The Israel Situation

[redfirebird2008]

that only reinforces my argument. As soon as democrats stick up for black people the conservative part of the country starts voting against them.

Were conservatives opposed to ending slavery and segregation? Did texas send gay people to prison? Did conservatives try to label Obama a terrorist? Do conservatives label Islam, Hinjuism, Buddhism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Pagenism as sins? Do conservatives oppose gay marriage?

and people are actually trying to say that the conservative ideology doesn't include prejudice and bigotry?

Come on that's like saying Michael Jordan didn't play basketball.

Just a little heads up. Every religion says that the others are wrong. I'm Christian and I believe the others are wrong. I believe they have the RIGHT to do whatever the hell they want. God gave everyone free will. But that doesn't mean I agree with their beliefs on religion either.

[Paradoxium]

Palestinian kids raised for war (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17707)
Taught to hate, kill Jews through 'Sesame Street'-type TV show

Palestinian children are taught to hate Jews, to glorify "jihad" (holy war), violence, death and child martyrdom almost from birth, as an essential part of their culture and destiny.

As captured on an Israeli video documentary produced in 1998, a "Sesame Street"-like children's program called the "Children's Club" -- complete with puppet shows, songs, Mickey Mouse and other characters -- focused on inculcating intense hatred of Jews and a passion for engaging in and celebrating violence against them in a perpetual "jihad" until the day the Israeli flags come down from above "Palestinian land" and the Palestinian flag is raised.

In one song on the "Children's Club," very young children are shown singing songs about wanting to become "suicide warriors" and to take up "a machine gun" to direct "violence, anger, anger, anger" against Israelis.

During the show, which features children aged 4-10, one young boy sings, "When I wander into Jerusalem, I will become a suicide bomber." Afterward, other children stand to call for "Jihad! Holy war to the end against the Zionist enemy."

In another segment, a boy who appears to be no more than 8 or 9 years old chants: "My patience has run out. All Arab existence cries for revenge" against the Jews in Israel.

The documentary also juxtaposes the children's programming with television news reporting, in which the news anchor - reflecting the same message the children are receiving -describes Palestinians as "noble, courageous" fighters, while describing Israel as "mean, fascist, racist, genocidal" and "Nazis.""It's very scary - it's a state-run educational system that teaches its children to be martyrs," said Meyrav Wurmser, Ph.D., an expert in Middle East politics who taught at the U.S. Naval Academy and Johns Hopkins. Wurmser is the author of the recently published book, "Schools of Ba'athism," in which she makes a comprehensive survey and analysis of Syrian school textbooks. What she found is identical to what goes on with the Palestinians, she says.

"In the Palestinian case, what we see is the cynical use of children, who are exposed to a state-run ideology that pushes them to their death, in the name of Palestinian nationalism," she says. "Children are taught to idealize death, to view it as a positive. In many cases, they are told that death is not death at all, but rather the beginning of a new life."

[Addendum]

I think I've seen that same article over the past 9 years. I guess you recycle articles when nothing new develops

[Paradoxium]

The only thing new that will develop is if one side wipes out the other.

[Kelly]

Which unfortunately is what Israel is going to have to do....they are going to have to go back into Gaza, wipe out Hamas, take the slams.......and get the PA back in power.

[Hobgoblin]

Hamas can never be wiped out, unfortunately. As long as Israel exists, there will be people that hate it. Who knows how many organizations are out there that want to destroy the Jewish state. Too many to be destroyed, especially since they are funded and aided by countries like Iran.

[Backdrifter]

It is always interesting to listen to people's opinions about all of this. Israel provides a stream of food, water and medical supplies to Gaza... and last year alone Gaza supplied a stream of 5 thousand rockets to Israel landing on schools, homes etc. But the MINUTE Israel decides they want to defend themselves... they are bad guy.

There is an analogy that I heard somewhere. An IDF soldier stands in front of a stroller, defending its infant passenger, a terrorist stands behind it using it as a shield.

The whole thing is ridiculous and totally skewed by the media. I visted Israel last year and one of the things that really shocked me was that fact that student field trips required protection by the IDF because terrorists attack students. How sick is that?

[Addendum]

And it's always funny when people whine about ANY criticism of Israel.

[redfirebird2008]

And it's always funny when people whine about ANY criticism of Israel.

Exactly. As if Israel is completely innocent and has never once provoked Palestinian resentment (cough...Ariel Sharon's grandstanding...cough).

[The Overlord]

How come you guys aren't discussing this?? Discuss it!!

Is the Israeli response to Hamas rocket attacks disproportionate? What is it, 4 Israeli civilians dead in the last few days and over 300 Palestinians dead? Not suggesting that Israel ignore the rocket attacks, but surely there has to be a better way, no?

People always harp on "well for there to be peace first Hamas must recognise Israel's right to exist"... but why should they? The Palestinians were forced off their land in the 40's, forced into this thin strip of land. They're packed in like sardines. It's one of the most densely populated places in the world. Why is it in their hands to make the moves for peace?
.

Because war with Israel is really stupid, that's why! You only fight wars you can win and Hamas can't win war with Israel. The Palestinians have more to lose from a war then Israel, there was a full blown war, israel would win, hands down and they may use the context of war do way worse stuff to the Palestinians. Hamas are ****ing morons, they already got Israel out of Gaza, why are they launching rockets at israel, that just pisses them and gives them a reason to go back there. Why should israel make a deal with Hamas, when it seems Hamas dosn't have two brain cells to rub together?

Frankly why should i care if Israel is planning on destroying Hamas, I oppose them on almost everything, they are a reactionary, homophobic group of religious fundamentalist, good riddance if they are gone, I say.

[redfirebird2008]

Because war with Israel is really stupid, that's why! You only fight wars you can win and Hamas can't win war with Israel. The Palestinians have more to lose from a war then Israel, there was a full blown war, israel would win, hands down and they may use the context of war do way worse stuff to the Palestinians. Hamas are ****ing morons, they already got Israel out of Gaza, why are they launching rockets at israel, that just pisses them and gives them a reason to go back there. Why should israel make a deal with Hamas, when it seems Hamas dosn't have two brain cells to rub together?

Frankly why should i care if Israel is planning on destroying Hamas, I oppose them on almost everything, they are a reactionary, homophobic group of religious fundamentalist, good riddance if they are gone, I say.

The problem is not destroying Hamas. I think everyone is in favor of that. The problem is the collateral damage that comes with destroying Hamas. They have infiltrated a densely populated area, which means taking them out also means killing a ton of innocent Palestinians...which then makes the anger on the Palestinian side even stronger, and the cycle of violence from both sides continues. :csad:

[Addendum]

The violence will always continue, no matter how many peace treaties or cease fires there may be

[The Overlord]

The problem is not destroying Hamas. I think everyone is in favor of that. The problem is the collateral damage that comes with destroying Hamas. They have infiltrated a densely populated area, which means taking them out also means killing a ton of innocent Palestinians...which then makes the anger on the Palestinian side even stronger, and the cycle of violence from both sides continues. :csad:

Here's thought, don't make Hamas your government then, idiots! Seriously the Palestinians are being stupid here, they are supporting tactics that will lead to their own destruction. This isn't cycle because Israel can end this any time they can't, they go for the end game scenario, a full blown war would only benefit Israel, because they could cast out the Palestinians out the region, entirely, I doubt they would do that, unless they were really pushed, because it cause a negative reaction around the world, but Hamas shouldn't bait them to do it. If your foe has a vastly superior military, you should almost never use force to achieve what you want, that's just common sense.

[MaskedManJRK]

It is always interesting to listen to people's opinions about all of this. Israel provides a stream of food, water and medical supplies to Gaza... and last year alone Gaza supplied a stream of 5 thousand rockets to Israel landing on schools, homes etc. But the MINUTE Israel decides they want to defend themselves... they are bad guy.

There is an analogy that I heard somewhere. An IDF soldier stands in front of a stroller, defending its infant passenger, a terrorist stands behind it using it as a shield.

The whole thing is ridiculous and totally skewed by the media. I visted Israel last year and one of the things that really shocked me was that fact that student field trips required protection by the IDF because terrorists attack students. How sick is that?

Didn't Israel close that line back in November? Is it still closed now? I know there's been a recent controversy with a boat that had supplies that was perhaps-accidentially rammed into by an Israeli boat.

[Kelly]

Didn't Israel close that line back in November? Is it still closed now? I know there's been a recent controversy with a boat that had supplies that was perhaps-accidentially rammed into by an Israeli boat.


No, actually through all of this mess, Israel is still sending in food and supplies when they can....I'm not sure that it is Israel that is running the food and supplies in, but it is from Israel.

[StorminNorman]

The problem is not destroying Hamas. I think everyone is in favor of that. The problem is the collateral damage that comes with destroying Hamas. They have infiltrated a densely populated area, which means taking them out also means killing a ton of innocent Palestinians...which then makes the anger on the Palestinian side even stronger, and the cycle of violence from both sides continues. :csad:

I think Palestinians lost the rights to complain about collateral damage when they elected Hamas.

By electing a known terrorist group, you accept the responsibilities that come with it - mainly being the enemy of states like Israel with much bigger weapons who don't **** around.

[redfirebird2008]

I think Palestinians lost the rights to complain about collateral damage when they elected Hamas.

By electing a known terrorist group, you accept the responsibilities that come with it - mainly being the enemy of states like Israel with much bigger weapons who don't **** around.

I'm still wondering how the hell they were stupid enough to elect Hamas. It seems laughably stupid.

[StorminNorman]

I'm still wondering how the hell they were stupid enough to elect Hamas. It seems laughably stupid.

It's would be like Germany electing the Nazi Party in 1950.

[hippie_hunter]

The Israeli air force bombed the homes Thursday of two top Hamas military figures, killing at least one of them.

The Hamas television station Al-Aqsa showed the body of Nizar Rayan, a commander in northern Gaza, being pulled from the rubble of his house in Jabalya, north of Gaza City.

Rayan, one of the main founders of Hamas, is the senior-most Hamas leader to be killed in Israel's six-day air offensive on Gaza, the Israeli daily Haaretz reported.

The Islamist University lecturer "ranked among Hamas' top five decision-makers as the liaison between the group's military and political wing," the paper said.

The newspaper also described him as an "outspoken advocate of renewing suicide bombings against Israel."

The Israeli Defense Forces said Rayan was behind a 2004 suicide bombing in Ashdod, in which 10 Israelis were killed, and an October 2001 suicide mission in a Jewish settlement in Gaza that his son carried out. Two Israelis were killed in that mission, the military said. Learn who's who in Gaza »

The Israelis would not say whether they were specifically targeting Rayan in the assault. The bombing touched off secondary explosions from munitions and weapons stored in the home, Haaretz reported.

Nine other people also died in the attack, Hamas and Palestinian medical sources said, some of whom were believed to be members of Rayan's family. Video Watch how civilians are caught in the crossfire »

Rayan had urged Gazans not to abandon their homes during the Israeli air attacks, even if they received threats to evacuate, Arab media reported.

Video showed crowds of men outside the remains of Rayan's house, shouting as they climbed mounds of debris, pulling bodies from the rubble and searching for other victims. Nearby buildings were heavily damaged, and rubble -- some streaked with blood -- clogged the streets.

An airstrike also hit the Gaza City home of senior Hamas military operative Nabil Amrin, causing weaponry stored inside to explode, the IDF said.

There was no word on possible casualties, and the IDF said they didn't know whether Amrin was home at the time.

The attacks were among dozens Thursday in northern Gaza in what Israel says is a response to ongoing Hamas rocket fire into southern Israel. The IDF said in a statement that more than 40 rockets fell in Israel, and it carried out over 50 airstrikes on Gaza.

The military has said it is targeting only Hamas militants, and Hamas has vowed to defend Gaza in the face of what it calls continued Israeli aggression.

In Paris, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni met with French President Nicolas Sarkozy and Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, whose truce proposal was turned down Wednesday by Israel. It would have stopped the fighting temporarily so more humanitarian aid could reach Gaza.

The six days of Israeli airstrikes on Gaza have "achieved changes," Livni said.

"What we are doing now is changing the equation, making it a better reality to our citizens, stopping the rockets on Israel," Livni said after meeting with Sarkozy.

"We want to weaken Gaza," Livni said. "At the end of the day, Hamas is a problem, not only to Israel but to the entire Palestinian people," Livni said.

Since Israel launched the bombing campaign Saturday, Palestinian medical sources say at least 400 people, including 42 children, have been killed. Video Watch people run in the aftermath of an Israeli airstrike »

Four Israelis, three of them civilians, have been killed and 56 wounded by Palestinian rocket fire, police, military and medical officials have said.

Palestinian militants continued to fire rockets into southern Israel. The Israeli military said four struck Beer Sheva on Wednesday, and at least two medium-range rockets struck the community Thursday. Beer Sheva is about 19 miles outside Gaza. Video Watch how emergency responders have dealt with the crisis »

Israel targeted the Palestinian parliament building in Gaza City overnight, gutting the structure. The ministries of justice and education and civil defense headquarters, to the city's west, also were bombed.

Meanwhile, in Rome, Italy, on Thursday, Pope Benedict XVI prayed for peace in Gaza.

"To Mary we entrust our profound desire to live in peace that rises from the heart of the great majority of the Israeli and Palestinian population, once again jeopardized by the massive outbreak of violence in the Gaza Strip in response to other violence," he said at a morning Mass.

[Kelly]

Damn, ya know....Israel kicked ass in the 6-day war......what happened????

[Spider-Bite]

Find the word "prejudice" in the link you gave. Note that it says "Phrase not found". The same thing happens with regard to "bigotry" and "racism". So, going by how you said "part of the definition of liberal is to be opposed to prejudice and bigotry. It's even in the dictionary", I can state that prejudice and bigotry are not part of the definition of conservative. The dictionary supports my claim, not yours.

Anything more than that is your prejudice and bigotry, no matter how much you try to white-wash it.

But then, this is the guy who thinks Lincoln founded the Libertarian party, even though it was started 106 years after Lincoln died

You didn't refute my specific points. You merely deleted them from the quote. I knew nobody would try.

[Spider-Bite]

Just a little heads up. Every religion says that the others are wrong. I'm Christian and I believe the others are wrong. I believe they have the RIGHT to do whatever the hell they want. God gave everyone free will. But that doesn't mean I agree with their beliefs on religion either.
that's becaue bigotry is so common throughout the world that surely bigots got there belief inserted into the world's religions, just as liberal beliefs made it in there as well.

It's your choice which aspect of the religion you will be influenced by.

[Spider-Bite]

WTF? LMAO........well I guess I need to move to Florida so that I can still be in the South and not be looked at as a bigot or prejudice by you.

damn, what a shallow view.

None of the points I made to support my argument have been addressed by even a single opponent. You guys merely stated that I'm wrong or took the argument in different directions, but neglected to even attempt to address the specific points I made.

[Kelly]

None of the points I made to support my argument have been addressed by even a single opponent. You guys merely stated that I'm wrong or took the argument in different directions, but neglected to even attempt to address the specific points I made.


Because your points are totally pointless so why waste my time on them.....you set there and call Republicans/southerners bigots and yet your post smacked of bigotry to its core......why would I waste my time with that?

[Spider-Bite]

Because your points are totally pointless so why waste my time on them.....you set there and call Republicans/southerners bigots and yet your post smacked of bigotry to its core......why would I waste my time with that?
That's a cop out. You were clearly willing to spend time quoting them. If your willing to quote them, than you can't claim you don't want to waste your time refuting the points I made. To say that I am opposed to that which hurts people and ruins lives is hardly bigotry. there is a difference between being accepting and tolerant of diverse cultures and lifestyles and being accepting of that which hurts and harms people.

I raised valid points that are hardly coincedences.

[Kelly]

That's a cop out. You were clearly willing to spend time quoting them. If your willing to quote them, than you can't claim you don't want to waste your time refuting the points I made. To say that I am opposed to that which hurts people and ruins lives is hardly bigotry. there is a difference between being accepting and tolerant of diverse cultures and lifestyles and being accepting of that which hurts and harms people.

I raised valid points that are hardly coincedences.


*sighs*....I'm going to make this as clear as possible.

I quoted you, for this simple reason. I found your posts to be rude and bigotted........simply quoting for ignorance. Because sometimes such ignorance is edited.

I'm not about to debate that kind of ignorance, because that would VALIDATE your points.....which I do not think are valid.

I'm sorry if this comes off rude.........but as a Southern Independent, I found them quite ridiculous.

[Spider-Bite]

[quote=Kel;16200892
I'm not about to debate that kind of ignorance, because that would VALIDATE your points.....which I do not think are valid.
[/QUOTE]
so whenever you disagree with somebody you refuse to state why you disagree because that would validate their argument?

I guess Obama should never have debated McCain, because it validated his points huh?

Dude man stand up for your beliefs. I'm confident in mine. I don't hide and run from a little challenge.

[Addendum]

You didn't refute my specific points. You merely deleted them from the quote. I knew nobody would try.

Your points are worthless. You mentioned the dictionary for the word liberal. I then use the same dictionary to show that racism, prejudice and bigotry are not part of the definition for conservative, so you pull something out of your ass.

[Spider-Bite]

I'm sorry man but you guys sound kind of cowardly right now. My points are so worthless that you have no rebuttal?

I sure am glad Obama doesnt' debate the way you guys do, or he probably wouldn't be President elect right now.

[Kelly]

so whenever you disagree with somebody you refuse to state why you disagree because that would validate their argument?

I guess Obama should never have debated McCain, because it validated his points huh?

Dude man stand up for your beliefs. I'm confident in mine. I don't hide and run from a little challenge.


#1....I'm not a dude....

#2....and I'm trying very hard to stay respectful in this discussion....so I'm going to leave it with this..........I do not debate ignorance.....I do not run from a discussion, that is extremely evident on this forum.......you want to continue this? You will be debating the wall......

[Spider-Bite]

#1....I'm not a dude....

#2....and I'm trying very hard to stay respectful in this discussion....so I'm going to leave it with this..........I do not debate ignorance.....I do not run from a discussion, that is extremely evident on this forum.......you want to continue this? You will be debating the wall......
that's kind of contradictory.

I refuted all points thrown at me, and my points were not even touched. You waste all this time explaining why you wont refute my points, but then claim you don't want to waste time refuting them. given that, how could you expect anybody to believe your reason for not debating them?

[Addendum]

It's not worth the effort, nor will it make a difference to someone who thinks every single republican and conservative are filled with nothing but prejudice, racism and bigotry.

Would you talk to someone from the stormfront forums who has their mind set on certain beliefs?

[Spider-Bite]

It's not worth the effort, nor will it make a difference to someone who thinks every single republican and conservative are filled with nothing but prejudice, racism and bigotry.

Would you talk to someone from the stormfront forums who has their mind set on certain beliefs?

I never said that. Am I not talking to people right here who have their mind set?

Besides I'm never rock hard committed to any belief, other than the fact that is justified to be compassionate. I have been wrong before and when somebody shows me I'm wrong, I admit it, rather than say "I refuse to debate ignorance."

that is a cop out. That would be like a center refusing to protect the hoop because he doesn't want to validate the opposing team's attempts to shoot.

[Addendum]

I don't waste time trying to "convert" anyone from any belief, no matter if I disagree with it.

[Kelly]

I don't waste time trying to "convert" anyone from any belief, no matter if I disagree with it.


Good attitude to have....

[Spider-Bite]

I don't waste time trying to "convert" anyone from any belief, no matter if I disagree with it.

You've tried to do it to me before. And you know debating is an important part of democracy.

[Spider-Bite]

Good attitude to have....
except that is not his attitude.

[Spider-Bite]

I can't believe this. LOL. People sit here and debate all the time and as soon as they get stuck with no counter argument they claim they don't like to debate LOL

[Addendum]

You've tried to do it to me before. And you know debating is an important part of democracy.

This is a message board to waste time. Also, our nation isn't a democracy. It's a constitutional republic

[redfirebird2008]

Wow, this argument is pretty amusing at this point.

[hippie_hunter]

So about that war going on in Gaza :o

[Spider-Bite]

This is a message board to waste time. Also, our nation isn't a democracy. It's a constitutional republic

I knew somebody was going to say that. I swear I did. Are you suggesting that free speech isn't a good idea and we should move away from demoracy and more towards an Iranian style republic?

[Kelly]

Dude you are now just trying to start a fight........which from what I'm hearing is your usual fair...........no one has even suggested that you have no right to your opinion here.....

[Addendum]

For someone who wants to get into politics, they need to go back to civics class and learn some ****ing basics

Use wikipedia and read up about "constitutional republic".

[Spider-Bite]

Dude you are now just trying to start a fight........which from what I'm hearing is your usual fair...........no one has even suggested that you have no right to your opinion here.....

I thought it was a private matter that I'm not allowed to express my opinion on? I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm trying to debate. I have not said you are an idiot, *******, or anything like that.

I'm not even angry. It's not like your views are based on something evil. I'm just telling it like it is.

Besides didn't you say that I was being bigoted and ignorant and prejudice? That is starting a fight.

I merely told it like it is. Stated my opinion and people tried to suggest I was wrong but then refused to state a counter argument. Your the one getting made because you can't think of a counter argument.

[Kelly]

I thought it was a private matter that I'm not allowed to express my opinion on? I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm trying to debate. I have not said you are an idiot, *******, or anything like that.

I'm not even angry. It's not like your views are based on something evil. I'm just telling it like it is.

Besides didn't you say that I was being bigoted and ignorant and prejudice? That is starting a fight.

I merely told it like it is. Stated my opinion and people tried to suggest I was wrong but then refused to state a counter argument. Your the one getting made because you can't think of a counter argument.


LMAO....*sighs*.....wow.

[Spider-Bite]

For someone who wants to get into politics, they need to go back to civics class and learn some ****ing basics

Use wikipedia and read up about "constitutional republic".

I got plenty of prerequisites in poly sci.

[Addendum]

Message boards aren't debates though. It's nothing more than a simple discussion.

[Spider-Bite]

LMAO....*sighs*.....wow.
see that is what I mean. That has been your entire debate style. You have given many posts now with that simple amount of thought. Why not put out a well thought out post instead of "I refuse to debate ignorance."

[Addendum]

I got plenty of prerequisites in poly sci.

And yet you don't know what a constitutional republic is, and thinks "ZOMG! I cant has free speech in a republik like Iran!!1!!" when someone says that the US isn't a democracy

[Kelly]

see that is what I mean. That has been your entire debate style. You have given many posts now with that simple amount of thought. Why not put out a well thought out post instead of "I refuse to debate ignorance."


Spidey.....please get the clue......I don't care to debate you.....I don't need to be right or wrong....ok? Move on.

[hippie_hunter]

How about we all get back to discussing the current situation in Gaza.

[Addendum]

How about we all get back to discussing the current situation in Gaza.

It's a cluster**** like normal in Israel and the Palestine territories.

Moving on...

[Darkly Dexter]

Actually, I'm watching quite indifferently how these short minded retards from middle east keep killing each other. I'm so tired of it, I'm so tired to see how the son of a **** of Hamas are using civilians as shields and I'm also tired of the insane and totally exaggerated retaliations of the israeli government.

[hippie_hunter]

It's a cluster**** like normal in Israel and the Palestine territories.

Moving on...

Damn...

It's like my manliness in modhood has been taken away :csad:

[Kelly]

Damn...

It's like my manliness in modhood has been taken away :csad:

LMAO...........well, he described it pretty well.....

[Kelly]

Actually, I'm watching quite indifferently how these short minded retards from middle east keep killing each other. I'm so tired of it, I'm so tired to see how the son of a **** of Hamas are using civilians as shields and I'm also tired of the insane and totally exaggerated retaliations of the israeli government.


But how should Israel retaliate.....are you saying we should get involved with our military technology that threads needles with bombs to minimize the casualties.....because with Hamas hiding in the dense settlements where it is hiding.....there is going to be casualties like we have seen without Israel having our technology.

[Addendum]

Well, what else is there to discuss? One side does something to piss off the other (be it uprooting more people from their homes to bring in other people or simply making goofy faces while giving them the finger) and then the other group says "hey let's blow their **** up" and then the other side goes "well, i blow your **** up too", and then the news crews arrive so a journalist can pad their resume in their attempt to be main anchor on the evening news or have their own show on a cable news network, and the leaders and ambassadors all go to the file cabinet to pull out prepared responses for this event, and then things die down after a while. Meanwhile on a message board, someone thinks "let's start a thread to discuss this world event so I can appear to have concern for other people, even though I spend a good chunk of the day on here when I'm not complaining about the guy who is with the girl I'm stalking"

Fast forward a bit, and someone blows a raspberry and the entire thing starts anew.

[Kelly]

Wow........scary thing is.........you have described it perfectly.....

[Matt]

The biggest problem with this whole situation is the lack of a neutral mediator. The US basically always oversees peace talks but how can we really be seen as neutral when Israel is our closest ally (hell, even closer than Britian now-a-days), and we are basically bankrolling their military? That is why peace talks fail and will continue to fail. I say its time China mediates it. They may be a dictatorship, but they are probably the closest thing to a super power without a stake in it.

[Addendum]

Wow........scary thing is.........you have described it perfectly.....

Twice!

That's cynicism for ya

[Kelly]

Hey, its very easy to become cynical about something that has been going on for 2000+ years because neither side is willing to give an inch.

It's worth the cynicism.

[Addendum]

I wish someone on the news would be that blunt about this and other repeating events

[Spider-Bite]

And yet you don't know what a constitutional republic is, and thinks "ZOMG! I cant has free speech in a republik like Iran!!1!!" when someone says that the US isn't a democracy
I know perfectly what it is. And in Iran yo have limited free speech. To make it worse in order to run for President a court has to approve your candidacy to make sure you are compatible with islamic values.

why did you assume I have no idea what a constitutional republic is? Our country is not a democracy, but I want it to be. I know it wont happen anytime soon, but I still want it to be one.

[Spider-Bite]

The biggest problem with this whole situation is the lack of a neutral mediator. The US basically always oversees peace talks but how can we really be seen as neutral when Israel is our closest ally (hell, even closer than Britian now-a-days), and we are basically bankrolling their military? That is why peace talks fail and will continue to fail. I say its time China mediates it. They may be a dictatorship, but they are probably the closest thing to a super power without a stake in it.
good post and I agree with it however


probably the closest thing to a super power without a stake in it

That is probably why it wont happen, unless we can convince them that they do have a stake in it since events in the middle east can directly effect the worldwide economy which includes China. NOt to mention the possiblity of a nuclear war would could lead to a nuclear winter.

[Kelly]

I wish someone on the news would be that blunt about this and other repeating events


Well, I know many around here can't stand Bill O'Reilly.....but he has actually been "that blunt"....about this issue. He can't of course use the world "cluster****" but he gets the point across....

[Spider-Bite]

Well, I know many around here can't stand Bill O'Reilly.....but he has actually been "that blunt"....about this issue. He can't of course use the world "cluster****" but he gets the point across....

Whenever I've heard Bill O'Reily talk about it, he always takes sides with Israel. He even defended the rescent Israeli terrorist attacks against Lebannon.

[Kelly]

Whenever I've heard Bill O'Reily talk about it, he always takes sides with Israel. He even defended the rescent Israeli terrorist attacks against Lebannon.


You do realize that Hamas was "in" Lebanon, and launching rockets "at" Israel, just the same way as they are launching them from Gaza....putting their people in the middle of dense population areas, just like they do everywhere.....

[Spider-Bite]

You do realize that Hamas was "in" Lebanon, and launching rockets "at" Israel, just the same way as they are launching them from Gaza....putting their people in the middle of dense population areas, just like they do everywhere.....
I still consider it to be a terrorist attack. Hezbollah kidnapped two soldiers and offered to return them in exchange for the release of pows from 20 years ago, and Israel killed an awful lot of civillains out of retalliation. I don't remember how many, but I'm pretty sure it was more than a thousand.

[Kelly]

yeah....its a bad situation.......I wrote a paper in college titled...

"One man's terrorist, is another man's hero".....

It's the hard truth of this conflict.

[Darkly Dexter]

The biggest problem with this whole situation is the lack of a neutral mediator. The US basically always oversees peace talks but how can we really be seen as neutral when Israel is our closest ally (hell, even closer than Britian now-a-days), and we are basically bankrolling their military? That is why peace talks fail and will continue to fail. I say its time China mediates it. They may be a dictatorship, but they are probably the closest thing to a super power without a stake in it.


Besides, China is doing a very good job as the mediator in the Six-Party Talks about the North Korean Nuclear Program. So, I guess The United States, The European Union and Russia will agree with it.

[redfirebird2008]

The biggest problem with this whole situation is the lack of a neutral mediator. The US basically always oversees peace talks but how can we really be seen as neutral when Israel is our closest ally (hell, even closer than Britian now-a-days), and we are basically bankrolling their military? That is why peace talks fail and will continue to fail. I say its time China mediates it. They may be a dictatorship, but they are probably the closest thing to a super power without a stake in it.

I don't think Israel trusts China because of China's alliance (based on oil) with Iran. And we know how Israel and Iran feel about each other.

[Kelly]

I think the fact that Jordan and Egypt are now speaking up more will have a good influence on the talks this time........well.................I hope.

[Anubis]

I was talking with my father about this the other day and he brought up how this was just like that scene in that Eddie Murphy movie, Harlem Nights. You know, where Arsenio Hall and his thugs have Murphy penned down in a store front, and they're letting him have it with Tommy guns, except for that one guy with the .22. It's like BRATTTATATATATATABRATTATATAT.......pow...pow. That's kinda how this "war" with Israel and the terrorists has been. Israel lets loose with a huge attack and kills hundreds of people, the terrorists shoot back, take out maybe three. Four. depends on the day. It's kinda ridiculous. You just want Arsenio Hall to go them one day and say "STOP IT!!! DON'T SHOOT THAT LITTLE S**T NO MO!!!"

[StorminNorman]

I still consider it to be a terrorist attack. Hezbollah kidnapped two soldiers and offered to return them in exchange for the release of pows from 20 years ago, and Israel killed an awful lot of civillains out of retalliation. I don't remember how many, but I'm pretty sure it was more than a thousand.


So Israel should simply just give in to terrorist demands? In that region Israel can not afford to show ANY weakness. They are surrounded that people that WANT TO KILL THEM.

[Spider-Bite]

yeah....its a bad situation.......I wrote a paper in college titled...

"One man's terrorist, is another man's hero".....

It's the hard truth of this conflict.

Yeah I by no means agree with Hezbollah kidnapping the two soldiers and I definitely disagree with their hiding rockets in populated cities.

I just feel that with our support Israel had many other options. They could have strengthened border security to prevent it from happening again and they could have used diplomacy to get the soldiers back. It's possible it might not have worked but they didn't even try.

Because of my opinions expressed on Israel I want to go on the record and say that it appears that citizens of Israel enjoy more freedom and stronger civil rights than citizens in most of that region.
A year or two ago homosexual even protested in defense of their civil rights in a parade in Israel.

Could you imagine if that happened in most other middle eastern countries?

I by no means want to see Israel harmed. I merely want us to pressure them into working to acheive peace. I feel guilty by association just from being American, because of the way we have been so biased in favor of Israel.

And to make it worse I think our own religion has played a part in that bias. I have heard many Christains say we should protect Israel, because it says in the bible that it's god's chosen land, and in the wr to end all wars all who sided with Israel will be rewarded.

That just makes it worse and it hurts our crediblity when talking about this conflict. We say to them "you can't kill people because of religion."

[Spider-Bite]

So Israel should simply just give in to terrorist demands? In that region Israel can not afford to show ANY weakness. They are surrounded that people that WANT TO KILL THEM.
And those people have the exact same argument about Israel. "They want to kill us."

I'm saying Israel needs to make an effort to show muslims that isn't true. And muslims, not all muslims of course, need to make an effort to show Israel that not all muslims are a bunch of terrorists.

As many have said both sides are guilty.

[redfirebird2008]

So Israel should simply just give in to terrorist demands? In that region Israel can not afford to show ANY weakness. They are surrounded that people that WANT TO KILL THEM.

Which is precisely why it was idiotic for the U.N. to create Israel in the first place.

[Kelly]

Well the problem is.....this isn't about religion.....if it truly was, peace might could actually happen. But its not, its about land, water and power over the two. When you get people and power in the same place, and you have a group of people that have all of it, and a group of people who have none of it, but wants all of it.....well, as they say, lots of **** happens.....and thats what we get.


Honestly, I would have no problem with the US stepping out of this.....I think we are simply a crutch to Israel, and we are doing the situation absolutely no good.

[Spider-Bite]

LOL, man that is so true. Why not pick a different part of the world? Why specifically name it Israel when you realize all the religious sensitivity surrounding it? They know about the prophecies.

I wonder if the U.N. did that on purpose so we would always have an excuse to meddle in the oil rich region.

[StorminNorman]

And those people have the exact same argument about Israel. "They want to kill us."

I'm saying Israel needs to make an effort to show muslims that isn't true. And muslims, not all muslims of course, need to make an effort to show Israel that not all muslims are a bunch of terrorists.

As many have said both sides are guilty.

Israel doesn't want to kill muslims though. When has Israel gone unprovoked into an Arab Country and started shooting **** just because of religion? Israel has given land to Palestine, which ignores the fact that a lot of former Palestinian land (since Israel didn't take all of it) is now controlled by ARAB neighbors. If Israel is willing to relinquish control of land to Palestan, why shouldn't their Arab neighbors?


Israel may have some blood on their hands, but they are NOT equally guilty. Not even close.

[StorminNorman]

Which is precisely why it was idiotic for the U.N. to create Israel in the first place.


If I had a nickle for everything dumb the U.N. did...

[Spider-Bite]

Well the problem is.....this isn't about religion.....if it truly was, peace might could actually happen. But its not, its about land, water and power over the two. When you get people and power in the same place, and you have a group of people that have all of it, and a group of people who have none of it, but wants all of it.....well, as they say, lots of **** happens.....and thats what we get.


Honestly, I would have no problem with the US stepping out of this.....I think we are simply a crutch to Israel, and we are doing the situation absolutely no good.

I almost completely agree. My only disagreement is that if we stop protecting Israel, muslim nations will invade and nuclear weapons will go off left and right. And if it doesn't create a nuclear winter it will at least blow up a big chunk of the world's oil supply, creating worldwide economic devestation.

If it wasn't for nuclear weapons I'd say get out. But I do wish we would quit acting like a crutch. I think our giving them the green light to do whatever they want actually does increase the chances of nuclear war.

When all the risks are factored in I seriously say we tell Israel to start having a more intelligent foreign policy or they will lose our support.

I think they will agree to it, if they believe us, and at the same time it will improve our image in the middle east.

[Spider-Bite]

Israel doesn't want to kill muslims though. When has Israel gone unprovoked into an Arab Country and started shooting **** just because of religion? Israel has given land to Palestine, which ignores the fact that a lot of former Palestinian land (since Israel didn't take all of it) is now controlled by ARAB neighbors. If Israel is willing to relinquish control of land to Palestan, why shouldn't their Arab neighbors?


Israel may have some blood on their hands, but they are NOT equally guilty. Not even close.

israel continues to build on the neutral zone and expand their territory taking land that isn't theirs.

In addition many in Israel do want to kill muslims. Not all. And even if none of them did, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be trying to prove it. An important part of protecting yourself is working so that others wont want you dead.

[Kelly]

In 1947-48 when this was before the UN, the world as a whole was feeling compassion for the Jews......it was easy to do at the time.

The thing that should have happened, and was actually their first choice was to make Jerusalem an international city......Israel voted against it.....and that could have actually been a major base for peace, but it never happened.

The history of this region is so complex.

In recent history, Israel royally screwed up opening up settlements in areas they really did not need to be in, and it was very childish in their reasoning.

I think the world is now crying apartheid when looking at the palestinians......its very interesting that when you google apartheid, you use to get almost all South Africa.....now you get the palestinians......that is very telling when it comes to the world's perception of this conflict.

[Spider-Bite]

In 1947-48 when this was before the UN, the world as a whole was feeling compassion for the Jews......it was easy to do at the time.

The thing that should have happened, and was actually their first choice was to make Jerusalem an international city......Israel voted against it.....and that could have actually been a major base for peace, but it never happened.

The history of this region is so complex.

In recent history, Israel royally screwed up opening up settlements in areas they really did not need to be in, and it was very childish in their reasoning.

I think the world is now crying apartheid when looking at the palestinians......its very interesting that when you google apartheid, you use to get almost all South Africa.....now you get the palestinians......that is very telling when it comes to the world's perception of this conflict.

a year and a half ago an international poll showed that the world considered the U.S., Israel, and Iran to be the world's most dangerous nations. I forget the exact order though.

Man that sucks so royally. And that is evidence enough that these three countries need change.

[Hobgoblin]

Which is precisely why it was idiotic for the U.N. to create Israel in the first place.

The decision to create Israel was short sighted, to say the least. But know we've made our bed and we have to sleep in it.

This will not be good for anyone.

[The Senator]

I don't have the time to get into a debate on this topic right now. All I know is that I have a friend in Israel who lives several blocks away from a site which was bombed a few days ago and hope that this war ends in the near future.

Both sides are guilty of committing atrocious acts, but I think Israel was right to retaliate this time. Hamas is clearly the ones who initiated this conflict, and Israel has a right to defend itself from their terroristic actions.

[Kelly]

I agree, I'm not sure what people want Israel to do......people keep saying "talks" well hell they had talks, they had a truce, and hamas broke the truce....so that worked well. Hamas hunkers down smack in the middle of women and children......how the hell are you supposed to fight that?

[Ocramed]

It's funny how the more conservative part of the country is the one that had slavery and was last to end segregation. And that is the part of the country that went to Bush.

to deny that racism is the conservative side of the political spectrum lacks credibility. yeah it's a real coincedence that the first black president is a democrat. sheesh.

People actually think that's a coincedence? Really? Just a coincedence?

Funny how you miss Boston, Chicago, New York and other "Liberal" cities that had a lot of racists running it who didn't wear white hoods (you heard of "red-lining"?). Just because there wasn't a Klan Chapter in the North, or ended slavery before the Civil War, that doesn't mean the effects weren't the same. The South, to its credit, was open about their feelings towards minorities, while the North hid them. Otherwise, you wouldn't have had all the riots that took place in the 1960s and 1970s.

And btw, had Colin Powell ran for the US Presidency in 1996, HE would have been the first Black president, and he's Republican.

O.

[Kelly]

oh lord........you must have missed the mod saying, get back on topic......

[hippie_hunter]

BACK ON TOPIC :cmad:

[Spider-Bite]

EDIT: Back on topic :cmad:

[Kelly]

here we go.......lol

[Spider-Bite]

BACK ON TOPIC :cmad:
sorry you posted that as I was typing mine. I wont go back and forth on that in this thread. I'll try to keep it to the gay rights since it's probably more suitable there.

[Spider-Bite]

Hey I already apologized. there was no need to erase my post.

[tranquill]

Israeli dissident analytic writes that IDF op in Gaza is already stuck, Israelis are bogged down, and basically that's the end of the war: http://samsonblinded.org/news/israeli-attack-on-gaza-loses-momentum-5424

[Kelly]

Israeli dissident analytic writes that IDF op in Gaza is already stuck, Israelis are bogged down, and basically that's the end of the war: http://samsonblinded.org/news/israeli-attack-on-gaza-loses-momentum-5424


hmmmm.....well I guess alittle bias on the other side is allowed here...lol


As far as "end of war"? I wish.......

[Kelly]

Fox is going to have a documentary on tomorrow at 9:00 p.m.et. It's a documentary about the son of the man that started Hamas....I won't even try and spell his name......lol Should be interesting. Bill Hemer is the one doing the documentary for those of you that hate Fox.....he's a very good reporter, and should be interesting.

[hippie_hunter]

Hey I already apologized. there was no need to erase my post.

I erased it before you posted that :csad:

[Spider-Bite]

I erased it before you posted that :csad:

oh it's cool. no big deal.

[Nivek]

I agree, I'm not sure what people want Israel to do......people keep saying "talks" well hell they had talks, they had a truce, and hamas broke the truce....so that worked well. Hamas hunkers down smack in the middle of women and children......how the hell are you supposed to fight that?

And alot of people don't understand that. They think Palestinians are a targeted people, when they are never satisfied to maintain peace when they feel they want their part of the region. Palestinians, much like the Jews, are pariahs of the Muslim world. Chumps like Bin Laden and Saddam say they support them, but ask them to help give them land, they get all NIMBY (Not in my back yard)

This isn't something a talk can fix. The world, not just the U.S., needs to step up and tell all sides to knock the S#!t off.

[\S/JcDc\S/]

Population of Israel in 1924 before the "Middle East Crisis" began:

Christians 41%

Muslims 64%

jews 1%

Population of Israel since the jews were "put in charge" and the crisis began:

Christians 2%

Muslims 9%

jews 84%




hmm--- Yet morons in America side with Israel... :rolleyes:

[kainedamo]

I don't have the time to get into a debate on this topic right now. All I know is that I have a friend in Israel who lives several blocks away from a site which was bombed a few days ago and hope that this war ends in the near future.

Both sides are guilty of committing atrocious acts, but I think Israel was right to retaliate this time. Hamas is clearly the ones who initiated this conflict, and Israel has a right to defend itself from their terroristic actions.

I don't think its clear Hamas started the conflict at all. They started the rocket attacks recently sure, but the conflict overall is more complicated than that. The retaliation from the Israeli's is disproportionate. How can you justify the deaths of hundreds in response to the deaths of under a dozen? Any amount of death is too much, but there has to be a better way for Israel to respond. In fact if Israel chose to not respond with violence, they would get more sympathy across the world. Didn't you once say to me that the IRA should never have went violent, that Catholics should have chosen purely peaceful demonstrations? Why can't Israel do that?

If Hamas are terroristic for killing a handful, why is Israel not terroristic for days of relentless air raids that have killed hundreds? Rocket attacks, air raids, both are terrorism if you want to get into it.

[kainedamo]

The problem with Hamas, is they are notorious for building their strongholds smack in the middle of the people, in neighborhoods etc. When you walk out into the middle of a street and launch a rocket...that's a little hard to retaliate against and not see casualties.

The Gaza strip is a very densely populated area, and air strikes aren't exactly fully precise.

[Ace of Knaves]

I think we, as in Britain and America and co should just stay out of it. It's just too messy. If they don't want to be civilized about things just let them get on with it.

[Handsome Rob]

Population of Israel in 1924 before the "Middle East Crisis" began:

Christians 41%

Muslims 64%

jews 1%

Population of Israel since the jews were "put in charge" and the crisis began:

Christians 2%

Muslims 9%

jews 84%




hmm--- Yet morons in America side with Israel... :rolleyes:

In the early 50s, whites made up 70% of the population of Detroit. Now, they make up less than 12%.

I wonder what else we could justify using demographics changes . . . :csad:

[Nivek]

I don't think its clear Hamas started the conflict at all. They started the rocket attacks recently sure, but the conflict overall is more complicated than that.


Um, shooting army ordinance at your enemy is a pretty good trigger for a conflict. It's not like they are shooting Roman Candles.

I never understood why people just immediately blame the jews, despite being shot at or blown up.

[BlackLantern]

I think we, as in Britain and America and co should just stay out of it. It's just too messy. If they don't want to be civilized about things just let them get on with it.

Yea...let them fight it out

[Kelly]

We could let them fight it out, IF....they didn't bring Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the other Persian Gulf countries where we get a good portion of our oil.

When we are dependent only on ourselves for the energy products we need.......we can let them blow each other up. Right now? We just can't do that.

Honestly, I think we should totally back out....IF Israel will unload everything they've got and blow Hamas off the face of the earth. They can do it......and I don't know that countries like Kuwait, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt will say a thing. I think they are now sick of it.

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea Israel has got a sick military.

[Kelly]

We trained them......their airforce is trained at Shephard Airforce Base outside of Wichita Falls, Texas.....they were in all of my college classes. They sat at the back of the room in my Political Science and History classes, and learned english.....

They were cute.....:hehe:

[Ace of Knaves]

I thought the SAS trained their special forces?

[Kelly]

I thought the SAS trained their special forces?


Airforce....that's why they trained at an Airforce base.....lol

[Ace of Knaves]

LOL. I thought you meant their military in general.

[Kelly]

LOL. I thought you meant their military in general.


Oh, I have no idea about the rest of their military.....considering their special forces come here to train people.....I imagine they are fine on their own in that area.:word:

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea they do have a good military for such a small country, I know that much.

[Nivek]

Every NATO Special Forces group had a hand in training Israili SF back in the 50's and 60's. Now they train our guys since they developed their own skill set. They supposedly are THE best in the world right now when it comes to one man army style training. I had a former history teacher from High School who used to be an Airborne Ranger and he told us if some moron decided to stand on an Israli plane and attempt to Hijack it, he will be taken out by a plastic bullet to the skull within seconds. He spent time over there training, and told us without a doubt if they are unleashed they would dominate any War.

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea thats what I've heard.

[Kelly]

Every NATO Special Forces group had a hand in training Israili SF back in the 50's and 60's. Now they train our guys since they developed their own skill set. They supposedly are THE best in the world right now when it comes to one man army style training. I had a former history teacher from High School who used to be an Airborne Ranger and he told us if some moron decided to stand on an Israli plane and attempt to Hijack it, he will be taken out by a plastic bullet to the skull within seconds. He spent time over there training, and told us without a doubt if they are unleashed they would any War.


Oh yeah.......how many of their airlines have hijacked?

I believe our air marshalls are trained by them.....

[Hobgoblin]

We could let them fight it out, IF....they didn't bring Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the other Persian Gulf countries where we get a good portion of our oil.

When we are dependent only on ourselves for the energy products we need.......we can let them blow each other up. Right now? We just can't do that.

Honestly, I think we should totally back out....IF Israel will unload everything they've got and blow Hamas off the face of the earth. They can do it......and I don't know that countries like Kuwait, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt will say a thing. I think they are now sick of it.

You may be right. The rest of the Arab world seems to be as sick of the Palestinians and the Israeli crisis as we are. The problem is Iran. They're the ones funding Hamas and pulling their strings. They're eating this up and the other Muslim nations wont openly disagree with them.

[Kelly]

Exactly......and until the UN gets behind an effort of a coalition of countries to place an embargo against Iran......nothing is going to change. Iran is holding the world hostage at the moment, and the UN is allowing it to happen.

[The Senator]

I don't think its clear Hamas started the conflict at all. They started the rocket attacks recently sure, but the conflict overall is more complicated than that. The retaliation from the Israeli's is disproportionate. How can you justify the deaths of hundreds in response to the deaths of under a dozen? Any amount of death is too much, but there has to be a better way for Israel to respond. In fact if Israel chose to not respond with violence, they would get more sympathy across the world. Didn't you once say to me that the IRA should never have went violent, that Catholics should have chosen purely peaceful demonstrations? Why can't Israel do that?

If Hamas are terroristic for killing a handful, why is Israel not terroristic for days of relentless air raids that have killed hundreds? Rocket attacks, air raids, both are terrorism if you want to get into it.

The fact that you are comparing the IRA to the Israeli government is beyond absurd. The IRA is a terrorist organization, a non-governmental entity. It is incomparable to Israel as both a country and a legitimate government.

It is, however, comparable to Hamas in its illegitimacy... which means that Hamas should be the ones retaliating through peaceful demonstrations, instead of sanctioning suicide bombings, rocket attacks, and other provocations against the Israeli people. The fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization and has launched attacks against Israeli civilians means it is a threat to peace in Israel. As a result, Israel has a right to retaliate however it wants to, in order to ensure the safety of its people and prevent Hamas from coordinating future terrorist attacks.

You want peace in Gaza? Then tell Hamas to grow up and stop murdering Israeli civilians.

[The Senator]

You may be right. The rest of the Arab world seems to be as sick of the Palestinians and the Israeli crisis as we are. The problem is Iran. They're the ones funding Hamas and pulling their strings. They're eating this up and the other Muslim nations wont openly disagree with them.

Iran is not an Arab nation.

[StorminNorman]

I love being on the same side of an issue as jman :up:

[Kelly]

People seem to keep forgetting a few facts....

1. Hamas is notorious for hunkering down in the most desely populated areas of Gaza and then shooting off their rockets...
2. Israel, has been warning the people in these neighborhoods/houses via pamphles out of airplanes and even phone calls when they can.......Palestinians themselves have said these warnings ARE happening.
3. When they stay in these areas, it is there choice.

It is a terrible thing that children are being killed in all of this......its very much the same as a Vietnamese kid walking up to a group of GI's smiling with a grenade behind his back.....its hard to fight a war like that.....you don't know who your true enemy is.

Hell, some of these families have said they are proud to house the Hamas, and have them fighting Israel from their neighborhoods and homes...

[StorminNorman]

People seem to keep forgetting a few facts....

1. Hamas is notorious for hunkering down in the most desely populated areas of Gaza and then shooting off their rockets...
2. Israel, has been warning the people in these neighborhoods/houses via pamphles out of airplanes and even phone calls when they can.......Palestinians themselves have said these warnings ARE happening.
3. When they stay in these areas, it is there choice.

It is a terrible thing that children are being killed in all of this......its very much the same as a Vietnamese kid walking up to a group of GI's smiling with a grenade behind his back.....its hard to fight a war like that.....you don't know who your true enemy is.

Hell, some of these families have said they are proud to house the Hamas, and have them fighting Israel from their neighborhoods and homes...


This is why its so frustrating when people like Kaine act as if Hamas is just misunderstood and on moral even ground with evil Israel. Sickening. :down

[Superman]

People seem to keep forgetting a few facts....

1. Hamas is notorious for hunkering down in the most desely populated areas of Gaza and then shooting off their rockets...
2. Israel, has been warning the people in these neighborhoods/houses via pamphles out of airplanes and even phone calls when they can.......Palestinians themselves have said these warnings ARE happening.
3. When they stay in these areas, it is there choice.

It is a terrible thing that children are being killed in all of this......its very much the same as a Vietnamese kid walking up to a group of GI's smiling with a grenade behind his back.....its hard to fight a war like that.....you don't know who your true enemy is.

Hell, some of these families have said they are proud to house the Hamas, and have them fighting Israel from their neighborhoods and homes...You're forgetting one BIG fact. Where are the people in Gaza suppose to go? Egypt doesn't want them, They've closed the border. The people of Gaza have no place to go, They are trapped between Israel and the Mediterranean Sea. Alot of these people have no choice, They have to stay in Gaza.

[Kelly]

You're forgetting one BIG fact. Where are the people in Gaza suppose to go? Egypt doesn't want them, They've closed the border. The people of Gaza have no place to go, They are trapped between Israel and the Mediterranean Sea. Alot of these people have no choice, They have to stay in Gaza.


Then they damn well need to close their door to Hamas........


You want freedom, you have to be willing to fight for it.....

There has to be defeat within/and on the outside in order to defeat Hamas.....

They made their bed, now they have to sleep in it....

[hippie_hunter]

I don't think its clear Hamas started the conflict at all. They started the rocket attacks recently sure, but the conflict overall is more complicated than that.
Actually the current military operations were instigated by Hamas. Israel's attack is a retaliation for Hamas refusing to continue the cease-fire and launching rockets at Israel. This wouldn't be happening right now if Hamas just simply did not launch their rockets, killing Israeli citizens, and causing massive amounts of property damage.

The retaliation from the Israeli's is disproportionate. How can you justify the deaths of hundreds in response to the deaths of under a dozen? Any amount of death is too much, but there has to be a better way for Israel to respond. In fact if Israel chose to not respond with violence, they would get more sympathy across the world. Didn't you once say to me that the IRA should never have went violent, that Catholics should have chosen purely peaceful demonstrations? Why can't Israel do that?
Israel cannot be compared the IRA. First of all, Israel is a soverign nation, the IRA is a terrorist group.

Second, Israel's actions are the response to Hamas' actions. Hamas provoked this current military action from Israel.

Third, Israel's attacks appear disproportionate because much Hamas' terrorist/military activities are blended in within the Gazan population. A rather cowardly method if you ask me. If Hamas put their armaments and whatnot in military designated areas like legitimate governments do, I highly doubt that we'd be seeing Israel attack civilian areas.

And as StorminNorman said, the Palestinian people don't deserve THAT much sympathy. They're the ones who elected Hamas in their government knowing full well what they do.

If Hamas are terroristic for killing a handful, why is Israel not terroristic for days of relentless air raids that have killed hundreds? Rocket attacks, air raids, both are terrorism if you want to get into it.
Israel's actions aren't terrorism on the basis that this is because Hamas provoked them into this.

[Superman]

Then they damn well need to close their door to Hamas........


You want freedom, you have to be willing to fight for it.....

There has to be defeat within/and on the outside in order to defeat Hamas.....

They made their bed, now they have to sleep in it....
:whatever: Things are not always so black and white. :whatever:

[hippie_hunter]

You're forgetting one BIG fact. Where are the people in Gaza suppose to go? Egypt doesn't want them, They've closed the border. The people of Gaza have no place to go, They are trapped between Israel and the Mediterranean Sea. Alot of these people have no choice, They have to stay in Gaza.

I think Kel kinda said it perfectly on this, the people of Gaza put Hamas in charge. It's not like Hamas just came in and ruthlessly took power and started to oppress their people (asides from the civil war with Fatah). The people of Gaza wanted Hamas in charge.

The Palestinian people should know that they can never have a nation of their own nor peace with Israel with a group like Hamas in charge. They should know that they cannot beat Israel.

They brought this upon themselves. That's how democracy works even if it ends up with bad results such as the rise of the Nazi Party in Germany and for electing an incompetent President in 2004.

[Kelly]

:whatever: Things are not always so black and white. :whatever:

This is far from black and white....

BUT, we have a few facts...

1. There WAS a truce.....HAMAS fired rockets and broke that truce....
2. Palestinians themselves, have said that Israel has been warning before attacks....Palestinians ALSO, have said they are willing to have Hamas in their homes...some as far as to say, they are honored....
3. Palestinians elected Hamas into office, when they knew damn well the rest of the world would not go for that, AND they had a government already in place, the PA, that were hold strong talks with Israel....

Those are facts.....

What makes this gray, not black and white.....are the fact that Israel is not fighting a soverign state that follows geneva rules, wears uniforms, or fights in conventional ways.....


Those are the facts....

[Superman4ever]

Oh, for G-d's sakes!

Violence along Gaza border marks official end of Hamas-Israel truce

Violence along Gaza border marks official end of Hamas-Israel truce
An Israeli soldier directs tank near Kibbutz Kissufim

An Israeli soldier directs a tank near Kibbutz Kissufim, just outside the central Gaza Strip, Photograph: Amir Cohen/Reuters

Sporadic violence along the Gaza-Israel border today marked the official end of a six-month truce between Hamas and Israel.

The Israeli military said Gaza militants fired two rockets into Israel this morning, following heavy rocket fire in recent days, and troops guarding Israeli farmers in fields along the border came under sniper fire from inside Gaza.

The six-month truce has been marred by violence since early November.

Hamas officials declared the agreement dead yesterday, 24 hours before it was due to officially expire. This came after another day of escalating violence, beginning with an Israeli air raid on Gaza, which Hamas has controlled for the past 18 months.

Hamas responded to Israel's attack, which destroyed a weapons store and a rocket factory, by firing eight rockets and five mortars at Israel's southern towns.

"The calm, which was reached with Egyptian sponsorship on 19 June and expires on 19 December, is finished because the enemy did not abide by its obligations," said Ayman Taha, who represented Hamas in talks with other Palestinian factions. "The calm is over."

The truce was due to end today, but has been unravelling ever since Israel crossed into Gaza, killed six Hamas fighters and destroyed a tunnel on 4 November.

So far this week Hamas has fired around 50 rockets. On Wednesday one struck a parking lot near a supermarket in Sderot, the Israeli town that borders Gaza's northern perimeter and bears the brunt of Palestinian missile attacks.

As the fighting escalated, Israel tightened its blockade, forcing the UN Relief and Works Agency, which feeds 750,000 Palestinian refugees in the coastal territory, to suspend food deliveries yesterday.

The eruption of violence follows five months of relative calm in which each side seemed prepared to turn a blind eye to the other's transgressions: Israel maintained its crippling blockade on Gaza and Palestinian militants continued firing a small number of missiles into neighbouring Israeli townships. Now both sides are reassessing.

Earlier this week Israel's defence minister, Ehud Barak, reportedly sent negotiator Amos Gilad to Cairo to seek a last-minute extension, but to no avail.

Although neither side is publicly rushing in, both have an interest in restoring the quiet. For Hamas, the truce has allowed it to redeploy its forces from fighting Israel to cracking down on rival militias. For Israel, the truce not only gave the residents of towns such as Sderot a reprieve, but deflated the hard right's push for a full-scale invasion into Gaza.


Now, who broke the truce first?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/19/israel-hamas-truce-ends

[Superman4ever]

Long version:
Jrg3B4J22uk

Short Version:
WQ26e7D0ZE4

[Superman]

I think Kel kinda said it perfectly on this, the people of Gaza put Hamas in charge. It's not like Hamas just came in and ruthlessly took power and started to oppress their people (asides from the civil war with Fatah). The people of Gaza wanted Hamas in charge.

The Palestinian people should know that they can never have a nation of their own nor peace with Israel with a group like Hamas in charge. They should know that they cannot beat Israel.

They brought this upon themselves. That's how democracy works even if it ends up with bad results such as the rise of the Nazi Party in Germany and for electing an incompetent President in 2004.No he didn't have it perfectly. He said they had a choice to stay or go and the fact is they don't have that choice, That was my point. They have to stay because they have no place to go.

[Superman]

Oh, for G-d's sakes!

Violence along Gaza border marks official end of Hamas-Israel truce

Violence along Gaza border marks official end of Hamas-Israel truce
An Israeli soldier directs tank near Kibbutz Kissufim

An Israeli soldier directs a tank near Kibbutz Kissufim, just outside the central Gaza Strip, Photograph: Amir Cohen/Reuters

Sporadic violence along the Gaza-Israel border today marked the official end of a six-month truce between Hamas and Israel.

The Israeli military said Gaza militants fired two rockets into Israel this morning, following heavy rocket fire in recent days, and troops guarding Israeli farmers in fields along the border came under sniper fire from inside Gaza.

The six-month truce has been marred by violence since early November.

Hamas officials declared the agreement dead yesterday, 24 hours before it was due to officially expire. This came after another day of escalating violence, beginning with an Israeli air raid on Gaza, which Hamas has controlled for the past 18 months.

Hamas responded to Israel's attack, which destroyed a weapons store and a rocket factory, by firing eight rockets and five mortars at Israel's southern towns.

"The calm, which was reached with Egyptian sponsorship on 19 June and expires on 19 December, is finished because the enemy did not abide by its obligations," said Ayman Taha, who represented Hamas in talks with other Palestinian factions. "The calm is over."

The truce was due to end today, but has been unravelling ever since Israel crossed into Gaza, killed six Hamas fighters and destroyed a tunnel on 4 November.

So far this week Hamas has fired around 50 rockets. On Wednesday one struck a parking lot near a supermarket in Sderot, the Israeli town that borders Gaza's northern perimeter and bears the brunt of Palestinian missile attacks.

As the fighting escalated, Israel tightened its blockade, forcing the UN Relief and Works Agency, which feeds 750,000 Palestinian refugees in the coastal territory, to suspend food deliveries yesterday.

The eruption of violence follows five months of relative calm in which each side seemed prepared to turn a blind eye to the other's transgressions: Israel maintained its crippling blockade on Gaza and Palestinian militants continued firing a small number of missiles into neighbouring Israeli townships. Now both sides are reassessing.

Earlier this week Israel's defence minister, Ehud Barak, reportedly sent negotiator Amos Gilad to Cairo to seek a last-minute extension, but to no avail.

Although neither side is publicly rushing in, both have an interest in restoring the quiet. For Hamas, the truce has allowed it to redeploy its forces from fighting Israel to cracking down on rival militias. For Israel, the truce not only gave the residents of towns such as Sderot a reprieve, but deflated the hard right's push for a full-scale invasion into Gaza.



Now, who broke the truce first?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/19/israel-hamas-truce-ends

Long version:
Jrg3B4J22uk

Short Version:
WQ26e7D0ZE4

My point exactly. Things are not always black and white, There are always two sides to every story.

Some of you guys are acting like Israel is innocent in this but the facts show that they are just as guilty as Hamas in pushing for war.

[Paradyme]

The fact that you are comparing the IRA to the Israeli government is beyond absurd. The IRA is a terrorist organization, a non-governmental entity. It is incomparable to Israel as both a country and a legitimate government.

It is, however, comparable to Hamas in its illegitimacy... which means that Hamas should be the ones retaliating through peaceful demonstrations, instead of sanctioning suicide bombings, rocket attacks, and other provocations against the Israeli people. The fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization and has launched attacks against Israeli civilians means it is a threat to peace in Israel. As a result, Israel has a right to retaliate however it wants to, in order to ensure the safety of its people and prevent Hamas from coordinating future terrorist attacks.

You want peace in Gaza? Then tell Hamas to grow up and stop murdering Israeli civilians.

QFT. Excellent post.

[Kelly]

I don't know that anyone here has said Israel is innocent. Lives are being lost on both sides....that sucks.....BUT.................BUT.........there was a cease fire AND Israel was living by that cease fire. FACT......Hamas did not.....

No, Israel is not innocent, they have been moving into areas, setting up settlements that they should not be moving into.....this was talked about a few pages back.

[Nivek]

I think of Israel as a easily pi$$ed off Jewish Godzilla that took back it's nesting place that was occupied by some other pi$$ed off Nomadic creatures. They really should realize that they may fight, but they are fighting a Jewish Godzilla that when pushed will spit out radioactive flame at It's enemies.

You dont provoke Godzilla.

[Superman]

there was a cease fire AND Israel was living by that cease fire. FACT......Hamas did not.....


Would you mind telling me how Israel assassinating members of Hamas BEFORE the missile attacks is living by the cease fire?:whatever:

[hippie_hunter]

I think of Israel as a easily pi$$ed off Jewish Godzilla that took back it's nesting place that was occupied by some other pi$$ed off Nomadic creatures. They really should realize that they may fight, but they are fighting a Jewish Godzilla that when pushed will spit out radioactive flame at It's enemies.

You dont provoke Godzilla.

Wow.....you are like a god of metaphors or something. That has got to be the coolest way for someone to describe the conflict in the Middle East.

[Kelly]

Yes, very moviesque....

[Superman4ever]

I don't know that anyone here has said Israel is innocent. Lives are being lost on both sides....that sucks.....BUT.................BUT.........there was a cease fire AND Israel was living by that cease fire. FACT......Hamas did not.....

No, Israel is not innocent, they have been moving into areas, setting up settlements that they should not be moving into.....this was talked about a few pages back.

The article I just linked states that Israel broke the cease fire on the 4th of November (WAAAAY before any rockets were launched). UN officials, B'Tselem, Amnesty International, Human Rights watch have been stating that Israel broke the ceasefire before that.

They have initiated a blockade on Gaza for months now that had ANY other nation done so would have been cause for harsh language like genocide and murder.

Turn off the TV and read every once and a damn while.

[Superman]

The article I just linked states that Israel broke the cease fire on the 4th of November (WAAAAY before any rockets were launched). UN officials, B'Tselem, Amnesty International, Human Rights watch have been stating that Israel broke the ceasefire before that.

They have initiated a blockade on Gaza for months now that had ANY other nation done so would have been cause for harsh language like genocide and murder.

Turn off the TV and read every once and a damn while.Exactly Supes.

If you're going to talk about "Facts" Kal at least get your facts straight. Israel was not living by that cease fire as you stated as "Fact". The real facts are that Israel broke the cease fire first when they started assassinating members of Hamas in November.

[The Senator]

Yes... because assassinating terrorists is such a bad thing...

[Kelly]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=85e_1230640278

Israel did not go in without provocation......


and it Kel, not Kal....:cwink:


*sighs*

We can debate this forever.....

[Superman]

Yes... because assassinating terrorists is such a bad thing...That's not the point Jman and you know it.

Israel made a deal with Hamas and then they broke that deal. If Hamas was going by the cease fire then Israel should have too.


Cease fire means cease fire, It dosen't mean one side can fire while the other side sits and takes it.

Israel is just as guilty in this as Hamas is.

[Superman]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=85e_1230640278

Israel did not go in without provocation......


and it Kel, not Kal.... :cwink:


*sighs*

We can debate this forever.....Oops, Sorry about that Kel.:woot:

[Kelly]

That's not the point Jman and you know it.

Israel made a deal with Hamas and then they broke that deal. If Hamas was going by the cease fire then Israel should have too.


Cease fire means cease fire, It dosen't mean one side can fire while the other side sits and takes it.

Israel is just as guilty in this as Hamas is.


Oh lord.....now you are going to tell me what I know....???

Greeeeaaaatttt......

Sooooo, Hamas digging tunnels into areas where they could move rockets closer to Israel...and closer to the check points to abduct Israel soldiers, which they have done in the past in the same manner......is ok?


Ok..........................:dry:

[Superman]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=85e_1230640278

Israel did not go in without provocation......


and it Kel, not Kal....:cwink:


*sighs*

We can debate this forever.....So let me get this straight. It's OK for Israel to break the cease fire deal they had with Hamas and go into Gaza and do whatever they want like bomb so called " tunnels" and to assassinat members of Hamas but when Hamas fights back that's wrong?:huh:


You're right though, This could go on forever just like this war between Israel and the Palestinians. Untill BOTH sides decides to stop the fighting and live by the deals they make this will never end.

[Kelly]

Well, actually I think it goes like this.....

1. Israel finds out that tunnels are being dug to their checkpoints, and rockets are being moved in......
2. They bomb those tunnels to protect their soldiers and people...
3. Hamas sends rockets in retaliation.....

I believe our disagreement is in what constitutes breaking the truce......


So I will leave it at that......and agree to disagree.....

[The Senator]

That's not the point Jman and you know it.

Israel made a deal with Hamas and then they broke that deal. If Hamas was going by the cease fire then Israel should have too.


Cease fire means cease fire, It dosen't mean one side can fire while the other side sits and takes it.

Israel is just as guilty in this as Hamas is.

No, Israel is not. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and has been plotting against Israel since it was first conceived. If Israel began "assassinating" members of Hamas, it must have had a good reason, as Kel pointed out. Like the organization was plotting attacks on Israelis, which it has a long history of doing.

Hamas deserves to be crushed. It is an illegitimate government which has sponsored terrorism since its inception. If they want any sympathy, then maybe they'll stop sponsoring violence against Israeli civilians.

[Hobgoblin]

Iran is not an Arab nation.

I'm aware of that. Where did I say that they were? :huh:

[Superman]

Well, actually I think it goes like this.....

1. Israel finds out that tunnels are being dug to their checkpoints, and rockets are being moved in......
2. They bomb those tunnels to protect their soldiers and people...
3. Hamas sends rockets in retaliation.....

I believe our disagreement is in what constitutes breaking the truce......


So I will leave it at that......and agree to disagree.....I'll agree to disagree like you said but I've got to say this.

Just because Israel says they was bombing tunnels that are being dug to their checkpoints doesn't necessarily make it true.

I trust Israel in this about as much as I trust Hamas. They BOTH are looking for any excuse to fight and I believe they will say or do anything to get it going.

That being said I'll leave it aswell.:yay:

[Kelly]

No he didn't have it perfectly. He said they had a choice to stay or go and the fact is they don't have that choice, That was my point. They have to stay because they have no place to go.


No sorry, I have to have the last word on this........






































He is a she.....:cwink:

[The Senator]

I'm aware of that. Where did I say that they were? :huh:

You mentioned the Arab world before discussing Iran, and I wasn't sure if you were including Iran in that category.

[Hobgoblin]

You mentioned the Arab world before discussing Iran, and I wasn't sure if you were including Iran in that category.

Ah, I see. No, I didnt mean to.

[Marx]

That's not the point Jman and you know it.

Israel made a deal with Hamas and then they broke that deal. If Hamas was going by the cease fire then Israel should have too.


Cease fire means cease fire, It dosen't mean one side can fire while the other side sits and takes it.

Israel is just as guilty in this as Hamas is.

Hamas has not been abiding by the ceasefire. Period. Israel was right to attack. As has been said, Hamas is a terrorist government that should have no place in power.

All that being said, both sides have pushed the region into this mess.

[Kurosawa]

Hamas has not been abiding by the ceasefire. Period. Israel was right to attack. As has been said, Hamas is a terrorist government that should have no place in power.

All that being said, both sides have pushed the region into this mess.

Personally, I don't feel either side have conducted themselves in a manner that they deserve control of the region. This situation needs to be controlled by outside forces.

Basically, the Palestinians are maniacs for electing a terrorist government, and the Israelis are idiots for letting Hamas goad them into conflicts which they cannot win.

[Superman]

No, Israel is not. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and has been plotting against Israel since it was first conceived. If Israel began "assassinating" members of Hamas, it must have had a good reason, as Kel pointed out. Like the organization was plotting attacks on Israelis, which it has a long history of doing.

Hamas deserves to be crushed. It is an illegitimate government which has sponsored terrorism since its inception. If they want any sympathy, then maybe they'll stop sponsoring violence against Israeli civilians.Just because YOU think they are a "illegitimate government" doesn't necessarily make it so.

They was voted in BY THE PEOPLE. Whether you like it or not that makes them a legitimate government that Israel is going to have to deal with.

Israel made a deal with Hamas and then turned around and broke that deal. In my book that makes them no better than the people they are fighting.

The only difference is that Israel has better weapons and more bombs.

[Marx]

Just because YOU think they are a "illegitimate government" doesn't necessarily make it so.

They was voted in BY THE PEOPLE. Whether you like it or not that makes them a legitimate government that Israel is going to have to deal with.

Israel made a deal with Hamas and then turned around and broke that deal. In my book that makes them no better than the people they are fighting.

The only difference is that Israel has better weapons and more bombs.

Israel is currently 'dealing' with them.

[Kelly]

Hamas is the government of what state?



Trivia question.....

[Marx]

Palestine

[Superman]

Israel is currently 'dealing' with them.And what is it going to get them by "Dealing with them" this way?

Not a damn thing but more death. Nothing will be gained by doing it this way. It's the same crap both sides have been doing for over 60 years and it's gotten them nowhere.

[Superman]

Hamas has not been abiding by the ceasefire. Period. Israel was right to attack. As has been said, Hamas is a terrorist government that should have no place in power.

All that being said, both sides have pushed the region into this mess.It's my understanding that Hamas was abiding by the ceasefire for at least 4 months untill Israel started assassinating members of Hamas and started bombing the so called tunnels.

Whether or not they should have no place in power is beside the point here. The point is that Israel made a deal with the Hamas government and then broke that deal.

If Israel won't keep their end of the deal then why should Hamas?

[Marx]

It's my understanding that Hamas was abiding by the ceasefire for at least 4 months untill Israel started assassinating members of Hamas and started bombing the so called tunnels.

Whether or not they should have no place in power is beside the point here. The point is that Israel made a deal with the Hamas government and then broke that deal.

If Israel won't keep their end of the deal then why should Hamas?

So if the United States made a deal with Al-Qaeda and then started assassinating it's leadership, you'd see that as wrong?

[gap5ewl]

Alright I really can't take this anymore. Israel gets away with a lot of **** over there because they are U.S.A.'s connection to the middle east and they can simply use the anti-Semite card when a criticism comes towards them. I really think they abuse their top position in the Arab world and I find it tragic that they are invading Gaza. Furthermore, I'm really getting sick of America's war mongering BS. The UN is saying America is blocking a cease fire agreement. Hamas is certainly no victim, they are a terrorist organization, but I think Israel needs to step of there high horse.

[Superman4ever]

Yes... because assassinating terrorists is such a bad thing...

Hold on. I despise Hamas' tactics. I disagree with them. I'm wholly against the attack/targeting of innocent civilians no matter the cause. However, you cannot arbitrarily state "assassinating terrorists is such a bad thing...". That is NOT how diplomacy, civil international politics works. That is savagery. Barbarians used to assassinate people they disagreed with. The American Colonialists used to assassinate Indian Chiefs for being "savages" against white ideals.

Resistance fighters in Nazi Germany were assassinated under Nazi Germany for being a threat to the state. Jews, Irish Catholics, African Americans, [and pretty much ANY ethnicity], Women, Gays were assassinated in America (the mother flippin' melting pot of the world) for being "extremist" at one point in time in our history.

Don't respond with the weak rebuttal that they don't compare. They do. More than you'd like to admit.

Also, J you stated that Hamas has been plotting against Israel since it's inception. Utterly and completely wrong. Israel, spearheaded by Benjamin Netanyhu and Likud, are the ones who BEGAN/funded/supported Hamas. Israel CREATED HAMAS, as an Islamic-social institution that would be a counter to the PLO and Fatah. The point of supporting Hamas? To move the Palestinian people away from a nationalistic goal. So if your point is that Hamas is trying to destroy Israel, well Israel has been trying to destroy any Palestinian identity from the very beginning. So who is in the wrong here?

I'm sure you've heard the "A land for a people for a people without a land"? Propaganda. They talk about Jerusalem as a barren desert before the creation of the Israel state, NOTHING could be further from the truth.

Irgun, Haganah and a handful of other Zionist "Militant" groups used the same terrorist tactics that Hamas is being decried for now. They targeted innocent, unarmed civilians in bombing raids and went steps further with raids on villages,

Have any of you heard of Israel's Plan D ("Tochmit Dalet") strategy?
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0795/9507006.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=3kbU4BIAcrQC&pg=PA295&lpg=PA295&dq=Israel%27s+plan+D&source=web&ots=Szh_UwFaZe&sig=HJ_cAuVNAkvccFyi20bWHEWzQsw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result

^^ It was a program developed by Haganah to cease the development of a Palestinian state in 1948 by greatly reducing the Arab population. What is the definition of ethnic cleansing?

"...the aim of the plan was annexation - the destruction of Arab villages [in the Galilee and the Tel Aviv-Jerusalem corridor] was to be followed by the establishment of Jewish villages in their place."

"I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it."
David Ben-Gurion to the Jewish Agency Executive, June 1938

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story412.html

Read Ilan Pappe and Simha Flapan; go the B'tselem website, there are literally countless Israeli sources that state the same thing.

[Superman]

So if the United States made a deal with Al-Qaeda and then started assassinating it's leadership, you'd see that as wrong?And the country that Al-Qaeda was ELECTED to lead would be....?

Does the phrase apples and oranges mean anything to you?

[Superman4ever]

So if the United States made a deal with Al-Qaeda and then started assassinating it's leadership, you'd see that as wrong?

Ugh, who funded them in the first place? Please tell me that you didn't know that Bin Laden was a CIA tactician. Please please please tell me you don't know this fact cause I'm about to source ex-****ing-plode!

[Superman]

Hold on. I despise Hamas' tactics. I disagree with them. I'm wholly against the attack/targeting of innocent civilians no matter the cause. However, you cannot arbitrarily state "assassinating terrorists is such a bad thing...". That is NOT how diplomacy, civil international politics works. That is savagery. Barbarians used to assassinate people they disagreed with. The American Colonialists used to assassinate Indian Chiefs for being "savages" against white ideals.

Resistance fighters in Nazi Germany were assassinated under Nazi Germany for being a threat to the state. Jews, Irish Catholics, African Americans, [and pretty much ANY ethnicity], Women, Gays were assassinated in America (the mother flippin' melting pot of the world) for being "extremist" at one point in time in our history.

Don't respond with the weak rebuttal that they don't compare. They do. More than you'd like to admit.

Also, J you stated that Hamas has been plotting against Israel since it's inception. Utterly and completely wrong. Israel, spearheaded by Benjamin Netanyhu and Likud, are the ones who BEGAN/funded/supported Hamas. Israel CREATED HAMAS, as an Islamic-social institution that would be a counter to the PLO and Fatah. The point of supporting Hamas? To move the Palestinian people away from a nationalistic goal. So if your point is that Hamas is trying to destroy Israel, well Israel has been trying to destroy any Palestinian identity from the very beginning. So who is in the wrong here?

I'm sure you've heard the "A land for a people for a people without a land"? Propaganda. They talk about Jerusalem as a barren desert before the creation of the Israel state, NOTHING could be further from the truth.

Irgun, Haganah and a handful of other Zionist "Militant" groups used the same terrorist tactics that Hamas is being decried for now. They targeted innocent, unarmed civilians in bombing raids and went steps further with raids on villages,

Have any of you heard of Israel's Plan D ("Tochmit Dalet") strategy?
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0795/9507006.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=3kbU4BIAcrQC&pg=PA295&lpg=PA295&dq=Israel%27s+plan+D&source=web&ots=Szh_UwFaZe&sig=HJ_cAuVNAkvccFyi20bWHEWzQsw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result

^^ It was a program developed by Haganah to cease the development of a Palestinian state in 1948 by greatly reducing the Arab population. What is the definition of ethnic cleansing?

"...the aim of the plan was annexation - the destruction of Arab villages [in the Galilee and the Tel Aviv-Jerusalem corridor] was to be followed by the establishment of Jewish villages in their place."

"I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it."
David Ben-Gurion to the Jewish Agency Executive, June 1938

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story412.html

Read Ilan Pappe and Simha Flapan; go the B'tselem website, there are literally countless Israeli sources that state the same thing.Great post. :up:

[The Overlord]

It's my understanding that Hamas was abiding by the ceasefire for at least 4 months untill Israel started assassinating members of Hamas and started bombing the so called tunnels.

Whether or not they should have no place in power is beside the point here. The point is that Israel made a deal with the Hamas government and then broke that deal.

If Israel won't keep their end of the deal then why should Hamas?

Can you confirm that?

Besides you are ignoring one important detail can Hamas ever win a straight up with Israel? Because if they can't, they should keep their end of the bargain, because Israel has everything to win in a war and Hamas has everything to lose from a war. A diplomatic victory is all Hamas can achieve, never use force if you can't win that way. They are being stupid, frankly sometimes it seems like Hamas places more importance on people killing themselves and "going to heaven" instead of tangible and realistic political objectives.

[Superman4ever]

Can you confirm that?

Besides you are ignoring one important detail can Hamas ever win a straight up with Israel? Because if they can't, they should keep their end of the bargain, because Israel has everything to win in a war and Hamas has everything to lose from a war. A diplomatic victory is all Hamas can achieve, never use force if you can't win that way. They are being stupid, frankly sometimes it seems like Hamas places more importance on people killing themselves and "going to heaven" instead of tangible and realistic political objectives.

The colonialist (a bunch of farmers) were NEVER suppose to win over the Brits.

South Africa was NEVER to be equal.

300 soldiers could never hold off the Persian Empire.

I agree that diplomacy is the best answer but when one side assassinates the other and decimates truce accords.

[Superman]

Can you confirm that?

Besides you are ignoring one important detail can Hamas ever win a straight up with Israel? Because if they can't, they should keep their end of the bargain, because Israel has everything to win in a war and Hamas has everything to lose from a war. A diplomatic victory is all Hamas can achieve, never use force if you can't win that way. They are being stupid, frankly sometimes it seems like Hamas places more importance on people killing themselves and "going to heaven" instead of tangible and realistic political objectives.Confirm what? That Israel broke the ceasefire first? We've been over this already, Go back and read some of Superman4ever's posts.

[Superman4ever]

Hamas has not been abiding by the ceasefire. Period. Israel was right to attack. As has been said, Hamas is a terrorist government that should have no place in power.

All that being said, both sides have pushed the region into this mess.

Interjection: Do you people believe in evidence or is hearsay absolute? Nothing but unsubstantiated and easily refuted BS.

Then with that rational, Likud, America, Australia should have no place in power. All have history in terrorism. Likud is a branch of the terrorist group Irgun. Australia's roots, like America, are saturated in the blood of indigenous people.

America's CIA is the world's largest terrorist organization (probably to EVER exist). Just a quick run down of the people they support/assist: Contra, Taliban, EVERY Mid-East despot (for oil or some commercial interest of course), Batista, Noriega, Shah (the removal of Mossadegh is quite illuminating), MK-ULTRA program, Guatemala '54, Vietnam 54-58, Hungry 56, Loas 57-73, Haiti 59, The Bay of Pigs; Dominican Republic, Equedore, Congo 61-63;

1965: Indonesia, Dominican Republic, Greece, Congo.

Oh, what the hell!

1966

The Ramparts Affair — The radical magazine Ramparts begins a series of unprecedented anti-CIA articles. Among their scoops: the CIA has paid the University of Michigan $25 million dollars to hire "professors" to train South Vietnamese students in covert police methods. MIT and other universities have received similar payments. Ramparts also reveals that the National Students’ Association is a CIA front. Students are sometimes recruited through blackmail and bribery, including draft deferments.

1967

Greece — A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the government two days before the elections. The favorite to win was George Papandreous, the liberal candidate. During the next six years, the "reign of the colonels" — backed by the CIA — will usher in the widespread use of torture and murder against political opponents. When a Greek ambassador objects to President Johnson about U.S. plans for Cypress, Johnson tells him: "**** your parliament and your constitution."

Operation PHEONIX — The CIA helps South Vietnamese agents identify and then murder alleged Viet Cong leaders operating in South Vietnamese villages. According to a 1971 congressional report, this operation killed about 20,000 "Viet Cong."

1968

Operation CHAOS — The CIA has been illegally spying on American citizens since 1959, but with Operation CHAOS, President Johnson dramatically boosts the effort. CIA agents go undercover as student radicals to spy on and disrupt campus organizations protesting the Vietnam War. They are searching for Russian instigators, which they never find. CHAOS will eventually spy on 7,000 individuals and 1,000 organizations.

Bolivia — A CIA-organized military operation captures legendary guerilla Che Guevara. The CIA wants to keep him alive for interrogation, but the Bolivian government executes him to prevent worldwide calls for clemency.

1969

Uruguay — The notorious CIA torturer Dan Mitrione arrives in Uruguay, a country torn with political strife. Whereas right-wing forces previously used torture only as a last resort, Mitrione convinces them to use it as a routine, widespread practice. "The precise pain, in the precise place, in the precise amount, for the desired effect," is his motto. The torture techniques he teaches to the death squads rival the Nazis’. He eventually becomes so feared that revolutionaries will kidnap and murder him a year later.

1970

Cambodia — The CIA overthrows Prince Sahounek, who is highly popular among Cambodians for keeping them out of the Vietnam War. He is replaced by CIA puppet Lon Nol, who immediately throws Cambodian troops into battle. This unpopular move strengthens once minor opposition parties like the Khmer Rouge, which achieves power in 1975 and massacres millions of its own people.

1971

Bolivia — After half a decade of CIA-inspired political turmoil, a CIA-backed military coup overthrows the leftist President Juan Torres. In the next two years, dictator Hugo Banzer will have over 2,000 political opponents arrested without trial, then tortured, raped and executed.

Haiti — "Papa Doc" Duvalier dies, leaving his 19-year old son "Baby Doc" Duvalier the dictator of Haiti. His son continues his bloody reign with full knowledge of the CIA.

1972

The Case-Zablocki Act — Congress passes an act requiring congressional review of executive agreements. In theory, this should make CIA operations more accountable. In fact, it is only marginally effective.

Cambodia — Congress votes to cut off CIA funds for its secret war in Cambodia.

Wagergate Break-in — President Nixon sends in a team of burglars to wiretap Democratic offices at Watergate. The team members have extensive CIA histories, including James McCord, E. Howard Hunt and five of the Cuban burglars. They work for the Committee to Reelect the President (CREEP), which does dirty work like disrupting Democratic campaigns and laundering Nixon’s illegal campaign contributions. CREEP’s activities are funded and organized by another CIA front, the Mullen Company.

1973

Chile — The CIA overthrows and assassinates Salvador Allende, Latin America’s first democratically elected socialist leader. The problems begin when Allende nationalizes American-owned firms in Chile. ITT offers the CIA $1 million for a coup (reportedly refused). The CIA replaces Allende with General Augusto Pinochet, who will torture and murder thousands of his own countrymen in a crackdown on labor leaders and the political left.

CIA begins internal investigations — William Colby, the Deputy Director for Operations, orders all CIA personnel to report any and all illegal activities they know about. This information is later reported to Congress.

Watergate Scandal — The CIA’s main collaborating newspaper in America, The Washington Post, reports Nixon’s crimes long before any other newspaper takes up the subject. The two reporters, Woodward and Bernstein, make almost no mention of the CIA’s many fingerprints all over the scandal. It is later revealed that Woodward was a Naval intelligence briefer to the White House, and knows many important intelligence figures, including General Alexander Haig. His main source, "Deep Throat," is probably one of those.

CIA Director Helms Fired — President Nixon fires CIA Director Richard Helms for failing to help cover up the Watergate scandal. Helms and Nixon have always disliked each other. The new CIA director is William Colby, who is relatively more open to CIA reform.

1974

CHAOS exposed — Pulitzer prize winning journalist Seymour Hersh publishes a story about Operation CHAOS, the domestic surveillance and infiltration of anti-war and civil rights groups in the U.S. The story sparks national outrage.

Angleton fired — Congress holds hearings on the illegal domestic spying efforts of James Jesus Angleton, the CIA’s chief of counterintelligence. His efforts included mail-opening campaigns and secret surveillance of war protesters. The hearings result in his dismissal from the CIA.

House clears CIA in Watergate — The House of Representatives clears the CIA of any complicity in Nixon’s Watergate break-in.

The Hughes Ryan Act — Congress passes an amendment requiring the president to report nonintelligence CIA operations to the relevant congressional committees in a timely fashion.

1975

Australia — The CIA helps topple the democratically elected, left-leaning government of Prime Minister Edward Whitlam. The CIA does this by giving an ultimatum to its Governor-General, John Kerr. Kerr, a longtime CIA collaborator, exercises his constitutional right to dissolve the Whitlam government. The Governor-General is a largely ceremonial position appointed by the Queen; the Prime Minister is democratically elected. The use of this archaic and never-used law stuns the nation.

Angola — Eager to demonstrate American military resolve after its defeat in Vietnam, Henry Kissinger launches a CIA-backed war in Angola. Contrary to Kissinger’s assertions, Angola is a country of little strategic importance and not seriously threatened by communism. The CIA backs the brutal leader of UNITAS, Jonas Savimbi. This polarizes Angolan politics and drives his opponents into the arms of Cuba and the Soviet Union for survival. Congress will cut off funds in 1976, but the CIA is able to run the war off the books until 1984, when funding is legalized again. This entirely pointless war kills over 300,000 Angolans.

"The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence" — Victor Marchetti and John Marks publish this whistle-blowing history of CIA crimes and abuses. Marchetti has spent 14 years in the CIA, eventually becoming an executive assistant to the Deputy Director of Intelligence. Marks has spent five years as an intelligence official in the State Department.

"Inside the Company" — Philip Agee publishes a diary of his life inside the CIA. Agee has worked in covert operations in Latin America during the 60s, and details the crimes in which he took part.

Congress investigates CIA wrong-doing — Public outrage compels Congress to hold hearings on CIA crimes. Senator Frank Church heads the Senate investigation ("The Church Committee"), and Representative Otis Pike heads the House investigation. (Despite a 98 percent incumbency reelection rate, both Church and Pike are defeated in the next elections.) The investigations lead to a number of reforms intended to increase the CIA’s accountability to Congress, including the creation of a standing Senate committee on intelligence. However, the reforms prove ineffective, as the Iran/Contra scandal will show. It turns out the CIA can control, deal with or sidestep Congress with ease.

The Rockefeller Commission — In an attempt to reduce the damage done by the Church Committee, President Ford creates the "Rockefeller Commission" to whitewash CIA history and propose toothless reforms. The commission’s namesake, Vice President Nelson Rockefeller, is himself a major CIA figure. Five of the commission’s eight members are also members of the Council on Foreign Relations, a CIA-dominated organization.

1979

Iran — The CIA fails to predict the fall of the Shah of Iran, a longtime CIA puppet, and the rise of Muslim fundamentalists who are furious at the CIA’s backing of SAVAK, the Shah’s bloodthirsty secret police. In revenge, the Muslims take 52 Americans hostage in the U.S. embassy in Tehran.

Afghanistan — The Soviets invade Afghanistan. The CIA immediately begins supplying arms to any faction willing to fight the occupying Soviets. Such indiscriminate arming means that when the Soviets leave Afghanistan, civil war will erupt. Also, fanatical Muslim extremists now possess state-of-the-art weaponry. One of these is Sheik Abdel Rahman, who will become involved in the World Trade Center bombing in New York.

El Salvador — An idealistic group of young military officers, repulsed by the massacre of the poor, overthrows the right-wing government. However, the U.S. compels the inexperienced officers to include many of the old guard in key positions in their new government. Soon, things are back to "normal" — the military government is repressing and killing poor civilian protesters. Many of the young military and civilian reformers, finding themselves powerless, resign in disgust.

Nicaragua — Anastasios Samoza II, the CIA-backed dictator, falls. The Marxist Sandinistas take over government, and they are initially popular because of their commitment to land and anti-poverty reform. Samoza had a murderous and hated personal army called the National Guard. Remnants of the Guard will become the Contras, who fight a CIA-backed guerilla war against the Sandinista government throughout the 1980s.

1980

El Salvador — The Archbishop of San Salvador, Oscar Romero, pleads with President Carter "Christian to Christian" to stop aiding the military government slaughtering his people. Carter refuses. Shortly afterwards, right-wing leader Roberto D’Aubuisson has Romero shot through the heart while saying Mass. The country soon dissolves into civil war, with the peasants in the hills fighting against the military government. The CIA and U.S. Armed Forces supply the government with overwhelming military and intelligence superiority. CIA-trained death squads roam the countryside, committing atrocities like that of El Mazote in 1982, where they massacre between 700 and 1000 men, women and children. By 1992, some 63,000 Salvadorans will be killed.

1981

Iran/Contra Begins — The CIA begins selling arms to Iran at high prices, using the profits to arm the Contras fighting the Sandinista government in Nicaragua. President Reagan vows that the Sandinistas will be "pressured" until "they say ‘uncle.’" The CIA’s Freedom Fighter’s Manual disbursed to the Contras includes instruction on economic sabotage, propaganda, extortion, bribery, blackmail, interrogation, torture, murder and political assassination.

1983

Honduras — The CIA gives Honduran military officers the Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual – 1983, which teaches how to torture people. Honduras’ notorious "Battalion 316" then uses these techniques, with the CIA’s full knowledge, on thousands of leftist dissidents. At least 184 are murdered.

1984

The Boland Amendment — The last of a series of Boland Amendments is passed. These amendments have reduced CIA aid to the Contras; the last one cuts it off completely. However, CIA Director William Casey is already prepared to "hand off" the operation to Colonel Oliver North, who illegally continues supplying the Contras through the CIA’s informal, secret, and self-financing network. This includes "humanitarian aid" donated by Adolph Coors and William Simon, and military aid funded by Iranian arms sales.

1986

Eugene Hasenfus — Nicaragua shoots down a C-123 transport plane carrying military supplies to the Contras. The lone survivor, Eugene Hasenfus, turns out to be a CIA employee, as are the two dead pilots. The airplane belongs to Southern Air Transport, a CIA front. The incident makes a mockery of President Reagan’s claims that the CIA is not illegally arming the Contras.

Iran/Contra Scandal — Although the details have long been known, the Iran/Contra scandal finally captures the media’s attention in 1986. Congress holds hearings, and several key figures (like Oliver North) lie under oath to protect the intelligence community. CIA Director William Casey dies of brain cancer before Congress can question him. All reforms enacted by Congress after the scandal are purely cosmetic.

Haiti — Rising popular revolt in Haiti means that "Baby Doc" Duvalier will remain "President for Life" only if he has a short one. The U.S., which hates instability in a puppet country, flies the despotic Duvalier to the South of France for a comfortable retirement. The CIA then rigs the upcoming elections in favor of another right-wing military strongman. However, violence keeps the country in political turmoil for another four years. The CIA tries to strengthen the military by creating the National Intelligence Service (SIN), which suppresses popular revolt through torture and assassination.

1989

Panama — The U.S. invades Panama to overthrow a dictator of its own making, General Manuel Noriega. Noriega has been on the CIA’s payroll since 1966, and has been transporting drugs with the CIA’s knowledge since 1972. By the late 80s, Noriega’s growing independence and intransigence have angered Washington… so out he goes.

1990

Haiti — Competing against 10 comparatively wealthy candidates, leftist priest Jean-Bertrand Aristide captures 68 percent of the vote. After only eight months in power, however, the CIA-backed military deposes him. More military dictators brutalize the country, as thousands of Haitian refugees escape the turmoil in barely seaworthy boats. As popular opinion calls for Aristide’s return, the CIA begins a disinformation campaign painting the courageous priest as mentally unstable.

1991

The Gulf War — The U.S. liberates Kuwait from Iraq. But Iraq’s dictator, Saddam Hussein, is another creature of the CIA. With U.S. encouragement, Hussein invaded Iran in 1980. During this costly eight-year war, the CIA built up Hussein’s forces with sophisticated arms, intelligence, training and financial backing. This cemented Hussein’s power at home, allowing him to crush the many internal rebellions that erupted from time to time, sometimes with poison gas. It also gave him all the military might he needed to conduct further adventurism — in Kuwait, for example.

The Fall of the Soviet Union — The CIA fails to predict this most important event of the Cold War. This suggests that it has been so busy undermining governments that it hasn’t been doing its primary job: gathering and analyzing information. The fall of the Soviet Union also robs the CIA of its reason for existence: fighting communism. This leads some to accuse the CIA of intentionally failing to predict the downfall of the Soviet Union. Curiously, the intelligence community’s budget is not significantly reduced after the demise of communism.

1992

Economic Espionage — In the years following the end of the Cold War, the CIA is increasingly used for economic espionage. This involves stealing the technological secrets of competing foreign companies and giving them to American ones. Given the CIA’s clear preference for dirty tricks over mere information gathering, the possibility of serious criminal behavior is very great indeed.

1993

Haiti — The chaos in Haiti grows so bad that President Clinton has no choice but to remove the Haitian military dictator, Raoul Cedras, on threat of U.S. invasion. The U.S. occupiers do not arrest Haiti’s military leaders for crimes against humanity, but instead ensure their safety and rich retirements. Aristide is returned to power only after being forced to accept an agenda favorable to the country’s ruling class.



And that site only goes up to 93!

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html

coPRpGQyS_c

And the truth shall set you free.

[Kelly]

Palestine


Palestine is not a state.....


Which is part of the problem......Hamas is not a government over any soveriegn piece of land.....

[The Senator]

And the country that Al-Qaeda was ELECTED to lead would be....?

Does the phrase apples and oranges mean anything to you?

Palestine is not a country. Therefore, Hamas is an illegitimate government.

[The Senator]

Hold on. I despise Hamas' tactics. I disagree with them. I'm wholly against the attack/targeting of innocent civilians no matter the cause. However, you cannot arbitrarily state "assassinating terrorists is such a bad thing...". That is NOT how diplomacy, civil international politics works. That is savagery. Barbarians used to assassinate people they disagreed with. The American Colonialists used to assassinate Indian Chiefs for being "savages" against white ideals.

Resistance fighters in Nazi Germany were assassinated under Nazi Germany for being a threat to the state. Jews, Irish Catholics, African Americans, [and pretty much ANY ethnicity], Women, Gays were assassinated in America (the mother flippin' melting pot of the world) for being "extremist" at one point in time in our history.

Don't respond with the weak rebuttal that they don't compare. They do. More than you'd like to admit.

Also, J you stated that Hamas has been plotting against Israel since it's inception. Utterly and completely wrong. Israel, spearheaded by Benjamin Netanyhu and Likud, are the ones who BEGAN/funded/supported Hamas. Israel CREATED HAMAS, as an Islamic-social institution that would be a counter to the PLO and Fatah. The point of supporting Hamas? To move the Palestinian people away from a nationalistic goal. So if your point is that Hamas is trying to destroy Israel, well Israel has been trying to destroy any Palestinian identity from the very beginning. So who is in the wrong here?

I'm sure you've heard the "A land for a people for a people without a land"? Propaganda. They talk about Jerusalem as a barren desert before the creation of the Israel state, NOTHING could be further from the truth.

Irgun, Haganah and a handful of other Zionist "Militant" groups used the same terrorist tactics that Hamas is being decried for now. They targeted innocent, unarmed civilians in bombing raids and went steps further with raids on villages,

Have any of you heard of Israel's Plan D ("Tochmit Dalet") strategy?
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0795/9507006.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=3kbU4BIAcrQC&pg=PA295&lpg=PA295&dq=Israel%27s+plan+D&source=web&ots=Szh_UwFaZe&sig=HJ_cAuVNAkvccFyi20bWHEWzQsw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result

^^ It was a program developed by Haganah to cease the development of a Palestinian state in 1948 by greatly reducing the Arab population. What is the definition of ethnic cleansing?

"...the aim of the plan was annexation - the destruction of Arab villages [in the Galilee and the Tel Aviv-Jerusalem corridor] was to be followed by the establishment of Jewish villages in their place."

"I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it."
David Ben-Gurion to the Jewish Agency Executive, June 1938

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story412.html

Read Ilan Pappe and Simha Flapan; go the B'tselem website, there are literally countless Israeli sources that state the same thing.

Diplomatic efforts end the moment one side begins plotting against the other, jeopardizing the safety and security of civilians and government operations. Hamas plotted against the Israelis and gave the Israeli government reason to worry about the safety of its people. As a result, those in charge of the terrorist organization deserved to be wiped out, as it was most likely the only way to truly dissolve any plots the barbarians in charge of Hamas had against Israel at the time.

You cannot chat about maintaining the peace over tea and scones when there are evil, maniacal people operating within Hamas. The fact of the matter is, there will never be a peace agreement between Hamas and Israel which can be maintained, because many within Hamas have a pre-existing agenda which includes using violence as a leverage tool. The Israeli government uses violence as a response mechanism, and they do not explicitly attack against Hamas unless provoked.

As I said in an earlier post, if Hamas truly wants peace, it will stop murdering Israeli civilians and shrugging it's shoulders in an "it wasn't us!" pose. But I don't think Hamas is mature enough to handle peaceful protests and diplomacy.

[The Overlord]

The colonialist (a bunch of farmers) were NEVER suppose to win over the Brits.

South Africa was NEVER to be equal.

300 soldiers could never hold off the Persian Empire.

I agree that diplomacy is the best answer but when one side assassinates the other and decimates truce accords.

Most of those conflicts did not involve the technological disparity that exists today, so they are kinda irrelevant to this discussion, in modern conflicts there is no way a vastly technologically inferior group can defeat a technologically superior group. Heck in terms of training Isarael is vastly superior.

Let me ask you this, can you make a factual case on how Hamas can beat Israel in a direct conflict. Do you have any facts to support this notion?
Because it seems to me unless the God they so devoted to, actually comes down and helps them, they don't have prayer. So are you basing this notion facts or emotions?

We also have consider why Israel wants to eliminate Hamas, when hamas says its goal is to destroy Israel, so Israel has no reason to work with them. You know if Hamas used peaceful resistance tactics instead, there would be way more pressure on Israel to concede more points.

You used South Africa as example, put you are ignoring that that movement was led by Nelson Mandela, who was very much a moral pragmatic person, Hamas is filled reactionary, fundamentalist homophobic idiots, if the Palestinians had their version of Mandela, they have a chance, but they don't have that at the moment.

Hamas has even managed to lose all European support the Palestinians and what does launching rockets accomplish, what does creating a death cult in the Palestinian era accomplish? The fact is Hamas is a vile and backwards organization and I will not be sad to see it go. They are not doing Palestine any favours here.

[Superman4ever]

Most of those conflicts did not involve the technological disparity that exists today, so they are kinda irrelevant to this discussion, in modern conflicts there is no way a vastly technologically inferior group can defeat a technologically superior group. Heck in terms of training Isarael is vastly superior.

Let me ask you this, can you make a factual case on how Hamas can beat Israel in a direct conflict. Do you have any facts to support this notion?
Because it seems to me unless the God they so devoted to, actually comes down and helps them, they don't have prayer. So are you basing this notion facts or emotions?

We also have consider why Israel wants to eliminate Hamas, when hamas says its goal is to destroy Israel, so Israel has no reason to work with them. You know if Hamas used peaceful resistance tactics instead, there would be way more pressure on Israel to concede more points.

You used South Africa as example, put you are ignoring that that movement was led by Nelson Mandela, who was very much a moral pragmatic person, Hamas is filled reactionary, fundamentalist homophobic idiots, if the Palestinians had their version of Mandela, they have a chance, but they don't have that at the moment.

Hamas has even managed to lose all European support the Palestinians and what does launching rockets accomplish, what does creating a death cult in the Palestinian era accomplish? The fact is Hamas is a vile and backwards organization and I will not be sad to see it go. They are not doing Palestine any favours here.

Again, I don't support Hamas or it's action (I want them gone too), but this "David can NEVER win..." rhetoric has been going on for a long while. Palestine WILL be a sovereign country one day. There is no question about this. G-d willingly along side peacefully with Israel, where exchange between the two can be as natural as crossing your arms.

[BlackLantern]

I've always wondered why neither side had been pushed to the point of declaring war on the other??

[Nivek]

It cant be all that complicated to fix the situation, they did in Dont mess with the Zohan.

[raybia]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11521

[The Overlord]

Again, I don't support Hamas or it's action (I want them gone too), but this "David can NEVER win..." rhetoric has been going on for a long while. Palestine WILL be a sovereign country one day. There is no question about this. G-d willingly along side peacefully with Israel, where exchange between the two can be as natural as crossing your arms.

The Palestinians could get their own state a lot faster, if they would stop being stupid, switch to non violent tactics and have realistic objectives. What does launching missiles at Israel accomplish? Nothing! It just pisses them off and ensures stuff like this happens. Hamas seems more interested in creating a death cult then presenting real solutions to the problems

And frankly God is part of the problem here, both sides think God gave them that worthless strip of desert and they have kill each other rather share the damn thing. God must be forgetful or have a cruel sense of humour, either I guess we should thankful that he was never really clear on who owns that crap sack part of the planet and decides to let people duke it out instead, clearly this part of grand plan. :whatever: Frankly if I lived there, i would try to move as soon as I could. Hamas puts so much faith in God, they have done little to improve their society or even prepare for a proper war with Israel, they made god their general and they are fools for it.

Frankly there is no certainty of peace here, there is way darker end game that could occur. I bet the Israelis have end game plan if they ever did get pushed into the sea and I bet we all don't see it, but it could happen and Hamas trying to start a fight Israel merely ensures the likely hood the very bad end game occurs. I don't want that to happen, but what I want is irrelevant compared to what will occur. Hamas is doing itself and Palestine the ultimate disservice here.

[The Senator]

Just because YOU think they are a "illegitimate government" doesn't necessarily make it so.

They was voted in BY THE PEOPLE. Whether you like it or not that makes them a legitimate government that Israel is going to have to deal with.

Israel made a deal with Hamas and then turned around and broke that deal. In my book that makes them no better than the people they are fighting.

The only difference is that Israel has better weapons and more bombs.

But there is no Palestinian state. If I got a group of my gay brethren together and formed a government, would that make us legitimate? It wouldn't, not under national or international law. Hamas, therefore, is an illegitimate government. The Palestinians may have elected these leaders into power, but without a state, it is an illegitimate government with no global power. Hence, Hamas doesn't deserve to be recognized by Israel, let alone treated with respect by the international community.

[Kelly]

I'm not even sure that they hold the same power as a microstate......

I don't think they do, because I know Kurdistan doesn't and they are more viable than Palestine/Gaza....

[Superman4ever]

But there is no Palestinian state. If I got a group of my gay brethren together and formed a government, would that make us legitimate? It wouldn't, not under national or international law. Hamas, therefore, is an illegitimate government. The Palestinians may have elected these leaders into power, but without a state, it is an illegitimate government with no global power. Hence, Hamas doesn't deserve to be recognized by Israel, let alone treated with respect by the international community.

And under international law, Geneva conventions: occupation, ethnic cleansing, the deliberate cessation of food aid and medical supplies, Children prisoners, deliberate targeting of civilians (when you send a one ton bomb in the cage of the MOST densely populated strip of land in the world, y'know exactly the loss of innocent life); and apartheid are illegal.

So for the action of a few militants ALL of Gaza has to pay? 400, 500 what's the count now? I swear had this been ANY other place you would have been screaming international crimes.

“we adopt the system of aggressive defense; with every Arab attack we must respond with a decisive blow: the destruction of the place or the expulsion of the residents along with the seizure of the place.”
(Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 176-177 and Israel: A History, p. 156)

“houses were destroyed not in battle, but as punishment . . . and in order to CHASE AWAY the inhabitants . . . contrary to government policy.” (Righteous Victims, p. 328)

“The Arabs of the land of Israel [ Palestinians] have only one function left to them — to run away.”
(Benny Morris, p. 218)


We can spin this all day, but it's not leading anywhere.

[hippie_hunter]

I'm not even sure that they hold the same power as a microstate......
A microstate still holds a small bit of sovereign territory, unlike the Palestinian government.

I don't think they do, because I know Kurdistan doesn't and they are more viable than Palestine/Gaza....
I think Kurdistan has become more viable on the basis that they know that a Kurdish state is unobtainable at the time and they aren't using deplorable tactics like Hamas. Instead, they've become more integrated into the Iraqi government and given a rather good amount of autonomy.

[The Overlord]

And under international law, Geneva conventions: occupation, ethnic cleansing, the deliberate cessation of food aid and medical supplies, Children prisoners, deliberate targeting of civilians (when you send a one ton bomb in the cage of the MOST densely populated strip of land in the world, y'know exactly the loss of innocent life); and apartheid are illegal.

So for the action of a few militants ALL of Gaza has to pay? 400, 500 what's the count now? I swear had this been ANY other place you would have been screaming international crimes.

“we adopt the system of aggressive defense; with every Arab attack we must respond with a decisive blow: the destruction of the place or the expulsion of the residents along with the seizure of the place.”
(Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 176-177 and Israel: A History, p. 156)

“houses were destroyed not in battle, but as punishment . . . and in order to CHASE AWAY the inhabitants . . . contrary to government policy.” (Righteous Victims, p. 328)

“The Arabs of the land of Israel [ Palestinians] have only one function left to them — to run away.”
(Benny Morris, p. 218)


We can spin this all day, but it's not leading anywhere.

Yeah and there's a bunch of human rights regarding Hamas, the PLO and bunch of other groups in the Palestinian area, this is not black and white situation, its mostly gray.

However, you can argue which side is more moral, but here's one thing that isn't very debatable, Israel is far rational then Hamas (though there is a far amount stupidity on Israel's side, but still they aren't totally bonkers like Hamas). Israel's objectives are far more realistic, then Hamas' and Israel tends to rely way less on God to get things done then Hamzs does. Hamas has turned Gaza into a giant death cult, Israel has never done anything that nuts.

I always prefer rational to irrational ones, rational players may act immoral sometimes, but you know where they stand, irrational, you never know where they stand, because their logic and methods make sense.

Plus it seems like you believe in the Bush version of democracy, that its only about elections. That's not case, a democracy also needs a civil society, rule of law and certain human rights standards, so Hamas may be elected, but that hardly makes them Democratic.

[Kelly]

Israel is going about this in the wrong way....I think we can all agree on that.....


But, Hamas....IS A TERRORIST GROUP......that use women and children to hide behind.....and I will not give them an ounce of respect.

As was said above....Israel may be stupid in all of this, but they are far more rational, they have a sovereign government.....

LMAO, Supes you keep spouting international law this......international law that................ HELLO HAMAS DOES NOT FOLLOW THOSE RULES......

So you are going to hold one group accountable to those laws and not another.....


wow, thats logical....

[Bunker]

When Israel says their war is with Hamas and not with the people, that's just like saying we're waging a war with the Republican party, but not America.

[The Overlord]

When Israel says their war is with Hamas and not with the people, that's just like saying we're waging a war with the Republican party, but not America.

I would get behind that though! Yeah!

[Marx]

Palestine is not a state.....


Which is part of the problem......Hamas is not a government over any soveriegn piece of land.....

You're quite tricksy, aren't you? It was late, and I thought you were referring to what region they governed. I am fully aware that Palestine is not a state.

http://forums.superherohype.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

Ugh, who funded them in the first place? Please tell me that you didn't know that Bin Laden was a CIA tactician. Please please please tell me you don't know this fact cause I'm about to source ex-****ing-plode!

Cite all the sources you like, but I still find it disheartening that you are defending a terrorist organization and an illegitimate government.

[The Senator]

And under international law, Geneva conventions: occupation, ethnic cleansing, the deliberate cessation of food aid and medical supplies, Children prisoners, deliberate targeting of civilians (when you send a one ton bomb in the cage of the MOST densely populated strip of land in the world, y'know exactly the loss of innocent life); and apartheid are illegal.

So for the action of a few militants ALL of Gaza has to pay? 400, 500 what's the count now? I swear had this been ANY other place you would have been screaming international crimes.

“we adopt the system of aggressive defense; with every Arab attack we must respond with a decisive blow: the destruction of the place or the expulsion of the residents along with the seizure of the place.”
(Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 176-177 and Israel: A History, p. 156)

“houses were destroyed not in battle, but as punishment . . . and in order to CHASE AWAY the inhabitants . . . contrary to government policy.” (Righteous Victims, p. 328)

“The Arabs of the land of Israel [ Palestinians] have only one function left to them — to run away.”
(Benny Morris, p. 218)


We can spin this all day, but it's not leading anywhere.

I've got an idea: Maybe the Palestinians should GET OVER IT. It has been sixty years since they lost their country. Maybe they should, you know, consider asking their Muslim brethren in the dozen or so other nations in the Middle East to give up some of their land for a Palestinian homeland. Or maybe when they decide to grow up and drop the rocket attacks, suicide bombers and other extremist methods, the Palestinians can reach a compromise with Israel over a Palestinian state. But that hasn't happened yet, has it? No, Hamas has sponsored terrorism and activities which has led to the murder of Israeli civilians. The Palestinians are getting what they asked for.

The Palestinians had a right to protest considering the deplorable means by which Israel was first established, but the moment they began resorting to terrorism as a way to convey their displeasure with the Israeli occupation was the moment their movement lost all credibility.

[Kelly]

*sighs AMB. Mansour from the UN Palestinian Envoy, just gave the reason why this whole ordeal will never be solved.

Geraldo had him on his show, and he was asking him if he though Hamas was a terrorist group, and asking him if he would condemn what Hamas has/is doing....Geraldo even said, that both sides has blood on its hands, but does he condemn what Hamas is doing, and are they terrorists...

His answer was "no".....

Now mind you....that certainly may not be something the man can say..........but IF that is truly the thinking of the PA, then I don't know that I want the PA back in power....

[raybia]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3649878,00.html?1

[hippie_hunter]

I've got an idea: Maybe the Palestinians should GET OVER IT. It has been sixty years since they lost their country. Maybe they should, you know, consider asking their Muslim brethren in the dozen or so other nations in the Middle East to give up some of their land for a Palestinian homeland. Or maybe when they decide to grow up and drop the rocket attacks, suicide bombers and other extremist methods, the Palestinians can reach a compromise with Israel over a Palestinian state. But that hasn't happened yet, has it? No, Hamas has sponsored terrorism and activities which has led to the murder of Israeli civilians. The Palestinians are getting what they asked for.

The Palestinians had a right to protest considering the deplorable means by which Israel was first established, but the moment they began resorting to terrorism as a way to convey their displeasure with the Israeli occupation was the moment their movement lost all credibility.

They shouldn't get over it. Their Arab brethren ****ed them over by invading Israel therefore destroying the chances of an Arab state being created in 1948 and they're being ****ed over by Israel by occupying what is most certainly their territory.

There should be a Palestinian state that consists of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with Jerusalem as an independent city like Monaco, Vatican City, and Singapore.

However, as long as they are voting Hamas in power in a legitimate manner, they are not going to get an independent state, and they're bringing this fate upon themselves and as you say they are getting what they asked for.

[Kelly]

*sighs*

They do not want just Gaza, West Bank, or Jerusalem as an international city.....they want Israel off what they see as their land. They were there first, and they want it back...............that is the bottomline, and unless you get an EXTREMELY moderate regime in as government in the territory.....its not gonna happen.

[The Senator]

What Kel said...

[hippie_hunter]

*sighs*

They do not want just Gaza, West Bank, or Jerusalem as an international city.....they want Israel off what they see as their land. They were there first, and they want it back...............that is the bottomline, and unless you get an EXTREMELY moderate regime in as government in the territory.....its not gonna happen.

That depends on the group. There are several groups within the Palestinian Legislative Council that support a two-state solution (though the status of East Jerusalem is up for debate) and the Palestinian President supports a two-state solution.

The real problem is that Hamas is in the government with the majority of seats and are the only significant group within the Palestinian legislature that wants to destroy Israel.

[Marx]

That depends on the group. There are several groups within the Palestinian Legislative Council that support a two-state solution (though the status of East Jerusalem is up for debate) and the Palestinian President supports a two-state solution.

The real problem is that Hamas is in the government with the majority of seats and are the only significant group within the Palestinian legislature that wants to destroy Israel.

The fact that Hamas has ANY seats is beyond disturbing.

[The Overlord]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3649878,00.html?1

The fact is no one likes someone who acts like a victim all the time, that breeds contempt not pity. If Palestinians have a victim complex I'm not going to respect them, Gandhi didn't act like a victim all the time, he did stuff.

I don't pity them, because I don't pity idiots, they are being stupid. Don't pity Israel, there's a lot of stupidity on their side too, but they are somewhat more rational then Palestinians, which isn't saying much, I have a fair contempt for both sides, but since Hamas is the more reactionary of the two sides, I will dislike them more.

If the Palestinians want their own state they have grow up, act like adults and use Gandhi tactics, then they will gain something more important then pity, respect, that's what they should aim for, not pity. That's what they need, because ever since they elected Hamas, they have lost any pity they had from the Western World.

[Hobgoblin]

They shouldn't get over it. Their Arab brethren ****ed them over by invading Israel therefore destroying the chances of an Arab state being created in 1948 and they're being ****ed over by Israel by occupying what is most certainly their territory.

There should be a Palestinian state that consists of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with Jerusalem as an independent city like Monaco, Vatican City, and Singapore.

However, as long as they are voting Hamas in power in a legitimate manner, they are not going to get an independent state, and they're bringing this fate upon themselves and as you say they are getting what they asked for.
*sighs*

They do not want just Gaza, West Bank, or Jerusalem as an international city.....they want Israel off what they see as their land. They were there first, and they want it back...............that is the bottomline, and unless you get an EXTREMELY moderate regime in as government in the territory.....its not gonna happen.


This all asks for compromise, which no one really wants. Sure, both sides claim they are willing to compromise but that never lasts for long. Yes, many Palestinians want Israel off the map. And yes, Israelis have extremist settlers in the West Bank. Both actions and desires are unacceptable. But no one will make any genuine concessions and thats why this entire conflict can only end in a larger regional war. :csad:
The fact that Hamas has ANY seats is beyond disturbing.

But not surprising. Hamas is the largest,best organised organization in the Palestinian territories. People would look at it as the best bet for leadership. And this is what they get.

[Marx]

The fact is no one likes someone who acts like a victim all the time, that breeds contempt not pity. If Palestinians have a victim complex I'm not going to respect them, Gandhi didn't act like a victim all the time, he did stuff.

I don't pity them, because I don't pity idiots, they are being stupid. Don't pity Israel, there's a lot of stupidity on their side too, but they are somewhat more rational then Palestinians, which isn't saying much, I have a fair contempt for both sides, but since Hamas is the more reactionary of the two sides, I will dislike them more.

If the Palestinians want their own state they have grow up, act like adults and use Gandhi tactics, then they will gain something more important then pity, respect, that's what they should aim for, not pity. That's what they need, because ever since they elected Hamas, they have lost any pity they had from the Western World.

Well said Overlord. http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/icon14.gif

[Pulp]

I find the whole situation very disappointing. It is clear that countries simply don't care anymore. Take the Russia / Georgia business for example... other countries got upset about it but nothing happened.

Maybe one day when my son is a Grandfather, there will be a nation state that would fall outside all the other countries, in the same way that D.C. is technically apart from the US of A, and this nation state would get involved with countries blowing the crap out of each other, and say, NO THIS MUST STOP RIGHT NOW, and actually have the power to stop it dead.

Unfortunately, the planet is brewing for another big war soon and Israel and Gaza will be the least of our worries. Assume the Hamas drop a tactical nuke on Tel Aviv, what then? What is the measured response? A nuke on the Gaza Strip followed by every Arab nation dropping megatonnage on Israel?

I figure the ground invasion is because the IDF will have a greater precision at targeting non-civilian targets.

Would Israel, or rather the world accept "Palestine" cobbled together from bits of former British Palestine if the Hamas were not in power?

[Marx]

But not surprising. Hamas is the largest,best organised organization in the Palestinian territories. People would look at it as the best bet for leadership. And this is what they get.

The Palestinian Territories will never have any respect, or hope, under the leadership of Hamas.

[raybia]

I've got an idea: Maybe the Palestinians should GET OVER IT. It has been sixty years since they lost their country. Maybe they should, you know, consider asking their Muslim brethren in the dozen or so other nations in the Middle East to give up some of their land for a Palestinian homeland. Or maybe when they decide to grow up and drop the rocket attacks, suicide bombers and other extremist methods, the Palestinians can reach a compromise with Israel over a Palestinian state. But that hasn't happened yet, has it? No, Hamas has sponsored terrorism and activities which has led to the murder of Israeli civilians. The Palestinians are getting what they asked for.

The Palestinians had a right to protest considering the deplorable means by which Israel was first established, but the moment they began resorting to terrorism as a way to convey their displeasure with the Israeli occupation was the moment their movement lost all credibility.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html?q=mapstellstory.html

[Hobgoblin]

I find the whole situation very disappointing. It is clear that countries simply don't care anymore. Take the Russia / Georgia business for example... other countries got upset about it but nothing happened.

Maybe one day when my son is a Grandfather, there will be a nation state that would fall outside all the other countries, in the same way that D.C. is technically apart from the US of A, and this nation state would get involved with countries blowing the crap out of each other, and say, NO THIS MUST STOP RIGHT NOW, and actually have the power to stop it dead.

Unfortunately, the planet is brewing for another big war soon and Israel and Gaza will be the least of our worries. Assume the Hamas drop a tactical nuke on Tel Aviv, what then? What is the measured response? A nuke on the Gaza Strip followed by every Arab nation dropping megatonnage on Israel?

I figure the ground invasion is because the IDF will have a greater precision at targeting non-civilian targets.

Would Israel, or rather the world accept "Palestine" cobbled together from bits of former British Palestine if the Hamas were not in power?
Many countries in the world (Russia, Iran, India, Pakistan, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Syria etc) dont care for Israel and couldnt care less if Hamas controls a Palestinian nation. Israel certainly wouldnt tolerate it, that wouldn't make sense.

I'm not sure of the official Israeli position on a Palestinian state,but naturally the government would have to be agreeable to the Israelis. Good luck finding a strong, competent and peaceful organization that could do that.

[Hobgoblin]

The Palestinian Territories will never have any respect, or hope, under the leadership of Hamas.

Average Palestinians need to stand up and form a competent organization to form a legitimate government. Hamas wont allow it, so we're back to square one.

[Marx]

Average Palestinians need to stand up and form a competent organization to form a legitimate government. Hamas wont allow it, so we're back to square one.

I'm really curious to see what comes out of this current conflict.

[Hobgoblin]

My money is on nuthin.

[Marx]

My money is on nuthin.

I doubt anything substantial as well but you never know.

Are any Palestinian elections coming up?

[Hobgoblin]

I doubt anything substantial as well but you never know.

Are any Palestinian elections coming up?

Not for certain, but its a strong possibility.

Abbas: Elections in 2009 if No PLO/Hamas Accord

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/11/23/africa/OUKWD-UK-PALESTINIANS-ABBAS.php

[Marx]

Not for certain, but its a strong possibility.

Abbas: Elections in 2009 if No PLO/Hamas Accord

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/11/23/africa/OUKWD-UK-PALESTINIANS-ABBAS.php

Well that's certainly interesting.

[Hobgoblin]

I wonder what good an election would do since Hamas refuses to participate every time the idea is mentioned. They cant even agree on when Abbas's term expires.

[hippie_hunter]

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html?q=mapstellstory.html

That site is horribly one sided and doesn't say at all what really happened. The maps do not tell the story at all.

The reason why there is no Arab state in the former Mandate of Palestine is because the Israel declared independence according to the UN resolution that created a Jewish and Arab state. Jerusalem was meant to be an independent city even though it was fully in Arab territory. The day Israel declared independence it was invaded by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. Israel was victorious and the result of the war had Israel expand it's territory to the 1967 borders with Egypt taking the Gaza Strip and Jordan taking the West Bank.

They were then invaded again in 1967 by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq and once again, Israel was victorious with Israel taking over the Sinai Peninsula and Gaza Strip from Egypt, the Golan Heights from Syria, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan. Israel annexed East Jerusalem in the process.

The territories Israel took were the result of Arab aggression against them. If they weren't invaded from the day they existed, there would be an Arab Palestinian state.

The idiot who created that web page also forgot that Israel withdrew from the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt in return for peace. They are willing to do the same with the Golan Heights to Syria for the same. Until recently there were peace talks between the Israeli and Syria governments over the issue.

The website is also out of date with Ariel Sharon no longer being the Prime Minister because he is in a coma and a persistent (permanent would be a more accurate term) vegetative state. The maps are also out of date because 4 settlements in the West Bank are now dismantled, and all settlements in the Gaza Strip are dismantled with the Palestinians in full control.

Whoever says that maps tell the story to prove that Israel is an aggressor is an idiot. History is what tells the story and whoever made that page clearly doesn't know any of it apparently.

[hippie_hunter]

I'm not sure of the official Israeli position on a Palestinian state,but naturally the government would have to be agreeable to the Israelis. Good luck finding a strong, competent and peaceful organization that could do that.

The Israeli government supports a Palestinian state with all of the Gaza Strip and about 90% of the West Bank. Jerusalem would remain united and as Israel's capital and the largest Jewish settlements would be annexed into Israel.

[The Senator]

The fact that Hamas has ANY seats is beyond disturbing.

I understand why the Palestinians have elected such radicals as the voice of their movement. Many of them still hold a grudge over what happened in the 1940s. And honestly, their anger is merited. However, when that anger is translated into terroristic actions, the movement is no longer justified. It is not justified to kill innocent civilians, many of whom are not responsible for what occurred decades ago, many of whom had no say in the matter.

The Palestinians need to learn that whenever they resort to violence to make a point, it isn't going to work. Every time Hamas or other terrorist entities has attacked or plotted against Israel, their efforts have been met with intense (and justified) military retaliation from the Israelis. The Palestinians will only succeed if they approach this situation with peace. If they do not do this, then they will be no closer to achieving a Palestinian state than they were fifty years ago.

[Hobgoblin]

I understand why the Palestinians have elected such radicals as the voice of their movement. Many of them still hold a grudge over what happened in the 1940s. And honestly, their anger is merited. However, when that anger is translated into terroristic actions, the movement is no longer justified. It is not justified to kill innocent civilians, many of whom are not responsible for what occurred decades ago, many of whom had no say in the matter.

The Palestinians need to learn that whenever they resort to violence to make a point, it isn't going to work. Every time Hamas or other terrorist entities has attacked or plotted against Israel, their efforts have been met with intense (and justified) military retaliation from the Israelis. The Palestinians will only succeed if they approach this situation with peace. If they do not do this, then they will be no closer to achieving a Palestinian state than they were fifty years ago.

Agreed. But how do we make it happen?

[Marx]

Agreed. But how do we make it happen?

When religion is at the core, I have a difficult time seeing any path to peace.

[The Senator]

Agreed. But how do we make it happen?

We can't do anything. The Palestinians need to have this epiphany themselves... and frankly, I don't really know if they will be able to put their anger and frustrations behind them in the name of peace any time soon...

[Superman4ever]

Yeah and there's a bunch of human rights regarding Hamas, the PLO and bunch of other groups in the Palestinian area, this is not black and white situation, its mostly gray.

However, you can argue which side is more moral, but here's one thing that isn't very debatable, Israel is far rational then Hamas (though there is a far amount stupidity on Israel's side, but still they aren't totally bonkers like Hamas). Israel's objectives are far more realistic, then Hamas' and Israel tends to rely way less on God to get things done then Hamzs does. Hamas has turned Gaza into a giant death cult, Israel has never done anything that nuts.

I always prefer rational to irrational ones, rational players may act immoral sometimes, but you know where they stand, irrational, you never know where they stand, because their logic and methods make sense.

Plus it seems like you believe in the Bush version of democracy, that its only about elections. That's not case, a democracy also needs a civil society, rule of law and certain human rights standards, so Hamas may be elected, but that hardly makes them Democratic.

Oh, I agree that the situation is gray. Very much so. Hamas has not only conducted suicide bombing campaigns in Israel, but also Iraq...when it couldn't get into Israel. So I have no love for them at all, my concern is this response, and the civilian loss.

The idea that 200 rockets being fired is horrendous to me, but like you said it's not black and white. I'm just tired of hell about this whole situation.

I believe in anything Bush is laughable, though. If you knew my stance you know how crazy that sounds. No, Bush "won" the election here but he didn't do it democratically.

[The Senator]

When religion is at the core, I have a difficult time seeing any path to peace.

I agree with this, but you're also leaving out ethnicity. Israel was created by white, affluent Christian governments which were unwilling to sacrifice their own land in order to create an independent Jewish state, so they carved out land in an area occupied by "inferior" brown-skinned Muslims which lacked development and the means for retaliation. Now Israel is occupied primarily by white Jews supported by white Christian governments, with the most powerful white Christian government (the United States) serving as Israel's financial and military guide.

I support Israel, but it isn't difficult to notice that race and religion both play a huge part in this conflict.




*note that the "inferior brown skinned Muslims" comment is meant to be sardonic.

[Marx]

Oh, I agree that the situation is gray. Very much so. Hamas has not only conducted suicide bombing campaigns in Israel, but also Iraq...when it couldn't get into Israel. So I have no love for them at all, my concern is this response, and the civilian loss.

The idea that 200 rockets being fired is horrendous to me, but like you said it's not black and white. I'm just tired of hell about this whole situation.

I believe in anything Bush is laughable, though. If you knew my stance you know how crazy that sounds. No, Bush "won" the election here but he didn't do it democratically.

Civilian casualties are an unfortunate occurence in every large military action.

[Hobgoblin]

I agree with this, but you're also leaving out ethnicity. Israel was created by white, affluent Christian governments which were unwilling to sacrifice their own land in order to create an independent Jewish state, so they carved out land in an area occupied by "inferior" brown-skinned Muslims which lacked development and the means for retaliation. Now Israel is occupied primarily by white Jews supported by white Christian governments, with the most powerful white Christian government (the United States) serving as Israel's financial and military guide.

I support Israel, but it isn't difficult to notice that race and religion both play a huge part in this conflict.




*note that the "inferior brown skinned Muslims" comment is meant to be sardonic.

All of this is true but I dont know if the Israelis would have been happy with a country anywhere but in the Middle East, thier ancestral homeland. Bavaria would seem like a poor consolation gift compared to Israel.

[The Senator]

The original point of Israel, though, was to create a place where the Jews could go without fearing religious or ethnic persecution. Religion never should have factored into the creation of the state... and honestly, I doubt the Jews would care enough to raise a fuss had the state been carved out of Poland or Alaska, as some early plans had proposed...

[Hobgoblin]

The original point of Israel, though, was to create a place where the Jews could go without fearing religious or ethnic persecution. Religion never should have factored into the creation of the state... and honestly, I doubt the Jews would care enough to raise a fuss had the state been carved out of Poland or Alaska, as some early plans had proposed...

Hm, you learn something every day. As for if they would have accepted it, well...kinda beside the point.

[Superman4ever]

I agree with this, but you're also leaving out ethnicity. Israel was created by white, affluent Christian governments which were unwilling to sacrifice their own land in order to create an independent Jewish state, so they carved out land in an area occupied by "inferior" brown-skinned Muslims which lacked development and the means for retaliation. Now Israel is occupied primarily by white Jews supported by white Christian governments, with the most powerful white Christian government (the United States) serving as Israel's financial and military guide.

I support Israel, but it isn't difficult to notice that race and religion both play a huge part in this conflict.




*note that the "inferior brown skinned Muslims" comment is meant to be sardonic.

I agree with ya Jman. However, I can't clearly state that I'm against one side or the other. As I find negativity on both sides, I also find huge positives.

Like for me, I'd kill to have the type of proportional representation Israel has throughout the whole mid-east...hell I'd kill to have that here in the states.

I'm just tired of the whole damn situation.

[bell110]

All of this is true but I dont know if the Israelis would have been happy with a country anywhere but in the Middle East, thier ancestral homeland. Bavaria would seem like a poor consolation gift compared to Israel.


No, they wouldn't have been happy. They believe Israel was given to them by god so it's rightly theirs by divine law.

[The Overlord]

No, they wouldn't have been happy. They believe Israel was given to them by god so it's rightly theirs by divine law.

That's a stupid attitude.

[Morg]

I'm really curious to see what comes out of this current conflict.

More deaths, more hatred, more conflicts and nothing resolved as things go on

[bell110]

That's a stupid attitude.

I know, but it's what they believe.

[kainedamo]

Israel sending in the ground troops is a grave mistake.

These air strikes and land invasion can only turn out, at the very best for the Israelis, short term benifits. In the long term, it will hurt Israel. The world's opinion will be lower than ever of Israel, and the deaths of civilians will only serve as an excellent recruiting tactic for Hamas.

The invasion was a dumb move. And it seems it was largely politically motivated which just makes it even sadder.

[kainedamo]

Yes... because assassinating terrorists is such a bad thing...

Great, so I have your approval for sniping Ehud Barak. Cheers.

[Marx]

More deaths, more hatred, more conflicts and nothing resolved as things go on

Thank you for that bit of positive thinking Morg! :oldrazz:

[kainedamo]

I take exception to your sig "Israel deserves peace" jmanspice, by the way.

Israel has rejected every call for ceasefire or restraint from the world leaders, even temporary ceasefire to allow aid into Gaza. For a nation to do what Israel is doing now is considered a war crime. Firstly, because they have not exhausted all diplomatic means. Can you honestly say they have, when they reject calls for a ceasefire? Secondly, their response is hugely disproportionate to the rocket attacks into Israel.

You are hugely naive if you believe Israel is not equally to blame for the current situation as Hamas, if not more so.

[kainedamo]

Also, the argument can be made that Israel is not a legitamite government, seeing as they kind of stole the land they currently occupy back in the 40's.

Hamas didn't wake up one day and decide to be "evil dooers". Israel is in large part responsible for the creation of Hamas and the increasing radicalization of Muslims in the Middle East.

[Ace of Knaves]

I think the best course of action is to launch a series of ICBMs and blow up the whole middle east. :up:

hahaha jokes! :D

[Marx]

I take exception to your sig "Israel deserves peace" jmanspice, by the way.

Israel has rejected every call for ceasefire or restraint from the world leaders, even temporary ceasefire to allow aid into Gaza. For a nation to do what Israel is doing now is considered a war crime. Firstly, because they have not exhausted all diplomatic means. Can you honestly say they have, when they reject calls for a ceasefire? Secondly, their response is hugely disproportionate to the rocket attacks into Israel.

You are hugely naive if you believe Israel is not equally to blame for the current situation as Hamas, if not more so.

With all due respect Kaine, if you actually took the time to read back through this thread, you would know that all of us have said that both share the blame in this situation. Both sides are responible for the current conflict going on.

On a side not, saying that Israel is MORE to blame than Hamas is absolutely ridiculous.

[kainedamo]

FUTHEREMORE!

Not only will these current attacks from Israel come back to bite them in the ass, America's continued support both in spirit and financial will also come back to bite America in the ass.

Giving Israel military aid isn't exactly winning the hearts and minds of the people of the Middle East.

[kainedamo]

With all due respect Kaine, if you actually took the time to read back through this thread, you would know that all of us have said that both share the blame in this situation. Both sides are responible for the current conflict going on.

And saying that Israel is MORE to blame than Hamas is absolutely ridiculous.

I appreciate that you personally believe both sides share blame, I also believe that.

But Israelis created the original situation back in the 40's. Taking that land was incredibly ill conceived, and it is because of that that we're still seeing the repocussions today.

When the hell are people gonna learn that you just can't go around and take what isn't yours without seeing some consequences? Whether its Palestinians, the Native Americans, the Cubans, the Irish.

This **** keeps happening and people don't learn from it.

[Shemtov]

Israel is doing the right thing.
in fact, they should of done this years ago.....but they knew people would come crashing down on them like this.
for the past 8 years Hamas has been sending rockets into Israel. 8 years! if, oh, lets say Mexico did this to the U.S. nobody (execpt mexicans) would have qualms about the U.s. Attacking Mexico. The Israelis have waited a long time to counter-strike.

the fact that Palaestinians are dying is Hamas's fault. They build their strongholds smack in the middle of the people, Next to schools. Any nation has a right to defend themselves against such attacks. thus, the causilties are on Hamas's hands, not Israel's.

Understand and know, that the best definaition of the needs of a modern goverment are defined in the U.s. declaration of independence:
to defend Life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness.


Life- Hamas is trying to kill Israelis. the Israeli goverment is trying to prevent that.
Liberty- what type of Liberty do you have if you live in fear?
Pursuit of hapiness- how can you pursue happiness if you cannot go out into the street without the fear of being stuck down were you stand?

Please My fellow humans, look not on WHAT Israel is doing, but WHY they are doing it:
That there is a time for war and a time for peace, and this is a time for war.

[kainedamo]

No, it really really isn't a time for war, not from either side. And Israel are just going to make things worse in the long run.

I mean, this rocket attack thing didn't happen out of nowhere. Palistinians have very legitamite reasons to be peeved at Israel. Like that giant ass wall Israel built around Palistinian land, and the thin strip of land they have, and the fact that they don't have their own state, their women and children sit in Israeli jails, their homes have been bulldozed... you name it. And in their anger they've turned to Hamas.

And Israel simply fuels that anger by what they're doing now.

I'm a guy that believes there are times where violence or war is acceptable. But these moments have to be chosen very carefully.

The one situation where there ought to be some war is on Mugabe's turf, Zimbabwe. That guy needs to be overthrown quick style. But no nation seems interested, and the people of that nation are too damned impoverished to do it themselves.

[kainedamo]

And another thing!

People keep saying "shucks, maybe Hamas shouldn't be so close to civilians lol". Do people that say this realize that Gaza is one of the most densely populated strips of land in the world? The place is tiny!

[Marx]

No, it really really isn't a time for war, not from either side. And Israel are just going to make things worse in the long run.

I mean, this rocket attack thing didn't happen out of nowhere. Palistinians have very legitamite reasons to be peeved at Israel. Like that giant ass wall Israel built around Palistinian land, and the thin strip of land they have, and the fact that they don't have their own state, their women and children sit in Israeli jails, their homes have been bulldozed... you name it. And in their anger they've turned to Hamas.

And Israel simply fuels that anger by what they're doing now.

Hamas is a terrorist organization and an illegitimate government. As has been said earlier in this thread - Gaza lost alot of sympathy by electing Hamas.

[Shemtov]

And another thing!

People keep saying "shucks, maybe Hamas shouldn't be so close to civilians lol". Do people that say this realize that Gaza is one of the most densely populated strips of land in the world? The place is tiny!

But....but.....they build missle silos in inner cities....not in feilds ....and there are feilds in Gaza.....such as the feilds that The Palastinians Claim Israel destoyed in 04.


Like that giant ass wall Israel built around Palistinian land,

.
because they kept entering israel to bomb it.


And in their anger they've turned to Hamas.



But there anger is misderected. it really should be against the PA who just care about themeselves.........while hamas does what they think is best for the people.....unfourtanatly that includes the bombin of innocent Isreali civilians. its like Nazi Germany.......The old goverment destroyed you....blame the Jews.

[StorminNorman]

FUTHEREMORE!

Not only will these current attacks from Israel come back to bite them in the ass, America's continued support both in spirit and financial will also come back to bite America in the ass.

Giving Israel military aid isn't exactly winning the hearts and minds of the people of the Middle East.


So we should abandoned are one true ally in the Middle East simply because of Middle Eastern public opinion? Brilliant.

[Marx]

US JOINS PRESS FOR TRUCE AS GAZA ONSLAUGHT CONTINUES
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090105/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Israel seized control of high-rise buildings and attacked houses, mosques and smuggling tunnels as it pressed its offensive against the Gaza Strip's Hamas rulers on Monday, while the U.S. joined a stream of countries pushing for a cease-fire.

At least 14 Palestinian children were killed on Monday, raising the known Palestinian death toll from the 10-day onslaught to 540 — including 200 civilians, the U.N. and Palestinian officials said. Gaza's biggest hospital said it was overwhelmed.

Five Israelis have died since the operation began.

From Gaza, Hamas continued to pummel southern Israel with more than two dozen rockets on Monday, including one that struck an empty kindergarten in the city of Ashdod, and promised to wait for Israeli soldiers "in every street and every alleyway."

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said the offensive would go on until Israel achieved "peace and tranquility" for residents of southern Israel.

[The Senator]

Also, the argument can be made that Israel is not a legitamite government, seeing as they kind of stole the land they currently occupy back in the 40's.

Hamas didn't wake up one day and decide to be "evil dooers". Israel is in large part responsible for the creation of Hamas and the increasing radicalization of Muslims in the Middle East.

Every time you post here, your ignorance never ceases to amaze me. The Israelis didn't steal the land where Israel is. The international community did. And today's generation of Israeli civilians cannot be tied to the creation of Israel. So yes, the Israelis are innocent.

Moreover, Israel is a legitimate country considering it is recognized by the international community. Last time I checked, I couldn't book a flight to Palestine because Palestine does not exist. Palestine doesn't exist, therefore Hamas is not a legitimate government.