The Israel Situation

[kainedamo]

In a large way I have to agree with SumOfGod. Israel have been incredibly ****ty. I heard someone refer to Israel as "a beaming light of democracy for the Middle East", something along those lines, which is really just insane.

Israel is just as bad as any terrorist state.

[Tangled Web]

Israel is a terrorist state, a terrorist state with 52 nuclear weapons aimed at countries that DON'T have nuclear weapons, a terrorist state that is presently killing hundreds of innocent civilians and invading a neighboring country. The ONLY, ONLY reason anyone in their right minds would support Israel is because of either pro-jewish or anti-muslim sentiment, NOTHING to do with being fair and objective.
Not buying it! This is a no spin zone!

Seriously though, this is an ugly situation, there are wrongs on both sides.

[InsaneMembrane]

I didn't say that you did...


I was just asking if it made it right. That's exactly what's happening in Lebanon right now--you know it--why do you think the civilian death toll is so grand? Sudden spike in heart failure, or lung cancer. Bombs are being dropped in the middle of civilian complexes to kill one or two terrorist.

It's ALL over the news, bombs are being dropped in the middle of shopping centers, residential buildings, markets. Condemn all you want, but it IS happening.




So how should Israel minimize the civilian death toll, while disarming Hezbollah's headquarters in south beruit and southern lebanon?

[kainedamo]

Stop bombing??

[Superman4ever]

Israel is a terrorist state, a terrorist state with 52 nuclear weapons aimed at countries that DON'T have nuclear weapons, a terrorist state that is presently killing hundreds of innocent civilians and invading a neighboring country. The ONLY, ONLY reason anyone in their right minds would support Israel is because of either pro-jewish or anti-muslim sentiment, NOTHING to do with being fair and objective.

They actually have around 200-300 nuclear weapons.

[Spade]

Stop bombing??

while disarming Hezbollah's headquarters in south beruit and southern lebanon?

Your response only answers half of the question.

[Hooligan32]

Seriously though, this is an ugly situation, there are wrongs on both sides. I can agree with that.:up:

[Spidey Rules 2]

Israel is a terrorist state, a terrorist state with 52 nuclear weapons aimed at countries that DON'T have nuclear weapons, a terrorist state that is presently killing hundreds of innocent civilians and invading a neighboring country. The ONLY, ONLY reason anyone in their right minds would support Israel is because of either pro-jewish or anti-muslim sentiment, NOTHING to do with being fair and objective.

Okay I don't agree with you there. I have no ties to Israel what so ever, but from what I've seen on TV, 2 soldiers from Israel had been kidnapped. Shouldn't a country protect it's citizens? Maybe after all this is over, Hazbola will think twice about attacking Israel. I already heard about Syria and Iran wanting to come to the aid of Lebanon. Why do they feel they need to gang up on Israel. This has been going on for years.

Maybe what we should do is what my parents use to do to my sister and I when ever we would fight over something. We'd lose it. Maybe we should just evacuate most of Israel's city's (including those in Palestine) and nuke them all. Then no one can live in that area for hundreds of years and maybe the fighting will stop.

[kainedamo]

Send in some soldiers since the soldiers have already invaded??

[Superman4ever]

Seriously though, this is an ugly situation, there are wrongs on both sides.

This is actually a rational statement...

[Tangled Web]

I can agree with that.:up:
We all need to take a step back to analyze the situation. It's not clear cut. You know? Thee's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear.

[InsaneMembrane]

Send in some soldiers since the soldiers have already invaded??

Ok you support a full-scale invasion instead...

Neither side is ever wholly innocent in the Arab-Israeli conflict this situation included but it seems everyone can say this is the wrong way to do this yet no one can give the right way to do things

[Hooligan32]

Your response only answers half of the question. Allow me to answer the other half: It seems as though the problem with Hezbollah is that they are "brownish" and don't really want to start believing in God. Not Allah, I mean real God, for the purpose of this excercise we'll refer to him as white God. Now I believe it to be a common misconception that brown people simply won't accept white God (real God) and think that it's more likely that they just have trouble concentrating on the Bible or Torah when they try to read it. Perhaps if people of white faith (real faith) were to set up some sort of area for them where they could get together and learn how to concentrate. A sort of camp, with fun activities and the like. I can't imagine what you'd call it, but I'm sure the white faith folks would love to have the brownies concentrating.

[kainedamo]

Ok you support a full-scale invasion instead...

No, not a full scale invasion.

Just send 'em to where they know Hezbullah are. Alot better than just bombing everything.

[Hooligan32]

Fighting over Holy Land is about as rational as fighting over magic beans.

[InsaneMembrane]

No, not a full scale invasion.

Just send 'em to where they know Hezbullah are. Alot better than just bombing everything.

Like Southern beirut and southern Lebanon, Israel would have to fully invade to be able to send ground troops into Beirut...

[Superman4ever]

Ok you support a full-scale invasion instead...

That might be a better idea then just arbitrarily dropping bombs. I support the uprooting of terror, I supported Israel in it's fight and thought that Hezbollah's kidnapping of the soldiers was an act of war, but you can't look at what's going on in Lebanon rationally and still say, 'go Israel!'

Unless, of course, you think that Armageddon is upon us then you’re just absent of rational.

[kainedamo]

Christ, I don't know! They shouldn't be there in the first place! But now that they're there, just whatever method kills the least amount of innocents would be nice!!

Which means... no more bombing.

[Superman4ever]

No, not a full scale invasion.

Just send 'em to where they know Hezbullah are. Alot better than just bombing everything.

BINGO!

[kainedamo]

Someone said here, on these boards, that God says the Jews are entitled to the land.

Insania.

[InsaneMembrane]

That might be a better idea then just arbitrarily dropping bombs. I support the uprooting of terror, I supported Israel in it's fight and thought that Hezbollah's kidnapping of the soldiers was an act of war, but you can't look at what's going on in Lebanon rationally and still say, 'go Israel!'

Unless, of course, you think that Armageddon is upon us then you’re just absent of rational.

Don't be an ass I've been civil :rolleyes:

I've never said "go Israel" I support anti-terrorism measures wheter it be Israel doing it or any other country... I don't see how sending in ground troops would minimilze civilian casulaties and with Hezbollah's strengths they would need a lot of ground troops, and how would they reach Beruit without having to go through all of southern Lebanon it would be a full-scale invasion

[Tangled Web]

I do have religious ties to Israel, so I don't want the state to be destroyed. I'd just like there to be peace.

[Fred_Fury]

how is phospherous illegal? we use that crap on tracer rounds

[Alonsovich]

Someone said here, on these boards, that God says the Jews are entitled to the land.

Insania.

I suppose that the Muslims are also entitled to that land since Jerusalem is also a Holy city for them... basically the combo of both is actually the reason why we have this incredible mess.

[Tangled Web]

Hey man, Israel is considered Holy Land for Christians too, but I'll be damned if Ireland, the USA, England and the Vatican lead the conquest on it.

[Alonsovich]

Hey man, Israel is considered Holy Land for Christians too, but I'll be damned if Ireland, the USA, England and the Vatican lead the conquest on it.

Those happened 1000 years ago... they were called Crusades.

[Tangled Web]

Those happened 1000 years ago... they were called Crusades.
We're much more logical than that now. People back then also used to burn people they suspected of being witches, whip themselves because of plague, and they thought the sun was the devil.

[vindrow]

Fighting over Holy Land is about as rational as fighting over magic beans.


Hey dude,

Don't mess with my magic beans:mad: :eek:

[Superman4ever]

Hey dude,

Don't mess with my magic beans:mad: :eek:

They're my beans!

*quickly snatches them and runs*

:mad:

[Alonsovich]

They're my beans!

*quickly snatches them and runs*

:mad:

*blasts Superman4ever with grenade*

*eats beans with tomato sauce*

[The Overlord]

Israel is a terrorist state, a terrorist state with 52 nuclear weapons aimed at countries that DON'T have nuclear weapons, a terrorist state that is presently killing hundreds of innocent civilians and invading a neighboring country. The ONLY, ONLY reason anyone in their right minds would support Israel is because of either pro-jewish or anti-muslim sentiment, NOTHING to do with being fair and objective.

There is the fact that Israel's social policy is vastly superior to all other countries in that region, Israel allows its gay population to have marches and protests, can tell me of any other country in the ME that does that? Perhaps it was a mistake to create the state Israel in that insane part of the world, but lets face it, the Jews needed a nation state to defend themsleves after WWII and the Holocaust and due to religious reasons most Jews would have wanted to build that state in the ME.

Yeah Israel was created by ethnic cleansing, but so was almost every other country in the world, the US was, Canada was, Australia was, etc. Those are the three countries are just off the top of my head, with little research I could likely find more examples. You and I live in Canada, so we are both living stolen land and my family lost its land in Scotland 200 years in a war with the British, so if have I had land stolen from me, but you don't see me whining. The fact is Israel has existed for nearly 60 years and is as much a country as the US and Canada is, it is not going away and people will just have to learn to share the strip of desert.

[Wilhelm-Scream]

The fact is Israel has existed for nearly 60 years and is as much a country as the US and Canada is, it is not going away and people will just have to learn to share the strip of desert.Yes. That's going to happen when I have sex with Nicole Kidman on the moon tonight.

[JLBats]

Is sex in zero gravity possible?

[Wilhelm-Scream]

awkward, unwieldy, possible

[Spade]

Allow me to answer the other half: It seems as though the problem with Hezbollah is that they are "brownish" and don't really want to start believing in God. Not Allah, I mean real God, for the purpose of this excercise we'll refer to him as white God. Now I believe it to be a common misconception that brown people simply won't accept white God (real God) and think that it's more likely that they just have trouble concentrating on the Bible or Torah when they try to read it. Perhaps if people of white faith (real faith) were to set up some sort of area for them where they could get together and learn how to concentrate. A sort of camp, with fun activities and the like. I can't imagine what you'd call it, but I'm sure the white faith folks would love to have the brownies concentrating.

You're alluding to Guantanamo Bay, and in doing so probably made the most racial remarks I've seen in a single post. Apparently exploitations of racial division trumps the notion uniting under a righteous cause for the sake of all those here now and who will be here later.

Crude humor FTW! :down

[Colossal Spoons]

You do realize that more people are joining Hezbollah than ever before, right??

Look at Bloody Sunday here in Ireland. The British kill around 30 innocent people for no reason. What happens?? More people join the IRA than ever before.

That's what happens when the government kills innocent people. The innocent people get pissed off. If I had super powers, I'd destroy a few Israeli tanks, and tell Israel to back the hell off.

Hey! Those are U.S. tanks buddy. :mad:

[The Overlord]

Yes. That's going to happen when I have sex with Nicole Kidman on the moon tonight.

That may be, but thinking Israel is going to just go away one day is about as realstic as Bush getting into Mensa.

[jaguarr]

You're alluding to Guantanamo Bay, and in doing so probably made the most racial remarks I've seen in a single post. Apparently exploitations of racial division trumps the notion uniting under a righteous cause for the sake of all those here now and who will be here later.

Crude humor FTW! :down

Ummm....you might check the batteries on your sarcasm detector. :)

jag

[Matt]

Israel is killing civilians. That'll show the terrorists.

[Mr Sparkle]

I think you'll find that wasn't part of Hezbollah's claim as to why they did the kidnappings. They wanted convicted prisoner's released, that's it.

If you want it to really stop, as opposed to just put off for another time, Hezbollah must be destroyed.

what I do find is you brushing off the beach massacre like it didn't even happen.

what up yo? you don't seem to grasp the fact that evil is always evil, even when Israelis are doing it.

[Spade]

Ummm....you might check the batteries on your sarcasm detector. :)

jag

I know it's sarcasm. I'm just a "to the point" person, and don't think a serious topic should be approached with that response.

[Hooligan32]

I know it's sarcasm. I'm just a "to the point" person, and don't think a serious topic should be approached with that response. This is one of the reasons you love war. You have no sense of humour with which to entertain yourself otherwise.

[jaguarr]

I know it's sarcasm. I'm just a "to the point" person, and don't think a serious topic should be approached with that response.

This message board stands a very good chance of giving you an ulcer, then.

jag

[Mr Sparkle]

Israel has around the 4th best military in the world, if they want to kill indiscriminately they should fire their soldiers now for incompatence(sp?)

so, then you think that some loos of innocent life is necessary if you want to win a war?

So what did the people who didn't support Hezbollah do for Israel? did they disarm Hezbollah like they were supposed to? No they just let them fire rockets into Israel as they pleased.. and isnt the saying that people who stand around while bad things happen are just as bad as the people who do them.

Hmmm, this is one is interesting, because it assumes that , if I uinderstand you correvtly civillians are going to walk up to Hezbolah and prevent them from firing rockest into Israel? However, your last statement is true, and I think that no Israeli has done anything about the refugee camp raids and demolitions, not to mention invasions on foreign land.

right?

Civilians dying is always unfortunate, but Hezbollah is purposefully hiding behind the civilian populations and doesn't care what happens to them even the UN agrees on that

Hmmm, again, in the end, you're able to transfer the blame for the death of civillians to Hezbolah?
last time I checked the ammunition was Israeli.


Ok so the Lebanese chose to avoid the loss of Lebanese life over the loss of Israeli lives...yet Israel can't use that same reasoning

Hmmm, so, remind me, who where the Lebanese Killing directly with their Army again? otherwise your comparison is flawed.

[Mr Sparkle]

how is phospherous illegal? we use that crap on tracer rounds

I'm pretty sure he was in a shakespeare play right?

[Spade]

This is one of the reasons you love war. You have no sense of humour with which to entertain yourself otherwise.

Actually, I enjoy what little of my life I have enough to protect it with something I would rather not engage in. Learn the difference.

This message board stands a very good chance of giving you an ulcer, then.

I realized that much long before I went to the sign-up page.

[jaguarr]

I realized that much long before I went to the sign-up page.

Alright. As long as you're aware of the dangers. :up:

Have fun!
jag

[Hooligan32]

4 U.N. Observers Die in Israeli Airstrike

BEIRUT, Lebanon - An Israeli bomb destroyed a U.N. observer post on the border in southern Lebanon, killing two peacekeepers and leaving two others feared dead in what appeared to be a deliberate strike, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said.

The bomb made a direct hit on the building and shelter of the observer post in the town of Khiyam near the eastern end of the border with Israel, said Milos Struger, spokesman for the U.N. peacekeeping force in Lebanon known as UNIFIL.

Annan issued a statement saying two U.N. military observers were killed with two more feared dead. Earlier, U.S. Ambassador John Bolton said the Security Council was informed that four officers were killed.

Story continues below ↓
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These deaths brought to you in part by; "Boeing: Delivering Freedom One Airstrike at a Time."

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Ambassador denies post intentionally targeted
Israel's U.N. Ambassador Dan Gillerman expressed his "deep regret" for the deaths and denied the post was intentionally targeted.

Rescue workers were trying to clear the rubble, but Israeli firing "continued even during the rescue operation," Struger said.

U.N. officials said four observers were in the post when the bomb hit, and the building had been destroyed. Two bodies had been recovered and two were unaccounted for, apparently still in the rubble. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The victims included observers from Austria, a Canada, China and Finland, U.N. and Lebanese military officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release the information to the media. It was not immediately known which were confirmed dead.


As reports of the attack emerged, Annan rushed out of a hotel in Rome following a dinner with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora.

"I am shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting by Israeli Defense Forces of a U.N. Observer post in southern Lebanon," Annan said in the statement.

Annan said in his statement that the post had been there for a long time and was marked clearly, and was hit despite assurances from Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that U.N. positions would not be attacked.

"I call on the government of Israel to conduct a full investigation into this very disturbing incident and demand that any further attack on U.N. positions and personnel must stop," Annan said in the statement.

Gillerman called the assertions "premature and erroneous."

"I am shocked and deeply distressed by the hasty statement of the secretary-general, insinuating that Israel has deliberately targeted the U.N. post," he said.

He said Israel would investigate the bombing. "We do not have yet information what caused this death: it could be the IDF (Israel's military) it could be Hezbollah," he said.

Since Israel launched a massive military offensive against Lebanon and Hezbollah guerrillas July 12, an international civilian employee working with UNIFIL and his wife have been killed in the crossfire between Israeli forces and Hezbollah guerrillas in the southern port city of Tyre.

Five UNIFIL soldiers and one military observer have also been wounded, Struger said.

[InsaneMembrane]

so, then you think that some loos of innocent life is necessary if you want to win a war?

No I think loss of innocent lives is unfortunately inevitable in war, name one where it hasn't happened other than the "cold war" unless you are pacifist then I can understand what you are trying to say


Hmmm, this is one is interesting, because it assumes that , if I uinderstand you correvtly civillians are going to walk up to Hezbolah and prevent them from firing rockest into Israel? However, your last statement is true, and I think that no Israeli has done anything about the refugee camp raids and demolitions, not to mention invasions on foreign land.

right?

Supporting Hezbollah isn't a captial offence and those who do support (not fight for them) them ideologically shouldn't be killed that's not what I'm saying , my response was the point that of Israel creating more Hezbollah supporters, that there wasn't a big difference between the non-supporters and the supporters in the first place and more Hezbollah supporters won't make things any worse that it was before for the Israelis, that doesn't mean I would justify Israel bombing them indiscrimately(sp?)






Hmmm, again, in the end, you're able to transfer the blame for the death of civillians to Hezbolah?
last time I checked the ammunition was Israeli.

Last time I checked the whole situation wasn't black and white (weren't you the one saying that to me last time), so if I'm shooting in say a firing range and another individual shoves a bystander in the way of my line of fire, I should be held responsible for the death not the person who shoved the bystander?


Hmmm, so, remind me, who where the Lebanese Killing directly with their Army again? otherwise your comparison is flawed.

Not when the Lebanese have been saying that Hezbollah is a legitimate Lebanese resistance force and so therefore need not be disarmed according to 1559


Please don't think I believe that Israel is some innocent lamb being slaughtered by the mean, mean arabs, I just think that they aren't indiscriminately targeting civilians for I believe the death toll would be much higher I could be wrong and if an investigation comes out saying it I would judge accordingly

[jaguarr]

Story continues below ↓
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These deaths brought to you in part by; "Boeing: Delivering Freedom One Airstrike at a Time."

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This was a nice touch. :up:

Israel is out of hand, now. They need to be reigned in.

jag

[Gamma Ray]

Israel has got to go. Call me an anti-Semite, whatever, I have nothing against the jewish people, but there will never be peace in the Middle-East as long as the state of Israel continues to exist. You know that I'm right about this.


Sounds like a plan. Lets round up the residents and put them into... hmmm... camps, maybe? :mad:


You're such a dimwit. I wish your banning was permanent.

[venomadness]

Sounds like a plan. Lets round up the residents and put them into... hmmm... camps, maybe? :mad:


You're such a dimwit. I wish your banning was permanent.

Yah, think before you speak you f'n Nazi!

[Spade]

Ambassador denies post intentionally targeted
Israel's U.N. Ambassador Dan Gillerman expressed his "deep regret" for the deaths and denied the post was intentionally targeted.

That's pretty much where your post ends for me. It wasn't intentional. The Israelis didn't put their bombs on Innocent Onlooker Heat-Seeking mode. The rest of it is moot and filled with comments in vain attempt to get others to see things your way. Nice try.

[Hooligan32]

That's pretty much where your post ends for me. It wasn't intentional. The Israelis didn't put their bombs on Innocent Onlooker Heat-Seeking mode. The rest of it is moot and filled with comments in vain attempt to get others to see things your way. Nice try. Yeah, y'know, since I write for MSNBC.:confused: :down

[Spade]

Yeah, y'know, since I write for MSNBC.:confused: :down

You intentionally quoted a news article that had the quotes made to lean torwards your view. You don't have to write it to profit off of it. All of the 'everyman' quotes there are from people who completely disregarded the Ambassador's comment about not having intentionally bombed innocent people. As I said, nice try. You don't have to be Newton to see what you were trying to do by posting that skewered article.

[Hooligan32]

You intentionally quoted a news article that had the quotes made to lean torwards your view. You don't have to write it to profit off of it. All of the 'everyman' quotes there are from people who completely disregarded the Ambassador's comment about not having intentionally bombed innocent people. As I said, nice try. You don't have to be Newton to see what you were trying to do by posting that skewered article. O.K., I'm just gonna leave this conversation to go give Hitler head.:o

[Spade]

O.K., I'm just gonna leave this conversation to go give Hitler head.:o

You have fun with that now, y'hear?

[Mr Sparkle]

Please don't think I believe that Israel is some innocent lamb being slaughtered by the mean, mean arabs, I just think that they aren't indiscriminately targeting civilians for I believe the death toll would be much higher I could be wrong and if an investigation comes out saying it I would judge accordingly


No I think loss of innocent lives is unfortunately inevitable in war, name one where it hasn't happened other than the "cold war" unless you are pacifist then I can understand what you are trying to say

so, then terrorists Killing civillians is just another instance of losses in a war? what I mean, is people get outraged when terrorists kill civillians (with good reason) but when civillians are targeted by the army, somehow they get a pass.

just seems weird.





Supporting Hezbollah isn't a captial offence and those who do support (not fight for them) them ideologically shouldn't be killed that's not what I'm saying , my response was the point that of Israel creating more Hezbollah supporters, that there wasn't a big difference between the non-supporters and the supporters in the first place and more Hezbollah supporters won't make things any worse that it was before for the Israelis, that doesn't mean I would justify Israel bombing them indiscrimately(sp?)

actually, you're wrong there, the more deaths the more support Hezbolah will get, and believe me, there is marked between soem guy that says "well hezbolah has a right to fight"to a guy that says "okay dude*, once i get into the restaurant I'll pull the trigger mechanism and then...."


* I don't think that they say dude, but you never know.


Last time I checked the whole situation wasn't black and white (weren't you the one saying that to me last time), so if I'm shooting in say a firing range and another individual shoves a bystander in the way of my line of fire, I should be held responsible for the death not the person who shoved the bystander?

your example is again flawed, let's say I'm shooting at a guy, and he runs into a crowd, and instead of holding off, I keep picking off bystanders till i get a clear shot.

who's fault is it then?


Not when the Lebanese have been saying that Hezbollah is a legitimate Lebanese resistance force and so therefore need not be disarmed according to 1559

again, Hezbolah was not attacked by the lebanese, because some sectors of lebanon where occupied by Israel, and Hezbolah ahd support there, so the government tolerated or perhaps even acknowledged them as a resistance force.
ok

how is this comparable to Israel bombing the **** out of Lebanon to get to Hezbolah? my point was...who did the lebanese attack? how is this comparable since they are being attacked now.

[Childlike Wild]

That's pretty much where your post ends for me. It wasn't intentional. The Israelis didn't put their bombs on Innocent Onlooker Heat-Seeking mode. The rest of it is moot and filled with comments in vain attempt to get others to see things your way. Nice try.
Haaretz's version:

Four peacekeepers were killed on Tuesday in an Israel Air Force strike on a United Nations base in southern Lebanon.

The victims included observers from Austria, a Canada, China and Finland, UN and Lebanese military officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release the information to the media.

Israel said on Wednesday that it regrets the "tragic" deaths of the observers and would thoroughly investigate the causes that led to their deaths.

"Israel sincerely regrets the tragic death of the UN personnel in south Lebanon," said Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev.

UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan had earlier called for an inquiry into what he called Israel's "apparently deliberate targeting" of the UN observer force.

Dan Ayalon, Israel's Ambassador to the UN demanded that Annon apologize for the remarks, which he called "baseless."

The four observers were killed after a bomb directly struck the building and shelter of an Indian patrol base from an observer force in the town of Khiyam near the eastern end of the border with Israel, said Milos Struger, spokesman for the UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon, UNIFIL.

"There are casualties among the observers. UNIFIL immediately despatched a rescue and medical team and they're currently on the location but unable to clear the rubble," Struger said.

At UN headquarters in New York, UN chief Kofi Annan said he was "trying to get the details" of the attack.

Annan said there were 14 other incidents of Israeli gunfire directed at the targeted area Tuesday afternoon. "The firing continued even during the rescue operation," he said.

[InsaneMembrane]

so, then terrorists Killing civillians is just another instance of losses in a war? what I mean, is people get outraged when terrorists kill civillians (with good reason) but when civillians are targeted by the army, somehow they get a pass.

just seems weird.


I don't believe Israel is deliberately targeting civilians hence the difference if you can give me proof of an Israeli army policy that is doing that not specific incidents I would change my opinion accordingly




actually, you're wrong there, the more deaths the more support Hezbolah will get, and believe me, there is marked between soem guy that says "well hezbolah has a right to fight"to a guy that says "okay dude*, once i get into the restaurant I'll pull the trigger mechanism and then...."


* I don't think that they say dude, but you never know.

I see we have different definitions of Hezbollah suppporters, I believe the first guy already a Hezbollah supporter, Hezbollah guerrillas are very well trained (thanks to Iran), some guy would have to travel to Iran to receive training they just don't hand him a gun and if Israel succeeds with it's stated claim and a international peace force or the Lebanese army deploys and controls the south it would be infinitely harder for the new guerillas to attack Israel...I hope I'm kind of clear




your example is again flawed, let's say I'm shooting at a guy, and he runs into a crowd, and instead of holding off, I keep picking off bystanders till i get a clear shot.

who's fault is it then?

Good point:) . What should Israel do? I believe I asked this earlier to someone else... do you believe having ground troops roll in would have been better?




again, Hezbolah was not attacked by the lebanese, because some sectors of lebanon where occupied by Israel, and Hezbolah ahd support there, so the government tolerated or perhaps even acknowledged them as a resistance force.
ok

how is this comparable to Israel bombing the **** out of Lebanon to get to Hezbolah? my point was...who did the lebanese attack? how is this comparable since they are being attacked now.

No part of Lebanon has been occupied by Israel since 2000, yet they were calling Hezbollah a legitimate resistance force since last year, so the government of Lebanon was housing said terrorists, how is this different from the Nato backed war in Afghanistan?


....I can't even imagine peace in the middle east at this point :(

[thedeadite]

wait...when the state of isreal was formed...weren't most of the residents living there at the time rounded up and put into camps??? i could have my history wrong here but that's how i remember it.

[Mr Sparkle]

Sounds like a plan. Lets round up the residents and put them into... hmmm... camps, maybe? :mad:


You're such a dimwit. I wish your banning was permanent.


LOL, yeah, I mean when they created Israel It's not like there was vast expanses of unnocuppied land.

[Mr Sparkle]

wait...when the state of isreal was formed...weren't most of the residents living there at the time rounded up and put into camps??? i could have my history wrong here but that's how i remember it.


no no no, those where refugee camps! those are FUN!!!!!

[Topdawg]

Israel is evil.

[Mr Sparkle]

I don't believe Israel is deliberately targeting civilians hence the difference if you can give me proof of an Israeli army policy that is doing that not specific incidents I would change my opinion accordingly

they are targeting civillian areas, wether it's their "policy"or not is irrelevant.
unless the Israeli army is retarded (which you have stated as pretty implausible) they KNOW that they will kill civillians with their strikes.

I see we have different definitions of Hezbollah suppporters, I believe the first guy already a Hezbollah supporter, Hezbollah guerrillas are very well trained (thanks to Iran), some guy would have to travel to Iran to receive training they just don't hand him a gun and if Israel succeeds with it's stated claim and a international peace force or the Lebanese army deploys and controls the south it would be infinitely harder for the new guerillas to attack Israel...I hope I'm kind of clear

and strikes are bound to turn suporters into guerrillas, complicating the matter.


Good point:) . What should Israel do? I believe I asked this earlier to someone else... do you believe having ground troops roll in would have been better?

I would've negotiated for the release of 2 military prisoners in exchange perhaps for women prisoners, or something like that, because I think that 2 israeli lives aren't greater or more valuable than 200 lebanese lives.


but I'm wacky like that.

No part of Lebanon has been occupied by Israel since 2000, yet they were calling Hezbollah a legitimate resistance force since last year, so the government of Lebanon was housing said terrorists, how is this different from the Nato backed war in Afghanistan?

I don't see how this applies to your initial statement.
you're saying that If Lebanon didn't want to get the **** kicked out of it and have hundreds of it's people dead it should've disolved Hezbolah?
WTF? that sound impossibly nutty.
they can call Hezbolah "god's messengers"for all I care. it doesn't matter, it's not carte blanche for killing Lebanese Citizens.
in the end
If Kidnapping 2 Israeli soldiers is worth Killing 2000 lebanese civillian lives, how many Israeli lives do you think the lebanese should be able to "Justifiably"end, after the conflict?

[InsaneMembrane]

they are targeting civillian areas, wether it's their "policy"or not is irrelevant.
unless the Israeli army is retarded (which you have stated as pretty implausible) they KNOW that they will kill civillians with their strikes.

Fair enough, I'm rethinking some positions in this issue, since you've argued well :up:


and strikes are bound to turn suporters into guerrillas, complicating the matter.

But from an Israeli perspective if their borders are "safe" ...those new guerillas are pretty ineffictive




I would've negotiated for the release of 2 military prisoners in exchange perhaps for women prisoners, or something like that, because I think that 2 israeli lives aren't greater or more valuable than 200 lebanese lives.


but I'm wacky like that.

But what if those women prisoners were would be suicide bombers, they should be released into Palestine?...I say Palestine because Israel has four lebanese prisoners in their jails none of them women..I do think Israel should starting trying (sp?) or releasing them though...So Hezbollah comes off unscathed in this whole thing, I don't think that's right either. Or are you saying that Israel should release two of their prisoners for the two soldiers....


I don't see how this applies to your initial statement.
you're saying that If Lebanon didn't want to get the **** kicked out of it and have hundreds of it's people dead it should've disolved Hezbolah?
WTF? that sound impossibly nutty.
they can call Hezbolah "god's messengers"for all I care. it doesn't matter, it's not carte blanche for killing Lebanese Citizens.
in the end
If Kidnapping 2 Israeli soldiers is worth Killing 2000 lebanese civillian lives, how many Israeli lives do you think the lebanese should be able to "Justifiably"end, after the conflict?

I thought you meant that Israel shouldn't have attacked Lebanon at all, I apologize for that misunderstanding but the Lebanese gov't enables Hezbollah I'm not saying it gives Israel carte blanche to kill civilians,

Lebanon Permits Iranian Weapons to Reach Hizbullah
10:15 Feb 26, '06

UN special envoy to the Mideast, Terje Larsen learned that on 31 January, at least one truck laden with arms originating in Iran was permitted to pass a Lebanese checkpoint and reach Hizbullah terrorists.

Lebanese government officials confirmed the accuracy of the report which stated the truck traveling from Syria was stopped but ultimately permitted to pass, after senior military officials gave the order to permit it to continue. It remains unclear how many trucks were included in the Iranian shipment and what weaponry was contained in them.

The international body issued a condemnation, stating the move by Lebanon was in violation of UN Resolution 1559 calling for the disarming of militias operating in Lebanon.

They have some responsiblity for Hezbollah actions...and the gov't should be punished.


I'm not even sure what we are arguing about anymore...oh the middle east

[Man-Thing]

I can agree with that.:up:
no you can't, so don't even pretend to.:rolleyes:

Don't claim to be neutral in this situation when almost every post you have made regarding it is Anti-Israel.

[Danger Mouse]

My Middle Eastern history is a bit rusty. Someone brought up a rather interesting point. Before WW2, who occupied that piece of land now known as Israel?

[Man-Thing]

nomads

[Corinthian™]

We should contact superman, make him lift the middle east and send it into space.. along with War Lord who is pretty much an empty shell and lacks a human soul.

And cass but just because I want to see him die

Hail Satan

[Man-Thing]

hey DM, where are you from?

[War Lord]

Wrong. The IRA destroyed all of their weapons and ceased all criminal activity because it was required by the Good Friday Agreement...

An agreement come to thanks to years of hard work by good people on both sides.

THAT is how you stop terrorism.

The only condition Hezbollah and their sister terrorist organizations want is the total and absolute destruction of Israel. What could Israel possibly give that would appease that level of malevolence?

If I wanted you dead, dead, dead, and nothing less than dead, what kind of bargain could you possibly strike with me that would appease me, other than your death (and hopefully a painful, torturous one at that)?

[War Lord]

Then they have attrocious aim.

The buildings are very close together and the streets are narrow. If you want Israel to be more careful, than support their ability to invade Lebanon and such mistakes will immediately be minimized.

[War Lord]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20060724/ljd060724.gif

If that what it takes.

[Danger Mouse]

hey DM, where are you from?
superherohype.com

nomads
Nope. Did a bit of reading. Seems that until 1917, that piece of land was called Palestine under the governance of the Ottoman Empire, a bunch of Muslims from Turkey. Then in 1917, the Brits chased off the Ottomans and took control. It was still called Palestine. In the 1920s and the 1930s, Muslim Palestines were still the majority with Jews and Christians as the minorities. Then, after WW2, after feeling sorry for the Jews, the Brits, with the backing/blessings/insistence of the US, decided to remove the Muslim Palestinian populace into refugee camps and give the land to the Jews and call it Israel.

So, for hundreds of years, until 1917, that land was the sovereign land of Palestine. When it was taken away, after having been there for hundreds of years, no one said anything. But now everyone is saying "you can't take Israel away coz they've been there for 60 years".

Okay.

[War Lord]

what I do find is you brushing off the beach massacre like it didn't even happen.

what up yo? you don't seem to grasp the fact that evil is always evil, even when Israelis are doing it.

I don't brush it off, but when I googled it, I didn't get any real information other than from the usual left wing or anti-semitic sites, so I can't really take the story too seriously.

Perhaps I had found an indepth story from a reasonably reliable site, I could take it more seriously.

[War Lord]

4 U.N. Observers Die in Israeli Airstrike

BEIRUT, Lebanon - An Israeli bomb destroyed a U.N. observer post on the border in southern Lebanon, killing two peacekeepers and leaving two others feared dead in what appeared to be a deliberate strike, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said.

The bomb made a direct hit on the building and shelter of the observer post in the town of Khiyam near the eastern end of the border with Israel, said Milos Struger, spokesman for the U.N. peacekeeping force in Lebanon known as UNIFIL.

Annan issued a statement saying two U.N. military observers were killed with two more feared dead. Earlier, U.S. Ambassador John Bolton said the Security Council was informed that four officers were killed.

Story continues below ↓
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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These deaths brought to you in part by; "Boeing: Delivering Freedom One Airstrike at a Time."

--------------

Ambassador denies post intentionally targeted
Israel's U.N. Ambassador Dan Gillerman expressed his "deep regret" for the deaths and denied the post was intentionally targeted.

Rescue workers were trying to clear the rubble, but Israeli firing "continued even during the rescue operation," Struger said.

U.N. officials said four observers were in the post when the bomb hit, and the building had been destroyed. Two bodies had been recovered and two were unaccounted for, apparently still in the rubble. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The victims included observers from Austria, a Canada, China and Finland, U.N. and Lebanese military officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release the information to the media. It was not immediately known which were confirmed dead.


As reports of the attack emerged, Annan rushed out of a hotel in Rome following a dinner with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora.

"I am shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting by Israeli Defense Forces of a U.N. Observer post in southern Lebanon," Annan said in the statement.

Annan said in his statement that the post had been there for a long time and was marked clearly, and was hit despite assurances from Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that U.N. positions would not be attacked.

"I call on the government of Israel to conduct a full investigation into this very disturbing incident and demand that any further attack on U.N. positions and personnel must stop," Annan said in the statement.

Gillerman called the assertions "premature and erroneous."

"I am shocked and deeply distressed by the hasty statement of the secretary-general, insinuating that Israel has deliberately targeted the U.N. post," he said.

He said Israel would investigate the bombing. "We do not have yet information what caused this death: it could be the IDF (Israel's military) it could be Hezbollah," he said.

Since Israel launched a massive military offensive against Lebanon and Hezbollah guerrillas July 12, an international civilian employee working with UNIFIL and his wife have been killed in the crossfire between Israeli forces and Hezbollah guerrillas in the southern port city of Tyre.

Five UNIFIL soldiers and one military observer have also been wounded, Struger said.

Which is why you don't send peacekeepers into areas that have no peace to keep.

[War Lord]

This was a nice touch. :up:

Israel is out of hand, now. They need to be reigned in.

jag

You reign in Israel now and you've only delayed more war in the near future. If you want to end it, than one side has to unquestionably win.

[Phaser]

Sounds like a plan. Lets round up the residents and put them into... hmmm... camps, maybe? :mad:

Umm, that's exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestenians right now, what with demolishing houses, chasing them out of their homes and into refugee camps.

[War Lord]

Israel has got to go. Call me an anti-Semite, whatever, I have nothing against the jewish people, but there will never be peace in the Middle-East as long as the state of Israel continues to exist. You know that I'm right about this.

In which case, we shouldn't be limiting Israel's response.

Let them have some real fun and let's see what they can do.

[kainedamo]

I don't brush it off, but when I googled it, I didn't get any real information other than from the usual left wing or anti-semitic sites, so I can't really take the story too seriously.

Perhaps I had found an indepth story from a reasonably reliable site, I could take it more seriously.

I saw it on the news myself, on every channel the day it happened. I too have difficulty finding information on the net about it however.

But it did happen. Just a couple of weeks or so before Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers, Israel shelled a beach. Something like 15 people died. Israel had absolutely no reason to do it. It's not something just made up by leftist media, IT HAPPENED!

The fact that it's so difficult to find information on it makes the right wing media look more suspicious if you ask me. But then again, I'm not a paranoid wackjob that has to go around accusing the media of leaning one way or another to justify my own arguments.

[War Lord]

I saw it on the news myself, on every channel the day it happened. I too have difficulty finding information on the net about it however.

But it did happen. Just a couple of weeks or so before Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers, Israel shelled a beach. Something like 15 people died. Israel had absolutely no reason to do it. It's not something just made up by leftist media, IT HAPPENED!

The fact that it's so difficult to find information on it makes the right wing media look more suspicious if you ask me.

Or the left-wing media could be blowing a minor event out of proportion.

It's still irrelevant because it happened in Gaza, which is not in Lebanon.

[kainedamo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5065008.stm

I believe that's the beach massacre there.

[Phaser]

If that what it takes.

Oh God, please be kidding.

[War Lord]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5065008.stm

I believe that's the beach massacre there.

One thing in the story.

1. For many months, the Israelis have been pounding away at open areas such as fields and orchards in an effort to prevent Palestinian militants using them to fire their home-made missiles into nearby Israeli territory.

In other words, Hamas had been firing into Israel territory first.

[kainedamo]

One thing in the story.

1. For many months, the Israelis have been pounding away at open areas such as fields and orchards in an effort to prevent Palestinian militants using them to fire their home-made missiles into nearby Israeli territory.

In other words, Hamas had been firing into Israel territory first.

Maybe this sentence means nothing to you...

The group has been observing a self-imposed ceasefire for more than a year.

War Lord, I honestly don't think any news story would be good enough for you. God himself could come to you and tell you that Israel have behaved like monsters and you wouldn't believe him.

[War Lord]

Oh God, please be kidding.

It was a response to Superman's posting of the cartoon.

However, when it comes to war, half-way measures never work. One side has to admit defeat before it's really over.

If France and Britain met Hitler's war machine in the Rhineland during the mid to late 1930's, it's quite likely that we would have been spared WWII.

For Israel to pull out now, is to only ensure that Hezbollah gets to re-arm and re-attack and the next conflict could end up much larger than it is right now.

[War Lord]

Maybe this sentence means nothing to you...

The group has been observing a self-imposed ceasefire for more than a year.

War Lord, I honestly don't think any news story would be good enough for you. God himself could come to you and tell you that Israel have behaved like monsters and you wouldn't believe him.

If you read the complete story, there really wasn't a complete ceasefire, just tit-for-tat.

[Cyma]

I would've negotiated for the release of 2 military prisoners in exchange perhaps for women prisoners, or something like that, because I think that 2 israeli lives aren't greater or more valuable than 200 lebanese lives.
Now the death toll is close to 400.

400 Lebanese people = 2 Israeli soldiers.

Hmm….Attacking a whole country for 2 soldiers? And the justification is that Israel has a right to defend itself? Not surprised. US did the same thing after 9/11 quoting it as the ‘war against terror.’ And, as usual, the rest of the world is just silently watching. Don’t blame them since helping would mean they get attacked as well: ‘If you’re not with us, then you’re against us.’

[kainedamo]

If you read the complete story, there really wasn't a complete ceasefire, just tit-for-tat.


If you say so.

Can we please just admit that Israel sometimes go too far?? Please God, from human to human, can we agree on that much??

[Spade]

If you say so.

Can we please just admit that Israel sometimes go too far?? Please God, from human to human, can we agree on that much??

Self-preservation is not 'going too far'. Now please stop crying out that inane plea every other post.

[Phaser]

It was a response to Superman's posting of the cartoon.

However, when it comes to war, half-way measures never work. One side has to admit defeat before it's really over.

For Israel to pull out now, is to only ensure that Hezbollah gets to re-arm and re-attack and the next conflict could end up much larger than it is right now.

And for Israel to continue doing what it is now, is only to ensure Hezbollah gets more and more recruits as 10 times more innocents get slaughtered than Hezbollah fighters. Israel terrorizing innocents using blunt force will only serve to strengthen the numbers of both their enemies and their enemy's sympathizers.

Oh and the cartoon posted by Superman shows the ridiculous irony and the logical paradox in using terror to fight terrorism, killing innocents to save innocents.

[War Lord]

If you say so.

Can we please just admit that Israel sometimes go too far?? Please God, from human to human, can we agree on that much??

I'd agree with you if the tit-for-tat policy was working, which it was not because there wasn't an end in sight.

[kainedamo]

Self-preservation is not 'going too far'. Now please stop crying out that inane plea every other post.

In what warped reality are you living in? Two Israeli soldiers. TWO!!

Palestine and Lebanon have a right to self-preservation too.

[Spade]

And for Israel to continue doing what it is now, is only to ensure Hezbollah gets more and more recruits as 10 times more innocents get slaughtered than Hezbollah fighters. Israel terrorizing innocents using blunt force will only serve to strengthen the numbers of both their enemies and their enemy's sympathizers.

This has been going on for years, and the "step back and let all attacks come our way in hopes that they'll realize their evil, evil ways" approach has yet to work. It's like War Lord said- you fight a half-hearted war, you get half-hearted results which always come back to haunt you.

[War Lord]

And for Israel to continue doing what it is now, is only to ensure Hezbollah gets more and more recruits as 10 times more innocents get slaughtered than Hezbollah fighters. Israel terrorizing innocents using blunt force will only serve to strengthen the numbers of both their enemies and their enemy's sympathizers.

If more want to sign up, than more will just get mowed down.

Again, unless you had an actual solution here, one that would get Hezbollah and Hamas and Fatah and the rest of them to stop trying to take out Israel, I can't feel sorry for them.

[War Lord]

In what warped reality are you living in? Two Israeli soldiers. TWO!!

Palestine and Lebanon have a right to self-preservation too.

Edit.

[War Lord]

In what warped reality are you living in? Two Israeli soldiers. TWO!!

Palestine and Lebanon have a right to self-preservation too.

All Palestine has to do is make peace with Israel and recognize her existence.

All Lebanon has to do is kick out Hezbollah and the war is over.

[War Lord]

This has been going on for years, and the "step back and let all attacks come our way in hopes that they'll realize their evil, evil ways" approach has yet to work. It's like War Lord said- you fight a half-hearted war, you get half-hearted results which always come back to haunt you.

Worse

You stop small wars and you usually end up with larger ones as a result.

[Spade]

In what warped reality are you living in? Two Israeli soldiers. TWO!!

Palestine and Lebanon have a right to self-preservation too.

Not when the Palestinian Authority is condoning the murder of innocent children every day as retaliation for attacks they bring upon themselves.

[kainedamo]

All Palestine has to do is make peace with Israel and recognize her existence.

All Lebanon has to do is kick out Hezbollah and the war is over.

All Israel has to do is share power and give the Palestinians a fair slice.

[kainedamo]

Not when the Palestinian Authority is condoning the murder of innocent children every day as retaliation for attacks they bring upon themselves.


Again, you are living in one crazy warped reality. Who is it that's been killing hundreds of people for the last few weeks???

[Spade]

All Israel has to do is share power and give the Palestinians a fair slice.

Let me repeat this once more- the UN put them there in the first place. Civil issues over who gets what say in the government and day-to-day affairs should have been solved by the 'all-powerful ones' way back when this was first being concocted.

Again, you are living in one crazy warped reality. Who is it that's been killing hundreds of people for the last few weeks???

Give me one point at which these attacks have been unwarranted or intentionally issued to kill civilians and I'll address that with a proper answer.

[War Lord]

All Israel has to do is share power and give the Palestinians a fair slice.

Why would a sovereign country share her internal power with another sovereign (and hostile) country?

The Palestineans largely have what they need to set up a peaceful country right beside Israel if they so choose.

[Man-Thing]

superherohype.com


Nope. Did a bit of reading. Seems that until 1917, that piece of land was called Palestine under the governance of the Ottoman Empire, a bunch of Muslims from Turkey. Then in 1917, the Brits chased off the Ottomans and took control. It was still called Palestine. In the 1920s and the 1930s, Muslim Palestines were still the majority with Jews and Christians as the minorities. Then, after WW2, after feeling sorry for the Jews, the Brits, with the backing/blessings/insistence of the US, decided to remove the Muslim Palestinian populace into refugee camps and give the land to the Jews and call it Israel.

So, for hundreds of years, until 1917, that land was the sovereign land of Palestine. When it was taken away, after having been there for hundreds of years, no one said anything. But now everyone is saying "you can't take Israel away coz they've been there for 60 years".

Okay.

and that does not negate the fact that the people who lived there were infact nomads aka Palestinians

[kainedamo]

Don't you know that the Gaza strip is the most densely populated area in the world???

It really, REALLY REALLY REALLY, sucks to be a Palestinian.

I don't want to argue with either of you anymore about this subject. It's clear that you will support Israel no matter what.

NEWSFLASH: Israeli soldiers kill the Pope!

War Lord: :up:

[Phaser]

This has been going on for years, and the "step back and let all attacks come our way in hopes that they'll realize their evil, evil ways" approach has yet to work. It's like War Lord said- you fight a half-hearted war, you get half-hearted results which always come back to haunt you.

That's not what I was talking about. Don't put words in my mouth. I was questioning the Israeli's ridiculous tactic of targeting civilians under the guise of fighting against Hezbollah. Both you and War Lord always keep using this asinine excuse of "they're fighting a war" as an attempt to justify every single atrocity committed by the Israelis and it is sickening.

[Phaser]

If more want to sign up, than more will just get mowed down.

And you honestly think those new recruits are just cannon-fodder for Israeli tanks and helicopters? Surely, you can't be THAT naive. But then again, it's you.

Again, unless you had an actual solution here, one that would get Hezbollah and Hamas and Fatah and the rest of them to stop trying to take out Israel, I can't feel sorry for them.

And I can't feel sorry for the Israelis, who have just as much disregard for innocent lives as the "terrorists" they claim to be fighting. Bloody hypocrites.

[Spade]

That's not what I was talking about. Don't put words in my mouth. I was questioning the Israeli's ridiculous tactic of targeting civilians under the guise of fighting against Hezbollah. Both you and War Lord always keep using this asinine excuse of "they're fighting a war" as an attempt to justify every single atrocity committed by the Israelis and it is sickening.

We used that same justification in WW2, and you don't seem to be speaking in any of the Axis languages at this moment. It must've worked. So why are you complaining?

[Phaser]

Give me one point at which these attacks have been unwarranted or intentionally issued to kill civilians and I'll address that with a proper answer.

If Israel's attacks are truly not intended to kill civilians, in the case of which still more than 300 civilians and less than 30 Hezbollah fighters get killed anyway, then the Israeli army is nothing but a bunch of incompetent, rowdy jackasses.

I mean yeah, dropping bombs in residential compounds and then seeing civilian casualties is just so...astonishing. :rolleyes:

[Danger Mouse]

All Palestine has to do is make peace with Israel and recognize her existence.

All Lebanon has to do is kick out Hezbollah and the war is over.
And until that is achieved, are you declaring that every single fiber of humanity in you says it's okay to obliterate hundreds of civilians in which a few rag-tag Hizbollah soldiers are hiding amongst?

[kainedamo]

But Phaser... it's completely justifiable!! Don't you know that God favours the Jews??

[Spade]

If Israel's attacks are truly not intended to kill civilians, in the case of which still more than 300 civilians and less than 30 Hezbollah fighters get killed anyway, then the Israeli army is nothing but a bunch of incompetent, rowdy jackasses.

I mean yeah, dropping bombs in residential compounds and then seeing civilian casualties is just so...astonishing. :rolleyes:

It's apparently astonishing to you, as you've brought it up enough for it to be tiresome. You can't defend yourself against an enemy in a war like this with absolutely no civilian casualties- in any real war worth meriting the phrase, actually. If what you admonish to be hypocrisy (Israel defending itself) is what Israel is engaging it, it needs to be more hypocritical than it currently is.

But Phaser... it's completely justifiable!! Don't you know that God favours the Jews??

Read the Bible- He calls the Jews his favored people and the Palestinians the bastard children of Ishmael. Do your research before you start bringing in deities to contort your own feeble attempt at sarcasm.

[Phaser]

We used that same justification in WW2, and you don't seem to be speaking in any of the Axis languages at this moment. It must've worked. So why are you complaining?

Please, do refrain from making such baseless and unintelligent assumption when you don't have a ****ing clue as to which country I am from.

[Spade]

Please, do refrain from making such baseless and unintelligent assumption when you don't have a ****ing clue as to which country I am from.

You completely missed the point of my post- you are currently writing in English. That is not an Axis-related language. For all your pompous replies you still seem to respond in English, a Allied-related language.

[Phaser]

It's apparently astonishing to you, as you've brought it up enough for it to be tiresome. You can't defend yourself against an enemy in a war like this with absolutely no civilian casualties- in any real war worth meriting the phrase, actually. If what you admonish to be hypocrisy (Israel defending itself) is what Israel is engaging it, it needs to be more hypocritical than it currently is.

It's not just the question of civilian casualties that I am raising here, it's the point of civilian casualties being more than 10 times greater than intended enemy casualties. It's not Israel's warfare that I'm criticizing, it's Israel's reckless warfare with ZERO concern for innocent lives is what, you know, bothers me.

[Spade]

It's not just the question of civilian casualties that I am raising here, it's the point of civilian casualties being more than 10 times greater than intended enemy casualties. It's not Israel's warfare that I'm criticizing, it's Israel's reckless warfare with ZERO concern for innocent lives is what, you know, bothers me.

You're still talking about civilian casualties and how they should exist, 2, 5 or 10 times greater nonwithstanding. The only thing that seems to be bothering you is that they are not allowing pre-emptive strikes or searching every crevice of the area to completely make sure that no innocent civilian will be killed in the impending assault.

[Phaser]

You completely missed the point of my post- you are currently writing in English. That is not an Axis-related language. For all your pompous replies you still seem to respond in English, a Allied-related language.

And you completely missed my point. I'm not writing in English because it's my language, but rather because it's the only option I have as a means for communicating on this board. I am fluent in four languages and can post in either of them if anyone on this board is competent enough to understand them.

[Phaser]

You're still talking about civilian casualties and how they should exist, 2, 5 or 10 times greater nonwithstanding. The only thing that seems to be bothering you is that they are not allowing pre-emptive strikes or searching every crevice of the area to completely make sure that no innocent civilian will be killed in the impending assault.

Are you blind? Can you even read? In an armed conflict, of course civilian casualties are inevitable. I never contested that fact. But when civilian casualties are many, many times greater you know there is something wrong. Like I said, either the Israelis are soaked neck-deep in incompetence or they don't give a **** about civilians, just like the "terrorists" they claim to be fighting against.

[Cyma]

And you completely missed my point. I'm not writing in English because it's my language, but rather because it's the only option I have as a means for communicating on this board. I am fluent in four languages and can post in either of them if anyone on this board is competent enough to understand them.

Off-topic but I'm curious...which four languages?

[Spade]

And you completely missed my point. I'm not writing in English because it's my language, but rather because it's the only option I have as a means for communicating on this board. I am fluent in four languages and can post in either of them if anyone on this board is competent enough to understand them.

Your responding to me in English and have the option to respond in whatever multitude of other languages you can because no one has stifled your ability to do so. If we would have been fighting in the way you propose for the Israelis half a century ago, we would have lost the war and your option wouldn't matter in this equation as it would have been stifled. And guess what? If the Israelis did as you command of them the same would happen to them. These are not rational men one can sit and have a cup of tea with.

Are you blind? Can you even read? In an armed conflict, of course civilian casualties are inevitable. I never contested that fact. But when civilian casualties are many, many times greater you know there is something wrong. Like I said, either the Israelis are soaked neck-deep in incompetence or they don't give a **** about civilians, just like the "terrorists" they claim to be fighting against.

Preconceive the latter, if that will further your tirade.

[Phaser]

Off-topic but I'm curious...which four languages?

English, Urdu, Arabic and Hindi. No points for guessing which country I am from.

[InsaneMembrane]

English, Urdu, Arabic and Hindi. No points for guessing which country I am from.

Can you read both Urdu and Hindi?

[Phaser]

Your responding to me in English and have the option to respond in whatever multitude of other languages you can because no one has stifled your ability to do so.

You're talking to me as if I should be "grateful" for speaking the English language. And anyone who knows me well enough on this board will vouch for it.

If we would have been fighting in the way you propose for the Israelis half a century ago, we would have lost the war and your option wouldn't matter in this equation as it would have been stifled. And guess what? If the Israelis did as you command of them the same would happen to them. These are not rational men one can sit and have a cup of tea with.

What the hell are you talking about? "If the Israelis did as you command of them"? You mean not engage in reckless warfare with no concern whatsoever for civilian lives?

[Phaser]

Can you read both Urdu and Hindi?

Yup. Both read and write.

[Danger Mouse]

English, Urdu, Arabic and Hindi. No points for guessing which country I am from.
Ah, the languages of Uhibbuki and Mere Mohabbat. :)

[kainedamo]

Read the Bible- He calls the Jews his favored people and the Palestinians the bastard children of Ishmael. Do your research before you start bringing in deities to contort your own feeble attempt at sarcasm.

Thanks for confirming that you are in fact a nutjob.

[Cyma]

English, Urdu, Arabic and Hindi. No points for guessing which country I am from.

:) Pakistan?

[Phaser]

Ah, the languages of Uhibbuki and Mere Mohabbat. :)

Anyone on this board as much as calls me a hopeless romantic and I'll go shotgun on their azz. :marv:

Oh "mere mohabbat" is an incorrect phrase. ;)

[Phaser]

:) Pakistan?

Close, but no cigar.

[Spade]

Thanks for confirming that you are in fact a nutjob.

You were acting as though that was inserted by some ulterior force. I gave you a citation from the Bible itself, a source material you were trying to blur one of the messages of.

Your daily dose of logic has now been delivered. Have a nice day.

[Cyma]

Close, but no cigar.
Umm.....India? Saudi Arabia? Iran? :confused: If not then aap kidher kay hain?

[Danger Mouse]

Oh "mere mohabbat" is an incorrect phrase. ;)
Oh? Then what is?

[Phaser]

Oh? Then what is?

I believe the correct phrase would be "mere mehboob" or "mere dilbar" or "mere jaanam" or any one of the multitude of words we have for "darling" or "beloved".

Isn't it wierd that we're talking about love in a thread such as this?

[Phaser]

Umm.....India? Saudi Arabia? Iran? :confused: If not then aap kidher kay hain?


Is naacheez ka ta'alluq sar zameene Hindustan se hai.

If you can't understand that, I am from India. :up:

[Danger Mouse]

Isn't it wierd that we're talking about love in a thread such as this?
And the thread suddenly becomes less volatile. :)

[Cyma]

Is naacheez ka ta'alluq sar zameene Hindustan se hai.

If you can't understand that, I am from India. :up:
Lol, yaar ofcourse mujhai samaj mein arahi hai baat :) I just chat in English so much that I have a hard time writing Urdu using English alphabets :o

Surprised you can read and write the languages other than English and Hindi. For me it’s can read Arabic, but can’t understand and the opposite for Hindi, understand can’t read, lol :o

[logansoldcigar]

Now, we need to stop this here and now. al this comparing of ht e IRA and other terror groups around the world. Its an outrage. Its not like the IRA would have trained some of them, is it. (the ones that the CIA didnt train)

err anyway, back to the point.

They certainly didnt plant a chuffing a great bomb at a war memorial to go off on remembrance sunday, where there would be loads of kids attending services . at Enniskillen.

They certainly didnt put a bomb in a rubbish bin at Victoria station in 1991. One that went off at ab0ut 8 am. Londons busiest commuter station. in the middle of the rush hour.

they never put a 3000 ib bomb in manchester city centre in 1995 either.

or a car bomb in Omagh.

or the pub bo,mbings for which the Guildford 4 and the Birmingham 6 were fitted up

In fact they were not terrorists at all. they were freedom fighters struggling to free Ireland from the oppresion of the british. Or at least, thats what plenty of people in the USA thought, whilst they gave sinn fein money.

[Phaser]

Lol, yaar ofcourse mujhai samaj mein arahi hai baat :) I just chat in English so much that I have a hard time writing Urdu using English alphabets :o

Surprised you can read and write the languages other than English and Hindi. For me it’s can read Arabic, but can’t understand and the opposite for Hindi, understand can’t read, lol :o

You must be from Pakistan or Bangladesh, am I correct?

[Phaser]

And the thread suddenly becomes less volatile. :)

Tree-huggin pinko commies, t'is what we are. :mad::up:

[logansoldcigar]

I see. so because they lead a nomadic existence, with out a zip code, it meant we could do what we wanted?

i rather hoped we had moved on from ****ing over people like that after we ****ed over the native australians,native americans, the maori's, most of africa, and decided it was the 20th century.

guess i was wrong. there is absolutely no ****ing hope for the human race

[Cyma]

You must be from Pakistan or Bangladesh, am I correct?

Pakistan :up:

[logansoldcigar]

and as its on topic, an Israeli human rights group is claiming that Israel is using civilians as Human shields.

Not for the first time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5212870.stm

I suppose some people will justify this.

[Man-Thing]

Israel Is Within Its Rights
By David B. Rivkin Jr. and Lee A. Casey
Wednesday, July 26, 2006; Page A17

Israel's operations against Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza have been widely condemned in Europe, the Arab world and at the United Nations as violations of international law. Some of the critics seem to deny that Israel has any legitimate right to use force. Others, while acknowledging its right to self-defense, nevertheless regard its exercise in these cases as illegal. Israel's alleged offenses include treating mere "terrorist" attacks as an excuse to attack Lebanon, using disproportionate force, causing excessive civilian casualties and refusing to contemplate an immediate cease-fire.

In fact, Israel's conduct has been fully compliant with the applicable norms of international law.

The primary claim by Israel's critics is that it used force disproportionately in response to Hezbollah's initial attack against Israeli soldiers, eight of whom were killed and two captured. The underlying assumption appears to be that Israel should have treated these provocations as terrorist acts and limited its response accordingly, rather than as justifications for a full-scale attack on Lebanese territory.

But in determining the existence of a legitimate casus belli , a state is entitled to consider the entire context of the threat it faces. Hezbollah is not simply a terrorist gang, like Germany's Baader-Meinhof or Italy's Red Brigades. It is a substantial political and military organization that has more than 12,000 short- and medium-range rockets and that has operated freely on Lebanese territory for many years, periodically launching attacks against Israel. Its stated goal is Israel's destruction, and it is the client of a major regional power -- Iran -- whose government appears dedicated to the same goal.
Moreover, although international law requires a state to have a lawful reason to use force -- such as self-defense -- it does not mandate that a state limit its military response to "tit for tat" actions. Once a country has suffered an armed attack, it is entitled to identify the source of that attack and to eliminate its adversary's ability to attack again. Its actions must be consistent with otherwise applicable international norms, but it is not required to accept a limited conflict that fails to meet and resolve the danger it faces.

That Lebanon has suffered from Israel's actions does not change the legal rules involved. No state has the right to permit a foreign military force to use its territory to launch attacks against another country. Indeed, every country has an obligation to control its own territory. Lebanon's failure (or refusal) to expel Hezbollah would in and of itself have been a legitimate cause for Israeli military action. It was the Taliban's sheltering of al-Qaeda that was the basis of the U.S. attack on Afghanistan in 2001. And, although the current Lebanese government is certainly more democratic than the feudalistic Taliban, democratic credentials cannot insulate a state from responsibility for controlling its territory.

The specific aspects of Israel's military operations in Lebanon and Gaza have also been condemned as being disproportionate and as thereby violating the laws of war. Although there is some grim humor in the spectacle of Russian President Vladimir Putin, whose troops have ravaged Chechnya, criticizing Israel for a "disproportionate" use of force, the claims -- including dark warnings from Louise Arbour, U.N. high commissioner for human rights, about "war crimes" liability for Israel's leaders -- are without merit.

An army must always eschew deliberate attacks on civilians and consider whether the military advantage to be gained from an operation is sufficiently important to justify potential collateral damage to civilians. But this does not mean that installations and infrastructure, such as airports, bridges and the power grid, cannot be legally attacked. These are all dual-use targets -- having a civilian character but also clear military value. Indeed, in NATO's 1999 war against Serbia, exactly the same set of targets was attacked -- with the agreement and approval of the European governments involved. In the current conflict, Israel's primary military purpose in attacking these targets appears to be to cut Hezbollah's supply lines, not to punish Lebanon.
Similarly, the occurrence of civilian casualties, or the fact that more Lebanese civilians have died than Israelis, does not prove that Israel has used disproportionate force. The law forbids an operation only if the hoped-for military benefit would be clearly disproportionate to the likely injury to the civilian population. Proportionality, however, must be calculated in the context of the entire conflict, and any civilian lives lost must be balanced against civilian lives saved.

Unfortunately, heavy civilian casualties are the inherent and inevitable result of the type of asymmetric warfare deliberately waged by Hezbollah and similar groups. They intentionally operate from civilian areas, both to protect their military capabilities from attack and to increase civilian deaths, which can then be trumpeted for propaganda purposes. But the presence of a large civilian population does not immunize Hezbollah or Hamas forces from attack. Responsibility for any additional civilian casualties must be attributed to those groups, not to Israel. The adoption of any other rule would reward and encourage the illegal behavior of such "unlawful" combatants, which would simply result in more danger to innocent civilians in the future.

Israel may legally seek victory in Lebanon, even if it requires a combination of ground and air operations, takes weeks to accomplish and results in civilian casualties. It is under no obligation to agree to an early cease-fire unless the terms of that agreement would vindicate its legitimate war aims: the security of its population from attack.

The legal rights Israel is exercising to defend itself today are the very same legal rights on which the United States must rely in the war on terrorism. Attempts to revise the traditional laws of war -- moving toward a law-enforcement paradigm -- so that law-abiding states cannot effectively protect their own populations from attack or even defend their territory from armed incursion are not humanitarian advances. They simply make the world safer for those who reject any notion of law in war.

[Lone]

Israel needs to leave the ME.

If you let a hobo seek shelter in your estate and then they kill your family members and kick you off your land, you'd be mighty pissed and out for blood too...

The holocaust was a horrible thing but don't let that blind your assessment of the situation over there...

[Man-Thing]

Israel needs to leave the ME.

If you let a hobo seek shelter in your estate and then they kill your family members and kick you off your land, you'd be mighty pissed and out for blood too...

The holocaust was a horrible thing but don't let that blind your assessment of the situation over there...

Nice way to associate Israel with hobos, you might as well called them rats.

The situation over can easily be summed up best with this picture...

http://www.targetofopportunity.com/jewish_occupation.gif

[TheSumOfGod]

http://www.targetofopportunity.com/jewish_occupation.gif

That picture doesn't take into account Israel's nuclear arsenal and US backing. :o

[Zaed]

Israel and the Muslims are neither the villains or the good guys in this tragic war.

I have one question though... If by some chance Israel does uproot and leave the Middle East will that stop terrorism? I think everyone knows the answer to that...

This war is NOT about land. If you think so you are deluded.

[Sinful.games]

you might as well called them rats.


yea that expression fits them better

**** israel

[TheSumOfGod]

Israel has the Creator of the Universe and the New Roman Empire on it's side. Israel laughs at your disapproval.

[Sinful.games]

Israel has the Creator of the Universe and the New Roman Empire on it's side. Israel laughs at your disapproval.

*shaking with fear*

[TheSumOfGod]

That was sarcasm, btw.

Personally, I find it ironic that those who were once persecuted by fascists are now the ones acting like fascists. Heh.

[Sinful.games]

That was sarcasm, btw.

Personally, I find it ironic that those who were once persecuted by fascists are now the ones acting like fascists. Heh.


yea I was pretty sarcastic also

I dont usually engage in political debates I dont have the energy or obsession for that but this **** is really bugging me out...people who suffered so much (jews, from israel or rest of the world) are now showing their power and might over some little country who fight gunfire with stones....thats ****ing bullying and it sucks big time time to take responsibility and take action....but the biggest pussys are europe, africa, australia and asia none of them ****s dare to say anything becouse they dont want to anger the big giant (usa)

[Sinful.games]

and dont mind pointing out the spelling and grammar misstakes I made I wont give a **** anyway

[TheSumOfGod]

Look at his spelling and grammar mistakes! OMG! ;)

[Wilhelm-Scream]

rapists, child molesters, racists, con artists, peeping toms, murderers, people who don't give a s*** about spelling and grammar

[jaguarr]

rapists, child molesters, racists, con artists, peeping toms, murderers, people who don't give a s*** about spelling and grammar

:mad: *tests contacts on the electric chair* :mad:

jag

[The Overlord]

Umm, that's exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestenians right now, what with demolishing houses, chasing them out of their homes and into refugee camps.

If the Palestinians used some Gandhi style tactics to get what they want and stopped trying to destroy a country that is a million times more powerful then them, they can actually get their own nation state, rather than being in a constant state of war.

[Kaleb]

I've never understood this notion of "illegal weapons".
The weapons of War are for killing people.
You use whatever kills people well.
:confused:
well I see someone has posted what I was ganna post :o

[War Lord]

And you honestly think those new recruits are just cannon-fodder for Israeli tanks and helicopters? Surely, you can't be THAT naive. But then again, it's you.

And I can't feel sorry for the Israelis, who have just as much disregard for innocent lives as the "terrorists" they claim to be fighting. Bloody hypocrites.

That's how the terrorist leadership looks at the new recruits. You'll notice that none of the groups leaders are using their own kids to sacrifice themselves, just everybody else.

Israel learned a long time ago that they'd be condemned for their actions, no matter what their actions were, so it's not that big a deal with them.

[War Lord]

And until that is achieved, are you declaring that every single fiber of humanity in you says it's okay to obliterate hundreds of civilians in which a few rag-tag Hizbollah soldiers are hiding amongst?

I believe, with every fibre of my being, that a country's responsibility is to its own citizenry. If another country allows a terrorist organization within its borders to attack another country, the host country is as responsible had it done the attack itself and must take responsibility for it.

[War Lord]

But Phaser... it's completely justifiable!! Don't you know that God favours the Jews??

That's irrelevant.

My response would be exactly the same had it involved any other two countries.

[War Lord]

You're still talking about civilian casualties and how they should exist, 2, 5 or 10 times greater nonwithstanding. The only thing that seems to be bothering you is that they are not allowing pre-emptive strikes or searching every crevice of the area to completely make sure that no innocent civilian will be killed in the impending assault.

If you don't like the high civilian casualities, simply get the terrorist organizations and host countries to obey the Geneva convention.

[Mr Sparkle]

I don't brush it off, but when I googled it, I didn't get any real information other than from the usual left wing or anti-semitic sites, so I can't really take the story too seriously.

Perhaps I had found an indepth story from a reasonably reliable site, I could take it more seriously.

LOL, you did no such thing, if you google it, one of the first 5 links is to CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/09/mideast/)!!!!! :rolleyes:x a billion

[War Lord]

LOL, you did no such thing, if you google it, one of the first 5 links is to CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/09/mideast/)!!!!! :rolleyes:x a billion

So you say.

http://www.ask.com/web?q=gaza+beach+massacre&qsrc=0&o=0&l=dir

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=gaza+beach+massacre&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

[The Overlord]

All Israel has to do is share power and give the Palestinians a fair slice.

If the Palestinians would stop attacking Israeli civilians and start using Gandhi style tactics, then maybe they would get a fair slice.

[Childlike Wild]

Israel learned a long time ago that they'd be condemned for their actions, no matter what their actions were, so it's not that big a deal with them.
I had typed basically the same thing in a much longer post, but then I figured that any response I got would be unsatisfactory.

:up: though.

[Mr Sparkle]

So you say.

http://www.ask.com/web?q=gaza+beach+massacre&qsrc=0&o=0&l=dir

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=gaza+beach+massacre&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

LOL

well anyway, now that you have the CNN article...what of it? I see you went around that little bit of info.




http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=ISRAEL+beach+ATTACK&btnG=Search&meta=

[The Overlord]

Hezbollah is being stupid here, they already got all they could ever achieve when Israel left Lebanon in 2000, what reason do they have to go after Israel now that they left in 2000? All they are doing is needlessly provoking the Israelis, who may reoccuppy Lebanon to destroy Hezbollah. Hezbollah is just being counter productive now.

[maxwell's demon]

I believe, with every fibre of my being, that a country's responsibility is to its own citizenry. If another country allows a terrorist organization within its borders to attack another country, the host country is as responsible had it done the attack itself and must take responsibility for it.


so.....ok. if all the terrorists we're "harboring" within our country...if they go up and attack Canada, or elsewhere, if they plot and plan attacks all over the world while hiding out here in america--as they probably already have-- the rest of the world will have EVERY justification to attack us here the U.S.? right?

Or if terrorists who happen to live in Canada right now, if they attack us here in the U.S., and we bomb the town where you live in retaliation, you're ok with that? with every fibre of your being?

[War Lord]

LOL

well anyway, now that you have the CNN article...what of it? I see you went around that little bit of info.




http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=ISRAEL+beach+ATTACK&btnG=Search&meta=

Again, it's irrelevant because the battle isn't between Israel and Hamas, but Israel and Hezbollah.

Unless you're willing to make the arguement that these separate terrorist groups really aren't all that separate but share one common goal of destroying Israel.

[War Lord]

so.....ok. if all the terrorists we're "harboring" within our country...if they go up and attack Canada, or elsewhere, if they plot and plan attacks all over the world while hiding out here in america--as they probably already have-- the rest of the world will have EVERY justification to attack us here the U.S.? right?

Or if terrorists who happen to live in Canada right now, if they attack us here in the U.S., and we bomb the town where you live in retaliation, you're ok with that? with every fibre of your being?

If a country has terrorists within their midst and it's obvious that the country isn't tackling the problem, than yes it's as if the country is responsible.

Lebanon, if it didn't want Hezbollah within their midst could have asked a dozen or more countries for help in getting rid of them.

[Mr Sparkle]

Again, it's irrelevant because the battle isn't between Israel and Hamas, but Israel and Hezbollah.

Unless you're willing to make the arguement that these separate terrorist groups really aren't all that separate but share one common goal of destroying Israel.


actually it's quite relevant, it shows that Israel is not some innocent little victim.
LOL, you try to dodge everything man, didn't you say you'd reconsider your position if a refutable site spoke of this attack.

well, there it is, start reconsidering.

oh, and answer Maxwell's question will you?:)

[The Overlord]

If a country has terrorists within their midst and it's obvious that the country isn't tackling the problem, than yes it's as if the country is responsible.

Lebanon, if it didn't want Hezbollah within their midst could have asked a dozen or more countries for help in getting rid of them.

The problem is deeper then that, half the Lebanese army supports Hezbollah, it could cause a facture within the military itself, if the Leabanese government decided to go after Hezbollah.

[War Lord]

actually it's quite relevant, it shows that Israel is not some innocent little victim.
LOL, you try to dodge everything man, didn't you say you'd reconsider your position if a refutable site spoke of this attack.

well, there it is, start reconsidering.

oh, and answer Maxwell's question will you?:)

No reconsideration is necessary, because the article is quite clear that it was in response to a militant attack earlier.

I do find it interesting that you condemn Israel when it does such an attack, but nary a word is said when 20 Israelis die from a suicide bombing.

[maxwell's demon]

oh come ON, Jonty!

[War Lord]

The problem is deeper then that, half the Lebanese army supports Hezbollah, it could cause a facture within the military itself, if the Leabanese government decided to go after Hezbollah.

That doesn't matter, the Lebanese government is still responsible.

[bulok]

The problem is deeper then that, half the Lebanese army supports Hezbollah, it could cause a facture within the military itself, if the Leabanese government decided to go after Hezbollah.

Supporting Hezbollah and allowing them free reign in your country also makes you culpable for any actions they commit in your territory.

Either way, Israel is justified in their strikes.

[Mr Sparkle]

No reconsideration is necessary, because the article is quite clear that it was in response to a militant attack earlier.

I do find it interesting that you condemn Israel when it does such an attack, but nary a word is said when 20 Israelis die from a suicide bombing.


LOL it says no such thing! :):down

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An Israeli navy gunboat fired shells onto a northern Gaza beach Friday, killing at least seven people and prompting the military wing of Hamas to call off a 16-month-old cease-fire with Israel.
The Israel Defense Forces said it was firing on rocket-launching areas in Gaza after a militant attack earlier in the day. The target areas were believed to be uninhabited, a representative said.
A spokesman for Hamas, Sami Abu Zuhri, said it was "impossible to remain silent" after viewing "terrifying pictures of the women and children" on the beach.
"These demonstrations emphasize the necessity of the renewal of the struggle," he said. (Watch the aftermath on the beach -- :46 (javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/world/2006/06/09/sweeney.mideast.beach.attack.cnn','2006/06/16');))
A mass demonstration erupted in Gaza City, and protesters Friday evening were demanding revenge for recent attacks that include the beach shelling and Thursday's killing of a Hamas official in an Israeli missile strike.
Palestinians were picnicking when the Israeli shells slammed into the beach, Palestinian medical sources said. About 20 people were injured in the attack, Palestinian security sources said.
An apology was initially issued to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz in which the IDF said it "regretted the strike on innocents," but Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, the IDF's chief of general staff, later said the military is investigating the possibility that it was not naval artillery that struck the beach.
The IDF halted firing pending an investigation.
Haaretz quoted Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas as condemning the killings as a "bloody massacre."
Video footage from the beach showed ambulance workers carrying away injured people on stretchers and a young girl screaming for a parent.
Hamas has stuck to the cease-fire it announced in February 2005, but other groups did not sign on and have continued attacks against Israel. Earlier this year, Hamas won the Palestinian elections.
Hamas and its military wing Izzedine al Qassam has admitted responsibility for terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians as well as attacks against the Israeli military. Israel and the U.S. State Department consider Hamas a terrorist organization, though it also operates an extensive social services network in the territories.
Five militants also died earlier Friday in two Israeli strikes in Gaza, Palestinian sources said.
The beach is in the Palestinian village of Beit Lahya. The IDF said militants launched a Qassam rocket from the village that landed in Israel but caused no damage or casualties.
The militants got into a car, which the Israeli air force then attacked, according to the IDF. A large explosion followed, killing three people. The IDF said the blast was likely due to explosives in the car.
The three dead were members of the Popular Resistance Committees, a coalition of militant groups, Palestinian security sources said. Palestinian sources said the dead included two brothers and a cousin.
After the attack in Beit Lahya, a car was hit at Jabalya refuge camp, killing two militants, Palestinian sources said.
Last summer, under then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Israel withdrew from Gaza, and Israeli forces forcibly removed about 8,000 settlers from Gaza and four small areas of the West Bank.


oh, and wait, "nary a word" when 20 Israelis die? when did this happen, don't be pathetic Jonty :o how about your silence as close to 400 lebanese die.


right now!

[maxwell's demon]

That doesn't matter, the Lebanese government is still responsible.


i almost wish i could view things as simply as you do. it'd cut out a lot of that problematic complicated stuff like, i dunno "reality":(

[War Lord]

LOL it says no such thing! :):down

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An Israeli navy gunboat fired shells onto a northern Gaza beach Friday, killing at least seven people and prompting the military wing of Hamas to call off a 16-month-old cease-fire with Israel.
The Israel Defense Forces said it was firing on rocket-launching areas in Gaza after a militant attack earlier in the day. The target areas were believed to be uninhabited, a representative said.
A spokesman for Hamas, Sami Abu Zuhri, said it was "impossible to remain silent" after viewing "terrifying pictures of the women and children" on the beach.
"These demonstrations emphasize the necessity of the renewal of the struggle," he said. (Watch the aftermath on the beach -- :46 (javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/world/2006/06/09/sweeney.mideast.beach.attack.cnn','2006/06/16');))
A mass demonstration erupted in Gaza City, and protesters Friday evening were demanding revenge for recent attacks that include the beach shelling and Thursday's killing of a Hamas official in an Israeli missile strike.
Palestinians were picnicking when the Israeli shells slammed into the beach, Palestinian medical sources said. About 20 people were injured in the attack, Palestinian security sources said.
An apology was initially issued to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz in which the IDF said it "regretted the strike on innocents," but Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, the IDF's chief of general staff, later said the military is investigating the possibility that it was not naval artillery that struck the beach.
The IDF halted firing pending an investigation.
Haaretz quoted Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas as condemning the killings as a "bloody massacre."
Video footage from the beach showed ambulance workers carrying away injured people on stretchers and a young girl screaming for a parent.
Hamas has stuck to the cease-fire it announced in February 2005, but other groups did not sign on and have continued attacks against Israel. Earlier this year, Hamas won the Palestinian elections.
Hamas and its military wing Izzedine al Qassam has admitted responsibility for terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians as well as attacks against the Israeli military. Israel and the U.S. State Department consider Hamas a terrorist organization, though it also operates an extensive social services network in the territories.
Five militants also died earlier Friday in two Israeli strikes in Gaza, Palestinian sources said.
The beach is in the Palestinian village of Beit Lahya. The IDF said militants launched a Qassam rocket from the village that landed in Israel but caused no damage or casualties.
The militants got into a car, which the Israeli air force then attacked, according to the IDF. A large explosion followed, killing three people. The IDF said the blast was likely due to explosives in the car.
The three dead were members of the Popular Resistance Committees, a coalition of militant groups, Palestinian security sources said. Palestinian sources said the dead included two brothers and a cousin.
After the attack in Beit Lahya, a car was hit at Jabalya refuge camp, killing two militants, Palestinian sources said.
Last summer, under then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Israel withdrew from Gaza, and Israeli forces forcibly removed about 8,000 settlers from Gaza and four small areas of the West Bank.


oh, and wait, "nary a word" when 20 Israelis die? when did this happen, don't be pathetic Jonty :o how about your silence as close to 400 lebanese die.


right now!


Are you sure about that?

During the Intifada, it was almost a daily occurence and all the lefties didn't have a word of criticism towards the Palestineans.

[War Lord]

i almost wish i could view things as simply as you do. it'd cut out a lot of that problematic complicated stuff like, i dunno "reality":(

Cutting through BS is a special talent of mine and allows me to see what is really happening.

[maxwell's demon]

Cutting through BS is a special talent of mine and allows me to see what is really happening.


and you always come out sitting on top, man. of the big pile of BS. kudos! huzzah!:up:

[War Lord]

and you always come out sitting on top, man. of the big pile of BS. kudos! huzzah!:up:

I leave the BS to you.

[Mr Sparkle]

Are you sure about that?

During the Intifada, it was almost a daily occurence and all the lefties didn't have a word of criticism towards the Palestineans.

I'm sure.

you don't have a leg to stand on there sport.
show me where I have no critique of palestine, or where I celebrate the deaths of Israelis.
otherwise....STFU about that.
now highlight where the beach Killings where "warranted" again, I missed it.

[maxwell's demon]

I leave the BS to you.


i'm rubber and you're glue:mad::o :( :supes:

[JLBats]

I leave the BS to you.

I find it amusing how this rhymes with "I am rubber and you are glue", since the two are so similar in spirit:rolleyes:

[JLBats]

i'm rubber and you're glue:mad:

Damnit, you posted before me.

[maxwell's demon]

:eek:

its like we're psychically connected or sumpin'.

[Superman4ever]

I don't brush it off, but when I googled it, I didn't get any real information other than from the usual left wing or anti-semitic sites, so I can't really take the story too seriously.

Perhaps I had found an indepth story from a reasonably reliable site, I could take it more seriously.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=gaza+beach+massacre&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

How are they anti-Semite, because they're Arab (or one site is)?

The third one down IS a JEWISH web-site: http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2006/06/23/even-israelis-doubt-idf-version-of-gaza-beach-massacre/

The next one down (No. 4) merely shows you pictures of the massacre...it's a PHOTOBOOK!

http://www.bubbleshare.com/album/38802/overview <<****ing Nazis :rolleyes:

The first one on that list Thearabist.net is actually AGAINST Hezbollah (and torture and terrorism among other things), here's a picture from a recent blog:

http://www.arabist.net/wp-content//FliersfromIsrael1small.jpg

Basically comparing Hassan Nasralah to a poisonous snake, which I agree with.

But, when talking about the beach massacre they (thearabist.net) simply reference the Guardian, stating that that newspaper's extensive investigation, and all evidence, refutes the official Israeli claim that they are "not to blame."

So, where's the anti-Semitism?

The fifth one down decries Zionism, which is NOT the same thing as Judaism!

Cutting through BS is a special talent of mine and allows me to see what is really happening.

You don't cut through the BS you simple dismiss information that doesn't fit your agenda or beliefs. You've repeated that tired mantra over and over again, but all your posts about history, religion, politics, etc. prove otherwise.

[maxwell's demon]

You don't cut through the BS you simple dismiss information that doesn't fit your agenda or beliefs. You've repeated that tired mantra over and over again, but all your posts about history, religion, politics, etc. prove otherwise.

shhhh......
Jonty needs to nap now.


there, there, little jonty. let your head lay down on your anti-canadian pillow. its ok....there there....dream of american gumdrops and Ronald Reagan on a big, white, awesomely heterosexual horse...with flowers all around, being stamped on by beautiful corporate CEO's.
can you hear the sweet sweet car-selling jingles, jonty? you're almost there! almost in dreamsville, USA!

sweet, sweet, jonty...

[War Lord]

I'm sure.

you don't have a leg to stand on there sport.
show me where I have no critique of palestine, or where I celebrate the deaths of Israelis.
otherwise....STFU about that.
now highlight where the beach Killings where "warranted" again, I missed it.

I've already highlighted it, you should read closer.

[Mr Sparkle]

I've already highlighted it, you should read closer.


LOL, so.....afterall is said and done, a single line of text clears Israel?
jesus christ jonty! holy jesus!!!!!!.
you really think these people where sunning themselves next to a rocket launcher????????

holy mother of crap!!!!:down:down:down:down:down:down:down

I mean c'mon it also says
"An apology was initially issued to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz in which the IDF said it "regretted the strike on innocents," but Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, the IDF's chief of general staff, later said the military is investigating the possibility that it was not naval artillery that struck the beach."

that doesn't seem idiotic to you?
first, they where firing upon enemies, then it turns out it might have not even been Israeli fire?cut me a freaking break Jonty!!!!!

[maxwell's demon]

I've already highlighted it, you should read closer.

"The Israel Defense Forces said it was firing on rocket-launching areas in Gaza after a militant attack earlier in the day. The target areas were believed to be uninhabited, a representative said.":confused:


sweet, sweet li'l jonty

[maxwell's demon]

i think he's sleeping now! shhh....everyone....

doesn't he look so cute? he even sucks his thumb. awww......

[Childlike Wild]

maxwell's demon... yer a dork.

[Slipknot]

i think he's sleeping now! shhh....everyone....

doesn't he look so cute? he even sucks his thumb. awww......
Hahaha.

[maxwell's demon]

maxwell's demon... yer a dork.
shhh.....

[War Lord]

maxwell's demon... yer a dork.

It's ok.

They only use such tactics when they're losing.

It's an admission of defeat.

[JLBats]

It's ok.

They only use such tactics when they're losing.

It's an admission of defeat.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard:confused:

What does refusing to answer questions and dodging around using technicalities mean? I think it means YOU are losing.

[War Lord]

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard:confused:

What does refusing to answer questions and dodging around using technicalities mean? I think it means YOU are losing.

I've answered everything.

[JLBats]

I've answered everything.

But you admit to using very faulty technicalities to prove points that make no sense, right?:confused:

[War Lord]

But you admit to using very faulty technicalities to prove points that make no sense, right?:confused:

I admit nothing and you can't prove it.

[JLBats]

I admit nothing and you can't prove it.

Mr. Sparkle-o:


LOL, so.....afterall is said and done, a single line of text clears Israel?
jesus christ jonty! holy jesus!!!!!!.
you really think these people where sunning themselves next to a rocket launcher????????

holy mother of crap!!!!:down:down:down:down:down:down:down

I mean c'mon it also says
"An apology was initially issued to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz in which the IDF said it "regretted the strike on innocents," but Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, the IDF's chief of general staff, later said the military is investigating the possibility that it was not naval artillery that struck the beach."

that doesn't seem idiotic to you?
first, they where firing upon enemies, then it turns out it might have not even been Israeli fire?cut me a freaking break Jonty!!!!!

[Mr Sparkle]

I've answered everything.

uh, no.......




How are they anti-Semite, because they're Arab (or one site is)?

The third one down IS a JEWISH web-site: http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2006/06/23/even-israelis-doubt-idf-version-of-gaza-beach-massacre/

The next one down (No. 4) merely shows you pictures of the massacre...it's a PHOTOBOOK!

http://www.bubbleshare.com/album/38802/overview <<****ing Nazis

The first one on that list Thearabist.net is actually AGAINST Hezbollah (and torture and terrorism among other things), here's a picture from a recent blog:

http://www.arabist.net/wp-content//FliersfromIsrael1small.jpg

Basically comparing Hassan Nasralah to a poisonous snake, which I agree with.

But, when talking about the beach massacre they (thearabist.net) simply reference the Guardian, stating that that newspaper's extensive investigation, and all evidence, refutes the official Israeli claim that they are "not to blame."

So, where's the anti-Semitism?

The fifth one down decries Zionism, which is NOT the same thing as Judaism!



You don't cut through the BS you simple dismiss information that doesn't fit your agenda or beliefs. You've repeated that tired mantra over and over again, but all your posts about history, religion, politics, etc. prove otherwise.
LOL, so.....afterall is said and done, a single line of text clears Israel?
jesus christ jonty! holy jesus!!!!!!.
you really think these people where sunning themselves next to a rocket launcher????????

holy mother of crap!!!!:down:down:down:down:down:down

I mean c'mon it also says
"An apology was initially issued to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz in which the IDF said it "regretted the strike on innocents," but Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, the IDF's chief of general staff, later said the military is investigating the possibility that it was not naval artillery that struck the beach."

that doesn't seem idiotic to you?
first, they where firing upon enemies, then it turns out it might have not even been Israeli fire?cut me a freaking break Jonty!!!!!

[War Lord]

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/6/21/153234.shtml

[maxwell's demon]

The AMAZING JONTY!

His 'answers' consist of NEWSMAX links!


AMAZING! ASTOUNDING! FLABBERDLYGHASTLING!

[War Lord]

The AMAZING JONTY!

His 'answers' consist of NEWSMAX links!


AMAZING! ASTOUNDING! FALLBERDLYGHASTLING!

And it's good enough for me.

[JLBats]

And it's good enough for me.

Dude, you ****ed a goat. Your standards aren't those of us mortals.

[War Lord]

Dude, you ****ed a goat. Your standards aren't those of us mortals.

I haven't ****ed anything.

[maxwell's demon]

I haven't ****ed anything.
again:


you SOOOOOOO need to get laid:(

[War Lord]

again:


you SOOOOOOO need to get laid:(

Of course I do, but it has to be within the context of marraige and nothing less will do.

[JLBats]

Also, I mentioned this in another thread, but it's still worth bringing up:

Jonty's sig says "A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both." but argues in favor of eschewing principles during war... in order to protect a country's priviledges:confused:

Apparently Jonty only agrees with the things he puts in his sig when they work to his favour... like outlawing butt sex and abortions.

[Mr Sparkle]

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/6/21/153234.shtml


lol, yeah, same story (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/20/israb13595.htm) but different outlook

"During the two-and-a-half hour meeting with Kalifi, the IDF agreed with Human Rights Watch that it is possible that unexploded ordnance from a 155mm artillery shell fired earlier in the day could have caused the fatal injuries. The IDF fired more than 80 155mm shells in the area of the beach on the morning of the incident. Sand would increase the possibility of a fuse malfunction leading to a dud shell that may have sat in the sand waiting to be set off. The shelling between 4:31 p.m. and 4:50 p.m. could have triggered a dud shell, as could the human traffic on the beach that afternoon."

[maxwell's demon]

Of course I do, but it has to be within the context of marraige and nothing less will do.


Perfection's the enemy of completion.

People have a right to suffer. If they haven't suffered enough, they have a God given right to suffer more.



:( . ..

[JLBats]

Of course I do, but it has to be within the context of marraige and nothing less will do.

lol

[maxwell's demon]

Also, I mentioned this in another thread, but it's still worth bringing up:

Jonty's sig says ...
:eek:


psychically connected.

[JLBats]

:eek:


psychically connected.

Creepy.

[JLBats]

Jonty got mad because we made fwun of hiwm:(

[Super_Ludacris]

Israel is really ****ing up in this war and getting exposed as overly agressive. I mean all this bombing in Lebanon over 2 prisoners

And what's up with killing those UN inspectors? Shooting the building and dropping the bomb on a UN sanction building? Kofi Annan was pissed today on the news about it.

[War Lord]

Jonty got mad because we made fwun of hiwm:(

Psh. I get mad at nobody.

[maxwell's demon]

and this is why i love you.

[cass]

Kofi Annan was pissed today on the news about it.

Yeah he TOTALLY hulked out.

[vegeta21]

I'm just tired of people in general.

[kainedamo]

It feels so good for someone else to be gannged up on for a change! Excellent!

[Erundur]

Israel is really ****ing up in this war and getting exposed as overly agressive. I mean all this bombing in Lebanon over 2 prisoners

And what's up with killing those UN inspectors? Shooting the building and dropping the bomb on a UN sanction building? Kofi Annan was pissed today on the news about it.

dude I haven't seen you post that much anymore :down :(

[Superman4ever]

Also, I mentioned this in another thread, but it's still worth bringing up:

Jonty's sig says "A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both." but argues in favor of eschewing principles during war... in order to protect a country's priviledges:confused:

Apparently Jonty only agrees with the things he puts in his sig when they work to his favour... like outlawing butt sex and abortions.

Exactly, and just like I stated earlier; only when it suits his agenda and/or beliefs can it be true and/or right, despite what contrary evidence, history, common knowledge, science, etc. state.

It's very pathetic, but 'stupid is as stupid does.'

[Danger Mouse]

Israel and the Muslims are neither the villains or the good guys in this tragic war.

I have one question though... If by some chance Israel does uproot and leave the Middle East will that stop terrorism? I think everyone knows the answer to that...

This war is NOT about land. If you think so you are deluded.
Actually, yes, if Israel were to uproot and leave, terrorism WILL stop. The Middle Eastern conflict over the Israel/Palestine issue is what drives the terrorists. Terrorists have a specific goal. When that goal is met, they'll stop. They're not trigger-happy barbarians just for giggles. It's a territorial issue.

Iraq? Territorial issue, too. Once America leaves Iraq, they won't target American interests anymore. Yes, there'll be civil war in Iraq, yadayadayada, but it will be internal.

If somehow the Jews leave Israel to Palestine, and if the western nations pull out from other Arab nations such as Iraq and Afghanistan, there will be no more terrorism. At least not in such a scale. Perhaps some internal millitants such as the ones in Sri Lanka or as it was in Ireland and even in the Arab nations, but it'll be contained and internal.

Don't be so deluded to think that the Muslims are out for the blood of non-Muslims to establish some sort of superiority. There are many non-Muslim nations out there which are not targets of the terrorists. ALL of the attacks on other nations, Muslim nations or otherwise, are because they are seen to the terrorists as obstacles in their mission to liberate Palestine, not merely out of sheer hate. They have a specific goal. When that is achieved, it'll stop.

[kainedamo]

Hezbollah is an active participant in the political life and processes of Lebanon (much in the same way as Hamas in Palestinian communities). The organization has been involved in activities like building schools, clinics, and hospitals. In 1992, it participated in Lebanese elections for the first time, winning 12 out of 128 seats in parliament. It won 10 seats in 1996, and 8 in 2000. In the general election of 2005, it won 14 seats nationwide, and an Amal-Hezbollah alliance won all 23 seats in Southern Lebanon.

Mohamed Fneish was appointed Energy and Water Minister in the cabinet and has been quoted as saying "We are a political force that took part in the polls under the banner of defending the resistance and protecting Lebanon and got among the highest level of popular backing ... Hezbollah’s resistance (against Israel) does not in any way contradict its political role. If joining the government and parliament is a national duty, then so is defending the country.”


So if the people support them...

[Edenbeast]

I'm taking a Geography course in school this summer.
We talked about Lebanon today actually.
The teacher told us that the population actually is very diverse religion-wise. Most Journalist aren't even Muslim probably, and most are Jewish or Christian.

Religions:
Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Syrian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Chaldean, Assyrian, Copt, Protestant), other 1.3%
note: 17 religious sects recognized
source: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/le.html

[cass]

Killing soldiers, kidnapping soldiers, and dropping bombs are not examples of defending your country. It's attacking your country. The terms of a ceasefire have been set. They ignore the terms. They bring hell upon themselves.

[kainedamo]

No... it was Israel's choice to bring hell upon Lebenon, not Hezbollah.

[roach]

I am sure the Nazi Party did wonderful things for Germany too

[kainedamo]

Give me a break! Israel is far more comparable to the Nazi party. After all, it is Israel that deals in stealing land, bulldozing homes, "concentrating" large numbers of people in "camps", taking power away from the Palestinians, killing hundreds of innocents over two soldiers, etc etc etc.

[roach]

have you been to Israel or Palestine????

[cass]

No, but he's from Ireland! IRELAND, IRELAND, IRELAND!!!!!!

[cass]

No... it was Israel's choice to bring hell upon Lebenon, not Hezbollah.

But Hezbollah is part of Lebanon's government and according to your post Lebanon just loves Hezbollah. Why can't they agree to terms?

[kainedamo]

I don't get what you mean... "Why can they just not agree to terms?"

[JLBats]

Oh boy.

[Truthteller]

Hezbolla does not recognize the right of Israel to exist. That is the problem. They are a prejudiced, anti-civil rights group. They do not believe in the social equality of individuals.

Disarm Hezbolla - you will have peace. Disarm Israel, the Jews will be slaughtered.

Its really as simple as that.

[kainedamo]

It's funny that you say that Truthteller, because I think it's the other way around.

[JLBats]

It's funny that you say that Truthteller, because I think it's the other way around.

So you think that the destruction of Hezbollah will result in the slaughter of the Jews and the destruction of Israel will result in peace?

[cass]

So you think that the destruction of Hezbollah will result in the slaughter of the Jews and the destruction of Israel will result in peace?

lol, wouldn't suprise me.

[kainedamo]

"They are a prejudiced, anti-civil rights group. They do not believe in the social equality of individuals" is totally Israel.


I don't want the destruction of Israel. I want Israel to be held accountable for their actions, which would probably have to end up with them disarming. If Blair had more balls, and the UN got some balls too, and held Israel accountable for their monstrosities, things would be alot better over there.

[raybia]

Hezbolla does not recognize the right of Israel to exist. That is the problem. They are a prejudiced, anti-civil rights group. They do not believe in the social equality of individuals.

Disarm Hezbolla - you will have peace. Disarm Israel, the Jews will be slaughtered.

Its really as simple as that.

Yeah, because we all know that there was peace and prosperity in the Middle East before the formation of Hezbollah.

[JLBats]

Normally I think the world softpeddles any criticisms of Israel, but here I have to disagree. Israel disarms and they'd be attacked by a multitude of terrorist groups.

[cass]

"They are a prejudiced, anti-civil rights group. They do not believe in the social equality of individuals" is totally Israel.


I don't want the destruction of Israel. I want Israel to be held accountable for their actions, which would probably have to end up with them disarming. If Blair had more balls, and the UN got some balls too, and held Israel accountable for their monstrosities, things would be alot better over there.

If the UN had balls they'd reinforce their own resolutions and this wouldn't have happened.

You want people held accountable, just not Hezbollah and Hamas. Okay then, :down .

[kainedamo]

I want them held accountable too! But first things first.

[cass]

I want them held accountable too! But first things first.

First things first? Like returning soldiers?

[bulok]

http://www.solopassion.com/files/trolls.png

I think this guy is really just trying to get a rise out of people

He's supporting Hezbollah because the Islamic radicals bombing London is doing their job for them :P