Would this be a good direction for Captain America?

[AnorexicBatman]

Somebody once said that Clark Kent was Superman's critique of humanity. So I was wondering what if they did something similar in the upcoming movie. Captain America or Steve Rogers more so is supposed to represent everything that is good about America or an American citizen. Strong moral values, brave, steadfast and patriotic.

Now, when Rogers finds himself in modern times he would most definitely see a very different United States. What if he sees that the nation has degraded, corruption and crime are everywhere. People no longer have strong morals and are willing to run like cowards at the slightest sign of danger. No longer the shining beacon it once was.

Would you like it if the question arises that what is Captain America fighting for? The old America which no longer exists or the new America which he cannot accept as it goes against what he believes in.

I'm not saying the the movie should be bogged down by social commentary but I think it would raise it above others in terms of storytelling.
A kind of journey of sorts where in the end Cap realizes that all is not lost and there is still hope. Your opinion?

[afrayedknot]

I'm hoping that the movie will re-introduce patriotism and morality to America. Sadly, we've lost the sense of both.

[Ronny Shade]

I'm hoping that the movie will re-introduce patriotism and morality to America. Sadly, we've lost the sense of both.
I hope not.

I want it to be a critique on patriotism.

Somebody once said that Clark Kent was Superman's critique of humanity. So I was wondering what if they did something similar in the upcoming movie. Captain America or Steve Rogers more so is supposed to represent everything that is good about America or an American citizen. Strong moral values, brave, steadfast and patriotic.

Now, when Rogers finds himself in modern times he would most definitely see a very different United States. What if he sees that the nation has degraded, corruption and crime are everywhere. People no longer have strong morals and are willing to run like cowards at the slightest sign of danger. No longer the shining beacon it once was.

Would you like it if the question arises that what is Captain America fighting for? The old America which no longer exists or the new America which he cannot accept as it goes against what he believes in.

I'm not saying the the movie should be bogged down by social commentary but I think it would raise it above others in terms of storytelling.
A kind of journey of sorts where in the end Cap realizes that all is not lost and there is still hope. Your opinion?
This is similar to what I've long felt is what they should do.

[Aztec]

I hope not.

I want it to be a critique on patriotism.

Agreed. Patriotism is blind loyalty. I want an intelligent, morally complex discourse on what his role means in the year 2011.

[TheVileOne]

OK, while I get the whole shock to the system. Was Cap's America so much better in every way?

Back in the 40's, blacks were still considered second class citizens. Schools were still separated before the civil rights movement gained headway in the 50's. We put the Japanese in internment camps during the war, plus the whole Tuskegee thing. I mean the mainstream media has become a joke, and all that, and it's different. But I mean, why then do people talk about Obama as a symbol of how far we've come as a country? It's kind of like saying Cap would be ashamed of a country that would elect a guy who is bi-racial as president.

When I interviewed David Hayter (screenwriter of X-men, X-men 2, and Watchmen; also the former voice of animated Cap) here is what he said was his take on Cap:

David Hayter: Well you know Cap is to me, he's about purity. Purity of ideology, purity of identity, purity of citizenship. He represents the best of what America has to offer, and he's a great guy. I mean I personally prefer characters that are a little more twisted like Wolverine or Batman or whatever. But Captain America to me, that's like Marvel's Superman, you know? He's just the leader, if you want clarity, if you want ideological purity he's the one to go to, so I respect him for that. But at the same time, I don't respect him *laughs lightly* because you need to break the rules every now and again.

TVO: Do you think a character like Cap could still be relevant to maybe a global audience for a big budget, live action movie that Marvel Studios is very serious about making right now?

David Hayter: Yeah, but I think that the vision -- I think that Captain America has to reflect where America is at any given time. And the vision of America right now is tarnished. And if I were involved in the movie, I would want to see the movie reflect those questions and him [Cap] questioning his own identity in that context . . . He could certainly be relevant. I would just hate to see the movie become an excuse for America over-reaching, torture, whatever. You know to have Captain America shilling for the phone companies spying on you would be pretty disgusting to me. But if its a maligned Captain America looking at himself and saying, "What have I become and how do I fix this?" . . . "How do I reconcile the negative things about my country with the positive things about my country?" That's a worthwhile movie.

[RachelDawes]

It would be interesting if the next Captain America movie were about the limits of patriotism or some other equally deep topic, but Marvel doesn't seem to be going in that direction with their films. Spider-Man, Iron Man, and the Hulk movies were all rather light-hearted. Maybe Cap could break that streak, though.

[chiefchirpa]

Patriotism is a beginning to the end for the movie, especially in Int'l market. Captain America has to be about a service to Humanity, instead of blind Patriotism.

[The Question]

Yes, Captain America is about Patriotism (which I don't think it should be a critique of, as I don't think true patriotism is inherently blind loyalty). The film should be about American values and the American dream and all that. But it shouldn't be "The 40s were the ****, America has lost it's way." Cap's story, like the history of this country and the world, is not that black and white. Yes, there are a lot of things about the 21st century that are worse than the early 20th. But there are also a lot of better things as well. What Cap is all about is perspective. On how far we've come, as well as how much we've lost. In many ways, I see Captain America's story as a love letter to the 20th century, with all of it's triumphs and tragedies.

[bubbadoom]

Since the [first] Cap movie should be set entirely in the 1940's, I do not see how they could contrast that time with today; and if they do, I hope they don't get too heavy handed with it.

I do not want to see Marvel make the same mistake that Cannon Films did by bring Cap into the present in this movie [that's what the Avengers is for].

[aka Kal el]

Agreed. Patriotism is blind loyalty. I want an intelligent, morally complex discourse on what his role means in the year 2011.

Patriotism is NOT blind loyalty! It is believing in something greater than yourself and being willing to die for the sake of others! It is amazing how everyone forgets this until you need us to come save your sorry @#***.:whatever:

[aka Kal el]

Yes, Captain America is about Patriotism (which I don't think it should be a critique of, as I don't think true patriotism is inherently blind loyalty). The film should be about American values and the American dream and all that. But it shouldn't be "The 40s were the ****, America has lost it's way." Cap's story, like the history of this country and the world, is not that black and white. Yes, there are a lot of things about the 21st century that are worse than the early 20th. But there are also a lot of better things as well. What Cap is all about is perspective. On how far we've come, as well as how much we've lost. In many ways, I see Captain America's story as a love letter to the 20th century, with all of it's triumphs and tragedies.

Thank you! Well said!:word:

[aka Kal el]

:cmad:Patriotism is NOT blind loyalty! It is believing in something greater than yourself and being willing to die for the sake of others! It is amazing how everyone forgets this until you need us to come save your sorry @#***.

[Chris Wallace]

Somebody once said that Clark Kent was Superman's critique of humanity. So I was wondering what if they did something similar in the upcoming movie. Captain America or Steve Rogers more so is supposed to represent everything that is good about America or an American citizen. Strong moral values, brave, steadfast and patriotic.

Now, when Rogers finds himself in modern times he would most definitely see a very different United States. What if he sees that the nation has degraded, corruption and crime are everywhere. People no longer have strong morals and are willing to run like cowards at the slightest sign of danger. No longer the shining beacon it once was.

Would you like it if the question arises that what is Captain America fighting for? The old America which no longer exists or the new America which he cannot accept as it goes against what he believes in.

I'm not saying the the movie should be bogged down by social commentary but I think it would raise it above others in terms of storytelling.
A kind of journey of sorts where in the end Cap realizes that all is not lost and there is still hope. Your opinion?
Not bad, not bad.

[Doctor Jones]

David Hayter could write the script actually. He sounds really passionate about it.

[Ronny Shade]

I think Cap should see 2010 America and at first he should be like "**** this future america! It's all corrupt and evil! 40's america was way better" and then he should gradually realize...through fighting resurrected nazi supervillains and stuff that maybe 40's america wasn't so hot either. End of act 2: doesn't want to be Captain america anymore cause america was never what he thought it was...then he takes up the mantle again for act 3 becoming what america SHOULD be...the values, etc.

also, he should fight the government.

[Aztec]

Patriotism is NOT blind loyalty! It is believing in something greater than yourself and being willing to die for the sake of others!

Exactly. What you just described is BLIND LOYALTY. It's "greater than you" so believe it and trust that it is good. Oh, and when we ask you to, please be willing to die for it.

I don't want to change the nature of this debate, but there is a great historian by the name of Benedict Anderson who described 20th century patriotism in the West as the replacement for organized religion. As societies became increasingly secular people still wanted a "higher power" to believe in and that became their "Imagined Community" of a nation. Your nation is infallible, always on the side of right, and more powerful than you.

[Wesley Dodds]

I always kinda assumed that this was going to be the direction they take the Captain America movie anyway... I think nobody is more aware of how badly this movie could go wrong than Marvel Studios themselves.

[jab1118]

For Cap to be unfrozen and be pissed because how much america sucks now would have him be ignorent of the past. Sure some things are worse but most things in the country have become much better. I hate the way that people act like the past was a much simpler time where everyone was good because its not true. The farther you go back the crappier things were people ***** about Guantánamo Bay but in ww2 we were rounding up japenese in internment camps. Politicians were corrupt back then to probably more because there was less oversight. And to be honest experimenting a super soldier serum on your own citizens sounds like something Hitler came up with

[Aztec]

And to be honest experimenting a super soldier serum on your own citizens sounds like something Hitler came up with

So true. There was a great special on the History Channel about the origins of comic book heroes. One historian said that superheroes were ironic because they were a FASCIST response to the rise of fascism. The very ideas of taking what you want by force for the "greater good" (which is what superheroes do) or creating the "perfect man" are inherently fascist. A very strange irony indeed.

[tamron]

I think Cap should see 2010 America and at first he should be like "**** this future america! It's all corrupt and evil! 40's america was way better" and then he should gradually realize...through fighting resurrected nazi supervillains and stuff that maybe 40's america wasn't so hot either. End of act 2: doesn't want to be Captain america anymore cause america was never what he thought it was...then he takes up the mantle again for act 3 becoming what america SHOULD be...the values, etc.

also, he should fight the government.

Cap should always fight for what America should be. In the 40's and now. What he should do is look at today's world and hear people saying how it's so much better than his time (for example people saying Obama's victory makes us "post-racial"), and think 'okay, we've made progress, but we still haven't reached the ideals America is built upon".

[Rich Santoro]

The real arc of Cap has to do with the overwhelming, in-your-face struggle that he faced in WWII... contrasted to the the more intricate, subtle, and complex battles that are going on today. In the 40's (and certainly for the cannon of Cap), the struggle was for freedom and democracy in a macro sense... Today, it is a struggle in a micro-sense.

We want to see him catching up on things and seeing information on Watergate, the civil rights movement, Korea, Vietnam, the 60's, the cold war, the drug war, pop culture, the new market crash, gobs of civil liberties issues today, middle east stryfe for several decades... It all reminds him of the true grandness of the struggle for Freedom. After defeating the Axis, we did not simply see Utopia... Our Allies turned on us (Russia and China), we became allies with our enemies (Japan and Germany). The Middle East and South East Asia became a new threats. We intervened in regional disputes like Afganistan, Iran-Contra, the Sandinistas, Somalia, etc... using less noble covert, para-militay means... It widens his eyes, and he realizes that there were so many issues that he did not see in the face of WWII (civil rights issues, government corruption, abuse of power, international crisis, the overall events of our past that we should not be proud of... etc). He is forced to re-learn what America is...

Now, this "re-learning" would have to begin in the Avengers... but can be expanded in CA2 and even A2.

We journey back to the founding fathers with him... We revel in the greatness that we have acheived in truly historic moments... and we stoicly embrace our failures from today and throughout our history. He looks at what has come before and where things are now... He is truly awed by all that happenned, and how much has changed... and he is inspired. And now, he wants to be the agent a change that takes us to the next level... He wants to inspire others. He wants to push us closer to the ideals on which the nation was founded... for Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Cap should be a surrogate for us all.

[tamron]

The real arc of Cap has to do with the overwhelming, in-your-face struggle that he faced in WWII... contrasted to the the more intricate, subtle, and complex battles that are going on today. In the 40's (and certainly for the cannon of Cap), the struggle was for freedom and democracy in a macro sense... Today, it is a struggle in a micro-sense.

We want to see him catching up on things and seeing information on Watergate, the civil rights movement, Korea, Vietnam, the 60's, the cold war, the drug war, pop culture, the new market crash, gobs of civil liberties issues today, middle east stryfe for several decades... It all reminds him of the true grandness of the struggle for Freedom. After defeating the Axis, we did not simply see Utopia... Our Allies turned on us (Russia and China), we became allies with our enemies (Japan and Germany). The Middle East and South East Asia became a new threats. We intervened in regional disputes like Afganistan, Iran-Contra, the Sandinistas, Somalia, etc... using less noble covert, para-militay means... It widens his eyes, and he realizes that there were so many issues that he did not see in the face of WWII (civil rights issues, government corruption, abuse of power, international crisis, the overall events of our past that we should not be proud of... etc). He is forced to re-learn what America is...

Now, this "re-learning" would have to begin in the Avengers... but can be expanded in CA2 and even A2.

We journey back to the founding fathers with him... We revel in the greatness that we have acheived in truly historic moments... and we stoicly embrace our failures from today and throughout our history. He looks at what has come before and where things are now... He is truly awed by all that happenned, and how much has changed... and he is inspired. And now, he wants to be the agent a change that takes us to the next level... He wants to inspire others. He wants to push us closer to the ideals on which the nation was founded... for Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Cap should be a surrogate for us all.
:applaud:applaud:applaud:applaud

Bravo.

[Ronny Shade]

Cap should always fight for what America should be. In the 40's and now. What he should do is look at today's world and hear people saying how it's so much better than his time (for example people saying Obama's victory makes us "post-racial"), and think 'okay, we've made progress, but we still haven't reached the ideals America is built upon".
I'd like to give Cap some character development.

having him be right all the time is insufferably boring.

[Rich Santoro]

^ agreed... I would like to see him take a jouney on discovering what was, what is, and what can be, in regards to America and ideals of liberty as a whole. It can be a provocative tale of discovery and eprsonal growth.

[TheVileOne]

What I agree with Hayter about is Cap's purity. Cap is a character of pure moral fiber and conscious. He's above petty crap and he's an honorable man.

[Ronny Shade]

nobody's of "pure moral fiber"

[afrayedknot]

There is One . . .

[Rich Santoro]

nobody's of "pure moral fiber"

That is what is supposed to make him such a hero (not massive powers or high-technology... but awe-inspiring character beyond the human norm). Though I would like to seem him struggle with personal conflicts and realizations as the character developments.

[Ronny Shade]

bottom line characters of "pure moral fiber" are pretty boring.

[Rich Santoro]

bottom line characters of "pure moral fiber" are pretty boring.

Well first of all, whose morals are we talking about??? If Cap was opposed to gay marriage, because that is the "morals" of right-wing pentacostal types (if I have offended any pentacostals or right-wingers... good)... or are his morals based on the ideals of liberty and justice, as conceived by the founders based on Enlightenned thinking. That kind of moral basis can be very interesting subject matter... creating conflict, challenging personal convictions, and being inspirational... It is about writing a good story, and the character is just a vehicle.

[Ronny Shade]

I'd prefer something along the lines of Casey Affleck's character in Gone Baby Gone.

comes from a rough background, not always "in the right" but when he makes up his mind something is the right thing to do...nobody's stopping him from doing it.

[Rich Santoro]

^ that's good... So Cap's persona and story arc should probably not be about moral purity, but more about the discovery of the "right" thing... and a diehard dedication to seeing it done.

[Ronny Shade]

yes. keyword discovery.


you don't volunteer for a experimental genetic steroid if you're already sure of all the rights and wrongs

[Rich Santoro]

FTW :cwink:

[jab1118]

I would like to see them borrow a little bit from the new Bucky Captain America in the comics right now. I would like to see Cap dealing with the fact that he has become the symbol of america and be unsure if he can live up to that

[Spidey-Quad]

If Captain America was here, right now, he'd slap your face... All of you...

...only kidding. That would make him Cap n' Dark Knight or something.

I feel I can trust Marvel... as long as Fox is kept faaaaaaaaar away

[Bubastis]

I remember writing a fan draft outline in which part of the serum was a mind control formula that made him a super-heroic fighting machine, a live-action propaganda cartoon, transformed from the deathly skinny lost-identity immigrant that is Steve Rogers

And in mid-battle the mind serum wears off, and he and Bucky and a few others get taken to a concentration camp. Bucky is killed in front of Cap, and after escaping with teh help of some American soldiers, Rogers returns to America, estranged, just as lost as he was before. But on the news he hears a story about himself, described as a lost immigrant who came to America, became a hero, killed a lot of Nazis and saved a lot of people. It's then that he sees in himself a regular guy who came to a country in the arms of his family, looking for oppurtunity, and became a powerful, heroic force that gave hope and fought Nazis

The Red Skull was a lot more involved, too.

As long as the movie has something to say that brings optimism to the idea of the American dream without being propaganda, I could see this movie being really really good. If Johnston is handed a fantastic script and casts it and films it well, this could be even better than Iron Man.

[TheVileOne]

The movie is a Captain America movie, not Stop Loss 2.

[Ronny Shade]

I really like that bit about the brainwashing.


really a lot.

[GNR]

Somebody once said that Clark Kent was Superman's critique of humanity. So I was wondering what if they did something similar in the upcoming movie. Captain America or Steve Rogers more so is supposed to represent everything that is good about America or an American citizen. Strong moral values, brave, steadfast and patriotic.

Now, when Rogers finds himself in modern times he would most definitely see a very different United States. What if he sees that the nation has degraded, corruption and crime are everywhere. People no longer have strong morals and are willing to run like cowards at the slightest sign of danger. No longer the shining beacon it once was.

Would you like it if the question arises that what is Captain America fighting for? The old America which no longer exists or the new America which he cannot accept as it goes against what he believes in.

I'm not saying the the movie should be bogged down by social commentary but I think it would raise it above others in terms of storytelling.
A kind of journey of sorts where in the end Cap realizes that all is not lost and there is still hope. Your opinion?

HELL NO

Part of Cap's appeal is the fact that he was a skinny kid that came out of the Bronx with no money and no real future.He was one of "us" and that's the way it should be.

[Dark Phantom]

I really like that bit about the brainwashing.


really a lot.

You're really cyncial and bitter aren't you?

Honestly, while America has its dark history, the ideals that were instilled at its birth "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are admirable. What the Captain America movie should do is not critique what is wrong with the American country but reenforce optimisim of what it is capable of being. Captain America should be that symbol of freedom and purity that other countries, not just America, want to emulate. Otherwise, you can't expect this film to do very well overseas. This movie needs to speak to all audiences on a optimistic level while still remaining provocative.

[Nivek]

Cap is a true leader and hero, as soon as you put a spin on that, you have a character that is not really Captain America. That was one thing with the 90's Cap film, I felt that guy was too selfish and was just trying to hook up with his girlfriend.

[Bubastis]

Well the idea of the-washing idea was that it estranged him from the ideals and gung-ho feeligns towards america so that he could come back to them on his own.

[Slipeor]

I like the theme of Ultimate Cap where he is still a gung ho patriot, but society has changed and he has a hard time adapting. If they can borrow from that, but keep the essence of 616 Cap, I think it will make for a better story for the mainstream audience to relate to.

From what I have heard, the film will be more of a WW2 picture with an ending that sets up "The Avengers". I guess that allows for a longer origin and better use of the Red Skull, plus allow for the Avengers to find frozen Cap. But I think you need to focus on a WW2 patriotic mindset in modern times.

Imagine starting with the discovery of Cap frozen in ice by research scientists, the military, whatever. The credits are then done like Watchmen where newspaper headlines and newsreel footage show America and Germany trying to build "super soldiers". Then cut to frail Steve Rogers getting turned down for the army and volunteering for the super soldier program.

Now cut to an airplane with soliders about to drop into combat, talking about "him" in the back. Show Steve in an Ultimates-style military Cap uniform (basically, fatigues with the logo on the chest and a red white and blue helmet). Show his effect on morale and how he changes battle. My preference is that he doesn't use a gun, but it's not that important. You also need to show the general public rallying around the figure. From there he can move to the tranditional uniform.

At this point, you can either transition back to the future and use a flashback to show how he was frozen or move on to that directly. I guess the Red Skull needs to be introduced as well.

In the present, you can have the Red Skull as some sort of terrorist for hire. Or drop him and have a battle with the government over the rights to the Cap name/costume/rights etc. The film will probably have to end with Nick Fury and the Avengers (unless you have them find him in the first place).

But the theme that the audience will relate with is thei hardcore patriot coming back to a society that doesn't appreciate him, the military or even their own flag. What humanizes Cap is his struggle accepting this and trying to stay above all of the crap and be a hero and a symbol.

[Spideristic]

nobody's of "pure moral fiber"
True... so if a fictitious character is of pure moral fiber it would likely make him a unique character, something every similar to Superman.
bottom line characters of "pure moral fiber" are pretty boring.
I hear that a lot and I don't get it. Everybody in this world compromises morally at some point (heck.. many people compromise morally everyday). So how can the person with such strong moral values and convictions not be appealing? It's something most will never achieve in their lifetimes.

Dark, broken, conflicted is all the rage these days. Something bright, hopeful, inspiring is what I want to see, but it just seems to be very unreal for many.

That is what is supposed to make him such a hero (not massive powers or high-technology... but awe-inspiring character beyond the human norm). Though I would like to seem him struggle with personal conflicts and realizations as the character developments.

Captain America should be that symbol of freedom and purity that other countries, not just America, want to emulate.

But the theme that the audience will relate with is thei hardcore patriot coming back to a society that doesn't appreciate him, the military or even their own flag. What humanizes Cap is his struggle accepting this and trying to stay above all of the crap and be a hero and a symbol.
All great points. This is going to be one of the most challenging movie for Marvel to pull off and I hope they do a good job.