The Israel Situation

[AnimeJune]

It's funny that you say that Truthteller, because I think it's the other way around.Israel has a right to defend itself - for a nation that's surrounded on all sides by countries whose highest goal is to obliterate it out of existence, it's been more merciful then it needs to be.

Ever hear the saying, "sleep with dogs, and you'll wake up with fleas?" Support terrorists, and you'll meet their fate.

I'm not saying that violence and war is good - it never is. But Israel keeps getting attacked in the same way by Arab countries.

1. Arabs provoke Israel with the first act of violence (killing seven soldiers and kidnapping two, who are probably dead now).

2. Then, when Israel retaliates and the Arabs get their asses handed to them by the superior-in-nearly-every-way Israeli military, the Arabs start wailing about the horrible, horrible violence they're enduring to the UN.

3. The UN tells Israel to back off - Israel, being a responsible and obediant nation, does - and the Arabs consider it a victory! Remember that battle when Israel was attacked on one of its most sacred holidays - Yom Kippur? The Arabs consider that a victory, just because Israel backed off.

It's the equivalent of the kid who hits another on the head with a rock, and then runs screaming to his teacher when the guy fights back.

Israel has showed mercy - Israel has given up land and obeyed ceasefires and made treaties in order to be peaceful. They weren't the ones who chased the Palestinians out of Israel - the OTHER ARAB COUNTRIES scared the cowardly Palestinians out of Israel. Israel allows Palestinians into Jerusalem to work - have other Arab nations done the same? NO.

And do you think any of this makes the Arab nations any friendlier to Israel? NO. Every mercy Israel performs is taken as a sign of weakness. Israel has given its opponents a boatload of chances for peace. If they won't take it, let them reap the whirlwind. Israel has more than earned it's place in the world.

Coming to the rescue of Hezbollah and nations who attack Israel only stops the violence in the short term. In the long term, it prolongs the violence because enemies of Israel now know they can get away it.

Coming to the rescue of these nations only stops the violence in the short term. In the long term, it prolongs the violence and the emnity against Israel because now they know they can get away with it as long as the UN keeps buying their "poor pathetic victim" act. You don't want to get bombed? STOP HARASSING ISRAEL.

[raybia]

The first thing that needs to happen is a cease fire on both sides and the U.S. should lead a diplomatic intervention to achieve it fire and the release of Israeli soldiers. These talks should also include the release of Palestian women and children that the Government is holding with any specific charges.

If Hezbollah chooses not to then Israel has the right to self-defense, which of course is self-evident, but they need to do so in a manner that meet the requirement of both ethics and long-term interests for them and their Neighbors.

That is what civilized countries and Governments do.

[Kaleb]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060727/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_al_qaida_17;_ylt=AoddXwaeN9Enzxc0 BBtMGS0UvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[Ronny Shade]

10 days til armageddon

[Spider-Man Luvr28]

10 days til armageddon
Where's the Affleck & Willis?:eek:

[JLBats]

This is all very well and good, but what does it have to do with the sexuality of D-List celebrities?

[Ronny Shade]

thats what I want to know

[Kaleb]

*raises clenched fist in air* God damn you TheSumOfGod :mad: :(

[Ronny Shade]

how is this his fault?

[FlameHead]

Sadly, Isreal is just a base.

Their government is not acting on the wishes of the people considering a lot of the public is calling for a end to this complete destruction of Lebonon. Lebonon, not Hezbollah. Everyone keeps talking about Hezbollah because it's somebody to blame but, let's face it, all of Lebonon are suffering and the people are pissed. And who wouldn't be? They've destroyed infastructure which goes against strick war laws.

Look folks, this 'crisis' is being used to get a much bigger war happening. This is going to be used to get the US (or Coalition) into Iran and/or Syria. And it's worse, there will be another false flag event (like 9/11) to help do that.

So be prepared.

[cass]

The whole talk of needing international intervention for a ceasefire is foolish. If Hamas/Hezbollah would return the soldiers and actually retreat from Southern Lebanon, Israel will ceasefire. The U.N. has no reason to step in and screw up something again.

[Kaleb]

im ganna link everything that has happend in this past couple of months to him :(

[logansoldcigar]

Its actually not common for terrorist organisations to have political wings. The IRA had Sinn Fein.Sinn Fein's deputy leader was a convicted terrorist.

[FlameHead]

They aren't telling us the truth folks. Hezbollah, according to the following articles did not cross the border to capture these soldiers. The soldiers crossed into Lebanon.

I'm not saying they should have been captured but, the facts have to at least fact.

From:
http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html
The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them. The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity.

From: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hezbollah_soldiers.html
The Lebanese *****e Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. "Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon," a statement by Hezbollah said. "The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place," it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they "infiltrated" into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border.

From: http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348
The Lebanese Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday the arrest of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were arrested as they entered the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 kilometers south of Beirut.

From: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/Hezbollah_liban.html
TRANSLATION: According to the Lebanese police force, the two soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aïta Al-Chaab close to the border, whereas Israeli television indicated that they had been captured in Israeli territory

From: http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/article_1180404.php/Hezbollah_back_in_the_spotlight_after_capturing_so ldiers
In the afternoon, the scene changed in the streets of southern Lebanon, which was the target of 32 Israeli raids that mainly targeted areas near the area where the two soldiers were captured in Aita al Chaab, close to the border with Israel.

From: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hezbollah_soldiers2.html
According to the Lebanese police force, the two Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aïta Al-Chaab, near to the border with Israel, where an Israeli unit had penetrated in middle of morning.

From: http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/2947/2006/07/12/191@113428.htm
The militant group Hezbollah said it captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes across the border in southern Lebanon on Wednesday.

From: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html
It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory.

[War Lord]

They aren't telling us the truth folks. Hezbollah, according to the following articles did not cross the border to capture these soldiers. The soldiers crossed into Lebanon.

I'm not saying they should have been captured but, the facts have to at least fact.

From:
http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html


From: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hezbollah_soldiers.html


From: http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348


From: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/Hezbollah_liban.html


From: http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/article_1180404.php/Hezbollah_back_in_the_spotlight_after_capturing_so ldiers


From: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hezbollah_soldiers2.html


From: http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/2947/2006/07/12/191@113428.htm


From: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html

Forbes I can respect, but www.whatreallyhappened.com is probably the most anti-semitic and anti-american site on the internet.

It's never passed up a good opportunity to slag America or Israel.

[Mr Sparkle]

pssst Jonty........pssst unaswered questions here ^

[War Lord]

pssst Jonty........pssst unaswered questions here ^

I see no questions.

[FlameHead]

Perhaps they are but, there are several other reports besides the 2 that you mentioned.

[raybia]

The whole talk of needing international intervention for a ceasefire is foolish. If Hamas/Hezbollah would return the soldiers and actually retreat from Southern Lebanon, Israel will ceasefire. The U.N. has no reason to step in and screw up something again.


What about Israel returning the innocent women and children that they kidnapped?

[War Lord]

What about Israel returning the innocent women and children that they kidnapped?

Where's this proof of innocent women and children?

[raybia]

Israel's actions that are causing the loss of civilian life and destroying civil society and undermining the new Lebanese government may actually be much more detrimental to Israel's long-term interests.

As the numbers of Lebanese noncombatant casualties mount, it is eroding Israel's moral standing and it's mobilizing the popular antagonism against the Jewish state.

[AnimeJune]

Where's this proof of innocent women and children? Yeah - when the enemy is notorious for strapping bombs to women and children, you can't take any chances.

This is war - neither side is completely moral or justified. I support Israel, because over the years, it's actions have been more justified then those of the Arab nations that continue to harass it.

[War Lord]

Israel's actions that are causing the loss of civilian life and destroying civil society and undermining the new Lebanese government may actually be much more detrimental to Israel's long-term interests.

As the numbers of Lebanese noncombatant casualties mount, it is eroding Israel's moral standing and it's mobilizing the popular antagonism against the Jewish state.

In other words, dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

Either tolerate terrorist attacks without striking back and people semi-tolerate you or strike back and they hate you.

I'd prefer to be hated in that situation, at least I could take action.

[Mr Sparkle]

the whole page....duh.

[AnimeJune]

In other words, dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

Either tolerate terrorist attacks without striking back and people semi-tolerate you or strike back and they hate you.

I'd prefer to be hated in that situation, at least I could take action.Actually, to me it seems like: either tolerate terrorists attack and be thought of a weak doormats easy to pick on, or strike back and get blamed for all the violence.

[War Lord]

the whole page....duh.

I've looked at the whole page and not one question has been asked.

[Mr Sparkle]

LOL, yeah, generally when a sentence ends with this curly fellow "?" it means a "question" has been asked. :up:

[War Lord]

LOL, yeah, generally when a sentence ends with this curly fellow "?" it means a "question" has been asked. :up:

To which there are none.

The only question marks I see is on the confused emoticon, but that can't be automatically interpreted as a question.

[Mr Sparkle]

:rolleyes:

[War Lord]

:rolleyes:

When you come up with a bonified question, I'll answer.

[JLBats]

Does chocolate taste delicious?

[War Lord]

Does chocolate taste delicious?

Absolutely and there was a time when I was almost addicted to the stuff, but not so much anymore.

[Mr Sparkle]

When you come up with a bonified question, I'll answer.

dude, the last page is FILLED with questions. your little dodging job is pathetic. :o

[War Lord]

dude, the last page is FILLED with questions. your little dodging job is pathetic. :o

I cannot answer questions that haven't been asked.

And nobody was asking.

See, a sentence that has a '?' at the end is a question and requires an answer.

If that same sentence ends in a ., !, or :confused:, it is not a question and requires no answer.

[Mr Sparkle]

Jonty, Jonty.

does this avoidance of truth work in your real life?

[War Lord]

Jonty, Jonty.

does this avoidance of truth work in your real life?

I never avoid the truth.

Does accusing others of not answering questions that have never been asked work in real life?

[JLBats]

I'm still not sure why no one is just going back and quoting these "questions".

[War Lord]

I'm still not sure why no one is just going back and quoting these "questions".

Mr. Sparkle would, if there were questions to quote.

[JLBats]

Here:

you really think these people where sunning themselves next to a rocket launcher????????

that doesn't seem idiotic to you?

first, they where firing upon enemies, then it turns out it might have not even been Israeli fire?

How are they anti-Semite, because they're Arab (or one site is)?

So, where's the anti-Semitism?

[War Lord]

Here:

1. you really think these people where sunning themselves next to a rocket launcher????????

2. that doesn't seem idiotic to you?

3. first, they where firing upon enemies, then it turns out it might have not even been Israeli fire?

4. How are they anti-Semite, because they're Arab (or one site is)?

5. So, where's the anti-Semitism?

1. You never stand near obvious military targets. It's not smart strategy.

2. It seems idiotic to be standing near obvious military targets.

3. I need context.

4. I don't know who runs the www.whatreallyhappened.com, but as I've mentioned before, they never pass up a chance to interpret events that always makes Israel and the US the bad guy.

5. I need context to answer this question.

[FlameHead]

I posted this in another thread but think it's worthwhile to put here as well...

---------------

They aren't telling us the truth folks. Hezbollah, according to the following articles did not cross the border to capture these soldiers. The soldiers crossed into Lebanon.

I'm not saying they should have been captured but, the facts have to at least fact.

From:
http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html
The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them. The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity.

From: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hezbollah_soldiers.html
The Lebanese *****e Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. "Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon," a statement by Hezbollah said. "The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place," it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they "infiltrated" into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border.

From: http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348
The Lebanese Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday the arrest of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were arrested as they entered the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 kilometers south of Beirut.

From: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/Hezbollah_liban.html
TRANSLATION: According to the Lebanese police force, the two soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aïta Al-Chaab close to the border, whereas Israeli television indicated that they had been captured in Israeli territory

From: http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/article_1180404.php/Hezbollah_back_in_the_spotlight_after_capturing_so ldiers
In the afternoon, the scene changed in the streets of southern Lebanon, which was the target of 32 Israeli raids that mainly targeted areas near the area where the two soldiers were captured in Aita al Chaab, close to the border with Israel.

From: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hezbollah_soldiers2.html
According to the Lebanese police force, the two Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aïta Al-Chaab, near to the border with Israel, where an Israeli unit had penetrated in middle of morning.

From: http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/2947/2006/07/12/191@113428.htm
The militant group Hezbollah said it captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes across the border in southern Lebanon on Wednesday.

From: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html
It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory.

[JLBats]

Basically, we're looking for you to address the two posts quoted by Mr. Sparkle. Do that, and you can go play.

[Mr Sparkle]

1. You never stand near obvious military targets. It's not smart strategy.

2. It seems idiotic to be standing near obvious military targets.

3. I need context.

4. I don't know who runs the www.whatreallyhappened.com (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com), but as I've mentioned before, they never pass up a chance to interpret events that always makes Israel and the US the bad guy.

5. I need context to answer this question.

actually, you need context to answer all questions (you know, the ones you said were not there :rolleyes: ) so instead of answering, go back, this time read and then answer.

[Mr Sparkle]

I'm still not sure why no one is just going back and quoting these "questions".

short version? If jonty's too stupid to realize that questions where infact asked.

what good would his answers be?

[War Lord]

actually, you need context to answer all questions (you know, the ones you said were not there :rolleyes: ) so instead of answering, go back, this time read and then answer.

Why don't you simply restate any statements that you interpreted as questions and put them in the form of a question?

[War Lord]

short version? If jonty's too stupid to realize that questions where infact asked.

what good would his answers be?

You never know until you try.

[FlameHead]

War Lord, we all know your political interests and you're beliefs. We may not understand them or why you would believe them but, we know. Unfortuantly though, you're blind belief system just doesn't work for the rest of us.

[raybia]

Where's this proof of innocent women and children?

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m25085&l=i&size=1&hd=0

http://www.kuwaittimes.net/Navariednews.asp?dismode=article&artid=303905935

http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060726-120532-6635r

http://www.globalcomment.com/current_affairs/article_142.asp


"According to the United Nation Higher Commission for Human Rights, there are currently over 7,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, of whom over 850 are administrative detainees (that is, persons held without trial). In addition to scores of Lebanese and Arab citizens which the Israeli government refuse to provide any information about their fate.

Tens of peaceful attempted were made by these prisoners to gain their freedom or at least improve their alarming detention conditions but in vain. The one of these fruitless appeals was made in March last year when 3000 Palestinian prisoners went on a hunger strike, in protest at the denial of their rights and calling for the implementation of international human rights standards ,was condemned at the most senior levels of the Israeli government. The Israeli Security Minister, Tzahi Hanegbi, declared that the Israeli government would fight the demands of Palestinian and Arab Detainees “until death”. "


http://www.samirkuntar.org/files/PR_1-12-2005_eng.htm


http://www.samirkuntar.org/files/Act_24-09-2005.htm


"The League of Palestinian Detainees and Freed Prisoners said it was illogical that Israeli Premier Ariel Sharon be commended for the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, while "many of its residents are still in jail."


"The league explained that this was a blatant breach of article 77 of the Geneva Convention that stipulates that the detainees of a liberated territory should be handed to the authority that takes over. "


http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/due-process.html


http://hrwpubs.stores.yahoo.net/israel1097.html







http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1042.shtml

"Israel's declarations about the absolute unacceptability of one of their soldiers being held captive by the Palestinians, or two soldiers being held by Hezbollah in Lebanon, cannot be taken too seriously when Israel is holding literally thousands of captured Palestinians, many for years, typically without any due process, many tortured; as well as holding a number of prominent Hezbollah members. A few years ago, if not still now, Israel wrote numbers on some of the Palestinian prisoners' arms and foreheads, using blue markers, a practice that is of course reminiscent of the Nazis' treatment of Jews in World War II."

[War Lord]

War Lord, we all know your political interests and you're beliefs. We may not understand them or why you would believe them but, we know. Unfortuantly though, you're blind belief system just doesn't work for the rest of us.

I'm not concerned about whether anything works for others.

[FlameHead]

We noticed.

[War Lord]

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m25085&l=i&size=1&hd=0

http://www.kuwaittimes.net/Navariednews.asp?dismode=article&artid=303905935

http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060726-120532-6635r

http://www.globalcomment.com/current_affairs/article_142.asp


"According to the United Nation Higher Commission for Human Rights, there are currently over 7,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, of whom over 850 are administrative detainees (that is, persons held without trial). In addition to scores of Lebanese and Arab citizens which the Israeli government refuse to provide any information about their fate.

Tens of peaceful attempted were made by these prisoners to gain their freedom or at least improve their alarming detention conditions but in vain. The one of these fruitless appeals was made in March last year when 3000 Palestinian prisoners went on a hunger strike, in protest at the denial of their rights and calling for the implementation of international human rights standards ,was condemned at the most senior levels of the Israeli government. The Israeli Security Minister, Tzahi Hanegbi, declared that the Israeli government would fight the demands of Palestinian and Arab Detainees “until death”. "


http://www.samirkuntar.org/files/PR_1-12-2005_eng.htm


http://www.samirkuntar.org/files/Act_24-09-2005.htm


"The League of Palestinian Detainees and Freed Prisoners said it was illogical that Israeli Premier Ariel Sharon be commended for the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, while "many of its residents are still in jail."


"The league explained that this was a blatant breach of article 77 of the Geneva Convention that stipulates that the detainees of a liberated territory should be handed to the authority that takes over. "


http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/due-process.html


http://hrwpubs.stores.yahoo.net/israel1097.html







http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1042.shtml

"Israel's declarations about the absolute unacceptability of one of their soldiers being held captive by the Palestinians, or two soldiers being held by Hezbollah in Lebanon, cannot be taken too seriously when Israel is holding literally thousands of captured Palestinians, many for years, typically without any due process, many tortured; as well as holding a number of prominent Hezbollah members. A few years ago, if not still now, Israel wrote numbers on some of the Palestinian prisoners' arms and foreheads, using blue markers, a practice that is of course reminiscent of the Nazis' treatment of Jews in World War II."

1. Every one of these articles are suspect, because they don't explain how many of these so called kidnapped victims were involved in terrorist activities or how they came to be "kidnapped".

2. Most of your sources are self-subscribed blogs, so they are free to re-interpret events in ways that fit their agendas.

[War Lord]

We noticed.

Great, then we understand each other then.

[kainedamo]

War Lord - Expert in sticking his head in the sand!!

[kainedamo]

http://www.solopassion.com/files/trolls.png

I think this guy is really just trying to get a rise out of people

He's supporting Hezbollah because the Islamic radicals bombing London is doing their job for them :P


Do not try to Bill O'Reilly me!!

[War Lord]

War Lord - Expert in sticking his head in the sand!!

No.

If a claim is made, I can only take it seriously when it's from a fairly neutral source, because every event can be re-interpreted in ways that are favourable to whoever wants it.

[FlameHead]

Absolutly. I've understanded you for quite some time now. It's just too bad that the leaders you respect don't care whether anything works for others like you don't.

[War Lord]

Absolutly. I've understanded you for quite some time now. It's just too bad that the leaders you respect don't care whether anything works for others like you don't.

Israel is in a unique position.

[FlameHead]

I agree. After all, you're an expert in re-interpreting the facts so that they're favorable to your head in the sand belief system.

[FlameHead]

Isreal is a base.

[War Lord]

Isreal is a base.

all the base belong to us.

[War Lord]

I agree. After all, you're an expert in re-interpreting the facts so that they're favorable to your head in the sand belief system.

Not really.

I use real news sources, like CNN, National post, and such to come to my own conclusions.

[FlameHead]

The problem is you trust these news sources and nothing else. You probably believe everything Fox shovels as well.

[FlameHead]

I'm not sure what that means.

[War Lord]

The problem is you trust these news sources and nothing else. You probably believe everything Fox shovels as well.

If a news source has proven reliablity, sure.

[kainedamo]

Fox isn't reliable. It has Bill O'Reilly for one thing, who is a massive liar.

[War Lord]

I'm not sure what that means.

And you call yourself a video gamer.

Harrumph!

[War Lord]

Fox isn't reliable. It has Bill O'Reilly for one thing, who is a massive liar.

I don't receive Fox News and there's a difference between a talking head and a newscaster.

[cass]

Fox isn't reliable. It has Bill O'Reilly for one thing, who is a massive liar.

O'Reilly isn't their news guy in the first place. He's a pundit. :rolleyes:

[kainedamo]

It doesn't matter, if they were a good station O'Reilly would have been fired long ago.

He has a responsibility to be professional, and not tell outright lies, and he fails to do that on a regular basis.

[War Lord]

It doesn't matter, if they were a good station O'Reilly would have been fired long ago.

He has a responsibility to be professional, and not tell outright lies, and he fails to do that on a regular basis.

In that case, so would every pundit be fired.

However, it's their job to not be neutral and put a spin on the news, in which case they are doing their job.

[FlameHead]

Well, I guess talking to your is futile. If you take any credibility from Fox news, then you are more lost than I thought.

[FlameHead]

I called myself a gamer?

[War Lord]

Well, I guess talking to your is futile. If you take any credibility from Fox news, then you are more lost than I thought.

I don't get Fox News, but I'd rather treat it as credible than some guy sitting in his underwear in his apartment who'd convinced the official line is incorrect and decides to reinterpret the news in the way he believes it happened.

[kainedamo]

You're the type of guy that would say an Islamic news site is unreliable, War Lord.

[FlameHead]

It's those guys in thier underwear who are talking about real issues and not trying to impose fear on everyone all the time. It's the scientiests, lawyers, ex military officials and scholars who are doing the work in this world and these people, to me, are far more worthy of my attention than news stations who are owned by the very people they're reporting about.

TV is the greatest form of propaganda ever and we all know that 90% of any war (whether it's the crisis in the middle east or against their own people) is fought with propaganda.

[War Lord]

I called myself a gamer?

You don't remember?

Lay off the screech when you're typing late at night.

[FlameHead]

I'm not a drinker either. I may be the pot though.

[War Lord]

I'm not a drinker either. I may be the pot though.

You are the pot?

Who's the tea kettle?

[War Lord]

You're the type of guy that would say an Islamic news site is unreliable, War Lord.

Yes I would.

[FlameHead]

LoL. Nice.

[FlameHead]

I sometimes think you belief system is just an act War. Nobody can be this blind. Even blind people are more aware than you.

[kainedamo]

Yes I would.

Why?

[War Lord]

Why?

Because I wouldn't view it as reliable.

did you get my pm?

[FlameHead]

Why?

Because he's been overwhelmingly conditioned to believe that all Muslim's and/or Islamic people are enemies.

[War Lord]

Because he's been overwhelmingly conditioned to believe that all Muslim's and/or Islamic people are enemies.

No. I'm conditioned to believe that all Islamicists and terrorists are enemies, because they are trying to blow up the Western world and put the rest of the world under their boot.

[kainedamo]

According to Ghorayeb, a new poll shows 87 percent of Lebanese support Hezbollah’s resistance against the ongoing Israeli attack.

The problem with only trusting AMERICAN news sites, Jonty, is you don't get the whole picture.

[FlameHead]

The world will be put under the 'boot' of the New World Order, not the Islamicists. Man, how is it possible that you believe all of these people are terrorists? Of course, this is coming from the same person who doesn't believe gay people should have rights.

[War Lord]

According to Ghorayeb, a new poll shows 87 percent of Lebanese support Hezbollah’s resistance against the ongoing Israeli attack.

The problem with only trusting AMERICAN news sites, Jonty, is you don't get the whole picture.

The only problem in trusting non-American news sites, is that they always re-interpret any conflict that involves Israel in ways that makes Israel always the bad guy.

[kainedamo]

Maybe they're portrayed like bad guys because they haven't been very good, Jonty.

[War Lord]

The world will be put under the 'boot' of the New World Order, not the Islamicists. Man, how is it possible that you believe all of these people are terrorists? Of course, this is coming from the same person who doesn't believe gay people should have rights.

All terrorists are Islamists.

I've yet to see a terrorist organization that claims to want to put the world under its boot that isn't so.

Gay people have all the rights I do.

[War Lord]

Maybe they're portrayed like bad guys because they haven't been very good, Jonty.

And yet the Islamicists get a free pass, despite their terrorist attacks.

[FlameHead]

The CIA gets a free pass after all their terroist attacks.

Look, Islamicists are not the enemy and all terorrists are not islamic. It's ridiculous to think that. Furthmore, such organzations as Al Qaeda were created by the CIA. They were created to have something to always fear and keep the war machine fueled.

[War Lord]

The CIA gets a free pass after all their terroist attacks.

Look, Islamicists are not the enemy and all terorrists are not islamic. It's ridiculous to think that. Furthmore, such organzations as Al Qaeda were created by the CIA. They were created to have something to always fear and keep the war machine fueled.

So says some independent website that claims all the truth.

Probably, www.whatreallyhappened.com, since you've quoted from that website more than a few times.

[FlameHead]

Blah, Blah, Blah Warlord. Wake up.

[War Lord]

Blah, Blah, Blah Warlord. Wake up.

I've been up and around for a good 4 hours now.

[roach]

Man:"How can you see evil in everything."
Man2:"How can you not."

[maxwell's demon]

No. I'm conditioned to believe that all Islamicists and terrorists are enemies, because they are trying to blow up the Western world and put the rest of the world under their boot.

tell us about this conditioning. when did it begin? how far does it reach? is there any cure? does it itch?

[War Lord]

tell us about this conditioning. when did it begin? how far does it reach? is there any cure? does it itch?

Oh there is a cure, but you won't like it.

It involves killing terrorists that must always be given a free pass.

[FlameHead]

http://hammernews.com/odomspeech.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=288522002

Regarding CIA

[kainedamo]

No. I'm conditioned to believe that all Islamicists and terrorists are enemies, because they are trying to blow up the Western world and put the rest of the world under their boot.


Congradulations... you've lost all credibility.

[maxwell's demon]

Oh there is a cure, but you won't like it.

It involves killing terrorists that must always be given a free pass.


thats not a cure. thats more madness!:eek:


and seriously, who's giving terrorists a free pass? who?

first you say people who worship islam are given a free pass and then you say terrorists must be given a free pass.


have you ever heard of a Ven diagram, jonty?

[War Lord]

Congradulations... you've lost all credibility.

Yeah.

I should ignore the Madrid, London, Beslan, and 9/11.

That stuff only happens in comics.

[FlameHead]

Yeah.

I should ignore the Madrid, London, Beslan, and 9/11.

That stuff only happens in comics.

When you ignore the facts about those events, that's the problem.

Speaking of comics, they're creating one for the 9/11 Comission report. How freakin' crazy is that? Trying to instill their lies in children too.

[kainedamo]

You consider all Islam your enemy. How can you have any credibility after admitting that? Nothing can justify that opinion.

[War Lord]

You consider all Islam your enemy. How can you have any credibility after admitting that? Nothing can justify that opinion.

I may not believe that Muhammed to be a prophet, but I don't view Islam as the enemy, just those who use it as an excuse to try and destroy lives.

Unless, of course you're trying to tell me that all of Islam believes that they should rule over non-Muslims.

[FlameHead]

Just like the western world uses Christianity you mean?

[kainedamo]

You and people like you are what's wrong with America, War Lord.

The US will wage a war with Iran and invade. The public will begin to dissent. Terrorists attacks will increase exponentially. The International community will have less and less sympathy for attacks against Americans.

And it's all down to people like you.

[War Lord]

Just like the western world uses Christianity you mean?

The Western world is no longer a Christian world and really hasn't been for a good 100 years.

It's been the secular way for that time.

You like it?

[Truthteller]

War Lord reminds me of the old TIMEX watch commercials. He takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. Good show WL.

Honestly it seems like some of you love to pick on War Lord because of his opinions more than you really care about the subject you are supposedly discussing. War Lord has a right to his opinion. And further it is a more rational one than a lot of the half baked sophomoric ramblings I see posted here.

As for the topic: Again; The Israelis have just as much right to that land as anybody else on the face of this earth. They will live in peace with their neighbors if their neighbors will accept their right to exist. That is all that is needed. But the Hezbollah and other militant Islamic fundamentalists will not do that. They are fascists. They are prejudiced against the Jews. They will destroy the Jews if the Jews do not protect themselves. They have stated this clearly themselves. It is not a point in dispute.

[War Lord]

You and people like you are what's wrong with America, War Lord.

The US will wage a war with Iran and invade. The public will begin to dissent. Terrorists attacks will increase exponentially. The International community will have less and less sympathy for attacks against Americans.

And it's all down to people like you.

I see you know the future, since nobody's invaded Iran.

I mean, the Romans might have or the Babylonians but that was a long time ago.

[War Lord]

War Lord reminds me of the old TIMEX watch commercials. He takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. Good show WL.

Honestly it seems like some of you love to pick on War Lord because of his opinions more than you really care about the subject you are supposedly discussing. War Lord has a right to his opinion. And further it is a more rational one than a lot of the half baked sophomoric ramblings I see posted here.

As for the topic: Again; The Israelis have just as much right to that land as anybody else on the face of this earth. They will live in peace with their neighbors if their neighbors will accept their right to exist. That is all that is needed. But the Hezbollah and other militant Islamic fundamentalists will not do that. They are fascists. They are prejudiced against the Jews. They will destroy the Jews if the Jews do not protect themselves. They have stated this clearly themselves. It is not a point in dispute.

Much appreciated, thank you.

[FlameHead]

War Lord reminds me of the old TIMEX watch commercials. He takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. Good show WL.

Honestly it seems like some of you love to pick on War Lord because of his opinions more than you really care about the subject you are supposedly discussing. War Lord has a right to his opinion. And further it is a more rational one than a lot of the half baked sophomoric ramblings I see posted here.

As for the topic: Again; The Israelis have just as much right to that land as anybody else on the face of this earth. They will live in peace with their neighbors if their neighbors will accept their right to exist. That is all that is needed. But the Hezbollah and other militant Islamic fundalmintalists will not do that. They are fascists. They are prejudiced against the Jews. They will destroy the Jews if the Jews do not protect themselves. They have stated this clearly themselves. It is not a point in dispute.

Then why are a hell of a lot of Israeli people protesting the war on Lebanon? Why are they calling for a cease fire?

You're right though. War Lord is entitled to his opinion but, we are entitled to ours as well. Besdies, what the hell is so rational about his view? It's clouded with personal beliefs and an unwillingness to see anything besides what he believes.

[FlameHead]

I see you know the future, since nobody's invaded Iran.

I mean, the Romans might have or the Babylonians but that was a long time ago.

The US will enter Iran, there is no doubt in my mind about that. This war will be used to do that and there will be another fake terrorist attack on Western soil to help make it happen.

[kainedamo]

War Lord reminds me of the old TIMEX watch commercials. He takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. Good show WL.

Honestly it seems like some of you love to pick on War Lord because of his opinions more than you really care about the subject you are supposedly discussing. War Lord has a right to his opinion. And further it is a more rational one than a lot of the half baked sophomoric ramblings I see posted here.

Perhaps you didn't see where he said that all terrorists are Islamic, or where he said all Islamists are his enemy.

[cass]

Then why are a hell of a lot of Israeli people protesting the war on Lebanon? Why are they calling for a cease fire?



Why the hell did people protest the Afghan war? Because they're appeasers who do not recognize the severity of the situation.

[kainedamo]

Or people see horrible attrocities being committed in the name of "security".

[FlameHead]

Don't even get me started on the Afgan war...

[bulok]

Then why are a hell of a lot of Israeli people protesting the war on Lebanon? Why are they calling for a cease fire?



I haven't seen any Israelis calling for a ceasfire. I've seen American Jews but they are much like you and I, forming opinions from what we see and hear from the media.

[War Lord]

http://hammernews.com/odomspeech.htm

This is one man's opinion. The general opinion of the worldwide intelligence community was that Saddam had WMD's and had to be taken care of before they were used.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html

I'm not sure of what you want me to say about a book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax

That was a long time ago and we've paid dearly for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension

All countries do this for various reasons and not all points of tension are merely strategy.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

Apparently you want me to do another book review.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=288522002

It's possible, but than anything is possible.

[War Lord]

I haven't seen any Israelis calling for a ceasfire. I've seen American Jews but they are much like you and I, forming opinions from what we see and hear from the media.

Israel has already given terms as to what they need for a ceasefire.

Pullback of Hezbollah to 20 miles of the border.

[cass]

Don't even get me started on the Afgan war...

Oh please do. I'm looking forward to seeing what SumofGod's substitute for the day can come up with.

[kainedamo]

"This is one man's opinion. The general opinion of the worldwide intelligence community was that Saddam had WMD's and had to be taken care of before they were used."


That simply isn't true! Very few people in the intelligence community besides America believed Saddam had WMD's. Even Bush's administration had been quoted as saying there were none waaaaaaaaay before the Iraq war.

[FlameHead]

I wouldn't waste my time. If fact, I've wasted too much of it already on people who refuse to open their eyes.

You'll all see the truth someday.

[War Lord]

Perhaps you didn't see where he said that all terrorists are Islamic, or where he said all Islamists are his enemy.

All terrorists have been Islamic. That's a fact.

Whether it was Spain, England, Chechnya, or America, Philllipines, Indonesia, or others.

There's a distinct difference between somebody who is an Islamist or your everyday Muslim. Your everyday Muslim wants to live his life in peace, but the Islamisist wants everybody under his boot.

[War Lord]

"This is one man's opinion. The general opinion of the worldwide intelligence community was that Saddam had WMD's and had to be taken care of before they were used."


That simply isn't true! Very few people in the intelligence community besides America believed Saddam had WMD's. Even Bush's administration had been quoted as saying there were none waaaaaaaaay before the Iraq war.

which is why most voted to disarm Saddam, because they didn't believe he had weapons.

Right.

[roach]

It's clouded with personal beliefs and an unwillingness to see anything besides what he believes.


and you guys are different how?????

[War Lord]

Then why are a hell of a lot of Israeli people protesting the war on Lebanon? Why are they calling for a cease fire?

You're right though. War Lord is entitled to his opinion but, we are entitled to ours as well. Besdies, what the hell is so rational about his view? It's clouded with personal beliefs and an unwillingness to see anything besides what he believes.

Than maybe you should listen to Truthteller and not me.

[cass]

I wouldn't waste my time. If fact, I've wasted too much of it already on people who refuse to open their eyes.

You'll all see the truth someday.

Oh there's my little ranter!

"You'll all see the truth someday! I'm right, you're all sheep, blah blah blah REPTILIANS AND HOLOGRAMS!!!!!"


lol

[FlameHead]

Time for debate is over. Either you see the truth in this world or you don't. Either you rather live in this hell or you don't. Either you want to make real change or you don't. There is nothing I can say or do to open some peoples minds and it's far too frustrating for me to really bother with those who are asleep. I've had my arguments. I've had my breakdowns.

The thing that's killing me is that I know it's important that everyone wakes up but, unfortuanly, there is nothing I can do about it.

[roach]

Time for debate is over. Either you see the truth in this world or you don't. Either you rather live in this hell or you don't. Either you want to make real change or you don't. There is nothing I can say or do to open some peoples minds and it's far too frustrating for me to really bother with those who are asleep. I've had my arguments. I've had my breakdowns.

The thing that's killing me is that I know it's important that everyone wakes up but, unfortuanly, there is nothing I can do about it.

so going to a message board about comics is your way of openning the eyes of the world:confused:

[JLBats]

Time for debate is over. Either you see the truth in this world or you don't. Either you rather live in this hell or you don't. Either you want to make real change or you don't. There is nothing I can say or do to open some peoples minds and it's far too frustrating for me to really bother with those who are asleep. I've had my arguments. I've had my breakdowns.

The thing that's killing me is that I know it's important that everyone wakes up but, unfortuanly, there is nothing I can do about it.

Some people take this conspiracy theory stuff so seriously:confused:

It sucks, because it derails every debate when someone comes in going "Reptilians are behind it!" Try arguing from a hypothetical position, if it helps.

[War Lord]

so going to a message board about comics is your way of openning the eyes of the world:confused:

He's an unpublished author.

We all are.

I wonder how many pages I could fill out with 28 thousand posts?

[cass]

so going to a message board about comics is your way of openning the eyes of the world:confused:

"...yes."


lol

[FlameHead]

and you guys are different how?????

I have no absolute political affiliation and am not blinded by Mainstream Media, that's the difference. I've analysed evidence and history and have come to my own conclusion and not listening to everything that's spoon fed to me.

The rest of the Truth movement, I could care less about. I'm doing this for me, my country and my world as I'm not happy. It's either I shoot myself and get it over with or I fight the freedoms I know we all can have.

[JLBats]

He's an unpublished author.

We all are.

I wonder how many pages I could fill out with 28 thousand posts?

"War Lord: The Ramblings of an Idiot"

[JLBats]

I have no absolute political affiliation and am not blinded by Mainstream Media, that's the difference. I've analysed evidence and history and have come to my own conclusion and not listening to everything that's spoon fed to me.

The rest of the Truth movement, I could care less about. I'm doing this for me, my country and my world as I'm not happy. It's either I shoot myself and get it over with or I fight the freedoms I know we all can have.

Fascist.

[FlameHead]

so going to a message board about comics is your way of openning the eyes of the world:confused:

I've been a member of this message board for nearly 3 years and have found comfort in the community present here. I didn't just join and start talking about this political stuff. I merely joined a conversation already started about it.

[FlameHead]

Fascist.

LoL. Oops.

[War Lord]

"War Lord: The Ramblings of an Idiot"

I prefer

War Lord, the Story of a Riotous Righteous Warrior.

[FlameHead]

Some people take this conspiracy theory stuff so seriously:confused:

It sucks, because it derails every debate when someone comes in going "Reptilians are behind it!" Try arguing from a hypothetical position, if it helps.

That's a great suggestion but, I really can't argue with people about certain things anymore though, it seems War Lord alwasy brings it out of me.

The problem with everything is the phrase "Conspiracy Theory". As soon as it's tagged like that, the topic is derailed and all those talking about it are considered Tin Foil hat wearing maniacs. It's ludicris that people can actually look at (if they actually take the time to do so) the evidence and history and not come to the conclusions that I have. It just baffles me.

[maxwell's demon]

War Lord reminds me of the old TIMEX watch commercials. He takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. Good show WL.

Honestly it seems like some of you love to pick on War Lord because of his opinions more than you really care about the subject you are supposedly discussing. War Lord has a right to his opinion. And further it is a more rational one than a lot of the half baked sophomoric ramblings I see posted here.

As for the topic: Again; The Israelis have just as much right to that land as anybody else on the face of this earth. They will live in peace with their neighbors if their neighbors will accept their right to exist. That is all that is needed. But the Hezbollah and other militant Islamic fundalmintalists will not do that. They are fascists. They are prejudiced against the Jews. They will destroy the Jews if the Jews do not protect themselves. They have stated this clearly themselves. It is not a point in dispute.

"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."
-George Orwell

this is the type of rationalism i see being employed whenever innocent people die and it is preciseley the kind of rationalism i see in, at the very least, LARGE parts of Jonty's arguments. I have no desire to see this form of rationalism extend itself into a prolonged life of practice. I would hope you do not either.

As for the topic. "The Israelis have just as much right to that land as anybody else on the face of this earth"
Yes. by that token EVERYONE has a right to that land. and every piece of land on every inch of the earth.
Imagine this:
-some other countries go to war one day
-the war ends.
-those other countries decide america- (who was not even involved in any measurable sense in said war), will be divided up amongst certain parties who were mistreated in said war, and americans would all have to leave.
-america has no say in this.
-now imagine america has been around not for hundreds, but thousands of years.
-Now, how do you think we'd take it?

I have little pity or sympathy for those who choose a life of terrorism, but to say that this is all one parties fault, or all the others, is ridiculous.

[maxwell's demon]

Just to add:

I do have some pity, and some sympathy, for them.
I do. I have some sympathy and pity any sad human beings who, due to circumstances behind their control, genuinely see no other venue open to them, save for killing innocents and sacrificng their own peaceful life in service of some "noble" goal. to provide some small meaure of monetary compensation for their families, who they will most likely never be able to share a happy life with.
To think i could imagine what it would be like to be in so hopeless a situation, surrounded by so much death and misery, day after day fafter day, is ridiculous. i cannot. all i can do is reserve some measure of compassion for them. I would hope you could as well.

The truth is that more of the wars being fought today are being fought as a result of artificially created "nation states"- created by the British, the Americans, the French, and many other imperial nations who did not take the time worth a DAMN to learn ANYTHING about the cultures they were forcing together. and tearing apart.

[Truthteller]

Perhaps you didn't see where he said that all terrorists are Islamic, or where he said all Islamists are his enemy.You're right. I did not see that. If that is the case, I suspect he was joking, or I would simply disagree.

I would point out however that there are certain segments of the Christian religious movement that do indeed believe that Islam is abhorrent and consider it the enemy. I, myself, do not fall into such a camp, but I understand it from a belief system reference and to the extent possible, tolerate it in the spirit of diversity.

Also, please note that in terms of terrorists, (the subset of people that are terrorists) the vast majority in the world today are in fact Islamic. And further they are young and male. That is just a statistical fact. The militant fundalmentalist Islamic movement is fascist in nature and is the biggest threat to a peaceful civilized existence that we face in the world today.

[War Lord]

"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."
-George Orwell

this is the type of rationalism i see being employed whenever innocent people die and it is preciseley the kind of rationalism i see in, at the very least, LARGE parts of Jonty's arguments. I have no desire to see this form of rationalism extend itself into a prolonged life of practice. I would hope you do not either.

As for the topic. "The Israelis have just as much right to that land as anybody else on the face of this earth"
Yes. by that token EVERYONE has a right to that land. and every piece of land on every inch of the earth.
Imagine this:
-some other countries go to war one day
-the war ends.
-those other countries decide america- (who was not even involved in any measurable sense in said war), will be divided up amongst certain parties who were mistreated in said war, and americans would all have to leave.
-america has no say in this.
-now imagine america has been around not for hundreds, but thousands of years.
-Now, how do you think we'd take it?

I have little pity or sympathy for those who choose a life of terrorism, but to say that this is all one parties fault, or all the others, is ridiculous.

Should it come some day that America loses a war on its land, then it has no say in how the spoils are divided.

Life isn't fair.

[JLBats]

I prefer

War Lord, the Story of a Riotous Righteous Warrior.

Followed by "War Lord: How Oprah Yelled at Me For Writing a Memoir That Made Me Look Like A Decent Human Being".

Nah, too wordy. How about "War Lord: Douchebag".

[FlameHead]

The next war on American soil will be the next revolution.... which will happen much sooner than later.

[War Lord]

You're right. I did not see that. If that is the case, I suspect he was joking, or I would simply disagree.

I would point out however that there are certain segments of the Christian religious movement that do indeed believe that Islam is abhorrent and consider it the enemy. I, myself, do not fall into such a camp, but I understand it from a belief system reference and to the extent possible, tolerate it in the spirit of diversity.

Also, please note that in terms of terrorists, (the subset of people that are terrorists) the vast majority in the world today are in fact Islamic. And further they are young and male. That is just a statistical fact. The militant fundalmentalist Islamic movement is fascist in nature and is the biggest threat to a peaceful civilized existence that we face in the world today.

I never said that all Islamicists are terrorists, but that all Islamic terrorists have been Islamists.

There's a difference.

[maxwell's demon]

Should it come some day that America loses a war on its land, then it has no say in how the spoils are divided.

Life isn't fair.


jonty- you never answered my questions from a couple pages ago. and i know you don't like letting questions go unanswered.

[maxwell's demon]

I never said that all Islamicists are terrorists, but that all Islamic terrorists have been Islamists.

There's a difference.

:confused: what the?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/maxwellsdemon123/jontyven.jpg

[War Lord]

jonty- you never answered my questions from a couple pages ago. and i know you don't like letting questions go unanswered.

Ask them again, my memory is faint.

[FlameHead]

So is you moral judgement.

[maxwell's demon]

its ok, you answered them.

sort of.


inscrutably.

[roach]

The next war on American soil will be the next revolution.... which will happen much sooner than later.

we are a country of fat people. what are we revolting against....the Mcrib????

[FlameHead]

We're a world of Fat People and we're that because it costs more money for a bag of Apples than it does a Big Mac and formaldahyde fries.

You're country will revolt. The truth movement will rearch a critical point (the last revolution only had 5% of the populations support) very soon and it'll be impossible to ignore.

[roach]

well I think you tin foil cowboys need to get oon the same page because unless we are revolting next week it aint gonna happen since the world is gonna go Krypton around the first of Aug.

[Truthteller]

I never said that all Islamicists are terrorists, but that all Islamic terrorists have been Islamists.

There's a difference.lol - Thats what I figured it was something like that.

But isn't that kind of like saying "All yellow sports cars have been painted with a yellow color of paint?" :confused:

[maxwell's demon]

lol - Thats what I figured it was something like that.

But isn't that kind of like saying "All yellow sports cars have been painted with a yellow color of paint?" :confused:
truthteller speaks true.:up:

now can you see why some people here don't quite understand jonty sometimes?:confused:


we can't penetrate his adamantium circles of logic:(

[War Lord]

lol - Thats what I figured it was something like that.

But isn't that kind of like saying "All yellow sports cars have been painted with a yellow color of paint?" :confused:

But not all yellow cars are sports cars.

[raybia]

Yeah - when the enemy is notorious for strapping bombs to women and children, you can't take any chances.


So according to your view, all Lebanoneses, Palestians and virtually all non-Israelis regardless of age, gender, or involvement in the Middle East are a potential enemy and should be eradicated. That is inhuman and you have lost your humanity if you support the killing of human live.

So innocent people are oppressed by both Hezbollah and Israel and the West, which means both are War criminals and will have to answer for their crimes against humanity.

This is war - neither side is completely moral or justified. I support Israel, because over the years, it's actions have been more justified then those of the Arab nations that continue to harass it.

Only in your opinion is Israel more justified but because, as you admit, neither side is completely moral and justified, I refuse to take sides with those who do wrong.

To be honest, I don't give a damn about siding with Israel, Palestian, or Lebanon. My only interest is in the innocent human lives who reside in these countries and in this region who lives are being sacrificed by politicians and morally corrupt leaders on ALL Sides.

But there is a reckoning to come for those leaders who have put their personal agenda ahead of the people who they are obligated to serve and protect and insist on using innocent lives as pawns.

[raybia]

In other words, dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

Either tolerate terrorist attacks without striking back and people semi-tolerate you or strike back and they hate you.

Don't be ridculous. I never stated that Israel should tolerate terrorist attacks. But where is the logic of striking back at terrorist by killing innocent (non-Israelis) lives and destroying their countries infrastructure? Sounds like a sure fire way to create more recruits for Hezbollah by creating hate and hostily towards those who were merely innocent bystanders at the time.

But who knows, Israel may full well realize this in order to systematically commit genocide of all Arabs in and around Israel. With there apparent disregard for non-Israeli life, I wouldn't be surprised.

I'd prefer to be hated in that situation, at least I could take action.

Well, based on your popularity on these boards, you seem to be immune to the hatred of others, so your response is not surprising.

[War Lord]

Well, based on your popularity on these boards, you seem to be immune to the hatred of others, so your response is not surprising.

damned if I do and damned if I don't.

[raybia]

1. Every one of these articles are suspect, because they don't explain how many of these so called kidnapped victims were involved in terrorist activities or how they came to be "kidnapped".

2. Most of your sources are self-subscribed blogs, so they are free to re-interpret events in ways that fit their agendas.


Well, I'll tell you this, I will never be able to find any articles admitting to Israeli detainees from sources the sources that you find credible (cough *foxnews* cough).

And if by chance FOX did, you would have some weak excuse to dismiss it anyway. So what I listed was by no means an attempt to convince you because you clearly have your mind made up that Israel:

1. Is not holding innocent women and children.

2. If they are holding women and children they are not innocent.

3. Israel does not target civilians, its the civilians themselves who keeps getting in the way.

4. Anyone who dares say anything remotely negative of Israel is anti-semitic (even though Palestians and Arabs in general are semitic people.)

I posted that info to let viewers know that it is common knowledge in the Middle East that Israel has been holding Arab detainees for years and there are many atrocities that are being commited by Israel and the West that the Western media refuses to report.

But Warlord, the old question of "does a falling tree in the woods make a sound if no one is there to hear its" doesn't apply here.

Whether you want to admit to it or not , there are things happening in the Middle East that is independent of your views and beliefs. So the priniciple of "cause and effect" is what is driving most of the activity in the Middle East at this time.

[raybia]

damned if I do and damned if I don't.


It depends on who you believe you are dammed by.

I believe that only G-d can damn, so you should do what is right and not care how people think of you.

Then you will always have a choice of whether you are damned or not.

[War Lord]

It depends on who you believe you are dammed by.

I believe that only G-d can damn, so you should do what is right and not care how people think of you.

Then you will always have a choice of whether you are damned or not.

If I take you're view, I'd rather be damned.

If I take my view, I am damned by the Hype.

[maxwell's demon]

i would never damn you.


(love)

[raybia]

No. I'm conditioned to believe that all Islamicists and terrorists are enemies, because they are trying to blow up the Western world and put the rest of the world under their boot.


Yes, because we know that the Western world have no terrorists of their own.


By the way, define "Islamicists".

[raybia]

If I take you're view, I'd rather be damned.

If I take my view, I am damned by the Hype.

What's my view? That only G-d can damn or that you should do whats right?

In either case, you better hope I'm wrong or you just may get your wish.

[AnimeJune]

"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."
-George Orwell

this is the type of rationalism i see being employed whenever innocent people die and it is preciseley the kind of rationalism i see in, at the very least, LARGE parts of Jonty's arguments. I have no desire to see this form of rationalism extend itself into a prolonged life of practice. I would hope you do not either.

As for the topic. "The Israelis have just as much right to that land as anybody else on the face of this earth"
Yes. by that token EVERYONE has a right to that land. and every piece of land on every inch of the earth.
Imagine this:
-some other countries go to war one day
-the war ends.
-those other countries decide america- (who was not even involved in any measurable sense in said war), will be divided up amongst certain parties who were mistreated in said war, and americans would all have to leave.
-america has no say in this.
-now imagine america has been around not for hundreds, but thousands of years.
-Now, how do you think we'd take it?

I have little pity or sympathy for those who choose a life of terrorism, but to say that this is all one parties fault, or all the others, is ridiculous. Really? Cause this is what I compare it to:
-some other countries go to war one day
-the war ends.
-those other countries decide america- (who was not even involved in any measurable sense in said war), will be divided up amongst certain parties who were mistreated in said war. The Americans will be allowed to stay and continue their lives as they were, as long as they keep the peace with the mistreated parties.
-But you see, the surrounding countries - let's say Canada and Mexico, HATE the mistreated parties (let's call them Maxwells, just for fun), HATE them with an irrational, fundamentalist hate almost impossible to diffuse.
-The Americans, being cowards who don't want to anger the Canadians and Mexicans or appear as traitors to their religion by living peacefully with the Maxwells, run like dogs - NOT from the Maxwells, but from the SURROUNDING COUNTRIES threatening America with violence.
-The Maxwells STILL allow the Americans access to America - but the Americans blame the Maxwells for something that should be blamed on their own religious fundamentalists, and so the Maxwells - who have no nation all their own except for AMERICA - are forced to restrict access for their own safety.
-For Americans who worship a certain religion (let's say- Scientology), there are at least two countries run and managed by Scientologists. There is ONE, and ONLY ONE nation that belongs to the Maxwells, and it is in constant danger of attack.

How about that?
Life sucks, okay. Life's not fair. Violence happens. War happens. Whining about how wrong it is isn't going to help in this case - if Israel gives up violence completely, they'll be destroyed. You cannot say they haven't tried for peace - they have - but every hand they've offered to the Arabs has been savagely bitten.

What other choice does Israel have? Suddenly giving up all violence and raising peace signs and chanting love-songs is NOT an option, not if they want to survive. There are deaths in Lebanon, and it's sad - but it's high time Israel laid down the law, and made an example of those who relentlessly pursue their destruction.

These actions of Israel's are in self-defence. They are not spiteful, or done for greed or power - they are in SELF-DEFENCE. It's a harsh defence, but it's necessary. If the Arab nations stopped attacking, so would Israel - but the Arab nations aren't going to stop. Everytime Israel backs off thanks to a UN mandate, the Arabs consider it a victory and ATTACK AGAIN. THEY LEARN NOTHING.

Violence is all these countries understand when it comes to Israel and the Jews.

[kainedamo]

We're a world of Fat People and we're that because it costs more money for a bag of Apples than it does a Big Mac and formaldahyde fries.

You're country will revolt. The truth movement will rearch a critical point (the last revolution only had 5% of the populations support) very soon and it'll be impossible to ignore.

While I do think some sort of revolution within the US is necassery, I just do not see how it is possible in these modern times.

[FlameHead]

It's possible and inevitable. The people of America will not tollerate martial law, which is exactly where things are headed. The tyranical ways will be crushed but, unfortuantly, it's going to take a lot of effort to do so. And what's even more unfortnate is that more than likely biological warfare (or nuclear) is what's going to push the country into that martial law and the people are going to be told that it's for their own protection.

America is a Fascist country right now, whether people want to believe it or not. Freedoms have be stripped and it's only getting worse every single day. There is no way that the people will let it go much futher.

[JLBats]

Do you honestly think a revolution will happen?

There will be an attempt, but it will fail. Past revolutions didn't happen when the government was damn near invincible. Try fighting an A-Bomb to the face.

[kainedamo]

I don't have as much faith in the American public as you do. The British public wouldn't allow their freedoms to be taken away... but the Americans??

Before the Iraq war, the British public protested in record numbers. Literally millions. That's how much passion there was that the war, in the publics mind, was wrong.

The American mind set is different. It's not their fault, it's the culture, how you're raised. You are raised to think that you are in the greatest country in the world. You are raised to think that America is a symbol of freedom for everyone on the planet Earth. Bush tells the public that some freedoms must be sacrificed for "security", and the public buys it. Bush says that there are WMDs in Iraq, and despite the lack of evidence and the many experts saying no there wasn't, the public bought it.

Public opinion has turned around though. The people now of course know that there are no WMDs in Iraq, very few people would say there is. If polls are to be believed, about half of the country does not support Bush. But where is the passion?? Where's the anger?? Your public, even when it knows something is wrong, you won't do anything about it.

Your politicians will tell you that Iran supplies weapons to Hezbollah. Polls already show that most Americans support Israel. The US will invade Iran, and the public will agree with it.

I've been let down by your public time and time again. When the Iraq war happened, I used to think "Wow, look what's happened now! Now Bush HAS to be impeached and things are going to get shaken up!". But it doesn't matter how many lies are told or how many freedoms are taken away. The American public just doesn't care enough.

[raybia]

All terrorists have been Islamic. That's a fact.

Whether it was Spain, England, Chechnya, or America, Philllipines, Indonesia, or others.




http://www.milnet.com/domestic/dtgmain.htm



Christian

Army of God

Freedomites (1902-present) Active in Canada, notable for their longevity

Nagaland Rebels (1947-present) Active in predominantly Christian state in Hindu majority India. Involved in several bombings in 2004. Goal: Independence from India after annexing parts of neighboring Indian states and Burma if it has Christian majority.

National Liberation Front of Tripura (1989-present) A group that seeks the independence of Tripura from India to create a Christian Tripura.

Lord's Resistance Army Christian/Pagan/Muslim terrorist group that operates in northern Uganda, it seeks to overthrow the Ugandan government and create a country based on the ten commandments.

God's Army A terrorist group in Myanmar.


Jewish

Kach and Kahane Chai
Jewish Defense League - designated by US FBI

Other religious terrorists
Aum Supreme Truth (Aum Shinrikyo) - Japan (homicidal religious cult)




Irish Nationalists (Northern Ireland)



Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) (1969-present)
Supporters of the PIRA split from 'Official' Sinn Féin to form Provisional Sinn Féin. Provisional Sinn Féin was later known simply as Sinn Féin (while 'Official' Sinn Féin eventually became the Workers' Party).
Under ceasefire since the Good Friday Agreement of 1998
Ended armed campaign in September 2005.
Splinter groups:
Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) (1986-present)
Also known as the "Continuity Army Council" and "Óglaigh na hÉireann" (Gaelic for 'Volunteers of Ireland')
Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA) (1997-present)*
Also known as the True IRA and Óglaigh na hÉireann (Gaelic for Volunteers of Ireland).
Does not recognize Good Friday Agreement.
Irish National Liberation Army (1974-present)

Splinter group:
Irish People's Liberation Organisation (1986-1992, defunct)



Northern Irish Loyalists (Northern Ireland)

Ulster Defence Association (UDA) (1971-present)**
Also called the "Ulster Freedom Fighters," or UFF.
On February 22, 2003, announced a "complete and utter cessation" of all acts of violence for one year. It said it will review its ceasefire every three months.
Splinter group:
Red Hand Defenders (1998-present)**
UDA splinter group. Opposes ceasefire.
Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) (May 1966-present)
Very closely linked with the Red Hand Commandos (1972-present).
Ulster Defense Force (UVP)**
Loyalist Volunteer Force (decommissioned)
Orange Volunteers


Ethnic terrorists (including neo-Nazis and white-supremacists)

Army for the Liberation of Rwanda - Rwanda (Hutu emancipatory;genocidal)
Aryan Nations - United States
Black Panthers - United States
Boeremag - South Africa
Combat 18 - United Kingdom
Column 88 - United Kingdom
Creativity Movement - USA
Ku Klux Klan - USA (founded in 1865 and revived several times since). A tiny British KKK also came into being recently.[citation needed]
Mouvement d'Action et Défense Masada - France (disbanded). This was a French neo-Nazi organization, disguised as a Zionist extremist group, which attacked Arab targets.
National Socialist Movement - United Kingdom
The Order - USA (disbanded)
White Aryan Resistance - United States


Others

Buffalo Battalion - Mozambique
Front for the Advancement and Progress of Haiti (FRAPH) - Haiti
Interahamwe - Rwanda
Janjaweed - Sudan
Mungiki - Kenya
National Revolutionary Front for the Liberation of Haiti - Haiti
Quantrill's Raiders led by William Quantrill - USA (pro-Confederate guerillas)
Revolutionary United Front - Sierra Leonean rebels
Tonton Macoutes - Haiti

[AnimeJune]

All terrorists have been Islamic. That's a fact.

Whether it was Spain, England, Chechnya, or America, Philllipines, Indonesia, or others. *rips off War Lord's horn-rimmed glasses* Great Caesar's Ghost! Captain Ignorant, is that you?!

Raybia will explain it to you better then me. I mean honestly - even Canada has non-Islamic terrorists - with the FLQ.

[JLBats]

I rather enjoy PIE!

[AnimeJune]

I think you mean FLQ.Argh! Typo! Thanks for catching that - I'll edit.

[JLBats]

Ok, edit your own post after mine then.

[raybia]

*rips off War Lord's horn-rimmed glasses* Great Caesar's Ghost! Captain Ignorant, is that you?!

Raybia will explain it to you better then me. I mean honestly - even Canada has non-Islamic terrorists - with the FLQ.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-05-border-canada-terror_x.htm

[raybia]

http://www.milnet.com/domestic/dtgmain.htm



Christian

Army of God

Freedomites (1902-present) Active in Canada, notable for their longevity

Nagaland Rebels (1947-present) Active in predominantly Christian state in Hindu majority India. Involved in several bombings in 2004. Goal: Independence from India after annexing parts of neighboring Indian states and Burma if it has Christian majority.

National Liberation Front of Tripura (1989-present) A group that seeks the independence of Tripura from India to create a Christian Tripura.

Lord's Resistance Army Christian/Pagan/Muslim terrorist group that operates in northern Uganda, it seeks to overthrow the Ugandan government and create a country based on the ten commandments.

God's Army A terrorist group in Myanmar.


Jewish

Kach and Kahane Chai
Jewish Defense League - designated by US FBI

Other religious terrorists
Aum Supreme Truth (Aum Shinrikyo) - Japan (homicidal religious cult)




Irish Nationalists (Northern Ireland)



Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) (1969-present)
Supporters of the PIRA split from 'Official' Sinn Féin to form Provisional Sinn Féin. Provisional Sinn Féin was later known simply as Sinn Féin (while 'Official' Sinn Féin eventually became the Workers' Party).
Under ceasefire since the Good Friday Agreement of 1998
Ended armed campaign in September 2005.
Splinter groups:
Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) (1986-present)
Also known as the "Continuity Army Council" and "Óglaigh na hÉireann" (Gaelic for 'Volunteers of Ireland')
Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA) (1997-present)*
Also known as the True IRA and Óglaigh na hÉireann (Gaelic for Volunteers of Ireland).
Does not recognize Good Friday Agreement.
Irish National Liberation Army (1974-present)

Splinter group:
Irish People's Liberation Organisation (1986-1992, defunct)



Northern Irish Loyalists (Northern Ireland)

Ulster Defence Association (UDA) (1971-present)**
Also called the "Ulster Freedom Fighters," or UFF.
On February 22, 2003, announced a "complete and utter cessation" of all acts of violence for one year. It said it will review its ceasefire every three months.
Splinter group:
Red Hand Defenders (1998-present)**
UDA splinter group. Opposes ceasefire.
Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) (May 1966-present)
Very closely linked with the Red Hand Commandos (1972-present).
Ulster Defense Force (UVP)**
Loyalist Volunteer Force (decommissioned)
Orange Volunteers


Ethnic terrorists (including neo-Nazis and white-supremacists)

Army for the Liberation of Rwanda - Rwanda (Hutu emancipatory;genocidal)
Aryan Nations - United States
Black Panthers - United States
Boeremag - South Africa
Combat 18 - United Kingdom
Column 88 - United Kingdom
Creativity Movement - USA
Ku Klux Klan - USA (founded in 1865 and revived several times since). A tiny British KKK also came into being recently.[citation needed]
Mouvement d'Action et Défense Masada - France (disbanded). This was a French neo-Nazi organization, disguised as a Zionist extremist group, which attacked Arab targets.
National Socialist Movement - United Kingdom
The Order - USA (disbanded)
White Aryan Resistance - United States


Others

Buffalo Battalion - Mozambique
Front for the Advancement and Progress of Haiti (FRAPH) - Haiti
Interahamwe - Rwanda
Janjaweed - Sudan
Mungiki - Kenya
National Revolutionary Front for the Liberation of Haiti - Haiti
Quantrill's Raiders led by William Quantrill - USA (pro-Confederate guerillas)
Revolutionary United Front - Sierra Leonean rebels
Tonton Macoutes - Haiti

Warlord,

After consulting Wikipedia’s list of terrorist organizations it is apparent that, although there are a large number of Muslim and Islamist terrorist organizations, the statement that "all terrorist have been Islamic" is not true but even the statement that “most terrorists are Muslim” is not true when considered from a truly global perspective.

As a rough count, using Wikipedia as a guide, there are 132 active terrorist organizations worldwide. Of these groups, 46 are Muslim or Islamist, while 86 are not.


P.S - It may seem like Islamist terrorist groups have a strangle hold on the terrorism market place at the moment, but only because they are currently the most active and at the forefront of the media. Non Islamic terrorism doesn't make good press...evidently.

[FlameHead]

Do you honestly think a revolution will happen?

There will be an attempt, but it will fail. Past revolutions didn't happen when the government was damn near invincible. Try fighting an A-Bomb to the face.

LoL. That last line cracked me up.

I wholeheartidly believe a revolution will happen. I firmly believe that the American public will not take this stripping of thier constitution much longer. It would be happening now if people would actually look at facts that are slapping them right in the face.

There is a rather large movement happening right now, whether people realize it or not. Unfortuanlly, big brother has all the fire power. It has control over the media which people foolishly have come to trust. Plus, those who are turning America into a fascist regime have had these plans in motion for a very long time now and the fight will be extreamly hard. They knew this truth movement would come about which is why ol' Georgie boy said the following, on Nov 11th, 2001.

"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th; malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away
from the terrorists, themselves, away from the guilty."

You see, with that one quote, he turned everyone questioning the events on 9/11 into Conspiracy Theorists. This is the war they're fighting. They use the media, propaganda and whatever else they can think of (as if those two weren't enough) to squash those who question the government. The use single articles like the Popular Mechanics one or the Commission Report as their bibles.

By the way, the Commission Report is being turned into a Comic Book. If that's not forced propaganda, nothing is.

[War Lord]

Yes, because we know that the Western world have no terrorists of their own.


By the way, define "Islamicists".

They are Muslims who wish to put everybody under their boot and obey their definition of Islam. They are usually conservative, in terms of Islams, and they usually are involved in fomenting terrorist acts.

[War Lord]

*rips off War Lord's horn-rimmed glasses* Great Caesar's Ghost! Captain Ignorant, is that you?!

Raybia will explain it to you better then me. I mean honestly - even Canada has non-Islamic terrorists - with the FLQ.

The FLQ is currently very inactive.

And separatism in Canada is very dead.

[War Lord]

http://www.milnet.com/domestic/dtgmain.htm



Christian

Army of God

Freedomites (1902-present) Active in Canada, notable for their longevity

Nagaland Rebels (1947-present) Active in predominantly Christian state in Hindu majority India. Involved in several bombings in 2004. Goal: Independence from India after annexing parts of neighboring Indian states and Burma if it has Christian majority.

National Liberation Front of Tripura (1989-present) A group that seeks the independence of Tripura from India to create a Christian Tripura.

Lord's Resistance Army Christian/Pagan/Muslim terrorist group that operates in northern Uganda, it seeks to overthrow the Ugandan government and create a country based on the ten commandments.

God's Army A terrorist group in Myanmar.


Jewish

Kach and Kahane Chai
Jewish Defense League - designated by US FBI

Other religious terrorists
Aum Supreme Truth (Aum Shinrikyo) - Japan (homicidal religious cult)




Irish Nationalists (Northern Ireland)



Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) (1969-present)
Supporters of the PIRA split from 'Official' Sinn Féin to form Provisional Sinn Féin. Provisional Sinn Féin was later known simply as Sinn Féin (while 'Official' Sinn Féin eventually became the Workers' Party).
Under ceasefire since the Good Friday Agreement of 1998
Ended armed campaign in September 2005.
Splinter groups:
Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) (1986-present)
Also known as the "Continuity Army Council" and "Óglaigh na hÉireann" (Gaelic for 'Volunteers of Ireland')
Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA) (1997-present)*
Also known as the True IRA and Óglaigh na hÉireann (Gaelic for Volunteers of Ireland).
Does not recognize Good Friday Agreement.
Irish National Liberation Army (1974-present)

Splinter group:
Irish People's Liberation Organisation (1986-1992, defunct)



Northern Irish Loyalists (Northern Ireland)

Ulster Defence Association (UDA) (1971-present)**
Also called the "Ulster Freedom Fighters," or UFF.
On February 22, 2003, announced a "complete and utter cessation" of all acts of violence for one year. It said it will review its ceasefire every three months.
Splinter group:
Red Hand Defenders (1998-present)**
UDA splinter group. Opposes ceasefire.
Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) (May 1966-present)
Very closely linked with the Red Hand Commandos (1972-present).
Ulster Defense Force (UVP)**
Loyalist Volunteer Force (decommissioned)
Orange Volunteers


Ethnic terrorists (including neo-Nazis and white-supremacists)

Army for the Liberation of Rwanda - Rwanda (Hutu emancipatory;genocidal)
Aryan Nations - United States
Black Panthers - United States
Boeremag - South Africa
Combat 18 - United Kingdom
Column 88 - United Kingdom
Creativity Movement - USA
Ku Klux Klan - USA (founded in 1865 and revived several times since). A tiny British KKK also came into being recently.[citation needed]
Mouvement d'Action et Défense Masada - France (disbanded). This was a French neo-Nazi organization, disguised as a Zionist extremist group, which attacked Arab targets.
National Socialist Movement - United Kingdom
The Order - USA (disbanded)
White Aryan Resistance - United States


Others

Buffalo Battalion - Mozambique
Front for the Advancement and Progress of Haiti (FRAPH) - Haiti
Interahamwe - Rwanda
Janjaweed - Sudan
Mungiki - Kenya
National Revolutionary Front for the Liberation of Haiti - Haiti
Quantrill's Raiders led by William Quantrill - USA (pro-Confederate guerillas)
Revolutionary United Front - Sierra Leonean rebels
Tonton Macoutes - Haiti

You can try and muddy the waters if you want, but I'd be willing to bet the next 5 terrorist attacks will have one thing in common.

Islamofascism.

And let me be perfectly clear, since some of you are lacking understanding in some things that I say. I am very much differentiating between the run of the mill Muslims, conservative or liberal, who simply want to live a life of peace and those that want to try and topple Western civilization. I always have, which is why I have always used the term Islamofascist or Islamacist when speaking about those Muslim who are specifically involved in terror.

I can't help it if some of you have taken my usage of Islamacist and applied to every Muslim in Canada, North America or the world, because that certainly was not my intention, because I try and use very specific terms for very specific situations.

The run of the mill Muslims, I have no problem with. I might disagree with Islam in general, but we all cannot agree because it's not human for everybody to agree on everything.

However, I have no tolerance with those that wish to foment death and destruction in the name of Islam and I want every one of them dead, dead, dead.

Am I clear here or are there those who will continue to try and use my usage of Islamacist and apply it on my behalf to every single Muslim that lives, have lived and will live?

[War Lord]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-05-border-canada-terror_x.htm

And I'm betting that none of them, that don't have an Islamicist connection, are harmless to Canadians.

Though, I want them put down as well.

[FlameHead]

The FLQ is currently very inactive.

And separatism in Canada is very dead.

Wow, do you even live in Canada? Is you head in the sand about everything?

The Bloc are alive and the menality for many Quebec folk is that they want to leave Canada. Jesus, many Newfoundlanders want to leave Canada. There are more Republic of Newfoundland flags flying in the province than there are Newfoundland and Labardor ones.

[The Overlord]

According to Ghorayeb, a new poll shows 87 percent of Lebanese support Hezbollah’s resistance against the ongoing Israeli attack.

The problem with only trusting AMERICAN news sites, Jonty, is you don't get the whole picture.

So, a majority of the Israeli public support the war, so we are going that just assume that because something is popular, means that it is morally correct?

[Edenbeast]

Jack Straw admits it was a mistake planting Israel in the Middle East

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2481371.stm

[kainedamo]

So, a majority of the Israeli public support the war, so we are going that just assume that because something is popular, means that it is morally correct?

That's not the point. The point is, if the people of Lebenon support Hezbollah, what business do we have to tell them that they are wrong and that Hezbollah is evil?

[cass]

That's not the point. The point is, if the people of Lebenon support Hezbollah, what business do we have to tell them that they are wrong and that Hezbollah is evil?

If it is evil, which I think specificly targeting civilians and hiding behind civilians with no remorse would qualify it as such, then we have every buisness to stop it. No matter how supposedly popular it is. Your relativism is pathetic.

[kainedamo]

Relativism... is that a word?

Targeting civillians is what Israel does!! How many times does it have to be explained to you before it sinks in?

[kainedamo]

So, a majority of the Israeli public support the war, so we are going that just assume that because something is popular, means that it is morally correct?

Another point that the poll shows is that ever since these attacks by Israel have begun, support for Hezbollah has risen.

[cass]

Relativism... is that a word?

Targeting civillians is what Israel does!! How many times does it have to be explained to you before it sinks in?

Look it up.


How many times does it have to be explained that Hezbollah specificly imbeds itself within the civilian population (they also do the same with UN observers) so they can hide?

[maxwell's demon]

Really? Cause this is what I compare it to:
-some other countries go to war one day
-the war ends.
-those other countries decide america- (who was not even involved in any measurable sense in said war), will be divided up amongst certain parties who were mistreated in said war. The Americans will be allowed to stay and continue their lives as they were, as long as they keep the peace with the mistreated parties.
-But you see, the surrounding countries - let's say Canada and Mexico, HATE the mistreated parties (let's call them Maxwells, just for fun), HATE them with an irrational, fundamentalist hate almost impossible to diffuse.
-The Americans, being cowards who don't want to anger the Canadians and Mexicans or appear as traitors to their religion by living peacefully with the Maxwells, run like dogs - NOT from the Maxwells, but from the SURROUNDING COUNTRIES threatening America with violence.
-The Maxwells STILL allow the Americans access to America - but the Americans blame the Maxwells for something that should be blamed on their own religious fundamentalists, and so the Maxwells - who have no nation all their own except for AMERICA - are forced to restrict access for their own safety.
-For Americans who worship a certain religion (let's say- Scientology), there are at least two countries run and managed by Scientologists. There is ONE, and ONLY ONE nation that belongs to the Maxwells, and it is in constant danger of attack.

How about that?
Life sucks, okay. Life's not fair. Violence happens. War happens. Whining about how wrong it is isn't going to help in this case - if Israel gives up violence completely, they'll be destroyed. You cannot say they haven't tried for peace - they have - but every hand they've offered to the Arabs has been savagely bitten.

What other choice does Israel have? Suddenly giving up all violence and raising peace signs and chanting love-songs is NOT an option, not if they want to survive. There are deaths in Lebanon, and it's sad - but it's high time Israel laid down the law, and made an example of those who relentlessly pursue their destruction.

These actions of Israel's are in self-defence. They are not spiteful, or done for greed or power - they are in SELF-DEFENCE. It's a harsh defence, but it's necessary. If the Arab nations stopped attacking, so would Israel - but the Arab nations aren't going to stop. Everytime Israel backs off thanks to a UN mandate, the Arabs consider it a victory and ATTACK AGAIN. THEY LEARN NOTHING.

Violence is all these countries understand when it comes to Israel and the Jews.


whoah whoa whoah.... let's just get this straight, i'm not 'anti-israel'. One of my friends just got back from israel a couple weeks ago, just before the fighting broke out. I DO believe the Israeli peopel are largely a good people. Just

And you're absolutely right. i oversimplified my example and i apologize for that.
I could get into it, justify, rectify it, and go on about it.
I had an idea about money as the new relgion, and the new Israel as NYC, and NYC getting divied up so that yes, New Yorkers could remain in the city, but they were relegated to the Bronx or Bay Ridge or Bushwick or East New York, while the "new Maxwellians" got control of Wall Street and other areas considered "holy" by the new religion of: Capitalism
(...something Americans understood better {and perhaps valued more} than God. )
Maybe that would be a more accurate metaphor. but its pointless really. and ultimately innacurate.

And you're absolutely right. Israel has every right to defend itself.

but if you want to talk about self-defense:
http://www.moiz.ca/coffin.htm

I know that's harsh. And i know it doesnt paint a full picture.

And I apologize if a can't have the purest empathy for anyone who feels they "need" to make an example by killing scores of innocent people.
I've never once seen this actually "work" long term at bringing peace anywhere.
Every "Big war" is the war to end all wars.
And every Global conflict seems to be seen in these terms:
"if we can just git rid of this one element all our problems will be solved! And everyone else will live in harmony!"
And yet...new 'elements' keep popping up, don't they? forever.
No war has ever brought peace.
All it's done is shocked and numbed people into submission for a time, until the old wounds opened again. And I'm sorry if that's not a good enough "solution" for me to support. but f*** it. its the dumbest solution i've ever heard of.

So self defense is fine. but this, to me, goes beyond "self" defense.

Still, I don't hold Israel, or the Palestinians, or any of those groups over there as fully responsible for the current turmoil.

what it really comes down to for me is what i said here:

The truth is that more of the wars being fought today are being fought as a result of artificially created "nation states"- created by the British, the Americans, the French, and many other imperial nations who did not take the time worth a DAMN to learn ANYTHING about the cultures they were forcing together. and tearing apart.

[raybia]

You can try and muddy the waters if you want, but I'd be willing to bet the next 5 terrorist attacks will have one thing in common.

I'm very confused on why you are accusing me of trying to muddy the waters? Please explain. You made a statement and I responded. At least have the decency to either admit your error or just remain silent.

I don't know the future but I will be willing to bet the next 5 terrorist attacks reported by the media will have an Islamic connection.

Islamofascism.

And let me be perfectly clear, since some of you are lacking understanding in some things that I say. I am very much differentiating between the run of the mill Muslims, conservative or liberal, who simply want to live a life of peace and those that want to try and topple Western civilization. I always have, which is why I have always used the term Islamofascist or Islamacist when speaking about those Muslim who are specifically involved in terror.

Let me say that I have noticed previous posts in which you demonstrate that position and for that I thank you. Sometimes your posts come off a little shake in regards to that and I appreciate you for making this clear.

I can't help it if some of you have taken my usage of Islamacist and applied to every Muslim in Canada, North America or the world, because that certainly was not my intention, because I try and use very specific terms for very specific situations.

Its a very touchy subject for Muslims who properly understand and practice their religion and who know that all of the stereotypes associated with Islam and Muslims are not true but yet the media perpetuates this connection between Islam and terrorism as though its exclusively an problem related to the religion. This makes it difficult for the common person who is trying to mind his or her business, earn a living and just live a good and productive life.

The run of the mill Muslims, I have no problem with. I might disagree with Islam in general, but we all cannot agree because it's not human for everybody to agree on everything.

That is the only attitude that I can ask for from non-Muslims.


However, I have no tolerance with those that wish to foment death and destruction in the name of Islam and I want every one of them dead, dead, dead.

Neither do I but my intolerance extends to those that wish to foment death and destruction regardless of the name they do it in, whether its religion, money, power and control, race, nationalism or other various ideology, etc. There is never justification for the systematic slaughter of human life which is the most precious thing on Earth.


Am I clear here or are there those who will continue to try and use my usage of Islamacist and apply it on my behalf to every single Muslim that lives, have lived and will live?

As a sincere Muslim who attempts to teach both Muslims and non-Muslims the true teachings of Al-Islam and promote a clear understanding of the religion, this is what I live to do. To distinguish Al-Islam from extremism and from those who try to use it and twist it to serve their own agenda, whether that is Muslims who are fanantical and extremist or from non-Muslims who try to exploit the Muslim world by promoting the image of Islam and all Muslims as the enemy who only want world domination.

[maxwell's demon]

"I don't know the future but I will be willing to bet the next 5 terrorist attacks reported by the media will have an Islamic connection."
:up:
if only more people understood this distinction.....sigh:(


And jonty- i'm glad you cleared up the "Islamacist" thing. I really figured you were just using it as a general term for those who pratice islam. never heard that contraction used before.

[raybia]

And I'm betting that none of them, that don't have an Islamicist connection, are harmless to Canadians.



I really do hope that they are harmless to Canadians. But I'm sure Canada doesn't want to put that to the test.

Finding out in retrospect you were wrong doesn't bring back those human lives snuffed out by those who are uncivilized.

[AnimeJune]

You can try and muddy the waters if you want, but I'd be willing to bet the next 5 terrorist attacks will have one thing in common.

Islamofascism.

That's a funny word - say it enough times, and it makes even less sense then it already does. It doesn't even sound like a word anymore.

Like pickleweasel - now that's a funny word.

[The Overlord]

That's not the point. The point is, if the people of Lebenon support Hezbollah, what business do we have to tell them that they are wrong and that Hezbollah is evil?

Well according to that logic, since the people of Israel support this war, what business do we have to tell them that the war is wrong and evil?

[AnimeJune]

Well according to that logic, since the people of Israel support this war, what business do we have to tell them that the war is wrong and evil?Agreed.

Hezbollah is a KNOWN terrorist organization - it's original purpose was to get Israel out of Lebannon back in the day. Well, they did - eventually Israel withdrew, but did that stop Hezbollah? No.

[FlameHead]

The underlying fact over all this is that Israel are occupying land that was not thier originally.

[Daisy]

The underlying fact over all this is that Israel are occupying land that was not thier originally.

And at just what point are you determining this 'originally'... because the 'Isrealites' have been in that part of the world for a long... long... time....

[kainedamo]

But that was a long... long time ago.

We're talking about recent history here. In recent history, the west decided to give land to the Jews that did not belong to them.

[maxwell's demon]

And at just what point are you determining this 'originally'... because the 'Isrealites' have been in that part of the world for a long... long... time....
yeah.....its true. but the difference was that after the end of WWII Israel became an 'official' state- its globally recognized formation enforced by powers who didn't really bother trying to understand the culture.

but yeah, they'd been there for thousands of years, and fighting with arabs for about as long. just ...maybe not quite so ferociously?


(...or maybe it's just that there was no CNN or FOXNEWS in 800AD):confused:

[The Overlord]

The underlying fact over all this is that Israel are occupying land that was not thier originally.

You live in Canada, your occupying land that is not originally your's. Besides that land has changed hands so many times it is impossible to tell who it belong to orginally, I guess the Caanites own that land, so both the Israelis and the Palestinians will have to leave.

[Daisy]

But that was a long... long time ago.

We're talking about recent history here. In recent history, the west decided to give land to the Jews that did not belong to them.

Well, at the point the 'West' gave it to them (the West meaning the British), it was controlled by the Turks (Ottomans), not Arabs. So should we give it to Turkey. I mean before the Ottomans, it was controlled by the Mamluks (who were also Turk, not Arab). Before that it was the Seljuk Turks. Hmmm.... in fact, Arabs haven't controlled Palastine for the last 1000 years... why do they have any more claim on it than the Jews? :confused:

Seems to me if you're going to use recent history to determine who should 'own' the area... it should go to the Turks - they're the ones who've 'owned' the area for most of the last 1000 years.

Truthfully... Arabs only 'owned' the area for about 350 years (c. 700 - c. 1050 AD). Prior to that it was the Byzantines (Roman/Greek/Turkish mix) for about... 400 years. Before that... the Romans for about 200-300... before that the Jews for... hmmm... a long time.

[maxwell's demon]

i think i should get it.

[Daisy]

You probably have just as much claim as anyone. :)

[The Overlord]

But that was a long... long time ago.

We're talking about recent history here. In recent history, the west decided to give land to the Jews that did not belong to them.

So what, Canada, the US and Australia were created by enthic cleasing in fairly recent history, should those nations be disbanded as well? Besides your not factoring in the Holocaust and the need that created for Jews to have their own state to protect themselves. Besides the Arabs took Palestine from the Byzantine Empire, so I guess they own the land, no wait, the land originally belonged to Caanites, so I guess they own the land, both the Israelis and palestinians have to leave. :)

[kainedamo]

I'm talking after World War II recent. As in, there are people still alive that remember the events of the land being STOLEN from them?!???

[cass]

I'm talking after World War II recent. As in, there are people still alive that remember the events of the land being STOLEN from them?!???

Which wasn't theirs in the first place?

[FlameHead]

Canada is no better really. Nobody in the west is any better. We drove all the native people into concentration camps and some we killed off all together. That's an outrage as well.

There is a difference however.

[AnimeJune]

Well, at the point the 'West' gave it to them, the West (meaning the British) it was controlled by the Turks (Ottomans), not Arabs. So should we give it to Turkey. I mean before the Ottomans, it was controlled by the Mamluks (who were also Turk, not Arab). Before that it was the Seljuk Turks. Hmmm.... in fact, Arabs haven't controlled Palastine for the last 1000 years... why do they have any more claim on it than the Jews? :confused:

Seems to me if you're going to use recent history to determine who should 'own' the area... it should go to the Turks - they're the ones who've 'owned' the area for most of the last 1000 years.If you'll indulge me in a small moment of immaturity - HAHA OWN3D.

*cough* Ahem. Anti-semitism has had a long and prevalent history for over 2000 years. Israel is the official nation for the Jewish people, not only because Biblically they ruled it, but because the Jewish people are a race who, without Israel, would have no nation of their own. Jews live in Europe, Canada, Mexico, America, EVERYWHERE - but do they have an official nation? They do in Israel. Since it became official, Jews from all other countries have emigrated to Israel to make it their home - Jews from all over have participated in Israeli military service to show their support.

They allowed the Palestinians to stay - the Palestinians said 'no'. Too bad, so sad.

Who decides which nation belongs to whom? If it's force - then the Israelis have earned their nation a hundred times over. They have one of the most efficient military powers in the WORLD - they've been attacked hundreds of times by Arab nations, on their holy days, with surprise attacks, with long-range weapons, and EVERY TIME the Arabs lost. EVERY SINGLE DAMN TIME.

If it's through diplomatic responsibility - then the Jews have earned Israel again. They have made every effort to be peaceful, and they've cut the Arabs more breaks then they deserve.

The Arab nations are the ones that should be brought to heal - if the Lebanese don't like getting attacked by Israel, then maybe they should stop voting for Hezbollah, supporting anti-semites, and start cutting Israel a frickin' break already. It's been SIXTY YEARS - just admit it, ISRAEL'S BETTER THAN YOU.

[The Overlord]

I'm talking after World War II recent. As in, there are people still alive that remember the events of the land being STOLEN from them?!???

So Israel will become legitimate when these people die and in a few generations? Is that the yard stick now?

There are still natives in Canada and the US who have not had their land claims addressed, who still live on reserves with third world conditions, should Canada and the US be disbanded as well?

[The Overlord]

Canada is no better really. Nobody in the west is any better. We drove all the native people into concentration camps and some we killed off all together. That's an outrage as well.

There is a difference however.

So do you think Canada should be disbanded as nation and will you move back to England with the millions of other English speaking people who built their country on ethnic cleansing?

[War Lord]

Wow, do you even live in Canada? Is you head in the sand about everything?

The Bloc are alive and the menality for many Quebec folk is that they want to leave Canada. Jesus, many Newfoundlanders want to leave Canada. There are more Republic of Newfoundland flags flying in the province than there are Newfoundland and Labardor ones.

Separatism in Quebec is not the most popular issue in Quebec at the moment. Though there are separatist elements in Quebec, it's not popular enough to be a real issue. That's why there hasn't been another referendum for the last 10 years.

They have it too good.

[AnimeJune]

I'm talking after World War II recent. As in, there are people still alive that remember the events of the land being STOLEN from them?!???The Palestinians did not have their land stolen - they gave it up out of cowardice.

[War Lord]

That's not the point. The point is, if the people of Lebenon support Hezbollah, what business do we have to tell them that they are wrong and that Hezbollah is evil?

Aren't you packed yet? You said you wanted to move to Lebanon to fight Israel.

Get going, boy!

[War Lord]

Relativism... is that a word?

Targeting civillians is what Israel does!! How many times does it have to be explained to you before it sinks in?

If Israel was targetting civilians, you'd be reading about thousands dying instead of a few hundred.

[FlameHead]

So do you think Canada should be disbanded as nation and will you move back to England with the millions of other English speaking people who built their country on ethnic cleansing?

Canada is not in the middle of a war. Canada is not destroying another country in effort to further extinct a religion or race of people. Canada is not (fully) controlled by another nation. Canada has not been forced into an endless war for hundreds of years to contol it's oil. Canada does not have secret organizations coming in and setting up terrorist organizations like Al-Qaeda just to keep that area in the world in disarray.

These are 2 completly different scenarios and you're making a mockery of this conversation by bring up such things.

Jeesh, with oil prices the way they are, they way they have been and the the way the will be until it's all gone, this area of the world should be the richest on the planet but it's not because it's all controlled (though fear) by other countries obsession with the crap... which, by the way, we don't even need. We have enough technology, and have for a long time, to have been able to successfully ween ourselves off of the black gold by now.

When are people going to wake up?

[War Lord]

Another point that the poll shows is that ever since these attacks by Israel have begun, support for Hezbollah has risen.

The higher the support and the more that might join Hezbollah, the quicker it can end.

[Daisy]

I'm talking after World War II recent. As in, there are people still alive that remember the events of the land being STOLEN from them?!???

You should really learn your history before you start spouting off. The notion that tons of Arabs were 'forced from their homes' is a hyperbolic statement. I'm not saying that there were none, but it's not like in 1948 they trucked in a bunch of Jews and said "Okay move out all you non-Jews". Jews were already there.

Jews had been in the area all along. In the late 1800s Jews contituted a strong majority in a number of cities in what is today Israel (including Jeruselem). Jewish immigration into the area was happening long before 1948 and was substantial in the late 20s and 30s.

What caused the problem was that in 1948 the Brits decided to withdraw from the area and the UN decided to create two states a Jewish state and and Arab state with Jeruselem being under UN administration. Jews already living there accepted it. Arabs did not.

It was only after Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi, Jordanian, and Lebanese forces attacked Israel after it declared independence that Israel fought them off and THEN went on to occupy places that had been set aside for the Arab state - i.e. the West Bank (as well as places like Sinai, Golan Heights, Southern Lebanon, etc.) that Arabs were displaced from their homes.

It was less the formation of the state that cause the displacement, than the Arab unwillingness to allow the two separate states in the first place (The argument as to whether or not the Arabs had a good reason for rejecting the two-state plan is a separate one.). Most all the people involved, however, were already living there.

[FlameHead]

Separatism in Quebec is not the most popular issue in Quebec at the moment. Though there are separatist elements in Quebec, it's not popular enough to be a real issue. That's why there hasn't been another referendum for the last 10 years.

They have it too good.

You said it was non-existance. My response was simply to dispell that belief.

[War Lord]

As a sincere Muslim who attempts to teach both Muslims and non-Muslims the true teachings of Al-Islam and promote a clear understanding of the religion, this is what I live to do. To distinguish Al-Islam from extremism and from those who try to use it and twist it to serve their own agenda, whether that is Muslims who are fanantical and extremist or from non-Muslims who try to exploit the Muslim world by promoting the image of Islam and all Muslims as the enemy who only want world domination.

I have always differentiated between Muslims who just want to live their lives peacefully and the extremists who are willing to sacrifice their lives in hopes of killing dozens and possibly toppling governments.

That's why I've been using the terms Islamofascists and Islamacists instead of just Muslims.

[War Lord]

You said it was non-existance. My response was simply to dispell that belief.

I'm sorry for a bad usage of words.

It's still not a real issue.

[cass]

Canada is not in the middle of a war. Canada is not destroying another country in effort to further extinct a religion or race of people. Canada is not (fully) controlled by another nation. Canada has not been forced into an endless war for hundreds of years to contol it's oil. Canada does not have secret organizations coming in and setting up terrorist organizations like Al-Qaeda just to keep that area in the world in disarray.

These are 2 completly different scenarios and you're making a mockery of this conversation by bring up such things.

Jeesh, with oil prices the way they are, they way they have been and the the way the will be until it's all gone, this area of the world should be the richest on the planet but it's not because it's all controlled (though fear) by other countries obsession with the crap... which, by the way, we don't even need. We have enough technology, and have for a long time, to have been able to successfully ween ourselves off of the black gold by now.

When are people going to wake up?

http://www.technochitlins.com/mt-archives/moonbat.jpg

[War Lord]

I'm very confused on why you are accusing me of trying to muddy the waters? Please explain. You made a statement and I responded. At least have the decency to either admit your error or just remain silent.

By providing names of different terrorist groups, you're trying to make the argument that Islamic terrorism is not any different than any other terrorism.

Although there are different terrorist groups out there, the ones that aren't connected to Islam aren't bent on worldwide domination.


Its a very touchy subject for Muslims who properly understand and practice their religion and who know that all of the stereotypes associated with Islam and Muslims are not true but yet the media perpetuates this connection between Islam and terrorism as though its exclusively an problem related to the religion. This makes it difficult for the common person who is trying to mind his or her business, earn a living and just live a good and productive life.

That's the media's problem, not mine.

That is the only attitude that I can ask for from non-Muslims.

You've always had it with me, if you read my posts carefully.


Neither do I but my intolerance extends to those that wish to foment death and destruction regardless of the name they do it in, whether its religion, money, power and control, race, nationalism or other various ideology, etc. There is never justification for the systematic slaughter of human life which is the most precious thing on Earth.

No, there isn't.

[FlameHead]

I have always differentiated between Muslims who just want to live their lives peacefully and the extremists who are willing to sacrifice their lives in hopes of killing dozens and possibly toppling governments.

That's why I've been using the terms Islamofascists and Islamacists instead of just Muslims.

Everyone who joins an army is an extreamist. They are all willing to sacrifice their lives in order to kill dozens of people. This is a sad fact of war. It just so happens that some people do it by strapping bombs on themselves (probably because they don't have the funds to fight with conventional weapons) and others decide to use the largest army in the middle east (4th largest in the world I think) to pound the **** out of everything.

The difference in this case is that Hezbollah, with their rockets, have succesfully taken out a near equal amount of Israeli soldiers as they have civilians, which hasn't even topped 50 yet. Israel have not only destroyed the countries infastructure, they have slaughtered 10 times as many civilians without taking out ANY of these Hezbollah militants.

Not only that, Isreal killed 4 UN observers in their attacks.

The only extreamists I see in this situation is the Israeli army.

[War Lord]

:up:
if only more people understood this distinction.....sigh:(


And jonty- i'm glad you cleared up the "Islamacist" thing. I really figured you were just using it as a general term for those who pratice islam. never heard that contraction used before.

I try to be very specific in how I use terms.

[War Lord]

I really do hope that they are harmless to Canadians. But I'm sure Canada doesn't want to put that to the test.

Finding out in retrospect you were wrong doesn't bring back those human lives snuffed out by those who are uncivilized.

No it doesn't, which is unfortunate.

[AnimeJune]

I try to be very specific in how I use terms.And in how you make them up, it seems.

Just for future reference - Islamabad is an actual geographical place, so you can't use it as a word for meanie Muslims.

[War Lord]

The underlying fact over all this is that Israel are occupying land that was not thier originally.

The underlying fact of that is that Israel won all it's "extra" land in wars, none of its making.

There is no other country in the world that has been expected to return land in won in war, even in wars it never started.

[War Lord]

You live in Canada, your occupying land that is not originally your's. Besides that land has changed hands so many times it is impossible to tell who it belong to orginally, I guess the Caanites own that land, so both the Israelis and the Palestinians will have to leave.

The Caanites are gone as a people.

They might still exist in terms of genetics, but they don't exist as a people.

[War Lord]

So Israel will become legitimate when these people die and in a few generations? Is that the yard stick now?

There are still natives in Canada and the US who have not had their land claims addressed, who still live on reserves with third world conditions, should Canada and the US be disbanded as well?

Natives in Canada live on reserves in third world conditions, largely of their own making, because Canada has spent billions of dollars trying to improve their situation and it has done nothing.

For example, there was a huge story not that long ago about one reserve where the water had a bunch of E-coli and many natives on that reserve became sick. It turned out that they had a very good water filtering and chlorine system set up by the feds and they once had trained personnel to run it, but they turned it off becaus they didn't like the taste of chlorine in the water.

They wanted it natural.

[War Lord]

Canada is not in the middle of a war. Canada is not destroying another country in effort to further extinct a religion or race of people. Canada is not (fully) controlled by another nation. Canada has not been forced into an endless war for hundreds of years to contol it's oil. Canada does not have secret organizations coming in and setting up terrorist organizations like Al-Qaeda just to keep that area in the world in disarray.

These are 2 completly different scenarios and you're making a mockery of this conversation by bring up such things.

Jeesh, with oil prices the way they are, they way they have been and the the way the will be until it's all gone, this area of the world should be the richest on the planet but it's not because it's all controlled (though fear) by other countries obsession with the crap... which, by the way, we don't even need. We have enough technology, and have for a long time, to have been able to successfully ween ourselves off of the black gold by now.

When are people going to wake up?

Alternative energy is just still too expensive compared with fossil fuels.

[War Lord]

And in how you make them up, it seems.

Just for future reference - Islamabad is an actual geographical place, so you can't use it as a word for meanie Muslims.

Thanks for the tip :up:

[FlameHead]

Alternative energy is just still too expensive compared with fossil fuels.

Bull****.

[War Lord]

Everyone who joins an army is an extreamist. They are all willing to sacrifice their lives in order to kill dozens of people. This is a sad fact of war. It just so happens that some people do it by strapping bombs on themselves (probably because they don't have the funds to fight with conventional weapons) and others decide to use the largest army in the middle east (4th largest in the world I think) to pound the **** out of everything.

The difference in this case is that Hezbollah, with their rockets, have succesfully taken out a near equal amount of Israeli soldiers as they have civilians, which hasn't even topped 50 yet. Israel have not only destroyed the countries infastructure, they have slaughtered 10 times as many civilians without taking out ANY of these Hezbollah militants.

Not only that, Isreal killed 4 UN observers in their attacks.

The only extreamists I see in this situation is the Israeli army.

That's only because the Hezbollah is highly inefficient.

Those UN observers took a risk they knew shouldn't be taken and paid the price for it.

[War Lord]

Bull****.

Bull****, not.

You only have to prove me wrong by living the way you think others should live.

Is your house solarized, wind powered and manure fueled?

If not, why not?

[araxna]

me being a petroleum engineer i may easily estimate that petroleum is soon to be finished..but with all the hellish and absurd power mongering game on black gold..there is no way that someone would eventually realize..

[War Lord]

me being a petroleum engineer i may easily estimate that petroleum is soon to be finished..but with all the hellish and absurd power mongering game on black gold..there is no way that someone would eventually realize..

It'll certainly speed up alternative energy.

[AnimeJune]

Alternative energy is just still too expensive compared with fossil fuels.There's a movie I'd like you to go out and see, then - it's called Who Killed the Electric Car? It might surprise you.

[The Overlord]

Canada is not in the middle of a war. Canada is not destroying another country in effort to further extinct a religion or race of people. Canada is not (fully) controlled by another nation. Canada has not been forced into an endless war for hundreds of years to contol it's oil. Canada does not have secret organizations coming in and setting up terrorist organizations like Al-Qaeda just to keep that area in the world in disarray.

These are 2 completly different scenarios and you're making a mockery of this conversation by bring up such things.

Jeesh, with oil prices the way they are, they way they have been and the the way the will be until it's all gone, this area of the world should be the richest on the planet but it's not because it's all controlled (though fear) by other countries obsession with the crap... which, by the way, we don't even need. We have enough technology, and have for a long time, to have been able to successfully ween ourselves off of the black gold by now.

When are people going to wake up?

Most your post is just conspiracy theory nonsense, but let's look at Canada for a second. Canada isn't in the middle of war, because Canada has already won that war, the natives are a conquered people in their own land, their culture and languages are slowly being erased, they live in third world conditions, many of them giving in to despair, young natives slowly destroying themselves because they nothing to live for. Look at all the recent outrages against the natives: Residential schools, the Ipperwash Affair, the Oka Crisis, The Burnt Church Crisis, The Gustafsen Lake Standoff and those tapes that revealed racism against Natives in many of Canada's police forces. The natives are still second class citizens in their own land. If Israel is guilty, then you are guilty of the same crime, you have profitted off ethnic cleansing, just like millions of others have, around the world.

[War Lord]

There's a movie I'd like you to go out and see, then - it's called Who Killed the Electric Car? It might surprise you.

Consumers killed the electric car.

Too expensive, lacking power, and couldn't drive very far.

[FlameHead]

There's a movie I'd like you to go out and see, then - it's called Who Killed the Electric Car? It might surprise you.

Or perhaps do some research into Stan Meyers, who invented a water powered car LONG ago.

http://www.lonelantern.org/h20poweredcar.html
http://www.lonelantern.org/stanmeyersvideo.html

[The Overlord]

The Caanites are gone as a people.

They might still exist in terms of genetics, but they don't exist as a people.

Not the point, the point is the land neither belonged to the Israelis or the Palestininas originally, so they should stop this petty dispute and share that wretched that piece of desert, because realstically, neither of them are the orginal land holders.

[FlameHead]

Bull****, not.

You only have to prove me wrong by living the way you think others should live.

Is your house solarized, wind powered and manure fueled?

If not, why not?

I live as eco friendly as I possibly can. Unfortunatly, I do not own my own house and therefor do not live the life I want.

The fact is, every single new house that is built should be equipted with solar panels, to say the least. There is no excuse not too... excpet those in power want to keep getting richer from Oil resources.

[Mr Sparkle]

Alternative energy is just still too expensive compared with fossil fuels.

actually, is the same ammount of money poured into fossil fuels was poured into alternative enrgies they would be prevalent.

but then, a lot of very wealthy people would stand to loose a lot of money.
but don't worry, I'm sure their motives are pure. :):up:

[The Overlord]

Natives in Canada live on reserves in third world conditions, largely of their own making, because Canada has spent billions of dollars trying to improve their situation and it has done nothing.

For example, there was a huge story not that long ago about one reserve where the water had a bunch of E-coli and many natives on that reserve became sick. It turned out that they had a very good water filtering and chlorine system set up by the feds and they once had trained personnel to run it, but they turned it off becaus they didn't like the taste of chlorine in the water.

They wanted it natural.

That's one reserve, are you telling me something like that happened in every reserve in Canada. It still doesn't change the fact that historically, the Natives got screwed over, big time.

[War Lord]

I live as eco friendly as I possibly can. Unfortunatly, I do not own my own house and therefor do not live the life I want.

The fact is, every single new house that is built should be equipped with solar panels, to say the least. There is no excuse not too... excpet those in power want to keep getting richer from Oil resources.

It's still too costly to put solar power on one's roof.

To fully cover a roof, so that it powers your house, you'd have to lay down about $70, 000 extra, not including labour.

For it to pay for itself, you'd have to live in the house for 25 years, which most people don't do anymore.

[FlameHead]

Most your post is just conspiracy theory nonsense, but let's look at Canada for a second. Canada isn't in the middle of war, because Canada has already won that war, the natives are a conquered people in their own land, their culture and languages are slowly being erased, they live in third world conditions, many of them giving in to despair, young natives slowly destroying themselves because they nothing to live for. Look at all the recent outrages against the natives: Residential schools, the Ipperwash Affair, the Oka Crisis, The Burnt Church Crisis, The Gustafsen Lake Standoff and those tapes that revealed racism against Natives in many of Canada's police forces. The natives are still second class citizens in their own land. If Israel is guilty, then you are guilty of the same crime, you have profitted off ethnic cleansing, just like millions of others have, around the world.

This is completly different and I'm extreamly dissapointed and ashamed to know that my forefathers conquered another peoples land and drove them into semi-concentration camps. Then, our governement believes it can fix everything by providing money to them. It's ridiculous.

The difference however is that the Canadian army didn't, isn't bombing the **** out of these reservations in order to fully rid them of the land they rightfully own.