

The writing is downright fantastic.

[hippie_hunter]

You are right on target. I'm not crazy about the Donner bumbling Kent, and wish we could lose him somehow. My issue has always been that SR has nearly ruined the positives of the Donnerverse. I have no real issue with Donner stuff included in the comics other than it reminds me of SR. If SR had never come out I would probably think the Donner Fortress being in the comics was cool. Unfortunately, SR has severly colored my impressions of the Donnerverse for the worse, despite having experienced the Donnerverse stuff as a child growing up.

Just ignore Superman Returns then. My hatred of the Schumaker films and Catwoman doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the Burton Batman films even though they're a part of those movies continuity.

But I like the bumbling Clark. In my opinion, it kinda enhances the love between Lois and Clark because only she essentially gets to see the true Clark Kent that no one else gets to see.

[NeoRanger]

You really aren't getting it
Oh, the irony.

Post-Crisis continuity still happened.
No, it didn't. Parts of Post-Crisis continuity still happened and it's still not the point.


Yes he is, and it was done in an excellent manner and it's not like he erased Pa from post-Crisis continuity.
He's dead. People who liked him alive aren't happy.

No, Jor-El is dead. What Superman talks to is a computer simulation within the Sunstone crystals.
You don't say! I thought Jor-El was haunting the Fortress.

It was done to combine the multiple variations of Brainiac and to tell them in a coherent fashion that makes sense on why Brainiac has been portrayed as a Coluan, a robot, a computer program, and whatnot.
It was done, because they liked that new Brainiac. And they went on to add a coherent explanation for him.

The Zod that Donner presented is the best incarnation of Zod.
I love it how you assert your personal taste as fact, every time we bring up comic books. Especially when you're dodging the question in doing so.

Clark has had powers since he was a kid in most incarnations of Superman. Smallville, Superman: The Movie, Superman: The Animated Series, etc.
In Smallville they have been developing slowly, In STM he had (for all we know) strength and speed. in TAS they appeared in his teens overnight.... wait. What are we discussing again? Ah, yes, it's not a post-Crisis element.

I was iffy on this, but after reading it, Johns' handling of the Legion has been really well done.
I don't care about the Legion. I care that I loathe the Silver Age Superboy. And I care that he's not Post-Crisis.

Don't blame Johns on that one. Loeb brought back Supergirl. Superboy was a half-human/half-Kryptonian hybrid. The Phantom Zone criminals have been around for a while. There was a Kryptonian Zod from a pocket dimension that Byrne had Superman kill.
I never blamed Johns for anything. I blame DiDio and DC for everything.

LexCorp is still in continuity. Lex was a businessman until he became President of the United States and then he was essentially overthrown by Batman and Superman. Johns' first arc on Superman OYL had Lana Lang become the CEO of what was left of LexCorp with the company getting rid of Lex completely because of Lex's criminal activities ruining the company.
LexCorp is in continuity, but Lex is a mad scientist/career criminal now. I don't see what's so hard to understand about what I'm saying.

Loeb.
DC.


The problem isn't that people who complain about what Johns is doing with the Superman comics are complaining about the concepts he uses by automatically going ewwww...Silver Age and are just automatically disdaining it simply because it wasn't a part of the comics they're used to instead of the actual writing.
The problem is that there are conceptual differences between eras. Some people like concepts that come from the Silver Age, some do not. The current era uses mainly concepts from the Silver Age and the Donnerverse, even if they had to adjust them into an existing continuity. If people don't like these concepts, there is a pretty good chance they won't like the books. Just like pretty much every hardcore Superman fan was screaming in agony after Byrne's reboot.

Really, what's so hard to understand?

The writing is downright fantastic.
It's good. All-Star was fantastic. Action is just good.

[solidsnake86]

First of all, zod was a mess of a character and Johns was able to turn him into one of superman's most compelling villains and I would even go so far as to say top 3. I hated the idea of the movie villains in last son but when I read it it was probably one of the best superman stories to date. I also think for zod not to be in a superman film with the backstory from last son would be a wasted opportunity of a potentially great on screen villain. He even managed to turn non into a compelling character. Neoranger if post crisis is so great why is it that practically no superman story has been hailed as being that good besides out of contuinity ones, I think that speaks volumes.

[NeoRanger]

zod was a mess of a character and Johns was able to turn him into one of superman's most compelling villains and I would even go so far as to say top 3
What the hell is "compelling" about Johns' Zod? I barely even remember the stories I read him in.

Neoranger if post crisis is so great why is it that practically no superman story has been hailed as being that good besides out of contuinity ones, I think that speaks volumes.
I'll sit here and wait for you to point out where I even alluded to the "greatness" of the Post-Crisis era. Come on. I'm waiting.

[hippie_hunter]

No, it didn't. Parts of Post-Crisis continuity still happened and it's still not the point.
The vast majority of post-Crisis continuity still happened. The only thing that is really changing is Superman's roots.

He's dead. People who liked him alive aren't happy.
While *****ing over the fact that Pa was killed in the Donner movies and Silver Age. Pa Kent being alive was great and could have been stupid if it weren't handled properly. But Johns really worked.

You don't say! I thought Jor-El was haunting the Fortress.
But what the hell is wrong with Jor-El's simulation being in the Fortress?

It was done, because they liked that new Brainiac. And they went on to add a coherent explanation for him.
:huh:

I love it how you assert your personal taste as fact, every time we bring up comic books. Especially when you're dodging the question in doing so.
It kinda is. Most people associate Zod with the Donner version and most Zods in the comics were just...lame. Pocket Universe Zod, Russian Zod, Azzarello's Zod.

Johns took Donner's Zod which is the Zod most people think of and made him much more compelling and interesting.

In Smallville they have been developing slowly, In STM he had (for all we know) strength and speed. in TAS they appeared in his teens overnight.... wait. What are we discussing again? Ah, yes, it's not a post-Crisis element.
Almost every incarnation of Superman had his powers in his teens. Even Man of Steel and Birthright. The only difference is how they were used and developed.

I don't care about the Legion. I care that I loathe the Silver Age Superboy. And I care that he's not Post-Crisis.
You are way too obsessed with post-Crisis.

I never blamed Johns for anything. I blame DiDio and DC for everything.
DiDio deserves no blame or praise for what's going on with Superman. Everything goes to Johns, Busiek, Robinson, Gates, and soon Rucka.

DiDio deserves blame for other things such as poorly managing the Titans books, pissing off Chuck Dixon, completely botching Countdown, etc.

LexCorp is in continuity, but Lex is a mad scientist/career criminal now. I don't see what's so hard to understand about what I'm saying.
No the way you worded it was completely different. Lex's corporate angle was great and it still exists in a different fashion. However, with the crimes Lex committed and the extent, the angle of him being LexCorp's owner and President of the United States could only last for so long.

The problem is that there are conceptual differences between eras. Some people like concepts that come from the Silver Age, some do not. The current era uses mainly concepts from the Silver Age and the Donnerverse, even if they had to adjust them into an existing continuity. If people don't like these concepts, there is a pretty good chance they won't like the books. Just like pretty much every hardcore Superman fan was screaming in agony after Byrne's reboot.

Really, what's so hard to understand?
But there's really nothing wrong with concepts. As long as the writing is good that is what should matter the most. Any writer can take the most silly concept and make it good. Just like how any writer can take a great concept and make it suck horribly. Disdaining anything that isn't post-Crisis is absurd just like disdaining anything that is pre-Crisis.

It's good. All-Star was fantastic. Action is just good.
Action Comics is downright amazing. The Legion and Brainiac arcs are phenominal. New Krypton on the other hand is just good.

[hippie_hunter]

What the hell is "compelling" about Johns' Zod? I barely even remember the stories I read him in.
The fact that he had a legitimate reason to overthrow Krypton's government and really did want to save Krypton. While Zod is a bad person, there are reasons why he turned the way he did. Jor-El turned his back on him. The Kryptonian government looked down upon the military. They had no desire to save Krypton.

I'll sit here and wait for you to point out where I even alluded to the "greatness" of the Post-Crisis era. Come on. I'm waiting.
You go off acting as if you disdain and downright hate anything pre-Crisis. That is where the allusion comes from.

[NeoRanger]

The vast majority of post-Crisis continuity still happened. The only thing that is really changing is Superman's roots.
That's highly unlikely. If Brainiac is revamped, then the stories involving the previous Brainiacs are too. Same with Zod. Same with the Phantom Zone killings. Maybe even the same with the Matrix Supergirl.

And once again, whether it happened or not isn't what I'm getting at.

While *****ing over the fact that Pa was killed in the Donner movies and Silver Age. Pa Kent being alive was great and could have been stupid if it weren't handled properly. But Johns really worked.
Which is completely irrelevant to my argument. If people like Pa to be alive in the comic books, they're going to dislike the fact that he's no longer part of the on-going series.

It kinda is.
Seriously? Your opinion is a fact? Wow.


You are way too obsessed with post-Crisis.
Hardly. I'm making a point, that you have yet to go anywhere near.

DiDio deserves no blame or praise for what's going on with Superman. Everything goes to Johns, Busiek, Robinson, Gates, and soon Rucka.
He's the company's Executive Editor. I assume everything gets passt him before it reaches paper and/or shelves.

No the way you worded it was completely different. Lex's corporate angle was great and it still exists in a different fashion. However, with the crimes Lex committed and the extent, the angle of him being LexCorp's owner and President of the United States could only last for so long.
How can I make this clear enough for you to see what I'm saying? Let's see:
People like businessman Luthor. They don't like mad scientist Luthor. Luthor is now a full-blown mad scientist. To these people, it doesn't matter if he was once a businessman in this continuity, because they don't like the Luthor they read about now.


But there's really nothing wrong with concepts. As long as the writing is good that is what should matter the most. Any writer can take the most silly concept and make it good. Just like how any writer can take a great concept and make it suck horribly.
But in this context, the connection between the concept and the writing is irrelevant. It's not about how good the stories are, it's about how much I care to read a Superman story where, say, Clark is invisible. Or how turned off I get when I see Jor-El's giant head.

I don't care how well-written -as I've heard- Grey's Anatomy is, because I have no interest in a soap-opera hospital drama.

Action Comics is downright amazing. The Legion and Brainiac arcs are phenominal.
You're doing it again. Let's just leave it to personal taste and be done with it.

You go off acting as if you disdain and downright hate anything pre-Crisis. That is where the allusion comes from.
I haven't so much as referred to my personal opinion on Silver Age concepts, let alone disdain the pre-Crisis era (and that's a gross generalization, considering that I find Golden Age Superman incredibly compelling). I'm making a very simple point that with most post-Crisis concepts thrown out of the window, it's perfectly understandable for post-Crisis fans not to be nearly as excited about Superman anymore.

[C. W. Saturn]

Thats perhaps my biggest beef with Donner/Silver Age, I hate bumbling Clark.

Clark Kent was never as "bumbling" as Reeve in the comics. But you don't know that, you just know the newer Superman comics.

And it's great that DC finally brings back all those pre-crisis concepts. Because those were the cornerstones that made Superman awesome and unique. Post-crisis SUperman was just your other superhero.

[hippie_hunter]

Clark Kent was never as "bumbling" as Reeve in the comics. But you don't know that, you just know the newer Superman comics.

And it's great that DC finally brings back all those pre-crisis concepts. Because those were the cornerstones that made Superman awesome and unique. Post-crisis SUperman was just your other superhero.

Post-Crisis Superman had some very cool elements. And even gave us one of the best runs on a Superman title (Rucka on Adventures of Superman). That interpretation of Superman shouldn't be knocked down just like the Silver Age and Donner interpretations shouldn't.

[hippie_hunter]

That's highly unlikely. If Brainiac is revamped, then the stories involving the previous Brainiacs are too. Same with Zod. Same with the Phantom Zone killings. Maybe even the same with the Matrix Supergirl.
Those stories still happened. The previous Brainiacs still happened, they were just drones for the true Brainiac. Superman still killed Zod, The OMAC Project which is a part of Infinite Crisis portrayed Superman as still regretful of killing the Phantom Zone criminals. Linda Danvers/Matrix appeared just recently in Reign in Hell.

And once again, whether it happened or not isn't what I'm getting at.
You're going off on them though.

Which is completely irrelevant to my argument. If people like Pa to be alive in the comic books, they're going to dislike the fact that he's no longer part of the on-going series.
He's still an integral part of the Superman mythos. It's not like Pa died before Clark became Superman.

Seriously? Your opinion is a fact? Wow.
Yes it is.

Hardly. I'm making a point, that you have yet to go anywhere near.
You're not making your point clearly. The way your presenting your point is as if anything that is Silver Age is automatically dumb.

He's the company's Executive Editor. I assume everything gets passt him before it reaches paper and/or shelves.
Point taken.

How can I make this clear enough for you to see what I'm saying? Let's see:
People like businessman Luthor. They don't like mad scientist Luthor. Luthor is now a full-blown mad scientist. To these people, it doesn't matter if he was once a businessman in this continuity, because they don't like the Luthor they read about now.
So these people don't like progression but want everything to stay the same?

But in this context, the connection between the concept and the writing is irrelevant. It's not about how good the stories are, it's about how much I care to read a Superman story where, say, Clark is invisible. Or how turned off I get when I see Jor-El's giant head.

I don't care how well-written -as I've heard- Grey's Anatomy is, because I have no interest in a soap-opera hospital drama.
I'd say that TV show genres and concepts used in comics are very different things.

I haven't so much as referred to my personal opinion on Silver Age concepts, let alone disdain the pre-Crisis era (and that's a gross generalization, considering that I find Golden Age Superman incredibly compelling). I'm making a very simple point that with most post-Crisis concepts thrown out of the window, it's perfectly understandable for post-Crisis fans not to be nearly as excited about Superman anymore.
This argument is getting nowhere.

[C. W. Saturn]

Post-Crisis Superman had some very cool elements. And even gave us one of the best runs on a Superman title (Rucka on Adventures of Superman). That interpretation of Superman shouldn't be knocked down just like the Silver Age and Donner interpretations shouldn't.

The only thing I liked was the "Exile" arc.

[mego joe]

Just ignore Superman Returns then. My hatred of the Schumaker films and Catwoman doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the Burton Batman films even though they're a part of those movies continuity.


Oh, I do. I've just lived in fear for the past 2 years that they would try to work in stuff from SR into the comic book continuity. In order to truly get SR out of my head is ignore these boards! :)


But I like the bumbling Clark. In my opinion, it kinda enhances the love between Lois and Clark because only she essentially gets to see the true Clark Kent that no one else gets to see.

To each his own on Clark then. I've just never liked the bumbling Clark- he's just goofy. I'm just not laughing at him.

Interesting point- as good as Johns writing has been, I think Busiek's stuff was better.

[hippie_hunter]

Oh, I do. I've just lived in fear for the past 2 years that they would try to work in stuff from SR into the comic book continuity. In order to truly get SR out of my head is ignore these boards! :)



To each his own on Clark then. I've just never liked the bumbling Clark- he's just goofy. I'm just not laughing at him.

Interesting point- as good as Johns writing has been, I think Busiek's stuff was better.

I personally found Busiek to be rather underwhelming and was annoyed whenever he wrote Chris Kent's dialogue.

I find Robinson to be much better. I loved his use of Krypto. And I can't wait for Rucka to take over Action Comics.

[Double Down]

Busiek used to be fantastic. Now he is just about unreadable. His Aquaman and Trinity runs were/are unreadable.

[NeoRanger]

His Superman run post-Camelot was just as unreadable. A pity, for the man who once wrote "Secret Identity".

[Double Down]

His Superman run post-Camelot was just as unreadable. A pity, for the man who once wrote "Secret Identity".

I agree.

[hippie_hunter]

His Superman run post-Camelot was just as unreadable. A pity, for the man who once wrote "Secret Identity".
The Camelot stuff with Khyber was pretty cool. But the Third Kryptonian gave me a feeling of "That's it?" and his dialogue for Chris was horrid with the "Mama Lois."

[mego joe]

I personally found Busiek to be rather underwhelming and was annoyed whenever he wrote Chris Kent's dialogue.


I guess I found Chris Kent annoying so it that didn't bother me.

I find Robinson to be much better. I loved his use of Krypto. And I can't wait for Rucka to take over Action Comics.

Yes, Krypto had a nice moment at the end of the "Atlas" arc.

[mego joe]

The Camelot stuff with Khyber was pretty cool. But the Third Kryptonian gave me a feeling of "That's it?" and his dialogue for Chris was horrid with the "Mama Lois."

I know what you mean about the third Kryptonian thing, but I still liked that story. I liked a lot of the single issue stories he did. The "Back in Action" story was good as well. I think Busiek's stories suffered a bit from the "Last Son" story being so far behind schedule that he was pressed into heavy duty service for both Superman and Action for a while. Chris Kent was not supposed to be around in all those stories anyway, so it's possile they suffered from re-writing. I just tried to not pay attention to Chris Kent and just focussed on the Superman stuff.
I think something I preferred about Busiek's stuff was that it didn't have the heavy Donner influence which Johns' stuff has, especially in Last Son which Donner was co-writing. IMO, Johns' best Superman stuff has been the stories with the Legion and the recent Braniac arc. I found "Last Son" completely forgettable and "Return to Bizarro World" just sort of flat.

[NeoRanger]

I never found much reason to blame Busiek's work on Chris Kent, simply because I don't like that little *(&#^*#%. But the completely forgettable Third Kryptonian ark was a mess and the Insect Queen... what the crap?

I didn't care about Robinson's Atlas storyline either, though I hear his latest stuff is pretty decent.

[NotFadeAway]

In my opinion, what Geoff Johns has done is take the post-crisis continuity and characters, and then has found ways to turn them back into there pre-crisis incarnations without starting from scratch. I'm sorry, but I do not like Lex Luthor as a mad scientist/criminal mastermind. Lex Luthor, for me, will always be a corporate businessman/politician. It's just better, hands down in my opinion. And I want Clark Kent as the real, everyday person and Superman as the symbol of hope, not an alien jesus. And I'm afraid this is going to spill over into the next movie, and we will get a tweaked version of the Donner flick, and I do not want that. I want the post-crisis movie with Clark as the real person, Lex as a business mongul/President, a likeable Lois, Kryptonian Braniac, etc etc. You pre-crisis folks have gotten the things you wanted, what about us who love the newer Superman stories. I'm sick of being left out in the cold. I'm being dramatic, but I do not care.

Now, Geoff Johns is a helluva writer, and I wish he was on the post-crisis team, but sadly, he is not. Johns is like Barack Obama for silver age/Donner lovers. I want my Barack Obama, darn it.

If I had my way, in an attempt to please everyone, I would let Johns write all the silver age/Donner stories he wanted, but I would also have a comic that was pure post-crisis/TAS based. The best of both worlds. No matter what, that would be fair to everyone.

[NotFadeAway]

I will say that I'm digging the idea that Secret Origin starts with Clark's first memory and nothing will actually take place of Krypton. I've always said I would do something like that. That way, the audience, along with Clark, will only know Jor-El and Lara through hologram recordings.

[mego joe]

In my opinion, what Geoff Johns has done is take the post-crisis continuity and characters, and then has found ways to turn them back into there pre-crisis incarnations without starting from scratch. I'm sorry, but I do not like Lex Luthor as a mad scientist/criminal mastermind. Lex Luthor, for me, will always be a corporate businessman/politician. It's just better, hands down in my opinion. And I want Clark Kent as the real, everyday person and Superman as the symbol of hope, not an alien jesus. And I'm afraid this is going to spill over into the next movie, and we will get a tweaked version of the Donner flick, and I do not want that. I want the post-crisis movie with Clark as the real person, Lex as a business mongul/President, a likeable Lois, Kryptonian Braniac, etc etc. You pre-crisis folks have gotten the things you wanted, what about us who love the newer Superman stories. I'm sick of being left out in the cold. I'm being dramatic, but I do not care.

Now, Geoff Johns is a helluva writer, and I wish he was on the post-crisis team, but sadly, he is not. Johns is like Barack Obama for silver age/Donner lovers. I want my Barack Obama, darn it.

If I had my way, in an attempt to please everyone, I would let Johns write all the silver age/Donner stories he wanted, but I would also have a comic that was pure post-crisis/TAS based. The best of both worlds. No matter what, that would be fair to everyone.

I don't want Alien Jesus or the bumbling Clark either, but I do like how Johns has incorporated all the versions into one unified version with things like the Fortress and Brainiac and the Legion of Super-Heroes. I wouldn't be surprised if Lex got control of his company again down the road.

[dark_b]

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/solicitation-artwork/March-2009/origin_CVRs.jpg
and i thought that only fanboys are obssesed with donner.
guess not.

this needs to stop. i see f... Reeve in thos drawings.

[hippie_hunter]

I don't want Alien Jesus or the bumbling Clark either, but I do like how Johns has incorporated all the versions into one unified version with things like the Fortress and Brainiac and the Legion of Super-Heroes. I wouldn't be surprised if Lex got control of his company again down the road.

Corporate Lex was great, but I think it's time to move on past that. With all the stuff he's done, he could only get away with it for so long.

Not only that but LexCorp is practically worthless nowadays with Bruce Wayne and Wayne Enterprises owning most of LexCorp's assets and Lana Lang selling off most of LexCorp's remaining assets.

[hippie_hunter]

and i thought that only fanboys are obssesed with donner.
guess not.

this needs to stop. i see f... Reeve in thos drawings.

Gary Frank said that before he started drawing Action Comics that Reeve was his main inspiration for Superman's look because he hates Superman looking like a bodybuilder and the Superman line is currently run by a Donner fanatic.

[DavidTyler]

Guess you haven't been reading the comics the past few years have you?

Let's put it this way ....

I've been buying them....

reading them....

but being engaged by them? uh... not really.

I absolutely am not a fan of the direction DiDio is taking Superman.. or most of the DC line-up for that matter.

[hippie_hunter]

Let's put it this way ....

I've been buying them....

reading them....

but being engaged by them? uh... not really.

I absolutely am not a fan of the direction DiDio is taking Superman.. or most of the DC line-up for that matter.

I'm not a fan of DiDio either, but the one who's taking Superman in the direction it is in is Geoff Johns. The only books that DiDio is personally managing are the Titan books.

[solidsnake86]

I'm a fan of the direction superman is being taken in because for once they are actually trying to make his villains more than just a cheap gimmick and actually give them a story. I can't wait to see what he does with Metallo and Parasite.

[mego joe]

Corporate Lex was great, but I think it's time to move on past that. With all the stuff he's done, he could only get away with it for so long.

Not only that but LexCorp is practically worthless nowadays with Bruce Wayne and Wayne Enterprises owning most of LexCorp's assets and Lana Lang selling off most of LexCorp's remaining assets.

FOrgot about that!!

[NotFadeAway]

I don't want Alien Jesus or the bumbling Clark either, but I do like how Johns has incorporated all the versions into one unified version with things like the Fortress and Brainiac and the Legion of Super-Heroes. I wouldn't be surprised if Lex got control of his company again down the road.

I respect the hell out Geoff Johns writing ability, but he just isn't writing about my favorite versions of the Superman characters.

[mego joe]

I respect the hell out Geoff Johns writing ability, but he just isn't writing about my favorite versions of the Superman characters.

I can appreciate that. Eventhough I've enjoyed some of his stories, there are aspects I haven't cared for. Overall, his JSA and GL stuff seems to be better. But I find his Legion stuff so far to be the best/ most enjoyable.

[hippie_hunter]

I can appreciate that. Eventhough I've enjoyed some of his stories, there are aspects I haven't cared for. Overall, his JSA and GL stuff seems to be better. But I find his Legion stuff so far to be the best/ most enjoyable.

I've been loving Johns' use of Gog and how it's dividing the JSA. And I can't wait for his return to the Flash mythos.

That said, I do pretty much view Johns and Brubaker as comic book writing gods and buy whatever the hell they write. I buy Booster Gold because he was on it, Booster ****ing Gold.

[mego joe]

I've been loving Johns' use of Gog and how it's dividing the JSA. And I can't wait for his return to the Flash mythos.

That said, I do pretty much view Johns and Brubaker as comic book writing gods and buy whatever the hell they write. I buy Booster Gold because he was on it, Booster ****ing Gold.

Johns approach to Booster as a time travelling hero with Rip Hunter sold me. I really have been enjoying that book. The concepts set up by Katz and Johns for that title should be able to be carried on by other competent writers.

I too look forward to Johns handling of Barry Allen.

As for JSA- the Gog thing is taking a while to play out, but reads welll when read in big chunks. I am most excited about JSI of Earth-2.

Brubaker's Captain America has been unbelievably good. It seemed to get better once Captain America was killed. Now isn't THAT weird? He's done a great job with Bucky and Co., especially Natasha and Bucky. I mean- wow. It's just been a fantastic book for about what, 4 years?

[hippie_hunter]

Johns approach to Booster as a time travelling hero with Rip Hunter sold me. I really have been enjoying that book. The concepts set up by Katz and Johns for that title should be able to be carried on by other competent writers.
Yeah, I was kinda worried when Remender came onto the book but he made a nice story that had *****y Mc***** ***** the Super ***** as a character. I'm looking forward to what Jurgens will bring.

I too look forward to Johns handling of Barry Allen.

As for JSA- the Gog thing is taking a while to play out, but reads welll when read in big chunks. I am most excited about JSI of Earth-2.

Brubaker's Captain America has been unbelievably good. It seemed to get better once Captain America was killed. Now isn't THAT weird? He's done a great job with Bucky and Co., especially Natasha and Bucky. I mean- wow. It's just been a fantastic book for about what, 4 years?
:up:

[NotFadeAway]

I hope that Johns knows that the definitive Lex is the corporate/politician Lex. Lex better get his damn company back via dirty but smart tactics here soon.

[hippie_hunter]

I hope that Johns knows that the definitive Lex is the corporate/politician Lex. Lex better get his damn company back via dirty but smart tactics here soon.

If Lex goes back to being a corporate styled villain, he better make a new company. LexCorp is worthless.

And Lex's political career is over.

Personally while I do see the definitive Lex as the corporate/politician Lex, I see that particular chapter of Lex Luthor to be over and closed. His crimes have been fully exposed and he could only get away with what he was doing for so long. Sorta like Umbrella from Resident Evil.

[Jochimus]

I hope that Johns knows that the definitive Lex is the corporate/politician Lex. Lex better get his damn company back via dirty but smart tactics here soon.

Heck, between "Last Son" and "New Krypton", IMO the solution to that is as simple as two words: military contractor.

[Ultimate_Superman]

If Lex goes back to being a corporate styled villain, he better make a new company. LexCorp is worthless.

And Lex's political career is over.

Personally while I do see the definitive Lex as the corporate/politician Lex, I see that particular chapter of Lex Luthor to be over and closed. His crimes have been fully exposed and he could only get away with what he was doing for so long. Sorta like Umbrella from Resident Evil.I see Lex more like the Kingpin. Where now the Kingpin has been exposed for everything he has done but at the same time is still feared and even more powerful because he has nothing to loss.

[hippie_hunter]

I see Lex more like the Kingpin. Where now the Kingpin has been exposed for everything he has done but at the same time is still feared and even more powerful because he has nothing to loss.
The Kingpin is gone. His empire was taken down and put to jail by Daredevil, no longer feared because he was beaten by Spider-Man in front of everyone.

And when he was let go from jail, he renounced his US Citizenship and left. The Hood has taken his place.

[The Sage]

The definitive Lex Luthor is a combination of the corporate, mastermind, and scientist. More than just adept at hostile takeovers, Lex should be the smartest man in the world.

[Dark Knight]

Oh yeah...can you imagine a Superman film that has elements of Waids' Birthright, Loebs' Superman for All Seasons, Johns' Action Comics arc featuring Braniac, with the Superman look and suit design that Jim Lee used in Superman For Tomorrow?? However, I do think they will look to use Johns' upcoming Superman: Secret Orgins arc as well. I will say that I have never liked the idea of Jor El having white hair.

Potential for GREATness!