The Israel Situation

[kane9321]

well ya it's getting worse here. and frankly ...i'm not gonna lie...i'm scared as hell! we are safely at my aunt's house in the mountains right now. we can still here the bombs though. but they won't attack the mountains. one bomb was so big last night the windows shook. i broke down so bad that my parents had to calm me down. i'm fine now though. i'm actually in beirut. in hamra. so they won't attack here either. i'm getting pretty sick of the news but that's all they are putting on tv. i've seen about a dozen dead bodies on our television screen. for some of those who say the middle easterns brought this one themselves...why don't you tell that to the two little girls who lost their whole family in one blast. or to the dead girl with her eyes and lips burnt shut. or to the people who burnt alive in a truck or to the dead people being loaded on to a truck in plastic bags, or to the dead guy with his calf bone ripped out of his calf( and yes they showed all this) things like that really change a person. now whenever someone says war is a good thing or just turn on the news for ten minutes knowing there is a war going on in a country far away, i'll know for sure what is happening there. i don't hate israel. i really don't. i actually wanted to visit jerusalem someday, and i like natalie portman. but to me i'm really pissed at their gov't our gov't. hell every gov't.

but long story short. this isn't anything new to lebanon and israel. i haven't read this whole thread so sorry if this has been mentioned before. lebanon and israel have a long ass past. there was another war here, my parents went through the exact same things the youth in lebanon is going through now. i don't know who started it and i really don't care anymore. the only ones suffering are the innocent civilians living here now.


please..get outta there,,cyprus..those sick bastards will bomb everthing in sight..get to the choppa!

[raybia]

None of this would be happening if it wasn't for God.:confused:


Way to blame G-d and take mankind off the hook. What in the hell did G-d do for us anyway? Besides give us life and a world to support that life.

Maybe he should just rectify his "mistake" and blow us all the hell up once and for all. Fitting since most of us are ungrateful for existing in the first place.

[Mr Sparkle]

That saddens me. Israel is so tiny and yet it causes so much debate because... WHY?! Haven't the Jewish people merited their own land after everything they've been put through? Sick, sick world we live in... :(

Hey, Gamma Ray, I've been through a lot, (so has my family) so, tomorrow we're moving to your house.
you don't have to leave right away though.


you have untill thursday:up::)

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Maybe he should just rectify his "mistake" and blow us all the hell up once and for all.That is correct. I woke up last night in time to watch the national news, the local news and the BBC news, and then to watch several in-depth commentary-type shows.

Humanity is the most hideous scourge the planet has ever known.
Endless cycle of killing innocent people and feeling justified because of religious delusion and a base desire for revenge. There is no solution. Either you're evil because you act, or you're evil because you don't act.
The heartless, savage brutality of mankind is like a moon-sized grenade, exploding in slow motion and the best, most noble efforts of the finest people around are nothing more than trying to apply scotch tape to the grenade, while being maimed by the shrapnel.

[GarudA]

Maybe he should just rectify his "mistake" and blow us all the hell up once and for all. Fitting since most of us are ungrateful for existing in the first place.

But I just talked with my god, "Lord Zino" and he says, he will not let that happen. :rolleyes:

[Wilhelm-Scream]

When they accidentally reported that 12 of the miners in Virginia had been found alive, their loved ones said it was proof that God hears prayers.
Then when they cut in to say, "Uh, sorry, we were wrong, they actually found 12 BODIES." I guess it proved, that, he...didn't hear 'em.:confused:

[Colossal Spoons]

What's all this talk of "prayers"?
None of this would be happening if it wasn't for God.:confused:

Oh no, don't pin this on the Big Guy Upstairs. This is all hapenning because dumb human beings are doing what they think God wants.

[squeekness]

Oh no, don't pin this on the Big Guy Upstairs. This is all hapenning because dumb human beings are doing what they think God wants.This has nothing to do with God and everything to do about territory. This is about land and power, nothing more.

[raybia]

That is correct. I woke up last night in time to watch the national news, the local news and the BBC news, and then to watch several in-depth commentary-type shows.

Humanity is the most hideous scourge the planet has ever known.
Endless cycle of killing innocent people and feeling justified because of religious delusion and a base desire for revenge. There is no solution. Either you're evil because you act, or you're evil because you don't act.
The heartless, savage brutality of mankind is like a moon-sized grenade, exploding in slow motion and the best, most noble efforts of the finest people around are nothing more than trying to apply scotch tape to the grenade, while being maimed by the shrapnel.


I guess this is Humanity's test and we are failing miserably.

We don't have to wait to get judged by
G-d because we are already in Hell (on Earth.)

[Mr Sparkle]

That is correct. I woke up last night in time to watch the national news, the local news and the BBC news, and then to watch several in-depth commentary-type shows.

Humanity is the most hideous scourge the planet has ever known.
Endless cycle of killing innocent people and feeling justified because of religious delusion and a base desire for revenge. There is no solution. Either you're evil because you act, or you're evil because you don't act.
The heartless, savage brutality of mankind is like a moon-sized grenade, exploding in slow motion and the best, most noble efforts of the finest people around are nothing more than trying to apply scotch tape to the grenade, while being maimed by the shrapnel.


HOLY JESUS-****!!! :(
you have a nice day now, you hear?:)

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Oh no, don't pin this on the Big Guy Upstairs. This is all hapenning because dumb human beings are doing what they think God wants.There wouldn't be any humans and they wouldn't be dumb, if it wasn't for God. It is entirely his responsibility.
He's the one that wanted imperfect creatures to have free-will. He's the one that will supposedly create a paradise without suffering for his followers someday, but refuses to do so now for those who aren't smart, or learned, or good enough to know to follow his will on their own.
There was no suffering, no hate, no sin until God decided that that's what he wanted on Earth.

[raybia]

There was no suffering, no hate, no sin until God decided that that's what he wanted on Earth.

There is alot of good things too that wouldn't exist if it wasn't for G-d too. The bad news and the bad side of life always gets advertised more than the good.

If you are going to give G-d credit for the bad, at least give him credit for the good as well.

And it does exist. Just open your eyes at look...hard.

[TheSumOfGod]

There is alot of good things too that wouldn't exist if it wasn't for G-d too. The bad news and the bad side of life always gets advertised more than the good.

If you are going to give G-d credit for the bad, at least give him credit for the good as well.

And it does exist. Just open your eyes at look...hard.

I think that Wilhelm's point was that if the "God" of the Bible or Koran would have wanted to create an absolutely perfect world entirely devoid of evil or sin or hate or suffering, he would have. And saying that it's humanity's fault is a moot point since "God" created us as we are knowing full well what would inevitably happen. He could have created us perfect and naturally benevolent, but he didn't, he made us super-predators that want to kill and f*** everything that moves deep down inside.

[cass]

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-07-18T180844Z_01_OLI848020_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-IRAN-HIZBOLLAH.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

[Topdawg]

^ I knew that was gonna happen eventually.

[TheSumOfGod]

Here's a picture of Israeli children sending gifts to Lebanese children. Ain't that cute?

http://www.davidicke.com/images/stories/July32006/kidsisrael.jpg

[Topdawg]

^ ****** bastards.

[Superman4ever]

Here's a picture of Israeli children sending gifts to Lebanese children. Ain't that cute?

http://www.davidicke.com/images/stories/July32006/kidsisrael.jpg

Precious! :(

[TheSumOfGod]

http://www.davidicke.com/images/stories/July32006/kidsisrael.jpg

You can read that one of the little Israeli girls' name is "Daniele". So Lebanese people, if one of your loved ones is killed by one of these bombs, send Daniele a thank you note.

[cass]

http://www.davidicke.com/images/stories/July32006/kidsisrael.jpg



Gee I wonder why they're doing that....oh wait.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/rocketbatstyle/100603israel.jpg


http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/rocketbatstyle/bus_bombing_jeru.jpg

[Mr Sparkle]

Gee I wonder why they're doing that....oh wait.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/rocketbatstyle/100603israel.jpg


http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/rocketbatstyle/bus_bombing_jeru.jpg


"About 230 Lebanese people have been killed since then - the vast majority of them civilians, but including about 30 soldiers. The number of Hezbollah fighters killed is not known. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5192036.stm) Twenty-five Israelis have died - 13 civilians and 12 members of the military." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5192036.stm)




:confused:
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5192036.stm)

[Wilhelm-Scream]

not relevant here though. On a personal level, you don't think "Well, they killed my Mom, BUT, she was just one Mom and I'm sure they've lost many more moms than I have."

[cass]

Israel's laid out the terms: return their soldiers, stop bombing Israel, and control Hezbollah, and because it stands in the way of the goal of destroying Israel, the terms have been refused. They brought this on themselves.

[Mr Sparkle]

not relevant here though. On a personal level, you don't think "Well, they killed my Mom, BUT, she was just one Mom and I'm sure they've lost many more moms than I have."

of course not. everyone who loses a loved one is stricken with grief, regardless of numbers.
as always I merely try to point the lack of proportion to the measures given.

[Mr Sparkle]

Israel's laid out the terms: return their soldiers, stop bombing Israel, and control Hezbollah, and because it stands in the way of the goal of destroying Israel, the terms have been refused. They brought this on themselves.

LOL, I'm sure you believe that that cass, infact. I don't doubt for a second you do.
say, would you have reacted the same way if it was a pic of Lebanese or palestinian children painting messages in bombs?

of course not!

you would've pontificated about how all these children are taught "to hate" from an early age, and so forth.
yet, in this particular case you rush to defend the actions. seems like a double standard.

just thought you should know.

[Darthphere]

Stop hating on the kids Sparkle! They just want to make the bombs look prettier!

[cass]

say, would you have reacted the same way if it was a pic of Lebanese or palestinian children painting messages in bombs?



Would YOU have reacted the same way?

[Mr Sparkle]

Would YOU have reacted the same way?

yup. pretty much (how did I react anyway?):confused:

[PrinceAlbert]

Here's a picture of Israeli children sending gifts to Lebanese children. Ain't that cute?

http://www.davidicke.com/images/stories/July32006/kidsisrael.jpg

That is hot. I am having unclean thoughts. Dear Lord, help me.


Raybia, you don't know anything about God so stfu, hahahahha!!

[War Lord]

well ya it's getting worse here. and frankly ...i'm not gonna lie...i'm scared as hell! we are safely at my aunt's house in the mountains right now. we can still here the bombs though. but they won't attack the mountains. one bomb was so big last night the windows shook. i broke down so bad that my parents had to calm me down. i'm fine now though. i'm actually in beirut. in hamra. so they won't attack here either. i'm getting pretty sick of the news but that's all they are putting on tv. i've seen about a dozen dead bodies on our television screen. for some of those who say the middle easterns brought this one themselves...why don't you tell that to the two little girls who lost their whole family in one blast. or to the dead girl with her eyes and lips burnt shut. or to the people who burnt alive in a truck or to the dead people being loaded on to a truck in plastic bags, or to the dead guy with his calf bone ripped out of his calf( and yes they showed all this) things like that really change a person. now whenever someone says war is a good thing or just turn on the news for ten minutes knowing there is a war going on in a country far away, i'll know for sure what is happening there. i don't hate israel. i really don't. i actually wanted to visit jerusalem someday, and i like natalie portman. but to me i'm really pissed at their gov't our gov't. hell every gov't.

but long story short. this isn't anything new to lebanon and israel. i haven't read this whole thread so sorry if this has been mentioned before. lebanon and israel have a long ass past. there was another war here, my parents went through the exact same things the youth in lebanon is going through now. i don't know who started it and i really don't care anymore. the only ones suffering are the innocent civilians living here now.

I hope you'll be ok.

Whatever doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

[Mr Sparkle]

That is hot. I am having unclean thoughts. Dear Lord, help me.


Raybia, you don't know anything about God so stfu, hahahahha!!


OMFG! that was so random!!! OMFGSTFUBBQ!!!!!
that's so original!!! he's totally going to blow our minds with his irreverent banter!!!!

oh, you might be called "prince" albert (sic) but you are indeed a King.

[maxwell's demon]

OMFG! that was so random!!! OMFGSTFUBBQ!!!!!
that's so original!!! he's totally going to blow our minds with his irreverent banter!!!!

oh, you might be called "prince" albert (sic) but you are indeed a King.

you suck.


i just wanted to say that.

ok.

carry on.

[squeekness]

We suffer because only through suffering can we grow as people. If we never suffered, we would be static, boring people. Suffering makes us grateful for what we have, it makes us sympathize with others who suffer and want to help them. Suffering has its purpose. That having been said, most suffering is created by uncompromising, stubborn people who think they are better than the next guy. If people cared more about that sanctity of life and saw all people as being valuable, things wouldn't be as bad as they are.

[JLBats]

you suck.


i just wanted to say that.

ok.

carry on.

I've been waiting a long time for someone to just come out and say that:(:up:

[maxwell's demon]

I've been waiting a long time for someone to just come out and say that:(:up:

but i love him.

[cass]

you suck.


i just wanted to say that.

ok.

carry on.

lol

[Mr Sparkle]

you suck.


i just wanted to say that.

ok.

carry on.

alas, you remain master of the obvious :mad:


I keeeeeeel you!!!!

[Wilhelm-Scream]

We suffer because only through suffering can we grow as people. If we never suffered, we would be static, boring people. Suffering makes us grateful for what we have, it makes us sympathize with others who suffer and want to help them. Suffering has its purpose. That having been said, most suffering is created by uncompromising, stubborn people who think they are better than the next guy. If people cared more about that sanctity of life and saw all people as being valuable, things wouldn't be as bad as they are.So let me get this straight.

In the Biblical Heaven...We will be:

1) static, boring people who never grow
2) ungrateful
3) unsympathetic

ok:confused:

[JLBats]

but i love him.

Who doesn't?:down:(

[Mr Sparkle]

I've been waiting a long time for someone to just come out and say that:(:up:

Irony =1

Jlbats (and cass) = 0


and JL? stop pming me psycho!!!

[maxwell's demon]

So let me get this straight.

In the Biblical Heaven...We will be:

1) static, boring people who never grow
2) ungrateful
3) unsympathetic

ok:confused:

but theres free porn on tuesdays:confused: :up:

[PrinceAlbert]

OMFG! that was so random!!! OMFGSTFUBBQ!!!!!
that's so original!!! he's totally going to blow our minds with his irreverent banter!!!!

oh, you might be called "prince" albert (sic) but you are indeed a King.

hahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahahha!! WTF is this ssht? You make no sense kid. :) :up:

[JLBats]

Irony =1

Jlbats (and cass) = 0


and JL? stop pming me psycho!!!

If you would just cyber with me I would stop, lol

[Mr Sparkle]

hahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahahha!! WTF is this ssht? You make no sense kid. :) :up:

superherohype thread?

[maxwell's demon]

hahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahahha!! WTF is this ssht? You make no sense kid. :) :up:

no no no. he makes no SENSEI kid. no SENSEI.

[Mr Sparkle]

If you would just cyber with me I would stop, lol

you're not my type.:(
my type has a vagina.

[JLBats]

you're not my type.:(
my type has a vagina.

Blast you.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

It's hard to keep track of who sucks, who rules and who sucks (but only joking)
here.

Holly'll say she hopes you die, then 5 posts later say she'd really miss you if you were gone.

Psychos, man.

[JLBats]

It's hard to keep track of who sucks, who rules and who sucks (but only joking)
here.

I suck, Maxwell rules, and you blow.

[Mr Sparkle]

but theres free porn on tuesdays:confused: :up:

I'll be it'll be that awful cinemax porn where the girl sits squarely in the guys chest. but we know that her girl parts and his boy parts are miles away from each other.

you're not fooling anyone Cinemax!!!!

[maxwell's demon]

you're not my type.:(
my type has a vagina.

fro some reason i read this as:

you're not my type.:(
my type is vagina



it was much funnier that way.


ps- you suck.

[Mr Sparkle]

fro some reason i read this as:

you're not my type.:(
my type is vagina



it was much funnier that way.


ps- you suck.


:( vagina has a vagina.....uh....well.





:(

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I'll be it'll be that awful cinemax porn where the girl sits squarely in the guys chest. but we know that her girl parts and his boy parts are miles away from each other.

you're not fooling anyone Cinemax!!!!Anyway, as I tried to post earlier...Lol, I know. What are they thinking when they do that?
It looks like hump-crazy Mormon teens who were never taught the facts of life, giving into vague loin-urges they don't understand.

[squeekness]

So let me get this straight.

In the Biblical Heaven...We will be:

1) static, boring people who never grow
2) ungrateful
3) unsympathetic

ok:confused:In heaven we will be different than we are now because the whole situation is different. To get into heaven you will have had to acquire some degree of purity through your trials here on earth. Tragedy and suffering refine people and make them better, or one would hope so. There will always be suffering because we live on a volatile planet that has quakes and tsunamis. Think about how much better these situations could be handled if we didn't spend so much time fighting amongst ourselves.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

In heaven we will be different than we are now because the whole situation is different. To get into heaven you will have had to acquire some degree of purity through your trials here on earth.My Bible says that all of our righteous works are like filthy rags to God and that no man can be saved by his own merit, but rather because of the sacrifice made by Jesus. All you have to do is believe he is who he says he is and dedicate your life to him, though you'll still be a sinner till the day you die because the only perfect human was Jesus. That's why he has to forgive you to let you in to Heaven. He died to COVER your sins with his blood. Right?

Also, are you saying that babies who die can't get to Heaven? Because they have not been told the gospel and never had to make the "right choice" and never had to "acquire some degree of purity through trials here on Earth". Especially when compared with, say, an 80 year old woman in Afghanistan who was taught her entire life that there is only one God, Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.

She's never heard the Gospel and will die believing things that contradict Jesus. A baby never has to fight such indoctrination and ignorance.

Makes me wish I'd died as a baby, if Heaven and Hell are eternal and Jesus won't come and prove that he's any more real than any of the other deities.

[Mr Sparkle]

all MY trials have made me impure :( :down

[squeekness]

My Bible says that all of our righteous works are like filthy rags to God and that no man can be saved by his own merit, but rather because of the sacrifice made by Jesus. All you have to do is believe he is who he says he is and dedicate your life to him, though you'll still be a sinner till the day you die because the only perfect human was Jesus. That's why he has to forgive you to let you in to Heaven. He died to COVER your sins with his blood. Right?

Also, are you saying that babies who die can't get to Heaven? Because they have not been told the gospel and never had to make the "right choice" and never had to "acquire some degree of purity through trials here on Earth". Especially when compared with, say, an 80 year old woman in Afghanistan who was taught her entire life that there is only one God, Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.

She's never heard the Gospel and will die believing things that contradict Jesus. A baby never has to fight such indoctrination and ignorance.

Makes me wish I'd died as a baby, if Heaven and Hell are eternal and Jesus won't come and prove that he's any more real than any of the other deities.Not at all. We will be judged by our merits. I still firmly believe that any God fearing Jew or Muslim will be freely accepted by God if they were faithful to him and tried their best. What kind of cruel God would reject a baby? That's ridiculous. I don't even agree with the folks who say an illegitimate and unbaptized baby would be rejected on those same grounds. An infant or even a toddler really cannot sin, in my opinion, because sins are deliberate. Someone tells you not to do something and you do it anyway. That's sin. If you never knew it was wrong how could you deliberatly have offended God? That makes no sense and I would never agree with such flawed logic. :)

[USMC]

Not at all. We will be judged by our merits. I still firmly believe that any God fearing Jew or Muslim will be freely accepted by God if they were faithful to him and tried their best. What kind of cruel God would reject a baby? That's ridiculous. I don't even agree with the folks who say an illegitimate and unbaptized baby would be rejected on those same grounds. An infant or even a toddler really cannot sin, in my opinion, because sins are deliberate. Someone tells you not to do something and you do it anyway. That's sin. If you never knew it was wrong how could you deliberatly have offended God? That makes no sense and I would never agree with such flawed logic. :)

Yeah, but what if the baby were really, really ugly?

C'mon, I'm just saying what everyone else is thinking...:o

[squeekness]

Yeah, but what if the baby were really, really ugly?

C'mon, I'm just saying what everyone else is thinking...:oLOL. God sees the soul, not the outside. Only humans judge this way.

[Cho Chang]

Yeah, but what if the baby were really, really ugly?

C'mon, I'm just saying what everyone else is thinking...:o Trick question. Ugly Babies don't have souls so they can't be judged.

[Superman4ever]

Gee I wonder why they're doing that....oh wait.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/rocketbatstyle/100603israel.jpg


http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/rocketbatstyle/bus_bombing_jeru.jpg

I'm against terrorism whole heartedly, but this is a little more than "defense."

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~fayxx001/truth/img/israeli-soldiers.jpg
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~fayxx001/truth/palestine.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/980000/images/_981856_apgarrestafp300.jpg

They're not really the advocates of peace that you guys so firmly believe:

http://us.altermedia.info/images/gun1.jpg

Hmmm...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOdWJd8R2GE&search=israel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnWLqjXBLgw&search=israel%20violence

Israelies beating Americans in this one, actually Human rights workers...Oh, they also beat Arab kids, but who gives a **** about those animals right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhvE1YkbdPU&search=israel%20violence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLvi6zOBsNo&search=israel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP_YfAWyfZg&search=israel%20violence

[USMC]

Dude, I friggin' can't stand the Israeli gov't, they're as hypocritical as the American gov't.

:down

[rodhulk]

Not at all. We will be judged by our merits. I still firmly believe that any God fearing Jew or Muslim will be freely accepted by God if they were faithful to him and tried their best. What kind of cruel God would reject a baby? That's ridiculous. I don't even agree with the folks who say an illegitimate and unbaptized baby would be rejected on those same grounds. An infant or even a toddler really cannot sin, in my opinion, because sins are deliberate. Someone tells you not to do something and you do it anyway. That's sin. If you never knew it was wrong how could you deliberatly have offended God? That makes no sense and I would never agree with such flawed logic. :)Hi Squeek,

We chatted about this a bit before.

I still must say that we are not saved by our works but by the blood of Christ. Anybody who thinks against this has not accepted christ's work on the cross. If we could do it on our own, then why did Christ have to die?

Works are only really a type of confirmation that we have accepted Christ, it isn't saving anybody.

You see, if you haven't accepted Christ, then God, who is perfect, sees sin, so it doesn't matter about your works, they are as filthy rags because your hands are dirty (sin) which would dirty the rags and you can't enter heaven (a perfect 'clean' place) if Jesus's blood hasn't washed your hands (sins) = clean rags. God would still see sin and can't let you in (salvation). I hope this makes sense.

I think it's in the book of Hebrews that does talk about somebody who doesn't accept Christ and yet can stil be saved. This is, if I recall correctly, people who have not learned the truth on Christ which would be babies, kids, certain groups of people (some Indians, for example)etc.....

[Superman4ever]

James Miller:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)

He was killed by the Israel Defense Forces on May 2, 2003 while filming a documentary in Rafah. This documentary was entitled Death In Gaza, and was released by HBO in 2004. The film depicts Miller and his colleagues leaving the home of a Palestinian family in the Rafah refugee camp after dark, carrying a white flag. They had walked about 20 meters from the veranda when the first shot rings out. For 13 seconds, there is silence broken only by Saira’s cry: "We are British journalists." Then comes the second shot, which killed James. He was shot in the front of his neck. The bullet was Israeli issue, fired, according to a forensic expert, from less than 200 meters away. Immediately after the shooting, the IDF said that James had been shot in the back during crossfire. It later retracted the incorrect assertion about him being shot in the back. There was no crossfire according to some witnesses and there is none to be heard on the APTN tape.

How do you spin this?

http://www.cpj.org/news/2003/Israel05may03na.html
http://www.fmft.net/archives/000319.html
http://www.ifex.org/en/content/view/full/66039
http://www.justice4jamesmiller.com/

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Okay, I'm pissed.
For the FOURTH time, I'll try to respond to Squeekness.:mad: (but in a much simpler form as typing out 300 words on a post that never appears is devastatingish.)

F***, I can't even remember my early points and I don't care that much anymore.

Well for one, The thief that died next to Jesus on a cross...he did not soldier through a life of suffering to gain merit, qualifying him for salvation.

He was a sinner his whole life long, and a criminal, up until right before he died and believed Jesus, and that was all it took for Jesus to assure him that he would go to Paradise.

Also, the Bible says that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There is no way that a human could be born and decide not to be a sinner, because their sin is not a "deliberate" act.

Humans are born into a fallen state because Adam and Eve ate fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The second you're born, you're a sinner.
But Jesus said that "no man can come to the Father but by me". Everyone was destined for Hell unless
1) they adhered to the laws of the Old Testament and sacrificed animals to atone for their sins. Or,
2) Jesus came and sacrificed himself, so that his blood would cover our sins.

If you don't believe in the Bible, or the accuracy of the accounts, then that's cool. But otherwise, the Bible contradicts what you're saying.

[rodhulk]

Okay, I'm pissed.
For the FOURTH time, I'll try to respond to Squeekness.:mad: (but in a much simpler form as typing out 300 words on a post that never appears is devastatingish.)

F***, I can't even remember my early points and I don't care that much anymore.

Well for one, The thief that died next to Jesus on a cross...he did not soldier through a life of suffering to gain merit, qualifying him for salvation.

He was a sinner his whole life long, and a criminal, up until right before he died and believed Jesus, and that was all it took for Jesus to assure him that he would go to Paradise.

Also, the Bible says that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There is no way that a human could be born and decide not to be a sinner, because their sin is not a "deliberate" act.

Humans are born into a fallen state because Adam and Eve ate fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The second you're born, you're a sinner.
But Jesus said that "no man can come to the Father but by me". Everyone was destined for Hell unless
1) they adhered to the laws of the Old Testament and sacrificed animals to atone for their sins. Or,
2) Jesus came and sacrificed himself, so that his blood would cover our sins.

If you don't believe in the Bible, or the accuracy of the accounts, then that's cool. But otherwise, the Bible contradicts what you're saying.With the exception of #1 about the OT laws and animal sacrifices, everything you said is word. You sure you aren't christian?

As for #1, the sins were only covered by the animal sacrifice, it was Jesus' blood that actually washed the sins away. Even David looked forward to the messiah (Jesus) to bring salvation (knowing that the animal sacrifices didn't actually atone for sins).

[Wilhelm-Scream]

You sure you aren't christian?I was raised a "Born Again Christian", have studied doctrine (plus that of the Mormons, the Catholics and the Seventh Day Adventists extensively), I was coerced into reading the entire Bible (including all of the mind-numbing geneologies) 5 times through, and I went to Christian schools from 5th grade to my senior year.

Also I was devoted enough at one time that I decided to move out of my girlfriend's house, after living with her "in sin" for 4 years, because I felt "convicted".

So when I believed, I actually "walked the walk" unlike so many who profess to be "Christians". Unfortunately those were wasted years because at the root of it, it doesn't make sense and can't be true. I only learned that after many years of study, struggle, and simply growing older into maturity and becoming more honest with myself.

[rodhulk]

I was raised a "Born Again Christian", have studied doctrine (plus that of the Mormons, the Catholics and the Seventh Day Adventists extensively), I was coerced into reading the entire Bible (including all of the mind-numbing geneologies) 5 times through, and I went to Christian schools from 5th grade to my senior year.

Also I was devoted enough at one time that I decided to move out of my girlfriend's house, after living with her "in sin" for 4 years, because I felt "convicted".

So when I believed, I actually "walked the walk" unlike so many who profess to be "Christians". Unfortunately those were wasted years because at the root of it, it doesn't make sense and can't be true. I only learned that after many years of study, struggle, and simply growing older into maturity and becoming more honest with myself.Well, I could tell you have some christian background.

It's a struggle at times and I don't always say it, but I struggle with some things, too, in the christain world. I do belive in God and Jesus and his reason, I do believe in the prophecies of the Bible, I just sometimes wonder about certain events (past and present and most to all of them, non-prophecy).

[PrinceAlbert]

Okay, I'm pissed.
For the FOURTH time, I'll try to respond to Squeekness.:mad: (but in a much simpler form as typing out 300 words on a post that never appears is devastatingish.)

F***, I can't even remember my early points and I don't care that much anymore.

Well for one, The thief that died next to Jesus on a cross...he did not soldier through a life of suffering to gain merit, qualifying him for salvation.

He was a sinner his whole life long, and a criminal, up until right before he died and believed Jesus, and that was all it took for Jesus to assure him that he would go to Paradise.

Also, the Bible says that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There is no way that a human could be born and decide not to be a sinner, because their sin is not a "deliberate" act.

Humans are born into a fallen state because Adam and Eve ate fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The second you're born, you're a sinner.
But Jesus said that "no man can come to the Father but by me". Everyone was destined for Hell unless
1) they adhered to the laws of the Old Testament and sacrificed animals to atone for their sins. Or,
2) Jesus came and sacrificed himself, so that his blood would cover our sins.

If you don't believe in the Bible, or the accuracy of the accounts, then that's cool. But otherwise, the Bible contradicts what you're saying.

My God! What the f**k is this?! Aren't you a f**king athiest? You're an athiest posing as a Christian?--or are you actually a Christian posing as a f**king athiest on this SuperHearo Boards? You tell me. Are you trying to f**k around with God or soemthing kid?

Secondly, it says in the Bible, we can not get ourselves saved. There is no free will. God decides who will he save and allow to burn in Hell. The born again Christians were chosen before the foundation of the world. That's another thing churches do not teach you. As I keep f**king saying over and over again--all the churches and congregation are under the wrath of God now. The prophesy is being fufulled--straight from your f**King Bible!

Or should I say our?

Hmmm... *rubs chin*

:)

[JLBats]

My God! What the f**k is this?! Aren't you a f**king athiest? You're an athiest posing as a Christian?--or are you actually a Christian posing as a f**king athiest on this SuperHearo Boards? You tell me. Are you trying to f**k around with God or soemthing kid?

Secondly, it says in the Bible, we can not get ourselves saved. There is no free will. God decides who will he save and allow to burn in Hell. The born again Christians were chosen before the foundation of the world. That's another thing churches do not teach you. As I keep f**king saying over and over again--all the churches and congregation are under the wrath of God now. The prophesy is being fufulled--straight from your f**King Bible!

Or should I say our?

Hmmm... *rubs chin*

:)

Wow, he's going to beat the **** out of you with his words now.

It is mind-blowing and borderline horrifying, the egocentric tunnel-view that so many people have. So many times, too many to count, I'm laying waste to the contradictory hoax that is the Bible, and shattering it's preposterous cosmology, and then, "Bla bla bla, you ATHEISTS always bla bla".

It's staggering, the arrogance...that if you don't believe in THEIR conception of God, you must not believe in ANY God. For them there is no other possibility whatsover.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/Wilhelm-Scream/HYPE/rolleyesx100.jpg

[PrinceAlbert]

Stfu, JL Bats, how can a man like Wilhelm hurt me, when I know more about the Bible than he does? hahahahahhahahaha!!

The only religion where there is no free will is Christianity. You see, how f**ked up that is? Hahahahhahahahahaa

Oh man, we're all going to Hell if, in fact, there is a God!

[JLBats]

Also, you're completely wrong about that freewill thing. The cause of evil is freewill God gave us. It seems you have no clue what you're talking about.

[PrinceAlbert]

Don't you f**king tell me I don't know what the f**k I'm talking about, when you yourself have never read the f**king Bible for yourself.

Believe in your filthy lies and your pastor and church members, you will be the first to be judged, if in fact, the Bible is real.

[Darthphere]

Don't you f**king tell me I don't know what the f**k I'm talking about, when you yourself have never read the f**king Bible for yourself.

Believe in your filthy lies and your pastor and church members, you will be the first to be judged, if in fact, the Bible is real.


Im a christian, and as a representative of christianity im going to have to ask you to pipe down.

[squeekness]

Hi Squeek,

We chatted about this a bit before.

I still must say that we are not saved by our works but by the blood of Christ. Anybody who thinks against this has not accepted christ's work on the cross. If we could do it on our own, then why did Christ have to die?

Works are only really a type of confirmation that we have accepted Christ, it isn't saving anybody.

You see, if you haven't accepted Christ, then God, who is perfect, sees sin, so it doesn't matter about your works, they are as filthy rags because your hands are dirty (sin) which would dirty the rags and you can't enter heaven (a perfect 'clean' place) if Jesus's blood hasn't washed your hands (sins) = clean rags. God would still see sin and can't let you in (salvation). I hope this makes sense.

I think it's in the book of Hebrews that does talk about somebody who doesn't accept Christ and yet can stil be saved. This is, if I recall correctly, people who have not learned the truth on Christ which would be babies, kids, certain groups of people (some Indians, for example)etc.....That is what I was getting at when I was saying that a pious Jew or Muslim would still be accepted by God even if they have not accepted Christ. We are in agreement on this.

The same way that you reassure me that works alone are not going to save you, I also say that just accepting Christ will not be enough. If you believe in God and yet still exploit children for the sex trade, you will not be saved. It has to be a measure of both in tandem together. Faith brings about the desire to do good works. If it doesn't, then it is not true faith at all. Conversion must bring about noticible change or it wasn't a true conversion at all. I really do think you and I think the same way even if I am not so good at expressing it. :)

[InsaneMembrane]

Im a christian, and as a representative of christianity im going to have to ask you to pipe down.

Heh that reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Lenny and Carl are in that cult and Lenny keeps blabbing about it while Carl keeps telling him to shut up...

Now we just need to take care of Pat Robinson

[squeekness]

With the exception of #1 about the OT laws and animal sacrifices, everything you said is word. You sure you aren't christian?

As for #1, the sins were only covered by the animal sacrifice, it was Jesus' blood that actually washed the sins away. Even David looked forward to the messiah (Jesus) to bring salvation (knowing that the animal sacrifices didn't actually atone for sins).Agreed.

As to teh other point, it seems to me that thief being nailed to the cross was never given the opportunity do works after his conversion because he was dying. Jesus most certainly saw into his heart and saw the man really meant what he said and that was good enough. With us, our proof of fiath doesn't come from words alone. In the old days we offered sacrifices, today we help each other as signs for our faith. You can't 'earn' your way into heaven, but conversion can change your attitude on giving so that you give gleefully without expecting anything in return, including a garunteed spot in heaven. It does you no good to help anyone by giving all your stuff away if think you will buy your way into heaven or win God's favor. It has to be because you really want to help someone and faith can bring about that change in heart. An atheist who gives so freely I think would still be accepted into heaven simply because he felt such love for his fellow man that God will see it because God is love in its purest form.

[PrinceAlbert]

Im a christian, and as a representative of christianity im going to have to ask you to pipe down.

Who the hell are you to tell me to pipe down? Are you God? You see this is what happens when a false christian doesn't like what he's hearing. Everyone who goes to church will eventually be burning hell... it's a sad fact of life, if the Bible indeed keep its word. That includes you, bud.

[Darthphere]

Who the hell are you to tell me to pipe down? Are you God? You see this is what happens when a false christian doesn't like what he's hearing. Everyone who goes to church will eventually be burning hell... it's a sad fact of life, if the Bible indeed keep its word. That's includes you, kid.


Shhhhh, its going to be ok, theyre not going to hurt you anymore.

[squeekness]

Who the hell are you to tell me to pipe down? Are you God? You see this is what happens when a false christian doesn't like what he's hearing. Everyone who goes to church will eventually be burning hell... it's a sad fact of life, if the Bible indeed keep its word. That includes you, bud.How does going to church send you to hell? Attending mass or a service is you giving time out of your day for God. It's symbolic of your "yes" to Christ. Plus a person can get comfort and reassurance from being with other believers. A weekly dose of Scripture is also a plus. There is wisdom to be learned from the pulpit. Now if the guy stands up there and tells you lynch blacks and burn Jews, well, it might be time to look for another parish....

[Darthphere]

How does going to church send you to hell? Attending mass or a service is you giving time out of your day for God. It's symbolic of your "yes" to Christ. Plus a person can get comfort and reassurance from being with other believers. A weekly dose of Scripture is also a plus. There is wisdom to be learned from the pulpit. Now if the guy stands up there and tells you lynch blacks and burn Jews, well, it might be time to look for another parish....


I really dont understand the fool but apparently he hates christians who go to church because theyre hypocrites (somehting I agree with and reason why i stopped going, but I dont hate them) but it seems hes also christian or hes doing a fine job hiding it otherwise.

[squeekness]

I really dont understand the fool but apparently he hates christians who go to church because theyre hypocrites (somehting I agree with and reason why i stopped going, but I dont hate them) but it seems hes also christian or hes doing a fine job hiding it otherwise.I don't think a person HAS to go to church, but I do think that perhaps folks who do go regularly are possibly thinking about their faith a little more and not letting life get in the way of it so much. I don't think any one denomination is better than any other, we are all human, but I do understand some folks concerns such as the Catholic church not protecting its youngsters from bad priests and then hiding it. I don't blame the whole church for that, but it's obvious something has to be done about it. It looks like the current pope is at least trying to work it out. I have respect for all Christians even if we quibble about the little things.

[InsaneMembrane]

I really dont understand the fool but apparently he hates christians who go to church because theyre hypocrites (somehting I agree with and reason why i stopped going, but I dont hate them) but it seems hes also christian or hes doing a fine job hiding it otherwise.

I thought group prayer was something the bible reccomends...how does me going to church make me a hypocrite?

[PrinceAlbert]

In the Bible, God says to depart from the churches and congregations, again and again, during the end of the days.

What do you think will happen to you if you disobey this commandment?

[squeekness]

How do you know we are in the end of days?

[Darthphere]

I thought group prayer was something the bible reccomends...how does me going to church make me a hypocrite?


It doesnt, but in my experience a lot of those people who do are. I dont know you so I cant call you a hypocrite

[Kurosawa]

That saddens me. Israel is so tiny and yet it causes so much debate because... WHY?! Haven't the Jewish people merited their own land after everything they've been put through? Sick, sick world we live in... :(

Obviously not according to the bigots who are out to destroy it.

Nobody-and I mean NOBODY has been mistreated in the history of humankind like the Jews.

It's also interesting to note that several prominent Muslim leaders had relatives during WW II that were very cozy with the Nazis.

All of this current crap is cut from the same cloth as far as I'm concerned.

Clinton cut a deal where the Palestinians were to get 95% of what they wanted. The fact that they didn't take it proved once and for all to me that they do not want peace.

[Darthphere]

In the Bible, God says to depart from the churches and congregations, again and again, during the end of the days.

What do you think will happen to you if you disobey this commandment?


Its ok man, there are special places for you, asylums.

[rodhulk]

Agreed.

As to teh other point, it seems to me that thief being nailed to the cross was never given the opportunity do works after his conversion because he was dying. Jesus most certainly saw into his heart and saw the man really meant what he said and that was good enough. With us, our proof of fiath doesn't come from words alone. In the old days we offered sacrifices, today we help each other as signs for our faith. You can't 'earn' your way into heaven, but conversion can change your attitude on giving so that you give gleefully without expecting anything in return, including a garunteed spot in heaven. It does you no good to help anyone by giving all your stuff away if think you will buy your way into heaven or win God's favor. It has to be because you really want to help someone and faith can bring about that change in heart. An atheist who gives so freely I think would still be accepted into heaven simply because he felt such love for his fellow man that God will see it because God is love in its purest form.The problem with some of this is that you are saying we do not need the sacrifice of Jesus! Again, and I ask this in a nice way :), what would the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice be?

Remember, even David, with all his obedience (works) looked to Jesus to save him. He knew his works weren't the answer.

As for the person being nailed to the cross, it shows that as soon as you accept Jesus, you're saved. Works aren't needed else he couldn't be saved.

So, what is the importance of works.

When you accept Jesus, you are saved from sin. Becuase you want to be forgiven of your sins, you admit sin is wrong. Therefore, you would not want to sin anymore (yes, you will at times, but not 'practice' the sin) and by accepting Jesus, you are repenting, turning away from sin. If you continue to sin, then it's possible (and probable) you never truly accpeted Jesus and have nothing to prove that you did. That's why faith without works is a dead faith. You can offer no proof that you accepted Jesus. By turning away from sin (not swearing, understanding how fortunate you are and giving to the poor, etc...) are the works that confirm your faith. But not save you.

Hope this helps.

[rodhulk]

That is what I was getting at when I was saying that a pious Jew or Muslim would still be accepted by God even if they have not accepted Christ. We are in agreement on this.

The same way that you reassure me that works alone are not going to save you, I also say that just accepting Christ will not be enough. If you believe in God and yet still exploit children for the sex trade, you will not be saved. It has to be a measure of both in tandem together. Faith brings about the desire to do good works. If it doesn't, then it is not true faith at all. Conversion must bring about noticible change or it wasn't a true conversion at all. I really do think you and I think the same way even if I am not so good at expressing it. :)When I speak of a jew or muslim or anybody who may be saved or given a future chance even if they didn't accept Christ, I'm referring to people who never really had an opportunity to understand Jesus and his sacrifice. If they did and refused to accept Christ, they cannot be saved. Again, even David looked to Jesus for his salvation as did some other writers of the OT. They knew it was in Christ.

By accepting Christ (becoming a christian), you are accepting his word, the Bible, and nowhere does it say you can be saved by works, in both Old and New Testaments. However, both of these Testaments confirm that Jesus (the Messiah) can save and is the 'only' savior.

As a christian, this is 'word,' that salvation is only in Christ or else we don't need him and thus, his sacrifice was for nothing (that 'nothing' being very scary for me if a christian says we don't need that sacrifice).

I can give you scripture quotes and please read the Bible on this, let that be your final answer rather than me or anybody else.

[PrinceAlbert]

Again, RodHulk is another perfect example of a blind man calling himself Christian. He knows nothing about salvation--what salvation is--how God saves--and how salvation works.

You can not get yourselves saved, by accepting Christ, being baptized in water, confessing, eating bread and wine. How many times does the Bible have to tell you that?

My f***king God!

[PrinceAlbert]

Its ok man, there are special places for you, asylums.


Hahhahahahhahahhahahahahahhahahhahahahahhahahahahh ahahahhahaha!!

Hell for you kid.

:down

[squeekness]

The problem with some of this is that you are saying we do not need the sacrifice of Jesus! Again, and I ask this in a nice way :), what would the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice be?

Remember, even David, with all his obedience (works) looked to Jesus to save him. He knew his works weren't the answer.

As for the person being nailed to the cross, it shows that as soon as you accept Jesus, you're saved. Works aren't needed else he couldn't be saved.

So, what is the importance of works.

When you accept Jesus, you are saved from sin. Becuase you want to be forgiven of your sins, you admit sin is wrong. Therefore, you would not want to sin anymore (yes, you will at times, but not 'practice' the sin) and by accepting Jesus, you are repenting, turning away from sin. If you continue to sin, then it's possible (and probable) you never truly accpeted Jesus and have nothing to prove that you did. That's why faith without works is a dead faith. You can offer no proof that you accepted Jesus. By turning away from sin (not swearing, understanding how fortunate you are and giving to the poor, etc...) are the works that confirm your faith. But not save you.

Martin Luther once said that faith alone was good enough and it sparked a peasant revolution that killed millions. The villiagers figured that since they had accpeted Christ it didn't matter if they murdered anyone, they would still be saved. This is not the case. They did not fully understand what Luther was trying to say and it's so easy to misunderstand when someone says faith alone is enough. You have to have both fiath and works because they go hand in hand with one another.

Jesus died on the cross as the furthest example of obedience. God the father demanded this sacrifice and Jesus went willingly, gleefully, without the thought of earning his place in heaven. He came to show us how to live and to show that even though we sin, it can be overcome if the heart is willing. That willingness comes from faith, the obedience of God our Father is the works. Jesus' final sacrifice nullified all other sacrifices because as God had said many tmes, he has no need for burnt offerings, but he would greatly enjoy our love and obedience.

God is love and the more we love, the more we will be like God. The journey is hard and long but I hope we can find the way.

All of this senseless killing and fighting makes me wonder if we will ever be good enough. We have to want it and it just doesn't seem like humans want peace enough to have it granted. We are agents of God. He can bring us peace but he won't by simply granting it, He will do it THROUGH us. But we have to want it. Isreal has to want it. Hamas has to want it and Hezbullah has to want it. I don't think they do.

[squeekness]

Again, RodHulk is another perfect example of a blind man calling himself Christian. He knows nothing about salvation--what salvation is--how God saves--and how salvation works.

You can not get yourselves saved, by accepting Christ, being baptized in water, confessing, eating bread and wine. How many times does the Bible have to tell you that?

My f***king God!You got an exact quote on that? I really like to see it. :)

[InsaneMembrane]

It doesnt, but in my experience a lot of those people who do are. I dont know you so I cant call you a hypocrite

I see the wording was just confusing..

[rodhulk]

Again, RodHulk is another perfect example of a blind man calling himself Christian. He knows nothing about salvation--what salvation is--how God saves--and how salvation works.

You can not get yourselves saved, by accepting Christ, being baptized in water, confessing, eating bread and wine. How many times does the Bible have to tell you that?

My f***king God!You can believe whatever you like, you have the choice. :)

[Darthphere]

Hahhahahahhahahhahahahahahhahahhahahahahhahahahahh ahahahhahaha!!

Hell for you kid.

:down


You know, telling someone theyre going to hell is hell worthy for you. Good job, see you there you ****ing psycho.:up:

[Alonsovich]

He knows nothing about salvation--what salvation is--how God saves--and how salvation works.

I don't think anybody does... basically because there are like three billion interpretations of what the Bible says. The only one that knows for sure is the Big Boss up there... so good luck for everyone.

[squeekness]

I don't think anybody does... basically because there are like three billion interpretations of what the Bible says. The only one that knows for sure is the Big Boss up there... so good luck for everyone.LOL. There is some truth in that. So many times the prophets tried to interpret what God was telling them only to discover that while things came true, it wasn't always exactly the way people had thought it would be.

[rodhulk]

Martin Luther once said that faith alone was good enough and it sparked a peasant revolution that killed millions. The villiagers figured that since they had accpeted Christ it didn't matter if they murdered anyone, they would still be saved. This is not the case. They did not fully understand what Luther was trying to say and it's so easy to misunderstand when someone says faith alone is enough. You have to have both fiath and works because they go hand in hand with one another.

Jesus died on the cross as the furthest example of obedience. God the father demanded this sacrifice and Jesus went willingly, gleefully, without the thought of earning his place in heaven. He came to show us how to live and to show that even though we sin, it can be overcome if the heart is willing. That willingness comes from faith, the obedience of God our Father is the works. Jesus' final sacrifice nullified all other sacrifices because as God had said many tmes, he has no need for burnt offerings, but he would greatly enjoy our love and obedience.

God is love and the more we love, the more we will be like God. The journey is hard and long but I hope we can find the way.

All of this senseless killing and fighting makes me wonder if we will ever be good enough. We have to want it and it just doesn't seem like humans want peace enough to have it granted. We are agents of God. He can bring us peace but he won't by simply granting it, He will do it THROUGH us. But we have to want it. Isreal has to want it. Hamas has to want it and Hezbullah has to want it. I don't think they do.That thing with Martin Luthor is insignificant, really. Please understand what I mean here but, outside of the Bible, it doesn't matter on who said what and what happened due to various people's beliefs. All that matters is what the Bible says. If some people misunderstand things (such as your examples of the past), I leave that to them and God.

As for the sacrifice of Jesus, the scripture again and again says that salvation is in Jesus only, he dies for our sins. He didn't die for the best example of obedience (though, he did teach obedience and was the perfect example), but he was born 'only' to die for our sins because without his death, we would never make it to heaven with our works. That's why the OT saints kept looking towards Jesus, or as they had known it, the messiah.

If Jesus was to only be a perfect example of obedience, then why didn't the scriptures say as such, why didn't scripture in the OT make a prophecy of that instead? Read Isaiah 53.

Works are our proof, so to speak, that we want to turn from sin and really accept Jesus as our sacrifice, to do what's good as we want to get away from sin, or else we really don't want Jesus and would rather continue to sin, if you see what I mean.

[War Lord]

http://us.altermedia.info/images/gun1.jpg

What is that baby trying to compensate for? It doesn't have a need for it.

[Matt]

You know, Putin had it right at G8, Some retribution is neccessary...but there is a such thing as going too far...and I think Israel crossed that line a long time ago. They are TWO soldiers...It is really not worth throwing the entire middle east into all out war over. The good the many outweigh the good of the few. I think that is a lesson Israel needs to learn before this gets too far and they cross a line they can't come back from.

[squeekness]

That thing with Martin Luthor is insignificant, really. Please understand what I mean here but, outside of the Bible, it doesn't matter on who said what and what happened due to various people's beliefs. All that matters is what the Bible says. If some people misunderstand things (such as your examples of the past), I leave that to them and God.

As for the sacrifice of Jesus, the scripture again and again says that salvation is in Jesus only, he dies for our sins. He didn't die for the best example of obedience (though, he did teach obedience and was the perfect example), but he was born 'only' to die for our sins because without his death, we would never make it to heaven with our works. That's why the OT saints kept looking towards Jesus, or as they had known it, the messiah.

If Jesus was to only be a perfect example of obedience, then why didn't the scriptures say as such, why didn't scripture in the OT make a prophecy of that instead? Read Isaiah 53.

Works are our proof, so to speak, that we want to turn from sin and really accept Jesus as our sacrifice, to do what's good as we want to get away from sin, or else we really don't want Jesus and would rather continue to sin, if you see what I mean.I don't think we are going to agree here completely. We surely represent the schism that has kept the church separated all these years. What makes sense to me doesn't make sense to you and the other way around. However, we are agruing one small point of doctrine. I would like to think that we are both right in our own ways and that since we each are earnest and honest in our faith and belief that God will see it and understand. We have both converted and if that conversion is true (which I think it is) then I think we have little to fear. Our goal is to provide good examples for others to follow so I will be the first to bow down and no longer argue since it is pointless and accomplishes nothing. We shall agree to disagree. :)

[PrinceAlbert]

Or are we overacting?

I can't wait till all the foreigners are out of Lebannon and Israel!! :)

[Ronny Shade]

SumOfGod alert

[PrinceAlbert]

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee hawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[Wilhelm-Scream]

My God! What the f**k is this?! Aren't you a f**king athiest? You're an athiest posing as a Christian?--or are you actually a Christian posing as a f**king athiest on this SuperHearo Boards? You tell me. Are you trying to f**k around with God or soemthing kid?

Secondly, it says in the Bible, we can not get ourselves saved. There is no free will. God decides who will he save and allow to burn in Hell. The born again Christians were chosen before the foundation of the world. That's another thing churches do not teach you. As I keep f**king saying over and over again--all the churches and congregation are under the wrath of God now. The prophesy is being fufulled--straight from your f**King Bible!

Or should I say our?

Hmmm... *rubs chin*

:)


LMFAO!
You are the Tasmanian Devil!
Hahahahahaha

[Kaleb]

Or are we overacting?

I can't wait till all the foreigners are out of Lebannon and Israel!! :)
boy ppl are ganna think what the hell was princealbert talking about
@''or are we overacting''

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Red Bull gives him Dumbs!:) OMG!:eek:

[jaguarr]

LMFAO!
You are the Tasmanian Devil!
Hahahahahaha

He has a nice smile, though:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Tasmanian_devil.jpg

jag

[raybia]

Hi Squeek,

We chatted about this a bit before.

I still must say that we are not saved by our works but by the blood of Christ. Anybody who thinks against this has not accepted christ's work on the cross. If we could do it on our own, then why did Christ have to die?

Works are only really a type of confirmation that we have accepted Christ, it isn't saving anybody.

You see, if you haven't accepted Christ, then God, who is perfect, sees sin, so it doesn't matter about your works, they are as filthy rags because your hands are dirty (sin) which would dirty the rags and you can't enter heaven (a perfect 'clean' place) if Jesus's blood hasn't washed your hands (sins) = clean rags. God would still see sin and can't let you in (salvation). I hope this makes sense.

I think it's in the book of Hebrews that does talk about somebody who doesn't accept Christ and yet can stil be saved. This is, if I recall correctly, people who have not learned the truth on Christ which would be babies, kids, certain groups of people (some Indians, for example)etc.....


This is only true if a person accepts it. If I did then I would be Christian (which demonination I have no idea.)

Since I don't, I'm not bounded by your concepts as they carry no weight towards my life but it does give me some insight on your personal beliefs as a Christian.

[kainedamo]

300 plus dead, mostly civillians.

Is this really the correct way to react when two Israeli soldiers are kidnapped?

Most of the time when kidnapped soldiers or civillains are released, it's because of hard work in negotiations, not starting a ****ing war.

What the hell is going on??

[maxwell's demon]

This is only true it you accept it. If I did then I would be Christian (which demonination I have no idea.)

Since I don't, I'm not bounded by your concepts as they carry no weight towards my life but it does give me some insight on your personal beliefs as a Christian.


just know he doesn't speak for every christian:up:
(and i already know ya do;))

[TheSumOfGod]

You seem to forget one very important "fact": Israeli lives are worth millions of non-Israeli lives. :rolleyes:

[Darthphere]

You seem to forget one very important "fact": Israeli lives are worth millions of non-Israeli lives. :rolleyes:


Thats true.:up:

[cass]

300 plus dead, mostly civillians.

Is this really the correct way to react when two Israeli soldiers are kidnapped?

Most of the time when kidnapped soldiers or civillains are released, it's because of hard work in negotiations, not starting a ****ing war.

What the hell is going on??

Negotiations for Israel have always either led to more attacks/kidnappings (see current situation, withdrawal from Southern Lebanon) or been completely denied (see Gaza withdrawal). When someone commits an act of war, be prepared for war. Or do the right thing and don't commit the act.

[raybia]

just know he doesn't speak for every christian:up:
(and i already know ya do;))


:up:

His comments are a little on the fanatical side.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I'd really like to see the world divided right down the middle.
On one side, all of the zealots, and mad patriots, and people who like to torture and maim others could live, and knock themselves out.
On the other side, we who want to read, have sex, listen to music, keep to ourselves and a group of friends and family, look at art, talk, hug, hang out, laugh, etc. could live.

Worst. Planet. Ever.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I still freaking love how that Arabic looks like it says "Jew".

[maxwell's demon]

:up:

His comments are a little on the fanatical side.


adn/or hyper-literal. yes. it sometimes makes my jaw drop when i see how many peopel seem to miss the obvious messages in any and all ancient religious texts. or any texts, for that matter.

such is the problem with language at times, i suppose. the vernaculars of the olden days fade away so that, in the later ages, people study only the bones of the words left behind, unaware that they used to be alive and moving.

:(sad.

[kainedamo]

Negotiations for Israel have always either led to more attacks/kidnappings (see current situation, withdrawal from Southern Lebanon) or been completely denied (see Gaza withdrawal). When someone commits an act of war, be prepared for war. Or do the right thing and don't commit the act.

But it was a terrorist organization that did it, hezbollah. Why punish an entire nation for it? It doesn't make sense.

How many British soldiers have the IRA killed?? Lots A hell of a lot. Did Britain ever say (I'm talking after 1920 here) let's invade Ireland, because the Irish are clearly supporting these terrorists, and kill alot of innocent people??

No. Of course not. Because that would be rediculous and stupid. And it would just make things worse!! That's the most important thing.

[SapphirePrima]

300 plus dead, mostly civillians.

Is this really the correct way to react when two Israeli soldiers are kidnapped?

Most of the time when kidnapped soldiers or civillains are released, it's because of hard work in negotiations, not starting a ****ing war.

What the hell is going on??


Were talking about the middle east.

[TheSumOfGod]

I'd really like to see the world divided right down the middle.
On one side, all of the zealots, and mad patriots, and people who like to torture and maim others could live, and knock themselves out.
On the other side, we who want to read, have sex, listen to music, keep to ourselves and a group of friends and family, look at art, talk, hug, hang out, laugh, etc. could live.

Worst. Planet. Ever.

But that wouldn't be 50/50. There's simply NO WAY that there's 3-3.5 BILLION "zealots, mad patriots and people who torture and maim others" out there. At least, I hope not. :eek: :(

[Gamma Ray]

Obviously it's not just about the two soldiers anymore.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

But that wouldn't be 50/50. There's simply NO WAY that there's 3-3.5 BILLION "zealots, mad patriots and people who torture and maim others" out there. At least, I hope not. :eek: :(It's a fantasy. I also wish I had 9 foot batwings and 6 eyes.

On a positive note, kainedamo has learned how to spell "Israel".:up:

[TheSumOfGod]

But it was a terrorist organization that did it, hezbollah. Why punish an entire nation for it? It doesn't make sense.

How many British soldiers have the IRA killed?? Lots A hell of a lot. Did Britain ever say (I'm talking after 1920 here) let's invade Ireland, because the Irish are clearly supporting these terrorists, and kill alot of innocent people??

No. Of course not. Because that would be rediculous and stupid. And it would just make things worse!! That's the most important thing.

But this is Israel that we're talking about here, a state run by extreme-right-wing uber-nationalists and zionist fundamentalists. The people in charge over there have been quoted as saying that "Palestinians are beasts that walk on two legs". They don't give a f*** about non-Israeli lives, non-Israelis are sub-human things to be disposed of as far as they care.

[TheSumOfGod]

And then they say that the people in power in Iran are fanatics. You don't see Iran attacking other countries without provocation and killing hundreds of innocent civilians, do you? :rolleyes:

[cass]

And then they say that the people in power in Iran are fanatics. You don't see Iran attacking other countries without provocation and killing hundreds of innocent civilians, do you? :rolleyes:

You see them giving missiles to Hezbollah. :eek:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19missile.html?ei=5065&en=3d0d943e18a69f22&ex=1153886400&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

[jaguarr]

And then they say that the people in power in Iran are fanatics. You don't see Iran attacking other countries without provocation and killing hundreds of innocent civilians, do you? :rolleyes:

They don't need to. They've outsourced it to Hezzbolah. :)

jag

[tomahawk53]

edit


didn't realize this thread was on page 32!!!

Freakin WOW!!!!

[maxwell's demon]

edit


didn't realize this thread was on page 32!!!

Freakin WOW!!!!


if you started off a few minutes ago- it probably wasn't. two threads just got merged.

how goes it, tomahawk?

[War Lord]

You know, Putin had it right at G8, Some retribution is neccessary...but there is a such thing as going too far...and I think Israel crossed that line a long time ago. They are TWO soldiers...It is really not worth throwing the entire middle east into all out war over. The good the many outweigh the good of the few. I think that is a lesson Israel needs to learn before this gets too far and they cross a line they can't come back from.

And Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, other terrorist groups, Syria, and Iran have no need to learn to not cross any line, right?

[tomahawk53]

if you started off a few minutes ago- it probably wasn't. two threads just got merged.

how goes it, tomahawk?

HEY MAX!!!!!! :up: :up:

Yeah I did. I replied to something on page one then looked at the page that my post was on. Figured anything I had to say about that post had to be covered by page 32. :p

it's going good Max...Long time no see.

Still living la vida loca?

[Wilhelm-Scream]

whoah, check Rush out.

'Limbaugh goes over the top once again and is calling this conflict a gift to the neocons and to the world. Just try to imagine the kind of evil involved in this type of thinking. And what is Limbaugh's justification for calling the spreading devastation "a gift to the world"? For Limbaugh and others who share this delusional, genocidal view of the world, this is the ultimate "clash of civilizations."

As I write this, he is now saying that this war was "never intended to stop with Iraq." This is "finally" our chance to go after Iran. As he puts it, there will be no peace until one side finally defeats the other completely. I will leave to you the determination of precisely what such a defeat might entail, and how many people will have to die. And then, once the other side is finally defeated, "the winner must set the terms of surrender to the loser."

[jaguarr]

No one listens to Rush, anymore. He's a prescription pill junkie with a Viagra hard-on.

jag

[Wilhelm-Scream]

yeah, I know.
I just read that while I was on another site while the Hype wasn't working and thought, "In the old days this would probably have it's own thread on the Hype. No one gives a f*** what he has to say anymore."

[Daisy]

yeah, I know.
I just read that while I was on another site while the Hype wasn't working and thought, "In the old days this would probably have it's own thread on the Hype. No one gives a f*** what he has to say anymore."

And people still don't believe in karmic justice? :confused: :)

[Wilhelm-Scream]

:).

[jaguarr]

And people still don't believe in karmic justice? :confused: :)

I won't be satisfied until Rush has a severe eating disorder destroy his life. The whole pills thing just isn't enough for me.

jag

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I like picturing him frantically calling a mexican maid, sweating in the night, totally at her mercy.

[Daisy]

I won't be satisfied until Rush has a severe eating disorder destroy his life. The whole pills thing just isn't enough for me.

jag

With a statement like that, I'd be concerned more about my own karma than that of others, sir. :(

[maxwell's demon]

HEY MAX!!!!!! :up: :up:

Yeah I did. I replied to something on page one then looked at the page that my post was on. Figured anything I had to say about that post had to be covered by page 32. :p

it's going good Max...Long time no see.

Still living la vida loca?

mui mui loca (sp?)

hopefully i'll be on a bit more regularly in a few months.

i feel dwarfed by everyones post counts :(

[TrailerCues]

A rift is emerging between the European Union and the United States over whether Israel should cease its offensive against Hezbollah guerrillas. .The Europeans fear mounting civilian casualties will play into the hands of militants and weaken Lebanon's democratically elected government. The Bush administration, while noting these concerns, is giving Israel a tacit green light to take the time it needs to neutralize the *****e militant group. The mixed message could help Israel in its mission to destroy Hezbollah's stronghold in southern Lebanon and stop the guerrillas' deadly rocket fire on Israel. But Islamic hard-liners and terrorist groups could be long-term winners, using the vivid television imagery of the death and destruction in Lebanon to win popularity and promote their jihads. The United States, the country that holds the most sway with Israel, has said the Jewish state has the right to defend itself and that a "meaningful" cease-fire is needed — presumably one which includes the disarming of Hezbollah. White House spokesman Tony Snow said the administration opposed a return to the situation before the outbreak of violence. "A cease-fire that would leave intact a terrorist infrastructure is unacceptable," he said. By contrast, the EU has called for a cease-fire now and said Israel's "disproportionate" use of force is not only threatening Lebanon's democratic government but providing the fuel that extremist groups such as Hezbollah need to win public support. After meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni on Wednesday, Javier Solana, the EU's foreign policy chief, condemned the July 12 Hezbollah raid that led to Israel's offensive and urged the guerrillas to immediately release the two soldiers they captured. But he also called for a cease-fire and said diplomatic efforts to end the crisis should continue. Asked if Israel's attacks in Lebanon were disproportionate, Solana said that if people think the offensive is causing "more suffering on the people than is necessary in order to obtain an objective," it could make it harder win their "hearts and minds" in the "battle against terrorists." However, Livni said Israel's offensive is not just a reaction to Hezbollah's raid, but a response to the broad threat of Hezbollah to Israel's security. From that perspective, she said, Israel's air strikes on Lebanon are proportionate. Israel is betting that its campaign will deliver a decisive blow not only to Hezbollah, but to radical Islamic forces throughout the region. So far, though, the widespread Israeli air strikes appear to have only increased the credibility and popularity of Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah in the Middle East. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has discussed the crisis by telephone with Olmert and Solana. But Rice, who had been expected to visit the region this weekend, has refrained from setting a date — leading some to speculate that the U.S. wanted to give Israel more time to pursue its offensive. British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Bush's top overseas ally, joined the American president on Wednesday in insisting that Hezbollah free the soldiers and stop firing rockets at Israel before asking Israel to stop its offensive. But other European nations backed Solana. French President Jacques Chirac called the Mideast fighting a "dramatic situation that deeply worries us." He urged Hezbollah to release the Israeli soldiers and to stop hitting Israel with missiles. But he also asked the Israelis to stop deadly bombings in Lebanon. In Moscow, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov expressed concern that "the war in the Middle East is escalating" and tacitly criticized Israel's use of force, saying, "It is particularly painful to witness the destruction of the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060719/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_diplomacy

[jaguarr]

With a statement like that, I'd be concerned more about my own karma than that of others, sir. :(

Hey, I give to Red Cross and donate blood. :confused:

jag

[Daisy]

Paragraph breaks? :confused: Please? :(

[Cho Chang]

From the Globe and Mail:

230 civilians
20 Lebanese soldiers
3 Hezbollah militants

dead.

[kane9321]

freakin israel...all this for two soliders eh?

[Matt]

And Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, other terrorist groups, Syria, and Iran have no need to learn to not cross any line, right?

No one said that Jonty...but as we can all see, Israel's method clearly isn't working.

[rodhulk]

I don't think we are going to agree here completely. We surely represent the schism that has kept the church separated all these years. What makes sense to me doesn't make sense to you and the other way around. However, we are agruing one small point of doctrine. I would like to think that we are both right in our own ways and that since we each are earnest and honest in our faith and belief that God will see it and understand. We have both converted and if that conversion is true (which I think it is) then I think we have little to fear. Our goal is to provide good examples for others to follow so I will be the first to bow down and no longer argue since it is pointless and accomplishes nothing. We shall agree to disagree. :)That's cool.

The only point I was trying to make is allow the Bible to be the final authority. If you believe something but can't find it in the Bible, then maybe you (or I) believe in untruth.

I guess a final example of works vs non-works could go like this.

If you win a million dollars at a lottery and have to go pick it up somewhere, well, you have to travel to pick it up (work), but the money is still yours regardless of whether you travel today or next week (grace) and remember, even when you're travelling to pick it up, you're not earning it by travelling, it's already yours.

Anyways, let's get back to the subject at hand, Israel and Lebanon, which isn't too good at the moment.

[rodhulk]

:up:

His comments are a little on the fanatical side.Opinions vary! :up:

[rodhulk]

This is only true if a person accepts it. If I did then I would be Christian (which demonination I have no idea.)

Since I don't, I'm not bounded by your concepts as they carry no weight towards my life but it does give me some insight on your personal beliefs as a Christian.While I enjoy other people reading what I say, it's up to you to believe what you want. We do have those choices.

[rodhulk]

just know he doesn't speak for every christian:up:
(and i already know ya do;))Correct.

I speak according to my faith. That's it.

[squeekness]

No one said that Jonty...but as we can all see, Israel's method clearly isn't working.That's the problem when you are chasing a mobile target. It was like us in Viet Nam. The enemy wasn't a city, it was a small band of VC terrorists tramping through the jungle. You can't help but hit civilians because these guys weave in and out among them, something that is no doubt deliberate. Ireland was never able to eradicate the IRA, they were forced to integrate them, and that is what may have to happen here. Hezbollah and Hamas are not going to go away quietly. They will keep making noise until they are finally heard.

[Gamma Ray]

freakin israel...all this for two soliders eh?

No.

[Man-Thing]

I see there is a lot of condemnation if Israel by the left in this country now, and it is really stupid and cowardly. Israel has been the model of restraint for the whole western world for years, but yet they have more UN sainctions than any other country.:rolleyes: The UN, is the most useless organization on the fact that they had Lybia on the human rights convention.

The simple fact is that Israel has a right to exist, no matter what the UN or liberal socialists say. Lebanon (and I mean the people of Lebanon) had years, to rid ITSELF of Hezzbolah, but didn't. They promoted them to positions of power in their government. They brought this upon themselves through their hatred of the Hebrew people and now must face the consequences. It is sad that innocent people have to die in any war, but Israel needs.... better yet HAS to protect herself.

The whole arguement by the left is basically saying you don't have a right to protect yourself, but if a government can't protect it's citizens, then they have failed at the most essential act of being a nation. You would think that after the six day war and such that these people would learn not to mess with Israel, but alas they have stuck their hand into the viper's den.

I sincerely feel for any Lebanese person who actually tried to rid their country of these thugs, but the simple truth is that they let them rise to power. They are no more innocent in my mind than the German's of WWII letting Hitler into power. If a country wants a revolution, they should do they way our founding father's done, it's a simple as that.

[Superman4ever]

I see there is a lot of condemnation if Israel by the left in this country now, and it is really stupid and cowardly. Israel has been the model of restraint for the whole western world for years, but yet they have more UN sainctions than any other country.:rolleyes: The UN, is the most useless organization on the fact that they had Lybia on the human rights convention.


Do you mean resolutions? There's a reason for that because many of its military and legislative tactics are deplorable, and inhumane. BTW, ALL (243 resolutions, I believe) of which were vetoed by the U.S. It's hilarious to see some Americans so steadfast and resolute for their unwavering support for a nation that actually mocks us. You should hear how Israelis gawk at American stupidity and military brutality.

I whole-heartedly am against terrorism and, actually support Israel on this offensive, but they are NOT as self-restraining and innocent as you are lead to believe. I HATE with a passion Hezbollah and Hamas and very much support their destruction, however when 299 civilians (latest CNN figues) and only THREE--THREE--Hezbollah militants are killed, there's something wrong with the equation.

[Gamma Ray]

From the Globe and Mail:

230 civilians
20 Lebanese soldiers
3 Hezbollah militants

dead.



Right... I doubt that's accurate. Most of the deaths are probably Hezbollah.

[Superman4ever]

Right... I doubt that's accurate. Most of the deaths are probably Hezbollah.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/19/mideast/index.html

The conflict so far has caused "immeasurable loss" in Lebanon, Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said Wednesday. He again called for a cease-fire and denounced Israel as a "savage war machine" responsible for more than 300 deaths in Lebanon.

However,

The Lebanese Internal Security Forces reported, however, that 216 people had been killed and 524 injured as of 8 p.m.

The civilian numbers are rising quickly and it won't be suprising to see it surpass 300 very soon, however, I can't find anything that indicates that more than 3 Hizbollah militants have been killed so far. For now that's the only number the news (CNN, Jerusalem post, Haaretz) have been reporting. Even the recent bombing on a Hizbollah HQ is being refuted by Hizbollah and Israeli news. (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/740251.html)

There's also the fact that more than 500,000 people have been displaced or are now homeless (see, the haaretz link above).

[War Lord]

No one said that Jonty...but as we can all see, Israel's method clearly isn't working.

I don't know.

I think destroying missiles is an excellent way to ensure that they can't be fired and if the terrorists are more concerned about their survival, it's less likely for them to take time to plan on how to destroy Israel.

But that could just be me.

[psychocheeseman]

Firstly:
I can't understand why attack two countries just because they kidnaped three soldiers. It's crazy.


It's an act of war.

So if say the US kidnapped some soldiers from say...anywhere in south america...or better yet..the middle east...that country would have the right to dessimate the civilian population of the US? of Course not, its a totally disproportionate to the acts committed.

Secondly;

Israel withdraws from South Lebanon, South Lebanon is used to fire rockets ino Israel

Israel withdraws from Gaza, Gaza is used to fire rockets into Israel

...pattern?

Israel bulldozes thousands of palestinian houses down to slowly increase isrealy territory since the second world war...some people get pissed off...pattern?
Israel goes a little overboard during the 6 day war, takes territory of surrounding nations including lebanon...resentment lives on in some people.

Although i applaude the generous withdrawls israel has made in the last few years it was but a small step in the reconciliation process.

I Find it hard to believe that the kidnapping of two soldiers was reason ernough for bombing another country, so far resulting in the deaths of 244 in lebanon and 24 in israel.
Thats 34 of the lebanese army (with whom israel claims to have no problem) 210 lebanese civilians, 12 israeli soldiers, 12 isreali civilians, 8 canadians and 1 confirmed member of Hizbullah.

thats 276 people to get 1 person that they were after.
That's messed up.

Hizbullah should be stopped from bombing isreal, but at the cost of how many innocent lives?

I'm just glad Israel hasn't used any of its nukes yet.

[Mentok]

I have noticed SumofGod had been abscent while all this has been going down.... Hmmmmmm. :sneaky:

[Sunstar]

I Find it hard to believe that the kidnapping of two soldiers was reason ernough for bombing another country, so far resulting in the deaths of 244 in lebanon and 24 in israel.
Thats 34 of the lebanese army (with whom israel claims to have no problem) 210 lebanese civilians, 12 israeli soldiers, 12 isreali civilians, 8 canadians and 1 confirmed member of Hizbullah.

This is a disgusting situation and Israel are just as bad as the terrorists they are trying to eliminate! I mean a Syrian Official on Sky News said that Israel's attacking Lebanon for the lives of 2 soldiers and they hope to achieve this by attacking schools,hospitals and other civilian buildings? Another thing is that they are hypocrites b/c they have more than 300 Arab women and children locked up in Israeli prisons(some of which were born in prison) and their attack is being justified by George W. Bush! We all know that if the tables were turned American troops would've been deployed to Israel in hours yet the Arab nations would be seen as tyrants if they attacked Israel to free their own people!

Another thing is that Bush is using this crisis to attack Syria(who may/may not have had some hand in causing this) and as a possible excuse to go to war with them(we all know that after Iraq, Syria or Iran would follow and ironically they are the main countries condemning these attacks on Lebanon)!

[Darkdd]

Right... I doubt that's accurate. Most of the deaths are probably Hezbollah.
Nope,watch any news station.

[PrinceAlbert]

Isn't the SonOfGod one of those reptilian creatures? I wonder what he'll come up with next--there is no war, but only an illusion created on a green backdrop, hahahhahahahhahahahahaahahahaha

[Gamma Ray]

Nope,watch any news station.


I did. An Israeli news station. Online...

[Gamma Ray]

So if say the US kidnapped some soldiers from say...anywhere in south america...or better yet..the middle east...that country would have the right to dessimate the civilian population of the US? of Course not, its a totally disproportionate to the acts committed.


Decimate? What is wrong with you? You're being fed so much misinformation.

How does the bombing of terrorist targets make all of you all cry foul? If you want to talk about cold blooded killings, talk about Kisangani or something.

[squeekness]

What happened in Kisangani?

[Darkdd]

I did. An Israeli news station. Online...
Watch MSNBC or CNN.

[Honey Vibe]

Aren't there altercations every week between these people? Why does this one inspire the Israeli government to act?

And the soldiers were taken to Iran? Well, how very convenient.

I smell a puppeteer pulling the strings. The USA plans to invade Iran, without letting such a heinous action look like a part of its current campaign in the Middle East.

[Danger Mouse]

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74138

Israel talks tough, but doubts are starting to appear

Israel's war on Lebanon "will take as long as it will take," the Jewish state's envoy to the United Nations said Thursday. Speaking to the reporters at UN headquarters in New York, Dan Gillerman said the Israelis "will take as much time," as they need to destroy Hizbullah's military capability.

Israeli Premier Ehud Olmert agreed to open a "humanitarian corridor" between Lebanon and Cyprus, Israeli public radio said Thursday. The corridor, to be enforced by the Israeli Navy, is aimed at allowing the evacuation of refugees and foreigners, the radio said.

Olmert, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and Defense Minister Amir Peretz agreed "in principle" to open a corridor that would allow aid groups to ferry supplies to civilians in South Lebanon, an Israeli official said.

Specialized UN bodies and other agencies have been trying to bring in aid - with no success as Israeli warplanes continue to threaten the safety of convoys.

With a state of emergency prevailing in northern Israel and no news of the two Israeli soldiers snatched by Hizbullah on July 12 - the incident that sparked the war - some Israelis are beginning to doubt the effectiveness of an offensive that has failed to stop Hizbullah's fire or push its fighters back from the border. Ground troops are battling guerrillas as warplanes and navy gunboats pound Hizbullah positions and Lebanese infrastructure - and the UN has warned of impending "catastrophe" from the relentless assault.

In Lebanon, more than 325 civilians have been killed, 1,000 civilians wounded and over 500,000 displaced. Israel's dead counted 29, about half of them soldiers, until Thursday, when nine Israeli soldiers were reported killed in a Hizbullah ambush while advancing into Lebanon.

"It is undeniable that Israel is in a bind. The army has again been over-confident and underestimated its abilities to break Hizbullah," said Israeli military analyst Reuven Pedatzur.

The risk now is for Israel to invade South Lebanon. That would make its troops vulnerable to Hizbullah fighters.

For the moment at least, the specter of sliding back into the quagmire of Lebanon has put the brakes on a ground offensive. Yet Olmert has approved intensified ground operations, described by the Israeli Army as "pinpoint."

General Alon Friedman said the military was "operating to destroy Hizbullah infrastructure and underground bunkers in particular," and that enough troops were on the border to launch a large-scale operation.

"Hizbullah seems to be holding strong and its morale seems intact," said Shaul Mishal, a Tel Aviv University specialist in Islamic groups. "It's an illusion to think that with force alone we can destroy the weapons of a movement like Hizbullah, which has widespread support from *****es in Lebanon."

Israel's Haaretz daily wrote Thursday: "Despite the media euphoria and the patriotic spin, the aerial war ... is not heading for victory. In the best case, it is heading for a limited military achievement ... The air force's hammer blows are hitting Lebanon harder than they are hitting Hizbullah ... Even in the best-case scenario, Hizbullah will rise from the rubble ... One way or the other, the illusion of a magic solution is about to burst." - Agencies

[Gamma Ray]

LOL! The Daily Star: Lebanon. The most trusted name in news!

[InsaneMembrane]

Aren't there altercations every week between these people? Why does this one inspire the Israeli government to act?

And the soldiers were taken to Iran? Well, how very convenient.

I smell a puppeteer pulling the strings. The USA plans to invade Iran, without letting such a heinous action look like a part of its current campaign in the Middle East.

:rolleyes:

Yes Hezbollah crosses over into Israel and take soldiers every week...The taking of a country's citizens is usaully considered a pretty big deal....especially when a terrorist organisation does it...

[Danger Mouse]

LOL! The Daily Star: Lebanon. The most trusted name in news!
Oh, I'm sorry. Did you miss the last paragraph of the article?

"Israel's Haaretz daily wrote Thursday: "Despite the media euphoria and the patriotic spin, the aerial war ... is not heading for victory. In the best case, it is heading for a limited military achievement ... The air force's hammer blows are hitting Lebanon harder than they are hitting Hizbullah ... Even in the best-case scenario, Hizbullah will rise from the rubble ... One way or the other, the illusion of a magic solution is about to burst.""

[Danger Mouse]

LOL! The Daily Star: Lebanon. The most trusted name in news!
How about this article from a source you might perhaps find more credible?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/740427.html

An aerial war

For 78 days, the U.S. air force bombed the Serbs, led by Slobodan Milosevic, until it achieved a resolution in Yugoslavia in 1999. The Israel Air Force will not have 78 days for its air offensive in Lebanon. There are more restrictions on the IAF's activity in Beirut than there were on the U.S. air force in Belgrade, and Hezbollah is a lot more sophisticated than Milosevic's army was.

The significance of this is clear: There will be no resolution from the air, even if the pilots ultimately manage to locate Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah and kill him. Despite the media euphoria and the patriotic spin, the aerial war led by Chief of Staff Dan Halutz is not heading for victory. In the best case, it is heading for a limited military achievement.

Following the humiliation of the ground forces by abductions in the north and south, the air force strikes are straightening the national spine and arousing combative instincts. But the hard truth is that the air force's hammer blows are hitting Lebanon harder than they are hitting Hezbollah. At least two-thirds of Nasrallah's war machine remains intact. The achievements in curbing the Katyusha fire are insufficient. There is no chance of dismantling the guerrilla army in a matter of days.

According to the pessimistic scenario, the IAF - despite all its efforts - will not manage to silence the rocket fire, and its operation will end with Nasrallah coming out of his bunker capable of threatening Israel once more. In the optimistic scenario, Nasrallah is assassinated, his forces are pushed away from the border and his rockets fall silent.

But even in the best-case scenario, Hezbollah will rise from the rubble within two months. Within a year or two, south Lebanon will once again be a vibrant Iranian state within a state. The rocket campaign will not be launched, but it will continue to pose a threat. The lesson that the Middle East will learn is that a small, sophisticated and disciplined army of believers can taunt Israel and survive.

Israel cannot agree to teach such a lesson. The reason is simple: We are in a new era - an era of high-trajectory weapons. As the rocket attacks on Haifa, Ashkelon and the Sycamore Ranch have shown, Israel has no direct response to this weaponry. The only response is decisive deterrence.

Hezbollah, which attacked Haifa and is flourishing in south Lebanon, completely negates decisive deterrence. It is a continuing testimony to Israeli weakness. It portends a new war, a much tougher one, which will happen suddenly within a short time.

The aerial offensive notched quite a few accomplishments, and there are more to come. But if it does not lead to a decisive point, it is liable to cause the security of Israel more harm than good. The destruction of real estate in Beirut, the decimation of a few Zelzal rocket launchers, and the killing of a few top Hezbollah officials are not the strategic equivalent of breaking the taboo involved in attacking Tiberias, Afula and Haifa.

Israeli leaders who have not considered this will discover in the coming days the disadvantages and limitations of the aerial offensive. Then they will be faced with a tough dilemma: Should they finish off the aerial operation with a diplomatic process, which is liable to rehabilitate Hezbollah, or should they finish it off with a ground operation that could involve heavy losses and entanglement in Lebanon?

One way or the other, the illusion of a magic solution is about to burst. The Israel Air Force is trying - but not succeeding - to do all the work on our behalf.

[Gamma Ray]

It's an editorial.



:p

[Danger Mouse]

It's an editorial.



:p
So, nothing's legit unless it's news or editorial or a bloody one-liner commentary about Israel winning and Hizbollah losing. I see. :rolleyes:

[Gamma Ray]

I was kidding. He makes some good points. Nobody "wins" or "loses" no matter what. That's been known from the start.

[Danger Mouse]

Sorry. :(

[jaguarr]

Sorry. :(

You went and caught feelings, didn't you, DM? Teh sad. :( Oh, god...it's contagious! Get away from me! :eek:

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

Right... I doubt that's accurate. Most of the deaths are probably Hezbollah.

in no single account from any news source has there been mention of most of the deaths "probably"being Hezbolah.

I like how "you""and your opinions on the matter are more trustwirthy than actual news. :up:

[Slipknot]

LOL! The Daily Star: Lebanon. The most trusted name in news!
You're a jackass. Most Lebanese journalists/media/etc. are actually very unbiased.

[Speedball]

You're a jackass. Most Lebanese journalists/media/etc. are actually very unbiased.
I'm taking a Geography course in school this summer.
We talked about Lebanon today actually.
The teacher told us that the population actually is very diverse religion-wise. Most Journalist aren't even Muslim probably, and most are Jewish or Christian.

[War Lord]

I'm taking a Geography course in school this summer.
We talked about Lebanon today actually.
The teacher told us that the population actually is very diverse religion-wise. Most Journalist aren't even Muslim probably, and most are Jewish or Christian.

While many Lebanese are Christian, most have fled Lebanon because of persecution.

[War Lord]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/25/D8J37I5O1.html

Hezbollah Says Israeli Response a Surprise
Jul 25 4:02 PM US/Eastern

A senior Hezbollah official said Tuesday the guerrilla group did not expect Israel to react so strongly to its capture of two Israeli soldiers.

Mahmoud Komati, deputy chief of Hezbollah's political arm, also told The Associated Press in an interview that his group will not lay down arms.

"The truth is _ let me say this clearly _ we didn't even expect (this) response.... that (Israel) would exploit this operation for this big war against us," said Komati.

He said Hezbollah had expected "the usual, limited response" from Israel to the July 12 cross-border raid, in which three Israelis were killed.

In the past, he said, Israeli responses to Hezbollah actions included sending commandos into Lebanon to seize Hezbollah officials or briefly targeting specific Hezbollah strongholds.

He said the *****e group had anticipated there would be negotiations on exchanging the Israeli soldiers for three Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails, with Germany acting as a mediator as it did before.

[kainedamo]

You do realize that more people are joining Hezbollah than ever before, right??

Look at Bloody Sunday here in Ireland. The British kill around 30 innocent people for no reason. What happens?? More people join the IRA than ever before.

That's what happens when the government kills innocent people. The innocent people get pissed off. If I had super powers, I'd destroy a few Israeli tanks, and tell Israel to back the hell off.

[War Lord]

You do realize that more people are joining Hezbollah than ever before, right??

Look at Bloody Sunday here in Ireland. The British kill around 30 innocent people for no reason. What happens?? More people join the IRA than ever before.

That's what happens when the government kills innocent people. The innocent people get pissed off. If I had super powers, I'd destroy a few Israeli tanks, and tell Israel to back the hell off.

And of course, you'd do nothing against Hezbollah who started this mess or Lebanon who allowed Hezbollah into its territory.

[PLAS]

where's The Authority when you need them?

[kainedamo]

I think you'll find that Israel bombed a beach full of innocent people before Hezbollah kidnapped two Israel soldiers.

And by your logic about Lebanon, the British would be justified in bombing areas across Belfast because of the crimes of the IRA. Lame logic.

Too many innocent people have died. I don't care which side stops first, but something has to give. The free license that the US have given to Israel isn't helping things.

[War Lord]

I think you'll find that Israel bombed a beach full of innocent people before Hezbollah kidnapped two Israel soldiers.

And by your logic about Lebanon, the British would be justified in bombing areas across Belfast because of the crimes of the IRA. Lame logic.

Too many innocent people have died. I don't care which side stops first, but something has to give. The free license that the US have given to Israel isn't helping things.

I think you'll find that wasn't part of Hezbollah's claim as to why they did the kidnappings. They wanted convicted prisoner's released, that's it.

If you want it to really stop, as opposed to just put off for another time, Hezbollah must be destroyed.

[kainedamo]

I don't like Hezbollah either, War Lord.

But don't you think, in the eyes of Palestinians and the people of Lebanon (Lebanese??), the actions of Israel is making Hezbollah look like the good guys.

[Topdawg]

So has the war stopped?

[InsaneMembrane]

So has the war stopped?

not even close...

[Prognosticator]

It doesn't really matter b/c most middleastern countries already hate Israel. That's one of the reasons they continue to despise/hate the U.S.; our strong support of Israel over the years, which I'm ALL FOR!

[War Lord]

I don't like Hezbollah either, War Lord.

But don't you think, in the eyes of Palestinians and the people of Lebanon (Lebanese??), the actions of Israel is making Hezbollah look like the good guys.

People who view Hezbollah in a positive light are going to view them this way no matter what.

If Israel did a limited response to the kidnappings, it would look as though Hezbollah held Israel at bay and the people would cheer.

If Hezbollah killed Israelis and Israel did nothing, the people would cheer because it looked like Israel was too weak to take on Hezbollah.

If Israel did an overwhelming response and absolutely put the boots to Hezbollah, Israel looks like the bad guy because they are attacking for "no reason" and the Lebanese will cling to Hezbollah for protection.

Israel cannot concern itself with getting approval from the rest of the Mid-East, because that approval isn't coming no matter what, so Israel is left with taking care of business without being concerned with how the rest of the Mid-East thinks.

If you want things to change for the good, than you have to eliminate the bad, like Syria and Hezbollah.

[Topdawg]

So who's winning the war?lol

[War Lord]

So who's winning the war?lol

So far, Israel is taking it hands down.

[Topdawg]

the one thing i dont like, is Israel killing civilians.

but so is hezbollah. I hate them Both! LoL

[kainedamo]

People who view Hezbollah in a positive light are going to view them this way no matter what.

I completely disagree. They are thinking people just like you and me. Your best friend dies because of a bombing, you're pissed off with whoever did it. Which means that people that wouldn't otherwise support Hezbollah, would support them if friends or family were dying because of Israel. The more innocent people that die because of Israel, the more supporters Hezbollah get.

If Israel did a limited response to the kidnappings, it would look as though Hezbollah held Israel at bay and the people would cheer.

If Hezbollah killed Israelis and Israel did nothing, the people would cheer because it looked like Israel was too weak to take on Hezbollah.

If Israel did an overwhelming response and absolutely put the boots to Hezbollah, Israel looks like the bad guy because they are attacking for "no reason" and the Lebanese will cling to Hezbollah for protection.

Israel cannot concern itself with getting approval from the rest of the Mid-East, because that approval isn't coming no matter what, so Israel is left with taking care of business without being concerned with how the rest of the Mid-East thinks.

If you want things to change for the good, than you have to eliminate the bad, like Syria and Hezbollah.

I think Israel have went about this completely wrong. I want Hezbollah to be destroyed, I really do. But this isn't the way to do it!! In the words of a guy from Lebonon I watched on the news, who's child had died "Is Hezbollah here??" as he pointed to a large hole in the ground.

It seems to me, and many people, that the strikes from Israel aren't even surgical. They are just striking out in anger, saying they want to get Hezbollah, but it seems like they don't care who gets hurt.

[Speedball]

where's The Authority when you need them?
Good question.

[cass]

I think Israel have went about this completely wrong. I want Hezbollah to be destroyed, I really do. But this isn't the way to do it!!

If you want Hezbollah to be destroyed, please do tell how you'd go about it.

[Topdawg]

I completely disagree. They are thinking people just like you and me. Your best friend dies because of a bombing, you're pissed off with whoever did it. Which means that people that wouldn't otherwise support Hezbollah, would support them if friends or family were dying because of Israel. The more innocent people that die because of Israel, the more supporters Hezbollah get.



I think Israel have went about this completely wrong. I want Hezbollah to be destroyed, I really do. But this isn't the way to do it!! In the words of a guy from Lebonon I watched on the news, who's child had died "Is Hezbollah here??" as he pointed to a large hole in the ground.

It seems to me, and many people, that the strikes from Israel aren't even surgical. They are just striking out in anger, saying they want to get Hezbollah, but it seems like they don't care who gets hurt.


WOW!, i agree with you 110%.

[kainedamo]

If you want Hezbollah to be destroyed, please do tell how you'd go about it.


Like all of the world's big problems, it would be a long and hard process. Creating more supporters for Hezbollah will get you nowhere.

As simply as I can put it, politics is the answer. Hard work on both sides to resolve the problems that they all have with each other. It would take years and years, a damn long time, and alot of heartache. But it would save lives and be less heartache than what is currently happening. And it would take less time too than what's currently happening.

Just look at Ireland. The amount of progess over here in the space of the last 10 years should be a shining example to the rest of the world.

[War Lord]

I completely disagree. They are thinking people just like you and me. Your best friend dies because of a bombing, you're pissed off with whoever did it. Which means that people that wouldn't otherwise support Hezbollah, would support them if friends or family were dying because of Israel. The more innocent people that die because of Israel, the more supporters Hezbollah get.

If the Lebanese were so concerned about Hezbollah prior to this little conflict, they had a good 6 years to remove Hezbollah from their presence, but they chose to do nothing.

If any other country tolerated a para-military group in their presence that did kidnappings and missile-firings into another country, it would be considered an act of war and treated accordingly.

I think Israel have went about this completely wrong. I want Hezbollah to be destroyed, I really do. But this isn't the way to do it!! In the words of a guy from Lebonon I watched on the news, who's child had died "Is Hezbollah here??" as he pointed to a large hole in the ground.

It seems to me, and many people, that the strikes from Israel aren't even surgical. They are just striking out in anger, saying they want to get Hezbollah, but it seems like they don't care who gets hurt.

Hezbollah ain't going to disassemble itself, it had to be taken apart from the outside. Since Lebanon had little interest in taking apart Hezbollah, somebody else had to and the rest of the world had little will in doing it, so it fell upon Israel to do it.

Like it or not, it was either a case of going in or doing nothing and there was no way that Israel could be expected to do nothing.

[War Lord]

If you want Hezbollah to be destroyed, please do tell how you'd go about it.

He wants it done, but wants it done in a non-existent easy way.

[Topdawg]

If the Lebanese were so concerned about Hezbollah prior to this little conflict, they had a good 6 years to remove Hezbollah from their presence, but they chose to do nothing.

If any other country tolerated a para-military group in their presence that did kidnappings and missile-firings into another country, it would be considered an act of war and treated accordingly.



Hezbollah ain't going to disassemble itself, it had to be taken apart from the outside. Since Lebanon had little interest in taking apart Hezbollah, somebody else had to and the rest of the world had little will in doing it, so it fell upon Israel to do it.

Like it or not, it was either a case of going in or doing nothing and there was no way that it could be expected to do nothing.


I dont think they want a war inside their own country.:up:

[InsaneMembrane]

I completely disagree. They are thinking people just like you and me. Your best friend dies because of a bombing, you're pissed off with whoever did it. Which means that people that wouldn't otherwise support Hezbollah, would support them if friends or family were dying because of Israel. The more innocent people that die because of Israel, the more supporters Hezbollah get.



I think Israel have went about this completely wrong. I want Hezbollah to be destroyed, I really do. But this isn't the way to do it!! In the words of a guy from Lebonon I watched on the news, who's child had died "Is Hezbollah here??" as he pointed to a large hole in the ground.

It seems to me, and many people, that the strikes from Israel aren't even surgical. They are just striking out in anger, saying they want to get Hezbollah, but it seems like they don't care who gets hurt.

Israel has around the 4th best military in the world, if they want to kill indiscriminately they should fire their soldiers now for incompatence(sp?)

So what did the people who didn't support Hezbollah do for Israel? did they disarm Hezbollah like they were supposed to? No they just let them fire rockets into Israel as they pleased.. and isnt the saying that people who stand around while bad things happen are just as bad as the people who do them..

Civilians dying is always unfortunate, but Hezbollah is purposefully hiding behind the civilian populations and doesn't care what happens to them even the UN agrees on that

I dont think they want a war inside their own country.

Ok so the Lebanese chose to avoid the loss of Lebanese life over the loss of Israeli lives...yet Israel can't use that same reasoning

[cass]

Like all of the world's big problems, it would be a long and hard process. Creating more supporters for Hezbollah will get you nowhere.

As simply as I can put it, politics is the answer. Hard work on both sides to resolve the problems that they all have with each other. It would take years and years, a damn long time, and alot of heartache. But it would save lives and be less heartache than what is currently happening. And it would take less time too than what's currently happening.

Just look at Ireland. The amount of progess over here in the space of the last 10 years should be a shining example to the rest of the world.

I think when one side refuses the right of existance of the other, you don't have time for years and years of heartache. Welcome to the real world.

One can't help it if the Lebanese are stupid enough to not blame Hezbollah who specificly imbed themselves within civilians. It still does not prevent Israel from defending its right to exist from terrorists.

[kainedamo]

If the Lebanese were so concerned about Hezbollah prior to this little conflict, they had a good 6 years to remove Hezbollah from their presence, but they chose to do nothing.

If any other country tolerated a para-military group in their presence that did kidnappings and missile-firings into another country, it would be considered an act of war and treated accordingly.

Ireland. Ireland Ireland Ireland Ireland Ireland Ireland Ireland.



Hezbollah ain't going to disassemble itself, it had to be taken apart from the outside. Since Lebanon had little interest in taking apart Hezbollah, somebody else had to and the rest of the world had little will in doing it, so it fell upon Israel to do it.

Like it or not, it was either a case of going in or doing nothing and there was no way that Israel could be expected to do nothing.

There are always more options. Israel ignored the options that would save lives and just decided to go in like a raging bull. Not the way to do things!

Everytime a terrorist organization decided to release a hostage, every single time, it was because of hard negotiations, not killing alot of innocent people. Israel had other options. They could use the extensive intelligence to try and track down those responsible quietly, which would have been so much better. Or attempted to make communication with those responsible and go from there. There was a million things Israel could have done.

[War Lord]

I dont think they want a war inside their own country.:up:

But they're willing to support a war with another country. :up:

[kainedamo]

I think when one side refuses the right of existance of the other, you don't have time for years and years of heartache. Welcome to the real world.

One can't help it if the Lebanese are stupid enough to not blame Hezbollah who specificly imbed themselves within civilians. It still does not prevent Israel from defending its right to exist from terrorists.

This post makes it clear you don't know about the politics of Northern Ireland, don't mean to be rude, but it's true.

Once upon a time, people said that the IRA would never EVER be willing to sit next to and share power with the British. Things change - and they change because of hard work on both sides.

[kainedamo]

Edit Quadrouple Post!

[kainedamo]

Edit Triple Post

[kainedamo]

Edit Triple Post

[InsaneMembrane]

This post makes it clear you don't know about the politics of Northern Ireland, don't mean to be rude, but it's true.

Once upon a time, people said that the IRA would never EVER be willing to sit next to and share power with the British. Things change - and they change because of hard work on both sides.

no offence but this post makes it clear you don't know anything about Hezbollah...they aren't the same kind of organization as the IRA just because they all blow things up don't mean they have the same kinds of reasoning...its like saying FARC and Hezbollah are the same...

[War Lord]

Ireland. Ireland Ireland Ireland Ireland Ireland Ireland Ireland.

So what?

IRA wasn't being supported by Ireland, as Hezbollah was with Lebanon, Syria and Iran. There is no comparison.

There are always more options. Israel ignored the options that would save lives and just decided to go in like a raging bull. Not the way to do things!

Everytime a terrorist organization decided to release a hostage, every single time, it was because of hard negotiations, not killing alot of innocent people. Israel had other options. They could use the extensive intelligence to try and track down those responsible quietly, which would have been so much better. Or attempted to make communication with those responsible and go from there. There was a million things Israel could have done.

Israel ignored options that didn't solve anything. Even if Israel gave Hezbollah 2,000,000% of everything it asked for, it would not stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel in the future. The only way to stop Hezbollah is to kill Hezbollah and the only way to kill Hezbollah is to go where Hezbollah is.

In a nutshell, there is no negotiating yourself out of existence which is what Hezbollah wants.

[cass]

This post makes it clear you don't know about the politics of Northern Ireland, don't mean to be rude, but it's true.

Once upon a time, people said that the IRA would never EVER be willing to sit next to and share power with the British. Things change - and they change because of hard work on both sides.

Your posts make it clear that you don't have a clue about Islamofascism.

Not a damn member of Hezbollah is working for peace with Israel. They're just doing the work of the benefactors, Syria and Iran, whom oddly enough want Israel "wiped off the map."

[War Lord]

This post makes it clear you don't know about the politics of Northern Ireland, don't mean to be rude, but it's true.

Once upon a time, people said that the IRA would never EVER be willing to sit next to and share power with the British. Things change - and they change because of hard work on both sides.

The difference between IRA and Hezbollah is that IRA wanted Britain out of Ireland, but wasn't gunning for Britain's nonexistence. Hezbollah simply wants Israel's nonexistence.

[kainedamo]

The difference between IRA and Hezbollah is that IRA wanted Britain out of Ireland, but wasn't gunning for Britain's nonexistence. Hezbollah simply wants Israel's nonexistence.


I'm watching Lost! I gotta cut this debate short! Before I go...

It's true that the organizations want different things. But let me ask you this. Are the British out of Ireland? Has Northern Ireland become united with the south? No... so why have the IRA stopped bombing, kidnapping shooting, and pretty much every other criminal activity?

[War Lord]

I'm watching Lost! I gotta cut this debate short! Before I go...

It's true that the organizations want different things. But let me ask you this. Are the British out of Ireland? Has Northern Ireland become united with the south? No... so why have the IRA stopped bombing, kidnapping shooting, and pretty much every other criminal activity?

Probably because the IRA finally ran out of funds and all their methods of fundraising, i.e. criminal activity, were fully found out by the Brits, making it difficult to continue to raise funds.

If you want to dry up Hezbollah the same way, then you're going to have to find a way to take down Iran, which funds most of Hezbollah's activities.

[cass]

I'm watching Lost! I gotta cut this debate short! Before I go...

It's true that the organizations want different things. But let me ask you this. Are the British out of Ireland? Has Northern Ireland become united with the south? No... so why have the IRA stopped bombing, kidnapping shooting, and pretty much every other criminal activity?

Like someone said earlier, just because both groups have no problem using bombs does not make them the same. It's a completely different story. Scream, "IRELAND! IRELAND! IRELAND!" all you want, but frankly, it's irrelevant to the current situation.

[Spade]

From what I've seen there are some rational people posting here and others that are going for the 'let's hug the killers and forget about the innocent people they kill in their suicide attacks' approach. I'll just say this much- this entire problem was caused by the League of Nations, now the United Nations, way back when. They haven't gotten off their laurels in 60 years on this, and have just nodded their head at the issue looking for a nonexistent peaceful answer from the international community and us. I've said this when the War on Terror started and I'll say it again- you cannot rationalize with these people; all they understand is violence and retaliation. If the UN won't do anything, I say they help us eliminate this blight from the face of the earth or just step aside (or keep on twiddling their thumbs, whichever works). You cannot solve Islamofascism with deterrence alone.

[kainedamo]

Probably because the IRA finally ran out of funds and all their methods of fundraising, i.e. criminal activity, were fully found out by the Brits, making it difficult to continue to raise funds.

If you want to dry up Hezbollah the same way, then you're going to have to find a way to take down Iran, which funds most of Hezbollah's activities.

Wrong. The IRA destroyed all of their weapons and ceased all criminal activity because it was required by the Good Friday Agreement...

An agreement come to thanks to years of hard work by good people on both sides.

THAT is how you stop terrorism.

[Superman4ever]

Civilians dying is always unfortunate, but Hezbollah is purposefully hiding behind the civilian populations and doesn't care what happens to them even the UN agrees on that


So I guess it's OK to drop a 500 pound bomb on innocent civilians because you think a terrorist is hiding between them (when did 2 wrongs make a right again?). :up: I hate this cowardly apologetic crap! It's NOT OK for Hamas or Hezbollah to purposefully target innocent lives, and it's NOT OK for Israel to do the same thing. And face it that's exactly what they are doing.

So why can't we use the same tactic here in the US? If there is a serial killer out there and we think he's living in an apartment complex, why don't we bomb the **** out of that place just to be sure.

"He was hiding between civilians, but we got'em!"

[TheSumOfGod]

I'm sure that I'll come across as an anti-Semite for saying this, but... in my opinion, the ONLY way for there to be peace in the Middle-East is for Israel to go bye-bye. Only way. Give the jews a homeland somewhere else, in agreement with the people who already live there, in Russia or Germany or wherever, but the state of Israel has got to get the f*** out of muslim territory. Being surrounded at all times by entire nations full of over a BILLION sworn enemies is never a good idea, even if you do have 52 nukes and a capitalist empire watching your back. They're just asking for trouble now with this bombing the s**t out of/sending troops into Lebanon bulls**t.

[Spade]

Wrong. The IRA destroyed all of their weapons and ceased all criminal activity because it was required by the Good Friday Agreement...

An agreement come to thanks to years of hard work by good people on both sides.

THAT is how you stop terrorism.

That is how you stop terrorism with semi-rational people. These guys enjoy the prospect of dying for religious fanaticism, not just a belief. This isn't a situation that can be diffused. We've had this problem in the Middle East for hundreds of years now, erring back to the Ottoman Empire. You're thinking that there is some sort of boon we can come to, or an ideology we can remark upon. We can't, and you're wrong.

So I guess it's OK to drop a 500 pound bomb on innocent civilians because you think a terrorist is hiding between them (when did 2 wrongs make a right again?). :up: I hate this cowardly apologetic crap! It's NOT OK for Hamas or Hezbollah to purposefully target innocent lives, and it's NOT OK for Israel to do the same thing. And face it that's exactly what they are doing.

Destroy Hamas by crippling their outposts or wait until they kill more people and get their hands on a WMD? Hmm. Tough question. I'll go with the preceding, if you don't mind. We once had to make a decision like this in WW2- cripple Japan so they couldn't continue the fight or let the battle turn into bloodbath. Truman made the decision and then had a glass of milk before bed, because he knew that he was right for doing so. The only reason we can't do that now is because the international community chastises all forms of self-defense, to the point that they expect us to protect them yet cripple our militaristic power so we can't even do that. This is how you lose a war, and the religious compulsion to kill non-believers will ensure this isn't the first time we deal with them.

I'm sure that I'll come across as an anti-Semite for saying this, but... in my opinion, the ONLY way for there to be peace in the Middle-East is for Israel to go bye-bye. Only way. Give the jews a homeland somewhere else, in agreement with the people who already live there, in Russia or Germany or wherever, but the state of Israel has got to get the f*** out of muslim territory. Being surrounded at all times by entire nations full of over a BILLION sworn enemies is never a good idea, even if you do have 52 nukes and a capitalist empire watching your back. They're just asking for trouble now with this bombing the s**t out of/sending troops into Lebanon bulls**t.

They were beset at all sides at one time. They called it the Six Day War because in six days they beat away all attackers and made Israel a giant blot on the map. If you don't believe me, check the history books as to how they got the Gaza Strip. Had the UN not butted in again they would be speaking in Hebrew in the Middle East right now. They're not looking for war, but the main concern shouldn't be the people hating them. It should be how to get those people eliminated.

[cass]

Wrong. The IRA destroyed all of their weapons and ceased all criminal activity because it was required by the Good Friday Agreement...

An agreement come to thanks to years of hard work by good people on both sides.

THAT is how you stop terrorism.

http://www.azfotos.com/food_meals/fruits/stockphotosalamy/red_apples_AEA24C.jpg

and

http://home.earthlink.net/~remanski/oranges.jpg

[Hooligan32]

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/shells.jpg


Lebanon's cabinet says the country faces "real annihilation'' by Israel and accuses the Jewish state of using banned weapons against civilians.

Information Minister Ghazi Aridi said after an emergency cabinet meeting that Israel was using internationally prohibited weapons against civilians.

He did not elaborate, but Lebanese media reports, which could not be confirmed, claimed Israel had used phosphorus incendiary and vacuum bombs, which suck up the air and collapse buildings.

More than 200 Lebanese civilians have been killed by Israel's attacks.

In Israel, defence minister Amir Peretz said that his country would not stop its offensive in Lebanon until "the reality changes''.

He said the army would continue to target the sources of guerrilla rocket fire into northern Israel.

But, Peretz added that Israel would not reoccupy Lebanon, nor would it stay there for the long term.

At a meeting with officials in Haifa, where eight people were killed in a missile strike, Peretz promised that the army would continue to fight the Lebanese guerrillas to stop the attacks on northern Israel.

"We've no intention of stopping this campaign until the reality has changed,'' he said. "Whoever hit Haifa will pay a heavy price.''

Peretz also urged Israelis to be strong, remain calm and have patience while the army continued its offensive to try to stop the rocket fire.

Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia today donated £27million to Lebanon in response to a plea for help made by its prime minister Fuad Saniora, a Saudi official said.

The official said King Abdullah had ordered a fund transfer immediately.

The aid was aimed at "providing urgent relief to lessen the suffering of the Lebanese people in these difficult times,'' the official said in Riyadh.

On Saturday, Saniora urged Arab countries to provide assistance to his "disaster-stricken country''.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

that's almost as good as the Lemming!

[Hooligan32]

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/shells.jpg Hooray for War!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cass]

While unfortunate and unwise if true, look at the accuser.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I've never understood this notion of "illegal weapons".
The weapons of War are for killing people.
You use whatever kills people well.
:confused:

[TheSumOfGod]

Israel has got to go. Call me an anti-Semite, whatever, I have nothing against the jewish people, but there will never be peace in the Middle-East as long as the state of Israel continues to exist. You know that I'm right about this.

[InsaneMembrane]

So I guess it's OK to drop a 500 pound bomb on innocent civilians because you think a terrorist is hiding between them (when did 2 wrongs make a right again?). :up: I hate this cowardly apologetic crap! It's NOT OK for Hamas or Hezbollah to purposefully target innocent lives, and it's NOT OK for Israel to do the same thing. And face it that's exactly what they are doing.

So why can't we use the same tactic here in the US? If there is a serial killer out there and we think he's living in an apartment complex, why don't we bomb the **** out of that place just to be sure.

"He was hiding between civilians, but we got'em!"


I don't think that Israel is purposefully targeting civilians...I condemn that all around

[Superman4ever]

http://www.azfotos.com/food_meals/fruits/stockphotosalamy/red_apples_AEA24C.jpg

and

http://home.earthlink.net/~remanski/oranges.jpg

Both are fruits, coming from flowering plants -- BOOM, comparable!

[TheSumOfGod]

I've never understood this notion of "illegal weapons".
The weapons of War are for killing people.
You use whatever kills people well.
:confused:

Nerve gas would be an example of an illegal weapon, I suppose.

[Hooligan32]

I've never understood this notion of "illegal weapons".
The weapons of War are for killing people.
You use whatever kills people well.
:confused: Appearently the hospitals are being over-run with civilians suffering from severe chemical burns. They aren't so much dying in the blasts as they are being painfully tortured to death. According to news reports from BBC anyhow.

[Hooligan32]

I don't think that Israel is purposefully targeting civilians Then they have attrocious aim.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Israel has got to go. Call me an anti-Semite, whatever, I have nothing against the jewish people, but there will never be peace in the Middle-East as long as the state of Israel continues to exist. You know that I'm right about this.I was watching the McGlaughlin Group and they read an excerpt from an article that was saying that it was a "mistake" to give European Jews that land 'cause like, look at all the discord, suffering, conflict, etc. that's resulted from it.

BoInG!:eek:

[Spade]

Both are fruits, coming from flowering plants -- BOOM, comparable!

The comparison totally went over your head, didn't it?

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Appearently the hospitals are being over-run with civilians suffering from severe chemical burns. They aren't so much dying in the blasts as they are being painfully tortured to death. According to news reports from BBC anyhow.Yeah, horrific...just like when a "legal weapon" blows your leg off, or blinds you, or melts your face off but leaves you alive, or gives you third degree burns over your entire body.:confused:

[TheSumOfGod]

Although, we shouldn't talk about such things out loud, because, you know, the Rothschilds might hear us...

[Superman]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20060724/ljd060724.gif

[Spade]

Actually, the plan is "we kill them until they don't exist anymore".

[Superman4ever]

I don't think that Israel is purposefully targeting civilians...I condemn that all around

I didn't say that you did...

Civilians dying is always unfortunate, but Hezbollah is purposefully hiding behind the civilian populations and doesn't care what happens to them even the UN agrees on that

I was just asking if it made it right. That's exactly what's happening in Lebanon right now--you know it--why do you think the civilian death toll is so grand? Sudden spike in heart failure, or lung cancer. Bombs are being dropped in the middle of civilian complexes to kill one or two terrorist.

It's ALL over the news, bombs are being dropped in the middle of shopping centers, residential buildings, markets. Condemn all you want, but it IS happening.

[Hooligan32]

Yeah, horrific...just like when a "legal weapon" blows your leg off, or blinds you, or melts your face off but leaves you alive, or gives you third degree burns over your entire body.:confused: Chemical burns are different. I understand what you're saying, but if these allegations are true it would mean that Israel is purposely putting things into it's bombs to "maximise" suffering.

[TheSumOfGod]

People say that Israel doesn't belong to the Rothschild family, but just look at their money:

http://www.jr.co.il/pictures/israel/currency/jril0708.jpg

That's a Rothschild! :eek:

[Tangled Web]

**** Hezlobah!
Israel all the way, Hezlobah is a bunch of terrorists.

[jaguarr]

You mean....they found brass knuckles in Israel's trunks?! That's dirty fighting! :mad:

jag

[TheSumOfGod]

**** Hezlobah!
Israel all the way, Hezlobah is a bunch of terrorists.

Israel is a terrorist state, a terrorist state with 52 nuclear weapons aimed at countries that DON'T have nuclear weapons, a terrorist state that is presently killing hundreds of innocent civilians and invading a neighboring country. The ONLY, ONLY reason anyone in their right minds would support Israel is because of either pro-jewish or anti-muslim sentiment, NOTHING to do with being fair and objective.

[Superman4ever]

While unfortunate and unwise if true, look at the accuser.

Get them terrorist bastards!

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/media.canada.com/cp/world/20060713/w071309a.jpg?size=l

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/9D3DD5E3-C2E9-4B14-875A-D18AB2087FF9/132872/8084C64EC9D74A3D9F2AF96155CB3443.jpg


http://electronicintifada.net/artman/uploads/flag-girl260.jpg