The Israel Situation

[Kelly]

Damn, do you have to yell Gamma....?

[Gamma Ray]

Like Thomas Jefferson in your signature, I am passionate.

[Dr. Evil]

You know what? I'm annoyed enough to actually go to the trouble of posting a real response post. The following list begins with the Chevron Massacree when 67 Jews were murdered. Before the "occupation". This list is goes up to 2008, but I've included links to more at the end: http://www.lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm


Here are some pictures. Fortunately, Israelis don't generally photograph their murdered for propaganda purposes:


http://www.mererhetoric.com/images/terrorismbusbombed112507.jpg

http://www.september11news.com/April12_SuicideBombingJerMrkt.jpg

Hamas uses human shields:
http://blog.camera.org/archives/HumanShields.jpg



More links:

Complete list of terrorist attacks on Israelis: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael.html

Which came first? Terrorism of occupation?:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-%20Obstacle%20to%20Peace/Palestinian%20terror%20before%202000/Which%20Came%20First-%20Terrorism%20or%20Occupation%20-%20Major



I wanted to actually post all of the text from that first link, but the forums wouldn't let me due to sheer quantity. I then plugged in all of the information from my original post and it was a SIXTY FOUR PAGE document in Microsoft Word.


And since you're fond of quotes:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism." -- PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein, 1977

0RTc32qBpAk

[Midnyte_Sun]

Lie, steal, cheat, murder, terrorize, oppress? Does the internet have enough memory for me to post every story about the wrongdoings of the Palestinians and Hamas?

Actually you'd be surprised what is omitted from the internet. That post only took me 2 minutes to make. I have given you reasonable first hand accounts from books, but since you can't verify those and would rather call them 'tales' I figured this is the only argument you can understand.

Fact is that Israel was created legally, has every right to exist and protect itself and will not be going away any time soon, as much as you'd like it.

I don't want it to go away, I don't even care if they take all of it, so long as it is a pluralistic society where Palestinians and Jews both have equal opportunity to buy and own land and prosper. Since that is almost unreachable, I want them to at least respect international law; allow the Palestinians to create a viable homeland, drop the ridiculous notion that they never existed; the illegal settlement construction; the racism; xenophobia, and unaccounted murder with our tax dollars.


No country is innocent of wrongdoing, and Israel is in the unique position of having to make hard decisions every day to protect its people.

Hard decisions? It's well known it is Israel's policy to shoot first and ask questions (when forced by the international community or when caught in the act) later.

The truth is that the nation is prospering unlike anyone thought and the push to delegitimize it is stronger than ever.

You call being in a virtual fortified bunker sponsored by US tax dollars and surrounded by hostile nations that want to kick its inhabitants back to Europe and Asia...prosperous? History will tell you that unnatural colonies (like this Zionist one) don't last long. Unless they kill all the Arabs like the early Americans and Spaniards did with the Native Americans, Israel will never get what it wants.

Money doesn't last forever. The most reasonable way for Israel to have true prosperity is to come back to the 1967 borders that all the neighbors already agree on, stop and eventually remove all illegal settlements, and share Jerusalem.

If they want to continue their land grabs in Jerusalem and the their continued incorporation of illegal settlements, they are going to dig themselves into a hole they won't be able to get out of.

Or why not visit some time and learn a thing or two?

I was hoping to visit Israel last year but my schedule didn't permit me.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israel, Palestinians to resume DIRECT peace talks Sept. 2

"As we move forward, it is important that actions by all sides help to advance our effort, not hinder it," Clinton said. "There have been difficulties in the past; there will be difficulties ahead. Without a doubt, we will hit more obstacles. The enemies of peace will keep trying to defeat us and to derail these talks. But I ask the parties to persevere."


-

For those who are not that familiar with how direct peace talks pan out, September 2 will be a great starting point to see how these deals work.

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_us_mideast

[Midnyte_Sun]

FAQ about the Peace Talks

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11038890

[Hobodeluxe]

hey Gamma Ray. those images are against the rules here.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Saeb Erakat: No Talks if Settlement Freeze Ends

The Palestinian Authority has warned that it will pull out of peace talks if Israel renews the construction of settlements in the occupied West Bank.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11063637

--

(Settlement constructions have been continuing anyways as the freeze was only implemented partially to begin with).

[Gamma Ray]

The deafening silence after my "super-post" speaks volumes.



Here's a good related article:


Don’t blame Israel for Arab failures
By SALIM MANSUR, QMI AGENCY

TEL AVIV — Size matters, and in geopolitics it can be critically important.

A grasp of this elementary fact could provide a better understanding for, and empathy with, a small country besieged by hostile powers on its borders.

Yet this fact often escapes people living in countries of continental dimensions with large spaces empty of inhabitants — as in Canada, the U.S., Russia, Australia and the E.U. — and they may, ironically at times, display a chauvinism reflecting the size of their country.

The fact of how small Israel is territorially, and how this fact deepens its sense of vulnerability, weighs down upon anyone who visits the country.

As I write sitting at a cafe on Tel Aviv’s waterfront, I remember how this city and Haifa to the north were targets of Saddam Hussein’s Iraqi Scud missiles during the 1991 Gulf War.

Israel is merely a dot relative to the Arab world, and yet made responsible, in the logic of the anti-Zionist bigots, for the problems of the Middle East and the inability of the Arab-Muslim culture to deal with the challenges of the modern world.

Consider the following: The Arab world, excluding Iran and Turkey, is comprised of 22 countries stretching from the Gulf to the Atlantic Ocean with a total area around 13 million sq. km and a population of nearly 350 million.

In terms of territorial size, only Russia is larger than the Arab world at 17 million sq. km.

Israel is barely 22,000 sq. km, or about three times the size of New York City, with a population of 7.5 million of which 20% are Israeli Arabs.

An objective consideration of the huge disparity in size and population between the Arab world and Israel should dispel the drivel the world has been fed that Arabs are the “underdog” in a colonial struggle against Jews as a colonizing people.

The reverse disparity between Israelis and Arabs is the tremendous human achievement of the former as free people, and the contrast when measured against the sullen reality of the Arab world just about at the bottom of the UN human development index despite the resources available.

But here, too, Arabs, Muslims and their apologists in the West will fault Israelis for the collective failure of the Arab world.

It is as if the plight of Palestinian “occupation” by Israelis explains the Sudanese civil wars and genocide in Darfur, or the savage killings inside Algeria, or the long list of atrocities, gender oppression, humiliation of religious minorities, wars, military dictatorships, and with no end in sight of violence and murder in the name of Islam across the Arab world.

It is sheer absurdity to hold Israelis responsible for the utterly dysfunctional nature of the Arab world.

Palestinians are an integral part of this dysfunctional world, and their politics reflect, in a heightened sense, the problems the rest of the world seeks to avoid discussing for fear of being denounced as politically incorrect.

Israel is a very small country packed with immensely talented people.

Their story is a gift to the Arab-Muslim world as it is to be found in the Qur’an if only Arabs and Muslims understood either.

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/salim_mansur/2010/08/20/15091106.html

[Gamma Ray]

Double Post

[Kelly]

Maybe some didn't think your post was so super.....or something.

[Midnyte_Sun]

The deafening silence after my "super-post" speaks volumes.
Here's a good related article:

This is not saying anything mind-bending or shocking.

[Gamma Ray]

Maybe some didn't think your post was so super.....or something.

Super in size, saddening in content.

[Schlosser85]

All you did was take up half the page posting a bunch of stuff that isn't news to anyone. What comment were you looking for?

"wow, my eyes are awakened to the fact that there is violence in Israel..."

[Hobodeluxe]

Rabbi Yosef has a final solution for Israel's Palestinian problem. (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-rabbi-s-offensive-remarks-harm-peace-efforts-1.310930)

[redhawk23]

Rabbi Yosef has a final solution for Israel's Palestinian problem. (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-rabbi-s-offensive-remarks-harm-peace-efforts-1.310930)

horrible, even more horrible in context of who said it.


He says that the Palisinians should all "perish from the earth."

horrible

[Schlosser85]

The 89-year-old is a respected religious scholar but is also known for vitriolic comments about Arabs, secular Jews, liberals, women and gays, among others.

wow. what a man of God :whatever:

What's the difference between him and the Ayatollah?

[Hobodeluxe]

wow. what a man of God :whatever:

What's the difference between him and the Ayatollah?


Not enough obviously.

but if you read the Bible God told the Jews to kill the infidels several times for not believing. Even Jesus was said to tell his followers to slay those who would not worship him.

the book is so full of contradictions. :(

[Compi716]

Rabbi Yosef has a final solution for Israel's Palestinian problem. (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-rabbi-s-offensive-remarks-harm-peace-efforts-1.310930)
Because no Arab leader has ever said anything similar about Israel or the Jews :whatever:.

And regarding your comment on stories within the Bible regarding the killing of infidels (wrong word, and wrong book), I'd suggest reading a bit more about them. The only nation that was commanded to be eliminated was one known as Amalek, because they are essentially the Jews mortal enemy, going so far as to arranging an unprovoked attack on the Jews camp when they were traveling through the desert. Any other instance of God commanding killing in the Old Testament is due to the promise of the land, and ridding said land of its inhabitants. Yeah, it's pretty barbaric, but that's just how things happened 4-3000 years ago.

But hey, let's all start judging things we have no control over! Let's all sit on the sidelines faaaar away from where anything real is happening and say what's right and what's wrong!

[Schlosser85]

Because no Arab leader has ever said anything similar about Israel or the Jews

:whatever:

Of course they have. They say things like that all the time.

That doesn't make it "ok" for a prominent Israeli rabbi to say the same thing about Palestinians.

How hard is this to understand?

Two bigoted genocidal statements don't make a right.

[Gamma Ray]

To be fair, he singled out all of the evil people and he said that Gd should strike them (as opposed to martyrs).

"All these evil people should perish from this world ... Gd should strike them with a plague, them and these Palestinians,"


Obviously his words are more harmful than helpful, though and he's certainly not the first Israeli or rabbi to echo that sentiment. There is a lot of bad blood between these people and it's not going away because of any political peace agreement.

[Hobodeluxe]

Because no Arab leader has ever said anything similar about Israel or the Jews :whatever:.

And regarding your comment on stories within the Bible regarding the killing of infidels (wrong word, and wrong book), I'd suggest reading a bit more about them. The only nation that was commanded to be eliminated was one known as Amalek, because they are essentially the Jews mortal enemy, going so far as to arranging an unprovoked attack on the Jews camp when they were traveling through the desert. Any other instance of God commanding killing in the Old Testament is due to the promise of the land, and ridding said land of its inhabitants. Yeah, it's pretty barbaric, but that's just how things happened 4-3000 years ago.

But hey, let's all start judging things we have no control over! Let's all sit on the sidelines faaaar away from where anything real is happening and say what's right and what's wrong!

you do it all the time why can't we?

and yes infidel is the same as heathen or non believer and it was punishable by death. just as Allah , Yaweh or Jehovah is the same God.

and yeah the Bible says that God told the Hebrews that it was okay to kill people and take their stuff because He gave it to them.

So if that's all the okay you need and the Palestinians are on your land is it not okay to kill them for the land that God told you was yours?

God doesn't change in a short 3-4000 years does he?
His rules still apply right?
If a Jew kills a Palestinian because he's on the ground that God promised him it's not a sin right?

And if Allah tells a Muslim to kill the Jews who are on the land He promised them then it's not a sin either right?

Both sides are the same in this respect. They both think they have divine providence.

[Gamma Ray]

Except there is no Islamic tie to the land of Israel. In fact, the Koran recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the last judgment, Jews will return to dwell there.

[Gamma Ray]

"The truth about the occupation and settlements"
http://israelseen.com/2010/08/30/the-truth-about-%E2%80%9Cthe-occupation%E2%80%9D-and-%E2%80%9Cthe-settlements%E2%80%9D/

[hippie_hunter]

Except there is no Islamic tie to the land of Israel. In fact, the Koran recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the last judgment, Jews will return to dwell there.
You mean asides from the Dome of the Rock and Jerusalem being the third holiest city in Islam :o

[Schlosser85]

Shouldn't we be spending our time discussing something actually relevant to here and now instead of which side a 3,000 year old book says about who has the right to live there?

Arabs who have lived there for generations don't have to up and leave just because the Bible says their land belongs to the Jews.

[Gamma Ray]

You mean asides from the Dome of the Rock and Jerusalem being the third holiest city in Islam :o

Dome of the Rock is the holiest site in Judaism. Jews win!

But seriously, check out some of the stuff the koran says about Israel: http://middleeastfacts.com/koran.php

The Dome of the Rock, like many other Islamic concepts, is only holy because it is holy to the Jews.

[Super Kal]

it's going to be interesting to see what is going to happen within the next month...

[Heretic]

Nothing is going to happen in the next month. Both sides will put on their "peace" face, and then after Obama soaks up the praise for being so awesome, things will go back to the way they were.

[Hobodeluxe]

Nothing is going to happen in the next month. Both sides will put on their "peace" face, and then after Obama soaks up the praise for being so awesome, things will go back to the way they were.


I dunno. I believe Israel will attack Iran. And we will sit idly by and allow it to happen. Then we will be drawn into the conflict when Iran retaliates.


p.s. I see you added Defendor to your fav movie list. great movie eh?

[Dr. Evil]

Nothing is going to happen in the next month. Both sides will put on their "peace" face, and then after Obama soaks up the praise for being so awesome, things will go back to the way they were.

This. If it's one thing we are good at, it's doing nothing.

[Hobodeluxe]

This. If it's one thing we are good at, it's doing nothing the wrong thing.


ftfy

[Gamma Ray]

I dunno. I believe Israel will attack Iran. And we will sit idly by and allow it to happen.


Yeah as if that would be such a terrible thing.



Word coming in today that there was a terrorist attack today outside of Chevron. Early reports indicate that there are numerous injuries and fatalities.

Article: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=186608

This is what happens when peace is in the news. One of them was pregnant, reportedly. Tragic.

[Hobodeluxe]

Yeah as if that would be such a terrible thing.



Word coming in today that there was a terrorist attack today outside of Chevron. Early reports indicate that there are numerous injuries and fatalities.

Article: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=186608

This is what happens when peace is in the news. One of them was pregnant, reportedly. Tragic.

All I can say is that's what happens when you steal people's land. give it back and then maybe you could negotiate.

and yeah it would be a tragic thing to get dragged into another war on Israel's behalf.

Why don't you go and sign up to join in the fight if you really believe in the cause?

[Gamma Ray]

Wow, for a guy so interested in the general well being of people, your response to my post was quite disgusting.


Wish there was a block feature.

[Compi716]

Wow, for a guy so interested in the general well being of people, your response to my post was quite disgusting.


Wish there was a block feature.
Just ignore it. I've yet to see a poster subscribe to as ridiculous double standards as he.

[hippie_hunter]

I dunno. I believe Israel will attack Iran. And we will sit idly by and allow it to happen. Then we will be drawn into the conflict when Iran retaliates.


p.s. I see you added Defendor to your fav movie list. great movie eh?
I don't think that Israel will attack Iran unprovoked. Iran is a much bigger country than Lebanon and it will be condemned universally that even the United States will join in. They know that they can't have their biggest military supplier get pissed off to the point where they'll cut off much needed military hardware.

And Iran isn't like Lebanon or most other countries in the Middle East, it can, and it will retaliate harshly in the event of preemptive Israeli military attack.

[Super Kal]

Nothing is going to happen in the next month. Both sides will put on their "peace" face, and then after Obama soaks up the praise for being so awesome, things will go back to the way they were.
heretic, i dont buy into the perspective of uniformitarianism... and i think you know that about me. I'm curious to see what this peace talk will lead to, because when it comes to them saying "peace and safety" and peace agreements in the middle east, thats a big deal... that opens my eyes and makes me pay attention.

if a peace treaty does come from it, it'll be interesting to see the events that unfold afterward

[Hobodeluxe]

Just ignore it. I've yet to see a poster subscribe to as ridiculous double standards as he.

double standard?

in what respect? that I care as much for the people of Palestine as I do Israel? If they were moving into a near defenseless Israel with their tanks and jets and helicopters and telling the Jews what they were allowed to do and have then I'd be on their case.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israeli academics boycott West Bank settlements

More than 150 Israeli academics say they will no longer lecture or work in Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

Sources:

BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11141774

The Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israeli-actors-refuse-to-take-the-stage-in-settlement-theatre-2065489.html

[Gamma Ray]

Another cowardly Hamas terrorist attack today: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=186756

Also yesterday, treats were handed out by Palestinians in celebration of the murder of 5 innocents. Isn't that nice?


http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8236/w9kwuzfcd1z9.jpg

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5212/qq2q.jpg

[Hobodeluxe]

Another cowardly Hamas terrorist attack today: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=186756

Also yesterday, treats were handed out by Palestinians in celebration of the murder of 5 innocents. Isn't that nice?


http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8236/w9kwuzfcd1z9.jpg

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5212/qq2q.jpg


What proof do you have to back up your assertion? let me guess. An Israeli anti-Muslim website told you so right?

[Gamma Ray]

I sent you the link since there are disturbing images on the site.

Is it really so unbelievable? These are the same people that danced in the street on September 11th.

[Fenrir]

Another cowardly Hamas terrorist attack today: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=186756

Also yesterday, treats were handed out by Palestinians in celebration of the murder of 5 innocents. Isn't that nice?


http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8236/w9kwuzfcd1z9.jpg

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5212/qq2q.jpg

Nice piece of false propaganda. Throws whatever credibility you (and your sources) have right out the window. :rolleyes:

Those images are the property of the Palestinian Information Center (as the logo on the images clearly shows). So why don't you post the link to the main source of those pictures instead of hosting them on imageshack, so that everyone here can see for themselves that those pictures are not about celebrating the murders of Israelis, but rather of food distributed on the streets for Muslims breaking their obligatory fasts at sunset in the currently ongoing month of Ramdan.

[Gamma Ray]

Not quite, buddy. Check your inbox for the link. The photos were captioned (translated from Arabic): "Photos / citizens handing out candy joy heroic process of Hebron". It looks like some kind of photo sharing forum and all of the responses (translated from Arabic) basically say the same thing, namely "may it happen again and again by the grace of Allah".

[Fenrir]

Not quite, buddy. Check your inbox for the link. The photos were captioned (translated from Arabic): "Photos / citizens handing out candy joy heroic process of Hebron". It looks like some kind of photo sharing forum and all of the responses (translated from Arabic) basically say the same thing, namely "may it happen again and again by the grace of Allah".

Again, the link you sent me is not from the main source, which is the Palestinian Information Center. The site you sent me looks like a hotbed of radicals looking to stir up trouble rather than a proper official channel. Since those pictures are watermarked, they must have been originally hosted by the PIC or its affiliates on their websites, and that's the link I want.

[Hobodeluxe]

Again, the link you sent me is not from the main source, which is the Palestinian Information Center. The site you sent me looks like a hotbed of radicals looking to stir up trouble rather than a proper official channel. Since those pictures are watermarked, they must have been originally hosted by the PIC or its affiliates on their websites, and that's the link I want.

Exactly I knew what it was but wanted him to hang himself on the lie.

[Hobodeluxe]

Not quite, buddy. Check your inbox for the link. The photos were captioned (translated from Arabic): "Photos / citizens handing out candy joy heroic process of Hebron". It looks like some kind of photo sharing forum and all of the responses (translated from Arabic) basically say the same thing, namely "may it happen again and again by the grace of Allah".

or it's a fake posted by a bunch of haters like you to use for propaganda purposes.

[alteregos]

Shouldn't we be spending our time discussing something actually relevant to here and now instead of which side a 3,000 year old book says about who has the right to live there?

Arabs who have lived there for generations don't have to up and leave just because the Bible says their land belongs to the Jews.

The core of the conflict lies in that most of the men fighting in the Israeli Army are the children of those who migrated there from Europe during the U.S. and Great Britain's establishment of the new state of Israel. They have no nostalgic ties to a home in Europe, because they were born in Israel. In their eyes, that is their home. It would be suicidal to stand by and allow Palestinian militant groups walk all over their people. It's also suicidal to stand by while a regional power (Iran) attempts to develop nuclear capabilities, while openly practicing war games. Israel is doing what it has to, and the Obama administration is distancing itself from our only major ally in the Middle East.

If Israel feels threatened by a nuclear Iran, I have no doubts that they will strike preemptively. Until then, though, both sides will bide their time wrestling the bureaucracy of the UN with continuous multilateral sanctions.

[hippie_hunter]

Dome of the Rock is the holiest site in Judaism. Jews win!

But seriously, check out some of the stuff the koran says about Israel: http://middleeastfacts.com/koran.php

The Dome of the Rock, like many other Islamic concepts, is only holy because it is holy to the Jews.
The Dome of the Rock is holy because that's supposedly the spot where Mohammad ascended to Heaven and founded the Islamic religion on that very spot.

[Hobodeluxe]

The core of the conflict lies in that most of the men fighting in the Israeli Army are the children of those who migrated there from Europe during the U.S. and Great Britain's establishment of the new state of Israel. They have no nostalgic ties to a home in Europe, because they were born in Israel. In their eyes, that is their home. It would be suicidal to stand by and allow Palestinian militant groups walk all over their people. It's also suicidal to stand by while a regional power (Iran) attempts to develop nuclear capabilities, while openly practicing war games. Israel is doing what it has to, and the Obama administration is distancing itself from our only major ally in the Middle East.

If Israel feels threatened by a nuclear Iran, I have no doubts that they will strike preemptively. Until then, though, both sides will bide their time wrestling the bureaucracy of the UN with continuous multilateral sanctions.

So if Iran feels threatened by a nuclear Israel they have every right to do whatever it takes to protect themselves too right?

[Gamma Ray]

or it's a fake posted by a bunch of haters like you to use for propaganda purposes.

Yup, I'm the hater...

You're so crazed, I wouldn't be surprised if you started foaming at the mouth every time you posted. You blindly support any cause against Israel and even though you claim to want peace and a cessation of killing, you respond to news of terrorism against Jews with what seems like reserved exuberance.

I'll bet you've never even been near Israel, but it's just so easy for you to talk when there's nothing but a screen in front of you.



So if Iran feels threatened by a nuclear Israel they have every right to do whatever it takes to protect themselves too right?

This may be the peak of asinine comments I've read from you. I really wonder if you truly believe in what you write.

[Gamma Ray]

Again, the link you sent me is not from the main source, which is the Palestinian Information Center. The site you sent me looks like a hotbed of radicals looking to stir up trouble rather than a proper official channel. Since those pictures are watermarked, they must have been originally hosted by the PIC or its affiliates on their websites, and that's the link I want.

I didn't realize this was posted in an official news source, but I'm glad it is:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3502572,00.html

Are they also breaking their fasts on flowers? I mean, I know these people are trapped with a 15th century rulership, but surely they know that flowers aren't edible. Or at least not all that tasty.

[hippie_hunter]

This may be the peak of asinine comments I've read from you. I really wonder if you truly believe in what you write.
Here's what I don't understand, Israel has the right to preemptively strike when it feels threatened, by why don't its neighbors have the same right? The fact is that just like how Israel feels threatened by its neighbors, Israels' neighbors feel threatened by Israel.

[Gamma Ray]

Here's what I don't understand, Israel has the right to preemptively strike when it feels threatened, by why don't its neighbors have the same right? The fact is that just like how Israel feels threatened by its neighbors, Israels' neighbors feel threatened by Israel.

Why is Israel threatened by its neighbors? Think about that and tell me who/what you think is the cause and effect in each of these situations. You can go as far back as 1948 (or further), but lets just keep it current and consider Iran.

Read about Israel-Iran relations and you will very clearly see who should feel threatened and who is doing the threatening (and who did it first): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_relations#Khamenei_era_.281989-2009.29

[Hobodeluxe]

Why is Israel threatened by its neighbors? Think about that and tell me who/what you think is the cause and effect in each of these situations. You can go as far back as 1948 (or further), but lets just keep it current and consider Iran.

Read about Israel-Iran relations and you will very clearly see who should feel threatened and who is doing the threatening (and who did it first): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_relations#Khamenei_era_.281989-2009.29


Israel has the same problem the U.S. does. they're too arrogant and exceptional. they have their own set of rules and everyone else plays the way they want them to or they use their superior firepower to force their will on other sovereign nations over some fear that someone might one day have the ability to hurt them. they're practicing a self fufllling manifest destiny. the scary thing is that a lot of the religious types think that this is supposed to happen. that Israel is God's chosen people and it's the Christian's duty to protect them and do what they want.
And that is no better than the radical Islamic ideology.

We are our own worst enemy. The only difference is they fight with whatever they have whether it's rocks or homemade rockets or suicide vests. We somehow feel less barbaric pushing a button from relative safety. It's all the same. violence to serve a geo political-financial purpose using religion as a catalyst.

Iraq was no threat to the U.S. it was for Israel that the neocons lied us into that war. The fact that they had oil just greased the skids.

[Fenrir]

I didn't realize this was posted in an official news source, but I'm glad it is:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3502572,00.html

Are they also breaking their fasts on flowers? I mean, I know these people are trapped with a 15th century rulership, but surely they know that flowers aren't edible. Or at least not all that tasty.

The link you posted was published on: Published: 02.04.08, 15:23. Next time, check the dates before you use a two year old news source to prove something you claim occurred two days ago.

And frankly speaking, it is not unfathomable that the people of Gaza would celebrate an attack on Israel in 2008, not after the atrocities committed on them by the IDF during the invasion at the time that resulted in countless civilian and, more inhumanely, children casualties. No sane person in Gaza can be expected to sympathize with Israel after that. Furthermore, the pro-Israeli camp is disgustingly and openly apathetic towards the loss of Palestinian civilian lives, yet the Palestinians' apathy towards Israel is branded about as a sign of their 'barbarism'. What beautiful double standards.

[Gamma Ray]

My bad. That was a blunder. But it's not unfathomable to imagine them celebrating two days ago either and the sentiments expressed on that board in Arabic are not those of a few. I know this first hand.

And nice try wedging that last thought in. It's well known by this point that Hamas uses children as human shields and fights near heavily populated areas. That blood is on their hands. Here's a video featuring Col. Richard Kemp, a man who I'm guessing has a more distinguished resume than you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo

[Hobodeluxe]

The link you posted was published on: Published: 02.04.08, 15:23. Next time, check the dates before you use a two year old news source to prove something you claim occurred two days ago.

And frankly speaking, it is not unfathomable that the people of Gaza would celebrate an attack on Israel in 2008, not after the atrocities committed on them by the IDF during the invasion at the time that resulted in countless civilian and, more inhumanely, children casualties. No sane person in Gaza can be expected to sympathize with Israel after that. Furthermore, the pro-Israeli camp is disgustingly and openly apathetic towards the loss of Palestinian civilian lives, yet the Palestinians' apathy towards Israel is branded about as a sign of their 'barbarism'. What beautiful double standards.

yes he talks of graphic images. I could show him some graphic images of women and children dead, burnt to a crisp by illegal white phosphorous weapons. or an article where 3 IDF soldiers got 10 days in jail for killing a Palestinian man at a picnic.

[hippie_hunter]

Why is Israel threatened by its neighbors? Think about that and tell me who/what you think is the cause and effect in each of these situations. You can go as far back as 1948 (or further), but lets just keep it current and consider Iran.

Read about Israel-Iran relations and you will very clearly see who should feel threatened and who is doing the threatening (and who did it first): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_relations#Khamenei_era_.281989-2009.29
Both Israel and Iran have legitimate reasons to feel threatened by each other.

[Gamma Ray]

yes he talks of graphic images. I could show him some graphic images of women and children dead, burnt to a crisp by illegal white phosphorous weapons. or an article where 3 IDF soldiers got 10 days in jail for killing a Palestinian man at a picnic.

Yup, what a horrible country Israel is. They send sharpshooters to murder babies and F-16s to raze arab cities.

It's ridiculous to expect a clean war where only "the bad guys" are killed in the same way it's ridiculous to expect Israel to sit back while being attacked.

You know how I know this is more of a Israel as a Jewish state issue than it is about Israel as a crazed militant state? The fact that nobody ever mentions the atrocities of the other side.




Both Israel and Iran have legitimate reasons to feelathreatened by another.

If you tell me you're going to kick my ass and I say I'm going to hit you first if you start to clench your fist, who is in the wrong?

[hippie_hunter]

If you tell me you're going to kick my ass and I say I'm going to hit you first if you start to clench your fist, who is in the wrong?
Ummmm......you. Saying and actually doing are two very different things. If I actually attempted to swing, that would be different.

The fact is that Israel has the right to feel threatened by Iran because of anti-Zionist, most of the Middle East has towards Israel and the Iranian regime is rather unpredictable. Meanwhile, Iran has the right to feel threatened by Israel because Israel in the past 20 years has preemptively attacked her neighbors such as Lebanon and Iraq over and over and over again and often her reactions are overzealous.

[Gamma Ray]

Ummmm......you. Saying and actually doing are two very different things. If I actually attempted to swing, that would be different.

The fact is that Israel has the right to feel threatened by Iran because of anti-Zionist, most of the Middle East has towards Israel and the Iranian regime is rather unpredictable. Meanwhile, Iran has the right to feel threatened by Israel because Israel in the past 20 years has preemptively attacked her neighbors such as Lebanon and Iraq over and over and over again and often her reactions are overzealous.

But Iran is "attempting the swing". The most powerful intelligence agencies in the world agree that Iran is seeking and enriching weapons grade uranium. The fact that Israel intends on cutting them off before they can make enough weapons or even use one does not change that Iran wants and intends to make nukes.

[hippie_hunter]

But Iran is "attempting the swing". The most powerful intelligence agencies in the world agree that Iran is seeking and enriching weapons grade uranium. The fact that Israel intends on cutting them off before they can make enough weapons or even use one does not change that Iran wants and intends to make nukes.
I wonder why Iran is developing nuclear weapons.....maybe it's because Israel has them? And why does Israel have them, because Israel feels threatened by her neighbors. It goes full circle. I don't trust a nuclear Iran one bit, but to take a look at the core reason why Iran is developing them, is very simple. Iran isn't attempting to swing. It's clenching its fist. Iran attempting to swing would be Israel uncovering an Iranian plot to attack Israel.

Also, the most powerful intelligence agencies in the world also agreed that Iraq had an active WMD program.

EDIT: And I would like to add that this just simply isn't a black and white issue that you're making out to be. Both Israel and the Islamic world have legitimate arguments against the other. It isn't at all where one side is the bad guy (Israel or the Islamic world, take your pick) and the other is the good guy. It's more like one douche bag arguing with another douche bag, over who the bigger douche bag is.

[Schlosser85]

Israel was founded on land that the Arabs felt was stolen from them. I'm not arguing the matter, just stating what the perception is.

Israelis feel God gave them Israel, Arabs feel Israelis stole their land=Arab neighbors hate Israel and believe it has no right to exist=Israel is on the defensive.

Arab terrorists attack Israel incessantly, only adding to Israel's intense state of defensiveness. Israel makes preemptive strikes against neighbors. Neighbors retaliate. Israel retaliates for their retaliation. They retaliate for Israel's retaliation against their retaliation. It's a vicious circle. The result of the constant attacks back and forth is that the Arab nations hate Israel with a burning intensity, and Israel is trigger-happy and overzealous, for which it cannot be completely blamed, because bombs are going off in its towns every time it blinks.

It's a vicious cycle of violence. The real victims are the Israeli civilians and Palestinian refugees caught in the middle.

[hippie_hunter]

Israel was founded on land that the Arabs felt was stolen from them. I'm not arguing the matter, just stating what the perception is.

Israelis feel God gave them Israel, Arabs feel Israelis stole their land=Arab neighbors hate Israel and believe it has no right to exist=Israel is on the defensive.

Arab terrorists attack Israel incessantly, only adding to Israel's intense state of defensiveness. Israel makes preemptive strikes against neighbors. Neighbors retaliate. Israel retaliates for their retaliation. They retaliate for Israel's retaliation against their retaliation. It's a vicious circle. The result of the constant attacks back and forth is that the Arab nations hate Israel with a burning intensity, and Israel is trigger-happy and overzealous, for which it cannot be completely blamed, because bombs are going off in its towns every time it blinks.

It's a vicious cycle of violence. The real victims are the Israeli civilians and Palestinian refugees caught in the middle.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/hippie_hunter/1233928590_citizen20kane20clapping.gif

[Matt]

Well said.

[Gamma Ray]

lol

What movie is that from?


And the only thing I would add to Schlosser's post is that it's not just the whole Gd-given thing, it's also the UN given thing.

[Hobgoblin]

Yup, thats pretty much it. The only thing I would add is that the US gets dragged into the mess because we are Israel's ally. We help Israel, the Arab states attack the US. The US retaliates and the world criticizes us. Europeans and Russians feel sympathetic to the Arabs and build nuke reactors in Iran, sucking the world into a regional conflict. Well, not militarily. Not yet.

lol

What movie is that from?




Citizen Cain, I think.

[Hobodeluxe]

lol

What movie is that from?


And the only thing I would add to Schlosser's post is that it's not just the whole Gd-given thing, it's also the UN given thing.

the UN didn't give them Gaza. and you're saying I just froth at the mouth and celebrate when Israel gets attacked is a lie. You call me asinine when I point out your false propaganda.
you have said yourself that it's okay for Israel to use illegal weapons on women and children because hey that's they way things are,war is dirty etc.
so in your opinion it's okay for Israel to have and use illegal weapons and nukes. It's okay for Israel to attack preemptively when they feel the least bit threatened.
but it's not okay for Iran to feel threatened and want the same protections Israel has. and it's not okay for the Palestinians to fight back while they are being occupied and oppressed,their land stolen their people terrorized by the IDF daily.
and you have the nerve to say I have double standards?

[Marx]

Israel was founded on land that the Arabs felt was stolen from them. I'm not arguing the matter, just stating what the perception is.

Israelis feel God gave them Israel, Arabs feel Israelis stole their land=Arab neighbors hate Israel and believe it has no right to exist=Israel is on the defensive.

Arab terrorists attack Israel incessantly, only adding to Israel's intense state of defensiveness. Israel makes preemptive strikes against neighbors. Neighbors retaliate. Israel retaliates for their retaliation. They retaliate for Israel's retaliation against their retaliation. It's a vicious circle. The result of the constant attacks back and forth is that the Arab nations hate Israel with a burning intensity, and Israel is trigger-happy and overzealous, for which it cannot be completely blamed, because bombs are going off in its towns every time it blinks.

It's a vicious cycle of violence. The real victims are the Israeli civilians and Palestinian refugees caught in the middle.

Well said man.

[Malice]

Israel was founded on land that the Arabs felt was stolen from them. I'm not arguing the matter, just stating what the perception is.

Israelis feel God gave them Israel, Arabs feel Israelis stole their land=Arab neighbors hate Israel and believe it has no right to exist=Israel is on the defensive.

Arab terrorists attack Israel incessantly, only adding to Israel's intense state of defensiveness. Israel makes preemptive strikes against neighbors. Neighbors retaliate. Israel retaliates for their retaliation. They retaliate for Israel's retaliation against their retaliation. It's a vicious circle. The result of the constant attacks back and forth is that the Arab nations hate Israel with a burning intensity, and Israel is trigger-happy and overzealous, for which it cannot be completely blamed, because bombs are going off in its towns every time it blinks.

It's a vicious cycle of violence. The real victims are the Israeli civilians and Palestinian refugees caught in the middle.


Absolutely...it will never change in my mind till something far worse occurs...

[Midnyte_Sun]

I refuse to accept that this conflict is just due to cause-effect reactions that Schlosser simplified for us.

Let's get honest here. Israel is run by the far-right, the hawkish right that defends bombing civilian infrastructure, building illegal settlements, evicting Palestinians from their homes, erasing Palestinian villages, pretending that Palestinians don't exist, and forcibly removing Palestinians from Jerusalem to strengthen their hold over the city to make it part of Israel.

On the flip side, we have Hamas which is bent on destroying Israel and other extremist elements who would never compromise and look at any peace offer as a sign of weakness.

The only difference between the two is that one side has the nukes, the bulldozers, and trillion dollars of historic aid.

[Malice]

Like many of the racial hates now...
Some of those doing the hating dont even know why except that was what they learned.

Granted violence creates hate...but some just dont even know why they hate

[Gamma Ray]

http://seekingalpha.com/article/223487-israel-s-huge-oil-and-gas-discovery?source=kizur

Awesome.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Finally, America can rid itself of dependence on Middle Eastern oil!

Oh wait...

[Gamma Ray]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/09/02/mideast.hamas.resistance/index.html


Hamas promises more attacks on innocents.

[Gamma Ray]

Let's get honest here. Israel is run by the far-right, the hawkish right that defends bombing civilian infrastructure, building illegal settlements, evicting Palestinians from their homes, erasing Palestinian villages, pretending that Palestinians don't exist, and forcibly removing Palestinians from Jerusalem to strengthen their hold over the city to make it part of Israel.


:whatever::whatever::whatever::whatever::whatever:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4464/arabsandjewsnumbers.gif


Once again, nice try demonizing Israel.

Oh, and of course if there was a two state agreement, no Jews would be allowed to live in Palestine, yet Israeli Arabs would continue to enjoy their freedoms as Israelis.

[Hobodeluxe]

:whatever::whatever::whatever::whatever::whatever:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4464/arabsandjewsnumbers.gif


Once again, nice try demonizing Israel.

Oh, and of course if there was a two state agreement, no Jews would be allowed to live in Palestine, yet Israeli Arabs would continue to enjoy their freedoms as Israelis.

that's because "Israel" is a lot bigger than before too.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb33/hobodeluxe/218f63cf.jpg

[Compi716]

that's because "Israel" is a lot bigger than before too.

What else would you have us call it? Palestine? You do realize that you're simply the other extreme, right? If all the pro-Israel people are all the way to the right, then you're off the left's deep end. Denying a country's existence won't win you any battles.

[Gamma Ray]

that's because "Israel" is a lot bigger than before too.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb33/hobodeluxe/218f63cf.jpg

That's because "Palestine" keeps losing their land in wars because the arabs are pathetic and cowardly fighters. Last time I checked, nobody ever faulted an arab country for gaining land through defensive force OR for expelling "Palestinians" (Jordan [oh yeah, you forgot that what is currently called JORDAN was part of "PALESTINE"]) OR for keeping "Palestinians" in refugee camps where they truly are treated like FIFTH CLASS citizens (Lebanon). Why not hold them to the same standard as Israel?


So yes, you can keep posting that BS map, but try to remember that the "Palestinian" arab brethren don't actually give a **** about them and are just as guilty about "stealing" their land.

[Hobodeluxe]

What else would you have us call it? Palestine? You do realize that you're simply the other extreme, right? If all the pro-Israel people are all the way to the right, then you're off the left's deep end. Denying a country's existence won't win you any battles.

When did I deny Israel's existence?

[Hobodeluxe]

That's because "Palestine" keeps losing their land in wars because the arabs are pathetic and cowardly fighters. Last time I checked, nobody ever faulted an arab country for gaining land through defensive force OR for expelling "Palestinians" (Jordan [oh yeah, you forgot that what is currently called JORDAN was part of "PALESTINE"]) OR for keeping "Palestinians" in refugee camps where they truly are treated like FIFTH CLASS citizens (Lebanon). Why not hold them to the same standard as Israel?


So yes, you can keep posting that BS map, but try to remember that the "Palestinian" arab brethren don't actually give a **** about them and are just as guilty about "stealing" their land.


You think if maybe Palestine had all the support of the US and the UN and if Israel had been kept in the stone age militarily that they would have been victorious in all their "wars".

I find it very amusing you think standing up to an overpowering force and risking your life or even sacrificing it is cowardly.

have you been reading The Torat ha-Melekh?

“In any situation in which a non-Jew’s presence endangers Jewish lives, the non-Jew may be killed even if he is a righteous Gentile and not at all guilty for the situation that has been created…When a non-Jew assists a murderer of Jews and causes the death of one, he may be killed, and in any case where a non-Jew’s presence causes danger to Jews, the non-Jew may be killed…The [Din Rodef] dispensation applies even when the pursuer is not threatening to kill directly, but only indirectly…Even a civilian who assists combat fighters is considered a pursuer and may be killed. Anyone who assists the army of the wicked in any way is strengthening murderers and is considered a pursuer. A civilian who encourages the war gives the king and his soldiers the strength to continue. Therefore, any citizen of the state that opposes us who encourages the combat soldiers or expresses satisfaction over their actions is considered a pursuer and may be killed. Also, anyone who weakens our own state by word or similar action is considered a pursuer…Hindrances—babies are found many times in this situation. They block the way to rescue by their presence and do so completely by force. Nevertheless, they may be killed because their presence aids murder. There is justification for killing babies if it is clear that they will grow up to harm us, and in such a situation they may be harmed deliberately, and not only during combat with adults.”…In a chapter entitled “Deliberate harm to innocents,” the book explains that war is directled mainly against the pursuers, but those who belong to the enemy nation are also considered the enemy because they are assisting murderers.

Some articles on this book (http://coteret.com/2009/11/09/settler-rabbi-publishes-the-complete-guide-to-killing-non-jews/)

another article (http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/08/how-to-kill-goyim-and-influence-people-leading-israeli-rabbis-defend-manual-for-for-killing-non-jews/)


and you call them barbarians and savages.

[Gamma Ray]

So you didn't actually address anything I said. Instead you point to something written by a Jewish radical that is completely contrary to Jewish law (number 6/10) which states that killing is prohibited and that life is sacred.

Now lets look at the Quaran, since you brought up "religious" texts:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)




And I'm still waiting for you to address what I said earlier about Jordan, Lebanon, and hell why not add Syria and Egypt to the mix as well?

[Gamma Ray]

I find it very amusing you think standing up to an overpowering force and risking your life or even sacrificing it is cowardly.

And I find it absolutely sickening that you think that people blowing themselves up on civilian buses, coffee shops, places of worship, bus stations, etc, etc, etc is anything but cowardly. And I'm not only talking about in Israel.

[Scourge2099]

Finally, America can rid itself of dependence on Middle Eastern oil!

Oh wait...
America actually gets more oil from Canada and Mexico than we do from the Middle East.

[Hobodeluxe]

And I find it absolutely sickening that you think that people blowing themselves up on civilian buses, coffee shops, places of worship, bus stations, etc, etc, etc is anything but cowardly. And I'm not only talking about in Israel.


I suppose I have a different idea of what a coward is.
to me a coward is someone who will be hawkish on war and cheer it on and then sit in their comfy chair hoping someone else does their dirty work for them.

you fail to see the objective they have. they can't stand toe to toe with an overpowering force. the only thing they can accomplish that way is getting themselves killed w/o causing the enemy to suffer.
in guerilla warfare you choose soft targets. you don't go all Rambo and storm a hardened target because you will not succeed in your objective.
still that seems to be more "courageous and honorable" to you. in the end are they both not looking death in the face willingly? the only difference is one will a chance to hurt the enemy.

[Gamma Ray]

Still sickened. And still no response. Typical.

[Hobodeluxe]

Still sickened. And still no response. Typical.

I have no idea what kind of response you're asking for concerning other Arab countries. What is the question again?

and the sickened feeling is mutual btw.

and I can find scriptures from the Hebrew texts that say basically the same thing as the Quran texts you quoted. ( a lot of them out of context btw) I have no idea what your point was in that.

was that somehow supposed to justify something?

[Marx]

Let's keep it all civil guys. :up:

[Gamma Ray]

I have no idea what kind of response you're asking for concerning other Arab countries. What is the question again?

and the sickened feeling is mutual btw.

and I can find scriptures from the Hebrew texts that say basically the same thing as the Quran texts you quoted. ( a lot of them out of context btw) I have no idea what your point was in that.

was that somehow supposed to justify something?


I pose the same question to your quotation.

I want to know why you don't condemn Arab countries. I understand your staunch sense of brotherhood, but your blind support is frankly part of why the world is such a mess. It shouldn't be a big deal when a Muslim leader condemns evil actions. It should be the norm.

And don't respond that I too support my nation blindly because I do not. I condemn when it is deserved.



Let's keep it all civil guys. :up:
:up:

[Hobodeluxe]

I pose the same question to your quotation.

I want to know why you don't condemn Arab countries. I understand your staunch sense of brotherhood, but your blind support is frankly part of why the world is such a mess. It shouldn't be a big deal when a Muslim leader condemns evil actions. It should be the norm.

And don't respond that I too support my nation blindly because I do not. I condemn when it is deserved.




:thumbup:

I'm not concerned with the land that Israel was granted in 1947 legally. I'm talking about the slow steady expansion since then. What's happening now. We can't change the past. The settlements need to be given back.

[Compi716]

I wouldn't exactly call the expansion slow...it took only 20 years for Israel to win all the land, only to give the Golan, Gaza, and the West Bank back.

Expansion is the natural progression of humanity. We see this all throughout history. There is always a winner, and there is always a loser. This is fact.

What is the solution? Stop the expansion? Easier said than done. More and more immigrants move to Israel every year. They need some place to go, don't they? Even if the expansion of settlements stops tomorrow, it's only a matter of time till the cycle begins again. Now, I pose this question to you, Hobo: Opinions on "ownership of land" aside, what if the situation was reversed? What if it were Palestinians building in Israeli land? Would you still be as against it?

[Gamma Ray]

What if it were Palestinians building in Israeli land? Would you still be as against it?

Israeli land? I think it's all "Palestinian" land to him.




In other news:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcJU0WuW6D8&feature=sub

Video footage of the aftermath of the explosion today in Al-Shahabiya, a village in southern Lebanon, shows smoke rising from a building. Hezbollah controls this area of Lebanon and the building where the explosion occurred was used as a Hezbollah weapons storage facility.

Today's incident is only one of many that clearly show that Hezbollah systematically violates United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701, which stipulates that Hezbollah should be disarmed and that no paramilitary groups will be active south of the Litani river.



Can't wait to hear everyone scold Hezbollah for violating UN resolution... Any minute now...

[Hobodeluxe]

I pose the same question to your quotation.

I want to know why you don't condemn Arab countries. I understand your staunch sense of brotherhood, but your blind support is frankly part of why the world is such a mess. It shouldn't be a big deal when a Muslim leader condemns evil actions. It should be the norm.

And don't respond that I too support my nation blindly because I do not. I condemn when it is deserved.




:up:

since when am I an Arab or a Muslim? I'm an atheist. I think it's all a bunch of hooey. Superstitions and myth used to control the non critical thinking mind. And yeah I condemn violence on all sides. By the US by Israel, By Hamas, Hezbollah and anyone else.

[Hobodeluxe]

Israeli land? I think it's all "Palestinian" land to him.




In other news:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcJU0WuW6D8&feature=sub

Video footage of the aftermath of the explosion today in Al-Shahabiya, a village in southern Lebanon, shows smoke rising from a building. Hezbollah controls this area of Lebanon and the building where the explosion occurred was used as a Hezbollah weapons storage facility.

Today's incident is only one of many that clearly show that Hezbollah systematically violates United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701, which stipulates that Hezbollah should be disarmed and that no paramilitary groups will be active south of the Litani river.



Can't wait to hear everyone scold Hezbollah for violating UN resolution... Any minute now...

So showing a building burning in southern Lebanon is proof Hezbollah violated a UN resolution? How do we even know it's in Lebanon, a Hezbollah operated site or full of illegal weapons? Are we just supposed to trust you? You don't have that kind of credibility.

you should also answer the questions people put to you if you're going to harp on about how people aren't answering yours. I've went out of my way to explain the obvious to you.

[Hobodeluxe]

I wouldn't exactly call the expansion slow...it took only 20 years for Israel to win all the land, only to give the Golan, Gaza, and the West Bank back.

Expansion is the natural progression of humanity. We see this all throughout history. There is always a winner, and there is always a loser. This is fact.

What is the solution? Stop the expansion? Easier said than done. More and more immigrants move to Israel every year. They need some place to go, don't they? Even if the expansion of settlements stops tomorrow, it's only a matter of time till the cycle begins again. Now, I pose this question to you, Hobo: Opinions on "ownership of land" aside, what if the situation was reversed? What if it were Palestinians building in Israeli land? Would you still be as against it?

You cannot just take people's land. not and me be okay with it.
If my family gets bigger can I come and throw you out of your house and take it? It's a natural thing. What am I supposed to do? Quit having kids?
you have such a sense of entitlement.
and yes I've said many times in this thread that if the Palestinians were an overwhelming military force and they were taking Israel's land I'd be on their case.

[Midnyte_Sun]

I wouldn't exactly call the expansion slow...it took only 20 years for Israel to win all the land, only to give the Golan, Gaza, and the West Bank back.

Expansion is the natural progression of humanity. We see this all throughout history. There is always a winner, and there is always a loser. This is fact.


We're not living in the Dark Ages or the 18th century. Expansion is natural for super powers/hyper powers, but so is native rebellion. Rarely, if ever, do Expansionist empires get a warm welcome by the people they want to remove or convert. Historically, large empire's created outposts and those that remained, remained by force by killing, subjugating, and/or evicting all the original inhabitants. Cases in point: East India Company & the British, the Americans, The Persians, the Romans, the Dutch, the Spanish, etc, etc.

Israel is unnatural to the geo-political spectrum (this is fact also) it chose to create it's nation. The creation and Establishment of Israel is equivalent of implanting Saudi Arabia in Texas. The only thing natural after that point, would be war between that nation and it's gun-ho neighbors.

If it wants to survive to the next century it has to make peace.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Once again, nice try demonizing Israel.

Oh, and of course if there was a two state agreement, no Jews would be allowed to live in Palestine, yet Israeli Arabs would continue to enjoy their freedoms as Israelis.

You're too quick to jump the gun. I mentioned specifically the right-wing Israeli politicians who have had control of Israel for far too long. There was a time in American politics where building Israeli settlements in occupied territory was illegal, yet all that changed when Reagan took office. Since then Israeli settlement activity has sky-rocketed. The most illegal settlement activity occurred just before the 2000 Peace accords.

As for the simple question as to why Jews in other countries are decreasing? Oh I don't know, maybe the creation of Israel had something to do with that? Did you know there was over 10,000 Jews in Afghanistan prior to Israel's creation, half of them went to Israel, and the other half fled during the Soviet invasion. I got this info from a Afghani Jew living in New York! Israel is getting Jews from places outsiders didn't even know Jewry existed.

[Gamma Ray]

You clearly don't know anything about what happened to Jews in Arab nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_lands

"Between 800,000-1,000,000 Jews were expelled or left their homes in Arab countries due to persecution and anti-Semitism."

[Midnyte_Sun]

I'm reading through it for you Gammy but I see more things to enforce my argument that it wasn't blind hatred but the creation of Israel that had a role to play in the decrease of Jewry in other parts of the world. These are some quotes from your link you provided:

"Conversely, the idea of Zionism and of a Jewish state was appealing to the Jews; however, this entailed leaving the land in which they had lived for generations. Insecurity was exacerbated by the process of the Arab struggle for independence and the conflict in Palestine and in some cases this led to physical expulsion and appropriation of property....From 1948-1949, the Israeli government secretly airlifted 50,000 Jews from Yemen and from 1950–1952, 130,000 Jews were airlifted from Iraq. From 1949-1951, 30,000 Jews fled Libya to Israel. In these cases over 90% of the Jewish population opted to leave, despite the necessity of leaving their property behind..."

"Jewish Nakba" is sometimes used to refer to the persecution and expulsion of Jews from Arab countries in the years and decades following the creation of the State of Israel[16]"

There you have it, the creation of Israel had a role in this 'mass explusion.' This is not some random act of aggression by Arabs.

Does it not surprise you that this mass exodus did not happen during Ottoman or Muslim-Arab rule in the past? That Arabs and Jews allied together to help defeat the Frank Crusaders? How they lived and worked together in Syria, Persia, and even Muslim historians like the famous Al-Beruni was the first scientist to be able to compile scientific documents on Jewish chronology with the help of his Ananite and Karaites (Rabbanites)? They (Karaites) even had their golden age during Arab/Turk/Muslim rule. Does it not surprise you that tens of thousands of Jews fled Russia for countries even as far as Muslim Afghanistan?

If you add every death of an Israeli by Arabs since the creation of Israel on one scale and Arab/Muslim and Jewish co-existence in another, you would truly understand the scope of your Arabophobia.

[Gamma Ray]

Oh please. Arab antisemitism is in no way a modern thing. Even when Jews lived in Arab countries, they were often second class citizens and often treated as such, living in what were essentially ghettos. That's not to say that this was always the case, but it certainly wasn't quite lollipops and roses as you seem to think. Once the Jews got their own country and didn't have to deal with being kicked around anymore, they were seen as a threat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world

http://middleeastfacts.com/Articles/history-of-jews-in-arab-countries.php

I also find it interesting that you haven't addressed the rise in Arab population in modern day Israel.

[Christopher Nolan]

but they do the same with arab israelis now.

so, what did change? nothing. it's a new boss in the area..

[Gamma Ray]

but they do the same with arab israelis now.


And you clearly don't know anything about Israeli Arabs if you think that. They get free health care, free education, full citizen rights, places in Israeli parliament, etc. It's actually in Israel's best interest to have them as "Palestinians" since they essentially suck money.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Oh please. Arab antisemitism is in no way a modern thing. Even when Jews lived in Arab countries, they were often second class citizens and often treated as such, living in what were essentially ghettos.

Gammy please stop arguing about symantics when everybody already knows you are already prejudiced against Arabs and Muslims. There was no 'citizenship' back in the Dark Ages or during the Arab Caliphates. Yes Jews were treated differently (sometimes worse but not always) from Muslims, but that was far better than what the Romans, Christian crusaders, or other empires treated them at those times. They thrived, their religion thrived and they were well respected among their Arab peers. Jews during the Islamic Golden age were known for their honesty as tax collectors and played as advisers to empires. When things went bad in Bolshevik Russia, they fled to Muslim countries. Your 'dhimmi' argument is flawed and has been debunked by most older and modern historians.

Once the Jews got their own country and didn't have to deal with being kicked around anymore, they were seen as a threat.

Of all things that influenced the creation of Israel, WWII played the biggest role, not Arab Jewphobia or Muslim anti-semitism.

I also find it interesting that you haven't addressed the rise in Arab population in modern day Israel.

So...you want to prove that Israel is not neutering them like Alberto Fujimori did with the indigenous in Peru? I never said the Israelis are committing genocide. The Palestinian refugees in Arab states who lost their homes in what is now Israel have also thriving populations.

There are still injustices occuring in Israel. Palestinian families in East Jerusalem face all kinds of legal problems building and they are often evicted (even moving Jewish families with armed security into Palestinian homes the same hour as they evicted the Palestinian family); they have committed historical revisionism (ie. Palestinian Arabs don't exist), erasing Arab towns and replacing them with Jewish ones, the list goes on and on.

[Gamma Ray]

There are still injustices occuring in Israel. Palestinian families in East Jerusalem face all kinds of legal problems building and they are often evicted (even moving Jewish families with armed security into Palestinian homes the same hour as they evicted the Palestinian family); they have committed historical revisionism (ie. Palestinian Arabs don't exist), erasing Arab towns and replacing them with Jewish ones, the list goes on and on.

That actually sounds a lot more like what the Arabs are doing. Denying Jewish right to the land (or even that Jews control the land), denying the holocaust (don't tell me they do not, because I've seen FIRST HAND - in Israel - the Arab reaction to both the Yom HaShoah siren and heard their thoughts about it), destroying Jewish holy sites (Joseph's tomb), erasing Jewish cities, teaching children that Jews are the devil through schoolbooks and television, training children to be martyrs against Jews and Israel, etc.

The fact is that "Palestinians" are actually mostly Jordanians, Syrians and other Arab nationals. The name "Palestinian" - in reference to a person's nationality - was essentially coined overnight in 1967.

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".

- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -


"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not".

- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -


"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".

- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".

- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -


"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".

- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -


"As I lived in Palestine, everyone I knew could trace their heritage back to the original country their great grandparents came from. Everyone knew their origin was not from the Canaanites, but ironically, this is the kind of stuff our education in the Middle East included. The fact is that today's Palestinians are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the history and origins of today's Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, muslim Sherkas from Russia, muslims from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. My grandfather, who was a dignitary in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields) in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants".

- Walid Shoebat, an "ex-Palestinian" Arab -

"There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent (valley of Jezreel, Galilea); not for thirty miles in either direction... One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings. For the sort of solitude to make one dreary, come to Galilee... Nazareth is forlorn... Jericho lies a mouldering ruin... Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation... untenanted by any living creature... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent, mournful expanse... a desolation... We never saw a human being on the whole route... Hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil had almost deserted the country... Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes... desolate and unlovely...".

- Mark Twain, "The Innocents Abroad", 1867 -

[Midnyte_Sun]

Denying Jewish right to the land (or even that Jews control the land), denying the holocaust (don't tell me they do not, because I've seen FIRST HAND - in Israel - the Arab reaction to both the Yom HaShoah siren

What's worse, denying people exist or denying a war crime? You have totally evaded the actual point. Arab hatred of Jews has a lot to do with the creation of Israel. Not some blind hatred that you share for them.

If they hated them the way you described they would never have been one Jew surviving in Palestine or anywhere in the Middle East prior to Israel's creation.


and heard their thoughts about it), destroying Jewish holy sites (Joseph's tomb), erasing Jewish cities, teaching children that Jews are the devil through schoolbooks and television, training children to be martyrs against Jews and Israel, etc.

Ah, yes Joseph's tomb.

"For generations, the Tomb of Joseph was cherished and attended by the Arab people of Nablus, but it was seized by the Israelis in 1975. The infamous Oslo accords left it as an armed Israeli enclave in the heart of the Palestinian city. It became a Yeshiva of a Kabbalist sect led by Rabbi Isaac Ginzburg. His name should ring a bell. He stated in the interview with "Jewish Week," that a Jew is entitled to cut off the liver of any Gentile in order to save his own life, as the life of a Jew is incomparably more precious than the life of a Gentile."

- Israel Shamir, March 3, 2001

What have you to say for the 120 Mosques destroyed by Israel since it's inception?

"Referring to research carried out by Israeli professor Ayal Banbanetchi, Rapaport noted that after 1948, only 160 Mosques remained in the area. In the following years, this number shrank to 40, meaning that 120 were destroyed...Rapaport argues that such destruction was not limited to Mosques and states that several Arab neighborhoods in the cities of Jaffa and Lud were destroyed." One of the mosques was over 1000 years old.

There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".

- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -


"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not".

- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -


"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".

- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".

- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -


"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".

- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -


"As I lived in Palestine, everyone I knew could trace their heritage back to the original country their great grandparents came from. Everyone knew their origin was not from the Canaanites, but ironically, this is the kind of stuff our education in the Middle East included. The fact is that today's Palestinians are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the history and origins of today's Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, muslim Sherkas from Russia, muslims from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. My grandfather, who was a dignitary in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields) in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants".

- Walid Shoebat, an "ex-Palestinian" Arab -

"There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent (valley of Jezreel, Galilea); not for thirty miles in either direction... One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings. For the sort of solitude to make one dreary, come to Galilee... Nazareth is forlorn... Jericho lies a mouldering ruin... Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation... untenanted by any living creature... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent, mournful expanse... a desolation... We never saw a human being on the whole route... Hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil had almost deserted the country... Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes... desolate and unlovely...".
- Mark Twain, "The Innocents Abroad", 1867



""Whatever became of the slogan: A people without a land returns to land without a people? The simple truth was that Palestine was not an empty land, and the Jews were only a small minority of its population. In the days of the empire building, the Western powers had dismissed natives as an inconsequential factor in determining whether or not to settle a territory with immigrants. Even after the [1st] world war, the concept of self-determination . . . . was still reserved exclusively for the developed world." (Michael Bar-Zohar, p. 45-46) - Biographer of Ben Gurion, founding father of Israel.

""Four days after the constituent meeting, on October 8, 1906, the ten members of the platform committee met in an Arab hostel in Ramleh. For THREE DAYS they sat on stools debating, and at night they slept on mats. An Arab boy brought them coffee in small cups. They left the hostel only to grab an occasional bite in the marketplace. On the first evening, they stole three hours to tour the marketplace of Ramleh and the ruins of the nearby fortress. Ben-Gurion remarked only on the buildings, ruins, and scenery. He gave no thought to the [Palestinian] Arabs, their problems, their social conditions, or their cultural life. Nor had he yet acquainted himself with the Jewish community in Palestine [which was mostly non-Zionist Orthodox Jews prior to 1920]. In all of Palestine there were [in 1906] 700,000 inhabitants, only 55,000 of whom were Jews, and only 550 of these were [Zionists] pioneers." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 9-10)"

--

". . . There are now only five hundred thousand Arabs, who are not very strong, and from whom we shall easily take away the country if only we do it through stratagems [and] without drawing upon us their hostility before we become the strong and populous ones." (Righteous Victims, p. 49)"

In 1891 Ahad Ha'Am opened many Jewish eyes to the fact the Palestine was not empty, but populated with its indigenous people when he wrote:

"We abroad are used to believe the Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed ..... But in truth that is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains .... are not cultivated." (Righteous Victims, p. 42)"

Israel Zangwill, who had visited Palestine in 1897 and came face-to-face with the demographic reality. He stated in 1905 in a speech to a Zionist group in Manchester that:

"Israel Zangwill: Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ..... [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did.." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7- 10, and Righteous Victims, p. 140)"

On March 1, 1899 Yosef Diya al-Khalidi (from the renowned Jerusalem family) wrote in a letter to Theoder Herzl explaining that Zionism in practice entails the dispossession and the displacement of the Palestinian people, he wrote:

"It is necessary, therefore, for the peace of the Jews in [the Ottoman Empire] that the Zionist Movement . . . stop. . . Good lord, the world is vast enough, there are still uninhabited countries where one could settle millions of poor Jews who may perhaps become happy there and one day constitute a nation. . . .. In the name of God, let Palestine be left in peace." Herzl responded that Zionists do not intend on dispossession and displacing the Palestinians, on the contrary, he stated the Jews will bring to Palestine ONLY material benefits? (Righteous Victims, p. 37)"


--

I could do this all day too Gammy!

[Midnyte_Sun]

Another thing you fail to mention Gammy is that every nation in the Middle East was created with help from Colonial/European powers.

Iraq
Egypt
Iran
Jordan
Syria
Lebanon
Israel

With the exception of India and Pakistan (not the Middle East), all these countries, their nations, their borders were created by foreign powers. Most of Israel is comprised of immigrants. The Palestinian Arabs existed, they lived on that land, they cultivated it, their animals grazed on it, and they buried their dead in it. To say they don't exist for the sole purpose of justification in taking their land is quite ignorant.

[Midnyte_Sun]

The Source for the above quotes I mentioned can be found here:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story707.html

[Christopher Nolan]

And you clearly don't know anything about Israeli Arabs if you think that. They get free health care, free education, full citizen rights, places in Israeli parliament, etc. It's actually in Israel's best interest to have them as "Palestinians" since they essentially suck money.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/poll-half-of-israeli-teens-don-t-want-arab-students-in-their-class-1.312479

[Gamma Ray]

??? You linked to a poll taken by kids about whether they want arabs in their classes... Do those responses shock you? In a country as small as Israel, it's very likely that nearly all polled have had a relative or friend killed in a terrorist attack or in the army.

[Dr. Evil]

Another thing you fail to mention Gammy is that every nation in the Middle East was created with help from Colonial/European powers.

Iraq
Egypt
Iran
Jordan
Syria
Lebanon
Israel

With the exception of India and Pakistan (not the Middle East), all these countries, their nations, their borders were created by foreign powers. Most of Israel is comprised of immigrants. The Palestinian Arabs existed, they lived on that land, they cultivated it, their animals grazed on it, and they buried their dead in it. To say they don't exist for the sole purpose of justification in taking their land is quite ignorant.

If you also want to throw North Africa in there:

- Morocco (France)
- Algeria (France)
- Libya (Italy/France)
- Tunisia (France)
- Egypt (Britain)

[Christopher Nolan]

??? You linked to a poll taken by kids about whether they want arabs in their classes... Do those responses shock you? In a country as small as Israel, it's very likely that nearly all polled have had a relative or friend killed in a terrorist attack or in the army.

i doubt that. maybe on the palestine side...

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israel PM sees deal possible in year-no word yet on Settlement moratorium

06 Sep 2010 18:01:57 GMT
Source: Reuters

JERUSALEM, Sept 6 (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told visiting U.S. congressmen he thinks it could be possible to reach a peace deal with the Palestinians in a year despite huge differences, his spokesman said.

Netanyahu told the visiting delegation that he "believes it possible, through such direct and contiguous negotiations, held without breaks or delays, to achieve a peace agreement within a year", spokesman Nir Hefez said on Monday.

Netanyahu said he thought a goal of the Quartet of Middle East power brokers -- the U.S., European Union, United Nations and Russia -- to agree on the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel, was attainable, Hefez added.

The next round of Israeli, Palestinian negotiations was scheduled for Sept. 14 in Egypt, followed by a session expected on the following day, possibly in Jerusalem and in the attendance of U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
In an interview with a Palestinian newspaper, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said he would not continue the negotiations with Israel if Jewish settlement construction resumed once a temporary hiatus expires on Sept. 26.

"You must know that if you do not continue the settlement halt, we will leave these negotiations," the al-Ayyam newspaper quoted Abbas as saying he had told Netanyahu in their talks.

Source: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE6851UR.htm

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israel's Racist Rail System

The French company Veolia are building a $2 billion rail system for the Israeli authorities for a light rail transportation project in Jerusalem. This Light Rail Project is being billed to U.S. and European taxpayers.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2rhvjn5.jpg

The path of the light rail incorporates a number of Jewish settlements around East Jerusalem, built on stolen Palestinian land. It ensures the contiguity of these colonies with the central areas of the city and provides them with a vital transport link.

http://i56.tinypic.com/aahxc4.jpg

The project goes from Jerusalem to Ma’aleh Adumim, a large Israeli settlement in the West Bank, and from settlements in the West Bank’s Jordan Valley. The light rail project plays a key role in sustaining the settlements and ensuring they become a permanent fixture upon Palestinian land.

Source: http://current.com/news/92636282_israels-racist-rail-system-palestine-axisoflogic-com.htm

[The Squirrel]

Wait, why are we paying for a French companies project?

[Midnyte_Sun]

Wait, why are we paying for a French companies project?

Because they are classified as 'development' projects for Israel.

On the European side:

"Some 500 million euros of that sum is expected to go to Israeli firms, according to an irate David Cronin writing for IPS News, who described IAI as a “leading Israeli supplier of warplanes used to kill and maim civilians in Gaza.” Cronin wrote that the Jerusalem light rail project was “designed to connect illegal Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem with the city center.”

According to the Globes business news service, since 2007 Israel has won some 290 million euros in grant funding from the European Union's research program. The European Commission, executive arm of the EU, confirmed that at present there are 34 Israeli firms and research institutes collaborating in 26 EU-funded information technology projects.

Source: (IsraelNationalNews.com: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/138159)

[Midnyte_Sun]

If you also want to throw North Africa in there:

- Morocco (France)
- Algeria (France)
- Libya (Italy/France)
- Tunisia (France)
- Egypt (Britain)

Right, none of these countries (with nationalism) didn't really exist. Saudi Arabia didn't exist either until it was founded by Abdul-Aziz bin Saud. Did Mohammed the Prophet call himself Saudi? No, he was an Arab from the Hashemite Clan.

The fact of the matter is the lands were not depopulated and desolate, people lived there, died there, defended their land, got incorporated into other Empires, but the fact remains: They were always there.

[Midnyte_Sun]

In June 2006, Lt Colonel Ralph Peters wrote an article for the Armed Forces Journal explaining lots of the conflicts on the Middle East were due to badly demarcated borders by European powers. Here is a comparison of what Lt Colonel Peters saw of the 'true' Middle East and what is found today:

Current Middle East

http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/4633/middleeastmap.gif

More Accurate Middle East

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7415/projectednewmiddleeastm.jpg

His original article can be seen here:

http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1833899

[Gamma Ray]

Really makes me feel bad that there isn't another Muslim state there. Wish they had more land.

[Gamma Ray]

Israel's Racist Rail System

The French company Veolia are building a $2 billion rail system for the Israeli authorities for a light rail transportation project in Jerusalem. This Light Rail Project is being billed to U.S. and European taxpayers.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2rhvjn5.jpg

The path of the light rail incorporates a number of Jewish settlements around East Jerusalem, built on stolen Palestinian land. It ensures the contiguity of these colonies with the central areas of the city and provides them with a vital transport link.

http://i56.tinypic.com/aahxc4.jpg

The project goes from Jerusalem to Ma’aleh Adumim, a large Israeli settlement in the West Bank, and from settlements in the West Bank’s Jordan Valley. The light rail project plays a key role in sustaining the settlements and ensuring they become a permanent fixture upon Palestinian land.

Source: http://current.com/news/92636282_israels-racist-rail-system-palestine-axisoflogic-com.htm



How is it "racist", exactly? Also, it does not run through Ma'ale Adumin (although I wish it would). It's also more completed than shown in that picture. Man, that article is full of holes. Oh, and you can't steal land that was never owned. Or if it was paid for.

[Dr. Evil]

In June 2006, Lt Colonel Ralph Peters wrote an article for the Armed Forces Journal explaining lots of the conflicts on the Middle East were due to badly demarcated borders by European powers. Here is a comparison of what Lt Colonel Peters saw of the 'true' Middle East and what is found today:

Current Middle East

http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/4633/middleeastmap.gif

More Accurate Middle East

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7415/projectednewmiddleeastm.jpg

His original article can be seen here:

http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1833899

To say that it's the European powers in the Middle East is a bit off as it was mostly the British and French. The Italians were in Libya and the Spanish in Morocco, but that was it. Even though the Portuguese had an empire as well, they never had any influence in The Middle East after the 19th century.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Really makes me feel bad that there isn't another Muslim state there. Wish they had more land.

Right...or a Jewish state smack dab in the middle of Europe.

[Midnyte_Sun]

To say that it's the European powers in the Middle East is a bit off as it was mostly the British and French. The Italians were in Libya and the Spanish in Morocco, but that was it. Even though the Portuguese had an empire as well, they never had any influence in The Middle East after the 19th century.

Ok, SOME European Powers...a Eurasian one (Ottomans), and also American.

[Midnyte_Sun]

How is it "racist", exactly?

You can ask the editors of Current.

Also, it does not run through Ma'ale Adumin (although I wish it would).

Which one are you talking about? The now defunct 10 Billion dollar project that would link the Light Rail system through Tel Aviv?

It's also more completed than shown in that picture.

I admit, the article is a little outdated, I was at current dot com and found it.

Oh, and you can't steal land that was never owned. Or if it was paid for.

Hence, our fundamental differences Gammy. You think it's legal to build homes on occupied territory (which put them in danger), I don't.

[Gamma Ray]

Hence, our fundamental differences Gammy. You think it's legal to build homes on occupied territory (which put them in danger), I don't.

Well since you've never actually been to Israel, I will inform you that there are settlements consisting of ramshackle buildings with tiny communities and others that are well established and have thriving communities. Ma'ale Adumim is one of those, Efrat is another. These places will never be conceded. Other smaller communities that are settled just for the sake of having buildings there are, in my opinion, a waste of Israeli time and resources and should be discontinued as any peace agreement would certainly concede those.

And by the way, you think living in settlements puts people in danger? To live in Israel is to live in danger. Aside from the fact that Lebanon has missiles that can reach Eilat (the southernmost city in Israel), there are also thousands of people who are itching to attack, blow-up or destroy Jewish lives, no matter where they are living.

[Gamma Ray]

Right...or a Jewish state smack dab in the middle of Europe.


Right... instead of in its rightful place... :whatever:

I'm sure you'd protest Israel if it was a secluded island.



You can ask the editors of Current.



Which one are you talking about? The now defunct 10 Billion dollar project that would link the Light Rail system through Tel Aviv?



I admit, the article is a little outdated, I was at current dot com and found it.


Makes me wonder why you posted the article to begin with. Oh yeah, because Israel is the devil. I read through some more articles on that site and I thought I was reading The Onion.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Well since you've never actually been to Israel, I will inform you that there are settlements consisting of ramshackle buildings with tiny communities and others that are well established and have thriving communities. Ma'ale Adumim is one of those, Efrat is another. These places will never be conceded.

It's considered illegal under international law according to Fourth Geneva Convention (article 49), which prohibits an occupying power transferring citizens from its own territory to occupied territory. It also deemed illegal by the International Court of Justice and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

And by the way, you think living in settlements puts people in danger? To live in Israel is to live in danger. Aside from the fact that Lebanon has missiles that can reach Eilat (the southernmost city in Israel), there are also thousands of people who are itching to attack, blow-up or destroy Jewish lives, no matter where they are living.

That's like the teapot calling the kettle black.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Right... instead of in its rightful place..

You mean Europe or America where people seem to welcome Israeli settlement?

I read through some more articles on that site and I thought I was reading The Onion.

Current dot com? That is a good website, it has a great cable news channel also. It's Vanguard reporters are known for reporting in places that some journalists don't go because of safety concerns. Riding with Pirates in SE Asia, Visiting North Korea (Clinton had to go save a few of them), videotaping a protest against Israel, displaying videos taken by Palestinians being abused by Israeli settlers.

You know, the kind of news you call fairy tales.

[Gamma Ray]

You mean Europe or America where people seem to welcome Israeli settlement?



No, I mean Israel, where the Jews have been for thousands of years. :doh:



It's considered illegal under international law according to Fourth Geneva Convention (article 49), which prohibits an occupying power transferring citizens from its own territory to occupied territory. It also deemed illegal by the International Court of Justice and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

"One may legitimately support or challenge Israeli settlements in the disputed territories, but they are not illegal, and they have neither the size, the population, nor the placement to seriously impact upon the future status of the disputed territories and their Palestinian population centers."
http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief2-16.htm




That's like the teapot calling the kettle black
How so?

[Gamma Ray]

Before anyone posts that utterly repulsive TIME magazine cover or that pathetic excuse for journalism, I will address it preemptively.

The article:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2015602,00.html

And aside from the obvious (lack of substance, journalistic investigation, etc.), an article arguing said TIME report:
http://www.algemeiner.com/generic.asp?ID=6744



At least they don't even try to mask their antisemitism anymore.

[hippie_hunter]

No, I mean Israel, where the Jews have been for thousands of years. :doh:
After the Romans kicked the Jews out of what is now Israel, Jews were an incredibly small minority.

In 1850, Jews represented 4% of the population while Arabs (both Christian and Muslim) formed 96%. In 1900, Arabs still formed 94% of the population in Palestine. In 1948, when Israel declared independence, Jews still formed a minority 32% of the population. Only more recently have Jews formed a majority of the population in what was the British Mandate of Palestine.

So no, the Jews haven't been there for thousands of years. The only reason why Jews form the majority of the population now is because of immigration, not because they were there for thousands of years. Before Zionism, there barely were any Jews. Before Zionism, there were more Christians in Palestine than Jews.

Modern day Jews really don't have much to do with the ancient Jews who were kicked out thousands of years ago. They're a completely different race. They're a completely different culture. They have different languages. And in the end, the only thing they have in common is the same religion.

[Gamma Ray]

Honestly, I don't think I've read a more misinformed post in this thread. If anything, the Jews living there today are completely SIMILAR to those who lived there years ago.

"The people of modern day Israel share the same language and culture shaped by the Jewish heritage and religion passed through generations starting with the founding father Abraham (ca. 1800 BCE). Thus, Jews have had continuous presence in the land of Israel for the past 3,300 years.

The rule of Israelites in the land of Israel starts with the conquests of Joshua (ca. 1250 BCE). The period from 1000-587 BCE is known as the "Period of the Kings". The most noteworthy kings were King David (1010-970 BCE), who made Jerusalem the Capital of Israel, and his son Solomon (Shlomo, 970-931 BCE), who built the first Temple in Jerusalem as prescribed in the Tanach (Old Testament).

In 587 BCE, Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar's army captured Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and exiled the Jews to Babylon (modern day Iraq).

The year 587 BCE marks a turning point in the history of the region. From this year onwards, the region was ruled or controlled by a succession of superpower empires of the time in the following order: Babylonian, Persian, Greek Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine Empires, Islamic and Christian crusaders, Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire.

The remaining Jewish community moved to northern towns in the Galilee. Around 200 CE the Sanhedrin was moved to Tsippori (Zippori, Sepphoris). The Head of Sanhedrin, Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi (Judah the Prince), compiled the Jewish oral law, Mishna.

After the exile by the Romans, the Jewish people migrated to Europe and North Africa. In the Diaspora (scattered outside of the Land of Israel), they established rich cultural and economic lives, and contributed greatly to the societies where they lived. Yet, they continued their national attachments and prayed to return to Israel through centuries. In the first half of the 20th century there were major waves of immigration of Jews back to Israel from Arab countries and from Europe. During the British rule in Palestine, the Jewish people were subject to great violence and massacres directed by Arab civilians or forces of the neighboring Arab states. During World War II, the Nazi regime in Germany decimated about 6 million Jews creating the great tragedy of The Holocaust."

http://www.science.co.il/israel-history.asp



Now for the science: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100603123707.htm



When the Romans kicked the Jews out of their land they were a minority? No kidding? :o The only reason why there weren't Jews living in Israel is because (a) they didn't have an opportunity and (b) they were already leading good lives in countries they were exiled to. When that all went to hell and there was literally nowhere else to go (nope, not even America opened its doors), the time was right to return. Zionism didn't begin in 1947, or the 1800s. It's a concept that is prevalent through and through in the Jewish faith.


ADDITIONALLY,
So no, the Jews haven't been there for thousands of years. The only reason why Jews form the majority of the population now is because of immigration, not because they were there for thousands of years. Before Zionism, there barely were any Jews. Before Zionism, there were more Christians in Palestine than Jews.

You contradict yourself too many times here. The Jews haven't been there for thousands of years, yet there were "barely any Jews" before [I'm assuming you meant] the MODERN concept of Zionism. So have they been there or not? Jews don't make up any kind of majority in the world (unless it involves Nobel prize winning or something), so stop talking about majorities.



Do some reading and stop trying to alter history:
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/
http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm#From Roman to Ottoman Rule

[hippie_hunter]

Honestly, I don't think I've read a more misinformed post in this thread. If anything, the Jews living there today are completely SIMILAR to those who lived there years ago.




Now for the science: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100603123707.htm



When the Romans kicked the Jews out of their land they were a minority? No kidding? :o The only reason why there weren't Jews living in Israel is because (a) they didn't have an opportunity and (b) they were already leading good lives in countries they were exiled to. When that all went to hell and there was literally nowhere else to go (nope, not even America opened its doors), the time was right to return. Zionism didn't begin in 1947, or the 1800s. It's a concept that is prevalent through and through in the Jewish faith.
The Jews of ancient Palestine were closer to Arabs in appearance while Israelis are white because they immigrated mostly from Europe, spoke Aramaic while Israelis speak modern Hebrew, had a culture that was based on well....thousands of years ago while Israel is a modern Westernized culture

And finally, if you think that majority dictates who owns the land, than you are admitting that Israel owns the land. :whatever:
In some degrees, yes. You can't just kick out millions of Jews from what is now their homes. A lot of which were born in Israel and lived there their entire lives. That would be like kicking out millions of Americans and giving the land back to the Native Americans. The goal of groups such as Hamas to destroy Israel or having a Jewish state in Europe instead is utterly unrealistic. They're there, and it's time for the most extreme critics of Israel to deal with it.

You contradict yourself too many times here. The Jews haven't been there for thousands of years, yet there were "barely any Jews" before [I'm assuming you meant] the MODERN concept of Zionism. So have they been there or not? Jews don't make up any kind of majority in the world (unless it involves Nobel prize winning or something), so stop talking about majorities.
It's not contradicting. There were almost no Jews living in the Palestinian territories until recent history. They were almost non-existent until the modern concept of Zionism really took off. The territory was undeniably a part of the Muslim world until the Western powers dicked around in Middle Eastern politics.

[Gamma Ray]

The Jews of ancient Palestine were closer to Arabs in appearance while Israelis are white because they immigrated mostly from Europe, spoke Aramaic while Israelis speak modern Hebrew, had a culture that was based on well....thousands of years ago while Israel is a modern Westernized culture


In some degrees, yes. You can't just kick out millions of Jews from what is now their homes. A lot of which were born in Israel and lived there their entire lives. That would be like kicking out millions of Americans and giving the land back to the Native Americans. The goal of groups such as Hamas to destroy Israel or having a Jewish state in Europe instead is utterly unrealistic. They're there, and it's time for the most extreme critics of Israel to deal with it.


It's not contradicting. There were almost no Jews living in the Palestinian territories until recent history. They were almost non-existent until the modern concept of Zionism really took off. The territory was undeniably a part of the Muslim world until the Western powers dicked around in Middle Eastern politics.


LMAO! Israelis are white?!!? Are you joking?!?! You'd be hard pressed to distinguish modern Israelis from Arabs, although there are subtle differences. You're also completely IGNORING something called a SEPHARDIC Jew. What is that you ask? Well, I'll let Wikipedia answer for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews

And guess what? They make up....WAIT FOR IT..... That's right! The MAJORITY OF JEWS IN ISRAEL! Oooh, felt so good.

This also responds to your last comment. JEWS LIVED IN ARAB COUNTRIES!! This is not a new concept and any idea that you have of a disturbed political rift is ridiculous!

[hippie_hunter]

LMAO! Israelis are white?!!? Are you joking?!?! You'd be hard pressed to distinguish modern Israelis from Arabs, although there are subtle differences. You're also completely IGNORING something called a SEPHARDIC Jew. What is that you ask? Well, I'll let Wikipedia answer for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews

And guess what? They make up.... that's right! The MAJORITY OF JEWS IN ISRAEL!

This also responds to your last comment. JEWS LIVED IN ARAB COUNTRIES!! This is not a new concept and any idea that you have of a disturbed political rift is ridiculous!

They do not form the majority of Jews in Israel! They form up to 1.5 million of Jews in Israel. Germanic Ashkenazi Jews form up to 4 million of Israel's Jewish population. Sephardic Jews are also Jews whose origins come from the Iberian Peninsula and while they have darker skin, they too are also essentially white.

Jews from the Arab territories are Mizrahi Jews. Yes, I know that there were Jews from Arab territories. Yes, I know they form up to half of Israel's population, but when you have them mingling with the white Jews, guess what, they're going to be of lighter skin. They're adopting more Westernized, white culture.

The fact is that modern Jews have nothing to do with ancient Jews. Just like how most modern cultures have little to do with ancient cultures due to the changes in times.

[Gamma Ray]

That number is skewed. Look at any Israeli numbers. Just because your ideal image of "Jew" or "Israeli" is this:
http://www.spraygraphic.com/storage2/member_files/4517/picture/600_4182500b587e45b30a94a8392ab41c92.JPG
It's actually more like this: http://www.onejerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/dudu-topaz_2.jpg
But as with most every other poster in this thread, you've never actually been to Israel and you probably picture everyone there riding donkeys in a barren desert.

Your light skin, western culture argument is ridiculous. Arabs have "mingled" with light skinned populations for ages. (hi!) (http://www.labnol.org/wp/images/2007/06/green-eye-afghan-girl-national-geographic.jpg)

Again, why don't you read something that I posed instead of just spewing things that you have no backing for? What you're essentially saying is that because Jews don't wear robes and wraps their feet to prevent sand from coming into their shoes, they're not related to their ancient culture.

[Compi716]

Just to throw this out there, the rabbis who began what is now Sephardic Judaism originated in Spain. And in terms of Ashkenaz v. Sephard population in Israel, more Jews are starting to lean toward the Sephard customs, simply because a) They marry someone who is Sephard, or b) It's the Middle East, and that's the culture. The Jews who have lived their forever are Sephard.

How do I know this? Where are my facts and statistics and news/Wikipedia articles? I have none. I know this information for one reason only: I lived there. I can see with my own two eyes how things are run. During Passover in Jerusalem all the bakeries are open, but produce their goods using beans and rice instead of wheat. It's like that all over the country. This is a Sephard custom, and there's a reason why it's done - a significant portion of the people follow Sephardic customs.

Also, modern Judaism is very much like ancient Judaism. Go to the Israel Museum in Jerusalem and check out the 2,000 year old phylacteries. They're nearly identical to what we use today. Don't get me started on religious customs in regards to holidays...the fact that orthodox (both modern and ultra) still follow the Talmud to a "t" is a testament to that.

Jews speaking Aramaic v. modern Hebrew? The two languages are really not that different (I learned both). A different letter here and there, but really pretty similar. Even Biblical Hebrew isn't that different...think of it to Modern Hebrew as Shakespearean English is to Modern English.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Before anyone posts that utterly repulsive TIME magazine cover or that pathetic excuse for journalism, I will address it preemptively.

The article:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2015602,00.html

And aside from the obvious (lack of substance, journalistic investigation, etc.), an article arguing said TIME report:
http://www.algemeiner.com/generic.asp?ID=6744



At least they don't even try to mask their antisemitism anymore.

Coming from someone like you who believes war is the only solution this is rather ironic to me.

[Midnyte_Sun]

No, I mean Israel, where the Jews have been for thousands of years. :doh:

Non Zionist Jews, yes. But you do know that many Jews converted to Christianity and Islam and continued to live in that area as well?

"One may legitimately support or challenge Israeli settlements in the disputed territories, but they are not illegal,

Um, according to international law that Israel pretends to abide by, it is.

How so?

There are many in the Israeli settlements willing to offer their lives to defend their illegal outposts and are itching to attack Palestinians.

[Midnyte_Sun]

They do not form the majority of Jews in Israel! They form up to 1.5 million of Jews in Israel. Germanic Ashkenazi Jews form up to 4 million of Israel's Jewish population. Sephardic Jews are also Jews whose origins come from the Iberian Peninsula and while they have darker skin, they too are also essentially white.

Jews from the Arab territories are Mizrahi Jews. Yes, I know that there were Jews from Arab territories. Yes, I know they form up to half of Israel's population, but when you have them mingling with the white Jews, guess what, they're going to be of lighter skin. They're adopting more Westernized, white culture.

The fact is that modern Jews have nothing to do with ancient Jews. Just like how most modern cultures have little to do with ancient cultures due to the changes in times.

Zionism is also a European concept.

"In the 19th century, a current in Judaism supporting a return to Zion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_to_Zion) grew in popularity,[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-16) particularly in Europe, where anti-semitism and hostility towards Jews were also growing. " - Wiki

Herin lies the other flaw of Gammy's point that the Arabs have always wanted the destruction of Jewry.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Your light skin, western culture argument is ridiculous. Arabs have "mingled" with light skinned populations for ages. (hi!) (http://www.labnol.org/wp/images/2007/06/green-eye-afghan-girl-national-geographic.jpg)


Uh, Gammy, that's not an Arab.

[Gamma Ray]

Wow, so I take it that's the only thing you disagree with me on, then, Sunny?


Anyway, I was contemplating 9/11 and I remembered when the peace loving folks of East Jerusalem were dancing in the streets upon hearing about the death of thousands of Americans. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k
I swear, these people are happier when something bad happens to their "enemy" than when something good happens to them. I'm still amazed by how many Americans feel for their "suffering" considering that they don't give two ****s about America or her people.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Wow, so I take it that's the only thing you disagree with me on, then, Sunny?

I'm not sure what point you are referring to but I disagree with you on the following (you should know this by now):

1. Your stance on continuation of war.
2. Your support for Illegal settlements
3. Your utter denial of Israeli war crimes

Anyway, I was contemplating 9/11 and I remembered when the peace loving folks of East Jerusalem were dancing in the streets upon hearing about the death of thousands of Americans. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k
I swear, these people are happier when something bad happens to their "enemy" than when something good happens to them. I'm still amazed by how many Americans feel for their "suffering" considering that they don't give two ****s about America or her people.

Really? I didn't know people contemplated 9/11 on 9/11. How compassionate of you. As for your Palestinian cheer leading 9/11, it ain't that different from US Media cheerleading during the Bombing of Iraq, or having Israeli children write messages to Lebanese on bombs.

How many brainwashed Israelis cheered the bombing of Lebanon? How many settlers will cheer when Iran is attacked? Two sides of the same coin Gammy...two sides.


BTW, you have not answered my previous questions, would you like me to restate them?

[Gamma Ray]

I'm not sure what point you are referring to but I disagree with you on the following (you should know this by now):

1. Your stance on continuation of war.
2. Your support for Illegal settlements
3. Your utter denial of Israeli war crimes


1. I only believe in war when it is necessary. And yes, it often is in that region.
2. I support settlements because leaving Gaza did nothing expect initiate a stream of attacks on Sderot and other Israeli cities. Until there is a guarantee that the return of land will bring about effective peace (which it won't because Israel is not allowed to exist), I support settlements. And starting the peace talks in the final weeks of a 10-month freeze is absolute ********.
3. I don't deny that Israel is guilty of mistakes. Such is war. Many accusations are eventually disproved, however, so I don't take to heart much of what the media says (like when the NYTimes ran the image of the Israeli soldier beating the Palestinian boy that turned out to actually be an image of an Israeli soldier saving a Jewish boy who was beaten by Palestinians).


As for your Palestinian cheer leading 9/11, it ain't that different from US Media cheerleading during the Bombing of Iraq, or having Israeli children write messages to Lebanese on bombs.

How many brainwashed Israelis cheered the bombing of Lebanon? How many settlers will cheer when Iran is attacked? Two sides of the same coin Gammy...two sides.

Ooh, now I get to throw at you what you throw at me all of the time. Just because one group does the wrong thing, does that give another free reign to do the wrong thing as well? :doh:

Considering how much support Palestine gets from America, these people are frankly sick to have done what they did. America-Iraq and Israel-Lebanon were completely different situations.


BTW, you have not answered my previous questions, would you like me to restate them?

Sure.

[Gamma Ray]

BTW, I really want to see you condemn any evil action of the Palestinians or Lebanese. Condemn the Lebanese initiation of rocket fire on civilian territory in 2006. Condemn at least one rocket attack on Sderot. Condemn the suicide bombings of innocents during the second intifada. Anything??

[Gamma Ray]

The jackass is slandering Israel again. Ahmadinahsjsdlfjk says plan to burn Quarans a "Zionist plot," Israel, its "supporters are on the path to collapse and decline and such desperate acts will not save them."

http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=187716


But he's probably just defending himself from the Zionist threat, right Sunny?

[Midnyte_Sun]

1. I only believe in war when it is necessary. And yes, it often is in that region.
2. I support settlements

What about the illegal settlements in the West Bank that have always historically outnumbered the ones in Gaza?

And starting the peace talks in the final weeks of a 10-month freeze is absolute ********.

Better than starting the peace talks after a spike in Settlement construction.

I don't deny that Israel is guilty of mistakes. Such is war.

What Israeli war crimes do you acknowledge?

Many accusations are eventually disproved, however, so I don't take to heart much of what the media says (like when the NYTimes ran the image of the Israeli soldier beating the Palestinian boy that turned out to actually be an image of an Israeli soldier saving a Jewish boy who was beaten by Palestinians).

Granted, NY Times has had some controversy in their coverage (Arabs also have their gripes) , but what about documented reports from groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch?

Ooh, now I get to throw at you what you throw at me all of the time. Just because one group does the wrong thing, does that give another free reign to do the wrong thing as well? :doh:

I don't think either side sees it that way. To say that America has been an honest and impartial broker of peace is laughable.

Considering how much support Palestine gets from America,

Are you kidding me? The US and European support of Israel towers over Palestinian support. Israeli financial/military support is far above and beyond any other country in the Middle East. Even when the Israelis sunk an American naval vessel they got away with it.

America-Iraq and Israel-Lebanon were completely different situations.

Yet they are the similar in some ways with other conflicts in the region; especially in propaganda. We were told that it was a just war, that they had nuclear weapons, that bombing their civilian infrastructure was okay, that having the media cheerlead the war was a good thing, and that if you didn't support the war, you were unpatriotic.

You and I, and everybody knows that Israel will be the first to cheer when Iran is bombed (regardless of civilian casualties) just like they cheered the bombing of the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon, and Gaza.

[Midnyte_Sun]

BTW, I really want to see you condemn any evil action of the Palestinians or Lebanese. Condemn the Lebanese initiation of rocket fire on civilian territory in 2006. Condemn at least one rocket attack on Sderot. Condemn the suicide bombings of innocents during the second intifada. Anything??

I think its evil and I condemn suicide attacks on civilians by any rebel faction I condemn the use of human shields by the Palestinians and the Israelis. I condemn any rocket attacks in densely populated civilians areas, whether they be in Sderot, or elsewhere.

Now it's time for you to condemn:


Israeli's deliberate use of Human Shields
Israeli's deliberate bombing of civilian infrastructure including bridges and hospitals
Israeli murder of American, Palestinian, and International protestors
Israel's deliberate land grabs in East Jerusalem
Israeli's deliberate ethnic cleansing of Palestinian towns
Israel's historical revisionism claiming that Palestinian Arabs do not exist (which is tantamount to allowing ethnic cleansing)

[Gamma Ray]

I condemn Israel's use of white phosphorus in Gaza and any death of innocents, accidental or otherwise. You are assigning many things that the other side is guilty of to Israel. Human shields? When is that supposed to have happen?

If you want to see historical revisionism, look no further than Palestinian TV. This is what people are watching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeZwn8QVQEo&feature=sub

[Gamma Ray]

The oppression continues as... a new luxury shopping mall opens in Gaza: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF2ouPPTFiA

Shopper: "It's as if there is no siege at all."

[bell110]

I condemn Israel's use of white phosphorus in Gaza and any death of innocents, accidental or otherwise. You are assigning many things that the other side is guilty of to Israel. Human shields? When is that supposed to have happen?

If you want to see historical revisionism, look no further than Palestinian TV. This is what people are watching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeZwn8QVQEo&feature=sub

Could you at least condemn Israel's use of American support and firepower to get what they want?

[Gamma Ray]

???

America supports many nations (I don't care who gets the most so don't bother posting about it). Israel defends itself and has every right to (sick of hearing the contrary - its been done to death and there is no debating Israel's right to exist and defend herself). The fact that America supports its greatest ally (especially in fighting terrorism) is not something to condemn and if you want to condemn anyone, you should condemn your own country, not Israel.

The only thing I will say against Israel in this situation is that they SHOULD get off of America's payroll because they need to be a truly independent state and not America's *****.

[Midnyte_Sun]

I condemn Israel's use of white phosphorus in Gaza and any death of innocents, accidental or otherwise.

Mostly otherwise. White Phosphorus was also used in 2006 in Lebanon. It's interesting to me that you openly admit the use of white phosphorus (which burned children alive), but can be so overtly offended if I make a claim about Israeli war crimes deliberately done to Palestinian children. Such as: dragging them through barbed wire, beating them until their bones break, shooting pregnant mothers, etc.

Israel is not immune from heinous war crimes. Especially when Zionism allows you to commit war crimes and where the law favors the Israeli over the Arab.

Every one of these historical occupying forces has committed war crimes and democide:


The Japanese war crimes against the Chinese, Malays, Filipinos, Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Burmese

The Russians in Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine, Germany, and on their own populations in the Caucasus, Georgia, Chechnya, Turkmenistan, and others

The US in Vietnam, Philipines, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan and against the indigenous in N. America.

The Dutch in Indonesia

The Germans during WWII

The British in India, Afghanistan, America


The list goes on and on. So Gammy what makes Israel so special to be immune from these type of atrocities committed by these so called civilized countries?

You are assigning many things that the other side is guilty of to Israel.
Human shields? When is that supposed to have happen?

Gaza invasion, 2nd Intifada, 1st intifada. Gammy, do I have to do all the work for you? Just type it in a search engine and I get:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/23/gaza-human-shields-claim

acaU4D6dUqU

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3691073,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6432133.stm

The list goes on and on. I don't feel like going through my books to find you some from the 1st intifada, but you get the point.

If you want to see historical revisionism, look no further than Palestinian TV. This is what people are watching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeZwn8QVQEo&feature=sub

Their hatred runs deep, but this is just a tit for tat game now isn't it Gammy?

August 1967. Chief Chaplain of the Armed Forces Shlomo Goren—later Israel’s chief rabbi—leads 50 armed extremists onto Haram al-Sharif. “It is a holy commandment,” Goren said, for Jews to go to the Muslim grounds, which Jews call the Temple Mount. Writing in an Israeli publication, Eti Ronel reports: “Many rabbis, including members of the Council of the Chief Rabbinate, support…Jewish sovereignty” over Haram al-Sharif.

August 21, 1969. Jewish extremists set fire to Al Aqsa, destroying a priceless wood and ivory pulpit sent from Aleppo by the Muslim ruler Saladin. The arson prompts the United Nations Security Council to condemn Israel’s failure to curb terrorist attacks on Islam’s shrine. Four months later (12/19/69) a group of militant Jews storm their way to Haram al-Sharif, in order, they claim, “to conduct Hanukkah prayers.”

March 3, 1971. Gershon Solomon leads Temple Mount Faithful followers onto Haram al-Sharif. After struggling with Palestinian guards, they are expelled. Three years later (3/3/74) Solomon again, with followers, storms the mosque. Again (7/14/78) Solomon leads militant Jews onto the Islamic holy grounds. Palestinians stage protests. Israeli troops hurl tear gas to quell the rioting.

August 10, 1980. Three hundred Gush Emunim fanatics, heavily armed, overcome Palestinian police and storm the grounds, but are later dispersed. A month later (9/15/80) armed Gush Emunim settlers associated with Stanley Goldfoot and the Temple Mount Faithful again force their way onto the mosque grounds. After scuffling with police they are evicted.

April 11, 1982. Alan Goodman, an Israeli citizen with a U.S. passport, marches into Al Aqsa with an M-16 rifle and opens fire on worshippers, killing two Palestinians and wounding others. In November 1997, the Israeli government releases Goodman. Unrepentant, Goodman boasts, “I fulfilled my mission.”

July 25, 1982. Yoel Lerner, a member of the militant Meir Kahane Kach movement, storms the mosque grounds with plans to dynamite and destroy the Dome of the Rock.

March 10, 1983. Armed Gush Emunim fanatics climb walls onto Haram al-Sharif, attempting to overcome security guards and take the mosque by storm. They have in their possession large quantities of explosives, automatic rifles and pistols. Twenty-nine are charged and held for trial.

September 21, 1983. An Israeli court acquits the 29 Jewish terrorists who six months earlier had laid siege on the mosque.

January 27, 1984. In the most ambitious plot to dynamite and destroy the mosque, Jewish terrorists, armed with 250 pounds of explosives, including dozens of grenades, boxes of dynamite and 12 rounds of mortar, attempt to dynamite and destroy the mosque. They are led by Rabbi Moshe Levinger, one of the most militant of Jewish extremists.

1994. The Israelis appoint Meir Davidson, a senior official of Ateret Cohanim, as a municipal adviser on Palestinian properties. This signals the Israeli government will work closely with an organization whose aim is destruction of the mosque.

September 1996. Ateret Cohanim, funded largely through tax-exempt dollars donated by rich American Jews, including Miami millionaire Irving Moskowitz, opened a tunnel—excavated in secret night-time operations—that runs the length of the Al Aqsa complex. The controversial tunnel sparked intense fighting which claimed the lives of 60 Palestinians and 15 Israeli soldiers. Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu proudly visited the tunnel, as have fundamentalist Christian leaders.

October 18, 1998. Gershon Solomon, with followers waving Israeli flags and blowing rams’ horns, mounts a ramp to the mosque grounds. “The time has come to rebuild the Jewish Temple,” said Solomon. To underscore his point, Solomon parked near an Old City gate a flatbed truck carrying a 41—G.H.

Source: http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0300/0003016.html

--

BTW the Gammy what do you think of this shirt? Can I find it on ebay?

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6593/1shot2kills.jpg

[Midnyte_Sun]

I like this red one, what do you think, Gammy?

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/184/shirtset1.jpg

Right shirt text: "Only God Forgives" (Hebrew)

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1804/shirtset2.jpg

Left shirt text: "The smaller - the harder!" (Hebrew). Right shirt text: "Each Arab Mother Should Know That the Fate of Her Son Is Dependent Upon My Hands" (Hebrew)

[Compi716]

I don't understand, are those shirts supposed to prove a point? So you found images from the Israeli version of bustedtees.com...I guess that means all Israelis are pure evil baby killers. And those guys are definitely soldiers, because I can tell by that military belt! Never mind the fact that it's the same guy in ever pictures...

Don't worry, though. I'm not going to bother finding pictures pro-Palestine shirts to post (though I'm sure Gamma Ray will). It's counterproductive to the idea of "debate." Once again, Midnyte, you unabashedly blast one side of the argument while being so far to the other side that there's no room for middle ground. If Gamma Ray is all the way at the right, you're right across on the left.

[Gamma Ray]

So you post articles about "human shields" that are unsubstantiated (read: merely accusative) and come from the accounts of three people from a group who is known to lie to get international support and attention and you expect me to condemn Israel for that? You must be kidding.

The IDF is probably the most careful army in the world (they have to be or else they get lambasted - oh wait, they are no matter what they do). If these incidents did occur, and I highly doubt their validity, these soldiers were acting of their own will (read: not something they are trained to do) and would be reprimanded by Israel. Unlike Hamas who would probably award a citizen for killing a Jewish baby, which in fact they did, mere days ago when candy was handed out in honor of the terrorist who killed a pregnant woman.


I also noticed your list of attacks on the mosque went up to 1998. I guess Israel's security has paid off (and returned nothing to them, obviously). The example I gave you is a modern day clip. The Arabs have made no progress since '98, whereas Israel has conceded comparably ENORMOUS amounts. It's funny that you don't ever mention that, though. You're a joke, really.


As for the shirts? Petty and pathetic. The opinions and choices of a few army kids does not represent those of the IDF or Israel. I'm sure anyone who wore those shirts would **** their paints in combat.

[Midnyte_Sun]

I don't understand, are those shirts supposed to prove a point? So you found images from the Israeli version of bustedtees.com...I guess that means all Israelis are pure evil baby killers. And those guys are definitely soldiers, because I can tell by that military belt! Never mind the fact that it's the same guy in ever pictures...

Don't worry, though. I'm not going to bother finding pictures pro-Palestine shirts to post (though I'm sure Gamma Ray will). It's counterproductive to the idea of "debate." Once again, Midnyte, you unabashedly blast one side of the argument while being so far to the other side that there's no room for middle ground. If Gamma Ray is all the way at the right, you're right across on the left.

Compi, I've hardly seen you ever critical of Gamma here and I never said that this reflects all Israelis. Had you actually read my post you would know it's referring to the Israeli war crimes (ie. shooting pregnant mothers, dragging children through barbed wire, breaking their bones so they don't throw stones, etc). Any IDF soldier who wears this should be ashamed of themselves.

[Midnyte_Sun]

So you post articles about "human shields" that are unsubstantiated (read: merely accusative) and come from the accounts of three people from a group who is known to lie to get international support and attention and you expect me to condemn Israel for that? You must be kidding.

White Phosphorus was reported by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch from 1st hand accounts, just like these people who were giving their accounts of Israeli human shields. You're a bag of hypocrisy Gamma. You accept one war crime, but negate the other on the same methodology.

The IDF is probably the most careful army in the world (they have to be or else they get lambasted - oh wait, they are no matter what they do).

They do get lambasted by the international community for their heavy handed practices in Gaza and Lebanon. Destroying whole towns, hospitals, infrastructure, and using human shields. Your eyes and ears are just blind and deaf to them.

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5506/dailymailhumanshield.jpg

Source: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story12098.html

If these incidents did occur, and I highly doubt their validity, these soldiers were acting of their own will (read: not something they are trained to do) and would be reprimanded by Israel. Unlike Hamas who would probably award a citizen for killing a Jewish baby, which in fact they did, mere days ago when candy was handed out in honor of the terrorist who killed a pregnant woman.

So you want to compare yourself to Hamas? That's a great comparison. IDF take pictures next to dead Palestinians as if they are gleeing on their trophies. IDF soldiers are given lenient sentences for killing Palestinians. All of this has been documented by Human Rights organizations and even Israeli reporters who interviewed former Israeli soldiers.

I also noticed your list of attacks on the mosque went up to 1998. I guess Israel's security has paid off (and returned nothing to them, obviously). The example I gave you is a modern day clip. The Arabs have made no progress since '98, whereas Israel has conceded comparably ENORMOUS amounts. It's funny that you don't ever mention that, though. You're a joke, really.

It's an older article made to prove a point on how the religious right (who also run the country) have tried for decades to destroy the 3rd most sacred site for Muslims. Do you want articles on 'FRESH" religious persecution? I'm sure I could find some.


As for the shirts? Petty and pathetic. The opinions and choices of a few army kids does not represent those of the IDF or Israel. I'm sure anyone who wore those shirts would **** their paints in combat.

If a shirt created BY Israeli soldiers FOR Israeli soldiers does not represent them then why did they make it? I mean they could have chosen a 1000 other designs to use to show pride in their occupying prowess but they chose instead to put a cross hair on a pregnant woman and a stone throwing Palestinian kid.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israelis using Palestinians has human shields to stop Palestinian stoning Israeli Jeeps:

tomdEkOgdKU

Israelis Shoot a Handcuffed Palestinian with a Rubber Bullet for no Apparent Reason

vaqIgIzJkKE

[Gamma Ray]

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=188206

Hamas launched phosphorus shells into Israel. Can't wait to hear your response to that one.

I'm sure all of the Human Rights organizations will be all over this one as well. Right? Right....?

[Midnyte_Sun]

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=188206

Hamas launched phosphorus shells into Israel. Can't wait to hear your response to that one.

I'm sure all of the Human Rights organizations will be all over this one as well. Right? Right....?

Tit for tat? Also one has to wonder if it is the same weapons grade white phosphorus used by the Israelis, and if it is where are they getting it from? It certainly can't be from the US.

[Gamma Ray]

Tit for tat? Also one has to wonder if it is the same weapons grade white phosphorus used by the Israelis, and if it is where are they getting it from? It certainly can't be from the US.

Ahh, so once again the true you comes out. You don't actually care about human rights unless it's something Israel does. When Hamas fires phosphorus bombs it's okay, though.

Let me just set this straight for everyone (even though it's only you and I who seem to frequent this thread):

1. Sunny supports Palestinian celebrations on 9/11 as well as celebrations of the murders of pregnant women.

2. Sunny supports human rights violators, as long as they were only doing it for payback.

3. Sunny says that the Jews have no historical right to Israel.


This is probably my last post in this thread. We're talking in circles and arguing with someone who supports terrorism is a waste of time.

[Midnyte_Sun]

I know you normally ignore, and most likely do not view any of the videos I post, but you should watch the last video I posted. It's obvious was the IDF soldier is doing to that Palestinian. He shot him at close range, with his hands tied behind his back (and blindfolded), on his legs.

Now this seems brutal, but the methodology is simple. It was well documented by Noam Chomsky (a well known Anti-Zionist Jew) that IDF can deliberately harass, beat up Palestinians, including shooting them at point blank with steel centered rubber bullets to deter them from protesting the occupation. There has been many accounts by Israelis themselves that they were told to beat and break the bones of Palestinian children. A lot of these accounts you won't find on the internet because they occurred during the 1st intifada.

I have NO IDEA how you and Compi, and other Zionists can support Occupation and Colonialization after having your own families live through the same, if not worse occupation and oppression in Europe.

[Schlosser85]

Saying that criticizing some of the IDF's harsher tactics=supporting terrorism is completely and utterly ignorant.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Ahh, so once again the true you comes out. You don't actually care about human rights unless it's something Israel does. When Hamas fires phosphorus bombs it's okay, though.

When did I say it was okay? I was just questioning the use of Phosphorous. I'm not a chemistry major, but I'm sure there is a difference between weapons grade white phosphorus and regular phosphorous.

1. Sunny supports Palestinian celebrations on 9/11 as well as celebrations of the murders of pregnant women.

No I said if you look on the Israeli side, they celebrating the bombing of Lebanon and Gaza. So your argument is null and void.

Sunny supports human rights violators, as long as they were only doing it for payback.

I reported it because you asked me to show you documented accounts of Israelis using Palestinian as human shields and other atrocites. I've actually documented it before when you and others asked me months ago but you dismissed them all as fairy tales, including the books.

3. Sunny says that the Jews have no historical right to Israel.

As I have said countless times before, Israel can take all of British Palestine for all I care, so long as they stop their apartheid policies and drop the rediculous notion that Palestinians don't exist.

This is probably my last post in this thread. We're talking in circles and arguing with someone who supports terrorism is a waste of time.

You must be getting desparate because you are now using the lamest excuse in the book: Running away and calling your fellow Hype member a terrorist with the most widest generalization known to man: I support Palestinian justice.

[Midnyte_Sun]

The oppression continues as... a new luxury shopping mall opens in Gaza: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF2ouPPTFiA

Shopper: "It's as if there is no siege at all."

What do you care, the IDF might bulldoze and bomb it in their next round of fighting. Besides, that's like saying there is a mall close to Flint Michigan so therefore Flint Michigan must actually mean that the economy is doing great!

They built a giant shopping mall in Kabul Afghanistan also. It still doesn't change the fact that most of the population makes less than 3 dollars a day and are constantly at risk from kidnappings, robbery, errant air strikes, Blackwater shoot and run policies, and rebel bombings.

[bell110]

???

America supports many nations (I don't care who gets the most so don't bother posting about it). Israel defends itself and has every right to (sick of hearing the contrary - its been done to death and there is no debating Israel's right to exist and defend herself). The fact that America supports its greatest ally (especially in fighting terrorism) is not something to condemn and if you want to condemn anyone, you should condemn your own country, not Israel.

The only thing I will say against Israel in this situation is that they SHOULD get off of America's payroll because they need to be a truly independent state and not America's *****.

I do condemn America. Our support of Israel is this country's greatest mistake. America supports many nations, even some they shouldn't. Palistinians have the right to defend themselves as well. Unfortunately, they don't have the benefit of American support and firepower.

No, WE need to stop being Israel's *****.

3. Sunny says that the Jews have no historical right to Israel.

They DON'T have a historical right to Israel, and that is the problem. Just because your ancestors lived on the land 2000 years ago, does NOT mean you get to muscle your way back in and reclaim it, and then CRY when people fight back. And all because their "God" said it belongs to them.

[Compi716]

They DON'T have a historical right to Israel, and that is the problem. Just because your ancestors lived on the land 2000 years ago, does NOT mean you get to muscle your way back in and reclaim it, and then CRY when people fight back. And all because their "God" said it belongs to them.
So most of the Jews get kicked out and their "right to the land" is thrown out the window. Palestinians get kicked out and they still have a claim to their "right to the land." Jews try to take back what was once theirs and they're "muscl[ing their] way back in," and when Palestinians try to take back what's theirs, it's perfectly fine. Double standards are just great.

Now if you suggested that the settlements be ceased, or that the there be two states, I wouldn't pay any mind to this post. But blatantly disregarding any "right" to the land on one party is equally as bad as saying that the Palestinian's haven't any "right" to the land, either.

[Midnyte_Sun]

So most of the Jews get kicked out and their "right to the land" is thrown out the window. Palestinians get kicked out and they still have a claim to their "right to the land." Jews try to take back what was once theirs and they're "muscl[ing their] way back in," and when Palestinians try to take back what's theirs, it's perfectly fine. Double standards are just great.

Now if you suggested that the settlements be ceased, or that the there be two states, I wouldn't pay any mind to this post. But blatantly disregarding any "right" to the land on one party is equally as bad as saying that the Palestinian's haven't any "right" to the land, either.

IMO, Bell is the Yang to Gammy's Yin. Gammy thinks Palestinians don't exist and therefore should be forcibly removed from their lands to make room for Jewish ones. Bell thinks Jews lost that land a long time ago and the Jews of Europe don't deserve colonizing Palestine; therefore, should all go back to their lost homes in Europe.

My opinion, Israel has a right to exist and the Palestinians are a part of that existence.

Should the peace talks continue to fail and Israel continues this path, it will just lead to more bloodshed for the entire region. History will attest that unless the Israelis make peace with their neighbors or destroy and/or subjugate all their neighbors, this war will have no end.

I can't think of another alternative option that will result in long-lasting peace.

[bell110]

So most of the Jews get kicked out and their "right to the land" is thrown out the window. Palestinians get kicked out and they still have a claim to their "right to the land." Jews try to take back what was once theirs and they're "muscl[ing their] way back in," and when Palestinians try to take back what's theirs, it's perfectly fine. Double standards are just great.

Now if you suggested that the settlements be ceased, or that the there be two states, I wouldn't pay any mind to this post. But blatantly disregarding any "right" to the land on one party is equally as bad as saying that the Palestinian's haven't any "right" to the land, either.

Notice I said ancestors. Yes, after 2000 years, you no longer have a right. It's a shame they were kick out, but aside from inventing a time machine, there is nothing we can do. The Palestinians who were kick off are alive and well and rightfully pissed off. To paraphrase Chris Rock, I don't agree with them lobbing bombs at Israel, but I understand.

It would be nice if the made a two state solution. But it doesn't look like it's going to happen anytime soon, regardless of what I suggest. But when it comes down to it, I can't, in good conscience, support Israel because I feel they are blatently in the wrong. And normally, I'd say let them duke it out for themselves, but Israel has had decades of support which gives them an unfair advantage.

What makes me angry about the situation is A) America's support of Israel, among other things, is part of the reason terrorist want to attack us. And B) A lot of Americans unyielding and blind support of Israel. The Libertarian in me believes we should not interfere with other countries problems, that includes Israel.

[Midnyte_Sun]

My question is how the US thinks peace can be achieved in this region, (land issues addressed), while Israeli settlements are still scheduled to continue being built. That's like saying you want to negotiate who gets a certain part of a pie, while one of the parties has already started eating it.

[Midnyte_Sun]

UN Investigation on Flotilla raid sites Israel broke the law

Its report said the action by commandos, which left nine dead, was "disproportionate" and "betrayed an unacceptable level of brutality".

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11393836

[Midnyte_Sun]

Read or skim through the 56 page report here:

Source: http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf

Quote:

"170. The circumstances of the killing of at least six of the passengers were in a manner
consistent with an extra-legal, arbitrary and summary execution. Furkan Doğan and İbrahim
Bilgen were shot at near range while the victims were lying injured on the top deck. Cevdet
Kiliçlar, Cengiz Akyüz, Cengiz Songür and Çetin Topçuoğlu were shot on the bridge deck
while not participating in activities that represented a threat to any Israeli soldier. In these
instances and possibly other killings on the Mavi Marmara, Israeli forces carried out extralegal,
arbitrary and summary executions prohibited by international human rights law,
specifically article 6 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.80"

[bell110]

Is anyone really surprised?

[Midnyte_Sun]

Is anyone really surprised?

I'm just surprised that Israels gets away with war crimes almost ALL the time.

[Midnyte_Sun]

'Ehud Barak says West Bank settlement deal has 50-50 chance'

Israel's 10-month freeze on West Bank settlement-building expires at midnight local time on Sunday (2200 GMT). The moratorium freeze has never applied to East Jerusalem settlements.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11413138

[Kelly]

If the settlements do not stop, there is no need in moving on with the talks.... that is the catalyst to getting these talks to have any kind of success.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Our government is apparently against illegal settlements yet it does nothing substantial to curb them?

Since the US did nothing to stop them building in the first place, it should be responsible in compensating the contractors for their losses and have them dismantled.

[Kelly]

Our government? as in the US?

Why is the US responsible, its not our country...

If anyone is responsible it is the UN for not stepping in...hell they don't listen to the US any other time, why should they have listened to the US and Israel this time?

[Midnyte_Sun]

Our government? as in the US?

Why is the US responsible, its not our country...

Because we give it an average of $7 million per day, and since its creation, we have given more U.S. funds to Israel than to any other nation? Obviously we have a lot invested in this powder keg.

If anyone is responsible it is the UN for not stepping in...hell they don't listen to the US any other time, why should they have listened to the US and Israel this time?

America used its veto '32 times to shield Israel from critical UN draft resolutions between 1972 and 1997.' One of them was a resolution that 'affirmed the rights of the Palestinians and established provisions for Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories as embodied in previous General Assembly resolutions.Nonetheless, Washington killed this international effort to end Israel’s occupation of Palestinian lands.' (Source: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/p-neff-veto.html )

Having the US an honest broker for peace would be the quickest way in resolving this conflict. Right now, the fox is guarding the chicken coup.

[Kelly]

Settlement stopping will be the biggest catalyst, and the US has that on the table as something that must happen. It is up to Israel now, not the US.

[Midnyte_Sun]

US also stated that settlement building in East Jerusalem should stop as well, but look where that got them.

[DACrowe]

King Abdullah II of Jordan was on, of all places, The Daily Show last week. He gave a very interesting interview about the region.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-23-2010/king-abdullah-ii-of-jordan

He notes how unfortunate it is that the settlements of Sept. 30 have become the real deadline and focus of the negotiations right now (as opposed to a two-state solution). What is more interesting is that he says if negotiations breakdown on/after the 30th due to the settlements, we can expect to see a war in the Mid-East related to the situation by the end of THIS year. And most likely future wars in the region, possibly including Iran, will also come out due to the breakdown with US involvement in the several years of the near future.

Very interesting, if depressing stuff to listen to. :(

[Marx]

According to the AP, the Israel settlement freeze has ended and construction has already begun again in the West Bank.

[Dr. Evil]

King Abdullah II of Jordan was on, of all places, The Daily Show last week. He gave a very interesting interview about the region.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-23-2010/king-abdullah-ii-of-jordan

He notes how unfortunate it is that the settlements of Sept. 30 have become the real deadline and focus of the negotiations right now (as opposed to a two-state solution). What is more interesting is that he says if negotiations breakdown on/after the 30th due to the settlements, we can expect to see a war in the Mid-East related to the situation by the end of THIS year. And most likely future wars in the region, possibly including Iran, will also come out due to the breakdown with US involvement in the several years of the near future.

Very interesting, if depressing stuff to listen to. :(

Meanwhile, Europe sits in a corner nearby sucking on its thumb.

[Kelly]

King Abdullah II of Jordan was on, of all places, The Daily Show last week. He gave a very interesting interview about the region.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-23-2010/king-abdullah-ii-of-jordan

He notes how unfortunate it is that the settlements of Sept. 30 have become the real deadline and focus of the negotiations right now (as opposed to a two-state solution). What is more interesting is that he says if negotiations breakdown on/after the 30th due to the settlements, we can expect to see a war in the Mid-East related to the situation by the end of THIS year. And most likely future wars in the region, possibly including Iran, will also come out due to the breakdown with US involvement in the several years of the near future.

Very interesting, if depressing stuff to listen to. :(

His wife was on This Week on ABC yesterday morning....it was a very good interview....

[Dr. Evil]

Ozzy Osbourne to perform in Israel:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100927/ap_on_en_mu/ml_israel_ozzy_osbourne

[Marx]

Ozzy Osbourne to perform in Israel:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100927/ap_on_en_mu/ml_israel_ozzy_osbourne

Oh my...

[Kelly]

Sharon Osbourne is Jewish....

[Dr. Evil]

Does Ozzie still bite the heads off bats anymore? And Korn is still performing? The hell?

[Kelly]

Does Ozzie still bite the heads off bats anymore? And Korn is still performing? The hell?

I don't think so, I think he's an animal lover now...

[Marx]

Does Ozzie still bite the heads off bats anymore? And Korn is still performing? The hell?

I :hrt: Ozzy and Korn.

[Dr. Evil]

I :hrt: Ozzy and Korn.

They don't have the same original lineup anymore do they? I know it was Fieldy, Munky, Head and Jonathan Davis.

[bell110]

Head and the drummer, David Salveria, doesn't play for them anymore.

[bell110]

Sharon Osbourne is Jewish....

Is she? Hmmm.

I don't think so, I think he's an animal lover now...


He's a born again Christian. He's just happy he's not dead yet.

[Kelly]

Is she? Hmmm.




He's a born again Christian. He's just happy he's not dead yet.

The guy is like petrified wood....lmao, he'll be around forever.

[Dr. Evil]

If years of drugs didn't kill Ozzie, nothing will.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Moratorium ends, Israel continues colonization of West Bank

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2037/49266031westbank464.gif

Some Facts

62% under full Israeli control. This area contains all Israeli settlements, roads used by settlers, buffer zones and almost all of the Jordan Valley

38% under Palestinian civil control. In more than half of this, Israel has security control

There are 149 settlements and 100 outposts (settlements not authorised by Israel)

Population: 2.4 million Palestinians, 500,000 Jewish or Israeli settlers

[Jimbo]

Looks like the Israeli supreme court has decided to honor pre 1948 Jewish property deeds in east Jerusalem Based on the logic of this opinion, wouldn't the Israeli Supreme Court be required to enforce a right of return for Palestinians who lost their homes to Israelis in 1948 and on?

[hippie_hunter]

I'm just surprised that Israels gets away with war crimes almost ALL the time.

Why? People with even worse war crimes such as the Sudan in Darfur, the Russians in Georgia, both the Sri Lankan government and Tamil rebels during the Sri Lankan civil war, the Allied Powers in World War II, get away with it.

It's no surprise that the Israelis get away with war crimes when the entire system is completely ineffective to begin with.

[bell110]

The problem with Israeli war crimes is that WE support them. We speak out about the other war crimes, but accept Israel's.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Why?

The UN has it's purposes, but it fails it global security which is largely because some of the permanent members of the UN security council are accused of war crimes: (China, Russia, and the United States)

It doesn't bother you that we pride ourselves over our freedom and our values when in this case (Israel/Palestine) we are helping the ethnic cleansing of people in one of the most hotly contested, volatile regions of the world?

When the Sudanese began forcing indigenous off their land, (evicting entire villages), the US and UN imposed sanctions on the government of Sudan. They didn't get away with it. As for Russia and Georgia, Russia has veto power and will neuter any acts by the UN to monitor the situation there with peacekeeping forces or otherwise. The Tamil struggle was an on and off again struggle for independence, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been raging for over 50 years and has led to acts of global terrorism against us and made the region even more volatile. I don't think its fair to compare a local civil war with a region that is going through modern day colonization.

the Allied Powers in World War II, get away with it. It's no surprise that the Israelis get away with war crimes when the entire system is completely ineffective to begin with.

Well the UN was founded after WWII, spearheaded by some of the countries that allowed this colonization to take place, so this I can agree with .

[Midnyte_Sun]

Method in Israel's Madness

The method in Israel's madness
By Pepe Escobar

Why would Israel, in a deliberate and methodical operation planned over a week in advance - according to statements by senior Israeli military commanders made in Hebrew-language media days before the attack - target an unarmed ship on a humanitarian mission flying the flag of Comoros? (Unlike Turkey, Comoros is a party of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, which has jurisdiction over war crimes committed on vessels of member states.)

Why would Israeli commandos shoot nine unarmed activists dead with nine millimeter bullets at close range, between the eyes, in the top of the head, in the back of the head, in the chest, in the back, and in the legs - including an American citizen? (The final death toll may be 15, as six activists are still missing; Israeli army radio reported 16 dead early last Monday when the attack took place on the Mavi Marmara, a part of the Free Gaza flotilla.)

How could Israel think it would get away with it by censoring video and photos - and then getting away with it all over again by refusing an international, independent commission to investigate the incident and subsequent cover-up?

Why, geopolitically, would Israel declare war on the de facto international community - from Muslim nations to North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) member-countries to global public opinion?

Is this merely a case of a "dysfunctional government", as Bradley Burston wrote in the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz. And strategically speaking, is there any method behind the madness? Or is the method actually the madness?

Be afraid, be very afraid

There may be a very simple answer to all these questions: fear.

Let's survey Israel's possible motivations. A key Israeli motive to attack the humanitarian flotilla was to send a "signal" to Turkey about the Brazil and Turkey-mediated Iran nuclear fuel-swap deal - as its success pre-empted Israel's pleas for a military strike on Tehran's nuclear facilities. Israel wants conflict between Washington and Tehran - and that means using the Israel lobby in Washington to sabotage US President Barack Obama's half-hearted attempts at finding any sort of agreement with Tehran over its uranium-enrichment program.

Israel wants a weak Turkey - out of the loop both in the Middle East and the European Union (EU). Turkey is an emerging, key regional power now with good, stable relations with its neighbors. Turkey is key for the US: 70% of all supplies for US troops in Iraq go through the Incirlik base in Turkey. Turkey has troops fighting the US war in Afghanistan. Not to mention that Turkey - in Obama's own terms - represents the key bridge between the West and the Muslim world.

The White House gave a wimpy response, "The United States deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries sustained and is currently working to understand the circumstances surrounding this tragedy." This was also Washington's signal to Turkey that the Brazil-Turkey mediation on the Iran nuclear fuel swap deal was not exactly welcome.

Iran agreed last month with the leaders of Brazil and Turkey to send most of its low-enriched uranium to Turkey to be held in escrow pending delivery of fuel rods for the Tehran Research Reactor.

As much as Israel wants Turkey immersed in deep trouble with both Syria and Greece, and fighting a nasty internal Kurdish problem, Ankara is not exactly trembling because of Israel's "message". In terms of conventional military strength, Turkey is ahead of Israel itself; and moreover it is a very important US NATO ally.

Another key Israeli motive was to undermine and in fact abort any possibility of meaningful peaceful negotiations with the Palestinians and the Syrians - and to cut Turkey from the loop. Turkey is very much involved in the Palestinian tragedy. It is trying hard to breach the gap between Fatah and Hamas. A key Israeli aim appears to be to sabotage any Turkish-led peace initiative to solve the Palestinian problem that includes the essential provision of a fully denuclearized Middle East - anathema to (undeclared) nuclear power Israel.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2037/49266031westbank464.gif

To round it all up, there is the crucial element of fear itself. As the once-fabled Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) have struggled in battles with Hezbollah in Lebanon in 2006 and Hamas in Gaza in 2008, they have had to come to grips with the fact that their tanks are now vulnerable to Russian-made rocket-propelled grenades; their ships are now vulnerable to Hezbollah's made in China missiles; and their planes will soon be vulnerable to Russian S-300 surface-to-air missiles.

The new axis in town

Iraqi Kurdistan is now virtually independent - according to Washington's designs. Israel is robustly active everywhere in Iraqi Kurdistan. At the same time, the US actively supports the Iraq-based Kurdish Workers' Party separatists in eastern Anatolia as well as Party of Free Life of Kurdistan (PJAK) separatists in Iran and Kurdish separatists in Syria. The Turkish military spent no time analyzing these crucial developments. Their conclusion: NATO is not exactly a panacea. We must focus on the Middle East.

And this has led to the ultimate Israeli nightmare. The new key axis in the Middle East is Turkey, Iran and Syria. It used to be only Iran and Syria. Its historical legitimacy simply cannot be questioned, as it unites Shi'ite Iran, secular Syria and post-Ottoman Sunni Turkey.

There are many fascinating side-effects of this cross-fertilization - such as more than a million Iraqis, many of them very well educated, finding a new life in Syria. But the most remarkable effect of this axis is that it has smashed the same old divide-and-rule logic Western colonialism has been imposing on the Middle East for more than a century. Turkey's destiny may not be firmly attached to a fearful Europe that really does not want to embrace it after all; Turkey is to become once again a leader of the Muslim world.

Life for the new axis won't be easy. United States covert operations have tried to destabilize Syrian President Bashar al-Assad - to no avail. The same for US Central Intelligence Agency black ops in Sistan-Balochistan province in southeast Iran, as a means to destabilize the regime in Tehran. And the same for shady covert ops meant to bring a new military dictatorship in Turkey. But while US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton perfects her vociferousness, Assad, Hezbollah's Hassan Nasrallah and Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad got together this February in Syria and advanced their partnership.

Crucially, Russia immediately stepped in to fill the US-provoked void. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has been to Ankara and Damascus and has positioned himself in favor of full reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas and a fully functional Palestinian state side-by-side with Israel.

Even US Central Command commander General David “I'm always positioning myself to 2012” Petraeus has been forced to publicly admit that US strategic ally Israel - because of the non-stop colonization of Palestine and the blockade it is enforcing in Gaza - has become an immense burden for US strategic designs.

Russia on the other hand supports the new Turkey, Syria and Iran politico-economic axis. Visa-free travel between Ankara and Moscow is now on. Russia's Rosatom and Atomstroyexport are finishing Iran's Bushehr nuclear power station this August; are discussing the building of other plants; and have clinched a Turkish nuclear power station deal worth US$20 billion (Syria is also interested). Stroitransgaz and Gazprom will bring Syrian gas to Lebanon - as Israel prevents Lebanon from exploiting its considerable offshore reserves. Russia is on a roll. Tehran will soon receive its already paid-for S-300 missiles. And Syria will soon get a new naval base.

In Pipelineistan, Russia and Turkey are now brothers in arms. Russia will build a crucial Samsun-Ceyhan pipeline to bring Russian oil from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean. Moreover, Turkey is about to join the Russian South Stream gas pipeline - and that means a direct blow to the troubled US/EU-supported Nabucco.

Russia - just like Turkey - also wants a fully denuclearized Middle East, which implies a non-nuclear Israel. This will be discussed at the United Nations' International Atomic Energy Agency.

Thus, essentially, Israel fears the new Turkey, Syria and Iran as much as it fears Russian support for it. A new Middle East is being born - and there seems to be only one place for Israel: isolation.

Israel's "mad dog" strategy - conceived by former military leader Moshe Dayan - is not exactly an exercise in fitting in. Even centrist Middle East analyst Anthony Cordesman, an establishment icon at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, wrote an essay under the title "Israel as a Strategic Liability?"

Big Brother Washington may be - forever - blind to it; but if you are a state and your strategy is to configure yourself as South Africa at the twilight of apartheid - by the way, at the time Israel was trying to sell nuclear weapons to South Africa - method is the last thing to be found in your madness.

Pepe Escobar is the author of Globalistan: How the Globalized World is Dissolving into Liquid War (Nimble Books, 2007) and Red Zone Blues: a snapshot of Baghdad during the surge. His new book, just out, is 'Obama does Globalistan' (Nimble Books, 2009).

Source: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LF09Ak01.html

[hippie_hunter]

The UN has it's purposes, but it fails it global security which is largely because some of the permanent members of the UN security council are accused of war crimes: (China, Russia, and the United States)

It doesn't bother you that we pride ourselves over our freedom and our values when in this case (Israel/Palestine) we are helping the ethnic cleansing of people in one of the most hotly contested, volatile regions of the world?

When the Sudanese began forcing indigenous off their land, (evicting entire villages), the US and UN imposed sanctions on the government of Sudan. They didn't get away with it. As for Russia and Georgia, Russia has veto power and will neuter any acts by the UN to monitor the situation there with peacekeeping forces or otherwise. The Tamil struggle was an on and off again struggle for independence, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been raging for over 50 years and has led to acts of global terrorism against us and made the region even more volatile. I don't think its fair to compare a local civil war with a region that is going through modern day colonization.



Well the UN was founded after WWII, spearheaded by some of the countries that allowed this colonization to take place, so this I can agree with .

I'm just saying why are you surprised? I'm not saying that you shouldn't be appauled. But surprised? It isn't a surprise since pretty much everyone gets away with war crimes, even with sanctions and whatnot imposed.

[Midnyte_Sun]

I'm just saying why are you surprised? I'm not saying that you shouldn't be appauled. But surprised? It isn't a surprise since pretty much everyone gets away with war crimes, even with sanctions and whatnot imposed.

Well the double standards is what surprises me. On one side we claim we are for peace in the region yet we aren't willing to punish the side that is illegally taking the land and still getting US military and economic aid.

[Midnyte_Sun]

"Palestinians issue talks threat"

"The leadership confirms that the resumption of talks requires tangible steps, the first of them a freeze on settlements," said senior Palestinian official Yasser Abed Rabbo.

Meanwhile, Israel refused to extend a 10-month ban on settlement building in the West Bank which expired last Sunday. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said a further freeze could fracture his right-wing coalition government, which is dominated by pro-settlement parties, including his own Likud bloc.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11459399

[Kelly]

Wow, surprise...............surprise.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Two Israeli troops guilty of using human shield in Gaza

The soldiers were found guilty of reckless endangerment and conduct unbecoming for forcing the nine-year-old boy to check suspected booby-traps. Some 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed during the 22-day fighting.

Read: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11462635

[Marx]

Two Israeli troops guilty of using human shield in Gaza

The soldiers were found guilty of reckless endangerment and conduct unbecoming for forcing the nine-year-old boy to check suspected booby-traps. Some 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed during the 22-day fighting.

Read: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11462635

Wow...

[Gamma Ray]

The elephants in the room, 2010 edition
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/10/elephants-in-room-2010-edition.html
Over the years, I have been publishing ever-expanding lists of the "elephants in the room" that would make it impossible to have a real peace. Here they are, updated with more elephants than ever:

Elephant 1: Hamas controls Gaza

Every peace plan includes Gaza in a Palestinian Arab state, and none of them has any provision on how to handle the fact that Gaza is a terrorist haven, in much worse shape since Israel uprooted the settlements there, controlled by a terrorist group that is consistently and wholeheartedly against Israel's existence. Peace is impossible with this elephant, so it is easier to pretend it isn't there. (See also Elephant 11.)

Elephant 2: Palestinian Arabs elected a terror government

In the only fair, democratic elections in the territories, the Hamas terrorists were chosen by the people. Poll after poll shows that Palestinian Arabs support terror in Israel itself. The elections proved that the conventional wisdom was wrong - and the conventional wisdom proceeded to ignore it.

Elephant 3: The current PA government was not elected

This corollary to Elephant 2 means that the current people negotiating for the Palestinian Arabs do not represent the people. Even if they sound moderate or compromising, they have no mandate. The current PA president is well past his term of office, and the current prime minister was never elected (in fact, he received a tiny percentage of the vote when he did run for election.) Negotiating with the PA is, literally, meaningless.


Similarly, the unelected PLO is the real power behind the PA. The PA officially reports to the PLO, and all negotiations are done by the autocratic, Fatah-dominated PLO, not the PA.
Elephant 4: The current PA government has almost no power - and no respect

Outside of Ramallah, the Fayyad/Abbas government has little popular support and little power. Hamas is a very real threat to the PA in the West Bank and is quietly building its base. The attitudes that forced the PA to abandon Gaza - a lack of passion by people for its positions - could very well play out in the West Bank as well.


Elephant 5: The PA is being kept alive by artificial methods

The PA budget is bloated from "payroll" of non-working workers - but if they would slash the payroll, the people on international welfare would revolt. So the very basis of the organized Palestinian Arab workforce is a fiction being kept barely alive by ever-increasing infusions of cash with no real plan to fix the problem. (The bulk of the PA budget goes to Gaza, and much of that goes to workers being paid not to work.)

Elephant 6: Fatah remains a terrorist group paid by the PA

Despite the recent claims that the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades has dismantled, it is a joke meant to appease the wishful-thinkers. There has been no serious move by the PA against terror except for its tit-for-tat arrests of Hamas members in the West Bank, and its moves have been almost wholly cosmetic and aimed for Western consumption rather than real fighting against terror. The Al Aqsa Brigades continues to make statement and claim credit for terror attacks, even in 2010.

Elephant 7: The first - and second - stages of the roadmap were never implemented

The entire point of the road map was to slowly build confidence, starting with the end of terror and incitement on the Palestinian Arab side, afterwards building a "provisional" state and only then going to final-status negotiations. By skipping to Phase III as if the other two phases were already in place, the entire exercise is simply a joke. Incitement remains at full blast and the slight lull in terror is tactical, not a sea-change in Palestinian Arab attitudes.


Even though the US has made statements against Palestinian Arab incitement, it hasn't moved to stop it.

Elephant 8: The PA's goal remains the destruction of Israel

Whether it is by "right of return" or not changing the Fatah charter or by printing map after map showing no Israel, even the most moderate Palestinian leader clings to the idea of destroying Israel, and looks upon a Palestinian Arab state as only one stage in the process. One only needs to look at the maps of "Palestine" in official PA documents and schoolbooks.

Elephant 9: Jerusalem

Most Israelis want a unified Jerusalem under Israeli sovereignty. Most Palestinian Arabs refuse to accept anything less than all of Jerusalem as the capital of a Muslim state. The positions are not compatible and a compromise will not reduce the chances for violence - it will increase it.

Elephant 10: What happened to Gaza

Forgetting Hamas for now, the time period between Israel's dismantling settlements in Gaza and the Hamas takeover is instructive as to how Palestinian Arabs take advantage of territory they gain. They didn't build new houses or communities to reduce the "refugee camp" population, no schools or hospitals. They destroyed the greenhouses purchased for them by American Jews; they turned beautiful former settlements into training camps for terror - in other words, Israel's last major concession not only didn't help achieve peace, it ended up encouraging terror. Any claims that something similar wouldn't happen in the West Bank is the triumph of wishful thinking over experience.

Elephant 11: Palestinian Arab "unity"

Related to Elephant #1. No peace plan can work unless Hamas and the PA/Fatah reach some sort of unification agreement. This is not possible in the foreseeable future. Moreover, Hamas is powerful enough that any such agreement must include a hardening of positions that would be completely incompatible with the basic demands for peace - renunciation of terror, recognition of Israel and acceptance of previous agreements.

Elephant 12: The Palestinian Arab "diaspora" and Arab intransigence

Any final peace agreement would mean that Arab countries could no longer justify keeping Palestinian Arabs in "refugee camps" not could they justify their continued refusal to discriminate against Palestinian Arabs from becoming citizens of their countries should they want to stay. The millions of PalArabs in the Middle East becoming citizens would not be accepted by many Arab countries as it would endanger their own tenuous holds on power.


Elephant 13: Economics

Some 16 years after Oslo, the economy in the territories is still close to non-existent and wholly dependent on foreign aid. Not only is there no free market, there is no incentive to build one as the very mentality of Palestinian Arabs and their leaders is one of welfare rather than responsibility. All the plans to create a Palestinian Arab state do not consider Day 2 and how such a state would be able to sustain itself. The expected influx of hundreds of thousands of people from "refugee camps" would make it even worse. It would take at least a generation to turn the poisonous attitude of entitlement around.

Elephant 14: Gaza demographics

Gazans have no room to expand as their numbers continue to grow. Theoretically they could move to the West Bank but only a small percentage would. This is another Day 2 powder keg that is being ignored in the interests of a "solution" of a "Palestinian state."

Elephant 15: Palestinian Arab leaders never showed interest in independence

The West assumes that the goal is an independent Palestinian Arab state where Arabs no longer have to live under "occupation." But the actions and words of Palestinian Arab leaders have never borne that goal out; they have not worked towards building the institutions and infrastructure that would be necessary in an independent state. Their insistence on "right of return" and "Jerusalem" as issues that must be resolved before independence betray their thought processes - inconsistent with independence (neither of which require those two issues to be resolved) and consistent with a desire to destroy Israel in stages.


Elephant 16: A unilateral Palestinian Arab state would be militarized

There is no way that a new Palestinian Arab state would remain demilitarized for any length of time. The Palestinian government could invite Syria to position anti-aircraft weapons within its territory; to shoot missiles at El Al planes landing a few miles from the Green Line, or to get a few thousand tanks poised to cut Israel in half.

Iran already effectively controls Gaza, Lebanon and Syria. They would use the nascent state of Palestine to position themselves on the West Bank as well. Just like the PA ran away from Gaza at the first sign of trouble, so would they abandon their state to Iranian proxies and Islamic terrorists.

Their will to defend themselves is not nearly as strong as their will to destroy Israel, a desire that has been inculcated in them for generations. Palestinian Arab nationalism is a fundamentally weak and externally-imposed construct. Iran is poised and anxious to take advantage of the chaos that would follow a unilaterally declared state.

But the West is ready to risk Israel for that elephant as well.


Elephant 17: The so-called "right to return"


The PA is showing no interest in integrating the Palestinian Arabs outside of the territories into their state. On the contrary; the "refugee camps" in PA controlled territory continue to grow, rather than shrink. Clearly, the PA expects the bulk of the "diaspora" to go to Israel, not a Palestinian Arab state, and decades of incitement both within and without the territories have brainwashed generations of Arabs to not accept anything less than a "return" to a land that most of them have never stepped foot in.


Elephant 18: The tension between being pro-West and pro-Arab


The biggest Western success story in the Palestinian Arab territories is the existence of the "Dayton forces" that have been helping crack down on Hamas in the West Bank.


However, most Palestinian Arabs regard those forces as puppets of the West. Not only do Hamas and Islamic Jihad hammer away at this point, but ordinary Palestinian Arabs do as well. The more cooperation between the PA and Israel/US, the more the PA government is delegitimized in the eyes of its people.


Elephant 19: Corruption and human rights abuses are still endemic in the PA


Despite the publicized successes, the PA remains mired in corruption, hardly a model for an independent state. The 2008 Global Integrity Report rated the West Bank as close to the bottom in its corruption ratings. Press freedom remains low; the justice system is improving but hardly competent, and whistle-blowers are forced to go to the Israeli press to expose corruption. The success that the PA has had in weakening Hamas in the West Bank has come at the expense of massive human rights violations, including torture.


Elephant 20: Palestine would be Judenrein


Statements by PA leaders (with the notable exception of Fayyad) make it clear that their state of Palestine would not have any Jewish citizens allowed within. Jews whose ancestors have lived in Judea and Samaria, whether for decades or for millennia, will be legally barred from living in Palestine - an extraordinary display of state anti-semitism that is completely at odds with the Western standards that the nascent state of "Palestine" is attempting to live up to.


Elephant 21: The Muslim world's antipathy towards Israel


Even if all of the preceding elephants could somehow vanish, the Arab world and the Muslim world remains implacably against the idea of a Jewish state in the midst of supposedly Muslim lands. Iran remains in de facto control of southern Lebanon and Gaza; ordinary Jordanians and Egyptians remain among the worst anti-semites in the Arab world. The best "peace" would be bitter cold; it will not include any real normalization, and the threat from radical Islam remains potent in Arab and Muslim states. Furthermore, any tension between Israel and any of its neighbors - Hezbollah or Hamas or Syria - would result in even the moderate Arab world solidly behind Israel's enemies, no matter what. The best peace plan would result in Israel being exactly where it is today - surrounded by enemies, with less of a land buffer, and Israel relying on US money to prompt Arab neighbors to keep radicals in check.


That is not peace, and that is not security.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Elephant 1: Hamas controls Gaza, Elephant 2: Palestinian Arabs elected a terror government,

I can agree that they are a roadblock to peace. But Israel punishing the Gaza strip for voting for the wrong party by bombing and terrorizing the population is also not productive for peace.

Negotiating with the PA is, literally, meaningless.

Not really, the PA and PLO are being aided by International organizations and even if Gaza votes not to abide by a proposed peace deal,t he PA and PLO can make them do so as Hamas gets its own funding from Arab states.

Elephant 5: The PA is being kept alive by artificial methods

So is Israel.

Elephant 7: The first - and second - stages of the roadmap were never implemented

Which road map? I have never witnessed the Israelis taking the initiative

Elephant 8: The PA's goal remains the destruction of Israel

Not really. The PA offered to recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for retainment of lands illegally annexed by Israel in 1967. The Arab League also offered normalized relations with Israel and a recognition but the right-wing controlled Israeli government said that if they go back to those borders, it means a 'destruction of Israel." Furthermore, all the lands stolen from Palestinian refugees being returned back to their owners would also mean a destruction of Israel. So basically, it's the Israelis who believe that Palestinians with a nominally sized nation, will pose a direct threat to Israel. Quite ironic considering that you, Gammy, don't believe they exist at all.

Elephant 9: Jerusalem

Most Israelis want a unified Jerusalem under Israeli sovereignty. Most Palestinian Arabs refuse to accept anything less than all of Jerusalem as the capital of a Muslim state. The positions are not compatible and a compromise will not reduce the chances for violence - it will increase it.

Right, so the right thing to do is not allow any party to take it, maybe wait until larger territorial disputes are settled before dealing with the main Jerusalem issue. But unfortunately we know that the Israelis are confiscating lands, desecrative graves, and creating laws that protect Israeli settlers in occupying Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem.

Elephant 10: What happened to Gaza

This is what happenned to Gaza

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4697/280101gazapuinhopenanp9.jpg

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1098/gaza2114587a.jpg

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/7366/gazajebaliyarubble.jpg


Israel's last major concession not only didn't help achieve peace, it ended up encouraging terror.

Because it's still under occupation. Even today the blockade, the restrictions are crippling to the daily life of many. What Israel is doing to the Palestinians is illegal and inhumane.

Related to Elephant #1. No peace plan can work unless Hamas and the PA/Fatah reach some sort of unification agreement.

This is actually easier than getting the Israelis to dismantle settlements, share Jerusalem, and stop their continued occupation and apartheid of the West Bank.

Elephant 12: The Palestinian Arab "diaspora" and Arab intransigence

Any final peace agreement would mean that Arab countries could no longer justify keeping Palestinian Arabs in "refugee camps" not could they justify their continued refusal to discriminate against Palestinian Arabs from becoming citizens of their countries should they want to stay. The millions of PalArabs in the Middle East becoming citizens would not be accepted by many Arab countries as it would endanger their own tenuous holds on power.

I call his bluff. Should Israel actually be an honest broker for peace (seize settlement building, end their apartheid, end the continued brutal and oppressive occupation of Gaza and the West Bank in exchange for normalized relations with the Arab world and a chance for the world to be breath a sigh of relief; then, I believe, the issue of refugees can be settled by the Arabs, Israelis, Europeans, and North Americans.

Elephant 13: Economics

...all the plans to create a Palestinian Arab state do not consider Day 2 and how such a state would be able to sustain itself.

Well, when Day 1 includes how to survive another day in a giant fortified prison camp, day 2 doesn't seem all that important.


Elephant 14: Gaza demographics

Gazans have no room to expand as their numbers continue to grow.

Population envy?

Elephant 15: Palestinian Arab leaders never showed interest in independence

Bull.

Elephant 16: A unilateral Palestinian Arab state would be militarized...The Palestinian government could invite Syria to position anti-aircraft weapons within its territory; to shoot missiles at El Al planes landing a few miles from the Green Line, or to get a few thousand tanks poised to cut Israel in half.

Brainless speculation. Just another excuse to continue the ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Palestine.

Iran already effectively controls Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

More brainless speculation.

Their will to defend themselves is not nearly as strong as their will to destroy Israel, a desire that has been inculcated in them for generations.

The evil-doers hate your freedom.

But the West is ready to risk Israel for that elephant as well.

Israel was at risk from the moment they decided to confiscate and forcibly implant themselves in predominately Arab neighborhood and say that God told them to.

Elephant 18: The tension between being pro-West and pro-Arab

I see what you did there. Actually Jordan is Pro West, Egypt is Pro-West, Turkey is Pro-West. The tension is actually being Pro-Peace, or Pro-War. Israel is pro-war. Because every time there is war, the settlers, the Likud party make territorial gains, justify new walls, and new evictions. Hamas is pro war also. So infact, Israeli right wing nut jobs and Hamas are on the same side in my eyes.

Elephant 19: Corruption and human rights abuses are still endemic in the PA.Despite the publicized successes, the PA remains mired in corruption, hardly a model for an independent state.

What independent state?

West Bank has come at the expense of massive human rights violations, including torture.

Again, the pot calling the kettle black.


Elephant 20: Palestine would be Judenrein


Statements by PA leaders (with the notable exception of Fayyad) make it clear that their state of Palestine would not have any Jewish citizens allowed within.

Historically that is bull. Right now? Possibly, but I wouldn't blame them for having suspicions. Would you? Would an Israeli give up his home in Jerusalem to a Palestinian? I really don't think so.

Elephant 21: The Muslim world's antipathy towards Israel

Another load of bull. Historically, Muslims have been less anti-semitic to Jews than Europeans. Currently, all the nations of the Arab League would support normalized relationships with Israel if they would stop their continued occupation. They won't of course, because it is in Israel's national interest to take more land and ethnically cleanse Arab neighborhoods to make way for more Jewish settlements.

That is not peace, and that is not security.

Neither is what we have right now.

The only way to achieve peace is to have honest and resolute peace brokers. We don't negotiate with Hamas because they have chosen to not recognize Israel, but we choose to work with right-wing Anti-Palestinian Netanyahu and his coalition of Settlement builders for peace? That's like having the fox in charge of the hen house.

[hippie_hunter]

So is Israel.
Even without the excessive amounts of military aid that Israel receives, Israel is still a viable state without it. Sure it would have to cut corners like many countries are doing these days, but it could still live on. You can make strong arguments that in today's global economy where Germany should be most concerned about Germany and the United States should be most concerned about the United States, that aid to Israel should be reduced.

The Palestinian territories on the other hand would be comparable to Somalia, Yemen, and Afghanistan in terms of how well off they are if they didn't have the aid that they receive. Even with the poor condition of today's economy, you'd look like an ******* for suggesting to reduce aid to the Palestinians because even though their political system has been inflitrated by terrorist groups like Hamas, the Palestinian people need this aid.

I would say that's a big difference. Israel is a viable state. The Palestinian territories, if they became an independent nation today, are not.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Again this is all speculation but I'll play along here. Without (as vaguely as the blogger put it, 'artificial methods') US trade and Aid, that would mean around 35 Billion a year is gone from Israel's econonomy (including billions in military aid).

Let's say the UN puts similar sanctions to Israel similar to what it does to Iran, the country would become even more marginalized and this time no military aid to back it up. If it continued to become isolated, it will continue to become right-wing militant minded, more trigger happy, causing more skirmishes and more human rights abuses. EVEN if Israel diversified its economy to the point where it would need no aid, it would buckle even more under strict UN/US led Sanctions. I'd predict that in 50 years, Israel would be at war with major Arab nations leading to wide spread destruction, who knows maybe (eventually) Israel will shoot one of it's 100+ reported nukes?

Of course, this can be seen as one of the biggest fears of allowing Israel to fall apart; so obviously, crippling it is out of the question. That's why a middle path has to be taken that ensures that Israelis will be allowed to be free from reprisal attacks and terrorism, but also allows the Palestinians the same benefits.

It's easy to look down upon the Palestinian Authority, the PLO, even Hamas since they are largely the effect of 50 years of oppression and bullying ever since the Palestinian region has been colonized and occupied by Jews from Europe. Obviously they are heavily militarized, caustic, and trigger happy. Millions are displaced from this conflict, their homes, their lands, their identity stripped from them by immigrants from Europe who said that God allowed them to displace these people.

The biggest hurdle and 'elephant' in the room is the US and Europe and their Israeli lobbyists. They are not honest brokers of peace. Building of settlements is deemed illegal by the world yet nothing is done to stop it by their benefactors. Before apartheid separation walls and an intifada's had to take place, the road map could have been enforced with an international effort, similar to NATO in the former Yugoslavia.

This is a 60 year conflict in one of the most hotly contested powder-keg regions of the world. It is only fitting that this conflict is resolved as soon as possible.

[hippie_hunter]

All I have to say is that both you and Gamma bring valid points on what the hurdles and elephants are. I wouldn't call either the biggest because all of them are just as big.

There cannot be peace in the Middle East when most Arab states are not genuine in their "desire" for peace with Israel. Israel is entitled to feel safe and secure. Just like what Gamma is saying.

There also cannot be peace when Israel is expanding onto Palestinian territories and acts overzealously on what it perceives to be threats.

It's a simple fact that both sides have legitimate points and grevances in this argument.

[Midnyte_Sun]

It's a simple fact that both sides have legitimate points and grevances in this argument.

Ofcourse they both do. Of course you know that I will disagree that this is a fair and balanced struggle from both sides. Israel has a right to defend itself from terrorists and governments bent on it's destruction. They are quite aware of those threats, but are blind to the internal threat that is actually more hostile and hawkish in nature.

The right wing block in their government is intent on taking more land and pushing the Palestinians to neighboring Arab countries. This is the government that is in power today. This is equivalent of having the leader of Hamas as a 'partner for peace.'

This destructive side will inadvertently cause more grievances to its own citizens and the nations abroad who they deem must be toppled. Eventually, I believe this will lead to more war for Israel in the future.

Israel is basically trying to force cooperation with the Arabs and history will attest that this will backfire in the long run. Like all segregated colonies in the past (and in this region) Israel will either be consumed by its neighbors, merge with them, or split to pieces. As you know in the past, colonies would simply wipe out the original inhabitants, or convert them. Today, and in this region specifically, it's not that simple.

Do both sides have issues and grievances? Ofcourse, but this is a one sided conflict. Israel has the nukes, and 20+ Billion in aid (US and Euro Tax dollars) per year along side with billions in military aid. The side that funds them have no problem supporting one aggressor over the other and prolonging the conflict in the process. They can't hold them accountable either without being called anti-Semitic.

Whenever an international effort tries to make Israel accountable, the US comes in with its Veto power and nullifies it. Couple that with lobbyists who give generously to PAC's and you have a recipe for an ongoing conflict.

That is why the silliest excuse for this war (not claiming you've used this) is "they've always been fighting." I know the Palestinians have had their fair share of hostile intent, but their hostility is natural given it was THEIR land that was taken and mostly their lives affected by the occupation. Millions of refugees have lived over 60 years outside waiting for this conflict to end and if it ever does, there is no guarantee they will ever see their homes that have now been illegally replaced with Israeli towns.

Taking a step back and realizing why this needless conflict has persisted for 60 years you will see a clear path as to how the events unfolded. The Zionist movement was intent from the beginning to take and force out the original inhabitants. This is neo-colonialism, plain and simple.

[Midnyte_Sun]

The oppression continues

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5734/x610ph.jpg


http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5867/610xyd.jpg


An elderly Palestinian man shows a burnt copy of the Muslim holy Koran at a mosque in the West Bank village of Beit Fajjar, south of Bethlehem, which was allegedly burnt by Jewish settlers overnight on October 04, 2010.

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/4044/610x1v.jpg


A Palestinian Muslim man prays at a partially burnt mosque in the West Bank village of Beit Fajjar, south of Bethlehem, which was allegedly vandalized by Jewish settlers overnight on October 04, 2010.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israel - Not as Secular as you Think

"Everyone who wants to receive Israeli citizenship must swear loyalty to the state of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state," ultra-nationalist Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman told public radio. Labour party ministers, who also oppose the bill, say they expect a new [partial] freeze on settlement building as a payoff.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11491988

Meanwhile...

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/5168/610xds.jpg

A Palestinian farmer from the village of Hawara uses a wooden stick to extinguish fire at his olives tree grove that was allegedly set ablaze by Jewish settlers from the nearby settlement of Yitzhar in the northern West Bank on October 7, 2010.

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/5718/610x1d.jpg

Palestinian Ihsan al-Dababsi, 35, from the southern West Bank village of Nuba, who appeared on You Tube video bound and blindfolded with an Israeli soldier belly dancing around her, talks to a reporter at her family house on October 6, 2010. The Palestinian woman described how she was 'humiliated' when Israeli soldiers filmed her in detention for a video clip that sparked outrage when it circulated online.

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/2428/610x2m.jpg

A Palestinian man carries broken branches of an olive tree farmers say were cut overnight by Jewish settlers, in the northern West Bank village of Hawara, near Nablus, Wednesday Oct. 6, 2010. Palestinian farmers say Jewish settlers from the nearby settlement of Yitzhar cut more than 50 olive trees overnight.

[Gamma Ray]

I have decided to start posting in this thread again now that I have discovered the IGNORE feature. Needless to say, I no longer have to see Midnyte Sun's antisemitic comments and propaganda.

Some things that caught my eye this weekend:

PA Quiz Shows Awards Contestants for Saying Israeli Cities are Palestinian
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/10/palestinian-authority-tv-quiz-show.html

The Recent Stoning/Subsequent Car Accident Cover-up Propaganda Attempt
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/10/some-notes-on-staged-rock-throwing-of.html

Gazans Move Freely Between Gaza and Egypt
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/10/2491-people-managed-to-escape-worlds.html

[Schlosser85]

Calling those who show the Palestinian side "anti-Semitic" is just as dishonest as when you accused them of "supporting terrorism".

[Midnyte_Sun]

I have decided to start posting in this thread again now that I have discovered the IGNORE feature. Needless to say, I no longer have to see Midnyte Sun's antisemitic comments and propaganda.

You've already stated that:

1. You believe war is the only option
2. Palestinians don't exist
3. Muslims are all terrorists
4. Even though Arabs are Semites they are all Anti-Semites.
5. Anybody who criticizes Israel is anti-Semitic.

This coming from the guy who declared he would not post here at least two times yet keeps coming back because he can't stand there is an opposing opinion on Israel. Instead of reasoning, you choose to isolate yourself; Enjoy your new found ignorance, it suits you well.

Some things that caught my eye this weekend:

PA Quiz Shows Awards Contestants for Saying Israeli Cities are Palestinian
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/10/palestinian-authority-tv-quiz-show.html

The Recent Stoning/Subsequent Car Accident Cover-up Propaganda Attempt
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/10/some-notes-on-staged-rock-throwing-of.html

Gazans Move Freely Between Gaza and Egypt
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/10/2491-people-managed-to-escape-worlds.html

Elder of Zion..ah yes. The blog that doesn't believe Palestinians exist, doesn't believe in peace, has no qualms of attacking Islam, and equates every Palestinian with a radical.

Why is that bigotry is the only thing that attracts you?

[Kelly]

We need a quota on how many times "allegedly" can be used in a thread without ACTUAL proof....


j/k of course, but geeeeesh, allegedly this, and allegedly that...... proof?

[Midnyte_Sun]

So Muslims burned their own Qurans and vandalized their own Mosque? When Jewish leaders went to apologize for the crime, they were only apologizing for an alleged crime that you think could have been staged? Even though Palestinian villages are often targeted by Settlers and most Settler crimes often go unpunished?

[Kelly]

So Muslims burned their own Qurans and vandalized their own Mosque? When Jewish leaders went to apologize for the crime, they were only apologizing for an alleged crime that you think could have been staged? Even though Palestinian villages are often targeted by Settlers and most Settler crimes often go unpunished?

Nero did it to his own capital during the Roman Empire....and blamed it on the Christians....so its not so farfetched...

If they have actual proof then there is no need to use the word "alleged" which tells me, they can't prove it either. Never said "it didn't happen"....simply that they are unable to show proof.

[Midnyte_Sun]

I've never seen you the conspiracy theorist type. So from your perspective it is more likely that Muslims did this to themselves? Just curious.

When this type of vandalism happened in the United States, the vandals were never caught and everyone knew it was a hate crime. Vandals in Israel regularly target mosques; even spray painting people's doors with the Star of David. Considering the environment this occurred and the level of impunity the settlers have, this is a no-brainer as to who did it.

[Midnyte_Sun]

After securing new $3 billion deal for US fighter jets, Israel offers another partial and temporary settlement freeze

Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has offered to renew a partial freeze on settlement building, if the Palestinians recognise Israel as "a Jewish state." Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said Mr Netanyahu was "playing games" with his offer, and that there was no connection between Jewish settlements and the national character of Israel.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11517990

[Kelly]

I've never seen you the conspiracy theorist type. So from your perspective it is more likely that Muslims did this to themselves? Just curious.

When this type of vandalism happened in the United States, the vandals were never caught and everyone knew it was a hate crime. Vandals in Israel regularly target mosques; even spray painting people's doors with the Star of David. Considering the environment this occurred and the level of impunity the settlers have, this is a no-brainer as to who did it.

And I've never seen someone read so much into a post.

All I am saying is.....it seems they use "alleged" A LOT.....because of lack of evidence, proof. That is ALL I SAID, I said nothing more.

To be honest with you, I would like for the US to totally move out of the region and let them do as they will....

Both have utter contempt and disrespect for the act of cooperation, so as far as I'm concerned, let them make their own future.

[hippie_hunter]

After securing new $3 billion deal for US fighter jets, Israel offers another partial and temporary settlement freeze

Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has offered to renew a partial freeze on settlement building, if the Palestinians recognise Israel as "a Jewish state." Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said Mr Netanyahu was "playing games" with his offer, and that there was no connection between Jewish settlements and the national character of Israel.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11517990
I really don't see the problem in recognizing Israel as a Jewish state. Even if it's government is supposedly secular, it is still culturally Jewish. It should be a Jewish state, just like a Palestinian Arab state should be an Arab state.

[Gamma Ray]

I really don't see the problem in recognizing Israel as a Jewish state. Even if it's government is supposedly secular, it is still culturally Jewish. It should be a Jewish state, just like a Palestinian Arab state should be an Arab state.

The only difference is that Jews would be expelled from any future Palestine, whereas Israeli Arabs would be allowed to continue enjoying their lives as Israelis. The world only has a problem with a Jewish state. Tens of Muslim countries? No problem! Christian countries? Go right ahead. Jews? Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not go crazy. Aren't they better suited for ghettos?

[hippie_hunter]

The only difference is that Jews would be expelled from any future Palestine, whereas Israeli Arabs would be allowed to continue enjoying their lives as Israelis. The world only has a problem with a Jewish state. Tens of Muslim countries? No problem! Christian countries? Go right ahead. Jews? Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not go crazy. Aren't they better suited for ghettos?

The world doesn't have a problem with a Jewish state. Hell it was the international community that created Israel after the Holocaust. The international community's problem lies in the fact that Israel and Israel's Arab neighbors have screwed over the Palestinian Arabs. There should be two states in the former Mandate of Palestine, not one state and an area that is screwed over by Israel, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Iraq, etc.

And of course you have members in the Israeli government who want to discriminate against Israeli Arabs.

[Midnyte_Sun]

The only difference is that Jews would be expelled from any future Palestine, whereas Israeli Arabs would be allowed to continue enjoying their lives as Israelis. The world only has a problem with a Jewish state. Tens of Muslim countries? No problem! Christian countries? Go right ahead. Jews? Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not go crazy. Aren't they better suited for ghettos?

Jews have lived with Arabs and other Muslim countries for much longer than any Jewish state.

That is actually all speculation as the Palestinians do not have a state of their own. If a Palestinian state is created, then they have to incorporate the millions of refugees who kicked off their own lands in what is today Israel. Then they have to deal where to put them, and how the Arab, Asian, European, and N. American nations will cooperate in this regard.

[hippie_hunter]

Jews have lived with Arabs and other Muslim countries for much longer than any Jewish state.

That is actually all speculation as the Palestinians do not have a state of their own. If a Palestinian state is created, then they have to incorporate the millions of refugees who kicked off their own lands in what is today Israel. Then they have to deal where to put them, and how the Arab, Asian, European, and N. American nations will cooperate in this regard.

The Arab states won't cooperate. They want to make Israel look as bad as possible. It's why they have continually screwed over the Palestinian Arabs over and over.

And Europe won't want them either. Europe's Islamophobia makes America's look tame in comparison.

[Midnyte_Sun]

The Arab states won't cooperate. They want to make Israel look as bad as possible. It's why they have continually screwed over the Palestinian Arabs over and over.

And Europe won't want them either. Europe's Islamophobia makes America's look tame in comparison.

Should the Palestinians get a state of their own, I think they (Arab and other states) will have no choice but to have a solution for these refugees. Pakistan and Iran supported 4-6 Million Afghan refugees (100K in Europe and N. America) fleeing the Soviet occupation. After Karzai's administration was installed, over 2.5 Million went back voluntarily, and about a million still live in Iran and Pakistan who will most likely return if the country is ever stabilized. They have to first get a country that right now, Israel won't give back.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israel court jails West Bank barrier protest leader


http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8260/610xfe.jpg

Abdallah Abu Rahma, 39, was one of the organisers of the weekly demonstrations against the barrier being built by Israel in the West Bank.
They are largely non-violent, but are sometimes marred by Palestinian stone throwers. The prosecution of Abu Rahma has been widely criticised by human rights groups. The European Union's foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton has issued a statement in August saying: "The EU considers Abdallah Abu Rahma to be a human rights defender committed to non-violent protest… The High Representative is deeply concerned that the possible imprisonment of Mr Abu Rahma is intended to prevent him and other Palestinians from exercising their legitimate right to protest against the existence of the separation barriers in a non-violent manner."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11521237

[Gamma Ray]

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=191263
Illegal structures in Silwan multiply by ten in last 43 yrs. State Comptroller report says number has risen to 130 since 1967; 1,000 structures built without permits in east J'lem each year.


In other news, Ahma...wtvr is "visiting" Lebanon to see how his funding of Hezbollah is working out. He and Hizballah leader Hassan Nasrallah both called for Israel's destruction at a joint event in Beirut. Amazing that people have actually stood up for these people in this thread.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/10/13/iran.ahmadinejad.lebanon/index.html


Finally, a clever image entitled "Why the driver was at fault":
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4449/protestpalisign31.jpg

[Midnyte_Sun]

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=191263
Illegal structures in Silwan multiply by ten in last 43 yrs. State Comptroller report says number has risen to 130 since 1967; 1,000 structures built without permits in east J'lem each year.

They can't get permits because Israel is occupying that area and mostly gives permits to Jewish settlers. What do you have to worry about? They're going to demolish these peoples homes anyways to make way for an Israeli museum.

[Gamma Ray]

The things this man says are appalling. Hitler of our time.
http://www.jpost.com/IranianThreat/News/Article.aspx?id=191407

[Kelly]

The things this man says are appalling. Hitler of our time.
http://www.jpost.com/IranianThreat/News/Article.aspx?id=191407

Not quite yet...

I don't think he has written a book, or is even literate....

I don't believe he has been in prison....

And not sure that he has caused a holocaust, only believes that one didn't happen....


BUT, give him time, he may get there yet.

I would call some in Africa Hitler LOOOOOOONG before I would call this one by that name.

[Gamma Ray]

I make the comparison because of what he says about "Zionists" AKA Jews.


IDF Soldiers Safeguard Palestinians During Olive Harvest Season
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQr6KTvp7DE

[hippie_hunter]

Should the Palestinians get a state of their own, I think they (Arab and other states) will have no choice but to have a solution for these refugees. Pakistan and Iran supported 4-6 Million Afghan refugees (100K in Europe and N. America) fleeing the Soviet occupation. After Karzai's administration was installed, over 2.5 Million went back voluntarily, and about a million still live in Iran and Pakistan who will most likely return if the country is ever stabilized. They have to first get a country that right now, Israel won't give back.

The Palestinians should have a state of their own. In my opinion, Jerusalem should become an international city that respects Jewish, Islamic, and Christian faiths.

And the borders between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine should divide the former Mandate of Palestine on the 1967 borders. Palestine gets all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel gets the rest. Kick out the Jewish settlers like how they were kicked out in Gaza because they shouldn't be there to begin with and Israel gets recognition and security guarantees that Israel will not be attacked by her neighbors......again.

Palestinian refugees go back to areas controled by the State of Palestine (Gaza Strip and West Bank). No Palestinians in Israel. No Israelis in Palestine. Plain and simple.

[Kelly]

The Palestinians should have a state of their own. In my opinion, Jerusalem should become an international city that respects Jewish, Islamic, and Christian faiths.

And the borders between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine should divide the former Mandate of Palestine on the 1967 borders. Palestine gets all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel gets the rest. Kick out the Jewish settlers like how they were kicked out in Gaza because they shouldn't be there to begin with and Israel gets recognition and security guarantees that Israel will not be attacked by her neighbors......again.

Palestinian refugees go back to areas controled by the State of Palestine (Gaza Strip and West Bank). No Palestinians in Israel. No Israelis in Palestine. Plain and simple.

Seems so simple doesn't it......

When my students study these issues, they shake their heads. It does seem so simple, yet is unbelievably complex.

How would things be different if Jerusalem had gone as planned and been an International City as the UN wanted in the beginning? Unfortunately we will never know...

[hippie_hunter]

Seems so simple doesn't it......

When my students study these issues, they shake their heads. It does seem so simple, yet is unbelievably complex.

How would things be different if Jerusalem had gone as planned and been an International City as the UN wanted in the beginning? Unfortunately we will never know...

The only reason why it's complex is because Israel and the Arabs act like children. Everyone tries to make it complex when the solution is quite simple. I say treat them like children if they're going to act like it.

[bell110]

I make the comparison because of what he says about "Zionists" AKA Jews.


IDF Soldiers Safeguard Palestinians During Olive Harvest Season
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQr6KTvp7DE

You can't lump all Jews as Zionists.

[Kelly]

The only reason why it's complex is because Israel and the Arabs act like children. Everyone tries to make it complex when the solution is quite simple. I say treat them like children if they're going to act like it.

Oh, I agree.....

My students go through an activity where they take on the role of Palestinians, Israelis and Mediators....

Many have almost come to blows....lol

BUT, many have also come to pretty solid agreements....

[Gamma Ray]

The Palestinians should have a state of their own. In my opinion, Jerusalem should become an international city that respects Jewish, Islamic, and Christian faiths.

And the borders between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine should divide the former Mandate of Palestine on the 1967 borders. Palestine gets all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel gets the rest. Kick out the Jewish settlers like how they were kicked out in Gaza because they shouldn't be there to begin with and Israel gets recognition and security guarantees that Israel will not be attacked by her neighbors......again.

Palestinian refugees go back to areas controled by the State of Palestine (Gaza Strip and West Bank). No Palestinians in Israel. No Israelis in Palestine. Plain and simple.

Jerusalem already is an international city that respects all faiths. Just because it is part of Israel doesn't mean that any religious group has trouble getting there and all religions are free to participate. Would it be the same under Palestinian or UN rule? Absolutely, without a doubt, not.

The borders pre-'67 didn't work for the Arabs then, why do you assume that they would be content with them now. It has been demonstrated time and time again that it's never enough and the concept of a Jewish state in "Muslim land" is unacceptable. And because the war was started by Arabs, they lost their land fair and square, as they say, and there is not incentive that would convince Israel to up and leave. The Jews were removed from Gaza by Israel and that only got them years of continuing terror in Sderot, Ashdod, etc, a terrorist regime in control and absolutely nothing in terms of peace.

Your idea for a security guarantee is naiveté at its best. First of all, no country is ever guaranteed of security and second, Israel will never be widely accepted by its Muslim neighbors. That Egypt finally realized it was in their best interest to accept Israel is nothing short of miraculous.

No Palestinians in Israel. No Israelis in Palestine. Plain and simple? Are you joking?? No matter what kind of arrangement is made Arabs will remain living their carefree lives in Israel (living off the government in many a case), but Jews would be expelled (like they have been from countless other Muslim countries) and THAT will not change.

[hippie_hunter]

Jerusalem already is an international city that respects all faiths. Just because it is part of Israel doesn't mean that any religious group has trouble getting there and all religions are free to participate. Would it be the same under Palestinian or UN rule? Absolutely, without a doubt, not.
Jerusalem is not an international city. While it respects the Islamic faith under Israeli rule, it shouldn't be under the control of either the Israelis or Palestinians. The UN would respect the other faiths besides just Islam.

The borders pre-'67 didn't work for the Arabs then, why do you assume that they would be content with them now. It has been demonstrated time and time again that it's never enough and the concept of a Jewish state in "Muslim land" is unacceptable. And because the war was started by Arabs, they lost their land fair and square, as they say, and there is not incentive that would convince Israel to up and leave. The Jews were removed from Gaza by Israel and that only got them years of continuing terror in Sderot, Ashdod, etc, a terrorist regime in control and absolutely nothing in terms of peace.

Your idea for a security guarantee is naiveté at its best. First of all, no country is ever guaranteed of security and second, Israel will never be widely accepted by its Muslim neighbors. That Egypt finally realized it was in their best interest to accept Israel is nothing short of miraculous.

No Palestinians in Israel. No Israelis in Palestine. Plain and simple? Are you joking?? No matter what kind of arrangement is made Arabs will remain living their carefree lives in Israel (living off the government in many a case), but Jews would be expelled (like they have been from countless other Muslim countries) and THAT will not change.
Like I said, if the Palestinians want an independent state, they, along with the other Arab states, have to recognize and promise not to attack Israel. This is the thing that the Arabs are just going to have to suck up.

Also, not all Arabs in Israel are Palestinian, they are Israeli Arabs. Most Jews in the West Bank are settlers who shouldn't be there to begin with. Big difference.

[Kelly]

Jerusalem already is an international city that respects all faiths. Just because it is part of Israel doesn't mean that any religious group has trouble getting there and all religions are free to participate. Would it be the same under Palestinian or UN rule? Absolutely, without a doubt, not.

The borders pre-'67 didn't work for the Arabs then, why do you assume that they would be content with them now. It has been demonstrated time and time again that it's never enough and the concept of a Jewish state in "Muslim land" is unacceptable. And because the war was started by Arabs, they lost their land fair and square, as they say, and there is not incentive that would convince Israel to up and leave. The Jews were removed from Gaza by Israel and that only got them years of continuing terror in Sderot, Ashdod, etc, a terrorist regime in control and absolutely nothing in terms of peace.

Your idea for a security guarantee is naiveté at its best. First of all, no country is ever guaranteed of security and second, Israel will never be widely accepted by its Muslim neighbors. That Egypt finally realized it was in their best interest to accept Israel is nothing short of miraculous.

No Palestinians in Israel. No Israelis in Palestine. Plain and simple? Are you joking?? No matter what kind of arrangement is made Arabs will remain living their carefree lives in Israel (living off the government in many a case), but Jews would be expelled (like they have been from countless other Muslim countries) and THAT will not change.

So it is still under UN's Resolution 181?


H_H plan is not naive, it is simply logical and therefore would not work with people that are not pushing towards peace because that would mean they can't fight anymore. What fun would that be?

[Midnyte_Sun]

I make the comparison because of what he says about "Zionists" AKA Jews.

I saw what you did there. Even if you choose to ignore discourse, the fact of the matter is, Zionism does not equate wholly with Judaism. There are fervent Ultra-Orthodox Jews who are against the State of Israel. There are numerous Reformist Jews who are not Zionists either. There are lots of Evangelical Christians who support Zionism but are not Jews either. Why not say what you feel Gamma?

Why do you continue to believe that people who oppose your views on Israel are anti-semitic terrorists?

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israel unviels new plan to build 238 Settler Homes in Occupied East Jerusalem

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2465/610x3ur.jpg

Israel has occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, since 1967, settling close to 500,000 Jews in more than 100 settlements. The international community considers East Jerusalem occupied territory, and building on occupied land is illegal under international law.

--

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1292/610x1l.jpg

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/200/610xzm.jpg



Palestinian farmers (R) talk to Israel soldiers who were deployed to avoid trouble after Jewish settlers (background) set fire to an olive tree field in the northern West Bank village of Farata, on October 15, 2010.

[Kelly]

Where do you get these pics MS?