The Israel Situation

[Arkady Rossovich]

I can imagine the Democrats will stop communicating with Israel.

[SoulManX]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061117/sc_nm/mideast_weapons_dc

[War Lord]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061117/sc_nm/mideast_weapons_dc

That's a good thing. Lefties should be pleased.

[Mr Sparkle]

LOL, the possibilities for abuse of this technology are endless! just wait until the other side gets a hold of it.
Hijinks will follow!

[GoldenAgeHero]

the CIA already has this.

[The Overlord]

"Clashes have erupted between rival Palestinian factions after Hamas accused Fatah of trying to assassinate Prime Minister Ismail Haniya of Hamas.
Hamas accused a senior Fatah figure of organising an attack on Mr Haniya as he crossed into Gaza from Egypt.

Medical sources in the West Bank town of Ramallah said 32 people had been injured in clashes there. Fighting was also reported in Gaza City.

Mr Haniya called for calm and unity at a mass rally held in Gaza City.

Tens of thousands of supporters gathered in a Gaza City football stadium to mark the 19th anniversary of the founding of Hamas.

Hamas gunmen patrolled the streets of the city in a show of strength.

We did not join this movement to become ministers but rather to become martyrs

Ismail Haniya
Palestinian Prime Minister


Q&A: Palestinian crisis
Mr Haniya said Hamas had the names of those responsible and that the law would be used to bring them to justice.

But he vowed that the shooting would not frighten members of Hamas.

"We did not join this movement to become ministers but rather to become martyrs."

One bodyguard was killed and Mr Haniya's son was among five injured in Thursday's gun battle at the Rafah border crossing.

The BBC's Alan Johnston, in Gaza, says Mr Haniya struck a less strident tone than some, but there is every danger that the situation could get worse.

Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority (PA) president and head of Fatah, is due to speak on Saturday, and may call early elections in an effort to break the political deadlock between Fatah and Hamas.

Hamas has said it will boycott Mr Abbas' speech in protest at "dangerous and bloody" recent events.

Egyptian negotiators, who have mediated between Hamas and Fatah in the past, met Hamas on Friday in an effort to ease tensions.

Russia also called for the quarrelling factions to show restraint.

'Grave threat'

The violence in Ramallah on Friday flared as Hamas supporters attempted to march towards the centre of town but found the path blocked by Mr Abbas' security forces, reports said.


Ramallah residents condemn violance between Palestinian factions


In pictures

Fighting broke out, with hospital officials saying that at least 32 people were injured by gunfire and stone-throwing.

Shooting also erupted in Gaza City between masked Hamas gunmen and PA police allied to Fatah.

A Hamas spokesman had earlier said the Rafah attack was "an assassination attempt carried out by traitors led by Mohammad Dahlan".

Mr Dahlan, an ally of Mr Abbas, is a former Palestinian Authority security chief and a fierce critic of Hamas.

He rejected the Hamas accusations, saying the governing party was trying to "mask its failures".

A Fatah spokesman said the attack was a "grave threat" to Palestinian unity.

Chaotic scenes

Inter-faction tensions have increased since the killing of three sons of a pro-Fatah security chief on Monday.




In pictures: Rivals clash
Mr Haniya had tried to cut short his first trip abroad as prime minister to deal with the crisis.

But Israel on Thursday closed the Gaza border, saying the reported $30m (£15.3m) Mr Haniya was carrying in donations as he returned from his foreign trip would fund "terrorist operations".

When Mr Haniya eventually crossed late in the evening, without the money, guards allied to Fatah exchanged fire with Mr Haniya's security forces.

Hamas, a militant Islamic group, won elections in January, but has faced a Western aid boycott after refusing to renounce violence and recognise Israel."

Now the Palestinians have trying to create their state for some time, but how can we take their efforts seriously if they can't even get along with eachother. How are they supposed to make peace with Israel when they can't even make peace with themselves?

[Fenrir]

Personally, I think the U.S and Britain are a big bunch of morons for trying to bring Democracy to the Middle East. Everything we've seen suggests these people need someone ruling over them with an iron fist to have any kind of stability in the region. The very first thing these idiots will do with their new-found freedom is try to wipe each other off the face of the Earth. :down:

[thedeadite]

i agree with everything you say. Just because democracy works well in some places..doesn't mean it's the all mighty answer to everything and every country in the world. Societies need to evolve by themselves into democracy though want and need...not through force.

[Backdrifter]

Democracy won't work until they are sick of what they have, collectively and START their own.

[Kritish]

i agree with everything you say. Just because democracy works well in some places..doesn't mean it's the all mighty answer to everything and every country in the world. Societies need to evolve by themselves into democracy though want and need...not through force.

So what if the government over thier dictates that all women should be forced to wear burkkas?
I personally think those countries should be boycotted by the U.N.

[Fenrir]

So what if the government over thier dictates that all women should be forced to wear burkkas?

I'd rather have a government forcing women to wear burkas than a bunch of trigger-happy, power-hungry jackasses killing each other in the vaccum of power resulting from a democracy. I mean, it's a choice between oppression and senseless murder. How can anyone not see the obvious pick here? :confused:

[Kritish]

I'd rather have a government forcing women to wear burkas than a bunch of trigger-happy, power-hungry jackasses killing each other in the vaccum of power resulting from a democracy. I mean, it's a choice between oppression and senseless murder. How can anyone not see the obvious pick here? :confused:

The middle east is a crap hole, maybe if we (as in the civilized nations, not the whities) wait they will all kill each other and leave the oil for us.:yay:

[Kaleb]

Look at the young men dying,look at the children crying...

[Kritish]

Nobody has any avatars...

Morg is crazy...

[Kaleb]

I never had any to begin with,I think I just beat morg at his own game.

[The Overlord]

So what if the government over thier dictates that all women should be forced to wear burkkas?
I personally think those countries should be boycotted by the U.N.

People will always prefer systematic violence to randomized violence.

[comicgirl]

Israeli president requests leave of absence
Facing rape allegations, Katsav asks parliament for temporary removal

JERUSALEM - Israeli President Moshe Katsav asked parliament on Wednesday to temporarily remove him from office after Israel’s attorney general recommended that he be indicted on rape and other charges.

Under Israeli law, a Knesset committee would have to approve any leave of absence, according to parliamentary spokesman Giora Pordes, who announced Katsav’s request.

Katsav’s relatively quiet presidency was rocked last summer when one of his female employees accused him of forcing her to have sex in his office. Other women came forward with similar accusations, painting the picture of a politician who had abused his power for years.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16768688/

Oh, boy. Nasty nasty. Could you imagine the firestorm this would cause in the US? Ugh. So, think he did it?http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070124/070124_katzav_hmed_3a.hmedium.jpg

[Darthphere]

Shocking!

[Kaleb]

He did alright, there is so strong evidence pointing to it

[Darthphere]

Its not rape if they wanted it.

[Kaleb]

that is tru , I mean power is an Aphrodisiac (spelling? )

[jaguarr]

Why couldn't it have been Bush? :csad:

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

I'm guessing it was :confused:

[jaguarr]

I'm guessing it was :confused:

Stop trying to cheer me up. :(

jag

[Spider-Bite]

I'm really curious if he did it. These allegations could be politically motivated.
Either way this isn't good for the U.S. or Israel. Were already loosing the public relations war, which basically equates to loosing the war on terror.

[comicgirl]

I'm really curious if he did it. These allegations could be politically motivated.
Either way this isn't good for the U.S. or Israel. Were already loosing the public relations war, which basically equates to loosing the war on terror.I wonder if any of the accusers have.....actual evidence of relations.

[Kritish]

I want one. (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=26F8D3E96979057B2627FD1408023128)

[Matt]

So it is revealed how this prophecy will come to pass:

http://members.aol.com/mentobahamut/optimusjew.jpg

[bored]

So it is revealed how this prophecy will come to pass:

http://members.aol.com/mentobahamut/optimusjew.jpg


Fun fact: his real full name is Zalman Optimus Priminsky.

[tomahawk53]

Look out Sarah Conner

[bell110]

Seriously. For years, I've been reading, trying to find some logical justification for us to support them. I can't. But for some reason, it's this HUGE issue politically that we MUST support them. Why?

[SuperFerret]

The U.S. had a hand in creating Israel I think. Plus, they are our ally, and we support them for that (however stupid it may be at times).

[redfirebird2008]

Can of worms...opened. Nice. LOL.

[odiin]

Well, we don't want to look like anti-semites, do we? I mean does it really matter how many questionable things they do as long as WE don't look like racists?

[redfirebird2008]

Well, we don't want to look like anti-semites, do we? I mean does it really matter how many questionable things they do as long as WE don't look like racists?

Judaism is not a race, it's a religion. So what you meant is so that we don't look like bigots. That's not really it entirely. There was certainly a lot of guilt and sympathy associated with Israel's creation. However, as a mostly Christian country and with Presidents that are always Christian, I think the agenda sympathizes more with Judaism (and consequently Israel) than with Islam (and consequently Palestine) because Judaism and Christianity both revere the Old Testament and are closely associated religions. The other factor of course is that Islamo-fascists were responsible for 9/11. That makes it even more difficult for many to side with the Palestinians.

[bell110]

Judaism is not a race, it's a religion. So what you meant is so that we don't look like bigots. That's not really it entirely. There was certainly a lot of guilt and sympathy associated with Israel's creation. However, as a mostly Christian country and with Presidents that are always Christian, I think the agenda sympathizes more with Judaism (and consequently Israel) than with Islam (and consequently Palestine) because Judaism and Christianity both revere the Old Testament and are closely associated religions. The other factor of course is that Islamo-fascists were responsible for 9/11. That makes it even more difficult for many to side with the Palestinians.

And that's the sad irony really, because they attacked us partially BECAUSE we support Israel.

[The Senator]

Because the Jewish people have been persecuted long throughout the history of the world. Because for centuries, there were few places a Jew could live without the risk of being brutally murdered, en masse, by those they lived amongst. Be it Russia two hundred years ago, to Germany and Eastern Europe seventy years ago, the Jewish people have been scapegoated by other cultures as being the root of all evil.

Israel was created to give Jews a homeland-- a country where they could live without the fear of bring crushed by the societies they lived amongst. We, the United States, helped form Israel as a way to give the Jewish people the freedom we ourselves once sought.

Regardless of our politics, we have a responsibility to support these people. The Jewish people are a fundamentally good people. They live and breathe and bleed like all of us. In the past sixty years, Israel has become a country on its own, where millions live and operate in their everyday lives.

Yet, hate-filled terrorists like that scumbag Mahmoud Ahmadinejad feel its justified to wipe Israel off the map because they kicked the Palestinians away from their homeland. The Palestinians were screwed. But it was an unfortunate occurrence which our generation has no control over. What are we going to do now, destroy a nation we helped build so we can prove the Islamo-Fascists that we want to please them? What's the rational argument we have now? "Oh, we don't want to be attacked anymore... here, have Israel to yourselves, guys!"

I think a Palestinian state is long overdue. But I think Israel warrants our protection and our resources. I have many Jewish friends. My boyfriend is Jewish. One of my friends is an Israeli-American with dual citizenship. I know the plight many of these folks have dealt with, not throughout history, but currently.

When I hear stories of Palestinian terrorists lobbing rockets into residential communities, killing innocent civilians which had nothing to do with their exile, that's proof enough that Israel deserves our protection. When I hear of Palestinian terrorists strapping bombs to their chests and blowing up buses or marketplaces, that alone merits our protection and our support. Israel has become a scapegoat to the terrorists who inhabit the Middle East. It is our responsibility to prove that Democracy and religious freedom is prevalent over all else. It is our duty to protect a people who have become history's punching bag.

If Israel is annihilated by those nutjobs in the Middle East, I for one advocate a complete nuclear assault on the entire Middle East.

[The Senator]

Well, we don't want to look like anti-semites, do we? I mean does it really matter how many questionable things they do as long as WE don't look like racists?

Excuse me.

The Jewish people have been treated like crap throughout history.

They have been ethnically cleansed. Imprisoned for being Jewish. Killed for being Jewish. Scapegoated by entire nations.

And because they defend themselves, or fight off the Palestinian extremists who have been attacking them since the dawn of time, suddenly Israel is doing questionable things?

What about the suicide bombings? Or the rockets? Or how about the fact that a handful of world leaders want to see this country and the people who inhabit it wiped off the map?

Because you know, when a Palestinian terrorist lobs a mortar into Tel Aviv, that isn't questionable at all. Or when a mother straps an IED to her daughter and sends her into an Israeli school to kill a bunch of innocent kids, that's not questionable at all.

Nope. Not one bit :whatever:

[Addendum]

Well, we don't want to look like anti-semites, do we? I mean does it really matter how many questionable things they do as long as WE don't look like racists?

There's a HUUUUUUUGE difference between hating the Jewish people for whatever infantile reason a person "thinks" up (antisemitism) and not going along with every single political decision and/or action the nation of Israel makes or takes. The latter is called "using your mind" or "being a thinking, rational person", or "politics"

Unless you consider an individual that doesn't go along with every single political decision or action of the US to be "unamerican"

[SurfDUI]

ALOT of people have been made slaves and persecuted and have had attempts to wipe them off the earth. Mass genocides still prevail today. The Jewish are different cause they have financial capital in terms of a country and there dealings w/ the U.S. OR Israel WEST as the U.S. is called.

Were so deep into them we'll never shake their ties. Additionally when you feel the creator is 'on your side', despite still having not ran into 'the real' Messiah at this point in history.

The Jewish in Israel have taken as much land as they want so there Palestenian problems are predicated on that.

They want there cake and eat it too.

[redfirebird2008]

Excuse me.

The Jewish people have been treated like crap throughout history.

They have been ethnically cleansed. Imprisoned for being Jewish. Killed for being Jewish. Scapegoated by entire nations.

And because they defend themselves, or fight off the Palestinian extremists who have been attacking them since the dawn of time, suddenly Israel is doing questionable things?

What about the suicide bombings? Or the rockets? Or how about the fact that a handful of world leaders want to see this country and the people who inhabit it wiped off the map?

Because you know, when a Palestinian terrorist lobs a mortar into Tel Aviv, that isn't questionable at all. Or when a mother straps an IED to her daughter and sends her into an Israeli school to kill a bunch of innocent kids, that's not questionable at all.

Nope. Not one bit :whatever:

They've been fighting since both religions were founded and it's not all one-sided to just the Palestinians. Both are wrong in my opinion. It's a classic case of stubbornness, but then again they both refuse to compromise because then they would feel they're compromising the religion itself by abandoning God's intent for them. And of course, they both feel that God's intent was for them to have that land 100% for themselves so round and round it goes probably until the end of time. :(

[Memphis Slim]

Because the Jewish people have been persecuted long throughout the history of the world. Because for centuries, there were few places a Jew could live without the risk of being brutally murdered, en masse, by those they lived amongst. Be it Russia two hundred years ago, to Germany and Eastern Europe seventy years ago, the Jewish people have been scapegoated by other cultures as being the root of all evil.

Israel was created to give Jews a homeland-- a country where they could live without the fear of bring crushed by the societies they lived amongst. We, the United States, helped form Israel as a way to give the Jewish people the freedom we ourselves once sought.

Regardless of our politics, we have a responsibility to support these people. The Jewish people are a fundamentally good people. They live and breathe and bleed like all of us. In the past sixty years, Israel has become a country on its own, where millions live and operate in their everyday lives.

Yet, hate-filled terrorists like that scumbag Mahmoud Ahmadinejad feel its justified to wipe Israel off the map because they kicked the Palestinians away from their homeland. The Palestinians were screwed. But it was an unfortunate occurrence which our generation has no control over. What are we going to do now, destroy a nation we helped build so we can prove the Islamo-Fascists that we want to please them? What's the rational argument we have now? "Oh, we don't want to be attacked anymore... here, have Israel to yourselves, guys!"

I think a Palestinian state is long overdue. But I think Israel warrants our protection and our resources. I have many Jewish friends. My boyfriend is Jewish. One of my friends is an Israeli-American with dual citizenship. I know the plight many of these folks have dealt with, not throughout history, but currently.

When I hear stories of Palestinian terrorists lobbing rockets into residential communities, killing innocent civilians which had nothing to do with their exile, that's proof enough that Israel deserves our protection. When I hear of Palestinian terrorists strapping bombs to their chests and blowing up buses or marketplaces, that alone merits our protection and our support. Israel has become a scapegoat to the terrorists who inhabit the Middle East. It is our responsibility to prove that Democracy and religious freedom is prevalent over all else. It is our duty to protect a people who have become history's punching bag.

If Israel is annihilated by those nutjobs in the Middle East, I for one advocate a complete nuclear assault on the entire Middle East.
Israel has nukes.....they will not let that happen.

I suport everything you just said.

[SurfDUI]

They've been fighting since both religions were founded and it's not all one-sided to just the Palestinians. Both are wrong in my opinion. It's a classic case of stubbornness, but then again they both refuse to compromise because then they would feel they're compromising the religion itself by abandoning God's intent for them. And of course, they both feel that God's intent was for them to have that land 100% for themselves :(


Hell yes
& in the meantime were here paying for that war too.:cmad:

[Matt]

I don't mind supporting Israel, but I do not like the way they use us as their sword. They will pick fights simply because they know we support them. It hurts us more than it helps us.

[PemLam]

I don't mind supporting Israel, but I do not like the way they use us as their sword. They will pick fights simply because they know we support them. It hurts us more than it helps us.

That's party true, but they also "pick fights" because they have arguably the most highly trained military (specifically their Special Forces and Air Force) in the world.

Not to mention they have nuclear weapons and have clearly stated if they were in fear of being overrun (literally) and no one stepped in to help, that they would turn most of the Middle East into a glass parking lot.

Edit: ...and we use them as much as they use us...i.e. the bombing of the Iranian nuclear power plant many years ago.

[lazur]

And that's the sad irony really, because they attacked us partially BECAUSE we support Israel.

So what you're saying is that we should stop supporting Israel because extremists attacked us for giving our support?

Does that mean that if someone attacks us for supporting Canada, for example, we should just ... stop supporting Canada?

I'm not following your argument here...

[bell110]

Because the Jewish people have been persecuted long throughout the history of the world. Because for centuries, there were few places a Jew could live without the risk of being brutally murdered, en masse, by those they lived amongst. Be it Russia two hundred years ago, to Germany and Eastern Europe seventy years ago, the Jewish people have been scapegoated by other cultures as being the root of all evil.

But the Palestinians shouldn't have to suffer because of that.

Israel was created to give Jews a homeland-- a country where they could live without the fear of bring crushed by the societies they lived amongst. We, the United States, helped form Israel as a way to give the Jewish people the freedom we ourselves once sought.

The problem with that quote:

1. They could live in America and share in our freedom.
2. They want to live without fear of being crushed by societies they live amongst, so ironically, they choose to live in an area of the world where all their neighbors hate them and want to "wipe them off the map".

And that's my whole problem with Israel. They believe that the Jews are Gods choosen people, God gave them that land, and **** anybody else. That's pretty arrogant, and I hate arrogance.

Regardless of our politics, we have a responsibility to support these people. The Jewish people are a fundamentally good people. They live and breathe and bleed like all of us. In the past sixty years, Israel has become a country on its own, where millions live and operate in their everyday lives.

Yet, hate-filled terrorists like that scumbag Mahmoud Ahmadinejad feel its justified to wipe Israel off the map because they kicked the Palestinians away from their homeland. The Palestinians were screwed. But it was an unfortunate occurrence which our generation has no control over. What are we going to do now, destroy a nation we helped build so we can prove the Islamo-Fascists that we want to please them? What's the rational argument we have now? "Oh, we don't want to be attacked anymore... here, have Israel to yourselves, guys!"

Palestinians are fundametally good people as well. But we are keeping them down to help prop the Israelies up. I believe they have every right to take their land back.

I think a Palestinian state is long overdue. But I think Israel warrants our protection and our resources. I have many Jewish friends. My boyfriend is Jewish. One of my friends is an Israeli-American with dual citizenship. I know the plight many of these folks have dealt with, not throughout history, but currently.

When I hear stories of Palestinian terrorists lobbing rockets into residential communities, killing innocent civilians which had nothing to do with their exile, that's proof enough that Israel deserves our protection. When I hear of Palestinian terrorists strapping bombs to their chests and blowing up buses or marketplaces, that alone merits our protection and our support. Israel has become a scapegoat to the terrorists who inhabit the Middle East. It is our responsibility to prove that Democracy and religious freedom is prevalent over all else. It is our duty to protect a people who have become history's punching bag.

If Israel is annihilated by those nutjobs in the Middle East, I for one advocate a complete nuclear assault on the entire Middle East.

If someone drove me from my home because they say God gave them that land, I'd shoot rockets at them too. And the Israelies are just as much terrorist as the Palestinians, yet our government just shakes our finger at them. And that's pretty sad that you would justify killing EVERYBODY in the middle east just for Israel.

[bell110]

That's party true, but they also "pick fights" because they have arguably the most highly trained military (specifically their Special Forces and Air Force) in the world.

Not to mention they have nuclear weapons and have clearly stated if they were in fear of being overrun (literally) and no one stepped in to help, that they would turn most of the Middle East into a glass parking lot.

Edit: ...and we use them as much as they use us...i.e. the bombing of the Iranian nuclear power plant many years ago.

Yeah, I like their, "If we can't have this land, no one can" attitude. And people say Islamo-fascists are crazy.

[bell110]

So what you're saying is that we should stop supporting Israel because extremists attacked us for giving our support?

Does that mean that if someone attacks us for supporting Canada, for example, we should just ... stop supporting Canada?

I'm not following your argument here...

It's funny, because I remember Bush going around saying, "We have to find the root cause of why they attack us", when the answer is pretty obvious.

If the people native to Canada decided to overtake the government, yes we shouldn't get involved because it's none of our business.

Now, imagine the Mexican-Americans in in SoCal declaring, "We are now the independent nation of Meximarica. All non-Mexican-Americans have to get out." I don't think many Americans would support them. Now what if, as we are preparing to take SoCal back, China stood up and said, "We support Meximarica. Any attack on Meximerica is an attack on China.", And then gave Meximarica nukes to defend itsself. What would your reaction be?

[Superman4ever]

If Israel is annihilated by those nutjobs in the Middle East, I for one advocate a complete nuclear assault on the entire Middle East.

You sound just as nutty and radical as the people you condemn. The WHOLE Mid-east?

[The Senator]

But the Palestinians shouldn't have to suffer because of that.



The problem with that quote:

1. They could live in America and share in our freedom.
2. They want to live without fear of being crushed by societies they live amongst, so ironically, they choose to live in an area of the world where all their neighbors hate them and want to "wipe them off the map".

And that's my whole problem with Israel. They believe that the Jews are Gods choosen people, God gave them that land, and **** anybody else. That's pretty arrogant, and I hate arrogance.



Palestinians are fundametally good people as well. But we are keeping them down to help prop the Israelies up. I believe they have every right to take their land back.



If someone drove me from my home because they say God gave them that land, I'd shoot rockets at them too. And the Israelies are just as much terrorist as the Palestinians, yet our government just shakes our finger at them. And that's pretty sad that you would justify killing EVERYBODY in the middle east just for Israel.

So, do the Native Americans have a right to take the United States back?

After all, we came over and stole their land as well. If Native Americans started sending their children into our schools and blowing up our children, would you say that's justified?

Should we give California and the entire Southwest back to Mexico? After all, we came over and murdered the Mexicans and stole their land as well, because it was God's wish for us to have all the land between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. If the Mexicans declared something equivalent to Jihad on our country, you'd say that's justified, right?

The Palestinians ought to get over it. There's nothing this current generation can do to get that land back. Same thing with the Israelis. Instead of lobbing rockets into residential neighborhoods or murdering innocent children, the Palestinians ought to act like reasonable adults and sit down with the Israelis and work out a compromise. But instead, they've resorted to terrorist tactics, proving that they really don't deserve pity from the rest of the world.

[The Senator]

You sound just as nutty and radical as the people you condemn. The WHOLE Mid-east?

Well not the whole Mid East, but every country within the Mid East which sponsors, supports, and participates in the annihilation of Israel.

[lazur]

It's funny, because I remember Bush going around saying, "We have to find the root cause of why they attack us", when the answer is pretty obvious.

If the people native to Canada decided to overtake the government, yes we shouldn't get involved because it's none of our business.

Now, imagine the Mexican-Americans in in SoCal declaring, "We are now the independent nation of Meximarica. All non-Mexican-Americans have to get out." I don't think many Americans would support them. Now what if, as we are preparing to take SoCal back, China stood up and said, "We support Meximarica. Any attack on Meximerica is an attack on China.", And then gave Meximarica nukes to defend itsself. What would your reaction be?

I think your analogy is misdirected. 'The Land of Israel' has existed for about 3,000 years. The only subject up for debate is where, exactly, its borders are, and that's primarily the reason for much of the fighting between Palestine and Israel.

In terms of our country and California, in particular, it's not even close to the same thing. The state of California is 'owned' by the US government. If China were to be that dumb, then I guess the nukes would be flying because China's actions would effectively be a direct attack on our land and our sovereignty.

[Superman4ever]

So, do the Native Americans have a right to take the United States back?

After all, we came over and stole their land as well. If Native Americans started sending their children into our schools and blowing up our children, would you say that's justified?

Should we give California and the entire Southwest back to Mexico? After all, we came over and murdered the Mexicans and stole their land as well, because it was God's wish for us to have all the land between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. If the Mexicans declared something equivalent to Jihad on our country, you'd say that's justified, right?

The Palestinians ought to get over it. There's nothing this current generation can do to get that land back. Same thing with the Israelis. Instead of lobbing rockets into residential neighborhoods or murdering innocent children, the Palestinians ought to act like reasonable adults and sit down with the Israelis and work out a compromise. But instead, they've resorted to terrorist tactics, proving that they really don't deserve pity from the rest of the world.

Get over something that happened under 60 years ago and for which they continue to feel? You do realize that land is STILL being stolen. Land in which Palestinians have papers for which are recognized by the UN.

You act as if this is ALL the Palestinians' fault that Israel's aggression has no merit as being considered out of order or aggressive. There are more than 100 UN resolutions against Israel for over aggressive and unlawful tactics...that is MORE THAN ANY OTHER NATION ON EARTH. (http://www.uscrusade.com/forum/config.pl/noframes/read/1372)

65 from 1955-92 (http://www.musalman.com/news/musalman-UN%20resolutions%20against%20Israel.htm)

EVERY single one vetoed by the US. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html)
http://www.actionforunrenew.ndo.co.uk/pages/isreal_un_resolutions.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_P alestine
http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html

[The Senator]

Get over something that happened under 60 years ago and for which they continue to feel? You do realize that land is STILL being stolen. Land in which Palestinians have papers for which are recognized by the UN.

You act as if this is ALL the Palestinians' fault that Israel's aggression has no merit as being considered out of order or aggressive. There are more than 100 UN resolutions against Israel for over aggressive and unlawful tactics...that is MORE THAN ANY OTHER NATION ON EARTH. (http://www.uscrusade.com/forum/config.pl/noframes/read/1372)

65 from 1955-92 (http://www.musalman.com/news/musalman-UN%20resolutions%20against%20Israel.htm)

EVERY single one vetoed by the US. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html)
http://www.actionforunrenew.ndo.co.uk/pages/isreal_un_resolutions.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_P alestine
http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html

Um.... I don't care?

[bell110]

So, do the Native Americans have a right to take the United States back?

After all, we came over and stole their land as well. If Native Americans started sending their children into our schools and blowing up our children, would you say that's justified?

Should we give California and the entire Southwest back to Mexico? After all, we came over and murdered the Mexicans and stole their land as well, because it was God's wish for us to have all the land between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. If the Mexicans declared something equivalent to Jihad on our country, you'd say that's justified, right?

Good point. Yes, at the time they were completely justified with coming into American villages and killing it's residence. After over the 200 years we've been a country, we've reconciled with them. And it wouldn't be in there best interest to take back their land. But really, maybe America would become a better country if we had Native American leaders.

The Israelis and Palestinians on the other hand have not, and probably will never, reconcile. Neither of them benefit from the others presence. And there are Palestinians alive today who were forcefully removed from their homes.

The Palestinians ought to get over it. There's nothing this current generation can do to get that land back. Same thing with the Israelis. Instead of lobbing rockets into residential neighborhoods or murdering innocent children, the Palestinians ought to act like reasonable adults and sit down with the Israelis and work out a compromise. But instead, they've resorted to terrorist tactics, proving that they really don't deserve pity from the rest of the world.

That's like telling Holocaust survivors to just "get over it". The Israelis should just "get over" being bombed constantly, concidering it's their fault they are in that predicament. And it kind of bugs me that people point out all the ****ed up things Palestinians do, but down play the ****ed up things Israel does. Israel is no where near more innocent than Palestinians when it comes to terrorism.

I just don't see how anyone can put aside political or religious ideologies, and just look at the situation from a human standpoint, and still support Israel.

[StorminNorman]

Get over something that happened under 60 years ago and for which they continue to feel? You do realize that land is STILL being stolen. Land in which Palestinians have papers for which are recognized by the UN.

You act as if this is ALL the Palestinians' fault that Israel's aggression has no merit as being considered out of order or aggressive. There are more than 100 UN resolutions against Israel for over aggressive and unlawful tactics...that is MORE THAN ANY OTHER NATION ON EARTH. (http://www.uscrusade.com/forum/config.pl/noframes/read/1372)

65 from 1955-92 (http://www.musalman.com/news/musalman-UN%20resolutions%20against%20Israel.htm)

EVERY single one vetoed by the US. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html)
http://www.actionforunrenew.ndo.co.uk/pages/isreal_un_resolutions.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_P alestine
http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html

You do realize that Israel's Arab Neighbors occupy as much, if not more "Palestinian" land than Israel does, yes? Let see them get out of the good of Palestine.

Plus, Palestine waged war against Israel with its Arab neighbors after Israel was established. Palestine and its allies lost, badly. In world history, the lost of a war often means a lost in territory.

[Superman4ever]

Um.... I don't care?

Good so then you have NO moral authority to criticize anyone who states they don't care about the Israelis.

It's irresponsible and completely deluded. Not surprising though considering your previously ridiculous remarks.

I don't want Israel to go anywhere, but that type of radical extremist thinking will never lead anywhere and is immature.

[The Senator]

Good point. Yes, at the time they were completely justified with coming into American villages and killing it's residence. After over the 200 years we've been a country, we've reconciled with them. And it wouldn't be in there best interest to take back their land. But really, maybe America would become a better country if we had Native American leaders.

The Israelis and Palestinians on the other hand have not, and probably will never, reconcile. Neither of them benefit from the others presence. And there are Palestinians alive today who were forcefully removed from their homes.

There are still Native Americans in the United States which feel they should be given all of their land back.

What we did to the Native Americans can be considered more atrocious than what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians. After all, we murdered Native Americans before they gave their land to us. We sent them thousands of miles to a piss-ant reserve in the middle of nowhere. Our crimes are forgiven just because we reconciled?

Yet, the Palestinians and the Israelis will never reconcile. But you support giving Israel back to the Palestinians, even though there is an entire generation of people in Israel which were born there who had no control over what happened at the end of World War II? Isn't that a double standard?

It's wrong to kick the Palestinians off their land, but it's completely acceptable to kick the Israelis off the same land?

Not to mention, the land which was occupied by the Palestinians was once occupied by the Israelis for centuries, until the Israelis were forced from their land.


That's like telling Holocaust survivors to just "get over it". The Israelis should just "get over" being bombed constantly, concidering it's their fault they are in that predicament. And it kind of bugs me that people point out all the ****ed up things Palestinians do, but down play the ****ed up things Israel does. Israel is no where near more innocent than Palestinians when it comes to terrorism.

I just don't see how anyone can put aside political or religious ideologies, and just look at the situation from a human standpoint, and still support Israel.

Now you're comparing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the Holocaust?! :huh:

It's nowhere near comparable. The Jews were explicitly targeted for being Jewish, blamed for all the world's problems, confined to overcrowded ghettos, then shipped to a labor camp where they either worked themselves to death or were executed. The Palestinians were kicked off their land, and that's about where it ends. The Israelis haven't rounded up Palestinians, sent them to work because they felt they were inferior, then gassed or shot them.

That's one of the most absurd comparisons I've read on these boards yet :up:

[Superman4ever]

You do realize that Israel's Arab Neighbors occupy as much, if not more "Palestinian" land than Israel does, yes? Let see them get out of the good of Palestine.

Plus, Palestine waged war against Israel with its Arab neighbors after Israel was established. Palestine and its allies lost, badly. In world history, the lost of a war often means a lost in territory.

But it also means the continuing, illegal loss of land 40 years after by illegal and cruel occupation?

[bell110]

I think your analogy is misdirected. 'The Land of Israel' has existed for about 3,000 years. The only subject up for debate is where, exactly, its borders are, and that's primarily the reason for much of the fighting between Palestine and Israel.

In terms of our country and California, in particular, it's not even close to the same thing. The state of California is 'owned' by the US government. If China were to be that dumb, then I guess the nukes would be flying because China's actions would effectively be a direct attack on our land and our sovereignty.

No, the land of Israel has been gone for a long time. After a few millenia, you have no right to claim that land as yours. They only think there is a land of Israel because God said so.

[Superman4ever]

The Palestinians were kicked off their land, and that's about where it ends. The Israelis haven't rounded up Palestinians, sent them to work because they felt they were inferior, then gassed or shot them.

That's one of the most absurd comparisons I've read on these boards yet :up:

Yet, if you cared, but since you don't, you would have discovered UN resolutions condemning Israel "mass arrests, killings and gatherings". Moreover, deplorable "repressive measures".

But since you don't care.

szp7hXBuTCw

[Superman4ever]

Not to mention, the land which was occupied by the Palestinians was once occupied by the Israelis for centuries, until the Israelis were forced from their land.



OMG! LMAO. You're talking about an exodus that happened 3000 years ago, but then have the audacity to use a silly analogy for the return of land to the Mexicans and Native Americans?

So, do the Native Americans have a right to take the United States back?

After all, we came over and stole their land as well. If Native Americans started sending their children into our schools and blowing up our children, would you say that's justified?

Should we give California and the entire Southwest back to Mexico? After all, we came over and murdered the Mexicans and stole their land as well, because it was God's wish for us to have all the land between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. If the Mexicans declared something equivalent to Jihad on our country, you'd say that's justified, right?

[The Senator]

I don't care because the UN has proved itself to be an ineffective, overly biased institution which has been given way too much credit. There is an overwhelming bias against the Jewish people in that institution. Meanwhile, African countries which have conducted worse atrocities, such as the Sudanese Government and the government of Zimbabwe, aren't considered worse than Israel? The Sudanese government is sponsoring the murder and ethnic cleansing of those in the Darfur region. Yet they aren't considered worse than Israel? Isn't that a bit... wrong?

The mass arrests done by the Israelis is upsetting. They need to be addressed. There are additional problems within the Israeli government which needs to be addressed as well, namely the co-sponsoring of terrorism against the Palestinian people. I don't deny that these issues exist. But these are actions of the Israeli government, not the Israeli people. And to me, that is not justification for exiling them off the land which they currently occupy.

The Palestinians have no problem attacking the Israelis for stealing their land, but as SN mentioned, they haven't confronted the surrounding Arab/ Muslim nations with as much vitriol as they have Israel. The Palestinians could easily work something out with Saudi Arabia or another neighboring country to carve a substantial Palestinian state which borders the Holy Land. Why don't they do that? They'll have better luck if they did it that way, in theory.

[Superman4ever]

I don't care because the UN has proved itself to be an ineffective, overly biased institution which has been given way too much credit.

I stopped right there. The UN CREATED Israel. UN Resolution 181 for the partition of the land.

[The Senator]

OMG! LMAO. You're talking about an exodus that happened 3000 years ago, but then have the audacity to use a silly analogy for the return of land to the Mexicans and Native Americans?

How is that audacious? They're similar situations. Are you saying it's justified to kick the Israelis off their land because sixty years have passed? But it's not okay to kick all of us out of America because two hundred years have passed? And that it's not okay to acknowledge that tensions in the Middle East over that one region have existed for centuries?

What's the justification for ignoring the Native Americans' plight, but making the Palestinian plight so prominent?

"Oh, no, we can't give the United States back to the Native Americans. I'm sorry, but too much time has passed. You should have confronted us during the 1860s if you wanted your land back. You're just not relevant anymore."

Doesn't make sense to me.

[The Senator]

I stopped right there. The UN CREATED Israel. UN Resolution 181 for the partition of the land.

Yep, and since then, they have been keen to criticize them for just about everything under the sun, while they've been willing to overlook atrocities in other nations. Why haven't they condemned China for their human rights abuses? Where's the condemnation there? Yet Israel is worse than China?

Again, it doesn't make sense to me.

[bell110]

There are still Native Americans in the United States which feel they should be given all of their land back.

What we did to the Native Americans can be considered more atrocious than what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians. After all, we murdered Native Americans before they gave their land to us. We sent them thousands of miles to a piss-ant reserve in the middle of nowhere. Our crimes are forgiven just because we reconciled?

Yet, the Palestinians and the Israelis will never reconcile. But you support giving Israel back to the Palestinians, even though there is an entire generation of people in Israel which were born there who had no control over what happened at the end of World War II? Isn't that a double standard?

I'm not saying our crimes are forgiven, but we have reconciled. I'm in support of doing what is best for America, and supporting Israel is not what's best for America. If they found a way to get along, fine. I don't think we should be helping them though. If they want to live in a part of the world where EVERYBODY hates them, they should fight their own battles. I'm not particularly FOR Palestinians, I'm just empythising with them, and I'm just not too concerned if Israel exists.

It's wrong to kick the Palestinians off their land, but it's completely acceptable to kick the Israelis off the same land?

Not to mention, the land which was occupied by the Palestinians was once occupied by the Israelis for centuries, until the Israelis were forced from their land.

Yeah, by the Romans, almost 1900 years ago.

Now you're comparing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the Holocaust?! :huh:

It's nowhere near comparable. The Jews were explicitly targeted for being Jewish, blamed for all the world's problems, confined to overcrowded ghettos, then shipped to a labor camp where they either worked themselves to death or were executed. The Palestinians were kicked off their land, and that's about where it ends. The Israelis haven't rounded up Palestinians, sent them to work because they felt they were inferior, then gassed or shot them.

That's one of the most absurd comparisons I've read on these boards yet :up:

No, I'm not comparing the two. I'm saying just telling someone to get over something that's happened to THEM, and not just their ancestors, is ridiculous. The Israel-Palestine conflict is much worse than 9/11, but try telling us to just get over that.

My main problem with this whole situation is OUR blind allegence to Israel. Politicians debate about everything; global warming, Iraq war, immigration, taxes, yet support of Israel is NOT open for discussion. If any potential politician brings it up, they would be crucified.

[Superman4ever]

How is that audacious?
Doesn't make sense to me.

How is it NOT audacious and completely distorted logic? You used a defense that it was OK for the Israelis right to return because they had the land 3000 YEARS ago, but than use the silly analogy that the Palestinians SHOULD NOT be given their land back (I'm assuming you're talking about the 67 lines, because I refuse -- absolutely -- to argue a theoretical complete exodus plan) because we in the US stole land from 2 nations.

That doesn't make sense!

[The Senator]

How is it NOT audacious and completely distorted logic? You used a defense that it was OK for the Israelis right to return because they had the land 3000 YEARS ago, but than use the silly analogy that the Palestinians SHOULD NOT be given their land back (I'm assuming you're talking about the 67 lines, because I refuse -- absolutely -- to argue a theoretical complete exodus plan) because we in the US stole land from 2 nations.

That doesn't make sense!

Well, you're saying it's justified for the Palestinians to take back their land? Then why wasn't it justifiable for the Israelis to take back their land?

Why isn't it justifiable for the Native Americans and Mexico to take back their land, if the Palestinians should be able to take their land back?

[Mr Sparkle]

Because the Jewish people have been persecuted long throughout the history of the world. Because for centuries, there were few places a Jew could live without the risk of being brutally murdered, en masse, by those they lived amongst. Be it Russia two hundred years ago, to Germany and Eastern Europe seventy years ago, the Jewish people have been scapegoated by other cultures as being the root of all evil.

Israel was created to give Jews a homeland-- a country where they could live without the fear of bring crushed by the societies they lived amongst. We, the United States, helped form Israel as a way to give the Jewish people the freedom we ourselves once sought.

Regardless of our politics, we have a responsibility to support these people. The Jewish people are a fundamentally good people. They live and breathe and bleed like all of us. In the past sixty years, Israel has become a country on its own, where millions live and operate in their everyday lives.

Yet, hate-filled terrorists like that scumbag Mahmoud Ahmadinejad feel its justified to wipe Israel off the map because they kicked the Palestinians away from their homeland. The Palestinians were screwed. But it was an unfortunate occurrence which our generation has no control over. What are we going to do now, destroy a nation we helped build so we can prove the Islamo-Fascists that we want to please them? What's the rational argument we have now? "Oh, we don't want to be attacked anymore... here, have Israel to yourselves, guys!"

I think a Palestinian state is long overdue. But I think Israel warrants our protection and our resources. I have many Jewish friends. My boyfriend is Jewish. One of my friends is an Israeli-American with dual citizenship. I know the plight many of these folks have dealt with, not throughout history, but currently.

When I hear stories of Palestinian terrorists lobbing rockets into residential communities, killing innocent civilians which had nothing to do with their exile, that's proof enough that Israel deserves our protection. When I hear of Palestinian terrorists strapping bombs to their chests and blowing up buses or marketplaces, that alone merits our protection and our support. Israel has become a scapegoat to the terrorists who inhabit the Middle East. It is our responsibility to prove that Democracy and religious freedom is prevalent over all else. It is our duty to protect a people who have become history's punching bag.

If Israel is annihilated by those nutjobs in the Middle East, I for one advocate a complete nuclear assault on the entire Middle East.


then why exactly was that Home not created somewhere else?
I mean, I'm sure that those who had a hand in creating Israel never thought to give up part of THEIR countries in order to give the Jewish people a home.
then again I'm sure If they had created Israel in the middle of Idaho and Israel HAD nuclear weapons nobody would feel threatened.
this has been a topic of discussion for many years, and contrary to popular beliefs some Jews are actually against the creation and support of Israel.
and I can understand that on some level, yes Israel was necessary, the placement of it?
idiotic, it's from a time when powerful nations thought they could do whatever they wanted to the middle east and NOTHING would happen.
"hey, install an US friendly dictator here, create a country here ( filled with jews no less) what's the worse that could happen?"

the thing that puzzled me about your response is " the jewish people are fundamentally good people"
well, so are the Palestinians, but you forget that foreign nations divided and gave away their country.
can you even imagine the chaos that would've ensued if they had planted Liberia in the middle of south?
taking away land from families, the animosity that this would breed?
add to that armed conflict and expansionism by the part of Israel and you have yourself a volatile mix.
think of it this way.
the Jewish state was little more than half jews and they owned a minuscule percentage of the land, so what did they do?
they expelled all palestinians, who lost their property livelihood and country in the blink of an eye.

a lot of noise is made about Palestinian attacks on Israel, and to be sure, targeting civilians is wrong, so wrong in fact, it's wrong when Israel does it.
Israel has made incursions into palestine to look for " suspected terrorists" in fact it has held Palestinians without trial, pretty much kidnapping them because they are connected to "terrorism" somehow.
I'm sure this build animosity towards them even more.
and there have been many incidents when Israel kind of goes ape**** and does some ironically storm-soldierish kind of stuff to the Palestinians.

Israel, well, I don't know if it should exist or not, anymore than I think Liberia was necessary.
I mean, there were tons of open land out there, tons.

why there?

I mean, to put forth a silly example let's say you're in your house one day, and I knock on your door.
and then you're all like " yes?" and I'm " hey, the Us government gave me your kitchen bathroom and bedroom, feel free to use the living room if you want"
and you're all " but that's MY bedroom :cmad:!"
and I'm like " well my family once slept here about two thousand years ago, so it's mine now:yay:"

I'm sure you'd be upset.

[bell110]

Yep, and since then, they have been keen to criticize them for just about everything under the sun, while they've been willing to overlook atrocities in other nations. Why haven't they condemned China for their human rights abuses? Where's the condemnation there? Yet Israel is worse than China?

Again, it doesn't make sense to me.

Atrocities happen all over the world, yes. It's sad. What makes Israel unique is that the west help set it up. They basically biting the hand that feeds them. The UN helps set them up, then they ignore and break the rules, and the US just turns a blind eye. China does some ****ed up things, but they've been around for thousands of years without anyones help.

[Superman4ever]

Well, you're saying it's justified for the Palestinians to take back their land? Then why wasn't it justifiable for the Israelis to take back their land?

Why isn't it justifiable for the Native Americans and Mexico to take back their land, if the Palestinians should be able to take their land back?

This twisted logic is pointless to debate. You obviously don't recognize the humane right that the Palestinians have. Rights that the UN, the majority of the world, even Bush and Cheney recognize and the majority of the Israelis recognize.

I'm not asking for the Jews to be pushed to the sea, very few do (and I dismiss such radical thinking completely, as I dismiss your irresponsible comments); my family are Israeli Jews and I definitely don't wish such a ludicrous scenario. But the Palestinians HAVE rights. Whether you care or not to recognize them is up to you, but to ignore and void such a humane responsibility is horrific, to say the least. And ultimately feeds this cycle of violence, hate and ignorance.

Anyways, I have rounds in 15 minutes.

Peace to all,

:yay:

[bell110]

Really, when reading about the west's involvement in establishing Israel, it sounds less like they were trying to help the Jews establish a homeland, and more like we were trying to get them away from our country. During the hight of Jews migration, or really fleeing Nazi tyrany, we closed our borders to them and said, "We have a better idea. Why don't you go to Palestine. Here, we'll help you."

[The Senator]

This twisted logic is pointless to debate. You obviously don't recognize the humane right that the Palestinians have. Rights that the UN, the majority of the world, even Bush and Cheney recognize and the majority of the Israelis recognize.

I'm not asking for the Jews to be pushed to the sea, very few do (and I dismiss such radical thinking completely, as I dismiss your irresponsible comments); my family are Israeli Jews and I definitely don't wish such a ludicrous scenario. But the Palestinians HAVE rights. Whether you care or not to recognize them is up to you, but to ignore and void such a humane responsibility is horrific, to say the least. And ultimately feeds this cycle of violence, hate and ignorance.

Anyways, I have rounds in 15 minutes.

Peace to all,

:yay:

I said I support a Palestinian state, but not where Israel is. The creation of a Palestinian state is necessary, but for some people to say "hey, let's kick the Israelis out of Israel and move the Palestinians back in" is outlandish. We can argue over this all we want, but nothing stops the fact that Israel exists, Palestine does not, and there's a crisis on both ends within that particular region of the world.

So my solution is, tell the surrounding Muslim nations to carve a state for the Palestinians. Saudi Arabia is a pretty big country. They have deserts and other empty landscapes. Why not sent the Palestinians there? Why won't the Saudis help out their brethren?

Both the Palestinians and the Israelis are guilty of participating in terrorism. But when the Palestinians whine and cry about how oppressed they are, and then they lob rockets into an apartment complex or co-sponsor the invasion of Israel by Lebanon and surrounding countries, it's hard for me to care all that much. Knowing the centuries long plight the Jewish people have faced, it's time that they are given an upper hand in the world, for once and for all.

Israel should stay where it is. Tell the Palestinians to look elsewhere for land.

[The Senator]

Really, when reading about the west's involvement in establishing Israel, it sounds less like they were trying to help the Jews establish a homeland, and more like we were trying to get them away from our country. During the hight of Jews migration, or really fleeing Nazi tyrany, we closed our borders to them and said, "We have a better idea. Why don't you go to Palestine. Here, we'll help you."

Well, Jews still live here, don't they? So if that was the goal, the west certainly failed at that.

[Mr Sparkle]

it's hard for me to care all that much. Knowing the centuries long plight the Jewish people have faced, it's time that they are given an upper hand in the world, for once and for all.

Israel should stay where it is. Tell the Palestinians to look elsewhere for land.

should black people in the US be given their own country?
you know....given their centuries long plight.

[StorminNorman]

should black people in the US be given their own country?
you know....given their centuries long plight.

African Americans have a homeland. Some call it Africa.

[The Senator]

should black people in the US be given their own country?
you know....given their centuries long plight.

Whatever response I give to this question will be criticized word-for-word by you, so why should I bother?

But in all honesty, no, they shouldn't, for this one distinction: African Americans are not being universally targeted for their race in this country. The Jewish people were targeted for being Jews by the Nazis during WWII. They were put in concentration camps and worked to death, if they were lucky enough to work themselves to death. Jews in Russia were executed for being Jewish. Jews living in Arab countries are targeted and executed on a regular basis. In the mid-1900s, it would be unsafe for the Jewish people to live in Eastern Europe. Today, it's unsafe for the Jewish people to live in the Middle East.

It's not universally unsafe for African Americans to live in the United States.

[The Senator]

African Americans have a homeland. Some call it Africa.

Ten bucks says someone will call this post "racist."

[StorminNorman]

Ten bucks says someone will call this post "racist."

I would hate for Mr Sparkle to once again paint me as racist, without knowing anything about me personally.

[Mr Sparkle]

African Americans have a homeland. Some call it Africa.

no, I mean those have had to suffer the " plight " of slavery in the US (obviously)
their homeland would have to be in the US.:cwink:

[Mr Sparkle]

Whatever response I give to this question will be criticized word-for-word by you, so why should I bother?

But in all honesty, no, they shouldn't, for this one distinction: African Americans are not being universally targeted for their race in this country. The Jewish people were targeted for being Jews by the Nazis during WWII. They were put in concentration camps and worked to death, if they were lucky enough to work themselves to death. Jews in Russia were executed for being Jewish. Jews living in Arab countries are targeted and executed on a regular basis. In the mid-1900s, it would be unsafe for the Jewish people to live in Eastern Europe. Today, it's unsafe for the Jewish people to live in the Middle East.

It's not universally unsafe for African Americans to live in the United States.

wow, and yet no one questions the placement of Israel. :up:
AND it was never universally unsafe for Jews to live in Germany before the holocaust for instance.

and you know what?
since apparently you can't have someone with different views engage you in conversation, then don't bother altogether.
you people are like children, I disagree on some matters with some of my best friends, one of the posters I most agree with on this site ( that would be wilhelm) and I have had long arguments about stuff we disagree on.
but we never go the " why bother?" cop-out.
did you come to discuss politics to have it be some sort of friendly circle jerk?
do you all just expect people that agree with you to quote your posts and say " agree" or "agreed 100%" :huh: :down
I mean, freaking celldog, who I never agree with Celldog who routinely throws racial slurs my way and questions my answers because I'm mexican, I've never said " why bother?" or " I'm done with you" do you people have so little faith in your arguments that they can't withstand the slightest bit of criticism?

meh.

[Mr Sparkle]

I would hate for Mr Sparkle to once again paint me as racist, without knowing anything about me personally.

when did I paint you as a racist?:huh:
i'd hate for you to once again make stuff up.

[SuBe]

should black people in the US be given their own country?
you know....given their centuries long plight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Liberia

[Mr Sparkle]

I already mentioned liberia a page ago.
I meant in the US. in the middle of Idaho specifically.

[SuBe]

I already mentioned liberia a page ago.
I meant in the US. in the middle of Idaho specifically.

Oh, I didn't see that. Sorry.

Don't they already have the Diamond District in NY?

I'm kidding, carry on.

[StorminNorman]

when did I paint you as a racist?:huh:
i'd hate for you to once again make stuff up.

I would reference almost any debate we had involving Illegal Immigrants or Rev. Jemimah Wright.

[StorminNorman]

no, I mean those have had to suffer the " plight " of slavery in the US (obviously)
their homeland would have to be in the US.:cwink:

And they do. Those that were ripped from their tribes in Africa, sent to America and spent decades under the horrors of slaver have the right now to escape from a country that has brought their people terror - Africa.

Jew's, without Israel, have no place to go. No homeland. That is why Israel needs to exist. Given their history of mistreatment throughout the history of the world - they need a safe house.

[The Senator]

wow, and yet no one questions the placement of Israel. :up:
AND it was never universally unsafe for Jews to live in Germany before the holocaust for instance.

and you know what?
since apparently you can't have someone with different views engage you in conversation, then don't bother altogether.
you people are like children, I disagree on some matters with some of my best friends, one of the posters I most agree with on this site ( that would be wilhelm) and I have had long arguments about stuff we disagree on.
but we never go the " why bother?" cop-out.
did you come to discuss politics to have it be some sort of friendly circle jerk?
do you all just expect people that agree with you to quote your posts and say " agree" or "agreed 100%" :huh: :down
I mean, freaking celldog, who I never agree with Celldog who routinely throws racial slurs my way and questions my answers because I'm mexican, I've never said " why bother?" or " I'm done with you" do you people have so little faith in your arguments that they can't withstand the slightest bit of criticism?

meh.

The reason why many of us get tired of debating issues with you is because you ALWAYS take the conversation to a completely different level than where it needs to be. You ALWAYS try to put people in a corner by bringing ridiculous examples into the discussion. I have disagreed with you and other posters on this forum, but when we discuss Israel, for instance, and you ask "should Alfrican Americans have their own state because of slavery?" not only are you changing the discussion, it's you're trying to paint us into a corner because NO ANSWER will be sufficient for you.

You'd turn it into a six-page ***** fest on African Americans or some other situation which isn't remotely comparable to Israel and Palestine.

You'd go word for word and would ask ridiculous questions which try to expose the ignorance of everyone you disagree with. LIKE ALWAYS. Like you did in the thread where we discussed Geraldine Ferraro, claiming that I and others think Obama is only where he is because he's black when I said I don't think he'd have the same level of support if he were white.

This topic doesn't need that kind of ridiculousness, because quite honestly, you're just arguing points for the sake of arguing so you can prove you're smarter than everyone else here.

[Mr Sparkle]

actually I had a post rife with related points, Israel it's formation and trespasses on Palestine, all topic related.

all mysteriously ( and Ironically ) Ignored.
for instance, here " no one questions the placement of Israel" totally on topic , totally ignored.

as to the real reasons you don't answer? i leave that up to you.
I like how all of a sudden it has become a " why WE don't like you" thing, but you know what? I've always been like this, and I didn't see you chastise me when you agreed with what I had to say.

hmm. makes me wonder.

[Mr Sparkle]

Jew's, without Israel, have no place to go. No homeland. That is why Israel needs to exist. Given their history of mistreatment throughout the history of the world - they need a safe house.

I want people to get it straight, because I have said are Jews a Race?
and people say, no, they are a religion.
Christians were once persecuted, they were thrown to the lions, and regardless of the fact that they didn't have a " safe " area, they are now doing pretty OK. ( the US I'm looking at you)
if they are a race, and certain genetic markers would say that they are.
then still, to set apart a country for a specific race? I mean, does anyone know what happened when black Jews wanted to return to Israel?
(genetic markers redeemed them BTW) but I'm sure that this is lost upon the majority of people.

and, if indeed the Jews need a " safe house" then, the placement of this safe house is in fact the stupidest decision in the history of the world next to " man superman would look cool in a blue suit with energy flowing out of his eyes!" one wonders why the US so damned rich in land didn't volunteer to give Israel the little strip of land it needed.
again, I said this in the post a page back ( the one that had nothing to do with the topic and was about south America or some ****) why does no one question both the placement, and the nature of Israel, and the fact that subsequent actions of the Israeli state secured the animosity of the Palestinians?
45% of the Israeli homeland were Palestinian, and in the blink of an eye, they had NOTHING.
I'm sure this didn't make them angry in the least.
but again.

I can see how this would be unrelated to the topic.
I'm sure if a European nation established a new country in the middle of an existing country and ejected the indigenous people keeping for themselves the people's properties it would be universally supported.

[bell110]

And they do. Those that were ripped from their tribes in Africa, sent to America and spent decades under the horrors of slaver have the right now to escape from a country that has brought their people terror - Africa.

Jew's, without Israel, have no place to go. No homeland. That is why Israel needs to exist. Given their history of mistreatment throughout the history of the world - they need a safe house.

Palestinians have a homeland to. It's called ****ing Palestine.

Unfortunately, in physics, to objects can't occupy the same space at the same time. And Israel and Palestine also can't occupy the same space at the same time.

And that is a load of crap, "Jews, without Israel, have no place to go." What about America? Canada? England? America has plenty of of desert land which no one lives, if we were really so concerned about the Jews, why don't we give them that? How about Alaska, most of that is uninhabited, plus it has oil. ****, NO ONE lives in Antartica. There you go, a whole continent full of Jews.

If we can so easily dismiss the wishes of Palestinians, we can just as easily dismiss the wishes of the Jews.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

You'd go word for word and would ask ridiculous questions which try to expose the ignorance of everyone you disagree with.The key to stop being bugged by this, is to stop being ignorant.
He's exposing his opponent to their own ignorance.

You say that no answer is sufficient with him, as if it's a reflection on him, which is amusing, because you're becoming the very thing you're complaining about, completely incapable of even entertaining the possibility that maybe, the reason none of your answers are accepted, is actually because none of them are sufficient and he has a good point, presented in a way that hadn't occurred to you yet..

Therefore, you will not accept any question he raises. You automatically ascribe the impasse to him, because, it couldn't be you, no matter what.

lol, :whatever:

I've seen what you call the "irrelevant" comparisons and hypothetical questions and they're not irrelevant. You don't like them because they totally, effortlessly demolish your argument. :o

[StorminNorman]

Palestinians have a homeland to. It's called ****ing Palestine.

Unfortunately, in physics, to objects can't occupy the same space at the same time. And Israel and Palestine also can't occupy the same space at the same time.

And that is a load of crap, "Jews, without Israel, have no place to go." What about America? Canada? England? America has plenty of of desert land which no one lives, if we were really so concerned about the Jews, why don't we give them that? How about Alaska, most of that is uninhabited, plus it has oil. ****, NO ONE lives in Antartica. There you go, a whole continent full of Jews.

If we can so easily dismiss the wishes of Palestinians, we can just as easily dismiss the wishes of the Jews.

Palestinians are not a race or a religion. The Palestinian people can join the countries of Egypt or Jordan or Syria and suffer no real loss in culture and would not be picked out.

Jew's have no other Jewish nation.

And you can't just find random places to put people. Its unrealistic and unnecessarily absurd. Israel was picked because it was once the land of the Jews. It was taken away from Jewish rule and then was restored.

Also, the Israeli Government have tried to work with the Palestinians - they have given up land. Egypt and other Arab countries have taken "Palestinian" land as well - so they, like Israel, should concede land for Palestine.

[The Senator]

Yeah... I've defended myself and my points brutally in this thread and in others. I've been exposed to a wide variety of view points on this and other matters throughout my life. Knowing people who have survived rocket attacks on their neighborhood near Tel Aviv, as the result of Palestinian militants, and then having to defend why I feel the Palestinians don't deserve their land back... why isn't that sufficient enough? Why does it have to turn into a discussion about slavery? Anyone here know someone who was kicked out of Palestine in the 1940s? Anyone here have friends who have been involved in such attacks, Israeli or Palestinian?

This is why I feel strongly on this. It's personal. I don't feel the Palestinians deserve to have Israel back. They can have their own state. They should negotiate with Saudi Arabia or another nearby Middle Easter country.

I find it a bit insulting to look at where I'm coming from, and then say "hey, what about African Americans? Do they deserve their own country in the U.S.?" That's a completely different topic, it has nothing to do with what went on in Israel and Palestine in the 1940s.

[The Senator]

Palestinians have a homeland to. It's called ****ing Palestine.

Unfortunately, in physics, to objects can't occupy the same space at the same time. And Israel and Palestine also can't occupy the same space at the same time.

And that is a load of crap, "Jews, without Israel, have no place to go." What about America? Canada? England? America has plenty of of desert land which no one lives, if we were really so concerned about the Jews, why don't we give them that? How about Alaska, most of that is uninhabited, plus it has oil. ****, NO ONE lives in Antartica. There you go, a whole continent full of Jews.

If we can so easily dismiss the wishes of Palestinians, we can just as easily dismiss the wishes of the Jews.

Maybe they should send the Palestinians to Antarctica, then? Since there's no one living there, you can have a full continent full of Palestinians :o

[StorminNorman]

I want people to get it straight, because I have said are Jews a Race?
and people say, no, they are a religion.
Christians were once persecuted, they were thrown to the lions, and regardless of the fact that they didn't have a " safe " area, they are now doing pretty OK. ( the US I'm looking at you)
if they are a race, and certain genetic markers would say that they are.
then still, to set apart a country for a specific race? I mean, does anyone know what happened when black Jews wanted to return to Israel?
(genetic markers redeemed them BTW) but I'm sure that this is lost upon the majority of people.

and, if indeed the Jews need a " safe house" then, the placement of this safe house is in fact the stupidest decision in the history of the world next to " man superman would look cool in a blue suit with energy flowing out of his eyes!" one wonders why the US so damned rich in land didn't volunteer to give Israel the little strip of land it needed.
again, I said this in the post a page back ( the one that had nothing to do with the topic and was about south America or some ****) why does no one question both the placement, and the nature of Israel, and the fact that subsequent actions of the Israeli state secured the animosity of the Palestinians?
45% of the Israeli homeland were Palestinian, and in the blink of an eye, they had NOTHING.
I'm sure this didn't make them angry in the least.
but again.

I can see how this would be unrelated to the topic.
I'm sure if a European nation established a new country in the middle of an existing country and ejected the indigenous people keeping for themselves the people's properties it would be universally supported.

Blood Judaism is a race. That is why you can cast stereotypes about Jews. Genetics shows Jews are also more likely to get certain types of disease, like Tay-Sachs.

But to get to the heart of the argument, you can't just take some land anywhere and claim it to be the perfect spot for a religious people. The land of Israel was a holy land for Jews once and now has been restored. That is why it was picked. Yes - it puts the Jews in a hostile area, but the ones that should be complaining are the citizens of Israel. Instead of that, however, they have taken the proper measures and have developed one of the most effective militaries in the world. They have a history of military success against the massive forces of its Arab neighbors.

The fact is that anyone would be upset if land was evacuated to make a homeland for the Jewish people. I get that. But, if nothing else, by war, Israel has fought for its right to belong and exist in the place it is now.

And, again, no one points out the hypocrisies of the Arab neighbors that took Palestinian land as well.

[Mr Sparkle]

Yeah... I've defended myself and my points brutally in this thread and in others. I've been exposed to a wide variety of view points on this and other matters throughout my life. Knowing people who have survived rocket attacks on their neighborhood near Tel Aviv, as the result of Palestinian militants, and then having to defend why I feel the Palestinians don't deserve their land back... why isn't that sufficient enough? Why does it have to turn into a discussion about slavery? Anyone here know someone who was kicked out of Palestine in the 1940s? Anyone here have friends who have been involved in such attacks, Israeli or Palestinian?

This is why I feel strongly on this. It's personal. I don't feel the Palestinians deserve to have Israel back. They can have their own state. They should negotiate with Saudi Arabia or another nearby Middle Easter country.

I find it a bit insulting to look at where I'm coming from, and then say "hey, what about African Americans? Do they deserve their own country in the U.S.?" That's a completely different topic, it has nothing to do with what went on in Israel and Palestine in the 1940s.

who said this was a discussion about slavery.
it was you who added the element of "PLIGHT" to the discussion, and I was drawing a parallel.
didn't like it?
though.

and you just by far made the single dumbest argument I have made you see.
I find it insulting that " hey, you don't know people from the 1940's that were kicked out!? huh!? didn't think so":whatever:
as If knowing someone and having a personal , emotional attachment makes your points stronger.
if anything it makes them weaker.
I guess no one can ever discuss the civil war since we don't know people involved in it.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I find it a bit insulting to look at where I'm coming from, and then say "hey, what about African Americans? Do they deserve their own country in the U.S.?" That's a completely different topic, it has nothing to do with what went on in Israel and Palestine in the 1940s.You are extrapolating and trying to make the comment into a 1:1 analogy.

You said:Both the Palestinians and the Israelis are guilty of participating in terrorism.

...and then:Knowing the centuries long plight the Jewish people have faced, it's time that they are given an upper hand in the world, for once and for all.

So, it sounds like your justification for favoring Israel is based on their "centuries long plight".


So, Mr Sparkle said, "What about the centuries-long plight of the Black people at the hands of America?"

It's not saying that the experience of Black People and Jews are 100% comparable, but rather, asking if your justification is valid in and of itself...when you said that you "have a hard time caring" when Palestinians "whine" about being killed.

[redfirebird2008]

Israel's treatment of Palestinians is despicable in my opinion. Despicable enough that we should be neutral in all of this as far as I am concerned. As soon as the U.N. gave Israel its official statehood, Israel booted all the Palestinians from their homes and they've been in refugee camps for the last 60 years. My Middle East History teacher has been to some of these camps and says that he would not wish it on his worst enemy. Much of the Muslim world's anger for Israel is based on how that all went down and how it has continued for 60 years. Terrorism is never the answer, but it would be incredibly naive to believe that Israel has treated the Palestinians fairly. They haven't and not by a long shot. Neither have we. In fact, I think there's a double standard as far as Israel is concerned. Everyone is afraid to criticize them for engaging in the same kind of junk that Jews have dealt with in their history. There's a ton of guilt about it so no one wants to actually look at it objectively.

As one of my classmates said today, given the actual crap that the Palestinians have gone through at the hands of Israel's government, terrorist acts make it very difficult for people to look at their plight objectively. They'd be better off if they simply didn't engage in such idiotic behavior. Perhaps more in the media would take it seriously. Or perhaps not. The media, particularly in the west, is incredibly biased towards Israel on this matter, partially because Judaism and Christianity are perceived as being closer to one another than other religions, and because of the fact that the Jews have gone through a lot of crap themselves in their history. A government action against the Palestinians in which 100 innocents are killed is barely reported on but each and every terrorist attack on innocent Israelis is reported in detail.

[Mr Sparkle]

Blood Judaism is a race. That is why you can cast stereotypes about Jews. Genetics shows Jews are also more likely to get certain types of disease, like Tay-Sachs.

that's what I was saying :up: Jews are a race.

But to get to the heart of the argument, you can't just take some land anywhere and claim it to be the perfect spot for a religious people. The land of Israel was a holy land for Jews once and now has been restored. That is why it was picked. Yes - it puts the Jews in a hostile area, but the ones that should be complaining are the citizens of Israel. Instead of that, however, they have taken the proper measures and have developed one of the most effective militaries in the world. They have a history of military success against the massive forces of its Arab neighbors.

so, the complaints of the people currently living there?
no such luck. I'm guessing if they returned to the Native Americans their " ancestral homelands " ( they also being quite religious and tied to the land) the argument of " though **** for Palestine" wouldn't be raised as often would it?
I have no Idea what military might has to do with this, since it bears no relation to placement or legality.

The fact is that anyone would be upset if land was evacuated to make a homeland for the Jewish people. I get that. But, if nothing else, by war, Israel has fought for its right to belong and exist in the place it is now.

:huh: so, then, the insurgents ( since they haven't been defeated) have earned by war their right to exist in Iraq?

And, again, no one points out the hypocrisies of the Arab neighbors that took Palestinian land as well.

I'm pretty sure that the thread is devoted to why Israel is supported.
the right of Israel to be there is part my argument as to why It shouldn't be supported.
if a thread was made about these Arab neighbors then I could easily weigh in with you, we would agree and the Guinness would flow.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I forgot to point out again, because I want it to be clear to anyone who missed it, that jmanspice's credibility as a sane, level-headed constructor of opinions on this topic was totally vaporized right here:If Israel is annihilated by those nutjobs in the Middle East, I for one advocate a complete nuclear assault on the entire Middle East.

complete
nuclear
assault
on the ENTIRE Middle East
if Israel is annihilated
by those
"nut jobs"


Purest Evil
Purest Hatred

[Mr Sparkle]

complete
nuclear
assault
on the ENTIRE Middle East


I'm sure civilians would be spared.

[StorminNorman]

that's what I was saying :up: Jews are a race.

I realize that, and I was agreeing.

so, the complaints of the people currently living there?
no such luck. I'm guessing if they returned to the Native Americans their " ancestral homelands " ( they also being quite religious and tied to the land) the argument of " though **** for Palestine" wouldn't be raised as often would it?
I have no Idea what military might has to do with this, since it bears no relation to placement or legality.

Native American Nations has been allowed to exist in America. Yes, the Native Americans like the Palestinians got royally screwed - but almost everyone has been screwed throughout history. History shows land has often changed hands based almost purely on military might.

Military might has everything to do with legality. The ones with the military might make the law.

:huh: so, then, the insurgents ( since they haven't been defeated) have earned by war their right to exist in Iraq?

Escaping defeat is not the same as claiming victory. IF the insurgents are able to take America out of Iraq and overthrow the Iraqi government - then yes, they have earned their way into existing in Iraq.

I'm pretty sure that the thread is devoted to why Israel is supported.
the right of Israel to be there is part my argument as to why It shouldn't be supported.
if a thread was made about these Arab neighbors then I could easily weigh in with you, we would agree and the Guinness would flow.

This thread may be about why the US supports Israel - but it has grown into justifying the right of Israel and the rights of Palestine to exist. The thread has evolved past the original intent (though I have no doubt the author expect this change). Thus, I believe the actions of the Arab neighbors are relevant.

The idea of Guinness flowing, however, is something I can support.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I'm sure civilians would be spared.His thinking is exactly like that of Osama Bin Laden.

Part of what's horrifying to me about terrorists in America, is that I hate my evil government's foreign policy, don't approve, was never asked if I did, wish it was different...but I'm totally powerless to do anything about it. But they don't care. If I'm "American", then we ALL have to pay, for the actions of people I don't even agree with.

And that's what he's saying, on just as big a scale.
There are freaking young people, wannabe journalists, in Iran, who don't agree with their government, despise theocracy, and have to struggle to even express themselves without being imprisoned or worse.


But he says all of them should die, and their babies too, if some OTHER COUNTRY THAN IRAN happened to attack and destroy Israel?!?

So evil.

[Tron5000]

I forgot to point out again, because I want it to be clear to anyone who missed it, that jmanspice's credibility as a sane, level-headed constructor of opinions on this topic was totally vaporized right here:

complete
nuclear
assault
on the ENTIRE Middle East
if Israel is annihilated
by those
"nut jobs"


Purest Evil
Purest Hatred

You just called jman "evil"? Like, for serious?

Edit: Actually, nevermind. I don't want to inject myself into whatever you 2 have going on here.

[Mr Sparkle]

You just called jman "evil"? Like, for serious?

you'd characterize one who would kill off the entire middle east as something else?

for some perspective, the number of Jews killed in the holocaust was about 6,000 000.
Iran alone holds 68,688,433 people.

was Hitler "evil"?

[redfirebird2008]

Jman's answer to partial genocide is responding with partial genocide. Wonderful.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

You just called jman "evil"? Like, for serious?

Edit: Actually, nevermind. I don't want to inject myself into whatever you 2 have going on here.Um, dude, he wants

Iran
Pakistan
Turkey
Afghanistan
Iraq
Kuwait
Bahrain
Oman
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates
Yemen
Jordan
Lebanon
Syria
Algeria
Egypt
Libya
Morocco
Tunisia
Gaza Strip
West Bank

To be slaughtered or to die slowly from radiation poisoning that will destroy the Earth for eons..........if ONE country were to be destroyed.
That's the extent of his blind, fanatical adulation for Israel.


Is there ANY, other word for it? :huh:

[CorpusBlack]

Is there ANY, other word for it? :huh:

Sith?

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Purest Sith.
Too bad he and Reagan never got their Death Star of David completed. :(

[Superman4ever]

I forgot to point out again, because I want it to be clear to anyone who missed it, that jmanspice's credibility as a sane, level-headed constructor of opinions on this topic was totally vaporized right here:

complete
nuclear
assault
on the ENTIRE Middle East
if Israel is annihilated
by those
"nut jobs"


Purest Evil
Purest Hatred

:up:

That's exactly what I pointed out earlier. 6 Million Jews died in the Holocaust, which I think most of us can agree was an atrocity, but what Jman is considering is the Holocaust x 1000.

How any sane person can even make such a suggestion is beyond me. It's genocide on a level that I can't even comprehend. And what is scary is that this type of fervor hatred is not foreign to some of our radical "leaders."

Twisted radicalism that is no better than Osama bin Laden. It's just against another type of people.

[Addendum]

Too bad he and Reagan never got their Death Star of David completed. :(

:lmao:

ekodkuw1hgE

[Wilhelm-Scream]

whoa

[CorpusBlack]

Purest Sith.
Too bad he and Reagan never got their Death Star of David completed. :(

QFMFT! :up:

[The Senator]

I've given up.

Someone responded to my post about total annihilation of the middle east, and then I wrote that I supported the nuclear annihilation to every country which conspired to nuke Israel.

Meaning the countries which nuked Israel, put money into nuking Israel, or refused to condemn the attacks. Most of those countries on your list, Wilhelm, do not support such action and would not be attacked.

But really, what does this defense matter?

I've spent a few months on this forum and I've noticed several things. Anyone who has any real-world perspective on these issues, whether its campaign experience or relationships with those who have lived in Israel and dealt with terrorism, does not get a say in the matter. Meanwhile, people who probably haven't even voted, nor do they know someone personally (as in real life, not through electronic means) who comes from another country. Yet they think they know more than those who have dealt with this stuff.

Whether it's the psycho Christians who think gays are doomed to hell, to the Obama supporters who are incapable of taking an objective look at their candidate, to the people who spend the majority of their time on these forums lusting over an argument... it's becoming more and more of a frustration for me to spend time with this.

And now, people are flat out insulting me, referring to me as "evil?" A "sith lord?" Seriously?

My views on Israel on fairly extreme. I do not deny that. But I explained, in another post, that I did not mean the entire Middle East. Because this has caused as much confusion as it has, and I have had my name dragged through the mud, I apologize for what I said, if it was taken out of context.

But even this doesn't matter, does it?

This apology will be taken by Wilhelm and Sparkle and trashed and torn and screamed at, like they have the past two pages of this thread. Not to mention the other posters in this thread who have added their concerns and referred to me as an extremist.

I have been faced with a decision for a long time, whether to keep my presence on these boards or not, because I'm spending more time than I should be here. One of the things I've always tried to do on and off these forums is convince people that my argument is right. I've always lived my life by a very good set of morals and standards.

But to be called "evil?"

Yeah, that's pushing it. That's getting far more personal than anything else I've written here. I'm keeping my options open, but I don't know how much longer I can participate here. These discussions have been great, sometimes frustrating... but now that I've been pegged as an "evil sith lord" by you guys, there's really no reason for me to continue posting here.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I've given up.

Someone responded to my post about total annihilation of the middle east, and then I wrote that I supported the nuclear annihilation to every country which conspired to nuke Israel.

Meaning the countries which nuked Israel, put money into nuking Israel, or refused to condemn the attacks. Most of those countries on your list, Wilhelm, do not support such action and would not be attacked.

But really, what does this defense matter?Don't pretend to be a babe in the woods now.
You knew exactly what you were saying when you said:If Israel is annihilated by those nutjobs in the Middle East, I for one advocate a complete nuclear assault on the entire Middle East.

The proof is in how you made the distinction between those responsible for harm to Israel, and the Middle East as a whole.
You said, if the "nutjobs" in the Middle East destroy Israel, then you want the ENTIRE Middle East bombed.
If that wasn't what you truly meant, one would expect it to come out more like, "If some Middle Eastern nut jobs destroy Israel, I think they should be nuked."

But, you went out of your way to say "entire".
"Entire" is not a word that one commonly mixes up with "Whoever is at fault".
Like, way back in grade school...for P.E. class, we went swimming once.
Someone defecated in the pool.
The principal found out, made us all stand there in a line, and said, "If the person who did that, doesn't come forward, the ENTIRE class will wait here until he does!"

See, the difference, between "the one/s responsible", and the "entire" group?

The fact is that your emotions were stirred up and they got the best of you and your hatred for the entire region flared up as you fantasized about eradicating the "ENTIRE" region, because of the actions of the "NUT JOBS".

Then, someone called you on it, so you changed it to avoid sounding so barbaric and irrational.
The sentiment was still there. :o

I've spent a few months on this forum and I've noticed several things. Anyone who has any real-world perspective on these issues, whether its campaign experience or relationships with those who have lived in Israel and dealt with terrorism, does not get a say in the matter.You have as much say as anyone else. What are you doing here? :huh:
Talking about your take on it, just like everyone else.
Now you have an unfounded persecution complex because someone disagrees with you or takes issue with your call for genocide?

Whether it's the psycho Christians who think gays are doomed to hell, to the Obama supporters who are incapable of taking an objective look at their candidate, to the people who spend the majority of their time on these forums lusting over an argument... it's becoming more and more of a frustration for me to spend time with this.You should leave. I got frustrated with another site...wasn't fun or worth my time anymore, so I stopped participating. Easy solution.

And now, people are flat out insulting me, referring to me as "evil?" A "sith lord?" Seriously?It's not an insult, it's an observation.
Once again:If Israel is annihilated by those nutjobs in the Middle East, I for one advocate a complete nuclear assault on the entire Middle East.
You don't see how someone might think that's an evil thing to advocate? :huh:

My views on Israel on fairly extreme. I do not deny that. But I explained, in another post, that I did not mean the entire Middle East. Because this has caused as much confusion as it has, and I have had my name dragged through the mud, I apologize for what I said, if it was taken out of context.I don't see how any context can make "entire Middle East", "actually" mean, "the nations responsible".

If you can show me how that works, I'll gladly apologize and agree that you are not an evil, pro-genocide person.



This apology will be taken by Wilhelm and Sparkle and trashed and torn and screamed at, like they have the past two pages of this thread. Not to mention the other posters in this thread who have added their concerns and referred to me as an extremist.I'm still not getting a sense of whether you're apologizing for initially wanting to bomb the entire Middle East, or if you are apologizing for accidentally saying "entire" when you didn't actually, in any way mean, "entire".

One of the things I've always tried to do on and off these forums is convince people that my argument is right. I've always lived my life by a very good set of morals and standards.I'm curious...you said that Mr Sparkle only argues to prove that he's smarter than everyone else.
Is that why you have always tried to convince people that your argument is right? Or do you have a...higher purpose than Mr Sparkle?
And if that is the case, how do you know what his inner motivations are and why should we believe you when you state yours?

but now that I've been pegged as an "evil sith lord" by you guys, there's really no reason for me to continue posting here.Well, you could just start by refraining from calling for the agonizing death of an entire people while irreversibly damaging the entire Earth.
Even Darth Vader turned good eventually. :)

[The Senator]

Then I apologize for misspeaking, eh?

I mean, I don't truly advocate the total destruction of the Middle East. Like you said, what I should have said off the bat was nations which conspired against Israel and attacked Israel with nuclear weapons should be dealt with accordingly. If they nuke Israel, the nations responsible should be nuked back.

"Entire Middle East" was a huge misleading overstatement.

Not peaceful nations such as Turkey or Qatar or the United Arab Emirates which, when compared to nations such as Iran and Lebanon, do not have a history of sponsoring terrorism or destruction against Israel.

Again, knowing someone who has been exposed to the attacks by Palestinians has made me very conservative when it comes to Israel. Obviously, I misspoke, and the sentence which I said was very out of line. The exact quote, not minding what I said only a few posts later to clarify my stance, was overtly exaggerated on my behalf. As a result, I understand the consequences, understand everyone's concerns, and apologize for what I said.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Okay, well I can no longer condone the labeling of this man as a Sith lord!! :cmad:
He's a human being, god damn it!
Frail, flawed, and HUMAN!

[The Senator]

Okay, well I can no longer condone the labeling of this man as a Sith lord!! :cmad:
He's a human being, god damn it!
Frail, flawed, and HUMAN!

Thanks :huh:

[Superman4ever]

I've spent a few months on this forum and I've noticed several things. Anyone who has any real-world perspective on these issues, whether its campaign experience or relationships with those who have lived in Israel and dealt with terrorism, does not get a say in the matter. Meanwhile, people who probably haven't even voted, nor do they know someone personally (as in real life, not through electronic means) who comes from another country. Yet they think they know more than those who have dealt with this stuff.


I'm related to more Israeli Jews than you'll ever know Jews and who's to say, besides yourself, that you're the only person with real-world perspective on issues?

I've sat, cried and shared with more people on both sides of this horrible situation than I care to count, yet you dare to sit on your high horse of "real-world perspective" by claiming to know ONE person who's been affected by horrific violence and STILL advocate the destruction of WHOLE countries (of 70 million-plus HUMAN beings), such as Iran or Lebanon? Have you even cared to listen to the Palestinians side, the Lebanese side? Obviously not since you, "don't care."

I've had family maimed in Israel. I've had family die to suicide bombings in Iraq.

So what real-world experience can you really boast here besides the fact that you're simply a radical in the sense you ONLY care about ONE side of the argument and testify that ONE side is ALWAYS right, never wrong and the other sided is ALWAYS wrong, never harmed? Cause ALL Arabs and ALL MUSLIMS are terrorist scum who deserve to die, right?

You're not conservative you're a Kahanist.

It's this type of radicalism (whether Zionism/Kahanism or Arabism/extremism) on BOTH sides that feeds into this never ending violence.

You really are a Clinton supporter you're using her tactics.

[The Senator]

I'm related to more Israeli Jews than you'll ever know Jews and who's to say, besides yourself, that you're the only person with real-world perspective on issues?

I didn't claim to be the only person here with a real world perspective. I believe that some people here don't have that experience.

The way I see it, folks with that sort of experience are always welcome to contribute.


I've sat, cried and shared with more people on both sides of this horrible situation than I care to count, yet you dare to sit on your high horse of "real-world perspective" by claiming to know ONE person who's been affected by horrific violence and STILL advocate the destruction of WHOLE countries (of 70 million-plus HUMAN beings), such as Iran or Lebanon? Have you even cared to listen to the Palestinians side, the Lebanese side? Obviously not since you, "don't care."

I understand what you're saying. I don't know just ONE person who migrates between Israel and America. She's the closest friend I've got. I have a friend currently attending a semester abroad in Israel, while my boyfriend and his family are Jewish. He has family currently living in Jerusalem, who were forced from their original home two years ago during the Israel-Lebanon conflict. I don't know them all that well, but I know more than one person who has been affected by this. She just happens to be my closest connection in Israel, and my best friend outside of my current relationship.

EDIT: I've also listened to the Palestinians' side, yes. I've read a lot about their own "plight." While I wish they could have their own state, I feel Israel was a sacrifice worth making. There is land in Saudi Arabia, Syria and Jordan which the Muslims could give to the Palestinians. I don't know why they won't do it.

So what real-world experience can you really boast here besides the fact that you're simply a radical in the sense you ONLY care about ONE side of the argument and testify that ONE side is ALWAYS right, never wrong and the other sided is ALWAYS wrong, never harmed? Cause ALL Arabs and ALL MUSLIMS are terrorist scum who deserve to die, right?

I never said all Arabs deserve to die. I have advocated the creation of a Palestinian state, if you actually read my posts-- only I don't feel the Israelis should be forced to give up their land. If the Muslims in the Middle East feel the Palestinians have been persecuted, then why don't they give up some of their land? It's a fair question.

And no, not all Muslims are terrorists and scum. Not even remotely close to what I said.


You're not conservative you're a Kahanist.

Well Kahanists believe Israeli citizenship should be exclusively available to Jews, and that the gentiles should be either deported or given the Israeli equivalent of a green card. In a sense, I believe Israel has a right to make its own laws, and considering it's a theocratic state, I don't disagree with making Jewish heritage a primary component of citizenship. A resident permit would work for those wishing to stay in the country who aren't Jewish. So, in the above sense, I agree with what Kahane said.

However, I don't agree that Muslims are enemies of the Jews. I think Muslim extremists/ Islamo-fascists, such as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, are enemies of the Jews. There's a very distinct difference there. People who preach hatred towards the Jews, who believe the Holocaust never happened, who launch rockets into residential boroughs killing innocent people in the process-- those are the people who are enemies of the Jews. In this sense, I disagree with Kahane. And since this is the core of Kahanism, I don't think I can be considered a Kahanist.

[Kelly]

I'm all for the US supporting Israel.....but if they don't stop the Jewish settlement in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, and if they don't stop the **** they've been doing the last few weeks........my support of that support is weakening at a rapid pace.

[Ancracks]

We support Israel for two big reasons!! (1) 'Cause some religious nutjobs think that it'll bring about the second coming of Jesus (Yeah, like letting millions of innocent civilians suffer and die is gonna make Jesus get you into heaven, sick irony, and (2) 'Cause it's a springboard from which the Western powers can clamp down on the Middle East and all of its resources or in one big word, OIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And a third possible reason, though sickening, is that there is a huge Anti-Islam, Anti-Arab policy in the dark circles of the West. Since Israel's occupation is strategically defeating to it, it raises the possibility that its for the third reason. And since Islam will surpass Christianity in terms of followers by the year 2020, you'd imagine the crisis within the West as they realize this extraordinary paradigm shift coming.

[The Senator]

There are some people who believe the creation of Israel is the first step towards Armageddon and the second coming of Christ. I think that's in the Bible, if I'm not mistaken.

Meanwhile, some of us non-religious folks believe it's crucial for the United States to stand by its Democratic counterparts. Any nation which promotes a peaceful, democratic standard of living as Israel does should be considered an ally. If Israel's government was wholeheartedly terroristic, I don't think we'd be supporting them through thick and thin. I certainly wouldn't.

[Arkady Rossovich]

Seriously. For years, I've been reading, trying to find some logical justification for us to support them. I can't. But for some reason, it's this HUGE issue politically that we MUST support them. Why?

To be honest,I have also wondered about that. The USA seems to be more close to Israel than any other country,I sometimes think..as it has been mentioned before that if the end of the world comes..God might look nicely on America..because it is such a close ally of Israel. I can't stop thinking about that,like the USA think there is some supernatural reason for being with such a country..and the history the people have.

[CorpusBlack]

Any nation which promotes a peaceful, democratic standard of living as Israel does should be considered an ally. If Israel's government was wholeheartedly terroristic, I don't think we'd be supporting them through thick and thin. I certainly wouldn't.

Agreed.

[Mr Sparkle]

I've spent a few months on this forum and I've noticed several things. Anyone who has any real-world perspective on these issues, whether its campaign experience or relationships with those who have lived in Israel and dealt with terrorism, does not get a say in the matter. Meanwhile, people who probably haven't even voted, nor do they know someone personally (as in real life, not through electronic means) who comes from another country. Yet they think they know more than those who have dealt with this stuff.

and I assume that " anyone who has a real world perspective " means "jmanspice" and all the people lacking that " real world perspective" is
"everyone who disagrees with jmanspice"
also, this of course assumes that people that disagree with you don't know anyone who comes from countries that deal with terrorism.

hmm, quite the assumption on your part.
I hope it's the right assumption.

Whether it's the psycho Christians who think gays are doomed to hell, to the Obama supporters who are incapable of taking an objective look at their candidate, to the people who spend the majority of their time on these forums lusting over an argument... it's becoming more and more of a frustration for me to spend time with this.

:huh: you spend a lot of time making caricatures out of people that disagree with you.
simply because someone doesn't not hold the same views as you, does not mean that he lacks objectivity.
like I told you in another thread.
you support Hillary, yet her husband was instrumental in the defense of marriage act, you know, one of the reasons that Gay people can't get married.
she didn't just listen to his speeches.
she ****ed the guy ( at one point ) and yet, YOUR objectivity about this?
but yeah, it's Obama supporters who can't be objective, again, because they disagree with you, not that there aren't people who actually think that sun sets and rises behind Obama's ass, but still.

bad show.


And now, people are flat out insulting me, referring to me as "evil?" A "sith lord?" Seriously?

I've been called much worse, I've been called racial slurs, I've been told I can't have an opinion on your country for being a foreigner, you yourself told me I know nothing about politics in your country when about 4 years of threads say otherwise.

jesus, grow a pair.

My views on Israel on fairly extreme. I do not deny that. But I explained, in another post, that I did not mean the entire Middle East. Because this has caused as much confusion as it has, and I have had my name dragged through the mud, I apologize for what I said, if it was taken out of context.

But even this doesn't matter, does it?

even if you advocate nuking ONE nation, ONE nation out of whatever number of nations there are, you're saying that the civilian population of that country is deserving of a nuclear strike.
but yeah, Wright says that the US had it chickens come home to roost in 9-11 you get all outraged.
he says stuff about white people and you go " I'm not from the KKK!:cmad:"
but some dude in the middle east that has the misfortune of having a nut for a leader?
"here's some missile up your ass dipwad!!!"

my eyes do not roll back far enough.

This apology will be taken by Wilhelm and Sparkle and trashed and torn and screamed at, like they have the past two pages of this thread. Not to mention the other posters in this thread who have added their concerns and referred to me as an extremist.

I have been faced with a decision for a long time, whether to keep my presence on these boards or not, because I'm spending more time than I should be here. One of the things I've always tried to do on and off these forums is convince people that my argument is right. I've always lived my life by a very good set of morals and standards.

But to be called "evil?"

again, I would recommend you deal with it.
In my stay in these forums I have had to report someone like twice, twice and that was for clearly going over the line, the two times I did so were not , repeat NOT about me.
and you're all upset because people disagree with you?
you really expected to advocate the killing of thousands of innocent people, maybe millions and you really expected people to agree with this?

Yeah, that's pushing it. That's getting far more personal than anything else I've written here. I'm keeping my options open, but I don't know how much longer I can participate here. These discussions have been great, sometimes frustrating... but now that I've been pegged as an "evil sith lord" by you guys, there's really no reason for me to continue posting here.

:whatever:

[Mr Sparkle]

I would hate for Mr Sparkle to once again paint me as racist, without knowing anything about me personally.

when did I paint you as a racist?:huh:
i'd hate for you to once again make stuff up.

I would reference almost any debate we had involving Illegal Immigrants or Rev. Jemimah Wright.

hahahaha.
I totally missed this.
pancakes anyone?

[The Senator]

and I assume that " anyone who has a real world perspective " means "jmanspice" and all the people lacking that " real world perspective" is
"everyone who disagrees with jmanspice"
also, this of course assumes that people that disagree with you don't know anyone who comes from countries that deal with terrorism.

No, a real world perspective does not mean "jmanspice," and those who lack it are not "everyone who disagrees with jmanspice."

Superman4ever told me about what he's experienced. Because of this, I respect him more for sharing that with me. While I respectfully disagree with his views, I believe he is far more credible than even I am when it comes to this topic. I have friends and family members by proxy who have been in the vicinity of the attack; he knows people who were actually maimed over there.

So I give him all the credit in the world for having and sharing the reality of the situation he has experienced.

The two of us feel strongly about this issue, one way or another, and we both have experienced terrorism amongst the Palestinians and Israelis through our friends and family.


:huh: you spend a lot of time making caricatures out of people that disagree with you.

I haven't made caricatures out of one person on this forum. I have never referred to a Republican on this forum as being evil or maniacal, have I? Even though I fundamentally disagree with most of what the part stands for? I haven't called Malice (no offense Malice, but this a good example) a crackpot because he thinks ordinary citizens who know nothing of politics should be elected to the House where they can control the government. Nor have I called Tron5000 (again, no offense) a gun-toting psychopath because he posted a picture of himself holding a rifle I would never even consider touching.

Caricatures of a group of people? Yeah, I've done that. But rarely, if at all, have I made charges against someone by name, barring the remarks I've made above against you and Wilhelm, which really aren't caricatures since you guys do that kind of crap on a daily basis.


simply because someone doesn't not hold the same views as you, does not mean that he lacks objectivity.
like I told you in another thread.
you support Hillary, yet her husband was instrumental in the defense of marriage act, you know, one of the reasons that Gay people can't get married.
she didn't just listen to his speeches.
she ****ed the guy ( at one point ) and yet, YOUR objectivity about this?
but yeah, it's Obama supporters who can't be objective, again, because they disagree with you, not that there aren't people who actually think that sun sets and rises behind Obama's ass, but still.

I personally detest the Defense of Marriage Act, and at the very beginning of this whole process, I was not going to vote for Clinton because her husband supported it.

Then she spoke out about her plans to repeal DOMA and Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Pieces of legislation which, under a Democratic-controlled Congress, can be easily repealed.

Not to mention she has consistently voted against legislation which would limit the rights of gays in this country, including the Federal Marriage Amendment. She has a proven record of defending homosexuals in this country.

Racist words against an entire race of people, be it whites or Jews, or ethnic stereotypes against Italians? I consider those unforgivable. When you know so little about the man in the first place, since he has such a short resume and you discover that he spent twenty years taking advice from a hack and eight years exposing his children to the same rhetoric he spews every week, that's when I call into question his judgment.

Judgment, mind you, not his character. I didn't say Obama thinks the Italians are "garlic noses," did I? I said he lacks judgment when it comes to hiring people to serve in both his and the country's best interest.

With DOMA, Hillary didn't vote for it. And she's voted in favor of homosexual rights, which proves she has the judgment I'm looking for.


I've been called much worse, I've been called racial slurs, I've been told I can't have an opinion on your country for being a foreigner, you yourself told me I know nothing about politics in your country when about 4 years of threads say otherwise.

So, you've been called much worse.

And that justifies referring to members of this forum as evil? This merits calling me a "Sith Lord" or saying that I conspired with Reagan to create a "Death Star of David?"

Not only were those comments uncalled for, but they were unclever and insidiously ignorant.


jesus, grow a pair.

The fact that I'm able to call you on your truly questionable behavior shows that I've grown a pair all my own, thanks.


even if you advocate nuking ONE nation, ONE nation out of whatever number of nations there are, you're saying that the civilian population of that country is deserving of a nuclear strike.
but yeah, Wright says that the US had it chickens come home to roost in 9-11 you get all outraged.
he says stuff about white people and you go " I'm not from the KKK!:cmad:"
but some dude in the middle east that has the misfortune of having a nut for a leader?
"here's some missile up your ass dipwad!!!"

It's called deterrence. You build up your nuclear response so you can retaliate against nations when they attack you or your allies. It's a practice several nations currently use to this very day. I feel it is justifiable for Israel to attack back on those who attacked them, whether its with a nuclear arsenal or not. And if the United States want to join in, then they're just as justified.

I don't advocate wiping out the entire Middle East, because if you or Wilhelm had read several posts beyond my initial post when Superman4ever quoted me, I said flat out, and I quote:


Well not the whole Mid East, but every country within the Mid East which sponsors, supports, and participates in the annihilation of Israel.

But rather than read that explanation, you two thought it'd be wonderful to compare me to Osama bin Laden and say that I support fighting genocide with genocide.

Talk about creating caricatures, eh?


again, I would recommend you deal with it.
In my stay in these forums I have had to report someone like twice, twice and that was for clearly going over the line, the two times I did so were not , repeat NOT about me.
and you're all upset because people disagree with you?
you really expected to advocate the killing of thousands of innocent people, maybe millions and you really expected people to agree with this?

Why? I should deal with being called evil and compared to one of the most brutal human beings in the history of modern civilization? That exceeds the "playful disrespect" posters occasionally participate in on this forum. It even goes beyond the personal and just flat out distorts the views I have. If someone who didn't pay any attention to what I've posted in the past were to base an opinion on the past two pages of this thread, they'd come out thinking that I'm some sort of extremist who thinks every single Muslim deserves to be wiped out because they don't support the Jews.

Even when I provide a thorough explanation of my views, which refute your claims, you look past and say that I'm incredulous and that I hate all Muslims when I posted in complete refutation of that belief before both of you had a chance to go on your two page destruction of my personal character.

I come here for intelligent, lively discussion. Yeah, I've been a hard ass sometimes, but I have the ability to recognize it. I've apologized to other posters, sometimes in PMs, when I feel I've crossed a line and portrayed myself as a douchebag. I've tried offering the same respect towards people time and time again, and I have never once insulted someone's character so blatantly as you and Wilhelm have in this thread. And if any poster feels that I have done that, then please, let me know, and I will issue you a formal apology because I feel that we can all act like rational and respectful adults on this forum.

I don't know why you brought up the issue of reporting another poster, but you can rest assured that I never reported you or Wilhelm for what you've said about me. If the Mods or anyone else has a problem with your disgusting portrayal of me, then that's up to them to discuss and them alone. I've reported one poster in my history here for referring to another poster in a derogatory manner. It wasn't even on the politics forum, it was in the community, in some topic which I really don't remember all to clearly. Maybe it was on Scientology or gay marriage, as those were the only two threads I have been actively involved in off this board.

So please, if you could be so kind, cut this vast defamation of my personal character from your rhetoric and move away from this. I'm willing to let bygones be bygones and work to improve how I present myself here, as I view every incident like this as a chance to improve my online character. I conduct myself professionally outside these forums, there's no reason why I or anyone else can't do the same here.

[Mr Sparkle]

No, a real world perspective does not mean "jmanspice," and those who lack it are not "everyone who disagrees with jmanspice."

Superman4ever told me about what he's experienced. Because of this, I respect him more for sharing that with me. While I respectfully disagree with his views, I believe he is far more credible than even I am when it comes to this topic. I have friends and family members by proxy who have been in the vicinity of the attack; he knows people who were actually maimed over there.

So I give him all the credit in the world for having and sharing the reality of the situation he has experienced.

The two of us feel strongly about this issue, one way or another, and we both have experienced terrorism amongst the Palestinians and Israelis through our friends and family.

yeah, but you know what?
it's the internet, and if you're waiting for someone to exchange internet credentials with you every time you're in an argument? well, you might as well leave right now, because then, no one will ever be up to your high standards.
you need to either disagree with someone for tangible reasons or agree with them, but saying " you don't know anyone over there so shut up"?
( yeah you didn't say this, you just implied it, or at least implied that the opposing argument came from ignorance) is useless.


I haven't made caricatures out of one person on this forum. I have never referred to a Republican on this forum as being evil or maniacal, have I? Even though I fundamentally disagree with most of what the part stands for? I haven't called Malice (no offense Malice, but this a good example) a crackpot because he thinks ordinary citizens who know nothing of politics should be elected to the House where they can control the government. Nor have I called Tron5000 (again, no offense) a gun-toting psychopath because he posted a picture of himself holding a rifle I would never even consider touching.

Caricatures of a group of people? Yeah, I've done that. But rarely, if at all, have I made charges against someone by name, barring the remarks I've made above against you and Wilhelm, which really aren't caricatures since you guys do that kind of crap on a daily basis.

hmm, so asserting that someone else's opinion comes from lack of knowledge or irrationality simply because you disagree with them, and when the other side has pretty much proven their rationality is NOT making a caricature of their points of view?
OK, and I love the " well, I said stuff about you guys, but you have to admit it's true"

:up:

I personally detest the Defense of Marriage Act, and at the very beginning of this whole process, I was not going to vote for Clinton because her husband supported it.

Then she spoke out about her plans to repeal DOMA and Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Pieces of legislation which, under a Democratic-controlled Congress, can be easily repealed.

Not to mention she has consistently voted against legislation which would limit the rights of gays in this country, including the Federal Marriage Amendment. She has a proven record of defending homosexuals in this country.

Racist words against an entire race of people, be it whites or Jews, or ethnic stereotypes against Italians? I consider those unforgivable. When you know so little about the man in the first place, since he has such a short resume and you discover that he spent twenty years taking advice from a hack and eight years exposing his children to the same rhetoric he spews every week, that's when I call into question his judgment.

Judgment, mind you, not his character. I didn't say Obama thinks the Italians are "garlic noses," did I? I said he lacks judgment when it comes to hiring people to serve in both his and the country's best interest.

I could , very easily apply the logic to this and say.
wow, so with Hillary you will base your views on her voting record, actions and promises.
but Obama?
yeah, not so much.
his actions?
useless?
his promises?
tainted
and of course unless you can provide me a " proven record" on Obama about " killing whitey" I'll say what I have been saying since the start.
" this is the biggest issue you could come up with in the democratic primary?"
pathetic, worse still is that intelligent people are getting lost in this "debate"
air quotes.

so yeah, you would notice that I hadn't even brought up the "Hillary Hates Gays" point because I don't believe in it, I just think that if you apply a rationale to something, you should be able to apply the same rationale when it's not particularly convenient.


So, you've been called much worse.

And that justifies referring to members of this forum as evil? This merits calling me a "Sith Lord" or saying that I conspired with Reagan to create a "Death Star of David?"

Not only were those comments uncalled for, but they were unclever and insidiously ignorant.

no, THAT doesn't justify it.
the fact that you think that a nation of 68 million people should die because of the decision making of their leaders?
THAT justifies it.
my point was that when you get called a name don;t get all indignant and say " I'm leaving".



The fact that I'm able to call you on your truly questionable behavior shows that I've grown a pair all my own, thanks.

meh.



It's called deterrence. You build up your nuclear response so you can retaliate against nations when they attack you or your allies. It's a practice several nations currently use to this very day. I feel it is justifiable for Israel to attack back on those who attacked them, whether its with a nuclear arsenal or not. And if the United States want to join in, then they're just as justified.

I don't advocate wiping out the entire Middle East, because if you or Wilhelm had read several posts beyond my initial post when Superman4ever quoted me, I said flat out, and I quote:

Well not the whole Mid East, but every country within the Mid East which sponsors, supports, and participates in the annihilation of Israel.



But rather than read that explanation, you two thought it'd be wonderful to compare me to Osama bin Laden and say that I support fighting genocide with genocide.

Talk about creating caricatures, eh?

yeah, you think that it makes any difference to me that you wouldn't kill
192,755,045


just, you know maybe 70 or 80 million.

boy, is MY face red.




Why? I should deal with being called evil and compared to one of the most brutal human beings in the history of modern civilization? That exceeds the "playful disrespect" posters occasionally participate in on this forum. It even goes beyond the personal and just flat out distorts the views I have. If someone who didn't pay any attention to what I've posted in the past were to base an opinion on the past two pages of this thread, they'd come out thinking that I'm some sort of extremist who thinks every single Muslim deserves to be wiped out because they don't support the Jews.

Even when I provide a thorough explanation of my views, which refute your claims, you look past and say that I'm incredulous and that I hate all Muslims when I posted in complete refutation of that belief before both of you had a chance to go on your two page destruction of my personal character.

I come here for intelligent, lively discussion. Yeah, I've been a hard ass sometimes, but I have the ability to recognize it. I've apologized to other posters, sometimes in PMs, when I feel I've crossed a line and portrayed myself as a douchebag. I've tried offering the same respect towards people time and time again, and I have never once insulted someone's character so blatantly as you and Wilhelm have in this thread. And if any poster feels that I have done that, then please, let me know, and I will issue you a formal apology because I feel that we can all act like rational and respectful adults on this forum.

I don't know why you brought up the issue of reporting another poster, but you can rest assured that I never reported you or Wilhelm for what you've said about me. If the Mods or anyone else has a problem with your disgusting portrayal of me, then that's up to them to discuss and them alone. I've reported one poster in my history here for referring to another poster in a derogatory manner. It wasn't even on the politics forum, it was in the community, in some topic which I really don't remember all to clearly. Maybe it was on Scientology or gay marriage, as those were the only two threads I have been actively involved in off this board.

So please, if you could be so kind, cut this vast defamation of my personal character from your rhetoric and move away from this. I'm willing to let bygones be bygones and work to improve how I present myself here, as I view every incident like this as a chance to improve my online character. I conduct myself professionally outside these forums, there's no reason why I or anyone else can't do the same here.

I'm sorry, but what you said was reprehensible, don;t like my response?
well I don't usually feel like saying " well seems fair, let me think about it" when someone says.
"nuke the nations that sponsors , supports and participates in the annihilation of Israel" that's some Keyzer Soze whit right there.
so, if you think my behavior for calling your idea and by extension you " evil" was reprehensible.
think about the stuff you just advocated.
I just called you a name, you implictly supported the murder of millions of innocents in the name of " deterrence" .

[Kelly]

Ok, guys......that's enough.....................you have all made your points. If the posts do not move away from the personal, then the thread will be closed.


It is amazing how to me, how hard it is for some of you to debate the issues, and not get snarky, and personal.......

I'm also getting very tired of people getting upset when their "extreme post" is replied to with an equally "extreme post".

The debates in this forum will get heated, and at times pretty personal because that is the nature of political debate.

BUT, in this instance, the personal has gone long enough, and we need to move on. We will move on....................

THIS IS THE ONLY WARNING ABOUT THIS.......if it continues, in this tone, then the thread will be closed.

[The Senator]

Sparkle:

This debate has caused me to take a deeper look into what I would do if Israel was nuked by one of its enemies.

Perhaps the best route of action would be to send military forces into the countries which orchestrated these attacks and overthrow the leaders of that government. Then, the international community can put those responsible up for trial, while new elections are held in those Middle Eastern nations.

Obviously that's an "idealistic" scenario, and will probably not pan out. Any nuclear attack on Israel will be met with a nuclear attack on the attacking nation, creating a global disaster in the process.

[Mr Sparkle]

Sparkle:

This debate has caused me to take a deeper look into what I would do if Israel was nuked by one of its enemies.

Perhaps the best route of action would be to send military forces into the countries which orchestrated these attacks and overthrow the leaders of that government. Then, the international community can put those responsible up for trial, while new elections are held in those Middle Eastern nations.

Obviously that's an "idealistic" scenario, and will probably not pan out. Any nuclear attack on Israel will be met with a nuclear attack on the attacking nation, creating a global disaster in the process.

well, yeah.
and If a nuclear attack was ever orchestrated against Israel it would be a monstrous act in and of itself.
that's why the question arose for me, why put the Jewish homeland in such a highly contested area, where different factions of the SAME religion fight against each other.
it was a bad call, and continued support for it has been also a bad call.
plus the actions of the Israelis have been to say the least a little perplexing.
sure, we cringe at the photos of Palestinian children dressed as freedom fighters or suicide bombers, but we don't bat an eyelash at Israel's compulsory military service, this is not just playing dress-up, this is actual obligatory military training from the age of 18.
plus I was kind of unsettled by your approach yesterday and was looking for a picture of Palestinian refugee camps.
I came across this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v731/mistaspakara/boy.jpg
worst thing? It was attached to an article about Israeli abuse of children in their detention camps.
now, in this ****ed up world, there's a chance that this kid was doing something dodgy or even deadly, but, what is he was just a kid?
look at their expressions, I'm half hoping it was staged.
even if it was staged, why does everyone, not just the US condemn the atrocities of one (Palestine) and not the other (Israel) sure, the Palestinians shoot rockets from civilian areas into Israel but....
have you looked at the Israeli army?
compare the two armies and ask yourself, what the hell else are they going to do? go head to head?
plus to you and I the mention of the KGB means all kinds of evil and covert badassity.
no dude, Mossad, Mossad the Israeli secret service was responsible for all kinds of international law breaking to get to Nazi war criminals, sure, the dudes were monsters, but still, victims don't get to ignore the law do they.
because frankly in the matter of the Israelis it has become a kind of unspoken rule that they get to go over any all laws in the guise of "protecting" themselves.
we have all seen the " difference between an Israeli soldier and a palestianian soldier" right?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v731/mistaspakara/soldier_israel_palestine.jpg

wow, how simple it all seems and how very heroic Israel comes off, of course the real world picture is not as flattering.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v731/mistaspakara/youngBoyagainstaslodier.jpg

granted that little dude is no baby but still.

and let us not forget the six day war, and while egypt was being kind of a dick, it doesn't mean, you can just go ahead and take their land.
after the war the Israelis destroyed three villages as punishment. and displaced a rather large amount of people.
there's evidence that the IDF went around ordering people to leave.
ordering people to leave.
can you imagine if the US ordered the Iraquis to leave and started up a little mini US in Iraq, who would support that?
but apparently, in the age old tradition of Homer-esque foreign relations
Israel seems to say " but when I do it, it's cute!"
and just for kicks google "USS liberty" and "1967" and "Israel" the results might surprise you.

[The Senator]

Both the Palestinian and Israeli militaries have a ton of problems and issues they need to work out.

But every military has that. For example, the United States military authorized the napalming of entire villages during Vietnam. Some soldiers raped women and children, others murdered entire families. Not to mention some of the atrocities we've committed in Iraq.

This doesn't make what these militaries do any more justifiable. Nor am I defending the Israeli guard, especially for what went on during the Six Day War. But really, the military isn't where my concern is. It lies with the rights and protections of the Israelis themselves, and their ability to live their lives within their own country.

[Zen]

Both the Palestinian and Israeli militaries have a ton of problems and issues they need to work out.

But every military has that. For example, the United States military authorized the napalming of entire villages during Vietnam. Some soldiers raped women and children, others murdered entire families. Not to mention some of the atrocities we've committed in Iraq.

This doesn't make what these militaries do any more justifiable. Nor am I defending the Israeli guard, especially for what went on during the Six Day War. But really, the military isn't where my concern is. It lies with the rights and protections of the Israelis themselves, and their ability to live their lives within their own country.

do the palestinians have a country?

[The Senator]

do the palestinians have a country?

No, but they should ask Saudi Arabia or Syria or any of the other Muslim nations which have advocated a Palestinian state to give up some of their land for one.

[Addendum]

But the Palestinians were there first

[Kelly]

But the Palestinians were there first

There is so much more to it than that......so much more......that your negotiators for both groups the GOI and the PA realize that during "talks" they cannot spend an enormous amount of time on the history of these two groups....

The three basic issues that have to be resolved before any talks can take place is...

1. Cease fire
2. The beginnings of a trust built...
3. Time table for talks set up....


Those are the bare basics...

The people that are a part of these talks, understand that it is impossible to move forward when looking at the past...

You need to read the Mitchell Report from the Clinton Administration....it is all explained there.

[Addendum]

I'm not even a part of the "peace process", so it's meh. I just think the only way peace will happen there is if everyone dies. Too much ingrained ignorance is in the culture of both sides

[Superman4ever]

No, but they should ask Saudi Arabia or Syria or any of the other Muslim nations which have advocated a Palestinian state to give up some of their land for one.

I hate this argument because it's not an argument, it's just a silly cop out. Pushed out of their land into refugee camps, so other Muslim countries should give into to bullying demands by the US and Israel into submitting to their desires and commands? HELL NO! There is very little I agree with when if comes to current Arab governance and judgment, but this one aspect I stand behind 100%.

This ridiculous "argument" only shifts responsibility to relegate their own guilt and to absolve responsibility to a neglected population. Pass the buck to other nations. "Why don't they take care of their own?" It's irresponsible and an unacceptable argument!

Why don't the Jews? Make a state in Uganda, where the State of Israel was originally planned Let the Zionists leave, let orthodox Jews stay for religious purposes. And forget calling the land "Israel or Palestine" and lets just call it Jerusalem.

And what about Jerusalem, which was suppose to be a neutral city, but is NOW illegally the capital of Israel? Are you going to move our holy grounds to this new state? Now only the Jewish people have the right to pray in the holy city?

[The Senator]

I hate this argument because it's not an argument, it's just a silly cop out. Pushed out of their land into refugee camps, so other Muslim countries should give into to bullying demands by the US and Israel into submitting to their desires and commands? HELL NO! There is very little I agree with when if comes to current Arab governance and judgment, but this one aspect I stand behind 100%.

How is it a cop out? If these nations advocate a Palestinian state, why can't they carve a state which shares a border with Israel out of their own land? Syria has plenty of land available-- much more than Israel. They could simply give up some of its farm land or desert to the Palestinians. The As-Suwayda province is fairly large and has less inhabitants than Wyoming. I'm sure the Palestinians could get along with the Druze people who inhabit the region.


This ridiculous "argument" only shifts responsibility to relegate their own guilt and to absolve responsibility to a neglected population. Pass the buck to other nations. "Why don't they take care of their own?" It's irresponsible and an unacceptable argument!

It's not all that irresponsible, nor is it unacceptable. The argument against Israel is that the Palestinians don't have their own state, that they've been displaced and wish to return. Well, why don't the neighboring Muslim nations which have long supported Palestine carve out a small chunk of their land for a Palestinian state? If it's done in the As-Suwayda province of Syria, it could theoretically border Israel, where the Palestinians wouldn't be all that far from Jerusalem and what have you. Not to mention there are other possible locations for a Palestinian state which doesn't include kicking the Israelis off their land, causing another international crisis in the process.


Why don't the Jews? Make a state in Uganda, where the State of Israel was originally planned Let the Zionists leave, let orthodox Jews stay for religious purposes. And forget calling the land "Israel or Palestine" and lets just call it Jerusalem.

Well, it's quite simple: The Jews are there now. The same argument you used against kicking the Palestinians off their land sixty years ago can be applied to the Jews today. If you displace the Israelis, you're still displacing millions and millions of people. You'll replace one international crisis with another.

You can argue back and forth all the way to the dawn of time over whose land it was first. But the only way to confront this problem is to ignore that, because both sides will be able to say they had the land first. The Jews can say they had it hundreds/ thousands of years ago. The Palestinians can say they had it sixty years ago. You aren't going to make any progress if you keep pointing to the other side and say "well, we had it first!"


And what about Jerusalem, which was suppose to be a neutral city, but is NOW illegally the capital of Israel? Are you going to move our holy grounds to this new state? Now only the Jewish people have the right to pray in the holy city?

That's a fairly good point. The international community would have to work something out where Jerusalem could go back to being neutral. I don't know what that would be, but Jerusalem's lack of neutrality is hardly the justification for kicking the Israelis out. After all, Jerusalem is an Israeli holy city as well. As is the entire state of Israel, really. In a perfect world, they would have figured out a way to carve Israel in two, giving one half to the Palestinians and the other to the Israelis. But as long as the Palestinians murder Israelis, and the Israelis oppress the Palestinians, that in all likelihood will never happen.

[Addendum]

I'm not saying kick the Israelis out to make a Palestinian state, nor should the Palestinians be kicked out. It should have been divided between the 2 groups. But nothing will change there

[bell110]

How is it a cop out? If these nations advocate a Palestinian state, why can't they carve a state which shares a border with Israel out of their own land? Syria has plenty of land available-- much more than Israel. They could simply give up some of its farm land or desert to the Palestinians. The As-Suwayda province is fairly large and has less inhabitants than Wyoming. I'm sure the Palestinians could get along with the Druze people who inhabit the region.

But then you have to get the Druze people to go along with the fact that they no longer live in Syria, and their new country will be Palestine. It doesn't fix the problem and only creates a new one. Same with any country who gives up a piece of their land, when in actually they shouldn't have to do.

It's not all that irresponsible, nor is it unacceptable. The argument against Israel is that the Palestinians don't have their own state, that they've been displaced and wish to return. Well, why don't the neighboring Muslim nations which have long supported Palestine carve out a small chunk of their land for a Palestinian state? If it's done in the As-Suwayda province of Syria, it could theoretically border Israel, where the Palestinians wouldn't be all that far from Jerusalem and what have you. Not to mention there are other possible locations for a Palestinian state which doesn't include kicking the Israelis off their land, causing another international crisis in the process.

Like I said, it doesn't fix the problem and only creates a new one. You seem to come up with solutions that least inconveniences Israel.

Well, it's quite simple: The Jews are there now. The same argument you used against kicking the Palestinians off their land sixty years ago can be applied to the Jews today. If you displace the Israelis, you're still displacing millions and millions of people. You'll replace one international crisis with another.

Well, to quote you from earlier, if that were to happen, the Israelis should just "get over it", should they not?

You can argue back and forth all the way to the dawn of time over whose land it was first. But the only way to confront this problem is to ignore that, because both sides will be able to say they had the land first. The Jews can say they had it hundreds/ thousands of years ago. The Palestinians can say they had it sixty years ago. You aren't going to make any progress if you keep pointing to the other side and say "well, we had it first!"

That's a fairly good point. The international community would have to work something out where Jerusalem could go back to being neutral. I don't know what that would be, but Jerusalem's lack of neutrality is hardly the justification for kicking the Israelis out. After all, Jerusalem is an Israeli holy city as well. As is the entire state of Israel, really. In a perfect world, they would have figured out a way to carve Israel in two, giving one half to the Palestinians and the other to the Israelis. But as long as the Palestinians murder Israelis, and the Israelis oppress the Palestinians, that in all likelihood will never happen.

Even if they did carve Palestine into two, the Israelis would still illegally expand it's borders, as they have done in the past.

It's hard for me to feel sorry for the Israelis because of their arrogant sense of self-entitlement. They HAVE to have the land where the Palestinians lived, and Jerusalem HAS to be it's capitol, all because GOD said so. Their is no room for compromise, and anyone who doesn't agree with it is labeled an antisemite. They can aggressively pursue their goals, and if anyone fights back, they throw the "victim" card. And America backs them 100% almost every single time. I feel bad for the Jews that people think they are the cause of all the problems in the world, yet ironically, the existence of Israel is a major cause of a lot of problems for muslims and for ourselves.

[The Senator]

It's hard for me to feel sorry for the Israelis because of their arrogant sense of self-entitlement. They HAVE to have the land where the Palestinians lived, and Jerusalem HAS to be it's capitol, all because GOD said so. Their is no room for compromise, and anyone who doesn't agree with it is labeled an antisemite. They can aggressively pursue their goals, and if anyone fights back, they throw the "victim" card. And America backs them 100% almost every single time. I feel bad for the Jews that people think they are the cause of all the problems in the world, yet ironically, the existence of Israel is a major cause of a lot of problems for muslims and for ourselves.

Yet, you feel sorry for the Palestinians, which have murdered innocent civilians over the past sixty years? You feel sorry for the Palestinians, which have launched rockets into crowded neighborhoods and have co-sponsored terrorism which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of Israelis? You think its acceptable for Palestinian terrorists to strap bombs to themselves, enter a crowded marketplace or a get on a crowded bus, and blow themselves up in the process?

Yeah, those evil Israelis. They certainly deserve to die because of this :whatever:

[bell110]

Yet, you feel sorry for the Palestinians, which have murdered innocent civilians over the past sixty years? You feel sorry for the Palestinians, which have launched rockets into crowded neighborhoods and have co-sponsored terrorism which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of Israelis? You think its acceptable for Palestinian terrorists to strap bombs to themselves, enter a crowded marketplace or a get on a crowded bus, and blow themselves up in the process?

Yeah, those evil Israelis. They certainly deserve to die because of this :whatever:

The Israelis are no better than the Palestinians. They've killed innocent people as well. Just because they have a national military doesn't make their action any less atrocious. Maybe if we armed the Palestinians as well as we've armed the Israelis, it would be a fair fight.

So, since neither of their actions are right, for me it comes down to one thing; the Israelis should NOT be there.

[Superman4ever]

It's not all that irresponsible, nor is it unacceptable. The argument against Israel is that the Palestinians don't have their own state, that they've been displaced and wish to return.

Well, it's quite simple: The Jews are there now. The same argument you used against kicking the Palestinians off their land sixty years ago can be applied to the Jews today. If you displace the Israelis, you're still displacing millions and millions of people. You'll replace one international crisis with another.

This "solution" of creating another state is an impossibility, which the majority of the International community (INCLUDING this administration dismisses as nonsensical, and I refuse to argue it, it's silly!) and would create more problems.

The Israelis shouldn't be "kicked-out" NOR should the Palestinians.

The problem with your arguments is that you think a 2 state solution would cause a diaspora. Or that the international community is asking for the Jewish population to completely vacate. THAT. IS. NOT. THE. CASE.

A 2-state solution is VERY possible in the land there now. Once a sense of security is established by both sides it is VERY, VERY possible. We just need to get over the silly bickering and stop concentrating on imaginary absolutism. "If there is a Palestinian state then the Jews have to leave?" That's nonsensical. No one but the extremist are asking to "push them to the sea", but the Palestinians should NOT under any circumstance pick up and move voluntarily. They're having there land stolen everyday...land that can be proven through land deeds is theirs.

Israel HAS to stop stealing land for "settlements", walls or whatever illegal excuse they chose to name it. Each day they're cutting off more and more from the West Bank and Gaza. The "settlements" ARE illegal under international law and some type of solution would need to come from that.

I think both sides are very much willing for a 2-state solution, but we need to move past these silly hypothetical questions. They lead nowhere.

Yet, you feel sorry for the Palestinians, which have murdered innocent civilians over the past sixty years? You feel sorry for the Palestinians, which have launched rockets into crowded neighborhoods and have co-sponsored terrorism which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of Israelis? You think its acceptable for Palestinian terrorists to strap bombs to themselves, enter a crowded marketplace or a get on a crowded bus, and blow themselves up in the process?

Yeah, those evil Israelis. They certainly deserve to die because of this :whatever:

Israel was founded by terrorism and well known terrorists. Menachem Begin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin) and Ingrun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun) (now Likud) for instance. They were identified by the British, our allies at the time and now, as terrorists. The UN also considered them terrorist.

So if an Israeli kills an innocent person it's OK or defensible?

I agree that Palestinian terrorism has lead to the death of many (hundreds) of Israelis. However to ignore the thousands of innocent Palestinians that have died is, IMO, cruel and unfair.

Terrorism on BOTH sides is indefensible and should be adamantly denounced. You can't just say the Palestinians are the terrorists and ignore human-rights violations by the Israelis. State-sponsored terrorism (i.e. over aggressive "defense" via US missiles, tanks and war planes) that leaves dozens, even hundreds, dead within a few moments is ALSO terrorism. And collateral damage is NOT an excuse.

[The Senator]

The Israelis are no better than the Palestinians. They've killed innocent people as well. Just because they have a national military doesn't make their action any less atrocious. Maybe if we armed the Palestinians as well as we've armed the Israelis, it would be a fair fight.

So, since neither of their actions are right, for me it comes down to one thing; the Israelis should NOT be there.

You're taking this situation as if most of the Israelis who live there have a choice to be there. You do realize that Israel was formed in 1948, correct? That most middle-aged and young adults in Israel were born there? That most of those currently alive did not decide whether to live there at all?

So in addition to those evil Jews who moved there back in the late 1940s and early 1950s, you want to kick the 60% or so out who had no control over being there in the first place?

I find it rather... strange?... that you want to kick the Israelis out of Israel, yet you are so upset that the Palestinians lost their land. You think it would be perfectly justified to displace millions upon millions of Israelis, just so the Palestinians can have their land back... the same reasons used to get the Jews their land in the first place...

I mean, it could go on and on like that... kick the Jews out, the Jews claim they were kicked off their land... kick the Palestinians out, the Palestinians claim they were kicked off their land... maybe we should let the Jews occupy Israel for ten years, then we can let the Palestinians occupy it the following ten years, and so on and so forth? Considering both sides have a pretty fair argument... why not do it that way?

[Addendum]

Or better yet, how about both sides grow the **** up and get civilised

[The Senator]

This "solution" of creating another state is an impossibility, which the majority of the International community (INCLUDING this administration dismisses as nonsensical, and I refuse to argue it, it's silly!) and would create more problems.

Then if creating another state is an impossibility, shouldn't the Palestinians vacate to another country altogether? I mean, Iran supports the Palestinians adamantly... I don't see why Iran wouldn't open its doors and let them live them...


The Israelis shouldn't be "kicked-out" NOR should the Palestinians.

The problem with your arguments is that you think a 2 state solution would cause a diaspora. Or that the international community is asking for the Jewish population to completely vacate. THAT. IS. NOT. THE. CASE.

A 2-state solution is VERY possible in the land there now. Once a sense of security is established by both sides it is VERY, VERY possible. We just need to get over the silly bickering and stop concentrating on imaginary absolutism. "If there is a Palestinian state then the Jews have to leave?" That's nonsensical. No one but the extremist are asking to "push them to the sea", but the Palestinians should NOT under any circumstance pick up and move voluntarily. They're having there land stolen everyday...land that can be proven through land deeds is theirs.

Exactly. If you want to create a Palestinian state, you need to work something out with the Israelis. On the Israelis' terms, of course, considering the land which would be spared for a Palestinian state would come from land already owned by Israel. If not, then they ought to consult other countries such as Syria or Jordan or Saudi Arabia and ask them if they can carve a state out of their country. And if that isn't an option, they should give up and resettle elsewhere.

Bickering over who owned Palestine/ Israel first is completely pointless... since it dates back to the dawn of creation...


Israel HAS to stop stealing land for "settlements", walls or whatever illegal excuse they chose to name it. Each day they're cutting off more and more from the West Bank and Gaza. The "settlements" ARE illegal under international law and some type of solution would need to come from that.

I think both sides are very much willing for a 2-state solution, but we need to move past these silly hypothetical questions. They lead nowhere.

I agree with you. If we move beyond the whole "Well we had it first!" mentality, a deal may be brokered. If the Palestinians stop attacking the Israelis, then something might be worked out as well. But nothing's going to change if people keep arguing "well we had it first!" and follow that argument up with a mortar attack.


Israel was founded by terrorism and well known terrorists. Menachem Begin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin) and Ingrun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun) (now Likud) for instance. They were identified by the British, our allies at the time and now, as terrorists. The UN also considered them terrorist.

Right. You had some terrorist leaders in Israel. But what about leaders such as Golda Meir? Or Yitzhak Shamir? Or how about the new guy, Shimon peres? For every leader in Israel who supported state-sponsored terrorism, you can find a handful of others who made efforts to work away from that.

I mean, I could point to a handful of Palestinian terrorists, such as Yasser Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, but what good with that do?


So if an Israeli kills an innocent person it's OK or defensible?

That depends. If the deaths are done militarily, then so be it-- those deaths are just a casualty of war. If an Israeli killed a Palestinian and it was not during a time of war, then it would indefensible.


I agree that Palestinian terrorism has lead to the death of many (hundreds) of Israelis. However to ignore the thousands of innocent Palestinians that have died is, IMO, cruel and unfair.

I'm not ignoring the Israeli-sponsored terrorism. But I think it's a petty argument to say "Oh, those poor, innocent, oppressed Palestinians have been such good people for the past sixty years-- we should reward them!" when a fair amount of them have participated in terroristic activities against the Israeli government, or innocent Israeli citizens who really don't have all that much to do with what's going on between the two sides, except for the fact that they were born in Israel and are Jewish, essentially putting a giant target over their heads...


Terrorism on BOTH sides is indefensible and should be adamantly denounced. You can't just say the Palestinians are the terrorists and ignore human-rights violations by the Israelis.

I agree. Both sides are guilty of committing indefensible acts.

State-sponsored terrorism (i.e. over aggressive "defense" via US missiles, tanks and war planes) that leaves dozens, even hundreds, dead within a few moments is ALSO terrorism. And collateral damage is NOT an excuse.

So.... military action = terrorism? I don't think that's written in international law...

[EdRyder]

^ In regards to the last few comments between you guys here.I feel the need to point out that Arafat in particular had ultimately no control whatsoever over Palestinian terrorist acts..One of the many reasons why Camp David talks broke down.He couldn't deliver without the control.

[The Senator]

^ In regards to the last few comments between you guys here.I feel the need to point out that Arafat in particular had ultimately no control whatsoever over Palestinian terrorist acts..One of the many reasons why Camp David talks broke down.He couldn't deliver without the control.

Right.

And Menachem Begin wasn't a terrorist, either. He was a leader faced with several decisions: Whether to prevent Iraq from obtaining nuclear weapons, whether to keep the PLO from lobbing rockets into Israel, and whether to prevent Lebanon from further hindering the peace and security within the Israeli territory.

It depends on your definition of 'terrorist.' In my humble opinion, Menachem Begin was faced with many tough decisions during his tenure as Prime Minister. Unfortunately, the ways in which he went about taking care of those decisions, in some instances, were fatally flawed. So it's all a matter of perspective...

[Superman4ever]

Right.

And Menachem Begin wasn't a terrorist, either. He was a leader faced with several decisions: Whether to prevent Iraq from obtaining nuclear weapons, whether to keep the PLO from lobbing rockets into Israel, and whether to prevent Lebanon from further hindering the peace and security within the Israeli territory.

It depends on your definition of 'terrorist.' In my humble opinion, Menachem Begin was faced with many tough decisions during his tenure as Prime Minister. Unfortunately, the ways in which he went about taking care of those decisions, in some instances, were fatally flawed. So it's all a matter of perspective...

I don't consider him a terrorist for the Iraq bombing. I consider him a terrorist, many do, because of King David Hotel bombing. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing) Among others.

Damn it to hell! INGRUN was condemned by the Wold Zionist Congress as a terrorist group!
(http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30B12FC3D591B7B93C6AB1789D95F42 8485F9&scp=13&sq=Irgun+terrorist+president&st=p) What MORE do you need to be convinced that HE IS A TERRORIST? Don't you DARE try to change the definition of terrorism because you find it uncomfortable. An Arab shoots up a place and he's automatically a terrorist (not a criminal or loony, terrorist!) Hell if they say something that could be misinterpreted they're sent off to gitmo. This war criminal (Begin) killed hundreds of innocent civilians and was condemned by the very people who pushed for a Jewish homeland (World Zionist Congress), the UN, the British (the list goes on) as a terrorist, but you're going to ask us to reevaluate what is terrorism?

Are you telling me that your views are so ultra-hardcore that you would side yourself with a terrorist who willingly killed innocent civilians to achieve a means? Take the question in reverse. If I supported Hamas terrorism for the creation of a Palestinian state (which for the sake of clarity, I DON'T -- I can't stress this enough. THIS IS ONLY HYPOTHETICAL!) what would you say of me then? They have to resist somehow, right? Palestinians are being slaughtered by the dozen and any condemnation of the oppressor is silenced as anti-Semitic, pro-terrorism rhetoric. How many Jews were being slaughtered by the Palestinians in 1946 to justify terrorism?

Are you really going to question the definition of terrorism to justify your opinion?

You can't have it both ways. Either you're against terrorism or for it. There is NO middle ground to this situation. NONE. You kill an innocent civilian willingly and with intent it's terrorism. It's wrong and an indefensible crime against humanity. Begin is such a criminal.

[Zen]

i have taken a few mideast history classes... aside from focusing on the ottoman empire, they did touch on Israel and palestine.

the classes in no way make me an expert obviously... but i see the issue as a balanced problem.

both sides have done things that are atrocious... i think the only thing that will heal that wound is time. did israel recently (as in a few years ago) cede some land to palestinians? i would like to see a seperate israelii state and a seperate palestine state carved out of the current israel... whatever land palestinians are currently on... cant we call that palestine?

i dont think this issue will be resolved untill a few generations get buried of natural causes on both sides.

[MetalloX]

Because the Jewish people have been persecuted long throughout the history of the world. Because for centuries, there were few places a Jew could live without the risk of being brutally murdered, en masse, by those they lived amongst. Be it Russia two hundred years ago, to Germany and Eastern Europe seventy years ago, the Jewish people have been scapegoated by other cultures as being the root of all evil.

Israel was created to give Jews a homeland-- a country where they could live without the fear of bring crushed by the societies they lived amongst. We, the United States, helped form Israel as a way to give the Jewish people the freedom we ourselves once sought.

Regardless of our politics, we have a responsibility to support these people. The Jewish people are a fundamentally good people. They live and breathe and bleed like all of us. In the past sixty years, Israel has become a country on its own, where millions live and operate in their everyday lives.

Yet, hate-filled terrorists like that scumbag Mahmoud Ahmadinejad feel its justified to wipe Israel off the map because they kicked the Palestinians away from their homeland. The Palestinians were screwed. But it was an unfortunate occurrence which our generation has no control over. What are we going to do now, destroy a nation we helped build so we can prove the Islamo-Fascists that we want to please them? What's the rational argument we have now? "Oh, we don't want to be attacked anymore... here, have Israel to yourselves, guys!"

I think a Palestinian state is long overdue. But I think Israel warrants our protection and our resources. I have many Jewish friends. My boyfriend is Jewish. One of my friends is an Israeli-American with dual citizenship. I know the plight many of these folks have dealt with, not throughout history, but currently.

When I hear stories of Palestinian terrorists lobbing rockets into residential communities, killing innocent civilians which had nothing to do with their exile, that's proof enough that Israel deserves our protection. When I hear of Palestinian terrorists strapping bombs to their chests and blowing up buses or marketplaces, that alone merits our protection and our support. Israel has become a scapegoat to the terrorists who inhabit the Middle East. It is our responsibility to prove that Democracy and religious freedom is prevalent over all else. It is our duty to protect a people who have become history's punching bag.

If Israel is annihilated by those nutjobs in the Middle East, I for one advocate a complete nuclear assault on the entire Middle East.

An idiotic hillary supporter supporting killing palestinians,say it aint so - let me guess the only reason you hate obama is so that he wont support your discusting genocide,Right? Oh no wait he's a far-right christian 'Closet Muslim' who wants to turn the United States into an Islamic nation.

[The Senator]

An idiotic hillary supporter supporting killing palestinians,say it aint so - let me guess the only reason you hate obama is so that he wont support your discusting genocide,Right? Oh no wait he's a far-right christian 'Closet Muslim' who wants to turn the United States into an Islamic nation.

Um... I've had these views on Israel for about two years now...

And the reason why I hate Obama has nothing to do with what crazy secrets he may be hiding. As I've said in several other threads, someone's religious affiliation has zero effect over who I vote for. I've voted for Christians, Jews and atheists in my short tenure as a registered voter.

And, as has been explained already, my "genocidal views" have been completely taken out of context, and I've since changed my views as Mr. Sparkle has convinced me how ignorant they partially were.

Learn to read more than a few pages :up:

[Ancracks]

As bad as it's been for the Jewish people, we shouldn't be giving any people a homeland by kicking another people out of their homeland. Doing justice by committing injustice is never the solution.

[Kelly]

As bad as it's been for the Jewish people, we shouldn't be giving any people a homeland by kicking another people out of their homeland. Doing justice by committing injustice is never the solution.

Well that would be a debate with the UN.......:yay:

[Gamma Ray]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/1448/660pxflagofisraelsvgvp2.png

Yom Ha'atzmaut (Hebrew: יום העצמאות‎ yom hā-‘aṣmā’ūṯ), is the national independence day, commemorates the declaration of independence of Israel in 1948.


Hooray for Israel!

[The Senator]

Here's to 60 more :up:

[Rando Aces]

yay for countries!

[Catman]

I wish I cared. :o

[bored]

Happy birthday, Ha'aretz! Hopefully I'll be visiting you again in December!

[Gamma Ray]

I wish I cared. :o


I wish you didn't troll threads.

[Superman4ever]

I thought this was weird.

Norman Finkelstein is a prominent critic of Israeli policy who was obtained by security forces in Israel (on the 23rd), held and questioned for 24 hours and then deported (banned from returning for 10 years).

I don't understand why the government acted the way they did. There are plenty of anti-Zionists in Israel, some more outspoken than others, are they going to deport them? The Knesset has over a dozen (that's at least 10% of elected officials) whom are VERY outspoken critics of Israeli policy regarding the treatment of Palestine, Palestinians and the continuing illegal seizure of land.

Israel usually touts freedom of speech, religion, expression (they have gay pride parades in Jerusalem, for G-d's sakes); they have a wonderful democracy (that trumps ours 100-fold) yet they banned an American intellect who is critical of them? This type of behavior should be below them.

Are they going to ban ANY one who is critical of their policies now?

Shin Bet detains, deports Jewish-American professor, Israel critic
By Yossi Melman
Tags: Israel

The Shin Bet security service detained and deported a Jewish-American professor who is a prominent critic of the Israeli occupation when he landed at Ben-Gurion International Airport on Friday.

Professor Norman Finkelstein was interrogated for several hours and held in an airport cell before being put on a plane back to Amsterdam, his point of departure. Finkelstein said he was told he could not return to Israel for 10 years.

The Shin Bet said Finkelstein "is not permitted to enter Israel because of suspicions involving hostile elements in Lebanon," and because he "did not give a full accounting to interrogators with regard to these suspicions."
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However, in e-mail and phone interviews with Haaretz from the Amsterdam airport after he was deported, Finkelstein said, "I did my best to provide absolutely candid and comprehensive answers to all the questions put to me. I am confident that I have nothing to hide. Apart from my political views, and the supporting scholarship, there isn't much more to say for myself: alas, no suicide missions or secret rendezvous with terrorist organizations."

He added, "I support the two-state solution based on the '67 borders and I told my interrogators I'm not an enemy of Israel."

Finkelstein visited Lebanon a few months ago and met with Hezbollah operatives there, and subsequently published articles.

Finkelstein, 55, has accused Israel of exploiting the Holocaust for political ends. He recently left DePaul University following pressure by Jewish organizations and individuals, including Professor Alan Dershowitz.

He also said in the interview that he was "en route to Palestine to see one of my oldest and dearest friends, Musa Abu-Hashhash."

Finkelstein said he was asked whether he had met with Al Qaida operatives, whether he had been sent to Israel by Hezbollah and how he intended to finance his stay in Israel.

"I was kept in a holding cell at the airport for approximately 24 hours. It wasn't a Belgian bed-and-breakfast, but it wasn't Auschwitz either. I had several unpleasant moments with the guards at the airport and in the holding cell, but since martyrdom is not my cup of tea, I'll spare you the details," Finkelstein said.

He said he eventually used a cellphone belonging to another detainee and called another friend he was scheduled to see in Israel, the journalist Allan Nairn, who called attorney Michael Sfard. Sfard met with Finkelstein and told him he could appeal the ban; however, Finkelstein said he has been to Israel at least 15 times and declined to appeal.

Sfard yesterday said banning Finkelstein from entering the country "recalls the behavior of the Soviet bloc countries."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/986571.html

[Midnyte_Sun]

I normally would stay away from this debate, but this video is hard to pass up since a picture is worth a thousand words. I guess this year (or maybe last year) an Israeli Human Rights (B'Tselem) group started passing out videocameras to Palestinians living nearby to settlements so they can show any crimes done to them by settlers.

The video can be viewed here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/jul/30/beaumont.palestine


--

Honestly, why the F&CK are we giving billions of dollars over to them? In terms of investment, what have we got in return?

[kainedamo]

I normally would stay away from this debate, but this video is hard to pass up since a picture is worth a thousand words. I guess this year (or maybe last year) an Israeli Human Rights (B'Tselem) group started passing out videocameras to Palestinians living nearby to settlements so they can show any crimes done to them by settlers.

The video can be viewed here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/jul/30/beaumont.palestine

This is the kind of thing that goes on behind the scenes that doesn't get that much attention from the media. It's only when bombs fly that the world actually takes notice. But in the mean time, the Palestinians get oppressed. That doesn't excuse killing innocent civilians, but both sides do that. It is not only one side that is the victim. However, I do see the Israelis as the aggressors.

The Palestinians need their own state.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Im kind of ignorant on the situation there, but arent Palestinians and Jordanians all Arabs? Why don't Arabs just give them a part of their land for the Palestinians and let the Palestinians keep the Gaza strip.

Problem solved.

[Kelly]

Jordan definitely has a stake in all of this, as does Syria......its far more than a Jew vs. Arab situation.

[Superman4ever]

Im kind of ignorant on the situation there, but arent Palestinians and Jordanians all Arabs? Why don't Arabs just give them a part of their land for the Palestinians and let the Palestinians keep the Gaza strip.

Problem solved.

No. No. NO! This is one of the policies of Arab nations that I actually agree with, actually this is most likely the ONLY one. If the Palestinian were to be given land by other Arab states than this in effect would send two messages: That the Arabs concede to Israel, and that Israel's violations would be forgiven. Moreover, the land dictated to Jordan and Syria was part of the British mandate, so not only do we rob Palestinian land, now we're to steal land from recognized nations to "solve the problem".

No. That would mean the 4-6 million displaced Palestinians, who have been living in refugee camps since before '46, would remain voiceless, forever. That Palestinians who were forcefully removed then and NOW, who have documented proof in deeds, land surveys, etc. of land that was illegally removed from them would be, what...what happens to them? That the forceful removal of Palestinians from Jerusalem would be forgiven. That the continuing growth of illegal "settlements" would be absolved. Gaza has been "freed" of occupation but has anyone read up on the West Bank? It's convenient how silenced the news in the media has been on the West Bank?

I have NO problem whatsoever with a Jewish state/identity, but not at the sake of equality and fairness. Israel is NOT, no matter how the media tries to spin it, innocent in this whole situation. They committed countless acts of an illegal nature (has more UN resolutions against it than ANY other nation EVER) from forceful removal of national, land grabbing to terrorism (state sponsored and not) to apartheid. That it has more resolutions against it than Iran, Iraq and N. Korea combined does not send any bells as to what's happening over there?

And to those that want to argue that Israel is NOT an apartheid then try explaining that 70% of the poorest towns/cities in Israel are the "Arab" parts. Bringing in the occupied territories makes the case for Apartheid even more incriminating.

[Spider-Bite]

Um... I've had these views on Israel for about two years now...

And the reason why I hate Obama has nothing to do with what crazy secrets he may be hiding. As I've said in several other threads, someone's religious affiliation has zero effect over who I vote for. I've voted for Christians, Jews and atheists in my short tenure as a registered voter.

And, as has been explained already, my "genocidal views" have been completely taken out of context, and I've since changed my views as Mr. Sparkle has convinced me how ignorant they partially were.

Learn to read more than a few pages :up:

who is the atheist you voted for?

[Spider-Bite]

I believe that we should continue our alliance with Israel, but we need to let them know that our support will not be unconditional. There should be conditions, such as no more building on the neutral zone. They must use restraint with their foriegn policy, and not engage in attacks such as the one they rescently waged on Lebannon. We need to give them certain rules they must follow in order for our alliance to continue.

This statement is not an edorsement of abandoning them. It's an endorsement of putting pressure on them to help preserve the peace instead of instigating and antagonizing others. The pressure would work. Israel certainly does not want to lose our support. They would clean up their act, if they thought we had a President who wasn't going to give them the green light to kill whoever they want to kill.

I want Israel to prosper. They have a democracy. I'd rather live there than any other country in the middle east.

[Midnyte_Sun]

If there was any place to live in the Middle East, my bet would be with Dubai or Morrocco. Israel has as much as a democracy as Iraq or Afghanistan IMO. Whats the point of voting when your polling booth is a target?

No thanks.

[Midnyte_Sun]

No. No. NO! This is one of the policies of Arab nations that I actually agree with, actually this is most likely the ONLY one. If the Palestinian were to be given land by other Arab states than this in effect would send two messages: That the Arabs concede to Israel, and that Israel's violations would be forgiven. Moreover, the land dictated to Jordan and Syria was part of the British mandate, so not only do we rob Palestinian land, now we're to steal land from recognized nations to "solve the problem".

No. That would mean the 4-6 million displaced Palestinians, who have been living in refugee camps since before '46, would remain voiceless, forever. That Palestinians who were forcefully removed then and NOW, who have documented proof in deeds, land surveys, etc. of land that was illegally removed from them would be, what...what happens to them? That the forceful removal of Palestinians from Jerusalem would be forgiven. That the continuing growth of illegal "settlements" would be absolved. Gaza has been "freed" of occupation but has anyone read up on the West Bank? It's convenient how silenced the news in the media has been on the West Bank?

I have NO problem whatsoever with a Jewish state/identity, but not at the sake of equality and fairness. Israel is NOT, no matter how the media tries to spin it, innocent in this whole situation. They committed countless acts of an illegal nature (has more UN resolutions against it than ANY other nation EVER) from forceful removal of national, land grabbing to terrorism (state sponsored and not) to apartheid. That it has more resolutions against it than Iran, Iraq and N. Korea combined does not send any bells as to what's happening over there?

And to those that want to argue that Israel is NOT an apartheid then try explaining that 70% of the poorest towns/cities in Israel are the "Arab" parts. Bringing in the occupied territories makes the case for Apartheid even more incriminating.

Lets face it, the Israelis have an iron grip on everything the Palestinians do. Just look at the video I posted above. Dont look to the Western world for support, because they're the ones who got them in the mess. I say let the Arabs deal with this problem, and accept the millions of refugees in Jordan (they are after all Arabs) and make their peace with Israel and keep the Gaza strip. As for Jerusalem, let that be a neutral zone under UN mandate until negotiations can make sure that all Religious groups right to practice is respected and kept. Who cares what government it falls under as long as the Gold Mosque is kept secure, the Wall is protected, and the Christian churches are respected.

Even if Israel makes its peace with the Palestinians, they will still be a pariah state in the Middle East and the Palestinians will dominate them in terms of population, and even economy if the Arabs can get past their petty differences and unite.

[The Overlord]

No. No. NO! This is one of the policies of Arab nations that I actually agree with, actually this is most likely the ONLY one. If the Palestinian were to be given land by other Arab states than this in effect would send two messages: That the Arabs concede to Israel, and that Israel's violations would be forgiven. Moreover, the land dictated to Jordan and Syria was part of the British mandate, so not only do we rob Palestinian land, now we're to steal land from recognized nations to "solve the problem".

No. That would mean the 4-6 million displaced Palestinians, who have been living in refugee camps since before '46, would remain voiceless, forever. That Palestinians who were forcefully removed then and NOW, who have documented proof in deeds, land surveys, etc. of land that was illegally removed from them would be, what...what happens to them? That the forceful removal of Palestinians from Jerusalem would be forgiven. That the continuing growth of illegal "settlements" would be absolved. Gaza has been "freed" of occupation but has anyone read up on the West Bank? It's convenient how silenced the news in the media has been on the West Bank?

I have NO problem whatsoever with a Jewish state/identity, but not at the sake of equality and fairness. Israel is NOT, no matter how the media tries to spin it, innocent in this whole situation. They committed countless acts of an illegal nature (has more UN resolutions against it than ANY other nation EVER) from forceful removal of national, land grabbing to terrorism (state sponsored and not) to apartheid. That it has more resolutions against it than Iran, Iraq and N. Korea combined does not send any bells as to what's happening over there?

And to those that want to argue that Israel is NOT an apartheid then try explaining that 70% of the poorest towns/cities in Israel are the "Arab" parts. Bringing in the occupied territories makes the case for Apartheid even more incriminating.

If I was in charge, I persoanlly would likely stop giving aid to Israel, , I don't think they need aid so they should get off the doll.

What about the right of return though, you give them the houses in Israel proper and Israelis who weren't around in 1948 will lose their homes and be pissed off over it. Mixing two groups that hate each other even more is not a good idea. The two state solution should be just the Palestians get their state and stay in it and the Israelis get their state and stay in it. The two states should seperate so you don't have people who hate each other living right besides each other.

Plus the Palestinains want more support from the West, they should stop acting stupid. Israel has more to gain from a war then they do, so they should Gandhi style tactics, then they would likely gain more support from the West. I mean no one in the west hates the Dalai Lama, which the Tibet movement has way better PR then the Palestinians. The palestinains have no chance against Israel in conflict, so blowing up Israelis just serves to provoke another war with israel, one they cannot win. logic would dictate that non violent resistance would be better for them, but they haven't realized that and thus are doomed to fail.

[Tigerking]

I think we should first open direct talks with Hamas. Yes they carry out acts of terrorism, but they were democratically elected by the Palestinian people. By not opening talks with them we are going against our values of democracy that we are spreading in the world.

[The Overlord]

I think we should first open direct talks with Hamas. Yes they carry out acts of terrorism, but they were democratically elected by the Palestinian people. By not opening talks with them we are going against our values of democracy that we are spreading in the world.

Hamas is also bat **** insane. Reemmber that show wthey made with a Mickey Mouse knock off encouraginfg kids to become suicide bombers. That's not a sign of a reasonable party. There is more to Democracy then elections, there has to be rule of law, a stable society, pluralism, etc. Hitler was elected but that didn't make his government Democratic.

If Hamas wants to be taken seriously they should act like reasonable people.

[Tigerking]

Hamas is also bat **** insane. Reemmber that show wthey made with a Mickey Mouse knock off encouraginfg kids to become suicide bombers. That's not a sign of a reasonable party. There is more to Democracy then elections, there has to be rule of law, a stable society, pluralism, etc. Hitler was elected but that didn't make his government Democratic.

If Hamas wants to be taken seriously they should act like reasonable people.

Regardless if they are crazy or not, they are still the elected goverment of the Palestinian people. Democracy is basically rule of the people, and Hamas is the party that the people there have chosen. Not opening talks with them is not opening talks with most of the Palestinan people. Plus, there are probably many goveremnts out there that think we are bat crazy and not reasonable but they still have to talk with us.

[The Overlord]

Regardless if they are crazy or not, they are still the elected goverment of the Palestinian people. Democracy is basically rule of the people, and Hamas is the party that the people there have chosen. Not opening talks with them is not opening talks with most of the Palestinan people. Plus, there are probably many goveremnts out there that think we are bat crazy and not reasonable but they still have to talk with us.

No that's mob rule, not democracy, unless you have pluralism, a stable society and the rule of law. If the US public elected a racist party that passed all sort of racist laws , the US would no longer be a democratic society. a democracy has to respect everyone's rights, not just the majority's.

Yes and most people hate Bush, they talk to him because they have to, not because they want to. Hamas doesn't have the power to make such demands.

[The Senator]

who is the atheist you voted for?

The candidate for state assembly in my home district.

[Tigerking]

No that's mob rule, not democracy, unless you have pluralism, a stable society and the rule of law. If the US public elected a racist party that passed all sort of racist laws , the US would no longer be a democratic society. a democracy has to respect everyone's rights, not just the majority's.

Yes and most people hate Bush, they talk to him because they have to, not because they want to. Hamas doesn't have the power to make such demands.

I dont think Hamas has any laws against Jews, but I'm not sure. I also didnt say Hamas has the power to make demands, yet they still have the power to be included in negotians. They were still elected to power. Also by your definition of democracy, the USA has not been a democratic society until the last 60-50 years.

[kainedamo]

Rich westerners are in, poor Ethiopians are out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/19/judaism.middleeast

The Israeli government's decision to halt immigration from Ethiopia prompted angry scenes in Jerusalem on Sunday, during a protest outside the prime minister's house. Around 5,000 demonstrators voiced their condemnation of the authorities' actions, with the chairman of the Organisation of Ethiopian Immigrants in Israel describing the situation as "a crime against Zionism, and the original Zionist idea of saving Jews from around the world".

Israel is stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to absorbing new olim [immigrants], largely thanks to the small print in the country's immigration policy. Mirroring Hitler's assertion that anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent was to be considered untermenschen, the founding fathers of Israel declared that anyone with similar ancestry would therefore qualify for full citizenship of the newborn state.

Over the years, millions of Jews have taken up this offer, and today around 15% of Israel's seven million population is made up of first-generation olim. Of that number, the vast majority come from the former Soviet Union, and the next largest group hail from Ethiopia, a country which has seen a mass migration of its native Jews to Israel dating back to the 1970s.

The most famous airlift of Ethiopian émigrés was in 1991, with the country on the brink of collapse as rebels closed in on the capital, Addis Ababa. Operation Solomon saw more than 14,000 Ethiopian Jews flown to safety in the space of a day and a half, heralding a new wave of Ethiopian immigration that has continued unabated to the present day.

During one of my pre-barmitzvah trips to Israel, my family and I stumbled across an incredible scene in the streets of Jerusalem, as thousands of grateful participants in Operation Solomon flooded the city, marching jubilantly through the centre of town declaring their thanks for their salvation. The atmosphere was electric and highly-charged, their presence seemingly a sign of the lengths to which the Israeli authorities would go in order to rescue any imperilled Jew, regardless of where in the world they lived, or the colour of their skin.

Less than two decades on, it is clear that Israel's relationship with its incoming Ethiopian brethren has soured somewhat. Human nature seemingly dictates that bad blood often exists between different ethnic groups, and Israel is no different. Despite being a largely homogenous country, in terms of religious background at least, the spectre of racism rears its ugly head between the various types of Jew making up the populace.

As one Ethiopian girl commented, when I interviewed her last summer, "There's racism everywhere [in Israel] - against Filipinos, and against Yemenis; although we seem to have replaced the Yemeni these days." Her words echoed those of the Ethiopian boys with whom I served in the army, many of whom complained of their lack of prospects in a country that simply "sees us as no better than the Arabs".

Of course, there is no denying that absorbing the hundreds of thousands of Ethiopians who have made it to Israel's shores has sapped huge sums of money from the country's coffers, with the average cost of integrating an Ethiopian immigant estimated to be around £60,000. However, cost alone cannot play a part in deciding which Jews can or can't qualify as olim, according to the principles on which the state was founded.

Government ministers declare their intention to end Ethiopian immigration in one breath, and with the next announce plans to "invest vast resources in increasing the scope of aliyah [immigration]", which gives a clue as to quite the type of immigrant the authorities would rather encourage. Rich westerners are the flavour of the month, with both the government and private organisations throwing thousands of dollars at potential olim from the US, the UK and mainland Europe. These immigrants cost far less to the Israeli taxpayer, and are generally seen as a beneficial influence on both the country's economy and society as a whole.

In the meantime, thousands of Ethiopians with Jewish roots still languish in refugee camps in Gondar, desperately praying that the Israeli government will relent and allow them too to come to the Jewish state. Israeli authorities have used the smokescreen of disputing the authenticity of their Jewishness as reason to abandon them, despite the Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel declaring that calling a halt to their immigration is fundamentally wrong under Jewish law.

Israel has set itself up to have, in essence, an open-door policy to world Jewry in the same way as the EU allows freedom of movement throughout its realm to all citizens of member states. By taking a stance such as Israel is maintaining now, its government is beginning to resemble a spin-off of Italy's anti-Roma leaders seemingly prepared to rewrite the rules on the basis of which type of immigrant is most desirable to its people. In doing so, Israel's rulers are ripping up the rule-book on which the state was founded, to the detriment of thousands of Ethiopians left out in the cold.

[terry78]

So basically Israel has become the upper class suburbs.

[Asteroid-Man]

:lmao:

[C.F. Kane]

Hooh boy...

The Arab media is going to love this one...

[Gamma Ray]

Why isn't there a thread about this?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/27/gaza.israel.strikes/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

This was a long time coming. Hamas is refusing to surrender, and Israel is not going to back down. They say that this is just the initial series of bombings and that it will get much worse. There are no good answers for this, but I definitely think it's worth talking about.

[Exploding Boy]

Its the beginning of the end of the world!

[Captain_BluTac]

I thought this thread was about the footballer. :(

[Fenrir]

Israel has constantly and systematically butchered innocent Palestinians in their "retaliations". Israel has one of (if not THE) best intelligence agencies in the world and yet somehow in all their attacks, the collateral damage of innocents far outweighs their intended political and militant targets. Amazing, isn't it? You know you're seeing reckless slaughter at its finest when little Palestinian children have to pay for Hamas' crimes with their arms, legs, bones and spleen. And everyone is standing by on the sidelines watching the show as if it is justifiable in punishing the population of Gaza for electing Hamas with such strikes and the economic blockade that has turned the Gaza strip into a cesspool of suffering and desperation.

[Pulp]

And yet America happily sponsors Israel.

Why?

[Twin2]

I still try to figure out why British Palestine was just handed over. I mean surely you cannot just simply give a displaced nation a chunk of someone else's land.

Of course a nation can if it has the power to do so. That being said there will be a **** ton of problems that arise, and will have to be dealt with, but a nation can do that if they've got the power to.

Though sometimes I wonder what would really be needed to get a lasting peace between these two groups, because it just seems like it shouldn't be too hard, but nothing works.

[Honey Vibe]

The bombings were heinous and unforgivable -- wanton and indiscriminate murder. Israel has crossed the line and become the agent of terrorism it seeks to eradicate.

[deathfromabove]

while i understand the complexity of the situation and do not think either side is completely in the right, israel cannot continue to punish innocents for the past sins of hamas.

isn't it a sad comment on humanity that in the holy land there seems to be no god(s or goddesses)?

[Gamma Ray]

What past sins? Rockets are fired into Israel every single day. That's what I don't understand. Why is that okay?

[Fenrir]

What past sins? Rockets are fired into Israel every single day. That's what I don't understand. Why is that okay?

No, that is NOT okay. But neither is Israel's complacency in butchering hundreds of innocent Palestinians in the name of "collateral damage". Israel shamelessly boasts about being the more civilized, humane and victimized side in the conflict. Sadly, their actions speak otherwise.

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

From the clip on youtube it looked pretty chaotic.
There was a police man on the ground chanting some religous crap as he lay dying next several of his comared layed out already dead, looked awful.

[Majic Walrus]

So when is the US going to invade Palestine?

[Shemtov]

Israel has constantly and systematically butchered innocent Palestinians in their "retaliations". Israel has one of (if not THE) best intelligence agencies in the world and yet somehow in all their attacks, the collateral damage of innocents far outweighs their intended political and militant targets. Amazing, isn't it? You know you're seeing reckless slaughter at its finest when little Palestinian children have to pay for Hamas' crimes with their arms, legs, bones and spleen. And everyone is standing by on the sidelines watching the show as if it is justifiable in punishing the population of Gaza for electing Hamas with such strikes and the economic blockade that has turned the Gaza strip into a cesspool of suffering and desperation.

The bombings were heinous and unforgivable -- wanton and indiscriminate murder. Israel has crossed the line and become the agent of terrorism it seeks to eradicate.
you anti-semites should be banned. :cmad:

[Superman4ever]

What past sins? Rockets are fired into Israel every single day. That's what I don't understand. Why is that okay?

Rockets in retaliation to an embargo that was so crippling the sewage system, because the water/electricity was shut off, began to flood the streets.

This is from last year...the blockade just got worse over the year.

01hqVzViFTw

The blockade was even extended to media to hide it's cruel effectiveness:

a5Cz9PdX1dc&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

I disagree with launching rockets. I hate Hamas. But there is a HUGE difference between rockets that DON'T have explosive heads and the bombs and disproportionate response by Israel. I was watching the news today, obviously not American, that showed a father and his 4 year old son crying...in hysteria...for the loss of his wife and 3 other small children (5 years, 2 years and 14 months). Do you think the "sympathies" for the loss of collateral damage is going to heal that wound?

Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, B'tselem (an Israeli human rights program) and dozens of other organizations have been for MONTHS now pleading with the world to look at the atrocious conditions the Gazans have been enduring.

Moreover, who created Hamas? Israel supported Hamas in the 1980's as an Islamic-social organization that would counter the nationalistic goals of the PLO, it's sub-divisions and the Palestinian people.

It's always the civilians that suffer on either side of this problem for the propaganda and cruelty of it's higher ups.

[Carcharodon]

you anti-semites should be banned. :cmad:I can't tell whether you're joking or retarded. :huh:

[rizzo51]

a sign of things to come all over.

[Superman4ever]

I can't tell whether you're joking or retarded. :huh:

Joking, hopefully.

[Gamma Ray]

Rockets in retaliation to an embargo that was so crippling the sewage system, because the water/electricity was shut off, began to flood the streets.

This is from last year...the blockade just got worse over the year.

01hqVzViFTw

The blockade was even extended to media to hide it's cruel effectiveness:

a5Cz9PdX1dc&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

I disagree with launching rockets. I hate Hamas. But there is a HUGE difference between rockets that DON'T have explosive heads and the bombs and disproportionate response by Israel. I was watching the news today, obviously not American, that showed a father and his 4 year old son crying...in hysteria...for the loss of his wife and 3 other small children (5 years, 2 years and 14 months). Do you think the "sympathies" for the loss of collateral damage is going to heal that wound?

Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, B'tselem (an Israeli human rights program) and dozens of other organizations have been for MONTHS now pleading with the world to look at the atrocious conditions the Gazans have been enduring.

Moreover, who created Hamas? Israel supported Hamas in the 1980's as an Islamic-social organization that would counter the nationalistic goals of the PLO, it's sub-divisions and the Palestinian people.

It's always the civilians that suffer on either side of this problem for the propaganda and cruelty of it's higher ups.

Interesting article about disproportionate force:
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=1&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=378&PID=0&IID=2808&TTL=Did_Israel_Use_%E2%80%9CDisproportionate_Force %E2%80%9D_in_Gaza

[Asteroid-Man]

I hate one people take one side over the other. Wars aren't just black and white, there's about a million shades of gray people!

[The Senator]

Funny, I recall having a post in this thread which described how the West's support of Israel is based on ethnicity and the state's ties to Christianity, but it seems to have up and vanished.

[raybia]

So when is the US going to invade Palestine?

They already have by proxy.

[Superman4ever]

Funny, I recall having a post in this thread which described how the West's support of Israel is based on ethnicity and the state's ties to Christianity, but it seems to have up and vanished.

Yeah, where'd that go?

[Superman4ever]

Interesting article about disproportionate force:
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=1&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=378&PID=0&IID=2808&TTL=Did_Israel_Use_%E2%80%9CDisproportionate_Force %E2%80%9D_in_Gaza

Interesting read. Thank you for that.

I just saw these vids this morning and thought you might like to see it. The important part is that both sides understand the need of the other.

UN press conference on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Long version (10 minutes). It talks about the humantarian crisis suffered by the Palestinians and the psychological effects of the rockets on Israeli citizens:

Jrg3B4J22uk&feature=channel_page

UN Relief and Works Conference Short version (3 minutes) of the reason rockets were fired via Hamas.
WQ26e7D0ZE4&feature=channel_page

[kainedamo]

How come you guys aren't discussing this?? Discuss it!!

Is the Israeli response to Hamas rocket attacks disproportionate? What is it, 4 Israeli civilians dead in the last few days and over 300 Palestinians dead? Not suggesting that Israel ignore the rocket attacks, but surely there has to be a better way, no?

People always harp on "well for there to be peace first Hamas must recognise Israel's right to exist"... but why should they? The Palestinians were forced off their land in the 40's, forced into this thin strip of land. They're packed in like sardines. It's one of the most densely populated places in the world. Why is it in their hands to make the moves for peace?

Why are the Hamas attacks labeled terrorism, and the Israeli attacks not labeled the same way? Are the Palestinians not bloody terrified?

Also, American media sucks at reporting this. BBC, Al Jazeera, French news, etc, all give very in depth reports into what's happening. Fox news is all, yeah, lets talk about this for about 2 minuters and then discuss shark attacks in Florida.

[Tigerking]

All the Israeli bombings do is create more people ready to join Islamic Jihad and all the other terrorist organizations.

[redfirebird2008]

How come you guys aren't discussing this?? Discuss it!!

Is the Israeli response to Hamas rocket attacks disproportionate? What is it, 4 Israeli civilians dead in the last few days and over 300 Palestinians dead? Not suggesting that Israel ignore the rocket attacks, but surely there has to be a better way, no?

People always harp on "well for there to be peace first Hamas must recognise Israel's right to exist"... but why should they? The Palestinians were forced off their land in the 40's, forced into this thin strip of land. They're packed in like sardines. It's one of the most densely populated places in the world. Why is it in their hands to make the moves for peace?

Why are the Hamas attacks labeled terrorism, and the Israeli attacks not labeled the same way? Are the Palestinians not bloody terrified?

Also, American media sucks at reporting this. BBC, Al Jazeera, French news, etc, all give very in depth reports into what's happening. Fox news is all, yeah, lets talk about this for about 2 minuters and then discuss shark attacks in Florida.

Both sides are wrong and have been for decades. It's a sad situation. I really do hope they can eventually have a true peace between the people. If the Palestinians didn't engage in terrorism, many people would realize that Israel's actions over the years were despicable. Just because you were rounded up into concentration camps by the Nazis doesn't give you the right to turn around and do it to another group of people. But when the Palestinians engage in terrorism, it makes it very difficult for people to see their side of the story.

[Paradoxium]

Not to be a heartless bastard... but two words:

Oil Prices

[Marx]

This is certainly a situation that is going from bad to worse. And has been for quite some time. Israel's actions are only stoking the fires of religious intolerance and the fact that a terror group controls Gaza is not good in the least.

[hippie_hunter]

Hamas brought Israel's wrath upon Gaza themselves. They should have continued the cease-fire and not launched rocket attacks on Israeli territory. They instigated it, plain and simple. To think that there would be no form of retaliation from Israel is ridiculous.

That said, whenever Israel does respond with legitimate reasons, they tend to go overboard and ruining a lot of their credibility in the process. And there is no reason why there shouldn't be an independent Palestinian state.

I've come to the conclusion that everyone in that region is severely lacking common sense.

[Kelly]

How come you guys aren't discussing this?? Discuss it!!

Is the Israeli response to Hamas rocket attacks disproportionate? What is it, 4 Israeli civilians dead in the last few days and over 300 Palestinians dead? Not suggesting that Israel ignore the rocket attacks, but surely there has to be a better way, no?

People always harp on "well for there to be peace first Hamas must recognise Israel's right to exist"... but why should they? The Palestinians were forced off their land in the 40's, forced into this thin strip of land. They're packed in like sardines. It's one of the most densely populated places in the world. Why is it in their hands to make the moves for peace?

Why are the Hamas attacks labeled terrorism, and the Israeli attacks not labeled the same way? Are the Palestinians not bloody terrified?

Also, American media sucks at reporting this. BBC, Al Jazeera, French news, etc, all give very in depth reports into what's happening. Fox news is all, yeah, lets talk about this for about 2 minuters and then discuss shark attacks in Florida.


Well since you are demanding I discuss it........NO.:oldrazz:

[Kelly]

Hamas brought Israel's wrath upon Gaza themselves. They should have continued the cease-fire and not launched rocket attacks on Israeli territory. They instigated it, plain and simple. To think that there would be no form of retaliation from Israel is ridiculous.

That said, whenever Israel does respond with legitimate reasons, they tend to go overboard and ruining a lot of their credibility in the process. And there is no reason why there shouldn't be an independent Palestinian state.

I've come to the conclusion that everyone in that region is severely lacking common sense.


The problem with Hamas, is they are notorious for building their strongholds smack in the middle of the people, in neighborhoods etc. When you walk out into the middle of a street and launch a rocket...that's a little hard to retaliate against and not see casualties.

[Paradoxium]

The problem with Hamas, is they are notorious for building their strongholds smack in the middle of the people, in neighborhoods etc. When you walk out into the middle of a street and launch a rocket...that's a little hard to retaliate against and not see casualties.
They are cowards for doing crap like this to maximize collateral damage. Western militaries need to get with the program and run more surgical small tactics units besides specOps.

[hippie_hunter]

The problem with Hamas, is they are notorious for building their strongholds smack in the middle of the people, in neighborhoods etc. When you walk out into the middle of a street and launch a rocket...that's a little hard to retaliate against and not see casualties.

It's why I think that the people of Gaza brought this upon themselves for electing Hamas. Hamas brought this upon themselves for attacking Israel. And Israel are a bunch of douchebags for not being more surgical and precise in their attacks.

A severe lack of common sense by everyone.

[Kelly]

It's why I think that the people of Gaza brought this upon themselves for electing Hamas. Hamas brought this upon themselves for attacking Israel. And Israel are a bunch of douchebags for not being more surgical and precise in their attacks.

A severe lack of common sense by everyone.

Yep, I just saw an interview with the Hamas Prime Mnister..."We will stop the rockets, when Israel stops" Israeli Defense Minister...."We will stop the rockets, when Hamas stops".


wow...................and I'm not kidding, that is exactly what was said.

[Addendum]

It's like giving grade schoolers bombs and rockets instead of water balloons and silly string

[redfirebird2008]

It's like giving grade schoolers bombs and rockets instead of water balloons and silly string

Yep, this centuries-old conflict is an example of how destructive religion can be on geopolitical issues. I know to them it's a very serious matter, but to the rest of us, it looks immature and silly -- like grade schoolers as you said. And I say this as a Christian who reveres that region of the world.

[Kelly]

Yep, this centuries-old conflict is an example of how destructive religion can be on geopolitical issues. I know to them it's a very serious matter, but to the rest of us, it looks immature and silly -- like grade schoolers as you said. And I say this as a Christian who reveres that region of the world.

Religion is what gets blamed, in reality it is power, land and water are the main causes of the conflict in Israel, Gaza and Syria. Religion is just the scapegoat.

[Hobgoblin]

Religion is what gets blamed, in reality it is power, land and water are the main causes of the conflict in Israel, Gaza and Syria. Religion is just the scapegoat.

I've heard it said that part of the reason for the violence is that Israeli elections are coming up and the PM (I forget his name) wants to appear tough on Hamas. I dont know if I can say thats 100% of the reason, but its one explanation.

Frankly, I dont know how much can be discussed. The current situation isnt so different from any other Israeli/Palestinian/Arab violence. Israel will hammer the terrorists into the ground, there will be peace for a few years, until it starts up again.

My only concern is that one day it will all come to a head. It cant go on without end forever. We just wont know which time will be the final time until its all said and done.

[Kurosawa]

It's why I think that the people of Gaza brought this upon themselves for electing Hamas. Hamas brought this upon themselves for attacking Israel. And Israel are a bunch of douchebags for not being more surgical and precise in their attacks.

A severe lack of common sense by everyone.

Both sides are also heavily into playing the victim. Disgustingly so, although the Jewish people have recently experienced the much greater horror imo.

[Spider-Bite]

Hamas brought Israel's wrath upon Gaza themselves. They should have continued the cease-fire and not launched rocket attacks on Israeli territory. They instigated it, plain and simple. To think that there would be no form of retaliation from Israel is ridiculous.

That said, whenever Israel does respond with legitimate reasons, they tend to go overboard and ruining a lot of their credibility in the process. And there is no reason why there shouldn't be an independent Palestinian state.

I've come to the conclusion that everyone in that region is severely lacking common sense.
this situation started before either me or you were born. You can't say Israel is completely innocent. Neither side is innocent.

If it wasn't for the possiblity that all these countries in that region would just nuke the hell out of each other causing worldwide problems, I'd say we get out of the way and let fight it out untill they learn from their own mistakes and agree to stop fighting.

[Hobgoblin]

Both sides are also heavily into playing the victim. Disgustingly so, although the Jewish people have recently experienced the much greater horror imo.

Thats certainly true, but in the few moments of peace, Israeli citizens enjoy a much higher standard of living than the Palestinians in Gaza.

[hippie_hunter]

this situation started before either me or you were born. You can't say Israel is completely innocent. Neither side is innocent.
I didn't say that. I refuse to take a side in this argument on the basis that both sides are horribly, horribly guilty and neither side deserves sympathy asides from the innocent people that are suffering, both Jew and Arab.

[Spider-Bite]

Religion is what gets blamed, in reality it is power, land and water are the main causes of the conflict in Israel, Gaza and Syria. Religion is just the scapegoat.

I have a friend from Pakistan and I know this guy can't speak for the entir region, but at the same time this guy has an insight we don't. Obviously both sides make misconceptions about the other side.

And one day when I asked him his feelings on Jews, which are disgusting, "We hate jews, we want to kill them" and when I asked why he said "Our religion says we should hate them. they are responsible for everything that is wrong in the world."

According to their religion, and I'm not just going by him now, there will be a war to end all wars, and it will be Persia defeating Israel and that is when the messiah will return.

Religion is an important part of the conflict and Israel isn't helping us show them how ignorant they are being. Practically every foreign policy decision they make only reinforces the belief that they are evil and God is against them.

I'm not saying Isreal is the only one to blame or that they don't have a right to defend themselves but it's time they start implementing a foreign policy that is aimed at winning over the hearts and minds of muslims and shows them that they are not the enemy.

And the united states needs to tell them that if they don't do that they will lose our support. It's unfair how we threaten other countries with retalliation if they harm Israel yet we let Israel do whatever they want to muslim nations.

Israel drags the U.S. through the mud right along with it.

[Kurosawa]

Thats certainly true, but in the few moments of peace, Israeli citizens enjoy a much higher standard of living than the Palestinians in Gaza.

Yea, that's partially due to Israel's economic sanctions against them, and partially due to their own stubborn backwardness.

[Hobgoblin]

Yea, that's partially due to Israel's economic sanctions against them, and partially due to their own stubborn backwardness.

Absolutely. As we all keep saying "Neither party is innocent."

[MaskedManJRK]

Yeah, no side in this is truly innocent of anything at this point, and, hopefully, soon enough, both sides will have more people who are tired of the constant threat of bombing then holy and power warriors.

[Spider-Bite]

I want to go on the record and say that my friend who is from Pakistan does not represent the leftist view. He votes republican. Well if he could vote here in America he would vote democrat, but for the few middle eastern countries where he has citizenship he would vote republican if he voted but he doesn't vote.

[Addendum]

Racism isn't exclusive to a single political party or ideology

[Spider-Bite]

Racism isn't exclusive to a single political party or ideology
the only reason he would vote democrat in America is because he feels that republicans want to blow up his region of the world.

[Addendum]

The neocons and the authoritarians, but they don't represent the entire party

[Spider-Bite]

The neocons and the authoritarians, but they don't represent the entire party
just because somebody calls themself a liberal that doesn't mean they always take the liberal position every time.

however part of the definition of liberal is to be opposed to prejudice and bigotry. It's even in the dictionary.

Racism and prejudice and bigotry are all exclusive to the conservative ideology. those are the conservative sides of the issues.

[Hobgoblin]

And one day when I asked him his feelings on Jews, which are disgusting, "We hate jews, we want to kill them" and when I asked why he said "Our religion says we should hate them. they are responsible for everything that is wrong in the world."

According to their religion, and I'm not just going by him now, there will be a war to end all wars, and it will be Persia defeating Israel and that is when the messiah will return.


As you said, this guy cant speak for all Muslims, Arabs or South Asians but there are likely enough like-minded people to bring the Israeli/Muslim conflict to a head. The mutual apocalyptic teachings in Islam and Christianity in this regard is...well, disturbing. You dont want these two going head to head, which, of course, is exactly whats happening.

Not to say that it will bring about the end of the world but a big nasty war is bad enough. And I cant say I blame religion for this either. Human stupidity is a dangerous force of nature in its own right, with or without divine intervention.

[hippie_hunter]

just because somebody calls themself a liberal that doesn't mean they always take the liberal position every time.

however part of the definition of liberal is to be opposed to prejudice and bigotry. It's even in the dictionary.

Racism and prejudice and bigotry are all exclusive to the conservative ideology. those are the conservative sides of the issues.

Racism, prejudice, and bigotry isn't limited to conservatives. Leftists and leftist governments have shown those symptoms before.

[Addendum]

The dictionary mentions nothing about prejudice or bigotry with regard to "conservative"

Be careful, your prejudice is showing

[Hobgoblin]

Racism, prejudice, and bigotry isn't limited to conservatives. Leftists and leftist governments have shown those symptoms before.

The Soviet Union, anyone? Red China?

[redfirebird2008]

The dictionary mentions nothing about prejudice or bigotry with regard to "conservative"

Be careful, your prejudice is showing

LOL, ownage. Nicely played. :woot:

[Spider-Bite]

[quote=Addendum;16198315]The dictionary mentions nothing about prejudice or bigotry with regard to "conservative"



conservative http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conservative


1. disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
2. cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate.
3. traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness: conservative suit.
4. (often initial capital letter) of or pertaining to the Conservative party.
5. (initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Conservative Jews or Conservative Judaism.
6. having the power or tendency to conserve; preservative.
7. Mathematics. (of a vector or vector function) having curl equal to zero; irrotational; lamellar.
–noun 8. a person who is conservative in principles, actions, habits, etc.
9. a supporter of conservative political policies.
10. (initial capital letter) a member of a conservative political party, esp. the Conservative party in Great Britain.
11. a preservative.


It doesn't say racism obviously, however racism is an existing condition. And part of the conservative ideology is to preserve existing conditions. that is why i said racism is the conservative side of the issue. In addition trying to preserve things the way they are is kind of bigotry with regard to people who want to live differently or find a new way to live. Not to mention if the liberal ideology is opposed to racism and bigotry, than what exactly is it limited to? if it doesn't make it into the liberal ideology, and it stops at the conservative ideology, than where is it limited to?

Be careful, your prejudice is showing
No it's not. I am proud of my beliefs and stand up for them. I don't hide them. If I felt prejudice I would simply admit it.

dont' believe me? I struggle with my own prejudice towards religion and extrmely religous people. It's a feeling that I don't choose to possess and I don't make excuses for it or try to justify it. It's just that I see all the problems it causes and it invokes these feelings in me. I know these feelings are not helpful to society and I don't act on it or try to promote it.

I don't even desire a complete atheist society as sometimes religion can improve the quality of life for people.

I also want to say these feelings aren't really that strong. they are pretty mild and weak, but I know they are there. I think they were completely gone for a while, but with the election having just passed and making friends with my friend from Pakistan, I think they have been brought back.

[Spider-Bite]

Racism, prejudice, and bigotry isn't limited to conservatives.
Never said it was. I said it was limited to the conservative ideology. Just because not every republican is opposed to abortion, that doesnt' mean that pro-life isn't the republican position of the issue, does it?



Leftists and leftist governments have shown those symptoms before.
there is no such thing as a purely leftist government. the ideologies pull back and forth in every country. It's like a tug of war.

You might try to mention china as a leftist government, but does China allow gay marriage? Does China allow freedom of speech? Does China have poor people? Did China torture prisoners as a form of punishement? Does China give you the right to a fair trial?

Nope.

It's all a matter of how far left the leftist actually is.

[Spider-Bite]

It's funny how the more conservative part of the country is the one that had slavery and was last to end segregation. And that is the part of the country that went to Bush.

to deny that racism is the conservative side of the political spectrum lacks credibility. yeah it's a real coincedence that the first black president is a democrat. sheesh.

People actually think that's a coincedence? Really? Just a coincedence?

[redfirebird2008]

It's funny how the more conservative part of the country is the one that had slavery and was last to end segregation. And that is the part of the country that went to Bush.

to deny that racism is the conservative side of the political spectrum lacks credibility. yeah it's a real coincedence that the first black president is a democrat. sheesh.

People actually think that's a coincedence? Really? Just a coincedence?

The "Solid South" as it's known voted for Democrats up until 1964 when LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act. He signed away the South politically for several generations.

[Spider-Bite]

The "Solid South" as it's known voted for Democrats up until 1964 when LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act. He signed away the South politically for several generations.
that only reinforces my argument. As soon as democrats stick up for black people the conservative part of the country starts voting against them.

Were conservatives opposed to ending slavery and segregation? Did texas send gay people to prison? Did conservatives try to label Obama a terrorist? Do conservatives label Islam, Hinjuism, Buddhism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Pagenism as sins? Do conservatives oppose gay marriage?

and people are actually trying to say that the conservative ideology doesn't include prejudice and bigotry?

Come on that's like saying Michael Jordan didn't play basketball.

[Kelly]

Never said it was. I said it was limited to the conservative ideology. Just because not every republican is opposed to abortion, that doesnt' mean that pro-life isn't the republican position of the issue, does it?


Maybe I missed something.


Prejuidice and bigotry are a part of the conservative ideology?


I'm sure I read that wrong....

[Kelly]

It's funny how the more conservative part of the country is the one that had slavery and was last to end segregation. And that is the part of the country that went to Bush.

to deny that racism is the conservative side of the political spectrum lacks credibility. yeah it's a real coincedence that the first black president is a democrat. sheesh.

People actually think that's a coincedence? Really? Just a coincedence?

WTF? LMAO........well I guess I need to move to Florida so that I can still be in the South and not be looked at as a bigot or prejudice by you.

damn, what a shallow view.

[Addendum]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conservative

1. disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
2. cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate.
3. traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness: conservative suit.
4. (often initial capital letter) of or pertaining to the Conservative party.
5. (initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Conservative Jews or Conservative Judaism.
6. having the power or tendency to conserve; preservative.
7. Mathematics. (of a vector or vector function) having curl equal to zero; irrotational; lamellar.
–noun 8. a person who is conservative in principles, actions, habits, etc.
9. a supporter of conservative political policies.
10. (initial capital letter) a member of a conservative political party, esp. the Conservative party in Great Britain.
11. a preservative.


Find the word "prejudice" in the link you gave. Note that it says "Phrase not found". The same thing happens with regard to "bigotry" and "racism". So, going by how you said "part of the definition of liberal is to be opposed to prejudice and bigotry. It's even in the dictionary", I can state that prejudice and bigotry are not part of the definition of conservative. The dictionary supports my claim, not yours.

Anything more than that is your prejudice and bigotry, no matter how much you try to white-wash it.

But then, this is the guy who thinks Lincoln founded the Libertarian party, even though it was started 106 years after Lincoln died