The Israel Situation

[Superman4ever]

Most of the people in Qana couldn't evacuate; they were to ****ING poor to leave!

And even if they could, let's put it this way: If Al Queda was to drop leeflets in NYC stating that they were going to bomb the hell out of it, would you leave? :confused:

[cass]

And only 37 children had to die for that 24 hours -- how wonderful!

http://article.wn.com/view/2006/07/31/Israel_suspends_air_strikes_after_37_children_die/

They wouldn't be dead if Hezbollah wasn't a group of cowards who hide behind civilians so that way bleeding hearts of the world would cry out about the supposed injustice while ignoring the terroristic actions they commit.

[cass]

And even if they could, let's put it this way: If Al Queda was to drop leeflets in NYC stating that they were going to bomb the hell out of it, would you leave? :confused:

Al Queda didn't nor would they. Israel at least gives people a chance.

[Superman4ever]

They wouldn't be dead if Hezbollah wasn't a group of cowards who hide behind civilians so that way bleeding hearts of the world would cry out about the supposed injustice while ignoring the terroristic actions they commit.

There were NO combatants there and NO evidence of rockets or rocket launchers!

BTW, I'm adamantly against terrorism, so don't pin that bleeding-hearts crap on me. I supported Israel, initially, in this endevour, but it's been over 18 days and 450-500 civilians have been killed, thousands maimed, and hundreds of thousands displaced. That's the definition of a war crime!

[Superman4ever]

Al Queda didn't nor would they. Israel at least gives people a chance.

Again you people dance around the actual point. Would you if they did?

[FlameHead]

Al Queda didn't nor would they. Israel at least gives people a chance.

A Chance? That's quite humorous if you'd stop to think about that. The roads were destroyed, buildings fallen everywhere, bridges demolished - The infastructure, their freakin' ways out, is demolished. That's not giving them a chance.

Besides, Isreal is attacking those who are trying to get out! Don't try and give us this ****.

[cass]

There were NO combatants there and NO evidence of rockets or rocket launchers!

BTW, I'm adamantly against terrorism, so don't pin that bleeding-hearts crap on me. I supported Israel, initially, in this endevour, but it's been over 18 days and 450-500 civilians have been killed, thousands maimed, and hundreds of thousands displaced. That's the definition of a war crime!

There was evidence of rockets launched last that I heard. War crimes? Like kidnapping 2 soldiers, killing 8 soldiers, and invading a border in order to do so. War is war.

[Superman4ever]

A Chance? That's quite humorous if you'd stop to think about that. The roads were destroyed, buildings fallen everywhere, bridges demolished - The infastructure, their freakin' ways out, is demolished. That's not giving them a chance.

Besides, Isreal is attacking those who are trying to get out! Don't try and give us this ****.

Besides the point that most of the people can't afford to flee, and the fact that they shouldn't have too -- It's their country!

[Jolie_Desastre]

edit

[cass]

A Chance? That's quite humorous if you'd stop to think about that. The roads were destroyed, buildings fallen everywhere, bridges demolished - The infastructure, their freakin' ways out, is demolished. That's not giving them a chance.

Besides, Isreal is attacking those who are trying to get out! Don't try and give us this ****.

When you wanna talk, make sure and take of your tinfoil hat.

[Jolie_Desastre]

ok so i've read this thread through for awhile. and for those of you who have done your research i applaud you.



*applauds*

[cass]

Again you people dance around the actual point. Would you if they did?

If I was in a warzone as a civilian and that was my option, yes I would. Because it's the smart thing to do.

[FlameHead]

Besides the point that most of the people can't afford to flee, and the fact that they shouldn't have too -- It's their country!

I agree.

Those who CAN afford to get out are paying an arm and a leg (oooh, incredibly horrible pun... sorry) for it.

[FlameHead]

When you wanna talk, make sure and take of your tinfoil hat.

That's the best you can do to refute my comments? Sad.

[cass]

That's the best you can do to refute my comments? Sad.

Considering how delusional you truly are, there's no reason to refute your comments let alone consort with you.

[FlameHead]

If I was in a warzone as a civilian and that was my option, yes I would. Because it's the smart thing to do.

If you couldn't afford it and the infasture, the path, the way out was destroyed, what would you do?

[Superman4ever]

There was evidence of rockets launched last that I heard. War crimes? Like kidnapping 2 soldiers, killing 8 soldiers, and invading a border in order to do so. War is war.

400-450 innocent civilians Vs. 10 actual COMBATANTS. You guys have some ridiculous math skills.

What was the definition of a terrorist again? Hezbollah targeted, even if it was unprovoked, SOLIDERS. Not civilians! Isn't that why terrorists are so bad, they kill anyone who stands in their way?

[FlameHead]

Considering how delusional you truly are, there's no reason to refute your comments let alone consort with you.

Delusional is a matter of opinion. From where I sit, you're the one who has no grasp on reality.

[FlameHead]

400-450 innocent civilians Vs. 10 actual COMBATANTS. You guys have some ridiculous math skills.

What was the definition of a terrorist again? Hezbollah targeted, even if it was unprovoked, SOLIDERS. Not civilians! Isn't that why terrorists are so bad, they kill anyone who stands in their way?

Hezbollah didn't destroy a UN observation post killing 4 UN observers either...

[Superman4ever]

Hezbollah didn't destroy a UN observation post killing 4 UN observers either...

No, but I bet they were hiding there!

[cass]

400-450 innocent civilians Vs. 10 actual COMBATANTS. You guys have some ridiculous math skills.

What was the definition of a terrorist again? Hezbollah targeted, even if it was unprovoked, SOLIDERS. Not civilians! Isn't that why terrorists are so bad, they kill anyone who stands in their way?
The men were not combating at the time.

But apparently you can look over the fact that it was unprovoked.

They're attacking civilian cities now, with no military prescence.


And the proportionality factor? Do you think the US should've withdrawn from WWII after they had killed an equal number of those killed in the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

[FlameHead]

No, but I bet they were hiding there!

No, No. It was an accident remember. They made a mistake... with those lazer guided smart bombs which use drones as their targeting system and are accurate down to inches...

[Superman4ever]

If I was in a warzone as a civilian and that was my option, yes I would. Because it's the smart thing to do.

Talk about delusional! :rolleyes: This coming from the same war-hawk that supports: the killing of 450-plus civilians, thousands injured, and hundreds of thousands displaced.

[cass]

No, but I bet they were hiding there!

According to one of the people at the site days before the attack, they were.

[FlameHead]

According to one of the people at the site days before the attack, they were.

Nice specifics. Either way, it was a UN OBSERVATION POST, not Hezbollah headquarters.

[FlameHead]

I find a major problem with the correlation of facts that the only country (well, besides the Brits) who doesn't want an immediate ceasfire is the same country who has supplied the weapons to the major aggressor in this war.

[Superman4ever]

The men were not combating at the time.

But apparently you can look over the fact that it was unprovoked.

They're attacking civilian cities now, with no military prescence.

I said that "even if it was UNPROVOKED." I didn't over look anything, I've said that! And I've said before that it was a ACT OF WAR. But you go to war against the militants/ kidnappers, not babies and women sleeping in a basement!

[Superman4ever]

According to one of the people at the site days before the attack, they were.

See Flame...I told you! :D

BTW, sources please...besides your ass!

[cass]

Nice specifics. Either way, it was a UN OBSERVATION POST, not Hezbollah headquarters.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50

Which Hezbollah pulled its favorite trick: hiding behind civilians.

[FlameHead]

I said that "even if it was UNPROVOKED." I didn't over look anything, I've said that! And I've said before that it was a ACT OF WAR. But you go to war against the militants/ kidnappers, not babies and women sleeping in a basement!

Let alone the fact that there are several news reports stating that the Israeli solders were kidnapped (though still not right) on Lebonese land, not Israeli.

[cass]

See Flame...I told you! :D

BTW, sources please...besides your ass!

tee hee, lol,

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50

[FlameHead]

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50

Which Hezbollah pulled its favorite trick: hiding behind civilians.

You're pathetic. Don't you think that at least some of those Hezbollah folks would have been taken out if they were hiding behind these Civilians? Don't you think you'd find more young men if that were true? Dont' you think the rocket attacks would have at least dropped in the last two weeks if that were the case?

[cass]

You're pathetic. Don't you think that at least some of those Hezbollah folks would have been taken out if they were hiding behind these Civilians? Don't you think you'd find more young men if that were true? Dont' you think the rocket attacks would have at least dropped in the last two weeks if that were the case?

Your response is "You're pathetic."

lol

So much for denying facts, eh?

[FlameHead]

Furthermore, bridges are not hiding places for Hezbollah. Why were they destoryed?

[FlameHead]

Your response is "You're pathetic."

lol

So much for denying facts, eh?

All you quoted was propaganda with this 'hiding behind civilian' crap.

[cass]

All you quoted was propaganda with this 'hiding behind civilian' crap.

I posted news. Deal with it.

[cass]

Furthermore, bridges are not hiding places for Hezbollah. Why were they destoryed?

To make sure that supplies won't be able to make it to Hezbollah fighters.

Are you seriously this dense?

[FlameHead]

I posted news. Deal with it.

Here's some news saying that the solders were kidnapped in Lebanon.

http://www.forbes.com/technology/fee...ap2873051.html
http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/m...ing_so ldiers
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/he..._soldiers.html
http://fr.news.yahoo.com/12072006/20...tres-tues.html
http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/2947/200...191@113428.htm
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html
http://www.voltairenet.org/article142056.html

Deal with that.

[FlameHead]

To make sure that supplies won't be able to make it to Hezbollah fighters.

Are you seriously this dense?

There a rules of engagment in wars. One of them is not to destroy civilian infastructure.

[cass]

Here's some news saying that the solders were kidnapped in Lebanon.

http://www.forbes.com/technology/fee...ap2873051.html
http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/m...ing_so ldiers
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/he..._soldiers.html
http://fr.news.yahoo.com/12072006/20...tres-tues.html
http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/2947/200...191@113428.htm
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html
http://www.voltairenet.org/article142056.html

Deal with that.

I could just say, oh that's just propaganda, but then again I'm not you. I'm going to actually read.

[cass]

There a rules of engagment in wars. One of them is not to destroy civilian infastructure.

What rulebook are you looking at? The rulebook for how to lose a war?

[FlameHead]

I could just say, oh that's just propaganda, but then again I'm not you. I'm going to actually read.

My point is merely that you cannot trust everything you read. Sometimes you have to look at the situation and decide things for yourself.

[FlameHead]

What rulebook are you looking at? The rulebook for how to lose a war?

It's time for you to do some research. You're obviously haven't read enough to fully make up your mind on the situation.

[FlameHead]

Double post

[cass]

Of the links that worked, that I could read (there were 2) one relied on Hezbollah's word. The other, I'll look into further.

[cass]

It's time for you to do some research. You're obviously haven't read enough to fully make up your mind on the situation.

Uh, yeah I have.

[Superman4ever]

tee hee, lol,

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50

But,

UN observers had telephoned the Israeli military 10 times in six hours to ask it to stop shelling near their position before the attack on Tuesday, which sparked international anger with Israel.

The Israelis already knew that innocent civilians were there, the UN observers. They deliberitly bombed civilians/unarmed combatants.

UN officials said Hizbullah gunmen had been operating in the area of the post near the eastern end of the border with Israel, a routine tactic to prevent Israel from attacking them.

The Gunman were not at the facility but hiding behind it. Within the area...NOT in it! Is it wrong? Hell yes, but Israel still bombed unarmed combatants to remove the 'sheild'. Targeting the unarmed!

But in a letter read at Sunday's memorial service, Annan said: "Many questions surround the tragic deaths of these unarmed peacekeepers, and these must be answered." Annan had earlier said the Israeli attack was "apparently deliberate."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292037311&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[War Lord]

After some research and watching the news, I don't even consider Hezbollah terrorists. They're more like a militia.

Israel says "disarm and we'll ceasefire", but why the hell should they?

Hezbollah aren't the ones that killed 50 people yesterday. Israel should disarm.

I don't mind if Hezbollah doesn't disarm.

It makes it easier to target them.

[War Lord]

Well, Israel did post leaflets saying that folks should get out. I do understand that these folks were refugees as it was and probably had nowhere to go. When I was musing to myself if their placement in that adjacent building was deliberate, I wasn't saying that it was fact, I was just wondering. Intentional or not, the reality is, Hezbollah got what they wanted -- the sympathy of the international community is leaning more in their favor.

One of the reasons why there are so many civilian casualties is that Hezbollah is are throwing up roadblocks to keep Lebanese from leaving their towns and forcing them to act as human shields.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278026,00.html

[War Lord]

Oh yeah, they teach their children wonderful things.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlimage&blobheader=image%2Fjpeg&blobkey=id&blobtable=JPImage&blobwhere=1153291983785&cachecontrol=never&ssbinary=true

Like how to write messages on the bombs they about to kill Lebonons children with.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291980307&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

At least all they do is write, as opposed to Palestinean children, who strap themselves with explosives.

[War Lord]

Why do you guys even argue with War Lord anymore? The guy does not know what he's talking about and is a right wing extremist with his head in the sand.

Israel can not do anything wrong by Jonty.

I'm not saying Israel is always correct, but they're far more lenient and merciful to their enemies than their enemies are towards them.

[FlameHead]

So we noticed.... sheesh.

[War Lord]

Here is something very interesting I found out.

According to the Israeli Ministry Of Foreign Affairs, (ttp://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/exeres/9EE216D7-82EF-4274-B80D-6BBD1803E8A7,frameless.htm?NRMODE=Published) prior to the start of the current conlfict, in the last 6 years (since the May 2000 IDF pullout of Lebanon) Hezbollah had only killed 13 soldiers and 7 civilians, wounded 27 soldiers and 7 civilians, and captured three soldiers and two civilians for a grand total of 54 casualties, only 20 of whom were killed, and only 7 civilian deaths.

What strikes me besides the extremely low numbers of this "terrible threat" to Israel is the high ratio or soldiers to civilians injured or killed in these actions.

That's 13 soldiers, 7 civilians, 27 soldiers wounded, 7 civilians wounded, 3 captured soldiers, and 2 captured civilians for a grand total of 54 casualties, of whom only 20 were killed and 7 civilians killed who did nothing and Israel did nothing to provoke, but were killed, wounded and kidnapped for no reason.

In other words, these were a total of 20 dead and 34 wounded and 5 captured that Hezbollah was trying to provoke Israel and guess what, it finally worked. Hezbollah got what it wanted and deserved.

There is no other country on earth that would have tolerated such statistics and do nothing, but Israel was expected to take it on the chin, again.

[Mr Sparkle]

Well let's see the BBC has also reported that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Israel, not Lebanon: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5196800.stm

That's two major professional news organizations, with no history of right wing or pro Israeli agendas, that confirm that your theory is wrong. What did they both get taken over by "evil right wing Jews" or something? All you have given me is some guy's website and a bunch sources you refuse to name, most major news organizations around the world are stating your theory is wrong. Seems like your allowing your passion and arrogance to override your judgement.

yeah, sorry :rolleyes: x billion

edit: I missed the awesome part where you called forbes.com "dubious"which leads me to belive that you're like 12 or something, so no biggie I guess.
anime June is funny. he, she or it. keeps saying, "where are the soldiers????" by the logic that if only Hezbolah had returned those 2 soldiers israel wouldn't have to kills hundreds unpon hundreds of civillians, yeah, good job on that logic :up: I like the bar story as well, simpletons always want to draw comparisons that ehy can relate to, too bad that situations tend to be complex and can't be easily reduced to the old, "where it's like we are in the bar see? LOL":rolley:
gamma ray is Insane, he saw a picture of a tank going up against a priest and he said it could've been anytything!!!! WTF?????? LOL
and the saddest [art is that these people think that well, "we must support terrorists, since we don't support israel"
see? they don't get that you have to be able to decry whenever a country oversteps it's bounds and hurts the innocent.

but hey.....blah!

[War Lord]

ISRAEL IS KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN ON A DAILY BASES. MANY OF THEM.

Does that not bother you? Does it not bother you that the 'accidently' killed four UN peacekeepers using a smart bomb. Does it not bother you that just yesterday they hit a target, killing over 60 people, over half of which were children and none of them young men?

How can you guys want to let that go on? You're all pathetic if you think Israels actions are justified. Jesus ****ing christ people, Lebanon is being completly destroyed, infastructure being completely demolished and you guys think it's justified?

Wake the **** up.

The UN had no business being there.

In the future, perhaps Lebanon will think twice before allowing another terrorist group to function within its borders.

[War Lord]

You ****ing people drive me insane. You actually want to see this war continue. You actually support those who have killed nearly 600 civilians in 2 weeks without even being able to reduce the number of 'rocket attacks' coming from the other side. On the other hand, Hezbollah, an organization that is fully respected by Lebanon and has been able to provide for the country has killed only 1/10th the number civilians and nearly the same amount of Israeli soldiers.

Do you realize that Israel says that they dropped leaflets telling people to get out which is wonderful but, they've also destroyed the infastruture, meaning roads and passageways, thus making it impossible for people to get out and it's even worse for those who have little money. Let alone the fact that vehicles which are trying to get out of harms way are being attacked as well.

I'm not the one with my head in the sand folks. You, who want this war to continue are.

Besides, we'll see who's proven wrong when this war escalates into Syria and then Iran. You'll see who's wrong when the first Nuke is launched.

I'd like the war to end tomorrow and peace break out forever more, but that will not happen until Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, and all other terrorist organizations are forcibly disarmed. Until that happens, no ceasefire can be made permanent.

If you really want peace long-term, take out Iran.

[Danger Mouse]

Goddammit, man. Even a rookie beat cop have enough sense not to shoot at a criminal who has a hostage as a human shield.

[Danger Mouse]

One of the reasons why there are so many civilian casualties is that Hezbollah is are throwing up roadblocks to keep Lebanese from leaving their towns and forcing them to act as human shields.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278026,00.html
Since you and your kin are quick to dismiss news reports from Al-Jazeera, Lebanon Daily, etc., I'm suppose to take a short, one paragraph update from Friends of Magen David Adom as the gospel truth?

[War Lord]

Goddammit, man. Even a rookie beat cop have enough sense not to shoot at a criminal who has a hostage as a human shield.

Unless the criminal is using the hostage as a shield and is shooting at the cops or people at the time.

Even rookie cops know, that they might have to take out the hostage to get the perp if it means lives saved.

[kane9321]

israel's gonna pay for this one..they've lost their minds

[War Lord]

Since you and your kin are quick to dismiss news reports from Al-Jazeera, Lebanon Daily, etc., I'm suppose to take a short, one paragraph update from Friends of Magen David Adom as the gospel truth?

Actually, it's been reported on my radio and I pulled that story from a CNN link.

[Danger Mouse]

Actually, it's been reported on my radio and I pulled that story from a CNN link.
Of course. How silly of me. The credible, unbiased western media.

[Mr Sparkle]

At least all they do is write, as opposed to Palestinean children, who strap themselves with explosives.

LOL, I'm sure that if the Palestinians had a comprable army to the Israeli Defense Force they'd only write pretty messages of death wishes and flowers for the Israelis. :)

but hey, these Israeli children only WISH that the bombs hit their targets and kill people, that's not wrong or anything.


right?

[Mr Sparkle]

The UN had no business being there.

In the future, perhaps Lebanon will think twice before allowing another terrorist group to function within its borders.

LOL, in the future, terrorist organizations will hand out leaflets that read "remember lebanon"when recruiting.:)

[War Lord]

Of course. How silly of me. The credible, unbiased western media.

Absolutely and totally unbiased.

[War Lord]

LOL, I'm sure that if the Palestinians had a comprable army to the Israeli Defense Force they'd only write pretty messages of death wishes and flowers for the Israelis. :)

but hey, these Israeli children only WISH that the bombs hit their targets and kill people, that's not wrong or anything.


right?

It's less harmful to wish harm on an enemy than to strap bombs on oneself and go harm an enemy.

[Mr Sparkle]

It's less harmful to wish harm on an enemy than to strap bombs on oneself and go harm an enemy.

no, they wish DEATH on an enemy, and like I said, I'm sure if the palestinian children had nifty Us supplied bombs they could relegate themselves to wishing death upon their enemies as well.

[War Lord]

LOL, in the future, terrorist organizations will hand out leaflets that read "remember lebanon"when recruiting.:)

They would do so anyway.

[War Lord]

no, they wish DEATH on an enemy, and like I said, I'm sure if the palestinian children had nifty Us supplied bombs they could relegate themselves to wishing death upon their enemies as well.

Why would Palestinean children have nifty US supplied bombs?

Can you get this stuff through mail order or something.

Can you loan me a couple of grand so I can get one for myself?

[Mr Sparkle]

Why would Palestinean children have nifty US supplied bombs?

Can you get this stuff through mail order or something.

Can you loan me a couple of grand so I can get one for myself?

that's my point afterall isn't it?:):up:

[Mr Sparkle]

They would do so anyway.

yeah, what's 450 dead civillians serves them right for having 2 soldiers in custody :up:

[War Lord]

that's my point afterall isn't it?:):up:

You still haven't said whether you'll loan me the money or not.

[War Lord]

yeah, what's 450 dead civillians serves them right for having 2 soldiers in custody :up:

Hezbollah seems to think so.

[Mr Sparkle]

You still haven't said whether you'll loan me the money or not.

I'll loan you money so you can get solar panels :mad::up:

[Mr Sparkle]

Hezbollah seems to think so.

and Israel seems to kill 450 civillians.

go fig

[Tangled Web]

There's battle lines being drawn, nobody's right, if everybody's wrong.

[War Lord]

and Israel seems to kill 450 civillians.

go fig

Seems to would be a correct word, because with Hezbollah not wearing identifiable uniforms, we really don't know how many of those civs really weren't civs.

[War Lord]

There's battle lines being drawn, nobody's right, if everybody's wrong.

I'm gonna whoop butt tonight.

[FlameHead]

Seems to would be a correct word, because with Hezbollah not wearing identifiable uniforms, we really don't know how many of those civs really weren't civs.

Women, Children and the elderly are not Hezbollah fighters.

[War Lord]

Women, Children and the elderly are not Hezbollah fighters.

some women might be, but we don't know how many of those 450 are women and children.

[The Overlord]

yeah, sorry :rolleyes: x billion

edit: I missed the awesome part where you called forbes.com "dubious"which leads me to belive that you're like 12 or something, so no biggie I guess.
anime June is funny. he, she or it. keeps saying, "where are the soldiers????" by the logic that if only Hezbolah had returned those 2 soldiers israel wouldn't have to kills hundreds unpon hundreds of civillians, yeah, good job on that logic :up: I like the bar story as well, simpletons always want to draw comparisons that ehy can relate to, too bad that situations tend to be complex and can't be easily reduced to the old, "where it's like we are in the bar see? LOL":rolley:
gamma ray is Insane, he saw a picture of a tank going up against a priest and he said it could've been anytything!!!! WTF?????? LOL
and the saddest [art is that these people think that well, "we must support terrorists, since we don't support israel"
see? they don't get that you have to be able to decry whenever a country oversteps it's bounds and hurts the innocent.

but hey.....blah!

Now your just acting rude, the point is you said it was a fact that the soldiers were captured in lebanon, but you can't say its a fact because there are contradictary reports as to the location of the capture. I never said it was fact that they were captured in Israel, I just said many news organizations reported that was the case. Your the one treating therories as if they were facts, therefore your being arrogant. As for why I find those sites dubious, Arabic and Chinese state media are hardly pargons of objectivity, one site had Noam Chomsky commenting on the stituation, that's as objective as getting a neo con to comment on the crisis. The only odd thing is the right wing Frobes mag, saying the capture took place in Lebanon.
Again CBC and BBC are both fairly left wing media organization with no known pro Israeli agenda, why would they be lying?

[SentinelMind]

If you'll indulge me in a small moment of immaturity - HAHA OWN3D.

*cough* Ahem. Anti-semitism has had a long and prevalent history for over 2000 years. Israel is the official nation for the Jewish people, not only because Biblically they ruled it, but because the Jewish people are a race who, without Israel, would have no nation of their own. Jews live in Europe, Canada, Mexico, America, EVERYWHERE - but do they have an official nation? They do in Israel. Since it became official, Jews from all other countries have emigrated to Israel to make it their home - Jews from all over have participated in Israeli military service to show their support.


Just curious, but do you think every ethnic group and race should have their own country and a whole country to themselves? I found it interesting you point out that an ethnic group has successfully assimilated in other countries but then suggest that this as rational for them deserving their own country. Can every ethnic group make this claim now?


They allowed the Palestinians to stay - the Palestinians said 'no'. Too bad, so sad.

Who decides which nation belongs to whom? If it's force - then the Israelis have earned their nation a hundred times over. They have one of the most efficient military powers in the WORLD - they've been attacked hundreds of times by Arab nations, on their holy days, with surprise attacks, with long-range weapons, and EVERY TIME the Arabs lost. EVERY SINGLE DAMN TIME.

Good point, but I don't see the point of bragging about this when you receive military and financial support from the USA, how any country in that area can stand a chance.



If it's through diplomatic responsibility - then the Jews have earned Israel again. They have made every effort to be peaceful, and they've cut the Arabs more breaks then they deserve.

The Arab nations are the ones that should be brought to heal - if the Lebanese don't like getting attacked by Israel, then maybe they should stop voting for Hezbollah, supporting anti-semites, and start cutting Israel a frickin' break already. It's been SIXTY YEARS - just admit it, ISRAEL'S BETTER THAN YOU.

My country is better than your country rhetoric isn't going to solve the problem.

I agree with the point that land has been taken by many empires and countries through wars and back-hand deals, but to suggest one ethnic group deserves their own country and then say another ethnic group living in the area "needs to assimilate" doesn't make a whole lot sense to me. I think there needs to be effort to drop this "my people deserve our own country" rhetoric and create suggest serious diplomatic and government renovations and redistricting throughout the Isreal and Lebanon that can appease all parties. That's just my thoughts.

[Extromaniac]

Hezbollah is in their own right at retaliation. Israel really has overstepped their bounds, killing hundreds of civilian Lebanese. (I must strongly impress upon you all that Hezbollah is NOT the lebanese people.. and thus Israel has no right to attack government airports, blockade harbors, and utterwise be a ****ing war-mongering powerhungry state)

Hezbollah started with the raids.. but Israel didn't have the sense to pursue diplomatic means. Instead, they used this as another reason to go to war to fuel their own personal grudges in the region. Hell, they could've sidestepped this whole idiocy, yet they refuse to back down. People hate George Bush, but Israel is just as bad, if not worse. :o

[SentinelMind]

some women might be, but we don't know how many of those 450 are women and children.

Do you make excuses for everything? Why pretend that the actual number of women and children being killed would even change your opinion of the war. You know it won't. So why be disingenuous and pretend that it will? Furthermore, do you stand by your comment that you don't trust any Middle Eastern news source and only trust American news sources?

[kainedamo]

At least all they do is write, as opposed to Palestinean children, who strap themselves with explosives.

I think you'd have a VERY hard time finding any news stories where Palestinian children have strapped explosives to themselves.

Go on, that's your challange for today Jonty. Go find evidence of that happening.

[kainedamo]

You anti-semitic prick.


I'm not anti-semitic. I could call you anti-muslim but I'm not going to, depsite the fact that you seem to take joy in Israel killing so many people.

Why do you think I'm anti-semitic? That's not the first time you've called me that, and when I call you up on it you never say why you think I'm one.

[War Lord]

I think you'd have a VERY hard time finding any news stories where Palestinian children have strapped explosives to themselves.

Go on, that's your challange for today Jonty. Go find evidence of that happening.

Took me a whole two minutes. Remeber, this is the culture that you support over the evil Israelis.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archiv e\200403\FOR20040325e.html
http://www.atsnn.com/story/35571.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bomber

[War Lord]

Do you make excuses for everything? Why pretend that the actual number of women and children being killed would even change your opinion of the war. You know it won't. So why be disingenuous and pretend that it will? Furthermore, do you stand by your comment that you don't trust any Middle Eastern news source and only trust American news sources?

I can generally trust bonified Western news sources. They may not always be correct, but I can be reasonably self assured that they aren't putting out propaganda pieces.

Unfortunately, I can't have the same opinion about Middle Eastern news sources.

[kainedamo]

The first link is Islamic Jihad, extremists.

The second link says...

While such action is unjustifiable, he said it is motivated by "economic pressure more than nationalistic pressure." He charged that Israel bore "moral responsibility" for closing schools and preventing Palestinians from receiving work permits inside Israel.

For much of the last three and a half years, Israel has closed its borders to Palestinian workers and merchants in an effort to prevent the entry of terrorists.

Gonna look at the other links now.

[kainedamo]

I can generally trust bonified Western news sources. They may not always be correct, but I can be reasonably self assured that they aren't putting out propaganda pieces.

Unfortunately, I can't have the same opinion about Middle Eastern news sources.

Do you have any idea how many millions worldwide watch Al Jazeera?

[War Lord]

Hezbollah is in their own right at retaliation. Israel really has overstepped their bounds, killing hundreds of civilian Lebanese. (I must strongly impress upon you all that Hezbollah is NOT the lebanese people.. and thus Israel has no right to attack government airports, blockade harbors, and utterwise be a ****ing war-mongering powerhungry state)

Hezbollah started with the raids.. but Israel didn't have the sense to pursue diplomatic means. Instead, they used this as another reason to go to war to fuel their own personal grudges in the region. Hell, they could've sidestepped this whole idiocy, yet they refuse to back down. People hate George Bush, but Israel is just as bad, if not worse. :o

Attacking government facilities is what you do in war, it also helped keep the kidnapped soldiers in Lebanon hopefully. Since the government of Lebanon allowed Hezbollah to set up shop in their country, they can be viewed as responsible for the actions of Hezbollah as Hezbollah itself.

All Israel has ever gotten for restraint is more bloodshed.

[kainedamo]

Jonty's third link says "In a surprising, yet hopeful sign, the parents of the children expressed outrage that the Palestinian militant groups had taken to recruiting children for suicide attacks."

The fourth link is Wikipedia. And it has information which condradicts what Jonty is trying to say about the "evil" culture of Palestine.

[War Lord]

Do you have any idea how many millions worldwide watch Al Jazeera?

I don't care how many watch what, if I don't consider it reliable I'm not going to put much weight on it. Should I trust the Simpson's when Homer drink uranium without getting seriously ill, just because billions watch that show?

[War Lord]

Jonty's third link says "In a surprising, yet hopeful sign, the parents of the children expressed outrage that the Palestinian militant groups had taken to recruiting children for suicide attacks."

The fourth link is Wikipedia. And it has information which condradicts what Jonty is trying to say about the "evil" culture of Palestine.

The Palestinean miltant groups use children and now their running Palestine and you support this.

[kainedamo]

That's a rediculous comparison!

Have you ever even actually watched Al Jazeera? The few times I watched it I found it quite balanced.

[War Lord]

The first link is Islamic Jihad, extremists.

The second link says...

While such action is unjustifiable, he said it is motivated by "economic pressure more than nationalistic pressure." He charged that Israel bore "moral responsibility" for closing schools and preventing Palestinians from receiving work permits inside Israel.

For much of the last three and a half years, Israel has closed its borders to Palestinian workers and merchants in an effort to prevent the entry of terrorists.

Gonna look at the other links now.

Of course Israel is going to limit work permits to work inside Israel when the Palestineans were using their privilige of going inside Israel to blow themselves up and kill Israelis.

[kainedamo]

The Palestinean miltant groups use children and now their running Palestine and you support this.

I don't support extremists. The links that you show are extremists, like the Islamic Jihad.

I do support Palestinians that want to defend themselves and get a fair shot for themselves.

[War Lord]

That's a rediculous comparison!

Have you ever even actually watched Al Jazeera? The few times I watched it I found it quite balanced.

I'm not surprised that you might find it balanced and it probably is most times, except when it comes to Israel-Arab matters.

It's not even on my current cable level anyway.

[kainedamo]

Of course Israel is going to limit work permits to work inside Israel when the Palestineans were using their privilige of going inside Israel to blow themselves up and kill Israelis.

Blablablablablabla.

The fact is, the economy of Palestine has been crippled by Israel. And Israel severly limits the number of Palestinian workers allowed into Israel. Every worker is subject to humiliating checks before they get into Israel.

[kainedamo]

Don't you care that the public voted Hezbollah into seats in government? Does what the Lebanese people want mean nothing to you?

[Fred_Fury]

Lebanon getting wtfpwned

[kainedamo]

You're an idiot.

[Fred_Fury]

no, hezbolla are idiots for messing with israel. I mean, god damned, didnt they know they'd get an ass wupping?

[kainedamo]

You're an idiot because you're taking joy in the deaths of hundreds of people.

[cass]

Don't you care that the public voted Hezbollah into seats in government? Does what the Lebanese people want mean nothing to you?

Hmmm, another faction elected into government......the Nazis. Did what the German people want mean nothing to you? :(

[kainedamo]

....

You are so blind. Israel are acting like nazis in this case. They are far more comparable to Nazis.

You never answered my question. How the flying heck am I anti-semitic?

[cass]

Blablablablablabla.

The fact is, the economy of Palestine has been crippled by Israel. And Israel severly limits the number of Palestinian workers allowed into Israel. Every worker is subject to humiliating checks before they get into Israel.

Maybe if Palestinians didn't have an odd habit of running into cafes with explosive vests they wouldn't have to subject themselves to "humiliation".

[kainedamo]

When was the last suicide bombing? Answer me that.

This is the way I see it. The Palestinian economy has been strangled to death and it's because of the Israelis treating Gaza like a prison, among other things.

[cass]

....

You are so blind. Israel are acting like nazis in this case. They are far more comparable to Nazis.

You never answered my question. How the flying heck am I anti-semitic?

I'm blind? WTF. Your reponse to my logical conclusion of your bleeding heart "but they were elected!" is that I'm blind?

Every chance you get, you cut down Israel.

Even in the case of the fight against Hezbollah who you claim is nothing but militia. You're supposedly against extremists, but not Hezbollah, why? Certainly appears because they're killing Jews.

[kane9321]

israel = nazis
they sure are acting like them

[kainedamo]

And that is you're entire argument for me being anti-semitic? Every chance I get I cut down Israel and I support Hezbollah?

Israel are monsters. Not the people, mind you, but the government and military. They are monsters and they are every bit as evil as the nazis. Hezbollah have a rightous cause and are getting more and more support every day. Get Israelis the **** out of Lebanon.

[cass]

When was the last suicide bombing? Answer me that.



April 17, 2006, last suicide/homicide bombing.

[kainedamo]

Do you have a news article on that, Mr. I Like To Label People That Disagree?

[cass]

Do you have a news article on that, Mr. I Like To Label People That Disagree?

http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp

Here you go, Mr. They're not extremists, they're just militia, IRELAND! IRELAND! IRELAND!

[kainedamo]

The anti-defamation league???

[maxwell's demon]

AnimeJune, don't know if you caught it, but i responded to your post to me a few days ago.

[cass]

What was the point in asking the date of the last attack without following up, or have you the decency to realize you can't defend that attack?

[kainedamo]

I don't think attacks on civilians does diddily squat for the Palestinian cause in any case, sir.

Can you say the same thing about Israeli attacks on civilians? You seem to think it's justifiable, which is just disgusting.

[cass]

I don't think attacks on civilians does diddily squat for the Palestinian cause in any case, sir.

Can you say the same thing about Israeli attacks on civilians? You seem to think it's justifiable, which is just disgusting.

Israel isn't targeting civilians, they're targeting Hezbollah. Also Israel expresses remorse and regret for those lives lost, something that Palestinians and Hezbollah refuse to do.

[Gonking]

Israel is the reallly f***ing terrorist!.
37 childs killed yesterday and the f****ing United States government rejects a resolution in United Nations to condemn the attack of Israel!.
What a great f****ing world!.

[kainedamo]

We keep hearing the word "sorry" alot these days from Israel officials, don't we?

Here's something about the word "sorry". You say it when you intend to stop. Israel intends to keep going and killing more innocent people. And to say "they're not targetting civilians but Hezbollah" is pathetic. Again and again and again they kill loads of civilians, but hardly any Hezbollah. Either their intelligence is lousy (that's hard to swallow) or Israel just wants revenge and have an ulterior motive.

[kane9321]

F'n israel, and a big "f'n usa for not condeming isreal for thir lastest actions

[cass]

We keep hearing the word "sorry" alot these days from Israel officials, don't we?

Here's something about the word "sorry". You say it when you intend to stop. Israel intends to keep going and killing more innocent people. And to say "they're not targetting civilians but Hezbollah" is pathetic. Again and again and again they kill loads of civilians, but hardly any Hezbollah. Either their intelligence is lousy (that's hard to swallow) or Israel just wants revenge and have an ulterior motive.

Do you even watch/read the news?

And just how old are you?

[kainedamo]

I watch the news almost everyday. Today they were saying that Israel is giving the people of southern Lebanon 48 hours to leave. Great, everyone leave our homes so the nice Israelis can level them with bombs!! And haven't alot of the roads been bombed??

I'm 22 years old, what age are you?

[cass]

I watch the news almost everyday. Today they were saying that Israel is giving the people of southern Lebanon 48 hours to leave. Great, everyone leave our homes so the nice Israelis can level them with bombs!! And haven't alot of the roads been bombed??

I'm 22 years old, what age are you?

Just turned 30.

[kainedamo]

So I guess you're pretty set in your ways. Kinda depressing.

What would it take for you to stop supporting Israel?

[cass]

So I guess you're pretty set in your ways. Kinda depressing.

What would it take for you to stop supporting Israel?

For Israel to turn as bloodthirsty, unremorseful, and working to eliminate Arabs, in other words for it to turn into Hezbollah and Hamas.

[kainedamo]

But Hamas and Hezbollah haven't killed even a small fraction of the amount of civilians that Israel have killed. So doesn't that just mean that you're a bit dilluded and look at the whole situation through rose tinted glasses? Just because the US says Israel is in the right, just because they are a supposed democratic nation, doesn't mean they are in the right.

[maxwell's demon]

http://www.moiz.ca/coffin.htm

15 lebanese dead for each Israeli.
FIFTEEN TO ONE.

any remorse you say Israeli officials talk about, cass?
I'm sorry, but I agree with Kaine.
They seem like empty words to me.

[cass]

But Hamas and Hezbollah haven't killed even a small fraction of the amount of civilians that Israel have killed. So doesn't that just mean that you're a bit dilluded and look at the whole situation through rose tinted glasses? Just because the US says Israel is in the right, just because they are a supposed democratic nation, doesn't mean they are in the right.

Hamas and Hezbollah have continously launched attacks on Israel. This results in Israel firing back in defense. The terrorist groups then hide behind civilians, civilians die, the UN condemns, and bleeding hearts go "but they're killing civilians". They forget who start the hostilities and also forget the past. Too much concerned with "peace in our day", but not enough about peace for their children.
Hamas and Hezbollah may not have killed as many civilians, but not for a lack of trying. When a group hadan expressed goal of wiping a country off a map, you don't let the groups get anywhere near accomplishing that goal. Israel does what is necessary for survival.
If it wanted to actually be the blood thirsty savages you portray them as, they would nuke their enemies to kingdom come. It certainly has that ability. Instead they simply want the right to exist. And that means eliminating the targets who deny that right, where ever they may be.

[AnimeJune]

AnimeJune, don't know if you caught it, but i responded to your post to me a few days ago.I did - you made some very good points, and I wish more posters here was as reasonable and calm as you.

I think we all need to calm down here - we're all just people having a discussion. Kainedemo, Superman4ever and Flamehead aren't Anti-Semitic terrorist supporters - they are people who are genuinely horrified by the violence of Israel's retaliation. They see "9 dead Israeli soldiers versus 700 dead civilians? That ain't right". While it's not a position I particularly agree with, in isolation it's a reasonable opinion. As human beings, we all have to acknowledge that the damage done to Lebanon is horrible. Women and children are dead, and the Hezbollah don't seem much pacified by Israel's military smackdown.

However, War Lord, Maxwell's Demon, and I aren't aggressive demonic war mongers either. My position comes from taking Israel's long and bloody history with Anti-Semitic nations into account. I see this conflict as yet another attempt to recreate the Arab-Attacking-Israel cycle (to reiterate: 1. Arabs attack Israel. 2. Israel fights back, hard. 3. Arabs run crying to the UN. 4. Israel backs off at UN's request. 5. Arabs count it as a victory for their side. 6. Repeat as necessary.)

A ceasefire, in my opinion, would only halt the violence in the short-term, becauset the Hezbollah would only take it as a sign that Israel is giving up and fight again. I think something more permanent should be done to stop these constant attacks.

And that's what I think Israel is trying to do. In the newspapers I've read, Israel has said they're "saddened" by the deaths of civilians but they have no intention of halting their attack. Sixty years of giving up and conceding to the Arabs hasn't worked for them. Suicide bombers walk into synagogues and cafes and buses, and someone has been bombing Israel with rockets (so presumbly, there must be rocket launchers somewhere - and southern Lebanon has every right to be suspected of having some), and Israelis have had their homes destroyed during this crisis as well.

Put yourself into the Israeli mindset - "Peace hasn't worked, obeying the UN [not completely - thanks for pointing that out, Superman4ever], hasn't worked, conceding land hasn't worked. We're still being bombed." If you felt these options were closed to you, what alternative could you see for self-preservation? The Arabs don't just want Israel to stop bombing - they want Israel - and all the Jews living there - to be annihilated. The Israel aren't up against nations who are only greedy for Israel's land and resources, they are up against nations populated by people who will not be satisfied until all Jews are dead.

I think Israel has finally gotten tired of being a doormat - it's fighting back at those who have attacked them with full force. Pretty much: "If they want a war, we'll give them a war". The Hezbollah provoked them, and now they're reaping the whirlwind.

If the UN wants to stop the violence, I think they should start by arranging some long-term solution to the Arab emnity towards Israel. If Arab violence is controlled and prevented- I think it's a fairly decent assumption that Israeli violence will also lessen. I also believe that if Israel weren't always fending off attacks from Arabs, they would eventually become less paranoid and bigotted towards Palestinians and other Arabs who live in Israel.

I just read an article about an Israeli-Canadian of Palestinian descent who was arrested by Israeli forces for taking pictures for his vacation (the pictures were of an Israeli military compound - but once he was released, they gave him back his camera and his pictures). That he was wrongfully arrested is no question - but currently Israel is in a situation where if they aren't always on high alert, they get killed.

-So here's my opinion: I'm against an immediate ceasefire, because I think in the long-term it will only incite more violence.

HOWEVER - I'm also against undue Israeli aggression. While not unwarranted, it is excessive, but until they feel they are safe the Isaelis can't back down.

SO I THINK that the UN should try to come up with something more substantial than a measely ceasefire that the Arabs will be the first to defy anyways. Someone has to stop these Arab nations from bombing and terrorizing and picking on Israel. Repeatedly pulling Arabs out of fights with Israel that THEY STARTED IN THE FIRST PLACE will only encourage them to do it again.

-Also, superman4ever - I do believe that picture is taken out of context. Why? Because if the Israeli tank was really advancing towards the priest, would he really be waving at it as peacefully as he's doing in that picture? :)

I hope we can all be polite in this discussion, okay? No swearing, no name-calling, no insulting responses that don't contribute like "you're a lost cause" and "I won't bother arguing with you" that are simply to fill up space while one comes up with actual argument. Okay?'

We can all be friends here, can't we?

[Jolie_Desastre]

those kids had nothing to do with ****. i'm not saying i'm against hezbollah or for him. i'm just saying that he planned this for like 5 months. he planned it. he went through it. why condemn the lives of innocent children and then say they basically brought it on themselves? that's just sick

[cass]

We keep hearing the word "sorry" alot these days from Israel officials, don't we?

Here's something about the word "sorry". You say it when you intend to stop. Israel intends to keep going and killing more innocent people. And to say "they're not targetting civilians but Hezbollah" is pathetic. Again and again and again they kill loads of civilians, but hardly any Hezbollah. Either their intelligence is lousy (that's hard to swallow) or Israel just wants revenge and have an ulterior motive.

Pics of Hezbollah in residential areas:

http://http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

[maxwell's demon]

Pics of Hezbollah in residential areas:

http://http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html
The page cannot be displayed
The page you are looking for is currently unavailable. The Web site might be experiencing technical difficulties, or you may need to adjust your browser settings.


can you paste the story in, maybe?

[cass]

THIS is the picture that damns Hezbollah. It is one of several, smuggled from behind Lebanon's battle lines, showing that Hezbollah is waging war amid suburbia.

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.

The photographs, from the Christian area of Wadi Chahrour in the east of Beirut, were taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend.

They emerged as:

US President George Bush called for an international force to be sent to Lebanon.

ISRAEL called up another 30,000 reserve troops.

THE UN's humanitarian chief Jan Egeland called for a three-day truce to evacuate civilians and transport food and water into cut-off areas.

US SECRETARY of State Condoleezza Rice returned to the Middle East to push a UN resolution aimed at ending the 18-day war, and:

A PALESTINIAN militant group said it had kidnapped, killed and burned an Israeli settler in the West Bank.

The images include one of a group of men and youths preparing to fire an anti-aircraft gun metres from an apartment block with sheets hanging out on a balcony to dry.

Others show a militant with AK47 rifle guarding no-go zones after Israeli blitzes.

Another depicts the remnants of a Hezbollah Katyusha rocket in the middle of a residential block blown up in an Israeli air attack.

The Melbourne man who smuggled the shots out of Beirut and did not wish to be named said he was less than 400m from the block when it was obliterated.

"Hezbollah came in to launch their rockets, then within minutes the area was blasted by Israeli jets," he said.

"Until the Hezbollah fighters arrived, it had not been touched by the Israelis. Then it was totally devastated.

"It was carnage. Two innocent people died in that incident, but it was so lucky it was not more."

The release of the images comes as Hezbollah faces criticism for allegedly using innocent civilians as "human shields".

Mr Egeland blasted Hezbollah as "cowards" for operating among civilians.

"When I was in Lebanon, in the Hezbollah heartland, I said Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending in among women and children," he said.



http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/rocketbatstyle/0520079100.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/rocketbatstyle/0520079000.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/rocketbatstyle/0520078800.jpg

[AnimeJune]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/rocketbatstyle/0520079100.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/rocketbatstyle/0520079000.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/rocketbatstyle/0520078800.jpgVery nice.

It's also good that Hezbollah is at least receiving some of the blame for civilian deaths. Both Israel and Hezbollah are responsible for this crisis.

[kainedamo]

The guy in the bottom picture - I like his gun.

[cass]

The guy in the bottom picture - I like his gun.

.......:confused:

[AnimeJune]

The guy in the bottom picture - I like his gun.Care to elaborate?

[maxwell's demon]

i think its because it looks like megatron.

[kainedamo]

It just looks like a cool gun is all.

AnimeJune, you're not so bad. Read your post on the previous page. You have some good points. I think though, time is something that will ultimately show who is right. No point in hating each other just because we're on the opposite sides of a debate.

[maxwell's demon]

yeah anime, thanks for writing back. sometimes you start wondering what's falling on deaf ears around here. It can get discouraging. But overall i agree with you. And i'm totally aware that isolating the current conflict paints the Israelis in a less than flattering (and less than accurate) light.

so thanks.:up:

[cass]

It just looks like a cool gun is all.

AnimeJune, you're not so bad. Read your post on the previous page. You have some good points. I think though, time is something that will ultimately show who is right. No point in hating each other just because we're on the opposite sides of a debate.

I post pics proving Hezbollah hiding behind civilians, an idea which you scoffed at, and your response is "cool gun"? :confused:

[kainedamo]

They're not hiding behind civilians though. Are they holding civilians up in front of them and saying "shoot this dude instead"? No. Look, they're part of these communities. They don't just grow up from out of the ground, they probably LIVE in that community you posted pics of.

[cass]

They're not hiding behind civilians though. Are they holding civilians up in front of them and saying "shoot this dude instead"? No. Look, they're part of these communities. They don't just grow up from out of the ground, they probably LIVE in that community you posted pics of.

I think you just proved my argument there.

[maxwell's demon]

i don't know about that. but i can see why you'd feel he did.

[kainedamo]

???

Did I??

I really don't know what you expect Hezbollah to do. Do you want them to go out into the woods and live there?

[FlameHead]

I post pics proving Hezbollah hiding behind civilians, an idea which you scoffed at, and your response is "cool gun"? :confused:

Did you ever stop to think that these people are PROTECTING civilians, not hiding behind?

[cass]

???

Did I??

I really don't know what you expect Hezbollah to do. Do you want them to go out into the woods and live there?

If Hezbollah actually gave a damn about the Lebanese they would leave the villages in order to prevent casualties. Instead they remain, hiding behind them.

You've seen the pics showing Hezbollah firing from towns. Israel defends itself by firing back and actually targeting Hezbollah. Now there's not a damn reason to complain.

[cass]

Did you ever stop to think that these people are PROTECTING civilians, not hiding behind?

If that's their plan, they're doing a piss poor job.

[kainedamo]

What Flamehead said.

And why doesn't Israel just send in ground troops to shoot Hezbollah in the face??

[maxwell's demon]

If that's their plan, they're doing a piss poor job.
Israel is doing a worse job.

[AnimeJune]

If Hezbollah actually gave a damn about the Lebanese they would leave the villages in order to prevent casualties. Instead they remain, hiding behind them.

You've seen the pics showing Hezbollah firing from towns. Israel defends itself by firing back and actually targeting Hezbollah. Now there's not a damn reason to complain.I tend to agree with Cass on this one. Cool-looking guns are good and all, but they can't protect against the missiles Israel has been firing. Once they found out Israel was going long-range, why didn't they just high-tail it out of there?

Okay, so it would sort of give them way, but then that makes their choice to remain among civilians as much influenced by their needs to protect themselves (being "shielded" by the "humanity" of the "civilians", if you will) then by any need for efficiency. They are using the civilians as a shield, and that is deplorable. However, the Israeli caught their bluff and fired anyway.

[maxwell's demon]

well obviously they're both at fault. and they also know full well that the moment they DO leave, they're all dead. all of them. so yeah, its not total selflessness.

I think they were hoping some sense of humanity would compel the Israeli forces to stop the mindless shelling and come in to fight more mano-e-mano or something.

whatever, its macho chauvinistic chest preening on both sides, to some extent.

[Mr Sparkle]

Now your just acting rude, the point is you said it was a fact that the soldiers were captured in lebanon, but you can't say its a fact because there are contradictary reports as to the location of the capture. I never said it was fact that they were captured in Israel, I just said many news organizations reported that was the case. Your the one treating therories as if they were facts, therefore your being arrogant. As for why I find those sites dubious, Arabic and Chinese state media are hardly pargons of objectivity, one site had Noam Chomsky commenting on the stituation, that's as objective as getting a neo con to comment on the crisis. The only odd thing is the right wing Frobes mag, saying the capture took place in Lebanon.
Again CBC and BBC are both fairly left wing media organization with no known pro Israeli agenda, why would they be lying?

1.- no, you acted as if you held a monopoly on the truth because you could quote CBC over and over again, and completely dismissed my claims as being from "some guys website" don't be two faced now.

2.- yet western media outlets would be right?

3.- I love that last question, so conflicting reports right? why would they lie right? why would the people that reported the soldiers ambushed (because that was originally what they called it) said it was "near the border with Israel" just from logic, at first i thought, "the attack must've been in Lebanon, because if Israeli soldiers had been taken in israel they would say "near the border with lebanon" however, that aside, I have put forward a very credible theory of the conflicting information, however, it's just that, a theory.

as far as the soldiers being captured in Lebanon, I'll stick by that, because in the first hours when it happened, all reports I heard from media spoke of the Israelis being ambushed in lebanese Hezbolah controlled territory (which would justify 7 dead soldiers and 2 captures they would have to be somewhere where hezbolah has some advantage)

[AnimeJune]

What Flamehead said.

And why doesn't Israel just send in ground troops to shoot Hezbollah in the face?? It would still be hard - the Hezbollah are dressed in civilian clothing. All they'd have to do would be to scatter away from the big weapons once the Israeli's showed up, find someway to hide themselves in a mob of civilians, and it would be like finding a needle in a haystack.

Neither situation is ideal.

EDIT: But at the way Israel is doing it (with missles instead of soldiers) means less casualties for their side then if they actually sent troops in. The upside - fewer deaths for them.

The bad side: the hundreds of Lebanese dead compared to the fewer casualties for Israel means Israel ends up on the wrong side of a very big PR nightmare.

[The Overlord]

1.- no, you acted as if you held a monopoly on the truth because you could quote CBC over and over again, and completely dismissed my claims as being from "some guys website" don't be two faced now.

2.- yet western media outlets would be right?

3.- I love that last question, so conflicting reports right? why would they lie right? why would the people that reported the soldiers ambushed (because that was originally what they called it) said it was "near the border with Israel" just from logic, at first i thought, "the attack must've been in Lebanon, because if Israeli soldiers had been taken in israel they would say "near the border with lebanon" however, that aside, I have put forward a very credible theory of the conflicting information, however, it's just that, a theory.

as far as the soldiers being captured in Lebanon, I'll stick by that, because in the first hours when it happened, all reports I heard from media spoke of the Israelis being ambushed in lebanese Hezbolah controlled territory (which would justify 7 dead soldiers and 2 captures they would have to be somewhere where hezbolah has some advantage)

I never said that it was a fact that the soldiers were captured in Israel, however your the one who said that its weas the "truth: that the soldiers were captured in Lebanon.

Let me ask you something, if the position of was reserve and most major Western news organizations said that the soildiers were captured in Lebanon and say jonty posted a bunch of websites that said they were captured in israel and some of these websites seemed to have right wing bias, which story would you believe?

[Mr Sparkle]

It would still be hard - the Hezbollah are dressed in civilian clothing. All they'd have to do would be to scatter away from the big weapons once the Israeli's showed up, find someway to hide themselves in a mob of civilians, and it would be like finding a needle in a haystack.

Neither situation is ideal.

EDIT: But at the way Israel is doing it (with missles instead of soldiers) means less casualties for their side then if they actually sent troops in. The upside - fewer deaths for them.

The bad side: the hundreds of Lebanese dead compared to the fewer casualties for Israel means Israel ends up on the wrong side of a very big PR nightmare.


actually, it seems by the photos that catching Hezbolah is pretty "easy" I mean, Israel supposedlt has Hezbolah pinpointed (as evidenced by their missile attacks) right? because other wise it would mean that Israel Is merely firing upon the areas where it believes that it might hit Hezbolah, regardless of how many civillians get it the way.
that's not bad PR it's inhumane. also, I fail to see how Hezbolah being in populated areas (where we all knew they were) prooves that they are "hiding" behind civillians, haven't they always been they ALWAYS been in populated areas???? I don't think they used to stand around in open field with big targets on their chests right? the pics that cass posted merely prove that Hezbolah is infact in lebanon, but we knew that anyway.
on a side note, Look at your sig, " I proudly support Israel" really?
look at mine? does it say I support Hezbolah? no. However, I will say this
when some kid gets his family blown up because they happened to live a few blaock from some "known hezbolah position" do you really think that he'll care that the Israelis are "very sorry" about killing his family and destroying his house? what about his "right to exist"? and his Family's
"right to exist"? what about when he learns that this was over 2 soldiers? yes that 700 civillians (and I'm being nice here) have died because Israeli lives are so much more precious that lebanese ones?
what If, (and this is merely a what if, since there's no complete proof either way, and for the sake of civility i'll agree to that) it later comes out that these 2 soldiers where infact grabbed on the lebanese side of the border?


what then?
is you sig going to be so bright and blue?
I hope it's not.

[Mr Sparkle]

I never said that it was a fact that the soldiers were captured in Israel, however your the one who said that its weas the "truth: that the soldiers were captured in Lebanon.

Let me ask you something, if the position of was reserve and most major Western news organizations said that the soildiers were captured in Lebanon and say jonty posted a bunch of websites that said they were captured in israel and some of these websites seemed to have right wing bias, which story would you believe?


I said it was the truth, based on the fact that, like I have said a hundred times already, the initial reports (from all sorts of media here In Mexico, which is not notably pro-hezbolah) said that the Israeli soldiers had been Ambushed in Lebanon (near the Israel Border) which made a lot of sense, as you have seen pictures of Hezbolah, and they're pretty "civillian" looking. and the thought that Israel's army could be ambushed in Israel still seems reallllllllly far fetched to me.
and you never, never gave any credence to my claims, you kept going on and on about how voltaire.net and every link (forbes.com goddamnit) didn't look like "objective" newsource, in fact I believe you called my link "biased" after you had claimed not to understand it :confused:
I'd still like to know how Forbes.com has a "anti-israel slant" so Ican best answer your question.

[The Overlord]

Look, all this arguing about who is right and who is wrong is ultimately irrelevant, the best thing to do is try and devolp a solution. A cease fire would be nice in the short term, but in the long term it will ultimately be futile, it will not address the underlying causes of this war.The best solution is come up with a compromise. After a cease fire is reached, an international force (NATO, UN, whatever) should be used to establish a buffer between Israel and Lebanon (perhaps mainly made up of Turks, their part of NATO and are muslims). This force will take over security for the Israeli/Lebanon border, they will keep Hezbollah out of the southern region and will keep any Israeli military personel out of Lebanon. So while Hezbollah won't be disarmed perhaps, it will be unable to attack Israel, at least after the force establishes itself in the region and the Lebanese will not have to worry about another Israeli invasion.

[FlameHead]

If that's their plan, they're doing a piss poor job.

Well, that may have sometime to do with the fact that a machine gun does little against several hundred bunker busting, lazer guided bombs each day.

[cass]

Well, that may have sometime to do with the fact that a machine gun does little against several hundred bunker busting, lazer guided bombs each day.

Take it that you didn't hear about the 150+ rockets fired into Israel yesterday.

Hezbollah has more than machine guns.

[FlameHead]

Look, all this arguing about who is right and who is wrong is ultimately irrelevant, the best thing to do is try and devolp a solution. A cease fire would be nice in the short term, but in the long term it will ultimately be futile, it will not address the underlying causes of this war.The best solution is come up with a compromise. After a cease fire is reached, an international force (NATO, UN, whatever) should be used to establish a buffer between Israel and Lebanon (perhaps mainly made up of Turks, their part of NATO and are muslims). This force will take over security for the Israeli/Lebanon border, they will keep Hezbollah out of the southern region and will keep any Israeli military personel out of Lebanon. So while Hezbollah won't be disarmed perhaps, it will be unable to attack Israel, at least after the force establishes itself in the region and the Lebanese will not have to worry about another Israeli invasion.

That's all well in good but, it doesn't really solve the problem with the fact that the US has supplied all Israel's weapons. I mean, don't you guys think things would be extreamly different if that wasn't happened? Don't you think the rest of the Middle East wouldn't be so up tight if they didn't have the worlds 4th largest army sitting on it's doorstep, which was created, funded and supplied by another Country.

[FlameHead]

Take it that you didn't hear about the 150+ rockets fired into Israel yesterday.

Hezbollah has more than machine guns.

Dance, Dance, Dance. You really never add anything to a conversation.

[cass]

Dance, Dance, Dance. You really never add anything to a conversation.

lol

You never cease to amaze me. Watch out for George Bush, he's right behind you!

[Mr Sparkle]

Look, all this arguing about who is right and who is wrong is ultimately irrelevant, the best thing to do is try and devolp a solution. A cease fire would be nice in the short term, but in the long term it will ultimately be futile, it will not address the underlying causes of this war.The best solution is come up with a compromise. After a cease fire is reached, an international force (NATO, UN, whatever) should be used to establish a buffer between Israel and Lebanon (perhaps mainly made up of Turks, their part of NATO and are muslims). This force will take over security for the Israeli/Lebanon border, they will keep Hezbollah out of the southern region and will keep any Israeli military personel out of Lebanon. So while Hezbollah won't be disarmed perhaps, it will be unable to attack Israel, at least after the force establishes itself in the region and the Lebanese will not have to worry about another Israeli invasion.

I think that being abe to recognize that this isn't some poor country being bullied by it's evil neighbours is quite relevant.
however, I like your solution, sort of.

[FlameHead]

lol

You never cease to amaze me. Watch out for George Bush, he's right behind you!

And he's about to give me a massage like he did the German Chancellor...

[cass]

And he's about to give me a massage like he did the German Chancellor...

...lucky.

[The Overlord]

That's all well in good but, it doesn't really solve the problem with the fact that the US has supplied all Israel's weapons. I mean, don't you guys think things would be extreamly different if that wasn't happened? Don't you think the rest of the Middle East wouldn't be so up tight if they didn't have the worlds 4th largest army sitting on it's doorstep, which was created, funded and supplied by another Country.

How would that contribute to a solution? If the US stopped arming Israel today, that won't change the fact they already have ton of advanced weapons of their own and could likely develop more on their own, whatever you say or do will that change that fact. Complaining about things that happened in the past is ultimately pointless. Not to mention whether or not the selling of weapons to Israel in the first place was a bad thing or not depends on perspective, where some people see arming Israel as supporting imperialism, others would see it as arming and protecting the only real democracy in that region. None of that is useful in regards to creating a real solution.

[FlameHead]

How would that contribute to a solution? If the US stopped arming Israel today, that won't change the fact they already have ton of advanced weapons of their own and could likely develop more on their own, whatever you say or do will that change that fact. Complaining about things that happened in the past is ultimately pointless. Not to mention whether or not the selling of weapons to Israel in the first place was a bad thing or not depends on perspective, where some people see arming Israel as supporting imperialism, others would see it as arming and protecting the only real democracy in that region. None of that is useful in regards to creating a real solution.

When you look at the world on a grander scale, the US providing weapons to the one country that's against pretty much every other country in the middle east, perspective is different.

The Middle East, which by judging the way Oil prices are, should be the richest place on earth but, unfortunatly, due to US (coalition) involvement, it's a complete mess and has been for a very long time. In fact, it was put that way to control the oil. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just sadly mistaken.

[The Overlord]

I think that being abe to recognize that this isn't some poor country being bullied by it's evil neighbours is quite relevant.
however, I like your solution, sort of.

Israel is not innocent, because no country is truly innocent, everyone on the world stage is guilty of something and no one can be truly trusted, countries are always up to something. But assigning blame doesn't fix the problem, so it is ultimately pointless.

[cass]

When you look at the world on a grander scale, the US providing weapons to the one country that's against pretty much every other country in the middle east, perspective is different.

One country against every other country? I think when the other countries want to wipe it off the map, it has to stand for itself.

[The Overlord]

When you look at the world on a grander scale, the US providing weapons to the one country that's against pretty much every other country in the middle east, perspective is different.

The Middle East, which by judging the way Oil prices are, should be the richest place on earth but, unfortunatly, due to US (coalition) involvement, it's a complete mess and has been for a very long time. In fact, it was put that way to control the oil. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just sadly mistaken.

That theory falls into the trap falls into the trap of Marxist materialist history(looking solely at material causing and ignoring other facors, psychological motives, etc.) Now of course the US' thrist for oil is a major factor for its involvement with the ME, how else can you can explain the US government's support for the Saudi Monarchy, a government that violates human rights, is a dictatorship and supports terrorism, However with Israel oil is not factor, in fact it would be easier for the US to get oil from the mE without Israel existing, look at the oil shortage of the 1970s, that came about because conflicts between Israel and the Arab states. The oil problem really doesn't have a lot to do with Israel, Israel causing friction between the Arab and the US, it would easier for the US to get oil out of the US without having Israel around.

No the reasons for the US' support for Israel is different, it is psychological and ideological. First many support Israel in the uS, because they believe the Jews deserve their own state after the Holocaust, second many in the uS see Israel as the region;s only democray and believe it should protect because of that and third, many fundamentalist chrsitians believe the Second comming can only occur when the Israel of ancient times is recreated and are lobbying the government to support Israel for that reason. Those 3 factors have have far more to do with the US' support of Israel, than oil does.

[Darkdd]

The only problem with moving Hezbollah further north is that they are potentially giving them alot more land,and people,to control.

[FlameHead]

That theory falls into the trap falls into the trap of Marxist materialist history(looking solely at material causing and ignoring other facors, psychological motives, etc.) Now of course the US' thrist for oil is a major factor for its involvement with the ME, how else can you can explain the US government's support for the Saudi Monarchy, a government that violates human rights, is a dictatorship and supports terrorism, However with Israel oil is not factor, in fact it would be easier for the US to get oil from the mE without Israel existing, look at the oil shortage of the 1970s, that came about because conflicts between Israel and the Arab states. The oil problem really doesn't have a lot to do with Israel, Israel causing friction between the Arab and the US, it would easier for the US to get oil out of the US without having Israel around.

No the reasons for the US' support for Israel is different, it is psychological and ideological. First many support Israel in the uS, because they believe the Jews deserve their own state after the Holocaust, second many in the uS see Israel as the region;s only democray and believe it should protect because of that and third, many fundamentalist chrsitians believe the Second comming can only occur when the Israel of ancient times is recreated and are lobbying the government to support Israel for that reason. Those 3 factors have have far more to do with the US' support of Israel, than oil does.

The US also supports China who has kiled more of thier own people than any other country on earth. It's in the Guiness Book of World Records. The US has awareded China with recognition as being a country to look up too... but, that's another story.

One has to stop and think about history. The middle east would be a much different place without US involvment, without inferring with the progress of their own countries. The CIA was successful in taking out an Iranian president, who was loved, at a crucial point when he was just about to nationalize thier oil. They have also successfully took out loved leaders in Guatemala, Chile and Cuba, all sparking outrage from the citizens resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocent people.

And they did this with False Flag Warfare, like 9/11 or the Riechstag building.

Then people wonder why the US is hated all around the world. Did anyone ever stop to think that these people are 'extremists' because of all the **** that they've faced in trying to live thier own lives?

Now, when you take all that into consideration, one should see Israel in a different light or at least see both sides of the coin. One has to consider the possibility that Isreals land is nothing more than an Army base used for easy access to the resources they want. One has to consider the possibility that this incredibly large army could be being controlled by those who supplied it. One has to consider the possibility that they'd use it to spark a brutal war against their neighbors to ignite the middle east into an all out war. One has to consider that this war could be used to get the US into IRAN and another long, long war.... unless of course they just drop a nuke on em.

Let's face it folks, in the grand scheme of things, we know **** about what's going on over there. Me, I'm looking at what's happening right now and can't help to think that something is off about all this. Way off.

[War Lord]

Don't you care that the public voted Hezbollah into seats in government? Does what the Lebanese people want mean nothing to you?

The Lebanese can have whomever they want in government, they have that freedom. They also have the freedom to accept the consequences of their actions.

Quite coincidental, I assure you, but every other democratic and free countries also have the freedom to respect the Lebanese's wishes and deliver any necessary consequences unto them.

[War Lord]

You're an idiot because you're taking joy in the deaths of hundreds of people.

I don't take jou in the deaths of hundreds of people, but when people as a society make stupid choices like allowing a terrorist group to function in their midst, then they have to accept the consequences of their actions.

[War Lord]

....

You are so blind. Israel are acting like nazis in this case. They are far more comparable to Nazis.

You never answered my question. How the flying heck am I anti-semitic?

You can be considered anti-Semitic because the only acceptable option for Israel in your opinion, is for Israel to take whatever other countries do to it on the chin, even if it means that Israel must be allowed to be destroyed as a consequence.

[War Lord]

those kids had nothing to do with ****. i'm not saying i'm against hezbollah or for him. i'm just saying that he planned this for like 5 months. he planned it. he went through it. why condemn the lives of innocent children and then say they basically brought it on themselves? that's just sick

Hezbollah has been planning this for the last 6 years, since Israel left Lebanon. They wouldn't have 12,000 missiles in their possession otherwise.

[War Lord]

Blablablablablabla.

The fact is, the economy of Palestine has been crippled by Israel. And Israel severly limits the number of Palestinian workers allowed into Israel. Every worker is subject to humiliating checks before they get into Israel.

Palestine crippled its own economy by tolerating terrorist groups in its midst, so Israel has to place limits upon which Palestineans can enter Israel because any one of them could be suicide bombers. The reason why every worker has to be subject to "humiliating checks" is because Israel doesn't know which ones have a bomb strapped to their chestes.

[War Lord]

When was the last suicide bombing? Answer me that.

This is the way I see it. The Palestinian economy has been strangled to death and it's because of the Israelis treating Gaza like a prison, among other things.

It's been awhile, thanks to the limits Israel puts on the Palestineans. If the Palestineans don't like the limits, than they are going to have to deal with the evil that is within their midst.

[War Lord]

I don't think attacks on civilians does diddily squat for the Palestinian cause in any case, sir.

Can you say the same thing about Israeli attacks on civilians? You seem to think it's justifiable, which is just disgusting.

Well, it's been a while since Hamas has attacked Israel, so yeah I can say it does good for Israel.

[War Lord]

We keep hearing the word "sorry" alot these days from Israel officials, don't we?

Here's something about the word "sorry". You say it when you intend to stop. Israel intends to keep going and killing more innocent people. And to say "they're not targetting civilians but Hezbollah" is pathetic. Again and again and again they kill loads of civilians, but hardly any Hezbollah. Either their intelligence is lousy (that's hard to swallow) or Israel just wants revenge and have an ulterior motive.

There's a very simple way to stop this, get Hezzbollah to stop attacking Israeli civilians and there will be peace that breaks out all over.

But you don't really want that. You just want Israel to stop defending itself and have it's citizens dead, dead, dead.

[War Lord]

I watch the news almost everyday. Today they were saying that Israel is giving the people of southern Lebanon 48 hours to leave. Great, everyone leave our homes so the nice Israelis can level them with bombs!! And haven't alot of the roads been bombed??

I'm 22 years old, what age are you?

The reason why Israel targets houses is that is where Hezbollah has been storing their weapons. If you can convince Hezbollah to put their weapons in a central depository, Israel will stop destroying homes.

[War Lord]

So I guess you're pretty set in your ways. Kinda depressing.

What would it take for you to stop supporting Israel?

I personally will never stop supporting another democracy that respects human rights.

[War Lord]

But Hamas and Hezbollah haven't killed even a small fraction of the amount of civilians that Israel have killed. So doesn't that just mean that you're a bit dilluded and look at the whole situation through rose tinted glasses? Just because the US says Israel is in the right, just because they are a supposed democratic nation, doesn't mean they are in the right.

It's not for lack of trying that Hamas and Hezbollah haven't killed more Israeli civilians. It's their own lack of competence and Israeli's bomb shelters that have prevented more deaths.

But Hezbollah would rejoice if they killed hundreds of Israelis.

[War Lord]

What Flamehead said.

And why doesn't Israel just send in ground troops to shoot Hezbollah in the face??

They're doing that too, but to do that without air support is a poor strategic policy if you're trying to win a war, because your enemy is not owed any advantage.

[War Lord]

Israel is not innocent, because no country is truly innocent, everyone on the world stage is guilty of something and no one can be truly trusted, countries are always up to something. But assigning blame doesn't fix the problem, so it is ultimately pointless.

It is human nature to make mistakes. However, there is a big difference between making errors (wrong coordinates, mistaken targets) and deliberately targetting civilians or hiding among them and not differentiating oneself from them.

[AnimeJune]

When you look at the world on a grander scale, the US providing weapons to the one country that's against pretty much every other country in the middle east, perspective is different. I don't know - seen from another angle it looks like it's giving Israel a means to defend itself. If one country is surrounded by other countries that mean it very real harm, arming it seems more suited to self-preservation than as a means to set a proxy army against the nations the US supposedly wants to exploit for oil. Even with weapons, one nation can hardly afford to launch itself against more than one nation.

Mr Sparkle - I have read your sig, and it's very funny. :) I don't take the bombardment of Lebanon as the result of just two soldiers kidnappings. I don't think we can afford to look at it as an isolated incident. As I've said before - there's never only one reason for a conflict to start. The Civil War wasn't all about slaves. World War I wasn't all over the assassination of Franz Ferdinand.

I'm looking at this from the perspective of sixty years of persecution that Israel has received from Arab countries. Read my previous posts about how the Arabs "do business" with Israel and explain how one little ceasefire will do either any good.

Israel's set leaflets and messages to evacuate areas about to be bombed. The answer to that has been "so what? These are poor villagers, and the roads are gone". That is a sad truth - but at least the Israelis are trying. Can you name a time when the Arabs did the Jews a similiar courtesy?

Kainedemo, you say that Israelis are the real terrorists in this situation - can you name any other terrorist organization that has performed such a courtesy to the people they were about the bomb?

Israel is performing acts of war, with the inevitable tragic results for the Lebanese side, but at least they are making the effort to avoid simple callous slaughter.

[Jolie_Desastre]

Hezbollah has been planning this for the last 6 years, since Israel left Lebanon. They wouldn't have 12,000 missiles in their possession otherwise.

the thing is he planned it yes. but to say that the people brought it on themselves? the kids sure as hell didn't. most of the people don't have the authority to do so. and guess what? most of them are dead. they only killed like what 3 hezbollah men? and 340 civilians.

[The Overlord]

It is human nature to make mistakes. However, there is a big difference between making errors (wrong coordinates, mistaken targets) and deliberately targetting civilians or hiding among them and not differentiating oneself from them.

Let's not be naive, Israel has done bad things past, like almost every country has at one point or another and not all of them were accidents.

[FlameHead]

It is human nature to make mistakes. However, there is a big difference between making errors (wrong coordinates, mistaken targets) and deliberately targetting civilians or hiding among them and not differentiating oneself from them.

How do you make a mistake using lazer and satalite guided weopans which use a drove for it's targeting system and is accurate to inch? How do you make a mistake and kill 4 UN observers who were at a UN OBSERVATION POST using these weopons.

You're logic is flawed and furthermore, I have no idea how you sleep at night.

[AnimeJune]

How do you make a mistake using lazer and satalite guided weopans which use a drove for it's targeting system and is accurate to inch? How do you make a mistake and kill 4 UN observers who were at a UN OBSERVATION POST using these weopons.

You're logic is flawed and furthermore, I have no idea how you sleep at night.Hey hey hey...c'mon - we're all geeks at our computers. Let's keep this discussion amiable, shall we? Keep the accusations to ourselves.

[War Lord]

the thing is he planned it yes. but to say that the people brought it on themselves? the kids sure as hell didn't. most of the people don't have the authority to do so. and guess what? most of them are dead. they only killed like what 3 hezbollah men? and 340 civilians.

Until they parsed the numbers, we don't know how many of them are Hezbollah and civilians and we'll probably never know for sure, thanks to Hezbollah's policy of not wearing identifiable uniforms.

Anytime, over the last 6 years, the Lebanese government could have asked the international community to help remove Hezbollah from their midst and most of the international community would have been happy to send whatever was necessary to help Lebanon remove this cancer from their midst.

But they chose not to and are now paying the consequences for that choice.

[War Lord]

Let's not be naive, Israel has done bad things past, like almost every country has at one point or another and not all of them were accidents.

No country has been perfect, but Israel has done what it needs to to survive.

[War Lord]

How do you make a mistake using lazer and satalite guided weopans which use a drove for it's targeting system and is accurate to inch? How do you make a mistake and kill 4 UN observers who were at a UN OBSERVATION POST using these weopons.

You're logic is flawed and furthermore, I have no idea how you sleep at night.

Simple, Hezbollah made it a target by staying close to it.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50

I sleep on my back and very well, thank you. How do you sleep under the shadow of Harper?

[Jolie_Desastre]

Until they parsed the numbers, we don't know how many of them are Hezbollah and civilians and we'll probably never know for sure, thanks to Hezbollah's policy of not wearing identifiable uniforms.

Anytime, over the last 6 years, the Lebanese government could have asked the international community to help remove Hezbollah from their midst and most of the international community would have been happy to send whatever was necessary to help Lebanon remove this cancer from their midst.

But they chose not to and are now paying the consequences for that choice.

those kids don't deserve it:(

[War Lord]

those kids don't deserve it:(

No they don't, which is why every other country out there separates military personnel from civilians so the civilians suffer minimal casualties.

[squeekness]

Nobody ever deserves to die in any war. I am sure there are some very nice Hezbollah people just as there are very nice Jewish people. War is ugly no matter where it happens and the ones who always pay the highest price are the civilians on the sidelines. I'm sure plenty of people who were killed by us in Iraq were just ordinary folks, too. Sooner hopefully rather than later someone out there will realize that the human cost of war is too high to engage in it lightly and some of this stuidity can stop.

[kainedamo]

You mention the Iraq war and say "hopefully someone out there will realise", but it was the Americans decision to go to war with Iraq. It's Americans that need to know the price is too high.

[Jolie_Desastre]

**** war :(

[War Lord]

**** war :(

Nobody likes it.

[Comicfilmer]

I support Israel.

[War Lord]

I support Israel.

Kainedamo thinks your a biastard.

[Mr Sparkle]

Mr Sparkle - I have read your sig, and it's very funny. :) I don't take the bombardment of Lebanon as the result of just two soldiers kidnappings. I don't think we can afford to look at it as an isolated incident. As I've said before - there's never only one reason for a conflict to start. The Civil War wasn't all about slaves. World War I wasn't all over the assassination of Franz Ferdinand.

I'm looking at this from the perspective of sixty years of persecution that Israel has received from Arab countries. Read my previous posts about how the Arabs "do business" with Israel and explain how one little ceasefire will do either any good.

Israel's set leaflets and messages to evacuate areas about to be bombed. The answer to that has been "so what? These are poor villagers, and the roads are gone". That is a sad truth - but at least the Israelis are trying. Can you name a time when the Arabs did the Jews a similiar courtesy?




1.- well, actually, you're correct, this is not just about the two soldiers.
It is sort of coincidental that this began anew so near where Israel suffered one fo it's more mentionable defeats, seems almost convenient that now, it will Invade south lebanon (yet again), you're right, let's look at it in the the last sixty years.

has Israel not engaged in expansionism at the cost of arab lives, be it by demolition, forced displacement etc.? can you honestly say that the fruit of this is NOT going to be animosity? Israel should've been the most accomodating of all countries, yet it has always been protected and armed by the US, exaltong it's victimhood while demolishing all that stand in way of it's goal.
like the picture of the tank and the priest, I don't know about you, but he's waving alright, it's just not a friendly gesture. let's not forget that Israel has commited atrocities as well, and no one seems willing to make it accountable.

in these sixty years as evidenced by superman4ever's posts, the UN has ahd more than a bone to pick with Israels practices and I have also posted that the poor little country of Israel is anything but that.
you cannot slaughter people and not expect reactions, it's a simple fact, let's take this conflict for example.

Hezbolah is not the lebanese government, nor are they universally loved by the Lebanese people. yet, when hezbolah does something (depending where these soldiers are captured) the entire country pays, and this time, it's the Israeli governement not some fringe group that rains fire and brimstone of lebanon.

ISRAEL.

the lebanese are sent leaftlets to scatter, but their airports and roads are bombed (though Hezbolah has no air force) and an impossibly umbalanced fight begins, Israel is deceiving itself by thinking this will end, 700 lebanese people who all had families and whose life was valuable to many will not let that happen.
I know that many people who dodn't use to support Hezbolah, now do, and with the news of the capture on the Lebanese side, it sounds like Israel is the agressor, like your bar story, imagine the little guy walks up to the big guy, spits in his face and laugh , the big guy punches the little guy, and then the little guy pulls his gun out, and starts shooting at the big guy, who runs for a crowd.

does the little guy stop?
nope, he keeps firing picking off bystander after bystander, women, children, and then the big guy runs out of the bar and disappears into the night.

the little guy is left in a bar full of dead people, a man walks in a sees the carnage and the little guy shrugs and says.

"oops, sorry"

excuse me if I lack simpathy for this position.
besides, what where the Hezbolah negotiating for, women and children taken prisonner from refugee camps. this was hardly a threat to Israel. releasing women???? most of whom are being held with no charges anyway.
I'm sorry, like I have said before, I don't think any lebanese child, after losing his family in a bombing is going to think "well, the Israelis did drop those leaftets the other day, serves me right for not leaving"

and I don't either.

[AnimeJune]

1.- well, actually, you're correct, this is not just about the two soldiers.
It is sort of coincidental that this began anew so near where Israel suffered one fo it's more mentionable defeats, seems almost convenient that now, it will Invade south lebanon (yet again), you're right, let's look at it in the the last sixty years.

has Israel not engaged in expansionism at the cost of arab lives, be it by demolition, forced displacement etc.? can you honestly say that the fruit of this is NOT going to be animosity? Israel should've been the most accomodating of all countries, yet it has always been protected and armed by the US, exaltong it's victimhood while demolishing all that stand in way of it's goal.
like the picture of the tank and the priest, I don't know about you, but he's waving alright, it's just not a friendly gesture. let's not forget that Israel has commited atrocities as well, and no one seems willing to make it accountable.

in these sixty years as evidenced by superman4ever's posts, the UN has ahd more than a bone to pick with Israels practices and I have also posted that the poor little country of Israel is anything but that.
you cannot slaughter people and not expect reactions, it's a simple fact, let's take this conflict for example.

Hezbolah is not the lebanese government, nor are they universally loved by the Lebanese people. yet, when hezbolah does something (depending where these soldiers are captured) the entire country pays, and this time, it's the Israeli governement not some fringe group that rains fire and brimstone of lebanon.

ISRAEL.

the lebanese are sent leaftlets to scatter, but their airports and roads are bombed (though Hezbolah has no air force) and an impossibly umbalanced fight begins, Israel is deceiving itself by thinking this will end, 700 lebanese people who all had families and whose life was valuable to many will not let that happen.
I know that many people who dodn't use to support Hezbolah, now do, and with the news of the capture on the Lebanese side, it sounds like Israel is the agressor, like your bar story, imagine the little guy walks up to the big guy, spits in his face and laugh , the big guy punches the little guy, and then the little guy pulls his gun out, and starts shooting at the big guy, who runs for a crowd.

does the little guy stop?
nope, he keeps firing picking off bystander after bystander, women, children, and then the big guy runs out of the bar and disappears into the night.

the little guy is left in a bar full of dead people, a man walks in a sees the carnage and the little guy shrugs and says.

"oops, sorry"

excuse me if I lack simpathy for this position.
besides, what where the Hezbolah negotiating for, women and children taken prisonner from refugee camps. this was hardly a threat to Israel. releasing women???? most of whom are being held with no charges anyway.
I'm sorry, like I have said before, I don't think any lebanese child, after losing his family in a bombing is going to think "well, the Israelis did drop those leaftets the other day, serves me right for not leaving"

and I don't either.I don't expect the Lebanese to be suddenly like, "Oh! Wow! Israel is totally defending itself and we shouldn't be mad at it!" I expect them to realize that they should think twice before messing with Israel. The Hezbollahs were using guerilla warfare against Israel thinking that they could nibble away at Israel's morale and defenses, and could run to the UN anytime they wanted to make sure Israel didn't do too much damage in retaliate.

Well, I guess they poked Israel too many times. It's sad that Lebanon has to be the example that Israel's decided to set to tell people it's tired of repeated attacks, but I disagree with your opinion that Israel's supposed "claims of being a victim" are entirely false. It's not just Israel at stake when it comes to attacks made against it. It's also about Judaism.

The Jews have been ceaselessly persecuted for at least two thousand years. During the invasion of Jerusalem by Babylon, they were scattered to the winds. And during the Holocaust, they were hunted down and slaughtered. Israel is their holy land, their sanctuary, their one true safe haven. Imagine, for example, that Israel had been a peaceful country, relatively unbothered for sixty years. If two of their soldiers had been kidnapped - would they have resulted to such bloody methods? I honestly don't think so. Israel has a long and violent history with the surrounding Arabic nations.

And Israel is expansionist? Really? Because looking at how incredibly successful their army has been, I think Israel would have been a lot bigger if the Israelis had had conquering on their minds. They've actually conceded land - do you know that? If they've ever taken land, it's probably because the Arabs had been using it to send missiles and shells into Israel in the first place. And its goal - what is its goal, Mr Sparkle, that it's been destroying so many people to attain?

I don't think Israel is a weak country - far from it. I'm just saying - you can only kick the peaceful dog so many times before it bites you.

Both countries in this crisis are wrong, and I believe measures should be taken to ensure peace and to spare bloodshed - but my support and sympathy is with Israel, because it's motives are self-preservation, while Hezbollah's is the destruction of all Jews. I can't support people who want to wipe Jews off the map because of their unreasoning hatred.

EDIT: And I'd like to know what Israel's done to Lebanon that would fit with your interpretation of my bar metaphor that had Israel "spitting in the big guys face and laughing".

[FlameHead]

Hey hey hey...c'mon - we're all geeks at our computers. Let's keep this discussion amiable, shall we? Keep the accusations to ourselves.

You're absolutly correct. I apologize WL.

[Mr Sparkle]

I don't expect the Lebanese to be suddenly like, "Oh! Wow! Israel is totally defending itself and we shouldn't be mad at it!" I expect them to realize that they should think twice before messing with Israel. The Hezbollahs were using guerilla warfare against Israel thinking that they could nibble away at Israel's morale and defenses, and could run to the UN anytime they wanted to make sure Israel didn't do too much damage in retaliate.

but, and this is the main point here, the lebanese governement is NOT hezbolah. the lebanese DIDN'T mess with Israel. Israel IS NOT retaliating, it's killing civillians completely unrelated to the conflict.

Well, I guess they poked Israel too many times. It's sad that Lebanon has to be the example that Israel's decided to set to tell people it's tired of repeated attacks, but I disagree with your opinion that Israel's supposed "claims of being a victim" are entirely false. It's not just Israel at stake when it comes to attacks made against it. It's also about Judaism.

this has NOTHING to do with Judaism and everything to do with expasionism. the US is currently engaged in a "war on terror" (sic) and most of the people say that Islam is to blame.
is the war on terror (sic) about religion then? do US citizens hate Muslisms?

The Jews have been ceaselessly persecuted for at least two thousand years. During the invasion of Jerusalem by Babylon, they were scattered to the winds. And during the Holocaust, they were hunted down and slaughtered. Israel is their holy land, their sanctuary, their one true safe haven. Imagine, for example, that Israel had been a peaceful country, relatively unbothered for sixty years. If two of their soldiers had been kidnapped - would they have resulted to such bloody methods? I honestly don't think so. Israel has a long and violent history with the surrounding Arabic nations.

these examples would be fine and dandy if Lebanon where responsible.
it's not.
and Israel as shown by SUperman4ever is NOT a peaceful country.
do you really think Israel has been the victim here?

And Israel is expansionist? Really? Because looking at how incredibly successful their army has been, I think Israel would have been a lot bigger if the Israelis had had conquering on their minds. They've actually conceded land - do you know that? If they've ever taken land, it's probably because the Arabs had been using it to send missiles and shells into Israel in the first place. And its goal - what is its goal, Mr Sparkle, that it's been destroying so many people to attain?

hmmm, this is from another thread

"In May 2006, Israeli Prime Minister Olmert announced his plan to formalize Sharon's West Bank expansion programs, which were announced along with the "Gaza disengagement." Olmert chose the term "convergence" ("hitkansut") as a euphemism for annexation of valuable land and resources (including water) of the West Bank, programs designed to break the continually shrinking Palestinian areas into separated cantons, virtually isolated from one another and from whatever corner of Jerusalem will be left to Palestinians, all imprisoned as Israel takes over the Jordan valley and controls air space and any external access. In a stunning public relations triumph, Olmert won praise for his courage in "withdrawing" from the West Bank as he put the finishing touches on the project of destroying any hope for recognition of Palestinian national rights. We were enjoined to lament the "anguish" of the residents of scattered settlements that would be abandoned as they "converge" into the territories illegally annexed behind the cruel and illegal "Separation Wall." All of this proceeds, as usual, with a kindly nod from Washington, which is expected to fork up the billions of dollars needed to carry out the plans, though there are occasional admonitions that the destruction of Palestine should not be "unilateral": It would be preferable for President Mahmoud Abbas to sign a surrender declaration, in which case everything would be just fine.



The people of Gaza and the West Bank are supposed to observe all of this submissively, rotting in their virtual prisons. Otherwise they are sadistic terrorists.



The latest phase began on June 24, when the Israeli army kidnapped two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from their home in Gaza. They were "detained" according to brief notes in the British press. The U.S. media mostly preferred silence.4 They will presumably join the 9,000 other Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, 1,000 reportedly in prison without charges, hence kidnapped -- as were many of the rest, in that they were sentenced by Israeli courts, which are a disgrace, harshly condemned by legal commentators in Israel. Among them are hundreds of women and children, their numbers and fate of little interest. Also of little interest are Israel's secret prisons. The Israeli press reported that these have been "the entry gate to Israel for Lebanese, especially those who were suspected of membership in Hezbollah, who were transferred to the southern side of the border," some captured in battle in Lebanon, others "abducted at Israel's initiative" and sometimes held as hostages, with torture under interrogation. The secret Camp 1391, possibly one of several, was discovered accidentally in 2003, since forgotten."

dis you know that?

I don't think Israel is a weak country - far from it. I'm just saying - you can only kick the peaceful dog so many times before it bites you.

and Israel is not, a "peaceful dig" nor has it been "kicked" why must you insist in making Israel some poor victim???
what do lebanese civillians have to do with Hezbolah that they are to pay and be made an example?


Both countries in this crisis are wrong, and I believe measures should be taken to ensure peace and to spare bloodshed - but my support and sympathy is with Israel, because it's motives are self-preservation, while Hezbollah's is the destruction of all Jews. I can't support people who want to wipe Jews off the map because of their unreasoning hatred.

you are sorely misinformed about Hezbolah and it's motives, you should look into why it formed, you might surprised.
seems the only person with "unreasoning hatred" here, is you, you don't seem to really be at all familiar with the circumstances surrounding the creation of organizations like Hezbolah (that also ran schools and hospitals that where bombed for , you know, being tied to Hezbolah)

EDIT: And I'd like to know what Israel's done to Lebanon that would fit with your interpretation of my bar metaphor that had Israel "spitting in the big guys face and laughing".

you do know that Israel Invaded Lebanon in the past right?

[AnimeJune]

but, and this is the main point here, the lebanese governement is NOT hezbolah. Really? I thought this whole thread started because it turns out Hezbollah had seats in the Lebanese government, and that the Prime Minister was a Hezbollah supporter? the lebanese DIDN'T mess with Israel. Israel IS NOT retaliating, it's killing civillians completely unrelated to the conflict. Two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped IN LEBANON and, presumably, have been held prisoner in Lebanon ever since. Also - the Lebanese have rocket launchers which they have been using to bomb Israel.



this has NOTHING to do with Judaism and everything to do with expasionism. the US is currently engaged in a "war on terror" (sic) and most of the people say that Islam is to blame.
is the war on terror (sic) about religion then? do US citizens hate Muslisms? This genuinely confuses me - I'm sorry. Are you saying that Israel is fighting Lebanon because the US told it to? That Israel is fighting Lebanon because it's primarily Muslim? I don't get it.



these examples would be fine and dandy if Lebanon where responsible.
it's not.
and Israel as shown by SUperman4ever is NOT a peaceful country.
do you really think Israel has been the victim here? I meant peaceful in the sense that OTHER countries weren't attacking it. Think of the last three - or was it four - Arab-Iraeli wars. Are you saying Israel started all of those? Superman4ever showed what Israel was doing to tick off the UN, but he didn't post what the other Arab nations (Syria, "Palestine", etc. etc.) had been doing to Israel either. You can't take Israel's actions in a vacuum, just like you can't judge the war as starting only by the kidnappings of the two soldiers.

Israel has had conflict, but it's been getting conflict too for the last sixty years, so we really don't have the complete context for Israel's actions.



hmmm, this is from another thread

"In May 2006, Israeli Prime Minister Olmert announced his plan to formalize Sharon's West Bank expansion programs, which were announced along with the "Gaza disengagement." Olmert chose the term "convergence" ("hitkansut") as a euphemism for annexation of valuable land and resources (including water) of the West Bank, programs designed to break the continually shrinking Palestinian areas into separated cantons, virtually isolated from one another and from whatever corner of Jerusalem will be left to Palestinians, all imprisoned as Israel takes over the Jordan valley and controls air space and any external access. In a stunning public relations triumph, Olmert won praise for his courage in "withdrawing" from the West Bank as he put the finishing touches on the project of destroying any hope for recognition of Palestinian national rights. We were enjoined to lament the "anguish" of the residents of scattered settlements that would be abandoned as they "converge" into the territories illegally annexed behind the cruel and illegal "Separation Wall." All of this proceeds, as usual, with a kindly nod from Washington, which is expected to fork up the billions of dollars needed to carry out the plans, though there are occasional admonitions that the destruction of Palestine should not be "unilateral": It would be preferable for President Mahmoud Abbas to sign a surrender declaration, in which case everything would be just fine.



The people of Gaza and the West Bank are supposed to observe all of this submissively, rotting in their virtual prisons. Otherwise they are sadistic terrorists.



The latest phase began on June 24, when the Israeli army kidnapped two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from their home in Gaza. They were "detained" according to brief notes in the British press. The U.S. media mostly preferred silence.4 They will presumably join the 9,000 other Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, 1,000 reportedly in prison without charges, hence kidnapped -- as were many of the rest, in that they were sentenced by Israeli courts, which are a disgrace, harshly condemned by legal commentators in Israel. Among them are hundreds of women and children, their numbers and fate of little interest. Also of little interest are Israel's secret prisons. The Israeli press reported that these have been "the entry gate to Israel for Lebanese, especially those who were suspected of membership in Hezbollah, who were transferred to the southern side of the border," some captured in battle in Lebanon, others "abducted at Israel's initiative" and sometimes held as hostages, with torture under interrogation. The secret Camp 1391, possibly one of several, was discovered accidentally in 2003, since forgotten."

dis you know that?
While it's interesting to read about events from another viewpoint, that's just what it is - a viewpoint. Judging from its choice of words (and of quotation marks) it comes across as extremely biased and I'm not sure how seriously I can take it. I know that Israel isn't entirely clean in this situation.


and Israel is not, a "peaceful dig" nor has it been "kicked" why must you insist in making Israel some poor victim???
what do lebanese civillians have to do with Hezbolah that they are to pay and be made an example? I've been lax - give me a few minutes and I'll go and look up all the atrocities that Arab nations have performed against Israel. And to answer the second question - the Lebanese voted for two Hezbollah to be on the Lebanese government.




you are sorely misinformed about Hezbolah and it's motives, you should look into why it formed, you might surprised.
seems the only person with "unreasoning hatred" here, is you, you don't seem to really be at all familiar with the circumstances surrounding the creation of organizations like Hezbolah (that also ran schools and hospitals that where bombed for , you know, being tied to Hezbolah) Really - hmm, I wonder how much money that corporations owned by the Mafia put into charity. Hezbollah is not only a terrorist organization, it's also a POLITICAL PARTY and a social development program.

Hezbollah wanted Israel out of Lebanon, but once Israel, y'know, actually LEFT Lebanon (they started to do so in 1985 - hence, Hezbollah got what it wanted), Hezbollah didn't stop threatening Israel.



you do know that Israel Invaded Lebanon in the past right?Yes - in response to an assassination attempt made against their ambassador to the United Kingdom, and to artillery attacks made by the PLO - which was at the time, stationed IN LEBANON. So yeah, big ol' bad Israel, totally occupying Lebanon for NO REASON.

[Gonking]

I don't take jou in the deaths of hundreds of people, but when people as a society make stupid choices like allowing a terrorist group to function in their midst, then they have to accept the consequences of their actions.

With the same way of thinking I could say that if some iraqui terrorist kills thounsands of INNOCENT people in Uniteds States will be ok be cause as a society they are responsible for elect Bush.

War Lord, please don't be such a Jerk

[Hooligan32]

Dear Prime Minister Olmert,

In light of your people's escalating discomfort and continuing conflict with the Muslims, we at the newly formed Department of Foreign Land Security have been working around the clock in an attempt to find a solution to what we see as a possible, short term economic inconvenience to America. The thing is, missles aren't cheap to produce and, let's face it, thus far we've been cutting you a pretty good deal. The serfs, or "general public" if you want to get all P.C. about it, are becoming all antsy in the pantsy about us supplying you with arms. Though we're not accustomed to paying attention to their feeble cries, there is, as you know, a mid-term election coming up this November. After evaluating our situation it seemed as though we were going to have to increase the price of arms sold to your nation, fortunatly one of our interns came up with an alternative which we've dubbed "The bleached camel project". Based on our Guantanamo Bay research facility and Black Prisons in Iraq, we've developed a way for you to subdue your enemies with fewer arms. After studying FOX News, our primary source of intelligence, Chucky (our intern) was able to determine that the source of the Muslim people's fury is not years of mistreatment, nor religious in nature, nor territorial. It is infact derrived from frustration caused by their inability to concentrate on peace. It seems as though all Middle-Eastern Muslims simply suffer from CDD, or Concentration Deficit Disorder. As such, we've taken the liberty of drawing up blueprints for a number of compounds that can be cheaply operated by your military within the Middle-East. Once rounded up and placed into these compounds, the Muslims will be treated to a variety of fun activities that will help them learn to concentrate. Think of it as a kind of summer camp for concentration. What you decide to call these compounds is up to you.


Dr. Kevin N. Strangelove
Department of Foreign Land Security

[AnimeJune]

1948: Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, and Iraq attack the new state of Israel.

1967: Egypt blocks Israel's shipping along the Straits of Tiran, and sends soldiers past Israel's borders, removes UNICEF peacekeeping forces.

1970: Egypt attacks Israel again - starting the War of Attrition

1973: Egypt and Syria make a surprise attack on Israel during Yom Kipper - one of the holiest days in the Jewish calendar. Nice, guys, real classy.

1982: Israel occupies Lebanon in response to artillary attacks and assassation attempts, in an attempt to get rid of the PLO, who were living in Lebanon. Israel begins to remove itself from the occupation in 1985.

1987: the PLO, along with Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, incite violent uprisings with the Israelis along Gaza and the West Bank

2000: Second official Palestinian intifada ("shaking off" - ie uprising). While violence has died down, this uprising is still not considered to be officially over. Over a thousand Israelis were killed during this uprising.

This is to name but a few.

Also - you should all know that, at least since the '60s, all Arab states except for Egypt have maintained an official state of war with Israel.

[Hooligan32]

Dear Prime Minister Olmert,

In light of your people's escalating discomfort and continuing conflict with the Muslims, we at the newly formed Department of Foreign Land Security have been working around the clock in an attempt to find a solution to what we see as a possible, short term economic inconvenience to America. The thing is, missles aren't cheap to produce and, let's face it, thus far we've been cutting you a pretty good deal. The serfs, or "general public" if you want to get all P.C. about it, are becoming all antsy in the pantsy about us supplying you with arms. Though we're not accustomed to paying attention to their feeble cries, there is, as you know, a mid-term election coming up this November. After evaluating our situation it seemed as though we were going to have to increase the price of arms sold to your nation, fortunatly one of our interns came up with an alternative which we've dubbed "The bleached camel project". Based on our Guantanamo Bay research facility and Black Prisons in Iraq, we've developed a way for you to subdue your enemies with fewer arms. After studying FOX News, our primary source of intelligence, Chucky (our intern) was able to determine that the source of the Muslim people's fury is not years of mistreatment, nor religious in nature, nor territorial. It is infact derrived from frustration caused by their inability to concentrate on peace. It seems as though all Middle-Eastern Muslims simply suffer from CDD, or Concentration Deficit Disorder. As such, we've taken the liberty of drawing up blueprints for a number of compounds that can be cheaply operated by your military within the Middle-East. Once rounded up and placed into these compounds, the Muslims will be treated to a variety of fun activities that will help them learn to concentrate. Think of it as a kind of summer camp for concentration. What you decide to call these compounds is up to you.


Dr. Kevin N. Strangelove
Department of Foreign Land Security

[Mr Sparkle]

Really? I thought this whole thread started because it turns out Hezbollah had seats in the Lebanese government, and that the Prime Minister was a Hezbollah supporter?


Did you read how many seats they have?, why do you think that Israel is "sorry for civillian casualties" again, Hezbolah is not lebanon.


Two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped IN LEBANON and, presumably, have been held prisoner in Lebanon ever since. Also - the Lebanese have rocket launchers which they have been using to bomb Israel.

No, Hezbolah, which is in Lebanon, not the lebanese government. see?
big dif, that's why Lebanese soldiers have been told not to engage Israelis.



This genuinely confuses me - I'm sorry. Are you saying that Israel is fighting Lebanon because the US told it to? That Israel is fighting Lebanon because it's primarily Muslim? I don't get it.

actually this is what I'm saying " this has NOTHING to do with Judaism and everything to do with expasionism"

and the rest is meant as an example of how wars can be waged against an enemy regardless of religion.



I meant peaceful in the sense that OTHER countries weren't attacking it. Think of the last three - or was it four - Arab-Iraeli wars. Are you saying Israel started all of those? Superman4ever showed what Israel was doing to tick off the UN, but he didn't post what the other Arab nations (Syria, "Palestine", etc. etc.) had been doing to Israel either. You can't take Israel's actions in a vacuum, just like you can't judge the war as starting only by the kidnappings of the two soldiers.

Israel has had conflict, but it's been getting conflict too for the last sixty years, so we really don't have the complete context for Israel's actions.

Hmmm, actually we do. especially if they where deplored by the UN.
in the end, Israel begins to not sound as passive and submissive as you first painted them, long gone is the "peaceful dog" right?




While it's interesting to read about events from another viewpoint, that's just what it is - a viewpoint. Judging from its choice of words (and of quotation marks) it comes across as extremely biased and I'm not sure how seriously I can take it. I know that Israel isn't entirely clean in this situation.

how is the factual account of Israel's practices by a Jew no-less (chomsky) " a viewpoint" ? because you happen to disagree with it?


I've been lax - give me a few minutes and I'll go and look up all the atrocities that Arab nations have performed against Israel. And to answer the second question - the Lebanese voted for two Hezbollah to be on the Lebanese government.

so what? what if 2 hezbolah have seats out of like 120 seats available? how is that an attrocity?


Really - hmm, I wonder how much money that corporations owned by the Mafia put into charity. Hezbollah is not only a terrorist organization, it's also a POLITICAL PARTY and a social development program.

so then, you agree that bombing Hospitals and schools was wrong? so then you agree that perhaps people voted for Hezbolah because maybe they actually think that they do some good in lebanon?

Hezbollah wanted Israel out of Lebanon, but once Israel, y'know, actually LEFT Lebanon (they started to do so in 1985 - hence, Hezbollah got what it wanted), Hezbollah didn't stop threatening Israel.Yes - in response to an assassination attempt made against their ambassador to the United Kingdom, and to artillery attacks made by the PLO - which was at the time, stationed IN LEBANON. So yeah, big ol' bad Israel, totally occupying Lebanon for NO REASON.

hmmmm, how so? how did not stop threatening Israel?
so, If the US had a base in Saudi Arabia and attacked China, would then the chinese ahve an excuse to invade the Saudis?
yeah, poor Israel. it can never catch a break, it just wants to live in peace, take some land, separate some people and completely remove others, but yeah.

poor Israel.

[Motown Marvel]

i've been trying to pick up what i can in the news about this whole ordeal....and i havent really followed this thread, but: uh, whatever happened to that isreali soldier kid that was kidnapped by gaza which sparked this whole incident.

[Slipknot]

Nobody likes it.
You sure fooled me. :o

[Super Kal]

i find this really disturbing...

[vegeta21]

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of people.

[Mr Sparkle]

34 Children (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-07-30-mideast-violence_x.htm?csp=34) Among 57 Dead (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,206259,00.html) in Israeli Strike (http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2253746)



:down

[War Lord]

With the same way of thinking I could say that if some iraqui terrorist kills thounsands of INNOCENT people in Uniteds States will be ok be cause as a society they are responsible for elect Bush.

War Lord, please don't be such a Jerk

It's not the same.

Bush was duly elected to protect the United States. Hezbollah's purpose is to try and destroy the Israel and their being elected to office specifically means they also represent the Lebanon government. which means that in part, the Lebanese government is supportive of trying to destroy Israel.

[War Lord]

i've been trying to pick up what i can in the news about this whole ordeal....and i havent really followed this thread, but: uh, whatever happened to that isreali soldier kid that was kidnapped by gaza which sparked this whole incident.

They are probably dead and mutilated or at least very mutilated and wishing they were dead.

[War Lord]

You sure fooled me. :o

I've simply prioritized everything and am arguing for the highest priority, that being long term peace in the Mid-East.

[Superman4ever]

I've simply prioritized everything and am arguing for the highest priority, that being long term peace in the Mid-East.

Kill, kill, and kill now so that tomorrow you don't have to kill as many!

[Spider-Bite]

It's not the same.

Bush was duly elected to protect the United States. Hezbollah's purpose is to try and destroy the Israel and their being elected to office specifically means they also represent the Lebanon government. which means that in part, the Lebanese government is supportive of trying to destroy Israel.

the voters did not duly vote in favor of destroying Israel. those kidnapped soldiers were captured by Hezbollah's militia.

the funny thing is that Hezbollah has killed hundreds through terrorist attacks. any day now Israel will have killed more than that trying to get em. you'd think it was the lesser of two evils option, but maybe it isn't.

same thing for the U.S. 9/11 claimed a couple thousand lives, and in our due haste weve killed over 30,000 trying to get the people we thought were responsible. It's like what's the point? every time somebody kills somebody through war, the other country kills even more trying to get em.

I'm really starting to wonder how war ever solves anything. It looks like it just adds more fire to the flame. you might as well not even fight wars, because it's not like it's gonna end anything. these wars right now are all after effects from previous wars.

[squeekness]

I agree that war doesn't seem to accomplish anything, but the other side of that is that if you always give in to terrorist demands, that only encourages such acts to continue. It's a lose/lose situation. :(

[AnimeJune]

Some people seem to forget that Lebanon's been officially at war with Israel for the last twenty years, AT LEAST.

They shouldn't talk the talk if they can't walk the walk.

[Mr Sparkle]

Some people seem to forget that Lebanon's been officially at war with Israel for the last twenty years, AT LEAST.

They shouldn't talk the talk if they can't walk the walk.

oh, yeah, that makes total sense.
tell me about the last air raid on Israel by this mighty power called lebanon.
I'm sure that they must be evenly matched militarily right?
LOL, seems Israel is pretty war-like, except that the western world is "supporting" them (IE ignoring anything they do wrong, their attrocities and such) because "hey, they apologized, when did Hezbolah do that?"
:rolleyes: times a billion


from another thread:

34 Children (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-07-30-mideast-violence_x.htm?csp=34) Among 57 Dead (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,206259,00.html)in Israeli Strike (http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2253746)



:down

[Mr Sparkle]

I agree that war doesn't seem to accomplish anything, but the other side of that is that if you always give in to terrorist demands, that only encourages such acts to continue. It's a lose/lose situation. :(

perhaps, if Israel did not keep a thousand "prisioners" without charges.
perhaps If Israel did not Kidnap Lebanese civillians, and palestinians when It sees fit.
because in this conflict they have both become terrorists long ago, only one side is honest about it. the other hides behind a plea for a "right to exist" while they engage in attrocities that if comitted by any other country would have the US invading them momentarily (Iraq, I'm looking at you *points* :up: )

[raybia]

because in this conflict they have both become terrorists long ago, only one side is honest about it. the other hides behind a plea for a "right to exist" while they engage in attrocities that if comitted by any other country would have the US invading them momentarily (Iraq, I'm looking at you *points* :up: )

That is a very insightful observation Mr. Sparkle.

[raybia]

perhaps, if Israel did not keep a thousand "prisioners" without charges.


Jonty would say, "Where your proof?"

[maxwell's demon]

you two. give each other a hug. now.

[AnimeJune]

*Hugs Mr. Sparkle*

Maybe you're right - I'm sure those folks behind the Civil and the World Wars never starting fighting until they were sure both sides were evenly matched. ;)

[Mr Sparkle]

I keeeeeeeeeel him/her!!!!!! :mad:

[Mr Sparkle]

LOL, nice dodge there anime, see, you said something like
"Some people seem to forget that Lebanon's been officially at war with Israel for the last twenty years,"
and then I asked whe was the last time this mighty power called lebanon attacked the peaceful dog known as Israel.

no answer, but hey, what's 34 dead kids and 12 dead women out of 57 victims? oh yeah, 46.

I wonder how many of the remaining 9 where Hezbolah. I hope at least 9 of them, otherwise, well, **** :dwn

[War Lord]

Kill, kill, and kill now so that tomorrow you don't have to kill as many!

Exactly, because the alternative is to keep killing forever because half-assed efforts never work.

[War Lord]

Jonty would say, "Where your proof?"

and nobody's cited any reasonable proof.

[Mr Sparkle]

and nobody's cited any reasonable proof.

Of those, B'Tselem says 8,085 are held in civilian jails, 2,384 of them without charge. Some 645 are held under "administrative detention", without charge and often without knowledge of the suspicions against them. Among those in civil jails are 74 women and 265 under-18s. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5211930.stm)

22 of them were held without charge or trial or after expiry of their sentences. A further 140 Lebanese nationals were held without charge or trial in the part of South Lebanon occupied by Israel. Other political prisoners included more than 1,500 Palestinians sentenced after unfair trials in previous years. (http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aireport/ar99/mde15.htm)


"Human Rights Watch has previously noted with appreciation the efforts of the Committee against Torture to ensure that Israel honor its obligations under the Convention against Torture (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm), including the Committee's identification of a range of interrogation methods used by Israel which are both violations of article 16 and constitute torture as defined by article 1 of the Convention. Despite the Committee's repeated recommendations of concrete steps Israel should take to bring its law and practice into compliance, Israel has consistently disregarded these recommendations and continues to use torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment during interrogations of Palestinian detainees. The magnitude of Israel's violations of the Convention Against Torture is well known to the Committee, having been extensively documented by U.N. bodies (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu2/7/d/sp_com.isr/scimain.htm)and international (http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/countries/indx515.htm), Israeli and Palestinian human rights organizations (http://www.birzeit.edu/links/hr.html)." LINK (http://www.hrw.org/press98/may/isra0515.htm)

[squeekness]

Jonty would say, "Where your proof?"I've heard that about the prisoners on more than one TV news station including CNN. It probably is true.

[Cyma]

perhaps, if Israel did not keep a thousand "prisioners" without charges.
perhaps If Israel did not Kidnap Lebanese civillians, and palestinians when It sees fit.
You forgot to include 'massacre'.:bomb:

[Super_Ludacris]

Damn what is wrong with Isreal man? There really acting up

* Kill UN officials in a building when they know they were in there
* Attack a Lebonease village and kill 37 Children
* Call for a 2 day ceasfire and then Move there troops in by foot during there own ceasfire effectivley breaking there own rules


And I'm looking at the news on CNN and in London you got Jewish people protesting what Israel is doing. There own people dont respect what there doing so how could anyone?

[SentinelMind]

Damn what is wrong with Isreal man? There really acting up

* Kill UN officials in a building when they know they were in there
* Attack a Lebonease village and kill 37 Children
* Call for a 2 day ceasfire and then Move there troops in by foot during there own ceasfire effectivley breaking there own rules


And I'm looking at the news on CNN and in London you got Jewish people protesting what Israel is doing. There own people dont respect what there doing so how could anyone?

Actually, it was a 2-day airstrike ceasefire..they didn't cease all other forms of attack.......

But I agree this is getting out of control, it's really disgusting that every loss of life of Lebanon civilians is just brushed aside as "justified casualties" and that restraining their military even the slightest isn't justified. All you are doing is inciting more Hezbollah support.

[rodhulk]

In every group of people, you will usually/always have a couple that are the exception (with the news footage of some jewish people saying they are against what Israel is doing). That doesn't make it the whole. There are always casualties in war. The US and England (among others) are just as guilty (if you want to call it that) as Israel in killing civillians in recent times.

Why pick on Israel?

[Mr Sparkle]

"dood, you totally raped that chick :down"
"hey, there's been rapes before this one, why pick on me???"

:rolleyes:

[Super_Ludacris]

Dude, the whole reason why the international press (US, UK) is suprised as hell is how aggressive is Israel is at finding these 2 guys and yet for the past 19 days all the papers/TV all we've seen is dead/injured Lebenese children. That's why everyone is picking on Isarel. Hezbollah is just hiding in there and there bombing families and not the terrorist cult?
This is why this is such a big deal, even the US media which is normally pro-US/Isarel in Middle Eastern stories cant even spin these stories to show them in a postive light.

[rodhulk]

"dood, you totally raped that chick :down"
"hey, there's been rapes before this one, why pick on me???"

:rolleyes:You still don't understand anything! :o

All I'm saying is that if you pick on Israel, then pick on all or don't pick on any at all. :up:

[Super_Ludacris]

You still don't understand anything! :o

All I'm saying is that if you pick on Israel, then pick on all or don't pick on any at all. :up:

Why? This is the Isareli government's doing not Isarelis (Granted some Zionists are so bitter from years of bad blood with Palestine which they interpret as a religous war much like the fudamentalists on the other that they dont care, but thats wrong too). So many Jewish people in Europe for instance are divided or against what there doing.
Read some of the articles on the BBC or even any international press/media online or in your paper or TV.

[Mr Sparkle]

You still don't understand anything! :o

All I'm saying is that if you pick on Israel, then pick on all or don't pick on any at all. :up:

If by "pick on" you mean, point out when they're killing innocents for false motives and point out their 2 faced policies.

I have done with the US in the past, I have done with England, and even for my own country. :up::)

[rodhulk]

Dude, the whole reason why the international press (US, UK) is suprised as hell is how aggressive is Israel is at finding these 2 guys and yet for the past 19 days all the papers/TV all we've seen is dead/injured Lebenese children. That's why everyone is picking on Isarel. Hezbollah is just hiding in there and there bombing families and not the terrorist cult?
This is why this is such a big deal, even the US media which is normally pro-US/Isarel in Middle Eastern stories cant even spin these stories to show them in a postive light.You're missing what's really going on.

It's more than what you said.

Hezbollah has been arming themselves and in a strategic place to go at war with Israel in Lebanon. Israel is now taking action to avoid further attacks/kidnappings, just as the US did when they went to war in the middle east recently.

The Lebanese govt should not have allowed Hezbollah in their country. They should know the past with Israel and Hezbollah.

Israel has a right to defend itself and the press isn't saying they don't, they just don't like all the civillian casualties. But remember, the US has also caused alot of civillian casualties and it's unfortunate, but it happens.

Now, what about all the Israeli civillian deaths? Why aren't you saying anything about that?

Israel has no choice in doing what they are doing and yes, I hate the civillian casualties (on both sides), but just as with the US, they must continue to defend themselves so they can survive.

[rodhulk]

If by "pick on" you mean, point out when they're killing innocents for false motives and point out their 2 faced policies.

I have done with the US in the past, I have done with England, and even for my own country. :up::)Then when you mention Israel, you should mention Hezbollah and the Lebanes govt. They are all guilty of civillian deaths.

And....... are you Canadian too?

[Mr Sparkle]

Then when you mention Israel, you should mention Hezbollah and the Lebanes govt. They are all guilty of civillian deaths.

And....... are you Canadian too?

No, I'm not canadian.

Look back upon the thread, I have said repeatedly what I think of Hezbolah.
however, Hezbolah hasn't killed 700 civillians in the last week.