The Israel Situation

[cass]

Exactly. It really is the same thing. The big guy stomps on the little guy and then wants to be recognized. That's why situations like this are not so easily resolved. There's been too much hurting on both sides.

Funny how you only mention the "big guy" hurting the little guy, then claim that both sides are hurting. That could be because running into cafes and clubs with dynamite vests, getting rewarded by Saddam Hussein, and having the support of known terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas isn't very sympathetic? Israel's offered the path to peace. And instead was slapped in the face.

[Topdawg]

Youre right, its my land.

you really think youre funny dont you?

[Darthphere]

you really think youre funny dont you?


I dont think it, I know it. Get in line son.

[squeekness]

Funny how you only mention the "big guy" hurting the little guy, then claim that both sides are hurting. That could be because running into cafes and clubs with dynamite vests, getting rewarded by Saddam Hussein, and having the support of known terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas isn't very sympathetic? Israel's offered the path to peace. And instead was slapped in the face.I am not saying that any one person is right or wrong here. Both sides have done bad things. Isreal dumped Palestinians into tent camps where they died by the thousands from improper shelter and poor sanitation and the Paelstinains have responded by suicide bombings and acts of terrorism. It's time for both sides to stop what they are doing, but until both sides agree enough is enough, it won't happen.

[Topdawg]

I dont think it, I know it. Get in line son.


you believe your own lies...thats sad.

[Phaser]

Funny how you only mention the "big guy" hurting the little guy, then claim that both sides are hurting. That could be because running into cafes and clubs with dynamite vests, getting rewarded by Saddam Hussein, and having the support of known terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas isn't very sympathetic? Israel's offered the path to peace. And instead was slapped in the face.

It's equally hard to sympathize with Israel when women and children routinely get killed in demolitions, raids and air-strikes to assassinate Hamas leaders.

[Darthphere]

you believe your own lies...thats sad.


You hurt my feelings, really. Continue with your cry of the complete destruction of millions of people. I guess that makes you look really cool.

[cass]

It's equally hard to sympathize with Israel when women and children routinely get killed in demolitions, raids and air-strikes to assassinate Hamas leaders.

But it's odd how Palestinians purposely target women and children while Israel targets terrorists, unlike some people, I have no sympathy for terrorists.

[Phaser]

Isreal dumped Palestinians into tent camps where they died by the thousands from improper shelter and poor sanitation and the Paelstinains have responded by suicide bombings and acts of terrorism.

And let's not forget the root cause for this mess - Israel holding thousands of Palestenians as prisoners (that also include women and children) without charges or trial.

[cass]

It's time for both sides to stop what they are doing, but until both sides agree enough is enough, it won't happen.

Israel made the conditions to stop: return the soldiers, recognize it's right to exist. And it's over. Funny how instead, Hamas and Hezbollah keep fighting, it's like they want to exterminate Israel or something,....oh wait.....they do. :down

[Phaser]

But it's odd how Palestinians purposely target women and children while Israel targets terrorists, unlike some people, I have no sympathy for terrorists.

Similiarly, I have no sympathy for a government that recklessly and carelessly plans assaults in which innocent bystanders always get killed just so it can achieve it's own goals. And let's not forget the routine illegal occupation of Palestenian territories and demolition of civilian targets such as homes and schools.

[Topdawg]

You hurt my feelings, really. Continue with your cry of the complete destruction of millions of people. I guess that makes you look really cool.

the reason why i said what i said is, because israel always starts trouble first with the palestinians now with Lebanon.

[Darthphere]

Similiarly, I have no sympathy for a government that recklessly and carelessly plans assaults in which innocent bystanders always get killed just so it can achieve it's own goals.


Do you live in America?

[Phaser]

Do you live in America?

Why do you ask?

[cass]

Similiarly, I have no sympathy for a government that recklessly and carelessly plans assaults in which innocent bystanders always get killed just so it can achieve it's own goals.

But you root on those who run around as suicide bombers SPECIFICALLY attacking civilians. Sorry, when you're attacked after offering resolution after resolution you have a right to defend yourself. And unfortunately there's collateral damage. The Palestinians have brought this on themselves.

[Darthphere]

the reason why i said what i said is, because israel always starts trouble first with the palestinians now with Lebanon.


Why would they purposefully start trouble? Israel isnt stupid, theyre not going to attack someone because they had an itch in their foot. Provide actual facts and statements not this wild thrown out comments that make you look ingorant.

Me on the other hand dont really care about the situation, just surprised by so much hate going on around here. I dont think anyone should be bombed to death like you out it,at the end of the day it really solves nothing.

[Darthphere]

Why do you ask?


Just curious.

[Topdawg]

Why would they purposefully start trouble? Israel isnt stupid, theyre not going to attack someone because they had an itch in their foot. Provide actual facts and statements not this wild thrown out comments that make you look ingorant.

Me on the other hand dont really care about the situation, just surprised by so much hate going on around here. I dont think anyone should be bombed to death like you out it,at the end of the day it really solves nothing.

if you dont care then why do you keep defending israel?

and youre not exactly providing facts either so:o

[Darthphere]

if you dont care then why do you keep defending israel?

and youre not exactly providing facts either so:o


Im not defedning Israel, im defending the fact that killing millions of people and calling upon that is idiotic. And thats a fact.:o

[Addendum]

But you root on those who run around as suicide bombers SPECIFICALLY attacking civilians. Sorry, when you're attacked after offering resolution after resolution you have a right to defend yourself. And unfortunately there's collateral damage. The Palestinians have brought this on themselves.
Since when is dissent "rooting on"?

Are you using the dictionary, edited by Karl Rove? ;)

[cass]

if you dont care then why do you keep defending israel?



Because he has something you lack, common sense.

[Phaser]

But you root on those who run around as suicide bombers SPECIFICALLY attacking civilians. Sorry, when you're attacked after offering resolution after resolution you have a right to defend yourself. And unfortunately there's collateral damage. The Palestinians have brought this on themselves.

Israel's hands aren't clean from civilian blood either. Forgive for not buying the asinine excuse of "collateral damage" when the Palestenians end up with at least 5-10 civilian casualties everyday. Add to that what I had mentioned above about holding Palestenian prisoners without charges or trial, demolishing homes and schools and illegal occupation of Palestenian territories...are you kidding me?

[Phaser]

Just curious.

The answer is, no, I do not live in the U.S.

[Darthphere]

The answer is, no, I do not live in the U.S.


Ah ok. I assume youre against holding prisoners in Guantanamo Bay as well?

[Phaser]

Ah ok. I assume youre against holding prisoners in Guantanamo Bay as well?

If it's about holding someone prisoner without charges or trial, then yes.

[InsaneMembrane]

It's equally hard to sympathize with Israel when women and children routinely get killed in demolitions, raids and air-strikes to assassinate Hamas leaders.

Don't you think that has something to do with the fact Hamas routinely sets up shop in densely populated civilian areas

[Phaser]

Don't you think that has something to do with the fact Hamas routinely sets up shop in densely populated civilian areas

Uhh, so? Does that give Israel the license to say "**** civilian lives, we gotta get them terrorists". Wow, taking innocent lives to save innocent lives. Anyone see the paradox in that logic?

[raybia]

Actually if "Islam" as we know it born of Mohammed, Mohammed was a decendant of (old testament Genesis) Ishmael.

Now God said of Ishameal " Gen:17 20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Gen:17 21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Now the Ishamael decendant Mohammed founded modern Islam, the catch with the whole deal is that back in Genesis Abraham had 2 sons Ishmael and Issac, Ishmael even though he was the first born was born illigitimate out of the will of God, now Issac was born in the will of God and was given the right to the inheritance even though he was the 2nd born son.

Please provide your proof that Ishmael was illegitimate. Hagar was Sarah's hand-maiden who she offered to Abraham, as a 2nd wife since who was unable to conceive a child at the time.
Abraham in all three monothestic religions of Islam, Christianity and Judaism is highly regarded and considered their father and is also attributed being of high upright moral character so to say that Abraham had an illegitimate son is totally out of character and inconsistent based on everything we know of him from the Islamic and judo/christian traditions.


Later in Genesis Ishmael and his mother are sent away......now this spawns the reason Muslims are taught in the Koran to hate Jews and Christians,....because the decendants of Ishmael (aka Mohammed) were so bitter that they were not given the inheritance of God they grew a deep hatred for Jews and Christians that were promised the inheritance of God.

Have you even read the Qur'an or is this just what you heard or read on some anti-Islamic website? Please provide proof that Muslims (1.3 billion of us) hate Jews and Christians and provide proof that the Qur'an teaches Muslims to feel hatred towards these two religious groups.

Also your rational is flawed. Why would the decendants of Ishmael be bitter and have anomosity towards Issac's decendants when G-d himself told Abraham, "I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation."



now the Jewish people that never accepted Christ are living by the law of the old testament and they will not recieve the inheritance either unless they accept Jesus as savior (they just see him as a profit instead of the fullfillment of the prophetic word that a savior will come) the Jewish people are still waiting for a savior.

So, basically to relate it to modern Joe-shmo terms the Muslims are driven under the belief that they will gain the true inheritance of God when they die, and anyone else that claims they will shall be converted or eliminated.

What you are some Muslim expert where you know what drives 1.3 billion people on the soley basis that they claim Islam as a religion? There is a name for this: Its called stereotyping.

It works like this, "So, basically to relate it to modern joe-shmo terms the _____< name group of choice>______ are driven under the belief...

G-d remarks in the Qur'an, "And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make you an leader to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also leaders from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of wrongdoers."

Again, provide proof of your assertion that this is my motivation and agenda as a Muslim.

Jews and Christains claim to be the ones getting the inheritance so Muslims particularly target them out,..but in other parts of the world Muslims reguyardless of what you believe still only give you the option change or be eliminated.look at France, and there begingin to try and take over England....also see Darfur,Mogadishu,...anywhere really.... The 3rd world nations just don't get the press Israel and the US do when it comes to fighting Muslims advancement.

Muslims begininng to take over England? What is your definition of taking over? The fact that there is a growing Muslim population there? You really have a bad case of Islamophobia.

Again considering how many Muslims there are in the world and in every corner, if your claims had any truth, it would be WWIII right now. The Majority of Muslims are peaceful, law abiding citizens but you and others with an agenda intentionally put the spotlight on the minority bad element within the Muslim community and present all of us as extremists, fanatics, and terrorist.

Your comments are sickening and truly distrubing if you, if fact, truly believe them. If so, then you are the extremist and you need help getting un-indoctrinated.


Whether you like it or not the whole world is in on the Muslim,Jew,Christian....battle the 2000 year old bible teaches about....

You are proof that EVERY religion has its fanatics.

[War Lord]

a.- no Jonty, and you can't mean that unless you have no knowledge about the History of Israel

b.- actually as covered in the first pages of the thread, they have already exchanged hostages in the past, so it wasn't as you say a "pretext"

c.- again, it doesn't apply because it doesn't count WHY the hostility towards the country began.

that's kind of key.

A. I know enough of the history of Israel to know that there's no real rhyme or reason for them to do this. Israel has always been attacked first.

B. Yes they have and look where that has gotten them.

C. Why the hostility began begins in 1949 when Israel was given the land by Britain under the UN, that's it. Israel has been out of Lebanon previously since about 1999 or 2000 and all things were quiet there until Hezbollah fired a ton of missiles into Israel and kidnapped Israel's soldiers and citizens.

[War Lord]

Islam is a much newer relegion than Chrsitiananity. A few hundred years ago Christians were slaughtering Muslims by the thousands over a cup, and even more recently were burning fellow Christians alive. That no longer happens. Christians haven't been so peaceful in their pasts either, but I think they've come a long way. So what you just said is pretty stupid.

A few hundred years ago, Christianity was under the Islamic boot over in Europe.

You guys like to blame Christianity for the Crusades and hardly ever ask why the Crusades happened.

[War Lord]

Must defend itself from who? who attacked israel? Israel started it.
To "defend yourself" you have to be attacked by someone.

Hezbollah attacked Israel first when it lobbied a bunch of missiles and crossed into Israel's territory to kidnap Israel's soldiers.

[War Lord]

[quote=War Lord]The difference is that Israel has never attacked first.
[quote]

Israel has never attacked first? hahahahahahahahahahaha you're definitely very funny

Show me one instance where Israel attacked any country without having been attacked by that country or its militants first.

[War Lord]

Uhh, so? Does that give Israel the license to say "**** civilian lives, we gotta get them terrorists". Wow, taking innocent lives to save innocent lives. Anyone see the paradox in that logic?

You could use whatever influence you have to get the militants to move out of the densely populated areas, so Israel can attack them freely without worrying about innocent civilians.

You could also use whatever influence you have to get those countries that tolerate terrorists in their midst to stop tolerating them and get rid of them so innocent civilians aren't at risk.

Mind you, the fact that countries tolerate terrorists in their midst so those terrorist organizations can attack other countries without a whit of protest are just as responsible for the attacks themselves.

[raybia]

You guys like to blame Christianity for the Crusades and hardly ever ask why the Crusades happened.



The First Crusade was launched in 1095 by Pope Urban II to regain control of the sacred city of Jerusalem and the Christian Holy Land from Muslims. What started as an appeal to the French knightly class quickly turned into a wholesale migration and conquest of territory outside of Europe. Both knights and peasants from many different nations of western Europe, with little central leadership, travelled over land and by sea towards Jerusalem and captured the city in July 1099, establishing the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the other Crusader states. Although these gains lasted for fewer than two hundred years, the First Crusade was a major turning point in the expansion of Western power, and was the only crusade — in contrast to the many that followed — to achieve its stated goal, which was possession of Jerusalem.


Williston Walker et. al. observes:


Viewed in the light of their original purpose, the Crusades were failures. They made no permanent conquests of the Holy Land. They did not retard the advance of Islam. Far from aiding the Eastern Empire, they hastened its disintegration. They also revealed the continuing inability of Latin Christians to understand Greek Christians, and they hardened the schism between them. They fostered a harsh intolerance between Muslims and Christians, where before there had been a measure of mutual respect. They were marked, and marred, by a recrudescence of anti-Semitism....

[Phaser]

You could use whatever influence you have to get the militants to move out of the densely populated areas, so Israel can attack them freely without worrying about innocent civilians.

You could also use whatever influence you have to get those countries that tolerate terrorists in their midst to stop tolerating them and get rid of them so innocent civilians aren't at risk.

Mind you, the fact that countries tolerate terrorists in their midst so those terrorist organizations can attack other countries without a whit of protest are just as responsible for the attacks themselves.


Normal people in Palestine have more important things to worry about than identifying terrorists in their midst - things such as finding food and shelter, getting a job to provide your family with the most basic necessities, waiting for the next shipment of aid from U.N and other countries, praying that their homes don't get razed, their children get back home safely from school and their family members don't get taken prisoner by the Israeli government.

Your attempt at trying to justify Israel's blatant disregard for innocent Palestenian lives is sickening. As long as Israel continues their careless warfare, the fatalities on the Palestenian side will only serve to create more and more suicide bombers. There's too much blood spilled on both sides now for it to be about something as simplistic as religion. It's about nationalism, but it's also about extracting bloody revenge.

[raybia]

You could use whatever influence you have to get the Israelis to move out of the densely populated areas, so <Hamas>can attack them freely without worrying about innocent civilians.

You could also use whatever influence you have to get those countries that tolerate an illegal occupation in their midst to stop tolerating them and get rid of them so innocent civilians aren't at risk.



Ummm...

[InsaneMembrane]

Uhh, so? Does that give Israel the license to say "**** civilian lives, we gotta get them terrorists". Wow, taking innocent lives to save innocent lives. Anyone see the paradox in that logic?

So Israel is supposed to do what?...let them get away with suicide bombing?

What does that tell the world I can commit whatever terrorist crime I want but as long I hide among civilians I'm free and clear. If Hamas really cared about the people they were trying to liberate they would move out of civilian populations and set up bases where Israel knows it's Hamas and continue their resistance.

Israel needs to release or trie(sp?) those prisoners yes but that doesn't justify what Hamas does, Israel gave them Gaza back which was a step forward but what was Gaza used for?, sending missiles into Israel,that set the Palestinian cause back a couple years, I do believe that a peaceful two-state solution is the only way to go but how does Israel negogiate with a Government that doesn't see you as a country but a Zionist Entity.

And Hezbollah is in no way justified, Israel has 4 lebanese in their jails while Syria has hundreds but which country is Hezbollah "resisting"

[Mr. Walters]

Not really.......

You make it sound like we just fried someone last week. "Even More recently????" What kind of phrasing is that?


Look if you gotta go back over 1200 years to find murderous atrocities on Christians, we are doing pretty good. Right now...... right now......right now.......you can open the newspaper and find Islam fighting everybody.

Bombings in subways,
Beheadings
School Children in Russia murdered
Journalists killed
Soldiers mutilated
Embassies burned
Trains exploding

All of this in one year,,,,,,,heck .....one month.

The Ku Klux Klan who prided themselves on being "white, Protestant Christian" were still lyniching black people in the South in the 1920's. Compared to the Crusdaes a thousand years ago, I call that "more recently."

But that's my point exactly, there are Muslim extremists, but there have also been Christian extremists. To attach a bad name to Islam without looking at the other side of the coin is just plain ignorant.

[War Lord]

Ummm...

So what you're ultimately advocating is a free-for-all for the terrorist groups and Israel's inability to defend itself, because unless you're advocating that every person in the countries surrounding Israel is supportive of terrorist actions, you're substituting of words into my paragraphs does not compute.

[War Lord]

The Ku Klux Klan who prided themselves on being "white, Protestant Christian" were still lyniching black people in the South in the 1920's. Compared to the Crusdaes a thousand years ago, I call that "more recently."

But that's my point exactly, there are Muslim extremists, but there have also been Christian extremists. To attach a bad name to Islam without looking at the other side of the coin is just plain ignorant.

Can you find any information that, "In the name of Christ", the KKK was lynching Blacks, because the terrorists routinely claim they do their actions to the "glory of Allah".

[Topdawg]

Because he has something you lack, common sense.

who's talking to you?:confused:

[raybia]

So Israel is supposed to do what?...let them get away with suicide bombing?

What does that tell the world I can commit whatever terrorist crime I want but as long I hide among civilians I'm free and clear. If Hamas really cared about the people they were trying to liberate they would move out of civilian populations and set up bases where Israel knows it's Hamas and continue their resistance

What a convincing argument! Since you put it that way, I'm all for Israel killing innocent women, children and bystanders. That will send a strong message to Hamas and all of those potential suicide bombers! Since you don't care about your people, we certainly don't care about your people. And we will demonstate that by blowing up your women and children. Not a big loss thought since they will probably blow themselves up one day any way.

And it will send a strong message to the rest of the world too: Hama doesn't play fair so neither will we! Nana nana na na!

[Mr. Walters]

Can you find any information that, "In the name of Christ", the KKK was lynching Blacks, because the terrorists routinely claim they do their actions to the "glory of Allah".

I never said in the name of Christ. But it is common knowledge that they are white christian protestants.

[InsaneMembrane]

What a convincing argument! Since you put it that way, I'm all for Israel killing innocent women, children and bystanders. That will send a strong message to Hamas and all of those potential suicide bombers! Since you don't care about your people, we certainly don't care about your people. And we will demonstate that by blowing up your women and children. Not a big loss thought since they will probably blow themselves up one day any way.

And it will send a strong message to the rest of the world too: Hama doesn't play fair so neither will we! Nana nana na na!

Yep you sure got me! You seem chock full of Ideas what would be playing fair in dealing with Hamas? and why doesn't Hamas move out of civilian populations?

[War Lord]

Normal people in Palestine have more important things to worry about than identifying terrorists in their midst - things such as finding food and shelter, getting a job to provide your family with the most basic necessities, waiting for the next shipment of aid from U.N and other countries, praying that their homes don't get razed, their children get back home safely from school and their family members don't get taken prisoner by the Israeli government.

Your attempt at trying to justify Israel's blatant disregard for innocent Palestenian lives is sickening. As long as Israel continues their careless warfare, the fatalities on the Palestenian side will only serve to create more and more suicide bombers. There's too much blood spilled on both sides now for it to be about something as simplistic as religion. It's about nationalism, but it's also about extracting bloody revenge.

I have better things to than to help the police and authorities identify those who would harm me, my family, and other people, but I would do so in an instant, even at the expense of my life because I know it's the right thing to do and, ultimately, it contributes to my ability to live a life of peace and contentment.

If the Palestineans really want the same thing, you'd think they'd be willing to make the choice to do so rather than elect a government committed to going to war with Israel and, instead, elect a government that is committed to improving the life of its citizens.

It sickens me that, although you claim to be concerned about the citizens of the Gaza strip, Lebanon, Palestine, and other countries, that you don't have any real concern about those within their midst that cause most of their suffering.

[War Lord]

I never said in the name of Christ. But it is common knowledge that they are white christian protestants.

What one claims to be and what one really is can be two different things. Just because a person does certain things, doesn't mean that they are really committed in their heart.

[JLBats]

Geez, does Bush kiss his momma with that mouth?

[InsaneMembrane]

I never said in the name of Christ. But it is common knowledge that they are white christian protestants.

I think that was his point... that they happen to be christians but they weren't doing it because they were christians. I know that Hamas and Hezbollah aren't a reflection of all muslims but to say that Islam has nothing to do with their cause is silly

[Darthphere]

Geez, does Bush kiss his momma with that mouth?


Ha-ha, you saw that too?

[Mr. Walters]

Ok then, but weren't the Crusades in the name of Christ?

[Darthphere]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060717/ap_on_go_pr_wh/g8_summit_bush_overheard;_ylt=ApJI5qUZ7hh19D.7m48S OVqs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

[raybia]

So what you're ultimately advocating is a free-for-all for the terrorist groups and Israel's inability to defend itself, because unless you're advocating that every person in the countries surrounding Israel is supportive of terrorist actions, you're substituting of words into my paragraphs does not compute.


No I'm not advocating a free for all.

I don't have a problem with Israel defending itself, but I have a problem with Israel invading a country and wanton destruction of innocent lives...even if they aren't Israeli or Jewish.

I substituted your words because your argument is weak to the point that it can be said for the other side.

Non-Jewish/Israeli lives are just as valuable as Jewish/Israeli lives. I want Israel to demostrate that and prove to the world that they are more civilized than terrorist groups like Hamas.

More civilized to the extent that they go out of there way to show to the World they care about innocent Palestians more than the groups that claim to represent the Palestians and Palestian liberation.

If they are willing to do that, they will win not only the support of most countries on Earth but also the support of the common people and you will see much of this criticism towards Israel decrease.

[InsaneMembrane]

Ok then, but weren't the Crusades in the name of Christ?

Yes and no...

That was one of my history essay questions... Seljuk Turks had control of the Holy Land and were basically killing any christians that were going on pilgramage to the Holy Land, the Pope didn't do anything about it until the Emperor of Constanopile asked for help from Rome since the turks were moving westwards and attacking Byzantium...some say it was a way for the Pope to gain more power others as way for the Pope to unify the church...others for land because it was younger sons who made up a lot of the armies..other because they were trying to rescue their "brothers in christ" so there really isn't one uniform answer to the question of the crusades...

[InsaneMembrane]

No I'm not advocating a free for all.

I don't have a problem with Israel defending itself, but I have a problem with Israel invading a country and wanton destruction of innocent lives...even if they aren't Israeli or Jewish.

I substituted your words because your argument is weak to the point that it can be said for the other side.

Non-Jewish/Israeli lives are just as valuable as Jewish/Israeli lives. I want Israel to demostrate that and prove to the world that they are more civilized than terrorist groups like Hamas.

More civilized to the extent that they go out of there way to show to the World they care about innocent Palestians more than the groups that claim to represent the Palestians and Palestian liberation.

If they are willing to do that, they will win not only the support of most countries on Earth but also the support of the common people and you will see much of this criticism towards Israel decrease.

I can agree with that.... but my question is how does Israel do that, getting those responsible for terrorist attacks while not harming palestinian civilians at all...

I'm also kind of confused are we talking about Hamas and the Palestinians or Hezbollah and the Lebanese here...

[Mr. Walters]

Interesting. The man knows what he is talking about.

[raybia]

Yep you sure got me! You seem chock full of Ideas what would be playing fair in dealing with Hamas? and why doesn't Hamas move out of civilian populations?


Because Hamas has an agenda, and they have become desperate, uncivilized and don't value human live...And Israel has lowered themselves to Hamas level.

At this point they both in the wrong.

[War Lord]

Ok then, but weren't the Crusades in the name of Christ?

Prior to the Crusades, Muslims invaded Europe and put Europe under its boot. They came very close to conquering all of Europe. For those who weren't Muslim, they had to pay much higher taxes, had to send their virgin daughters as tribute to their Muslim masters, non-Muslims weren't free to practice their religion fully, and other things. It's also one of the factors that sent Columbus to North America in search of wealth to help overthrow Europe's Muslim masters.

The Crusades were a response to almost being completely conquered.

[War Lord]

Because Hamas has an agenda, and they have become desperate, uncivilized and don't value human live...And Israel has lowered themselves to Hamas level.

At this point they both in the wrong.

You're welcome to suggest how Israel could have dealt with the terrorist groups without invading their host countries.

[Phaser]

So Israel is supposed to do what?...let them get away with suicide bombing?

But does that give them a free pass to shed innocent blood along with the terrorists' as well? Do you realize just how counterproductive it is to the Israeli's goals (i.e, if they really want to end the bombings)? Civilian lives will only drive more people to rally for Hamas' cause and give the group fresh new recruits and volunteers for even more retaliatory bombing.

What does that tell the world I can commit whatever terrorist crime I want but as long I hide among civilians I'm free and clear. If Hamas really cared about the people they were trying to liberate they would move out of civilian populations and set up bases where Israel knows it's Hamas and continue their resistance.

That's senseless logic and you know it. I can use the same reasoning to justify Palestenian suicide bombing and claim that they were targeting military and government targets for assasination but civilians always get in the way. And resistance factions have always set up bases from within the populace, not isolated from it - the history of revolutionist groups stands as a testament to that fact.

Israel needs to release or trie(sp?) those prisoners yes but that doesn't justify what Hamas does, Israel gave them Gaza back which was a step forward but what was Gaza used for?, sending missiles into Israel,that set the Palestinian cause back a couple years, I do believe that a peaceful two-state solution is the only way to go but how does Israel negogiate with a Government that doesn't see you as a country but a Zionist Entity.

Like I said earlier, both sides are soaked neck-deep in the blood of innocents. At the moment, the continous retribution they have inflicted on each other has developed into a quagmire, an endless circle of death where it's impossible to pinpoint who exactly is at fault for what incident. Israel tells you it's excursion into the Palestenian territory is a result of Hamas suicide bombers. Palestenians say the suicide-bombing was to avenge the unjustified killing of civilians in air raids by Israeli gunships. And the cycle goes on and on. Who will you blame? The Israelis? Then you're anti-semitic who condones suicide bombing. Blame the Palestenians, and you have no concern for human lives that are already living under poverty line because of the Israeli's illegal occupation of Palestenian lands and bombing the **** out of them resulting in countless innocent lives, all under the pretext of assassinating terrorist leaders and "defending Israel".

And Hezbollah is in no way justified, Israel has 4 lebanese in their jails while Syria has hundreds but which country is Hezbollah "resisting"

Considering the fact that Hezbollah was created to fight Israeli occupation, is it surprising to see them aid the Palestenians?

[War Lord]

Yes and no...

That was one of my history essay questions... Seljuk Turks had control of the Holy Land and were basically killing any christians that were going on pilgramage to the Holy Land, the Pope didn't do anything about it until the Emperor of Constanopile asked for help from Rome since the turks were moving westwards and attacking Byzantium...some say it was a way for the Pope to gain more power others as way for the Pope to unify the church...others for land because it was younger sons who made up a lot of the armies..other because they were trying to rescue their "brothers in christ" so there really isn't one uniform answer to the question of the crusades...

It certainly was a myriad of causes to the Crusades.

[Mr. Walters]

Still, what gets me is how people lable ALL Muslims as terrorists. In general Islam is one of the more peaceful relegions. Just, peaceful Muslim activities don't make for good news stories I guess.

[cass]

Someone care to give an actual answer on what they think is the proper response to the terrorist actions taken by Palestinians and Hezbollah instead of pissing and moaning about "innocent lives"?

[Mr. Walters]

Negotiations, talks, whatever it is that countires unlike them, and sadly, unlike the US do.

[cass]

Negotiations, talks, whatever it is that countires unlike them, and sadly, unlike the US do.

I nominate you to reason with Hamas then. Let me know how that works out.

[Mr. Walters]

Um...ok-ay

[War Lord]

Still, what gets me is how people lable ALL Muslims as terrorists. In general Islam is one of the more peaceful relegions. Just, peaceful Muslim activities don't make for good news stories I guess.

I've never once labelled all Muslims as terrorists. If you've read anything I've typed, I'm quite clear in using the term Islamic extremist or Islamacist.

[War Lord]

Negotiations, talks, whatever it is that countires unlike them, and sadly, unlike the US do.

What you're failing to realize is that there is no negotiating with these groups. Israel tried that and it got them the current situation.

[Mr. Walters]

If you read anything I typed, I'm quite clear that I said people lable all Muslims as terrorists, not War Lord lables all Muslims as terrorists. :)

[Mr. Walters]

What you're failing to realize is that there is no negotiating with these groups. Israel tried that and it got them the current situation.

And what has war accomplished?

[cass]

What you're failing to realize is that there is no negotiating with these groups. Israel tried that and it got them the current situation.

EXACTLY! They negotiated before and it's led to the thought that they can keep up their terrorist actions and the Israelis will give in because they're weak.

[InsaneMembrane]

But does that give them a free pass to shed innocent blood along with the terrorists' as well? Do you realize just how counterproductive it is to the Israeli's goals (i.e, if they really want to end the bombings)? Civilian lives will only drive more people to rally for Hamas' cause and given the group fresh new recruits and volunteers for retaliation.

Yet no one has given an idea on how Israel should go about punishing terrorists like Hamas yet while not harming palestinian civilians..I'm just saying it's easy to say but how does one implement


That's senseless logic and you know it. I can use the same reasoning to justify Palestenian suicide bombing and claim that they were targeting military and government targets for assasination but civilians always get in the way. And resistance factions have always set up bases from within the populace, not isolated from it - the history of revolutionist groups stands as a testament to that fact.

Buses? That in no way makes it right.... If they care about the Palestinians as much they say they do they would do everything in their power to make sure the civilians don't get hurt and then I could give uniform blame to the Israelis for palestinian civilians deaths


Like I said earlier, both sides are soaked neck-deep in the blood of innocents. At the moment, the continous retribution they have inflicted on each other has developed into a quagmire, an endless circle of death where it's impossible to pinpoint who exactly is at fault for what incident. Israel tells you it's excursion into the Palestenian territory is a result of Hamas suicide bombers. Palestenians say the suicide-bombing was to avenge the unjustified killing of civilians in air raids by Israeli gunships. And the cycle goes on and on. Who will you blame? The Israelis? Then you're anti-semitic who condones suicide bombing. Blame the Palestenians, and you have no concern for human lives that are already living under poverty line because of the Israeli's illegal occupation of Palestenian lands and bombing the **** out of them resulting in countless innocent lives, all under the pretext of assassinating terrorist leaders and "defending Israel".

I do believe we have a cycle of violence and both sides are to blame but what I'm trying to say is that Israel took a step forward by leaving some of that occupied land and the palestinians could have shown Israel some good faith and started to build their economy etc you know steps toward nationhood but instead they fire rockets into Israel proper and then elect Hamas to victory... I'm just saying that there are some Israelis who want to never give Palestinians a nation and they are dead wrong and there are some Palestininas who want to completey destroy Israel and they are dead wrong as well but which one is in the Government...


Considering the fact that Hezbollah was created to fight Israeli occupation, is it surprising to see them aid the Palestenians?

I'm not saying I'm shocked I'm saying they are a bunch of hypocrites are they fighting for Lebanon, Islam or the palestinians? They don't care about prisoners they just want to destroy Israel or they would be kidnapping syrian soldiers as well

Though we have been going through this for decades and I don't see an end in sight...

[cass]

And what has war accomplished?

What has previous negotiations accomplished? Oh yeah, the current situation.

[Mr. Walters]

yawn...

I'll repeat myself in hopes of an answer this time, what has war accomplished?

[cass]

yawn...

I'll repeat myself in hopes of an answer this time, what has war accomplished?

The end of Naziism, liberations from dictators, genocide, etc. etc.

[War Lord]

And what has war accomplished?

War has never solved any problem, if you discount Communism, Fascism, terrorism.

It's also forcing Hezbollah away from the Israel border, which is the reason for this engagement.

[InsaneMembrane]

Negotiations, talks, whatever it is that countires unlike them, and sadly, unlike the US do.

You seem to be operating under the sadly false impression that Hamas in any way shape or form recognizes Israel's right to exist they say that "Palestine" is an Islamic waqf and so as Muslims they can not give any of that land to Israel and that they shall set up an Islamic states where jews, christians, and muslims shall live in peace like they do in all Islamic theocracies... and theocracies in general

[Mr. Walters]

War has never solved any problem, if you discount Communism, Fascism, terrorism.

It's also forcing Hezbollah away from the Israel border, which is the reason for this engagement.

Yeah, I heard that quote before too. But I mean in the Middle East between the PLO and Isreal. What has fifty years of them blowing each other up accomplished?

[Mr. Walters]

You seem to be operating under the sadly false impression that Hamas in any way shape or form recognizes Israel's right to exist they say that "Palestine" is an Islamic waqf and so as Muslims they can not give any of that land to Israel and that they shall set up an Islamic states where jews, christians, and muslims shall live in peace like they do in all Islamic theocracies... and theocracies in general

I know, that's why I said countries unlike them. But, again, if war is the alternative what has that accomplished for them.

[Phaser]

I have better things to than to help the police and authorities identify those who would harm me, my family, and other people, but I would do so in an instant, even at the expense of my life because I know it's the right thing to do and, ultimately, it contributes to my ability to live a life of peace and contentment.

Peace and contentment are the last things on the mind of someone who lives below poverty line without even the most basic necessities known to man such as food and shelter. I wouldn't give a **** about living in peace if I barely have a chance to live at all in the first place.

If the Palestineans really want the same thing, you'd think they'd be willing to make the choice to do so rather than elect a government committed to going to war with Israel and, instead, elect a government that is committed to improving the life of its citizens.

The Palestenians election of Hamas was simply an expected knee-jerk reaction to the atrocities committed by the Israeli's themselves. Was it "right"? Some say yes, others say no. But there is no doubt justification there for those who actually voted for them. It was the perfect example of what I said about Israel's pissing on innocent Palestenian lives that drove them to rally for Hamas.

It sickens me that, although you claim to be concerned about the citizens of the Gaza strip, Lebanon, Palestine, and other countries, that you don't have any real concern about those within their midst that cause most of their suffering.

So you are blaming groups and civilians for actually being there instead of Israel for recklessly bombing the place into oblivion killing significantly more innocents than terrorists?

Give me a ****ing break...

[InsaneMembrane]

I know, that's why I said countries unlike them. But, again, if war is the alternative what has that accomplished for them.

I see, Israel should try negotiations but with whom?

[Mr. Walters]

The Palestinians (sp?) Look, every time I turn on the news and hear of an attack over there I hear how it is a retaliation to a prior incident. What would happen if one of those two countires would decide to not retaliate? They could meet and go, "We're sick of this bombing *****, so we're going to go do other things while you blow yourselves up. Have fun!"

[TheSumOfGod]

I'm away for a few days, and war breaks out in the Middle-East. Figures. ;)

[War Lord]

A. Peace and contentment are the last things on the mind of someone who lives below poverty line without even the most basic necessities known to man such as food and shelter. I wouldn't give a **** about living in peace if I barely have a chance to live at all in the first place.

B.The Palestenians election of Hamas was simply an expected knee-jerk reaction to the atrocities committed by the Israeli's themselves. Was it "right"? Some say yes, others say no. But there is no doubt justification there for those who actually voted for them. It was the perfect example of what I said about Israel's pissing on innocent Palestenian lives that drove them to rally for Hamas.

C.So you are blaming groups and civilians for actually being there instead of Israel for recklessly bombing the place into oblivion killing significantly more innocents than terrorists?

Give me a ****ing break...

A. Most of the terrorists did not come from the most impoverished parts of their society, because they're too busy trying to survive and provide for their family. Most of the terrorist's background seems to be fairly middle class or better.

B. From what I understand, it was actually a response to the blatant corruption of Arafat's Fatah party. However, that still isn't an excuse, because if you're going to clean up and improve your society, you need to be willing to vote such people in. That's how you create change for the better.

C. It was clearly a comment that points out your hypocrisy, that being you claim to be concerned about the citizens of Gaza, Lebanon, and Palestine, yet you don't criticize the terrorists in their midst that is really causing the misery, but just blame Israel.

[War Lord]

The Palestinians (sp?) Look, every time I turn on the news and hear of an attack over there I hear how it is a retaliation to a prior incident. What would happen if one of those two countires would decide to not retaliate? They could meet and go, "We're sick of this bombing *****, so we're going to go do other things while you blow yourselves up. Have fun!"

Where Israel had a sincere partner to negotiate with, they did and paid a heavy price to ensure peace. For example, Egypt got the Suez Oil fields and Jordan got a large swath of territory back in exchange for permanent peace.

Isreal is more than willing to sacrifice for peace, but there must be a willing partner to make that happen.

Also, the 1993 Oslo Accords gave Palestineans about 90% of everything they asked for and all Israel got in return was the Intifada.

[InsaneMembrane]

The Palestinians (sp?) Look, every time I turn on the news and hear of an attack over there I hear how it is a retaliation to a prior incident. What would happen if one of those two countires would decide to not retaliate? They could meet and go, "We're sick of this bombing *****, so we're going to go do other things while you blow yourselves up. Have fun!"

Now you are acting dense should Israel pick up a random Palestinian on the street and negotiate peace? I'm sure you know what a government is they represent the Palestinians and they don't recognize Israel hence negotiations are damn near impossible rignt now

Like the last suicide bombing where Israel didn't retaliate militarily... look it up

[Mr. Walters]

What does that mean? They don't recognize the government? If Israli officials kicked down the door to some Palastinean Palace and said, "Look, bub, we're gonna have a little chat!" What would the PLO do? "Did you hear something? I thought I heard an Israli but they don't exsist so that can't be.

And if they do go to war, they should actually go to war. Not this car bomb for car bomb crap. Isreal has the means to go into Palestine and wage an actual war. Israli troops outside the palace gates. Beleive me, they'd be recognized. Of course, every other Middle East nation would jump on Isreal, but they way I see it, Isreal should either go to war, a real war or stop wit the bombing retaliations. That accomplishes nothing.

[Mr. Walters]

Isreal is more than willing to sacrifice for peace, but there must be a willing partner to make that happen.

Not to bash Isreal, but are they? Like I said, every attack is a retaliation of a previous attack. If they really wanted peace I don't think they would try to even the score all the time.

"PUT THE BOMBS DOWN, PEOPLE!!!!"

[Phaser]

Yet no one has given an idea on how Israel should go about punishing terrorists like Hamas yet while not harming palestinian civilians..I'm just saying it's easy to say but how does one implement

I see what you're getting at here. Since no one has a bloody clue about how to deal with Hamas, it's alright for the Israeli's to keep on killing more and more innocent bystanders under the pretext of assassinating terrorists and defending itself. Forgive me for not buying the crap Israel throws our way about them giving a damn about Palestenian lives in any way, because they don't. One glance at the number of Palestenian fatalities in Israeli demolitions and air raids is enough to spit that filth away. Oh and those illegal occupations? Driving Palestenians into refugee camps? Taking thousands prisoner without charges or trial? Can anyone in their right mind even argue that Israel's tactics are NOT just as dirty as the terrorists they are fighting?

Buses? That in no way makes it right.... If they care about the Palestinians as much they say they do they would do everything in their power to make sure the civilians don't get hurt and then I could give uniform blame to the Israelis for palestinian civilians deaths

Again, please for the love of God take a look at the history of resistance factions around the globe. It's how they have always[I] operated for crying out loud, it's the most basic rule of guirella warfare - take for example, my own country India - revolutionists like Chandrashekhar Aazaad and Baghat Singh. They are proudly called as freedom fighters, despite the fact that their actions resulted in the British rulers going trigger-happy on innocent civilians just like Israel is doing right now. There was no justification for such atrocities back then and there is no justification for them now. Period.

I do believe we have a cycle of violence and both sides are to blame but what I'm trying to say is that Israel took a step forward by leaving some of that occupied land and the palestinians could have shown Israel some good faith and started to build their economy etc you know steps toward nationhood but instead they fire rockets into Israel proper and then elect Hamas to victory... I'm just saying that there are some Israelis who want to never give Palestinians a nation and they are dead wrong and there are some Palestininas who want to completey destroy Israel and they are dead wrong as well but which one is in the Government...

As far as I've seen, the actions of both sides are nothing but retaliatory statements in response of the brutalities committed by another. After killing significantly more innocents than their enemy, Israel gives the Palestenians an unfair deal by giving back [I]some of it's illegally occupied land not as first step towards peace, but rather in return for complete recognition of Israel's right to exist. That's like a high school bully beating you up senseless, taking your backpack, lunch money and then offering friendship in exchange for giving back only a small piece of your own pie.

I'm not saying I'm shocked I'm saying they are a bunch of hypocrites are they fighting for Lebanon, Islam or the palestinians? They don't care about prisoners they just want to destroy Israel or they would be kidnapping syrian soldiers as well

Like I said, Hezbollah was formed for the very reason of fighting back against Israeli occupation and that's what they are doing. It's simply the age old saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" doing it's work.

[War Lord]

Not to bash Isreal, but are they? Like I said, every attack is a retaliation of a previous attack. If they really wanted peace I don't think they would try to even the score all the time.

"PUT THE BOMBS DOWN, PEOPLE!!!!"

During the height of the Intifada, Israel was losing the equivalent amount of citizens every year that the US lost once in 9/11, but they often didn't respond everytime. They held back in hopes that it would burn itself out, but it didn't. It only ended when Israel struck back and also blocked Palestineans from being able to enter Israel.

Also, the fact that Israel totally disengaged from Lebanon for the past 6 years didn' give Israel the peace they were looking for. It only got them soldiers and civilians kidnapped and missiles from into various towns througout Israel.

[InsaneMembrane]

What does that mean? They don't recognize the government? If Israli officials kicked down the door to some Palastinean Palace and said, "Look, bub, we're gonna have a little chat!" What would the PLO do? "Did you hear something? I thought I heard an Israli but they don't exsist so that can't be.

And if they do go to war, they should actually go to war. Not this car bomb for car bomb crap. Isreal has the means to go into Palestine and wage an actual war. Israli troops outside the palace gates. Beleive me, they'd be recognized. Of course, every other Middle East nation would jump on Isreal, but they way I see it, Isreal should either go to war, a real war or stop wit the bombing retaliations. That accomplishes nothing.

Are you reading what I'm saying the Government of Palestine Hamas not the PLO btw doesn't recognize that the nation of Israel exists in any form

You worry about Palestinian civilian deaths and then say Israel should go into an all out war...

[Mr. Walters]

I stand corrected. And exactly what is the beef over there? Just land and relegious beleifs? Seems to be more to it than that.

[Mr. Walters]

Are you reading what I'm saying the Government of Palestine Hamas not the PLO btw doesn't recognize that the nation of Israel exists in any form

You worry about Palestinian civilian deaths and then say Israel should go into an all out war...

I didn't say anything about civillian deaths. And don't the terrorists target civilians? At least sometimes? That would be a crime in times of war, so if an actual war was waged Isreal would have to follow certain guidelines. I thought Hamas was the PLO. My bad.

[Mr. Walters]

Me personally, even if I don't recognize the government I'd surely recognize thier millitary if they camped out in my front yard.

[War Lord]

I didn't say anything about civillian deaths. And don't the terrorists target civilians? At least sometimes? That would be a crime in times of war, so if an actual war was waged Isreal would have to follow certain guidelines. I thought Hamas was the PLO. My bad.

The terrorists target civilians all the time, because they wouldn't do much to the military and it serves the purpose to terrorize the rest of the population.

[Phaser]

A. Most of the terrorists did not come from the most impoverished parts of their society, because they're too busy trying to survive and provide for their family. Most of the terrorist's background seems to be fairly middle class or better.

Actually, a number of suicide-bomber recruits are but volunteers who have lost their loved ones in Israeli raids or idealistic symathizers who understand the pain of their people. No one likes strap himself in 30 pounds of explosive and blow himself to the seventh heaven just because he hates someone. Revenge and desperation are the primary motivators of these people.

B. From what I understand, it was actually a response to the blatant corruption of Arafat's Fatah party. However, that still isn't an excuse, because if you're going to clean up and improve your society, you need to be willing to vote such people in. That's how you create change for the better.

The corruption of Arafat's party only provided further incentive for people to elect Hamas. To the Palestenian people, Fatah was nothing but a useless, helpless stand-in that was simply waiting for replacement. And please, when the Palestenians have sufferred at least 5-10 times more fatalities than the Israelis, expecting them to be apologetic and "improve their own socieity" will yield little results. Both Israel and Palestine have taken way too many jabs at each other, and you are only deluding yourself if you think the solution to this mess lies in Palestenians surrendering to Israeli aggression or Israelis caving into Palestenian demands.

C. It was clearly a comment that points out your hypocrisy, that being you claim to be concerned about the citizens of Gaza, Lebanon, and Palestine, yet you don't criticize the terrorists in their midst that is really causing the misery, but just blame Israel.

Hypocrisy? Look at the pot calling the kettle black. If you bothered to read my posts, I am blaming Israel for putting no value for innocent Palestenian lives just as long as Israel gets to assassinate these terrorists. The hypocrisy and blatant self-contradiction is clearly evident in the actions of Israel and your justification for them where both of you condone the murder of innocents on the other side just as long as you get to protect your own. Both of you are just as worse as the terrorists, considering the fact that you didn't hesitate to stooping down to their level by demonstrating your utter disregard for civilian lives. Disgusting.

[InsaneMembrane]

I see what you're getting at here. Since no one has a bloody clue about how to deal with Hamas, it's alright for the Israeli's to keep on killing more and more innocent bystanders under the pretext of assassinating terrorists and defending itself. Forgive me for not buying the crap Israel throws our way about them giving a damn about Palestenian lives in any way, because they don't. One glance at the number of Palestenian fatalities in Israeli demolitions and air raids is enough to spit that filth away. Oh and those illegal occupations? Driving Palestenians into refugee camps? Taking thousands prisoner without charges or trial? Can anyone in their right mind even argue that Israel's tactics are NOT just as dirty as the terrorists they are fighting?




Again, please for the love of God take a look at the history of resistance factions around the globe. It's how they have always operated for crying out loud, it's the most basic rule of guirella warfare - take for example, my own country India - revolutionists like Chandrashekhar Aazaad and Baghat Singh. They are proudly called as freedom fighters, despite the fact that their actions resulted in the British rulers going trigger-happy on innocent civilians just like Israel is doing right now. There was no justification for such atrocities back then and there is no justification for them now. Period.

They are proudly called freedom fighters by who? The whole world?...I haven't personally heard of them so if you could give me a link for some info I would appreciate it.. Again read what I said... just because it is the precendent doesn't make it right.. it seems that Hamas is willing to sacrifice the people they say the are liberating for the Islamic cause



As far as I've seen, the actions of both sides are nothing but retaliatory statements in response of the brutalities committed by another. After killing significantly more innocents than their enemy, Israel gives the Palestenians an unfair deal by giving back [I]some of it's illegally occupied land not as first step towards peace, but rather in return for complete recognition of Israel's right to exist. That's like a high school bully beating you up senseless, taking your backpack, lunch money and then offering friendship in exchange for giving back only a small piece of your own pie.

Israel withdrew without any conditions, they didn't say that Hamas or the PLO had to recognize Israel's right to exist especially since the PLO was in charge then and it already recognized Israel's right to exist in their Charter ... I didn't say it was the only land Israel should give back but it was a concession, you know what both sides need to make, and it was tossed back their face


Like I said, Hezbollah was formed for the very reason of fighting back against Israeli occupation and that's what they are doing. It's simply the age old saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" doing it's work.

No it was formed to end Israeli occupation [I]in Southern Lebanon and Israel withdrew and when that happened and all the other militias disarmed they kept their weapons saying that they are now trying to get back lebanese citizens illegally held in Israeli jails while completely disregarding Syrian attrocities...which is why they are rejected by most christians, sunnis and some shias.. If it is what the Lebanese want then let their army take care of it

One question do you feel Hezbollah should disarm?

[cass]

No one likes strap himself in 30 pounds of explosive and blow himself to the seventh heaven just because he hates someone. Revenge and desperation are the primary motivators of these people.

See 72 virgins.

[Phaser]

Israel withdrew without any conditions, they didn't say that Hamas or the PLO had to recognize Israel's right to exist especially since the PLO was in charge then and it already recognized Israel's right to exist in their Charter ... I didn't say it was the only land Israel should give back but it was a concession, you know what both sides need to make, and it was tossed back their face

I vaguely recall certain members of the PA calling the withdrawal "an unfair deal" and because of that, I am quite sure that it most definitely wasn't an unconditional move on part of Israel.

No it was formed to end Israeli occupation in Southern Lebanon and Israel withdrew and when that happened and all the other militias disarmed they kept their weapons saying that they are now trying to get back lebanese citizens illegally held in Israeli jails while completely disregarding Syrian attrocities...

There is a lot of bad blood between Syria and Lebanon. And this can be seen by considering the terrorist bombings in both countries in the past two years.

which is why they are rejected by most christians, sunnis and some shias...If it is what the Lebanese want then let their army take care of it

The goals and interests of a particular political party does not necessarily reflect that of the entire populace, especially when said party holds less than 20% of the total seats in the government.

One question do you feel Hezbollah should disarm?

Not as long as Israel continues it's illegal occupation of Palestenian territories. Different nations and resistance factions have often helped each other out of mutual understanding and a common goal.

[Phaser]

See 72 virgins.

Islamic laws also strongly forbid suicide and the killing of innocents, yet no one seems to give a damn about that. I wonder who's being selective here - the suicide bombers or the ones who try to blame their actions on religion? :rolleyes:

[Gonking]

I am not convinced this is entirely a religious war. Palestinians were living in Palestine quite nicely until the Jews were sanctioned to move there after WW2. They displaced many Palestinians and dumped them into poorly made tent camps where thousands died. Since the Palestinisns are Muslim, their Muslim allies protested. Like I said, there are no innocents on either side here.

The conflict with Palestine is not religious is escencially for territory. Now, obviously, all the muslins and arabs countries that have intervened in this conflict between Israel and Palestine have done it because of religious differences.

[TheSumOfGod]

Like I've said before, it's always the same old story with Israel: They can put anyone on trial, but absolutely no one can ever be allowed to put them on trial. It's not their politics or military actions that get me, it's their consistent holier-than-thou attitude. :rolleyes:

[Gonking]

It's equally hard to sympathize with Israel when women and children routinely get killed in demolitions, raids and air-strikes to assassinate Hamas leaders.

Totally agree with you

[Mr. Walters]

Islamic laws also strongly forbid suicide and the killing of innocents, yet no one seems to give a damn about that. I wonder who's being selective here - the suicide bombers or the ones who try to blame their actions on religion? :rolleyes:

I don't know how to applaud on a message board, but I am clapping. Good answer.

[cass]

Islamic laws also strongly forbid suicide and the killing of innocents, yet no one seems to give a damn about that. I wonder who's being selective here - the suicide bombers or the ones who try to blame their actions on religion? :rolleyes:

Um, 72 virgins.

[InsaneMembrane]

I vaguely recall certain members of the PA calling the withdrawal "an unfair deal" and because of that, I am quite sure that it most definitely wasn't an unconditional move on part of Israel.

links?



There is a lot of bad blood between Syria and Lebanon. And this can be seen by considering the terrorist bombings in both countries in the past two years.

Not by Hezbollah

The goals and interests of a particular political party does not necessarily reflect that of the entire populace, especially when said party holds less than 20% of the total seats in the government.

Yet Hezbollah acts in the land of that populace without their permission.. Let them fire rockets from Syria then ..do you think the way they are acting reflects the majority position of the Lebanese


Not as long as Israel continues it's illegal occupation of Palestenian territories. Different nations and resistance factions have often helped each other out of mutual understanding and a common goal.

I don't like the way Saudi Arabia treats religious minorites..I'm sure a lot of countries don't so those country can arm a group and you would have no problem letting that terrorist goup fire rockets into Saudi Arabia? but only as long as religious freedom isn't allowed? especially since the land Hezbollah are hitting isn't considered occupied

What exactly do you consider occupied palestinian land?

[StarvingArtist]

Israelis have every right to defend their homeland. If Mexico started bombading Texas with rockets, the US would waste no time.

[Mr. Walters]

Israelis have every right to defend their homeland. If Mexico started bombading Texas with rockets, the US would waste no time.

There is a difference though. Yes, if Mexico invaded Texas we would go to war with Mexico. But in the Middle East it's more like if a Mexican blew himself up in a shopping mall in Texas, so then an American does the same thing down in Mexico. We actually go to war after we are attacked, (9/11, Pearl Harbor, 1812, Spanish American War, etc) we wouldn't pussyfoot around with car bomb retaliations. That's what I don't get voer there. If they're gonna fight, then just do it. The world is gettin' sick of the Mid East pissin' contest going on.

[Gonking]

Ah ok. I assume youre against holding prisoners in Guantanamo Bay as well?

There is something called HUMAN RIGHTS and this are for everybody, even the terrorists, murderers and dictators, because if you don't respet those rights you become one of them.

Sorry, I forget that the United States governments frequently don't respet them.

[InsaneMembrane]

There is a difference though. Yes, if Mexico invaded Texas we would go to war with Mexico. But in the Middle East it's more like if a Mexican blew himself up in a shopping mall in Texas, so then an American does the same thing down in Mexico. We actually go to war after we are attacked, (9/11, Pearl Harbor, 1812, Spanish American War, etc) we wouldn't pussyfoot around with car bomb retaliations. That's what I don't get voer there. If they're gonna fight, then just do it. The world is gettin' sick of the Mid East pissin' contest going on.

No it's not like that.. it would be like if mexico had a group like say FARC and then refused to disarm them and let them have control of their borders and let them into the government.....

[Phaser]

Um, 72 virgins.

Um, learn to read.

[StarvingArtist]

There is a difference though. Yes, if Mexico invaded Texas we would go to war with Mexico. But in the Middle East it's more like if a Mexican blew himself up in a shopping mall in Texas, so then an American does the same thing down in Mexico. We actually go to war after we are attacked, (9/11, Pearl Harbor, 1812, Spanish American War, etc) we wouldn't pussyfoot around with car bomb retaliations. That's what I don't get voer there. If they're gonna fight, then just do it. The world is gettin' sick of the Mid East pissin' contest going on.

Pick whatever metaphor you want. Believe me, no other nation is more sick of the situation then Israel who are finally taking the steps necessary to do what must be done. If the world was as sick of the situation as you propose, and if it were as simple as that, then they wouldn't be urging the Israelis to excercise "restraint" which they've been doing long before this crisis.

[Mr. Walters]

There's that disarm word again. Why do we in America get so bent out of shape when other countries get nuclear weapons when whe have them ourselves. We cry of everyone else to disarm and Bush uses it as a justification to go to war...it's stupid. Why are we so damn special? Why do we think we get all the nukes and no one else does. Don't we get it? We hold a gun to the head of the rest of the world and are confused why people don't like us.

WE SHOULD DISARM FIRST!!!!!!

[StarvingArtist]

There's that disarm word again. Why do we in America get so bent out of shape when other countries get nuclear weapons when whe have them ourselves. We cry of everyone else to disarm and Bush uses it as a justification to go to war...it's stupid. Why are we so damn special? Why do we think we get all the nukes and no one else does. Don't we get it? We hold a gun to the head of the rest of the world and are confused why people don't like us.

WE SHOULD DISARM FIRST!!!!!!

Real simple, because both the leaders of Iran and North Korea are ****ing nuts.

[Mr. Walters]

Pick whatever metaphor you want. Believe me, no other nation is more sick of the situation then Israel who are finally taking the steps necessary to do what must be done. If the world was as sick of the situation as you propose, and if it were as simple as that, then they wouldn't be urging the Israelis to excercise "restraint" which they've been doing long before this crisis.

Okay, maybe the world isn't sick of it. Maybe the world likes dark skinned forgeiners to blow each other up, but I for one am sick of it.

[Mr. Walters]

Real simple, because both the leaders of Iran and North Korea are ****ing nuts.

And Bush isn't?

[cass]

Um, learn to read.

So hundreds if not thousands of suicide bombers just pull it out of their asses?

[InsaneMembrane]

There's that disarm word again. Why do we in America get so bent out of shape when other countries get nuclear weapons when whe have them ourselves. We cry of everyone else to disarm and Bush uses it as a justification to go to war...it's stupid. Why are we so damn special? Why do we think we get all the nukes and no one else does. Don't we get it? We hold a gun to the head of the rest of the world and are confused why people don't like us.

WE SHOULD DISARM FIRST!!!!!!

tan·gent
adj.

1. Making contact at a single point or along a line; touching but not intersecting.
2. Irrelevant.


Lebanon remember?

[StarvingArtist]

And Bush isn't?

Nope. Bush isn't bright and he's irresponsible. Big difference.

The only similarity between all three is that none of them should be in power.

[cass]

There's that disarm word again. Why do we in America get so bent out of shape when other countries get nuclear weapons when whe have them ourselves. We cry of everyone else to disarm and Bush uses it as a justification to go to war...it's stupid. Why are we so damn special? Why do we think we get all the nukes and no one else does. Don't we get it? We hold a gun to the head of the rest of the world and are confused why people don't like us.

WE SHOULD DISARM FIRST!!!!!!

I'm certainly glad you're no where near a political office.

[StarvingArtist]

I'm certainly glad you're no where near a political office.

I agree

[Mr. Walters]

Nope...

The man violated UN protocol. If Kim Jong Il did that, we'd be calling him nuts.

[Mr. Walters]

tan·gent
adj.

1. Making contact at a single point or along a line; touching but not intersecting.
2. Irrelevant.


Lebanon remember?

Um, like...isn't this whole post a new and seperate tangent started by you?


Lebonon, remember?

[Mr. Walters]

I agree

Why? Since World War II have ever used a nuclear weapon? Do you know what would happen if we did? Give me one valid reason why we shouldn't disarm?

[Phaser]

links?

It'll take me some time to dig them up. A Google search only gives me hundreds of news stories concerning the most recent events. On the contrary, it would be equally helpful if you can provide a link yourself that states Israel's "unconditional" pullout from Gaza.

Not by Hezbollah

What exactly is your point anyway?

Yet Hezbollah acts in the land of that populace without their permission.. Let them fire rockets from Syria then ..do you think the way they are acting reflects the majority position of the Lebanese

Governments often act without unanimous agreement from it's people. Just take a look at what the American public currently thinks of Bush administration's misadventures in Iraq.

I don't like the way Saudi Arabia treats religious minorites..I'm sure a lot of countries don't so those country can arm a group and you would have no problem letting that terrorist goup fire rockets into Saudi Arabia? but only as long as religious freedom isn't allowed? especially since the land Hezbollah are hitting isn't considered occupied

Hezbollah fired rockets at Israel in retaliation for the targeting of purely civilian targets in Lebanon, such as inter-country bridges and the Beirut International airport. I thought everyone knew at least that much.

What exactly do you consider occupied palestinian land?

Well land that belongs to Palestine but is illegally occupied by Israel, of course. I mean, d'uh. :confused:

[Gonking]

During the height of the Intifada, Israel was losing the equivalent amount of citizens every year that the US lost once in 9/11, but they often didn't respond everytime. They held back in hopes that it would burn itself out, but it didn't. It only ended when Israel struck back and also blocked Palestineans from being able to enter Israel.

Also, the fact that Israel totally disengaged from Lebanon for the past 6 years didn' give Israel the peace they were looking for. It only got them soldiers and civilians kidnapped and missiles from into various towns througout Israel.

you're wrong man. During the Intifada the repression of Isreal againts the palestine people was terrible. And they were protesting for fair things like their territory, the poverty, the constants humiliation and the innocent people killed by Israel.

[Gamma Ray]

Phaser, what does the arabic phrase in your sig. mean?

[InsaneMembrane]

Um, like...isn't this whole post a new and seperate tangent started by you?


Lebonon, remember?

Yeah every time someone has reminded someone else to stay on topic it's them going off on tangent..:rolleyes:

1) Whose nuclear weapons are you talking about Hezbollah's, Lebanon's?; if they have nuclear weapons so do I..

2) Hezbollah has been told to disarm by the UN not just the US

3) So what does your earlier post have to do with Lebanon,Hezbollah and Israel?

[Gamma Ray]

InsaneMembrane, what does your sig. mean?

[Phaser]

So hundreds if not thousands of suicide bombers just pull it out of their asses?

Can you show me where exactly did these bombers claim they were strapping on explosives for some much-needed virgin lovin' in the afterlife? The whole "72 virgins" is nothing but an exaggerated stereotype that is unabashedly taken out of context and irrelevantly slapped on this situation.

[Topdawg]

^^yeah i was wondering the same.....

[Cho Chang]

Then stop whining and be willing to back our country or Israel if we need to go into Iran and take out those reactors. Be willing to do what must be done. For the last time, this thread has nothing to do with ****ing Iran. Give your head a shake.

[Mr. Walters]

I don't even remember. Someone said something about someone somewhere disarming. I just said if we really expect other nations to give up on nuclear weapons, we have to also.

[Mr. Walters]

Can you show me where exactly did these bombers claim they were strapping on explosives for some much-needed virgin lovin' in the afterlife? The whole "72 virgins" is nothing but an exaggerated stereotype that is unabashedly taken out of context and irrelevantly slapped on this situation.

If there is any truth to that, then these men are stupid. Even been with a virgin? Not a pleasent experience. I'd much rather blow myself up for 72 experienced women who know what they are doing.

[Phaser]

Phaser, what does the arabic phrase in your sig. mean?

It's a poetic verse that highlights a Muslim's love and reverence for the Prophet of Islam.

[War Lord]

For the last time, this thread has nothing to do with ****ing Iran. Give your head a shake.

It can have everything to do with Iran if Iran gave Hezbollah orders, because Iran is their patron.

[Gamma Ray]

Can you show me where exactly did these bombers claim they were strapping on explosives for some much-needed virgin lovin' in the afterlife? The whole "72 virgins" is nothing but an exaggerated stereotype that is unabashedly taken out of context and irrelevantly slapped on this situation.


Suuuuure....


:p


It's a poetic verse that highlight's a Muslim's love and reverence for the Prophet of Islam.

Do you have an exact translation?

[Cho Chang]

This conflict, like most others, is only going to benefit Big Oil and Saudi Arabia, BTW. A little off topic, but I hope everyone knows it's the truth. They're sitting on the spigots as we speak driving the price of crude up.

[Gonking]

What exactly do you consider occupied palestinian land?

you have to read a little history. In 1948 the UN divided the territory of palestine giving lands to Israel and putting Jerusalem as an international city. During the several wars that follow this, Israel won and occupied the palestine territories

[Cho Chang]

It can have everything to do with Iran if Iran gave Hezbollah orders, because Iran is their patron. And it could have evrything to do with the U.S. if they persuaded Israel into a full scale assault for the same reason.

[Cho Chang]

Suuuuure.... I wouldn't be surprised if it was taken out of context. People still believe that Bin Laden is an Islamic extremist.

[Gamma Ray]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was taken out of context. People still believe that Bin Laden is an Islamic extremist.


And he is in fact a....what?

[InsaneMembrane]

It'll take me some time to dig them up. A Google search only gives me hundreds of news stories concerning the most recent events. On the contrary, it would be equally helpful if you can provide a link yourself that states Israel's "unconditional" pullout from Gaza.

I'll look as well


What exactly is your point anyway?

That your point was wrong? How was Israel withdrawing from Gaza not a concession from their earlier stance of all land belongs to Israel and how was it based on complete recognition of Israel from the Palestinians?

Governments often act without unanimous agreement from it's people. Just take a look at what the American public currently thinks of Bush administration's misadventures in Iraq.

If Americans dislike it they can elect a new government, can the Lebanese have a referundum of the disarment of the Hezbollah, which Hezbollah would listen to? The Republican party would step down if they lost the elections


Hezbollah fired rockets at Israel in retaliation for the targeting of purely civilian targets in Lebanon, such as inter-country bridges and the Beirut International airport. I thought everyone knew at least that much.

What? I would think that everyone knows that Hezbollah has been firing rockets from Israel for the last six years. You didn't answer my question about Saudi Arabia?




Well land that belongs to Palestine but is illegally occupied by Israel, of course. I mean, d'uh. :confused:
:rolleyes:
Pre-1967 borders? All of the land as advocated by Hamas I mean everyone knows there is different opinions on what land belongs to the palestinians d'uh

.....

[Phaser]

Suuuuure....


:p

I mean come on, aside from laughing at the absurdity of it, do you honestly think blowing yourself up for 72 virgins in the afterlife is motivation enough to blow yourself up, especially considering that according to Islamic laws, you're screwed up bad anyway for a suicidal act and killing innocents along with it.

Really, all it takes is a splinter of rational thought to look through this fallacy.




Do you have an exact translation?

It's a bit hard to translate accurately. I copied it from raybia when he had it in his sig so perhaps he has the accurate translation. I try to translate on my own but Arabic words often have multiple meanings so...

[Cho Chang]

And he is in fact a....what? Businessman

[War Lord]

And it could have evrything to do with the U.S. if they persuaded Israel into a full scale assault for the same reason.

Do you have any proof of this or are you pulling it out of your hat to try and deflect blame again?

[Gamma Ray]

I mean come on, aside from laughing at the absurdity of it, do you honestly think blowing yourself up for 72 virgins in the afterlife is motivation enough to blow yourself up, especially considering that according to Islamic laws, you're screwed up bad anyway for a suicidal act and killing innocents along with it.

Really, all it takes is a splinter of rational thought to look through this fallacy.



So these people are blowing themselves up because....?

[War Lord]

you have to read a little history. In 1948 the UN divided the territory of palestine giving lands to Israel and putting Jerusalem as an international city. During the several wars that follow this, Israel won and occupied the palestine territories

The winner traditionally gets to keep won lands.

[War Lord]

So these people are blowing themselves up because....?

To make money, at least according to Cho Chang.

[Mr. Walters]

Most businessmen live in caves after they get exiled from their countries for being a whack job.

[InsaneMembrane]

you have to read a little history. In 1948 the UN divided the territory of palestine giving lands to Israel and putting Jerusalem as an international city. During the several wars that follow this, Israel won and occupied the palestine territories

I know that, but some Palestinians say all of it is illegally occupied and I was wondering what view Phaser followed..

Gamma Ray, 1 John 5: 7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one".

[Gamma Ray]

Businessman


A buisnessman who happens to be a Muslim who curses America with every breath he takes? Ahh...

[Gamma Ray]

Gamma Ray, 1 John 5: 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


That's interesting, considering Muslims do not believe in that...

Just sayin...

[cass]

Can you show me where exactly did these bombers claim they were strapping on explosives for some much-needed virgin lovin' in the afterlife? The whole "72 virgins" is nothing but an exaggerated stereotype that is unabashedly taken out of context and irrelevantly slapped on this situation.

http://www.citizensoldier.org/72virgins.html

It's what the leaders of the "martyrs" promise as their reward.

[InsaneMembrane]

That's interesting, considering Muslims do not believe in that...

Just sayin...

Good thing I'm not Muslim then...I just think Arabic script looks cool

[Cho Chang]

Do you have any proof of this or are you pulling it out of your hat to try and deflect blame again? Deflect blame? Wtf are you on about? Do you have any proof that Iran persuaded Hezbollah? I'm not blaming anyone for anything. As far as I'm concerned both sides of the conflict are acting like idiots. But I'm not going to watch people defend Israel's equally (to hezbollahs) atrocious acts.

[cass]

Businessman

You just won the dumbass of the day award, congratulations, you were up against some stiff competition.

[Cho Chang]

A buisnessman who happens to be a Muslim who curses America with every breath he takes? Ahh... I curse America all the time. If I was Muslim would that make me an Islamic extremist?:confused:

[Cho Chang]

You just won the dumbass of the day award, congratulations, you were up against some stiff competition. Appearently you know little to nothing about Osama Bin Laden. You should pick up a book every once in a while.

[War Lord]

Deflect blame? Wtf are you on about? Do you have any proof that Iran persuaded Hezbollah? I'm not blaming anyone for anything. As far as I'm concerned both sides of the conflict are acting like idiots. But I'm not going to watch people defend Israel's equally (to hezbollahs) atrocious acts.

That's why you've been putting most of the blame on America and Israel.

[Gamma Ray]

Do you really think the only incentive these suicide bombers have is money for their family? If so... you're *shifty eyes*... glib!

[Gamma Ray]

I curse America all the time. If I was Muslim would that make me an Islamic extremist?:confused:


It would if you coordinated attacks on innocent lives such as the ones coordinated by Bin Laden.

[Cho Chang]

http://www.citizensoldier.org/72virgins.html

It's what the leaders of the "martyrs" promise as their reward.Yeah, that's a pretty reliable site.:down

[cass]

Appearently you know little to nothing about Osama Bin Laden. You should pick up a book every once in a while.

Seems I know a bit more about Osama bin Laden than you, I'm afraid.

[cass]

Yeah, that's a pretty reliable site.:down

I forgot, the only reliable sites are Michael Moore's and al-Jezeera's.

[Cho Chang]

It would if you coordinated attacks on innocent lives such as the ones coordinated by Bin Laden. Bin Laden "uses" Islamic extremists. He uses easily lead individuals who have a difficult time thinking for themselves (most often highly religious individuals, just like anywhere else in the world) to conduct a war that is now and always has been about control of the world's most sought after finite resource. ****ing Oil. It's why he's constantly reminding people not to destroy oil wells, it's why he has problems with his home country of Saudi Arabia, it's why he hated Saddam Hussein. Bin Laden uses religious idiots to support his war, just like the president of the United States.

[Phaser]

That your point was wrong? How was Israel withdrawing from Gaza not a concession from their earlier stance of all land belongs to Israel and how was it based on complete recognition of Israel from the Palestinians?

If Israel forcefully and illegally occupied Palestenian land, claims all of it as it's own and then later gives back some of it to the Palestenians, you call that a concession?

If Americans dislike it they can elect a new government, can the Lebanese have a referundum of the disarment of the Hezbollah, which Hezbollah would listen to? The Republican party would step down if they lost the elections

I dunno, ask the Lebanese. They too are a democracy and can elect the Hezbollah out of power. But even then, there's always been a considerable portion of the Lebanese populace that's never supported Hezbollah, just like there has been a similiarly significant portion of the American public that voted against Bush but he got elected anyway. Besides, doesn't the number of seats Hezbollah holds in the Lebanese government (less than 20%) speak anything about the percentage of it's followers in the country?

What? I would think that everyone knows that Hezbollah has been firing rockets from Israel for the last six years.

And it has often been in retaliation for something. Just like how Israel fights back in retaliation for the acts of Hamas and Hezbollah. Exactly what I said - an endless circle of death.

You didn't answer my question about Saudi Arabia?

That's because I'm having a hard time making any sense of it the way you phrased it. Can you please rephrase the question with a bit more clarity?

Pre-1967 borders? All of the land as advocated by Hamas I mean everyone knows there is different opinions on what land belongs to the palestinians d'uh

Then what exactly was the purpose of your question? If you're questioning the fact that whether or not Israel's occupation of the Palestenian land is "illegal", why not look at the statements made by the U.N about said occupation.

[Cho Chang]

Seems I know a bit more about Osama bin Laden than you, I'm afraid. Enlighten me.

[Cho Chang]

That's why you've been putting most of the blame on America and Israel. I haven't been putting blame on anyone, I've been making sure that no one forgets that there are two (2) sides to this conflict, and their both bad guys. Though many here seem to have fallen for the good guise act.

[Phaser]

So these people are blowing themselves up because....?

Nationalism, desperation, revenge. Those are much more powerful motivators than 72 virgins (unless of course, these are some horny-ass terrorists we're dealing with).

[Mr Sparkle]

That's why you've been putting most of the blame on America and Israel.

all I have seen some people here do, is hold Israel to the same standards that it holds it's enemies, and all I have seen some other people do is hypocritically
try to defend Israel, as if it was blameless.
again and again some people have said "both sides are wrong" and again, and again, other people have said "why are you blaming Israel".

LOL, it's pathetic.

[Gamma Ray]

Israel is not blameless. I blame them for giving back all that land in the first place because it hasn't resolved anything.

[Cho Chang]

all I have seen some people here do, is hold Israel to the same standards that it holds it's enemies, and all I have seen some other people do is hypocritically
try to defend Israel, as if it was blameless.
again and again some people have said "both sides are wrong" and again, and again, other people have said "why are you blaming Israel".

LOL, it's pathetic. No, seriously though. We really do hate Jews.:rolleyes: I'm gonna go give Hitler a blowjob.

[Mr Sparkle]

Israel is not blameless. I blame them for giving back all that land in the first place because it hasn't resolved anything.

oh, I'm sorry, you blame them for being TOO NICE?

ahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaaha!


:rolleyes:

[Gamma Ray]

oh, I'm sorry, you blame them for being TOO NICE?

ahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaaha!


:rolleyes:


Yep. You can't bargain with these people. Death and destruction is all they want.

[cass]

Death and destruction is all they want.

I say give it to them then.

[Mr Sparkle]

Yep. You can't bargain with these people. Death and destruction is all they want.

LOL, for someone who has absolutely NO IDEA WHAT THE **** HE'S TALKING ABOUT.


you have some string opinions there sport. :rolleyes:

[Cho Chang]

Yep. You can't bargain with these people. Death and destruction is all they want. And since you've grown up over there and spent your entire life in the region you know everything there is to know about these people and what they want. You're not just making a broad generalization of any sort. You're right. **** it. Bomb the dirty towel-heads.:rolleyes: People like you are the reason I shouldn't carry a gun.

[InsaneMembrane]

If Israel forcefully and illegally occupied Palestenian land, claims all of it as it's own and then later gives back some of it to the Palestenians, you call that a concession?

In the Modern day peace process, yes I can


I dunno, ask the Lebanese. They too are a democracy and can elect the Hezbollah out of power. But even then, there's always been a considerable portion of the Lebanese populace that's never supported Hezbollah, just like there has been a similiarly significant portion of the American public that voted against Bush but he got elected anyway. Besides, doesn't the number of seats Hezbollah holds in the Lebanese government (less than 20%) speak anything about the percentage of it's followers in the country?

You don't know anything about the political situation of Lebanon on paper and off? Okay I'll keep that in mind...


And it has often been in retaliation for something. Just like how Israel fights back in retaliation for the acts of Hamas and Hezbollah. Exactly what I said - an endless circle of death.

For what Israeli actions against Lebanon? Israel has left Lebanon alone it was their vietnam they bdidn't want anything to do with it Hezbollah just used the area to make more attacks on Israel, Hamas is a different situation though



That's because I'm having a hard time making any sense of it the way you phrased it. Can you please rephrase the question with a bit more clarity?

All right you say Hezbollah doesn't have to disarm as long as Israel occupies Palestinian lands so you would also not complain if as long as Saudi Arabia violates Human Rights there was a Christian resistance attacking Saudi Arabian towns? Or Egyptian or Malayasian...


Then what exactly was the purpose of your question? If you're questioning the fact that whether or not Israel's occupation of the Palestenian land is "illegal", why not look at the statements made by the U.N about said occupation.

No I have met people people with different views of what is illegal occupied lands as some maps don't have Israel on it at all just Palestine

....

[Gamma Ray]

And since you've grown up over there and spent your entire life in the region you know everything there is to know about these people and what they want.


Yeah. Same to you.

[Gamma Ray]

LOL, for someone who has absolutely NO IDEA WHAT THE **** HE'S TALKING ABOUT.


you have some string opinions there sport. :rolleyes:


Yep. No idea what I'm talking about. I'm sure that all of these terrorists are just buisnessmen trying to get by.

[Cho Chang]

Yeah. Same to you. Exactly. All I see are bodies flying around and people saying "Yay, Israel!". I think it's bull****. You sit in comfort (comfort payed for by the world's poor and suffering, I might add) and claim to know everything about what's going on. All I'm saying is that you can't fight terrorism with terrorism.

[Phaser]

http://www.citizensoldier.org/72virgins.html

It's what the leaders of the "martyrs" promise as their reward.

That pile of crap is so easy to refute, it's not even funny.

the only way to get the virgins is to get to heaven, and Koran is quite specific that the only way to be certain of getting to heaven is to die in Jihad."

There are so many ways of getting to heaven, it's hard to keep count. Here, a couple of easier, less-destructive alternative route to heaven from the Qur'an itself:

Verily those who believe (in God and His Messenger) and do righteous good deeds, they are the best of creatures. Their reward with their Lord is Paradise underneath which rivers flow. They will abide therein forever, God will be pleased with them and they, with Him. That is for him who fears his Lord. verses 7-8 Chapter 98

And We have enjoined on man to be dutiful and kind to his parents. His mother bears him with hardship. And she brings him forth with hardship, and the bearing of him, and the weaning of him is thirty months, till which when he attains full strength and reaches forty years and says "My Lord! Grant me the power and ability that I mayb be grateful for Your Favor which You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and that I may do righteous good deeds, such as please You and make my offspring good. Truly, I have turned to You in repentance and truly I am one the Muslims (submitting to Your Will).

They are those from whom We shall accept the best of their deeds and overlook their sins They shall be among the dwellers of Paradise - a promise of truth, which they have been promised. verse 15-16 Chapter 46

Those who perform prayer and give charity and they have faith in the Hereafter with certainty. Such are on the guidance from their Lord and such are successful. Verses 4-5 Chapter 31

Verily those who say "Our Lord is (only) Allah" and thereafter stand firm and straight on the Islamic faith of Monotheism, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Such shall be the dwellers of Paradise abiding therein forever - a reward for their deeds. verses 13-14 Chapter 46

So based on the above verses, basically if you do any or all of the following:

1. Believe in God and His Messenger]
2. Lead a life with good deeds
3. Be dutiful to your parents
4. Be regular in the ritualistic prayers
5. Give charity

...you are pretty much guaranteed a place in Paradise.

Yo! Yeah all you folks with explosive belts, come here. You want to get Paradise and make out with virgins? Here's an easier route where you don't have to blow yourself up. :up:

:rolleyes:

[Gamma Ray]

You sit in comfort (comfort payed for by the world's poor and suffering, I might add)


Are you serious? That's so freakin' lame. Even from you.

[Gonking]

Yep. You can't bargain with these people. Death and destruction is all they want.

you are so naive

[Gamma Ray]

you are so naive


Maybe... But I'm right.

[Cho Chang]

Are you serious? That's so freakin' lame. Even from you. It's the truth. Your economy (and mine) was payed for in blood.

[Phaser]

In the Modern day peace process, yes I can

Oh, so Israel giving back only a piece of land that never even belonged to it in the first place which it had forcefully and illegally occupied is called a "concession" in your political dictionary? Wow...

You really no nothing of Lebanon's political situation then...Hezbollah has refused to give up their arms at all

Uhh, so? What does that have to do with their involvement in the Lebanese government and the percentage of the Lebanese population that supports them?

For what Israeli actions against Lebanon? Israel has left Lebanon alone it was their vietnam they bdidn't want anything to do with it Hezbollah just used the area to make more attacks on Israel, Hamas is a different situation though

What did I say earlier about resistance factions helping each other out of mutual understanding and a common goal? Hezbollah doesn't appear to be fighting for the Lebanese, but rather helping out the Palestenians in their cause.



All right you say Hezbollah doesn't have to disarm as long as Israel occupies Palestinian lands so you would also not complain if as long as Saudi Arabia violates Human Rights there was a Christian resistance attacking Saudi Arabian towns? Or Egyptian or Malayasian

I believe violation of human rights is very much trivial compared to the utter disregard for civilian lives in air raids and ground demolitions, illegal occupation, forcing residents into refugee camps, razing homes, taking thousands prisoner without charges or trial and whatnot. Personally speaking, I've had to endure cases of Human Rights violations within my own country (and I'm sure many immigrant in other countries also have) so forgive me for thinking of it as comparitively insignificant in contrast to the massacres in the Israeli-Palestenian conflict.

No I have met people people with different views of what is illegal occupied lands as some maps don't have Israel on it at all just Palestine

Pfft, some people disagree on the most obvious of issues. Take cass (and a couple of other like-minded posters) here for example, who simply can't resist expressing his ignorant, bigoted views on Islam regardless of the fact that I routinely post verses lifted directly from the Qur'an itself that blatantly falsify his claims.

[TheSumOfGod]

Another thread that shall never have a satisfying conclusion. For once, I'd like to see one of these neverending threads actually END, with one side of the arguement finally saying: "You know what? You're right! We were wrong to think otherwise! Now... what are Tom and Katie up to?" :rolleyes: ;)

[InsaneMembrane]

Oh, so Israel giving back only a piece of land that never even belonged to it in the first place which it had forcefully and illegally occupied is called a "concession" in your political dictionary? Wow...

So you are saying that you expect Israel just to pack up and leave all the post-1967 lands in one go....?

Uhh, so? What does that have to do with their involvement in the Lebanese government and the percentage of the Lebanese population that supports them?


Are you familiar with Canadian politics? This is like the NDP making a giant militia much stronger than the army(our army sucks so they could do it) and using Canada to attack the US since they don't agree with the War in Iraq. The NDP has refused to give up their arms no matter what... and are supported by a segment of the population yet the majority who have no weapons are scared of a civil war don't do anything...I would hope the NDP would fly their milita to Iraq and resist there...Hezbollah is holding Lebanon hostage


What did I say earlier about resistance factions helping each other out of mutual understanding and a common goal? Hezbollah doesn't appear to be fighting for the Lebanese, but rather helping out the Palestenians in their cause.

Yet they are doing it on Lebanese soil without their permission, they aren't a majority there so why don't they move to occupied Palestinians lands to continue the resistance...?


I believe violation of human rights is very much trivial compared to the utter disregard for civilian lives in air raids and ground demolitions, illegal occupation, forcing residents into refugee camps, razing homes, taking thousands prisoner without charges or trial and whatnot. Personally speaking, I've had to endure cases of Human Rights violations within my own country (and I'm sure many immigrant in other countries also have) so forgive me for thinking of it as comparitively insignificant in contrast to the massacres in the Israeli-Palestenian conflict.

What Massacres? on either side I dont think there have been any UN declared massacres...I'm sure the people being tortured and killed in Saudi Arabian jails, North korean Jails, Egyptian jails, will be thrilled to know that.. The Islamic resistance seems to have the Israeli-Palestinian covered so I think Christians can take on these relatively trivial human rights violations..

Pfft, some people disagree on the most obvious of issues. Take cass (and a couple of other like-minded posters) here for example, who simply can't resist expressing his ignorant, bigoted views on Islam regardless of the fact that I routinely post verses lifted directly from the Qur'an itself that blatantly falsify his claims.

That is why I asking you to clarify your views and you have

.....

[Phaser]

So you are saying that you expect Israel just to pack up and leave all the post-1967 lands in one go....?

What's so hard about giving back what was not yours to begin with?

Are you familiar with Canadian politics? This is like the NDP making a giant militia much stronger than the army(our army sucks so they could do it) and using Canada to attack the US since they don't agree with the War in Iraq. The NDP has refused to give up their arms no matter what... and are supported by a segment of the population yet the majority who have no weapons are scared of a civil war don't do anything...I would hope the NDP would fly their milita to Iraq and resist there...Hezbollah is holding Lebanon hostage

What do you mean "Hezbollah is holding Lebanon hostage"? Please elaborate.

Yet they are doing it on Lebanese soil without their permission, they aren't a majority there so why don't they move to occupied Palestinians lands to continue the resistance...?

Like I said before, elected officials rarely, if ever ask "permission" from the general public for anything. The public elected them to make decisions on their behalf that's what they do. If the public doesn't approve, they don't get a consecutive term. The fact that Hezbollah still has power within the government is only indicative of the fact that there is a certain minority in the Lebanese population that wants Hezbollah there. Tough luck, because that's how democracy seems to work, apparently.

What Massacres? on either side I dont think there have been any UN declared massacres...

I was talking about the the huge number of innocent civilian fatalities on both sides since the start of this conflict.

I'm sure the people being tortured and killed in Saudi Arabian jails, North korean Jails, Egyptian jails, will be thrilled to know that.. The Islamic resistance seems to have the Israeli-Palestinian covered so I think Christians can take on these relatively trivial human rights violations.

Knock yourselves out then. Just don't overdo it. You are fighting for a "relatively trivial" cause after all. ;)

[InsaneMembrane]

heh I have to go to the gym but I'll get back to this :up:

[Alonsovich]

"Only the dead have seen the end of war..." - Plato

[Superman4ever]

But it's odd how Palestinians purposely target women and children while Israel targets terrorists, unlike some people, I have no sympathy for terrorists.

Really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl5ElFVR2vA&mode=related&search=

...just sayin'!

[TheSumOfGod]

^cass' ignorance is truly astounding.

[TheSumOfGod]

"Only the dead have seen the end of war..." - Plato

lol Your sig rules. Did he do it after all? :D

[Superman4ever]

This is from a new documentary coming out called Occupation 101...it looks pretty interesting. Some of you need a reality check...ISRAEL is NOT innocent! I hate Hamas with a passion, but there are 2 sides to this coin and both sided have a LOT to answer for.

No one pull the Anti-semite card on me. My family is half-Jewish (I've said this countless times now) and I have more family living in Israel whom are Jews than most of you actually know Jews. My Aunt and cousins were mere blocks from the rocket bombings in Hiafa.

http://occupation101.com/Intro_stream_hi.html

http://occupation101.com

[Tangled Web]

You guys are all a bunch of anti-semites.

[InsaneMembrane]

What's so hard about giving back what was not yours to begin with?

What's so hard about non-violent resistance?

What do you mean "Hezbollah is holding Lebanon hostage"? Please elaborate.

The majority of Lebanese don't want Hezbollah armed as it goes against their interest...all the other militias disarmed except for Hezbollah who have funding from Syria and Iran...so their military might greatly overpowers the lackluster army and the army is largely made up of Shias and the government is afraid they would desert...people don't show dissent against Hezbollah; the Prime Minister hasn't even mentioned Hezbollah or Nasarallah once in all of his speaches; why? because they are scared of what Hezbollah will do, Hezbollah with their weapons has them held hostage, and no amount of voting will make Hezbollah disarm and the Lebanese are too scared to do anything about it

Like I said before, elected officials rarely, if ever ask "permission" from the general public for anything. The public elected them to make decisions on their behalf that's what they do. If the public doesn't approve, they don't get a consecutive term. The fact that Hezbollah still has power within the government is only indicative of the fact that there is a certain minority in the Lebanese population that wants Hezbollah there. Tough luck, because that's how democracy seems to work, apparently.

You can't claim to use democracy since Hezbollah only follows it when it suits them; they ran for office got some seats; when the majority government asked them to follow the taif agreement they refused to and vowed never to give up arms... I'm saying the Lebanese are so cowed by Hezbollah's weapons and the fear of civil war that they don't implement there own agreements

I was talking about the the huge number of innocent civilian fatalities on both sides since the start of this conflict.

I see

Knock yourselves out then. Just don't overdo it. You are fighting for a "relatively trivial" cause after all. ;)
I can't promise anything ;)

....

[Addendum]

You guys are all a bunch of anti-semites.
Yet another person who equates criticism of Israel with anti-semitism

[Cho Chang]

Yet another person who equates criticism of Israel with anti-semitismI think it was a joke, dude.

[Alonsovich]

lol Your sig rules. Did he do it after all? :D

Nope. But he mysteriously quit posting...:D

[Gonking]

You guys are all a bunch of anti-semites.

Typical.

[StarvingArtist]

To simply say that Jews "stole" the land from the Arabs is a staggeringly one-sided, ignorant, and simplistic view of this situation and of history and those who use it as an excuse to favor terrorists and people who have no ****ing grasp on reality add nothing positive to this problem.

[demento]

To simply say that Jews "stole" the land from the Arabs is a staggeringly one-sided, ignorant, and simplistic view of this situation and of history and those who use it as an excuse to favor terrorists and people who have no ****ing grasp on reality add nothing positive to this problem.
:up: :up:

[Addendum]

Because everyone knows how much merit and weight internet message boards have in changing world events...

[StarvingArtist]

Because everyone knows how much merit and weight internet message boards have in changing world events...

Might not do a damn thing to stop the bombs from dropping, but enlightenment on any level can only help.

[Gonking]

Maybe... But I'm right.

you said "they only want death and destruction". I suppose Israel wants Peace and red roses. Don't?

[JLBats]

This conversation is just going around in circles.

[StarvingArtist]

you said "they only want death and destruction". I suppose Israel wants Peace and red roses. Don't?

Uh...actually they really do.

[Superman4ever]

To simply say that Jews "stole" the land from the Arabs is a staggeringly one-sided, ignorant, and simplistic view of this situation and of history and those who use it as an excuse to favor terrorists and people who have no ****ing grasp on reality add nothing positive to this problem.

And you have a staggeringly one-sided, ignorant, and simplistic view of this situation, and of history, to use as an excuse for an illegal military occupation of an indigenous people and nation using inhumane and uncompromising assaults under the cloak of "defense and security." You're not really bringing anything positive to the table so we'll just disregard you!

you said "they only want death and destruction". I suppose Israel wants Peace and red roses. Don't?

Uh...actually they really do.

And this argument is NOT one-sided? And how do you know this...did the TV tell you? Or was it Jesus? Again nothing positive to the table.

I guess someone forgot to tell Rachel Corrie that she was protesting for no reason then, or by your accounts on the wrong side, Hmmm?

[Mr Sparkle]

To simply say that Jews "stole" the land from the Arabs is a staggeringly one-sided, ignorant, and simplistic view of this situation and of history and those who use it as an excuse to favor terrorists and people who have no ****ing grasp on reality add nothing positive to this problem.

and to simply act as if there's no motive behind the actions of resistance fighters and extremists all the way to terrorists is "a staggeringly one-sided, ignorant, and simplistic view of this situation and of history" ignoring these circumstances and simply choosing to believe what one wants to believe with no regard for the actual and historical situations around a specific problem also adds nothing positive.

[StarvingArtist]

You people are way too irrational and more interested in making assumptions and putting words in my mouth then having a civil discussion.

[Man-Thing]

http://www.targetofopportunity.com/jewish_occupation.gif



GoY:up:

[Kurosawa]

http://www.targetofopportunity.com/jewish_occupation.gif



GoY:up:

End of discussion.

Bottom line Muslims-or extremist Muslims that is-are ignorant racist intolerant bigots and are a cancer to the planet.

Sometimes I think the world would be better off if we were all athiests.

[StarvingArtist]

Okay... you people are way too irrational and way too interested in sounding off, putting words in my mouth and making assumptions about my views then having a civil debate, so I guess I'll save the logical dialogue for people who actually know what they're talking about.

[War Lord]

I guess someone forgot to tell Rachel Corrie that she was protesting for no reason then, or by your accounts on the wrong side, Hmmm?

You mean this Rachel Corrie?

Rafah, of course, is where terror advocate Rachel Corrie died in a bulldozer accident, caused by her efforts to protect weapon-smuggling tunnels.

Yeah, that makes me sad.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110007557

[War Lord]

Oh, so Israel giving back only a piece of land that never even belonged to it in the first place which it had forcefully and illegally occupied is called a "concession" in your political dictionary? Wow...

Every piece of land that was in Israel's possession belonged to Israel, whether it was the original 1949 borders or the land it won in 6 successive wars, none of which it started.

Israel never stole land.

[Superman4ever]

You mean this Rachel Corrie?

Yeah, that makes me sad.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110007557

No, I meant this one:


This weekend 23-year-old American peace activist Rachel Corrie was crushed to death by a bulldozer as she tried to prevent the Israeli army destroying homes in the Gaza Strip.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,916299,00.html

American peace activist Rachel Corrie was murdered by an Israeli bulldozer driver on 16 March 2003 while attempting to defend a Palestinian doctor's home from demolition.

http://electronicintifada.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/7/1263

[Superman4ever]

Every piece of land that was in Israel's possession belonged to Israel, whether it was the original 1949 borders or the land it won in 6 successive wars, none of which it started.

Israel never stole land.

Actually you're right! Prior to 1949 Israel wasn't around...it was Palestine.

[War Lord]

No, I meant this one:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,916299,00.html



http://electronicintifada.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/7/1263

Except, Israel was mainly trying to destroy the tunnels that terrorist dig to try and smuggle weapons for the sole purpose of killing Israelis and Ms. Corrie was trying to prevent that.

[War Lord]

Actually you're right! Prior to 1949 Israel wasn't around...it was Palestine.

You're right, except on one point. Prior to 1949, it was British land.

They owned it fair and square, as a result of winning some past battles there.

[Superman4ever]

You're right, except on one point. Prior to 1949, it was British land.

They owned it fair and square, as a result of winning some past battles there.

They won it "fair and square?"

You're forgetting about the actual Arab revolt of 1917 (actually '16-'18, but it pretty much ended in '17), that was encouraged by the British, specially, T. E. Lawrence, against the Ottoman Empire, who were sided with the allies' sworn enemy Ze Germans! The British promised an independent, free and united ARAB union IF they revolted against the Ottomans. And when the Arabs won, they got screwed by Sykes-Picot Agreement and Balfour Declaration, which were in secret contradiction with what the Arabs were promised for their loyalty to the allies.

[Superman4ever]

You're right, except on one point. Prior to 1949, it was British land.

They owned it fair and square, as a result of winning some past battles there.

They won it "fair and square?"

You're forgetting about the actual Arab revolt of 1917 (actually '16-'18, but it pretty much ended in '17), that was encouraged by the British, specially, T. E. Lawrence, against the Ottoman Empire, who were sided with the allies' sworn enemy Ze Germans! The British promised an independent, free and united ARAB union IF they revolted against the Ottomans. And when the Arabs won, they got screwed by Sykes-Picot Agreement and Balfour Declaration, which were in secret contradiction with what the Arabs were promised for their loyalty to the allies.

Maybe you should do a little more reading in those "books" you have...

[Phaser]

What's so hard about non-violent resistance?

You must be kidding me. Non-violent resistance against violent occupation? Again, brush up on your history lately? The Amercican and Scottish wars for Independence? The Indian Revolt of 1857 and the uprising of Nationalist groups in response to the Jalian wala Baagh massacre?

The majority of Lebanese don't want Hezbollah armed as it goes against their interest...all the other militias disarmed except for Hezbollah who have funding from Syria and Iran...so their military might greatly overpowers the lackluster army and the army is largely made up of Shias and the government is afraid they would desert...people don't show dissent against Hezbollah; the Prime Minister hasn't even mentioned Hezbollah or Nasarallah once in all of his speaches; why? because they are scared of what Hezbollah will do, Hezbollah with their weapons has them held hostage, and no amount of voting will make Hezbollah disarm and the Lebanese are too scared to do anything about it

You can't claim to use democracy since Hezbollah only follows it when it suits them; they ran for office got some seats; when the majority government asked them to follow the taif agreement they refused to and vowed never to give up arms... I'm saying the Lebanese are so cowed by Hezbollah's weapons and the fear of civil war that they don't implement there own agreements

I fail to see how exactly it is against the Lebanese interests to have Hezbollah armed. In fact, the Lebanese government did not try to disarm the Hezbollah during the 1990-2000 period, justifying its position by the fact that Hezbollah was a legitimate national resistance force, fighting for the liberation of the south, then occupied by Israel.

[InsaneMembrane]

You must be kidding me. Non-violent resistance against violent occupation? Again, brush up on your history lately? The Amercican and Scottish wars for Independence? The Indian Revolt of 1857 and the uprising of Nationalist groups in response to the Jalian wala Baagh massacre?

Scotland isn't independent now is it? And it seems that Ghandi and the Quit India movement did more for the cause than the armed groups did... I'm not saying that violent uprisings never work but it certainily isn't the only way

I fail to see how exactly it is against the Lebanese interests to have Hezbollah armed. In fact, the Lebanese government did not try to disarm the Hezbollah during the 1990-2000 period, justifying its position by the fact that Hezbollah was a legitimate national resistance force, fighting for the liberation of the south, then occupied by Israel.


You mean the Syrian puppet regime in charge from 1990-2000...once the Cedar revolution happened calls for Hezbollah to disarm came from the government.. Hezbollah just ignored it... I mean to have Hezbollah armed now the south has been liberated all other militias have disarmed is against the majority of Lebaneses' interests



....

[War Lord]

They won it "fair and square?"

You're forgetting about the actual Arab revolt of 1917 (actually '16-'18, but it pretty much ended in '17), that was encouraged by the British, specially, T. E. Lawrence, against the Ottoman Empire, who were sided with the allies' sworn enemy Ze Germans! The British promised an independent, free and united ARAB union IF they revolted against the Ottomans. And when the Arabs won, they got screwed by Sykes-Picot Agreement and Balfour Declaration, which were in secret contradiction with what the Arabs were promised for their loyalty to the allies.

Maybe you should do a little more reading in those "books" you have...

I didn't know you were still being ruled by the Ottomans.

Where have I been?

[Phaser]

Scotland isn't independent now is it? And it seems that Ghandi and the Quit India movement did more for the cause than the armed groups did... I'm not saying that violent uprisings never work but it certainily isn't the only way

Gandhi came on the stage more than 70 years after the first revolt of 1857, with many violent uprisings that followed. He may have been instrumental in winning independence for India but his contribution was only a part of the move for independence that spanned 90 years.

My point is that no country has ever been able to accomplish anything against violent occupation by foreign rules with pacifist means only. Which is why the examples of Scottish and American wars for independence are relevant.

You mean the Syrian puppet regime in charge from 1990-2000...once the Cedar revolution happened calls for Hezbollah to disarm came from the government.. Hezbollah just ignored it... I mean to have Hezbollah armed now the south has been liberated all other militias have disarmed is against the majority of Lebaneses' interests

I see that you are arguing about the need for Hezbollah to disarm because of their position in Lebanon, regardless of the fact that you brought the whole point up to begin with. You asked me if I feel Hezbollah should disarm and I replied with a simple - "Not as long as Israel continues it's illegal occupation of Palestenian territories. Different nations and resistance factions have often helped each other out of mutual understanding and a common goal". Hezbollah may be, as you say, a bunch of hypocrites, but the Palestenians, barely have anything to fight back with. If it weren't for aiding resistance factions, in my estimation, it's not too far-fetched to assume Israel would have steamrolled over the Palestenians long ago.

[Phaser]

I didn't know you were still being ruled by the Ottomans.

Where have I been?

He was clearly debating your point about the British owning the land "fair and square". Quit acting like a smartass.

[War Lord]

He was clearly debating your point about the British owning the land "fair and square". Quit acting like a smartass.

Who's acting?

[Phaser]

Who's acting?

Oh right. You are a smartass.

[War Lord]

Oh right. You are a smartass.

Darn Tootin'

[Gamma Ray]

http://www.targetofopportunity.com/jewish_occupation.gif




That saddens me. Israel is so tiny and yet it causes so much debate because... WHY?! Haven't the Jewish people merited their own land after everything they've been put through? Sick, sick world we live in... :(

[Jolie_Desastre]

well ya it's getting worse here. and frankly ...i'm not gonna lie...i'm scared as hell! we are safely at my aunt's house in the mountains right now. we can still here the bombs though. but they won't attack the mountains. one bomb was so big last night the windows shook. i broke down so bad that my parents had to calm me down. i'm fine now though. i'm actually in beirut. in hamra. so they won't attack here either. i'm getting pretty sick of the news but that's all they are putting on tv. i've seen about a dozen dead bodies on our television screen. for some of those who say the middle easterns brought this one themselves...why don't you tell that to the two little girls who lost their whole family in one blast. or to the dead girl with her eyes and lips burnt shut. or to the people who burnt alive in a truck or to the dead people being loaded on to a truck in plastic bags, or to the dead guy with his calf bone ripped out of his calf( and yes they showed all this) things like that really change a person. now whenever someone says war is a good thing or just turn on the news for ten minutes knowing there is a war going on in a country far away, i'll know for sure what is happening there. i don't hate israel. i really don't. i actually wanted to visit jerusalem someday, and i like natalie portman. but to me i'm really pissed at their gov't our gov't. hell every gov't.

but long story short. this isn't anything new to lebanon and israel. i haven't read this whole thread so sorry if this has been mentioned before. lebanon and israel have a long ass past. there was another war here, my parents went through the exact same things the youth in lebanon is going through now. i don't know who started it and i really don't care anymore. the only ones suffering are the innocent civilians living here now.

[PrinceAlbert]

I'll see you in heaven, kid.

[Iceman]

well ya it's getting worse here. and frankly ...i'm not gonna lie...i'm scared as hell! we are safely at my aunt's house in the mountains right now. we can still here the bombs though. but they won't attack the mountains. one bomb was so big last night the windows shook. i broke down so bad that my parents had to calm me down. i'm fine now though. i'm actually in beirut. in hamra. so they won't attack here either. i'm getting pretty sick of the news but that's all they are putting on tv. i've seen about a dozen dead bodies on our television screen. for some of those who say the middle easterns brought this one themselves...why don't you tell that to the two little girls who lost their whole family in one blast. or to the dead girl with her eyes and lips burnt shut. or to the people who burnt alive in a truck or to the dead people being loaded on to a truck in plastic bags, or to the dead guy with his calf bone ripped out of his calf( and yes they showed all this) things like that really change a person. now whenever someone says war is a good thing or just turn on the news for ten minutes knowing there is a war going on in a country far away, i'll know for sure what is happening there. i don't hate israel. i really don't. i actually wanted to visit jerusalem someday, and i like natalie portman. but to me i'm really pissed at their gov't our gov't. hell every gov't.

but long story short. this isn't anything new to lebanon and israel. i haven't read this whole thread so sorry if this has been mentioned before. lebanon and israel have a long ass past. there was another war here, my parents went through the exact same things the youth in lebanon is going through now. i don't know who started it and i really don't care anymore. the only ones suffering are the innocent civilians living here now.It sounds absolutely horrible. Whatever the history between the two countries and whoever is to blame, it's innocent people who are being maimed/killed now. I hope you get out safely and quickly.

[Slipknot]

well ya it's getting worse here. and frankly ...i'm not gonna lie...i'm scared as hell! we are safely at my aunt's house in the mountains right now. we can still here the bombs though. but they won't attack the mountains. one bomb was so big last night the windows shook. i broke down so bad that my parents had to calm me down. i'm fine now though. i'm actually in beirut. in hamra. so they won't attack here either. i'm getting pretty sick of the news but that's all they are putting on tv. i've seen about a dozen dead bodies on our television screen. for some of those who say the middle easterns brought this one themselves...why don't you tell that to the two little girls who lost their whole family in one blast. or to the dead girl with her eyes and lips burnt shut. or to the people who burnt alive in a truck or to the dead people being loaded on to a truck in plastic bags, or to the dead guy with his calf bone ripped out of his calf( and yes they showed all this) things like that really change a person. now whenever someone says war is a good thing or just turn on the news for ten minutes knowing there is a war going on in a country far away, i'll know for sure what is happening there. i don't hate israel. i really don't. i actually wanted to visit jerusalem someday, and i like natalie portman. but to me i'm really pissed at their gov't our gov't. hell every gov't.

but long story short. this isn't anything new to lebanon and israel. i haven't read this whole thread so sorry if this has been mentioned before. lebanon and israel have a long ass past. there was another war here, my parents went through the exact same things the youth in lebanon is going through now. i don't know who started it and i really don't care anymore. the only ones suffering are the innocent civilians living here now.
You should probably try to get out of there. They are trying to get people from the U.S. out now. They will take you to Cyprus I believe. They are trying to evacuate as many civilians from other countries as possible, getting people out on to helicopters and onto ships and then taken to neighboring countries such as Cyprus. You should see if you can contact the U.S. embassy or something and try to get the hell out of there. If Syria/Iran gets involved then it will be even more difficult to get out.

[Slipknot]

They are sending a cruise ship to the region and will try and evacuate quite a few of the many U.S. citizens in Lebanon right now. I don't think anywhere is safe in Lebanon right now... Israel will bomb any place where they suspect Hezbollah members to be located. Click here (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/18/lebanon.evacuation/index.html) for the CNN story about the evacuation.

[cass]

Really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl5ElFVR2vA&mode=related&search=

...just sayin'!

While that's unfortunate, compare that to the death tolls of innocents that were purposely targeted by Islamofascists. There is no comparison.

[cass]

^cass' ignorance is truly astounding.

Oh yes, because I don't believe in the Iranian invasion coming up later this month that you've been predicting and changing dates on for 2 years.

[Gonking]

You're right, except on one point. Prior to 1949, it was British land.

They owned it fair and square, as a result of winning some past battles there.

1) It wasn't british lands, it was a Trusteeship established by United Nations wich gave it to Great Britain.

2) they didn't won it as a result of batlles, UN nations gave it.

[raybia]

End of discussion.

Bottom line Muslims-or extremist Muslims that is-are ignorant racist intolerant bigots and are a cancer to the planet.

Sometimes I think the world would be better off if we were all athiests.

Freudian slip? You gotta it right the first time. And you have the audacity to say Muslims are ignorant, racist, intolerant, bigots and a cancer? You sir just described yourself.

You do a disservice to your avatar by the way.


Here a pic you can use for your new one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/images/hitler_adolf.jpg

[raybia]

You people are way too irrational and more interested in making assumptions and putting words in my mouth then having a civil discussion.


Great rebuttal!!! :up: :up: :)
















:rolleyes:

[raybia]

That saddens me. Israel is so tiny and yet it causes so much debate because... WHY?! Haven't the Jewish people merited their own land after everything they've been put through? Sick, sick world we live in... :(


Worst argument ever. :down

[raybia]

That saddens me. Israel is so tiny and yet it causes so much debate because... WHY?! Haven't the Jewish people merited their own land after everything they've been put through? Sick, sick world we live in... :(


I guess with everything that Israel has been through its time to inflict a little payback eh?







well ya it's getting worse here. and frankly ...i'm not gonna lie...i'm scared as hell! we are safely at my aunt's house in the mountains right now. we can still here the bombs though. but they won't attack the mountains. one bomb was so big last night the windows shook. i broke down so bad that my parents had to calm me down. i'm fine now though. i'm actually in beirut. in hamra. so they won't attack here either. i'm getting pretty sick of the news but that's all they are putting on tv. i've seen about a dozen dead bodies on our television screen. for some of those who say the middle easterns brought this one themselves...why don't you tell that to the two little girls who lost their whole family in one blast. or to the dead girl with her eyes and lips burnt shut. or to the people who burnt alive in a truck or to the dead people being loaded on to a truck in plastic bags, or to the dead guy with his calf bone ripped out of his calf( and yes they showed all this) things like that really change a person. now whenever someone says war is a good thing or just turn on the news for ten minutes knowing there is a war going on in a country far away, i'll know for sure what is happening there. i don't hate israel. i really don't. i actually wanted to visit jerusalem someday, and i like natalie portman. but to me i'm really pissed at their gov't our gov't. hell every gov't.

but long story short. this isn't anything new to lebanon and israel. i haven't read this whole thread so sorry if this has been mentioned before. lebanon and israel have a long ass past. there was another war here, my parents went through the exact same things the youth in lebanon is going through now. i don't know who started it and i really don't care anymore. the only ones suffering are the innocent civilians living here now.

[squeekness]

well ya it's getting worse here. and frankly ...i'm not gonna lie...i'm scared as hell! we are safely at my aunt's house in the mountains right now. we can still here the bombs though. but they won't attack the mountains. one bomb was so big last night the windows shook. i broke down so bad that my parents had to calm me down. i'm fine now though. i'm actually in beirut. in hamra. so they won't attack here either. i'm getting pretty sick of the news but that's all they are putting on tv. i've seen about a dozen dead bodies on our television screen. for some of those who say the middle easterns brought this one themselves...why don't you tell that to the two little girls who lost their whole family in one blast. or to the dead girl with her eyes and lips burnt shut. or to the people who burnt alive in a truck or to the dead people being loaded on to a truck in plastic bags, or to the dead guy with his calf bone ripped out of his calf( and yes they showed all this) things like that really change a person. now whenever someone says war is a good thing or just turn on the news for ten minutes knowing there is a war going on in a country far away, i'll know for sure what is happening there. i don't hate israel. i really don't. i actually wanted to visit jerusalem someday, and i like natalie portman. but to me i'm really pissed at their gov't our gov't. hell every gov't.

but long story short. this isn't anything new to lebanon and israel. i haven't read this whole thread so sorry if this has been mentioned before. lebanon and israel have a long ass past. there was another war here, my parents went through the exact same things the youth in lebanon is going through now. i don't know who started it and i really don't care anymore. the only ones suffering are the innocent civilians living here now.I hope you stay safe and come to no harm. War is ugly anywhere and I hope this one doesn't last long. I will say a prayer for you and your family.

[raybia]

well ya it's getting worse here. and frankly ...i'm not gonna lie...i'm scared as hell! we are safely at my aunt's house in the mountains right now. we can still here the bombs though. but they won't attack the mountains. one bomb was so big last night the windows shook. i broke down so bad that my parents had to calm me down. i'm fine now though. i'm actually in beirut. in hamra. so they won't attack here either. i'm getting pretty sick of the news but that's all they are putting on tv. i've seen about a dozen dead bodies on our television screen. for some of those who say the middle easterns brought this one themselves...why don't you tell that to the two little girls who lost their whole family in one blast. or to the dead girl with her eyes and lips burnt shut. or to the people who burnt alive in a truck or to the dead people being loaded on to a truck in plastic bags, or to the dead guy with his calf bone ripped out of his calf( and yes they showed all this) things like that really change a person. now whenever someone says war is a good thing or just turn on the news for ten minutes knowing there is a war going on in a country far away, i'll know for sure what is happening there. i don't hate israel. i really don't. i actually wanted to visit jerusalem someday, and i like natalie portman. but to me i'm really pissed at their gov't our gov't. hell every gov't.

but long story short. this isn't anything new to lebanon and israel. i haven't read this whole thread so sorry if this has been mentioned before. lebanon and israel have a long ass past. there was another war here, my parents went through the exact same things the youth in lebanon is going through now. i don't know who started it and i really don't care anymore. the only ones suffering are the innocent civilians living here now.


ASA, Jolie

I will be praying for the safety of both you and your family.

Peace

[Wilhelm-Scream]

What's all this talk of "prayers"?
None of this would be happening if it wasn't for God.:confused:

[Dark Vigilante]

I have a feeling that things are going to get much worse before it even begins to get better over there. Olmert is demanding that Hezbollah disarm, that they return the two kidnapped soldiers, and that the Lebanese government take control of southern Lebanon to create a "buffer zone" between Israel and Hezbollah, thus distancing the area from which rockets can be launched. None of this will happen. Hezbollah will never disarm as long as it has the support of Syria and Iran, which I'm sure it won't lose. No "proof of life" has been given concerning the Israeli soldiers, and in a situation like this one would think hostages would be used as a political ploy, leading me to believe that perhaps the soldiers have been executed. And theres no way in hell the Lebanese government is going to stand up to Hezbollah. Hezbollah might as well be the Lebanese government. I think that eventually, Israel is going to be provoked into an offensive against Syria, and in retaliation, Iran will become involved. After that, its total war in the Middle East, with fighting in Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Iraq, and perhaps even Israel itself.

I strongly doubt that any international pressure is going to compel Israel to end it's airstrikes, as they are very determined to disable Hezbollah to protect it's nortern cities. And certainly no pressure from the United States, the UN, or Israel itself is going to force Hezbollah to disarm. Only Syria and Iran can disarm Hezbollah, and why would they? Israel is their sworn enemy. They want nothing less but the destruction of Israel. Only a severe ultimatam delivered to Syria and more importantly, Iran, can end this conflict. But when your dealing with hardline, extremist governments that despise the West, it's people, it's culture, and it's governments, an ultimatem will only back them against a wall and thts when the **** will really hit the fan. This is why I see there being nothing but escalation in this situation in the near future.

Personally, I feel that once things escalate into a wider conflict in the Middle East, the United States should back off and let things run it's course. Without a doubt, gas prices will skyrocket to the highest they have ever been. In that case, switch everything over to ethanol, and end foreign dependancy on fuel. Pull out of the Middle East and let them do whatever the hell they want to do to each other. These people have been killing each other for thousands of years, and it will never end. That can't be argued. There will never be peace in the middle east. Ever. End our reliance on oil, and we can end our role in the Middle East. It may be a bit of an isolationist view, but at least we won't be losing people over there and throwing more billions of dollars into Iraq and the Middle East.

That is what I would like to see happen, but it won't. The U.S. is goign to get involved in this conflict for sure if it escalates beyond just Israel and Lebanon. This is the Holy Land we're talking about here. Every born again in the country is going to demand that it be protected, and of course, Bush will comply. So lets welcome back the draft, and make sure we work on our aim.

[Sarge 2.0]

well ya it's getting worse here. and frankly ...i'm not gonna lie...i'm scared as hell! we are safely at my aunt's house in the mountains right now. we can still here the bombs though. but they won't attack the mountains. one bomb was so big last night the windows shook. i broke down so bad that my parents had to calm me down. i'm fine now though. i'm actually in beirut. in hamra. so they won't attack here either. i'm getting pretty sick of the news but that's all they are putting on tv. i've seen about a dozen dead bodies on our television screen. for some of those who say the middle easterns brought this one themselves...why don't you tell that to the two little girls who lost their whole family in one blast. or to the dead girl with her eyes and lips burnt shut. or to the people who burnt alive in a truck or to the dead people being loaded on to a truck in plastic bags, or to the dead guy with his calf bone ripped out of his calf( and yes they showed all this) things like that really change a person. now whenever someone says war is a good thing or just turn on the news for ten minutes knowing there is a war going on in a country far away, i'll know for sure what is happening there. i don't hate israel. i really don't. i actually wanted to visit jerusalem someday, and i like natalie portman. but to me i'm really pissed at their gov't our gov't. hell every gov't.

but long story short. this isn't anything new to lebanon and israel. i haven't read this whole thread so sorry if this has been mentioned before. lebanon and israel have a long ass past. there was another war here, my parents went through the exact same things the youth in lebanon is going through now. i don't know who started it and i really don't care anymore. the only ones suffering are the innocent civilians living here now.That's horrible, Jolie. I sincerely hope that you get home with your family safely. :(

[raybia]

What's all this talk of "prayers"?
None of this would be happening if it wasn't for God.:confused:


The talk of prayers is directed towards Jolie and nothing has "happened" to her and her family at this point, so thats purpose of the prayers is asking G-d for her safe return.

Its really not that complicated of a concept...even for someone who doesn't practice it.