The Israel Situation

[Midnyte_Sun]

I 'allegedly' get these from Getty Images, AP Photo, Reuters, Yahoo, BBC.

I collect photographs I find online. The higher resolution, the better. Flikr and Picasa have quite a few good albums as well.

This is one of my favorites from this conflict:

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6367/610x4f.jpg

[bell110]

That is very Tiananmen Square-ish.

[Midnyte_Sun]

That is very Tiananmen Square-ish.

Except we help pay for it.

[Carcharodon]

I 'allegedly' get these from Getty Images, AP Photo, Reuters, Yahoo, BBC.

I collect photographs I find online. The higher resolution, the better. Flikr and Picasa have quite a few good albums as well.

This is one of my favorites from this conflict:

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6367/610x4f.jpgThat kid actually has great throwing form.

[Gamma Ray]

Just makes you wonder where that kids parents are. And what the context of the photo is. And how someone could just sit there taking a photograph when a kid is "in danger". For all we know, the tank wasn't even moving. Great attempt at propaganda by the media, but as usual a horrible failure.

Here are some more lies about Israel:
LIE #1
Israel was created by European guilt over the Nazi Holocaust. Why should Palestinians pay the price?

Three thousand years before the Holocaust, before there was a Roman Empire, Israel’s kings and prophets walked the streets of Jerusalem. The whole world knows that Isaiah did not speak his prophesies from Portugal, nor Jeremiah his lamentations from France. Revered by its people, Jerusalem is mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures 600 times - but not once in the Koran. Throughout its 2,000-year exile there was continuous Jewish presence in the Holy Land, with the modern rebirth of Israel beginning in the 1800s. Reclamation of the largely vacant land by pioneering Zionists blossomed into a Jewish majority long before the onset of Nazism.

After the Holocaust, nearly 200,000 Shoah survivors found haven in the Jewish State, created by a two-thirds vote of the UN in 1947. Soon 800,000 Jews fleeing persecution in Arab countries arrived. In ensuing decades, Israel absorbed a million immigrants from the Soviet Union and thousands of Ethiopian Jews. Today, far from being a vestige of European guilt or colonialism, Israel is a diverse, cosmopolitan society, fulfilling the age-old dream of a people’s journey and ‘Return to Zion’- their ancient homeland.

LIE #2
Had Israel withdrawn to its June 1967 borders, peace would have come long ago.

Since 1967, Israel has repeatedly conceded, “land for peace.” Following Egyptian President Sadat’s historic 1977 visit to Jerusalem and the Camp David Peace Accords, Israel withdrew from the vast Sinai Peninsula and has been at peace with Egypt ever since.

In 1995, Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel but neither the Palestinians nor 21 other Arab states have done so. In 1993, Israel signed the Oslo Accords ceding administrative control of the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority(formerly the PLO). The PA never fulfilled its promise to end propaganda attacks and drop the Palestinian National Charter’s call for Israel’s destruction.

In 2000, Prime Minister Barak offered Yasser Arafat full sovereignty over 97% of the West Bank, a corridor to Gaza, and a capitol in the Arab section of Jerusalem. Arafat said NO. In 2008, PA President Abbas nixed virtually the same offer from Prime Minister Olmert. In 2005, Prime Minister Sharon unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. Taken over by terrorist Hamas, they turned dismantled Jewish communities into launching sites for suicide bombers and 8,000+ rockets into Israel proper. In 2010, Prime Minister Netanyahu renewed offers of unconditional negotiations leading to a Palestinian State, but Palestinians refused, demanding more unilateral Israeli concessions, including a total freeze of all Israeli construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

LIE #3
Israel is the main stumbling block to achieving a Two-State solution.

The Palestinians themselves are the only stumbling block to achieving a Two-State solution. With whom should Israel negotiate? With President Abbas, who, for four years, has been barred by Hamas from visiting 1.5 million constituents in Gaza? With his Palestinian Authority, which continues to glorify terrorists and preaches hate in its educational system and the media? With Hamas, whose Iranianbacked leaders deny the Holocaust and use fanatical Jihadist rhetoric to call for Israel’s destruction?

Today, it is a simple fact that while the State of Israel is prepared to recognize all Arab States, secular or Muslim, these states adamantly refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish State and demand “the right of return” of five million so-called Palestinian “refugees” – a sure guarantee for Israel’s demise.

LIE#4
Nuclear Israel not Iran is the greatest threat to peace and stability.

Though never acknowledged by Jerusalem, it is generally assumed that Israel has nuclear weapons. But unlike Pakistan, India, and North Korea, Israel never conducted nuclear tests. In 1973, when its very survival was imperiled by the surprise Egyptian-Syrian Yom Kippur attack, many assumed Israel would use nuclear weapons--but it did not. Contrary to public condemnations, many Arab leaders privately express relief that Israeli nuclear deterrence exists. While Israel has never threatened anyone, Tehran’s mullahs daily threaten to “wipe Israel from the map.” The U.S. and Europe can afford to wait to see what the Iranian regime does with its nuclear ambitions. But Israel cannot. She is on the front lines and remembers every day the price the Jewish people paid for not taking Hitler at his word. Israel is not prepared to sacrifice another six million Jews on the altar of the world’s indifference.

LIE #5
Israel is an Apartheid State deserving of International Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaigns.

On both sides of the Atlantic, church groups, academics and unions are leading deceitful and often anti-Semitic boycott campaigns demonizing what they call the Jewish “apartheid” State.

The truth is that unlike apartheid South Africa, Israel is a democratic state. Its 20% Arab minority enjoys all the political, economic and religious rights and freedoms of citizenship, including electing members of their choice to the Knesset (Parliament). Israeli Arabs and Palestinians have standing before Israel’s Supreme Court. In contrast, no Jew may own property in Jordan, no Christian or Jew can visit Islam’s holiest sites in Saudi Arabia.

LIE #6
Plans to build 1,600 more homes in East Jerusalem prove Israel is ‘Judaizing’ the Holy City.

Enemies of Israel, exploit this phony issue. Jerusalem is holy to three great faiths. Its diverse population includes a Jewish majority with Muslim and Christian minorities. Since 1967, for the first time in history, there is full freedom of religion for all faiths in Jerusalem. Muslim and Christian religious bodies administer their own holy sites. Indeed, the Waqf is allowed to control Jerusalem’s Temple Mount, even though it rests on Solomon’s temple and is holy to BOTH Jews and Muslims.

Meanwhile, Jerusalem’s municipality must meet the needs of a growing modern city. The unfortunately-timed announcement during U.S. Vice President Biden’s visit of 1600 new apartments in Ramat Shlomo, was not about Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem, but for a long established, heavily populated Jewish neighborhood in Northern Jerusalem, where 250,000 Jews live (about the same population as Newark, N.J.) -- an area that will never be relinquished by Israel.

LIE #7
Israeli policies endanger U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The charge that Israel endangers U.S. troops in Iraq or the AF-Pak region is an update of the old “stab in the back” lie that Jews always betray their own friends, and the libel spouted by Henry Ford and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion that “Jews are the father of all wars.”

U.S. General Petraeus has stated he considers Israel a great strategic asset for the U.S. and that his earlier remarks linking the safety of U.S. troops in the region to an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal (which 2/3 of Israelis want) were taken out of context. A resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict would benefit everyone, including the U.S. But an imposed return to what Abba Eban called “1967 Auschwitz borders” would endanger Israel’s survival and ultimately be disastrous for American interests and credibility in the world.

LIE #8
Israeli policies are the cause of worldwide anti-Semitism.

From the Inquisition to the pogroms, to the 6,000,000 Jews murdered by the Nazis, history proves that Jew-hatred existed on a global scale before the creation of the State of Israel. In 2010, it would still exist even if Israel had never been created. For example, one poll indicates 40% of Europeans blame the recent global economic crisis on “Jews having too much economic power,” a canard that has nothing to do with Israel.

The unsettled Palestinian-Israeli dispute aggravates Muslim-Jewish tensions, but it is not the root cause. During World War II, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a notorious Jewhater, helped the Nazis organize the 13th SS Division, made up of Muslims. Unfortunately, in addition to respectful references to Jewish patriarchs and prophets, the Koran also contains virulent anti-Semitic stereotypes that are widely invoked by Islamist extremists, including Hezbollah (whose agents blew up the Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires in 1994), to justify murdering Jews worldwide. The disappearance of Israel would only further embolden violent Jew-haters everywhere.

LIE #9
Israel, not Hamas, is responsible for the “humanitarian catastrophe” in Gaza. Goldstone was right when he charged that Israel was guilty of war crimes against civilians.

The Goldstone Report on Israel’s defensive war against Hamas-controlled Gaza, from which 8,000 rockets were fired after Israel’s unilateral withdrawal in 2005, is a biased product of the UN’s misnamed Human Rights Council. The UNHRC is obsessed with false anti-Israel resolutions. It refuses to address grievous human rights abuses in Iran, North Korea, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Cuba and beyond.

Faced with similar attacks, every UN member-state including the U.S. and Canada would surely have acted more aggressively than the IDF did in Gaza.

Yet, Richard Goldstone, a South African Jewish jurist, signed a document prepared by investigators whose main qualification was rabid anti-Israel bias. He accepted every anonymous libel against the IDF. But he insisted that hearings in Gaza be televised, guaranteeing that fearful Palestinians would never testify about Hamas’ use of civilians as human shields and their hiding of weapons in mosques and hospitals. Harvard Professor Alan Dershowitz denounced Goldstone’s Report as a modern “blood libel” accusing Israeli soldiers of crimes they never committed.

LIE #10
The only hope for peace is a single, bi-national state, eliminating the Jewish State of Israel.

The One-State solution, promoted by academics, is a non-starter because it would eliminate the Jewish homeland. However, the current pressures on Israel are equally dangerous. In effect, the world is demanding that Israel, the size of New Jersey, shrink further by accepting a Three-State solution: a PA state on the West Bank and a Hamas terrorist state controlling 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza. All this, as Hezbollah, Iran’s proxy in Lebanon, stockpiles 50,000 rockets, threatening northern and central Israel’s main population centers.

In 2010, most Middle East experts believe that the only hope for enduring peace is two states with defined final borders. But too many diplomats, pundits, academics and church leaders ignore the fact that current polls show that while most Israelis favor a Two-State solution, most Palestinians continue to oppose it.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Just makes you wonder where that kids parents are.

Like you give a damn about his parents. If I remember correctly, that photo is from the 2nd intifada. So most likely, they fled their homes as Israel was going to neighborhood to neighborhood demolishing and destroying, making way for their new apartheid walls and settlements in the West Bank. Similar photos were taken in Gaza. In retrospect, I should have kept the article that went with that article. It did win many awards.

Here are some more lies about Israel:
Israel was created by European guilt over the Nazi Holocaust. Why should Palestinians pay the price?

Three thousand years before the Holocaust, before there was a Roman Empire, Israel’s kings and prophets walked the streets of Jerusalem. The whole world knows that Isaiah did not speak his prophesies from Portugal, nor Jeremiah his lamentations from France. Revered by its people, Jerusalem is mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures 600 times - but not once in the Koran.

Let's call that first statement above BS or Lie #1:

That is one of the stupidest arguments ever used. So it wasn't Holocaust in Europe, it was prophecy? Give me a break. Just do a simple internet search, or grab a book about the Zionist movement and the answer is pretty clear:

"The political movement was formally established by the Austro-Hungarian journalist Theodor Herzl in the late 19th century following the publication of his book Der Judenstaat." Walter Laqueur, The History of Zionism (2003) p. 40. (Source: Wikipedia!)

Lie # 2: Throughout its 2,000-year exile there was continuous Jewish presence in the Holy Land

Isn't there a Jewish saying, "A half truth is a whole lie?" Here we might assume that since Jews existed here, that they should retain the entire country, except there is a BIG exception, NO ZIONISTS were in their midst. They lived peacefully among Christians and Muslims. Not until Jews from Europe started arriving by the boat loads did they become radicalized to this idea of colonization.

Lie #3: Reclamation of the largely vacant land

One of the biggest lies and historical revinionism created by the Zionists.

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Straight from the horses mouth:

"David Ben Gurion, Israeli's first prime minister, laid it out with brutal honesty. "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"



Since 1967, Israel has repeatedly conceded, “land for peace.” Following Egyptian President Sadat’s historic 1977 visit to Jerusalem and the Camp David Peace Accords, Israel withdrew from the vast Sinai Peninsula and has been at peace with Egypt ever since.

In 1995, Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel but neither the Palestinians nor 21 other Arab states have done so. In 1993, Israel signed the Oslo Accords ceding administrative control of the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority(formerly the PLO). The PA never fulfilled its promise to end propaganda attacks and drop the Palestinian National Charter’s call for Israel’s destruction.

In 2000, Prime Minister Barak offered Yasser Arafat full sovereignty over 97% of the West Bank, a corridor to Gaza, and a capitol in the Arab section of Jerusalem. Arafat said NO. In 2008, PA President Abbas nixed virtually the same offer from Prime Minister Olmert. In 2005, Prime Minister Sharon unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. Taken over by terrorist Hamas, they turned dismantled Jewish communities into launching sites for suicide bombers and 8,000+ rockets into Israel proper. In 2010, Prime Minister Netanyahu renewed offers of unconditional negotiations leading to a Palestinian State, but Palestinians refused, demanding more unilateral Israeli concessions, including a total freeze of all Israeli construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Another half truth, but mostly lie. Let's call this above quote Lie #4.

Land for Peace? The last 'generous deal' by Israel was purported by Israelis to be from Bill Clinton in the Camp David Accords of 2000. In that "land for peace deal" Israel would also take control of West Bank aquifers and Palestinians would get a chunk of lifeless desert and a former toxic waste dump. Furthermore, near the end of the private peace talks that followed the Camp David accord, Israel demolished Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem and planned to expropriate more land of Palestinians for a Jewish-Only highway through Palestinian villages.

What the hell kind of deal was that?

Arab countries have tried to broker peace deals quite a few times, US & Israel has rejected and ignored all of them. The media has followed suit and not covered any of the peace initiatives. Furthermore, a peace deal can't be without concessions, for the Arabs and their blood cousins. The 2002 Beirut summit was met with wide support from the international community and even among officials in the US government, like former national security adviser

Zbigniew Brzezinski, who stated:

"The major elements of an agreement are well known. A key element in any new initiative would be for the U.S. president to declare publicly what, in the view of this country, the basic parameters of a fair and enduring peace ought to be. These should contain four principal elements: 1967 borders, with minor, reciprocal and agreed-upon modifications; compensation in lieu of the right of return for Palestinian refugees; Jerusalem as real home to two capitals; and a nonmilitarized Palestinian state. Something more might be needed to deal with Israeli security concerns about turning over territory to a Palestinian government incapable of securing Israel against terrorist activity. That could be dealt with by deploying an international peacekeeping force, such as one from NATO, which could not only replace Israeli security but train Palestinian troops to become effective."

What was left out of the peace deal with the right of return of the refugees, which was said to be negotiable between the Palestinians and the Israelis. The US and Israel has found their way out of every peace deal.

Take for instance in the instance in 1988 during the beginning of the 1st Intifada. Arafat addressed a UN assembly in Geneva and the US/Israel side responded back that Arafat hasn't agreed to their terms which were:

1. Acceptance of Resolution 242 and 338
2. Recognize Israel's right to exist
3. Rejection of terrorism in all it's forms

What was so important about 242 and 388? Well it called for "ALL" states in the region to "live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries." The PLO had agreed to this resolution back in 1976, but the resolution was only meant for established states.

So Arafat would only agree if the US and Israel also agreed to the UN resolutions which gave the Palestinians a state alongside Israel with national self-determination. US and Israel rejected it and called Arafat "ambiguous" for not accepting their demands.

If Arafat accepted it, he would concede not only that Palestinians needed to leave their own lands, but they now had no formal right to it anymore. If the Palestinians defended themselves when the Israelis demolished their homes, that would mean that the Palestinians have now broken their agreement. Just like the 2000 Camp David accords which were reputed to be the most 'gracious' of concessions ever. In actuality it gave the Palestinians less than before and worse yet, enforced everything they hated about living under occupation. Arab nations rallied again after the summit and created a new offer for the Israelis, but they rejected it again. There is an Arab summit right now trying to land a peace deal but it has been largely ignored by the press and definitely ignored by Israel.


Israel is the main stumbling block to achieving a Two-State solution.

The Palestinians themselves are the only stumbling block to achieving a Two-State solution. With whom should Israel negotiate? With President Abbas, who, for four years, has been barred by Hamas from visiting 1.5 million constituents in Gaza? With his Palestinian Authority, which continues to glorify terrorists and preaches hate in its educational system and the media? With Hamas, whose Iranianbacked leaders deny the Holocaust and use fanatical Jihadist rhetoric to call for Israel’s destruction?

Today, it is a simple fact that while the State of Israel is prepared to recognize all Arab States, secular or Muslim, these states adamantly refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish State and demand “the right of return” of five million so-called Palestinian “refugees” – a sure guarantee for Israel’s demise.

This argument is based on an imaginary state. What STATE are we opposing here? Palestine does not have a state of their own. They have military factions. Israel has barred the Palestinians from forming a military of their own, and a state of their own. Right now the West Bank looks like a prison camp:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2037/49266031westbank464.gif



Though never acknowledged by Jerusalem, it is generally assumed that Israel has nuclear weapons. But unlike Pakistan, India, and North Korea, Israel never conducted nuclear tests.

BS again. They didn't need to do tests as they were helping France build their own nuclear weapons and got all the data they needed. They even tried selling Nuclear Weapons to Apartheid ruled South Africa. One of the key whistle blowers in Israel's nukes was called Anti-semitic and a terrorist by Israelis. Sound familiar Gammy?

What does that have to say about Israel's intentions? They also routinely spy on the US government and have had a hand in the Iraq invasion. One of the main reasons why the US was attacked on 9/11 was US's continual and overwhelming military and economic support of Israel.



The truth is that unlike apartheid South Africa, Israel is a democratic state.

The real truth is Israel tried selling nukes to apartheid age South Africa, its run by a hawkish right-wing ultra nationalist Israeli government that believes all Israelis have to claim their state as a "JEWISH" state. Israeli settlers are protected by the Israeli government and given anything they need to persist. If the Palestinians began establishing settlements in Israel, they would be destroyed. Actually homes built in East Jerusalem are planned for demolition because Israel WILL NOT approve Palestinian homes being bult there. Furthermore, Gaza is a giant, fortified prison camp where smugglers routinely use borders in Egypt to get basic supplies like food and medicine. Since Israel's inception this so called democracy uprooted hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, destroyed their places of worship, and will not grant them Israeli citizenship. Israel a democracy? Must be great if you're an Israeli Jew.

Its 20% Arab minority enjoys all the political, economic and religious rights and freedoms of citizenship, including electing members of their choice to the Knesset (Parliament). Israeli Arabs and Palestinians have standing before Israel’s Supreme Court. In contrast, no Jew may own property in Jordan, no Christian or Jew can visit Islam’s holiest sites in Saudi Arabia.

Must be great to be an Israeli citizen, too bad for the millions of Palestinian refugees who are not allowed to be citizens and not allowed to have their lands given back to them. Thats where Israel wants their Arab population, down to 20%, preferably, even smaller.

Plans to build 1,600 more homes in East Jerusalem prove Israel is ‘Judaizing’ the Holy City.

No, it proves Israel is trying desperately to take as many homes from Palestinians in East Jerusalem to retain that as their own. There are committees in Israel that are privately funded and partly funded by the state of Israel to pressure and evict Palestinians from East Jerusalem and re-populate it with Israeli Settlers. 2ndly, it is almost impossible for Palestinians to get a permit to build homes in East Jerusalem. Israel has big plans for the city, none of which include Palestinians in East Jerusalem.


LIE #7
Israeli policies endanger U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Israel was cheering at the bombing of Baghdad because Neo-Con Zionists, and Zionist politicians in Washington like Joseph Lieberman said that Iraq was the greatest threat to Israel. Now, Iran is the next target. Israel has spied on the US government, sank a US destroyer, tried selling nuclear weapons to Apartheid age South Africa, and one of the biggest stumbling blocks to Peace. With their continued subjugation and oppression of the Palestinians they have fired up religious fundamentalists across the world in fighting the United States and her allies.

A resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict would benefit everyone, including the U.S.

Finally something we agree on! Too bad its not your argument, but a copy and paste rhetoric from a stupid op-ed article.


Israeli policies are the cause of worldwide anti-Semitism.

That's kind of short-sighted as Anti-Semitism has existed since pre-Biblical times. Not sure who is making such a stupid argument. Current hatred of Jews by the Arab world on the other hand is directly related to the Israel-Palestinian conflict.





Yet, Richard Goldstone, a South African Jewish jurist, signed a document prepared by investigators whose main qualification was rabid anti-Israel bias. He accepted every anonymous libel against the IDF. But he insisted that hearings in Gaza be televised, guaranteeing that fearful Palestinians would never testify about Hamas’ use of civilians as human shields and their hiding of weapons in mosques and hospitals. Harvard Professor Alan Dershowitz denounced Goldstone’s Report as a modern “blood libel” accusing Israeli soldiers of crimes they never committed.

ots of detailed atrocities committed by the Israelis can be read in the book:

Punishing a Nation: Israeli Human Rights Violations during the Palestinian Uprising. It was compiled by mostly Palestinian lawyers of the Al-Haq foundation.

A preview can be seen here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=kbT...page&q&f=false

This foundation was targeted by the Israelis as a terrorist organization but was rejected by the US, UN, and the European Union.

Lots of damning evidence is actually from Israelis themselves, like the Shahak papers published by the Israeli League for Human and Civil Rights and the writer Israel Shahak, who was loved by many Israelis and Arabs; taken out of context by anti Semitic groups, and hated by Zionists because of his caustic views towards Israeli chauvinism.

There are also testimonies by former Israeli soldiers which were published in Israeli press , but not covered by American press.

Those testimonies of atrocity are meticulously sourced by a former Zionist, master Hebrew linguist, and well known anarchist, Noam Chomsky. One of his comments at a debate with Alan Dershowitz (the guy who tried to discredit the Shahak papers) is a warning to people like you who think perpetuating the war and stereotypes is the only solution:

"I'm quoting the warning of the four former heads of Israel's Shin Bet Security Service. "There are clear alternatives, and if that march to catastrophe continues, we will have only ourselves to blame."


The only hope for peace is a single, bi-national state, eliminating the Jewish State of Israel.

The One-State solution, promoted by academics, is a non-starter because it would eliminate the Jewish homeland.

No, it would guarantee it. See this is the problem with the Ultra nationalists. You want to run Israel, but you don't want Palestinians to be a part of it. Make Israel a true secular democracy with freedom and liberty for all and this conflict will be over.


In 2010, most Middle East experts believe that the only hope for enduring peace is two states with defined final borders. But too many diplomats, pundits, academics and church leaders ignore the fact that current polls show that while most Israelis favor a Two-State solution, most Palestinians continue to oppose it.

They already agreed to it. How can you make a two state solution work when Israel keeps changing the borders to their favor and forcibly evicting people from their homes??

[Gamma Ray]

Again, I have MS on ignore so any responses are not being seen by me. I would totally be up for a continued debate, but I don't have the energy to deal with someone who clearly only cares about "human rights" when they are "violated" in Israel. That is clear anti-semitism (oh, I mean anti-Zionism [which MLK equated to the former]) and I have yet to see any denial of that or the same passion and fury about the atrocities occurring in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iran, etc.

I see it all the time and eventually the truth comes out unintentionally, or even scarier, intentionally.

[Midnyte_Sun]

I have yet to see any denial of that or the same passion and fury about the atrocities occurring in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iran, etc.


O Gammy give it a rest already.

Everybody knows your beliefs such as Palestinians don't exist, that Muslims are all terrorists, who thinks war is the only answer, and who has PM'ed me the past few months calling me names and trying to equate me with Al-Qaeda for simply having an opposing opinion on the situation in Israel and Palestine.

You seriously haven't seen me talk about other countries? That's because you haven't been reading my posts, only reacting. I actually spoke about atrocities occurring in the Greater Middle East and our money that goes to financing it, I have also tried to stimulate discussion about the peace talks with you but instead you like to post videos from the IDF and equate all Palestinians with terrorism.

[Kelly]

Come on guys, cool it down......

[hippie_hunter]

There is absolutely no need for this to get personal :o

[Gamma Ray]

I'm guessing he said I hate all Muslims, which is absolutely preposterous considering several of my friends are Muslim. I'm sure he didn't deny what I said, though...

Oh well. I guess I'll never know. It's amazing that even through ignoring him he's still managing to start.




News today about renewed Schalit talks:
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=191609

Hamas still insistent on Israel releasing hundreds of terrorists. Gilad Schalit, of course, is a kidnapped soldier who has been in captivity for years without basic human needs being provided for him, yet somehow all of these flotillas don't seem to mention that when they talk about human rights.

[Kelly]

Gamma IF YOU ARE GOING TO PUT HIM ON IGNORE.....THEN IGNORE HIM.

It is ridiculous to have him on ignore and then talk about what you THINK he has said.

[Carcharodon]

Really? That seems pretty par for the course for Gamma.

[Gamma Ray]

Really? That seems pretty par for the course for Gamma.

ummm... Who are you? :whatever:

[Gamma Ray]

Very interesting article about an Arab officer in the IDF:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3968706,00.html


"The Arab sector thinks it's second rate here, but to get privileges one has to give and not just receive. The state protects its citizens even if they don’t serve – my parents live off income support. You must contribute to the country you live off. What other country would have an Arab Knesset member, who is being paid by the state, promoting the interests of the Islamic movement and screwing the promotion of the sector it is supposed to represent?"

"The Arab sector is like a herd. It doesn't think by itself and is affected by various radical movements. Most youngsters don't have anything to do with themselves. They run around the streets, wasting their time and that's only if they finished school. Service in the army is educating, it gives you structure, order – that's what young people are missing here."

[Carcharodon]

ummm... Who are you? :whatever:Somebody who has read your inane babbling over the past few weeks. That's who.

[hippie_hunter]

Somebody who has read your inane babbling over the past few weeks. That's who.
There's no need to insult people here. Take it down a notch.

[Carcharodon]

There's no need to insult people here. Take it down a notch....so as long as I'm indirectly insulting, it's okay? Yeah, whatever. You guys have interesting standards.

[Gamma Ray]

Somebody who has read your inane babbling over the past few weeks. That's who.

Right... MY inane babbling. I'm guessing you don't even bother reading what I write. Why don't you continue your role as silent observer? You come off smarter that way.


http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=191736

Once again, it's the Arabs, not Israel who end the talks. Why should Israel freeze building in Pisgat Zev and Ramot - two neighborhoods that are considered across the board to be Israeli and totally Jewish. Nobody in the media actually reports that, or could even point to the locations on a map. Also, why should Israel continue a freeze that lasted 10-months in which there was not even discussions of talks. It's pathetic how blind the media is to that.

[Carcharodon]

Right... MY inane babbling.Yes. Which part of that confused you? Your distorted view of reality and steadfast tendency to fall back on antisemitism as some cure-all argument have led me to that conclusion. You can accuse me of not reading your posts, but you can't change reality.

o7

[hippie_hunter]

...so as long as I'm indirectly insulting, it's okay? Yeah, whatever. You guys have interesting standards.

Or how about no insulting at all. This thread is getting out of hand. Even if you don't agree with him, there is no need to call his opinions inane babbling.

And Gamma, stop fanning the flames. This is the last chance. Lets all be adults here and act like it.

[Gamma Ray]

Yes. Which part of that confused you? Your distorted view of reality and steadfast tendency to fall back on antisemitism as some cure-all argument have led me to that conclusion. You can accuse me of not reading your posts, but you can't change reality.

o7


Your post keep changing, but yes that is my best defense. I'll let the mods take care of the trolls.

[Carcharodon]

Or how about no insulting at all.LOL you guys have a looooot of posts to edit.

[hippie_hunter]

LOL you guys have a looooot of posts to edit.

We're only human :csad:

[Schlosser85]

Your post keep changing, but yes that is my best defense. I'll let the mods take care of the trolls.


Irony...

[Carcharodon]

We're only human :csad:I meant "infract" rather than "edit." But you're right. I'll back off. My bad.

[Gamma Ray]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/10/19/israel.tourism.conference/index.html

Every day it's the same whining. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. It's not a secret. Instead of slamming Israel for every thing it does, why not bring stability to your people?

[Midnyte_Sun]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/10/19/israel.tourism.conference/index.html

Every day it's the same whining. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. It's not a secret. Instead of slamming Israel for every thing it does, why not bring stability to your people?

The article makes perfect sense. Israel, if you want to raise the infrastructure of Jerusalem and cooperate in Economic benefits to the city, please for God's sake don't demolish the homes of the Palestinian people that live in East Jerusalem and build Israel-only roads and Israeli Museums in their place. The land is occupied and you are annexing it illegally. There is no dispute in this internationally.

[Midnyte_Sun]

A Butcher is Remembered

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9886/610xbm.jpg

""I choose to take Sharon because Sharon is kind of an open nerve in Israeli society, which activated all the spectrum of emotional feelings to what being an Israeli is," he told Reuters news agency. A life-size sculpture of former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is due to be unveiled at a gallery in Tel Aviv. As defence minister, Mr Sharon masterminded Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. During the invasion, Lebanese Christian militiamen allied to Israel massacred hundreds of Palestinians in two refugee camps under Israeli control.

Source: BBC

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I'd like to add he was one of the triggers for the 2nd intifada, created the apartheid barrier walls between Israel and the Palestinian territory. He's currently living on life support for the past four years and hasn't regained motor functions or conciousness. Karma is a *****.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Meanwhile today:

Israeli Settlers Raze More Palestinian Fields

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/5372/610x2o.jpg

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1824/610x1m.jpg

Palestinian firemen extinguish fire from a Palestinian olive tree field after it was set ablaze by Jewish settlers in the West Bank village of Hussan, near the Israeli settlement of Beitar Illit (background on 1st picture) on October19, 2010. Jewish settlers who vandalise Palestinian trees are not being brought to justice, with police inquiries repeatedly failing to lead to prosecutions, a human rights group said.

Source: Getty

[hippie_hunter]

A Butcher is Remembered

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9886/610xbm.jpg

""I choose to take Sharon because Sharon is kind of an open nerve in Israeli society, which activated all the spectrum of emotional feelings to what being an Israeli is," he told Reuters news agency. A life-size sculpture of former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is due to be unveiled at a gallery in Tel Aviv. As defence minister, Mr Sharon masterminded Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. During the invasion, Lebanese Christian militiamen allied to Israel massacred hundreds of Palestinians in two refugee camps under Israeli control.

Source: BBC

---

I'd like to add he was one of the triggers for the 2nd intifada, created the apartheid barrier walls between Israel and the Palestinian territory. He's currently living on life support for the past four years and hasn't regained motor functions or conciousness. Karma is a *****.

While Sharon isn't an innocent man, he was the closest thing to happen for Israeli/Palestinian peace before he went into a coma. That really happened at the worst time possible. Same thing with Rabin.

[Midnyte_Sun]

He did too little too late. Yitzak Rabin on the other hand had a bat chance in hell in getting the Israelis to accept a two state solution. We will never know how successful he'd be with Arafat since illegal settlement building and Palestinian home demolition was still occurring at a constant rate.

[Gamma Ray]

While Sharon isn't an innocent man, he was the closest thing to happen for Israeli/Palestinian peace before he went into a coma. That really happened at the worst time possible. Same thing with Rabin.

Sharon giving Gush Katif to Gaza was one of the biggest flops of peace negotiating in history. It was and still is a disaster for Israel.

[Gamma Ray]

Twelve Palestinians were injured from an explosion at a Hamas Kassam rocket training site in the southern Gaza Strip. Five children and three women were among the casualties.
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=192109

Why exactly are there women and children at a training site? Were they practicing with human shields?

[Midnyte_Sun]

Sharon giving Gush Katif to Gaza was one of the biggest flops of peace negotiating in history. It was and still is a disaster for Israel.

Israeli settlers shouldn't have built settlements there in the first place.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israeli settlers set fire to Palestinian Girls School

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Palestinian school children stand in front of a school that was vandalised in the West Bank village of Sawiya south of Nablus October 20, 2010. Local Palestinians said that Jewish settlers from the area set fire and vandalised the school with Hebrew graffiti reading "regards from the hills." The incident appears to be the latest action in a campaign that Israeli settlers, who live on hilly outposts nearby, call the "price tag." They say it is their response to moves by the Israeli government to remove unauthorized settlements or restrict settlement construction.

Source: Haaretz and Reuters

[Gamma Ray]

http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowImage.ashx?ID=150840

Poll: 41% of Palestinians support resuming the Intifada. Only 30% support continuing talks, as opposed to 78% of Israelis, according to joint Hebrew U.-Palestinian Center for Policy survey.

Now TIME, who doesn't want peace? :doh:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=192232

[Midnyte_Sun]

A poll of less than 2000 people, of which over half of them came from the blockaded Gaza strip, the Occupied West bank and the besieged East Jerusalem. Was that really surprising? Where were the Israelis polled from?

[Midnyte_Sun]

Human Rights Groups and Palestinians continue Protest of East Jerusalem home demolitions

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Delegates of The Elders group of retired prominent world figures: US President Jimmy Carter (L), Ireland's former president and UN high commissioner for human rights Mary Robinson (C) and Indian activist Ela Bhatt (R), meet in a protest tent with Palestinian residents at the flashpoint east Jerusalem neighbourhood of Silwan on October 21, 2010.

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Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter (R) holds a Palestinian baby girl during a visit of the Elders Delegation to the East Jerusalem neighbourhood of Silwan October 21, 2010. The mostly Arab neighborhood of Silwan is a frequent flashpoint between Palestinians and Israelis. The Elders, a group of retired world leaders, arrived in the East Jerusalem neighborhood to provide assistance to Palestinians facing the prospect of having their homes demolished.


http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/1509/610x1f.jpg

Young Palestinian stone throwers overlook a protest tent between the Arab east Jerusalem neighbourhoods of Silwan and Al-Bustan on October 17, 2010 during clashes with Israeli forces in protest against a decision by the Jerusalem city council to remove the tent from the strife-torn distric which was set up to show the local's opposition against Israeli municipal plans to level 22 homes to make way for a new tourism park in the area.

[hippie_hunter]

Sharon giving Gush Katif to Gaza was one of the biggest flops of peace negotiating in history. It was and still is a disaster for Israel.

There shouldn't have been Jewish settlements there to begin with.

[Gamma Ray]

There shouldn't have been Jewish settlements there to begin with.

Right.... And the Jewish community that lived there for 1500+ years but was expelled due to Arab rioting in 1929 shouldn't have lived there either, right? :whatever:

I don't understand the logic here. Palestinians deserve the right to return to their homes, but Jews do not? Arabs are given free reign to destroy synagogues, homes, coffee shops, but only when Israel does these things it is condemned?? It's absolutely sickening how uninformed people are.

Synagogue destroyed in Gush Katif mere hours after the Jewish expulsion:
http://i52.tinypic.com/33mmjus.jpg

[hippie_hunter]

Right.... And the Jewish community that lived there for 1500+ years but was expelled due to Arab rioting in 1929 shouldn't have lived there either, right? :whatever:

I don't understand the logic here. Palestinians deserve the right to return to their homes, but Jews do not? Arabs are given free reign to destroy synagogues, homes, coffee shops, but only when Israel does these things it is condemned?? It's absolutely sickening how uninformed people are.

Synagogue destroyed in Gush Katif mere hours after the Jewish expulsion:
http://i52.tinypic.com/33mmjus.jpg

Arabs were living there about a 1000 years before the Jews came back. Seriously, your logic is like the Native Americans coming to my house and demanding that they take it because a 1000 years ago, their ancestors lived on it.

Why can't they both have it? The Palestinian Arabs with the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, the Jews having the rest of the former Mandate of Palestine, and they both share Jeruslalem?

[Gamma Ray]

What?? Your logic dictates that as long as someone lives on land now, it's theirs. And using that logic, Israel is completely justified in building in Judea and Samaria. You also always manage to discount a Jewish right to the land and a historical Jewish presence in the land.

Gaza and "the West Bank" don't work as one country. They would have to be as seperate as the are now, unless you could build a road running through Israel (which makes no sense and would be a huge burden). As for Jerusalem, a city cannot function being split up. It doesn't make any sense, and if you'd ever been in Jerusalem, you'd understand the impossible dynamic and the illogic in dividing Jerusalem.




More AP bias against Israel:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/10/ap-biased-nah.html

[hippie_hunter]

What?? Your logic dictates that as long as someone lives on land now, it's theirs. And using that logic, Israel is completely justified in building in Judea and Samaria. You also always manage to discount a Jewish right to the land and a historical Jewish presence in the land.
I'm not discounting their right to be there. There are millions of Jews in the former Mandate of Palestine and they have every right to live there just like the Arabs do. What you're doing is completely disregarding the rights that Arabs who have been living there as well. They both deserve to live there and both deserve their own nation. But the Jews don't have the right to just barge in where Arabs are living and just take what isn't theirs. It's like I said, if the Native Americans just came barging in my house and took it because their ancestors used to live there.

Gaza and "the West Bank" don't work as one country. They would have to be as seperate as the are now, unless you could build a road running through Israel (which makes no sense and would be a huge burden).
I guess that the United States doesn't work with Alaska being separated from the mainland. Or Russia with Kalingrad separated from Russia. Or many other nations that have exclaves.

As for Jerusalem, a city cannot function being split up. It doesn't make any sense, and if you'd ever been in Jerusalem, you'd understand the impossible dynamic and the illogic in dividing Jerusalem.
I'm not at all saying that Jerusalem should be divided. It should be whole as an international city that respects all faiths. Most nations don't even recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, not even the United States.

Not only that, but Jerusalem has been divided before and it was fine and even now, it's like two different cities with the modernized, completely Jewish West Jerusalem and the holy, mixed population (with Arabs forming a slight majority), East Jerusalem.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Right.... And the Jewish community that lived there for 1500+ years but was expelled due to Arab rioting in 1929 shouldn't have lived there either, right? :whatever:

I don't understand the logic here. Palestinians deserve the right to return to their homes, but Jews do not? Arabs are given free reign to destroy synagogues, homes, coffee shops, but only when Israel does these things it is condemned?? It's absolutely sickening how uninformed people are.

First off, the Synagogues in Gaza were built by the illegal Israeli settlers. Sharon asked for them to be dismantled, but because of time, political, and money issues they decided to let them stand after the Israeli settlers were evacuated. Some settlers, as you well know, burned down their settlements so the Palestinians could not use them.

As for the 1930s, Egypt invaded Israel after peace talks failed due to Zionist terrorists (one of them was your 1st President's bodyguard) assassinated the peace talks mediator Count Folk Bernadotte and declared war to take Israel by force. The Zionist terrorists were all released from jail by Israel after the Arab wars.

See Gammy, there are always two sides to this story and it was obvious from the beginning of Israel's inception that they wanted to take all the land and force the Arabs out. Why do you deny the statements from Ben Gurion and other founding fathers of Israel who stated clearly that they had every intention of taking that land? Stop playing the role of the righteous victim.



Synagogue destroyed in Gush Katif mere hours after the Jewish expulsion

Israel's stance was clear, the Synagogues should have been dismantled when the settlers evacuated, but they had monetary, time, and political pressure from the Settler groups so they left them, and other settlements behind. As I mentioned before, some Israelis burned down their own settlements as to not allow Palestinians a chance to live in them. Although those were illegal, the Israelis demolished hundreds of historically established Palestinian mosques when the Palestinians evacuated their lands in what is now Israel. One of those mosques was over 1000 years old. Soon after, the Israeli settlers moved in and those Palestinians now live in refugee camps where people like you claim they never existed, nor lived there.

[Gamma Ray]

Hamas Wants to Build Schools Next to their Bases
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=192368

I would say they've sunk to a new low, but this isn't anything new. Of course, martyrdom has "become an industry" in Gaza: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y

It's not much of a loss anyway. One less Gazan in school means one less Gazan learning to hate Israel and desire martyrdom.

http://a.yfrog.com/img831/4682/hamaschildbombers.jpg http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/82/hamaschildweb.jpg http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/7663/kalashnikovkids.jpg

[GhostPoet]

While this isn't exactly related to Isreal, it sort of is.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE69L2KL20101022

This freaking pisses me off. Obama. You're an idiot.

[Gamma Ray]

What's wrong? It's just the place where Osama Bin Laden is most likely being harbored and a den of terrorism. What could possibly go wrong??!

[GhostPoet]

What's wrong? It's just the place where Osama Bin Laden is most likely being harbored and a den of terrorism. What could possibly go wrong??!

Don't be silly. The terrorists won't use the weapons because everybody loves and respects the great Obama. He can apparently do no wrong...because we're all busy drooling over his awesomeness.

[Midnyte_Sun]

While this isn't exactly related to Isreal, it sort of is.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE69L2KL20101022

This freaking pisses me off. Obama. You're an idiot.

You're right, it is related to Israel:

1. Both received Billions of dollars of aid a year
2. Both are neo-colonial nightmares
3. Both were established by people who thought they needed a promised land
4. Both subjugate and oppress the indigenous and had atrocious wars with them, creating barriers where there were none
5. Both have dangerous nukes in volatile regions
6. Both are religiously radicalized and under the influence of extremists
7. Both commit state-sponsored terrorism

The only difference is that Israel is under better management, gets more money, and has less corruption.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Don't be silly. The terrorists won't use the weapons because everybody loves and respects the great Obama. He can apparently do no wrong...because we're all busy drooling over his awesomeness.

You talking about Israel or Pakistan?

[Midnyte_Sun]

Hamas Wants to Build Schools Next to their Bases

This is definitely repulsive.

Of course, martyrdom has "become an industry" in Gaza: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y

So has targeting and killing Palestinian kids by the IDF. BTW, I notice how repulsed you are at the idea of Palestinians using human shields. Why have you been so silent on the Israelis doing the exact same thing and been charged with publically? Also, why are settlers armed and dangerous, aren't they 'human shields' against Palestinians, or should we call them human 'weapons' since they not only take up defensive positions on top of occupied hills, but they routinely attack the Palestinians.

It's not much of a loss anyway. One less Gazan in school means one less Gazan learning to hate Israel and desire martyrdom.



Again, like you give a rats **** about the situation in Gaza. If it was up to you, all the settlements would still be there and Gaza would continue to be a fortified prison.

[Kelly]

He has you on ignore....you might want to follow his lead.

[Carcharodon]

So has targeting and killing Palestinian kids by the IDF. BTW, I notice how repulsed you are at the idea of Palestinians using human shields. Why have you been so silent on the Israelis doing the exact same thing and been charged with publically? Also, why are settlers armed and dangerous, aren't they 'human shields' against Palestinians, or should we call them human 'weapons' since they not only take up defensive positions on top of occupied hills, but they routinely attack the Palestinians.Israel is incapable of wrong-doing, M_S. Just ask Gamma. :up:

:whatever:

[Gamma Ray]

Israel is incapable of wrong-doing, M_S. Just ask Gamma. :up:

:whatever:

Instead of contributing to the discussion (ever) you choose to attack me. Are YOU capable of doing ANYTHING aside from that?

[Hobgoblin]

Guys, please keep it civil. There is no need for personal attacks.

[M.E.H.Z.E.B]

Guys, please keep it civil. There is no need for personal attacks.

I'm with Gobby. The next person who decides to resort to personal attacks will see the wrath of the mod-squad.:cmad:

[Kelly]

Closing the thread for a few days until people can figure out how to have a civil conversation in here....

If you guys take this crap to another thread, I will give you a vacation as well.